text:
In article <26q7v1$[email]> [email] (Chris Bartz) writes:

1) I certainly agree that there were a variety of options available to the
BATF, and they they may not have chosen the best one.  Perhaps what you
suggest would have worked better.  Perhaps it would have come out to
exactly the same ends, with a seven week standoff and a final tragedy.
Honestly, I don't know.  My point has never been to say that the BATF was
justified, or that we know (and they knew beforehand) that they had THE
one and only best strategy.  My point is to say that their approach is not
so "obviously" irrational or sinister as some wish to make it out.  You or
I might have weighted the factors (of which we know very few currently)
differently than the agent in charge, and maybe things would have come off
better.  Or maybe worse.

How do you know that?  There is a common fallacy at work here.  For theoretic
purposes, assume we have two courses of action.  One has one chance in 2 of
killing two people.  The other has one chance in 20 of killing 10 people.
We choose the latter.  Oops, 10 people were killed; that *was* a risk, no?
So after the fact, do we know that this as in fact the worse alternative?
Or if you want to separate things even more, play A has 1/3 chance of killing
one person, plan B has 1/4 chance, plan B is chosen and backfires and the
person is killed.  Does that mean that obviously plan A was better?  No,
it does not.  This is "even it the true risks could be exactly determined"
ahead of time; with incomplete information and fuzzy estimates, the situation
just gets worse.  An "apparent best choice given current information" can
turn out to lead to disaster, without changing the fact that it WAS the
apparent best choice then.  Risks (as opposed to certainties) are like that.

Back to the real world and Waco; I'm not even saying that the BATF made the
apparent best choice.  I'm just saying that your apparent reasoning tht
they *didn't* make the best choice isn't valid.

Hmmm.  My human tendency is to give those who *are* willing to do these
things some say in just what they do; more say than those who from the
safety of distance, and hindsight, would judge one their best options.
Inlcuding me, by the way.  I admit that I wasn't there, and I don't know
for sure what was the best course.

Here's where you and I fully agree, on both points.
With ribbons on it.  I don't want to see another Waco if we can avoid it.
New procedures, combined with sanctions against those who blew it this time,
are very needed.  "No-knock" warrant service needs to be more restricted,
and better supervised.

         Z


author: C. D. Tavares

subject: Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS (Was Re: BATF Cover-up Attempt for Waco, TX Massacre)

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Zhahai Stewart) writes:

Find it and quote it.

It has been posited here that the BD's did not shoot FIRST at the BATF,
and that SOME BATF casualties were from friendly fire.

Somebody certainly needs to read more carefully.


author: Steve Kao

text:
zs> A hard concept to grasp for some people: even
zs> if the BATF's warrant was 100% unjustified and the raid was improper, the
zs> FBI may be completely justified in apprehending those who shot BATF agents,
zs> to stand trial.

sk> I cannot recall anyone here saying that the FBI did not have the
sk> authority to arrest the BD who shot BATF agents.

Zhahai Stewart ([email]) wrote:

Non sequitor.  No one has, to my recollection, argued that the FBI did
not have the authority to arrest the BD who shot BATF agents.  Whether
or not the BD fired shots has nothing to do with whether or not the FBI
can arrest them on the charge of firing the shots.

sk> What I and others have
sk> been protesting is the way in which the FBI chose to exercise that
sk> authority.  Why did the FBI have to use a tank?  Why did they have to
sk> flood the compound with a flamable gas and ignite it?  Why did the FBI
sk> agents not even try to separate the shooters from everyone else?  Why
sk> did the FBI kill everyone in the compound without bringing them to
sk> trial?

I'll drop the questions then.  What I and others have been protesting is
means in which the FBI chose to arrest the BD.  From everything I've
heard, their actions were unreasonable and unconstitutional.  I'll be
glad to see contrary evidence.

- Steve Kao


text:
Mike Light ([email]) wrote:

They are.  Amendment IV of the US Constitution reads:

     "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers, and effect, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall
not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the person or things to be seized."

No-knock searches are unreasonable, hence illegal.

- Steve Kao


author: HENRY E SCHAFFER

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Zhahai Stewart) writes:

  It appears that from their own words that their approach was
irrational or sinister.  They say that they trained for months, and that
they believed that the BD's were heavily armed, with rifles and machine
guns (including .50 caliber and 50mm - well, that's what they said).
They approached in a way that was really irrational to approach an armed
encampment - and then they announced a day or so later that they had
been "outgunned" because the BD's had guns that "could shoot through
doors."  I believe that *every* center fire rifle sold in this country
can shoot through doors, and probably so can most rimfire rifles.  (I'm
assuming that the BD's doors were built as well as the rest of the
compound - they weren't bank vault doors.)

  So either the BATF lied in the warrant, or they approached in a
criminally negligant manner, or they intentionally wanted to get a bunch
of agents killed.  I just don't see any possible choice which doesn't
leave an irrational or sinister implication. I'd feel a lot more
comfortable if there was one - can anyone help?

--henry schaffer


author: Mike Light

text:
: > The BATF was just following standard operating procedures during the raid.
: > (I sure wish such procedures would be forbidden by law).

: They are.  Amendment IV of the US Constitution reads:

:      "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
: papers, and effect, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall
: not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
: supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
: to be searched, and the person or things to be seized."

: No-knock searches are unreasonable, hence illegal.

There's the rub:  So far no judge has made the specific pronouncement
that a no-knock search is unreasonable and hence illegal.

-- Mike Light @ Hewlett-Packard  Cupertino CA  [email] --


author: Brent Irvine

text:
In article <26qeeb$[email]> [email] (Steve Kao) writes:

If you define an unreasonable search and seizure as a no knock.  Sorry,
but it depends on the circumstances and the previous definitions of
the word "unreasonable."

It is all up to the supreme court (who backed up no knocks in the case
of illegal drugs).


author: Alan Browne

subject: Ask Siri "what is the best smart phone ever?"

text:
I dare ya!

--
"A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
                           -Samuel Clemens.


author: Davoud

subject: Re: Ask Siri "what is the best smart phone ever?"

text:
Alan Browne:

I took the dare and Siri understood the words exactly as you wrote
them. Response:

"I found 2 places matching 'Ever.' Tap the one you want to call:

"Ever Rich Enterprises Inc
7.4 miles

"Best Ever Photos Inc
5.0 miles"

*****

That was *fun* ! Any other suggestions for fun Siri questions? I need
your answer soon because I'm about to order some concert tickets @ $
several hundred, but I'll save my money and stay home with Siri if it's
going to be this much fun. I can't wait to show my my wife. I know that
she will be delighted.

*****

OK, here's the real deal. If you ask "What is the best smartphone
ever," saying "smartphone" quickly as one word, you get the humorous
answer (humorous in the context of iPhone, that is).

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm


author: Simon Dobbs

text:
On Fri, 11 May 2012 21:15:48 +0100, Alan Browne wrote
(in article <[email]>):

Siri is most gracious if you thank him (in UK) after he does something for
you.


author: Brian

text:
Alan Browne <[email]> wrote:

For those of us that don't know what Siri is.....what is it?

--
Regards Brian


text:
On 2012-05-11 18:07 , Davoud wrote:

I screwed up: amend to  " ... ever made?"

http://www.phonearena.com/news/Nokia-Lumia-900-is-the-best-phone-ever-Siri-says-so_id30041

--
"A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
                           -Samuel Clemens.


text:
Brian <[email]> wrote:

Many posts later and still no one has answered the question.
I decided to research it on the internet to find the answer and as someone
pointed out Siri is not available in New Zealand.

It reminds me of an episode from "The Big Bang Theory" TV show where
someone falls in love with his phone as he is able to talk to it like a
real person.

Sounds like a useful feature....Maybe later it will come to other countries
like New Zealand.

--
Regards Brian


text:
Brian <[email]> wrote:

This is what is missing.

Siri on iPhone 4S lets you use your voice to send messages, schedule
meetings, place phone calls, and more. Ask Siri to do things just by
talking the way you talk. Siri understands what you say, knows what you
mean, and even talks back. Siri is so easy to use and does so much, you’ll
keep finding more and more ways to use it.

--
Regards Brian


author: Philo D

text:
In article
<[email]>, Brian
<[email]> wrote:

Those who have Siri can ask her what Siri is.  The rest of us can ask
Google.


subject: Re: Ask Siri "what is the best smart phone ever made?"

text:
On 2012-05-12 05:18 , Brian wrote:

I suggest you visit the Apple site.

--
"A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
                           -Samuel Clemens.


author: John McWilliams

text:
On 5/11/12   PDT 3:32 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

Almost anyone can manipulate the web to produce answers like that. But
as of precisely 3:50:16 PM PST on Friday, May 11, 2012, it gives the
first hit a link to the 4G.........


text:
On 2012-05-13 09:45 , Brian wrote:

Several posts ago I suggested you go to the Apple site to find out.

There is also a thing called Google that usually finds stuff like that.

--
"A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
                           -Samuel Clemens.


author: Bread

text:
On 2012-05-13 13:45:07 +0000, Brian said:

Many posts later and have you tried using Google yet?

Actually, I thought that was a pretty interesting aside.  But it's
really still just an aside.  Had you said "I looked on Google and
still don't get it" you'd have gotten much more straight answers.

That was exactly siri.

I'm more interested in the "dictate" button that they've added to the
new iPads - any time a keyboard comes up, anywhere, you can speak
instead of type.

OTOH, I haven't got a 4S and haven't really used siri.  I suspect that
it'd make operating the iPhone, say, in the car much easier and safer.

"siri, play some music"
"siri, text my wife that I'm stuck in traffic"

My own (limited) experience with voice-recognition for things like
telling phones to call certain people has been terrible.  Siri is
apparently actually usable and that's shockingly different.


author: JF Mezei

text:
This just in:
Nokia accuses Apple of Siri bias over smartphone answer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18071342

It seems that after the news that Siri favoured the Nokia Lumia came
out, someone had the search engine changed to provide a different answer:

##
But Siri now responds to the same question with a jovial: "Wait... there
are other phones?"
##

Nokia isn't happy with this appearent editorial change to the search engine.


text:
On 2012-05-11 18:51 , John McWilliams wrote:

Per the report it's the output of the Wolfram Research engine that is
behind Siri.

--
"A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
                           -Samuel Clemens.


text:
David Empson wrote:

If a kiwi asks Siri "what is 6 + 6", Siri might answer "I'm sorry, I am
a phone and do not understand what sex is"


text:
One way to learn about Siri's capabilities is to look at this educatioal
video on Siri:  http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6648229/siri-argument


text:
Bread

If you mean as a driver, you would be mistaken. Driver performance
while using a hands-free phone has been shown to be equivalent to using
a hand-held phone (because you can't safely divide your attention
between driving and talking on the phone), and it has also been
demonstrated that that is equivalent to driving drunk. Texting is worse
yet.

Thus, in many states you would be violating the law by using Siri to
either make a phone call or send a text. And in every state you would
risk killing someone. Happens every day.

A few fussy people are getting upset over having lost family members to
persons using cell phones while driving, and there are calls for
mandatory prison sentences for both drunk drivers /and/ cell-phone
users even when there is no accident. I think that's a great idea.

I'm not holier than thou, but I keep my iThingies turned off while I'm
driving. I check e-mail, send texts, and answer phone calls over coffee
at rest stops. Works like a charm, but then I am not a self important
VIP who falsely believes that he must be in touch 24/7 lest the world
stop turning.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm


text:
Bread <[email]> wrote:

There are dangers with every new invention. I wonder if Siri confirms what
she is about to do before going ahead and doing it. I would not want to
accidentally insult someone or order something I did not want because Siri
misunderstood me.

Google is useful and I use it a lot but others reading this threat may be
asking the same questions.

--
Regards Brian


text:
Brian:

D, Philo replied, in part:

News:

Sounds disingenuous. If you had quoted the full response "Those who
have Siri can ask her what Siri is. The rest of us can ask Google" you
would have concluded that there is no circular reasoning at all.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm


text:
Brian:

Not a danger. Siri doesn't work that way. It is not yet sufficiently
developed to permit on-line shopping. It will let you contact a
merchant by phone and possibly e-mail, but what you say to the merchant
will be in your hands, not Siri's.

When Siri reaches the point where you can use it to buy from Amazon or
your local BMW dealer, you may be certain that there will be a couple
of layers of "Are you sure?" between you and the purchase, just as
there are now in your web browser.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm


author: News

text:
On 5/12/2012 9:00 AM, Davoud wrote:

As written and quoted, it's fanboi-circular.

For the rest, there is the far superior Google.


text:
Davoud:

News:

Point of order. You selectively quoted. That made your remark
inaccurate and misleading. But then, inaccuracy and misinforming are
very purpose of misquoting and selective quoting, are they not?

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: CAPITAL AVAILABLE/PROJECTS WANTED

text:
Charles Cagle <[email]> wrote:

Nuke reactors in cars? Good idea! Should generate about 5
mini-Chernobyls per day in the US alone. :-)


author: tjab

subject: Re: Wills LIES his ass off about his CONVICTION

text:
In article <[email]>,
Larry  <[email]> wrote:

You honestly haven't figured out yet that Kent is a compulsive liar?

I pity the people of New York if you are in fact an assistant DA.

(For the record, I and others have proved Kent to have lied again
and again. In the latest case, his claim that appeals can't be filed
pro se in Iowa.)

(Also for the record, you have just demonstrated that you don't know
what a straw man is. Pretty sad for someone who claims to be an ADA.)


author: Kent Wills

text:
On 3 Jun 2008 21:53:17 -0400, [email] (tjab) wrote:

    This from the guy who below LIES and states I've claimed appeals
can't be filed pro se.

    I pity the people who have to deal with you in whatever profession
you manage to get.  I hope it isn't one that requires one to be
honest, since you've abandoned all sense of it.

    Liar.  Cite where I have ever claimed that appeals can't be filed
pro se.  You won't because I've never made that claim.

    What's really sad is that you serve as a representative of your
college.  That you're reduced to lying in your futile attempt to win
reflects poorly on your school.  Really.


author: krp

text:
"Kent Wills" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

YOU HAVE!


text:
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:32:17 GMT, " krp" <[email]> wrote:

    Nope.  No amount of your lying will ever alter this simple truth.
   Cite just one post where I've claimed anyone can't file an appeal
pro se.  Just one is all I ask.
    If this is just more proof from you that you're a mentally ill
alcoholic, then never mind.  Just run away or add more lies in a
futile attempt to confuse the issue.

"And you RULE OUT that it could be MOORE my biggest
fan and GAY lover."
   Kenneth Robert Pangborn, of KRP Consulting and The A-Team, LYING
and claiming David Moore is his gay lover. Message-ID:
<_MlOj.598$pH4.7@trnddc06>


author: Arthur Shapiro

subject: Long Distance Service

text:
I don't make many long distance calls, and currently am in an AT&T "One Rate"
plan that charges 10 cents per minute for interstate calls.  (And, as I found
out the hard way on a rare 45 minute call, a ludicrous $1.25/minute to
Canada!)  I know there are better rates than a dime/minute out there, but,
again, I just don't make many calls.

A few months ago, they instituted a minimum $7/month cost, meaning that if I
don't talk for 70 minutes, I still end up paying them $7.

Now they're gonna up that to $9.  Not a huge amount, but enough to goad me
into action.

As an aside, I don't own a  cellular phone and have a fairly hostile attitude
toward them.

What would a reasonable approach be these days for the minimal long distance
user?  I need something simple enough for my wife to deal with easily, and
obviously would like a "reasonable" per-minute rate and to avoid as many as
possible of the various tack-on fees that seem to infest our phone bills.

And how does one "get out" of one's existing plan?

Appreciate any guidance.

Art


author: AutoEddy

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
In article <e2b2mi$1105$[email]>, [email]
says...
Art, I am going to go with suggesting OneSuite like a few of the others.
Easy signup, cheap rates and good service. I have only used them for
about four weeks now, but so far so good.
Eddy


author: JeffM

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Derald wrote:

So why do you have the X-No-Archive bit set on this?


author: SoCalMike

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Arthur Shapiro wrote:

a calling card from sams club or costco.

call em and cancel.


author: IP Daley

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
"Arthur Shapiro" <[email]> wrote in message
news:e2b2mi$1105$[email]...

If you have a cable broadband connection, go with VOIP. I'd recommend
www.voip.net for either $12.95/500 outgoing mins (unlimited incoming) or
$19.95/unlimited (no taxes or fees on either). It's very reliable and dirt
cheap. Free calling to US and Canada. Over at http://www.dslreports.com/gbu
they all seem to think www.viatalk.com is the best right now but they're
not, in my opinion.

Barring that, cancel your regular long distance service and use
www.tel3advantage.com for 1.9cents/min. It's cheaper than Onesuite and has
more
local numbers. I think you get a better deal if you use an agent. Just
search goggle.

Everyone should have a cell phone. Prepaid is very cheap these days. I'd
recommend www.pagepluscellular.com All you need is any Verizon phone (they
use the Verizon network so you get great coverage). Just buy a Verizon
Inpulse phone at Wal-Mart. About 12cents/min and you can put in as little as
$10 every 4 months! Get an activation on eBay for $7 with 100 minutes.


author: New Leaf

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Tracey wrote:
He might find when he calls them to cancel that he gets an amazingly
low offer. My sister got 1 cent a minute for six months from Telus in
British Columbia if she didn't switch.

Viv


author: Ward Abbott

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:53:38 GMT, [email] (Arthur
Shapiro) wrote:

Check out

www.onesuite.com

2.9 cents a minute


author: Tracey

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
"Arthur Shapiro" <[email]> wrote in message
news:e2b2mi$1105$[email]...

We use a calling card, purchased at Sam's Club.  Works out to about 3 cents
per minute 24/7.  Just dial the 800# and then enter the card number, then
the number you want to call.  The minutes never expire, and you can buy a
new card or add time to your existing card with a credit card. Oh, and to
make it easier, you can program the 800# and card number into your phone's
speed dial.

By notifiying your phone company.  You may have to do it in writing.  Call
the customer service number and ask them.  Tell then that you want to have
'no long distance service' on your phone.  Also have them put the block on
your number so that you can't get slammed or whatever they call it when
someone switches or adds a new long distance service to your line.


author: Logan Shaw

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Arthur Shapiro wrote:

Until I switched to a package deal with my cable company that includes
unlimited long distance, I had long distance service from these guys:

	http://www.pngcom.com/

They are much like a traditional long distance company in that you don't
have to prepay or dial access numbers of anything complicated like that,
and I believe they even use traditional (not Voice Over IP) phone lines.
You just pay a per-minute charge, no per-call charge or monthly fee or
anything like that.  I can't remember the rate, but I think it's 5.9
cents/minute for interstate calls (intrastate calls usually have extra
taxes, at least in Texas).  Not the absolute best rock bottom rate out
there, but still pretty good, and definitely better than 10 cents/minute.

For your case, where you don't make many calls, the thing that's going
to matter most is not the per minute rate but just getting signed up
with some company that has a good rate and no extraneous fees and
complications, which is why I think PowerNet Global would be a good
choice.

Of course, if you don't want to go through the minor hassle of switching
companies, you can simply call up your current company and tell them that
you can get 5.9 cents/minutes with no monthly fee, and that there is no
way you'll even consider remaining their customer unless they give you a
comparable deal.  If they start telling you about some deal which is better
than what you have now with them but still not as good as 5.9 cents/minute,
interrupt them as soon as it becomes apparent they're describing something
which doesn't fit your requirements and reiterate what your requirements
are.  Chances are, they'll be accommodating, at least if they really want
your business they will.

   - Logan


subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=MCI+calling+card
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=phone+calling+cards

  I dropped long distance years ago at $0.05 min + fees. Now $0.029 and
no fees or tax's.

 NO SURCHARGES, NO MAINTENANCE FEES and NO HIDDEN CHARGES!
 Same low rate 24 hours a day for all calling in the U.S.
 One price per minute no matter where or when you call within the
Domestic U.S., Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico
 No more excessive credit card or collect charges
Prepaid Domestic Service
24/7 Customer Care
English & Spanish Live Operators if needed
Crystal Clear Connection
Same Low Per Minute Rate Day & Night
With prepaid you control how much you spend
Pay Phone fee .50 cents  taken  off of  face value. {Huge savings}
No  weekly  maintenance fee  or  hidden  charges
Card expires 24 months from first call
Same low per minute rate 24 hours a day within the U.S.


author: Anthony Matonak

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Arthur Shapiro wrote:
...

I've been using these guys at 3.9 cents/minute.
http://www.americom.com/

If you have broadband (DSL or Cable) then one of the VOIP services
could work for you. They typically cost around $25/month, replace
your normal phone line and come with free long distance.
http://www.vonage.com/

If you are calling people who also have broadband, you could use
a service like Skype to do Pc-to-PC calls for free.
http://www.skype.com/

Anthony


subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Arthur Shapiro wrote:

If you use minimal long distance, don't get a long distance plan at
all. Buy those prepaid cards. OS is at university and he is paying 3.9
cents a minute.

Viv


subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
"wle" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

tel3...MUCH CHEAPER...VOIP..FREE LD!


subject: Long Distance Service - Followup Question

text:
In article <[email]>, "wle" <[email]> wrote:
Thanks for all the public and private suggestions, everyone.

Last question: if one tells the local phone company to take off the long
distance carrier (under the assumption that one will use a dial-around such as
onesuite), how does one dial a toll free 800, etc. number?  Or is that simply
not considered a long distance call despite starting with a "1"?

Art


author: Bob Ward

subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 04:58:32 GMT, Logan Shaw
<[email]> wrote:

Do you really think they are going to get all the tariffs changed to
accommondate one pain-in-the-ass customer?


subject: Re: Long Distance Service

text:
Bob Ward wrote:

Change the tariffs?  I suggested that someone call up the company they
already have service with and demand that that company match rates that
another company is already legally offering in the same market.  Why
wouldn't one company be able to match another's rates?

   - Logan


author: Tim

subject: Re: When were the borders closed?

text:
I would certainly have a problem with opening the border freely to the US..
As I know they would have a problem opening the border to us Canadians...  As
a Canadian living in the US I hear these poor guys belly ache that our rules
are to leaniant and we let undesirables in and well then those unwanted ones
illegally cross in to the US and cause them grief... Why should we let the
undesirable ones into Canada without weeding them out?? I don't care if the
immigrant is from the US or not... Traet them as eqaully as we treat others..
(hench they are no better or no worse than no one else in the world right?)..

When a Canadian moves south they are treated no differently than any one else
is.. The other thing I beleive is that sure Canada and the US share a lot of
the same things but we are also truely two seperate peoples with view points
that can be considerable different..

Tim.......

Erik van Roode wrote:


author: John Charles Wilson

subject: Re: When were the borders closed?

text:
In article <[email]>,
  Tim <[email]> wrote:
US..

     My guess is the Canadians would be afraid the US would export crime
and violence to Canada....

Canadians...

     Actually most "common people" in the US wouldn't care.  They would
welcome the ability to go to Canada w/o all the questioning.  Most US
citizens regard Canadians as being "almost the same as us".

  As
rules
unwanted ones

     The US *Government* says that.  Most of the "common people" don't
feel that way and most are unaware their government has that opinion.
(Too many of us don't pay attention to the news.)

 Why should we let
the
if the
others..
right?)..

     This is not a reason to dismiss the idea of a reciprocal agreement.
Several other groups of countries (most notably the EU) have seen the
value in this concept.

one else
lot of
points

     That can be said for the EU members as well, but open borders work
just fine there.

wrote:
similar
could

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


author: Gary L. Dare

subject: Re: When were the borders closed?

text:
Tim ([email]) wrote:

: As a Canadian living in the US I hear these poor guys belly ache
: that our rules are to leaniant and we let undesirables in and ...

Yet Canada was not responsible for Omar Abdel-Rahman's gang,
nor Timothy McVay - a US-born and bred Gulf War veteran.  And
the Algerian Ressam who was caught at the border is rumored
to have been captured on a tip from a joint CSIS-CIA team
that had been on his tail, that he was NOT deported so that
he could have been traced like a mouse in a maze to some big
cheese.  (Sorry, bad pun, I know! (-;)


author: JAWS: BUFFET

subject: Ideas from nothing

text:
It's funny how ideas will just come.  My goal was to come with a
totally new type of superhero.  I have been thinking about it for weeks
with no results.  I was at the coffee shop today stirring my java when
bam.  I came up with the superhero idea.  I was not even thinking about
it.  I even searched the net later and found there was no super hero
like it.  This ever happen to you?

++++++
Hollywood is nothing but money.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:01:12 -0600 (MDT), [email] (JAWS:
BUFFET) wrote:

If you focus your subconscious attention and intent in the same
direction, this will happen to you a * lot *!

Doug

---

Life is a river.  If you ain't gettin' your feet wet...
you ain't playin' hard enough.


author: RonB

subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
JAWS: BUFFET wrote on 15 Aug 2003:

Yep. I think writers, who work at their craft, are always subconsciously
looking for new ideas. It's funny the things that sometimes trigger
these
ideas, however.


author: Gene Harris

subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
Doug Newman wrote:

So what's your method for doing that?

Gene


author: Jay Browning

subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
In article <[email]>,
<[email]> wrote:

i have gotten whole ideas from a song I heard on the radio. I would
literally have one of those "this is the song that would be playing on
the soundtrack" moments. only in reverse. I heard the song and the
scene came to me. and then the rest of the story just sort of popped
into my head. in one case the moment was actually the very end of the
movie. it's very weird.


author: trajan

subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
RonB wrote:

Illustrator Kevin Pope had a wonderful self-promo series entitled
"Superheroes that never quite made it." His characters include
Man o' Glass, Sphincterboy, Wanda-No-Eyes, Johnny Bleeds-Alot,
Balsaboy, and Lady PMS.

:)
Trajan


author: Anders Lindbäck

subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
RonB <[email]> wrote in message news:<Xns93D8182DB7D23ezboard1lycoscom@130.133.1.4>...

It's called intuition. It's not just writers - the brain is always
working and one never know which impulse will trigger a solution.


subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
On 15 Aug 2003 18:08:59 GMT, Gene Harris <[email]> wrote:

Well, Gene...  The first thing I would do is leave out the word
"subconscious" in my statement above...

Pretty hard to focus my subconscious... if I'm not consciously aware
of it!

I beg everyone's pardon, on that faux pas...

Anyway...

My process, if you can call it that, is to basically think from the
general to the specific.  And I use a feedback loop -- clipboard with
quad paper and visualizing whatever I write on it -- to plant seeds
for subconscious thought.

Nothing terribly Earth-shattering, although it does seem to produce
results for me.

I guess, in a way, it's more about keeping myself open to the clarity
of a particular possible story "theme".

It seems to be a *pseudo-conscious* sort of process, if I can call it
that.

I hope that I've answered your question sufficiently.

And now... it's back to sleep for me!

Doug

"There's gold in them there hills... "
---

Life is a river.  If you ain't gettin' your feet wet...
you ain't playin' hard enough.


subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:29:23 GMT, Jay Browning
<[email]> wrote:

For sure!  Works very much like that for me on lots of occasions.

And then there's all the development of the *rest* of the script...

Doug

"Nothing comes easy.  And it if did, it wouldn't be worth nothin'."

---

Life is a river.  If you ain't gettin' your feet wet...
you ain't playin' hard enough.


subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
Anders Lindbï¿½ck wrote on 15 Aug 2003:

True. Usually a writer is working on story problems so the "implulse"
helps him there.


subject: Re: Ideas from nothing

text:
On 17 Aug 2003 00:04:12 GMT, Gene Harris <[email]> wrote:

Sorry, Gene.  I guess I was a little goofy in my explaination.

I just meant that rather than just thinking about story, etc.,
actually writing it down on my clipboard helps me to see more
possibilities.  Dialogue bits, sketches, whatever.

(Better on the paper that I can see and think about than just thinking
about it in my head.)

As to focusing "attention" and "intent"...

Ain't cha ever read Casteneda?

Doug

Well... it certainly isn't mandatory.  It won't be on the test...
---

Life is a river.  If you ain't gettin' your feet wet...
you ain't playin' hard enough.


subject: WTB : 4Mb 70ns 72pin SIMM

text:
I need 1 4Mb 70ns 72 pin SIMM. Please Email with prices.

							Thanks,
							\/\/ill R.


author: JGWohlford

subject: Re: WTB : 4Mb 70ns 72pin SIMM

text:
I have one for sale.  It is a Kingston Technologies and I guarantee
against DOA.  I will sell it for $125 and I will pay shipping and COD
costs.

Let me know if you are interested--I have others considering it.

Thanks,

Jim
**************************************************************************
***************************
James Wohlford      [email]  or  [email]


author: CHU HO SON

subject: Re: WTB : 4Mb 70ns 72pin SIMM

text:
125 for 1x36x60ns

					Chu Ho Son
					Microcomp Solution
					303-369-2177
					[email]


author: Rocky Roads

subject: Sorry to everybody

text:
I've tried as calm as I can to put an end to the vicious lies of Dave
Rumormonger Ruff (USNCB) and his Side kick Tim (Realitytrucker) and it just
keeps getting worse.

Tim, I've even seen a 5 year old girl strike up a converstation with a 4
year old boy.  Does that mean the 4 year old boy was only interested in SEX?
You try to make it sound like that.

The facts remain.  I still drive an 18 wheeler and I still make over 45ï¿½ a
mile when I am hauling trailers that make a 53 foot trailer look like a pup.
Once again, I have seen my highest pay check with this company ever.

Rocky


author: realitytrucker

subject: Re: Sorry to everybody

text:
Richard wrote:
Dave
and
with
interested
over
like
ever.
like

Bullis, read my response to RTQ.  It applies to you as well.


subject: Re: Sorry to everybody

text:
Rocky Roads wrote:
it just
a 4
in SEX?
45¢ a
a pup.

The facts remain:  We don't believe you, we don't care, we don't like
you, we wish you'd go away.


subject: Re: TIM THINKS HE IS GOD

text:
"realitytrucker" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Richard wrote:

Tim,

YOU ARE A BULLSHITTER AND HAVE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY.

Too bad Karen had to jump in on your Rumormonger pow wow and piss off
another poster on this NG.

Rocky


author: Jeremy Chisenhall

subject: Indy for sale

text:
For sale:
Silicon Graphics Indy Workstation
monitor - 16" viewing diagonal
keyboard, 3-button mouse, camera, and microphone
internal sound, video, scsii, 3d, and ether card
CPU: Mips R4400
          200mhz
          cpu version 6.00
FPU: Mips R4010 revision 0.00
128 MB ram
Indy 24-bit A2 audio processor
IRIX 5.3
1 2GB scsii hard drive

Software packages:
  Desktop Special Edition 1.0
  Indizone 2
  IRIS Development Option 5.3
  Impressario 1.2 server
  IRIX 5.3
  C++ Translator 4.0
  Web Force: To Author 2.0
please contact me at [email],
  or call 410-243-0098


author: JMartin

subject: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
I have an old garage.  It is old, wood and looks really bad, but it is
straight and the roof is good.  It shouldn't be falling down anytime
soon.

I want to use it to raise something, maybe turn it into a chicken
house, but the ground inside is full of oil and god knows what.  It is
a dirt floor.

I don't think pouring concrete is the answer, as the building is not
worth the expense.  Trying to dig it out would result in undermining
the foundation of the building.   Would putting a good layer of lime
seal the floor well enough to keep the crud away from the birds?  Any
other ideas?

Thanks

Jena


author: Florida

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Janet Baraclough wrote:
-snip-

   :^)   A perfectly reasonable request.  Janet, thank you for the use
of your magnificent language.  Should we slide over and thank the
Italians and the Germans now for their modest contributions?


author: Larry Caldwell

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (JMartin) says...

I go with the vote to move the building.  It sounds like somebody oiled
the dirt floor with used motor oil, which means that all those
carcinogens are still sitting there trying to get into the food chain.
Whatever you cover it with other than concrete, chickens scratch and
will get down to it in short order.

Maybe you could dig a layer of dirt out and replace it without
undermining the foundation.  All that would take is a shovel and some
time, and maybe you could find a safe place to put the contaminated
dirt.  By federal law, it has to go into a hazardous substance
containment facility.  I have no idea what they would do if you just
showed up with a pickup load of oily dirt.  It would probably blow their
minds.


author: Jim Ledford

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
JMartin wrote:

since you can't get the oil or the smell of the oil out of the ground
you are going to want to raise city chickens.  city chickens like city
people thrive on the smell of oil and other man made pollutants.  city
chickens will be happy in there.  be sure and add a security light
because city chickens like city people are afraid of the dark.

<g>


author: Offbreed

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
JMartin wrote:

Oh, lord. You have a federal PITA on your hands.


author: Sheldon Harper

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"JMartin" <[email]> wrote in news:1143220746.880544.109320
@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:

Use it as it has been used for a long time, as a garage. I wouldn't
put anything live in there full time. You can't make a silk purse
out of a sow's ear.

If you insist on using it for livestock, pick it up and move
it over on to uncontaminated soil. A clever farmer in the
community should be able figure out how to do that without
great expense.

You really need to remediate the oil problem regardless.


author: Goedjn

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On 24 Mar 2006 09:19:06 -0800, "JMartin" <[email]>
wrote:

How much do you imagine a quick & ugly pour of cement is likely
to cost?    I'd at least call and find out what truckload of cement
would cost, delivered.    Cement has the added benefit of being fairly
easy to clean, which dirt really isn't.   If you've got your own
woodlot, you could floor the thing with green lumber.
failing that, you could just plop down plywood, but that would
probably run you a significant fraction of what concrete
would cost. You could also build a sort of deck with hardware mesh
and put plank walkways over it, but I'd worry about vermin
control.

The CHEAPEST solution would probably be a layer of heavy
plastic followed by a couple inches of dirt, but I don't
know how you'd go about maintaining that, or cleaning the coop.

How big is this garage?   How many chickens/rabbits/goats
are you contemplating?   How close to broke are you already?


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"JMartin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Gravel's cheaper than pouring concrete. A coupla-three inches of
gravel ought to do it on the cheep.


author: Lee K

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"JMartin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

As the saying goes, do the math:

A cubic yard of concrete is 27 cubic feet.  There are 1728 cubic inches in
each cubic foot (12*12*12), so a cubic yard is 46,656 cubic inches.

If  you pour a slab 3 inches thick, each square foot would need 432 cubic
inches of concrete  (3*12*12).  So, a cubic yard would cover 108 square feet
at 3 inches thick (46,656 / 432).   That's an area of over 10 feet by 10
feet.

 What's a cubic yard of concrete cost in your area?   $100?   How large an
area do you need to cover? 24 X 24 would be 576 square feet, needing  5.33
cubic yards (576 / 108).    At $100, that's $533.  Only you can decide if
it's worth the expense.


author: Gil Faver

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
I don't know that I would be growing anything to eat there,
but you might study stuff like this and see if you can come
up with any home spun methods of cleaning out that junk.
Lots of air and warmth can't hurt.

http://www.oil-control-systems.nl/nl/oil-gator/oil-gator-algemeen-uk.php

http://www.terrawash.com/twp2.htm

http://www.oiltechnics.co.uk/Oil_Stains/Soil/Soil_Treat.html

http://home.cwru.edu/~eay3/ESR/soil.htm

http://www.frtr.gov/matrix2/section3/3_1.html

"JMartin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
bad, but it is
down anytime
chicken
what.  It is
building is not
undermining
layer of lime
birds?  Any


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Florida" <[email]> wrote in message
posts saying
nation's
use

And from now on, everytime any other nationality uses the word
Budgie/Budgerigar of boomerang, I want a thank you for our indigenous
people too :-))


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Offbreed" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
is

she is poor. She can apply for more free money from the
gummint.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (Lee K) says...

The proper way to cost out concrete is to call the concrete company and
ask for a quote on delivery.  Most companies add a surcharge for a short
load.  I keep a cement mixer around for small jobs, because hand mixing
a few cubic yards is so much cheaper than calling for a short load.


author: John Gilmer

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
You definitely like to figure things the hard way!

Three (3) inches goes into a yard 12 times.

IOW:  One cubic yard will cover 12 square yards of surface 3" thick.

With 9 sq ft/sq yard you get your 108 sq feet per cubic yard.

It's the same result you go but the "math" is a lot easier.

"Lee K" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
feet


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Lee K" <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Labor typically equals the materials cost for projects like
that. Something over $1000 total.

Most places you can get a whole new 2 car garage built
for ~$3000, concrete floor, building permits and all.


author: Ann

subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 19:32:04 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:

So, why are you having such a problem with someone getting a 1%
interest loan ... but not a peep out of you about those discussing
planting commercial species of trees to get a tax reduction?


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Ann" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
It
a 1%
discussing
reduction?

there is only so much I can read.  I haven't seen that
discussion.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Ann <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

I think the 1% loans are a wonderful thing for those who need them.

Based on Jena's disclosure about a program I previously knew nothing
about I passed the information on to several people who really have
need and a legitimate use for it. Thank you Jena.

I am more fortunate and although I would love to get my hands on
1% money I simply don't qualify. I don't begrudge anyone who needs
the help getting it.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 19:05:45 -0500, Sheldon Harper wrote:

I looked it up too.  I was curious if that's the program that is used to
help with the hook-up costs for the new sewer system in the adjoining
township. Looks like it is.  I did notice that with the grants for seniors
that wouldn't be able to pay the money back, there is a 3-year recapture
period.

He died about 25 years ago, but there was man that lived on the adjoining
property that was sort of a hermit.  (Not really though because he did
seek out people to talk to.)  He had a small house, a garage, and 60 acres
of rocky, wooded land.  He was mild mannered and not noticeably psychotic;
he'd worked enough when he was younger to be able to buy the property, but
at some point he was no longer able to cope.  He lived there for ~40 more
years, with no car, no electricity, a wood stove, and a spring for water.
He made some money picking wild blackberries for sale, mowing lawns (with
a reel mower, of course), etc.  Until probably the last 10 years of his
life, the land wasn't really worth selling; similar land was abandoned to
tax sales, as low as $1/acre.

The point I'm getting to here is that county public assistance was wise
enough to provide him with enough money to buy food, etc but otherwise
left him alone. He lived the way he wanted to and taxpayers didn't have
the expense of providing him with public housing and prepared meals.
Often, a modest amount of money spent to enable someone to stay in their
home is a major savings of public funds in the long run.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Sheldon Harper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns9791B8094BBB8sheldharp@208.49.83.94...
news:[email]...
It
getting a 1%
discussing
reduction?
need them.
knew nothing
really have
hands on
who needs

Me neither.  I just think a thank you is in order.  This
money is paid by real people, like you and me.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Ann wrote:
[....]

and that's just plain old good government.
I wish we had some of that around here.

Hi Ann...  <g>


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 01:36:16 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:

OK, then you can start. For example, if you're a member of a REC, then you
should be thanking folks for low cost loans too.  Or, if you benefit
from the reduced tax on stock sales, thank the folks who don't get a break
on their capital gains.  In other words, I'd be surprised if there is
anyone who at some time in their life didn't get a benefit that other
people subsidized.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:54:02 -0500, Jim Ledford wrote:

I doubt we have it around here any more either.  They'd probably foreclose
for unpaid taxes.  They'd try to get him to adapt to some sort of
subsidized housing but the bureauocracy would be overwhelming enough to
cause him to have a psychotic break.  He'd be hospitalized for a while,
then be released to a group home ... where he'd spend the rest of his
life, or until he needed a nursing home. It would cost major $$ and pretty
much ruin his life.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Ann" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
message
what.
the
those
who
anyone
a REC, then you
you benefit
don't get a break
if there is
that other

if you paid the taxes I do, you would realize I am the one
doing the subsidizing.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Ann" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

 How can the government taking less of my money be considered a "benefit
that other people subsidized"?  It just reduces the amount of my money that
is used to subsidize others.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Ann wrote:

95 cents of every dollar intended to enable someone to stay in
their home actually ends up running the bureaucracy.  subsidized
golfing for government privileged class bureaucrats is expensive.
one golf-guy shirt alone can cost over 90 dollars.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 03:01:08 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:

And there are plenty of people who pay more taxes than you do.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:08:53 -0500, Lee K wrote:

Someone has to pay more to make up for the lost revenue. (I assume you
agree that paying less taxes is beneficial.  <g>)


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 09:26:30 -0500, Jim Ledford wrote:

I doubt that number, but even if the administrative cost % was correct, it
would also apply to maintaining people in public facilities.  So the
taxpayers would still come out ahead when people stay in their homes.
Plus, the public gets some of the money back when the home is
eventually sold.  My state's senior benefits are funded by "volunteers"
... via the lottery.  Of course in $/beneficiary terms, the big winners
are the lottery commission employees and contractors.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Ann" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
message
wrote:
news:[email]...
from
previously
who
my
This
of
if
who
surprised
benefit
one
do.

define "plenty".


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Ann" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
who don't get a break
surprised if there is
benefit that other
considered a "benefit
amount of my money that
(I assume you

let's see here - someone paying "only" $100k in taxes is
subsidized by someone paying $4k in taxes, because if the
first was paying $150k, the second would be paying even
less.

Yes, good thinking, Ann!


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Ann wrote:

NC is starting their lottery real soon.  I like your wording of
"volunteers" as players of the lottery.   and you are correct about
the the big winners being the lottery commission employees.  the NC
lottery head person is getting something like 235,000 a year in
salary.  he has a squad of directors getting 95,000 to 125,000 a year.
then the next group get a pay range of 65,000 to 95,000 a year.
several million from those "volunteers" will have to be collected first
to pay the 'new' privilege class lottery people before one dime can even
go towards education.  but they still call it the NC education lottery.
to funny to me since the vast number are to uneducated to see how they've
been fleeced.

my statement of "95 cents of every dollar" was a bit high but makes
the point of how government privileged class people come first and
then the tax payers can have the crumbs.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Gil Faver wrote:

[....]

1a: a full or more than adequate amount or supply
<had plenty of time to finish the job>
b: a large number or amount <in plenty of trouble>
2: the quality or state of being copious : plentifulness

- hth -


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 04:29:58 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:

The person paying $4k is now paying, say, $4.1k; it wold take 500 of them
to make up the difference. It's still a subsidy.

It's what it is.

My state has what's referred to as Clean & Green, a program that reduces
the RE tax assessment for certain agricultural and wooded (or timbered)
land.  The state doesn't fund it. Not surprisingly, the school districts,
municipalities, and county don't feel obligated to reduce their budgets
the appropriate amount to make up for the reduction in the tax base when
property owners register their land for C&G. So the millage goes up. (Yes,
those in C&G do pay some of that increase, but on the lowered assessment.)

Have you considered seeing a good tax accountant?  Or, if you want to
reduce the pain of paying the taxes, donating some assets to the charity
of your choice?  Or, you could spent the time wasted begrudging the $$
that go to "ingrates" on enjoying the $$$$$$ that you keep.  Don't forget,
you don't get to take it with you ... and you won't be around to have the
pleasure of complaining about how much the estate tax was or how the
government spends it.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:54:36 -0500, Jim Ledford wrote:
<...>

Plus, state lotteries aren't the money-makers they were.
http://tinyurl.com/o2yho


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Jim Ledford" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the one
you

in that case, Ann is wrong.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Ann" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
revenue.
subsidized by
paying $150k, the
take 500 of them
program that reduces
(or timbered)
school districts,
their budgets
tax base when
millage goes up. (Yes,
lowered assessment.)
you want to
to the charity
begrudging the $$
keep.  Don't forget,
around to have the
or how the

you fail to respond the the start of this thread.  Is there
anything wrong with those being subsidized saying "thank
you"?


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 05:59:25 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:

Repeating my answer:
"OK, then you can start. For example, if you're a member of a REC, then
you should be thanking folks for low cost loans too.  Or, if you benefit
from the reduced tax on stock sales, thank the folks who don't get a break
on their capital gains.  In other words, I'd be surprised if there is
anyone who at some time in their life didn't get a benefit that other
people subsidized."

No, there is nothing wrong with saying "thank you", but logistically it's
impractical.  And it wouldn't be fair to thank just you and not the other
millions of taxpayers who also subsidize the USDA's 1% interest rate.


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
Ann <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

I wouldn't thank Gil or others in his position who provided the
funds since they had little choice in the matter. If any thanks
are due, I would thank all the voters who created the situation
where the government can redistribute funds directly to those
in drastic need of help.

As far as a vehicle goes, free web pages abound. No computer?
We're subsidizing those in public libraries.

Gil appears to be looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
He should be grateful to live in a nation that allows him to earn
enough to be paying what he considers to be very high taxes where
there aren't, in his worldview, "Plenty of people" who pay even
more.

Gil should also realize that an entire nation of peoples and
economic strata function together. You really can't start
chopping off any of the functioning without affecting the rest,
probably in unpredictable ways. His income depends on the entire
system working as it does.

It sounds to me as though he should be thanking us.

How about it, Gil?


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
(Ann) says...

Yeah, I want a damned 'thank you' every time he turns the key in his
car.  After all, I subsidized his roads, and he hasn't groveled even
once, the ingrate!


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Sheldon Harper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns97925180575D4sheldharp@208.49.83.94...
there
"thank
of a REC, then
Or, if you benefit
don't get a
surprised if there
benefit that other
logistically
you and not the
USDA's 1% interest
provided the
thanks
situation
those

so, the mugger should thank himself, not his victim?

computer?
telescope.
to earn
taxes where
even

I am grateful, but I think it is clear this could be an even
greater country if people realized how much they owe to the
big taxpayers, and treated their money as if it were their
own (hmm, that IS what they are doing!).  No, I mean if they
insisted the government spend the money wisely, even if it
is not they who are paying the vast majority of the tax
money.

and
rest,
entire

yes, thank you for taking the fruits of my hard labor.  You
are doing a helluva job!


subject: Re: Remediating Oily Ground

text:
"Larry Caldwell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
[email]
of a REC, then
Or, if you benefit
don't get a break
surprised if there is
benefit that other
key in his
groveled even

how did you subsidize my roads, if I am paying ten times the
taxes as you are?  (Actually, I don't know how much taxes
you pay).  The only people subsidizing me are those who pay
more taxes.  Or, are they simply subsidizing those paying
far less in taxes even more than I am subsidizing them?


author: Jimmy Diep

subject: Hard Drives/Modem for Sale!

text:
Qty  Model #    Description                           Price
===  =========  ====================================  =====
 1   CP30104    Conner 120mb IDE                      $200
 2   CP3204F    Conner 200mb IDE                      $300
 1   PPI9600SA  Practical Peripheral 9600SA EXTERNAL  $190

The 120mb & modem is about 1.5 years old, and the 200mb are
about 1 year old.  All are in perfect working condition.

If you're interested in any of the above, please respond
through e-mail.

Jimmy


author: Ken Corey - Operator

subject: Re: Hard Drives/Modem for Sale!

text:
[email] (Jimmy Diep) writes:

What kind of warranty would you give me for the 200MB drive?  Brand new ones
are $340 or so with a 2 year old.

Ken == [email] == [email]
 Get forgiveness now -- tomorrow you may no longer feel guilty.


author: Chih-Lung Sung

subject: For sale : Sound Blaster

text:
For sale : Sound Blaster

* 6 months old
* Origianl everything : packing box, manual, disk, registration card,
                        headphone-RCA cable

* Price : $60 + shipping + COD ( if you prefer )

Thanks.

Please response to this account "[email]".


author: Alan Collett

subject: Re: Good News (I think) but CATCH-22

text:
Yvonne,

Over the last month we have found that 410 applications are suddenly
being processed in London very quickly - we believe this is because of a
new person in charge who wants to reduce the waiting period for this
visa category for reasons we know not what.

Re Australian Unity: you CAN take out cover before you arrive - happy to
advise as needs be in that regard, as we can help arrange this cover.

I think you can take it that you have a visa grant so long as you
provide the information requested, so its time to commit!

Enjoy the Bank Holiday, and best regards.

Originally posted by yafm
Sorry to babble   I am n a state of shock at the speed of this
application.


author: yafm

subject: Re: Good News (I think) but CATCH-22

text:
I don't think I would put anyone in that position or risk having my visa
revoked for fraud at any time.  I will wait and have a rush at
organising everything when we get a rental agreement legally.  But
thanks for the suggestion.


subject: Re: Good News (I think) but CATCH-22

text:
Returned from cruise (super) today to find letters dated 19th April from
Australia House.

We applied for 410 subclass visa on 12th March.

The letter says they require:

Proof that we have TAKEN OUT a medical insurance with an
australian company

             we sent them a brochure of Australian Unity - who will not
             take you as a customer UNTIL you are in australia!!!!!!!!!!
             How shall we get this confirmation so far in advance?

A Tenancy agreement showing we  are receiving income from our
house rental

             we obviously don't want to rent our property and go INTO
             RENTED while we wait!!!!!!!!!!   and it will probably take
             a couple of months to find a tenant and sort things out.
             (and we will have to remove furniture for shipping to
             australia.)

The letter continues.........WHEN they have received this information
TOGETHER with our current passports they will FINALISE the
application...........

Am I reading this correctly     Have we got the visa (depending on the
two confirmation documents?)

If so how long do they take to stamp the passports (as we have another
holiday arranged)

Sorry to babble   I am n a state of shock at the speed of this
application.


subject: Re: Good News (I think) but CATCH-22

text:
Originally posted by mashiraz

Yes what you say is true   Medical insurance no problem BJUT  how can we
get a signed tenancy agreement that would not start for a couple of
months.   No one books that far in advance do they?   Also it may take
that much time to get a tenant at a decent price   (I've got the
depressions now  boo hoo)


author: mrladyboy

subject: Re: Good News (I think) but CATCH-22

text:
Originally posted by yafm

Hey, Yvonne, come on, think about it!!!

They want to see a signed Tenancy Agreement. So give them one!

OK, so what if it's your best friends that agree to rent your property
and sign the agreement? And so what if, by mutual agreement, you all
decide not to go ahead with the tenancy at some point in the future? At
that point you'll just have to find some new tenants (e.g. ones that
really will rent your property!).

Just suppose these events happened? It would mean, by some strange
coincidence, that you had the signed tenancy agreement that you need.
And, when the time comes, you'll have to find some genuine tenants...
like you were going to anyway.

It sounds like you're on your way :-)


author: TDe

subject: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
Hi,

My daughter is turning 4 this April and we are thinking of sending her
to preschool.  We are also looking long term and considering home
schooling as well.  I feel like an idiot because I barely know anything
on either issue, so can someone help me out?

School:
Pros or Cons for Preschool?
Costs?
Where are preschools/know of any good ones in Smithfield, RI (where we
live)?
What is the birthday cut off for Kindergarten?
How do you go about enrolling a child in school?

Home schooling:
Pros or Cons for Home-school?
Costs?
Any home-schooling groups in Smithfield, RI?
Do I have to have certain qualifications to home-school my own child?
We are thinking of putting her into school for the first few years then
pulling her out to home-school...do you think this is a good idea?
In your opinion, what grade should we begin homeschooling?

Any help or related information would be appreciated, thank you!


author: Ruthann Biel

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
In article <[email]>, TDe wrote:

Take this list to the library and see what you can find:

Books About Homeschooling and Education:

And the Skylark Sings With Me:  Adventures in Homeschooling and
    Community-Based Education
	ALBERT, David

Awakening Your Child's Natural Genius: Enhancing Curiousity, Creativity,
    and Learning Ability
In Their Own Way:  Discovering & Encouraging Your Child's Personal
    Learning Style
The Myth of the A.D.D. Child
7 Kinds of Smart:  Identifying & Developing Your Multiple Intelligences
	ARMSTRONG, Thomas

And What About College?:  How Homeschooling Can Lead to Admissions to the
    Best Colleges and Universities
	COHEN, Cafi and FARENGA, Patrick

Hard Times In Paradise
Homeschooling For Excellence
	COLFAX, David & Micki

The Art of Education
The Homescholing Book of Answers:  The Most Important Questions Answered
    by Homeschooling"s Most Respected Voices
Homeschooling:  The Early Years:  Your Complete Guide to Successfully
    Homeschooling the 3-8-Year-Old Child
Homeschooler's Success Stories:  15 Adults and 12 Young People Share
    the Impact That Homeschooling Has Made on Their Lives
	DOBSON, Linda

Dumbing Us Down
The Exhausted School
	GATTO, John Taylor

The Homeschooling Handbook
The Unschooling Handbook:  How to Use the Whole World As Your Child's
    Classroom
	GRIFFITH, Mary

Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense
	GUTERSON, David

How I Became An Autodidact
	HAILEY, Kendall

Escape From Childhood
Freedom and Beyond
Growing Without Schooling:  A Record of a Grassroots Movement
How Children Fail
How Children Learn
Learning All The Time
What Do I Do Monday?
	HOLT, John
	(Growing..., edited by Patrick Farenga)

Homeschooling:  A Patchwork of Days:  Share a day with 30 Homeschooling
    Families
	LANDE, Mancy

Learning At Home:  A Mother's Guide to Homeschooling
	LANE, Marty

I Learn Better By Teaching Myself & Still Teaching Ourselves
	LEISTICO, Agnes

The Teenage Liberation Handbook:  How to Quit School & Get a Real Life
    and Education
Real Lives:  Eleven Teenagers Who Don't Go To School
	LLEWELLYN, Grace

School Can Wait
The Successful Homeschool Family Handbook
	MOORE, Raymond & Dorothy

The Home School Source Book
	REED, Jean & Donn

The Complete Home Learning Source Book:  The Essential Resource Guide for
    Homeschoolers, Parents, and Educators Covering Every Subject from
    Arithmetic to Zoology
Getting Started on Home Learning:  How and Why to Teach Your Kids at Home
	RUPP, Rebecca

The book of Learning and Forgetting
	SMITH, Frank

Better Than School
Child's Work:  taking Children's Choices Seriously
	WALLACE, Nancy

	I didn't send my son to preschool.  Actually he has never been to
	school.  He is now 16, well read, plays violin and viola very
	well, and is coming together as a person very nicely.  He hopes
	to start with a few college classes soon.

	If you are going to use public schools, visit your neighborhood
	school, and start asking questions.  Some school districts have
	alternative schools like Montesorri, Basic, Waldorf, etc.

	Why do we homeschool?

	We homeschool so our child can learn at his own pace, fast or slow
	or inbetween.

	We homeschool so our child can learn what he wants to learn, when he
	wants to learn it.

	We homeschool so our child can learn to socialize at his own pace,
	unfolding in a gentle natural way.

	We homeschool because it is fun to learn and we don't want school
	with its predeterminded agenda to squelch that joyful attitude
	toward learning.

	We homeschool because we trust the learning rhythms of our child.

	We live and we learn and it is hard to tell the difference.

	Check out http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/
	They have loads of homeschooling information.
	They also have lists of support groups at
	http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/regional/RhodeIsland.htm#Support%20Groups

	You have already homeschooled her for 4 or 5 years.  You have helped
	learn to talk, one of the biggest tasks a human has to learn!

	Requirements for homeschooling vary from state to state.  Connect with
	other homeschoolers for accurate information.


author: Amanda

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
You have gotten some good advice here and also some uninformed
opinions. I hope you will look around the internet LOTS more if you
want to find a clear picture of the homeschooling issue.
Maybe try these two to start with...
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/
http://forums.about.com/ab-homeschool/

And I wanted to give my alternative views to the following:

In the real world I don't know of any situation where 30 people of the
same age are kept together to "socialize" and learn only amongst
themselves for 8 hours every day. Additionally, if we are talking more
specifically about "real world learning", I find my own "real world"
experiences do not match those I had in school. The things most adults
find interesting are the things they choose to study. Many people stick
to only one or two main subjects for years at a time once they are left
to their own choices. While this may not be the best course for
children, still the idea that public schools offer some sort of "real
world" experience is not well founded. I would imagine the "field
trips" you could provide to the post office, library, grocery store,
park, museum, and zoo would qualify more as reality than the
superficial corralling of same-aged children in one place. That sounded
more harsh than I intended. My own son did go to preschool and we both
enjoyed the experience for the most part, but I wouldn't recommend it
based on fear of missing out on real life.

Well, maybe. And if your child has never met a native American when
she's 10 she may be scarred for life, but in theory the purpose of
school is the actual academic education. If you model openmindedness
and acceptance of differences at home, she will take those lessons with
her along with her math and reading. I would argue that it is NOT
difficult for childrent to learn about diversity unless you chain them
in the basement. You will find role models of many different
ethnicities at all the places I mentioned previously.

I suppose this depends on how you define "difficult." You will have to
seek out these opportunities yourself; they will not be dropped at your
door. However, I think if you get in touch with some homeschooling
support groups you will find that there are co-ops or combined learning
opportunities for things like music and sports, and if not there are
city-league teams (for sports), and private tutors or group
after-school classes for music in most locales. As for clubs, Girl
Scouts and 4H are two that jump immediately to mind and neither of
these mandate ps attendance. In fact, most places have enough interest
within the HS community to host their own such groups. The previous
writer is correct in that most HSers probably don't participate in the
school district's programs, but every family I know participates in
many many extra-curricular activities. Some are in the car so much they
use the term "car-schooling" to describe the academics they prepare
solely for their car rides.

Not exactly. Homeschooling requires the willingness of parents to learn
what is necessary to educate their children. You are likely bright
enough to get your daughter through 3rd grade or so with absolutely no
outside help. But all along the way there are countless programs
designed to help you teach her what she wants or needs to know. Those
teachers' manuals are wonderful things. You can read up on what is to
be covered the week before. Keep in mind, in many states teachers do
not have to have an actual degree in their field of teaching, but only
a Teaching Degree. Well, you are your dd's most attentive teacher and
"classroom management" wont apply to your 1, 2, or 5 child classroom so
you need not worry about that part. This myth that the teachers are
somehow better qualified to teach Your daughter is one that I hope you
will be able to bypass. Though some teachers are wonderful, none have a
more vested interest in this student than you do.

This may be true. You will need to do some research on your state (as
others have already said).

Yes. This is true. The time issue... you will spend more time on the
teaching in the early years, especially before your daughter can read.
I have heard the time demands let up a bit after 3rd grade or so when
kids can begin to work independently more often. But do not think you
will have to be copying an 8 hour school day at home. Consider that you
will not have to wait for any other children, when your daughter is
finished with her work you can move on. There will be no standing in
line, quieting (other) unruly kids, calling roll, or busy work. I
remember a study that found that roughly 2-4 hours of the public school
day is actually spent on instruction. (Of course, i can't remember
*where* that was. If you are interested it may have been on the John
Holt website or possibly among articles and speeches by John Taylor
Ghatto.)

Anyway, as to the rest of your post. I considered PS for the early
years myself, and thought I would bring ds (the only one school aged
right now) home around 3rd or 4th grade since that was when our state's
curriculum moved from the basics to more in-depth study. Once i started
to see his natural excitement waning under the piles of busy work he
was bringing home, I decided it was not worth the free time. Still, as
I said, we did enjoy preschool. You know, nothing has to be permanent.
You can give it a go, and if it isn't working out bring her back home.
I just don't want you to be scared off of homeschooling by anything
you've read on this thread. Good luck,

Amanda


author: toto

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
On 23 Feb 2006 23:44:06 -0800, "TDe" <[email]> wrote:

Depends on what kind of preschool you are looking for.
A good preschool will concentrate on social and emotional development
as well as on cognitive and physical development.  Imo, many kids
enjoy preschool because they have few opportunities to play with other
kids in the neighborhood.  Children of 3 and 4 are social creatures
and are beginning to want friendships.  If your neighborhood is one
that allows for lots of free play with other children, you *may* not
need preschool.

OTOH, if your child has special needs or if your child has a hard time
making friends in the neighborhood, preschools offer a way to learn
those skills under the supervision of people who understand child
development and who can scaffold her to the next level.  A good preK
will help children develop independence and interests and it will also
prepare them for the regular school experience.

Vaires a lot.  It will depend on whether you go for a half day
preschool or an all day preK with daycare.   Call around.

No, but your best source for this would be other parents in your area.
You can start by looking in the phone book and visiting schools.  When
you visit have a list of questions you want asked and go around pick
up or drop off time.   Talk to parents who have children in the 4 year
old class as well as asking the director and teachers questions about
the program.  Look for NAEYC accredited programs if you can because
these usually adhere to a higher standard than the state licensing
board requires.  OTOH, don't worry if a center is not accredited since
it may adhere to the standards anyway and just not have the money or
time to go through the accreditation process.

A good source of general information about what to look for is:
http://www.zerotothree.org/

One list of questions (for daycare as well as preschools)
Some questions are ones to think about and watch for when
you observe, others can be directly asked of the director or
teachers.  Some questions will be answered in the brochure
you get from the center.

http://www.zerotothree.org/ztt_parents.html

*  What training do staff have in infant/toddler development?
* Does the caregiver use straightforward, simple words to talk with my
child?
* Are activities and schedules explained to my child?
* Are toys and materials well organized so my child can choose what
interests her?
* Is this caregiver able to accommodate the special needs of my child?
* Does the environment accommodate the special needs of my child?
* Does this caregiver respect the language, culture and values of my
family?
* Do the caregiver and I agree on discipline? Weaning? Toileting?
Feeding?
* Can this person handle conflicts without losing patience, shaming a
child or frequently displaying anger?
* Does the caregiver enjoy children?
* Am I welcome to drop in at any time?
* Will my child feel good about coming here?
* Is the environment sanitary and safe?
* Is the place appealing with comfortable lighting and an acceptable
noise level?
* Is the child care program licensed by the state or local government?
* Is the child care program accredited by the National Association for
the Education of Young Children or the National Association of Family
Child Care?
* Are the caregivers certified by the Council for Early Childhood
Professional Recognition with a Child Development Associates degree
credential for infant/toddler caregivers or an equivalent credential
that addresses comparable competencies (such as an associates or
bachelors degree)?
* Is there a primary caregiver for my child?
* Are the ratios and group size appropriate for my child's age?

What are the hours that the center is open?
What kinds of snacks and meals are served?  Do parents bring
children's lunches or are they provided?
What are the provisions for separation issues?
What kinds of *academic* activities are provided?  Are these age
appropriate and hands on?
What is the daily schedule like?  How much free play do children have?
How much time is spent outside?  How much time is spent in teacher
directed as opposed to child-led activities?
What curriculum is used?  Do the activities arise out of the
children's interests or are the activities strictly themed by the
teachers without varying between classrooms?

My information for Rhode Island is from 2001.  According to that
the cutoff date for K is 5 by September 1st, but many districts have
changed that since 2001 and you should call the school district and
ask.

For preschool, you pay your fee and fill out the forms given to you
by the school.  For K, usually there is a visiting day and you are
given the forms at that time.  Call the district if you are talking
about the public schools.  Call the individual schools if you are
talking about private schools.

Flexibility is a big plus for homeschooling. You will be able to take
advantage of all kinds of non-classroom resources and to follow
her interests wherever they take her.  School curriculum is more
rigid and can take away a child's enthusiasm for learning.

OTOH, not every parent can homeschool.  You need to have the
temperament and patience to guide your child through what she needs
to learn.  Not everyone can do that.

It also can foster a loss of independence for the child because her
parents are constantly with her.  For some kids, this works fine, for
others, it's not so great.

This depends on what you count as costs.  We argue about this
all the time on the education groups.  Many parents feel that the
cost is minimal, but don't forget to evaluate the opportunity costs
in terms of any income that would have been earned if one parent
did not stay home and don't forget to total up the cost of any
thing you might do differently if you sent the child to school.

http://www.eho.org/support/country.asp?countryid=4
http://www.rihomeschool.com/

Check the laws in Rhode Island.  Every state is different.

For legal issues, I suggest this website:
http://www.hslda.org/Default.asp?bhcp=1

Here is a summary of the RI law:
http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp?State=RI

It looks like you don't need any special qualifications.

Most parents do this the other way around.  Kids are often
homeschooled in the early grades and then placed in school
in high school or middle school when the parent might have
difficulty with particular subjects that are covered in the curriculum
particularly math and science (it's not easy to set up a science
lab for more advanced subjects at home).

Good luck in your decision making process.
You may want to look for yahoo groups on homeschooling
or try the babycenter bulleting board for homeschooling to
answer more of these kinds of questions.

http://parentcenter.bbs.babycenter.com/board/bigkid/gpreschool/18679


author: Info Junkie

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
On 23 Feb 2006 23:44:06 -0800, "TDe" <[email]> wrote:

Might I suggest you to challenge yourself by looking into the pro and cons
within your area? Congratulations on recognizing the "long term" benefits for
you and your child.

You may want to start your research with the local laws and those of the state.
How does RI and local laws apply to home-schoolers? Check with your local home
schooling association.  (Note When posting on the public school system, my
opinions center on the  elementary and high school level..not public colleges)

In my experiences I've found that if you seek your answers about home schooling
from your local public schools or those closely affiliated with the public
school system in general , you usually get answers that range from ignorance to
to downright lies.  The public school system has an a vested financial interest
in maintaining and increasing the number of children going to public schools,
and (in many cases) the philosophy they espouse.

Unfortunately, too many parents take the "easy way" out by just dropping their
kids off at the public school without question or forthought.  Many times these
are the same parents in later years that can't understand why their kids end up
or remain in trouble. While I suspect most don't do so intentionally, they leave
the "parenting" to the the public school system, i.e. the teachers. Tteachers
that should never have been given such a responsibility for the payceck they
receive.   THIS is the "norm"...whether most parents would accept this premise
or not does not mean it's not the "norm"...it is, and the results are evident.
This may be seen throughout society and backed by the academic standing of the
US when compared with 20-40 years ago, and the social ills seen throughout the
country in our public schools.

Some see the parents that homeshool do so to "isolate" the child from others, or
the parent a "dependent" on the child...even to the point of exploitation. This
is not the "norm" but the exception...and it is the exception that is touted and
exploited by those that desire to retain their monoply, and they take great
offense at their monopoly being challenged.

There are those that argue the "socialization" perspective as the need for pubic
schooling., or that you might see how other parents raise their kids. From this
POV, You might want to ask yourself:

1. Is one of the primary reasons you want to raise your kids is by following the
way your neighbors raise their kids?

If yes, you might consider letting others raise your children, as it would
appear you're not be mature enough to raise kids. (Have you seen the neighbors
kids? Especially the teenagers? :-)

If no, then you may be thinking for yourself.

2.  Is one of the primary reasons you want to send your child to any school is
to learn to be social or academically qualified? To be liked for being able to
"get along" or respected for their views?

If socialization: Do you live in a cave where your child will have no
interaction with others? Friends/relatives? Parks/museums ? Sports? Girl/boy
Scouts? Church?

If academic: Have you seen the study guides and curriculum to be used to teach
you child? Have you sat in a public pre-school classroom for a few days, even to
help out the teacher?  Do you agree with the studies and methodologies being
used? (In most public schools, your only input to the curriculum and/or school's
policies is through your local school board)

FWIW, you've raised a "pre-schooler" up to this point. When did you become too
"dumb" to continue teaching your child?  Up until now, what "qualifications" did
you "require" to raise your child?

While I admit to being pro-home school, I do not "blame" individual teachers,
but the "system" with which they have to work within...and the parents that
apparently don't care. IMHO, I suspect many of these parents (in general) have
been "raised" over the last 60+ years that things such as "socialization" is of
primary importance, with poor academic results usually blamed on:
a. Poor parenting skills
b. Lack of funding
c. Over-crowded classes
d. Unfunded mandates (example: NCLB)

IOW, NEVER the fault of the public school system. (Don't believe it? Just ask
them :-)

The claim is that most parents aren't capable of teaching their children...even
when studies have disproven this nonsensical rhetoric.   Some advocates of
public school have even put forth the excuse that at least in the public school
system, a child's immune system may be improved as the child interacts with
other children's sickness'! Oh my. So THAT is why children send their kids to
public schools...to build up their immune system?

Bottom line: It's your child that will be effected, regardless of what other
parents (or those closely affiliated with the public school system) do or say
for their own.  Stand up; follow the laws in your area, and decide what values
and beliefs you want for your children, not what others think is best for your
children. That may be in a public school, home school or private school
(sectarian or religious) environment or your choice. Study all sides of the
issue and don't allow their opinion (or ignorance of the facts) to belittle your
worth to your child, academically or otherwise.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/RI/default.asp
http://www.nheri.org/
http://www.nheri.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=21

"...every person must be his own watchman for truth... -Justice Jackson


author: Bruce McGuffin

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
"TDe" <[email]> writes:

My view of pre-schools is why do it if you don't have to. So long as
you can find play groups or neighborhood children to play with,
there's nothing useful you child will learn in pre-school she can't
learn at home. In fact, you should avoid pre-schools with
academic programs. She should be busy learning the unstructured
lessons: e.g, if you want her to excel in math later, put her in a
sandbox, or a pile of leggos/tinkertoys/building blocks now. There is
even some evidence that the earlier a child is taught to read, the
more likely she is to develop reading impairments (read David Elkind's
The Hurried Child). If you think she needs more social time, try to
find a pre-school that meets half-days or less, and has a program of
free play, music, art, etc. Your daughter can learn how to stand in
line and write her letters in kindergarten. Kids who are pushed at an
early age don't stay out front unless they are kids who would have
excelled without being pushed -- about 5th or 6th grade the kids
resort themselves by actual ability.

My own home schooling experience was limited, so I don't know how much
help I'll be. I started my kids in public school, was unsatisfied,
moved them to private school, was still unsatisfied with my son's
school, home schooled him for awhile and new both my children are in a
small private high school with a strong emphasis on academics, and a
student body that is fairly accepting of social
non-conformists. Homeschooling was the thing to do at the time, but my
son is happier now that he is in a suitable school. We worked hard to
be sure he had an outside-the-home activity every day, usually one
with other children, but he preferes being at school. Maybe it would
have been different if he started out home schooled.

If you do go the home school/private school route, avoid groups or
programs with "gifted" in the title or mission statement. The g-word
draws a bad crowd.

Bruce


author: Thomas Reynolds

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
"TDe" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It is hard to let go of your kid so they can develop the autonomy necessary
for adult success.  So start early so you don't act out *your* need to cling
to them, get free of it ASAP.  Assuming a lot of intense contact with you so
far (a good thing which gives kids confidence), preschool will help in
socializing the kid and give you a lot of insight into how other parents are
dealing with raising their kids...good insight for you.  Down side is colds
and childhood illnesses start a little earlier than if you wait for
kindergarten, but the kid's immune system will love you for it over the long
haul.  Make sure; however, that it is a *good* preschool and not a kiddy
warehouse.
Home schooling?  The best homeschooling I have heard of involved genius-type
parents with genius-type kids and it allowed the kids to move faster and
further than the public schools.  These kids wind up entering college at 16
etc or winning national contests, etc.  The worst home schooling is that
which is done to "protect" the kids, as it is really the parent acting out
an unhealthy dependency on the kid, a role reversal of the worst kind (for
the kid).  That kind of home schooling is an excuse for a parent to satisfy
their dependency on the child by exploiting the poor kid, who will be a
weird adult as a result.  Very few mothers have the talent to teach the full
range of courses required for a complete education.  Very few teachers do
either, but the kid gets a different teacher every year in school.  In
higher grades, the teachers are subject specialists in math or science etc.
which is even harder for one person (a mother) to compete with.  Being a
parent is the best example of the truth of the saying "If you really love
someone, set them free."
Send the kid to school (preschool if you can find a good one), and sooner is
better than later.  (I sent both my kids to preschool and never regretted
it. Both have turned out as very competent adults...the real objective,
right?)


author: Bob Ficoturo

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
Hi TDe

"TDe" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Pros: Preschool is useful for a number of reasons.  For children, it begins
the process of interacting with and understanding the rules of group
dynamics.  It is especially helpful if your child doesn't get much
opportunity to socialize with other children.  Also, most children are ready
for structured learning well before the age of 5 when kindergarten starts.
Good preschools introduce, in a formal way, the concepts of music/art and an
appreciation for the world around them.

Cons: Some children are not emotionally mature enough to begin preschool,
just as some are not mature enough to make the transition from kindergarten
to first grade.  Children develop at different rates and that's just the way
it is.  It all evens out eventually.  Other cons are cost and convenience.
It usually is not cheap to find good preschools.  As well, it can be quite
inconvenient.  If you have a half hour drive in rush our traffic to get
there and a half hour drive back, and have to do that again at the end of
the day, then you are compelled to schedule your day aound that activity...
not always easy to do, and you will spend 2 hours a day in the car.

Costs range from affordable to outrageous.  Usually, you can use the "you
get what you pay for" approach for analyzing the quality and efficacy of
preschools.  However, some religious preschools can be quite affordable and
effective.  Know, however, that religion will be taught to your child in
that environment.  Some employers make preschools available to their
employees on site at very affordable rates - some free.  Some of these are
among the best preschools, and they also tend to eliminate the inconvenience
issue.

Sorry, I don't have a clue there.

These vary from school district to school district.  Just call the school
and they will be glad to help with the information you need.

Pros: Homeschooling offers an incredible opportunity for parents and
children to bond in a way that most parents would envy... it really ups the
ante on quality time.  It also gives a parent the opportunity to influence
their child in a way that is consistent with the values and mores of the
parent.  In any learning environment, children will succeed commensurate
with the amount of participation by the parent.  That is, the more parents
are involved in their children's education, the better the chance that the
child will be successful.  Homeschooling provides the maximum amount of
parental participation.  It is important to note that parental participation
cannot be delegated to teachers.

Cons: Homeschooling works best when children do not have special needs.  If
your child has these needs, you may, or may not have access to the resources
you need through the school district.  whether you do or don't, it will be
very inconvenient (and perhaps costly) for you to acquire those resources.
Public schools provide a "real world" environment for learning which is
difficult/impossible to recreate at home.  Children usually come in contact
with people from various cultures and ethnicities, and are enriched as a
result of that.  It is difficult to teach children about the value of
diversity and inclusion when in a homeschool environment.  Group activities
like sports, music, clubs, etc. are difficult to recreate at home.  Some
school districts allow homeschooled children to participate in these
activities, but most who are homeschooled don't.  Homeschooling also
requires some parental expertise in the various disciplines required by the
school district.  Your child will be tested in these disciplines and
expected to pass.  Additionally, homeschooling requires patience,
commitment, discipline, and time - lots of time.  You need to understand
that before you jump in with both feet.

The cost of homeschooling varies based on the school district and the
parents' situation.  If you sacrifice working to stay home to educate your
children, then the cost of that sacrifice has to to be considered.
Materials like books, for example, are provided by some school districts and
are not by others.  However, many parents that homeschool prefer to choose
their own textbooks.  Finally, whatever the cost of homeschooling, one must
also consider that homeschoolers are also paying the taxes to educate their
children in public schools whether they do so or not.

Your local school district may be able to answer that question for you.

It will be difficult for you to teach math if you did not do well in the
subject yourself.  I know of no school districts that require certifications
or degrees to homeschool (I certainly don't know all of them or even yours),
but they will require your child to pass proficiency tests.

I am not a fan of homeschooling.  That's not to say it's a bad idea... it is
to say that we value certain things that would be impossible to teach
children who are homeschooled.  Both my wife and I have teaching degrees
(both in music education - my wife taught for a living, I didn't) and have
had the opportunity to take the long view of education pros and cons.
Ultimately, the things that matter the most are the degree to which parents
are involved in their children's education, and the degree to which parents
prepare their children each day to be schooled (well fed, loved, secure, and
motivated).  A child's success can be more correlated to that then whether
or not they were homeschooled.

Hope this helps some.

Bob F.
o-iii<0


author: Z

subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
Amanda wrote:

Be careful trusting some faceless, anonymous information source on the
Internet. Many web sites - like many people on Usenet - have an agenda
to push. Read a LARGE, VARIED SELECTION, not just a few that are cherry
picked for you.

A good education is your child's future.  Don't muck it up.

Google is your friend.


subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:36:19 -0500, "Bob Ficoturo"
<[email]> wrote:

Not really.  I have seen plenty of elite preschools that do no better
job than normal developmentally based preschools.

I will say that often smaller preschools are better because they have
a more intimate atmosphere and for young children, they provide
more of what they really need.


subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
Hi Dorothy

"toto" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You perhaps didn't read my response further along where I pointed out
exceptions to my statement.

Bob F.
o-iii<0


subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:08:51 -0500, "Bob Ficoturo"
<[email]> wrote:

You mentioned religious schools.  I did see that.  However, I don't
think that religious schools are the only option that is better than
higher priced preschools.

Competition for preschool slots is a bit weird, imo, but I know it
happens in NYC and other places.  My own feeling is that this does
not benefit the child particularly.


subject: Re: RI Schooling vs Home-Schooling

text:
Hi

"toto" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I also made mention of employer sponsored preschools as some of most
affordable and best, as well as indicated there were other exceptions.
These were pointed out after I said "generally", you get what you pay for.

It will certainly benefit some more than others.

Bob F.
o-iii<0


author: [redacted]

subject: FS: CDROM 4X SCSI

text:
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Reply if Interested

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author: Ed Pisciotta

subject: Forecast Results

text:
The following are recent forecast results made by "Dow Crystal Ball
(DCB)." DCB scientifically forecasts the DOW Industials based on 25
economic indicators. Some of these forecasts were posted on these
newsgroups. At http://www.monmouth.com/~edp2 you can review forecasts,
the 25 economic indicators, the theory and download a free economic
indicator data base, a free demo, a free help file or purchase the
forecasting software ($60) that made these predictions.

=== Forecast Results ===

Dec - At the end of December 1996, the Dow closed the month at 6544.
At that time, the forecast for the end of January 1997 was 7042. That
was a strong buy signal. The Dow rose above 6900 during the 3rd week
of January and closed the month at 6737. The Dow then rose above 7000
during the second week of February. That's a near bull's eye. The
direction was correct. The magnitude was correct and it was just about
12 days late. This called a top and the January forecast
called the turn.

Jan - A forecast was made at the end of January 1997. The Dow was
forecast to be 6490 at the end of February. That was a strong sell
signal. This was a controversial forecast. It was not correct
but you didn't lose much by following the signal. You could have been
collecting interest in a money market fund without taking any risk. At
the end of February the Dow 6960 so the big drop did not
occur but resistance kept sending the Dow back down each time it rose
above 7000. By the first week of March, the Dow hit 6852.

Feb - The Dow closed out the month of February at 6960. At that time,
the forecast for the end of March was 6804 (posted here). The sell
signal has continued. On March 20, the Dow decended below 6804.

=== Definitions/etc. ====

The closing monthly value of the Dow was taken as the average of the
daily highs and daily low's of all the trading days of the last week
of the month. This was done to smooth the data. Buy and sell signals
will not be correct every time. Nor will forecasts be right on target
every time. Forecasts are scientific estimates based on economic
indicators. They should be more often somewhat right than somewhat
wrong. Forecasts represent probabilities. An edge. The casinos do
ok with their little edge but with enough exuberance, the market can
continue to be overvalued for some time. The data base begins December
1991.


author: richard

subject: Re: Here you go, the video you requested....

text:
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 22:31:27 -0700, "theloneranger1OO"
<[email]> wrote:

Finally watched the short video and it would appear you are going down
a slight grade. As I've said, my safari will show the same basic thing
on a downhill grade. 60mpg on a 6% down grade while showing only 12mpg
up a 6% grade.