subject: rec.roller-coaster FAQ, part 2/3: Coaster info, orgs, and refs

text:
Archive-name: roller-coaster-faq/part2
Last-modified: Tue Jul 06, 1993; 16:07:11 MDT

This is part 2 of the rec.roller-coaster FAQ....

4. Common abbreviations

A lot of things discussed on rec.roller-coaster are in acronym form.  This
is because writing out ``Six Flags Over Texas'' several times in a posting
is tedious, at best; ``SFoT'' is much easier to write. Here are some
abbreviations you're likely to see in discussions on rec.roller-coaster.
Those items marked with an asterisk (*) are defined in the definition
section later below.

ACE - American Coaster Enthusiasts
BGT - Busch Gardens Tampa, Tampa, FL
BGW - Busch Gardens Williamsburg, Williamsburg, VA
BTW - By the way
CI - Coney Island, Brooklyn, NY
CP - Cedar Point, Sandusky, OH
DL - Disneyland, Anaheim, CA
ERT* - Exclusive Ride Time
FYI - For your information
GASM - Great American Scream Machine (roller coaster at SFGA, Jackson, NJ)
GP* - General Public
IAAPA - International Assoc. of Amusement Parks and Attractions
IMHO - In my humble opinion
IT - Inside Track
KD - Kings Dominion, Doswell, VA
KI - Kings Island, Kings Mills, OH
MACC - Mid-Atlantic Coaster Club
NAPHA - National Amusement Park Historical Assoc.
PGA - Paramount's Great America, Santa Clara, CA
POP* - Pay One Price
RC - Roller Coaster
SBNO* - Standing But Not Operating
SCBB - Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk, Santa Cruz, CA
SFGAd - Six Flags Great Adventure, Jackson, NJ
SFGAm - Six Flags Great America, Gurnee, IL
SFAW - Six Flags Astroworld, Houston, TX
SFMM - Six Flags Magic Mountain, Valencia, CA
SFoG - Six Flags over Georgia, Atlanta, GA
SFoMA - Six Flags over Mid-America, Eureka, MO
SFoT - Six Flags over Texas, Arlington, TX
TC - Texas Cyclone, Astroworld, Houston, TX
TPM* - Theme Park Mentality
WDW - Walt Disney World, Orange County, FL
WNYCC - Western New York Coaster Club
WoF - Worlds of Fun, Kansas City, MO

5. Definitions of Roller-Coaster terms

Below is a list of coaster terms used by enthusiasts when discussing
coasters, etc. This should help in following along with the discussions
and/or impressing friends and relatives with your knowledge of roller
coasters. Cross-references to other definitions in the list are enclosed
in angle brackets <like this>.

References to images at the ftp site, gboro.rowan.edu, which do a good
job of illustrating the point being defined are listed in square
brackets, like [Images: WHATEVER.GIF].  This is not an exhaustive list
of all images that show a ``whatever,'' but indicates those images which
do the best job of illustrating the definition.

Airtime - Describes the sensation of coming out of your seat when riding a
    coaster. This effect is usually felt while riding in a front seat
    when cresting a hill or in a back seat when descending.

Banked Turn - A turn in which the tracks are tilted laterally to allow
    trains to turn at high speeds without undue discomfort to the riders.

    [Images: RVR_CYC2.GIF]

Brakes - Every coasteraholic's nightmare! ...used to slow the train, they
    are located strategically in the circuit to control speeds in areas
    where excessive speed may be undesirable (note that ``undesirable'' and
    ``unsafe'' are not necessarily synonymous in this case, see also <Theme
    Park Mentality>). Brakes are usually located in the center of the
    trackwork, and not on the cars themselves. There are several
    different types of brakes used on a coaster, they are:

    Check Brake - A safety device that allows more than two trains to be
	on the same circuit, as part of the ``block'' safety system. These
	are usually brakes on a ride which don't necessarily slow down
	the train, but separate one block from another. Should a train
	try to enter another block when it is occupied, the safety system
	will <set-up> the ride.

    Scarf Brake - Used only to slow down a train, and are usually pre-
	set. The difference between a Scarf brake and a Trim Brake is
	that a Trim Brake can stop a train if needed, while a Scarf brake
	can only slow one down.

    Trim Brake - A brake used to slow the train running the track. This
	is used when the coaster exceeds recommended operating margins.
	It is also used when the train is causing too much wear on the
	track from excessive speed.

Brake Run - A flat stretch of track, usually two to three train lengths,
    at the station approach, where inbound trains are halted. Since it is
    very difficult to stop a train with wet brakes, this area is usually
    covered to keep the brakes dry during a rainstorm.

Boomerang - There are two different meanings for this term.

    1.	A type of coaster manufactured by Vekoma. It is a variation of
	the <shuttle loop> where you are hoisted up an incline, released
	and sent through the loading station into a semi-loop arrangement
	(as in definition 2 below) that inverts you twice, then into a
	<vertical loop>. After this the train heads up another incline
	and stops. The train is then pulled further up the second incline
	and released backwards, goes back through the loop and semi-loop
	and returns to the station.

    2.	An element used in a looping steel coaster that inverts you twice
	and also acts as a turnaround. You enter going up and to the left
	then the train twists upside down and follows through in an
	upright U-shape, you twist upside down and to the left again,
	exiting upright heading back the direction you came from.

	[Images: DRACHEN2.GIF]

Camel Back - A series of two or more hills, each slightly smaller than the
    preceding one.

Car - A unit or part of a coaster train, it usually carries between two
    and eight passengers.

Chain Dogs - A catch or pawl device beneath the train cars which engages
    into the chain lift.

Chain Lift - The rolling chain that carries the train to the crest of the
    lift hill.

Check Brake - A safety device that allows more than two trains to be on
    the same course. If there is a problem in one ``block'' of track, the
    check brake will not allow the following train(s) to continue the
    trackwork.

Circuit - A completed journey on a coaster track.

Classic Coaster - A term used to describe a coaster which is operated and
    maintained in a ``classic'' sense. These coasters usually run
    traditional trains, void of ratcheting lap bars, seat dividers, head
    rests, side bars, and other modern restraint/safety devices. ``Classic
    Coaster'' is also an official status given by the American Coaster
    Enthusiasts to coasters operating in the above manner. (See Part 3 for
    the list of ACE's Classic Coasters.)

    [Images: JKRABT_C.GIF]

Corkscrew - A coaster configuration that includes a horizontal spiral or
    helix in which riders are turned upside down one or more times.

Dog Leg - A left or right jog or offset in the otherwise straight, flat
    portion or trackwork.

Double Dip - A hill that has been divided into two separate drops by a
    flattening out of the drop midway down the hill.

Elevated Curve - A type of curve, usually found on an Out-and-Back, where
    the curve descends in height as it curves. These curves are normally
    banked as well (See Banked Turn).

Exclusive Ride Time - Usually part of an organized Coaster Club's event.
    An ``ERT'' consists of a block of time, usually before and/or after a
    park is available to the <general public>, in which only the members
    of the coaster club are allowed to ride. This allows the hard-core
    enthusiast more rides in less time. Parks usually make sure their
    coaster(s) are running better for such events, making them even more
    appealing.

Fan Curve - There are two somewhat different meanings of ``fan curve''
    floating about. A curved called a ``fan curve'' could actually meet
    definition 1 below, or definition 2, or both.  Confused?  Good. ;^)

    1.	A curve with spoke reinforcements radiating from a central point
	to the circumference of the track.

	[Images: RUSA.GIF]

    2.	A curve that enters the turn while ascending, and exits the turn
	while descending. These are usually more thrilling than a flat
	turn (See <Elevated Curve>).

Figure Eight - Layout of a coaster resembling the numeral eight, thus
    allowing both right and left turns.

Fine' Del Capo - A portion of track that quickly ducks under an overhead
    support in such a way as to give the rider a feeling of imminent
    decapitation. Can also refer to the portion of track that first enters
    a tunnel or covered brake run. Those of you who've studied music or
    Italian may recognize the term as Latin for ``end of the head.'' :^)

First Drop - Usually the highest and most exciting drop on a coaster, most
    often following immediately after the chain lift. First drops are
    usually angled at about 50 degrees.

    [Images: BEASTPC.GIF, RATTLER1.GIF]

Flat Turn - A turn in which the trackwork remains virtually flat (i.e. the
    opposite of a <banked turn>). It usually gives the riders the feeling
    that the coaster may tip over, due to <lateral gravity>.

    [Images: RUSA.GIF]

Flying Turns - A term from the original trackless coaster design. This
    coaster resembles a bobsled run with the trains running in a U shaped
    trough. The flying turns from the 1920s and 30s used Cypress wood for
    its trough and maintenance was high. Newer versions of this type use
    steel for the trough.

General Public - Literally refers to the non-enthusiasts who attend a
    park. The term is used to connote those park patrons who like their
    roller coasters a little (or a lot) less wild than the average
    enthusiast does.

Gully Coaster - A coaster that makes use of the natural terrain and gives
    an added feeling of speed by keeping the track close to the ground
    through the ups and downs.

    [Images: PHANTOM2.GIF]

Heartline Flip - An element on B&M <Inverted> coasters which rotates the
    train in a very small diameter corkscrew, producing a rotation about
    the rider's ``heartline''.  This is very similar to a barrel roll.

Helix - Corkscrew-shaped loops on either a vertical or horizontal plane.
    The usual meaning is of spiral turns either descending (like going
    down the bathtub drain) or ascending.

Hump - Sometimes used in reference to a coaster hill.

Inversion - any part of a steel roller coaster <circuit> that turns you
    upside down.

    [Images: DRACHEN3.GIF and many others]

Inverted - A coaster that rides below the track rather than on the track.
    The cars on this type of coaster are rigidly connected to their wheel
    assembly (Compare with <Suspended>).

    [Images: BATMAN01-05.GIF, GADVBAT1-6.GIF, TOPGUN01-03.GIF]

Interlocking Loop - Two <vertical loops> that intertwine like two links on
    a chain. An example would be the two loops on the Loch Ness Monster
    at Busch Gardens in Williamsburg, Virginia.

    [Images: NESSC01.GIF]

Lateral Gravity - Those forces which pull you to the side of the car (or
    slam you, as the case may be), often found on <flat turns>, and often
    eliminated with <banked turns> (especially on newer roller coasters).

Loading Platform - Portion of the station where passengers board the
    coaster trains.

Long Line - 2400 people waiting in front of you to ride a coaster!

     [Images: MSTREAKC.GIF, TOPGUN01.GIF]

Machine - Term sometimes used in reference to a roller coaster.

Manual Brake - A hand-operated <station brake>, where the train is stopped
    by the muscle power of the operator. Most often found on <classic
    coasters>. Sometimes, the operator may not apply enough force and the
    train will overshoot the station. If you're on board when this
    happens, you'll be one of the lucky ones getting a free ride!

Negative G's - (Short for ``Negative Gravity'') See <Airtime>.

Out and Back - A style of roller coaster. The name describes the general
    configuration of the ride, basically an elongated oval in which the
    train goes out to a turnaround and then returns to the station. The
    truest form of this would have no other curves besides the
    turnaround. Another way to do this would be to put a couple of 90
    degree turns (see <dog leg>) in the ride giving it a L-shape. In
    general out and backs have higher speeds than designs with more tight
    turns.

Parabolic - A coaster hill that has an almost continuous curve and very
    little, if any, straight track.

Pay One Price - An amusement park admission which includes all rides and
    shows. The alternative is for every ride to require a separate ticket
    (or tickets, as the case may be).

Pipeline - A coaster design by Arrow Dynamics in which the cars ride
    between the rails, allowing such maneuvers as ``barrel rolls'' to
    be performed.  No pipeline coasters have been built yet, but
    similar designs are the TOGO Ultra Twister and Mega Coaster, and
    the B&M Inverted coasters feature a ``heart-line'' flip, which is
    similar to a barrel roll, though not exactly the same.

Positive G's - Those forces which pull you downward, often appearing at
    the bottom of hills, and in steel looping elements.

Racer - Any coaster that runs two trains that leave the station at the
    same time and ``race'' other, most often on parallel tracks.

    [Images: RACER*.GIF, RUSA.GIF, ROLLTH01.GIF]

Ratchet - A claw-toothed steel bar running on certain inclines that
    prevents a train from rolling backwards. The ratchet causes the
    clanking sound associated with the chain lift (also referred to as
    the ``anti-rollback'' device or ``Ratchet Dogs''). The ratchet itself does
    not stop the train. This is done by a device affixed to the bottom of
    the car which catches in the ratchet.

Set-Up - A term used to describe a breakdown or those circumstances when a
    ride operator shuts down the ride with a train cycling.

Shuttle Loop - A type of coaster where the train travels forward out of
    the station through a vertical loop then up an incline of track that
    ascends high into the air. The train then plummets backwards through
    the loop and through the station, usually to another steep incline,
    which returns the train to the brake run.

Side Friction - A coaster with guide rails located above and on the
    outside edge of the running rails, instead of using guide <wheels>.

Slammer - A very abrupt, rough drop that sometimes occurs after a major
    hill (an extreme example of <Airtime>).

Speed Dip - A small hill taken at high speeds usually lifting riders off
    their seats (see <Airtime>).

Speed Run - A series of speed dips, usually on the way back from the
    turnaround on an <Out and Back> coaster.

Spiral - A 360-degree turn.

Standing But Not Operating - A roller coaster which is no longer operating
    but has not been destroyed. Preservation efforts by the American
    Coaster Enthusiasts, and others, often will focus on these coasters
    because of their status. They could be torn down at any time, and the
    lack of maintenance will cause their condition to deteriorate
    rapidly.

Stand-Up - A steel roller coaster, often with one or more inversions,
    where cars are designed for the riders to ride standing up instead of
    sitting down.

    [Images: SHOCK.GIF]

Station - A building that houses: ride operators, brake and chain lift
    controls, brake run, loading and unloading platforms, train storage
    area, and often, the train maintenance workshop.

Station Brake - Standard gear on EVERY coaster. Used for deceleration on
    return to the station (See <Brake Run>).

Steel Coaster - Generally, any coaster with tubular steel rails supported
    with steel framing. Some coasters classified as steel actually have
    wooden framing. Cars usually have nylon wheels that impart a smooth,
    quiet ride.

    [Images: GASM01A.GIF and many others]

Suspended - A coaster that rides below the track rather than on the track.
    The cars on this type of coaster are designed such that they are free
    to swing relative to their wheel assembly (Compare with <Inverted>).

    [Images: BBWOLFC.GIF]

Swoop Turn - A fast turn that incorporates a dip and a return to the crest
    of the next hill while turning.

Theme Park - A park, usually of large size, which has one or more ``themed''
    areas, with Rides and Attractions keyed to the theme of their
    location within the park. Disneyland, Walt Disney World, and Fiesta
    Texas are all excellent examples of theme parks.

Theme Park Mentality - A derogatory (but sometimes applicable) term which
    implies a set of overly strict, safety conscious rules and operation
    procedures.

    These policies are there to please the <general public> and the
    park's insurance company, not the hard-core enthusiast. :^)

Traditional Amusement Park - A park which still holds aspects of its
    origins in today's modern society. Most Traditional Parks grew out of
    ``Picnic Parks'' which were located at the end of trolley lines.
    Kennywood, Whalom Park, and Lakeside are all excellent examples of
    Traditional Parks.

Train - A series of two to seven cars hooked together to make a circuit of
    the coaster track.

    [Images: RACER2.GIF]

Turnaround - Usually the turn located farthest from the station (usually
    on an <Out-and-Back> style coaster) after which the trains begin
    their return.

Twister - Just like it sounds. The configuration of this type of coaster
    is varied and has multiple turns, often in a Figure 8 layout. The
    Coney Island Cyclone, the Riverside Cyclone, Mr. Twister, and the
    Texas Giant are good examples of a twister. You can expect the
    unexpected. A good twister will disorient you!

    [Images: TWISTER.GIF, RBLGHT01.GIF]

Unloading Platform - Portion of the station where passengers unload from
    the coaster train. Modern coasters have combined the loading and
    unloading platforms into one quick-moving operation.

Vertical Loop - A nearly closed vertical turn of 360 degrees in which
    riders are turned upside down in a transitional curve in a near-
    vertical plane.

    [Images: PHANTOM3.GIF]

Wheels - A coaster car uses 3 different types of wheels:

    Guide Wheel - A set of wheels which guide the train so that it does
	not leave the track sideways (also known as Side-Friction
	wheels).

    Road Wheel - A wheel that actually rides on the top of the track.

    Upstop wheel - A set of wheels which ride underneath the track to
	keep the train from jumping off or leaving the trackwork (also
	referred to as ``Undershot'' or ``Underside'' Friction wheels).

Wild Mouse - A small steel coaster featuring small cars (big enough for
    two adults); sharp, unbanked turns; quick, steep drops (heavy on the
    airtime); and, in general, a very rough and wild ride.

Wooden Coaster - Generally, any coaster with laminated wooden rails, to
    which flat steel rails are attached. Supporting members are usually
    wooden, however, some coasters classified as wooden actually have
    steel framing (e.g. Crystal Beach Cyclone, Coney Island Cyclone, and
    Frontier City's Wildcat!).

    [Images: CYCLONE1.GIF]

6. Roller Coaster/Amusement Park Organizations

   A. American Coaster Enthusiasts - ACE

    The American Coaster Enthusiasts (ACE) is a non-profit organization
    that was established to promote roller coasters, and their
    preservation, documentation, and information. The annual fee is $50
    for an individual. The rate for a couple is $65. (ACE has a very loose
    definition of couple -- two people living at the same address.)
    Additional family members can be added for $5 each. Membership
    includes four high-quality magazines a year and newsletters
    approximately every six to eight weeks.

    Get-togethers include an annual convention and usually two or three
    conferences. In many cases these events coincide with the opening of
    a new roller coaster and they almost always will feature some
    Exclusive Ride Time.

    Several parks provide free or discounted admission to ACE members.
    Parks providing free admission are Frontier City, Oklahoma City, OK;
    Magic Springs, Hot Springs, AR; and Worlds of Fun; Kansas City, MO

    Membership forms can be obtained by writing to:

	American Coaster Enthusiasts
	P.O. Box 8226
	Chicago, IL 60680

    or sending e-mail to [email], which is the address of
    ACE membership director Gary Aulfinger.

    It may take a few weeks for Gary and his ``lovely assistant'' Tracy to
    process and send the form, so be patient.

   B. Mid-Atlantic Coaster Club - MACC

    The Mid-Atlantic Coaster Club is a fairly good sized regional club.
    It is based out of the Virginia area, but members are welcomed from
    any state. There is a monthly newsletter called the Grizzly Gazette
    which keeps members up to date on club activities, etc.

    Among these activities is the annual Screamfest convention, usually
    held in early Spring. As usual, the highlight of this event is the
    exclusive ride time available only to club members.

    The annual membership fee is only $15 for an individual. There may be
    be a couple and/or family rate, but you'd have to inquire. For
    membership, please send a check (payable to Steve Thompson) to the
    following address:

	Steve Thompson
	7532 Murillo Street
	Springfield, Virginia  22151

	ATTN: MACC

   C. Western New York Coaster Club - WNYCC

    The Western New York Coaster Club (WNYCC) is a fairly good sized
    regional club. It is based in the Buffalo/Rochester area, but there
    are many members from just about every state.

    Meetings are held in Batavia, NY, between Buffalo and Rochester.
    There is a monthly newsletter called the Gravity Gazette that keeps
    members up to date on club activities.  The Gravity Gazette centers
    around articles written by the members themselves, giving a very
    intimate, inclusive feeling to the newsletter.

    Among these activities are an annual Coasterfest (usually on Memorial
    Day weekend). As with events of other clubs, you can expect to get in
    some exclusive ride time. Most of the time there is *at least* one
    dinner included in the registration fee.

    The annual membership fee is only $15 for an individual and $20 for a
    couple.

    The membership address is:

	Membership Director
	724 East 6th Street
	Erie, PA  16507

	ATTN: WNYCC

   D. First Drop - U.K. Coaster Club

    Coaster clubs are not confined to the U.S.! There is a club in the
    United Kingdom with a bi-monthly newsletter, which keep tabs on all
    the coasters across ``the pond''. There has actually been quite a bit
    going on in the U.K.

    The address is:

	First Drop
	Coaster House
	68 Dellfield Crescent
	Cowley, Middlesex
	UB8 2EU
	England

    The membership rate, payable in check, postal order, or International
    money order is:

	Europe - 6 pounds
	U.S.A. - $15

   E. National Amusement Park Historical Association - NAPHA

    NAPHA Is a non-profit organization formed in 1978 to preserve and
    display items of amusement park memorabilia (past and present),
    document park history, enable people with common interest in parks to
    meet and exchange ideas, and in the future, to open the Amusement
    Park Historical Society.

    Membership per year is $25.00/individual, $30.00 for Family or
    corporate membership (USA). International rates are $35.00
    individual, and $40 for family and corporate memberships. Check or
    money order can be made payable to ``N.A.P.H.A.'' Membership includes 6
    newsletters/year, park discount tickets, and an annual convention,
    usually held in IL.

    For membership, write to:

	National Amusement Park Historical Association
	P.O. Box 83,
	Mt. Prospect, IL  60056

   F. National Carousel Association - NCA

    The National Carousel Association is a non-profit organization
    dedicated to the appreciation and conservation of the hand-carved
    wooden carousels. This group is not really coaster-related, but an
    item of nostalgia which may be of interest to readers.

    The NCA's annual membership fee is $30.00 (at least $5 of this goes
    directly to carousel preservation), and the club offers a magazine/
    newsletter arrangement similar to the ACE schedule: 4 magazines/year
    (Merry-go-Roundup), and 6 newsletters/year. A yearly convention is
    also standard fare.

    Inquires for more information on the organization, or for membership
    requests, should be sent to:

	National Carousel Association
	P.O. Box 307
	Frankfort, IN  46041

7. References, Resources, etc.

   A. Books on Roller Coasters and Amusement Parks

    GUIDE TO RIDE -- published by ACE in 1991. Lists the MAJOR roller
	coasters located in North America. Features photos of most rides,
	and a full description of each.

	Ordering info:

	    $17.95 US and Canada
	    $21.95 all other countries

	    American Coaster Enthusiasts
	    c/o John Page
	    6108 Sherman Drive
	    Woodridge, IL  60517

    THE AMUSEMENT PARK GUIDE -- written by Tim O'Brien. Lists most every
	amusement park on this continent! Lists parks alphabetically by
	state then Canada and Mexico. Published mid-1991 but includes
	some rides to open in 1992.

	Ordering info:

	    Cost: $12.95

	    The Globe Pequot Press
	    ``A Voyager Book''
	    ISBN 0-87106-300-x

    GUIDE TO NORTH AMERICAN THEME PARKS -- published by AAA. Lists
	selected Amusement and Theme parks. Not all parks in either
	category are listed. Parks are listed by region. Lists all rides
	and attractions by name including description. Published Spring
	1990. Available in most book stores in the TRAVEL section.

    THE AMERICAN AMUSEMENT PARK INDUSTRY: A History of Technology and
	Thrill -- Written by Judith A. Adams, this traces the history of
	amusement parks from Bartholemew's Fair in 1614 to current.
	Covers the rise and decline of trolley parks, offers an in-depth
	critical look at the Disney Parks, and covers the current success
	of theme parks.  Often viewed from a socio-economic perspective,
	it can be a trifle dry at times, but contains a lot of historical
	data.

	    Twayne's Evolution of Business Series
	    Twayne Publishers
	    ISBN 0-8057-9833-6

    THE INCREDIBLE SCREAM MACHINE: A History of the Roller Coaster -- by
	Robert Cartmell. This book traces the roller-coaster from its
	origins in Russia and Paris to America.  It discusses the early
	rides, and how John Miller revolutionized coasters.  It goes on
	to talk about Traver and Theme Parks in general.  This book is
	illustrated with many photographs, including photos of Miller's
	rides, Traver's twisted (some might say ``demented'') metal
	coasters with wooden tracks, and the old switchback railways.

	    Bowling Green State University Popular Press
	    (419) 372-7865
	    Price: $42.95 (hardback)  $25.95 (paperback)

    THE GREAT AMERICAN AMUSEMENT PARK -- by Gary Kyriazi.  This is an older
	book with loads of facts and photos (somewhat dated, of course, but
	reportedly worth it if you can find a copy).  I don't have any
	other info on this book.  Feel free to contribute!

    A place to try for ordering some of these books is:

	Gunther Hall, Limited
	P.O. Box 140
	Alton Bay, New Hampshire 03810
	(603) 875-2248

    Call or write and ask for their list of coaster products.

   B. Magazines

    Rollercoaster! -- is the quarterly magazine of the American Coaster
	Enthusiasts and is included with ACE membership.  See the section
	on ``Organizations'' above for further info.

    Inside Track -- is a magazine that is worthwhile for new information
	on roller coasters and amusement parks in general.  It is a
	newspaper format, published monthly, and very professionally
	done.

	Along with news on new coasters, there is info on park closings,
	coaster designers and amusement ride innovations, and a section
	called APtv (Amusement Park Television) that'll give you info on
	videos and feature movies with coasters and parks in them.
	Inside Track is highly recommend for those that want to keep tabs
	on what's happening in the Amusement Park Industry.

	For a subscription in the US send your address and $20 to:

	    Inside Track
	    P.O. Box 369
	    Hammonton, NJ 08037

	The subscription rate for those outside the US is $30.

    At the Park -- is published by Yellow Dot Publishing, and is by-and-
	large the brainstorm of long-time ACE corporate member Allen
	Ambrosini.  This is more a journal for the amusement park
	industry than for the average coaster enthusiast; however, the
	magazine is TOP NOTCH in design and format (contains excellent
	4-color photographs of today's top coasters and parks!), with
	very well-written articles, and a sensible, enjoyable layout.
	You'll learn much more about the industry as a whole.  It's a
	highly recommended as an addition to ACE News or Inside Track. A
	one year subscription (5 issues) costs:

	    USA:                   $17.95 (airmail -- $27.95)
	    Canada and Mexico:     $25.95 (airmail -- $30.95)
	    Outside North America: $25.95 (airmail -- $54.95)

	Send your name and address to:

	    At The Park Magazine
	    P.O. BOX  597783
	    Chicago, IL  60659-7783

    E Ticket -- is published two or three times per year, and features
	stories focused primarily on the Disneyland of the 50s and 60s.
	(The full title of the magazine is ``The ``E' Ticket -- Collecting
	Theme Park Memories.'') Though Disneyland is the primary focus,
	the magazine covers other California parks as well, such as
	Pacific Ocean Park and Knott's Berry Farm. Each issue is about 35
	pages long.

	For a sample issue, send $6 to:

	    The ``E'' Ticket
	    20560 Alaminos Drive
	    Saugus, CA  91350

	If anyone has info about ordering from outside the US, I'd be
	happy to add it.

    Amusement Business -- a weekly publication which covers ALL aspects
	of the entertainment industry: water parks, amusement parks,
	theme parks, traveling carnivals, state fairs, concerts,
	sporting events, trade shows, ANYTHING to do with public supplied
	entertainment!

	AB is always on the ball about the latest and hottest news!! AB
	is a bit pricey, though -- for pre-paid credit card orders, you
	get a discounted yearly subscription rate of:

	     $85.00 - USA
	    $105.00 - Canada
	    $115.00 - Overseas

	But consider the fact that this price includes about 55 issues/
	year! There are also rates for a half-year (6 months)
	subscription, but I don't have them readily available.
	Inquiries, information, and subscriptions can be sent to:

	    Amusement Business
	    Subscription Dept.
	    P.O. Box 41527
	    Nashville, TN  37204-9945

   C. FTP site

	The ``official'' ftp site for rec.roller-coaster is
	gboro.rowan.edu.  The good stuff is in directory /pub/Coasters.
	You'll find all sorts of goodies, including images (in JPG and
	GIF formats), descriptions/reviews of parks and coasters, and
	this FAQ.  Check the file Coasters.lis, which is an index of
	what's available.

	Please limit your ftp usage to after hours, Eastern Time.

	If you have anything to contribute to the FTP archive, send it to
	Ken Denton, [email].

8. Amusement Industry Jobs

A lot of us would love to be a roller coaster designer.  We often see
posts from people asking how to get such a job.  Here are some
comments/advice/etc. on coaster-designing jobs, mostly from people who
don't have such jobs, so take it all with a few grains of salt.

    A lot more people want to design roller coasters than can find
    jobs doing it.  Be aware of that before setting your hopes too
    high.  Don't quit your day job, as they say. For example, Arrow
    Dynamics employs about a dozen engineers, and has low turnover.
    The other coaster designers are probably similar.

    Mechanical and electrical engineering are the most used
    disciplines. Arrow also has two civil engineers.

    Get some industry design experience first. Remember these
    companies are small, and don't have the ability to train new-hires
    like a Boeing or IBM would.

    If you *do* get a job with an amusement design company, recognize
    that you're probably not going to start off designing the next big
    bad roller coaster.  You may design a spinning kiddie ride.  Or an
    insignificant component of a spinning kiddie ride.

    You can get company addresses from the ACE Directory, phone books,
    the Thomas Register of Suppliers, and no doubt other sources. Make
    friends with your local librarian.  They like looking things up --
    that's why they're librarians.  It'll cost you $0.29 + paper and
    time to send a resume.

    Do as much research as you can before you fire off resumes!
    Join ACE.  Go to the ACE conventions.  Talk to people. Go to the
    IAAPA Convention (but be forewarned that this is a *business*
    convention, and if you go barging in with your resume in hand you
    may not make too good an impression; talk to people and see if you
    can make appointments; do this *before* going to the convention).
    Subscribe to Amusement Business.

    If you're still in school, get a summer job at an amusement park.
    Try for operations or maintenance (sorry, experience in food
    service won't do you too much good ;^) ). Learn everything you can
    about the rides and how they're operated and maintained.

Still want to do it?  Good luck!  We look forward to riding your creations.


author: Geoff Allen

subject: rec.roller-coaster FAQ, part 3/3: lists and statistics

text:
Archive-name: roller-coaster-faq/part3
Last-modified: Tue Jul 06, 1993; 16:00:33 MDT

This is part 3 of the rec.roller-coaster FAQ....

9. Lists, statistics, and other arcana

   A. Roller Coaster Designer Info

	Designers of Wooden Coasters

	CURRENT:

	Custom Coasters Inc. (Mike Boodley) -- Builders and Designers
	John F. Pierce and Assoc. -- Designers and Builders
	Michael Black and Assoc. -- Builder
	RCCA/TOGO
	Intamin AG

	PAST:

	Allen, John -- Designer and Builder
	Baker -- Designer and Builder
	Bitler, Oscar --
	Cobb, William J. -- Designer and Builder
	Dinn, Charlie (Dinn Corp.) - Builder
	Fehr, Carl --
	Harton, T.M. --
	Hoover, Frank --
	IAD (International Amusement Devices) -- Designers and Builder
	Keenan, Vernon -- Designer and Builder
	Leis, Edward --
	Looff -- Designer
	Lorenz & Williams --
	Miler -- Designer
	Miller, John -- Designer and Builder
	Mitchell, James T. --
	Moran, George --
	NAD (National Amusement Devices) -- Designers and Builders
	Pierce, Fred --
	Prior and Church -- Designers
	PTC (Philadelphia Toboggan Company)-- Designers and Builders
	Rosser -- Designer
	Schmeck, Herbert -- Designer and Builder
	Sink, Amandus --
	Summers, Curtis D. -- Designer
	Thompson, Marcus A. --
	(Harry G.) Traver Engineering Co. -- Builders and Designers
	Vaszin, Aurel --
	Vesco, Paul --
	Vettel, Andrew --
	Vettel, Edwin -- Designer and Builder

	Designers of Steel Coasters

	Arrow Dynamics (Ron Toomer)
	Bollinger & Mabillard (B&M)
	Intamin AG
	MACK
	OD Hopkins
	Schwarzkopf, Anton
	Schwarzkopf Rides and Amusements (Anton's son, Wieland)
	SDC Corp. of Italy
	Sensei
	TOGO of Japan (RCCA/TOGO overseas)
	Vekoma International
	Zamperla
	Zierer

   B. Roller Coaster Record Holders

	Current Wooden Coaster Record Holders

	STEEPEST
	    1. 60 degrees: Rattler - Fiesta Texas; San Antonio, TX
	    2. 58 degrees: Cyclone - Astroland/Coney Island; Brooklyn, NY
	    3. 56 degrees: Georgia Cyclone - SF over Georgia; Atlanta, GA

	HIGHEST
	    1. 179 ft, 6 in: Rattler - Fiesta Texas; San Antonio, TX
	    2. 160 ft: Mean Streak - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    3. 143 ft: Texas Giant - SF over Texas; Arlington, TX

	LONGEST DROP
	    1. 170 ft: Rattler - Fiesta Texas; San Antonio, TX
	    2. 155 ft: Mean Streak - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    3. 148 ft: Hercules - Dorney Park; Allentown, PA

	FASTEST
	    1. 73 mph: Rattler - Fiesta Texas; San Antonio, TX
	    2. 65 mph: Mean Streak - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    3. 64.77 mph: The Beast - Kings Island; Kings Mills, OH

	LONGEST CIRCUIT
	    1. 7400 ft: The Beast - Kings Island; Kings Mills, OH
	    2. 5530 ft: Rattler - Fiesta Texas; San Antonio, TX
	    3. 5427 ft: Mean Streak - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH

	OLDEST
	    1. 1902: Leap The Dips - Lakemont Park; Altoona, PA
	    2. 1919: Jack Rabbit - Clemonton Lake; Clemonton, NJ
	    3. 1920: Jack Rabbit - Kennywood; W Mifflin, PA

	MOST FAMOUS (yeah, it's subjective, but these coasters are
	    somewhat legendary...)
	    1. 1927 Cyclone - Astroland/Coney Island; Brooklyn, NY
	    2. 1927 Cyclone Racer - The Pike; Long Beach, CA
	    3. 1924 Bobs - Riverview; Chicago, IL

	Current Steel Coaster Record Holders

	STEEPEST
	    1. 90 Degrees: Ultra Twister - SF Astroworld; Houston, TX
	    2. 60 degrees: Magnum XL-200 - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    3. 60 degrees: Excalibur - ValleyFair!;

	HIGHEST
	    1. 205 ft: Magnum XL-200 - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    2. 196 ft: Bandit - Yomiuriland, Japan
	    3. 188 ft: Viper - SF Magic Mountain; Valencia, CA

	LONGEST DROP
	    1. 225 ft: Steel Phantom - Kennywood; W Mifflin, PA
	    2. 194 ft: Magnum XL-200 - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    3. 171 ft: Viper - SF Magic Mountain; Valencia, CA
	        (The Magic Mountain Standards of Operating Procedures
	        Manual for Viper says the drop is 187 ft. This has been
	        the subject of some controversy in the group. 171 ft.
	        is the number in Guide to Ride, and has been confirmed by
	        an Arrow Dynamics employee.)

	FASTEST
	    1. 80 mph: Steel Phantom - Kennywood; W Mifflin, PA
	    2. 72 mph: Magnum XL-200 - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	    3. 70 mph: Viper - SF Magic Mountain; Valencia, CA

	LONGEST CIRCUIT
	    1. 7450 ft: The Ultimate - Lightwater Valley; UK
	    2. 5500 ft: Dragon Mountain - Marineland; Niagara Falls, Ontario
	    3. 5106 ft: Magnum XL-200 - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH

	HIGHEST LOOPING COASTER
	    1. 188 ft: Viper - SF Magic Mountain; Valencia, CA
	    2. 173 ft: GASM - SF Great Adventure; Jackson, NJ
	    3. 170 ft: Shockwave - SF Great America; Gurnee, IL

	MOST INVERSIONS - (7)
	    Viper, Magic Mountain
	    GASM, Great Adventure
	    Shockwave, Great America
	    Kumba, Busch Gardens Tampa

	HIGHEST G FORCES - (+6.5g)
	    Mindbender, Fantasyland, Edmonton, AB
	    Drier Looping, Germany
	    Moonslaut Scramble, Japan

	MOST TRAINS ON CIRCUIT
	    1. 5: Thriller; German Fairs
	    2. 4: Olympia Looping; German Fairs
	    3. 4: Hymalaya Bahn; German Fairs

	MOST DEMENTED SHUTTLE LOOP (yeah, another subjective one!)
	    Wiener Looping, Flamingoland (UK)

   C. ACE's Classic Coaster Roster

	Big Dipper - Camden Park; Huntington, W. VA
	Big Dipper - Geauga Lake; Aurura, OH
	Blue Streak - Cedar Point; Sandusky, OH
	Blue Streak - Conneaut Lake Park; Conneaut Lake, PA
	Coaster - Arnolds Park; Iowa
	Coaster - Playland; Vancouver, BC, Canada
	Cyclone - Astroland; Coney Island, NY
	Cyclone - Lakeside Park; Denver, CO
	Cyclone - William's Grove Park; Mechanicsburg, PA
	Jack Rabbit - Kennywood Park; W. Mifflin, PA
	Kiddy Coaster - Playland; Rye, NY
	La Montana Rusa - Chapultepec Park; Mexico City, MEX
	Lil' Dipper - Camden Park; Huntington, W. VA
	Little Dipper - Kiddie Land; Melrose Park, IL
	Little Dipper - Hillcrest Park; Lemont, IL
	Roller Coaster - Joyland; Wichita, KS
	Roller Coaster - Western Washington Fair; Puyallup, WA
	Rollo Coaster - Idlewild Park; Ligonier, PA
	Screechin Eagle - Americana Park; Middletown, OH
	Sea Dragon - Wynadot Lake Park; Powell, OH
	Starliner - Miracle Strip; Panama City, FL
	Thunderbolt - Kennywood Park; W. Mifflin, PA

   D. Inside Track ``Top Coasters'' Readers Survey

    Many people want to know which is the best/wildest/awesomest/scariest
    coaster in the world (or at least US). We can't answer that for you,
    but we can pass on to you the results of the Inside Track magazine
    reader's survey. This is an annual survey, the most recent version of
    which was published in the August 1992 issue of Inside Track. Just
    because a coaster is highly-ranked on this list doesn't mean *you*
    will think it's best, but it does mean that lot of coaster
    enthusiasts like it, and you probably will too.  Rankings from past
    years are given as well, to give you some idea of how things change
    from year to year.  If a column contains '-', it indicates that
    coaster didn't place in the rankings for that year, for whatever
    reason (it was new, it didn't get enough votes, etc.).  Also note
    that the 1992 survey lists the top 50, 1991 listed the top 40, and
    1990 listed the top 20.

     +----------------------------------- 1992 Rank
     |   +------------------------------- 1992 Vote Total
     |   |    +-------------------------- 1991 Rank
     |   |    |  +----------------------- 1990 Rank
     |   |    |  |  +-------------------- Ride name, Park, Location
     V   V    V  V  V

     1 (733)  3  3  Texas Giant, Six Flags over Texas, TX
     2 (606)  2  4  Magnum XL-200, Cedar Point, OH
     3 (526)  5  1  The Beast, Kings Island, OH
     4 (463)  1  2  Timber Wolf, Worlds of Fun, MO
     5 (347)  7  5  Phoenix, Knoebel's, PA
     6 (305)  -  -  BATMAN -- THE RIDE, SFGAm, IL (New in '92)
     7 (278)  6  6  Cyclone, Coney Island, NY
     8 (274) 10  7  Thunderbolt, Kennywood, PA
     9 (179)  4  -  Thunder Run, Kentucky Kingdom, KY
    10 (151)  -  -  The Rattler, Fiesta Texas (New in '92)
    11 (148) 16  -  Steel Phantom, Kennywood, PA (New in '91)
    12 ( 78)  8  9  Predator, Darien Lake, NY
    12 ( 78) 16 14  Grizzly, Kings Dominion, VA
    13 ( 76)  9  8  Mister Twister, Elitch Gardens, CO
    14 ( 74) 13 11  Big Bad Wolf, Busch Gardens, VA
    15 ( 71) 34  -  Mean Streak, Cedar Point, OH
    16 ( 70) 11 18  Giant Dipper, Santa Cruz, CA
    17 ( 69) 35 19  Georgia Cyclone, SFoG, GA
    18 ( 68) 29  -  Roller Coaster, Playland, BC
    19 ( 66) 24  -  Blue Streak, Conneaut Lake, PA
    20 ( 65) 32  -  Cyclone, Lakeside, CO
    20 ( 65)  - 20  Wild One, Wild World, MD
    21 ( 61) 14  -  Blue Streak, Cedar Point, OH
    22 ( 60) 12 12  Mindbender, Fantasyland, Alberta
    22 ( 60) 23 16  Racer, Kings Island, OH
    23 ( 57) 11 10  Hercules, Dorney Park, PA
    23 ( 57) 17  -  Vortex, Wonderland, Canada
    24 ( 54)  -  -  Arkansas Twister, Magic Springs, AK (New in 92)
    25 ( 51) 22  -  Ninja, Magic Mountain, CA
    26 ( 50)  -  -  Drachen Fire, Busch Gardens, VA (New in 92)
    27 ( 49) 14  -  Giant Dipper, Belmont Park, CA
    27 ( 49) 19 13  Viper, Magic Mountain, CA
    27 ( 49)  -  -  Screamin' Eagle, SFoMA, MO
    28 ( 43) 20  -  Iron Wolf, Great America, IL
    29 ( 40) 30  -  Yankee Cannonball, Canobie Lake, NH
    30 ( 38)  -  -  Swamp Fox, Family Kingdom, SC (New in 92)
    30 ( 38) 21 18  G.A.S.M., Great Adventure, NJ
    30 ( 38) 30  -  Matterhorn Bobsled, Disneyland, CA
    31 ( 37) 22 12  Cyclone, Riverside, MA
    32 ( 36) 33 15  Mindbender, SFoG, GA
    33 ( 34) 40  -  Space Mountain, Walt Disney World, FL
    34 ( 32)  -  -  Ultra Twister, Astroworld, TX
    35 ( 31) 29  -  Anaconda, Kings Dominion, VA
    35 ( 31)  -  -  Adventure Express, Kings Island, OH (New in 91)
    36 ( 30) 18  -  Screechin Eagle, Americana, OH
    37 ( 29) 38  -  Big Thunder Mtn Railroad, Disney, FL
    37 ( 29) 36  -  Comet, Hersheypark, PA
    38 ( 28) 32  -  Big Dipper, Geauga Lake, OH
    38 ( 28)  -  -  Vortex, Carowinds, NC (New in 92)
    39 ( 26) 31 17  Shockwave, Great America, IL
    40 ( 25)  -  -  Greezed Lightnin, Astroworld, TX
    41 ( 23) 33  -  Colossus, Magic Mountain, CA
    41 ( 23)  -  -  Vortex, Kings Island, OH
    42 ( 22) 25  -  Loch Ness Monster, Busch Gardens, VA
    43 ( 21) 40  -  Roller Coaster, Arnolds Park, IA
    44 ( 20)  -  -  Rebel Yell, Kings Dominion, VA
    45 ( 18) 28  -  La Montana Rusa, Mexico City, MX
    45 ( 18) 33  -  Montezooma's Revenge, Knott's, CA
    46 ( 16)  -  -  Wildcat, Elitch Gardens, CO
    46 ( 16)  -  -  Tornado, Adventureland, IA
    47 ( 14)  -  -  Thriller, German Fairs
    47 ( 14) 26  -  Texas Tornado, Wonderland, TX
    47 ( 14) 39  -  Grand National, Blackpool, UK
    48 ( 13)  -  -  Jack Rabbit, Kennywood, PA
    49 ( 12) 39  -  Thunderhawk, Dorney Park, PA
    50 ( 11)  -  -  Big Dipper, Blackpool, UK
    50 ( 11)  -  -  Le Monstre, La Ronde, Canada
    50 ( 11)  -  -  Sea Serpent, Wildwood, NJ
    50 ( 11)  -  -  Excalibur, Valleyfair!, MN
     -   -   15  -  Revolution, Magic Mountain, CA
     -   -   33  -  Dragon Mountain, Marineland, Canada
     -   -   37  -  Wildcat, Lake Compounce, CT
     -   -   38  -  Gemini, Cedar Point, OH
     -   -   39  -  Space Center, Phantasialand, Germany
     -   -   40  -  Bandit, Yomiuriland, Tokyo, Japan
     -   -   40  -  Psyclone, Magic Mountain, CA
     -   -   40  -  Sidewinder, Hersheypark, PA

   E. Amusement Park Attendance Statistics

    The following list of the top 40 Amusement Parks, ranked by
    attendance, is from Amusement Business.  These statistics are for
    1992.

    NOTE: Policies at some parks forbid release of attendance figures.
    An asterisk (*) appearing after the attendance figure indicates the
    figure is an estimate, based on information gathered by reliable AB
    sources. Parks that either did not report or did not qualify on the
    basis of reported figures in 1990 and 1991 are indicated with '-'.

    In addition, the March 26, 1993 Wall Street Journal listed the top
    10 parks in attendance world-wide.  The numbers for the North
    American parks match Amusement Business' list.  The non-North
    American parks are listed with '.'s in the three rank columns and
    a blank '% change' field.  I've placed them into Amusement
    Business' list because of the interest, not only to North American
    readers of rec.roller-coaster, but also to all our friends
    elsewhere! The attendance numbers for these parks is shown with a
    question mark, since I don't know if these are official numbers or
    estimates (it's a safe bet that the Disney figures are estimates,
    of course).

    92 91 90   PARK, LOCATION                  ATTENDANCE     % CHANGE
    == == ==   ===============                 ==========     ========
     1  1  1   WDW, EPCOT, MGM Studios         30,240,000*    Up 8%
                 Lake Buena Vista, FL
     .  .  .   Tokyo Disneyland                16,000,000?
                 Tokyo, Japan
     2  2  2   Disneyland                      11,600,000*    Down slightly
                 Anaheim, CA
     .  .  .   EuroDisney                       8,700,000?
                 Marne la Vallee, France
     3  3 12   Universal Studios Florida        6,700,000*    Up 12%
                 Orlando, FL
     .  .  .   Blackpool Pleasure Beach         6,500,000?
                 Blackpool, UK
     .  .  .   Lotte World                      6,000,000?
                 Seoul, Korea
     4  4  4   Universal Studios Hollywood      4,800,000*    Up 4%
                 Universal City, CA
     5  6  5   Sea World of Florida             4,100,000*    Up 5%
                 Orlando, FL
     6  7  6   Sea World of California          4,006,000*    Up 5%
                 San Diego, CA
     7  5  3   Knott's Berry Farm               3,900,000*    Down slightly
                 Buena Park, CA
     8 13  7   Paramount's Kings Island         3,260,000*    Up 12%
                 Kings Falls, OH
     9  8  8   Six Flags Magic Mountain         3,200,000*    Up slightly
                 Valencia, CA
    10 15 14   Six Flags Great America          3,150,000*    Up 17%
                 Gurnee, IL
    11  9 10   Cedar Point                      3,125,000*    Up 4%
                 Sandusky, OH
    12 11 15   Six Flags Great Adventure        3,100,000*    Up 6.5%
                 Jackson, NJ
    13 12  9   Busch Gardens Tampa              3,050,000*    Up 5%
                 Tampa, FL
    14 14 11   Six Flags over Texas             3,000,000*    Up 10%
                 Arlington, TX
    15 10 13   Beach Boardwalk                  3,000,000*    No change
                 Santa Cruz, CA
    16 20 16   Six Flags over Georgia           2,600,000*    Up 14%
	         Atlanta, GA
    17 17 17   Paramount's Great America;       2,350,000*    Down slightly
                 Santa Clara, CA
    18 16 19   Canada's Wonderland              2,300,000*    Down 4%
	         Maple, Ont.
    19 18 18   Paramount's Kings Dominion       2,250,000*    Down 3%
                 Doswell, VA
    20 21 21   Busch Gardens Williamsburg       2,118,300*    Down 5%
	         Williamsburg, VA
    21 22 20   Opryland                         2,023,409     Up 5%
	         Nashville, TN
    22  -  -   Fiesta Texas                     2,000,000     (new park)
	         San Antonio, TX
    23 23 23   Six Flags Astroworld             2,000,000*    Up 7%
	         Houston, TX
    24 29 31   Marine World-Africa USA          1,900,000     Up 32%
	         Vallejo, CA
    25 27 28   Dollywood                        1,800,000     Up 11%
	         Pigeon Forge, TN
    26 28 26   Six Flags over Mid-America       1,800,000*    Up 12%
                 St. Louis, MO
    27 26 27   Silver Dollar City               1,752,926     Up slightly
	         Branson, MO
    28 24 25   Hersheypark                      1,700,000     Down 6%
	         Hershey, PA
    29 19 21   Ontario Place                    1,655,000     Down 30%
	         Toronto, Canada
    30 25 29   Sea World of Texas               1,500,000*    Down 23%
	         San Antonio, TX
    31 31 33   Worlds of Fun                    1,327,395     Up 3%
	         Kansas City, MO
    32  -  -   Sea World of Ohio                1,313,200*    Up 5%
	         Aurora, OH
    33 32 30   Paramount's Carowinds            1,300,000*    Up slightly
	         Charlotte, NC
    34 33 37   Kennywood                        1,215,900*    Down 6%
	         West Mifflin, PA
    35 34 33   LaRonde                          1,200,000     Up 7%
	         Montreal, Quebec
    36 33 37   Geauga Lake                      1,107,000     Down 3%
	         Aurora, OH
    37 36 36   Valleyfair!                      1,075,000*    Up 4%
	         Shakopee, MN
    38 37 39   Knoebels Amusement Resort          980,000     Up 2%
                 Elysburg, PA
    39 35 35   Darien Lake                        975,000     Down 14%
		 Corfu, NY
    40  -  -   Lagoon                             951,664     Up 6%
	         Farmington, UT

   F. Coming Attractions -- new coasters for 93 and beyond!

    A common question on rec.roller-coaster is ``What new coaster is
    park X getting for 1993?''  Here is the list of all announced, or
    at least solidly rumored coasters being built in the next couple
    of years.  Note that no Arrow Pipeline coasters have been
    announced by anyone at this time.  ``Who's getting a Pipeline?''
    or ``I heard Cedar Point is getting a Pipeline'' is asked/stated
    often on rec.roller-coaster, but as far as anyone who's telling
    knows, Arrow hasn't sold any Pipeline coasters yet.  Note, though,
    that ACE News reported in July 1992 that someone *would* be
    getting a Pipeline in 1993, saying the sale was confirmed by Arrow
    Dynamics engineering director Dal Freeman.  A Disney employees'
    internal newsletter says Arrow announced the sale of a Pipeline for
    the 1994 season. We'll see.

    Anyway, on with the show....

    New/relocated coasters for 1993:

    COASTER         TYPE             PARK                      OPEN DATE
                    DESIGNER
    =======         ========         ====                      =========
    Gadget's	    S, Junior	     Disneyland		        open
      Go-Coaster       Vekoma	       Anaheim, CA
    Top Gun         S, Suspended     Kings Island               open
                       Arrow           Kings Mills, OH
    Thunderation    S, Mine Train    Silver Dollar City         open
                       Arrow           Branson, MO
    Canyon Blaster  S, 4-Looper      Grand Slam Canyon          July
                       Arrow           Las Vegas, NV
    "unnamed"       S, ?-Looper      Yang San                   open
                       Arrow           Korea
    Top Gun         S, Inverted      Paramount's Great America  open
                       B&M             Santa Clara, CA
    Batman          S, Inverted      S.F. Great Adventure       open
                       B&M             Jackson, NJ
    Kumba           S, 7-Looper      Busch Gardens Tampa        open
                       B&M             Tampa, FL
    Windstorm       S, Twister       Fun Forest                 open
                       SDC             Seattle, WA
    Wild Mouse      S, Wild Mouse    Idlewild                   open
                       Vekoma          Ligonier, PA
    Python          S, Shuttle       Wild World                 open
                       Arrow           Largo, MD
    Whirlwind       S, Corkscrew     Knoebel's                  open
                       Vekoma          Elysburg, PA
    Batman-The      S, Stand-up      Six Flags Astroworld       open
       Escape          Intamin         Houston, TX
    "unnamed"       S, Junior        Perinorte Centro
                       (undecided)      Mexico City, Mexico
    Outlaw          W, Twiser        Adventureland              open
                       CCI              Des Moines, IA
    Tornado         W, Dbl out/back  Strickler's Grove          Jul 04
                       In-House         Hamilton, OH
    "unnamed"       W, Dbl out/back  Gulliver's World
                       CCI              Warrington, England (UK)
    "unnamed"       W, Twister       (Not announced)
                       RCCA/TOGO        Japan
    Whacky Worm     S, Junior        Worlds of Fun              open
                       Pinfari          Kansas City, MO

    New/relocated coasters for 1994:

    COASTER        TYPE              PARK
                   DESIGNER
    =======        ========          ====

    "unnamed"      S, Out&Back       Blackpool Pleasure Beach
                      Arrow             Blackpool, UK
    "unnamed"      S, Out&Back       Gary's Wild Wild West (new park)
                      Arrow             Jean, NV
    "unnamed"      S, 3-Looper       Luna Park
                      Arrow             Australia
    "unnamed"      S, ?-Looper       (unannounced)
                      Arrow             Japan
    "unnamed"      S, ?-Looper       (unannounced)
                      Arrow             Japan
    "unnamed"      S, Shuttle        Frontier City
                      Arrow             Oklahoma City, OK
    "unnamed"      S, Stand-up       Six Flags Great Adventure
                      B&M               Jackson, NJ
    Batman         S, Inverted       Six Flags Magic Mountain
                      B&M               Valencia, CA
    Top Gun        S, Inverted       Paramount's Canada's Wonderland
                      B&M               Toronto, Canada
    Lightning	   S, Speed Racer    MGM Grand
      Bolt            Intamin           Las Vegas, NV
    "unnamed"      S, Stand-up       Drayton Manor
                      Intamin           England, UK
    Grossloop-     S, 3-Looper       Liseberg Park
      ingbahn         Schwarzkopf       Goteborg, Sweden
    "unnamed"      S, Inverted       Kentucky Kingdom
                      Vekoma            Louisville, KY
    Crystal Beach  W, Dbl Out&Back   Great Escape
      Comet           PTC (Schmeck)     Lake George, NY
    Cyclone        W, Twister        Six Flags Great America
                      (unannounced)     Gurnee, IL

   G. List of Endangered Coasters in USA

    Legend:

    DAMA - Damaged and non-operational
    DEMO - Demolished/Destroyed
    SBNO - Standing But Not Operating
    STOR - Dismantled and in storage
    OPER - Currently operating, but its days are numbered

			ASSURED TO BE SAVED

    SBNO -Leap The Dips: Side Friction; Lakemont Park; Altoona, PA
    STOR -Comet: Dbl Out-and-Back (from Crystal Beach)

			COASTERS WITH A CHANCE

    STOR -Jumper: 19?? Jr. Wood, West Point, PA

			COASTERS IN DANGER

    OPER -Wildcat: 1926 Out-and-Back, Elitch Gardens; Denver, CO
    OPER -Coaster: Twister, PNE; Vancouver, BC
    SBNO -Comet: 1946 Twister; Lincoln Park; N Dartmouth, MA
    SBNO -Thunderbolt: 1925 Twister, Coney Island, NY
    SBNO -Mighty Lightnin: 1958 Wood, Rocky Glen; Moosic, PA
    SBNO -Red Streaker: 19?? Jr. Wood, Willow Mill; Mechanicsburg,PA
    SBNO -Jack Rabbit: 1910 Out/Back, Idora Park; Youngstown, OH
    DAMA -Wildcat: 1927 Twister, Idora Park; Youngstown, OH

			COASTERS WE'VE RECENTLY LOST FOREVER

    DEMO -CNE Flyer: 1956 Oval, CNE; Toronto, Canada
    DEMO -Speedway: 1937 Out/Back, Eldridge Park; Elmira, NY
    DEMO -Valley Volcano: 1956 Jr. Wood, Angela Park; Hazleton, PA
    DEMO -Tornado: 1968 Out/Back, Panama City, FL
    DEMO -Mountain Flyer: 1929  Out/Back, Mountain Park; Holyoke, MA
    DEMO -Coaster: 1931 Out/Back, Harvey's Lake, PA
    DEMO -Shooting Star: Out-and-Back (from Lakeside Park)


author: Andrew - Supernews

subject: Re: RFD: rec.crafts.scrapbooks

text:
[manually fudging the headers of this post in order to reply to a post
that's not on our server. this is also crossposted to news.groups]

Lizz Parsons <[email]> writes:

His name wouldn't also happen to be Parsons, would it? That rings a few
bells...

(Early 90's is not very early by Usenet standards; Usenet was invented in
1979. I've been around since about 1988 or so; my boss has since 1982.)

Then either he's had a very sheltered life or he confines his attentions
mainly to the alt.* groups, where there is no "official" list. Outside of
alt.*, in hierarchies like comp.*, rec.*, sco.* etc. (known as the "big-8"
for largely historical reasons), it's common for well-run news servers to
update their group list automatically from the official one, rather than
rely on requests from users to add new groups. However, many ISP news
servers do not do this, for a variety of reasons ranging from not even
knowing that there _is_ an official list, to not knowing how to set up
software to synchronise with it, or simply being lazy and letting the users
do all the work, through to (in _very_ rare cases) actually knowing all
about how the official list works and making a deliberate decision not to
follow it.

Sadly, there are a number of companies offering news service whose owners
or senior employees have far less experience with Usenet than your dad does,
and the results are - inconsistent, to say the least.

There aren't 80,000 groups. There aren't even 40,000. One of my colleagues
(the guy who has the job of maintaining _our_ list of groups) wrote at length
on this subject:
http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/providers/40000groups.html

That's not true (for groups outside alt.* and other uncontrolled regions)
at a whole range of ISPs and news servers, not just for a few oddballs like
us and news.individual.net (formerly fu-berlin.de/cis.dfn.de).


author: Shaz

subject: RFD: rec.crafts.scrapbooks

text:
Top posting is allowed in our group. Some top post some bottom post and
others in between --- Not considered rude so if the posts are crossing over
this is why your getting top posts from us.
Personally i prefer top posts since alot of us post several times a day and
read we generally dont need to scroll to see what the initial  post was.
Hopefully we wont hear anything more about this.
Jurys in and decided.
Have a good day all.
Shaz


author: Rob Singers

subject: Re: RFD: rec.crafts.scrapbooks

text:
Shaz startled all and sundry by ejaculating the following words of
wisdom

Shaz in many places people pay for Internet access based on the amount
of data transfered, *not* their time online.

When you don't snip that text that you don't care about you cost them
money.  In OE which you are using you can go shift-control-Pagedown to
mark all the text and then hit delete.  Four keys and you save your
friends money.

There are other reasons not to top post but I don't feel like going into
it now.  I have my own hobby to indulge.


author: vj

subject: X News: display Q

text:
hi,

i am using 3 pane view.My q is :

What does the horizontal bar in the extreme lower right hand corner do.It
is the bar right next to "S". I have hovered the mouse(cursor) over it but
it does not show anything.

can someone shed some light on it?

THANKS
vijay


subject: Re: X News: display Q

text:
vj <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns918DCC2CA9369xs4iyjw72001sneakema@24.2.68.108:

 ok never mind -- there is a display when i start a group.

-- i should be more patient!!

vj


subject: Re: X News: display Q

text:
vj <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns918DCC85371E3xs4iyjw72001sneakema@24.2.68.108:

  basically i had to change the color of the numbers to re. so red on
black-- this i can see.previously it was black on a black background- no
wonder i could not see.

vj


author: Mr. E. Lurker

subject: Re: X News: display Q

text:
vj <[email]> posted:

You're having fun, aren't you? :)  That's one of the extra special
unpublished features of XNews.  You can tweak away to your heart's content.
I don't think I ever fire XNews up without doing some little tweak, or try
some new something or other.  Every time I read this group I find at least
one or two things to try.

It's habit forming....


subject: Re: X News: display Q

text:
"Mr. E. Lurker" <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns918DC5001C4C0lurker@209.249.90.100:

 yes.U are right --- i AM having lots of fun!!.

I thank myself for having 'discovered" Pegasus mail and "Xnews", "DAP"
etc.Maybe i should start asking other people if there are more "such
things'-- i run a windows 98.

regards,

vijay


author: Dennis Roark

subject: Re: X News: display Q

text:
[posted and mailed]

vj <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns918E78FC7F5BAxs4iyjw72001sneakema@24.2.68.108:

Curious what you find better in Pegasus Mail over Outlook Express?
Thanks.


subject: Re: X News: display Q

text:
Dennis Roark <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns918EBE919B957denroearthlinknet@207.217.77.22:

  i strongly encourage you to ask the Q in comp.mail.pegasus-mail.ms-
windows/comp.mail.pegasus-mail.misc.Veteran Pegasus e-mail users can give
you a 'comprehensive and accurate" reply to your Q.

In an nutshell 'safety" from viruses etc.

vijay


author: Randal L. Schwartz

subject: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
So, this came to me while I was being creative about something else
(OK, I was drifting off to sleep, but nevermind that.)

Problems as I see them:

The pro-ad group wants to put ads where people will see them.  They
see "market.*" as a ghetto area.

The anti-ad group wants usenet as it was.  They either don't want ads
at all for purist reasons, or they want a feed that is ad-free because
they pay by the minute and ads are costly.

So, let's satisfy both camps with one solution:

*Require* all ads to have

	Distribution: ad

in the header.

Any ad violating this is instant cancel-fodder.  Ads are allowed *anywhere*
as long as they have this distribution tag.

The people that pay per minute for a feed could put "!ad" into (or
leave "ad" out of) their feed's distribution list.  Alternatively,
people can teach their newsreader to ignore such articles if they so
desire.

Retorts: leaky distributions?  Well, that would certainly work in the
ad-poster's favor right?  And this would get you to fix your upstream
list really fast if you really didn't want the ads.

Well?  Comments?  Enforcement?  Other ideas?

Just another old-time usenetter (since 1980 when it first began),


author: Brad Templeton

subject: Re: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
It is the right sort of idea, but the question is, should the default
be on or off?

Consider it this way.  Say you proposed that any message advocating left
wing politics include:

Distribution: left-wing

would that be fair?   In the strict technical sense, yes.  But also clearly
not.

Better to require tagging, but make the default be to accept.  Anything
that the default is to refuse will not gain success unless it is
tremendously popular.  Ads are among the most popular things on USENET
(second only to sex and comedy this month), so they would have a shot, but
even they would take time.

Thus we really want a new article-type header which can be filtered on.

Article types are actually many:

	query
	followup/rebuttal/answer
	discussion
	flame
	ad (one-time or general product or new product)
	complaint
	opinion
	news
	misc information
	survey

Plus a few others I have written down somewhere.


author: David Barr

subject: Re: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
In article <[email]>,
Randal L. Schwartz <[email]> wrote:

Yep, I made the exact same suggestion about one month ago during
the "selling FAQ's for profit" brouhaha.

Unfortunately, it means the cooperation of too many news admins
to get off the ground.  People posting ads will (justifiably) be
mad when their ads don't propagate anywhere because all of their
feed sites (or their feeds) toss the 'ad' distribution.

But, it is an idea whose time has come.

--Dave


author: Bengt Larsson

subject: Re: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
In news.admin.policy, [email] wrote:

There is a secondary problem with this. If company A posts
a lot of obnoxious ads then lots of sites may cut off
the "ad" distribution and nice and informative company
B may suffer.

Company A and B (and C etc..) are unlikely to want to
negotiate directly about ad quotas or (even worse)
hype level of content.

What the market.* hierarchy is is a way to negotiate ad space by
paying money for it. In fact "market" is a good name here for more
reasons than one.

That is certainly a risk. One way to counter it is to add other
content, making the market.* hierarchy more like an ordinary
publication and therefore attractive to more sites.

It seems you will have to pay a fee for the majority of market.*
groups, so it really will be like a publication. The Computer
Shopper of the net, perhaps.

There may even be competitors to market.* (they would compete on ad
prices, distribution, and content). If there are too many of those to
easily deal with, another company can start a hierarchy cataloging
them.

Since I've written a lot about market.* here already, I would like to
point out (again) that I'm unaffiliated with market.* and the creators
of it. I just think managing namespace this way is a good idea.


author: John Hascall

subject: Re: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
Thomas F Lee <[email]> wrote:
}           [email] "Randal L. Schwartz" writes:
}> {stuff deleted about pro/anti ad "camps"
}> So, let's satisfy both camps with one solution:
}> *Require* all ads to have
}>         Distribution: ad
}> in the header.
}> Any ad violating this is instant cancel-fodder.  Ads are allowed *anywhere*
}> as long as they have this distribution tag.

}Excellent idea. If this was done, then I, for one, would immediately put the
}relevant mantra in my kill file to avoid getting the ads, as would many many
}others.  The posters of said ads, seeing no response would then post without
}the tag...

   And then they would be cancelled, assuring no response...

John


author: Tim Pierce

subject: Re: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
In article <2r81ou$[email]>,
David Barr <[email]> wrote:

I'm really starting to like this idea.  It's not necessarily
the case that the distribution topology for "ad" would be
hobbled -- there are enough large service providers like
UUNET and PSI to guarantee a minimum of first-generation
propagation.

As for whether everyone would toss it: would they?  I'm
inclined to think that more administrators now than before
would keep the new distribution, on the basis of freedom of
expression, etc. etc. etc.  There's still the fact that many
people would automatically junk ads, but that doesn't seem
likely to stop an actual adman.

What I *don't* like about it is that I think this is more
likely to contribute to ancillary noise on the net, what
with people potentially following up to ads they don't like
and removing the distribution simply to increase propagation
of their own posts.


subject: Re: A straw-man: Use "Distribution: ad"

text:
In news.admin.policy, [email] (Brad Templeton) wrote:

Straw man.

Ah, we must have sex and comedy everywhere.


author: Kevin Darcy

subject: Re: open message to kebbin

text:
In article <[email]> stevegt@teraluna writes:

Because the group has a help-me/support-group/compare-notes/real-world kind
of orientation, not a here's-what-I-think/listen-to-me/you're-all-going-to-hell
kind of orientation. Kind of hard to describe in precise terms, really. Read
it and see.

								- Kevin


author: teraluna!stevegt (Steve Traugott

subject: Re: open message to kebbin

text:
[email] (Kevin Darcy) writes:

I don't get alt.* here, but I think I understand.

*You* aren't generating that second type of post, are you?

Am I correct in understanding that there are some religious
undertones to some of the conflict-generating postings?

Steve

---
Steve Traugott - computers, electronics, organizations, and aerospace
(DAILY)> [email]    (DEMAND)> [email]
(DAILY)> bilver!teraluna!stevegt  (DEAD)> [email]


subject: Re: open message to kebbin

text:
In article <T6XgDB3w164w@teraluna> teraluna!stevegt (Steve Traugott ) writes:

Well, maybe I exaggerated the pseudo-description somewhat, for the sake of
contrast...

The kind of group I'm talking about (the second category) is one which
(like t.a) delves deeply into the underlying economic, legal, historical,
political, social, ethical (and occasionally the religious) theoretical
underpinnings of its subject matter, rather than (like a.c-s) containing
primarily informational, administrative, anecdotal, and/or fact-filled
articles. Yes, I frequently post to threads in "discussion/argument" groups
- especially t.a - whether they have to do with child support or not. As a
former Philosophy major, I assert my fundamental Right to Argue :-). See
below.

I wouldn't characterize the threads as being predominantly "religious" in the
common sense. I WOULD, however, characterize the thread instigators or main
participants as often being "religious" - perhaps "overzealous" or "fanatical"
is a better word - in their insistence that they MUST be Absolutely Right (TM),
regardless of the facts, and that failure to agree with them will lead to the
Imminent Demise of Society as We Know It (TM). I was describing a
stereotypically "religious", intolerant, inflexible, doom-foretelling, mindset
or attitude, rather than the mere presence or absence of religious "faith", in
the conventional sense.

---

ATTEMPT AT ANALOGY:

Think of alt.child-support as being a Saturday-afternoon support group, meeting
in the Community Center of a quiet suburb or small city, where people come to
get help, information, share experiences, learn from each other etc. Usually
quite calm and sedate. Almost always productive.

Think of talk.abortion as two large, opposing groups of protesters, shouting
and carrying placards, marching to the Capitol steps, when they suddenly turn
a street corner, and meet each other head-on. Screams, yells, violence. Not
calm or sedate at all. Rarely productive; in fact, often extremely counter-
productive.

My point was that those protesters shouldn't come smashing into the suburban
Community Center, screaming at the support group, waving placards in their
faces, etc. etc. even if they're nominally both oriented towards the same
social "problem". Different people have differents ways of dealing with
similar problems, or aspects of problems. T.a has its way; alt.child-support
has its way. I don't think t.a should be forcing its "style" of dealing with
the child-support "problem" on alt.child-support. The group's name, and its
original charter, is much more general than its USUAL content. Respect the
CONTENT, not just the name or the original charter...

Do these images help?

---

I read alt.child-support (and its "spin-off" group, alt.dads-rights) because
I like to be as fully-informed as possible about all aspects of the subject
matter. I rarely post there because, quite frankly, I'm not a father, married,
or divorced, nor am I a court officer, Friend of the Court, social worker, or
an attorney specializing in Family Law, etc. nor have I ever been any of these
things, so I don't have a lot of first-hand, or hardly even second-hand,
factual information to input to the group. Mostly, I just soak up information
from a.c-s like a sponge. And I see nothing wrong with using the group in
that manner.

But, on the other hand, I have accumulated a fair amount of knowledge, formed
strong opinions and generated some (IMHO) constructive ideas about paternity
child-support (particularly the (debatable) necessity for its reform) as a
SOCIAL/LEGAL/POLITICAL ISSUE and I will not hesitate to share that knowledge,
speak those views, and propose those ideas if child-support-related threads
happen to arise in other, relatively-appropriate groups. Experience has taught
me not to START such threads, however, since it is a very explosive and
divisive issue (or set or combination of issues), and there really is no one
good home for it right now. But, if a thread has already started, and is in
full bloom, and still remains more-or-less in the charter of the originating
group, I see no reason to refrain from participating in it, especially if, as
in the most recent case, I believe in good faith that my research data and
(IMHO) more-mature-than-average views on the subject might hasten it to a
swift conclusion.

Yes, these recurring child-support-related threads are a problem, and,
personally, I think the eventual solution is to create a group in the "talk"
hierarchy specifically to host them. But, people don't seem nearly as
interested in finding a solution to the problem, as they are in tossing
recriminations at each other and/or indulging their long-standing vendettas
with me personally. Every initiative I have suggested has ended up being
smothered in noise. If the problem is to be fixed permanently, it'll probably
have to be by someone else...

Any volunteers?

								- Kevin


author: Rick B.

subject: Re: Blinky on Facebook

text:
Sqwertz <[email]> wrote in news:230209.212521afc-
[email]:

The Social Networking Improvement Project!


author: Frank Slootweg

subject: Re: Blinky on Facebook

text:
Rick B. <[email]> wrote:

  Sorry, but no can do! The resulting initialism is just plain
unacceptable, because if Blinky could be accused of anything, it wasn't
*that*!


author: Blinky Let The Rotting Begin

subject: Re: Blinky on Facebook

text:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:26:02 +0100, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Right!

Thanks for remembering that I'm dead.


author: Guy Macon

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Woodchuck Bill <[email]> says...

It's not the rudest thing I have seen by far, but I consider it
to be somewhat rude, and very, very rude if it is also a flame.

If I were to start a thread titled "Woodchuck Bill is a (insert
insult here)", guess what comes up at the top of a Google Groups
search?  I once had a potential employer ask about some old
baseless claims posted in 1997 by net-kook Vladimir Il'ich Fomin
that had made it to the top of Google for that very reason.
(See http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Guy+Macon for my solution.)

There is little point in shutting the barn door after the horse
has escaped.


author: Woodchuck Bill

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in
news:[email]:

That's fair, but asking a votetaker an important question is not exactly
the same thing.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in
news:[email]:

What if I had the OP killfiled, and you replied. I would effectively see
you as the OP of the ping, though it might not be the case.

Also, the OP might withdraw the post from the Google archives. That would
not remove *your* reply from the archives, therefore, there would be a ping
post perceived as originating from you for all to see.


author: Todd Michel McComb

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
In article <Xns9578A1409C5C0bswr607h4@130.133.1.4>,
Woodchuck Bill  <[email]> wrote:

If you've got an important question for someone, why wouldn't you
ask that person the question directly?  This entire phenomenon of
spraying an inquiry into a newsgroup is bewildering.

I've said this before, but if someone has an important inquiry for
me or the NAN Team more broadly, they need to send it to us directly.
We might not see it here, and I (at least) feel no particular
compunction to respond to public postings.  I've been responding
here more than is typical, and probably should be getting back to
the "dead moderated group" issue from which recent threads have
diverted me.

Todd McComb
[email]


author: Marcel Beaudoin

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Woodchuck Bill <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns9578A1EC94A75bswr607h4@130.133.1.4:

Not necessarily, as long as Guy replies following netiquette and properly
quoted and kept track of the attributions of the message he is replying to.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Woodchuck Bill <[email]> says...

Only if you ignore the references line and the Re: in the subject.

Point well taken.  I will try to make a point of changing the subject
line when replying.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
[email] (Todd Michel McComb) wrote in
news:cjsaou$1c93$[email]:

What if you want everyone to see the answer?


author: Brian Mailman

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Todd Michel McComb wrote:

I've seen it a lot in mailing lists and what with many of them with
"groups" in the name I believe there's greater confusion between the two
media.  People insisting on having private conversations in "public"
without considering it's like hearing someone on a cell phone on a
crowded bus during rush hour.

I realize that's not the intent here but rather some sort of misguided
sense of casting sunshine on the process but it has the same qualitative
result.

B/


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Marcel Beaudoin <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns9578A17E47AEAmbeausympaticoca@130.133.1.4:

So do you think posters other than the OP bear any burden of keeping the
subject line appropriate and/or accurate?


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
In article <Xns9578A77769C7bswr607h4@130.133.1.4>,
Woodchuck Bill  <[email]> wrote:

I guess that depends on the relative priority of getting an answer
at all compared with possibly having the answer be public....

Todd McComb
[email]


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Woodchuck Bill <[email]> says...

Ask him to reply where everyone can see his reply.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Brian Mailman <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

It was not intended to be a private conversation.


subject: posting netiquette - Was Re: CFV posting

text:
Note subject change

Woodchuck Bill <[email]> wrote in news:Xns9578A39335468bswr607h4
@130.133.1.4:

I think that it really depends on the group that you are in. In some
groups, thread drift is as routine as the tide, and is quite often expected
to happen sooner or later. For example, in rec.pets.dogs.behavior, thread
drift is pretty common, as is accidental thread hijacking. However, subject
headings are very infrequently changed to reflect the change in topic. In
other groups (rec.arts.sf.written frex) thread drift is not as common and,
to me, people are much more strict about changing the subject if the topic
of the posting is different from what the heading has proposed.

For example, I think that this topic has drifted far enough (or at least my
reply has) from CFV posting that I think that it warrants a new subject.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in
news:[email]:

OK, I've been spanked for my ping, I accept responsibility, and I've
apologized to Bill Aten. In addition, I am willing to withdraw the posts
from the Google archives if Bill is annoyed by the post.

Now, back to the issue..

How would everyone feel if each one of the two CFVs for any given proposal
is posted differently..the 1st CFV posted as a reference to the final RFD
of that proposal..the 2nd posted as a new thread with no references?

Does anyone have a problem with that?

This would increase the overall visibility of the CFV. People with a
preference like Guy M & Kathy M would have the first CFV posted ideally for
them (using Bill Aten's method), while people with preferences like
Christian M, Edward O, Dave B., and myself would have the second one posted
in what we consider to be the better way (using David E Smith's method).


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Woodchuck Bill wrote:

No, and I said as much (what you snipped out).  I was sharing an
observation since someone said he was bewildered as to why someone would
do that.

Actually, I did it myself recently since I wanted an offlist
conversation with someone and didn't have her email.  No one in the
group particularly minded and the trolls had a field day entering into
the thread <G>.

B/


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Woodchuck Bill <[email]> says...

My "preference" is very mild.  I am fine with whatever way is chosen.
My philosophy is that it's my job to configure my system to show me
what is important to me, and that I should be able to adapt to all
widely-used conventions.


author: Robert McClenon

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
On 4 Oct 2004 22:21:19 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email]> wrote:

I would request that you not ask to have any posts nuked by Google.  I
understand that that is your right under Google's current rules.  I
think it is less than honest, since the assumption should be that any
post to Usenet that doesn't have the X-No-Archive header is immortal.
I certainly think it is not appropriate that an individual should be
able to withdraw statements that they made that they now regret, but
that were honest statements, when Google will not cancel statements
that falsely claim to have made by someone, such as libelous
forgeries.

     - -      Bob McClenon


author: Klaas

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
After careful consideration, Robert McClenon muttered:

Google is not the be-all and end-all of usenet mortality.  X-No-Archive
is a convention, not a definitive flag of a message's transience.  I
think that many personal archives do not honour it, for instance.

That is a strong opinion.  You might have better luck taking it up with
google, rather than the individual posters.

-Mike


author: Arthur L. Rubin

subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Robert McClenon wrote:

I don't know.  Google allowed me to nuke the apparently CoS
sporged nonsense messages last year.  (I couldn't do it
easily now, because the E-mail address is closed.)


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Robert McClenon <[email]> says...

An interesting side-issue about Google;  You can nuke your posts but
I can't nuke mine.  That's because you post with a valid email address
that you can reply to, and I don't.  That's one on the disadvantages
to address munging, including the adding of NOSPAM in the address.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Robert McClenon <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Sorry, I will leave that up to Bill Aten.


subject: Re: CFV posting

text:
Robert McClenon <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

If it was a forgery of an actual e-mail address, they will honor the
request by the current owner of that address. Other than that, you are
probably referring to froggery posts, which may only be cancelled by the
owner of the posting address.


subject:
Re: Threads and Subjects. (was Re: subject changing (was Re:
 environmental interaction)))

text:
Axolotl wrote:

Hence the "was (Re: <old subject>)" part. Duh. Regardless, if your newsreader is programmed well enough, it won't matter even if the subject field is COMPLETELY changed; the thread will say in tact, complete with correct sorting and everything. Netscape Messenger does it PERFECTLY--and it's what I use. <shrug>

Only those using inferior newsreaders. Such idiots deserve to be annoyed by their own incompetence.

I don't see why--the participants simply need to steer the discussion BACK on-topic somehow.


author: Eric VanHeest

subject: Re: Threads and Subjects. (was Re: subject changing (was Re:  environmental interaction)))

text:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action Eep? <[email]> wrote:

Yet, watch as Eep howls and complains when someone does change the
subject without including a "re: old subject" in the new subject.  Since
all Eep cares about is whether something works fine in his newsreader,
and not about what anyone else finds asinine, why would he care if
someone does something that works "PERFECTLY" in his reader?


text:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action Eep? <[email]> wrote:

No thread that Eep joins ever stays "in tact" :)


author: Snuhwolf

text:
In article <adoek7$d8n$[email]>, Eric VanHeest clouded the waters
of pure snuh with,
His word wrap is funky.Most of the sentences are truncated mid word.
If thats how mozilla works...forgetit.BTW, why is this thread x-posted to so
many NG's?


author: fD

text:
Eric VanHeest <[email]> wrote in
news:adoell$d8n$[email]:

No, indeed.  There are always holes in them, as all I ever see are the
followups.  Gotta love that bozo bin :O)


text:
Snuhwolf wrote:

It's not how Netscape Messenger (not Mozilla) works but how YOUR newsreader, WinVN, is screwing up line lengths. Tip: enable word/line wrap and you shouldn't have a problem.

Because it started out on-topic for all of them.


author: Briachons

text:
On 2002-06-06 22:13 +0000, Snuhwolf wrote:

It was X-posted, and *no one* did what must be done: adjust the
follow-up. Feeding the troll was more important. Please allow me to find
it very strange to see people argue about netiquette and such without
taking care on where there replies go.

Follow-up set to poster: flames are off-topic in *all* groups (and my
mail is working.)


text:
"ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½HWï¿½LF" wrote:

Yes, and, actually, mine is "X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)". Regardless, while Netscape Communicator is BASED off Mozilla code, it's not Mozilla; Mozilla is Mozilla; everything else that is based off it is just a modified Mozilla.

Eh, I like 4.x (minus the occasional hangs and the long page loads--and odd pausing in Win2K even when browsing local simple HTML files).

Set them yourself. http://tnlc.com/eep/wrap.html

?

estolen cars? Slow down and learn to type.


text:
In article <[email]>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Eep=B2?= clouded the
waters of pure snuh with,
Ahhh...well thanks for the history lesson then.

It has to be better than the 3.0 version I have which dosn't support Java in
most web pages.But its nice & stable...just good fer reading usenet.

Um...no :o)
You are wrapping fine ATM on WinVN so no worries.

Its sekrit ha><0r code d00d.

Are you mocking my espelling senor " I won't set my word wrap for nobody" ?


author: Adrian Wood

subject: Re: Threads and Subjects. (was Re: subject changing (was Re:   environmental interaction)))

text:
<[email]> Snuhwolf's bottom made this noise:

On a related note, I advise all OE users to point their respective browsers,
whether they be IE, navigator, Mozilla, Opera, Lynx, or WHATEVER here;

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/quotefix.php

Among other things, this little background-running program sorts out
quoting, puts your signature at the BOTTOM of the post automatically instead
of the top, (So you can actually turn the 'Auto-insert sig' setting on
without looking stupid,) moves the cursor to the bottom of the post by
default, (To shut those trolls who claim they should top-post because that's
where OE puts the cursor by default,) automatically snipping off other
people's signatures when you reply to them, colour-codes posts to easier see
who said who... Basically, lots of really useful stuff that OE should do
itself already, but doesn't.

All of which can be turned on or off individually if you don't want to use
them, of course.

Also, Followup-To set to alt.games.grand-theft-auto; not because it's the
most relevant of the groups involved, (That wold probably be
news.software.readers, natch) but simply because it's the only one on the
list I frequent.

Adrian


author: Mairhtin O'Feannag

subject: [XNEWS] how to download multiple articles

text:
I am trying DESPERATELY to mark multiple articles to download and
decode, but nothing seems intuitive.

When I click on the article, it simply starts to download and decode,
without, for example, allowing me to scroll down and SHIFT click to
mark the contents for download.

And.. once these things are in the "queue", they seem to not decode
and be placed in x:\xnews\attachments , which is where they go if I
click on them individually.

This is maddening.

Mairhtin O'Feannag


author: DC

subject: Re: [XNEWS] how to download multiple articles

text:
Mairhtin O'Feannag wrote:

This might be of some help.

http://xnews.3dnews.net/sizer/index.html


author: Zem

text:
Hi Mairhtin O'Feannag! If I remember correctly, you said:

Don't click the subject when selecting files to queue or turn off split-
screen view.

Clicking a subject while in split screen gives focus to the article viewer
which downloads the article for viewing. This makes it difficult to select
multiple files.

Queued articles will decode to the directory in
(menu)[special][setup][files][decoded files directory]

zem.


author: Marco

text:
Zem <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Yes, this makes it a *heck* of a lot easier if you simply view the headers
in full screen - which is the default for binary groups, btw.

If you are confused by the Queue folder, you don't really have to use it.
I download tons of MP3's with xnews, the way I do it is:

1. open group
2. click "show complete multipart binaries only" (filter menu) - I actually
have a key assigned to it.
3. select the files one by one, tapping the space key to queue them.  I use
the arrow keys with my right hand to move up and down the list, and hit the
space key with left hand.  If there are a bunch in a row, you can simply
keep tapping the space key and it will jump to the next one in the list.
4. Hit F4 once you have all the ones queued that you want - you're all
done.

When exiting the group, "mark all read".  The next time you open the group,
if any missing parts have shown up to complete an entire file, the whole
thing will show up, and also appear unread, even though some of the parts
may have been "marked read" the previous time.

Note: header storage must be on for this method to work.


author: MACALD

subject: Re: Plug Pulling at Nyx

text:
ya ya ya
==========Mark A. Cochran, 6/7/95==========
In article <[email]>,
Peter McDermott <[email]> wrote:
->In article <[email]>,
->[email] (The Bitch Is Back) wrote:
->
->>>no it isn't.  mark wasn't kicked off for his opinions but,
->>>like you, for continually spamming like a demon.
->>
->>According to Andrew Burt, sysadmin of Nyx, in message id:
->><3oo6td$[email]>, mcochran@nyx{10}.cs.du.edu
->>(Mark Cochran) posted 115 messages out of 1300 messages
->>OVER A TWO MONTH PERIOD.
->>
->>Tell us again how posting three.something DIFFERENT messages per
->>day to a newsgroup is "spam".
->
->This sounds like a really interesting fight. I wish I had even
->half a clue what it was about.
->
You can get all the gory details from Keiths' ftp site, but here's a
summary.

Keegan and Spordon didn't care for each other and would take pot shots
at each other from time to time.

Spordon replied to an article written by Keegan, adding extra
attribution marks (">") follwoed by words written by Spordon. This had
the effect of making it appear that Keegan had written these words.

Keegan complained to [email] (the sysadmin for Nyx, from
which spordon was posting these forgeries).

Andrew Burt ignored the complaints, stating that forgery was a "real
world" issue and had to be dealt with in the real owrld, "with
lawyers". He stated that he would take no action to censure spordon
unless keegan first presented him with a court decreee stating that
spordon was guilty of the crime of forgery.

Keegan continued to complain, until eventually aburt told him he
didn't want to hear about it.

Keegan interpreted this as an order to stop sending email about it, so
he posted his complaints publically in nyx.misc from his nyx account.

At this time, aburt posted that he would close both account (keegan
and spordon) if there was any further mention of spordons forgeries,
in any venue. In reply to a question, he stated that he would close
the accounts even if the complaint was posted to misc.test or any
other newsgroup, anywhere.

Keegan did post another complaint about spordons forgeries, and aburts
lack of responsivness.

Andrew Burt closed both accounts. At this point, I entered the fray.

I protested against aburts handling of the episode, as I felt he
bungled it badly. It seems clear to me that had aburt merely
instructed spordon to stop forging words, the problem would have been
resolved.

Over a 2 month period, I posted an average of 3 messages a day to
nyx.misc, not all related to this issue (though certainly most were).

I originated *no* threads, but confined my articles to responses to
others articles. In each of my articles related to this thread I
continued to maintain that neither spordon or keegan should have lost
their accounts.

I received threats via email from aburt, in which he stated at
varioous times that he would close my account, or, if I "bugged" him
too much about this, that he would shut down Nyx.

In his efforts to bury his mishandling of the affair, Andrew created
nyx.policy and asked that all traffic about this issue be posted
there. He specifically invited off-site posters to post to nyx.policy.

Andrew then closed my account at Nyx, declaring that my 3 messages a
day were "swamping the newsgroup" and that disagreeing with him in a
public forum constituted "harrassment". He did this despite his
declaration that "harrassment" was one of those "real world" issues
about which he would take no action without a court decree . He, of
course, had no such decree.

When I (and others) posted from NETCOM to nyx.policy, aburt then
complained to our sysadmins, stating that nyx.* was a local only
hierarchy and that off-site posts were not allowed. The most
significant detail of this action is that he complained *only* to the
postmasters of those who posted articles disagreeing with him; he did
not comoplain about *any* poster who supported him, including those
posting from the same ISP as Keith, keegan and I.
Futher specific examples of this discriminatory action include:
naql, McClatchie, Mancini et al posted many articles to nyx.* (and
continue to do so). Andrew filed no complaints about their postings,
as each supported aburt.
David Truland posted *one* article to nyx.misc; an article which was a
followup to one posted by Andreww Burt, which Andrew crossposted to
numerous groups, including nyx.misc. David does not support Andrew,
and a complaint was fired off to Davids sysadmins immediately, in
response to this singular followup.

That's where it sits now, essentially.


author: William Barwell

subject: Re: Plug Pulling at Nyx

text:
In article <[email]>, MACALD  <> wrote:

******************  Deleted  ******************

Sounds like Andrew Burt IS an asshole.  I got flamed by a few for
suggesting Andy's response to Kobby's complaint about Henry was
an unacceptable reaction to a bluff from Kobby.

Seems Burt is not the shining intellect some would wish us to think.

Henry should get a REAL ISP account.  Burt should pull his head out of
his ass, but according to above tales, it seems his chronic case may very
well be permanent by now.

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!