author: james g. keegan jr.

subject: Re: Plug Pulling at Nyx

text:
In article <[email]>, MACALD  <> wrote:
: ya ya ya

this is a pretty accurate description of some of the
highlights.

in reality, aburt was far more dishonest and seemed to
run amok in the abuse of his sysadmin authority.

: ==========Mark A. Cochran, 6/7/95==========
: In article <[email]>,
: Peter McDermott <[email]> wrote:
: ->In article <[email]>,
: ->[email] (The Bitch Is Back) wrote:
: ->
: ->>>no it isn't.  mark wasn't kicked off for his opinions but,
: ->>>like you, for continually spamming like a demon.
: ->>
: ->>According to Andrew Burt, sysadmin of Nyx, in message id:
: ->><3oo6td$[email]>, mcochran@nyx{10}.cs.du.edu
: ->>(Mark Cochran) posted 115 messages out of 1300 messages
: ->>OVER A TWO MONTH PERIOD.
: ->>
: ->>Tell us again how posting three.something DIFFERENT messages per
: ->>day to a newsgroup is "spam".
: ->
: ->This sounds like a really interesting fight. I wish I had even
: ->half a clue what it was about.
: ->
: You can get all the gory details from Keiths' ftp site, but here's a
: summary.
:
: Keegan and Spordon didn't care for each other and would take pot shots
: at each other from time to time.
:
: Spordon replied to an article written by Keegan, adding extra
: attribution marks (">") follwoed by words written by Spordon. This had
: the effect of making it appear that Keegan had written these words.
:
: Keegan complained to [email] (the sysadmin for Nyx, from
: which spordon was posting these forgeries).
:
: Andrew Burt ignored the complaints, stating that forgery was a "real
: world" issue and had to be dealt with in the real owrld, "with
: lawyers". He stated that he would take no action to censure spordon
: unless keegan first presented him with a court decreee stating that
: spordon was guilty of the crime of forgery.
:
: Keegan continued to complain, until eventually aburt told him he
: didn't want to hear about it.
:
: Keegan interpreted this as an order to stop sending email about it, so
: he posted his complaints publically in nyx.misc from his nyx account.
:
: At this time, aburt posted that he would close both account (keegan
: and spordon) if there was any further mention of spordons forgeries,
: in any venue. In reply to a question, he stated that he would close
: the accounts even if the complaint was posted to misc.test or any
: other newsgroup, anywhere.
:
: Keegan did post another complaint about spordons forgeries, and aburts
: lack of responsivness.
:
: Andrew Burt closed both accounts. At this point, I entered the fray.
:
: I protested against aburts handling of the episode, as I felt he
: bungled it badly. It seems clear to me that had aburt merely
: instructed spordon to stop forging words, the problem would have been
: resolved.
:
: Over a 2 month period, I posted an average of 3 messages a day to
: nyx.misc, not all related to this issue (though certainly most were).
:
: I originated *no* threads, but confined my articles to responses to
: others articles. In each of my articles related to this thread I
: continued to maintain that neither spordon or keegan should have lost
: their accounts.
:
: I received threats via email from aburt, in which he stated at
: varioous times that he would close my account, or, if I "bugged" him
: too much about this, that he would shut down Nyx.
:
: In his efforts to bury his mishandling of the affair, Andrew created
: nyx.policy and asked that all traffic about this issue be posted
: there. He specifically invited off-site posters to post to nyx.policy.
:
: Andrew then closed my account at Nyx, declaring that my 3 messages a
: day were "swamping the newsgroup" and that disagreeing with him in a
: public forum constituted "harrassment". He did this despite his
: declaration that "harrassment" was one of those "real world" issues
: about which he would take no action without a court decree . He, of
: course, had no such decree.
:
: When I (and others) posted from NETCOM to nyx.policy, aburt then
: complained to our sysadmins, stating that nyx.* was a local only
: hierarchy and that off-site posts were not allowed. The most
: significant detail of this action is that he complained *only* to the
: postmasters of those who posted articles disagreeing with him; he did
: not comoplain about *any* poster who supported him, including those
: posting from the same ISP as Keith, keegan and I.
: Futher specific examples of this discriminatory action include:
: naql, McClatchie, Mancini et al posted many articles to nyx.* (and
: continue to do so). Andrew filed no complaints about their postings,
: as each supported aburt.
: David Truland posted *one* article to nyx.misc; an article which was a
: followup to one posted by Andreww Burt, which Andrew crossposted to
: numerous groups, including nyx.misc. David does not support Andrew,
: and a complaint was fired off to Davids sysadmins immediately, in
: response to this singular followup.
:
: That's where it sits now, essentially.
:
: --
: Grandpa Charnock's Law:
: 	You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive.
:
:


author: henry

subject: Scientology cult crushes freenets!

text:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email]>, MACALD  <> wrote:

[not THIS again!]

however, regardless of these ancient and dead issues,
currently the serious issue is that a freenet has been
threatened into silence by the cult of scientology,
setting a precedent for more harassment of the sysadmins
of freenets at the slightest whim of any fool with a
lawyer.

unlike most prior cases of threats of legal harassment
over net posts, which are usually bluster and hot air,
this attorney, the barratrous and criminal helena kobrin,
who from the simultaneity of cancel forgeries,
some from federal computers, which seem to be issued
at the same time as threatening letters from kobrin,
evidently sanctions criminal acts, and has certainly
not dared to repudiate such ties.  indeed, kobrin was
fined almost $20,000 last year for filing a frivolous
RICO complaint under Rule 11, and her reputation as
a barrator is unparalled in the history of the net.

currently she is suing Netcom, support.com, Dennis
Erlich, and god knows who else--that's just people
on alt.religion.scientology.

h
- --
              Xenu's Famous House o' Clams T-shirts!
 *All* profits go to MoFo to help with the Dennis Erlich Defense Fund.
       $15 per shirt, 3 colors. Design will be released shortly.
            Email to: [email] for details

 [ For Public Key: finger [email] ]

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Version: 2.6

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author: SneakyP

subject: Re: emediausa.com - what's the scoop with them?

text:
[email] wrote in news:59adnRCNX-xD-
[email]:


author: Some Bastard

text:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 20:17:33 -0800, [email] wrote:

<snip>

its spam.  And its a crapspace ip, all the more reason to firewall the
entire range (184.106.0.0/16) and forget it.


author: Demosthenes

text:
In article <[email]>,
 <[email]> wrote:
[snip]

Wait, they can't e-mail you the newsletter, but they can e-mail you to tell
you they can't e-mail you?

I think it's a case of Krueger's Corollary to Rules #1 and #3: Spammers'
lies are really stupid.


author: Nobody > (Revisited

text:
On 3/7/2011 2:53 PM, SneakyP wrote:

Racksnot is (IMHO) basically just another clues-deprived webhoster with
no real abuse department. They've saddled themselves with so many bummer
downstreams by contract that offer crap deals that they can't get out
from underneath the "bad PR" for 20 years.

I see an awful lot of the "affiliate" crap pushing the "three-foot
website" (with the god-awful vids and audio therein) from their
downstreams, the usual Four-Ex, "marketing leads"...

There's one nice part about the "new phone plans", unlimited
long-distance calls. (I've had that for years). This is even in
Racksnot's favor but many years ago..

Abuse@racksnot has always been worthless. Their NOC was better at it,
just drop a call on them, send them the spam while on the fone, and I'd
get a 'no problem, it's gone' and the URL was toast ... 5 minutes max.

Old days, old ways. I can't even get a totally obvious PHISH or malware
site taken down on the phone anymore.....

As for whitelisting;
that's a beartrap for most of us.
It works if you have more than one email addy and can remember to *only*
use the ass-kicker-account for those you want to keep in your whitelist.
All it takes is one or two screwups and you have to dig hard to get it
back to intended purpose.
All it takes is to have one of your "whitelistees" get pwned...

Part of me is still in the old 'in awe of the possibilities' of the
'net, getting an email out-of-the-total-blue from an old military buddy
from back in 1969 who's just guessing and trying is one thing. It did
turn out OK, he had the keywords that no social-engineer clown would know.

Whitelisting would have killed that one.

I know I'm probably speaking to the choir here, but having your own
"domain name" and control of the email therein is the best answer I've
found. I can't say I have "total control", my webhost still handles the
email overall, but I can create +tagged addresses, new addys, and check
the "catch-all" to see who's knocking at my doors. (and yes, I do have
[email] listed/WHOISed on abuse.net)

Could be just me, but +tagging seems to have the best effect, especially
if you "brand your plus tags".

"me"[email]... I do cut slack on newbies who market via
Amazon, but Amazon doesn't want to be Spamazon anymore. (Wonder why?)
All it takes is one or two emails or phone calls, and either the
marketer is toast or I get an efflusive apology from a first-time
offender that's also CCed to Amazon..


author: TOASTEDspam

subject: Re: Add to Kelly Chien Dox

text:
On 6/12/2013 12:05 PM, Victor Williams wrote:

Let's see, agreed there's no grounds for a suit. All i've ever done to
Andrew is call him a stupid idiot and a poopy-head, both of which are
demonstrably and obviously true. And as Andrew has made himself a
public figure, he invites whatever derision he deserves.

As far as the rest, i've never been known as, called, addressed, filed,
logged, or in any other way associated with "Kellie". There are several
Kellie Chiens in the world, but none of them are me.

I don't live with my parents. I live at an address my mom used to have,
but only because i like the house so much that after she moved
elsewhere, i took it over. As it is, my mom and step-dad are more
active and on the go than i am and they take excellent care of themselves.

As for all the rest, Andrew didn't show one single valid email, phone
number, post office box number, or IP address in any of that. I know
exactly where he got all that information because i've seen it myself.
He's visiting sites like Radaris that accumulate bits of data and then
merge them all together, inappropriately. They may find an old phone
number, then find everyone else who's ever had that phone number, then
say that the first person they found has lived in or owns every other
address/company name they find. They'll also find everyone else who has
the same or nearly similar name and say that all of those people have
had that phone number and lived at those addresses.

I can't even begin to guess where they got those IP addresses from, but
none of them are networks i've ever used.

In the end, they end up with about one accurate, though way outdated,
fact with maybe 100 complete false and made up errors to go with it.

And Andrew trusts all of it as gospel. Of course. He also believes the
likes of Scoville who fabricates almost all of his information too.

Andrew is a shit-for-brains imbecile.

--
The lurkers deride me in email.
TOASTEDspam.com


author: Usenet Account

subject: Re: Add to Kelly Chien Dox

text:
On 12/06/2013 1:57 PM, TOASTEDspam wrote:

He can't be much of a "public figure" as WikiPedia rejected him and gave
Scoville a mention ;)

--
This space intentionally left blank.


subject: Re: Add to Kelly Chien Dox

text:
On 6/12/2013 2:09 PM, Usenet Account wrote:

Anyone who has registered a political party is automatically, by
definition, a "public figure".

--
The lurkers deride me in email.
TOASTEDspam.com


author: Rune Persson

subject: Re: Add to Kelly Chien Dox

text:
TOASTEDspam <[email]> wrote:

But not necessarily "noteworthy".
As Andrew Stephens shows, every idiot can apparently start something he
calls a political party.
And a church.

A setup with a "church" and a "political party" could also be a nice money
laundry.

--
 rune
 Email will only be read now and then.
 After some time the address will be deleted.


author: Adam H. Kerman

subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Mark Kramer <[email]> wrote:

There is a regional top-level hierarchy for Rhode Island. I wonder if
any of you will acknowledge this.


author: Dave Sill

subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Adam H. Kerman wrote:

Yes, and the redundant alt group should be removed.

-Dave


author: Steve Bonine

subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Adam H. Kerman wrote:

Even if you think it's flawed, the rationale for creating the new group
is that people cannot access groups outside of the Big-8 because their
ISPs have dropped them from their news servers.  Thus the existence of
the hierarchy or any other groups outside the Big-8 is irrelevant
because the affected people can't access them for the same reason that
they cannot access the existing group in the alt hierarchy.


author: Mark Kramer

subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
In article <[email]>,
Adam H. Kerman <[email]> wrote:

You spend quite a bit of effort attacking people who are on your side,
Adam.

Because of that, and the fact that the existance of a top-level Rhode
Island is irrelevant, I don't really care what you wonder anymore.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Dave Sill <[email]> wrote:

Thank you for the alert, Dave. How to you propose to do that?


author: Charles

subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
In article <[email]>, Steve
Bonine <[email]> wrote:

The problem with the rationale for creating the new group is that while
some of the ISP's like Verizon are now carrying the Big-8 only, other
ISP's like Time-Warner are dropping all newsgroups. So creating the new
group would only help a subset of the users who are being affected by
this coerced dropping of newsgroups by ISP's. The solution to this
particular problem short of turning back the politicly motivated
coercion campaign, is moving to an ISP, that carries all the
newsgroups, or subscribing to an NSP for newsgroups, not creating new
groups in the Big-8.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Steve Bonine <[email]> wrote:

The rationale doesn't even make sense. Verizon is exiting Usenet. For
the moment, they've decided to offer Usenet in a next-to-useless manner,
the Big 8 and a local hierarchy. Users genuinely interested in Usenet
should treat it like a situation in which the server was entirely
withdrawn.

Again, there's nothing new about this. It has become extreme uncommon
that a major ISP would offer Usenet. Time Warner Cable/Road Runner was
reselling Highwinds Media, but stopped doing that. Comcast stopped
offering its servers inherited from ATT-BI and is reselling Giganews. At
some point they may stop doing that.

That ISPs change their business practices from time to time with regard
to Usenet, for whatever reason, is an illegitimate rationale for
starting new Big 8 groups.

In truth, we really don't know if Verizon would create any more Big 8
groups since their current business practice is to inconvenience their
current Usenet users, not offer a decent News service.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Mark Kramer <[email]> wrote:

We're having a discussion. I'm offering advice and I'm pointing out a
specific issue that no one has yet acknowledged. Yeah, that's further
evidence that a Big 8 group would be redundant, whether you care or not.

If my observation makes you feel picked on, feel free to take your
marbles and go home.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Charles wrote:

I agree with your opinion, but I do understand the motivation of the
proponents of a Big-8 group.

If nothing is done, some participants in the discussion will be lost.
We can pontificate that there are alternate ways to access the alt
group, but it does not change the simple fact that some participants,
when faced with the fact that they must expend effort to continue to
participate in the discussion in alt.rhode_island, will decide that it's
not worth the effort.  I have no idea how many people fall into this
category, but if Verison has already dropped the alt groups from their
server it should be possible to discern whether participation in the
newsgroup has declined.

If the Big-8 group is created, some of the people who lost access will
subscribe to it.  Some of the participants in the alt group will
subscribe.  But there will be two groups and two discussions.  More
people will be able to participate in a discussion of the topic of Rhode
Island on Usenet but the quality of the discussion will be degraded
because it is split between two newsgroups.

I have a rather simplistic method of forming my opinion on creating new
newsgroups.  I base it on whether I believe that the discussion will be
improved.  My scope encompasses web forums, mailing lists, and all of
Usenet.  For example, I did not feel that creation of
soc.support.vision-impaired was justified because the topic was already
covered by web forums and other newsgroups in Usenet.  In the case of a
Big-8 group on Rhode Island, I don't feel that the overall discussion
will be improved by the creation of a group in the Big-8.  The
fragmentation of the discussion across two newsgroups is a bigger
liability than the inclusion of a small number of people who don't care
to expend the effort to access the existing group.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
In article <[email]>,
Steve Bonine  <[email]> wrote:

I understand it, too.

Yes. If nobody does anything (except for the NSPs dropping alt), then
participants will be lost. But ...

And that is the critical point that has not yet been voiced.

If someone decides that it is not worth the effort to stay active in a
group, I'm certain that it is not worth MY effort to hand it to him on
a platter. To what extent is everyone else on the net expected to go to
satisfy a "not worth the effort" user of a newsgroup? Should I create a
news to SMS gateway specifically for him, so that every message appears on
his cell phone with no need for him to even log into a computer anymore?

Were this a case of extraordinary effort required, then MAYBE something
should be done. I don't consider it extraordinary effort to get a
different NSP or configure a newsreader to use it. Maybe that's because
that is what _I_ was told when I was unable to get ngp at my existing NSP.

I do not agree with that statement. To be able to participate, one must
have a newsreader and an NSP. Even those whose current NSP drops alt
groups can get a different NSP, and thus they are ABLE to participate,
just not willing to expend the effort.

So do I. I do not see duplicating an existing group as an improvement for
either group or for the system as a whole.

At best, all traffic would be crossposted. Since many servers
(news.killfile.org, e.g.) will not accept articles to non-existing
groups, this best-case will never be achieved. There will be duplicated
discussions, and the non-trivial probability that the person who knows
the answer to a question posted in one group will be reading only the
other. And the most wonderful result of all, an answer to a question
cross-posted by someone who reads only the alt group will be posted by
someone only in the big 8 group.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Steve Bonine <[email]> wrote:

They will be lost anyway. Trying to move discussion from an existing
group to a redundant group won't work any better than NIMBY proposals do.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Mark Kramer wrote:

Maybe, if it improved the discussion.

I certainly understand your feeling.  If a participant doesn't care
enough to find an alternate way of accessing the alt group, is losing
that person's contribution really much of a loss in the discussion?

But you're seeing this from your perspective as a techie, or at least
someone that gives a damn about Usenet.

For me, finding an NSP to obtain access to a newsgroup is Not A Big
Deal.  This is not the case for the population in general, and I expect
that the participant base in alt.rhode_island mirrors the general
population more than the participant base in news.groups.  For many of
the people who have seen their access to alt end when their ISP pulled
the groups, they have no real idea of the alternative.  So "not worth
the effort" takes on a whole new meaning.

People who are interested in participating in news.groups[.proposals]
are heavy into Usenet, and it's not unreasonable to expect them to be
able to cope with things like finding alternate access to newsgroups.
That cannot be said for people who are interested in discussing Rhode
Island.

Allow me to play Devil's advocate with myself.  Let's just say that so
many people are affected by this ISP action that there aren't enough
participants left to sustain a discussion in alt.rhode_island.  And
let's suppose that a Rhode Island newsgroup is created in the Big-8, and
miraculously all of those people who couldn't access it in alt find the
new group, subscribe, start contributing, and all is well with the
world.  Wouldn't that be wonderful.  If someone cared to do so, they
could even post an article occasionally in alt.rhode_island direct
people to the Big-8 group.

Problem is, I just cannot get behind this scenario.  I don't think that
huge numbers of people are affected by the ISP actions, and some
fraction of those are going to participate via Google or find themselves
an NSP.  I find Mark's scenario that describes the evils of two groups
to be much more likely.

One of the proponents is polling alt.rhode_island participants.  If a
lot of them want the Big-8 group, maybe the alt group would be
effectively abandoned and all really would be well with the world.
Let's see what the next step brings.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
In article <[email]>,
Steve Bonine  <[email]> wrote:

If that person cares so little about the discussion that he needs
articles handed to him without any action on his part, he is not going
to be improving the discussion.

I'm seeing this from the perspective of someone who is being asked to
do something to satisfy the needs of someone whose needs do not include
using a newsgroup.

It's nice to be able to insult so many people you don't know, isn't it?
I think people are smarter than you give them credit for.

Let's just say there there are only 25 participants in alt.rhode_island,
according to the proponent, and half of them responded to a survey within
just a few hours of it being posted. I'd say there aren't many people
affected by this at all.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
Mark Kramer wrote:

People who are participating in Usenet, including you, are having
"articles handed to him without any action on his part."  How long ago
did you set up your news reader?  How much activity does it require of
you, on a daily basis, to participate in news.groups?

I'm afraid there's no correlation between the effort a person expends to
participate in a discussion and their contribution to it.  You might
think that if someone struggled mightily to obtain access that their
contribution would be mighty useful, but that's not really the case any
more than saying that someone who simply has to bring up their
newsreader and hit <next> doesn't contribute.

It's not an insult, and it has nothing to do with intelligence.

At least two individuals have posted that alt.rhode_island is the only
alt newsgroup that they still read.  The time and effort to find an NSP
is simply not worth it to them to participate in one newsgroup.  That's
their decision and a reasonable one.

But the point I was making, which you are trying to turn into an insult
to the general population, is that for the vast majority of people
finding an NSP is a daunting task.  It has nothing to do with
intelligence.  You assume that finding an NSP and configuring a news
reader to use it is a trivial task, and it's not trivial for 99.9% of
the general population.

My wife has been sewing since she could reach the pedal of the machine.
  When I need a rip repaired, she says "Oh, that's no big deal" and for
her it's not.  If I had to repair that rip, it would take me hours (and
look terrible).  On the other hand, if my wife had to find an NSP, it
would not be trivial for her.  None of this has anything to do with
intelligence but instead with familiarity with the subject area.

Yes, you're right.  25 is not very many.  If the newsgroup dies, not
many people will be affected. Back in the good 'ole days, this group
wouldn't have had a chance of attracting 100+ votes to be created.

Times change.

I've looked at the existing alt.rhode_island newsgroup.  It's a healthy
group with reasonable amounts of on-topic traffic and an active user
base.  (I suspect that there are many established old-time Big-8 groups
that have an active user base of 25 or under these days.)  What's more,
based on what I see there and the poll information, I'm convinced that
the user base would actually pick up and move to a Big-8 group, making
this the exception to the general rule that creating a parallel group in
the Big-8 would fragment the discussion.

The Big-8 board is chartered with creating well-named, well-used
newsgroups.  Assuming that a second-level qualifier is added to the
name, here's an opportunity to accomplish exactly that.

It's regional.  Is it, really?  Based on the current discussion, the
appeal is at least national.  But so what . . . creating a group in a
regional hierarchy is not possible, nor does it address the issue of the
proponents who are specifically looking for a group in the Big-8.  I
don't think that the Big-8 can be picky these days; if there is an
opportunity to add a group with a built-in user base that will
immediately make it well-used, it seems silly not to take advantage of that.


subject: Re: talk.rhode_island

text:
In article <[email]>,
Steve Bonine  <[email]> wrote:

That a lie and you know it. To read articles in this group, for example,
I need to log into one computer, reach across the net to log into a
second one, run the newsreading program, select this group to access,
scan the subjects to select articles, and then use the commands to tell
the program to display them.  That's after configuring the newsreading
program to look at this group.

It takes a lot of action on my part to get articles, and you very well
know it. When I say "without any action", I mean without any action. That's
why I picked a news-SMS gateway as an example.

Now let's use ngp as an example. To get articles from THAT group, I had to
fool my newsreading program into using a different configuration (not the
default) to access a different server, and THEN go through all the same
steps I just listed for this group.

Claiming that I am having articles handed to me without any action on my
part is simply a lie.

Once you are past the activation energy, I would agree. "Activation
energy", in chemical terms, is the energy required to start a
reaction. E.g., the spark that ignites an H2/O2 mixture. In this case,
activation energy is the effort required to find an NSP that carries the
groups you want. That's a pretty small level of effort. If you cannot
expend even that amount of effort, you are unlikely to contribute to
anything.

In other words, if you don't care enough about a group to do anything
to get it, you aren't going to be a contributing member.

You are now falling into the logical fallacy of "all A is B" implying
"all B is A". I said nothing about people who make the effort to get
a group, I said that those who care so little that they won't make the
effort won't be contributors. In this discussion, we are not worried about
those who will make the effort, because they will make the effort and
continue to use the existing group.  We need do nothing to make them
happy.

Yes, it is. I accept their decision. I also accept that their decision
will have consequences. They need to accept that, too. If they care so
little about the group that they won't configure their newsreader to
point to any of the free news servers, then I don't feel any need to
help them get access to a different group on the same topic.

In their case, if it is truly the only group they read, then they won't
even need to worry about a "duplicate" configuration so they can get
other groups the free servers don't carry. It's trivial.

No, it is not, and I give people a lot more credit than you do.

It is.

And that is questioning their intelligence. You seem to think that 99.9%
of the population cannot google "free news server", click on one of
the links that list them, and then enter that into a configuration for
"news server". And that they couldn't figure this out for themselves,
if they don't read about it here, or see an article in a.ri saying "here's
how to keep access to this group".

If you used a sewing machine every day, you'd find it wasn't so hard. People
who use a newsreader every day should also not find it so hard. We are not
talking about people who have never seen a newsreader or know nothing at all
about news. We are talking about people who read it regularly.

If it dies, it will not be because we did not create a duplicate of
it. It will be because those who use it CHOSE not to keep using it when
it required a trivial amount of effort to continue.

Not to the detriment of news as a whole, and not in a vacuum. If all we
did was create well-named, well-used groups, we could just duplicate
all the well-used non-big8 groups (with good names) and hope for them
to become well-used.  (You realize, of course, that "well-used" is not
something predictable, and is a different beast than "well-named".)

Nope. Well-named puts it into the ri hierarchy.

Yes, it is. It's a group about rhode-island.

Of course it is possible. How do you think the ones that are there got
there? Magic?

That issue has already been addressed.

Right. Create everything and hope it will all work out in the end, instead
of consider the options and go the best way.

The group already exists. Duplicating a group is not a no-brainer, nor does
it mean that it will be well-used.


author: SINNER

subject: Re: Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
* sittingduck Wrote in news.software.readers:

That and Xnews are the 2 best pieces of free windows software I have
ever used.


author: MartinS

subject: Re: Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
SINNER <[email]> wrote:

Likewise. Who says you never get anything for nothing?


author: Blinky the Shark

subject: Re: Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
SINNER wrote:

Another - smaller and less generally known - piece is MWSnap, a very
nice little screen capture that provides lots of good options to the act
of capping -- choice of file types, ability to save just a selected
area (both of which commonly make it unnecessary to even have to open
your graphics app to tweak the image), and other nice things.

http://www.mirekw.com/winfreeware/mwsnap.html


subject: Re:[OT] Best Freeware (WAS) Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
* Blinky the Shark Wrote in news.software.readers:

I use this one:

http://www.webtree.ca/newlife/printkey_info.htm

Thanks for the link.


author: Alan Connor

subject: Re: Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
On news.software.readers, in <[email]>, "Blinky the Shark" wrote:

<snip>

Calling something used to download pictures and sounds a
"newsreader" is just absurd.

How about "PrettyPictureLookerForAirheadsThatAreHoggingThe
UsenetAndShouldGetTheirOwnServerNetwork"?

AC


subject: Re: Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
* Alan Connor Wrote in news.software.readers:

[...]

How about who the fuck asked you anyway?


subject: Re: Best newsreader for binaries?

text:
* Alan Connor wrote in news.software.readers:

Don't make me go back and post the MID of your post stating you no longer
read my posts please, it is tiresome to keep up with all your lies.


author: Brian MacNamara

subject: Hedgehog FAQ [1/7] - About the Hedgehog FAQ

text:
Archive-name: hedgehog-faq/part1
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Keywords: faq pet hedgehogs

Last-modified: 23 August 2006
Version: 3.89

HEDGEHOG FAQ (part 1 of 7) -- ABOUT THE HEDGEHOG FAQ
Compiled and edited by Brian MacNamara ([email])
Additions, corrections, and suggestions for this file are welcomed.

This document is copyright 2006 by Brian MacNamara.  See section [0.6]
for authorship information and redistribution rights.  In short, you
can give it away, but you can't charge for it.

The basic Hedgehog FAQ has seven parts, all of which should be available
from wherever you obtained this one.  A complete table of contents for
all seven parts is given below.

Please note:  While my knowledge of hedgehogs has grown (far beyond my
wildest expectations when I began the FAQ), my knowledge is still quite
limited, especially in areas of health care.  I did not write, or verify,
all the information in this FAQ.  I have done my best to include only
accurate and useful information, but I cannot guarantee the correctness
of what is contained in this FAQ, regardless of the source, or even that
it will not be harmful to you or your hedgehog in some way.  For advice
from an expert, I recommend you consult the books listed in part 2 [2.1],
or, especially in the case of a suspected medical problem, a veterinarian
who is familiar with hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: CONTENTS OF THE HEDGEHOG FAQ FILES

Part I: ABOUT THE HEDGEHOG FAQ (this file)

0. *** About this FAQ ***

   <0.1> Notes on formatting
   <0.2> Where to get the Hedgehog FAQ
   <0.3> Goal of this FAQ
   <0.4> Credits and editor's notes
   <0.5> Information I would like to track down and add -- please help!
   <0.6> Copyright and redistribution information

1. *** Revision history of this file ***

Part II: FINDING MORE INFORMATION

2. *** Where to get more information ***

   <2.1> What books are there on pet hedgehogs?
   <2.2> Is there any other information available on-line?
   <2.3> International Hedgehog Registry
   <2.4> Hedgehogs Welfare Society
   <2.5> International Hedgehog Association
   <2.6> Canadian Hedgehog Association
   <2.7> Other hedgehog organizations
   <2.8> Miscellaneous hedgehog stuff and sources

Part III: INTRO TO HEDGEHOGS AS PETS

3. *** Introduction to pet hedgehogs ***

   <3.1> What are hedgehogs?  Should I get one?  What's good and bad
         about them as pets?
   <3.2> Where are pet hedgehogs illegal?
   <3.3> Are hedgehogs wild animals?
   <3.4> What's the average hedgehog lifespan?
   <3.5> I'm allergic to cats.  Will I be allergic to hedgehogs?
   <3.6> Do hedgehogs smell?
   <3.7> Do hedgehogs have tails?
   <3.8> Hedgehog monikers -- what do I call a hedgehog?
   <3.9> Her-hog or Him-hog?  What sex is Prickles?

4. *** Getting a pet hedgehog ***

   <4.1> Which types/colours are there?  Male or female?  What age?
   <4.2> How many should I get?
   <4.3> What to look for in a hedgehog / How to choose a hedgehog
   <4.4> How can I find a hedgehog breeder/contact in my area?
   <4.5> When Hedgie comes home
   <4.6> Hedgehog handling / socializing
   <4.7> How can I introduce my hedgehog to my (dog/cat/bird/fish/
         rabbit/etc.) with the least trouble?

Part IV: HEDGEHOGS AS PETS

5. *** Things you'll need ***

   <5.1> What will I need to take care of my new hedgehog?
   <5.2> Do I need a cage?  How should I set it up?
   <5.3> The pet store uses wood shavings as bedding.  Should I?
   <5.4> Litter boxes and what kind of litter should I use?
   <5.5> I'm having problems litter-training my hedgehog.  What should
         I be doing?
   <5.6> Hedgehogs and wheels
   <5.7> Making your own wheel
   <5.8> Any suggestions on toys?

6. *** Basic hedgehog care and training ***

   <6.1> How can I best hedgehogproof my home?
   <6.2> What should I feed my hedgehog?
   <6.3> Commercial hedgehog foods and nutrition
   <6.4> What are good treats?
   <6.5> Any suggestions on bathing, cleaning ears, and clipping nails?
   <6.6> Biting and nipping
   <6.7> HELP, my hedgehog is LOST! (or Hedgehog Hide-and-Seek)

Part V: HEDGEHOG CARE AND UNDERSTANDING

7. *** Things hedgehogs say and do ***

   <7.1> Self-anointing.  What is it?  Why do hedgehogs do it?
   <7.2> My hedgehog snuffles and hides a lot.  Is that normal?
   <7.3> Is he just asleep or hibernating?
   <7.4> My hedgehog sneezes.  What should I do?
   <7.5> My hedgehog's gone ballistic?  Is this normal?
   <7.6> Basic hedgehog repertoire

8. *** Basic health care ***

   <8.1> What health risks should I worry about?
   <8.2> Mites (or mites, not?)
   <8.3> Tattered or ragged ears
   <8.4> Hedgehog first-aid kit
   <8.5> Do I need to spay/neuter my pet?
   <8.6> Vaccinations, etc.

9. *** Problems to watch for and related information ***

   <9.1> Various hedgehog health issues
   <9.2> My hedgehog's had funny-looking stools for a couple of days.
         What's wrong?
   <9.3> My hedgehog's not eating.  What should I do?
   <9.4> How did I get fleas in my home?  How can I get rid of
         them?
   <9.5> Wobbly hedgehogs

Part VI: ADVANCED TOPICS IN HEDGEHOGGERY

10. *** Breeding, babies, and advanced issues ***

   <10.1> Breeding
   <10.2> General care for babies
   <10.3> Hand feeding baby hedgehogs
   <10.4> Colours, types, and species

Part VII: WILD HEDGEHOGS

11. *** Finding Information ***

   <11.1> Intro to wild hedgehogs
   <11.2> What hedgehog books are there?
   <11.3> Is there information available on-line?
   <11.4> Wild Hedgehog Organizations
   <11.5> Miscellaneous Hedgehog stuff and sources

12. *** Care and Helping ***

   <12.1> The hedgehog calendar
   <12.2> Caring for visiting hedgehogs
   <12.3> Feeding and caring for orphan baby hedgehogs
   <12.4> Hedgehog housing
   <12.5> Hedgehogizing your garden
   <12.6> Wild hedgehog health
   <12.7> Dangers to wild hedgehogs
   <12.8> Watching out for hibernating hedgehogs

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

0. *** About this FAQ ***

------------------------------

Subject: <0.1> Notes on formatting

The answers in these files are given in a ``digest format,'' which should
make it easier for you to scan through them for the information you want.
Each question begins with a line of hyphens, followed by its number and
the question itself, as given in the Table of Contents above.  In many
newsreaders, including rn, trn, and strn, you can jump from one
question to the next by hitting CONTROL-G.  You can also look for a
particular answer by searching for its number or for words from the
question.

There are also some formatting aspects which may appear odd at first,
such as indents and combinations of tabs and spaces.  These are used to
automatically convert the FAQ into HTML format, using a utility program I
created for this.  Unfortunately, it's not very adaptable to other FAQs as it
was written in some haste, but it does do a reasonable job on the Hedgehog
FAQ.

Cross-references to other questions are in square brackets; for
example, [2.2] means that more information may be found in section
2.2.

Anti-SPAM measures.  Unfortuantely, email addresses within the FAQ appear to
be favorite targets for SPAMmers.  As a result, I've added "REMOVE_TO_SEND"
to each email address in the text based (posted) FAQ.

For example, if an email address is hedgehog at burrow.com, it would show
as being hedgehogREMOVE_TO_SEND at burrow.com.

Also, I've changed the web based version to display correctly (visually), but
uses another anti-SPAM machanism to prevent the addresses from being searched.

------------------------------

Subject: <0.2> Where to get the Hedgehog FAQ

This FAQ is posted once a month (usually on or around the 20th) to the
rec.pets, rec.answers, and news.answers newsgroups.  It is also available by
anonymous FTP from the main news.answers repository:

       	ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/rec.pets/

(That is, ftp to rtfm.mit.edu and cd into the directory
pub/usenet-by-group/rec.pets).  The files themselves are called:

       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[1_7]_-_About_the_Hedgehog_FAQ
       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[2_7]_-_Finding_more_information
       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[3_7]_-_Intro_to_Hedgehogs_as_pets
       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[4_7]_-_Hedgehogs_as_pets
       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[5_7]_-_Care_and_Understanding
       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[6_7]_-_Advanced_Topics_in_Hedgehoggery
       	Hedgehog_FAQ_[7_7]_-_Wild_Hedgehogs

It's also always available from my hedgehog web page at:

       	http://HedgehogHollow.com/

Finally, Dr. Tetsuro Oka, DMV, has translated the one version of the FAQ into
Japanese, which can be accessed at:

       	http://member.nifty.ne.jp/exoticpet/

Please note that the address, above, is new (Oct, 1999), and Dr. Tetsuro Oka
informs me that he is working on an updated translation of the FAQ.

If you cannot ftp and have no WWW access, send me email
([email]) and I'll be glad to email you a copy.

------------------------------

Subject: <0.3> Goal of this FAQ

This FAQ is intended to cover many of the basic questions about hedgehogs.
It's somewhat unusual in that it deals both with pet (African Pigmy)
hedgehogs, and with wild hedgehogs (primarily European, but also African).
Most of the FAQ is aimed primarily at pet hedgehogs, largely because that is
the information I have to draw on.  I hope to continue to extend the coverage
of the FAQ to address both groups reasonably, and since there is considerable
crossover in how the information applies, much of what is said about one
group is applicable to the other, with a little common sense used in the
interpretation.

The number of books and other sources for information is finally expanding to
a reasonable quantity, however, there is still relatively little information
available on caring for and understanding hedgehogs, at least compared to
most animals.  While this FAQ does not intend to be an in-depth dissertation
on hedgehogs, it is expected to provide some basic information, and to be a
source for new information as it is learned, rather than waiting for the next
book to be published.

I should also point out that I expect to keep the comments fairly light, so
as not to make the bulk of this FAQ qualify as a cure for insomnia.  If you
start to find it boring, tell me -- I probably fell asleep while typing that
section, and messed up on the what I was saying.

I do have to admit to one pang of guilt.  When I discovered there was so very
little information on looking after hedgehogs, I desperately wanted a FAQ to
refer to.  Since there wasn't one (Sorry Nathan, I didn't even know about
your efforts then) I figured the best way to get all the information I wanted
was to write the FAQ, and hope the comments it managed to get would provide
all the missing bits and pieces.  'Nuff said, let's get on with hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: <0.4> Credits and editor's notes

I can take credit for only a relatively small part of the contents of this
FAQ.  Most of the useful information deserves thanks to others.  I have tried
to give credit to the right person in the right place by indenting specific
comments by others and citing the authors.  My real contribution has been to
cobble together the many useful pieces of information on hedgehogs that have
appeared on the Internet, and elsewhere, into a single source.

With this latest version (3.X), I think the FAQ, and myself, have finally
reached the point where we both know something about hedgehogs, at last.  As
part of this rewrite, I've tried to blend in many of the comments that people
have provided, and in some cases, I may have dropped actual quotes from the
FAQ.  I want to apologize to those of you whose information has now become
part of the prose, rather than a separate quotation.  I've done this to try
and make the information flow better for the reader, and I can promise it has
not been done lightly.

Of all the contributors, I would like to extend a special thanks to Nathan
Tenny whose unofficial hedgehog FAQ formed the foundation for the information
below.  Nathan deserves the lion's share of the inspiration on this FAQ, and
should be considered the father of the hedgehog FAQ.  Thanks Nathan -- you
saved my first version from just being filled with hedgehog anecdotes,
instead of good information.

I would also like to thank Katherine Long for the encouragement to actually
pull this together, and Pamela Greene for allowing me to use the ferret FAQ
as a guide for the topics and sections below, and many other useful tidbits
of FAQ formatting.

I have a special thanks for Cathy A. Johnson-Delaney, DVM, who as one of the
first few veterinarians who has owned (or is that owned by?) hedgehogs, has
provided some medical info for the FAQ.  Thanks for the help Cathy, and for
making me feel a lot better about this pile of babbling.

Thanks to Peter Captijn, who almost single handedly kick-started me into
finally adding the information on European hedgehogs that I've been meaning
to for ages (and who actually contributed most of it) -- may your garden be
overrun by prickly little visitors.

And next to David Mantle for sending me an absolutely amazing wealth of
information on European hedgehogs that will take me a while to wade through
and incorporate all the wonderful tidbits into the FAQ.

Sort of a quick separate thanks to all the hedgehog-happy readers of the
rec.pets newsgroup, and the hedgehog listservers, who have unknowingly added
volumes to this FAQ, and especially to Patty-Anne Lea for boosting my ego
above and beyond measure and letting me know for sure that this creation is
appreciated.

In a general sense, I would like to thank all the people at the N.A.H.A.,
HI, and the IHR for their help and encouragement.

I want to extend many thanks to the contributors who all deserve a round of
applause for what they have contributed: Melanie A. Abell; Ron Adrezin;
Andrew Albinger; Debbie Allen; Jeffery Allen; Debbie Andelin; Tammy Baer;
Lance Barlow; Brenda Basinger; Michael Bell; D. Bishop; Shirley Ann Blakeney;
Dick Brisky, Matt and Renee Butcher; Tom Buzzwo; Eloise Campbell; Christi
Cantrell; Travis Carter; Chingur/Lani Richey; chvall; Teresa Claudino; Wayne
W. Clendenin; Kathleen Close; Jazmyn Concolor; Bill Corner; CowFanatic;
Peyton M. Creadick; John R. Daily; Del, Marcin Dobrucki; Doug Dorer and Mary
Anne; Dave Ehrnstein; Elizabeth Galante; Robyn Gorton; Tex Green; Leslie H.;
Michael Hainsworth; Lynn Hallquist; Sophie Hannan, Kim Heys; Kelly A. Hodge;
John Horton; Stefan Hossack; Steph Hyne; Penny Jackson; Laura Jefferson;
Jerry; Julihana; Marcia Kautz; Kay of Hedgehog Helpline; Anders Kemi and Siw
Bjorkgren; Kirby J. Kerr; Lisa Ladouceur; LeAnne and Adrian; Julie Leir-Van
Sickle and Glen Van Sickle; John Lester; George Lewis; Terri Lewis; Alicia
Look; Peter Mack; Melissa Maloney; John F. Masinter; Sharon Massena; Donald
Martin; Janet Martin; Mike McGary; Gerald McKiness; Antigone Means; Melissa
and Heather; Melissa-Lee; Jan Micheel; Elizabeth Jane Monroe; Julie Moor;
Tiffany Mross; Willard B. ``Skip'' Nelson, DVM; Mary Novak; John Ofner; Dr.
Tetsuro Oka, DVM; Ligia Ortega; Tim Pearson; Christine Porter; Pam Powers;
Vanessa Purvis; Dr. Nigel Reeve; Todd Reeves; Paul Ritchey; Cindy Rosa, Lisa
Rowe; Rick Russell; Seabury Salmon; Jon Santarelli; Richard Saunders; Sigrun
Seetrevik; Sheri; Michael Simla; Jon Simmons; Craig Simpson; Shelley Small;
Wendi Smit; Bryan H. Smith; Alexis Sneller; Elyse Spaite; Randy Starcher; Ken
Steigenberger; Pat Storer; Chuck Stoup; Doyle Stradling; Susan & Chia; H.
Swaggert; Teresa; Tirya; Dan Tishman; Barry Turner; Steve Turpin; Anja van
der Werf; Ian Van Natter; Jesse and Kris Welsh; Tom Weston; Kyrstin Westwind;
Linda Wheatley; Janet Willacy; Johnny M. Williams; Dominique Winther; Woobie;
Dawn Wrobel, Jennifer Young-Watson; Kathy and Donald Zepp; and Znofyl; and
last but not least, my resident editors-in-quills Noelle, and copy-girl
Nookie, and the late, dear Velcro, Sprocket, Hocus, Pocus, Quibble, Bramble,
Skewer, Popeye, Quiver, Pepper, Mimosa, Chestnut, Neon, and Nettles.

One last thank you that deserves separate note is to my wife, Betty Gunn for
happily sharing and encouraging my hedgehog addiction, presenting me with
Velcro, and for repeatedly translating this whole thing into English, from
what ends up being little more than a mish-mash of spelling mistakes and
punctuation that bears no resemblance to any language from this planet.

If there is anyone I have missed, you have my apologies, and please let me
know.  I hope that the list above will continue to grow over the coming
years.

------------------------------

Subject: <0.5> Information I would like to track down and add -- please help!

This is your chance to help add things to the FAQ.  Some of the specific
information I'm trying to track down is listed below, but please don't limit
yourselves to this -- I'm very open minded about taking any kind of
information I can get a hold of.

  New or changing information on any hedgehog related organizations and
  charities, clubs, and rescue organizations.  This is a permanent request.

  Further information on places where hedgehogs are not legal as pets,
  or changes that make them legal where they were not.

  More information on hedgehogs as pets in other parts of the world, and the
  types (species) kept as pets in various places.

  Any questions you think the FAQ should answer or discuss -- even if
  (especially if?) you don't know the answer.

  Information on books about and products for hedgehogs.

  Information about hedgehog food.  What brands/types are available and
  where.

  Additional information useful to people dealing with wild hedgehogs,
  especially those in Europe.

  Updated information on current veterinary literature sources for
  section [8.6].

  Information on hedgehog health problems and treatments.

Some of the things I hope to add over the upcoming releases are:

  (I'm still trying to finish tidying up all the changes in the V3.X
  rewrite of the FAQ -- as soon as I can start to look forward, again,
  I'll add some meaningful plans, here).

------------------------------

Subject: <0.6> Copyright and redistribution information

This compilation, is copyright 2006 by Brian MacNamara.
It may be freely distributed by electronic, paper, or other means,
provided that it is distributed in its entirety, including this notice,
and that no fee is charged apart from the actual costs of distribution.
(For-profit service providers such as CompuServe and America Online
are granted permission to distribute the files provided that no
additional fee beyond standard connection-time charges is levied.)

Those portions of this file written by others remain the property of
their respective authors.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

1. *** Revision history of this file ***

------------------------------

Subject: Revision history

The most accurate description of the version of this FAQ is the date
at the top.  For really minor changes, I won't necessarily change the
version number, but I'll always change the date.

Version 3.89 - 23 August 2006

  No changes this month,.

Version 3.88 - 24 July 2006

  No changes this month,.

Version 3.87 - 20 June 2006

  No changes this month,.

Version 3.86 - 22 May 2006

  No changes this month,.

Version 3.85 - 22 April 2006

  No changes this month,.

Version 3.84 - 21 March 2006

  No changes this month, but Posting is working again, at last.
  February's did go out, eventually, and hopefully March's will mark
  the return to a regular posting schedule.

Version 3.83 - 25 February 2006

  Note: I am still working on getting USENET posting to work, again -
  unfortunately this is not as easy as it should be when authorization
  is required,  Hopefully, sometime before the March update, the Febuary
  version will get posted.

Version 3.82 - 22 January 2006

  Revised sections [0.6] (another year passes), [1.] (always)

  Note: Due to my present ISP dropping USENET support without notice, I'm
  presently unable to post the FAQ to the newsgroups.  I'm looking at
  various USENET providers as a solution, and hopefully this will be
  resoved fairly soon.

Version 3.81 - 21 December 2005

  No changes this month.  Best wishes and Happy Snuffles for the Holidays.

Version 3.80 - 23 November 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.79 - 23 October 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.78 - 25 September 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.77 - 25 August 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.76 - 26 July 2005

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (always), [10.3] (added
  warnings about KMR with hoglets and alternate suggestions).

Version 3.75 - 20 June 2005

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (always), [2.6] (added
  section on Canadian Hedgehog Association, and renumbered 2.6-2.7 to
  2.7-2.8 to accomidate).

Version 3.74 - 24 May 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.73 - 20 April 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.72 - 22 March 2005

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes :-( ), [1.] (as ever),

Version 3.71 - 26 February 2005

  No changes this month.

Version 3.70 - 21 January 2005

  Revised sections [0.6] (update copyright), [1.] (always).

Version 3.69 - 20 December 2004

  Revised sections [0.1] (notes on anti-SPAM formatting for email addresses),

  Changes to all sections to modify email addresses to make them SPAM
  resistant.  Note for text versions you must remove the "REMOVE_TO_SEND"
  from emails to allow them to work.

Version 3.68 - 27 November 2004

  No changes this month.

Version 3.67 - 26 October 2004

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributions), [1.] (always), [6.3] (added
  Exotic Nutrition Pet. Co. and some notes).

Version 3.66 - 25 September 2004

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes :-( and :-) ), [1.] (always).

Version 3.65 - 25 August 2004

  No changes this month due to computer problems.  I just hope things work
  well enough to post the FAQ.

Version 3.64 - 26 July 2004

  No changes this month.

Version 3.63 - 22 June 2004

  No changes this month.

Version 3.62 - 24 May 2004

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [11.3] (updated CHPS web site - at last).

Version 3.61 - 20 April 2004

  No changes this month.

Version 3.60 - 21 March 2004

  No changes this month.

Version 3.59 - 29 February 2004

  No changes this month.

Version 3.58 - 25 January 2004

  Revised sections [0.6] (update copyright), [1.] (always).

Version 3.57 - 27 December 2003

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (always), [3.2] (status
  for Wyoming - hedgehogs are allowed).

Version 3.56 - 24 November 2003

  No changes this month..

Version 3.55 - 26 October 2003

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes :-) ), [1.] (always).

Version 3.54 - 25 September 2003

  No changes this month.

Version 3.53 - 27 August 2003

  No changes this month.

Version 3.52 - 26 July 2003

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [6.3] (added Brown's Nutrition Plus
  premium diet Hedgehog food)

Version 3.51 - 25 June 2003

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors :-) and staff changes :-( ),
  [1.] (always), [3.2] (status for Quebec has changed - hedgehogs are
  allowed as pets).

Version 3.50 - 25 May 2003

  No changes this month.

Version 3.49 - 25 April 2003

  No changes this month.

Version 3.48 - 23 March 2003

  No changes this month.

Version 3.47 - 22 February 2003

  Revised sections [0.4] (contributors), [1.] (always), [2.1] (Updated links
  and prices for RZU2U).

Version 3.46 - 27 January 2003

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes :-( and :-) ), [0.6] (Where did the
  year go?), [1.] (always), [6.3] (Updated address for ABC Inc).

Version 3.45 - 28 December 2002

  No changes this month.

Version 3.44 - 25 November 2002

  No changes this month.

Version 3.43 - 27 October 2002

  No changes this month.

Version 3.42 - 29 September 2002

  No changes this month due to changing ISPs, OSs, etc.

Version 3.41 - 25 August 2002

  No changes this month.

Version 3.40 - 23 July 2002

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes :-( ), [1.] (as ever), [2.5] (updated
  IH`A' information including change from Club to Association throughout)

Version 3.39 - 25 June 2002

  No changes this month.

Version 3.38 - 25 May 2002

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (as ever), [6.2] (a
  caution on dead insects/mealworms potentially causing illness).

Version 3.37 - 25 April 2002

  No changes this month.

Version 3.36 - 27 March 2002

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [2.4] (now the Hedgehog Welfare Society,
  and Carolina Hedgehog Society).

Version 3.35 - 25 February 2002

  No real changes due to the staff changes (both sad and happy).

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes), [1.] (always), [3.2] (added
  indications that hhogs might now be illegal in Pennsylvania).

Version 3.34 - 22 January 2002

  Revised sections [0.6] (Happy New Year), [1.] (always).

Version 3.33 - 23 December 2001

  No changes this month.

Version 3.32 - 25 November 2001

  No changes this month.

Version 3.31 - 25 October 2001

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (as ever), [3.2] (Pet AP
  hedgies in Finland), [5.8] (hedgie stairs).

Version 3.30 - 27 September 2001

  No changes this month.  Duck and Snuffle...
  (Cool weather is coming -- keep your hedgies warm)

Version 3.29 - 27 August 2001

  No changes this month.

Version 3.28 - 24 July 2001

  No changes this month due to hedgie problems.  Sorry.

Version 3.27 - 20 Jun 2001

  No changes this month due to moving (my world is made of boxes).

Version 3.26 - 26 May 2001

  No changes this month due to moving.

Version 3.25 - 26 April 2001

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributions), [1.] (always), [2.8] (added
  theferretstore.com to sources).

Version 3.24 - 25 March 2001

  No changes.

Version 3.23 - 24 February 2001

  Revised sections [0.4] (staff changes), [1.] (always).

  Due to the `staff changes' I was not up doing much else this month --
  sorry.

Version 3.22 - 29 January 2001

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [2.4] (Hedgehogs International have ceased
  operations), various changes throughout to remove references to section
  2.4.

  My apologies for not getting to the other updates that people have sent me
  over the past few months.  I hope to get to some of them for February.

Version 3.21 - 26 December 2000

  No changes.

Version 3.20 - 26 November 2000

  No changes.

Version 3.19 - 24 October 2000

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [2.2] (added note on HedgehogHollow being
  closed for reconstruction), [2.4] (updated info for Hedgehog
  International), [9.5] (added additional info on wobbly hedgehogs).

Version 3.18 - 24 September 2000

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [2.2] (more mailing list changes), [2.4]
  (updated addresses for Hedgehog International).

Version 3.17 - 20 August 2000

  No changes.

Version 3.16 - 24 July 2000

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (always), [2.3]
  (updated HHog Registry info).

Version 3.15 - 25 June 2000

  No changes.

Version 3.14 - 24 May 2000

  Revised sections [1.] (as ever), [2.2] (HH Mailing list has closed, but
  added info on newish list, PigPogLives)

Version 3.13 - 24 April 2000

  No changes.

Version 3.12 - 23 March 2000

  No changes.

Version 3.11 - 26 February 2000

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributors), [1.] (as ever), [11.5] (Added
  info on CJ Wildbird nest boxes and wild hh food).

Version 3.10 - 23 January 2000

  Revised sections [0.6] (updated copyright), [1.] (right here), [6.3]
  (fixed address for ABC).

Version 3.9 - 26 December 1999

  No changes this month -- I've been busy with work and the holidays.
  Sorry.

Version 3.8 - 25 November 1999

  Delayed again.  This time of all things the cause was due in part to
  fixing earthquake induced computer problems (unfortunately, I'm not
  making this one up :-})

  Changed to HI throughout, and Renumbered sections 2.5-2.6 to allow room
  to add IHC as [2.5].

  Revised sections [0.2] (new address for Japanese translation), [0.4]
  (hedgie staff changes), [1.] (still), [2.2] (adjusted AOL chat information
  and removed Lance Barlow's chat which seems to be gone), [2.4] (changed
  to HI), [6.3] (changes to food availability).

Version 3.7 - 27 October 1999

  No changes this month due to hedgie problems.  Sorry.

Version 3.6 - 25 September 1999

  Whoops, missed the date!  Sorry the changes and posting are late.  I've
  been busy with a new job.

  Revised sections [0.4] (more contributers), [1.] (this message), [2.3]
  (updated branch info for IHR), [2.4] (brief update name), [9.1] (added
  notes on Uterine tumours).

Version 3.5 - 23 August 1999

  No real changes, again, this month due to editor changing jobs.  Hopefully
  this will mean more time for the FAQ in the coming months.

  Please note: at this time, only the HedgehogHollow.COM addresses for both
  the FAQ and myself continue to work.  Email sent to my previous addresses
  at PCI will not be able to reach me.  Also, I regret that I have been
  mostly offline over the previous month or so, and I am far behind on
  email.  I hope that I will be able to catch up, starting soon, though
  this will depend on how much time and effort my new job will absorb.

  Revised sections [1.] (this message).

Version 3.4 - 24 July 1999

  No real changes this month due to editor being completely overloaded
  at work.

  Revised sections [1.] (this message).

Version 3.3 - 20 June 1999

  Changed sender to reflect coming from hedgehoghollow.com domain.

  Revised sections [0.4] (more kind contributors), [1.] (always), [3.2]
  (revised info on Maine and PEI).

Version 3.2 - 20 May 1999

  Revised sections [0.2] (ftp access from main news repository, only),
  [1.] (always).

  Few changes due to editor being busy changing ISPs.

Version 3.1 - 20 Apr 1999

  Revised sections [1.] (always), [2.2] (adjusted AOL chat information),
  [8.2] (added caution about alcohol based flea/tick spays, including
  Adams), [9.1] (stressed dangers of sunflower seeds, which like peanuts
  get caught in hedgie mouths, with sometimes deadly results).

Version 3.0 - 02 Mar 1999

  It's done, at last.  My apologies for the delays in getting V3.0 of
  the FAQ together -- it was a much bigger job than I anticipated.

  This release constitutes a major rewrite and reorganization of the
  FAQ.  The first in over 3 years, and 45 monthly updates.  The changes
  are extensive enough that I've removed the revision history between
  V2.0 and V3.0 as the contents were meaningless relative to the `new'
  FAQ.  Only the major versions are shown until updates begin, again.

Version 2.0 - 17 Apr 1995

  Renumbered sections 1 and 2 reversing them to allow for split-up, and
  because it made more sense to me.

  Split FAQ into multiple pieces to try and avoid newsreader size limitations.

Version 1.0 - 10 Jan 1995

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


subject: Hedgehog FAQ [2/7] - Finding more information

text:
Archive-name: hedgehog-faq/part2
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Keywords: faq pet hedgehogs

Last-modified: 23 August 2006
Version: 3.89

HEDGEHOG FAQ (part 2 of 7) -- FINDING MORE INFORMATION
Compiled and edited by Brian MacNamara ([email])
Additions, corrections, and suggestions for this file are welcomed.

This document is copyright 2006 by Brian MacNamara.  See section [0.6]
for authorship information and redistribution rights.  In short, you
can give it away, but you can't charge for it.

The basic Hedgehog FAQ has seven parts, all of which should be available
from wherever you obtained this one.  A complete table of contents for
all seven parts is given in part I.

Please note:  While my knowledge of hedgehogs has grown (far beyond my
wildest expectations when I began the FAQ), my knowledge is still quite
limited, especially in areas of health care.  I did not write, or verify,
all the information in this FAQ.  I have done my best to include only
accurate and useful information, but I cannot guarantee the correctness
of what is contained in this FAQ, regardless of the source, or even that
it will not be harmful to you or your hedgehog in some way.  For advice
from an expert, I recommend you consult the books listed in part 2 [2.1],
or, especially in the case of a suspected medical problem, a veterinarian
who is familiar with hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: CONTENTS OF THIS FILE

2. *** Where to get more information ***

   <2.1> What books are there on pet hedgehogs?
   <2.2> Is there any other information available on-line?
   <2.3> International Hedgehog Registry
   <2.4> Hedgehogs Welfare Society
   <2.5> International Hedgehog Association
   <2.6> Canadian Hedgehog Association
   <2.7> Other hedgehog organizations
   <2.8> Miscellaneous hedgehog stuff and sources

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

2. *** Where to get more information ***

------------------------------

Subject: <2.1> What books are there on pet hedgehogs?

For a long time there was only a single tome available on our prickly little
friends, which was often referred to as ``The Hedgehog Book.''  With the
increasing popularity of hedgehogs, a number of books are now available.
There still seems to be little information on hedgehogs in print, especially
compared to most other animals, but this, fortunately, appears to be rapidly
changing.  Also, many, but not all, of the books that are commonly available
contain outdated information.

As of spring 1997 there are two new complementary books now out that have
virtually made all the previous offerings obsolete.

The first of these additions, is _The Hedgehog: An Owner's Guide to a Happy,
Healthy Pet_ by Dawn Wrobel and Dr. Susan Brown, DVM.  It is published by the
Howell Book House, and is available in pet stores that carry their Happy,
Healthy Pet series.  It is also available through the Spike and Friends
Catalog [2.8].  For those of you who want to order it, the ISBN number is
0-87605-501-3, and it is listed as having a price of $12.95 USD, or $17.95
CDN.

Having had the luxury of seeing some of the preliminary text (thanks Dawn!),
I had high expectations for the book, and when I got to see it, I was quite
amazed at how far it exceeded my imagination.  Simply put, this is a great
book, and one that no hedgehog owner should be without.  It is full of great
tips, ideas and great knowledge, accompanied by some fantastic pictures.  The
medical chapter by Dr. Susan Brown is more than worth the price in itself,
not that the rest of the book wouldn't be a bargain even without it.

Dawn's book is targeted at the pet owner, rather than the breeder, as has
been the case all too often in the past, and in this respect it succeeds
brilliantly.

The other great tome that was published about the same time as the one above,
is _The Pygmy Hedgehog a Perfect Pet_ by Sharon Massena with Bryan Smith.
Having now had the chance to see this book, I can attest that it is more than
worthwhile as well.  The best part about it, is that rather than being
another great hedgehog book, it is complementary to books like Dawn Wrobel's,
by addressing many different areas.  Here is the information I have on it:

       	The ISBN # is 0-9655629-1-3
       	The list price is $16.00 US and $19.00 CDN + post.

       	80 pages, soft cover, gloss pages with b/w and full colour photos.
        Contains limited standard info and full colour pics many of the
        standardized colours.  Also has club and show information.
       	-- Bryan Smith

Due to problems with the publisher, the easiest way to get the book is to
contact Sharon Massena herself.  You can contact Sharon Massena for more
information at:

       	Massena Menagerie
       	5502 Jordan Ave SE
       	Auburn, WA 98092
       	USA

       	phone: (253) 833-0470
       	fax: (253) 833-7490
       	email:  [email]
       	www: http://www.massena.com/sharon/

I should probably add a disclaimer here -- I have had numerous conversations
with Dawn and Bryan, and a bias in favour of either book could easily be
assigned to this.  In the case of Dawn's book, I read the advance text she
sent with the intent to essentially critique it -- expecting it to already be
dated in many ways (as most books have been by the time they get to print) or
just a rehash of what has gone before, and I came away honestly impressed.
Having now seen Sharon's and Bryan's book, the same feelings apply.  I'm sure
that I could nit-pick in minor places, but at most that's what it would be,
nit-picking about things that don't matter.  We finally have very good,
up-to-date books that can go a very long ways towards giving people the
information they need about keeping hedgehogs as pets, and providing them
happy healthy lives.

Going back a bit now, the book, often called ``The Hedgehog Book,'' is
actually titled _Everything You Wanted to Know About Hedgehogs But you didn't
know who to ask_ by Pat Storer.  This was one of the first books available on
pet hedgehogs.

Pat Storer has two books available on hedgehogs, and while there is
considerable crossover between the two, her newer book _Hedgehogs As Pets_
(my thanks to John Ofner for my copy) is targeted more at pet owners, while
the original ``Everything...'' is more oriented towards breeders.  These
books are, for all intents and purposes, the original formal tomes on pet
hedgehogs, and having one or the other was virtually a must for any hedgehog
keeper (keepee?).  While they don't cover absolutely everything, and they are
becoming a bit dated, now, they do provide a lot of very good information.
Both books cover areas of the other to some extent, so a pet owner looking
for basics on breeding will find it in _Hedgehogs As Pets_, while a breeder
can also find pet level information in ``Everything...''

Probably the most essential thing both offer is a reference section on
hedgehog health, body chemistry norms, and drugs (including quantities) that
have been safely used to treat hedgehog maladies.  Given that relatively few
veterinarians in North America have even heard of hedgehogs as pets, let
alone ever treated them, taking one of these books with you to a vet in time
of emergency could easily be a life saving act.

That's the good news; the problem is that these books are generally only
available directly from Pat Storer herself, although the Ain't No Creek Ranch
[2.8] also carries them.  In any case, here are the details:

      	Everything You Wanted to Know About Hedgehogs
       	  But you didn't know who to ask
       	Third Edition

       	Written and Compiled by Pat Storer
       	Country Storer Enterprises, Publisher
       	P.O. Box 160
       	Columbus, Texas   78934
       	USA

       	Fax:    (409) 732-9417
       	email:  [email]
       	www:    http://www.rzu2u.com/

       	Single Copies (In U.S.):     $29.00 US dollars + shipping
       	  by 4th Class Mail

        Please note that Pat Storer no longer takes orders by telephone,
        but she does by fax, and now has email access.

And,

       	Hedgehogs As Pets
       	First Edition

       	By Pat Storer
       	Country Storer Enterprises, Publisher
       	P.O. Box 160
       	Columbus, Texas   78934
       	USA

       	Fax:    (409) 732-9417
       	email:  [email]
       	www:    http://www.rzu2u.com/

       	Single Copies (In U.S.):     $22.00 US dollars + shipping
       	  by 4th Class Mail

Pat Storer now takes credit cards, but money orders are fine too.  The prices
and info above is up to date as of July 1997, thanks to Pat Storer herself.

There is one minor correction to ``Everything...'' that should be noted:

    The correct number for Rainbow Mealworms (mentioned in Storer's
    book) is 310-635-1494.
    -- Katherine Long

Other books on pet hedgehogs are also available and can be found at some book
stores, or by contacting the publishers directly.  I've listed the
information I have on them below. The first is with thanks to Elizabeth Jane
Monroe and Znofyl.

       	African Pygmy Hedgehogs as your New Pet
       	Dennis Kelsey-Wood, pics. by Ralph Lermayer
       	copyright 1995
       	distributed by T.F.H. Publications, Inc.,
       	One T.F.H. Plaza, Neptune City, NJ  07753

       	or  National Book Network, Inc.
       	4720 Boston Way, Lanham, MD  20706

       	or in Canada, H & L Pet Supplies Inc.,
       	27 Kingston Crescent, Kitchener, Ontario N2B 2T6

       	and other places.  ISBN # is 079380192-3

     Abstract:  ``This book represents the culmination of years of research by
     dedicated hedgehog breeders.  Dennis Kelsey-Wood has compiled, through
     intense research, interviews, and study, what I feel is the finest, most
     accurate, and complete gathering of hedgehog facts on husbandry,
     breeding, and care that has ever been assembled in one book.  From its
     accurate text to its superb photos, it is destined to become a classic
     and will no doubt be the standard for anyone interested in these
     fascinating animals.  Enjoy it and Happy Hedgehoggin!''

     Ralph M. Lermayer, [former - ed.] President, North American Hedgehog
     Association [now defunct - ed.]

     For anyone having a hard time finding it, you can call TFH directly
     at 1-908-988-8400, ext. 117 and order it from their customer service
     department.

This is a good book, especially for beginners (which is really where it is
directed).  It does not contain the health standards, and medicine usage
that are in other books, listed above, and is to my mind a good supplement,
but not a replacement for them -- especially if your veterinarian is not
well acquainted with hedgehogs.  I found it to be good reading, but it
always seemed to avoid a direct answer to most questions, lacking in real
detail.  I must admit, however, that the pictures alone were both great
entertainment, and very useful, giving an excellent glimpse of what a
healthy hedgehog should look like.  I'm still trying to figure out how the
photographers managed to avoid getting blurred pictures of all those busy
noses.

Dennis Kelsey-Wood has also released a second book (1996) called _Hedgehogs
Today_.  It can be ordered from TFH, etc., as with his earlier book.

       	Hedgehogs Today
       	Dennis Kelsey-Wood
       	copyright 1996
       	distributed by T.F.H. Publications, Inc.,
       	One T.F.H. Plaza, Neptune City, NJ  07753

       	ISBN # is 0-7938-0103-6

The information above came to me by way of Brenda Basinger.

Having had a chance to look at this book, I have to say the quality of the
photos is excellent.  That, however, is about the only good thing I can say.
The book is full of contradictions, and just plain bad advice.  It goes on to
suggest that you should ``always use a glove'' to hold a hedgehog (which
captions a picture of a person holding one in bare hands).  It also suggests
that a temperature range of from 60-75 degrees F, or 16-24 degrees C is okay,
when many hedgehogs will become unhealthy or even go into semi hibernation at
anything much below 70F/22C.  It shows multiple hedgehogs being kept in a
Tupperware container barely big enough to squeeze them into (although it says
it's not big enough for a ``long term home'' -- it's clearly not big enough
for anything more than carrying them across the room.  Finally, its listing
of states where hedgehogs are not allowed is totally misleading, and was
clearly the result of only the briefest research.  The book even shows
feeding of raw eggs to hedgehogs -- something that can all too easily result
in salmonella [6.2].

While there certainly are good points to this book, including excellent photos
showing how a healthy hedgehog should appear, the sheer weight of bad
information means I cannot recommend this as much beyond a photo album, and
definitely not as a starting point for beginners.

Information on another book, which is now widely available, was sent to me by
Tirya:

       	Hedgehogs:  A Complete Pet Owner's Manual

       	by Matthew M. Vriends, Ph.D.
       	pub: Barron's Educational Series, Inc.
       	ISBN:  0-8120-1141-4
       	Barron's Price:  $5.95 US

     Barron's has published numerous other pet books in their series, and
     they all seem to be well-received and easily available in pet shops.

     It's geared primarily towards the African, though it has a chapter on
     the European as kind of a compare/contrast thing.  It also has a
     chapter on breeding by Pat Storer.  A lot of good pictures and
     information, in an easy-to-read style, plus a chapter on ``Understanding
     Hedgehogs'' covering body language and sounds.  While it's by no means
     all-inclusive (is there a hedgie book yet that is?) it's a good read.
     -- Tirya

The book contains some medical information that complements other books quite
well, but, does not replace them.  However, some of the information is
seriously outdated, and other parts contradict statements made elsewhere in
the book.  The chapter by Pat Storer is taken almost verbatim out of her
books, but is a worthwhile addition to any hedgehog library, and if taken as
a whole, the book is quite good, and is, at the price, probably where most
new hedgehog keepers will start.

For people seeking more in depth information on hedgehogs in general,
including species, natural habitats, and research, another book, which came
out in 1994, thoroughly addresses many of these issues.

       	Hedgehogs
       	by Nigel Reeve
       	ISBN 0-85661-081-X
       	T & A D Poyser Ltd.
       	24-28 Oval Road
       	London NW1 7DX

In published form, this book is probably the best source of true, scientific
information on all types of hedgehogs.  Beyond this point, you probably need
to read scientific papers (30 pages of references to which are at the back of
this book, which gives you some clue to Dr. Reeve's efforts at research).
While it does focus primarily on hedgehogs in the wild, it does provide some
very useful insights into what makes our little friends tick.  I find myself
turning more and more to this book, all the time -- especially when someone
asks me a detailed question.  Unlike many scientific books, this one shows
the author had a real interest and excitement in his chosen topic of
research, rather than limiting himself to dry phrasing, an entertaining sense
of humour and wit shows through.

The book can be hard to come by in North America (the publisher does not
import it here), but it is available through the Exclusively Hedgehogs
catalog [2.8], and the Spike and Friends Collection [2.8].

While I am at it, Richard Saunders passed along word of another book that he
found.  This one appears to possibly be a local effort by a hedgehog breeder
on the west coast of Canada, but just in case, here is the information that
is available:

       	Hedgehogs
       	Hedgehog Handbook
       	- Everything You Need To Know To Raise Happy Healthy Hedgehogs

       	Written & Illustrated by Joan Baydala (Copyright, 1994)

    The small paperback book (64 pages) indicated Joan Baydala is located in
    Kelowna, B.C.  The book doesn't indicate a publisher or any ISBN
    reference.

      	Outline of the book is:
      	A Brief History (page 1-10)
      	Survival In The Wild (11-18)
      	Selecting Your Hedgehog (20-26)
      	Housing (27-34)
      	Care and Management (35-46)
      	Breeding (47-56)
      	Allergies (57)
      	A Few Last Words (58-59)
      	References (60)
      	Index (61-64)

Another resource for hedgehog information is the ``Exotic Market Review.''
This is a journal about exotic animals and pets, and is primarily intended for
breeders.  It contains articles on innumerable different animals that most of
us will never have heard of, but also contains an abundance of info on
hedgehogs.  Subscription rates are $10.00/yr. in the U.S., $30.00/US/yr. for
Canada, and $60.00/US/yr. foreign.  They can be contacted at:

       	EXOTIC Market Review
       	P.O. Box 1203
       	Bowie, Texas 76230
       	USA

       	phone: 1-800-460-3107

In addition to the books and journal, above, which are directly aimed at pet
hedgehogs, there are a number of books on European (or all types of)
hedgehogs which can be useful for pet owners and hedgehog lovers of all
types.  I would suggest looking at the listings in section [11.2] for other
books which might be of interest.

One final tidbit I can't resist adding.  I have heard of a number of new
hedgehog books that are in the works and (hopefully) due out over the coming
year or two.  Information on hedgehogs promises to continue to be
forthcoming.

------------------------------

Subject: <2.2> Is there any other information available on-line?

Discussions of hedgehogs often come up in the rec.pets and on the
alt.fan.hedgehogs and alt.pets.hedgehogs Usenet newsgroups.  The FAQ ``Fleas,
Ticks and Your Pet'' is distributed on rec.pets, as well as listed in [9.4].
Several bulletin board systems keep pet FAQs and discussions, as does the
CompuServe Small Mammals forum.

I maintain a set of Hedgehog WWW pages that can be accessed at:
    http://HedgehogHollow.COM/

(Please Note: most my site is currently closed while under reconstruction --
I hope to have it reopened shortly, with the many out of date entries brought
up to date.)

Among the things available off my pages are links to all other hedgehog pages
I have found, and an HTMLized version of the FAQ.

The list of hedgehog web pages is growing rapidly -- I've been trying to keep
pointers to many of them off my own web page, but by now I'm starting to miss
many, I'm sure.  Feel free to email me if you have one to add to my list of
pointers, or if you find one of my links doesn't work -- I am running way
behind on checking, lately.  :-}

After several changes in location over the years, the original Hedgehog
Mailing List has, unfortunately, closed down.  Many thanks to all the folks
who looked after it through the years.

There are, however, a couple of hedgehog mailing lists that are up and
active.  Fist, is the Hedgehog Help list, and as the name implies is meant
for hedgehog help topics.  Both an individual message version and a digest
version of this list, are available.  One caution: this list is subject to
censorship by the list moderator, and not everyone can freely post to it.

You can join the regular (individual message) version by sending email to
the address:
    [email]

Or for the digest version, subscribe as above then send email to the
following address to switch to the digest:
    [email]

You can switch back to the individual (normal) version, by sending email to:
    [email]

And, of course, to unsubscribe, use the address:
    [email]

Last, and far from least, to send a message to the list, simply send it to:
    [email]

Alternately, there is the PigPogLives mailing list.  I have heard that the
PogPogLives list may have closed, but I have not confirmed this as yet.  The
instructions for accessing PigPogLives are almost identical to the Hedgehog
Help list:

You can join the regular (individual message) version by sending email to
the address:
    [email]

Or for the digest version, subscribe as above then send email to the
following address to switch to the digest:
    [email]

You can switch back to the individual (normal) version, by sending email to:
    [email]

And, of course, to unsubscribe, use the address:
    [email]

Last, and far from least, to send a message to the list, I believe the
address is:
    [email]

Next, another new list that looks very promising is the Hedgehogfun group.
Joining this list is probably most easily done through the web at:
    http://www.egroups.com/invite/Hedgehogfun
and click the ``JOIN'' button.  One caveat -- this appears to be a very busy
webserver, as I've had trouble connecting, although the list, itself seems to
be fine.

I believe you can also subscribe to this list by sending an email to:
    [email]
Probably with the word ``subscribe'' as the text of the message.

The list will send you a confirmation message, which you need to reply to.

To post messages to the list, send them to:
    [email]

To unsubscribe, send a message to:
    [email]
likely with the word ``unsubscribe'' as the text of the message.

My thanks to Pam (Russo) Powers for keeping me up on the info for the AOL
hedgehog chat session.

   The AOL hedgehog chat is on Thursday's at 7:00 P.M. EST
   We love to have new people stopping by.

   The chat is located in the Critter Chat room, located in the Pet Care
   Forum, keyword-Pet Care.

Finally, Dick Brisky of Brisky Pet Products is setting up yet another web
based chat off the YAHOO site.

   I wanted to let everyone know that I will be setting up a chat area at
   YAHOO ( http://chat.yahoo.com/ ) the first Wednesday of each month, from
   7PM to 8PM Eastern. If you're interested in learning more about our pet
   food products or in sharing any ideas or thoughts, stop in.

   To log-in you need to set-up an account there first (free), so stop by a
   couple of hours early if you don't have an account. After that all you
   have to do is search the ROOMS list for a room labeled BRISKY PET
   PRODUCTS and click in.
   - Dick Brisky

I know from my own dealings with Dick Brisky, that he is honestly interested
in things which will improve pet foods and products, and has always been very
open with any information he has had.  This should prove to be a good
variation on the other forums.

For those of you with ICQ access, Lisa Rowe, has set up an ICQ Hedgehog chat
room.  You can get more information about it at:

   http://www.webvoodoo.com/hedgies/

------------------------------

Subject: <2.3> International Hedgehog Registry

Jennifer Young-Watson, with help from Antigone Means, has set up the
International Hedgehog Registry, to try and help track all pet hedgehogs.
Here's an excerpt from the registry information:

   This registry is setting out to register all the [pet] African Pygmy
   Hedgehogs.  We want to do this to a) take a census of all the Hedgehogs
   that are out there b) to cut down on unwanted inbreeding by unknowing
   breeders and c) to help track behavoral and genetic traits.

This is a great chance for your pets to help add to our knowledge about
hedgehogs, so please do register.  Registration is free, although for $10.00
U.S. they do provide a really nice registration certificate, should you want
one.

You can get more information, and register online at their web page:
(Note: new address as of June 2000 -- thanks to Jeffery Allen)
    http://www.hedgehogregistry.com/

or by mail to:

       	IHR Headquarters
       	Jennifer Young-Watson
       	P.O. Box 9880
       	Canoga Park, CA  91309-0880
       	USA

       	email:  [email]  (new as of Oct. 1998)

Other branches exist at:

      	IHR Southern Branch
       	Antigone (Tig) Means
       	Littlerock, AR
       	USA

       	email:  [email]

       	IHR Eastern Branch
       	Vera C. Rhoades
       	Trenton, NJ
      	USA

       	email:  [email]

------------------------------

Subject: <2.4> Hedgehogs Welfare Society

The Hedgehog Welfare Society is a relatively new, and active group that has
come about.  Unlike many of the earlier organizations, this one seems to be
focused more on proper care, and welfare.  You can contact them at:

       	The Hedgehog Welfare Society
       	5308 21st Ave SW
       	Seattle, WA, 98106
       	USA

       	email: [email]
       	www:   http://www.hedgehogwelfare.org/