text:
On 25 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0800 Rich <[email]> wrote in message
<[email]>...

No person was identified as as the alleged perpetrator of the alleged
hate-crime, so no person's presumption of innocence was violated by that
omission.  I would have complained if the word had been omitted when
refering to a a person suspected of that crime, as I have done so, in many
cases of alleged rape, and other crimes allegedly committed by men which
have been discussed in this group.

But even if someone had been presumed guilty of the alleged hate-crime, and
I had not objected to it, that would not excuse *your* presumption of her
guilt.

No.  I think she should be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court
of law.  Clearly you don't.

Nothing, short of an immediate lynch-ing, would appear to you to be doing
something.

What am I posting like?

What do I claim soc.men posters post like?

That you presumed her guilty.

So you keep saying.  Seems to me that in a considerable number of Waldo's
"education stories" the false accuser was sanctioned.

Well let's see.  I've expressed no view one way or the other in this post.
In other posts I've said the opposite.

Clearly you're making up lies about me again.

Let's have a look, shall we?  The barriers I would have to an FRA conviction
are.

1.  That an FRA was made is proven beyond reasonable doubt.
2.  That the false accuser did not have a reasonable good faith belief that
    they were not making a false accusation.

The barriers I would have to a rape conviction are.

1.  That a non-consensual penetrative sexual act was committed is proven
    beyond reasonable doubt.
2.  That the accused did not have a reasonable good faith belief that the
    person was consenting.

Ooh.  Look!  The barriers are the same in either case.  I don't think they
are impossible, though I admit that they are high in both cases.  Of course,
antifeminists have no problem with the idea that rapes should be difficult
to prosecute.

I note that you have *for years* evaded the issues of whether a rape
defendent's reasonable belief in consent should be a defense.  Care to
express a view now?

what hyperbole?

She has the right to be presumed innocent.  Moreover the assumption of
guilty you are making here is *precisely* the kind of assumption you objected
to, in another post, when it's made against men.

It has nothing to do with the sex of the alleged wrongdoer, despite your
wish to cast it in such terms.  There was a case posted here some months ago
in which the police were digging body parts from a man's farm.  I objected
to people calling him a murderer without using the word 'alleged'.

You are the one at fault here, Rich.  And to be honest, it wasn't be such a
big deal.  All you had to do was put your hand up, and say 'mea culpa.  I'll
try not to do it again'.  Instead you tried to distract from your wrongdoing
by throwing a heap of false accusations in my direction.


author: Rich

subject: Re: Hate Crime Hoax At Claremont Colleges

text:
Daran <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Like a rape report on campus where no one is named, all men become
suspect. In this case where "the body of the vehicle was spray painted
with various racial, religious, and gender-based epithets", all white
men became suspect.

If the object of the exercise was to create hatred of white men, given
the scope and costs of the results, it would seem a resounding
success.

Further...

--------

The Claremont Police responded and classified this incident as a hate
crime. The Claremont Police will pursue a serious investigation of
this crime, and if any alleged perpetrators are arrested, they will
pursue the ultimate penalties under law. I have also asked every
single member of this community and of The Claremont Colleges to help
us solve this crime and to cooperate with the police investigation. I
announced to our students Tuesday evening that CMC will offer a
$10,000 reward to anyone who comes forward with information leading to
the solving of this crime.

A hate crime such as this one is the greatest imaginable affront to
everything that we stand for at CMC. Our community and our ability to
have discourse have been directly and violently attacked by conduct
and speech in an unconscionable act that was specifically targeted
against a faculty member. We cannot possibly carry on as a teaching
and learning community if persons physically threaten property and
person in a way that leaves no doubt that it was in response to
speech. We remain committed to maintaining a college community that
has zero tolerance for these types of incidents.

Students and others responded spontaneously and forcefully last
evening. They justifiably want Wednesday to be a day to gather to
respond to this event and earlier events at The Claremont Colleges.
The students have organized numerous events throughout the day on
Wednesday, including a sit-in on the North Quandrangle, and a
5-College rally on the CMC campus at 8:00 PM Wednesday night.

In light of these events, I have also directed that CMC cancel classes
today, and the other Claremont Colleges have also cancelled classes.
One never lightly cancels classes, for to do so in some way suggests
that we can be bullied by the perpetrators of such a heinous crime.
Yet, we need every single person in this community to come together,
to follow his or her conscience, and to start a process of regaining
control of our community. In this way, we can hope to tell the
perpetrators that they will in the end be defeated and repudiated.

-------

The costs of the events and canceled classes were over a millions
dollars, to be paid by the students of course.

I realize that to you, nothing of note happened. But those on campus
seemed to have a different take.

That a 'hate crime' had occurred on campus was indeed alleged,
regardless of whether anyone was named or not. The allegation is not
in itself proof that a 'hate crime' occurred. Or do you think this
like rape, where many t.r. posters claim that the allegation itself
proves the rape?

Presumption? Presumption means before the fact Daran. Presumption is
not a correct word here.

Let's walk through the events again.

1) She alleges a hate crime occurred (but it's presumed a fact by
everybody).

2) Because of the allegation, the police investigate.

3) The investigation finds that she did the deed herself.

It seems that to you that the results of a criminal investigation are
on par with an unsubstantiated allegation (which you will not label as
such).

Hate crime frauds, like false rape reports, have happened on campus
before Daran. Shall I research the last one I ran across? I guess that
to you, it will always be an allegation, so what seems lacking is a
point to doing so.

On a University in Hawaii, some women were upset at a professors
classes, so they accused him (with the help of a female faculty
member) of repeated rapes. When all was said and done and the
professor found innocent of all wrongdoing, what punishment do you
think the university gave the female faculty?

It was horrible, they gave her the fast track to tenure.

I suspect that this woman will be similarly punished, your fantasies
notwithstanding.

BTW, your fantasy world is very disturbed, the fact that you imply
that your sick ravings come from anywhere but your own head is even
more disturbing. You are really fucked in the head Daran. Get help.
Maybe JJ can provide some medicinal alcohol. Use lots.

Like you claim soc.men post. Do you have reading problems as well?

Read your own posts.

You got everything screwed up Daran, nothing I can do about it.

So you say. Do you think three days garbage pickup excessive?

[...]

You clean forgot the word "malice" and that it also need be proven.

Of course, the woman's unsubstantiated word is sufficient for a rape
conviction, so in fact the burden of proof for a FRA is far higher
than for a rape.

You forgot the magic words 'malice must be proven'. And you also
forgot that a rape need not be proven to have occurred in a rape case.
But you think they need be proven for a FRA conviction.

In reality the burden of proof is not present for rape cases, and the
defense is arbitrarily limited by rape shield laws, which in effect
prevent the accuser's credibility from being questioned, and the rape
kit results presumption as resulting from the rape being called into
question.

Rape trials should follow the same rules as every other felony Daran,
they do not. Rape is treated differently. Odd you don't recall this
ever being an issue.

Do you think that rape trials and FRA trials should follow the same
rules?

You know, I don't recall that this has ever come up.

I also note that in many places, rape is a strict liability crime (for
which the accuser's unsubstantiated allegation is sufficient for
conviction). No actual crime, or even sex need have taken place. Some
might have issues with this, in the sense of justice not being served.
Some, but not Daran.

Maybe you don't see this as hyperbole, my mistake...

DARAN> Nothing, short of an immediate lynch-ing, would appear to
DARAN> you to be doing something.

Or would you care to substantiate these ravings of yours as my view.
In fact, I insist.

And of course, who but myself would see this as hyperbole?

D> This of course, is ridiculous.  There should be no inquiry
D> or time for reflection.  The instant a question is raised
D> about the truth of an allegation, the lying bitch should be
D> sacked and tossed in jail without further ado.

The assignment of presumption is all yours.

Do you object to the use of the words 'victim'? Come to think of it
you've objected to the word 'accuser' in the past, prefering 'alleged
victim'.

So you always say.

Your response shows otherwise.

I think you have many wires crossed here Daran, and you cannot tell
the difference between the results of a criminal investigation (with
two witnesses) and an unsubstantiated allegation. It was an
unsubstantiated allegation of a hate crime which started this, and you
refuse to correctly identify her original allegation correctly.

Let me ask you this Daran, for the sake of discussion only, assume she
did as the investigation found. What do you think should happen?

And note, college campuses normally sanction men who are accused of
rape, not convicted. College campuses are not exactly like the rest of
the world.

So what would you say the university should do (before and after the
trial, if there is one)?

What do you think the police should do (again, before and after the
trial, if there is one)? Should she be locked up waiting for trial,
unless she can raise bail? That's what normally happens to men accused
of rape. If they fould some white man had done the deed, it seems
certain that he would be locked up unless he could raise bail. Should
she recieve the same treatment?

And how bad do you think fabricating a hate crime is? Do you think
that it's a hate crime itself? Or like a FRA, do you think it a
misdermeanor at best, nothing to worry about. Say, a three day garbage
pickup penalty like a FRA?

Please elucidate.

Rich


author: V

text:
"Rich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
news:<[email]>...
hate
the

It reminds me of profiling for arabics, when one of our own citizens was a
terrorist (McVeigh).
It is not always what it appears to be. It is usually the idea that the crime
is against the opposite of our race, sex and gender, but that is totally not
true.
V


text:
"V" <[email]> wrote in message news:<A_89c.867$[email]>...

You know, there are some curious things about the McVeigh case. They
razed the site to the gound with no investigation. Death cases are
supposed to go through years of appeals (hopefully to allow the
innocent to prove their innocence), McVeigh bought it in a few years.
Other than the original trial, there seemed to be no appeals. Also I
and many others question that a fertilzer bomb could cause such
devestation, much less from as far away from the building as it was.

Reach your own conclusions, but it don't all add up.

Nontheless, had such profiling continued, perhaps 9/11 would be just
another day. Would you prefer that V? Or do you like today's reality
better?

I agree, especially about OK. But doubtless for reasons different than
yours.

Tell that to the organizers at the University. I doubt they'd believe
you.

Rich


author: Daran

text:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 06:16:00 GMT V <[email]> wrote in message
<A_89c.867$[email]>...

This is not really comparable, since in the Oklahoma bombing case there was
no doubt that a terrorist atrocity had been committed.  In the case at hand
there is an allegation that a hate-crime had been committed, and a
counter-allegation that the allegation was a fraud.


text:
"Rich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<A_89c.867$[email]>...
message
in
crime
cases
conduct.
that

The McVeigh case was a big "huh?" to me. Have you ever read the book (Turner
Diaries) they said was the blue print for his actions (I do not think he
worked alone, obviously).

Agreed.

You know Rich, I would have wished anything in this world for 9/11 to be an
big nightmare that one could wake up from. In my above post, I did not say
anything about negative or positive for profiling. Do I agree with it?
Personally, yes. Legally, no.

What University is that? The facts are in black and white.
Read the UCR stats.
There is more black on black and white on white crimes.
Then the gender changes....but that is another thread! ;-)
V


text:
Daran <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

There was no counter-allegation.

There was an investigation. Investigation is not a synomym for
allegation.

The investigation turned up two witnesses who saw her deface her own
car.

You may agree or disgree, but do not invent fictitous allegations.

Funny though, it's bad ju-ju to doubt a woman who claims she was
raped, or that a hate crime was committed against her. And it seems
even worse ju-ju to believe the results of an investigation or the man
she accuses of raping her.

No matter what a woman does, you have to assume her innocence. What if
she's tried and found guilty Daran (and given the typical public
service punishment)?
Do you then assume that she's been falsely convicted?

It seems that innocence till guilt is proven applies to women, but
it's really innocence no matter what's been proven.

Rich


text:
"V" <[email]> wrote in message news:<ciL9c.1076$[email]>...

[...]

I've not read the book, but unless his accomplices were the Klingon
empire, or perhaps a lobe android with a phaser, the fact remains that
a fertilizer bomb does not look anywhere near sufficient to have
caused the damage seen.

And that being the case, coupled with the unimagimably swift
execution, all alone leads me to wonder if he was actually guilty.

I don't really have any problems when it involves foreign nationals,
especially when they celebrated 9/11. These people are not our friends
(do I get consideration for understatement of the year?).

The one where the apparent hate crime occurred, you know, the subject
of this thread?

Say what?

Rich


author: Spartakus

subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
"J" <[email]> wrote:

Shorter Karen M. Berkon: "When women in Alabama have the same
reproductive rights and choices as women in New York, I will feel
sooooo oppressed!"


subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
"james g. keegan jr." <[email]> wrote:

Why, it's almost as if he was lobbying for a

*gasp*

fairness doctrine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
On Jan 13, 7:40 pm, Spartakus <[email]> wrote:

...but appeared in the original post by "J".  So wear the hat
yourself.

And my role was to remind them of that.

Even if they hadn't appeared in the original article, anyone without
an ideological ax to grind could have figured these consequences out
by reading the original wording of FOCA.

Crowing victory again, capitalizing on a stupid comment that anyone
with  a little circumspection could have avoided.  But, you are
spoiled rotten by the huge preponderance of people on your side in the
abortion newsgroups, so common sense, circumspection, intelligence,
diligence, etc. and even honesty are optional for you.

Peter Nyikos


subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
On Jan 13, 10:36 am, Spartakus <[email]> wrote:

That's not the relevant factor, twit. The feeling oppressed comes from
the restrictions of which I wrote in my responses to the two blokes
who followed up to J before you did.


subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
[email] wrote:

which had not yet appeared when I posted *my* response, asshat.

Who in their right mind would expect another poster to anticipate his
response to other posters before posting???

You're a gift that keeps on giving, but more like herpes than a
restaurant discount card.


author: james g. keegan jr.

subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
Spartakus <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

i've pretty much decided that it doesn't matter if nyikos2 is actually
the peter nyikos we knew so many years ago. if it is, it has degenerated
fairly substantially. the current version regularly posts things that
the oroginal would have been ashamed to be associated with.

the only consistency between the two that i can see is that both the
original and the current version regularly defended some of the worst
scumbags; perhaps as a way to deflect attention from his own failings.


subject: Re: What FOCA Really Does

text:
[email] wrote in news:9ed2a12d-467f-4572-9875-235a2841a147
@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

[...]

peter, you're sounding as if you feel very much inferior to spartacus.


subject: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
First I get a virus sent to one of my emails addressed from Susan
Maneck last week and now the baha'i cultists are hacking into my yahoo
emails sending emails with my signature all over the place. This is a
sophisticated criminal hacking operation and it comes from no other
domain but baha'idom itself. How desperate are you people?

If anyone has received emails from me today other than from the
wahidazal and freethought addresses, it did not come from me.

Down with the criminal ZioNazi baha'i hackers!

Wahid Azal


author: Dave Fiorito

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Actually Wahid hackers the world over love to harvest email addresses
to use in forged headers.  I doubt there is any real conspiracy at
work here.

Cheers,

Dave


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Dave Fiorito) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Trust me, there is.

Wahid


author: Steve Marshall

subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
Dave Fiorito wrote:

Perhaps Wahid will listen to you, but I doubt it. He's been a broken
record on this issue for years, while at the same time excessively
cross-posting. Not as abad as Errol, though.

What's that Wahid, I can't hear you?


author: Paul Hammond

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Dave Fiorito) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Dave,

The computer-literate people here have explained that to
the Holy Chicken time after time - the last time being
just last week when he started getting the effects of
someone's virus.

Doesn't make any difference - he still likes to amuse us
all with his conspiracy theories.

Still, what would I know?  I'm in the pay of Haifa!

Palu, the thrice-destroyed.


subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
Steve Marshall <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Steve,

If he listens - cool by me.  If not - no problem.  My new mantra is
"say what you gotta say, then let it go".  Its not an easy thing to do
but I am trying.

Cheers,

Dave


author: Cal E. Rollins

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Palu,

Be careful about that in the pay of Haifa business.  You know what Freud
and Jung say about humor and the kernel of truth within.  Plus you saw
what happened to our Suzy with those guys.  Can't trust 'em as far as
you can throw 'em. And don't forget that thing about loose lips...
--Cal


author: Sufi Baha'i

subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
Remember when he said his vanity press publisher was poisoned by
Baha'is and then the publisheer came on and said it ain't true.  He's
delusional.

[email] (Dave Fiorito) wrote in message news:<[email]>...


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Cal E. Rollins) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

They give good head?

Palu, the Rolls Royce driver.


author: Finnegan's Wake

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Cal E. Rollins" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

No!  What did they say?

That whole "in the pay of Haifa business" is actually a shrewd observation
that Haifa is so impotent and its adherents so disillusioned it would
consider anything, even bribery, to try to put its faltering message across.

It's called "martyrdom" or "sacrifice for the Cause" - never fails to
attract suckers!

Loose lips ... battered face when the winds blow!


author: Mr. Bad Judgement

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Dave Fiorito wrote:

The times have been hard w/o Quinn the Eskimo.

- Mr. Bad


author: Susan Maneck

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Dear Dave,

Paul writes that because Nima went through three rounds of saying he would
destroy Paul yet the man is still with us.

warmest, Susan

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
[email] (Sufi Baha'i) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Oh, dammit Sufi, you've made him go and post all that cal
all over again!

Paul


subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
He went to Beufort amongst a group of baha'is and then sent me the
following email.

From: "Yamacraw Press" <[email]>  Add to Address Book
To: "Nima Hazini" <[email]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:39:27 -0500
Subject: We will triumph

I am really sick, effendi.

I think somebody poisoned me.

There is blood coming out of my ass, man.

I will go to my father's old doctor in the morning and get straight.

It is heavy metal poisoning. (Probably mercury). I feel weak and
nauseous. Since this morning, I have been puking and crapping blood. I
believe that the poison was in a cup of tea I drank in Beaufort on
Sunday.

Who did it? I suspect the CIA, not the AO.

Just put it this way, bro., it is very hard to kill niggers.

We will triumph.

I believe I was poisoned in Beaufort, SC on Sunday afternoon when we
had the event at my father's grave at the foot of the National
Cemetary.

They cannot kill me, Nima. They tried, and I am suffereing right now.
But my suffering is momentary.  But I must be honest and say that I
have never been so sick before. My hands and neck are swollen. My
figers are stiff. But I will be better tomorrow.

This is not the first time that the enemy has tried to kill me.

Tomorrow, I will be strong again.

--Bill


subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
I don't think Dave was here when that happened.

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Why, are you looking to get one? Ask Steve.

I doubt cockney/limey bartenders qualify for anything other cleaning
urinals and vomit.


author: Hess

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
across.

where did you get this one doomhead?do you think if  Bahai's fallowed you
then they would have achieved their religious objectives, such as, would
peace ... etc? would there be a moment that we could hope your opinion were
not under influence of alcohol? could you tell us how long you remained
listed as Bahai?


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Nothing could be farther from the truth.  I support my Faith because I
believe in Baha'u'llah and this is what He asked me to do.

Faith my friend, faith.

Cheers,

Dave


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
No, what it is is and indication of the paranoia and delusions which permeates
so many of the dissidents.

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Dave,

Susan says Paul is still with us even though he has been threatened with
destruction.  Well you'll notice that he is merely a shadow of his
former self.  And as a good reader and interpreter of Holy Writ you
realize that we don't take threats or prophecy literally in the Faith.
Prime example is the fact that "Ere the Year 2000" didn't mean that.  It
meant something else that will be as clear as the noon-day sun in
future.  Right?  Plus when you take on a moniker it reflects the kernal
of truth.  Right?  --Cal


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Ya, the fool is still around. BUT compare the self-assured, smug palu
of two years ago to the one today. He is thrice three times destroyed.
He is widely recognized as a thug, among the most detested individuals
in the whole of baha'i cyberspace, a liar and obviously a cultist on
the payroll, not to mention that his views are so far on the fringe
Right of you cultist bushwhackers that all his protestations ring
transparently hollow. Yup! I think he is destroyed alright, and all
thanks to me ;-)

Wahid


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Susan Maneck " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

If that's the case you wanna come over and radiate a little of that heat to
effect savings in my fuel bill as winter inexorably approaches?  I could
give you a corner to stand in whilst shedding that excess warmth!


subject: Re: Desperate Wahid flailing

text:
[email] (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

No.  I missed that little episode.  Sad.

Cheers,

Dave


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

You sound very bitter, Holy Chicken.

How long has it been now since the last girlfriend walked?

Palu, the Rolls Royce driver.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Dave Fiorito" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
observation
across.

That's what I said ... suckers!

"When one of us asked could he die
 Without having duly repented?
 Says Larry, that's all in my eye,
 And first by the clergy invented
 To get a fat bit for themselves."

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiLARYSTR.html


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Susan Maneck wrote:
I'd thought it was a story that Nima started, for example, that you and
I were being paid by the AO.  It is a rumour borne of the desperation of
a few critics.

- Mr. Bad


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Susan Maneck " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
observation
across.
permeates

I thought you said that I wasn't delusional ... and this is a response by
you to a statement of mine.  As for paranoia ... do you really think that
the wimps of the AO could induce paranoia in anybody, never mind the Old
Reaper.  Wash-head has more capability than the entire AO paraded on a
barrack square ... and he can't reap the Reaper.  So what chance does your
lot of has-beens have?  Sweet FA if you ask me!

Now we know and have seen evidence that you work under instruction of the
Counsellors.  Are you paid for it?  Probably not because you're just not
good enough for the job in hand.

And so, dear lady, we have proceeded to, quite adequately, take the piss out
of that pathetic organisation whose poodle you are.  It hasn't the brains to
try to take out its critics with well placed brown envelopes as a last
desperate measure.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Cal E. Rollins) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Right!

Another laugh a minute story about me from Cal!

Your nafs must be getting really dark these days, right?

Paul


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

See what I mean, Dave?  You couldn't get a scriptwriter
to do a funnier Holy Chicken impression than this!

Basically, he talked some big talk, and I called his bluff, that
was back in April if memory serves.

Oh, "Palu" is specially for Capn Couragous Nemo too - I typo-d
my name once, and he made a big deal out of it, so now I wear
my label with pride.

Actually, I'm usually "twice destroyed", when I'm not
"Nemo's nemesis" - but on the model of the "thrice great Hermes",
I sometimes think "thrice destroyed" has a better ring to
it.

Palu, defeating Nima on a daily basis.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
What was it you were saying about "logical argumentation", David?

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
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To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Paul Hammond) wrote in message

5 minutes ago and straight into my bedroom. What 'bout you? When was
the last time you even had a girl other than a relative under your own
roof??


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
I know. And in the next post you made a liar of me!

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
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To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Susan Maneck " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

He was actually referring to me.


author: Starr*

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Is temporary marriage upheld in your book? How many contracts can you
have at once? Just curious. Obviously it's not a concern for Palua.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Freethought110" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Talk about a quickie! Five minutes later he's back at the keyboard!  That's
what I call "Performance!"

A gentleman never boasts of his conquests ... neither does anybody else who
actually has some conquests!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Steve Marshall" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Perish the thought!  Mind you, it is a ridiculous rumour!  Would you pay
Susie to do your PR?

Mebbe it isn't a rumour ... the Grumpies are that stoopid!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Susan Maneck " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You don't need me to do that!  You're a big girl now ..you do it all by
yourself!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
You keep changing the subject in the middle of an argument, but at least you're
not delusional.

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
If you don't have something intelligent to say, please don't say anything at all.

Wahid

[email] (Starr*) wrote in message news:<[email]>...


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Starr*" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...

Oh Sittaarr, even if it is not upheld in his book why should you care! your
love should not be dictated by dark ink. I shall illumine you after the
proper lifts are surgically implemented.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Starr*" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...

I haven't told Palua about the five minutes ... it might make her jealous!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" wrote:

Well, they made a dog's breakfast of throwing Alison out, so I'm
inclined to agree with you.

And those cheques I get must come from somewhere.


author: Ian:

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Amen to that, though I am not sure it is always lying, sometimes its
just pure stupidiity.

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:36:02 +0100, "Finnegan's Wake" <[email]>
wrote:


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Susan Maneck " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Oh!  You mean you can't keep up with me!

True!  I know that Bahaidom is going down the tubes and will continue to do
so unless its progress is arrested.

[email]


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Now now, Nima.  Star appears to be the only friend willing to
stick by you through your times of trouble. Is this any
way to treat her?

You haven't had anything intelligent to say for the past two years,
yet I don't see Star lecturing you...

Paul


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Hess" <[email]> wrote in message
news:qqAad.372$[email]...
your

Are you getting power assisted hydraulics in your genitalia?


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Oh Dermod!  Surely you jest!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Steve Marshall" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

They make a hames of just about everything they turn their hands to!

Mebbe they are returning all of Alison's contributions made over the years
she wasn't a BIGS.  With all contributions being private and confidential
they must have records of them all somewhere.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
do
doomhead you, being at the bottom of the waste, aren't positioned to see
anything that far above. keep crawling.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
doomhead, I told you times and times again, you are ugly pervert drunken
idiot, I have no interest in you. and again go to caldull and palu poodle
they would to be shagged with you.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Paul Hammond" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
own
jealous!

Me jest?  Never!  Sure even Wash-head has declaimed as holy writ that
there's as much wit in me as there is intelligence in Haifa!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Hess" <[email]> wrote in message news:<PQ3cd.6041$[email]>...

5 days it took him to come up with this crap!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Yeah - but who would ever take what Wash-head says without a
bucket of salt?

Paul


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Paul Hammond" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<PQ3cd.6041$[email]>...
care!
the
poodle

crap appears to be all your consuming.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Paul Hammond" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<PQ3cd.6041$[email]>...
care!
the
poodle

It's becoming increasingly difficult for him to be unimaginative.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Star apparently.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Hess" <[email]> wrote in message
news:zXDcd.9996$[email]...
after
drunken

Well!  It's all that you're presenting!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
after
drunken

last I heard you had headed to NZ, with the desire to meet with stiffen.
apparently he had you refused. gush, how ugly you must be.


author: TahirihStarr*

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Dave Fiorito) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Aside from Myself, Wahid was the only one here willing to stop the
hypocrisy by speaking to Truth, re-establishing the facts, and
starting the Second Cycle of Truth for the day in which we are living.
We carry that Truth.

Tahirih Starr*
1st and 17th


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
hehe doomhead, honestly sometimes I take pity on you, for all your idiocy.
Of course I present crap, you dumb.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Hess" <[email]> wrote in message
news:n_Dcd.9998$[email]...

You heard wrong!  Obviously your sources are not very good!

I've never refused the line ... never had to ... never come under pressure
to do it!

Ah yes!  My eternal tragedy!  Still ... to look on the bright side ... I've
got a whole brain and it works as intended ... where you're entirely
brainless and a fool!  On balance, I'd rather be ugly!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (TahirihStarr*) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I have read Wahid's version of the truth and find it lacking.  Sorry.


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
I've
dumbhead, whomever had told your ugliness precedes anything, had lied to you
big time. your damn ugly and smell worse than stiphen's goat which he'd
preferred to your fart sniffing brown-nosiness. the dilemma is that not only
ugly and foul, yet as well dumb and dull.


author: QurratulAyn*

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
[email] (Dave Fiorito) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

When you read my book, you will see the Whole picture more clearly.

Tahirih*


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Hess" <[email]> wrote in message
news:58Vcd.485$[email]...
stiffen.
pressure
you
only

Hessy - do you speak to all the girls like this?  No wonder you go home
alone every night!


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Randy Burns" <[email]> wrote in message
news:sPTcd.8020$232.1760@trnddc09...

Have you a copy that you're anxious to sell?


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
"Finnegan's Wake" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
doomhead, give it up, I don't consider you anything near a girl, you
stinking drunken double-crosser traitor.


author: Randy Burns

subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
Damn, wish I had a copy of the hardcover, its very rare.

Randy


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
I'd much rather have that bittersweet chocolate bar. Is it on the way, Steve?

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


subject: "Chocolate" dipped?

text:
"Randy Burns"  wrote:

Supply is only one half of the equation. what's the demand like?

Excrement-ripple icecream is rare (in the West, at least), but I don't
see anyone exploiting that gap in the "market".


subject: Re: Desperate baha'i cultist hackers!!!

text:
On 19 Oct 2004 01:45:51 GMT, [email] (Susan Maneck ) wrote:

No, instead, I'm trying to figure out how to transport some special
ice-cream.

All the ingredients are home-made.


subject: Re: "Chocolate" dipped?

text:
"Steve Marshall" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Sounds like something that Hessy might be interested in!


author: Jan Drew

subject: Court docs: Father was 'aggravated' when he shook his baby

text:
http://news.newstimeslive.com/storyprint.php?id=85467

Excerpt:

I witnessed my mother be abused by her husband when I was a kid and I also
was on Ritalin for ADHD. I think all of these things stressed me out and put
me in a place that caused me to injure my son."


author: cathyb

subject: Re: Court docs: Father was 'aggravated' when he shook his baby

text:
Jan Drew wrote:

Gosh. I wonder if that will be Alan Yurko's next excuse for killing a
baby.


author: Mark Probert

text:
Jan Drew wrote:

Horseshit.

Using medications is not an excuse.


author: CWatters

text:
"Jan Drew" <[email]> wrote in message
news:LCLhg.47197$[email]...
put

More than once it would seem...

"In the affidavit in support of Stellaï¿½s arrest, Stella told police that
"all of the accidents that happened to my baby were accidental, I never
really wanted to hurt him. There have been times when I hit his head into
cabinets and doors but it wasnï¿½t intentional."

yeah right.


author: Mark

text:
CWatters wrote:

After the first couple times this father "hit his (son's) head into
cabinets and doors", don't you think he'd *intentionally* try to be a
little more careful?

Mark, MD


author: dragonsgirl

text:
You can bet your butt that if he gets away with it, that will become the
standard excuse for criminal behavior by all 'rittie tykes' of the 90's.

"cathyb" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
also
put


author: [redacted]

subject: Transforming negative thoughts to positive

text:
Hi all,

I have noticed over the past while that whenever a spontaneous
negative thought comes to mind, I tend to subconsciously recognize its
negativity and reprimand myself for it mentally.  But upon reflection
i noticed that the reprimand in itself was another negative response
to the original thought.  How should I try to react to these negative
thoughts, or should I just not react to them at all?  The reason I ask
is because I'm uncertain of whether I should simply not give the
thoughts attention or if I should be trying to transform them into
positive states of mind.

Thanks,

Rich


subject: Re: Transforming negative thoughts to positive

text:
On Aug 2, 11:14 am, [email] wrote:

You will react just you will react. Sorry, there is no choice. The
negative thoughts
are a reaction, the negative thoughts about negative thoughts are a
reaction.
No surprise. So this happens. OK, no reason to freak out or ignore it
per say...
Look at it. This is part of who you are, part of your intelligence and
part of your
wisdom and part of your anxiety etc etc. Reactions happen. You might
have a
micro-secound to choose how you relate with your reactions - that
little
flash of a moment is where you have choices. Own-up to whatever
happens -
don't say "this is bullshit, it isn't mine" or "this is wisdom fom
above greater than mine" -
whatever happens is 'you' and you have to live with 'you' for all your
life so get to know
'you'...eventually you can act together with your 'you' without a
saftey-net or
secound-guessing - but that takes familiarty - letting be and letting
go....

  The reason I ask

you'll be uncertain. take chances. it's an adventure. be ready to
dance and improvise.

   - n.


author: sun wheel

text:
[email] schrieb:
Tell an example of your bad thoughts.

Greetings,
sun wheel


text:
Usually you should have a positive alterative reaction, born from a
wise more meditative kind of perspective. Then just choose the
positive view.


text:
[email] schrieb:
If you think e.g. about a colleague, who is annoying you, try to imagine
him as the "found lunch" for you.

Greetings,
sun wheel


text:
On Aug 2, 1:14 pm, [email] wrote:

Just accept the thought as it occurs, be with it, and delve into it
deeply (why, what, etc, etc).  Understand it thoroughly.  With
understanding, much becomes transformed on its own.

~ Eric Putkonen


author: NotHimAgain

subject: Re: christians vs other groups in relief effort

text:
this account.>

Isn't Bush supposedly a born-again Christian?

Why wasn't the main reason for Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein and liberate
its people? Why did they have to come up with a story about WMD's? (These
are all retorical questions by the way).

Why didn't this "family values/Christian" administration
simply just want to help?

It's called OIL and you people are in denial if you think it is for any
other reason.

Still no WMD's.

"reincarkroach" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: kill

text:
Keep it honest now.  Bush needed a reason to sell to the left wings.  WMD
was it.  They're not going to vote for a war because Saddam was a pain in
the ass, strategic position, oil, and liberation of the people.
Unfortunatly it didn't pan out like he thought.
"NotHimAgain" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ho%Ad.4763$[email]...
on


text:
In other words, he lied.
Is that being a good Christian?

Remind me how many people voted for him again??

"kill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:nD%Ad.8809$[email]...
liberate
(These
of


author: R Steenerson

text:
Yes, Christians are the ones that would help first.

   With Regard to the WMD comment.  Iraq and Saddam Hussein had WMD in the
past and he had the will to use them.  After all, he used them against the
Kurds in the north in the 1980s and killed 100s of thousands of people.
    Maybe Saddam and his allies have hidden WMD somewhere like Syria, or
another country  After all, it took the U.S. a year to find one guy Saddam
Hussein and they still have not found Osama.
    The U.S. has made a lot of mistakes with understanding foreign cultures,
examples would be Vietnam trying to defeat communism, and Afghanistan when
they were dropping American style army food and the people there did not
know what to do with it mostly.

"NotHimAgain" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3J%Ad.4769$[email]...
WMD
in
least
any
and
true
the
suffering
and
to
shot).
least


author: Bush is the AntiChrist!!

text:
R Steenerson wrote:

Of course, the first thing they would want to do is establish a
missionary and force the natives to convert in order to be treated/eat.

I remember Pat Robertson went to Africa and told some kid that he would
give him some bread if he accepted Jesus Christ.

I have never liked Evangelicans since.


text:
That is ridiculous!

"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: George Peatty

text:
On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 04:38:40 -0500, "Bush is the AntiChrist!! "
<[email]> wrote:

Indeed.  Rather surprising in view of your nick ..


text:
On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 04:38:40 -0500, "Bush is not  the AntiChrist!! "
<[email]> wrote:

Praise the Lord!


author: Sunny

text:
"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You prefer Islam's "Accept Islam or lose your head" ?


text:
"R Steenerson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:c_TBd.181280$[email]...

Not really, this is ridiculous :
 "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <[email]


author: Fredric L. Rice

text:
George Peatty <[email]> wrote:

And murder another 100,000 innocent Muslims.

---
Stop Elmer Fudd web site: http://www.ElmerFudd.US/
Covert text file server: http://www.notserver.com/

"And by the way - about the name you keep calling us -- "rightards".  Very
nice of your liberal sorry fucked up ass to come up with a name that debases
mentally disabled persons." -- Charlie Wolf


author: possum

text:
"Sunny" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ew%Bd.100769$[email]...
it's 2nd January 2005!  this stuff is so passe.

psm


text:
"Fredric L. Rice" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
LOL!


author: George W. Cherry

text:
"Fredric L. Rice" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

A guy went into a bar in Crawford, Texas and was
pleased and excited to see Bush and Rumsfeld at
a corner table having a brew. With permission from
the secret service and a nod from Bush, he was
allowed to approach them.

Rumsfeld to Bush: Let's ask this gentleman what
he thinks about our new plan for the Middle East.

Bush: Okay.

Rumsfeld: We have a new plan. We're going to
kill 150 million Muslims and a Christian woman
with big tits.

Man: (aghast) Why do you want to kill a Christian
woman with big tits?

Rumsfeld to Bush: See, I told you that no one gives
a damn about 150 million Muslims.

George


subject: Re: How many Orthodox Baha'is are there today?

text:
Darrick Evenson wrote:

Darrick,

It has been my experience that The Faith tends to attract multiple
family members, that is, it is not unusual to for there to be first and
second degree relatives who have taught each other The Faith.  It is
also my experience that a great many sans Guardian Baha'is covertly
correspond with Orthodox Baha'is and profess a clear understanding of
the necessity for the continuing Guardianship, but fearing censure and
ostracism and the disruption in their personal lives, overtly make no
move in this direction.  A parallel experience would be the
understanding of some Jews of my acquaintance who have a relatively
clear understanding of Christ's position, but make no move in that
direction for the same reasons listed above.

I think you get the picture Darrick.  So the question might be, when
will the Baha'is supporting the continuing Guardianship (i.e. closted
Orthodox Baha'is so to speak)stand up and voice their allegiance.
Michael


text:
The Mormons are now at about 12.5 million, the Baha'is counting all
factions are at about 4 million (some say 7) and both religions began
somewhere around 1850. Different management styles?

That could be.  However both are doing very well, for new religions
that is.


text:
I've talked about this with Mormons [and anti-Mormons] in their news
group.  One thing that is happening is that when someone joins the
church this is reported to where ever the records are kept.  But when
someone stops coming to church there is no event to report.  Or maybe
no enthusiasm to report it.  So yes, the numbers do end up being
exagerated.  But I think this same things happen in many organizations.


text:
Thanks All Bad, That might be a factor.  On the other hand I could see
that Jews and Muslims, or people who have had a bad experience with
Christianity might be more attracted to the Baha'is.


author: Robert Clifton

text:
darrickevenson

I agree! You are about as curious as they come. ;)
If you really want to know call Marilyn and ask her.
Do you mean how many in the U.S.: Aftrica: India: Australia: Central
America: or where? There is at least one in China whom I know
personally. I know another in North Korea. (Well actually she is out
of country at the moment.)
What ever the enrolled number I'll bet dollars to donuts it is not
seven million.
Do you have an accurate count of Mormans? Just a rhetorical question
as I'm not even curious about the number itself, just wondering if you
actually counted them.
According to Baha'u'llah there are roughly six billion Baha'is. Each
one of us is in a different stage of spiritual development. Take you
for instance. You have one gigantic load of prejudices to get rid of
before you will understand the numbers games. Even at that you are
much farther along the path toward perfection than say, oh, some
Darfurians.

Let me know what you find out?

Robert


text:
Darrick Evenson

Thank you Darrick:
It will take me a bit of time to get used to civil direct responses
such as yours. My sincere thanks for cutting the crap I invited you to
use.

My take is that since Baha'is are to associate with 'all religions'
then we are all Baha'is at some level or other. That makes 6 billion,
or so. The task at hand is to uniformly accept each other where ever we
are on the spiritual continuum.
That does not mean that we will agree on anything else, particularly
about who is qualified to be enrolled by which group.
Interesting factoid:
The Mormons are now at about 12.5 million, the Baha'is counting all
factions are at about 4 million (some say 7) and both religions began
somewhere around 1850. Different management styles?

Robert


author: Mr. All Bad

text:
[email] wrote:

The Mormon claims are a bit more modest, akin to Hasidic w/in Judaism.

- Mr. All Bad


author: Susan Maneck

text:
Dear Steve,

Yeah, pretty much that is what happens in the Baha'i community as well. The
morale of the story is, all statistics lie.

warmest, Susan

http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email]


text:
[email] wrote:

Yeah.

I was alluding to the divergence angles.  LDS is a Christian religion.
Baha'i is independent, breaking away from Islam.

When someone looks at joining LDS, if they were a Christian, they remain
a Christian.  If someone looks at joining Baha'i, and they were a
Christian, even though their fondness of Blessed Jesus may be growing,
they are leaving Christianity behind.

I'm not sure if you got that or not, so I thought I'd try to break it
down as far as the relative claims between Joseph Smith and Baha'u'llah,
and what I see as the implications for the 'would be' followers.

- Mr. All Bad


text:
Thanks Susan,  One other thing I noticed at alt.religion.mormon is that
the anti's have a kind of boilerplate type statement which goes like
this: "The Mormon's [or whoever] claim that they have so many members
but not all are really core members."  But then the standard of a "core
member" is so high that very few members of any church would meet it.
Like really tything 10% of your income, or attending church twice a
week every week.


text:
[email] wrote:
Sure, they'd be more attracted to Baha'i than to LDS.  However, if they
had an issue w/ their Orthodox synagog, they'd be more likely to check a
Conservative one, or a Reformed Temple, than to look at LDS or Baha'i.
If they were disillusioned with their school of Islam, they'd be more
likely to look at a different one, than to leave Islam for Baha'i.

You can call me "Pat" for short.  Just don't say that I'm not all bad; I am.

- Mr. All Bad


author: Darrick Evenson

text:
The LDS Church counts all it's "Members" including babies (a person
cannot technically became a Mormon until baptized at age 8, but the
Church counts the children of Members; whether the Members go to
Church or not). It is now about 12.5 million, and the Church counts
everyone: active, inactive, people baptized at 8 but who have never
returned, and even children (under age 8) of baptized Members; even
those who have joined other churches but who have not removed from
names from Church rolls.

[email] (Robert Clifton) wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: Finnegan's Wake

text:
"Susan Maneck " <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
The

Especially those that emanate from ... em! er! official bahai sources!?!


author: Public Servant

subject: Polls:  Christians Have Liberal Views But Don't Realize It

text:
Years ago, the Christians in the South were solidly for labor -- for
the Democrats.

They voted a straight party ticket for the Democrats for decades from
one end of the Bible belt to the other.

Then the rich (Republicans) came up with a very expensive way to get
them in under their corrupt tent.  It was called "The Southern
Strategy." They just used Christian radio and leaders like Jerry
Falwells "Moral Majority" in an image-making technique so powerful
even God's angels are probably fooled.

But when you sit Christians down and ask them what they believe about
policy issues, polls repeatedly show that their views are liberal.

Liberal approaches are "super majority issues," said Dr. Eric
Alterman, a columnist for the Nation Magazine, a professor of English
and journalism, at Brooklyn College, City University of New York, and
a professor of journalism at the CUNY Graduate School of Journalism. I
found this when looking at "a series of polling data that goes way
back and focuses on the same question," he said.

Dr. Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize-winning economist at Princeton
University and columnist for the New York Times says something
similar: "When self proclaimed moderates are questioned about their
views on actual policy issues, those views turn out to be
indistinguishable from self-proclaimed liberals."

Moreover, Dr. Krugman quotes Adlai Stevenson saying, "The Democrats
are the truly conservative party in the country. It's the party
dedicated to conserving all that is best and building solidly and
safely on these foundations.

"The Republicans, by contrast, are behaving like the radical party --
the party of the reckless and embittered, bent on dismantling
institutions which have been built solidly into our social fabric."

Alterman says Chrisitians stopped calling themselves liberal after
conservative billionaries spent "an enormous investment of hundreds of
millions of dollars ... to devalue and dishonor and delegitimate the
term liberal."

Misunderstandings about Democrats are rampant. In one Sunday School
class I attended, the teacher said, "The left doesn't understand us.
In fact, they don't even believe in God." She is so very wrong.

Approximately 72 percent of those teaching at American universities
and colleges are liberal and 15 percent are conservative, according to
1999 data from the North American Academic Study Survey which polled
1,643 full-time faculty at 183 four-year schools.

So what is a liberal? Franklin D. Roosevelt was instrumental in
defining its contemporary concept as he carved out his New Deal to
counteract staggering unemployment, poverty, stock prices losing their
value and other problems during the Great Depression.

At this time there were grotesque inequalities in wealth and power, as
we are once again seeing. "In 1929, 70 percent of stock dividends went
to 1 percent of Americans," says Krugman. This means the top 1 percent
had more stock dividends than the bottom 99 percent.

In a speech, FDR said, "I see one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-
clad, ill-nourished."

FDR, who was brought to power by the disgruntled labor movement, took
steps to help labor share more equitably in the fruits of their labor
by imposing high taxes on the super rich. In his first administration,
he imposed a 63 percent tax rate on the super wealthy. In his second
administration, the tax rate for top incomes rose to 79 percent.

(Later, under Eisenhower, who was much more moderate than today's
Republicans, the top tax rate rose to 91 percent due to cold war
spending. It was still high -- 70 percent --  up until the time Ronald
Reagan took office in 1981. Today, the tax rate for the super rich is
just 35 percent, but may be raised by the Obama Administration to 40
percent.)

FDR also passed legislation to prevent employers from suppressing
labor unions. Union activity surged.

Furthermore, the New Deal brought about Social Security, unemployment
insurance, minimum wages, regulations of banks, regulation of the
securities industry, enormous work relief programs for the unemployed,
the Tennessee Valley Authority, housing programs, minimum wages, fair
labor standards, insurance on federal deposits and farm price supports
and more.

In his book, "The Conscience of a Liberal," Krugman shows how
redistributing the wealth "invigorated the economy. ... The era of
equality was a time of unprecedented prosperity which we have never
been able to recapture."

With his New Deal, FDR created the middle class.

"Middle class societies don't emerge automatically as the economy
matures, they have to be created through political action," said
Krugman.

In 1940, after eight years in power, the gross domestic product was 60
percent higher than in 1933, while unemployment was reduced from 25.2
percent down to 9.3 percent.

What a difference a president can make! Presidential scholars ranked
Franklin D. Roosevelt as the best president five times in the Siena
College Research Institute's Survey of U.S. Presidents.

If you are for safeguarding New Deal programs, such as Social
Security, unemployment insurance, decent minium wages and a strong
labor movement, then you can call yourself a liberal (but keep in mind
that the word is being phased out and replaced with the word
"progressive.") If you want to tear down or weaken these institutions,
you are hard right.

Lessons learned from Franklin D. Roosevelt are more valuable than
ever, for the United States has one of the highest levels of income
inequality in the world, according to the Gini index.

"In 1998, the top 5 percent owned 59% of the wealth, or to put it
another way, the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95
percent of the population," says New York University economist Dr.
Edward N. Wolff, author of the book, "Top Heavy: the increasing
Inequity of wealth in America and what can be done."

"Unequal societies have low rates of economic growth."

Dr. Lawrence Katz, a Harvard economist, says something similar, "I
think incredibly high incomes can have a pernicious effect on the
polity and economy."

In these troubled times, we need liberals in power to impose high
taxes on the rich and to enact programs to redistribute the wealth in
order to stimulate the economy and cushion the blow for the millions
of people who have lost their jobs, the millions have lost their
homes, the millions more who face foreclosures on their mortgages and
the growing numbers who face grinding poverty.

We also need progressive oversight rather than conservative laissez-
faire policies of deregulation.

Consider what happened when Republicans refused to regulate the
financial markets. Dr. Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize- winning
economics professor at Columbia University, said, "Our national debt
will be trillions of dollars larger as a result of the mismanagement
of the economy. ... Allowing banks to engage in unfettered risk taking
is reckless. ... The proposition that you can strip away government is
reckless."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't listen to propaganda spewed out by the rich -- by narrow
interests with a hidden agenda like Rush Limbaugh.

Dear people, listen to radio truely for the people -- for solutions to
our problems.  Listen to MSNBC on the Internet or on cable. It is
excellent.   Bookmark this page on the internet:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/

Also bookmark my website for wonderful videos and essays:

http://www.anniebirdsong.info

You'll find videos and essays on:
-Great thoughts on beauty and wisdom gathered from across the world
-Aerobics
-Sacred dance
-Wonderful music
-Earthkeeping
-Vegetarain video recipes featuring great cooks and chefs from across
the world
-Videos by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
-Videos by Paul Krugman -- a Nobel Prize-winning economist
-Materials for children
and so much more.
I just created a nice video for children called "For the Beauty of the
Earth."  It has deer fawns nursing, baby swans, baby ducks, bear cubs,
an elk, baby racoons, a squirrel, a baby wren, a pheasant, sheep and
more. Beautiful scenery set to beautiful music.


author: liberal

subject: Re: Polls: Christians Have Liberal Views But Don't Realize It

text:
On Dec 12, 11:01 am, "Eddie Haskell" <[email]> wrote:

I think you're being over-medicated........


author: Doc Holliday

text:
On Dec 11, 6:48 pm, Public Servant <[email]>
wrote:

It's simple to identify a real Christain; if they're no acting "Christ
Like" are THEY Christians"

Is the devil going to come in and be a sob or is he going to say he a
Christian and kiss you ass and be you best friend and tell you sweet
lies about being a hero and having need for necessary evils of war??

Christ said "Love Thine Enemy's and Turn the other cheek so whose who"

New International Version (©1984)
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be
Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and
fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you

Dumb Down (Charlotte Iserby) Americans don't know the difference
between shit and icecream!

Peace,
Doc


text:
On Dec 11, 6:48 pm, Public Servant <[email]>
wrote:

Dunb Down Americans (Charlotte Iserby) don't know the difference
between doodoo and icecream

Belzebub is not goind to be so bad ass from hell he's going to kiss
you ass and tell you sweet lies, lies and more lies about saving
heroines and beingh a hero pride being our nemesis

Christ said LITERAL love thine enemy, turn the other cheek; right?

The burning "Bush" and others aact in the name of Christ?

I Don't think so! What is shit (hate and revenge) or what is ice cream
(love and peace)

Peace,
Doc


author: Eddie Haskell

subject: Re: Polls:  Christians Have Liberal Views But Don't Realize It

text:
"Public Servant" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Consider where your political philosophy would be without all your goddamn
lying. It was Hoover and FDR's polices that CAUSED the great depression
while it was regulation that caused the financial crisis.

Now, eat shit.

-Eddie Haskell


text:
"liberal" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Dec 12, 11:01 am, "Eddie Haskell" <[email]> wrote:

Damn, a lie right off the bat.

"The final attempt of the Hoover Administration to rescue the economy was
the passage of the Emergency Relief and Construction Act which included
funds for public works programs and the creation of the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation (RFC) in 1932."

"In order to pay for these and other government programs, Hoover agreed to
one of the largest tax increases in American history. The Revenue Act of
1932 raised income tax on the highest incomes from 25% to 63%. The estate
tax was doubled and corporate taxes were raised by almost 15%."

"New Dealer Rexford Tugwell later remarked that although no one would say so
at the time, "practically the whole New Deal was extrapolated from programs
that Hoover started.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover

"Tugwell subsequently served in FDR's administration for four years and was
one of the chief intellectual contributors to his New Deal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexford_Tugwell

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent
before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong
... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I
want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We
have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this
Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And
an enormous debt to boot!"

-Treasury secretary Henry Morganthau - May 1939

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau,_Jr.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx


author: Sevenhundred Elves

subject: Re: Transcend disease, old age, and death? (was Re: duration of a sit)

text:
Lifeform Bri wrote:

Good idea. They can't let everybody in, can they?

S.


author: stumper

subject:
Re: Transcend disease, old age, and death? (was Re: duration of a
 sit)

text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

Why not?
They can always call it the Reality NBA.

Come to think of it,
even though I don't watch them yet,
reality TV might be good for awakening.
Let's sign people up for
5 years of Zen training!


text:
stumper wrote:

They lack the infrastructure and motivation to deal with billions of
people who don't even care about basket.

S.


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

What do you think about the idea that
anything is possible spiritually?


text:
stumper wrote:

Do you mean mind-over-matter stuff, or is it more of a question about
can-everyone-become-awakened-if-they-work-at-it-hard-enough?

Oh, never mind, I'll just give you my opinion on both issues: I believe
that awakening is more difficult than making magic. Just my opinion, and
by no means any kind of Buddhist canon. Or it may actually be, for all I
know.

I'm not at all certain that it is possible for everyone to put in the
amount or the nature of work that would be necessary to achieve
awakening. Some of us are mentally or physically too weak (or too
strong, or have any number of other excesses or defects) to accomplish
it in a single lifetime.

S.


author: Keynes

text:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 02:00:55 GMT, Sevenhundred Elves
<[email]> wrote:

If you think you can't, you're right -- you can't.
If you think you can, you could also be right.


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

I am talking about the attitude toward life.
Would you like to live as if anything is possible?


text:
Keynes wrote:

You could always try, even if you don't know about the outcome.

S.


text:
stumper wrote:

If I said yes, would you make it so, for me? :-) No, belay that, I will
take you seriously: Even if anything is possible, life is short, and
most of the possibilities will have to remain unused. We simply don't
have the time to explore every possibility. I think it is enough for me,
personally, that life contains more possibilities than I can use. If
these unused possibilities are infinite in number, as they are if
anything is possible, or if they instead are limited by some large
number, makes no difference to me, since I in any case can't use more
than a small part of all possibilities.

S.


author: Evelyn Ruut

text:
"stumper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I think it is.


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

What makes you think life will be short
when anything is possible?


text:
"Sevenhundred Elves" <[email]> wrote in message
news:6VdBg.12041$[email]...

Yes, exactly.   But life is always so full of unexpected surprises, that
living ones life as though it was an adventure ...... like a funhouse ride,
can be a good attitude.   When I think back over my own life, the
unexpectedness of certain events was just amazing.    None of our plans can
be written in stone.    Everything changes all the time, and it has to be
fine that way, because that is how it is!   Just dealing with things as they
arise for what they are, letting them arise and fall away is OK with me.


subject: Re: Transcend disease, old age, and death? (was Re: duration of asit)

text:
"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@gmail.com[remove]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I didn't mean *that* way :-)


text:
Tang Huyen wrote:

I didn't know you are athletic enough
to be into platform jumping.

Is the awareness of the awakened
rather like that of cats?


text:
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:28:11 -0400, Tang Huyen
<tanghuyen{delete}@gmail.com[remove]> wrote:

Hail Internal Combustius -- God of the Speeding Trucks.

Promises a short and precarious life if one is stressed
and unhappy enough, and an ignoble ending in any case.

Not worth a Sunday service IMO,
let alone a lifetime of faithful and fearful dedication.


text:
stumper wrote:

If anything is possible, isn't it also possible that life will be short
and miserable, as I see is the case with poor people around the world?
Judging by that, it doesn't look like everything is possible, at least
not for everyone.

Also, statistics lets us see that life is short. Most die before they
are 100.

It is rare that a human lives to be a hundred, and even if someone could
reach twice that age he still could not avail himself of every
possibility. So, to any given human, everything is not possible.

S.


text:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:48:26 -0400, stumper <[email]> wrote:

Once upon a time, Long and Short
had an argument about which was tallest.
So they decided to measure their shadows
and settle things once and for all.

They tried it at noon, but both shadows
looked the same.  Then they tried it at
midnight.  Long said,"My shadow covers
everything."  Short said,"No. It's my shadow
that reaches everywhere."

Just Now was wandering by, so they asked him
to decide who was right.  Just Now said,
"You both look the same to me.  Invisible."


text:
Evelyn Ruut wrote:

I have a friend who is exactly like that. A very rajassic temperament,
as it would be called in the yoga system. I'm very fond of her, and she
always seems to have a cheerful influence on people. I don't begrudge
her, or anyone, such an attitude, I promise! But do I have to emulate
it? I don't think so, and I don't even think I could, if I tried. It
just wouldn't be me.

Sounds good enough to me.

S.


author: Tang Huyen

subject: The fire in the belly (was Re: Transcend disease)

text:
Keynes wrote:

If one wants to break oneself, nobody can stop one.
If one doesn't want to break oneself, nobody can
break one. The speeding truck can only come from
within. So does the yearning for awakening. It is
assumed that participants to these boards know the
difference between the two. Especially if they play
biggies and meanies.

Tang Huyen


text:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:51:00 GMT, Sevenhundred Elves
<[email]> wrote:

Methusala was celebrating his 350th birthday
when the angel of death came and began to
drag him off.  Methusela protested, "You can't
take me!  I'm too young to die!"


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

I was playing the game of
what if anything you want is possible.
I guess you are too modest to play along.

I guess you don't think
everything you want is possible
if only you have a little faith.
But, you seem to have faith
in scientific facts.

Do you have any faith
in anything spiritual?


text:
"stumper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

well i was wondering where Son of man was, and up he pops!
: )


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

Do you have any faith
in your ability to help those who suffer?


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

Do you just go around
doing things to people
without thinking about
whether you are helping them or not?

What are you?
Tang? ;-)


text:
stumper wrote:

No, of course not. I try to help as best I can. Do I need faith in my
ability before I try? It has simply never occurred to me to ask that of
myself before I try to help. But now that you ask, yes, I do have some
faith in my ability to help, at least some times. Depends on the
problem.

Still, if somebody is desperately in need of help, say someone is stuck
under a truck, leaking blood all over the place, I may have no faith at
all in my ability to lift the truck away from him, but I still would try
as many ways I could think of to get it off him.

At one time, when I was a child, I tried for perhaps half an hour to
revive someone who was probably already dead when I got there. I was not
sure I knew how to go about it correctly, but I kept trying artificial
respiration anyway until the ambulance arrived.

S.


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

Thinking back, I realise now that it probably took no more than ten,
maximum fifteen minutes before the ambulance got there (this was in the
pre-cellphone era). It only felt longer.

S.


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

A person?
Wow!

I remember trying to feed a puppy
that is born a little too early.

Anyhow, the faith that you are
not doing harm to others is necessary.

If you are killing a lot more
innocent civilians than combatants,
you need to pause to think
what you are doing.


author: Déjà Fu

text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

You've been begging a long while.
Isn't it time you sat down to eat?


text:
stumper wrote:

Who, me? I've never engaged in warfare. I don't believe in killing
people. Still, billions may have to die pretty soon, if we are to
believe what this webpage says (and it all seems plausible enough):

http://dieoff.org/

How can we stop that all that suffering from happening? You say you want
to help. Help me figure that out.

S.


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

When did you last see a worried cockroach?


text:
Sevenhundred Elves wrote:

People need to be paid for doing nothing.


text:
Déjà Fu wrote:

Just before you put it in a hot soup
in a fine restaurant. ;-)


author: Julian

text:
On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:13:09 -0400, Dï¿½ja` Fu <[email]> wrote:

The bowls never wanted washing. The boys polished them with their spoons till
they shone again; and when they had performed this operation (which never took
very long, the spoons being nearly as large as the bowls), they would sit
staring at the copper, with such eager eyes, as if they could have devoured the
very bricks of which it was composed; employing themselves, meanwhile, in
sucking their fingers most assiduously, with the view of catching up any stray
splashes of gruel that might have been cast thereon. Boys have generally
excellent appetites. Oliver Twist and his companions suffered the tortures of
slow starvation for three months: at last they got so voracious and wild with
hunger, that one boy, who was tall for his age, and hadn't been used to that
sort of thing (for his father had kept a small cook-shop), hinted darkly to his
companions, that unless he had another basin of gruel per diem, he was afraid he
might some night happen to eat the boy who slept next him, who happened to be a
weakly youth of tender age. He had a wild, hungry eye; and they implicitly
believed him. A council was held; lots were cast who should walk up to the
master after supper that evening, and ask for more; and it fell to Oliver Twist.

The evening arrived; the boys took their places. The master, in his cook's
uniform, stationed himself at the copper; his pauper assistants ranged
themselves behind him; the gruel was served out; and a long grace was said over
the short commons. The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and
winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was
desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and
advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his
own temerity:

'Please, sir, I want some more.'

The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in
stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for
support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with
fear.

'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice.

'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.'

The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his
arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room
in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

'Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!'

There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

'For MORE!' said Mr. Limbkins. 'Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me
distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the
supper allotted by the dietary?'

'He did, sir,' replied Bumble.

'That boy will be hung,' said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. 'I know that
boy will be hung.'

Nobody controverted the prophetic gentleman's opinion. An animated discussion
took place. Oliver was ordered into instant confinement; and a bill was next
morning pasted on the outside of the gate, offering a reward of five pounds to
anybody who would take Oliver Twist off the hands of the parish. In other words,
five pounds and Oliver Twist were offered to any man or woman who wanted an
apprentice to any trade, business, or calling.

'I never was more convinced of anything in my life,' said the gentleman in the
white waistcoat, as he knocked at the gate and read the bill next morning: 'I
never was more convinced of anything in my life, than I am that that boy will
come to be hung.'


author: Fast Pat

subject: George says ... "Americans aren't ready for it."

text:
George says the U.S. editors have all said a version of the same thing:
"Americans aren't ready for it."

That is, first of all, a dim view of Americans

US Publishers finding "Heat" Too Hot
8 Dec 2006

Article and comments are at:
http://www.desmogblog.com/


author: Hardrock Llewynyth

subject: Re: George says ... "Americans aren't ready for it."

text:
Thus saith "Fast Pat" <[email]> the Unworthy, in the year of
Our Lord, 9 Dec 2006 17:24:49 -0800:

I know I"m ready for it.  I just can't seem to get it lately.

Hardrock, who hasn't really been looking that hard for it, either.


author: pnyikos

subject: Craig Chilton's self-servingly worded challenge

text:
At the end of last month, Chilton posted one of his periodic
challenges to readers on the thread,
Subject: Re: Craig Chilton uses "R" Word, proves own bigotry!!
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2acd58393c1b6207

and I thought it worthwhile to start a separate thread with my reply:

On May 29, 12:51 am, "(¯`·.¸  Craig Chilton  ¸.·´¯) <http://
www.LayoffRemedy.com>" <[email]> wrote:

It's usually not easy to tell whether something is true without a lot
of background information.

For instance, just yesterday you ranted and raved about a heckler of
disgraced (now former) Congressman Weiner without giving a blessed
CLUE as to the content of the heckling.
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/413a7becbace37b8

One is almost forced to surmise that you consider it the sin of sins
to heckle a liberal Democrat, no matter WHAT he has said and done.

Very often, neither.  See above for an example hot off the presses, so
to speak.

Seldom.  Far more often, they are opinions which you arbitrarily label
"FACTS"  and soabox-style ranting, as in the Weiner example.

Jon  Young could be one such as you describe, yet the fact-to-opinion
ratio of what he posts under his own name,  or as "J", is better than
yours AFAIK because he posts lots of articles, some quite meaty,
written by others, and he doesn't go into such lengthy, almost fact-
free diatribes such as you posted about that heckler.

I cannot, and I doubt that even YOU can do it.

I've presented some, and can present lots more.  But you are the
beneficiary of a bunch of slanderous hypocrites whom I call the Nine
Musketeers.  You've falsely accused me of trying to recruit you
against at least two of them (Keegan and Humphrey) when I mentioned
some slanders they have posted.  There are literally thousands where
those came from, and I am beset by them even more than you are beset
by hecklers and forgers.

So I have very little time for you, but some day I will come at you
loaded with facts and irrefutable arguments for several weeks at a
stretch, and then you can see what the score is.

Anyway,  here is a little teaser on the proper use of the word "baby":

The following is straight from

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/MEDLINEPLUS/ency/article/002398.htm

Published by the National Institutes of Health (NIH):
____________________________________
The end of the eighth week marks the end of the "embryonic period"
and
the beginning of the "fetal period."

    * Weeks 9 to 12 of gestation; weeks 11 to 14 of pregnancy
          o Eyelids close and will not reopen until about the 28th
week.
          o The face is well formed.
          o Limbs are long and thin.
          o Genitals appear well differentiated.
          o Red blood cells are produced in the liver.
          o The head makes up nearly half of the baby's size.
          o The baby can make a fist with its fingers.
================= end of excerpt

Note the words "baby" in the last two lines I quoted,  and ask
yourself, "How many times have I, Craig Chilton, claimed that it is a
LIE to call a fetus a baby?"

Maybe even "an IGNORANT, BIGOTED, HATEFUL LIE"?

Peter Nyikos


author: james g. keegan jr.

subject: Re: peter nyikos, the plagiarist

text:
In article
<[email]>,
 pnyikos <[email]> wrote:

so now you are claiming that interested readers are too stupid to know
that, plagiarist?


subject: Re: keegan and extrasensory perception

text:
On Jun 17, 6:27 am, "james g. keegan jr." <[email]> wrote:

No more than you are  claiming that readers are gifted with
extrasensory perception that makes them magically aware of everything
that is of interest to them.

Why, even Chilton could not figure out last month where Jon Young got
the notion that Patrick Humphrey was dead.  It was only today that,
thanks to my help, he found out about the post that claimed to be
announcing Patrick's death, written to make it look like it came from
him.

Peter Nyikos


subject: Re: the plagiarist posting as peter nyikos

text:
In article
<[email]>,
 pnyikos <[email]> wrote:

your post was cut at your first new lie, plagiarist.


author: Yan Hao

subject: Re: Selection of Panchen Lama

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] says...
maybe irrelevent here is not a very proper word. given the dalai lama's
religious and political influence in a church-state system, his role in the
selection of high lamas has always been relevant. however, what i am talking
about was the supreme authority in the sense of tibet being subject to the
chinese central government, if you have seen my previous posts. in 1951 the
dalai lama had to accept the conditions set BY the chinese government, not
vice versa. or you mean the dalai lama forced the chinese government to come
to his terms? ridiculous for you as a well known expert to raise such a
point! by the way, the 10th panchen lama was NOT the chinese government's
choice from a number of candidates. as i mentioned, it is a fait accompli
left by the previous KMT government. as in the case of the 11th panchen
lama, the tibetan government-in-exile certainly has no role in approve a
high lama in tibet. that is why i said the following: whether there is
approval from the tibetan government is irrelevant, not to mention that such
a government no longer exists. however, the dalai lama personally as a
religious leader  is not denied totally from the selection procedure. the
problem is he thinks he has the final say and remained uncooperative,
particularly in endorsing one candidate uniterally. as far as the final
confirmation is concerned, the dalai lama has NO role whatsoever, according
to chinese documents.

please be consistent in using the chinese government (a central government
of china) or in using CCP (a political party). no religious leader in china
is appointed by CCP, including the 11th panchen lama. the 11th panchen lama,
like his predecessors, is confirmed by a chinese central government
according to the hundred-year old historical practice. if there is no
history, why should the chinese government looks for justification?
of course i, being a chinese, know quite well that important figures of all
official organizations in china have to be approved (not necessarily
directly appointed) by the government. and CCP is the ruling party.

i keep saying in my argument that tibet used to have a church-state system,
no difference from that in middle ages, and its influence still exists
nowadays. blaim the tibetans if you like for insisting such a middle age
tradition. when it comes to the religious side of the story, i agree that
the dalai lama has certain role in the selection of high lamas in tibet,
though he now lives overseas. nevertheless, he hoes not has the supreme
authority when there is still political implications. i believe the pope
will face the same problem if he insists that he has the supreme authority
in confirming a cardinal in china, suppose the holy see is officially
recognized by the chinese government.
i am happy to be non-religious, because i know religion also kills. why i am
interested in this group TPT, because i believe what the manchu emperors and
the current chinese government did is politics, not religion per se. pity
that at the end of the day, you still pretend to think the selection of high
lamas in tibet is a religious procedure, and try to use freedom of religion
to glorify your false belief. you are certainly talking with a wrong person,
just like talking heaven ( how attractive!) and hell (how terrible!) with
me. so what, i don't care.


author: Kncgrammy

subject: Re: Selection of Panchen Lama

text:
Hello.  I am new to this board.  I think that the selection of the Panchen
Lama is both political and spiritual, but the political aspect undermines
the spiritual aspect.

I am curious as to why the Tibetan govt. handled the situation the way it
did.  One would think that they would have made the effort to ensure the
safety of their choice before announcing to the world that they had found
the new Panchen Lama.  Instead, they placed the life of a young boy and
his family in danger, and as a result, he has disappeared from view.

It makes me think that the Tibetan govt. wanted to create another
controversy in order to create bad press for the Chinese government.  This
is not to excuse the Chinese govt. for their actions.  Anyone care to
comment?

Grammy


author: Peter Kauffner

subject: Re: Selection of Panchen Lama

text:
Yan Hao <[email]> writes:

Nailing your position down is not an easy task, but I'll try again.
Do you think this practice is a good idea or not? Is it something
you recommend that other countries do? If the government controls
the appointment of religious leaders, there is no religious
freedom. IMO, what you really think is that religion is a bad thing
and should be surpressed. But instead of saying so outright, you've
decided to hide behind a lot of claptrap about Manchus and final
confirmation.

If picking religious leaders isn't a religious procedure, what is?
After all, the Chinese government no longer permits lamas to have
any political authority.

Peter Kauffner                             Minneapolis, Minnesota

 "It is our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole
 of the continent which Providence has given us for the development
 of the great experiment of liberty and federated self-government
 entrusted to us." --John O'Sullivan, editor _New York Post_, 1845


author: Xiaofeng Ren

subject: Re: Selection of Panchen Lama

text:
Yan Hao wrote:

I agree with Yan Hao completely on the fact that selecting a Panchen
lama is also a political issue , therefore the chinese government is
qualified to involve itself. I believe the chinese government is
willing to talk to the Dalai lama on the issues of tibeten culture
and religion, and he is welcome to visit or live in Beijing or
Tibet. I also remember when the panchen lama died, the Dalai lama was
invited to attend his funeral, but he declined. It is unfair to say
that the Dalai lama is not allowed to return to tibet. He can return
as a spiritual leader, not a political leader. This is the core of
the current difference between the chinese government and the DL.
Some people on the net just don't see it.
XR


author: Alex Vange

subject: Re: Population 6 BILLION!...and your slice of the pie??

text:
Hyman Blumenstock <[email]> wrote in article
<[email]>...
to
running
for
we
not
would.
would
or
with
less
to
we
be
death
to
We
a
should
allowances
justly
our
   That is happening now with the White race. White women are brainwashed
by our racial enemies the Jews into being feminists and they have decided
that they have better things to do than to create the next generation of
our race. The world needs more White people because we are a superior race.
Here are some quotes from Mein Kampf:

    "All that we admire in the world to-day, its science, its art, its
technical developements and discoveries, are the products of the creative
activities of a few peoples, and it may be true that their first beginnings
must be attributed to one race. The maintenance of civilization is wholly
dependant on such peoples. Should they perish, all that makes this earth
beautiful will descend with them into the grave."

     "All the great civilizations of the past became decadent because the
originally creative race died out, as a result of the contamination on the
blood."

      "Every manifestation of human culture, every product of art, science
and technical skill, which we see before our eyes to-day, is almost
exclusively the product of the Aryan creative power. This very fact fully
justifies the conclusion that it was the Aryan alone who founded a superior
type of humanity"

      "The foundations of actual life in Japan to-day ar not those of the
native Japanese culture., although this characterizes the exterenal
features of the country, which features strike the eye of European
observers on account of their fundamental difference from us; but the real
foundations of contemporary Japanese life are the enormous scientific and
technical achievements of Europe and America, that is to say, of Aryan
peoples."

      "A people that fails to preserve the purity of its racial blood
thereby destroys the unity of the soul of the nation in all its
manifestations. A disintegrated natioanal character is the inevitable
consequence of the process of disintegration in the blood. And the change
which takes place in the spiritual and creative faculties of a people is
only an effect of the change that had modified its racial substance."

 "For in a world which would be composed  of mongrels and negroids all
ideals of human beauty and nobility and all hopes of an idealized future
for our humanity would be lost forever."

"It is especially the cultural creativeness which disappears when a
superior race inter-mixes with an inferior one."

"There may be hundreds of excellent States in this earth, and yet if the
Aryan, who is the creator and custodian of civilization, should disappear,
all culture that is on an adequate level with the spiritual needs of the
superior nations to-day would also disappear."

     "We National Socialists know that in holding these views we take up a
revolutionary stand in the world to-day and that we are branded as
revolutionaries. But our views and our conduct will not be determined by
the approbation or disapprobation of our contemporaries, but only by our
duty to follow a truth which we have acknowledged. In doing this we have
reason to believe that posterity will have a clearer insight"

      "Thus for the first time a high inner purpose is accredited to the
State. In face of  the ridiculous phrase that the State should do no more
than act as the guardian of public order and tranquillity, so that
everybody can peacefully dupe everybody else, it is given a very high
mission indeed to preserve and encourage the highest type of humanity which
a beneficent Creator has bestowed on this earth."


author: Dan Parker

text:
Alex Vange wrote:

Assumption.  The people who do not have large families do so
because they are concerned about overpopulation.  Well I know
lots of people who have small families, and not a one has done
so for the reason you state.

Do you see the logic as above?  So who should determine intelligence?

It is because they have a high standard of living, partially through industriousness
(northern clime probably), and partially because we are the most successful
thieves, taking 3 dollars in interest for every dollar we give in so-called aid
to poorer countries.  In multi-cultural Canada, people of all races have relatively
small families, because all second generation and up immigrants are enjoying
a high standard of living.  Again, no statistical correlation that is noticeable from
those I know or see around here.

Bring everyone up to a high standard of living, through an efficient and effective
information age economy, and the population should level off as it has among
races and countries where this has occurred.

Logic breakdown again.  If it was a population war waged by the Jews, why
is the Jewish population not having large families?

Too bad he didn't as a matter of principle refuse to use the Chinese
invention of gunpowder for WWII.

Except Tesla who is often cited as a father of industrialization was a Slav,
or untermenschen according to Nazi ideology.  Are you aware Hitler
spouted a lot of this for public consumption only.  To pull the strings of
sheeple (as his enemies were so good at doing).  Anyways, enough
of this stuff.


author: Henry Wilson

text:
On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 07:00:16 GMT, "Alex Vange" <[email]> wrote:

And completely stuffed the earth's natural environment!
What you said in your original article was good scientific fact. Why
are you now being counterproductive by sprouting rehashed nationalist
drivel.

We don't need nazi propaganda to convince us that the world needs
selective and restricted breeding - urgently - and we don't
necessarily need more germans or their fellow travellers, that's for
sure. Your 'wonderful' Ayrian race wasn't feeling all that superior in
1945!

I think the Chinese are the undisputed leaders in this field now, with
their excellent one child policy.
They are also demonstrating how population control can go hand in hand
with improved living standards and economic well being.

Nothing like this can happen in the Western world because of its so
called 'democracy' and its one sided legal system, the sole purpose of
which seems to be to protect the guilty and maximise Lawyers' profits.

Failing an unforeseen social miracle, we can only look forward to a
downward slide into anarchy and depression as the indoctrinated and
less responsible breed unproportionately, without restraint.