subject: Hedgehog FAQ [7/7] - Wild Hedgehogs

text:
Archive-name: hedgehog-faq/part7
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Keywords: faq pet hedgehogs

Last-modified: 21 March 2004
Version: 3.60

HEDGEHOG FAQ (part 7 of 7) -- WILD HEDGEHOGS
Compiled and edited by Brian MacNamara ([email])
Additions, corrections, and suggestions for this file are welcomed.

This document is copyright 2004 by Brian MacNamara.  See section [0.6]
for authorship information and redistribution rights.  In short, you
can give it away, but you can't charge for it.

The basic Hedgehog FAQ has seven parts, all of which should be available
from wherever you obtained this one.  A complete table of contents for
all seven parts is given below.

Please note:  While my knowledge of hedgehogs has grown (far beyond my
wildest expectations when I began the FAQ), my knowledge is still quite
limited, especially in areas of health care.  I did not write, or verify,
all the information in this FAQ.  I have done my best to include only
accurate and useful information, but I cannot guarantee the correctness
of what is contained in this FAQ, regardless of the source, or even that
it will not be harmful to you or your hedgehog in some way.  For advice
from an expert, I recommend you consult the books listed in part 2 [2.1],
or, especially in the case of a suspected medical problem, a veterinarian
who is familiar with hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: CONTENTS OF THIS FILE

11. *** Finding Information ***

   <11.1> Intro to wild hedgehogs
   <11.2> What hedgehog books are there?
   <11.3> Is there information available on-line?
   <11.4> Wild Hedgehog Organizations
   <11.5> Miscellaneous Hedgehog stuff and sources

12. *** Care and Helping ***

   <12.1> The hedgehog calendar
   <12.2> Caring for visiting hedgehogs
   <12.3> Feeding and caring for orphan baby hedgehogs
   <12.4> Hedgehog housing
   <12.5> Hedgehogizing your garden
   <12.6> Wild hedgehog health
   <12.7> Dangers to wild hedgehogs
   <12.8> Watching out for hibernating hedgehogs

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

11. *** Finding Information ***

------------------------------

Subject: <11.1> Intro to wild hedgehogs

This FAQ originally started out (and is still largely oriented at) pet
hedgehogs.  So why the emphasis on their wild cousins?  Hedgehogs enjoy a
very unique niche in that they seem to inspire people to like them (or in
many cases, fall head over heels in love with them) and want to help them
out, or at least want to enjoy the company of hedgehogs in and around them.

Our views of hedgehogs in the wild transcend what we normally feel for most
`wild' animals that we encounter.  How many animals do we go to such great
lengths to encourage to come into our gardens and backyards for a visit?  How
many wild animals get the same level of helping hand, with food being put out
specifically for them?  And how many animals have hospitals named just for
them?  (I realize these kind hospitals do not limit themselves to treating
just hedgehogs).

How many of us can resist the cute little face of hedgehog -- something that
just reaches out to our hearts for help.  One only has to look at the number
and variety of organizations that are trying to help out hedgehogs in need to
see how great the interest is.  This makes it all the more amazing that
hedgehogs were hunted and persecuted only a few decades ago, as being pests.

Why hedgehogs inspire so much human compassion is often very hard to pin
down.  The fact that they do, and that this desire to help seems to be so
very widespread, is nothing short of impressive.  Even so, our prickly little
friends face what is still often a losing battle, in the face of human
encroachment, and the dangers it often brings with it.

Fortunately, everyone who lives where wild hedgehogs can be found, can take
part in helping out our little friends.  This can vary from simply making
some of the everyday throwaway items a bit safer before being tossed out, to
adapting a garden area to be attractive to hedgehogs, or even helping out
with one of the hedgehog help/rescue organizations.  No special skills are
needed to help out -- just a love of hedgehogs.

Of course, there are those who simply collect hedgehog memorabilia
(hedgehogabilia) as their way of showing their interest in hedgehogs.  This
is how I came by my love (well, addiction is probably more accurate) for
hedgehogs, and usually expands to well beyond the simple act of collecting.

This part of the FAQ is intended to cover as much as I can add on where to
get involved and how to help out with wild hedgehogs.  The number of people
I've heard from who are trying to help out these little friends in need is
truly amazing and encouraging.  I hope that the tips and suggestions here,
will help others who find themselves in the position of helping a hedgehog.

------------------------------

Subject: <11.2> What hedgehog books are there?

Hedgehog popularity throughout much of Europe has exploded, and continues to
grow.  Even so, the number of good books is still relatively limited, and the
extent of research is also much less than one might expect.  The good news is
that there are excellent books out there, and that more do keep appearing.

One of the best books I've found, for a true scientific view of all types of
hedgehogs is:

       	Hedgehogs
       	by Nigel Reeve
       	ISBN 0-85661-081-X
       	T & A D Poyser Ltd.
       	24-28 Oval Road
       	London NW1 7DX

In published form, this book is probably the best source of true, scientific
information on all types of hedgehogs.  Beyond this you probably need to read
scientific papers (30 pages of references to which are at the back of this
book, which gives you some idea as to Dr. Reeve's efforts at research).
While this book does focus primarily on hedgehogs in the wild, it does
provide some very useful insights into what makes our little friends tick.  I
find myself turning more and more to this book, all the time -- especially
when someone asks me a detailed question.  Unlike many scientific books, this
one shows the author had a real interest and excitement in his chosen topic
of research, rather than limiting himself to dry phrasing, an entertaining
sense of humour and wit shows through.

The book can be hard to come by in North America (the publisher does not
import it to N.A.), but it is available through the Exclusively Hedgehogs
catalog [2.7], and the Spike and Friends Catalog [2.7].  In Europe, your
local bookseller can likely order it for you from the information, above.

For those looking for an excellent all round book on caring for hedgehogs,
and one with an absolute wealth of medical information, including homeopathic
treatments, most of which can apply to both European and African Pigmy
hedgehogs, the following book is available:

       	The Natural Hedgehog
       	by Lenni Sykes with Jane Durrant
       	ISBN 1-85675-042-6
       	Gaia Books Ltd.
	66 Charlotte St.
	London W1P 1LR

Produced by the folks at the Welsh Hedgehog Hospital (WHH) [11.4], this book
is now available in a softcover form, directly from them for a reasonable fee
(see [11.4] for contact information), and provides an excellent source for
anyone wanting to give hedgehogs a helping hand.

Katherine Long has passed along word of another book that is full of
interesting hedgehog information, although it can be somewhat hard to get in
North America.  Here is the bibliographic info:

       	Stocker, Les.  The Complete Hedgehog.  (Illus.)  128 p. 09/1994.
       	Paper.  $19.95.  ISBN 0-7011-3272-8, Chatto & Windus UK).
       	Trafalgar Square.

[The price, above, was valid as of 1997 -- Ed.]

This book concentrates on European hedgehogs, but certainly contains
relevant information on hedgehogs in general.

As a point of interest, Les Stocker is the founder of St. Tiggywinkle's
Hospital [11.4].

Another book, this time suggested by Bill Corner, is:

       	Hedgehogs, by Pat Morris.
       	Published by: Whittet Books.  1983.
       	ISBN: 0-905483-28-6

    [This] is a book by a researcher who has spent his post-doctorate
    research studying Hedgehog behavior.  Not as comprehensive as [the
    above one -- Les Stocker's], but a good read.
    -- Bill Corner

One more for good measure.  This one is a manual, likely intended for use
primarily by veterinarians, and likely refers primarily to European
hedgehogs, and is therefore almost certainly very technical in nature.

    In looking for chinchilla information, I ran across a book that has
    hedgehog health information.  Manual of Exotic Pets, written by the
    British Small Animal Veterinary Association, Kingsley House, Church
    Lane, Shurdington, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL51 5TQ.
    -- Chingur

Peter Captijn, has sent along the following (seemingly endless) list of books
on hedgehogs:  [Note: prices were valid as of approx. 1996 -- Ed.]

    all EUROPEAN (Erinaceaous europaeus), never pet-owners books:

    - The hedgehog and friends, more tales from St. Tiggywinkles
    by Les Stocker, Chatto & Windus, London, 1990, ISBN 0 7011
    3655 3, 8.99 UK pounds.

    I name this because it is NOT a hedgehog book. It's a book
    relating the work Les Stocker does in his animal care
    center. Although it has a few pages about hedgehogs, nice
    photos and nice pencil drawings, I think you should leave
    it unless you have money to burn.

    In the literature list of Shire Natural History's book on
    hedgehogs (see below) the following books are mentioned:

    - The hedgehog by M. Burton  Andre Deutsch 1969. Reprinted
    as a Corgi `Survival' paperback. Now out of print but often
    available through local libraries.

    - Hedgehogs by K. Herter, Phoenix House 1969. Now out of
    print but often available through local libraries.

    Various leaflets, books, hedgehog toys and other items are
    available from the British Hedgehog Preservation Society,
    Knowbury, Shropshire. [11.4]

    Further information on hedgehogs and other mammals is
    available from the Mammal Society Conservation Officer,
    Zoology Dept., Woodland Road, Avon BS8 1UG.

    Shire Natural History has published a condensed (24 pages)
    booklet based on P.A. Morris' and Les Stocker's work. It's very
    colorful, with lots of (very nice) photos and surprisingly
    good information, and it is CHEAP. It's probably the best
    gift for people who want to be introduced to hedgehogs:
    - The hedgehog, P.A. Morris, Shire Natural History,
    ISBN 0 85263 958 9, 1.95 UK pounds, reprinted last in 1992.
    (Would be about $2.50 without shipment.)

    - Hedgehogs by Maxwell Knight, a Sunday times book
    publication, Animals of Britain No. 3 edited by L. Harrison
    Matthews, 24 pages, 1962. Almost no information at all,
    advises to give bread and milk (for crying out loud) but has
    one nice sentence: `I do not favor keeping hedgehogs in any
    kind of cage - they are not suited to these conditions and
    seldom thrive.' He advises `semi-captivity' meaning trying
    to lure and keep them in your garden by providing suitable
    housing and conditions.

    I have more books about hedgehogs, but these are original
    GERMAN books, translated to DUTCH, and probably not
    available in English. I will list them because the FAQ is
    read all over the world.

    - Igel in Pension by Claudia Bestajovsky, Franckh'sche
    Verlagshandlung, W. Keller & Co., Stuttgart, 1975
    published in Holland as: Egel te gast, Thieme-Zutphen,
    ISBN 90 03 94990 5, 1975.  This book is about caring for
    late autumn hedgehogs who are too small to survive the winter,
    it's based on her own experience in helping 50+ hedgehogs.

    - Geliebtes Stacheltier by Christl Poduschka, Landbuch-
    Verlag GmbH, Hannover, Germany, 1972.  Published in Holland
    as: Onze eigen egel, Nijgh & Van Ditmar, Den Haag, 1974,
    ISBN 90 236 3334 2.  Tales about their garden-hedgehogs and
    quite some information about feeding and caring of them.

    - Igel als Wintergaste by Helga Fritzsche, Grafe und Unzer
    GmbH, Munchen.  Published in Holland as: Egels, Elsevier, 1981,
    ISBN 90 10 03734 7.  Very good book about the medical care
    hedgehogs need, very thorough on diseases, actually very good in
    everything. Has read Poduschka and improves on her.

Finally, while the following doesn't deal directly with live hedgehogs, it
may well be of interest to us hedgehog addicts (thanks again Katherine for
this):

    There is a book by the British Hedgehog Society Staff called
       	Prickly Poems.  (Illus.)  64p. Juv (gr 3-5) 03/1993.
       	$18.95 (ISBN 0-09-176379-7, Hutchinson UK). Trafalgar Square.

[The price, above, was valid as of 1997 -- Ed.]

------------------------------

Subject: <11.3> Is there information available on-line?

The Usenet newsgroups rec.pets, alt.fan.hedgehog, and alt.pets.hedgehogs all
carry discussions of wild, as well as pet hedgehogs (in spite of some of the
names).

In addition to the newsgroups, the main hedgehog mailing list has a number of
European members and sports frequent discussions of European hedgehogs and
helping them out.

Both an individual message version and a digest version of the list are
available.

You can join the regular (individual message version of the) hedgehog
mailing list, by sending email to the address:
    [email]

with the words ``subscribe hedgehog-mail <your email address>'' (without the
double quotes, and with your own, full, email address in place of the <your
email address>) in the body of the message (not the subject line, though
putting it there too will be harmless).

You can join the digest version of the hedgehog mailing list, by sending
email to the address:
    [email]

with the words ``set digest hedgehog-mail <your email address>'' (without the
double quotes, and with your own, full, email address in place of the <your
email address>) in the body of the message (not the subject line, though
putting it there too will be harmless).

Sending a message to the list is done by sending mail to the following
address after you are subscribed:
    [email]

For more information about the list and commands, you can send a message to:
    [email]
with the word ``help'' without the double quotes, in the body of the message.

In the event that you ever want to unsubscribe from either list, simply send
a message to the ``majordomo'' address (as if you were subscribing) but use
the words ``unsubscribe hedgehog-mail <your email address>'' (exactly like
subscribing to the regular list but using the word ``unsubscribe'') in the
text.  This will unsubscribe you from whichever version of the list you
were subscribed to.

My own European hedgehog webpage can also act as a starting point for finding
more hedgehog information:

   http://HedgehogHollow.COM/eurohhog.html

The Hedgehog Helpline is now online, and has one of the best websites I've
seen for information on all aspects of European hedgehogs.

   http://www.hedgehg.dircon.co.uk/hedgehogs

You can also reach them via email at: [email] -- my thanks to
Kay at the Hedgehog Helpline for letting me know about their web site, and
for other information.

Another contender for the best online resource, for people interested in wild
hedgehogs is the Welsh Hedgehog Hospital (WHH):

   http://www.whh.org/

These are the folks behind the book _The_Natural_Hedgehog_ and have done an
exceptional job of putting great information on all aspects of helping
hedgehogs on their web site.

Another excellent resource is the Cleveland Hedgehog Preservation Society
(CHPS) [11.4] web site at:

   http://www.doned.demon.co.uk/

This site contains an excellent overview of what to do if you encounter a
hedgehog needing assistance, among other very useful information.

------------------------------

Subject: <11.4> Wild Hedgehog Organizations

There are numerous European hedgehog organizations that strive to help out
hedgehogs, usually thanks only to volunteer help and donations.

One of the first to come into being was the British Hedgehog Preservation
Society (BHPS), run by Major Adrian Cole, information about it was sent to me
courtesy of Bill Corner, Vanessa Purvis, and Seabury Salmon:

   I thought I would let you know that here in the UK there exists a
   society called ``the British Hedgehog Preservation Society''.
   Their address - in case you want some more info! - is:
   -- Bill Corner

       	BHPS
       	Knowbury House
       	Knowbury
       	Ludlow
       	Shropshire

       	SY8 3LQ
       	UK
       	Tel: 44 1584 890801 or 890287.

Tom Weston sent around the following information about another organization
dedicated to rescuing and helping hedgehogs:

    Having looked after hedgehogs for a number of years, Janet Peto founded
    Hedgehog Welfare officially in December 1993. It is a small rescue
    centre, based in Misterton [U.K.], taking in and caring for sick, injured
    and orphaned hedgehogs. No hedgehog is ever turned away.

    The aims of Hedgehog Welfare are:

    To take in sick, injured and orphaned hedgehogs, to care for them and
    return them to the wild.

    To encourage the finders of hedgehogs to care for them wherever possible
    with full assistance from Hedgehog Welfare, including the loan of
    equipment (when available) to do so.

    To promote public awareness of the hedgehog in the wild (and of
    conservation in general) and how everyone can assist.

    To run courses which will improve the general knowledge and standards of
    care-givers and veterinary surgeons.

    If you would like to help or just know more about Hedgehog Welfare, its
    work, or its courses, please write:

       	  Janet Peto,
       	  Hedgehog Welfare,
       	  P.O. Box 1003,
       	  Misterton,
       	  Doncaster DN10 4JT
       	  England

    Janet has requested that when writing to her, could you possibly include
    a stamped return envelope, or at least something to cover the return
    cost.  This will serve to help ensure the funds that Hedgehog Welfare
    has will go to hedgehogs.

Barry Turner (who is the Newsletter Editor/WildAid) contacted me recently with
info on WildAid (formerly the SWRRC):

    I help out with the Staffordshire Wildlife Rescue and Rehabilitation
    Centre [(SWRRC) - now WildAid -- Ed.], an animal Sanctuary at Kingsley
    near Cheadle, Staffordshire, England.

    Jonathon Hodges, the Curator, takes in large numbers of rescued, sick or
    injured hogs and hoglets throughout the year.

WildAid is a U.K. registered charitable organization which looks after sick,
injured, and otherwise endangered wildlife, primarily throughout the British
Isles, as well as now helping other Sanctuaries with advice, practical
assistance and sometimes financial help.

The address for WildAid is:

       	  WildAid
       	  Sprinks - Lane Kingsley - Near Cheadle
       	  Staffordshire
       	  England        ST10 2Bx

       	  Telephone:  01538 754784
       	  Fax:        01538 756702

You can also contact them (Barry Turner) via email at:  [email]

Another group in the U.K. that looks after hedgehogs is the Cleveland
Hedgehog Preservation Society (CHPS):

    The Cleveland Hedgehog Preservation Society is a British group that
    cares for injured hedgehogs [that] then are released back into the wild.
    -- Donald Martin

Donald also passed along word that the CHPS [11.3] have a web site which
contains an excellent overview of what to do if you encounter a hedgehog
needing assistance, at:

    http://www.doned.demon.co.uk/

I have also found information on yet another hedgehog organization in the
U.K., courtesy of a post on the alt.fan.hedgehog [11.3] newsgroup by Liz
Roberts-Morgan:

    The Hedgehog Helpline is a registered charity which relies on
    sympathetic people to enable it to carry on the invaluable work
    that it does to care for hedgehogs.

    They produce an interesting booklet describing how to look out for
    hedgehogs in your garden or in the countryside.

    *Remember that Hedgehogs are wild animals and the object is to help our
    prickly friends to survive, the object is always to return him or her to
    his natural habitat if kept indoors over the Winter. They must never be
    regarded as pets and prevented from having a natural life.*

    If you are interested in a free copy of the booklet "All About
    Hedgehogs," simply send a stamped addressed envelope, large enough to
    contain an A5 sized booklet to:

       	Hedgehog Helpline
       	5 Forelandland Road,
       	Whitchurch
       	CARDIFF
       	CF4 7AR

       	http://www.hedgehg.dircon.co.uk/hedgehogs

    If you would care to make a donation also it would be put to a good
    cause. Cheques made out to Hedgehog Helpline.
    -- Liz Roberts-Morgan

Almost last, and certainly far from least (how can anything hedgehog related
be least?) is ``St. Tiggywinkle's'' Hospital.  The following information on
it was sent along by Willard B. ``Skip'' Nelson, DVM, with the phone number
coming from LeAnne and Adrian:

    I see that you are looking for Mrs Tiggywinkle's hospital in the UK.
    I have corresponded with Mr. Les Stocker, M.B.E. of the Wildlife
    Hospital Trust a.k.a. ``St. Tiggywinkle's'' and I can report that his
    address is

       	Wildlife Hospital Trust
       	Aston Road,
       	Haddenham, Aylesbury,
       	Buckinghamshire  HP17 8AF
       	United Kingdom

       	Telephone: (44) 1844 292292

Similar in nature to ``St. Tiggywinkle's'' is the Welsh Hedgehog Hospital
[11.2], [11.3].

       	The Welsh Hedgehog Hospital
       	Llanddeiniol
       	Ceredigion
       	SY23 5AR
       	United Kingdom

       	email: [email]
       	www:   http://www.whh.org/

       	Telephone (emergencies only): 01974 241381
       	fax: 01974 241237

The WWH are also the people behind the excellent book _The_Natural_Hedgehog_
which includes many accounts of their successes, and sometimes failures in
trying to save and return sick and injured hedgehogs to their homes.  Like
all such organizations, they are always looking for volunteers and for
donations (or adoptions, as they offer them), but they also do provide help
to those trying to help a hedgehog in need.

There is also a newsletter called the ``Hedgehog News'' published by the
Herts Hedgehog Helpline group in the U.K.  Here is some info on them from
John Horton:

    Hedgehog News covers the activities of our wild rescues and their life
    and times, together with advice for people who come across orphans,
    injured hogs, winter wanderers, etc.  We are now into the beginning of
    the release season for those who have over-wintered with us, the first
    being let out into the woods this week [week of March 27th].  Others
    have been moved to our newly built and `almost' hedgehog-proof holding
    pen.  In the next few weeks Herts Hedgehog Helpline will release over
    100 hogs in our area.  Anyone in the south of England and especially in
    Herts, Beds, Essex and Cambs can call us for help.  If we cannot [help]
    then there is someone in the network who can.  I can be reached on
    [email] or on my home number 01462-451618 for those in the UK.
    It is great to see hogs on the net, but remember that nets are not
    friendly to hogs!
    -- John Horton

As pointed out, you can contact John at the Herts Hedgehog Helpline at:

	Email: [email]
	Telephone:  01462-451618

Crossing over to the mainland of Europe, there is Norway's Hedgehog Fan
Club, known as ``Hedgehog Friends.''  I received the following information
from its president Sigrun Seetrevik:

       	  Pinnsvinenes Velforening
       	  c/o Sigrun Saetrevik
       	  Dalaneveien 20
       	  4015  Stavanger
       	  Norway

Cost is 50 kr. (~ $7-$8 CDN, ~ $4-$5 USD) which includes their magazine (most
of the articles are in the Norwegian language, but Sigrun indicated that they
were open to articles in English as well).  You can also try contacting him
by email at: [email]

The club is quite informal in nature, and members often get together
socially to have a good time and talk hedgehog, which belies the origins
of the club:

    The actual reason for the foundation of our organization is the
    fact that thousands of wild hedgehogs are run over by cars in the
    streets. It's really tragic to witness this. Our job should be to
    care for hedgehogs so that car drivers pay more attention. However,
    this is an almost impossible task, and therefore our ``mission'' has
    become quite ridiculous. But we won't give up!
    -- Sigrun Seetrevik

For hedgehog lovers in Sweden, I heard from Siw and Anders, who do take in
injured and sick hedgehogs, and can help with advice.  They don't have a
large organization, so please don't inundate them with questions or
hedgehogs that you can help look after yourself, but they can certainly help
out, especially if you don't know what to do and don't have anywhere to
keep convalescent hedgehogs.  You can contact them at:

       	Siw Bjorkgren
       	Dagermansgatan 6nb
       	754 28 Uppsala
       	Sweden
       	Telefone: +46-(0)18323565

In Belgium, the organization Wild Peace, based in Brussels, can provide
assistance in looking after orphaned animals such as hedgehogs.  My thanks to
Janet Willacy for letting me know about them:

       	Wild Peace
       	80 rue Buffon
       	1070 Brussels
       	Belgium
       	Tel. (32 02) 520 52 38

------------------------------

Subject: <11.5> Miscellaneous Hedgehog stuff and sources

This section covers hedgehog related topics and items that don't fit into the
previous sections.  Sources of supplies for looking after wild hedgehogs, or
other items which are not `information' or `organizations' are listed, here.
To date, this is an area that I have not had the opportunity to add much to,
as yet.

I'll try to fill in the details here over the coming months and years.  For
now, much of what goes here, is still scattered throughout other sections, so
take a look around, and you'll find some sources and resources.

One source that I have recently received information on is CJ WildBird Foods
Ltd., who, in addition to the obvious, also produce wild hedgehog food and
nest boxes.  You can contact them at:

       	CJ WildBird Foods Ltd
       	The Rea
       	Upton Magna
       	Shrewsbury SY4 4UB
       	United Kingdom

       	http://www.birdfood.co.uk/

My thanks to Stefan Hossack of CJ WildBird Foods for passing along the
information.

One caveat I do have to make, however; based on the photos of their hedgehog
food, it appears to contain sunflower seeds and as such it probably is not
suitable for smaller (e.g. African Pigmy) hedgehogs, which are quite prone to
choking on such items, though is probably fine with larger, European
hedgehogs.  You can always just remove the pieces, or crush them if you have
any concerns.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

12. *** Care and Helping ***

------------------------------

Subject: <12.1> The hedgehog calendar

No, this is not a place to get a calendar of hedgehogs!  Most hedgehogs can't
read one, anyway!  It's the hedgehog's view of the year, or rather seasons.
I should probably note that this section is written from the perspective of
people, and well, hedgehogs, living in the northern hemisphere.  For people
in places such as New Zealand, remember to read it upside down, um, er, with
the summer/winter reversed as to what the months show here.  It also refers
primarily to European hedgehogs -- climates and calendars for wild African
and other species will differ considerably.

December - March (approximately): This is the time of hibernation.
Obviously, the exact timings will depend very much on climate, and to some
extent, what food supplies were like just before hibernation.

March - April: Hedgehogs arise from hibernation and start to appear.  Most
will be very hungry, and a helping-hand dish of cat or dog food at this time
will be most welcome to get the new year off to a good start.

April - May: Mating season (for summer hoglets), or as some people call it,
the noisy season.  Great snufflefests outside your windows can occur as
hedgehogs demonstrate their amorous tendencies.

June - July: It's hoglet season.  Depending on when mating took place, the
little ones will appear roughly 35 days (32-40 days) later.  These are the
summer hoglets, and will have the best chances of survival.

July - August: The summer hoglets start leaving home at around 8 weeks of
age.  Again the timing varies, depending on when they were born, how much
food there is and a lot of other factors.

This is also the time of the second mating season.  This season is much less
defined than the earlier one, and depends more on when mothers are free of
their babies, and might be receptive again.  This carries on through
September.

September - October: The autumn hoglets are born, and many hedgehogs start to
stock up on their winter fat.  Obviously, hoglets born at this time have far
less opportunity to grow before the winter comes.

October - November: It's serious pack-on-the-fat-time for hedgehogs.
Prickly-appetites-on-paws will eat as much as they can at this time of year.
The autumn hoglets start to head out on their own in their desperate attempt
to build up enough fat and body weight to survive the coming winter.
Hedgehogs weighing less than 500-600 grams will have relatively little chance
of surviving anything but a mild winter.

December: It's time to find a den and settle in for hibernation.  This is
triggered partly because of cold weather, and also (to a somewhat lesser
extent) because of reduced hours of daylight, but it is also because with the
coming of colder temperatures, most of the food supply disappears.  Fat,
happy hedgehogs will now snuggle in until Spring.

Remember, the times shown in this calendar are very approximate.  They will
all vary considerably with climate, food supply, and many other factors.  In
years with late, or mild winters, hedgehogs can remain active into January,
which gives autumn babies a much better chance.  In years with early winters,
many hedgehogs may be caught unprepared, and may sometimes be seen up and
around in the snow, trying to find a few last tidbits of food, or a better
shelter for the winter.

And, of course, New Zealand hedgehogs have it quite a bit differently, with
summer and winter reversed.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.2> Caring for visiting hedgehogs

Many people throughout the world, especially in Europe, have the pleasure of
having native hedgehogs visit their backyards and gardens.  In many places
an almost overpowering urge exists to try and help these little visitors --
after all, in many cases, they are doing their best to rid your garden of
undesirable pests, besides they are irresistibly cute.

A quick point here -- this section is on naturally wild hedgehogs, and that
releasing pet hedgehogs into an environment, even one they could survive in,
in order to create a wild population, or just to dispose of a pet you no
longer want, is both cruel and dangerous, as well as illegal.  In other
words, simply don't do it.

You should probably be aware that there is an interesting side effect to
having visiting hedgehogs in your garden, as Peter Captijn puts it:

    European hedgehogs are known to wake up people sleeping with
    an open window, when [the hedgehogs] are mating.  I'm NOT joking:
    people usually think there are burglars around the house and call the
    police.

When it comes to providing food for visiting hedgehogs, the age old standard
of a saucer of milk is not a good idea, and can upset a hedgehog's stomach,
although I have no doubt that the hedgehogs dearly love it.  In general, the
same sorts of rules that apply to pet hedgehogs [6.2], also apply for people
wanting to feed wild hedgehogs.  The biggest difference probably being the
quantity -- European hedgehogs are MUCH larger than the African Pigmy
variety, and have larger appetites corresponding to their size (Something can
have a bigger appetite than Quiver?  I'd have to see that to believe it!).
This is especially so towards the late autumn when hedgehogs are preparing
for hibernation, or with nursing mothers.

If you are providing just some extra food for visiting hedgehogs, cat or dog
food makes a much better option than bread and milk.  It will also serve to
attract hedgehogs much more readily.  It also makes a good supplement to the
diet of a hedgehog naturally foraging to put on weight for hibernation.

For longer term care, such as a convalescing hedgehog, straight dog/cat food
is not the ideal food either, unless as Peter Captijn put it ``you find
hedgeballs thriving'':

    You can feed them any kind of slugs. European hedgehogs eat
    slugs, preferably by the kilo. I've heard and seen (in that
    order) them eating snails, but Morris believes they leave
    them [alone, given the choice of other foods].  (I'm not sure,
    but they probably need the calcium from the snail's houses.)
    Fritzsche warns about feeding weakened hedgehogs snails and
    slugs.  The snails can be infected with lungworms (Crenosoma
    striatum), which can kill a diseased hedgehog.
    -- Peter Captijn

Again from Peter is the following on feeding:

    Helga Fritzsche's recipe for hedgehog food:

        500 g meager meatloaf  (I'm not into cooking as you can tell
       	from the used words)
       	1 stroked of tablespoon lime for pets (Calcium stuff for pets)
       	1 tablespoon of linseed-oil
       	1 handful dogdinner (the hard stuff)
        1 handful oats with bearded wheat (spelt) (This comes right
       	out the dictionary.)

    Mix it and make balls from about 35 grams, put them in aluminum-
    kitchen-foil and keep them in the freezer.  She recommends
    giving food once or twice (preferably): in the morning a bit
    and in the evening more.  In the morning she gives 10 to 12
    pieces of dogfood and 6 to 8 mealworms.  (Fat ones only get
    water), in the evening one ball of 35 grams of the above, 15
    pieces of dogfood and 6 to 8 mealworms.  Everything is
    depending on the size of the hedgehog.  Keep in mind that
    European hedgehogs are bigger then African Pigmy.  She uses a
    vitamin-prep, 1 or 2 drips on the food.  All food must be on
    hedgehog temperature (at least room temperature).  By the
    way, she kills the mealworms prior to feeding so they can't
    get away.  [have you ever seen a mealworm get away from a
    hedgehog? -- Ed.]

If you can manage to tolerate handling live food enough to feed it,
most hedgehogs love to hunt a bit as suggested by Anja van der Werf:

    Please don't kill mealworms before feeding them to the animals: they
    (the hedgehogs) have a right to have fun too.

With that comes a gentle reminder that hedgehogs which are in captivity (such
as convalescing from injury or illness), do need some entertainment -- a
barren cage means a boring life for an animal that usually spends its nights
snuffling over a surprising expanse of territory.  Do your friends a favour,
and let them play.

If you are looking after a convalescent hedgehog(s), and the weather is
turning cold, don't forget to keep your little patient warm.  Going into
hibernation when not fully healed, or without adequate winter fat reserves is
likely going to be a one-way trip.  See section [12.8] for more information
on hibernation.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.3> Feeding and caring for orphan baby hedgehogs

With the number of hedgehogs killed on roads, and from other reasons, it's
not surprising that orphaned babies do occur.

If you come across baby hedgehogs wandering about on their own, during the
middle of the day, there is a good chance that they are orphans.  That said,
don't simply collect them and take them home to care for them.  Unless they
are obviously in dire straits, it's best to give them a day or possibly two
to see if mom does return.  If she hasn't within that time, you should
probably consider taking action.  Of course, if they look to be in serious
need of help, then don't wait -- if they've already been on their own for a
while, they might not have a couple of days left in them.

What you feed them depends on their age, and this will be largely a judgement
call.  If they are old enough it might be possible to feed them canned cat or
dog food (or the recipe above [12.2]).  If they are too young, take a look at
the suggestions for nursing replacements outlined below.  Basically, these
are the same formulas as used with baby African hedgehogs and will work well
for baby European hedgehogs also -- only the quantities will likely be quite
a bit greater (the 'hog' part of the name isn't there for no reason...).

Generally, the rule about avoiding or limiting cows' milk for adult hedgehogs
also applies to babies, only even more so.  Hedgehogs are lactose intolerant,
and cows' milk will likely cause diarrhea, resulting in dehydration and
further problems.

Robyn Gorton, who was studying hedgehogs in New Zealand, passed along the
following information on caring for babies.

    I find that caring for the young is simple enough as long as you have a
    good milk to feed them.  I have discovered that sheeps' milk is the
    closest in composition to hhog milk and acts as an excellent substitute
    when mixed with raw egg.  It may for the first few days cause swelling of
    the anus, but as soon as they start teething (3 weeks) you can add mashed
    banana for fibre and their problems clear up.  It's a very high protein
    diet but one must watch for a vitamin B deficiency which can be caused
    by too much raw egg.  I had my two hoglets suckling on a syringe for the
    first week and 1/2 until their teeth erupted (this takes three days for a
    full set to emerge!!) then simply start using a saucer and they will
    naturally feed from it themselves.

I've also heard of using goats' milk, similar to what Robyn suggested above,
though I trust her research as far sheeps' milk being closer to hedgehog
milk.  I do need to caution, however, about the use of raw eggs, as they can
cause problems of their own [6.2] -- this, however, may be one situation
where bending those rules is worthwhile.

What do you do if you don't have a friendly goat or sheep, or can't easily
find sheeps' or goats' milk?  Many pet stores and pet supply stores carry KMR
(Kitten Milk Replacement).  It's usually in powdered form, which makes it
handy for the small quantities you will need.

I've also heard of Esbilac (human baby formula) being used successfully, to
offer yet another option.  Anja van der Werf pointed out to me that when you
are trying to use human formula, make sure it is soya-based rather than based
on cows' milk.

One thing to watch out for in feeding baby hedgehogs, is that after each
feeding you must stimulate them to defecate and urinate, otherwise their
bladder and bowel will swell up and can even burst.  To do this, simply
stroke along their tummy towards the anus, which simulates a mother licking
and grooming her babies.  You can also do this with a warm damp tissue or
cloth.  The idea isn't to squeeze anything out, just to stimulate the baby to
do it's business.

Remember that hand raising baby hedgehogs is very difficult, and if you try
and meet with tragedy, remember that you gave them much more of a chance
than they would have had without you.  Whatever happens, don't give up and
decide that hedgehogs are bad, or that it's not worth helping hoglets -- it's
just hedgehog nature, and next time may well be nothing short of magical.

Another thing you can do for orphaned hedgehogs, is to contact one of the
organizations that provide sanctuaries or assistance (such as St.
Tiggywinkle's [11.4]).  They can often provide information or assistance, and
may even be able to provide a home for the babies.  This also goes for
injured or sick hedgehogs that you might happen across.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.4> Hedgehog housing

Most European countries are very protective about their native hedgehogs,
so this section does not refer to caging or keeping hedgehogs, but more
about providing shelter and protection for those that come to visit, or to
spend their winter's nap in your yard or garden.

Providing housing that is suitable to hedgehogs can both encourage them to
live in your area, and be frequent visitors, and it can also provide a safe
place for them to spend the winter, rather than curling up in a pile of
leaves or compost that can lead them to grief.

Here are some ideas from Peter Captijn on providing dens (see [12.4] also):

    I have two daytime-sleeping-dens under some foliage. These are
    open constructions which give protection against wind and rain.
    And they like it, I may say. Every year there are some hedgehogs
    in the garden, and sometimes, when I'm lucky, a pregnant female
    likes it so much that she decides to have her hoglets in one of
    the dens. I call it daytime-sleeping-dens but the hedgehogs
    regularly hibernate in them.

    The roof isn't attached permanently but can be removed by lifting
    it.  It fits tight by some wooden blocks. Hence I can clean it
    once a year (when it is not in use: no fresh droppings).  The
    den is made of water-resistant multiplex (without formaldehyde!),
    the roof is decked with asphalt-paper.  Untreated wood can be
    painted (use lead-free paint!) to give it a green-brownish look.
    In the left top view: in the right under corner I drill some 1 cm
    holes to let the piss drain away, but I'm not sure it's really
    needed.  Hedgehogs use these dens to sleep in and do not often
    soil them.  If they do, they choose a corner and use that always.
    I fill this den with some fresh (pet store) hay, but the hedgehog
    usually redecorates it with old leaves and such.

Peter also sent along some great drawings, which I will try to ASCIIize
and include down the road.

The British Hedgehog Preservation Society [11.4] actually produces a booklet
on making hedgehog dens, and I believe they at least used to sell hedgehog
houses at one point.

The idea behind creating a den or house is to create a well ventilated,
cave-type structure, that can be packed with leaves and grasses to create a
cozy den.  This can be partially underground, depending on what you have
available to you, such as by burying a wooden box (upside down) with a short
underground access.

For winter, it should be well insulated with plenty of leaf litter and the
like, and protected from strong winds.

The next point that comes up is where to put it.  Sticking your nice new
hedgehog house out in the middle of a well trimmed lawn is not likely to get
much prickly approval.  Dens or houses should generally go along natural
borders, which are where hedgehogs are most likely to travel.  It should also
be in a location that is not too busy -- either with human or furry traffic.

The best advice I can give, is to try and think like a hedgehog.  You're
active in the dark and you don't see terribly well, but you don't want a den
that every badger in town is going to find an easy trail to.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.5> Hedgehogizing your garden

There are a lot of things you can do to make your garden more appealing and
safer for visiting hedgehogs -- all of which will encourage them to visit.
Of course, having a bumper crop of slugs and beetles is probably number one
on the hedgehog's list, but likely somewhere below the bottom of yours!

If you want to attract hedgehogs to your garden (assuming they are native to
your area), one of the best ways (as always with hedgehogs) is bribery.  Put
out some food, preferably something like canned cat or dog food, or some
cooked eggs (scrambled supposedly works well).

Fresh water is always a good lure too, though beware of offering too much in
the way of a swimming pool without a way out (see section [12.7]).

One thing to beware of is that most pesticides are not safe for hedgehogs.
If you use a lot of pesticides on your garden, you should not be trying to
attract hedgehogs, unless the idea is to replace the pesticides with the
hedgehogs, and if so, discontinue the pesticides first.

Probably the biggest worry in this respect (pesticides) is slug bait.  If
there are hedgehogs in your area, you should not be using slug bait as it
will almost certainly find its way into a hedgehog with unpleasant and often
dire consequences for the hedgehog.  There are plenty of safe ways to deal
with slugs -- including hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.6> Wild hedgehog health

For the most part, wild hedgehogs are quite able to look after themselves,
except when they encounter humans in some form or another.  There are some
maladies that do affect wild hedgehogs -- usually as the result of stress or
injury.

One particular problem to note, occurs primarily in autumn babies.  That is
that they do not pack on enough weigh to be able to survive hiberating.
Hedgehogs need to weight at least 500-600 grams in order to have a reasonable
chance of surviving hibernation.  If you have autumn babies in your garden
that are too small to hibernate successfully, you may need to bring them
indoors for a while, and fatten them up.

Here is a reminder from Peter Captijn that as friendly as wild hedgehogs are,
they are still wild animals and certain realities apply:

    When a wild hedgehog has to be kept in house or with other
    hedgehogs, it's a good idea to get rid of the fleas and ticks [9.4]
    before you infect your clean house. Most people use cat spray, but
    ticks tend to live through that. Bathing in vermin killing stuff
    will be the solution. It can be done (preferably once) in a little
    warm water so the hedgehog can't drown. Never use sprays or
    whatever on piglets/hoglets, and never spray something in the
    eyes, you can blind the hedgehog.  Please remind: a healthy wild
    hedgehog has vermin, always!  This is natural.

Also from Peter are some pointers on various other health problems:

    Rabies: from various sources - European hedgehogs don't get
    rabies.  Whether that means they just die very quick, or that
    they are immune, I don't know.

[Editor's note: hedgehogs `can' get rabies, but due to the way they live, it
is exceptionally rare, at least as compared to other, more aggressive or
easily bitten animals]

    About lungworms, Fritzsche writes about German scientific study
    regarding lungworms by hedgehogs.  Lungworms are capsulated
    in the lungs and die.  If the hedgehog isn't healthy, this
    apparently doesn't work [fast enough?], and the hedgehog dies.
    I do have hedgehogs running free in the garden, and I hear and
    see [them] (in that order) eat snails and slugs, every day, and
    quite a lot of them.  I won't hesitate to offer a hedgehog a
    snail, but I can't estimate the involved risk (if any).

In my other readings and researches I've learned that the level of vermin
(fleas, ticks, mites, etc.) on wild hedgehogs often has a lot to do with
their living conditions, or more specifically how stressful they are.
Hedgehogs living well out in the country, with a plentiful supply of food and
water, relatively little or no pollution, or problems from human
encroachment, will have little, or not detectable vermin.  Those which are
under much more stress will have considerably higher levels of hitchhikers.

Injuries can provide an opportunity for various vermin to infest a hedgehog.
If you are helping a visiting friend out, check for ticks and even maggot
infestations where wounds or injuries might have happened.  Maggots might
need to be removed from the wound with a pair of tweezers, and the wound
thoroughly cleaned with an antiseptic solution.

Ticks should be treated with something designed to kill them.  Don't try to
simply remove them, or their mouth parts will be left attached, causing
infection and more serious problems.

I would suggest the book _The_Natural_Hedgehog_ to anyone who is planning to
try and help out hedgehogs in need.  Also, don't try to treat anything more
than minor problems without the help of a qualified veterinarian.

If all else fails, or you aren't sure what to do, get in touch with one of
the organizations listed in section [11.4] -- they will be happy to assist
you in helping a little friend.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.7> Dangers to wild hedgehogs

When it comes to protecting hedgehogs, there is usually little danger to them
in the garden, or any other truly natural habitat, from other animals or
objects, as illustrated here by Peter Captijn:

    I have two cats (females), and the garden is frequently visited
    by many others (males!), but I'm still in doubt whether I should
    protect the cats from the hedgehog, or vise versa.  The hedgehog
    usually barges through, whether there is a cat lying in its way
    or not [gee, that sounds familiar - ed.].  The only risk I probably
    have, is getting hedgehog-pests contaminated cats.  Hedgehogs aren't
    bothered easily, they have repeatedly walked over my mother's feet.

That said, there are dangers lurking in many gardens and yards, and dogs can
cause serious injuries to hedgehogs, especially young ones.  Again, here are
some words of wisdom from Peter Captijn:

    Please note that ANY PESTICIDE you'll use in your garden is bound
    to end up in your HEDGEHOG, which means in an alarming rate: NO
    HEDGEHOG!  Hedgehogs are resistant against animal poisons, not
    man-made pesticides.  Hedgehogs do not destroy gardens, they do
    not dig, they only manure it.  They (try to) keep your garden free
    of pests and bugs.

One of the worst things by way of pesticides is slug bait.  This builds up in
slugs, which are one of the hedgehogs favorite foods, and hence in the
hedgehog.  If possible, avoid the slug bait and let the hedgehogs do the
slug-removal, or if you must use it, make sure you keep hedgehogs out of your
garden.

Another, somewhat odd problem is that hedgehogs seem to compulsively crawl
into or through things (or at least try to, often becoming stuck).  This
includes cans, plastic rings from drink cans, nets, plastic yogurt or ice
cream cups, and even key-rings.  Why they feel a need to go into or through
instead of around is anyone's guess, but anything a hedgehog can get into, he
will, and if it's possible to become stuck, he will.  Keeping your garden
free of such objects will help ensure the safety of the hedgehogs that visit
you.

Also, pools and ponds present a unique problem to visiting hedgehogs.  Many
man-made pools and ponds have smooth sides, which are too slippery or steep
for a hedgehog, who has accidentally fallen in, to climb out.  One of the
easiest safeguards I have seen for this is to simply dangle a thick rope into
the water and tie the other end off to a stake.  This is usually enough for a
hedgehog to climb out with.  Hedgehogs can swim, and will follow around the
outside of the pool or pond looking for some way to get out.  The only time
they tend to drown is in cases where they get too tired searching for a
non-existent way out.  Another method some people use is to create a wooden
or cloth ramp, with one end floating in the water, and the other end safely
attached on dry land.

As a summary of dangers to hedgehogs, here is a list composed by David Mantle
of some of the hazards that face wild hedgehogs in our modern world.  I've
added a few items and annotated a few others for clarity.

    Below are just some of the hazards that wild hedgehogs in England have
    to face, as well as surviving hibernation.

    Badgers                         (one of their few natural predators)
    Barbed-wire
    Cars
    Dogs
    Empty cat food tins
    Fires (especially on Nov. 5th)  (Guy Fawkes Day - fires and fireworks)
    Four-pack ring binders          (plastic holders for drink cans)
    Garden forks
    Gin traps
    Human cruelty, kicking, stabbing etc.
    Metal fencing
    Milk cartons
    Netting
    Paint
    Pesticides
    Plastic cups
    Removed drain covers
    Slug pellets                    (poison used to kill slugs)
    Strimmers                       (weed eaters, string trimmers, etc.)
    String                          (swallowed, or simply tangled)
    Yogurt pots                     (or any other small plastic cup)

    There are just so many things that they can become trapped in.
    -- David Mantle

Hedgehogs truly possess an incredible ingenuity for turning the most mundane
of objects or situations into something with dire consequences for them.  If
there is a way they can get into trouble, they will.  If they can't get into
trouble, they will invent a way.

------------------------------

Subject: <12.8> Watching out for hibernating hedgehogs

European hedgehogs hibernate during the winter months (or cold months,
depending on where you might be located), unlike wild African Pigmy hedgehogs
who tend to do the opposite, aestivating [12.1] during the hot dry periods
[7.3].

The core hibernation months for hedgehogs, in Europe, are typically January
through March, with some hedgehogs who haven't put on enough weight in time
still staying up and around until February (usually desperately trying to add
to their winter fat so they can survive the cold).

Hibernation is a tough time for hedgehogs.  If they haven't put on enough
weight, or if it is a particularly long or cold winter, they just might not
make it.  However, even well fed hedgehogs who think they've found the ideal,
snug, warm place to survive the winter can run into modern problems, as
described by Seabury Salmon:

    About Fall time, they hibernate in piles of leaves and things at the
    bottom of the garden. The British gardener is a tidy beast and likes to
    burn the leaves. Hence, roast hedgehog.

Before you start burning your leaves, etc., give the pile a quick check in
case a friendly neighborhood hedgehog has made a winter den in the middle of
your refuse.

    European [hedgehogs] prepare for hibernation when it gets real
    cold: 7 degrees Celsius and below (about 16 degrees Fahrenheit).
    -- Peter Captijn

[Forgive me Peter, but I wish I lived with your idea of ``real cold'' -- that
sounds like a nice warm spring or autumn day! -- Ed.]

Hedgehogs will often remain curled up in hibernation until well into April.
If you discover one in a pile of leaves in your garden in the spring, you can
give him a good start to the year by putting out a pan of dog or cat food
where he will find it when he wakes up.  You may even gain a friend who will
continue to visit your garden.

I should probably point out that hedgehogs do not need to hibernate, and if
given the opportunity to not do so, they certainly will not hibernate!  It is
primarily because food is not available during the cold weather that they go
into hibernation (witness the fact that many animals don't hibernate in the
same climate).  Because of this, rest assured that you aren't doing any harm
by keeping a hedgehog from its winter's nap.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


author: Mike Yetto

subject: Re: [XNews] Top Posting News reader required.

text:
Bada bing Liliana <[email]> bada bang:

    <meh>

I do think you should change your IDtoken.  It is, at best,
presumptuous bordering on disrespectful.

Mike "I'm sure I could come up with worse" Yetto


author: Mike Dee

text:
Mike Yetto <[email]> wrote:

Ha ha ha (LOLoudly) I hadn't noticed that bit, Mike - but I am kinda
slow :-D

I just thought you were being your usual arcane self.

Well, you gotta be bowled over by that one and say W(here)TF did that
one come from! Thank God for beer!

A secret admirer, Mike?


author: Liliana

text:
Mike Yetto <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Oops! Put that down to senility. Another temp IDtoken (must remember to
remove) is in its place.


author: Jeroen Wijnands

subject: you don't need china for bulletproof hosting

text:
There's also germany... hetzner.de to be exact. Got this two weeks
ago, fired a complaint and no reaction whatsoever, not even an auto-
ack. So, apparantly they are in the bulletproof hosting business.

Date: Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 5:29 PM
Subject: Fwd: HANDY UMTS 2.0 MEGAPIXEL KAMERA 59.99€ OHNE VERTRAG!!!!!
To: [email]

hi,

You host the spammer and the advertised website
(http://handystotal.de). I'm looking forward to your notice that this
spammer's account has been terminated.

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From: [email]
Reply-To: [email]
Organization: Handystotal - Tarik Bolat
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?
HANDY_UMTS_2.0_MEGAPIXEL_KAMERA__59.99=80_OHNE_VERTRAG!!!!!?=
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:50:28 +0200

etc, etc, etc.


subject: Re: you don't need china for bulletproof hosting

text:
On Aug 7, 11:50 pm, [email] (Vernon Schryver) wrote:

Be that as it may, this wholet things smells. Spam from the same
networks as where the spamvertised site is hosted is pretty rare these
days. Spam friendly hosting by a western european company is not all
that common as it was a few years ago.
This could have been some stupid customer trying to do some
"marketing". If so it can be delt with easy enough. This inactivity is
pretty dumb I think.


text:
On Aug 8, 12:00 pm, Malleus Ipe <[email]> wrote:
Actually forces me to think for a few seconds. Thanks for the tip!


text:
On Aug 8, 9:36 pm, Fred Mobach <[email]> wrote:

Snif, sob, Fred remembers me!

/me goes all mellow and wobbly inside.

Yeah, I apprieciate those as well. Especially the small to medium
sized hosting companies had a way with those. I remember firing off a
complaint and including "please print out your AUP and slap customer
repeatedly on the head with it". Got a reply stating "too late, I've
already fed customer to the wild polar bears".

Could be me but it seems that the prize wars in the hosting business
have eradicated all sense of humor.


text:
"Jeroen Wijnands" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
There's also germany... hetzner.de to be exact. Got this two weeks
ago, fired a complaint and no reaction whatsoever, not even an auto-
ack. So, apparantly they are in the bulletproof hosting business.

along with 1+1, Schlund, and any number of others.


author: Matthias Leisi

text:
Jeroen Wijnands schrieb:

Amazing what little it takes to categorize a hoster as "bullet proof".

Just the fact that you did not receive a handwritten response does not
mean that nothing has happened.

-- Matthias


text:
On Aug 7, 9:26 pm, Matthias Leisi <[email]> wrote:

The site is still there. Nothing whatsoever has changed. How do you
know that something has happened?
What does it cost to fire off a "final warning has been issued to this
customer"?


author: Malleus Ipe

text:
Jeroen Wijnands wrote:

Jeroen,

[Als Hetzner-klant]

Hetzner usually forwards complaints to $whoever is the contact for that
particular colo/rootserver/dedicated box with the request to sort it out
ASAP.

They DO take action after $waiting_period, however.

You may want to try:

Support [squigglything] otrs2 [dottage] hetzner.[germany-thing]

How's that for a munge ?

They are tard-proof, not sure about bullet-proof ;)

K


author: Vernon Schryver

text:
In article <[email]>,
Jeroen Wijnands  <[email]> wrote:

Why do you care?  What are going to do about it?  What do you conclude
if you report prowlers to the police every week for 6 months?  Any of
the following might be true:
  1. the apparent prowlers are burglars and the police are helping
      and sharing the loot.
  2. you live in a very bad neighborhood, the apparent prowlers all
      different crooks, and the police are slowly catching them.
  3. you live in a very bad neighborhood, the apparent prowlers all
      different crooks, and the police are too busy with worse problems
      such as shootings and bombs.
  4. the apparent prowlers are your neighbors coming home from night
      jobs.
  5. something else you have not guessed.
You often cannot know which of those are true.  So if you are not a
kook, you will buy good locks for your doors and maybe put bars and
even bullet proof glass in your windows.  You might put lights outside
your house.  You might buy guns or move.  You might stop reporting the
prowlers, especially if you can see them well enough to recognize that
they are the same people.  Similarly, if you see persistent suspicious
activity associated with an organization, you will block and filter its
IP addresses.  You might stop sending abuse reports to that ISP.

In general, you will react rationally to protect your assets including
your time spent reporting suspicious activity.

Only if you are a kooky member of the Baillie Brigade will you expect
personal thank-you notes from the police about your prowler reports
or from ISPs about your network abuse reports.

Vernon Schryver    [email]


author: The Central Scrutinizer

text:
On 8/8/08 4:27 PM, in article
[email], "Jeroen
Wijnands" <[email]> wrote:

I remember those personalized notes, from back in the day when mom-and-pop
(or even "junior in the basement") webhosts and ISPs were more commonplace.
Today most of those little operations have been b0rged into big soulless
corporations.  Like most corporations, they generally have policies on who
can and cannot speak for the organization.

Only rarely is this privilege granted to abuse desk personnel or even
working system administrators.  They may be authorized to send out
boilerplate messages, or told to send nothing at all.  They almost certainly
aren't allowed to explain how they flattened a spamming customer's gonads on
a tree stump with a wooden mallet.  In fact, they're probably very
specifically warned not to say ANYTHING about customers to third parties.

There's still another issue: interacting with spam reporters is frequently
counterproductive.  The more you talk to spamfighters, the more likely it is
you're going to piss somebody off and wind up with weeks of "X IS
SPAM-FRIENDLY!!! UDP THEM NOW!!!!" Who needs the bad publicity?

In the end, there are two possible outcomes to any spam complaint:

The spam stops -- in which case no response is really necessary.

The spam continues -- in which case no response would be useful.


author: No Spam

text:
"Bar0" <[email]> wrote in message
news:KpHmk.17627$[email]...
So Scoville will have a new home for FreeSpeechStore.com when GoDaddy.com
shitcans him! He thought Shinjiru.com in Malaysia was bullet-proof...


text:
In article <[email]>,
Jeroen Wijnands  <[email]> wrote:

The most valuable clues you can have concern what you don't know.

Outsiders can't know much of anything in such cases even when the web
site disappears.  It could have been taken down or moved with or without
the knowledge, let, leave, or hindrance of the hosting service provider.
The service provider could be complicit.  Or it could be down only
temporarily to hide from the service provider or others.  Or the service
provider could have whacked it.  If it is still up, the service provider
might be cooperating with the police to catch the bad guys.  Even if the
service provider acknowledges your report, you don't know anything,
because an evil service provider will try to make you feel good
to keep you quiet or to keep you providing reports about evil stuff
that was not hidden by cloaking.  One simply cannot know, and so a
sane person will be skeptical and infer little.

Such notices are generally worth less than nothing to reporters of
abuse except those who are still, after all these years, trying to
pump up their kill counts or who are more interested in counting
coup on someone, anyone than stopping network abuse.

Sending useful acknowledgements of abuse reports costs the service
provider time and can expose it to legal problems.  If your report turns
out to be wrong, then the service provider's public (to you) claim of
evil deeds (by way of a personalized acknowledgement) can be evidence
used in court by a wrongly terminated customer.  Useless boilerplate
"Your concern is being investigated" noise costs the service provider
little and makes silly kill counters happy, but fills the mailboxes
with irritating junk of abuse reporters who actually do much good
reporting.

Reporting spam or other network abuse is like telling the police about
a prowler.  Your report might be quite valuable, but unless you are a
kooky member of the Baillie Brigade you won't expect a personal thank-you
note or even an acknowedgement from the police.  If you are a member
of the Brigade, then you are a kook and so your reports are probably
worse than useless and the police and abuse desks are probably doing
you a favor by not telling you what they think of you and your urgent
communications.

Vernon Schryver    [email]


author: Fred Mobach

text:
Vernon Schryver wrote:

[snip abuse at hetzner.de]

I know that Jeroen isn't a kooky member of the Baillie Brigade, which
knowledge might not be so valuable for you as it is for me.

And _sometimes_ abuse desk staff want to thank the people who informed
them of an abuse from their networks. I don't know how others think
about that but I do appreciate their messages.


author: Skinupman

subject: Help

text:
HI . Sometimes when I download a message its all gobblygook. Strange symbols
that I don't know the meaning of . What does this mean?
         Please help
                         Thanks


subject: Re: Help

text:
Well it sounds like it's a binaries posting.  Maybe it's a really big file?
Sometimes people have to break up the text in more than one posting.  I'm not
sure on how to fix it.  I think you have to download them all and use some
software to decode it and then it turns into a regular file or something.
Sorry I couldn't help more :(


author: Carrie

subject: Re: Help

text:
"Skinupman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:RMp7a.172$[email]...
symbols

  Maybe it's from another planet?

 LOL

  I'm just joking, I have no clue. It sounds like it might be downloading in
the wrong format or something.

  Like not as TEXT.

  Hopefully someone else will know about it and let you know.

   ~ Carrie


author: Seth Breidbart

subject: Re: E-mail list mailbombs and listserver policy

text:
In article <[email]>,
Scott Weiser  <[email]> wrote:

I suppose you'd claim I also don't have the right to go on vacation to
a place without net access.  Your unhappiness does not reduce my
rights one whit.

However, it isn't.  The forger is the cause.  However, you're too lazy
to find the forger, so you just want to spew at everybody in sight in
the hopes that somebody will makes things better for you.

I suggest you find a new dictionary and look up "originator".

Actually, were I to run mailinglists, I might well put a posting limit
on them that worked automatically.

What makes you think that I would read all the lists I might run?
Most admins don't.

Name ONE recipient who wants them.  Can't find any, huh?  I guess that
makes them extremely unsolicited.

The sender of the on-topic message can find several hundred people who
WANT to receive that message.  The copy you receive _was_ solicited
(by the forger, posing as you).

If I post a question about using cardioid microphones to record a
concert, I'm soliciting replies about that topic, not about unwanted
mailing list subscriptions or Making Money Fast.

If sending unwanted email is actionable conduct, then you're
performing it.

Then if everyone else on the list complains directly to you and your
admin about your messages, you'd find that acceptable.

Who said I know that?  All I know is that you're sending a lot of
email to a mailing list, and other members of the list have complained
about it (without specifying what it contained).

It's amazing how many things are CLEAR to you that lawyers and judges
don't seem to see the same way.

1. Are you or are you not sending unwanted email?

2. Do I or do I not believe that you _want_ the email I'm forwarding?

Or do you use the word "no" to mean "It's my turn to speak"?

I solicit only on-topic replies.  Otherwise, your claim would
legitimize spam sent to anybody who posted to Usenet.

I didn't propose to deliberately block any avenue of access you might
have, I proposed to block the single avenue you were using to spam a
mailinglist.  You could still, for instance, look up my phone number
in the whois record and phone me.  You could send me snailmail.

In the eyes of most of the people reading this, I have.

Yours are even closer.

Seth


author: Scott Weiser

text:
On 20 May 1997 16:28:16 GMT, Seth Breidbart <[email]> wrote:

No, but you do have an obligation to ensure that the list you operate
does not constitute a public or private nuisance in your absence.

No, the *list* is the cause, the forger is the instigator.  Both are
culpable.  Finding the forger is a worthy goal, but if your list were
not run irresponsibly, the forger wouldn't have the tool of abuse in
the first place, and the problem wouldn't exist.

It's your server, it's your list software, it's your subscription
list, so you are the originator.  A message sent to the "list" comes
to your server, and is distributed from there, that makes you the
originator of the message to me.

Which would not relieve you of your responsibilities to refrain from
sending unsolicited bulk email to mailbomb victims.

It's your responsibility to operate your list in a manner that does
not create a public or private nuisance, and if that means you have to
read them, that's the burden you take up when you establish the list.
If you don't want the burden, then shut down your lists.

Presumeably there is *someone* responsible for keeping track of list
traffic.

Nope, that's *unwanted*, which is different from *unsolicited*.   As I
have explained time and again, a person who voluntarily subscribes to
a mailing list automatically, by the act of subscribing, solicits the
messages sent to the list.

WANTing to receive the message has nothing to do with whether a
voluntarily subscribed person has consented to the delivery of mail
list traffic.   And the copy I received was not solicited *BY ME*,
which is required for there to be consent on my part.  That's the
nature of forgery, Seth.

You are grasping at straws here, and you're pettifogging.  You know as
well as I do that any messages sent to me resulting from a forged
subscription are unsolicited, unwanted spam, nothing more.

The content of the message is utterly irrelevant when determining the
legal obligations surrounding consent and mailing lists.

When you subscribe to a mailing list, you consent (legally speaking)
to receive messages distributed to the list from other members of the
list, *no matter what the content of the message is*.    If you
receive "off-topic" posts, your recourse is to complain to the list
manager to dissuade the offender from sending such posts, or
unsubscribing from the list which is not providing you what you wished
for.  However, YOU, as a list member, have no legal complaint that ANY
message sent to the list violates your rights in any way, because you
have previously consented to receive any and all messages sent to the
list.

I, on the other hand, have NOT consented to receiving ANY mail from
the list, of ANY kind, on-topic or off, and have every legal right to
complain to the members and operators of the list and demand that they
(all of them, individually and severally) cease and desist sending me
unsolicited email.

It's not.  Sending *unsolicited* email which constitutes a nuisance,
and unreasonably intrudes on my privacy, trespasses on my chattels and
causes me harm is, and that's what unconfirmed lists do to maibomb
victims.

My complaints are not actionable conduct, but others have a right to
complain to whomever they want.  What obligations the reciepients of
those complaints have to do anything about them is another matter.

Pettifoggery and obfuscation.

Show me a lawyer or judge that has ruled me wrong.

Irrelevant.  Unwanted is not unsolicited.

Irrelevant.  It is your responsibility to be *certain* that I do.

No.

Complaints about improper and abusive list operation are *always* on
topic, in any list, any time, by any person.

Indeed, and would do so, in the form of a lawsuit.

Really?  When was the vote taken?  I haven't seen any such evidence.
I've seen a diversity of opinion.

We'll see.

Regards,

Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!"

PGP: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A
Copyright 1997 by Scott Weiser


author: Jim Riley

text:
In article <5lsjec$[email]> Seth Breidbart wrote:

How can Scott have any hope of finding the forger?  Remember he
successfully tricked 900 bulk e-mailers into thinking that Scott
wanted their e-mail.

The Reply-To address is a clear solicitation.

The sender had a false impression that the message was universally
welcome.  Scott's reply serves to correct the sender's false impression.

Which was only effective because of the negligence of the list operator.

And people who voluntarily subscribed to the list should ignore or
respond accordingly.  I don't understand why you'd want your message
sent to people who have no interest in the subject matter, or why
you would not want to know that you are being used in a Denial of
Service attack.  Are you really this callous - all you care about
is cardioid microphones?

And you'd not investigate?

Does the IRS send unwanted smail?  You ask the wrong question.  Does
Scott have a legitimate purpose in responding to your unwanted and
unsolicited e-mail?

Scott has no way of determining what you believe.  As far as he can
determine:
(1) You are in active collusion with the subscribe forger;
(2) You have signed him up to your mailing list out of malice;
(3) You have signed him up to your mailing list because you saw a post
of his;
(4) You are indifferent to the plight of forge victims; or
(5) You are ignorant of the problem of forged subscribes;

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume its cases (4)
or (5).  If it is case (5) he is is informing you and the list members
of the problem.  If it is (4) he is informing the list members in the
hope that you will take action.

If you post to Usenet, you have a reasonable belief that the other
participants in the newsgroup are voluntary recipients of your message.
They have to go out and seek your message.  If you posted to the wrong
group or in a manner inappropriate for the newsgroup - it is reasonable
that you be informed of your action.

If you post to a negligently operated mailing list, you have a right
to be informed that there are involuntary recipients of your message -
and that your message is being jammed in their mailbox.


author: Alex

subject: XNEWS  |  Luu Tran - please fix no free disk space bug

text:
Luu,

Hope you get this.

Great software, btw.  Thanks!

Couple bugs:

1) When downloading attachments, if the disk runs out of space, the softare
simply crashes.  Not before making some 0 size files.  Please fix.
It should do the same thing as when there is no connection - just pause and
retry 1 min later.

2) When changing the score file (on read that happens after you hit save),
and have alot of groups open, it will cause memory violations which never
end.

3) Lately it sometimes sees part 1 of a multipart as a separate msg.  But
this is not horrible since par fixes that easily.

Thanks again for great software.
- Alex.


author: Blinky the Shark

subject: Re: XNEWS  |  Luu Tran - please fix no free disk space bug

text:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:12:47 +0000, Alex wrote:

Crashing isn't good; but why would you want it to retry writing to a full
disk?


author: changling

text:
Alex <[email]> wrote in news:zv5Bf.1603$ie3.1292@trndny09:

there is a setting in windows that can be set to tell
you when you are running out of disk space.

open my computer and right click on the drive and select properties.
under the quota tab is where to change disk space warning settings.


author: DC

text:
Blinky the Shark wrote:

Because Xnews will download the file (read: use bandwidth allowance) and
simply fail when writing the file.  I buy 10GB/mo and have had this
happen to me, too.  Very frustrating.

Retry is not the right solution, IMO.  What I would like is for Xnews to
pause the queue upon running out of disk space when writing the last
downloaded part of a multipart file.  At least only the last part is
lost -- instead of running out of space halfway through a 4GB DVD iso
and having Xnews continue to blindly download the remaining 2GB worth of
parts and writing a bunch of 0 byte files.


author: Edward Vielmetti

subject: INN: ME cant remalloc 131072 bytes Cannot allocate memory

text:
This is a message I'm getting from a BSDI system just before
INN up and dies.  At first I thought it was because we were
getting bombarded with super-giant articles, but after I cut the
max article size back down below 1 mb it's still persisting.

'vmstat' shows reasonable amounts of free memory.

Please respond by e-mail, since I'm guessing that the news is
starting to be backlogged.

--Ed

[email]


subject: Re: INN: ME cant remalloc 131072 bytes Cannot allocate memory

text:
Edward Vielmetti ([email]) wrote:

: Please respond by e-mail, since I'm guessing that the news is
: starting to be backlogged.

Thanks to all who replied.  this was indeed the resource limit
that Chuq's posting fixed (Owen ended up changing it just a little
differently, but the principle basically the same)

--Ed


author: Tom Limoncelli

text:
In <2c9cdc$[email]> [email] (Edward Vielmetti) writes:

I'm no good for debugging this kind of question, if you are
still having a problem with this and Rich hasn't sent you email,
ping him at [email]

Tom


author: Cor Bosman

text:
[email] (Edward Vielmetti) writes:

Check your memory limit with 'limit'
Cor


author: Chuq Von Rospach

text:
I think I can answer this one. The per-process memory limit is probably set
fairly low. I ran into this, and took me forever to figure it out. You can
look at the csh limit command. The way to tell whether it's this or not is
that inn will grow to a certain size (watch it in ps) and invariably die
when it hits that memory size.

This is a patch for how I finally fixed it. Rich got it a while back, so it
may be in 1.5 for those that need it.

[email] 58> diff -c innd.c.orig innd.c
*** innd.c.orig Wed Apr 21 13:19:49 1993
--- innd.c      Tue Nov 16 12:58:56 1993
***************
*** 25,30 ****
--- 25,34 ----
  #endif        /* defined(HAVE_SETBUFFER) */

+ /* chuq */
+ #include <sys/resource.h>
+ void ResetRlimit();
+
  BOOL          AmRoot = TRUE;
  BOOL          BufferedLogs = TRUE;
  BOOL          NNRPTracing = FALSE;
***************
*** 584,589 ****
--- 589,597 ----
      ONALLLOCFAIL(AllocationFailure);
      Version = INNVersion();

+     /* chuq */
+     ResetRlimit();
+
      /* Handle malloc debugging. */
  #if   defined(_DEBUG_MALLOC_INC)
      m.i = M_HANDLE_ABORT;
***************
*** 888,891 ****
--- 896,910 ----
      CHANreadloop();
      CleanupAndExit(1, "CHANreadloop returned");
      /* NOTREACHED */
+ }
+
+ /* chuq */
+ void ResetRlimit()
+ {
+       struct rlimit rlp;
+
+       getrlimit(RLIMIT_DATA,&rlp);
+       rlp.rlim_cur = rlp.rlim_max;
+       setrlimit(RLIMIT_DATA,&rlp);
+
  }


author: John "C"

subject: All "Caballers" are: Gay...Gay...Gay...

text:
"Rhonda Lea Kirk" <[email]> wrote in message

I haven't noticed the "Caballers" laughing lately.

I wonder why?

Number One


author: Daedalus

subject: Re: All "Caballers" are: Gay...Gay...Gay...

text:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:08:26 -0600, "John \"C\""
<[email]> wrote:

There is much laughter in my usenet now. Caballers, trolls, k00ks,
flamers and everyone else are very gay. I hope it continues!

Be well!

Jade


author: Atlas Bugged

text:
"John "C"" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

And my favorite brainstem - Sociopathic "Roger" - seems to have disappeared
altogether, by which I mean he/it's socked up with a new ID so I cannot
track it.

I have a pretty good idea where the fucker is - I can spot its style pretty
easily.

But I don't think it's been the happiest of  holidays for the various morons
that purport to associate here.

It's never going to be very good for them, as a wise man once said:

"You can't fake brains on Usenet."

But you've had a splendid year, Honest John.  And what was that you said
about only three or four decent posters here?

I'd say you're now off by about half, at least.  Hate to say I told you
so....

But then again, you are at the forefront.  Nice work.


text:
"Daedalus" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

As long as there are a few "Caballers", there will always be some
"Gayety".

Thanks for your works of "wit & wisdom",  Jade.

I remain, "Very Truly Yours",
John C.


text:
"Atlas Bugged" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
disappeared
cannot
pretty
morons
said
you

Thank You very much.

Your opinions mean a lot!

Number One


author: Mark James

subject: CFV: rec.ponds

text:
1st CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)

                     Unmoderated group rec.ponds

Newsgroups line:
rec.ponds		Pond issues:  plants, fish, design, maintenance.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 12 December 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only, contact Mark James <[email]>.  For
questions about the proposed group, contact Janette Wallis
<[email]>.

CHARTER
-------

Rec.ponds is an unmoderated newsgroup to provide a forum for the
discussion of all aspects of ponds or water gardens.

The rec.ponds newsgroup will appeal to a wide range of people
involved in both the recreational and professional aspects of establishing
and maintaining a pond or water garden.  We'll have novices to water
gardening as well as experts, the hobbyist as well as genuine botanists
and ichthyologists.  Even students wishing to find help with science
projects may decide to read rec.ponds.  All of these people will be
welcomed to share ideas, ask questions, or simply lurk and learn.

Examples of discussion topics might include:

* Building a pond/water garden:
Details will be shared regarding best materials to use, procedures for
making the pond secure, and appropriate placement of the pond.  Or, in
the case of a naturally occurring pond, what can be done to make it more
"user friendly"?  We'll have tips on building a waterfall, installing a
fountain, whether to use a filter, and how to install a biological
filter.  Also, we may give information on lighting and how to safely run
electrical lines to the pool area.

* Establishing a perfect ecosystem:
Where else can you create your own ecosystem and watch it evolve?
We'll have discussions on water quality; ratio of plant life to animal life;
plant/animal interactions, etc.

* Plant life:
We'll discuss which plants are best suited for our water gardens.  Which
plants need a lot of sunlight, which will survive in the pond over
winter, which need to be taken indoors, etc?    The rec.ponds
newsgroup will serve as a forum for discussing plant diseases and cures,
when to divide, and how to propagate our plants.   We'll also share
information on establishing an area for bog plants.

* Fish:
We'll share information on fish behavior, biology, and health.   For
example: Which fish are compatible?  What's the maximum number of fish
for the size of a pond?   What conditions should exist in the pond so
the fish will breed?  How do we protect the fry from danger and see that
they grow into healthy adults?   Which diseases are likely to affect
pond fish?   How much should we feed the fish, and how often?

* Amphibians and reptiles:
We'll discuss the biology, health, and behavior of frogs, newts,
salamanders, turtles, etc. that either come naturally to the pond or are
placed there by us.  Which ones get along?

* Other environmental concerns:
In rec.ponds, we'll discuss how to make certain the pond is
not a safety hazard for small children or pets.   How can we attract
butterflies?  Should we attract snails?   Also, how do we guard against
unwanted visitors (raccoons, cats, snakes, herons) that may prey on the
fish and/or plants in a pond?    What about the use of fertilizers or
insecticides near the pond?   Rec.ponds can be a place to
exchange information on (non-political) conservation issues.

* Miscellaneous:
Students can use rec.ponds as a place for learning more about plant and
animal life in and around water.  We may exchange information regarding
suppliers of equipment, literature regarding water garden techniques,
location of other electronic resources, etc.  (However, rec.ponds is
*not* intended as a forum for commercial transactions with respect to
sale of plants, fish, or pond equipment.)

* In the future, rec.ponds may develop FAQ's that address each of
the above topics.

RATIONALE
---------

Because most water gardeners have both plant and animal life in their
pond, discussions on development and care of ponds has previously been
split between rec.gardens, rec.aquaria, and rec.pets.herp.   There is no
newsgroup dedicated only to the interests of water gardeners.

HOW TO VOTE
-----------

You should send E-MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to:

      [email]

Just replying by E-MAIL to this message should work, assuming you are
reading this using standard newsreader software.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following statements:

      I vote YES on rec.ponds
      I vote NO on rec.ponds
      I ABSTAIN on rec.ponds
      I CANCEL my vote on rec.ponds

You may add a comment, or use other wording, but only a definite,
unconditional, unambiguous statement for or against the creation of
rec.ponds will count as a vote.

Neither ABSTAIN nor CANCEL messages are counted as votes; they serve
only to cancel any previous vote.  Abstentions are noted in the final
vote list, whereas CANCEL removes your vote from that list entirely.
(This is the only difference between the two.)

If you later change your mind you may vote again; only your last valid
vote will count.

All votes will be acknowledged by E-mail.  If you don't receive an
acknowledgment within a few days of your vote, vote again.  It is your
responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply: no more than one vote per person,
no more than one vote per account.  If you attempt multiple votes or
other vote fraud, all your votes may be canceled and your name published.

RESULT
------

The complete vote list will be posted with the vote result, including
how each person voted.  Note that Usenet votes are not done by secret
ballot.

There will then be a five-day period during which the published vote
list may be corrected and any irregularities addressed.  The
requirements for group creation are 100 more YES votes than NO votes,
and 2/3 of all counted votes being YES.