text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agd5kj$659$[email]...
LOL, I wondered when you'd get back to us and be astounded by the monster
you'd created!

the

I think he's projecting! I remember when I was near the end of my second
pregnancy, my husband was working two jobs (finishing things up at an old
job while working 40+ hours per week at the new one). One evening, he got
all over me for working too hard and being too stressed out. I said at the
time I thought *I* wasn't the one working too hard. He got mad at me. Now, 3
years later, he agrees he was projecting his own stress onto me (and also
that, because he *was* working so hard, he wanted *someone* to take it easy
and since it couldn't be him, it ought to be me <g>!).

repeat
actually
If I had been asking for my baby for 5 hours and not getting him, I
certainly *would* have been hysterical. I'm really glad you'll be delivering
at a different hospital this time, because I honestly believe that it was
more the hospital staff that sabotaged you than your husband. There's really
no good, logical reason for separating mothers and babies for any length of
time in the hospital. You don't solve security problems by keeping mothers
and babies apart; you solve them by having a system that ensures strangers
aren't wandering about the postpartum wards! And there's absolutely *no*
excuse, IMO, for keeping a baby in the nursery when the mother is up and
awake and asking for him. A 4-5 hour wait to get your baby is ridiculous,
clueless, and bordering on malfeasance.

I guess what I'm saying is that, while your husband may have made matters
worse by giving approval for bottles, the hospital's staff wouldn't have
felt the need or desire to do so if they had brought Craig to you in a
timely fashion and/or allowed *true* rooming-in. By comparison, the
hospitals at which I gave birth always allowed constant rooming-in (through
shift changes, whether mom was awake or asleep, etc.) and my babies were
rarely ever out of my sight. Under those circumstances, even if my husband
had told the nurses they could give my babies a bottle, I think the chances
are pretty good that it never would have happened.

So, on the scale of 1 to 10, what your husband did wrong was about a 2
(though not telling you about it for 13 months is more like a 4), but what
the hospital's staff did through its policies and procedures was about a 7.
I'd lay a lot more blame at their door than your husband's, since not only
were they more directly responsible for what happened, they were also much
more knowledgeable and educated than your husband and should have known
better than to give multiple bottles to a baby whose mother intends to
breastfeed.

I know how much you went through with Craig to try to keep breastfeeding, so
I really sympathize with your need to vent on this issue. I also *totally*
understand why it's hard to let go. I've said before that if I ever found
out I truly couldn't breastfeed one of my kids for any reason, I'd find it
devastating. I am just incredibly thankful that I was never undermined and
sabotaged in the way you were. But at least now you know what happened, and
it was a combination of factors that are highly unlikely to be repeated.
After all, if it had only been bottles in the hospital for two days, chances
are pretty good that you would have been able to establish a good nursing
relationship in spite of it. But that on top of *having* to give bottles
during the later hospitalization (though, if the hospital staff had had been
more supportive of breastfeeding, they would have used a finger-feeder
instead--yet another way in which medical personnel who should have known
better failed you) combined with a baby who may have been predisposed to
preferring bottle nipples was a recipe for disaster.

Hopefully, you can room-in more successfully with Gizmo. Beyond that, I'd
advise getting out of the hospital as soon as possible, especially if you
get a similar run-around when it comes to keeping your baby with you and/or
getting your baby when you want him. There's no law that says you *must*
stay two days in the hospital after a birth, only that your insurance must
pay for it. Our postpartum stays were 21 hours, 28 hours, and 17 hours
respectively, and all of 'em were too long for me! (Aurora's was extra long
because she missed rounds by half an hour due to her time of birth and so
had to wait 24 hours to be checked by the on-call pediatrician, and then
that was extended due to her heart murmur.)

Good luck, Victoria! You deserve it!


author: Bev Brandt

subject: Re: LONG (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH)

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message news:<agd5kj$659$[email]>...

You never know, do you? Heh...

I haven't followed your struggles. I do sympathize, though. I've
breastfed 3 babies at varying degrees of "success." My first being my
least "successful." (I put the word in quotes because I really don't
like using it. Breastfeeding is not a competition or a business
venture.)

My oldest didn't latch correctly at first. Wasn't feeding when I left
the hospital after 24 hours (the standard at the time.) He'd had a
difficult birth, was groggy and out of it and all of the textbook
things that make those first few days and eventually *months* of
breastfeeding a nightmare. Once I put bottle (of expressed milk) to
his mouth, he took off and seemed to prefer it.

One key. He roomed in with me the entire 24 hours. I know for a *fact*
that he never got a bottle of anything - sugar water, formula,
nuttin'. He was just a guy who wanted a *bottle.* In fact, he had a
lactation consultant that was wonderful. She helped us figure out that
ol' nursing thing and stood guard to make sure he didn't get any
bottles.

My youngest, on the other hand, got a bottle of formula right away
against BOTH my husband's and my wishes (the nurse claimed low blood
sugar and that she "had" to.) He nursed like a champ for a year. He
was even one of those who would hang in there all hungry and whatnot
all day at daycare (again, expressed milk,) waiting for "the real
deal."

I may be waaaay off base, and if so I apologize. But to me it seemed
that nursing needs, style, likes or dislikes had a lot more to do with
my babies than with me, whether or not they got bottles, environment,
etc. (My middle child nursed like a Hoover, too...) And it might just
be easier with subsequent babies - it certainly was with me.

Anyway, if what you're feeling is some sort of guilt or resentment or
if you're second-guessing yourself, please try not to. (I won't try to
address your husband's decisions or the decisions of the hospital
staff...I don't feel like I can.) Simply put; you cannot go back, only
forward.

Bev


author: Kate J

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message news:<agd5kj$659$[email]>...

I think that was the missing piece of information without which some
of us thought you were being a little harsh on your DH. If he kept
silent through extensive post hoc analyses when clearly what he did
was relevant to those analyses, well, I would be pissed too.

Hope he apologizes roundly and the troubled seas calm down... :)

Kate


author: Wendy Marsden

text:
Victoria Frerichs ([email]) wrote:

I think I'm the only one who used the word "divorce" and I was referring
to what HE would do if you don't honor him as a father and a partner and a
man.  It sounds like that isn't the case here.

By the way, I participate a lot on alt.support.marriage and my answer came
from that perspective more than the breastfeeding one.  (I nursed three
kids into toddlerhood, including pumping at work, so it's not like I'm
anti-breastfeeding or something!)

It's a separate issue, but in my three births I have never yet had anyone
pay ANY attention to my written birth plan, as well as written
instructions I made about the baby.  In two different hospitals with three
different medical practices.

My experience is that it is useful to have thought through options, but
what happens is what happens.  I had three VERY different births and one
plan would not have fit all.

Just to enumerate: the first was 3 days labor followed by a C-section, the
second was a totally natural VBAC and the third was a VBAC with an
epidural where I was hooked up to each and every device known to
man.  I truly wish I had been open to intervention with the first
birth: if I had used an epidural it would have made a big enough
difference that I could possibly have avoided the c-section.

-- Wendy


author: Nancy P.

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agd5kj$659$[email]...
Victoria,

I'm so sorry that you're hurting.  I also had problems with hospital staff
and rooming in which affected my milk supply.  Thankfully, all is well now.
Next time I won't let them intimidate me and will be more assertive.  I was
just so darn tired at the time, you know?

This thread is a great example of why I will hopefully never ever vent about
my DH on Usenet.  The situation twists and turns into what they're not.  I'm
sure your DH is wonderful, and your marriage is strong.  I hope things
become right between you soon.  Sometimes it really does feel good to vent
though.

Nancy


author: Michelle J. Haines

text:
In article <agd5kj$659$[email]>, [email]
says...

I think that this:

this:

and this:

Are definitely some prime ingredients for a breastfeeding beginning
disaster.  In face, it sounds more like your husband may have been
hysterical and not realizing it than you may have been.

IMO, poor decisions under these circumstances are pretty forgivable,
although it might take a while to get over.  I know it took some time
for me to get over it when my husband OK'd a bottle for our first
baby.

This right here is definitely the worst issue and the hardest to get
over.  I can KIND OF understand it if after he realized what a
mistake he had made, feeling guilty and wanting to not get in trouble
(well, ONLY kind of, because this kind of lying-by-omission thing has
been a big deal with my nephew and I'm pissed off about it a lot
lately), and is going to take some long talks and laying down the
law.

Also, is there any way you can go to a different hospital, that's
more baby  friendly?

*heh*  On a BBS, we have a women's only room, and often the topic
turns to complaining about our husbands' and their faults.  It's been
noted more than once that after a vent and all the other women in the
room going "*gasp* How AWFUL!!!  The SWINE!!!", that much of the time
the wife feels the need to defend him as not being THAT much of a
swing, but she was pissed off and so therefore some of the more
charitable details get left out.

*supportive hugs*

Michelle
Flutist


author: Jenrose

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agd5kj$659$[email]...
<snip for brevity>

When my sister was born, my mother was an overprotective goddess of a
mother.

She flat out refused to allow them to check my sister into the nursery at
all and left the hospital within 6 hours.

When my daughter was born, I followed mom's example and I refused to let her
go to the nursery except in my arms or her father's arms, and that was on
the condition that she be brought back immediately. The ONLY time I allowed
it was for the PKU, and I wouldn't repeat that.

If you are in the US, you have a right to go against medical advice for your
child to keep that child with you at all times.

If my partner betrayed me the way your partner betrayed you, I would be
furious, too. I dealt with a different set of betrayals postpartum, but
thankfullly NOT the one of having my child fed inappropriately.

Faced with what you're faced with right now, I would put it to him this way.

"I feel betrayed. I feel like one of the most important things for me was
undermined completely. I am terribly afraid that it will happen again, and
I'm having a hard time trusting that you will not do this again. This is a
problem for me, and we need to find a solution."

Not accusing, simply explaining to him your difficulty.

I would then hire someone, perhaps a student midwife or doula, to stay with
you in the hospital for a while each day. I would get a wheelchair and go
with the baby if they insisted on having the baby in the room for shift
changes. The way you explain this to the staff is this... "I understand that
you feel you need to have the baby in the nursery for shift changes.
Nevertheless, there are medical, nutritional and biological reasons I must
stay with the baby after the birth at all times, and if baby must be in the
nursery, so must I. If that is inconvenient to you, I would be happy to have
him in the room with me. But he will be with me."

To your husband, when you need to take a shower in the hospital,  you can
say, "I need you to hold the baby, but I need you to stay where I can see
you. I will not be upset as long as you are where I can see you, but if you
take him out of my sight, I *will* become hysterical. I promise. Once we are
home, that will not be a concern, but for as long as we are in the hospital,
I will not feel safe while you and the baby are out of my sight."

Let me be really clear about this... I think your hubby screwed up big time.
He may be a great guy, and you may have great communication, but even great
guys who communicate sometimes screw up. The consequence, the very natural
consequence of demonstrating unreliability in a critical task is that one is
no longer trusted with the critical task. And thus, you cannot trust him
with the critical task of protecting your baby in the hospital. At home,
sure. He's demonstrated his trustworthiness there. But not in the
postpartum. And with another baby due soon, I can just imagine how this is
an incredibly pressing issue for you.
Jen


author: Teh Te of Poopei

text:
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:58:38 -0400, "Victoria Frerichs"
<[email]> wrote:

So what does hubby have to say about all this?

Loev,

Ms Pants


author: Charlotte M.

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agd5kj$659$[email]...

  But

Thank *you*, Victoria. That was one of the nicest acknowledgements I have
had in a long time!

Charlotte, grinning toothily


author: Sarajoyo

text:
Victoria, you are certainly welcome for our encouragement, suggestions, etc.
I will be thinking of you and your DH and praying that you will be able to
work through this so that Gizmo's arrival is a happy occasion and not one
filled with anxiety and fear.

(((HUGS))) to all of you!


author: hamilton

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
In article <98PV8.307740$[email]>, "P.
Tierney" <[email]> wrote:

he KNEW how important it was to his wife to get BF started and that she
had insisted on no bottles -- AND he went behind her back to authorize the
destructive bottle feeding of his newborn.  It would be one thing if he
had insisted openly -- the fact that he undercut her suggests that his
heart wasn't in the right place, it was in a domineering, I'm boss,
patriarchal place where big Daddy gets to make all of the important
decisions because she is just a woman after all and what does she know
about being a mother

from her note, it is clear that it wasn't done inadvertantly or without
his awareness of her position -- and the fact that he lies, makes that
double clear What a total jerk


author: Jolene

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
[email] (Karen Askey) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I always say you can use it as a bribe, but never withhold it as a
punishment.  It was part of my mother-of-the-bride advice.  My
daughter got a good chuckle out of that.

Well, I'm off to Victoria's Secret.  I need some chores done around
the house. ;-)


subject: Re: Induced vs. Spontaneous Labor (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH)

text:
Being on heparin means an epidural is riskier and requires special
precautions. Many doctors prefer to not give the epidural at all if it can
be avoided with a mom who has been anticoagulated. IIRC, the newer heparin
is more problematic than the older heparin where epidurals are concerned,
but not where anything else is.

Jen
"Sara" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Circe

text:
"Sara" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
A low platelet count or spinal abnormality will prevent you from being able
to get an epidural. Don't know if those were the reasons Tess couldn't get
one, though.


author: Tess

text:
"Sara" <[email]> wrote :

I was taking heparin injections because of blood clots. They had me
stop the heparin the afternoon before induction, and expected my PTT
to return to normal in time to have an epidural, but things went
more quickly than expected, so it just didn't work out.


text:
"Jenrose" <[email]> wrote :
you
pain.
was
yelling
his
be
important.....
only
shots
only
her
two
injection I
the

I'm not sure what FVL is. I had 4 DVT in my left leg, which is why I
was taking heparin.


author: Kandace Wright

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Jolene" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<CdtW8.456529$cQ3.36796@sccrnsc01>...

Are you holding a grudge or something?  What is up with your rudeness
Jolene?  Did I do something wrong?

I'm sorry but your comment is sexist in my opinion.  I think it belittles
her feelings which are legitimate.  "Oh your hormonal you don't know what yo
u're talking about" is basically what I got from your post.

Also this is Usenet and when you comment you leave yourself open to comments
as well.  I picked out a part of your post that I wanted to discuss with
you/others because the comments in my opinion belittled a person's feelings.
Are you not grown up enough to debate and talk about things?

You mention I threw a tantrum, but I don't see that.  I calmly made a point.
I'm not even upset by it, it just caught my eye as a sexist comment.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that I'm older than you seem to
think.  I'm not sure why you brought up age at all.


author: Donna

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Aimee" <[email]> wrote in message
news:W3oW8.8161$[email]...
have.

Why does the father have to get permission from the mother for something
like this?  It's his baby too, and he has just as much authority to make
decisions.  It's his baby too.

Donna


author: Naomi

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Circe" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

And really, if you do the math, a baby eating about every 3 hours (entirely
common and normal for a young infant of any age)
WILL only eat twice during the night. (If you figure that baby has
his last 'evening' feeding at 10, at his first morning one at 7;
eating every 3 hours would mean two night feeds, one at around 1 a.m., and
one at around 4.)
Shaina NEVER ate more than twice during the night.

While rooming in is the norm, a few hospitals do require baby to be in
the nursery at night. (Safety/security issues. Somebody has to be able
to keep an eye on the baby, and if mom is asleep, she can't do that.)

Naomi


author: Sharon Fitzgerald

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Circe wrote:

Barbara,

How do hospitals protect against people coming in when the mother is
asleep and taking a baby?  My twins were in the (secure) NICU and so I
didn't have to think about this.  But if they were healthy and in my
room, I would have worried about someone coming in while I was asleep.

When one of my girls had to be hospitalized at 6 months for a
respiratory problem, I stayed with her the entire time (and kept the
other baby there in the hospital crib also!).  But I worried that
someone could come in when I was asleep.

sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Circe" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Just a word here: this varies from region to region.  At the hospital where
I gave birth to Brigitte, you could insist 'til the cows come home, but they
have their policy and will abide by it.

And just in case there is any question as to how important the rules are, I
questioned hospital policy all over the place. My reward for knowing what I
wanted and informed consent was a doctor who called social services.
Clearly, anyone who did not want to let the hospital staff offer the best
care possible for the babies *had* to be a potentially abusive mother.

Rooming in is normal in many places, but not all.  That said, I obviously
have no idea of the policy in Victoria's area.

You know it.

Charlotte


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
See, that's exactly how I feel about it, and I think that's what Victoria
was most upset about.  The formula, yeah, you get mad but get over it and
realize that the little guy turned out okay in spite of it, but the DH
covering it up - that would take me a LONG time to get over.  I think
Victoria has every right to feel angry and cheated by her DH.


author: Victoria Frerichs

text:
Kara Habel <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
you
luck!!

Thank you, Kara!  :)

Oh yes, please, let me give a bad recommendation to the old hospital.  I'll
let you know about the new one when I get done with it. :)

I know you're in Hyde Park, but I'm not all *that* familiar with the
Cincinnati area yet, so bear with me.  I'm not sure that you'd be going to
either of the hospitals I'm talking about if you or someone you knew were
having a baby (I'm sure you wouldnt go to the old one, actually, but I'm not
sure about the new one).

When we had Craig, we lived in Centerville, so when we researched the
hospitals there the best for L&D and M&B was supposed to be Kettering.
Miami Valley was supposedly bad for those things because it was mostly a
trauma hospital.  However, if I had it to do over again, I would choose
Miami Valley this time around.  Kettering said they would support all of the
things we were seeking, but in the end not only did things to sabotage our
nursing relationship, they almost *accidentally* c*rc'ed Craig, and they
kept him from me for long periods of time.  Also, anytime a mom paged her
nurse, she was mostly met with an exasperated "What do you want?" instead of
anything helpful.

This time, we've moved to West Chester, and will be birthing at Bethesda
North. Now I've heard only GOOD things about them, but then again, that's
what I'd heard about Kettering.  It does reassure me that all the midwives
in the area who do hospital births seem to choose BN, and that the doulas
I've spoken to have assured me that there are a lot of nursing staff there
who support NCB and the like...so we'll see.

HTH!

Victoria


text:
Circe ([email]) wrote:
<snip>

Okay, I've been trying not to say this, but is having a baby wean REALLY a
disaster?

Have you ANY idea how blessed you are to have troubles of this size?

I wish her luck, too, and I don't mean to say you can't ever vent unless
it's about genocide or something.  I'm sorry, though, it was just one post
too many about how horrible it was for her to not be successful at
breastfeeding.  Give yourself some time, Vic, and I assure you that you'll
fail at OTHER endeavors, too!

Note: I don't mean that as a curse, but rather a fact of life: you've got
to roll with the punches and be a LOT more forgiving and maybe get some
more perspective.  Or so it seems.  I don't know you at all, really!

Wendy, Mummy to 3 breastfed babies


text:
Circe <[email]> wrote in message
news:yTHW8.16516$[email]...

ROFL.  Did I create this thing?  Really?  I thought it would be pretty
quiet, really, as I've been lurking so much most people have forgotten me
anyway. ;)

3
easy

Absolutely he was projecting!  He was so worn out, so disconcerted by seeing
me in pain and crying during labor (and I was relatively quiet, no screaming
or any of the horror stories you see on television!) and falling over from
lack of sleep that he was the one who wasn't quite capable of making sound
decisions.  As for me, as soon as I got done giving birth, that
adrenaline/oxytocin rush hit and I was rarin' to go! :)

delivering

Absolutely.   You're aware of some of the other things they did at this
hospital, so I'm sure the 4-5 hour wait to get baby is not shocking to you.
I would absolutely NOT recommend that hospital to any woman who wasn't
prepared to let the doctors/nursing staff make 100% of the decisions.  I
know that many women prefer that, and to each her own, but that wasn't what
I was picturing when I registered there.

<snip>But at least now you know what happened, and
chances
been

Exactly.  I'm so much more relaxed about the whole situation now that I
*know* what happened.  I'm sure you understand exactly what I mean, too, oh
she-who-must-be-my-sister-on-some-other-plane-of-existence, because it was
the *not* knowing that drove me batty.   :)  It just pressed my OCD
tendencies into research mode, where I've been stuck for many months. ;)

Thanks, Barbara!  I need it. ;)

Victoria,
who is still surprised Barbara went with the MPV


text:
Bev Brandt <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

That's for sure.  Heh. I figured anyone would be able to figure out that a
husband lying to you for 6 months is sure to piss you off, but NOOOOOO....

:)

Yes, Craig easily figured out that there was an easier way to get a full
tummy than working for it at mommy's breast. :)  Funny how their
personalities are so formed already.  "Mom, leave me alone.  If I'm nursing
then I'm not *exploring* my world!!!!"

No, I completely agree with you.  It's probably why some people are judging
me so harshly.  "Oh, well, I *never* had a problem switching between bottle
and breast, what are you whining for?"  I believe all babies have
preferences in feeding styles, just like they have preferences for things
like Baths vs. Showers, or Red toys vs Blue toys.  Unfortunately, not all
babies like switching, and Craig was one of them. Once he knew there was
another option out there, he'd starve himself before giving in to the one he
didn't like.  Stubborn get. ;)

I was.  For a long time.  I second-guessed myself because I didn't know what
had happened to give Craig a preference so early on.  I studied and
researched and talked to my doctor and to LC's and to women on mkbf, checked
out our LLL, trying to find answers.  I suspected that he had been given a
bottle at the hospital, I just didn't *know* he had.  DH did, which I think
is the point, and he kept that from me, which I think is the issue.  I'm
actually much more relaxed about the whole situation *now that I know what
happened* because I think we can avoid it happening in the future.  Before I
was in limbo, with no answers, and full of self-doubt and recriminations.
Craig is happy and healthy.  DH knows better now.  I've finally got the
answers I was looking for.  Gizmo is going to do great.

Victoria


author: merry mack

text:
I successfully nursed several of my babies despite hospital supplementing,
letting siblings and dh supplement while I was out and didn't want to pump.
(Yes in the early days and weeks).  I quit when they wanted to.  No guilt,
and they are as healthy as my bottle fed babies.  You've been dragging this
around for 13 months????  How exhausting.
MM

"Bev Brandt" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<agd5kj$659$[email]>...
fresh
I
all
why
most
suspicion


text:
Kate J <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<agd5kj$659$[email]>...
I'd
here
that

Thanks, Kate.  I thought I had made that clear, but apparently I hadn't. :)
Yes, this is the reason for the vent, in reality. :)  Yeah, so he screwed up
at the hospital.  Big deal.  We could have worked through it.  But he kept
it from me during all the months we were exploring the issues trying to
figure out where we went wrong (and it was pressing for me, as I wanted to
be prepared for Gizmo! I was already pregnant again!).   I can't see how
anyone, even those who think their DH's can do no wrong, could believe that
is acceptable in a partnership, a committed and loving marriage.

He has. :)  We've discussed it in detail.  I know that the mistake he made
is probably not the *only* contributing factor to Craig's preference for the
bottle, and now *he* knows that I don't think it is either.  He knows I'm
more upset about him keeping it from me for so long.  He is enjoying reading
all these threads over my shoulder, though. :)

Victoria


author: P. Tierney

text:
"Wendy Marsden" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

    *I* used the word too, somewhat facetiously, as some of the
"solutions" that people proposed were so dreadful and harmful
to the home environment that, were they to follow such a path,
they may as well have gotten divorced.  Of course, I had no
expectation that such a path would be followed.

                                                                P. Tierney


text:
Wendy Marsden <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Yes, you were the one who recommended he leave me and find a new mom for my
children. :)  LOL.

Obviously that was the case with my first hospital and birth plan.
Hopefully it won't be the case with the second.

Victoria


author: Kate J

text:
"Nancy P." <[email]> wrote in message news:<bytW8.98719$[email]>...

Oh but that's half the fun :) After a while we're not talking about
the OP's situation any moe but a mythical one which we can build into
something really worthy of ire. If we saw both sides of the situation
in the first place there would be nothing to talk about.

Kate


text:
Nancy P. <[email]> wrote in message
news:bytW8.98719$[email]...
about
I'm

Thanks a lot for the support, Nancy.  Yeah, I knew that I would be baring a
bit of the personal on this post, but wasn't expecting it to turn into the
decade's great debate. :)  Just a chance you take when you post personal
info on Usenet.

DH appreciates someone realizing he's wonderful (besides me, of course!) and
since he agrees with me that he was in the wrong about this, he's finding
all the flogging I'm getting quite amusing.  He actually suggests we should
have all our disagreements on the group, since he seems to do better here.
;)

Heh.

Victoria


text:
Michelle J. Haines <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Exactly.  This is the issue.  Many people have made much over the fact that
I'm upset about him giving permission to the hospital staff to give a
bottle, but that's NOT the main reason for my rant.  It was the omission
that got to me, especially after we had worked so hard together to try to
figure out the problem, and he *knew* there was an ingredient missing from
our discussions, and he kept that from me.  That's the reason for the vent,
not the bottle.  I think this thread has been made a scapegoat for people
who like to have the FF vs. BF debate, instead of the real issues.

Yes! :)  This time around we're going to a different hospital, I have a
midwife and a different doula (though my last doula was really good, she
doesn't do deliveries at the new hospital).  Now, the hospital that we did
deliver Craig at swore they supported everything we asked about, but in the
end we were not supported in anything.  The real fault of all that stuff is
the people at the hospital.  Don't get me started on them prepping Craig for
c*rc without our permission, either.

Heh, exactly. :)  That's also why the title of the thread is "My formerly
perfect DH".  It was a tongue in cheek comment on all the times I've bragged
about how wonderful my DH is, and now find myself venting just like everyone
else.  :)  Of course, someone found a way to misinterpret that as
well...LOL.

Thank you, Michelle! :)

Victoria


text:
Jenrose <[email]> wrote in message
news:agdu34$gr9$[email]...
way.

Thanks, Jen.  We actually did have this discussion.  It centered more around
why he kept it from me for so long, and that I understood that he made a
simple, easily made mistake.  As I've said several times, the issue was
really more about why he didn't admit what happened when we were seeking
answers to our problems instead of keeping it from me.  It seems people
can't separate the BF/Formula issue from this, though.

you
are
hospital,

I'm not so sure this needs to be that extreme.  DH certainly understands now
what happened and why it was important to me, and I know that he would not
do something like this again in the future.

Victoria


author: Cathy Kearns

text:
"Jenrose" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agdu34$gr9$[email]...

time.
great
is

I also think it is really, really clear her hubby knows he screwed up, thus
the hiding it from her for a year so she wouldn't freak.  (Which also was
screwing up...but in an entirely different way.)  I think, given what has
happened, and assuming the OP is as clear with him as she has been
with us how important it is he doesn't do it again, that he will do much
better this time around.  In general, it's best to have both parents feel
they have a vested interest in the child.  Just as it is wonderful to have
a breastfeeding relationship build up from those very first hours and
days, it is also wonderful to have the father involved in those very
first hours and days.  By telling the father he is not trustworthy to
protect his child in the hospital you are taking away his bonding
with his child.  You may get a better breastfeeding relationship going,
(and you may not, as I mentioned, I bet he learned his lesson) but
you won't get a committed father.  To many families, that is also
important.


text:
"Jenrose" <[email]> wrote:
you
are
hospital,

    In other words, I don't trust you as far as I can throw you.
But hey, let's stay married!  For the kids, you know!!!

    Absolutely, positively insane.

    So in your world, people aren't capable of learning from their
mistakes?  How sad.

                                                                P. Tierney


text:
Teh Te of Poopei <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

He says that I was completely right, that he should not have kept it from
me, that he was ashamed of giving in to the nurses and that's why he did it.

Of course, I could have just beat him into submission to get him to say it.
In front of my child.  While screaming at the top of my lungs, chain smoking
Pall-Malls, and swigging straight from the bottle of Jack Daniels.  That
makes a much more exciting tale, doesn't it?

Victoria


text:
Charlotte M. <[email]> wrote in message
news:7apW8.30817$[email]...
guys

No, let me thank *you* again, Charlotte.  Heh.  One of the few rational
beings in the entire post! :)

That is deserving of two rounds of thanks, I think. ;)

Victoria


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"hamilton" <[email]> wrote:

    What isn't clear to me is the role that the nursing staff played in
all of this, and whether or not they suggested and/or recommended it.
I think it matters.

    As for the rest, I can *imagine* that some who might do such a
thing are like that.  But I can't assume that all of those negative terms
apply.

    Okay.

                                                                    P.
Tierney


text:
"Circe" <[email]> wrote :
being able
couldn't get

Pretty much the same thing. The nurse explained the risks of an
epidural while on anticoagulants, and paralysis was one of them.
Yeesh, not a pretty thought.


author: Jenrose

text:
"Tess" <[email]> wrote in message
news:TqZX8.24369$[email]...

Factor V Leiden is a clotting disorder (www.fvleiden.org) which genetically
predisposes people to abnormal clotting, such as DVT, pulmonary embolism,
miscarriage, preeclampsia, heart attack and stroke. I had a pulmonary
embolism on birth control pills in my late teens, and was thus considered
high risk during my pregnancy, although with a combination of herbs,
anticoagulant foods and other preventive measures, I had no clotting related
problems after my 2nd month. There are other genetic clotting disorders
which cause similar problems, as well, but FVL is by far the most common. A
genetic test can tell you exactly what problems you have and how severe they
are. For example, I have one faulty gene. This means my risk is much, much
lower than someone with two faulty genes, but notably higher than someone
with no faulty genes.

My mom had heparin after her pulmonary embolism with her fourth and last
pregnancy (it ended in miscarriage. )

Jen


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message news:<oKJW8.451629$352.71238@sccrnsc02>...

Either you misread my post to Victoria, or you're deliberately
ignoring the rest of it (even the rest of that paragraph) to have an
excuse to go off on your own rant.

Once again, do a little reading on hormones, stress and their effect
on body and mind (especially during late pregnancy) even if you don't
read the rest of my post.  That's all I can tell you.  It's essential
that you at least know what you're talking about before you try to
determine what's "ignorant" and what isn't.  You seem to want to get
off on a rant of your own without even caring whether or not you're
making any sense.

IMO, specutating about the health of one's marriage (and what's going
to happen during the divorce) based on a vent is belittling; but you
haven't seemed upset enough about *those* posts to make the kind of
extreme declarations you made about mine.  You've been tippy-toeing
around the milder comments and completely avoiding those that are more
extreme.  For someone who feels so strongly about the content to
"debate and talk about things", you scrolled past nearly 100 posts
without adding anything of substance, to get to mine.  Are you
"holding a grudge or something"?

Don't answer that.  But do take the time to do the little bit of
'research' I suggested.  You might be able to spare yourself the
"rude" replies you "leave yourself open" for with *your* "ignorant"
statements.

Let's see...
You scrolled past nearly 100 posts (some of which were quite
inflamatory) without making more than a peep, to use superlatives
about a small piece from my post that you now say doesn't even upset
you...it just 'caught your eye'.  You asked about my marriage, I
didn't.  (You may brag about your husband all the time, but I keep my
business private.)  If I didn't bring it up, you shouldn't have
either.

Now you want to turn this into a conversation about who has the right
to say what on Usenet (probably because you really don't know anything
about hormones and you're not going to take the time to learn), and
drag this out in a different direction.  Well, this *is* Usenet,
honey.  You waded through dozens of really inflammatory conversations
on this thread to make sure *I* noticed *you*.  Now you want to
complain about how I respond to you.  I don't care how old you are;
you're behaving like a child who's clamored for attention and then
hates the attention she gets.  *That* is why I brought up age.  *That*
is why I told you to grow up.


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Donna" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
before

Of course it's his baby too, but he absolutely does not have a right to make
a unilateral decision to undermine breastfeeding. Period. Something like
that would be very close to a marriage killer for me, because it shows a
fundamental lack of respect for the mother. There is no good reason to do
it, and honestly, that is not his decision to make unilaterally. I'd be
disinclined to consider his decision to make at all. Fathers have lots and
lots of rights in parenting. I do not extend that right to sabotaging the
nursing relationship.

Jen


author: Richard Steven Walz

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
In article <[email]>,
Donna <[email]> wrote:
----------------------
No, courts have decided that when the child is reliant directly on his
mother that the father is committing assault to interfere. Been decided.
This is an old one from the 60's.

Any father that directly undermines the mother, IF her wishes are sound
medically, should be KILLED!
Steve


author: Clisby Williams

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
Donna wrote:

If the mother was in a coma, sure, he'd have just as much authority to make the
decision.   But in general, no - he doesn't have the same standing as the
mother when it comes to feeding the baby, because any decisions he makes don't
physically affect him.

FWIW, I, like some other posters, doubt that getting a couple of bottles in the
hospital (if that did happen - I'm not even clear that it did) would be enough
by itself to ruin breastfeeding.

But I can sure understand Victoria's anger at her husband, especially for not
telling her the truth.

Clisby


author: Aimee

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Donna" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
before

Are you kidding???!!!!!  Not when it comes to bf....  she made clear her
decision to bf, and she was blatantly ignored and disregarded not only by
the hospital staff WHO KNEW BETTER, but by her husband whether it was out of
concern for her, ignorance of bf, or disregard for his wife's wishes.  This
was flat out wrong!

Aimee
Breastfeeding Advocate, and lucky to be a SAHM to Amber-Ravelle born
9/18/98, and Aidan Hunter born 4/28/02
So proud of my breastfed babies!

Pictures of my babies -
http://hometown.aol.com/auburnmist1/myhomepage/index.html
Aidan Hunter's very own webpage -
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aidanhunter
Aimee Hood Photography - http://www.aimeehoodphotography.com


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Donna" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
before
Okay, if that's the case, would it be okay for dad to feed his 4mo baby
solids without discussing it first with mom after they'd previously agreed
to wait until the baby was 6mo? Send in baby for a circumcision when he knew
his wife didn't approve? Okay for mom to get her baby daughter's ears
pierced when she knows dad is against it?

It's one thing when there is no previous agreement about what will or will
not be done. It's quite another when both parents have agreed that X will
happen and then one parent goes behind the other's back to make Y happen
instead. It's even *more* another thing when the parent who does this
doesn't explain immediately what he/she did and why (and, if appropriate,
beg forgiveness).


author: Diane Willcutts

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In general, although I understand the
baby-goes-to-the-nursery-for-hospital-security theory, all the hospitals
I've visited have had elaborate security systems.  Tags matching mom to
baby.  A tag on the baby that goes off if they pass a certain point in the
maternity area.  Policy that only the mom (not even the dad) can leave the
floor with the baby.  Multiple doors leading to the area that had to be
buzzed open.  Etc.  And lots and lots of staff around who stop anyone who
isn't known or is taking a baby anywhere besides the nursery or the mom's
room.  I suppose there are always ways around the system, but it would be
much easier for a staff member to do this than anyone else.  Under those
circumstances, the nursery wouldn't necessarily be safer than the mom's
room.  Not that I would argue *that* theory with anyone at the hospital.

In any case, if someone at the hospital said the baby had to come to the
nursery because of security concerns, I guess I would be thinking that I had
given birth in the wrong place.

And I would just politely say no.  (What are they going to do?  Take the
baby away from her mother?  They don't have that right.  Remembering this
sort of thing, though, I remember why I thought it was so important to have
Tom stay with me at the hospital after the baby was born.  He was in much
better shape to be assertive than I was.)

I did go through a similar situation, especially the first time around.
Even when rooming in, I was strongly encouraged to send Panda to the nursery
at night.  And they were frequently running off with her to do weight
checks, exams, and other procedures.  Being away from her so much just felt
*wrong* to me, and I can only guess that she felt the same way.

Then, before Emerson was born, I started seeing a midwife (based at the
hospital) who let me in on a little secret.

In-room admission.  *Real* rooming in.  24 hours a day.

With most hospitals, "rooming in" still means the baby is admitted to the
nursery.  Which means for exams, baths, PKU, etc., the baby is often taken
away from the mom.  And the staff may even expect the baby to be in the
nursery at night.

Not so with in-room admission.  As it was explained to me, if the baby is
admitted to the *mom's room* (not the nursery),  the baby does not have to
go to the nursery ever.  Baby needs a warmer?  In the room.  Pediatrician
needs to check the baby?  In the room.  Lab technician needs to draw blood?
In the room.  (And yes, even with in-room admission which specifically
allows for all this, I still had to do--very polite but firm--battle from
time to time to make sure that happened.  The nurse on my floor was new and
didn't understand the policy.  And then my lab tech didn't want me
witnessing the PKU.  However, I was determined to be present in case Emerson
needed comforting, which he did.)

With in-room admission, if I *wanted* Emerson to go stay in the nursery, he
could still go there.  My midwife encouraged this, so I could get better
sleep.  But from past experience, I knew I would sleep worse if he was gone.
It was nice knowing I had the option, though.

Of course, our hospital never *tells* anyone that in-room admission is an
option.  According to my midwife, this was because they would rather have
moms just room in with babies; in-room admission is a pain for them.  I
can't remember the details, but it could be that it was more effort for the
pediatrician to make a special trip to our room to see the baby?  Maybe an
additional nurse had to stop by the room every hour or two?  And there were
probably other routines that would have been easier to handle in the
nursery.  Plus they wouldn't have had to deal with me watching over their
shoulders and asking questions every time they wanted to do anything to
Emerson.

Anyway, I would strongly encourage moms to ask about in-room admission at
their hospitals.  If they have it, you just have to make sure the staff
knows what you want once the baby is born.  Otherwise, the baby may be
automatically admitted to the nursery (the usual procedure at our hospital
anyway for babies whose moms have chosen to "room in").

Of course, even with in-room admission, I found the hospital stay pretty
frustrating.  Most of the staff were wonderful, but there was still so much
misinformation and bureaucracy to overcome.  And ultimately, what I felt was
best for my baby often conflicted with their schedules, their ideas of how
things should be.  I mean, with Panda, the nurses loved me.  I was an ideal,
obedient little patient.  With Emerson, I think they were happy to see me
check out early.  (Well, at least my LC loved me.)  I can only imagine what
it would have been like to have been surrounded by people who supported me
with my birth (instead of who viewed me as an adversary at times).  I mean,
I really would have preferred to just lie there in that lazy, rosy glow of
baby-induced joy, instead of having to jump up and (nicely but persistently)
argue with people about what was best for my baby.  It would have been so
wonderful to be assisted by people who were *happy* about my decisions,
rather than ones who were--at best--confused by my decisions or, at worst,
disapproving of them.  Even with the best of circumstances, I now have
little interest in trying to give birth in a hospital again.  Because I
think I did everything I could to support myself--working with a midwife, a
doula, an LC, preparing a (5-page, typed!) birth plan (with multiple copies
for everyone), and arranging for an in-room admit for baby.  But the
hospital was simply not a mommy- or baby-friendly environment.  Worse, it
seems that a number of things that occurred at the hospital (about which I
had no say or for which I gave misinformed permission) eventually created
problems for me and my children.

One major source of (as yet not fully processed) anger/pain for me is that I
ended up with an unwanted episiotomy, which was probably also unneeded since
I didn't need one even with Panda (she had a *huge* head) and Emerson was
much smaller.  It's hard to say, though, since the doctor wasn't about to
tell me otherwise.  I mean, can you imagine my hearing "well, using those
little tools makes me feel like I have a reason to be here" or "I have a
brunch to get to?"  (Um, yes, I clearly still have some issues left to deal
with regarding what happened.  I do understand--in my head--that the
episiotomy may have actually been in my best interest.  From a general stats
perspective, probably not, though.)  It's a trust issue, I guess.  If my
midwife had done the episiotomy, I would have just assumed it was needed,
since we had discussed this and I know she prefers to not do them except in
specific circumstances.  Unfortunately, she didn't make it to the hospital
before I had to deliver Emerson, and I was in no condition to discuss my
birth plan with the on-call doctor in the 5 minutes or so before Emerson was
born.   (The joy of the "easy," 2 1/2-hour labor and delivery.  I was lucky
not to deliver in the parking garage.)  And then there were the myriad other
jarring "wrongnesses" I experienced at the hospital.

I know I made the best decisions I could at the time, and I've learned a lot
about myself in the meantime.  I know that the people involved were doing as
well as they could.  I also know that next time, I can make any number of
different decisions if I want to, e.g., travelling a little farther to a
birth center, having a planned home birth, maybe even making sure I have a
doula or someone with me (to remind me of my options) the whole time I'm at
the hospital, etc.  In any case, I'm sure this anger will resolve itself
eventually.  I'm pretty sure.  I think.  :)

Oops.  Emerson has zoomed into the other room.  Time to go.

Diane, mom to Pandora (6/6/96) and Emerson (2/8/01)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Sharon Fitzgerald" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]
Like others have said, our hospitals were pretty careful about access
to the maternity wards (people couldn't just wander in and out of
rooms: every visitor had to check in at a main desk and get a badge)
and about having bands on anyone who was authorized to take the baby
that matched the baby. I think it would have been pretty difficult
for anyone to get out of the hospital with any of our babies without
someone catching them. Plus, like one of the other posters, I tended
to sleep lightly and with the babies right there in the bed with me
*and* I had either my husband or my mother with me the whole night.
So I can't imagine a stranger--or even hospital staff-prying the baby
away from me without my waking up.

Of course, I personally *hate* hospitals and always wanted to get home
ASAP after each of the babies were born, so we never stayed more than
one night. I'm sure I would have been a lot more concerned about the
prospect of some highing off with the baby if I'd been there long e
enough to actually fall into a really sound sleep!


author: Barbara Foster Williams

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In article <[email]>,
 Sharon Fitzgerald <[email]> wrote:

You mean a staff member taking the baby or someone else doing it?  If
you mean someone else, at the hospital where Jamie was born (and I know
at a lot of other hospitals) they put an alarm bracelet on the baby's
ankle and it goes off if the baby leaves the ward.  As far as the
*nurses* taking the baby, though, the only real way to prevent that if
you're not a light sleeper is to have someone awake in the room at all
times.  Rooming in is becoming more and more common, but I know there
are still some hospitals where the baby isn't *allowed* to be in the
room if no one is awake.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
-
"Sharon Fitzgerald" <[email]> wrote in message >

This worried me also, and that's exactly why I didn't sleep much at all at
the hospital.  If I did, it was very light.  The slightest noise woke me up.
At my hospital, they would come and take babies to do vitals, but never
without the mom knowing.  I typically sent hubby along, and then because of
some severe stress I went through in the hospital with my medical condition,
I said NO more taking him out of my room, period!  I made the rules, and
they followed.  With my first baby, different hospital, the baby never, ever
left my room, they did vitals, blood tests, everything in my room.  Some
hospitals are still a little wacky about taking babies.  I don't agree with
this AT ALL.

Aimee
Breastfeeding Advocate, and lucky to be a SAHM to Amber-Ravelle born
9/18/98, and Aidan Hunter born 4/28/02
So proud of my breastfed babies!

Pictures of my babies -
http://hometown.aol.com/auburnmist1/myhomepage/index.html
Aidan Hunter's very own webpage -
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aidanhunter
Aimee Hood Photography - http://www.aimeehoodphotography.com


author: Emily Roysdon

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Sarajoyo" wrote:

| > I can totally understand her being upset, because I would be extremely
| > upset in her shoes.  As a matter of fact, my husband *did* give
| > permission for Jamie to have formula (and fed it to him) right after he
| > was born, because his blood sugar was low and I was unconscious.  I was
| > upset when I found that out, but I would have been *much* more upset if
| > he'd not told me about it for a whole *year*, for pete's sake.
| >
| See, that's exactly how I feel about it, and I think that's what Victoria
| was most upset about.  The formula, yeah, you get mad but get over it and
| realize that the little guy turned out okay in spite of it, but the DH
| covering it up - that would take me a LONG time to get over.  I think
| Victoria has every right to feel angry and cheated by her DH.

And she *just* found out about it.  Yeah, it *happened* 13 months ago, but
to her, it's just now coming out; it's not as if she's been brooding about
it for over a year.  Also, Victoria went through a ton of breastfeeding
difficulties that may have been because of her dh and the choice he made to
subvert her wishes and allow bottles, so *of course* she feels betrayed.  If
it were me, I wouldn't trust my dh in that position a second time, and I'd
hire a doula or get a close friend to act as one (assuming a home birth,
which would eliminate this problem entirely, isn't possible) and make up a
bunch of NO BOTTLES signs to put everywhere in the room.  I'd instruct my
doula/friend that the baby was not to leave her sight, and that bottles were
not to be given as long as I was still alive.  Seriously.  Many husbands
cave in against their wives' wishes after the birth of a child (or during
labor) because it's such an intense time and there are so many
"professionals" giving advice.  It's a very overwhelming time, so Victoria
needs to have someone there who can run interference between her and the
hospital staff.  And that someone is not her husband.  In the meantime, this
is something they need to work out.  When one spouse feels so strongly about
something, and the other one goes behind her back then hides it from her,
even if after watching her go through a great breastfeeding struggle,
pondering if bottles might have been the problem, there are some
communication and trust issues that need to be ironed out.  But the first
order of business is to prevent it from happening again.

Good luck, Victoria...I know how hard it is to trust a spouse after a
betrayal.


author: Teh Te of Poopei

text:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:17:15 -0400, "Victoria Frerichs"
<[email]> wrote:

LOL!  I was born at Besthesda and look how I turned out! LOL!

Loev,

Ms Pants


author: Kara Habel

text:
Victoria Said:

No problem!

I'll

I'll be sure to remember all this for the future!

the

WOW! What a messed up hospital! I don't know if there is ANYTHING else they
could have done wrong! I'll be sure to pass on this info to others should
they ask!

of

EWW! Don't they understand how important it is to have good care after
giving birth? Obviously not! That's terrible. I'm sure they have been
b*tched out many a times by moms and family for that...but it obviously had
no impact! What a-holes!!

I know where that is and haven't heard anything bad about it (though I have
heard nothing at all of the birting department...but that has no importance
coming from me!)

Yeah! It sounds wonderful! I'm sure with the doulas it will be fabulous
because I have yet to hear ONE bad doula experience! I'm sure they will be
sure that all your needs are met!

In case you were wondering....The hospitals that would be closest and best
for me (if I am where I am at the time) are Good Sam and Christ. My siblings
and I were all born at Good Sam but several aunts have given birth at Christ
and Bethesda both. Now IIRC the Bethesda that was near me shut down because
the one in WC was built but I am not positive.

FYI: Hyde Park is an east-side town (that's VERY important, you know! ;) )
It is VERY close to downtown and the river. I think WC is considered
east-side, and if it is...we are on the opposite ends of the east-side (if
you understand...its a little confusing to me too, and I've lived here all
my life!). Hyde Park is an OLD neighborhood. I'm sure you have heard of it
or driven through it or read about it or something like that. In shorter
terms: no, the hospitals you would use wouldn't be the ones I would use (due
to location), given I lived in Hyde Park, so therefore you were correct when
you said that. Lol!

Also, if you don't mind me asking, I remember you talking about your new
house and I've seen the pictures as well (GREAT house, BTW!). Where are you
located now that you have moved? It seems like one of the 'newer' townships
(like West Chester or Mason). I have heard nothing but good things about
those areas and they look fabulous.

ENOUGH RAMBLING! Sorry for such a long reply!
-K


author: Michelle J. Haines

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
says...

Oh, now we're going to dick-size parenting troubles?

Yee-haw!  I've got my yard-stick handy...

Michelle
Flutist


author: Circe

text:
"Wendy Marsden" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
breastfeeding, so
Would it have been better if I had qualified it by saying "breastfeeding
disaster"? There's no question in my mind, however, that Victoria's efforts
to breastfeed, something that was very important to her and is very
important to me, were undermined and sabotaged at every turn by well-meaning
but apparently uneducated people around her.

Oh, I realize that in the scheme of things, it's reasonably small. There was
a period of time when we thought my daughter might have muscular dystrophy.
*That* would have been much, much worse than having to deal with early
weaning. But that doesn't mean Victoria doesn't have a right to her feelings
about her nursing relationship with her baby. Nor does it mean she's wrong
to be upset and angry with the people who helped cause the problem in the
first place.

Oh brother. This is like the people who tell women who've had traumatic
C-sections that they should just get over it because, after all, they have a
healthy baby and *how* they had the baby doesn't matter compared to that!
Breastfeeding matters to Victoria. It matters to me, so I can understand why
it matters to her. I sympathize with her because I understand. That fact
that you do not doesn't make her feelings or mine wrong.

Yes, we all fail at things we try. But when we fail, it's natural to try to
figure out where we went wrong so we can do better next time. And if/when we
find out that a big part of the reason we failed wasn't of our own making,
it's upsetting.

And her perspective is that she wants to understand what went wrong last
time so she has a better chance of succeeding this time. For a long time,
she's blamed herself. Suddenly, she gets some additional information that
makes her realize she's been beating herself up over something she didn't
do, and furthermore, that her husband has been listening to her do it for
quite some time now while not coming clean about his role. I think that,
whether it's breastfeeding or running a 4-minute mile or baking a cake, if
the person who's supposed to be your partner and advocate does something to
undermine you, knows you're upset when you fail, and then doesn't admit to
what he/she did to contribute to your failure, it's a pretty tough pill to
swallow. It doesn't mean you'll never get over it, but it *does* hurt.


author: Donna

text:
"Wendy Marsden" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

This is what I keep thinking.  I devoutly hope and pray that the worst thing
the OP ever has to be upset about is that her baby might have been given a
couple of bottles of formula 13 months ago.

Donna


author: Kathy Cole

text:
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:17:55 GMT, [email] (Wendy Marsden)
wrote:

But that's where you get down the road.  If the hubby's screw up just
came to light, as I believe it did, it's understandable that the vent
comes first.  Perspective will happen.


text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agg7m8$8bh$[email]...
monster
I think there's nothing like a good marital dispute over a parenting issue
to get things going around here <g>!

was
you.
what
Sounds really, really awful. As much as I really hate hospitals and would
have preferred a home birth the second and third times around, I have to say
that my hospital experiences were an absolute dream compared to yours.

nursing
known
oh
Must be that Control Phreaque(tm)--to borrow from Glen A--thing. And because
I share it, I *totally * understand. It's just in our natures to
overanalyze, I suppose.
Not much more than I am, I suspect <g>. Honestly, I could have taken it or
left it, at least for the time being. My husband thinks *I* wanted it really
badly, but the truth is, he was the one driving the decision. It worried him
a lot that I had to cart Julian around in the Nissan with only a lap-belt
and no proper child restraint. At the same time, he was totally unwilling to
let me drive his precious GTI, in which all three kids *did* fit with
restraints, so maybe he felt a bit guilty about it, too. That worry,
combined with the recognition that it would be silly to buy yet another car
in which we could only cart our own kids (even if we could use restraints
for all of them), was the real clincher. (Plus, we got a pretty darn good
deal! There are some benefits to a shaky economy!)


author: Victoria Frerichs

text:
merry mack <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
pump.

Congratulations.  It sounds like you had a very easy to nurse baby who
didn't mind switching and combi-feeding.  It sounds like your DH and you
agreed that you liked to combi-feed, you stuck with your plans,  and your
plans worked out exactly as you wished them to.  Great for you, I really am
happy that it worked that way for you.  I fail, however, to see how your
situation relates even in the slightest to mine.

No, actually, I've been dragging it around for about 6, when my DS refused
to nurse.  For no apparent reason.  I didn't *know* my husband kept things
from me until the day I made this post, so the anger has really only been
around for a few days, and is mostly resolved now anyway.  Thanks for
stopping by and playing, though.

Victoria


text:
-
"merry mack" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
pump.
this

Yet again someone who thinks "her babies" are the model babies of the world,
and hers turned out perfect so, everyone elses should be fine too.

And, yet again someone who doesn't know all that Victoria went through after
having her baby.

Aimee


author: Meghan

text:
On 10 Jul 2002 00:45:54 -0700, [email] (Kate J) wrote:

Yup.  Navigating a thread like this is like reading a "Choose Your Own Soap
Opera" book.

---If you think so-an-so is really saying this, turn to message #45890589054

---If you think such-and-such really means this, turn to message #90543895454

Who needs TV when you have usenet?


text:
In article <agg5ji$7tf$[email]>, [email]
says...

What thread isn't?  Except those about the c*rc debate. :)

:-0  I would have not only hit the ceiling, but dragged a few people
along with me!  Prepping a baby for surgery without permission?
That's a hell of a thing to do!

:)

Michelle
Flutist


text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agg4kk$7lf$[email]...
was
and
a
around
can
see
now

Since it sounds like you don't feel that way anymore, of course it shouldn't
come to that extreme. I'm glad you guys were able to work it out in a manner
that lets you feel confident.
Jen


text:
Cathy Kearns <[email]> wrote in message
news:neDW8.2224$[email]...

thus

Thank you, Cathy.  Yes, DH and I have discussed this (in our house,
discussions take place in normal tones and don't involve throwing dishes,
unlike what some people have assumed about us in general during this thread)
and DH admitted that it was more a matter of "When I realized that they took
what I said as carte blanche to feed Craig whatever and whenever they wanted
to, and then later on realized that it could have been contributing to the
problem we were working so hard to fix, I felt *ashamed* that I had done it
without thinking of it".  Regardless of what he told the nurses they could
do then, he had no idea it could have long term affects and he was just as
overwhelmed with the whole experience as I was, if not more so.  He didn't
admit it to me because felt bad.  It doesn't make it right that he kept it
from me, but I can certainly understand it.  I think he is much more
prepared for this time around.

That is most important.  I am totally committed to BF, and so is DH, and now
that we've been through the worst experiences possible with establishing a
BF relationship with Craig, we're both pretty sure it will be much easier
this time around.  We know more, we have more experience, we won't be so
quick to make things more convenient for the hospital staff (which was
really what the hospital staff wanted in influencing him to make that
statement in the first place).   I *do* and *will* trust my husband
implicitly with our child, in or out of the hospital, even moreso because of
this whole conversation and bonding we've gone through over this issue.

Victoria


author: Wendy Marsden

text:
P. Tierney ([email]) wrote:

Careful, P, she only wants support from this post, not differing
perspectives.  Anyone supporting the husband or thinking her shrewish is
not welcome in this thread.  You're supposed to say,

"Oh, Victoria, how awful that he BETRAYED you sooooo TERRRIBLY!"

There, doesn't that feel helpful now?

Wendy


text:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:18:17 -0400, "Victoria Frerichs"
<[email]> wrote:

No need to be a smart ass about it.

Loev,

Ms Pants


author: P. Tierney

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote:
it.

    I think this is the sensible resolution that a lot of people
expected.

                                                                P. Tierney


author: Bev Brandt

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message news:<agg5ns$7up$[email]>...

You're missing the creative adjectives for your spouse and the
comparison to his mother.

Actually...sounds like our across-the-street neighbors where I grew
up. Replace the Pall-Malls with Kools and I think it's a direct lift.

Bev


text:
-
"Tess" <[email]> wrote in message
news:5sZX8.24379$[email]...

Yes... I was the same.  Although I had to have a c-section so they rushed a
blood test to find out exactly how much heparin I had in my blood.
Thankfully, it came back pretty low, so they proceeded with the epidural.  I
was freaking out at this time, even with the Stadol.  I'm just glad I
skipped a couple days of heparin shots, that counted for the low result.
You just never know when your health will take a turn, and pregnancy can
become complicated overnight.  It's pretty scary.  I'm glad we live in the
now, and not the past.  I know I probably would have died, and my baby as
well.

Aimee
Breastfeeding Advocate, and lucky to be a SAHM to Amber-Ravelle born
9/18/98, and Aidan Hunter born 4/28/02
So proud of my breastfed babies!

Pictures of my babies -
http://hometown.aol.com/auburnmist1/myhomepage/index.html
Aidan Hunter's very own webpage -
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aidanhunter
Aimee Hood Photography - http://www.aimeehoodphotography.com


author: Tess

text:
"Jenrose" <[email]> wrote :

why I
genetically
embolism,
pulmonary
considered
herbs,
clotting related
disorders
common. A
severe they
much, much
someone
and last

Ah, thank you for clearing that up! My OB had me tested for genetic
clotting disorders, so maybe this was one that they checked me for.
Mine were plain, garden variety clots caused by a combination of
pregnancy and a desk job.


author: Kandace Wright

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Suzanne Dallapï¿½" <[email]> wrote in message
news:idIX8.17182$[email]...
belittles
what
I

I was trying to point that out but instead it got muddled in the come backs,
lol.  I don't like the idea of anyone belittle someone's feelings by just it
blowing off to hormones.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Jolene" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<oKJW8.451629$352.71238@sccrnsc02>...

No... I will answer it.  I came in on the end of the thread as I wasn't
around for the start so to speak.  There were too many to read and honestly,
this one and a couple of others that I commented on caught my eye.
point.

Actually, I don't believe I even post that much to brag about my husband.
The reason I said that was because in my experience women who make comments
like yours usually have husbands who make comments like that.   I do know
about hormones and their impact, very well.

It was unnecessary.  It's not I who needs to grow up.  You are also
very...um...conceited to believe that I sought out your post.  You are no
one to me.  I don't mean that rudely, either.... though I know it does sound
rude.  What I mean is I don't know you and vice versa.   I could care if you
noticed me or not.  It's kind of funny, you bring up my age without knowing
the "research", tantrum at me for not knowing my research on the entire,
huge thread.  You vainly assume I care about you in any manner.  Yet you
tell me to grow up.  Seems silly to me.  I'm sorry you couldn't have been
mature enough to discuss and acknowledge the rudeness of your comments.  I'm
even more sorry you think I have it in for you when I don't know you from
the next jo-something or other from usenet.

You wouldn't happen to be going through menopause since you're so wise and
old?  That might be why you're so sensitive to my comments?  ;)

I suppose since you think I am purposely picking on you, I could put you in
my killfile so I won't reply to your future posts.  I would hate to make
your hormonal issues worse for you by goating you.  Or is that what I'm
doing now?  I'm so sorry if I am.


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Jenrose" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agdug2$h2i$[email]...
make

I find it very difficult to believe that this poor guy sat down and thought
"Gee, how can I undermine my wife's breastfeeding attempts....  hmmmm...".

I don't know about anyone else's husband, but mine makes the best decisions
he can, based on the data he has.   If someone comes to him and suggests
that the baby be given a bottle if she looks hungry, it wouldn't occur to
him that he would need permission from me to make that kind of decision.

Something like

See, I just think he made a decision she doesn't agree with.  Maybe he made
the wrong one, who knows?  I'm guessing that this may not be the first time
two well-meaning married people disagree on something.   But to be blaming
him for one decision, for so long after the fact, seems to be an awfully
poor choice.

Donna


author: Aimee

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
-
"Clisby Williams" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
in the
enough

She stated that in fact she knows he did receive a bottle and possibly more.
You can doubt all you want, but the facts are that *many* things including
one bottle of formula *can* be detrimental to a bf relationship.  If it
didn't interfere with a nursing relationship, one can consider themselves
*lucky*.  She made the decision to bf, and made it clear she wanted to
succeed.  She had every right as a mother to *have* a successful bf
relationship, and because of stupidity and unprofessional hospital staff who
never should have asked him in the first place, and a husband who made a
*poor* choice at the time, she lost her nursing relationship.  Whether the
one bottle was the direct cause or the slippery slope that ultimately ended
her nursing rleationship, don't dis-credit her now by saying "I doubt that's
what did it".

Aimee


author: Rosalie B.

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
Clisby Williams <[email]> wrote:
<snip>

Ditto   She did say later however that the baby was given formula in the
hospital.  Several times.  But I still don't think that it would ruin bf.

I think the ability of the mother to relax, and most importantly having
competent instruction (she said she had no problem when her doula was
there) would be much more important to the bf experience.  My dd#2 had a
lot of trouble with her ds, but the 2nd child was OK because someone who
knew how to do it showed her a slightly different method.

Yes, but given the anger and the fact that she apparently has been holding
a grudge for all this time, and is was still talking about it after more
than a year, I can completely understand why he DIDN'T tell her.

Although she says that they went through the birthing plan together (which
is something new since my day and which I think sounds really freaky
personally - if I had had to do something like that I would have been even
more scared than I was), I have no difficulty imagining that he might have
just agreed with everything she said without really paying too much
attention to it.  Maybe because it was something that he found
uncomfortable to think about.

My father was not willing to acknowledge that my mother was ever sick or
disabled.  It made him crazy.  (He once had her drive from MD to FL to St.
Louis and back to MD with a case of pleurisy.  Fortunately, she insisted on
going to the doctor before they left, so it was being treated, but she was
still sick.  He couldn't drive because he'd had multiple heart attacks and
a stroke.)  And my dh said that he would not want to be in the delivery
room with me - it was a pretty new thing at that time, so it wasn't the
norm, and I was totally OK with that.  I didn't think that he wasn't a good
father or supportive of me just because he didn't want to watch the birth
because I knew that wasn't the case.

So I think her insistence on calling this a complete betrayal is really
over the top and demonstrates a complete inability to see anyone's point of
view other than her own.  Very egocentric IMHO.

If she truly thinks that her husband has betrayed her, I don't see why she
stays married.  And if she keeps carrying on like that, she probably WON'T
be married very long, or at the least the quality of her marriage won't be
all it could be.

A marriage should be about both people, and not just about one person's
feelings.  Kissing off her dh's reasons for telling the nurses that it was
OK to give a bottle is not the way to have a partnership any more than his
giving them the permission when he knew that she wouldn't approve is.  Both
of them are at fault here.  It isn't all on his side.

grandma Rosalie


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Aimee" <[email]> wrote:
of
This

    Yes, that has been agreed upon.  No one disputes that he
was wrong.

    Whether or not she was "blatently ignored", "disregarded",
and "ignorance of bf" was in play, however, is a matter of
interpretation.

                                                                P. Tierney


author: Chookie

subject: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In article <[email]>,
 Diane Willcutts <[email]> wrote:

Here in Australia, public hospitals -- like mine was -- room-in.  I just don't
understand why hospitals elsewhere *need* to take the baby away for weight
checks, exams, and other procedures.

DS had his PKU stab done in front of me, in my room.  He was weighed in my
room.  He was bathed in my room (the nurse explained and I did it).  Any other
tests were done in my room.  He slept there too, of course.

So, everyone, it is definitely possible for everything to be done in your room
(assuming a normal, healthy child).


author: Jenrose

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
If I were ever having another hospital birth, I would check out ASAP after
the birth and go stay at a hotel and order room service. Much, much cheaper
and much better sleep!

Jen

"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
had
have
nursery
felt
blood?
and
Emerson
he
gone.
the
were
much
was
ideal,
what
mean,
persistently)
a
copies
I
since
deal
stats
in
was
lucky
other
lot
as
at


author: Michelle S. Spina

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Diane Willcutts wrote:

As a counter experience, we didn't specify anything special, and James
was with us the entire time - he never *had* to leave us to go to the
nursery. Baths, check-ups, etc., were all done in our room. And we were
in a huge "baby factory" in Boston. Just an example that not all
hospitals are the same (and not all evil).

m.
James 12/17/99
munchkin #2 EDD 10/23/02


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Emily Roysdon <[email]> wrote in message
news:jguW8.15641$[email]...
<snip>

Thanks, Emily. You and Sara both got it exactly right.

Victoria


author: Charlotte M.

text:
"Michelle J. Haines" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
a

The whole comparison thing really irks me.

I loathe the fact that for two years, I have been asking my spouse not to
leave the car turn signal on, the radio jacked up, and the heater going full
bore. I dislike turning on the car engine and finding a wall of noise
rushing at me.

I get mad when he takes my L'Occitane Vanilla-Bourbon $7/bar soap, and drops
it into the bottom of the shower, where he melts the entire thing down to
the size of a choking hazard. Hoo BOY I get mad over that one. I don't buy
myself a lot of treats.

I get really mad that he never cuts the grass.  He will go to great lengths
to avoid cutting the grass, which means that I do pretty much all the yard
work. You have not seen me vent until you've seen me say, for the sixth day
in a row, "You said you would do the grass on Monday. Now it's Saturday. The
neighbors are giving us pitying looks and the municipality is going to fine
us for having our property covered with noxious weeds. When are you going to
cut the grass?" You don't want to see me blow my gasket over that one.

Yesterday, I did some work with a refugee family here.  They lived in hiding
with their two children before they came here. They can't speak English,
their degrees and training aren't worth the paper they're printed on. They
don't own a fork of their own. Before they came here, they saw friends
killed by both guerillas and paramilitaries for non-compliance on either
side. The lost their homes, their land, their family, their jobs, and even
their right to question it all.  The stories their *children* tell are worse
than anything I could ever relate here.

I know how the measuring stick works. I also know that for every person who
has a problem, there is someone who has a worse problem. Using the measuring
stick is a GREAT way to make sure that you never stand up for your needs,
even in your own home.

Let's use it to look menacingly at the people who like to pull out the "in
the greater scheme of things" arguments.

Charlotte


text:
"Donna" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
thing
But that's not what Victoria's upset about! Have we even been reading the
same thread?


text:
Donna <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
thing

You obviously have no idea what the real issue is, either.  The BF issue is
secondary.

Victoria


text:
Kathy Cole ([email]) wrote:

Good point.

My babies have all been weaned for going on two years now.  I've had time
to get over my unwanted C-section, disappointment at hospital-cursed
labors and all that young baby stuff.  My problems with the kids are of
much more substantial stuff, now, from MY perspective!

Wendy


text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message news:<agg8lv$8i9$[email]>...

I do like your analogy. I also think that I understand (maybe) what
Wendy is trying to say. Or maybe I'm seeing what Wendy is saying
through my own experiences and I'm processing it using my own filters.

I understand completely and horribly how trust in a marriage can be
undone. I've been on the untrustworthy side, myself. And if I can
venture into the "dick comparison" territory, I've done much more
awful things than lie by omission. My husband has been in
untrustworthy territory as well and...well..lets not get into the
comparison thing again.

What I hear others like Wendy saying, (and please understand that I'm
not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, I'm definitely putting my
own spin on it) is that in their parenting/marriage experiences there
have been issues of this type and, yes, *larger* issues. There have
been minor slip-ups, lies of omission and outright battles. The range
has been what to feed the baby, which car to buy and what the spouse
does if he or she is "working late." There will also be teenagers and
grandparents and teachers and school counselors in your life who will
disagree with you, tell even "little white lies," or worse.

Some of us have more or different experiences in life. Myself, I've
been married for 18 years and have been nearly divorced twice. Wendy
has older children. There are parents of teens here and grandparents
as well. We have a bell curve of problems that have ocurred in our
lives. If this were my first baby and my husband did this, this issue
would indeed lie at one nearly-extreme end of the bell curve.

But I have 3 children. I have had different experiences. While I take
your issue seriously, my spot for it is not at that end of my
particular bell curve. It's much more moderate compared to some other
things I've been through.

I hope I don't sound like I'm telling you to get over it and move on.
I intend to say that there will likely be other experiences in your
life - and your husband will be a part of them and he may not come out
smelling like a rose - that make this one look at least "different" in
hindsight.

It's difficult to hear these sorts of things from people who have more
experience without them sounding patronizing. It's equally as
difficult to say them.

Bev


author: merry mack

text:
lol, you missed the point....
Every baby is different.

"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agg6hh$83t$[email]...
supplementing,
am


text:
Aimee <[email]> wrote in message
news:zJJW8.10426$[email]...
world,
after

Heh.  Finally someone is sticking up for me ;)

Victoria


text:
"Meghan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Soap
#45890589054
#90543895454

Oooooo!
Can I have it for my tag line? Please?

Jen


text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote in message
news:agg57n$7q2$[email]...
was
has
thread)
took
wanted
it
now
of

There you go. That's how it's supposed to work. I'm glad you're feeling
better about it and more confident.
Jen


text:
"Wendy Marsden" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

    Before someone jumps on me after your post, I *wasn't* responding
to the OP, but to someone else.

    Still, the whole thing got me to thinking about marriage
and how people go about solving problems.  I mean, some people
(referring to no one in particular) must be selecting their spouses
by picking their name out of a hat -- there is so little love and
trust apparent.   Some "solutions" given will do nothing but
create more problems for two people, if they chose that route,
who must've had a strange reason to get married to begin with.

    Ah, marriage and the problems that people create by poor
or thoughtless preparation could by *my* rant.  But, I'm out
of town for the day.  Enjoy.

                                                                        P.
Tierney


text:
"Aimee" <[email]> wrote :

rushed a
epidural.  I
glad I
result.
pregnancy can
live in the
baby as

I wish now that we'd stopped the heparin sooner than we did, because
it was scary to know that I was still prone to bleeding when labor
started. My last shot was a little less than 24 hours before Michael
was born, so my levels were still *waaaaay* off when they first
started checking.


author: Jolene

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message news:<qrhX8.318777$[email]>...

Whatever.

Once again...grow up.  Do it for yourself; do it for the people who
depend on you; do it for the people who *can't* killfile you; do it
for the friends you think walked away only because you breastfeed or
stay at home.

Just grow up.


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Donna" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
thought

He did not purposely undermine breastfeeding but he did do it by not talking
to his wife and following THEIR birth plan.  They had discussed this and she
thought they were on the same page.
decisions

It's not a matter of permission.  It should have occurred to him to talk to
his wife first.  When the NICU nurses pressured Keith into giving Jake
formula he said no.  He and I both had researched breastfeeding versus
formula feeding.  We were on the same page.  He came to me and told me right
away also that they had been bugging him about it.  I would have felt
betrayed if he had not handled it the way he did.

Not because I think he was trying to sabotage breastfeeding purposely but
because he didn't listen or pay attention to all the information we gathered
together to make the best decision on how to feed our baby.

made
time

This is more than just making a decision she didn't agree with.  This
decision may have contributed to her son's early weaning.  He also just
recently revealed this to her.  She hasn't been stewing about it for 13
months, she just found out.

Though even if she did know for the full 13 months she has a right to be
hurt, betrayed and angry.  She also knows that breastfeeding is best and
it's very important to her that it work out.  Now that she has a second
chance with her second baby.  She is being appropriately cautious and aware
of the fact that she and her husband may not be both as committed to
providing their child with the best nutrition which is breastmilk.


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
Babies are very individual. Some babies are resiliant and will latch onto
anything even if exclusively bottle fed for weeks. My foster baby was still
trying to latch onto anything in sight when he was a month old. I always
thought that if allowed, I could probably have relactated just because he
liked to suck so much on EVERYTHING and loved snuggling up close to my
chest.

But other babies are NOT resiliant. Some babies get confused easily by
sucking on *anything* but the breast.

Others are stubborn, and will prefer a fast flowing bottle nipple if they
know it's available. Sometimes baby-boot-camp is necessary to remove *all*
suckables except the breast from these babies. Supplementation by spoon or
cup (so they can't suck) is needed in order that the only place they can
suck be the breast.

Jen

"Rosalie B." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
in the
enough
not
on
good
of
Both


author: Clisby Williams

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Rosalie B." wrote:

But to me, the most important factor isn't what he said to the nurses or even that
he didn't tell her before now.  According to the original post, he's STILL lying
about it by insisting he had told her before (somehow, from the tone of Victoria's
message, I dont think that would have slipped her mind.)

If this happened to me, I'd be most angry about the continuing dishonesty.

Clisby


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Rosalie B." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
in the
enough

Don't assume anything.  It's entirely possible for that to ruin the bf.
Knowledge and mechanics of bf here are the key, not assumption and doubt.

Again, I think you are totally assuming she was not relaxed and competent
herself to bf.  Do you know her whole story and difficulties?

not

Not telling your spouse and not communicating period is a road to disaster
in a marriage.  He should have gone to her from the very beginning, look at
how long he left questions and doubt in her mind and the damage he caused to
the roots and trust in their marriage by not telling her!  Did he not trust
her ability to bf from the very beginning?  Was he planning to hide this
*bit* of info. from the very beginning on purpose???  Why didn't he have the
balls to say, honey, I'm sorry, but I told them it was okay to give him a
bottle...  What the heck is wrong with that!!!  Of course she will be mad.
She should be!  Do you only tell your spouse the things that will make them
happy and jump up and down with glee?????

Freaky??? What's freaky about a birth plan?  Birth plans are wonderful, and
are more and more popular now because mothers are taking *more control* of
their births and the aftercare of their babies rather than just *leaving it
up to* the medical professionals and staff and doing whatever they tell them
to do, rather than doing the research themselves and knowing that their is
not just one answer to every solution, and that not every dr. would do the
same thing.
on
good

That's the difference.  You and your husband both chose to leave everything
up to the medical profession and staff.  Maybe that's how they did it then,
but in Victoria's case, they both chose to be there and participate in the
birth of their child and be in control of the aftercare.
of

I think you're missing the point here.  There *IS* no other view than her
own in this situation.  Bf, involves her babies mouth and her breasts.  The
hospital undermined her choice to bf, and her husband *just didn't think* in
my opinion.  I just don't get why he didn't come to her first.  Actually, I
*don't even get* why the hospital staff came to him and not her, and asked
to give formual to begin with!!!!   They way over-stepped their boundaries.

Why should she divorce him???  He made a mistake, call it whatever.  He
didn't jeopardize her health by sleeping with someone else kind of betrayal.
He screwed up.  From the sound of things, I would hope he realizes that now.
If *he* keeps hiding things from her because she might not agree or get
upset, yes. their marriage will suffer.
Both

Reasons?  What reasons would have been acceptable without her knowing???  If
it was a life or death situation, there would have been a meeting with the
dr. and the mother present.  She did everything she knew to do.  Told all
the staff no bottles, bring him to me even if I'm asleep, had a birth plan,
discussed it with her dh, they both agreed.....  What more could she have
done?  She put her trust in her dh, that didn't work out, now it's her
fault???

Aimee


author: Teh Te of Poopei

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:52:56 -0400, Rosalie B.
<[email]> wrote:

yes, we are only hearing one side.  For all any of us know, she may be
an anal harping B who rides her husband's ass all the time.  After
enough of that, he would learn to just keep quiet and not have endure
the wrath of her sharp tongue.

We haven't heard his side of this story.

Loev,

Ms Pants


author: Marijke

subject: Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
I must be a really horrible mom, as must be several of my friends. I
*wanted* the babies to sleep in the nursery at night, with all three kids.
With the first, I had a horrid delivery and had a very difficult time
getting out of bed without passing out so I didnt want to worry about
dealing with my son as well.
With the second and third, I wanted to be able to get a good night's sleep
and not have to listen for every sound, gurgle and gasp. I knew that I'd be
waking up every night for months later as soon as I got home and this was my
chance to rest.

I nursed at 11 pm,  told the nurses *not* to wake  me up for the 2 a.m.
feeding (I solidly breastfed all three kids for many months each except for
their three nights in the hospital where they all received a 2 a.m. bottle)
and they were instructed to wake me up for the 5 a.m. feeding.

The babies stayed with me in my room from about 8 or 9 a.m. until after the
11 pm feeding and I never a bit badly about it.

I know that I needed my rest and, unlike many, I don't think that it's a bad
thing to put my needs first when there are others who can help do that for
this short period of time.


author: Shawna Bowin

subject: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
What's with people thinking the mother can't handle watching her baby
be stuck for the PKU test?  I had a homebirth, and my midwife came to
my home for baby check-ups at 1 day, 3 days, 7 days, 3 weeks, and I
went to see her at 6 weeks.  I not only was present for both of his
PKU tests, but I held him during them and nursed him immediately
after.  Why do doctors/nurses think mothers are so fragile?  I'm sure
there ARE mothers who don't want to be a part of it, because they're
squeamish or more sensitive than I (I'm pretty callous LOL), but it
should be up to the MOTHER, not the medical people.

Shawna Bowin

DH Adam
DS Nathan 4/26/01
Web page:  http://www.geocities.com/sabowin/bowins.html


author: just me

text:
"Chookie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
nursery
don't
other
room

I know that and you know that but I seriously doubt that very many medically
trained people do, nor those who set hospital procedures.

-Aula, childbirth is not a medical emergency


author: Sarajoyo

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Jenrose" <[email]> wrote in message
news:aggjb4$kk9$[email]...
cheaper

Or do like I did and come home to your own house, tuck up in your own warm
bed with your snuggly new baby, talk to your mom on the phone for a bit
while nursing the baby, and then sleep peacefully in that nice warm bed with
your DH and your baby right there with you.  Wake up the next morning and
nurse the baby and cuddle her while DH brings you breakfast in bed.

Of all my wonderful memories about her labor, birth, and first months, that
first night together as a family is something I'll never forget. :)


author: Diane Willcutts

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
in article [email], Michelle S. Spina at [email]
wrote on 7/9/02 1:58 PM:

Did they really do the PKU in your room without your asking?  (This is the
test--actually one of a whole bunch of tests in CT--that involves drawing
blood from the baby's heel.)  Just curious.

You probably didn't mean to imply this, but my post wasn't a blanket "all
hospitals are evil" statement.  I don't even think the hospitals I've
experienced were evil--we simply have different philosophies regarding mom
and baby care.  Mostly, I think it helps for moms to ask lots of questions
beforehand and to choose their birth location carefully.

Of course, even before going to the hospital, my midwife (whose practice was
at the hospital) warned me that my approach--although technically
permitted--was not consistent with what was normally done, and that this was
likely to be a source of conflict.  I did look into other options, but
unfortunately, all five of the (Hartford area) hospitals within 30 minutes
of where I lived at the time had similar practices.

I thought I could handle it, though.

What I didn't realize was how difficult I would find it, after having just
given birth, to need to continually assert what I wanted.  I mean, it's
great when the hospital and the parents have similar values, but I've become
so "if in doubt, don't intervene" in my approach to health, that I was bound
to have conflict after conflict in these settings.

Since it's *my* body and *my* baby, I feel quite strongly that, after having
been presented with (accurate) information, I should have the final say,
particularly given that what I wanted was--from an Objective standpoint--the
Right Decision.  :)

But that's just me.

D.


author: Circe

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Michelle S. Spina" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Same here when I gave birth to Vernon (different hospital than the older
two). The hospital itself is kind of old and crummy, but when it came to
rooming-in, they were *fantastic*. The only time Vernon ever left the room
was to have a hearing screen done, and the only reason they didn't do it in
my room was because the older kids were there and there was too much noise
for it to be accurate. My mother went with him, and believe me, *she*
wouldn't have let anyone come within 10 feet of him with a bottle, LOL!

Another thing I loved about this hospital was that, when the nurse had
finished washing him, warming him, and swaddling him the first night, she
laid him right next to me in the hospital bed instead of in the bassinet.
Since it was 2am or so, I'm sure she realized we'd be sleeping together. And
she seemed to think that was the most natural thing in the world. In my
other hospital, they tended to frown on my sleeping with the babies, though
they didn't try to prevent me.


text:
"Charlotte M." <[email]> wrote in message
news:CUZW8.51746$[email]...
<snip>
lengths
day
The
fine
to
<snip>

Heh... He sounds like me and cleaning my house. I finally realized that
since I hate it so much and would rather work 3 hours extra per week than
clean, I'd hire someone to do it. Best decision I've ever made.

Sounds like a good place to throw $20 at a neighbor kid.... Or your own, if
you've got one old enough. Not worth fighting over.

<grin> If it's "his" job... it could come out of "his" money.... Ask him if
he'd rather mow the grass and keep the $20. If he'd rather spend the
$20...that's your answer.

Jen


author: Banty

text:
In article <CUZW8.51746$[email]>, "Charlotte says...
::snip::

::clapping and cheering::

"Ah, but the refugee family should be graaaateful.  After ALL, they have their
lives and they're in AMERICA."

(Which is true, but also would pretty callous for any of us to seriously say to
them(although I'd bet for these they are grateful beyond words) - but, in
extension, pretty much the same thing.) (That also was parody, in case anyone is
challenged as to these things...)

Yes - it can always be worse.  Yes, we should keep things in perspective.  But
that does *not* mean we shouldn't be dealing with, and can't discuss, all the
contingencies in our lives, large and small.  This "scheme of things" statement
much too often is used just to shut people down, and it's just plain rude.  It
goes right up there with the "how would you feel if he/she dies tomorrow"
statements grown children get should they breathe anything but tender feelings
about their elderly parents.

If someone is upset about something, large or small,  and needs to talk about
it, it is *not* as if they're telegraphing "I think this is the worst thing
possibly in the whole world!"  It is extremely condescending and insensitive to
react as if they had.

Banty