subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
New Poll Finds Stark REVErsal on Perceptions of Palin
By Jon Cohen and Jennifer Agiesta
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, October 24, 2008; 5:32 PM

While top-of-the-ticket rivals John McCain and Barack Obama both
remain broadly popular heading into their Election Day showdown,
public perceptions of Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin
have fallen dramatically since she emerged on the national political
scene at the GOP convention.

A majority of likely voters in a new Washington Post-ABC News national
poll now have unfavorable views of the Alaska governor, most still
doubt her presidential qualifications and there is an even split on
whether she "gets it," a perception that had been a key component of
her initial appeal.

Palin's addition to the GOP ticket initially helped McCain narrow the
gap with Obama on the question of which presidential hopeful "better
understands the problems of people like you," but at 18 percentage
points, the Democrat's margin on that question is now as big as it has
been all fall. Nor has Palin attracted female voters to McCain, as his
campaign had hoped.
ad_icon

Obama is up by a large margin among women, 57 to 41 percent in the new
Post-ABC tracking poll. And the senator from Illinois just about ties
McCain among white women -- 48 percent back Obama, 49 percent McCain
-- a group George W. Bush won by 11 points four years ago and one that
had shifted significantly toward the GOP this year in the wake of the
Palin pick.

In polling conducted Wednesday and Thursday evenings, following the
disclosure that the Republican National Committee used political funds
to help Palin assemble a wardrobe for the campaign, 51 percent said
they had a negative impression of her. Fewer, 46 percent said they had
a favorable view. That marks a stark turnaround from early September,
when 59 percent of likely voters held positive opinions.

The declines in Palin's ratings have been even more substantial among
the very voters Republicans aimed to woo. The percentage of white
women viewing her favorably dropped 21 points since early September,
among independent women it fell 24 points.

More broadly, the intensity of negative feelings about Palin are also
notable: 40 percent of voters have "strongly unfavorable" views, more
than double the post-convention number. Nearly half of independent
women now see her in a very negative light, a nearly three-fold
increase.

The shift in Palin's ratings come with a pronounced spike in the
percentage of voters who see her as lacking the experience it takes to
be a good president. Voters were about evenly divided on that question
a month and a half ago, but toward the end of September a clear
majority said she was not qualified. In the new poll, 58 percent said
she is insufficiently experienced.

Among a recent spate of conservative defections from McCain, one
leading Republican was particularly pointed about the impact of
Palin's professional background on his decision. Charles Fried, a
professor at Harvard Law School, and former Solicitor General under
Ronald Reagan asked that the McCain-Palin campaign remove his name
from several committees in large part because of "the choice of Sarah
Palin at a time of deep national crisis."

A Post-ABC poll earlier this week reported the Palin pick deeply
damaged voters' confidence in the types of decisions McCain would make
as president.

Perhaps more fundamentally for Palin's national political future,
though, is that voters in the new poll are evenly divided about
whether she understands their problems. Three weeks ago, 60 percent
said she did; now, it is 50 percent yes, 47 percent no.

Both Democratic and independent women are half as likely as they were
in late-September to see Palin as empathetic. Among independent women,
the percentage who view Palin as in tune with people like themselves
slipped from 73 to 50 percent.

Palin's struggle to connect deepens McCain's own deficit on the issue.
On the question of who is more empathetic, 55 percent of voters said
Obama, 37 percent McCain. And McCain picks up few of those who view
Palin as disconnected.

But the gap is smaller on overall favorability, one of the things that
buoys the GOP ticket as Election Day approaches, despite generally
negative poll numbers: 63 percent of likely voters have favorable
impressions of Obama, 55 percent of McCain. Among the crucial segment
of independent voters, the two rivals enjoy identical 58 percent
favorable ratings.

Taking the tickets together, 53 percent of voters express favorable
views of both Obama and Biden, 41 percent of both McCain and Palin.
Those numbers are very close to current vote preferences in the latest
Post-ABC tracking poll: 53 percent said they would vote Democratic if
the election were held today, 44 percent would opt for the GOP.>>


author: art

subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
-------------------------------------------------
Obama Widens Lead Over McCain Nationally and in Battlegrounds
By Christopher Stern

Oct. 25 (Bloomberg) -- <<Democrat Barack Obama widened his lead over
Republican John McCain in most national polls and surveys of key
states as the U.S. election contest heads into its final full week.

The Illinois senator was up 8 points over presidential rival McCain in
an average of 16 polls taken during the last week, according to
RealClearPolitics.com. Last week, Obama was up about 6 points.

Obama also has built leads in so-called battleground states including
Pennsylvania and Ohio and he has an edge over McCain in some states
that were Republican strongholds, such as Virginia and North Carolina.

``He had a great week,'' said Peter Brown, assistant director of the
Quinnipiac University Polling Institute in Hamden, Connecticut.
Speaking of McCain, he said, ``No one has come from this far back in
this little time.''

The Gallup Daily election tracking poll shows Obama up 5 points in its
national survey. The CBS/New York Times and ABC/Washington Post polls
put Obama up 13 points and 9 points respectively, while the latest
Newsweek poll shows Obama leading McCain by 12 points.

In North Carolina, which has voted for the Republican candidate in
nine of the last 10 elections, Obama and McCain are in a virtual dead
heat, according to a poll by Rasmussen Reports that has McCain ahead
by 2 percentage points and another by Charlotte television station
WSOC that has Obama in front by the same margin. In Virginia, four
recent polls put Obama in the lead, by an average margin of 7 points.

Midwestern States

The Illinois senator has solidified support in the upper Midwest
states of Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan that reliably voted for
Democratic presidential candidates, while tying McCain in Indiana, a
state that hasn't favored a Democratic presidential candidate since
1964.

Because of Obama's strength in states won by President George W. Bush
in 2004, McCain now must focus on a limited number of states for a
victory, said Whit Ayres, a Republican pollster based in Virginia.
``It just makes it more challenging,'' he said, comparing it to trying
to draw an inside straight in poker.

``Pennsylvania is critical,'' said Ayres, ``You've got to hold Ohio
and Florida.''

Bush won Ohio and Florida in 2004, while Pennsylvania went to Democrat
John Kerry, a senator from Massachusetts. Together, the three states
have 68 of the 270 Electoral College votes needed to win the
presidency.

Battlegrounds

Obama leads by 11 points in Pennsylvania, 7 points in Ohio and 2
points in Florida, according to the Realclearpolitics.com average of
polls in those states.

State and national polls have shown a wide range of results. For
example, the Big 10 Battleground Poll, sponsored by several Midwestern
universities, showed Obama leading by 12 points in Ohio, while a
FoxNews/Rasmussen poll found McCain ahead by 2 points.

The variation is said to be the result of different models used by
pollsters. This year, some surveys are tweaking their assumptions on
the number of new voters they expect to vote. That can have a
significant impact on polling results because first-time voters tend
favor Obama.

In addition, some states have seen significant demographic changes,
particularly Virginia, which previously has matched other Southern
states in voting patterns.

``There has been significant immigration to the state from people who
are not southerners,'' said Ayers.

This year Gallup is issuing two versions of its polls, one is called
traditional and shows a 5 percentage point national lead for Obama
among likely voters. An ``expanded poll'' conducted by Gallup assumes
a larger turnout by new voters and shows Obama leading by 7 points.>>
-------------------------------------------
Sorry, Senator. Let's Salvage What We Can.
By David Frum
Sunday, October 26, 2008; Page B01

David Frum is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute
and the author, most recently, of "Comeback: Conservatism That Can Win
Again." He served in 2001-02 as a speechwriter and special assistant
to President Bush.

<<There are many ways to lose a presidential election. John McCain is
losing in a way that threatens to take the entire Republican Party
down with him.

A year ago, the Arizona senator's team made a crucial strategic
decision. McCain would run on his (impressive) personal biography. On
policy, he'd hew mostly to conservative orthodoxy, with a few
deviations -- most notably, his support for legalization for illegal
immigrants. But this strategy wasn't yielding results in the general
election. So in August, McCain tried a bold new gambit: He would reach
out to independents and women with an exciting and unexpected vice
presidential choice.

That didn't work out so well either. Gov. Sarah Palin connected with
neither independents nor women. She did, however, ignite the
Republican base, which has come to support her passionately. And so,
in this last month, the McCain campaign has Palinized itself to make
the most of its last asset. To fire up the Republican base, the McCain
team has hit at Barack Obama as an alien, a radical and a socialist.

Sure enough, the base has responded. After months and months of wan
enthusiasm among Republicans, these last weeks have at last energized
the core of the party. But there's a downside: The very same campaign
strategy that has belatedly mobilized the Republican core has
alienated and offended the great national middle, which was the only
place where the 2008 election could have been won.

I could pile up the poll numbers here, but frankly . . . it's too
depressing. You have to go back to the Watergate era to see numbers
quite so horrible for the GOP.

McCain's awful campaign is having awful consequences down the ballot.
I spoke a little while ago to a senior Republican House member. "There
is not a safe Republican seat in the country," he warned. "I don't
mean that we're going to lose all of them. But we could lose any of
them."

In the Senate, things look, if possible, even worse.

The themes and messages that are galvanizing the crowds for Palin are
bleeding Sens. John Sununu in New Hampshire, Gordon Smith in Oregon,
Norm Coleman in Minnesota and Susan Collins in Maine. The Palin
approach might have been expected to work better in more traditionally
conservative states such as Virginia, North Carolina and Georgia, but
they have not worked well enough to compensate for the weak Republican
economic message at a moment of global financial crisis. Result: the
certain loss of John Warner's Senate seat in Virginia, the probable
loss of Elizabeth Dole's in North Carolina, an unexpectedly tough
fight for Saxby Chambliss's in Georgia -- and an apparent GOP
surrender in Colorado, where it looks as if the National Republican
Senatorial Committee has already pulled its ads from the air.

The fundraising challenge only makes things worse. The Republican
senatorial and congressional committees have badly underperformed
compared with their Democratic counterparts -- and the Republican
National Committee, which has done well, is directing its money toward
the presidential campaign, rather than to local races. (It was RNC
funds, not McCain '08 money, that paid the now-famous $150,000 for
Palin's campaign wardrobe, for example.) This is a huge mistake.

In these last days before the vote, Republicans need to face some
strategic realities. Our resources are limited, and our message is
failing. We cannot fight on all fronts. We are cannibalizing races
that we must win and probably can win in order to help a national
campaign that is almost certainly lost. In these final 10 days, our
goal should be: senators first.

A beaten party needs a base from which to recover. In 1993, our
Republican base was found in the states and the cities. We had the
governorships of California, Michigan and Wisconsin in 1993, and Rudy
Giuliani won the New York mayor's race later that year. The reform we
delivered at the state and local levels contrasted acutely with the
shambles of President Clinton's first two years -- and helped us win
both houses of Congress in 1994.

I very much doubt that we will be able to show that same kind of local
strength in 2009. The statehouses were the engine of our renewal in
the 1990s; the Senate will have to play the same role after this
defeat. That's especially true because of two unique dangers posed by
the impending Democratic victory.

I'm not suggesting that the RNC throw up its hands. But down-ballot
Republicans need to give up on the happy talk about how McCain has
Obama just where he wants him, take off their game faces and say
something like this:

"We're almost certainly looking at a Democratic White House. I can
work with a Democratic president to help this state. But we need
balance in Washington.>>


subject: Obama leads McCain by 12 points

text:
------------------------------------
Polls: Obama well ahead nationally, tied in Ohio
By The Associated Press
.............................................
NATIONAL

THE POLL: Newsweek poll, national presidential race among registered
voters nationwide.

THE NUMBERS: Barack Obama 53 percent, John McCain 40 percent.

OF INTEREST: Obama's lead is as strong among likely voters, 53-41.
Obama appears to be consolidating his support across demographic
groups, leading in every age group and among men as well as women. In
a reversal from April, when McCain led Obama among working-class
whites 53-35, the poll found Obama with 46 percent to McCain's 44
percent. The survey also found that 62 percent now say they have a
favorable view of Obama, versus 32 percent who have an unfavorable
view.

DETAILS: Conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates
International from Oct. 22-23 by telephone with 1,204 adults and 1,092
registered voters. Sampling error margin plus or minus 3.4 percentage
points for all adults and 3.6 percentage points for registered voters.

MORE: http://www.newsweek.com
.............................................
THE POLL: Ohio Newspaper Poll, presidential race in Ohio (20 electoral
votes) among likely voters.

THE NUMBERS: Barack Obama 49 percent, John McCain 46 percent.

OF INTEREST: Obama has taken the lead in a poll that in September
showed the Republican with a 6-point lead. The latest results
essentially show a deadlocked race once the margin of error is
considered. Most other polls have also shown the race extremely close.
The poll also found that 11 percent of voters might still change their
minds, while 3 percent are undecided. Obama has a big advantage among
women voters and is about even with Republican McCain among men.

DETAILS: The poll was conducted from Oct. 18-22 for the state's eight
largest daily newspapers. It involved telephone interviews with 886
likely voters in Ohio, with a margin of sampling error of plus or
minus 3.3 percentage points.>>
------------------------------------


subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
The Miami Herald > News > Political Currents > Florida & Local
Poll: Obama widening lead in Florida
A new Miami Herald poll indicates Barack Obama has taken a lead in
Florida.
The key factor: swing voters.  BY MARC CAPUTO

<<TALLAHASSEE -- Barack Obama has opened up a 49-42 percent lead over
John McCain in Florida, according to a new Miami Herald poll showing
the Democrat earns high marks on the economy and is drawing
significant support from the swing voters who decide elections in the
nation's largest swing state.

Boosting Obama: independent voters, who back him over McCain by a
57-22 percent margin -- a 38-point shift toward the Democrat since the
last poll in September. Both were conducted for The Miami Herald, St.
Petersburg Times and Bay News 9 by SEA Polling and Strategic Design
and The Polling Co.

The poll shows multiple hurdles are in McCain's way:

• He is losing in Southwest Florida, a once-reliable Republican base.
And he's ahead in only one region: conservative North Florida, by 7
percentage points.

• Obama has tied McCain among voters over 65 years old. They backed
McCain by seven more percentage points than Obama in last month's
poll, which was taken just as news of the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy
precipitated the economic crisis.

• Only 35 percent of Floridians polled say McCain demonstrated more
leadership during the crisis and has a better plan to fix it. Compare
that to the 45 percent who say Obama demonstrated better leadership
and almost half of all voters who say Obama has a better economic
plan.

FINANCIAL CRISIS

McCain's campaign in Florida and elsewhere was damaged by troubles out
of his hands, said Kellyanne Conway, a Republican who owns The Polling
Co.

She said the ''superseding events'' of the financial crisis hurt
McCain, who led by 2 percentage points last month. But, she said,
McCain's campaign made matters worse by focusing too heavily on
attacking Obama for his association with a Vietnam-era radical
terrorist.

''Trying to connect Barack Obama to Bill Ayers rather than trying to
connect McCain to the average voter on the economy has also been
dubious,'' Conway said.

Conway noted that ''Florida's still in play'' in such a politically
and financially volatile atmosphere. She said, for instance, that
seniors -- 11 percent of whom are undecided -- could start supporting
McCain again in bigger numbers. Despite Obama's 7 percentage point
edge, the race remains within the 3.5 percentage point error margin of
the poll, which surveyed 800 registered voters.

LOSING MOMENTUM

Though a Quinnipiac University poll Thursday resembled The Miami
Herald's survey, three statewide polls this week showed Obama losing
momentum in the face of McCain's renewed attack over the Democrat's
recent statement that he wants to ''spread the wealth around'' by
increasing taxes on families earning more than $250,000 yearly.

In the Miami Herald poll, McCain holds a slight edge among Hispanics,
buoyed by the strong support of Cuban Americans, who comprise about 70
percent of the Republican voter rolls in Miami-Dade County.
Evangelical voters also strongly back McCain.

Also, Obama hasn't cracked 50 percent in most polls, a reflection of
doubts about his experience, his race or Florida's right-leaning
electorate in statewide elections, pollsters say.

The growing importance of the economy and Obama's success in talking
about the issue appears to be a deciding factor in winning independent
votes, which comprise about a fifth of Florida's electorate.

Whoever wins the independent vote wins Florida. And whoever wins
Florida will likely win the White House.

Independents have grown increasingly worried about the economy, making
them more like Democrats than Republicans.

Compared to about half of all Republicans, just under two-thirds of
independents and Democrats reported experiencing big financial
troubles -- from losing a job to missing a mortgage payment. Of those
who have experienced economic duress, more than half back Obama and
about a third support McCain.

Tom Eldon, a Democrat and pollster with SEA, said Obama has used the
economy to improve his standing with nearly all types of voters. In
the case of senior citizens, he said, Obama ''pounded'' McCain in
television ads about Social Security, Medicare and healthcare. Obama
has outspent McCain 3-1 on ads in Florida.

McCain's initial response -- rapping Obama for his ties to Ayers and
the vote-registration group ACORN -- missed the mark, Eldon said,
because the attacks were geared toward firming up the Republican Party
faithful but alienated independent voters, upon whom the self-
described ''maverick'' could once rely.

''He served up red meat for his base, but he starved independents,''
Eldon said. ``McCain has run a base campaign, and it's a race right
now that is all about the independent voters.''

Also, the McCain campaign took Republican-heavy Southwest Florida for
granted, Eldon said, by not doing enough to appeal to the region's
elderly voters who have lost loads in the stock market. Meantime,
Obama opened up field offices in the Republican area to keep the
pressure on McCain -- a tactic that the Republican Conway said was an
example of Obama's nearly ''flawless'' campaign.

Conway also pointed out this ''ironic'' twist: Minorities drawn to the
polls to support the liberal candidate also strongly back the
conservative constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, according
to the poll. The poll shows the measure is 1 percentage point away
from the 60 percent threshold for passage.

The poll also shows Floridians have a more positive view of the
state's direction compared to that of the nation. And though just over
half of Floridians think the state's direction is wrong, a big
majority expect their own financial situation will improve or remain
the same over the next year.

CRIST STILL POPULAR

With such a sunny outlook, Floridians still see the job performance of
their self-described optimist of a governor, Charlie Crist, more
favorably than negatively -- a 52-43 percent split, which is a slight
improvement from the last poll despite continuing job losses in a
state where one in every 174 homes is in foreclosure.

Crist, once short-listed as a McCain running mate, kept his distance
from the campaign as its tone grew more negative. As McCain's campaign
has increased its emphasis on the economy and taxes, Crist has raised
his profile on the campaign trail.

The Republican Party of Florida has geared up its vaunted get-out-the-
vote effort, though, and so far Republicans have cast half of all
absentee ballots as of Wednesday, while Democrats have cast 55 percent
of all early votes. So far, Republican ballots outnumber Democratic
ones by 11,800 -- a number that doesn't account for the nearly 185,000
absentee and early ballots cast by independents.

Democrats like Eldon, meantime, are worried that even though Democrats
outnumber Republicans by 657,000, the party could still lose.

''McCain has done almost everything wrong and Obama has done just
about everything right,'' Eldon said. ``But I look at this like being
a fan of the Chicago Cubs. Even if we're up five games, we can still
lose.''>>


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
On 22 Okt, 17:41, art <[email]> wrote:

12 points today.


subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
http://tinyurl.com/5gmb7g

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=189136&title=project-beltway
------------------------------------
Obama lead on McCain grows to 12 points
Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:33am EDT
By Andrew Quinn

<<WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Barack Obama's lead over Republican
rival John McCain has grown to 12 points in the U.S. presidential
race, with crucial independent and women voters increasingly moving to
his side, according to a Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby poll released on
Thursday.

With less than two weeks before the November 4 election, Obama leads
McCain 52 percent to 40 percent among likely voters in the latest
three-day tracking poll, which had a margin of error of 2.9 points.

Obama has made steady gains over the last four days and has tripled
his lead on McCain in the past week of polling.

"Obama's expansion is really across the board," pollster John Zogby
said. "It seems to be among almost every demographic group."

The Illinois senator saw his lead among women -- who are expected to
play a decisive role in this election -- increase to 18 points from 16
points on Wednesday.

And independent voters, who have been the target of intense campaign
efforts by both sides, have now swung behind Obama by a 30-point
margin, 59 percent to 29 percent.

Zogby said McCain, 72, appeared to have lost the traction he won after
the third and final presidential debate last week.

"McCain can still try to turn it around, but he has to find focus,"
Zogby said, adding that economic issues, which dominated the campaign
amid turmoil in the credit, housing and financial markets, still seem
to be working in Obama's favor.

"At some point there are some issues that just overwhelm, and McCain
has been particularly weak on the economy," Zogby said in a statement.

Other recent national polls have given Obama a narrower lead, but
Zogby said he was confident in his sampling methods.

The latest poll showed a continued erosion of McCain's support even
among his "base" voters.

While Obama wins the backing of 86 percent of Democrats, only 81
percent of Republicans back the Arizona senator -- down from figures
in the low 90s immediately after the Republican national convention in
early September.

Obama holds a 6-point lead among men, 48 percent to 42 percent, while
white voters -- who had been among McCain's core support groups -- now
only back McCain by a 2-point margin.

Independent Ralph Nader and Libertarian Bob Barr held relatively
steady at 2 percent and 1 percent respectively. Three percent of
voters said they remained undecided, unchanged from Wednesday.

The rolling tracking poll surveyed 1,208 likely voters in the
presidential election. In a tracking poll, the most recent day's
results are added while the oldest day's results are dropped to
monitor changing momentum.>>


subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
On 21 Okt, 23:56, art <[email]> wrote:

10 points today, they say thanks to his grandmother Toots.


subject: Re: Obama leads McCain by 8 points

text:
On Oct 22, 3:45 am, [email] wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Obama takes 10-point lead on McCain
Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:00am EDT
By John Whitesides, Political Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Barack Obama has expanded his national
lead over Republican John McCain in the presidential race to 10
points, according to a Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby poll released on
Wednesday.

Obama leads McCain 52 percent to 42 percent among likely U.S. voters
in the latest three-day tracking poll, up from an 8-point advantage
for Obama on Tuesday. The telephone poll has a margin of error of 2.9
percentage points.

It was the third consecutive day Obama gained ground on McCain as the
two begin the final sprint to the November 4 election.

"Obama just keeps growing, he has expanded his lead among almost every
major voting group," said pollster John Zogby. "McCain seems to be out
of steam for the moment."

The 10-point lead was the first time Obama's advantage over McCain, an
Arizona senator, reached double-digits in the poll. Obama's lead had
floated between 2 and 6 points in the more than two weeks of polling
until stretching to 8 points on Tuesday.

Obama made gains with two key swing voting blocs. His advantage with
independent voters grew to a whopping 27 points from 15 points and his
edge with women voters grew to 16 points from 13.

Obama, an Illinois senator, led among all age groups and in every
income group except for the most wealthy voters. He now has the
support of 21 percent of self-described conservatives -- his best
showing with those voters.

McCain narrowly trails Obama by 2 percentage points among men and saw
his lead among whites drop to 6 points from 9 points, 50 percent to 44
percent.

The poll, taken Sunday through Tuesday, showed independent Ralph
Nader, Green Party candidate Cynthia McKinney and Libertarian Bob Barr
each registering 1 percent support.

Three percent of voters remain undecided.

The rolling tracking poll surveyed 1,208 likely voters in the
presidential election. In a tracking poll, the most recent day's
results are added while the oldest day's results are dropped to
monitor changing momentum.
-----------------------------------------------------------


subject: Caroline - I have no "first read" agreement.

text:
Caroline, I was about give you the robust reply this basically deserves, I
certainly get the impression that you are digging yourself into a progressively
deeper hole and you've dragged me down with you at this point and we now find
ourselves in deepening water.

So it's time to put this behind us. I think you saying that I "claim to have a
'first-read' agreement with a prodco or whoever" speaks for itself.

You can be quite certain that everyone else who has been browsing this
newsgroups over the past week or so will be a little confused by this
allegation and knows this isn't the case.

To be honest, your are crossing a line, I have been rude (I will get to that
later) but have never lied about you or ever suggested professional impropriety
on your part. You actually said that I was indeed "stalking" you because I
quoted from one article on google, by your own standards your above assertion
is nothing less than libel. You asked me not to respond to your posts a day
ago, but I'm sure you can appreciate why I found this "one-time exception" a
little hard to digest.

There is only one time I have made mention of "first-look" options, and my
words bear no misrepresentation.

I forwarded an ad here a week or so ago about a contest. You said it was a bad
idea as they have a first look option on all the winner's subsequent scripts,
something you repeated a number of times. I pointed out this wasn't the case,
it almost certainly applied to the winning entries only. Although I recommended
the contest to people here, trying to balance out your bluster about it being
the equivalent to "selling your soul to the devil", I went out of my way to
distance myself from it and let people make up their own minds. At least I new
what I was talking about in this case. I never claimed to have a "first read"
agreement with them, or "whoever". Nor have I in the last couple of days
somehow won the contest I categorically said I had no intentions of entering. I
don't think you are saying that I have claimed to produce for the prodco
concerned, or some other company on this group (but who knows what your
saying/thinking)  -- although other's may reach that conclusion reading this
now.

We all have more important things to worry about and can only dedicate half a
brian cell to mws etc at the best of times, so I appreciate mistakes are easy
to make (I would have thought this latest one impossible to make, but there you
go).

However, I hope you realise your assertion that I have claimed to have a deal
with a prodco as either a writer or producer could well have real-world
implications, well beyond the confines of usenet. It's obviously not true and
therefore suggests I'm either a liar, or a crook.

But the thread was Sticky Fumblings, afterall. So forget it.

I will make one last criticism, however -- you closing words, "But in actual
truth, my intent is not and has not been to try to share knowledge with you,
but is to share knowledge with anyone reading your posts who may be new enough
to the business not to be able to discern how much of you is bluster and how
little is knowledge" are more than a little rich. We have met twice -- in the
Maverick thread you contributed little but uniformed (re Infosource being
worthless etc) and misinformed (life-long option deal) bluster, claimed one of
my posts was written by someone else, and decried a 10K option on the basis
that a 6 figure spec sale would be far better.  And now this...

Had I posted here suggesting that you *lied* about pacts with prodcos only to
realise I had made an error, I would feel pretty bad about it... But let's put
this behind us. To be honest, I am far more worried about this spiralling out
of all proportions and causing you to get upset than I am anything else

For my part, I apologise for reposting from google  -- that kind of thing isn't
really acceptable on usenet, but I wasn't hunting for something to contradict
you with. There are only a handful of articles on the topic. And I apologise
for being so sharp/sarcastic with you in the contest thread. I was out of line.

And I apologise for stirring things up again here. At least we aren't bruised
and diluted by the experience. I hope not too much, anyway.


author: Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen

subject: Re: Caroline - I have no "first read" agreement.

text:
Eric, just take off your socks and go to bed.  Or at least leave me
alone.

Caroline


author: MC

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)" <[email]> wrote:

Great minds think alike.

Fools seldom differ.

Take your pick!


text:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:08:16 -0500, MC <[email]>
wrote:

   '-)


text:
That's probably why everyone's keeping so quiet, then. They must all agree with
you...

Call me a "sock" -- good strategy. I remember visting Eric's website once and
seem to recall him headlining the attachment to his script of an unknown
actress and DP, and presenting a wish list of top directors etc. alongside this

Although I found his rainbow pen post highly amusing, his one worthwhile
contribution to this group, it looks like he's on the same learning curve as
you in this respect.

Let me know when you've looked up "financier".


author: Jeff Morrison

subject: MD I-370 and DC freeway questions

text:
I've junked a May trip north (which I may not be in shape for anyway)
in order to go with my family to DC in August. I'm hoping that this
time we can take the north route (I-80 OH) there and the south route
(I-70 OH) back, seeing as though we did the other way in both '99 and
'09.

Anyway, experience has shown I'm going to have to be very judicious in
asking for detours for purposes of clinching interstates (let alone
counties), so I want to be sure I have the facts down.

I-370 MD: Now that the ICC is open, if we go from SB I-270 east, turn
south at the old I-370 turn, turn around at Shady Grove, and return to
I-270, will that be a clinch? Wikipedia says I-370 goes west of the
270 interchange and we'd have to go to the first stoplight west.

I-695 and 295 DC: Have the redesignations taken effect? Taking the
Southeast Freeway to Pennsylvania Avenue and then crossing to DC 295
to head northeast, i.e. not using the 11th Street bridge, would NOT
clinch I-695 or DC 295, correct? (This may be the best I get in this
area, as it could take all my persuasion to go to Annapolis to do
I-97.)


author: cpzilliacus

subject: Re: MD I-370 and DC freeway questions

text:
On Apr 26, 1:49 am, Jeff Morrison <[email]> wrote:

(1) Take I-370 east from I-270, past Md. 355, and follow the signs for
the Shady Grove Metro Station (it's more of an exit to the right now
that the western section of Md. 200 is open).  After you drive under
the Shady Grove Road overpass, you reach the end of I-370 at the edge
of the Metro station, where you can make a "U" turn.

(2) I-370 does not extend much past I-270 going west.  It pretty
quickly morphs into Sam Eig Highway, an un-numbered road maintained by
either the City of Gaithersburg or Montgomery County (not sure
which).  From a careful reading of the 2009 Maryland Highway Location
Reference, it appears that the Maryland State Highway Administration
considers I-370 to extend about 0.43 miles WEST of the I-270
overpass.

So if you drive west on I-370 to the first signalized intersection at
Fields Road, then you will have gone far enough west.


author: M. Hale

subject: Re: MD I-370 and DC freeway questions

text:
Jeff Morrison <[email]> wrote in news:4702105e-f6bc-419a-
[email]:

Based on the signs that are up now I-370 goes from the ICC interchange to
I-270.  There has always been a sign westbound on I-370 at the ramp for I-
270 sound that says I-370 Ends.  Now that the ICC is open eastbound on I-
370 there is a sign that says I-370 ends at MD 200 (ICC).  In the past the
east end of I-370 was at Shady Grove Road.  This was before the ICC opened.

Mike


author: Oscar Voss

subject: Re: MD I-370 and DC freeway questions

text:
"Jeff Morrison" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Right.  To clinch both I-695 and DC 295, I suggest taking the 11th Street
Bridge ("To I-295") from the eastbound Southeast Freeway onto southbound
I-295.  Then at the next exit from I-295, take the ramp toward southbound
Suitland Parkway, and immediately take the ramp back to the northbound
freeway, which quicky turns into DC 295 right after the 11th Street Bridge
exit.

I-695 will be on a new Anacostia River bridge rather than the existing ones,
but within the footprint of the existing bridges, so I think your clinch
would stand up even after the 11th Street Bridge replacement project is
finished.


author: B. Polidoro

subject: Re: MD I-370 and DC freeway questions

text:
On Apr 26, 1:49 am, Jeff Morrison <[email]> wrote:

That's correct about the west end of I-370.  The official end is where
the ramp from NB I-270 meets WB I-370.  And that is just east of the
Washingtonian Blvd overpass.

The east end isn't clear.  The last highway log still had the end at
Shady Grove Road.  But well see what is listed this summer when the
yearly log comes out.

Brian Polidoro


author: Adam

subject: Re: MD I-370 and DC freeway questions

text:
For most intents, yes the redesignations have taken effect.  DDOT has
approval from AASHTO and has requested approval from FHWA for the
change...I'm not sure if they've received it from FHWA yet, but I've
seen no indications that FHWA would deny the request.

Froggie  |  Alexandria, VA  |  http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/


author: CareerofChoice

subject: Benefits Galore!!!  Segmentation Manager

text:
Qualified candidates are invited to submit their resume by fax or e-mail,
along with a cover letter that must state the File # and the position to
which
you are applying.

Date:  February 2002

Position Title: SEGMENTATION MANAGER

Position Industries:  Direct Marketing / Loyalty Marketing / CMR / Credit
Cards /
Banks / Insurance/ Retail

Responsibilities:  Develop and maintain customer information infrastructure
including customer behaviour, response history, demographics and attitudes
to support
continuous learning and improvement.  Secure access to world-class analysis
and predictive modeling skills though partnerships with third parties and
eventual in-house skill development.  Build learning objectives and
processes into every program and test.  Supporting testing needs of the
Marketing and Sales Organization. Manage Qualitive/Quantitave research
requirements. Synthesize and share key learnings about customers and
programs across the Senior Management and Marketing Group.

Qualifications:  5 years+ related experience.  Technical database
manipulation and analytical skills. Degree.  Experience in presenting to
senior managers.  French would be a definite asset.

Location:  Ottawa, Canada

Compensation and other perks!     Based upon experience.
Relocation package is available.  Excellent Benefits!!!

Contact:
File # TP-SMAN
CareerofChoice
E-mail:  [email]

We would like to thank all candidates for their interest, but regret that
only those qualified will be contacted. However, all resumes received will
be kept on file for future positions.


subject: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
Anyone have advice on where to order some printed
checks for my personal checking acct?

My local bank is outrageous on check printing charges.


subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
[email] wrote:

My problem with most of the cheap check places is they charge
a small amount for the first order and then go up to about what
the bank charges.  I found this place http://www.promisechecks.com/
which claims they don't do that.  They are a "Christian" check
printing company and they like to talk about the checks with Bible
verses on them, but they also have plain checks with no religious
message.  The price seems good for basic no-frills checks and they
have a preview sort of function when you order to see what the checks
will look like with your info printed on them.

I've ordered both personal and business checks from them, but have
not needed to reorder yet.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.


author: Shawn Hirn

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
wrote:

Do online banking and stop using paper checks. Save a few trees and
postage cost.


author: Gini

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
<[email]> wrote
==
I cycle through the companies that have cheap new customer rates.


author: RivahCat

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:59:21 -0500, a day that will live in infamy,
stood on a soapbox and proclaimed:
:Anyone have advice on where to order some printed
:checks for my personal checking acct?
:
:My local bank is outrageous on check printing charges.
:
ORDER?!? Try printing your own!!

There are several very good check-printing programs out there, most
notably VersaCheck, which offers both personal and business check
printing. I've used it (and another, lower-priced one) for years, and
never had a check refused or not go thru.

Legally, tho, you can write a check on a table napkin with a crayon and,
if your bank will accept it, it is legal tender.

Of course, I live by my debit card and online banking with bill paying.
The only check I write much any more is for my rent, which I HAND-
DELIVER to be sure they get it on time and can't claim otherwise.


author: Gary Heston

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
In article <[email]>,
 <[email]> wrote:

I use www.checksunlimited.com and have been quite satisfied.

Gary


author: Rick

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
[email] wrote:

Personally, we've been using "Checks in the Mail" for about 8 years and
have never had any problem with them. The web address is:

www.citm.com

Rick


subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
Wal-Mart does check printing. We have been using their service for the
past couple of years and didn't have any problems.

Go to http://www.walmart.com/moneycenter and click on the link or go
directly using http://www.walmartchecks.com/


author: larry

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
Gini wrote:

Or find a bank with free checking, that gives you the checks
for free. (Washington Mutual is my fav)

-larry /dallas


subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
[email] (Gary Heston) writes:

Checks Unlimited used to be called Current Checks, the check-printing
division of the large greeting card printers.  They're okay and
have been around for a very long time.


subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
Interesting!

Can you do this thru any local Walmart store?

Or is it online only?

I'm wondering if I could place and order and pick it up
at local super Walmart to save shipping costs?


author: arkienurse

subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
I have been ordering from checks in the mail for years.  Pretty reasonable
prices, depending on what you want on the checks.  But I haven't had to
order checks in 2 years because most of my bills are paid online now.  And
my debit card at wally world and the grocery store.

http://secure.checksinthemail.com/


subject: Re: Cheap perosnla checks to order?

text:
In article <[email]>,  <[email]> wrote:

Current Checks merged with Checks Unlimited; I was buying from Current
before the merger. They've kept the service up and my favorite design
available.

Gary


author: Tess

subject: Increase in C-peptide mean anything?

text:
I had a c-peptide test taken about two years ago result was 1.6 ng/ml;
I had a c-peptide taken three weeks ago and the result was 2.4 ng/ml
(both fasting).  Is there any significance here? They were performed
by different labs-can they even be compared?

Does c-peptide fluctuate daily/yearly?

Thank you for any information you could provide.


author: matt weber

subject: Re: Increase in C-peptide mean anything?

text:
On 21 Nov 2002 10:59:13 -0800, [email] (Tess) wrote:

Fluctuates by the minute. C-peptide is the other part of the
pro-insulin molecule, so it is a surrogate for endogenously produced
insulin. It has a serum half life on the order of 15 minutes, so
depending upon current BG levels, can in fact be all over the map.

The  nominal fasting range is about .5 to 2 ng/ml, but the reality is
nothing from about .3 to 3 ng/ml is anything to get very excited
about.  The bind is a fasting C-peptide test requires about 12-15
hours of fasting. IT is usually used as a go/no-go type test.

Zero to Very low levels are indicative of type I, very high levels are
indictative of insulin resistance. Nothing in between is very
interesting.


text:
matt weber <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Also, what are normal non diabetic c-peptide levels?


author: Blash

subject: The Comforters

text:
Hello,

No matter how you look at it, basically the StockMarket and my BP are going up. A funny kind of “up” but up it is. The StockMarket is actually, once again, reaching for 13, while my BP is reaching for the ultimate and final high . . .

Here is the rub: Up is down. “What goes up must come down”.

The StockMarket and my BP are actually going down, because Obombo’s (Demoncrat’s) agenda will take the Market down and to its knees before he leaves, and, of course, my BP will eventually go ultimately down . . . Waaaaaaaay  down . . .

You do know about the number 13. . . Right?

Everything is coming apart . . . Even the mountains, and all the tectonic plates . . . So how can the Market and i resist . . .

I have a grand hero for you all. He will be of comfort to you in the coming stages of the End Times:
Ron Paul From Soup To Nuts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8XYF0LLrk
Ron Paul Gains Huge Evangelical Endorsement! ( by matlarson10) **PLS SHARE!!**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fisIrWumNw&feature=related
“Ron Paul Gains Huge Endorsement From Pennsylvania Senator!”
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gp4gXtLiw0
Pennsylvania swings . . . The Bell Of Liberty

And another:
Here is another comforter to whom you can easily relate:
Brother Nathanial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW2e0_cOBUA

This one is mine (my comforter), and has been since I was 16 and innocent, and at its premature end, will give you a little trill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQo-F_hUyrs&feature=related

This one will make it all the way through, but you may have to do it yourself, because no one can do it for you, and these type folk, singing (Mennonites), are who actually raised my children, as I was only the figurehead, relentlessly pursuing “The American Dream”, while savagely butchering and ripping a pathetic and elusive spec or two of happiness out of life; a workaholic, who worked and lusted after money, and ‘stuff’ (“for the children”), while mercilessly driving my now deceased husbands to do the same; like all good, little, working, American mothers, who never had time to get to meet their wandering children:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9oW91Iv8D8&feature=related

Bible truth will set you free John 8:32


author: [redacted]

subject: Dumb Mikey . . .

text:
On Thursday, June 21, 2012 10:44:52 AM UTC-4, Blash wrote:

Howmany 'husbands' do you have or had?And what is ur beef with mikey and lqmt?


subject: Re: The Comforters

text:
On Thursday, June 21, 2012 10:44:52 AM UTC-4, Blash wrote:

. . . tomorrow is Saturday so now we can worry away the weekend.

Are we having fun . . . yet . . . ? . . . Yup. We are stuffing our faces full of chemical cocktails and dressings and heart-stopping, fat and hormone-laden meats of all sorts and calling it a "Cook Out"; sugar and dye-soaked drinks and deserts to induce cancer; bread that is nothing more than a fungus amongus, while breathing/drinking in the Corexit and Fuck-u-shema air and water, while watching the chemtrails above us painting the sky to drop their sewage and chemical waist upon our farmers fields to feed the food we eat . . .

Bible truths will set you free John 8:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY3RkXkOXbs


author: John

subject: Re: ALLAH punishes the American Aggressors again

text:
In article <[email]>
"Roger L. Maynard" <[email]> wrote:

allah sucks dick.


author: Rev. Phylter

text:
John <[email]> said: news:EJFRUS2W37657.5916782407@Gilgamesh-
frog.org:

ALL religions suck dick, as do their believers.


author: St. Jackanapes

text:
In alt.flame.jesus.christ, John says...

Allah is a fag. Mohammed sucks off Jesus every morning.


author: Melchizedek

text:
Heeeeeeeeeeeey down under rev pp, try som uf my links.
"Rev. Phylter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns9319DD4B0EE2Ephylter297Alpha@192.168.0.4...
John <[email]> said: news:EJFRUS2W37657.5916782407@Gilgamesh-
frog.org:

ALL religions suck dick, as do their believers.


text:
"Melchizedek" <[email]> said:
news:Jyg2a.740$[email]:

Damn, forgot to set killfile expiry to "never"


author: HOACIDSUCK

subject: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Rather than wasting time and energy on trying to stop a speeding freight
train with a paper sack (that being new CID developments), focusing on the
laws that apply to governing them would be the wiser move. Get government
out of your family rooms and bed rooms!


author: Kathy

subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
"Les Thompson in CA" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the

Why suggest to readers of this newsgroup to focus on laws and in the next
sentence plead for the gov't to leave you alone? How is getting the gov't
out of our privately-owned family/bedroom different from getting the gov't
out of our privately-owned common area?

They suck - keep them here - fix them - get better CC'rs, stay out of my
family room --- whew! HOACIDSUCK - spinning in circles apparently has you
very dizzy.  Are you now attempting to tell those who do not want to live in
CIDs that they have nothing to say about it? That CIDs are to going be
bought by future consumers whether or not these future consumers want to
house themselves within CIDs? This is your definition of WISDOM?

Les, Years of hollering for government oversight of CIDs does NOT NOT NOT
equate to praying to get our
gov't out, ask your Master about these things - maybe she can clear it up
for you.

CIDs are for those who want them - not for those who do not.  Some think
CIDs/HOAs suck - BUT, some people actually like things that others find
repulsive.

Why is the simple concept of clear choice so difficult for some of you to
grasp - ?

www.consumersforhousingchoice.org


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
I agree that this country is about CHOICE.  But I feel sorry for all those
people who are currently living in these regimes who were misled, not disclosed
or outright deceived into believing they purchased something other than HOA
life.  what do we do about them?  many have been outpriced by the housing market
and can not afford to move.  There must be some protections put in place for
them - especially since many are retirees.    (And for those who believe that
HOA's make property values go up - B>S> - it has nothing to do with that)

Kathy wrote:


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
"Kathy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

freight
government

Get real!

How is getting the gov't  out of our privately-owned family/bedroom
different from getting the gov't

I didn't make that comparison, you did!

Look who's spinning!

HOACIDSUCK - spinning in circles apparently has you
in

Leave it to Kathy to read whatever it is she wants too, from others
comments!

That CIDs are to going be bought by future consumers whether or not these
future consumers want to

WHEW!
things - maybe she can clear it up

So we all follow Kathy's lead, and.....waite, hope, prey, and waite some
more, and in the meantime
forget any other avenues that don't approve with the Shell Answer Lady! Fat
Chance!

Wish I could say the same about you! According to sales stactics people sure
do like CID's

Because it's not the only choice as you seem to think it is! Some of us get
damn sick and tired of you shooting off your mouth like some damned bible
pusher, forcing your ways as being the only resolve to the CID problem. So
until you can make a fucking difference in consumer choices stop your
damnation on others that find a different approach more suitable to them.
Got it?


author: Rico

subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
There are laws that restrict the government. One of the most famous of
them is the tenth amendment.
http://www.EagleRing.com/foundations/billofrt.html


author: Les Thompson in CA

subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
THAT IS WHAT I AM, HAVE BEEN, AND WILL CONTINUE SAYING!  It also applys to
those that are buying into CIDs now that also would like a choice but don't
have it because they are priced out of the market. WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THEM?
The protection that I would like to see put in place for everyone is OVERSIGHT
BY A GOVERNMENT AGENCY!

If anyone has a different *viable* solution please post it as I for one would
be very interested.


subject: Consumer Preferences (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
<snip (too much acid)>

People buy them, because they are the only thing being built.

Pot sales statistics are lousy, because pot -- something you cannot
overdose on -- is generally illegal. Tobacco and alcohol -- both
addictive products -- are the only things Government will allow to be
legally grown or manufactured, sold, and consumed in this country. This
may be why tobacco and alcohol sales are both overwhelmingly greater
than pot sales.

You cannot make valid judgments about what people "sure do like," where
government has overruled supply and demand.

Evan McKenzie wrote in "Privatopia: Homeowner Associations and the Rise
of Residential Private Government," "Such housing developments are
concentrated in the sunbelt states, including Florida and California,
but not because of regional consumer preferences. Rather, a great deal
of new housing has been built in the sunbelt in the past few decades,
and that new housing increasingly is CID housing. In fact, CIDs are
spreading wherever residential construction is taking place."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300066384/commoninterestco/107-6118183-4822110

Are you claiming that Kathy should let people *choose* the approach(es)
that are more suitable to them? That's pretty funny!


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
HOACIDSUCK, You said one thing in one sentence and contradicted it in the
next.
After likening consumer choice to a paper bag, these were YOUR comments:

... focusing on

Focusing on getting the real government to adopt laws to govern your private
property and at the same time focusing on getting gov't out of your private
property is focusing on opposite directions.  Working against yourself shows
a lack of wisdom - you might just rip yourself apart!

Initiating change is done by taking a stand, and moving in one direction.
When you calm down, ... maybe it'll click.

Anyone else care to clear this up for HOACIDSUCK?   Perhaps the frustration
of being bound by undesirable covenants and living under a regime s/he
thinks "suck" is causing confusion in his/her mind.

Anyway -- HOACIDSUCK, best of luck with your covenants.  If you ever get
them *just right* you may wish to change your newsgroup handle.

www.consumersforhousingchoice.org


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Maybe someone should bring this to the attention of the DSA, or are they
private laws?
"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


subject:
Should We Continue Privatizing Local Government? (was: Re: CID's Are
 Here To Stay

text:
Les Thompson in CA wrote:

"There are two basic kinds of change -- incremental and paradigm. This
raises the question: Does it make sense to incrementally tweak statutes
written by and largely for the benefit of the industry to make them more
consumer-oriented, or should we instead be asking the legitimate public
policy question of whether we should continue down the road of
privatizing local government by continuing to enact more legislation on
top of an already sizable body of industry-authored statutes enacted not
necessarily to benefit voters and consumers, but to maintain and
preserve the future of the CID industry? As Evan McKenzie notes in
Privatopia, 'the rise of CID housing is a unique, ad hoc form of
privatization carrying with it significant social and policy
considerations that never have been adequately considered by government
or academics.'" http://propertyrightstexas.com/HTMLarticles\cai_1.htm


author: Evermore

subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
How can you tax the majority of Californians to pay for oversight for the
minority's contractual squabbles. You are asking for state intrusion into a
private affair. It is not mandated that you live in a CID. If my HOA is
smooth and wart free don't tax me because some malcontents down the street
decide to thwart their duties and need the government to help them get
along. More people should make use of ADR (in CA all you have to do is file
2 written complaints and a letter of demand and you are in ADR, outside the
BOD area of influence).

Your model is flawed because due process will always allow appeal, i.e. the
same courts that you say are too expensive. Both sides to the HOA issues are
extremists and take a scorched earth attitude towards any settlement and
would rather have a Pyrrhric victory rather than settle for withdrawal with
honor.

My observations have led to the opinion that the management company should
be held to a higher duty by the state, and if not be sanctioned harshly. A
lot of HOA problems could be avoided if the management company  would just
follow the rules of the CC&Rs, bylaws and Corp. Code instead of kowtowing to
the BOD majority or the tyrannical rantings of a vocal minority of the
membership.
Less government Les, not more.
"Les Thompson in CA" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
those
HOA
for
that
that)<
don't
THEM?
OVERSIGHT
would


subject: Re: Consumer Preferences (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Rico wrote:

The big question then becomes - is government/municipality  willing to give up the HOA
cash cow?  I don't think so.  I think we should try to convince them that for every HOA
lawsuit clogging the court dockets, thousands of dollars are being spent in taxes and does
nothing to fatten those coffers.  Consumer protections are necessary no matter what
product you buy.  It is amazing that in likely the largest investment we are making, there
are NONE!  Actually, I take that back - you do have to sign a disclosure statement if
someone died in the house the last 36 months - NOT THAT IS REALLY  IMPORTANT!  Who the
hell (no pun intended)  thought of that one?


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
It was a parity between CID development and the laws that govern them. How
in the hell do you interpret linking "consumer choice" to a paper bag is
beyond me.

 Get a life Kathy, nowhere in my post did I use the term "consumer choice"
or imply "consumer choice". You are so hell bent on you, that your inability
to read what is written is apparent. Do you constantly live in la-la land?
Snap out of it and sell your agenda rather than beating up on some personal
fantasy of trying to out do me. I'm not competing with you or "consumer
choice" nor do I choose too.

  Maybe the "consumer choice" cause would be furthered if you actually spent
time working on it rather than wasting your time on some silly-assed
misinterpretations of yours, posted by what you consider to be a "chump" ( I
have doorknobs on my doors). Remember, your priorities are indicative to how
you are perceived.

"Kathy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
private
private
shows
frustration


subject: Re: Should We Continue Privatizing Local Government? (was: Re: CID's Are  Here To Stay

text:
"There are two basic kinds of change -- incremental and paradigm. How did
you figure paradigm as a basic kind of change? Para -root meaning, beside as
in paradigm; paragraph. Paradigm doesn't describe change, it could describe
that which will change.

"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
those
HOA
housing
place for
believe that
that)<
to
don't
THEM?
OVERSIGHT
would


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Evermore wrote:

State intrusion is to be blamed for the whole HOA CID fiasco to begin with  -
from HUD down to the municipalities.  If you really want less government - then
scrap the Civil Codes!  Scrap the ADR requirement!  Scrap Corporate code and
truly let the people handel their own squabbles.

ADR is nothing but a "$4,000 dance with debt"!


subject: Misinformation (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
IP Evermore wrote:

I wonder what percent of taxes benefit all taxpayers. I know one thing.
CID taxpayers are doing more than their fair share.

And "sooner or later, [CID] owners will realize that local and state
governments are balancing their budgets on the backs of CID residents.
That could open up a full public policy debate over the role of CIDs
that should have happened 20 years ago." -- Author Evan McKenzie
"Things to Come: What does the future hold for community associations."

http://www.uchastings.edu/plri/96-97tex/cidhome.htm

You mean that squabbling possibly 47%
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04964.html
of the 7-8 million California CID serfs? Possibly 3-4 million people?
Golly! Your majority-minority argument holds little water with me. Less
than six million Jews were put to their death in Nazi Germany, yet I
heard the majority of Germans was satisfied with that (although I find
that hard to believe, unless they weren't aware of what was going on
http://loan.yahoo.com/m/ten.sm.html#secretive
http://loan.yahoo.com/m/ten.sm.html#meetings ) -- but even if they were,
does that make it right what those Nazis did to these people?

Ramona Ripston was the Executive Director of the American Civil
Liberties Union Foundation of Southern California, one of the largest
ACLU affiliates in the nation. She wrote, ï¿½The historical reality is
that the people who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights
recognized that one of the most important objectives of any American
government would have to be limiting the ability of a majority to impose
tyranny on all.ï¿½ http://www.pbs.org/wnet/federalist/opinion-prop.html

Homeowners associations have no such limitations on the ability of a
majority or MINUSCULE *MINORITY* to impose tyranny on all, yet 7-8
million Californians live in them.

Should Majority Rule Prevail in the HOA?
http://starman.com/HOA/majority.htm

Private Contract
http://starman.com/HOA/hoabill2.htm

The Contract Theory
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04877.html

Adhesion Contract
http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=2325&bold=||||

It is for me. In my area, there are nothing but CIDs. My only other
choice http://www.consumersforhousingchoice.org/ is an apartment.

Sorry, but you even have to pay taxes to support schools, whether or not
you have kids. You have to pay taxes that support the USA's military
forays into other countries, even if you don't support these excursions.
You have to pay taxes that support Medicare, even if you have a fatal
disease that's about to take your life. You have to pay taxes that
support the state disability program, even if you will never become
disabled. You have to pay taxes that pay for roads, even if you don't
drive -- and you have to pay taxes that subsidize the mass transit
system, even if you don't ride the bus or train.

Are there malcontents down the street from you? What duties are they
thwarting? Aren't they as committed to the CID concept as you are?
http://starman.com/HOA/alexander.htm Sounds like there are warts in your
CID.

I disagree.
"How Do These People Sleep at Night?"
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/Media/ma_%20AHRC081500.html

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of
law" http://www.EagleRing.com/foundations/billofrt.html

Everybody is saying that the court system is too expensive a remedy for
most abused CID homeowners:

Florida:

<<  ï¿½ Over 90% of Florida's Homeowners' Association members can't afford
to enforce their legal rights in the Florida courts.

Abusive and mismanaged HOAs thrive in Florida because HOA members are
severely politically, financially and legally disadvantaged when
attempting to enforce their legal rights against the abusive and
mismanaged HOA.  >> http://fcam.tripod.com/

California:

"California Pro-CAI Judge Hits Elizabeth McMahan With $92,000 Fee"
http://www.propertyrightstexas.com/PressRelease/California%20Pro%20CIA%20Judge.htm

Pennsylvania:

"$46,000 Fee to Collect $500 Legal Bill?"
http://www.callaw.com/stories/edt0228j.html

Texas:

"I am specifically speaking of my case where I have had to spend over
$80,000 defending myself against CAI-Chubb lawyers who use HB2152, WHICH
THEY AUTHORED AND PUSHED THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE. Judge Pat Mizell says
that the actions of the CAI controlled Board of Northglen, has been
"improper" since l994. He DENIED their huge "legal fees" That is good
but I have had to defended myself against the law, passed by the state,
signed by George Bush, which is "improper" yet I am out $80,000 for my
lawyers."
http://propertyrightstexas.com/PressRelease/Houston%20Realtors%207.10.htm

That's a bald-faced lie! You have not supported your outrageous
allegations with ANYTHING! CID homeowners are *victims* of scorched
earth litigation perpetrated by vicious, power tripping board members
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/News/keyreports/kr_gangster.html (that often
have personal agendas or that are waging personal vendettas) -- whose
risk is spread among *all* of the homeowners -- and the BOD's vendor
soldiers, that make money this way. It's those that run associations
like miniature city halls, or as their own private mini fiefdoms -- or
as if the associations belonged to them -- that "take a scorched earth
attitude towards any settlement."

I agree. Property managers should be regulated, and *not* by themselves.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=McMahon&num=25&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=938075314&ic=1

"There are two basic kinds of change -- incremental and paradigm. This
raises the question: Does it make sense to incrementally tweak statutes
written by and largely for the benefit of the industry to make them more
consumer-oriented, or should we instead be asking the legitimate public
policy question of whether we should continue down the road of
privatizing local government by continuing to enact more legislation on
top of an already sizable body of industry-authored statutes enacted not
necessarily to benefit voters and consumers, but to maintain and
preserve the future of the CID industry? As Evan McKenzie notes in
Privatopia, 'the rise of CID housing is a unique, ad hoc form of
privatization carrying with it significant social and policy
considerations that never have been adequately considered by government
or academics.'" http://propertyrightstexas.com/HTMLarticles\cai_1.htm


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
A self-funded oversight committee. Funded by an annual pro-rated HOA fee.
"Evermore" <[email]> wrote in message
news:E3dm6.10001$[email]...
a
file
the
the
are
with
to
housing
place
believe
to


subject:
Representation? (was: Re: Consumer Preferences (was: Re: CID's Are Here
 To Stay

text:
"P.Flamingo" wrote:

If not, then they are *not* representing the people. Government is *not*
supposed to represent government.

"Sooner or later, [CID] owners will realize that local and state
governments are balancing their budgets on the backs of CID residents.
That could open up a full public policy debate over the role of CIDs
that should have happened 20 years ago." -- Evan McKenzie, author of
"Privatopia: Homeowners Associations and the Rise of Residential Private
Government"
http://www.uchastings.edu/plri/96-97tex/cidhome.htm

The PEOPLE have not authorized Government to override free market
forces, and mandate CIDs to the exclusion of non-CID housing. Cuban
cigars are an international relations matter; pot is bad for you. How do
you rationalize taking away housing choice?
http://www.consumersforhousingchoice.org/

Do they care?
http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/expn.asp?ID=1021273&SORT=5&ELECTION=2000G

Do we really have to coerce and bribe
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAISLA/message/122 our representatives the
way CAI does http://www.caionline.org/govt/caipac.cfm to get our
representatives to represent us?
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/Media/ma_%20AHRC082100.html

and homebuyers are legally entitled to them.
http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=158&bold=||||
http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=323&bold=||||

What's even more amazing, is that the California state government, under
the guise of the Industry-infiltrated
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04920.html
California Law Revision Commission,
ftp://clrc.ca.gov/pub/Study-H-RealProperty/H850-CommonInterestDevel is
very quietly pushing for California to adopt UCIOA
http://www.law.upenn.edu/bll/ulc/fnact99/1990s/ucioa94.htm . This is CID
industry legislation written to benefit them at our expense! It is
*devoid* of consumer protection.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Still+Looking&num=25&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=929073236&ic=1
CAI is coercing and bribing their -- I mean, our -- state legislators to
adopt it.

The CLRC is also stating that its study that will take years. (The CID
industry is buying time.)

"Itï¿½s time for the laws to be changed. Itï¿½s time to provide protection
for homeowners by removing the private government HOAs and restore civil
liberties by means of a homeowner's bill of rights. TODAY, not tomorrow,
not next year. TODAY!" http://starman.com/HOA/alexander.htm

CA legislators are getting inundated with complaints from abused CID
homeowners and are keeping very quiet about it. NV State Senator Mike
Schneider and "We've-got-to-go-slowly" AZ legislator Tom Freestone admit
it. Sen. Armbrister in TX is pretty vocal, too.

What's the problem with California legislators?

What are they doing?? Keeping associations from prohibiting HOA serfs
from having at least one pet?? Sen. Debra Bowen, D-Marina Del Rey,
called the pro-pet measure "probably the most important property rights
bill of the year."
http://www.capitolalert.com/news/old/capalert02_20000823.html That's
pathetic.

Ask your legislators what they're doing!
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/Contact/contact.html

"How many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?"
http://webhome.idirect.com/~muskokajoe/lyric/blowininthewind.html
"How many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
http://www.propertyrightsnc.com/CAI_Farce.htm
How many deaths will it take 'til we know
That too many people have died?"
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/eulogy.html
Peter, Paul and Mary ("Blowin in the Wind")

Yeah, some disclosure.
http://starman.com/HOA/defaultq.asp#Buyer Rights
http://www.cicproject.org/model.html

<< Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
http://www.uwm.edu/~kl/throwst.htm
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky, brush in some clouds and sea
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace, is the human face.
But afraid, we may our home to waste.
There's a fear down here we can't forget hasn't got a name just yet
http://members.home.net/concernedhomeowners/
Always awake, always around ...
But the darkness never goes from some men's eyes.
http://prodclmtrans.ss.ca.gov/claims/plsql/P_Get_Lobbyist_Details?FilerIdParIn=1148331
...
Commissars and pin-striped bosses role the dice
http://www.caionline.org/ccal/roster.cfm http://www.clac.org/5.htm
Any way they fall guess who gets to pay the price.
Money green...
Heartless powers try to tell us what to think
http://www.a-k.com/newsletterwinter99.html#article2
If the spirit's sleeping, then the flesh is ink.
http://propertyrightstexas.com/HTMLarticles/toliveinpeace.htm
History's page, it is thusly carved in stone
The future's here, we are it, we are on our own.
If the game is lost then we're all the same
No one left to place or take the blame.
We will leave this place an empty stone
Or this shinning ball of bule we can call our home
...
Singing "I got mine and you got yours."
...
And the radical he rant and rage, Singing "someone got to turn the page"
And the rich man in his summer home,
Singing "Just leave well enough alone"
But his pants are down, his cover's blown
And the politicians are throwing stones
So the kids they dance they shake their bones
Cause its all too clear we're on our own
Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. >>
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/Billrights/bill.html

The Grateful Dead ("Throwing Stones")

<snip>

Cc and Bcc: Selected Legislators
            Selected Reporters


text: You said it!  I must ask why you have changed your mind about oversight?


subject: Re: More Laws or Less Laws? (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Just because Kathy said I linked consumer choice to a paper bag in her own
twisted way, doesn't necessarily mean I did. Go back to my original post and
read it.

Such a tough post to understand, wasn't it?

Like minds???

"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the
private
private
shows
direction.


subject:
A New Paradigm for the Governance of Common Interest Developments (was:
 Re: Should We Continue Privatizing Local Government? (was: Re: CID's
 Are  Here To Stay

text:
HOACIDSUCK wrote:

I didn't write the passage. If you'd clicked on the link, you'd have
known that.

For more information, read:

"Reflections on a New Paradigm for the Governance of Common Interest
Developments" (Evan McKensie's chapter from "Putting Community First")
https://www.caisecure.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CAI&Product_Code=1435&Category_Code=BB


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Get away from these ridiculous CC&R mandates, statutes, requirements, conditions, interpretations, misconceptions, malice, articles, and governance. Adopt Maintenance Contracts as an alternative. It's your membership club might as well run it like it yours.
  "P.Flamingo" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...

  Evermore wrote:

    How can you tax the majority of Californians to pay for oversight for the
    minority's contractual squabbles. You are asking for state intrusion into a
    private affair.
  State intrusion is to be blamed for the whole HOA CID fiasco to begin with  - from HUD down to the municipalities.  If you really want less government - then scrap the Civil Codes!  Scrap the ADR requirement!  Scrap Corporate code and truly let the people handel their own squabbles.
    It is not mandated that you live in a CID. If my HOA is
    smooth and wart free don't tax me because some malcontents down the street
    decide to thwart their duties and need the government to help them get
    along. More people should make use of ADR (in CA all you have to do is file
    2 written complaints and a letter of demand and you are in ADR, outside the
    BOD area of influence).
  ADR is nothing but a "$4,000 dance with debt"!

    Your model is flawed because due process will always allow appeal, i.e. the
    same courts that you say are too expensive. Both sides to the HOA issues are
    extremists and take a scorched earth attitude towards any settlement and
    would rather have a Pyrrhric victory rather than settle for withdrawal with
    honor.

    My observations have led to the opinion that the management company should
    be held to a higher duty by the state, and if not be sanctioned harshly. A
    lot of HOA problems could be avoided if the management company  would just
    follow the rules of the CC&Rs, bylaws and Corp. Code instead of kowtowing to
    the BOD majority or the tyrannical rantings of a vocal minority of the
    membership.
    Less government Les, not more.
    "Les Thompson in CA" <[email]> wrote in message
    news:[email]...
    those
    HOA
    for
    that
    that)<
    don't
    THEM?
    OVERSIGHT
    would


subject: Re: Misinformation (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
We fight to uphold minority rights in this country everyday.  That is what makes the US of A
unique.  Unfortunately, we are quickly losing sight of what it is that makes this country great -
Welcome to USA, Inc.

Rico wrote:


text:
Check the Constitution for "Freedom to Contract", that means make your own
agreements w/o the nanny of government stepping in to see that you don't
have buyers remorse.
"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04964.ht
ml
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04877.ht
ml
(in
demand
http://www.propertyrightstexas.com/PressRelease/California%20Pro%20CIA%20Jud
ge.htm
with
should
A
just
kowtowing to
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=McMahon&num=25&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&s
eld=938075314&ic=1
than
housing
place
believe
applys to
one


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
Like I said, don,t  make me pay for the incompetence of others i.e. cheaper
life insurance for  non-smokers.
"HOACIDSUCK" <[email]> wrote in message
news:J0em6.1007$[email]...
the
into
street
should
A
just
kowtowing
than
applys
one


subject: Free Property Tax Windfall (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
HOACIDSUCK wrote:

I disagree. I already pay taxes. "Local and state governments are
balancing their budgets on the backs of CID residents." -- Author Evan
McKenzie, "Things to Come: What does the future hold for community
associations."

"CID Homeowners' Fees and the Issue of Double Taxation"
http://www.uchastings.edu/plri/96-97tex/cidhome.htm

"There is a serious property tax discrimination, because you put
infra-structure costs plus property tax and others only pay one property
tax.

"Thus citizens in a HOA are not given equal treatment.

"Last, but not least, [HOAs] do not comply with the mutual benefit
statutes - and any other corporation would be closed down for failure to
comply - so the state is allowing rogue corporations to violate state
law just because of the free property tax windfall." -- Willow Vance
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/Media/ma_Reg091200_Bob.html

The government can take the money out of "the free property tax
windfall."
<snip>


text:
HOACIDSUCK wrote:

Show me where I claimed you did.

I did.
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04892.html

Actually, the question of whether you can push for homeowner-friendly
legislation, while simultaneously advocating the ouster of Government
from our family rooms and bed rooms, is complicated. The
morally-bankrupt Industry, however, writes and sponsors legislation that
modifies and controls our "private contracts" while claiming that
Government shouldn't interfere in private contracts all the time.

I never wrote that term. That's from a welcome letter of a Yahoo! Group
I didn't write.

If you can't show me where I said you linked consumer choice to a paper
bag, then we are not of like minds.


subject: Re: A New Paradigm for the Governance of Common Interest Developments (was:  Re: Should We Continue Privatizing Local Government? (was: Re: CID's  Are  Here To Stay

text:
Ok, I'm cool. But this wasn't the link you posted.
https://www.caisecure.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CAI&P
roduct_Code=1435&Category_Code=BB

This was the link you posted
http://propertyrightstexas.com/HTMLarticles/cai_1.htm
"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
did
beside as
describe
https://www.caisecure.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CAI&P
roduct_Code=1435&Category_Code=BB
all
not
than
applys
but
ABOUT
one
statutes
more
public
on
not
government


subject: Limiting HOA Powers (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
HOA powers should be limited to those they need, like the power to
maintain common areas.


text:
You have rights based on what the constitution gives you, and one of those
rights is to contract with others i.e. waive certain rights in return for a
specified consideration.
"P.Flamingo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
We fight to uphold minority rights in this country everyday.  That is what
makes the US of A unique.  Unfortunately, we are quickly losing sight of
what it is that makes this country great - Welcome to USA, Inc.
Rico wrote:
IP Evermore wrote:
I wonder what percent of taxes benefit all taxpayers. I know one thing.
CID taxpayers are doing more than their fair share.
And "sooner or later, [CID] owners will realize that local and state
governments are balancing their budgets on the backs of CID residents.
That could open up a full public policy debate over the role of CIDs
that should have happened 20 years ago." -- Author Evan McKenzie
"Things to Come: What does the future hold for community associations."
http://www.uchastings.edu/plri/96-97tex/cidhome.htm
You mean that squabbling possibly 47%
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04964.ht
ml
of the 7-8 million California CID serfs? Possibly 3-4 million people?
Golly! Your majority-minority argument holds little water with me. Less
than six million Jews were put to their death in Nazi Germany, yet I
heard the majority of Germans was satisfied with that (although I find
that hard to believe, unless they weren't aware of what was going on
http://loan.yahoo.com/m/ten.sm.html#secretive
http://loan.yahoo.com/m/ten.sm.html#meetings ) -- but even if they were,
does that make it right what those Nazis did to these people?
Ramona Ripston was the Executive Director of the American Civil
Liberties Union Foundation of Southern California, one of the largest
ACLU affiliates in the nation. She wrote, "The historical reality is
that the people who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights
recognized that one of the most important objectives of any American
government would have to be limiting the ability of a majority to impose
tyranny on all." http://www.pbs.org/wnet/federalist/opinion-prop.html
Homeowners associations have no such limitations on the ability of a
majority or MINUSCULE *MINORITY* to impose tyranny on all, yet 7-8
million Californians live in them.
Should Majority Rule Prevail in the HOA?
http://starman.com/HOA/majority.htm
Private Contract
http://starman.com/HOA/hoabill2.htm
The Contract Theory
http://www.mailgate.org/misc/misc.consumers.house.homeowner-assn/msg04877.ht
ml
Adhesion Contract
http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=2325&bold=||||
It is for me. In my area, there are nothing but CIDs. My only other
choice http://www.consumersforhousingchoice.org/ is an apartment.
Sorry, but you even have to pay taxes to support schools, whether or not
you have kids. You have to pay taxes that support the USA's military
forays into other countries, even if you don't support these excursions.
You have to pay taxes that support Medicare, even if you have a fatal
disease that's about to take your life. You have to pay taxes that
support the state disability program, even if you will never become
disabled. You have to pay taxes that pay for roads, even if you don't
drive -- and you have to pay taxes that subsidize the mass transit
system, even if you don't ride the bus or train.
Are there malcontents down the street from you? What duties are they
thwarting? Aren't they as committed to the CID concept as you are?
http://starman.com/HOA/alexander.htm Sounds like there are warts in your
CID.
I disagree.
"How Do These People Sleep at Night?"
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/Media/ma_%20AHRC081500.html
"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of
law" http://www.EagleRing.com/foundations/billofrt.html
Everybody is saying that the court system is too expensive a remedy for
most abused CID homeowners:
Florida:
<<  ï¿½ Over 90% of Florida's Homeowners' Association members can't afford
to enforce their legal rights in the Florida courts.
Abusive and mismanaged HOAs thrive in Florida because HOA members are
severely politically, financially and legally disadvantaged when
attempting to enforce their legal rights against the abusive and
mismanaged HOA.  >> http://fcam.tripod.com/
California:
"California Pro-CAI Judge Hits Elizabeth McMahan With $92,000 Fee"
http://www.propertyrightstexas.com/PressRelease/California%20Pro%20CIA%20Jud
ge.htm
Pennsylvania:
"$46,000 Fee to Collect $500 Legal Bill?"
http://www.callaw.com/stories/edt0228j.html
Texas:
"I am specifically speaking of my case where I have had to spend over
$80,000 defending myself against CAI-Chubb lawyers who use HB2152, WHICH
THEY AUTHORED AND PUSHED THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE. Judge Pat Mizell says
that the actions of the CAI controlled Board of Northglen, has been
"improper" since l994. He DENIED their huge "legal fees" That is good
but I have had to defended myself against the law, passed by the state,
signed by George Bush, which is "improper" yet I am out $80,000 for my
lawyers."
http://propertyrightstexas.com/PressRelease/Houston%20Realtors%207.10.htm
with
That's a bald-faced lie! You have not supported your outrageous
allegations with ANYTHING! CID homeowners are *victims* of scorched
earth litigation perpetrated by vicious, power tripping board members
http://www.ahrc.com/HOAorg/News/keyreports/kr_gangster.html (that often
have personal agendas or that are waging personal vendettas) -- whose
risk is spread among *all* of the homeowners -- and the BOD's vendor
soldiers, that make money this way. It's those that run associations
like miniature city halls, or as their own private mini fiefdoms -- or
as if the associations belonged to them -- that "take a scorched earth
attitude towards any settlement."
to
I agree. Property managers should be regulated, and *not* by themselves.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=McMahon&num=25&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&s
eld=938075314&ic=1
housing
place
believe
to
"There are two basic kinds of change -- incremental and paradigm. This
raises the question: Does it make sense to incrementally tweak statutes
written by and largely for the benefit of the industry to make them more
consumer-oriented, or should we instead be asking the legitimate public
policy question of whether we should continue down the road of
privatizing local government by continuing to enact more legislation on
top of an already sizable body of industry-authored statutes enacted not
necessarily to benefit voters and consumers, but to maintain and
preserve the future of the CID industry? As Evan McKenzie notes in
Privatopia, 'the rise of CID housing is a unique, ad hoc form of
privatization carrying with it significant social and policy
considerations that never have been adequately considered by government
or academics.'" http://propertyrightstexas.com/HTMLarticles\cai_1.htm


subject:
The Libertarian Argument (was: Re: Misinformation (was: Re: CID's Are
 Here To Stay

text:
Evermore wrote:

Article. I.
Section. 10.
"Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or
Confederation... or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts..."
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html#section10

Constitutional rights you sign away when you buy a CID home:

Amendment I

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging ... the right of the people
... to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Amendment V:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in
actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be
subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or
limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness
against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without
due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use,
without just compensation."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentv

Amendment XIV:

"... No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the
privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any
state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due
process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws. ..."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html

The disclosure mandatorily given to homebuyers that makes this clear to
them:


text:
HOA "contracts" are inherently flawed, they can change before you even move in,
they can change without your approval, there are no disclosure provisions of
CCR's, OR the applicable civil and corporate codes, they are interpreted by a
handful of "elected" neighbors who may or may not like you and are subjective
and subject to misinterpretation (there are varying shades of 'beige' in HOA's
that range from eggshell, to ivory to beige to tan to taupe),   CCR "contract"
is sold under various misleading sales pitches like "country club living" and
adhere owners to these so called 'amenities' without first informing them of the
various and numerous governing provisions,  and then WHAMO - at closing - by the
way sign here and you should receive the 'country club' contract and the
information about the pools, tennis courts, club house, etc.  in the mail in
about two weeks.

disclaimer:  you may or may not be able to use these 'amenities' as the board
has the right to make decisions regarding the use of these facilities and at the
whim of board decisions they can take away your right to access these amenities
without your permission.  You shall assume all risk and liability of these
"common" area amenities whether you like it or not - no matter how agregious the
boards decisions regarding these facilities are - you must still continue to pay
your dues for these amenities.  Failure to do so will result in revocation of
your home and 'country club' membership within 90 days of delinquency.  You will
also be responsible for all lawyering fees in an attempt to collect said
delinquency.  However, keep in mind that any payment shall first be applied to
the lawyering fees then once paid, shall be applied to delinquent dues.  Note
that lawyering fees to collect such delinquency could well exceed the actual
debt by thousands of dollars.

"Freedom to Contract"?  Yeah - if the contract is valid to begin with.

Evermore wrote:


subject: Tax Discrimination (was: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
IP Evermore wrote:

As usual, you have not backed up your claim that the thousands and
thousands of CID homeowners that would avail themselves of government
oversight would be doing so due to "incompetence". You make wild, broad
and far-reaching allegations without backing them up.

Sorry, but you even have to pay taxes to support schools, whether or not
you have kids. You have to pay taxes that support the USA's military
forays into other countries, even if you don't support these excursions.
You have to pay taxes that support Medicare, even if you have a fatal
disease that's about to take your life. You have to pay taxes that
support the state disability program, even if you will never become
disabled. You have to pay taxes that pay for roads, even if you don't
drive -- and you have to pay taxes that subsidize the mass transit
system, even if you don't ride the bus or train.

I wonder what percent of taxes benefit all taxpayers. I know one thing.
CID taxpayers are doing more than their fair share.

And "sooner or later, [CID] owners will realize that local and state
governments are balancing their budgets on the backs of CID residents.
That could open up a full public policy debate over the role of CIDs
that should have happened 20 years ago." -- Author Evan McKenzie
"Things to Come: What does the future hold for community associations."

"CID Homeowners' Fees and the Issue of Double Taxation"
http://www.uchastings.edu/plri/96-97tex/cidhome.htm
<snip>


subject: Re: CID's Are Here To Stay

text:
It was an example of just one of many different alternatives available to
fund "oversight", not to be confused with trampling on your tax bracket, or
supporting local and state governments budget balancing, or advocating
double maybe even triple taxation, it was just an abbreviated example to a
prior abbreviated comment, nothing more, nothing less.

It wasn't important enough to change the subject title from "CID's are here
to stay".

"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
fee.


text:
"Rico" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Don't need to push for homeowner friendly legislation, show me a legal
precedent that prohibits HOA's from adopting a maintenence contract to
govern them. Where does the LAW mandate the terms and conditions in the
construction of CC&R's?
THE CONTRACT THEORY OF ASSOCIATION MANAGEMENT:

    The homeowners and the association being created by the homeowners enter
into the following agreement:

PURPOSE OF THE HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION:

    It shall be the purpose of this association to maintain the common areas
by using the combined buying power of the homeowners who are members to
retain gardeners and other tradesmen at the lowest possible prices while
providing the best possible service. The association shall have no other
powers.

DUES

Each homeowner member agrees that to accomplish this purpose, the member
must timely pay his membership dues. Such dues shall be set from time to
time so that the money collected shall be sufficient to meet the expenses of
maintenance. A sum not to exceed ten percent (10%) of the total estimated
annual expenses may be collected by the board as a contingency fund for the
annual expenses for that year.  If the contingency fund remains unused, no
such extra money shall be collected in the following year.  The board shall
present a budget reflecting both actual expenses for the year and
anticipated expenses for the following year, along with the amount of
monthly dues required to pay such expenses. This budget shall be approved by
a majority of the homeowners before any such dues shall be collected.

MAJOR EXPENSES

Where major expenses are required (for example, major repairs to the
building or buildings, termite control, roofing, and the like), the
association shall determine the timetable for such repairs by using
standardized tables for like repairs and alert homeowners at least one year
in advance of any such repair that an assessment for those repairs will be
made, and the expected amount of the assessment.  The association shall not
maintain reserves.

PAYMENT OF MAJOR ASSESSMENTS

Major assessments may be paid by the homeowners to the association in
monthly installments over a period of time not to exceed one year. Failure
to pay such assessments may result in the association placing a lien for
such assessments on the property, however, such liens shall not take
precedence over any prior lien or mortgage, and such liens shall not be
foreclosed upon until the sale of the property or the death of the last
surviving titleholder.

RESTRICTIONS ON ASSOCIATION POWERS

The homeowner's association shall not act in any capacity to restrict or
otherwise impact the use and enjoyment of the property by the individual
homeowners. To that extent, the association shall not make rules, levy fines
for failure to adhere to such rules or conduct itself in such a manner that
any homeowner or group of homeowners is omitted from any decision making
process undertaken by the association. The association shall do only those
acts, which are specified in this agreement and no others.

TERM LIMITS

A member of the board of a homeowners association shall serve no more than
three consecutive terms on the board, regardless of position held. Any term
of office shall not exceed two years. A period of two years shall pass
before a member may once again be elected to the board of the association.

CONFLICT OF INTEREST

This paragraph is in the process of being researched/written. It revolves
around Buyers/Sellers, and Boards with respect to property rights in voting
proxies and the day-to-day running of the HOA in a CID. i.e., who's "say" is
it?  The Buyer?  The Seller?  The Board?

RECORD OF ACTIONS

    All actions of the board shall be recorded in minutes of the board. Said
minutes shall be available to members upon demand.  Records shall be
maintained for a period of not less than seven years in a form that makes
them easily understood and available.  Such availability is limited to
normal business hours. The board members acknowledge and agree that the
records belong to each member and that the board is responsible for creating
and
maintaining them.