author: Kathy Cole

text:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:23:16 GMT, "Circe" <[email]> wrote:

Victoria, no.  Other posters to the thread and its offshoots, yep.


author: Victoria Frerichs

subject: Re: LONG (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH)

text:
Circe <[email]> wrote in message
news:U7LW8.89533$[email]...
a

DING DING DING! WE have a winner! :)

Victoria


author: Meghan

text:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:52:08 -0700, "Jenrose" <[email]> wrote:

rofl - of course!


author: Kandace Wright

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Jolene" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
in

I have to ask what is it that I've done that makes you think I need to grow
up?  Have I upset you so much as to warrant these personal attacks?

And where did the "...friends you think walked away only because you
breastfeed or stay at home" come from?  I am pretty sure I've never posted
anything like that here.  Oh my, I realize it now, I'm so
flattered....you've read my blog!  That seems so weird to me to read the
journal of someone you don't like.  Unless maybe you really like me, ;)
That's it, you do.

Awww.


author: Jenrose

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message
news:YcBW8.460478$cQ3.37039@sccrnsc01...
to
hmmmm...".
talking
she
to
to
right

And that's exactly how I would expect it to be handled myself, too.
Jen


author: Penny Gaines

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
Kandace Wright wrote:
[snip]

Hang on, she didn't say he was uncommited, just that he had less of
the relevant knowledge.  From one of her other posts, she said that
he didn't know that it was normal for milk to take a few days to come
in, *or* that it was normal for a baby to lose weight.

Now he knows those things.  With this 'new' information, he should be
able to stand up to the nurses more easily.

The trust thing is a different matter.  I don't blame Victoria for
feeling somewhat bruised right now, but she now she has vented a bit,
then she needs to think where she wants her marriage to go.
Personally, I think if she makes the decision to trust him, or at
least act as if she did, she will have a better marriage then if she
acts as if she does not trust him.  How will he feel if she refuses
to leave him in charge of the baby while she showers in hospital?
What will his bond with the baby be like?


author: Rosalie B.

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Aimee" <[email]> wrote:
<snip>

There are things that should be communicated in marriage and things that
should not.  For instance, I think it is not helpful to give specific
details of sexual encounters that either person had before they met the
other one.  And I don't think the partner should ask such questions.  What
you did with an old boyfriend is not particularly relevant (although now
days one could ask if they ever did drugs or had unprotected sex I guess -
that wasn't something on the horizon when I got married.)

Some men have issues with bf.  I'm not saying he did, but some of them do.

SOme people (my son and my sister are two of them) are just not good at
confrontation.  THey will do anything including lying in order to avoid
controversy or trouble.  You can't reasonably expect these people to
change.  The only way you can get them to tell you what they really think
or what really happened is to make it easy for them to tell you.  If you
threaten them with dire things if you find out that they have done
something (If I ever find out who broke my lamp they will be sorry, or in
this case - if I find out why the nurses gave my ds a bottle I will never
trust him again), then they will keep quiet about it and not tell you.

Yes - that WAS how they did it then.  We didn't CHOOSE to do it that way.
There wasn't too much of an option.

I don't know that you know that.  Sometimes people tell other people what
they think they want to hear.  And if Victoria was particularly insistent
that she wanted XYZ, he may not have wanted to cross her.

Yes there is another point of view.  Just because she is the one dispensing
the milk does not mean that he does not have a point of view different from
hers.  And is perfectly entitled to it, whether wrong or right.

I agree with that, but think her beef should be with them and not him.

I was thinking of him divorcing her.  In that he hasn't really done
anything so awful in the grand scheme of things (as you've indicated above
- he hasn't had an affair with someone) and if she makes it too
uncomfortable for him, then maybe it won't be worth it.

What was her fault (IMO) is that she is blaming everything on him, rather
than the staff.  The staff was the one that didn't bring the baby, that
pressured the dh.

The other problem I have is that (at least in the OP) there was a little
too much of what my mother would have called 'washing your dirty linen in
public'.  She seem to me to be completely disrespectful of her husband.
What I want from my dh is not that he should agree with me about
everything, not that he discuss his feelings ad nauseum, but that he
respects me, and doesn't downgrade my authority with the children or say
bad stuff about me to other people even if he swears at me in private.
Victoria has been doing that in spades.

She did say

 (although in a recent post she says her dh is OK with what she's been
saying - I certainly wouldn't be)  I refuse to say 'oh you poor thing' to
someone who is being so nasty about someone that they are still married to
- it might be understandable if he were an ex who beat her or cheated on
her, but that is not apparently the case here.

grandma Rosalie


subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
Teh Te of Poopei <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Well, his side of the story has been discussed in detail on mkp, with Rose
Kish.  So, if you care to read it, meander on over there.  Personally, I
don't think typing it out again for someone who makes generalizations and
assumptions such as the one above is worth my time, and I won't simply
repost Rose's comments without her permission.  Also, I've mentioned in
several other posts that DH and I have quite a good communication
relationship, and if some of you translate that into him cowering in a
corner while I throw every available breakable object at him - well, let's
just say I commend you on your imaginations.

DH, by the way, finds this all quite amusing.  He wanted me to point out to
you that our life is not quite the screaming soap opera scene you seem to
imagine it to be, but that if it entertains you to believe so, more power to
you.

Hugs and kisses,

Victoria


author: Jean

subject: Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Shawna Bowin" wrote

I held DD during her PKU test an nursed her immediately after.  I would have
done the same during her BCG vaccine, except the doctor did while I was
filling out the paperwork!  I did pick her up and nurse her straight away.
There was no question that she would be taken away for either of them.

Jean


author: Sarajoyo

text:
"Shawna Bowin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I don't know - I didn't like watching her get the shots/sticks (DH and I
were both more upset than she was when she got the Vit. K injection a few
hours after she was born), but I did manage to handle it.  Of course, with
the PKU, the nurse doing our home visit did it, and Laura not only didn't
cry, but she didn't even notice - never even blinked.  I agree; it should be
up to the mother.

BTW, why two PKU tests?


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Sarajoyo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:1urX8.15648$[email]...
after
with
that

I plan on doing that... because I'm not giving birth in a hospital unless
I'm likely to die if I don't. I'm not likely to die if I don't.

Jen


author: Kavvy

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Sarajoyo wrote in message
<1urX8.15648$[email]>...
after
with

I know in my mind that homebirths are safer etc. but I'm irrational and
scared to give birth at home so will always birth in a hospital.  I plan to
leave right afterwards with my next one too.  I stayed overnight and left
the next day with Luke but I'm not even doing that next time.  Coming home
as soon as I can walk around without loosing a gallon of blood.  I seem to
bleed a lot, but am fine so maybe it is normal?

Anyway - that sounds really wonderful!

Nikki
Mama to Hunter (3) and Luke (1)


author: Doulamom

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
five of the (Hartford area) hospitals within 30 minutes

Most hospitals in CT leave something to be desired in their mother-baby
friendliness. Best bet is usually St Mary's in Waterbury as hospitals go if
you can get there.

Post-partum is not the time you want to do battle with anyone.

I had to after #5 and it was miserable. Next time 'round I'm leaving the
hospital as soon as my midwife will release me and the pede the baby.

karen


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In my

I've had my babies in 5 different hospitals and had varying experiences
regarding co-sleeping.

#1 and #2 I didn't have in my bed quite as much as I had my dh with me more
to hold baby while I slept plus I had two difficult births and was pretty
naive too.

I remember with #3 be awakened by a nurse gasping in the dark. Turns out she
came in the room to check on Ian and he wasn't in the bassinet and I was
sound asleep. Scared her to death. I was sleeping but Ian was latched on and
we were nursing side-lying with my back to the door. She says, "Is he in bed
with you?", all panicked. I say, "yes, is that a problem?" She replies, "
No, I'll just mark it in your chart so we know that is where he usually is."

#4 The nurses pretty much expected the babies to room-in and co-sleep. Going
to the nursery was not the norm at all.

#5- "GASP!! YOU CAN'T SLEEP WITH THE BABY!!!!" THE HORROR!!!!! "Yes, I can
and I will" BUT YOU CAN' T!!!!!!!! You'll hurt her!! She has to go back in
the bassinet when she is done nursing. You can't fall asleep while nursing
her either!!!

I pretty much ended up telling this nurse to bug off and leave me alone as
politely as I could. Emma nursed for 45 minute stretches, then would doze
for a few minutes then want to nurse again. If I had tried and follow her
instructions either a) I would have gotten NO sleep or b) I would have sent
my screaming baby to the nursery where she would have been given a bottle. I
can only imagine how she could intimidate a first timer.

This hospital was lovely in L&B, I purposely was assigned the supportive of
natural birth nurses and they were great but the postpartum side?? UGH!!! If
I ever end up back there I'm leaving ASAP. Thank goodness my pede's are fine
with early discharge.

Karen


author: Charlotte M.

text:
"Banty" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

their

Oh man. Then these people are twice as thankful.

They have their lives and they're in CANADA. <toothy grin>

about
thing
insensitive to

You know it!

Charlotte


text:
"Meghan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
wrote:

Why thank you!

Jen


author: P. Tierney

subject: Re: My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Victoria Frerichs" <[email]> wrote:
to
to

    It stopped being a "soap opera" about you and your DH
right after the first post.  After that, it was about the issues
that you brought up, and ones tangental to it.  The two of
you are props in the discussion or issues, more or less.  It's been
interesting.

                                                    P. Tierney


author: just me

text:
"Jean" <[email]> wrote in message
news:cyJY8.2315$[email]...
have

The first PKU on DS was done in a doctor's office when he was two days old.
That was ok.  The following several days when nurses came to our house to do
foot sticks to continue blood tests for his increasing billirubin levels
were not ok.  One nurse in particular was absolutely inept, trying three
times between two feet before we told her to leave.  DS was admitted to the
hospital with hyperbillirubin the next day.  The technicians at the hospital
were much more experienced or just better at getting the blood out without
severely discomfiting DS.  I was present every time and the expertise levels
of all those trying to draw the blood was very clear and the home health
nurses were the pits.

-Aula


author: Shawna Bowin

text:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:34:22 GMT, "Sarajoyo"
<[email]> wrote:

Well, first of all, what we call the PKU test usually tests for many
different conditions.  From what I understand, it is best to test at 3
days (not the day of birth, as some hospitals do) and again later.  I
believe the second test is supposed to be at 1 week, but maybe it's 3
weeks.  I forget now.  Anyway, it's so you have the optimal chance of
catching everything--some of the stuff doesn't show up right away.

My Bradley teacher (and the assistant midwive at Nathan's birth) has a
daughter with PKU, so obviously, she strongly believes in the test,
which may have influenced my midwife's propensity toward doing it
twice.  But I don't believe she's the only one to do it that way.

FWIW, he took the first one much better.  As they get older, it's
harder to get the blood out, so it takes longer and involves "milking"
the leg to bring blood down to his foot.  Poor kid.

Shawna Bowin

DH Adam
DS Nathan 4/26/01
Web page:  http://www.geocities.com/sabowin/bowins.html


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
I figure you have to listen to your gut. If you feel safer in a hospital
(and I used to feel safer in a hospital...) then that is where you should
have your baby. Sometimes we have instincts, and it may well be that there's
a good reason you need to be there. I find that when women don't feel safe
at home but plan a homebirth anyway, they often end up transporting in
labor.

For me, I'm irrationally afraid of giving birth in a hospital next time. No,
make that, based on my experience both as a doula and with my daughter's
birth, I'm RATIONALLY afraid of giving birth in a hospital next time....

The first time, I felt quite safe in hospitals--they'd saved my life not too
long prior to my getting pregnant, and my associations were not very bad
with them.

But they saved my life when I was really, really sick.

When I'm pregnant, I'm not really, really sick.

If I got really really sick while pregnant, I'd go to a hospital willingly.
But labor is not an illness, and the hospital policies do much to contribute
to birth's "lack of safety".

Doctors are afraid of birth, I find. And they're right to be afraid of
birth, because the only births they know are hospital births in which normal
is so far from what is happening that they've probably never seen truly
normal. They see awful, awful things every day, and there's no easy way of
sorting out which things are awful because of the process and which things
are awful because of the interventions (and even being in a hospital is an
intervention....) Hospital births can be very scary when it comes down to
it. When a woman is not fed, is strapped to a monitor, is watched closely
for progress, or is pumped full of drugs to get her baby born on a schedule,
there are millions of things that can and do go wrong. Sometimes just being
in a hospital is enough to take a perfectly good labor and stall it so that
other interventions MUST be used to get labor going again. Some doctors
manage to trust birth in spite of their training, in spite of the
interventions which make birth more and more dangerous in the name of making
it safer. Some midwives manage to keep their trust of birth despite
practicing in a place which trusts no body to birth unaided.

With homebirth, the chances of a completely uneventful, drug-free,
blissfully ordinary birth are somewhere between 60 and 90 % depending on the
practitioner. The chances of everything coming out just fine without
transport, but including "moderately exciting" complications which require
some minimal intervention is even higher. The chance of transport to the
hospital varies from practitioner to practitioner--some midwives have
transport/section rates as low as 3-5 percent, and their stats for healthy
babies are just as good or even better than most hospitals. Some midwives
transport as many as 30%... this usually measn a difference in skill level
or more restrictive practice guidelines--some midwives must transport for a
mom to get stitches or an IV--they'll end up transporting more. A midwife
who can start an IV, sew up a tear or draw blood will not have to transport
anywhere near as often. The neat thing is that most of the things that ever
go wrong with birth when drugs are not involved happen relatively slowly.
Even abruption is more likely in a hospital than at home, because of drugs
like pitocin and cytotec.

Yes, it is possible to have a healthy and drug-free hospital birth. Yes, it
is possible for things to go wrong in homebirth. But when you look at the
statistics, women don't die more when births happen at home. Babies don't
die more just because homebirth midwives can't perform a cesarean on the
spot.... yes, some babies who would die at home won't die in the hospital,
but just as often, babies who die in the hospital wouldn't have died at home
(and no, there's not usually a way to tell which baby deaths could have been
prevented in a different environment.) For every baby who dies because it
takes 30 minutes to get to the surgery from home, there is one in the
hospital who dies because his mother is given cytotec after having a
previous uterine surgery. Some babies will die no matter where they are
born. But at home, far fewer women experience medical interventions, even
when you count those who transport during labor to the hospital. Women
report liking the experience more. And physiologically, it makes complete
sense.

Birth is reliant on hormones. Hormone production depends strongly on the
feelings of the mother. Many mothers, in the hospital, have many adrenaline
surges--these tend to knock labor out early on. At home, things are calmer
and fewer things disrupt the flow of hormones. In the hospital, drugs are
given to counteract this effect, but as pit is given in the blood and not
secreted in the brain, it does not help with endorphins to the same degree.

This dependence on hormones means that for a mother afraid of giving birth
at home, thoughts of giving birth at home may cause a rush of
adrenaline---which will stall labor. If you feel more confident and secure
about giving birth in the hospital, then that's the place you should be--but
doing everything you can to protect yourself from the hospital "routines"
which may benefit the hospital but will not benefit you. A doula can help...
a midwife practicing in the hospital can help a lot. Having the
understanding, support and advocacy of your spouse can be great. In my case,
I had my lion of a mother with me, and she was a great buffer.

There are three great determanents in satisfaction with the birth process:
1. How safe and secure the mother feels
2. How well the people who help her respond to her needs, requests, etc.
3. How much a part of the decision-making process she feels.

For me, that means home, midwife who is also a friend, and close to total
control over my environment within the limits of practicality.

For you, that may mean hospital with support people and careful research to
find a caregiver and staff who will support your needs flexibly.

And we're neither of us wrong.
Jen
"Kavvy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:yZAX8.332$[email]...
warm
that
to


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Doulamom" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
though
<snip>

lol! What *is* it with some nurses? I've known lots of great nurses, but I
had a couple of doozies with my daughter. First there was the one in the
birth room. "You, you, you CAN'T give her a bath!"

Me: "Whyever not? There's a sink right there!"

Her: "But, but, but, she'll DROWN! The cord has been cut!"

Me: "It's clamped... it's not like I'm going to stick her face under the
water."

Her: "You're not????"

Me: <jaw hits the floor> "Uh, no. Her dad will support her head above the
water and let her body float, so she can breath."

Her: "Oh. I thought you were going to submerge her."

Someone needs to read their Leboyer. She actually thought I was going to
drown my kid. They did let us do the Leboyer bath in the sink after all.

sent
I

I loved the nurse who came in to check my c-section incision. After my
VAGINAL birth.

Or the one who asked me how the pain meds were working. (I hadn't even
looked in the packet of drugs they give all new moms <stool softeners,
tylenol, advil, etc.>)  I looked at her in disbelief and said, "Why on EARTH
would I do natural childbirth and then take drugs now?" She said, "For the
afterpains?"

I tried not to laugh in her face. Really.

Then there was the one who came in and woke us up about 15 minutes after
we'd FINALLY fallen asleep for the first time--because it had been 2 hours,
according to their chart, since baby had last nursed. She INSISTED I put
this sleepy baby up to my boob. Baby just puckered up and pushed her lips
out. I didn't get back to sleep for a week.

When I did have troubles with nursing (learned later it was from poor
positioning) the lactation consultant walked in, saw me with my boobs
exposed to the air with teabags on them, said, "Looks like you're doing it
right!" and walked out without ever once watching us nurse.

of
If
fine

My biggest mistake I made was staying in the hospital for a day and a half.
My mother only stayed 6 hours after the birth of my sister. I'm not
bothering going into the hospital at all next time--I think I'll do better
without being hassled all the time. Their whole logic for calling me high
risk was that I might have a clot. Well, they'd sent be home by the time I
was at my highest risk period. So by their logic, they ought to hospitalize
me for the whole darned pregnancy. Wait...hospital stays are associated with
clotting episodes... Hmmmmmmm.... I'm staying home next time if I have to do
the whole darned thing myself. It would be safer and saner. Fortunately, I
have midwife friends who will attend me on my terms, despite my so-called
risk factors. Everything the hospital normally does to birthing women tends
to make me HIGHER risk (no food, restricted ambulation, epidurals, etc.)

The hospital I was at acted like they'd never seen a normal vaginal birth
with no drugs. How women expect to have a  normal vaginal birth with no
drugs, in a hospital that thinks natural birth is weird, is beyond me. I
managed it, but only by being a royal pain in the ass and arming myself with
a birth plan, a lay midwife as doula and my mother, the lawyer. I told them
flat out that if I was going to sue about anything, it would be for
violiation of informed consent, NOT them doing things the way I asked them
to. They really did mostly leave me alone before the birth, at my behest,
but it was clearly alien to them.

Whew. And I thought I'd let all that go... <wry grin>

Jen


author: Banty

text:
In article <%30X8.53963$[email]>, "Charlotte says...

Well, then!  Shut my mouth!  What a USA provincial am I!  :*D

Yes, yes - they should be doubly grateful for having made it to Canada. :-)

Yep.

Banty


author: Diane Willcutts

subject:
Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My formerly
	perfect DH

text:
in article [email], Shawna Bowin at
[email] wrote on 7/13/02 11:34 PM:

After questioning the hospital nurse, the lactation consultant, and (for all
I know) the janitor, I discovered that the *main* reason for the first PKU
test--which is done too early to be conclusive--is that the baby is a
captive audience.  For all they know, the mom won't bring the baby in for
the follow-up test, which is done at three-week visit, when there is a
chance that the result could be accurate.

Mmmmmm. . . of course, most of what they are testing for is incredibly rare.
You might say, "But why not test, even if for something rare, if this
provides information to help you avoid something serious?"  That's fine, if
the test is accurate.  However, my understanding of the PKU anyway is that
there are many false positives.  As one doctor explained, if your child
tests positive, they are put on an extremely restrictive diet--perhaps for
no reason.  So yes, you may be preventing serious consequences, but you may
also be putting a huge and unnecessary burden on your child.

This isn't necessarily a reason not to get the test.  But it is a big reason
not to have it required by law (as it is in Connecticut).

I strongly believe that people need to be able to make *informed* decisions
for themselves.  I also wish the various bureaucracies-that-be would stop
trying to control every little thing (most of which we can't control anyway
and our attempts to do so can by themselves lead to negative consequences
too) and trust people's intuitions abut what is best for them.

Your teacher's child may have tested positive for PKU, but is there any way
to be sure that the child actually has it (without risking harm to the
child)?  Beyond reading a book that mentioned the problems with testing
(published around 1984, so there may be a more recent/better screen for
PKU), I haven't looked into this and was wondering whether anyone knew.  If
there is a conlusive PKU test, this would change my perspective (e.g., if
the initial test was just a general screen, to be followed up by something
that could provide conclusive results).

It's not just age that makes a difference.  It depends on the skill of the
person drawing the blood.

When I saw Emerson's test being done, I realized that perhaps the technician
did not want me present because she's not all that skilled at collecting
blood.  It seemed to take forever to get enough for all the various tests,
while Emerson wailed much of the time (of course).  He seemed a little
better once I put my pinky in his mouth to suck on, but I was truly ready to
scoop him away from the tech and walk out the hospital, "legally mandated
test" or no.  (Yes, yet another reason she may not have wanted me present.)
When she finally gave up (half-way done) and started to put the foot warmer
back on the *same* foot (to increase circulation to cause the baby to bleed
more easily), I suggested she try the other foot instead.  Emerson nursed in
the meantime, and when came back, we had a much easier time, done within a
few minutes.

So there was a very good reason for me to be there--to comfort Emerson and
to coach the technician (for the test that was mostly useless because E. was
only a day old).

Yes, still mad.

And please, dear newsgroup readers, please at least consider refraining from
bothering to post such trite, I mean, pithy pearls of wisdom such as, "get
some perspective" or "get over it."  I will when I'm ready.  Or not.  It's
my life.

Diane, protective mama lioness to Pandora (6/6/96) and Emerson (2/8/01)


text:
"Shawna Bowin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Oh, okay.  That makes sense.  I know it does have to be done a certain
amount of time after birth, because the baby has to have eaten enough to
make PKU show up.  Makes sense to do it twice, I suppose.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Jenrose wrote:
[snip]
[snip]

This may seem a silly question - but why did you not want to take
painkillers just because you had a natural childbirth?

I can see why you would want to avoid drugs in labour - because
of the effects on the baby - but why not afterwards?  I'm not sure
which US brand name is which painkiller, but assuming they gave you
one that does not risk harming the baby when it gets into breast
milk, why avoid them?

(If the afterpains aren't that bad, there would be no need to
have them anyway.)

FWIW, if you don't count the episiotomy, I had natural births.  But by
the time I got to my third, the afterpains were worse then my actual
labour pains.  I could see no reason not to have painkillers.

(FWIW2, my labour pains were pretty mild.  I think the best description
would be "slight discomfort".)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Reminds me of the pediatrician who asked if my son had been circumcised
AFTER he had already examined him.
This was the same guy who accused me of being a heavy smoker and causing my
sons polycythemia. Gee, could it possibly have been the documented
oligohydramios you FOOL!

On that part I'm with the nurse, as someone who practically crawls up the
back of the bed with the afterpains. Even my homebirthing friends and
relatives have a call in to their friend doc to get some Tylenol with
Codeine for the afterpains.

Here is the scenario after #5:

Midwife: Karen, your bleeding is getting pretty bad. I'd like to give you
some pit

Me (nursing baby): Only if you promise to write some Percocet in my orders

Midwife: I'll give you whatever you want, can we give the pit now?

I got the pit along with an order for methergine prn and percocet

I wish the nurses would make up their minds. They would ASK me if I needed
the methergine. I guess I'm supposed to assess if my bleeding was too heavy
etc....sure I can assess my bleeding but how the heck do they know that I
know what is bad and what isn't? So I can tell whether or not I am
hemorrhaging but am not trustworthy enough to feed my baby. HUMPH!

karen


author: Marion Baumgarten

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Jenrose <[email]> wrote:

Well, I had very string after pains with my first child and accordin to
friends, they get worse with each suceeding child since th uterus has to
work harder. They were paricularly bad while breastfeeeding the first
day. I had no medication at all with my second child. After he was born,
I told the staff that I didn't want to feel a twinge for the next 48
hours. Would Tylenol 3 be ok, they asked? Worked for me.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:48:21 -0700, "Jenrose" <[email]> wrote:

My husband thinks the best birth team for a hospital birth would be us, a
midwife, a doula, and a lawyer. :)

Women never forget!


author: Joris Cools

text:
Dear,

In Belgium, only 1 healprick is to be done when the child is about 6
or 7 days old. 2 weeks after the birth of my son Lander, my wife and I
got informed that our son (born 23/04/02) is positive for PKU. The
same day, a second healprick was done to make sure the results were
the same as for the first test.

The healprick in Belgium is obliged by law and the blood has to be
screened for several metabolic defects. When a defect is fixed, a
second test will be done with the same blood sample (to be sure for
99,9%). After this, a second healprick will be done to do a third test
for a 100% certainty.

A second way of testing is a genetic test. But as you probably might
know, there are more than 300 variations on PKU, so this makes this
test very expensive, and not suitable for mass screening.

Kind regards.
Joris, papa to Pieter (25/07/99) and Lander (23/04/02).

Diane Willcutts <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: Tine Andersen

subject: Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My formerlyperfect DH

text:
Please - what is PKU. We have a bloodtest on day 5 (not mandatory) which
tests for something like (in Danish) myxoedem, cyctic fibrosis, ??? It's not
called PKU.

Tine, Denmark


text:
in article [email], Diane Willcutts at
[email] wrote on 7/14/02 12:30 PM:

A quick search gave me a possible yes and no.  There are *way* too many
false positives with the traditional testing (one study showed 91 of 208
positive results were false), there is a better test (revealing 1 false
positive in 208--still too high for me, though), but that method is reported
to be complex and consequently expensive.  This information was at:
http://www.aacc.org/cln/profiles/99profiles/01/diag019902.htm.

Also, from the Maryland department of health, "The PKU diet may be harmful
to a child who does not have PKU."  So it's not just a matter of suffering
an inconvenience with no likely health consequences.

After reading information just on these sites, I have more questions than
answers.  If and when this is ever relevant to me again (or maybe just after
I clean up the kitchen), I'll research more.

D.


author: Marijke

text:
Dont you have the follow up urine test? In Quebec, the babies all get a
special envelope to bring home and on a certain day, you press a wet diaper
against the absorbant paper, dry it, send it off to the lab and it is tested
for follow up PKU.

Marijke

"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
all
rare.
if
may
reason
decisions
anyway
way
If
technician
to
present.)
warmer
bleed
in
was
from


author: Elana Kehoe

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Penny Gaines <[email]> wrote:

Advil is ibuprofen, Tylenol is paracetamol.

And after my c-section, they gave me morphine.  For someone who never
did drugs, I was flying high.  Whhhheeeeeeeeeee.  Patrick still cried
"lustily" and had no problems that we could tell---course, he could have
been stoned too.

E


author: Kate J

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Penny Gaines <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I agree. I really wanted a drug-free birth, and had one, but the
afterpains were a killer and I demanded relief for them. It was a
different situation entirely.

Not everyone who has a natural birth does so to prove something to
themselves - personally I just wanted to minimise complications and
side effects and was grateful for the pain meds after (and it would
have been nice to have someone offer...!)

Kate


author: Marie

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Penny Gaines" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
But by

With my second baby, the afterpains were awful, I was almost crying
everytime I nursed (I was given tylenol). I am getting so scared for when
this one is born! I'm trying to read up on herbal remedies to use that may
help.
Marie


author: Alison Tooth

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Penny Gaines wrote:

No, I was wondering too .....
Jen, do you have an antipathy to painkillers in general? I know plenty
of people do. (I don't! Only when giving birth :) )

True :)

Ugh, yeah. My 3 were natural & painkiller-free (except for the 10
minutes' worth of Entonox I used during labour #2 because I was curious
.... didn't like it) and I'm really looking forward to doing it again in
September.

But I am not looking forward to afterpains .... #1 they were fine, only
noticeable in the couple of hours after the birth. #2 they were bad when
I bfed, and I did take paracetamol (tylenol). #3 they were horrible, and
just struck at random times - I couldn't talk or anything, they were at
least as bad as labour pains - the paracetamol didn't seem to do much,
but I wasn't going to stop taking it!


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Penny Gaines" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Your episiotomy does not count against you when you say you had a natural
birth. When people refer to natural births, they are usually referring to a
spontaneous, vaginal birth, with no medical forms of pain relief.  I'm
certain there are some people who might feel that an episiotomy removes your
status as a ntural birth, but as far as most people are concerned, if you
don't use meds to either deal with pain relief or augment your labour,
having a doc or midwife perform an episiotomy is small potatoes, and not
always something you can say no to.

Charlotte


author: Jenrose

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Penny Gaines" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

That's the point.. they weren't bad. It was a first baby. And they didn't
even bother asking if I *had* afterpains that hurt!

I avoid them as much as I can in general, aside from just enough advil to
keep me functional during my period. I'd likely use them if it was really
bad, but I doubt it. I've dealt with cramps before, and if I know that
they're normal, I can usually get through it okay. With my period, it's a
bit different  because I have endo and it can make things really hellish for
no net gain. With afterpains, at least I know they're functional.

Jen


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
My point is that she should have:

a) Asked if I was having afterpains (I wasn't--first baby. I may well need
medication next time, but the afterpains were so mild after a solid month of
painful braxton hicks that they almost tickled.)
b) Asked if I'd like something for them if they were painful (which I
wouldn't have, at the time.)
c) Actually told me what was in the medication packet that was sitting
untouched and unopened on the bedside table rather than assuming I'd opened
it up and gone to town popping pills.
d) Asked if I was having trouble with my bowels rather than asking me if the
stool softener was working (wasn't taking that either, no need after castor
oil the previous day!)

What she did was basically just say, "How is the medicine working?"

Very poor patient communciation.
Jen

"Doulamom" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
my
EARTH
the
heavy


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
I had codeine for something or another while nursing my daughter. Can't
remember why at this point.

Never again.

Didn't help the pain, made me feel loggy and drugged, and made it difficult
to care for her.

She got fussy.

I'd rather cramp. Ibuprofen or nothing.
Jen

"Marion Baumgarten" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
EARTH
the


author: Linz

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Meghan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

My boyfriend is convinced that women are related to elephants!


text:
in article [email], Joris Cools at
[email] wrote on 7/19/02 7:15 AM:

This makes much more sense than testing in the first day or two, which is
typically done in CT (and probably most states, since all require the PKU).

At 6 or 7 days old, the baby is typically no longer dehydrated, and so
collecting blood at that time is likely to be much easier.

In addition, the PKU is typically much more reliable when done at a week old
than it is when done at a day old.

My understanding is that the PKU (and other tests) were done to my children
at a day old, primarily because of some bureaucratic public health concern
that babies might go completely untested if they were not tested at the
hospital (at one or two days old).  Possibly true.  But not true for me or
for many other parents who would want this information even if the test were
not legally required (provided the specific version of the test that is done
is reliable, of course).  I have little patience when the health care
"system" tries to force me into doing something that is not in my child's
best interest.  Ideally, the timing of the PKU should be left up to the
parents--letting us decide whether to test right away (more difficult and
unreliable results) or to bring the child back at 5-7 days (when the test is
more reliable and is relatively simple to do).

Thanks for the information!

D.


subject:
Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  My
	formerlyperfect DH

text:
in article UdjY8.3837$[email], Tine Andersen at
[email] wrote on 7/14/02 2:22 PM:

PKU is phenylketonuria.  It refers to an inability to digest phenylalanine;
my understanding is that this can result in mental retardation if not
treated (primarily through low-protein diet).

According to the National Institutes of Health, in the US, the PKU rate
ranges from 1 in 13,500 to 1 in 19,000 live births.

D.


author: Mandy

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Marie-

    If you find any remedies, let me know.  I didn't have any afterpains
with my 1st.   They were bad with my 2nd, so I am assuming they will be bad
this time as well.

Mandy
Mom to Matthew (04/23/99), Dallas Amanda (11/05/01), and Nicholas (EDD
11/12/02)

"Marie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ZPmX8.86453$[email]...


author: Circe

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Alison Tooth" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Just being a dittohead, but I agree. There are big advantages, IMO, in
getting through labor unmedicated--it's better for the baby, it's usually
better for the mom (keeps you mobile and clear-headed, usually), and you get
to have a really cool endorphin rush when it's all over. But I wouldn't turn
down pain killers for the afterpains (which were *horrible* after Vernon's
birth and, as Alison says, seemed to strike randomly) any more than I would
have turned down a local anesthetic before they sewed up my perineal and
labial tears! I just can't think of any advantage to getting through *those*
pains unmedicated, especially when a little ibuprofen mades things so much
easier. (And there's another thing they just don't tell you--you think all
the painful contractions are over after you deliver the placenta, only to
discover you may have some real whoppers for a few more days!)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Alison Tooth" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
The only drug that I can take for period cramps is the generic form of Advil
(Ibuprofen). I haven't checked to see if that's compatible with
breastfeeding, but as it tends to briefly anticoagulate, I doubt it would be
okay for the immediate postpartum. Tylenol isn't going to do anything
productive, so why bother or risk the damage?

Jen


author: Wendy

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In article <ztnX8.8915$[email]>,
Charlotte M. <[email]> wrote:

"Does not count against you"?! "Removes your status"?!


author: Nancy P.

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Charlotte M." <[email]> wrote in message
news:ztnX8.8915$[email]...
a
I agree with your definition of natural birth.  But I cannot even count how
many people have asked me whether I had Dana naturally, and I say no,
explaining about the pitocin and the epidural.  And they say, no, they meant
that I didn't have a cesarean.  So around here, apparently, vaginal, but
stoned to the nines = natural.  Weird, huh?

Nancy


author: Penny Gaines

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Jenrose wrote:

[snip]
[snip]

Thanks for explaining.  The first time round my afterpains were
pretty inconsequencial.  After I had my third I ended up using
the contraction-easing positions I hadn't got round to using in
labour.  (Before you get too worried, this was a no-time-to-get-
to-hospital labour, so it is relatively easy for the afterpains to
be worse.)


author: Hillary Israeli

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In <agls19$n93$[email]>,
Jenrose <[email]> wrote:

*I had codeine for something or another while nursing my daughter. Can't
*remember why at this point.
*Never again.
*Didn't help the pain, made me feel loggy and drugged, and made it difficult
*to care for her.
*She got fussy.
*I'd rather cramp. Ibuprofen or nothing.

Wow. I had such bad pain, from the afterpains at first, and then later due
to a different problem with nursing, that without the codeine I would
literally have been unable to nurse my son. Seriously. It was some of the
worst pain I'd ever felt in my life. I did notice in between nursing
sessions I felt a little dopey but before I took the codeine, I felt dopey
while nursing anyway, just from hormones, so, whatever :)

	hillary israeli vmd  http://www.hillary.net  [email]
                "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
                    newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)


author: CBI

text:
"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
old

Yes, but it is a week later and PKU is not the only test run. My state runs
about 12.

children

Clearly true. The only way to get them all is to do it in the hospital.

were
done
is

If you give the parents complete control you will miss cases and kids will
suffer. This is a violation of the kid's rights and clearly not to be
desired. Unfortunately, it infringes on the parent's rights to decide to
mandate that all kids have it done at the hospital. Someone's rights will be
violated either way. Personally, I don't think there is much of a comparison
between the two and, to me, the decision of who's rights to violate is
clear.


subject: Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  Myformerlyperfect DH

text:
"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email]...
not
phenylalanine;
Okay - I found it. It's called Fï¿½llings disease in Denmark after some
Norwedish guy.

Thanks.
Tine


author: Sarajoyo

text:
"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
not
phenylalanine;
The PKU test we have here in the US tests for about 50 other similar
metabolic disorders, not just PKU - PKU is just the most common one, but
there's also Maple Sugar Urine Disease (or whatever it's called) and others.


author: Diane Willcutts

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
in article [email], Mandy at
[email] wrote on 7/11/02 6:36 PM:

If I recall correctly, homeopathic arnica is often used for
childbirth-related pain (and apparently for recovering from plastic surgery,
according to one report from someone on a talk show--somehow plastic surgery
and homeopathy seem an incongruous combination, but whatever).

I'm not a professional, but my guess would be to use a 200c dosage if you
can track it down.  30c would be second best.  (I don't mind making
recommendations, since there are no side effects with homeopathic remedies.)

If I think of it, I'll ask my naturopath about this the next time I speak
with her.

D.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
get
turn
would
*those*

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who didn't like the afterpains.

I made it through 10 hours of back labor that started with ctx coming every
2-3 minutes, 1.5 hours of pushing, delivering a pretty big baby with a
pretty big head, posterior, and an in-depth exam on my cervix by an OB,
without considering medication.

And then I felt the afterpains and whined like a baby.

I am so not looking forward to them the next time.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
in article o8oX8.93860$[email], Circe
at [email] wrote on 7/11/02 7:02 PM:

I definitely agree.  I didn't intend to go without medication through labor
and delivery (Baby No. 2), but ended up delivering within minutes of
arriving at the hospital.

It was funny that I had actually *planned* to use medication this
time--nubain before 5 cm, epidural after 5 cm, etc.  (Because I was *so*
anxious about the pain--I remembered it from last time--and it eventually
occurred to me that I wasn't sure exactly what I was trying to prove by
planning to go without anesthesia.)

What a surprise to realize how much I prefer unmedicated birth.  Yes, it's
great for the baby, but it was really much better for me too.  (I posted the
story about a year ago, so I'll skip the repeat.  But the overall experience
was--as we used to say in my home state of Massachusetts--wicked cool!)

Something I didn't realize before. . . apparently, there is a video
(according to a doula friend of mine) showing newborns whose moms were
medicated and unmedicated during labor.  In the video, each baby is placed
on the mom's tummy, so the baby can climb up and latch on for the first time
themselves.  Apparently, the unmedicated babies were very strong and could
do this.  But the medicated-birth babies tended to just flop around.  (I
haven't seen this myself, though; so I'm not sure about the details of what
medications were used, how many babies were recorded, etc.)

Of course, to medicate or not has to be an individual decision.  I know I
was way too stressed by my third trimester last time to even consider
planning to be med-free during labor and delivery.  I have more confidence
now that I've been through it, just realizing that the second (accidentally)
unmedicated birth felt better overall.

And afterwards?  That time, I went straight for the Darvoset.  Now I would
at least try homeopathy first.  OTOH, I would most likely not be willing to
lose a minute of sleep just to avoid medication; however, given my success
rate with homeopathy (when prescribed by someone who knows what they are
doing, anyway--the labels on the bottles are mostly useless), I probably
wouldn't need to take anything stronger.

D.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Circe" <[email]> wrote in message
news:o8oX8.93860$[email]...
even
softeners,
on
get
turn
would
*those*

First baby. Only mild afterpains. And they didn't even bother to *ask*... I
doubt the nurse even bothered to notice parity on my chart.

Jen


author: Kavvy

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Jenrose wrote in message ...
even
softeners,
on
Advil
be

I didn't really have afterpains with #1 and barely there for #2 but I was
given Ibuprofen (800mg I believe - doc wrote a script) because my episiotomy
hurt so bad.  With #2 I gobbled up the tylenol and ibuprofen (and stool
softener) for the first two days just to ward off any ugly pain, Lol.  Not
that you should have.  I was just sharing that I think ibuprofen is safe for
breastfeeding mom's post-partum.

Nikki
Mama to Hunter (3) and Luke (1)


author: Kandace Wright

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Wendy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3d2e080b$0$37690$[email]...
a
your

I think you are reading too much into it.  I get what Charlotte was saying.

Is it me or are people highly sensitive lately? :)


author: Marion Baumgarten

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Nancy P. <[email]> wrote:

hey about a an unmedicated Cesearean? Now that WOULD be natural. Course,
you wouldn't be here to post about it....


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Nancy P." <[email]> wrote in message
news:L9pX8.37124$[email]...
natural
to
how
meant

Get this....some labor nurse actually argued with me that I did have natural
childbirth despite augmented labor because I had no epidural or epistomy.
Um, no natural is nature's way.  Pitocen and water breaking by artificial
means is not natural.  Trust me, I know.  There is nothing particularly
natural feeling about pitocen.


author: Leslie

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Charlotte said:

. When people refer to natural births, they are usually referring to
And Nancy added:

I think there are a couple of different things going on here.  One is that
there are so many c-sections, a VERY unnatural way to give birth, that even
medicated vaginal births seem natural by comparison.  At least, they are MORE
natural than c-sections.  Another may be a reluctance to say "vaginal" to
anyone you may happen to be talking to!

For example, I had my 4th baby VBA3C, if quite unnaturally (pit augmentation,
IV antibiotics, epidural, lying down labor, not what I had planned at ALL).  I
sent an update to my college newsletter mentioning that due to William's size
and the fact that he was born vaginally we were in the news all over the
country.  What they printed was "due to his size and his unusual delivery"
making it sound like he came out my nose or something.  I protested and they
reprinted saying he was delivered naturally.  I don't like saying naturally
because I don't want to imply that I went intervention/medication free, but I
understand why some use the term in that way.

Leslie


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Hillary Israeli" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
difficult

Codeine gets me seriously stoned--but then again, I get a buzz from half a
beer, so it doesn't usually take much.

Jen


text:
in article ahifu0$mat$[email], CBI at [email]
wrote on 7/22/02 10:46 PM:

And the natural question would be, are any of those 12 tests conclusive at
24 hours of age?  And if so, does a positive result for this test require
immediate action?  And if so, is this action likely to harm a healthy child?
And if so, what is the rate of false positives?  (I.e., by testing at one
day old, how likely are we to end up harming a *healthy* child who receives
a false positive result?)  Etc.

After reading a study that showed the false positive rate for a common PKU
test approached *50%* when done at under 24 hours old, I became very
concerned about this.  The extremely-low-protein PKU diet *would* be harmful
to a baby without PKU.  This is a concern.

Overall, it seems you are assuming that at least one of those 12 tests is
accurate and useful when done at one or two days old.  (And even if true,
why not just do the tests that are needed then and not the others?)

I started asking questions about reliability and utility of the newborn
screening partly because the process was *not* simple and painless for
Emerson (despite what was described to me in advance by my midwife) and
because the hospital staff told me they wanted E. to be retested later.
(I.e., why not wait for a positive result before deciding to retest?)

I was then told that the retest was needed because the initial testing was
not accurate.  Um, OK, so why are we doing the tests now rather than just
doing them later?  I was never given any information that made sense, and
when I finally asked, "Are we doing this now primarily because the baby is a
captive audience," everyone I asked at the hospital said something along the
lines of "well, pretty much, yes."

Not clearly true for *my* children.  I would (and many parents would) have
the tests done when the tests were likely to be effective.  Why spend more
than a 1/2 hour and four or five sticks trying to squeeze blood out of a
screaming baby's foot during their first 24 hours of life?  Especially when
I am told to retest later because the first screen is inaccurate.

I am an intellligent person; someone chanting "just do it because I said so"
isn't likely to reassure me.  Instead, direct me to the source of
information.  If it is so obvious that a procedure should be done a certain
way, then once I have the information, I should be very likely to come to
that same conclusion.  Right?

Of course, if you give the state control, you end up with false positives
and kids being put on unnecessarily extreme diets that are harmful to them.

To be fair, some public health departments do recommend that the diet wait
until another test is conducted, but that recommendation varies (some say to
begin the diet as soon as possible) and compliance with the "wait"
instruction also varies.  So healthy kids do suffer.

How is postponing my child's test for a few days to a time when it is more
likely to be effective (not to mention is also less likely to be so painful)
considered a "violation of the kid's rights?"

Wow, you view this as my child's rights *versus* my rights?  I.e., you think
that my wanting to make the best possible choice for my individual child
means that I am putting my own "rights" above my child's right to optimal
health?  You mean, like if I wanted to have the right to smoke around my
child (oh wait, I can do that) or hit my child (oh wait, I have that right
too) or feed my child a diet of saturated fats and chemicals a la McDonalds
and Lunchables (yep, have that right too), etc.?

Of course, the opposite is true.  If anything, I want the right to make my
own decision in order to pursue what is in my *child's* best interest.
(Seriously, I hated getting into conflicts with the hospital staff, and I
mostly did not subject myself to this unless I felt it was in my child's
best interest.)

Even at its best, public health policy seems to be designed to achieve good
results for the greatest number of children--not optimal results for each
individual child.

In wanting to make my own decisions about my child, I'm not pursuing my own
"rights" against my child's "rights."  If anything, I want the ability to
pursue my child's rights against those of the state.

D.


subject:
Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  Myformerlyperfect
	DH

text:
in article wioY8.13319$[email], Sarajoyo
at [email] wrote on 7/14/02 8:02 PM:

????  This probably varies from state to state.  When Emerson was born
(2001), in Connecticut, when blood was collected for the PKU, additional
blood was also collected for seven additional tests.  (I can't remember them
all--sickle cell disease was one other.)  I can only imagine how long they
would have been collecting blood if they needed to do 50 different tests.

D.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Oh, they get so much worse, especially the first time that second child has a
good nursing session - ouch!  I didn't take any pain meds for afterpains until
then, and boy did I ask for them in a hurry after that!

Amanda
mom to Elijah (10/9/99) and Leah (6/17/02)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Diane Willcutts wrote:

[snip]
[snip]

I remember one of mine, when less then 20 minutes old, bobbing
her way up to the source of the milk.  I'd read about it,
and I thought it was so cool.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
in article [email], Diane Willcutts at
[email] wrote on 7/11/02 8:18 PM:

Ah ha!  Didn't find the video but did find a reference to the study.
Article (with citation) is at
http://www.parentsplace.com/expert/birthguru/articles/0,10335,243385_406529,
00.html.

D.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kavvy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:YTAX8.328$[email]...
episiotomy
for
Ibuprofen is completely compatible with breastfeeding. In fact, I believe
it's considered better for lactating moms than acetominophen (the reverse is
true in pregnancy).


author: Meghan

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:08:24 GMT, "Kandace Wright"
<me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote:

What?  How dare you say that!


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
In article <IdoX8.322495$[email]>,
Kandace Wright <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote:

I get what she's saying too. I was pointing out on what *else* she was
saying, possibly without even intending to.

Well, to me, that sort of language is the *reason* people are sensitive.
If you have to worry about your "status" when giving birth and what
people are going to "count against you" - wouldn't you feel sensitive?


author: Charlotte M.

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message
news:IdoX8.322495$[email]...

saying.

<rolls eyes>

Cross-posting.

Charlotte


author: Alpha

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Marion says:

Just briefly dropping in on this thread to raise my hand.  My cesarean was
partially unmedicated, and I lived to tell the tale.  :-)

-- Alpha
mom to Eamon, 3/20/01

http://www.geocities.com/mom2eamon/index.html
[email]


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Marion Baumgarten" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
natural
to
how
meant
Oh, Meghan. . . ?  Sophie?  Alpha?


author: Doulamom

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
in article [email], Marion Baumgarten
at [email] wrote on 7/12/02 10:05 AM:

Why wouldn't she be here to post about it. More women than you think go
through unmedicated C-sections, most because anesthesiologists don't listen
to them. I do know of one woman who chose to go through an unmedicated
C-section. Baby was in severe distress, small hospital, no anesthesiologist
on-call-baby would be gone before he got there, allergic to narcotics.

karen


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:05:54 -0500, [email] (Marion
Baumgarten) wrote:

You'd be surprised how many women that's happened to, actually - not totally
unmedicated, but undermedicated.  It's pretty awful.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
<For whatever reason, I'm, as usual, missing posts. I'm piggy-backing>

"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message
news:EgpX8.323451$[email]...

I've heard that definition before and it drives me buggy, which is why I
defined it in my post.

natural

Agreed.

Charlotte


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message
news:EgpX8.323451$[email]...

Whew!  I am glad to hear that, as I'm more afraid of labor now (for my
hypothetical 2nd child) than I was before.  I really want to avoid
induction.

Nancy


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Leslie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
augmentation,
ALL).  I
size

So how big was he?

Nancy


author: Chookie

text:
In article <[email]>,
 Diane Willcutts <[email]> wrote:

One imagines that, in the case of a false positive, the diet would be for a
very short period of time -- if at all -- while confirmatory testing was done.

Expense, of course, plus the difficulty of getting the child retested once it
is out of the hospital.

It seems from your earlier description that this was due to incompetence of
hopital staff, not the test being based on faulty premises.  I am surprised
that your mw claimed the Guthrie test would be painless.  How can being jabbed
with a needle be painless??

Well, of course.  Public health policy deals with populations, not
individuals, which necessarily means the former.  How much money will your
society throw at public health -- enough to achieve the latter?

Lemme guess.  You're American?


text:
"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Yes.

Yes.

Depends on a lot of things.

receives

Very low.

harmful

Thsi is just not so. If the screen is positive the child will be placed on a
low phenylalanine diet, not low protein, for a short time while they do
further studies, including the repeat test, to determine the real danger.
Harm tot he child has not been shown fromt his diet, even in kids with LKU
who stay on it for years.

Yes, I do. Are you saying they are not?

a
the

Are you saying this is not a valid reason? If so, then how do you plan to
predict perfectly which parents will go for the one week test? If you can't,
then are you saying that letting a few parents exersize this choice to delay
the test is worth the missed or delayed PKU cases, thyroid diseases (do you
know where the word cretin comes from?), and other endocrine abnormalities?
Other than an additional heel stick you have not told us exactly what the
benefit that outweighs the risk of missed or delayed cases is.

concern

How could any outside observer predict this? Describe a system that lets
parents opt out and does not result in missed or delayed cases.

Good, then we agree. Do it at birth.

First of all, I have never seen it take more than a few minutes, usually
under one. If the test is done incompetantly the outcome will be suboptimal.
Even givent is was this horrible experience with an incompetant phlebomist
who didn't know when to ask for help worse than the diseases screened?

Only for some of the tests.

so"
certain

Yes, but looking that information up is your responsibility. It is not the
fault of the hospital if you didn't look it up before hand.

BTW- what tests do they do in your state?

will
them.

Exactly what diet do you think they prescribe if the screen is positive and
what harm to do think is how likely?

painful)

I would say that having the kid grow up retarded from a preventable cause is
a violation fo the kid's rights.

will be

Yes.

No.

McDonalds

No, not at all.

good

Yes, that is why they call it public health. Do you have a better idea?


subject: Re: PKU was Re: Taking baby away was Re: VENT:  MyformerlyperfectDH

text:
"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
at
which
It's
others.
them
OK, at least in PA that's what it tests for, or so we were told anyway.  It
did take a while - the nurse had to fill 4 circles on a paper.

Hint for making it faster and easier: run a disposable diaper under hot
water or warm it in the microwave and apply it to the baby's heel for a bit
before drawing the blood.


author: Aimee

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
-
"AGreen1209" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
has a
until

Yep... with Amber I hardly noticed them... With Aidan, they were pret*t*y
bad.  Once you get past them though, you pretty much forget about them.  The
wonderhood of babies... they make you forget all the pain!

Aimee
Breastfeeding Advocate, and lucky to be a SAHM to Amber-Ravelle born
9/18/98, and Aidan Hunter born 4/28/02
So proud of my breastfed babies!

Pictures of my babies -
http://hometown.aol.com/auburnmist1/myhomepage/index.html
Aidan Hunter's very own webpage -
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aidanhunter
Aimee Hood Photography - http://www.aimeehoodphotography.com


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"AGreen1209" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
has a
until
So I've heard.  I did find that if I nursed the baby frequently they weren't
as bad as if she had gone several hours though.


author: Jenrose

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Circe" <[email]> wrote in message
news:s4CX8.23806$[email]...
would
was
Not
is

Love your tag line... sounds like Ibuprofen will be fine next time *if I
need it*....
Jen


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Meghan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

That's it, I'm leaving!

Time to go make my goodbye post.


author: toto

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On 11 Jul 2002 23:37:14 GMT, [email] (Wendy)
wrote:

Here I have to agree.  When I gave birth, there was a great deal of
difficulty within the *natural childbirth* movement in terms of
those who condemned anyone who took any medication at all.
It was as if there was some *badge of honor* you were supposed to
earn.  While I didn't *want* anything and while I was lucky to have
easy labors, I didn't feel it was productive to tell others that
they should choose what I chose if they had a lower tolerance for
pain as long as they were fully informed about the risks and
benefits of any medications they took.

Fanaticism about any aspect of childbirth and child rearing usually
makes the person you are trying to help defensive about her own
choices and that is not a good thing, imo.

I do know that my dil is probably going to choose to have an
epidural and I won't condemn that since I know she has a very
low tolerance for pain.  She will do the best she can, but that
doesn't mean she will avoid it necessarily.

Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Wendy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3d2e16a9$0$79563$[email]...
saying.

I don't think (and I'm inferring here) that she meant that not having
natural childbirth is worth less.  In medical terms/insurance terms they
refer to childbirth by natural, med free, etc.  I took the doesn't count
against you as just in terms of not being classified as natural birth.

This is coming from a women who has yet to have a natural childbirth by the
general standards, :). I've been induced 3 times, epidural the first two
times.  I hope to someday be promoted to status of natural childbirth,
*grin*.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:21:05 -0400, Doulamom <[email]> wrote:

*raising hand*

Let me tell you, when you're telling someone you can feel them cutting you and
they don't stop it really sucks.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:44:41 GMT, "Nancy P." <[email]> wrote:

It's true - I've had a spontaneous labor and an induced labor and the
spontaneous labor, hard as it was, was *much* easier (not to mention not
turning into a c-section like the induction did!).


author: Circe

subject: Induced vs. Spontaneous Labor (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH)

text:
"Nancy P." <[email]> wrote in message
news:ZDpX8.91205$[email]...
I was induced with my first and had an epidural (which I now realize I
probably didn't actually get until I was already in transition, which
explains why it screwed up my ability to push so badly). My second labor was
completely spontaneous and almost completely unmedicated (I had a local when
she was crowning because I was tearing; since you feel the injection less at
crowning, the OB administered it then rather than waiting until she was
sewing it up later). My third labor was induced by AROM only and was totally
unmedicated (didn't get my locals until after it was over).


text:
in article [email],
Chookie at [email] wrote on 7/24/02 8:31 AM:

Ha.  Ha.

:)

Rereading some of these posts, I plead temporary insanity, if nothing else.
I clearly have issues with people insisting I do what they say because They
Know Best even though the information doesn't back them up.  OTOH, the
newborn screens are *not* the main area of concern for me.  Just a
distraction, I guess.

D.


text:
CBI,

Given the dearth of information contained in your replies, it seems you
didn't understand my primary concern--my not being provided with information
about efficacy/utility of tests that are mandated for my child.

Although not complete, the information I've stated in my posts does have
sources, which I'm including below.

in article ahklss$ltb$[email], CBI at [email]
wrote on 7/23/02 6:37 PM:

If you're talking about the PKU, "very low" is not at all consistent with
what I found.

McCabe ERB, McCabe L, Mosher GA, Allen RJ, Berman JL. Newborn screening for
phenylketonuriaï¿½predictive validity as a function of age. Pediatrics
1983;72:390-398

Pass KA. Introduction and conference overview. Pass K Levy H eds. Early
hospital discharge: impact on newborn screening. Council of Regional
Networks for Genetics Services; March 31, 1995; Washington 1995:8-22 Emory
University School of Medicine Atlanta, GA

This is not entirely consistent with the information I found.

The following article made reference to a low-protein diet (which made sense
to me, since phenylalanine is found in most proteins--e.g., those in meat,
eggs, dairy, nuts, seeds, poultry, etc.):

National Institutes of Health Consensus Development, (2001). National
Institutes of Health Consensus Development Conference Statement:
Phenylketonuria: Screening and Management, October 16-18, 2000. Pediatrics
108: 972-982

As you reference, there are also laboratory-produced products available that
contain protein but not phenylalanine.  It isn't clear that all people with
PKU have access to this special formula, though, which is reported to be
very expensive.

Note that the PKU diet is very restrictive and is recommended for life--and
yes, I am hoping that the confirmation tests commonly used for PKU are (OK,
close to) 100% accurate.

Regarding my statement that the PKU diet can be harmful, my understanding is
that phenylalanine is essential for growth and that too little phenylalanine
is harmful for "normal" children.  (I'm sure there are better sources, but
the easiest for me to find right now is Seppa, N. (1999).  Enzyme disables
excess amino acid.  Science News 155 (11): 164.)  Also, various state health
departments (Maryland is the one I remember specifically) stated that the
PKU diet should not be started until after the initial positive test is
confirmed because (they said) it was harmful to children who do not have
PKU.  (Conversely, I recall the Yale-New Haven site said the PKU diet should
begin as soon as a positive result is found.)


author: Mary S.

text:
Sarajoyo wrote:

We had six circles, because California is doing a test-run of a free
program to screen for a couple hundred (I think) genetic abnormalities
and diseases, to see if it's cost-effective for the state to cover and
catch them in all infants.

Mary S.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message
news:eToX8.29021$Jp.54888@rwcrnsc53...

the

Sorry, Kandee. If you have a natural birth, it will count against you and
you will lose your status as an interventional birther.

Charlotte
What is this handbasket and where am I going?


subject: Re: Induced vs. Spontaneous Labor (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH)

text:
Circe wrote in message ...
was
when
at
totally

My first was spontaneous.  I had one shot of stadol at about 7cm IIRC.  My
second was induced with the gel and AROM (no pitocin) and no pain meds until
I had a local for the stitches.  The second induced labor was by far the
better experience although I believe that is just because it was my second.
I was super stressed about the induction.  All I could think of was 'if
induced labors are harder then natural ones, I'm in big trouble', Lol.  I
was very pleasantly surprised!

Nikki
Mama to Hunter (3) and Luke (1)


author: Nancy P.

subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Leslie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Pinning a medal on your chest.

Yikes.  That's about what Dana weighed last week at her 4 month check up.

Nancy


author: CBI

text:
"Diane Willcutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

They

I think any sane person would.

In this case I think that the information does back it up. That still
doesn't make being told what to do any more palatable. The point is not how
enjoyable it is but whether the increased choice is worth the costs.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Charlotte M." <[email]> wrote in message
news:J7pX8.12650$[email]...

Great.  This just figures.  I'm really going to write a "I'm leaving
post..." now.


author: Rose Kish

subject:
Re: Induced vs. Spontaneous Labor (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect
 DH)

text:
Kavvy wrote:

I had one shot of Stadol as well, shortly after the Pitocyn went into
effect (I didn't like the pitocyn, I went from calm to freaking within
the hour, and the Stadol seemed way too much for me, like I would pass
out and become conscious again long enough to push). Did the Stadol
affect how sleepy/lethargic your baby was? My labor took just under 3
hours, and when my baby came out, he was very sleepy and had no latch
from the very start. I keep thinking the Stadol had something to do with
my baby being so sleepy.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Nancy P." wrote:

Me too.  I was playing with Sproutkin on my tummy this afternoon and
hurt my brain (and my internal organs, in sympathy) trying to imagine
her back inside.  And Leslie's birth was a VBAC!  Holy moly.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Thanks, Nancy.  I AM pretty proud of myself. :-)

My first baby (8 lbs 14 oz at birth) didn't hit  that weight until six months.

Leslie


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Kandace Wright" <me@kandace_nospamme_wright.com> wrote in message
news:GdpX8.323428$[email]...

Yeah, yeah. Just don't forget to tell everyone about how unsupportive those
howling group of breastfeeding nazis were.

Charlotte


subject: Re: Induced vs. Spontaneous Labor (was Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect  DH)

text:
-
"Rose Kish" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I had Stadol... luuuuved that stuff! Then had to have epidural for
c-section.  Aidan came out with a very strong suck reflex, even in his
sleep.  I just think it depends on the baby.  Just like all drugs affect us
differently, I'm sure they affect babies differently.

Aimee


author: Kavvy

text:
Rose Kish wrote in message

Did the Stadol

Hunter was very sleepy and lethargic.  The Stadol sure may have contributed
but I don't think it wasn't the only factor.  I had the stadol about 6 hours
before he was born.  I pushed for 3hrs 45 min and the nurse told me that was
considered a 'traumatic' birth for the baby and that babies are often sleepy
after such births.  I thought that was a weird word since he was fine and
was never in any distress.  He then got jaundiced and so was pretty hard to
wake up for a week.  AFAIK his latch was fine, it was just hard to keep him
awake long enough to actually suckle.  My milk came in on the 5th day and at
that point he nursed very well although I used a lot of tricks to keep him
awake.  He was still a tiny bit yellow at his first check up but no one was
overly concerned about it.  Luke was very alert and nursed well from the get
go.  I had no Stadol with him and only pushed about 8 minutes.  I thought
the Stadol was fabulous btw, Lol.

Nikki
Mama to Hunter (3) and Luke (1)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:25:51 -0700, "Mary S." <[email]> wrote:

Not just a VBAC!  A VBA3C!  Even *more* extraordinary!  She's my hero. :)


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
"Leslie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
You know, we always talk about the birth when we hear of large babies, but
now I'm thinking of what it must have been like carrying a baby that size.
I had so many physical discomforts, I can't even imagine what it would be
like with a baby almost double the size of Dana.  You deserve 2 medals!

Nancy


text:
"Kavvy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:tzDX8.577$[email]...
contributed
hours

FWIW, I had two doses of Stadol during my first labor (the induced one)
followed by an epidural. The last Stadol dose was probably delivered about 3
hours before Julian was born. I can safely say that he was the
*unsleepiest*, most *unlethargic* baby of the three, so the drugs clearly
didn't have any noticeable effect on him (though perhaps if I hadn't had
them, he would have slept even *less* in the first week than he did
anyway--scary thought <g>!).

The Stadol was okay for me--it definitely helped me to relax between
contractions because I just didn't care as much about them--but if I had it
to do all over again (assuming all the same factors, from the induction to
my lack of knowledge about how to cope with unmedicated labor), I'd probably
go straight to the epidural, which took away the pain completely *and* had
the advantage of leaving me clear-headed. I can't imagine having got into
the pushing stage while still under the influence of Stadol: I would have
been way too groggy! I also think that because the epidural was administered
only an hour before I was fully dilated, it didn't really wear off enough by
the time I reached the pushing stage, so if I'd had it earlier, I suspect
I'd have had an easier time pushing and maybe have gotten away without the
vacuum extraction and episiotomy.


text:
Kavvy wrote:

You're bringing up things I have not been too sure about, mainly due to
ignorance with a firstborn... I worked on his latching but never thought
to start expressing earlier. When your BM came in on the 5th day, what
if any did the baby get before then? Did your ds get EBM or was he ok
without? I want to be more prepared for my second child. Thanks for
helping out here.

8 minutes?! WOW.


subject: Re: VENT:  My formerly perfect DH

text:
Thanks again!  I always have enormous babies, so I don't know anything
different, but I was pretty uncomfortable at the end.  And the constant
comments from about four months on:  are you sure you aren't having twins?  You
look like you're due any day?  How can you walk?  got irritating.

Leslie


author: Steve Olson

subject: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
MAMsters and fake militiamen believe with all their hearts that
journalists are hopelessly corrupt tools of the Democrats. But the
kind of news THEY pass on when they have an audience almost makes you
long for the 'liberal media' they are always bitching about; stuff
like:

A. Clinton is about to declare martial law
B. The country will collapse from Y2K
C. The NWO will confiscate out guns any day now
D. Foreigners are hiding in the National Parks

What was your favorite dire prediction on MAM? Don't be afraid the
aliens are going to come and get you, put it down here! If you read
any alien warning on MAM, it's most likely wrong anyway.

S. Olson


author: Joseph Pothier

subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
My favorite dire predictions were:

A. The United Nations was taking over the national parks under the World
Heritage Sites treaty
B. The Chinese were going to invade the US via a cargo ship unloading
facility they purchased in [I think] Los Angeles
C. Clinton was going to use Hong Kong police to size all the guns in
America
D. the government can control the weather with HAARP
E. Presidential Directive No. 25 placed the US military under UN command
F. the training of German Air Force pilots in Arizona was a New World
Order plot to take over the US
G  the US government was going to put all Patriots in concentration
camps
F. and, the Clinton administration was training the Russian Army at the
Camp Grayling Air Force Base in Michigan to establish a dictatorship [my
personal favorite, the Michigan Militia even went so far as to plan an
attack on Camp Grayling]
G. If I think of any more I'll post

Yours,

JP

Steve Olson wrote:


author: PGISSource

subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
[email]  (Steve Olson) blathered in an attempt to incite the hate
that he and his rightwing brethren so desire:

That the "militias" were going to engage in wholesale wackiness as part of
their Y2K fears. In fact, none of that ever materialized. They proved
themselves to generally just be our neighbors with albeit rather odd ideas at
times. A fact which I know annoyed you rightwing freaks on the conservative
fringes no end.

BTW, Olson. I hear that your beloved "Patriot Act" might not get renewed. You
could end up not getting that fascist state you want so badly. Bet that bothers
you too, doesn't it?

Mr. Wizard


author: Gray Shockley

subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:35:00 -0500, Steve Olson wrote
(in message <[email]>):

Probably Clinton's third term as President.

I always thought that one was "cute".

Gray


subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:10:25 -0500, Joseph Pothier wrote
(in message <[email]>):

The conquering troopettes are hiding in the National Forests (for about five
years now - I would love to have the catering and Port-a-Potty concessions in
those areas).

Gray


subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
[email] (PGISSource) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Congrats, Pig. You managed to respond, understand without having to
have it explained to you twice, leave Pothier out if it and keep it
down to a couple of short paragraphs. This must be some kind of record
for you.

You still have that weird thing about me and the Patriot Act going,
though, but keep trying. Three out if four ain't bad.

S. Olson


subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
Gray Shockley <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I think it was Stewart Millen who said it was either that or the
'Clinton wlll declare Martial Law' prophecy  that was the champion of
all dire MAM predictions.

S. Olson


subject: Re: Best MAM Dire Prediction

text:
[email] (Steve Olson) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Patriot Act 1 and the new Patriot act 2 pretty much override your rights....


author: Joe

subject: better to shovel snow all at once or little at a time?

text:
I'm getting a foot of snow tonight, it's already up to 5". Is it
better to wait until it's done or shovel now and tomorrow morning?


author: Bert Hyman

subject: Re: better to shovel snow all at once or little at a time?

text:
[email] (Joe) wrote in
news:[email]:

If you're doing it by hand, you can still do it a little at a time
even if you wait 'til it stops, especially if you have the whole
weekend.

If, like me, you have a snow thrower which can't eat more than 6" of
snow at a time, you'd best get out there now.


text:
On Mar 16, 3:29 pm, Bert Hyman <[email]> wrote:

nope, just a shovel and my back, whichever breaks first.


text:
been living in apartments in NYC, this is my first house and it's been
a pretty dry winter. I just shoveled the whole driveway. It was a
cinch with fresh snow. By the time I was at the end of the driveway
there was already a 1/2" at the garage.

On Mar 16, 5:30 pm, Mike <[email]> wrote:


author: Rick Blaine

text:
"Joe" <[email]> wrote:

I find making multiple clearing passes over time easier as I can do the entire
width or length of a drive without lifting the shovel.


text:
On Mar 16, 4:26 pm, "Joe" <[email]> wrote:

Well it does depend on how much you have to shovel.

I live in the Philadelphia area in a house that doesn't have too much
sidewalk so I can generally do it all at one.  But with so much snow
you could do a shovel and then spread some rock salt and that will
make it easier when you make another run of the shoveling.

I don't know about where you live but here we have this ordinance that
says that the sidewalks have to be shoveled.

Martin
A Homeowner's Blog
http://ahomeowner.blogspot.com


author: Todd H.

text:
"Joe" <[email]> writes:

I'd get out there and enjoy the fun now because 12" of snow is hella
heavy on the shovel, and you never know when crap's gonna freeze.
I've never regretted staying on top of a heavy snowfall, but have
often regretted leaving it go till it was all done.


author: Mike

text:
"Joe" <[email]> wrote:

Better tell the delivery truck to send it 5" per load...

So my question is.....where have you been living for the last n
winters, or have you had a service to shovel your snow?


author: v

text:
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:06:50 -0600, someone wrote:

Yup, if you can push a small depth, DO IT.  Easier than LIFTING every
pound of snow that fell.  Damn how could that much weight have just
been floating around in the air.

Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.


author: Banty

text:
In article <[email]>, Todd H. says...

I have.  If the snow turns to sleet (or worse) freezing rain, you'll get a nice
slick (for fzra) or very sticky (for sleet) layer on your walk/driveway you
can't remove.  While if you had waited, you could have shovelled off the top
layer with all that on it, then shovel the rest.  Two scoops of the shovel for
each little shovel-sized area.

In fact, nothing stops you from shovelling just plain ol' snow that way.
There's no law you have to pick up the entire snowfall depth in each shovelfull.

So, I usually wait.

Banty


author: krw

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] says...

Depends on the snow.  It's usually light enough here that a foot is
an easy lift.  If it's going to freeze while it's still falling,
leave it.  If after, it doesn't matter all that much.

Any blowing snow is better left until it's done too.

<gotta go do the driveway in a few minutes>


author: Bwan

subject: toddler freindly destinations within day's drive of DFW

text:
Hello,

We've found a deal on motorhome rentals if we go in March. What are
some recommendations of places to go within a good day's drive of DFW
(preferrably on the outer end of that day's distance so we can feel
like we've gotten out of Dodge) where our twin 16 mo. olds can have a
good time and things are open in March?

Thanks!

Bwan


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: toddler freindly destinations within day's drive of DFW

text:
"Bwan"  wrote  > Hello,
DFW where our twin 16 mo. olds can have a

Hate to break the news to you Bwan, but there is nothing within a good day's
drive of DFW that is worth seeing.


text:
[email] (Bwan) wrote in news:cb6c5264.0302181010.78157047
@posting.google.com:

How about some of the state parks?

Inks Lake might be nice,

Washington-On-The-Brazos should be absolutely gorgeous in mid- to late-
March.

I presume you're meaning a day to get there, right?


author: midwesterner

text:
I recently picked up a book from a Half Price Book store called
something like Day Trips within 100 miles of Dallas. Half Price
furnishes Amazon.com with used books. I couldn't find the book at
Amazon.com, but I found a couple of other inexpensive books there that
might be of use:

Exploring Dallas with Children
by Kay McCasland Threadgill

Quick Excapes Dallas/Fort Worth 31 weekend getaways in and around the
Lone Star State
by Jan Naylor

Most people I meet that say there is nothing to see usually have never
wondered out of the Plano city limits.

[email] (Bwan) wrote in message news:<[email]>...


subject: born in united kingdom

text:
if anyone can help me. i was born in england, do i have to have a visa  to
enter canada?


subject: Re: born in united kingdom

text:
"Grizzly9996" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

No, but you DO require a British Passport.  A wet seal (stamp) will be
placed in it on the day you arrive by a customs or immigration officer, and
this serves as a visa valid for admission up to 6 months for visitation.
Employment or study is generally prohinited during your stay.

- A Customs Officer


author: Andrew Miller

subject: Re: born in united kingdom

text:
If you have British passport then you don't need a visa stamp or sticker in
your passport to visit Canada.


author: Autopilot!!!

subject: We do it all for you!

text:
<BASE HREF="file:///C|/stutemp/temp2/streamline newsposting.htm">

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">

   <TITLE></TITLE>
   <META NAME="Author" CONTENT="Stuart Bentley">
   <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) [Netscape]">

IT'S AS EASY AS 1,
2, 3!!!

1. We will recruit and
enroll YOUR Downline for you, AUTOMATICALLY!

2. We have GUARANTEED MONTHLY
CHEQUES!

3. We Give you YOUR own FREE
WEB SITE!

Visit our
web site and Enroll Today!

Put your
income on Auto-Pilot!

ï¿½ No Selling ï¿½ No Sponsoring
ï¿½ No Meetings ï¿½ No Telephone Calls ï¿½ No Presentations ï¿½ No time Required
ï¿½ No Face to Face Contact ï¿½


author: Boothbay

subject: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
Is it possible to make tomato vodka sauce without all that rich stuff
that I see in most recipes...ie heavy cream,  whipped cream, half &
half and etc.


author: record hunter

subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
Gene S. Berkowitz wrote:
<[email]>,
half &
discriminating
You wouldn't be able to taste that? In sufficient quantity to make a
typically pink vodka sauce? Get better yogurt.


author: DrLith

subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
"Boothbay" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

If you want to reduce fat, you can sometimes get away substituting fat free
condensed milk.


subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
Gene S. Berkowitz wrote:
stuff

If you like the flavor of yogurt, that is. Eeew, in my opinion.

To the original poster, how about just a tomato sauce without cream, to
which you add vodka? Just leave out the cream.

When you put the vodka in would depend on whether you want to cook the
alcohol out or not.


author: Gene S. Berkowitz

subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] says...
Try plain yogurt.

--Gene


author: Joel M. Eichen

subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
"Boothbay" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

REPLY

I thought vodka, straight vodka was called "sauce."

Joel


author: Travis Jordan

subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
Boothbay wrote:

Of course.  Just substitute Cremoraï¿½.  You wouldn't know the difference.


subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] says...

If you can taste yogurt in a tomato base, you have a very discriminating
palate.

--Gene


author: Robert Morien

subject: Re: Vodka sauce without cream

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "Joel M. Eichen" <[email]> wrote:

That's a skill you've yet to demonstrate


author: Westcan

subject: Wireless Company Seeking Shell

text:
Wire Infrastructure Company is seeking a NASD-OTCBB trading and reporting
shell.
Please, serious replies only.

Regards, Kevin

Westcan Business Development Corp. / WestGem Securities Corp.
CORPORATE FINANCE & MANAGEMENT
265-16 Midlake Blvd, SE
Calgary, Alberta
Canada T2X 2X7
Bus: (403) 201-7713
Fax: (403) 201-7719
Cell: (403) 605-1311

Email: [email]
Internet: http://www.westcan.ab.ca


author: Ross Murker

subject: Scale trading

text:
Has anyone here done it?  And, if so, has it worked?  It seems to survive
back-testing quite nicely, was wondering if anyone's seen
updates/refinements to Mr. Wiest's work?


author: Troutman, Defender of Sticks

subject: Re: Scale trading

text:
On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 00:43:10 GMT, "Ross Murker" <[email]>
wrote:

Back when I was a broker, I had a small number of clients who tried it.
One of those people made it work; the others all blew out.

Scale trading *can* work, but there are two common failures that foul up
traders who try it, and one or both of them manage to catch almost
everyone.

First, is starting with too ambitious a scale.  Scaling the Gold market
at $300 with a $10 interval is flat-out stupid.  Why?  Because what if
Gold drops to $150 -- can you really withstand that, and the long
painful years that might intervene before you finally get your money
back out?  What traps people is looking at where they think the bottom
is most likely to occur, NOT where the zero point takes them (or the
point that's ridiculously below the cost of production).

We had a huge bear market in agricultural commodities not too long ago,
and that killed a lot of scale traders.  Wheat had fallen from 600 to
400, and then fallen a little lower.  Lots of people jumped in along the
way because it was impossible for it to go to, say, around 250 where it
still was last month.  If a scale trader hadn't planned for the
ridiculously unlikely, they got in trouble.

And that leads up to the second problem, which is undercapitalization.
Regardless of the reason (trading too many markets, too ambitious a
scale or simply getting stung by a huge bear market),
undercapitalization is more deadly for scale traders than for almost any
other kind of trader.

In my kind of trading, where I take a single position in a market at a
time (which is what I think most people do), I use a stop that limits my
normal loss to a fixed and predictable amount for each trade.  I can
determine ahead of time how much to lose barring a market anomaly, and
not take the trade if I don't like it.  If things don't work out, well,
too bad so sad and I move on to the next one.

But in scale trading, if you "lose" on a trade because the market goes
the wrong way, you add a contract instead of getting out.  This
increases your risk.  How long do you do that?  Until the market turns
around and gives you back your profits... OR until you find yourself
faced with a margin call and an unforgiving market.  THEN, when you take
your loss it's absolute.  If you stick with your scale until it's too
late, well, it's too late and you're busted.

You can also decide that the market is slipping too far before you get
completely ruined, and you can merely take a severe loss.

I had only one client, as I said, who successfully scale traded.  How
did he do it?  He bought low, as the oversized bear market had already
traveled quite some way in many commodities; had a VERY extended scale
downwards that he was still prepared for; traded a dozen markets at the
same time for diversification; and had a HUGE cash reserve that he could
draw on when things went sour.  Huge as in seven figures plus -- forget
the idea of scale trading with $10K.  In other words, he had more than
enough to withstand a total collapse in pretty much all of his markets.

Could he have still blown out?  Surely, and it would have been quite a
train wreck, but he didn't.

So, the short end to a long and boring story is that it *can* work, but
most people will still fail at it because they will be overconfident,
undercapitalized, and run out of money or gumption or both before the
market turns around.

That's what I've seen, anyway.  Even if I were using a couple million, I
still wouldn't trade that way with my own money.

Jon


subject: Re: Scale trading

text:
I've done it and made about 35% this year, which is much better than
most people who trade. However I've added a few refinements along the
way that will get me in at the right time of year and also the right
stage of the weekly cycle.I also factor in carryover.  This limits my
drawdown which is a major psychological factor. The other thing is that
in my opinion most people who trade don't have the staying power to
stick with one idea. They start buying contracts, they are holding a
paper loss which depresses them and then they get an offer for a new
system in the mail which promises 2000% a year so they sell their scale
trades and say that it doesn't work.

   I wouldn't trade it as recommended in Robert Weist's book. Check out
a book called 'Be a winner trading commodities'. It has some alternate
trading strategies that will get you thinking. Also it pays to be very
conservative. I will never make more than 50% a year.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


subject: Re: Scale trading

text:
I haven't read it, but scale trading sounds like a form of buying down
and selling up. Averaging down makes sense for investors in stocks
(assuming they understand what/why they're buying the business). And
dollar cost averaging is fine for someone buying index funds during
their working life. But stocks are shares in business firms that (can)
generate wealth.

For commodities, it's not a good idea, I think. (I'd go back and see
what data/methodology the back-testing was done with.) Commodities are
are "worth" whatever users can and want to do with them, so they can't
be played for a turnaround in prices. There's no "correct" reference
price in terms of either inflation adjustments or even what the
commodity costs to produce. Even if you're sure that long-term supply
and demand curves are going to pass at a higher (or lower) price,
there's the question of when. What's your money worth in time? And
forget about making this kind of bet with high leverage!

Leif

In article <yYfX5.117219$[email]>,
  "Ross Murker" <[email]> wrote:
survive

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


subject: Re: Scale trading

text:
I would say its the other wat around. If you had scaled into a stock
like Pets.com you would have lost a fortune. AG Commodities will always
be worth something. People will always have to eat so unless someone
discovers that eating wheat causes ebola, there will always be a market
for it - unlike a lot of stocks which just go under.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


subject: Re: Scale trading

text:
Please re-read what I posted about dollar-cost averaging and tell me if
you still disagree with me. I didn't say anything about throwing
everthing into a dot.com down to 0.

If you think open-end buying down ags is a good idea, youre free to do
it, it's your money looking for the turn. Good luck.

Jan

In article <90s08g$gmv$[email]>,
  [email] wrote:
always
market

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


subject: Re: Scale trading

text:
I would still rather scale wheat than most stocks. At least you can
figure out a reasonable cost basis for it based on the carryover and a
few other things. Although I do admit to buying into KO (Coca Cola) on
the way down and selling it on the way up. There arn't  many stocks I
would do that with though.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.