subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

His argument would be accepted- there is no contradiction involved.  He is
talking about the specific relationship which is Ohm's Law while NIST etc
are defining the unit called an Ohm. Saying R=E/I is defining resistance but
it is not "Ohm's Law" unless R is constant. That is Benj's point (and one
that is too often missed by those who should know better- hence what
Halliday and Resnick as well as other reputable texts emphasise).


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
[email] wrote:

Too trite and I tire of this.

The relationship R=E/I is always true for all materials at the macro level
because it is a definition that has one, and only one, condition which is
that the R can not contain any sources.

What Georg Ohm said in 1827 was not R=E/I, but something a bit more
complex.

Feel free to read what he actually wrote:

http://www.mb.fh-nuernberg.de/bib/textarchiv/Ohm.Die_galvanische_Kette.pdf

The simple fact is that the relationship E=IR is now called Ohm's Law.

Whether the relationship E=IR should or should not be called Ohm's Law
is a semantic and historical arguement, but the fact is that's what it
is called.

And again, the relationship is always true because it is a definition.

Your arguement on what to call this relationship is about as usefull
as arguing acetylsalic acid isn't Aspirin unless it is made by Bayer
because Aspirin is (or was) a Bayer trademark.


author: Don Kelly

subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
"Don Kelly" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Fxnwk.250537$gc5.95455@pd7urf2no...
-------------------
Sorry- I should have said benj was right (even though I don't always agree
with him) rather than jimp.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
Don Kelly <[email]> wrote:

By that logic nothing ever follows Ohm's law since there is nothing
with a constant, fixed resistance though the change may not be
measureable.

However, the General Conference on Weights and Measures held by the
International Bureau of Weights and Measures, the organization chartered
with the maintenance of the International System of Unit (SI), defines the
ohm as a derived unit equal to E/I.

The SI does not arm wave about linear, non-linear, diodes, temperature
coefficients, or anything else, they simply define R=E/I.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, [email] wrote:

That I know.  The question is why.

That I already know.

I thought that electromagnetic fields propogated at C only in free space.
Doesn't a wire provide significant resistance?

Are you saying that low voltage electricity travels at the same velocity
as high voltage electicity?


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, [email] wrote:

I looked up voltage on Wikipedia, and was embarrased to see that it is
defined as the ability to overcome electrical resistance.  So it is
tautologically true that a higher voltage can overcome the greater
resistance of the smaller conductor.

But that doesn't help me at the physics level, even though the definition
works great for engineering purposes.

Cool. That is precisely what I am trying to figure out presently.  I am
getting the idea that my current (no pun intended) understanding is
defective, or at least, grossly inadequete.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
[email] wrote:

Try this simple way of looking at it:

Imagine one free electron in your conducting wire, initially at rest.
It is then accelerated by the applied voltage, and speeds up,
travelling down the wire. Eventually it will scatter off one of the
atoms in the wire, and stop. Then the applied voltage accelerates it
again, and the cycle is repeated.

Increasing the voltage increases the electron acceleration, and so
it will travel (on average) faster to its next collision.  Thus the
overall average electron speed is increased -- hence the current
increases.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
[email] wrote:

Yes.

Yes.

The time between flipping the switch and when everything settles down
to the steady DC state is the transient time and you use transient
analysis to determine what is happening at any given point in time.

Basically when you flip the switch you've generated a pulse, the leading
edge of which propagates at the VOP to the other end.

Once the pulse gets to the end, you are back to DC.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

-------------------------------
Except in all engineering and physics texts and most references on the net
which do include the factor of linearity. The remaining net references
(particularly those with a pie with E,I and R ) in practice, stick with
constant R without explanation.
---------------------

---------------------------------
------
And the actual definition of "Ohm's Law", which is still in use today,
(which you apparently haven't looked up) includes the "directly
proportional" factor (R being a CONSTANT of proportionality).

I know that E=IR and variants are "called" Ohm's Law. It's a bit like
calling every mother a hooker because she has slept with a man. The  fact is
that you are supporting sloppy usage, not a definition of Ohm's Law.

I know the reason that it is commonly called Ohm's Law (but in practice,
only applied where it actually is Ohm's Law (R constant)) but, at some level
of understanding of circuit analysis, the difference should be known.

I think we have beaten this pretty well to death.

 Now do you think that Thevenin's Theorem or loop and node analyses are
always valid?


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
Don Kelly <[email]> wrote:

According to all the standards organizations (SI, ISO, NIST, IRRM, etc.)
the ohm is DEFINED as E/I so you are both wrong.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

That is the definition of the UNIT  "ohm"  I have no argument there.

  It is NOT the definition of Ohm's "Law" which is the linear relationship
that he discovered (for the materials he tested and over specific ranges of
operation - hence the term "ohmic material". In other words, there is a
constant of proportionality between Voltage and current and this is called
"R" rather than "K" or "Bob" The only variable constant of proportionality
is "De Bouguerre's Factor" which fits whatever is needed to make the numbers
right.

Ohm's Law is meaningless for non-linear elements but very useful for linear
elements.
Certainly for a circuit with a linear and non-linear part such that
V=2*I +0.5I^2  you could then write an equivalent R' =0.5I  (in ohms) but
that would be useless in trying to find the current for a given voltage as
R'I is still 0.5I^2.

 In addition, for circuits with non-linear elements, the nice circuit
techniques that we have all used are ratshit except for Kirchoffs Laws as
they all depend on linearity. So, we go to either non-linear analysis which
is fine in simple cases but a bugger in others or go to small signal
analysis which assumes linearity in a localized region.


author: Salmon Egg

subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In article <g9r9ts$mdt$[email]>,
 [email] wrote:

There is a wave guide mode usually designated TEM (for transverse
electric and magnetic field) that approximates typical transmission
lines well. The wave speed is that corresponding to what plane wave in
an infinite medium surrounding the conductors (presuming it to be
homogeneous). The speed of the wave can be calculated using inductance
and capacitance per unit length measured at zero frequecy.

That is a fact!

Bill


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
[email] wrote:

You mean why does Ohm's Law work?

The simple answer is you start with Maxwell and work your way into Ohm.

It was a homework problem and extended classroom discussion when I went to
school. Feel free to have the experience.

You can't get there without math.

Yes, but resistance has nothing to do with the velocity of propagation,
that is determined by the dielectric constant.

The velocity of propagation or velocity factor is a parameter that
characterizes the speed of an electomagnetic wave through a medium.

The VOP of free space is 1.

The VOP of a medium is the reciprocal of the square root of the dielectric
constant of the medium.

For a bare wire in air the VOP is about 0.99 as the dielectic constant
of air is about 1.0005.

For a wire covered with solid polyethylene the VOP is about 0.66 as
the dielectric constant of polyethylene is about 2.25.

Yes, the velocity of propagation depends only on the dielectric constant
of the propagation medium.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, [email] wrote:

Cool.  Thanks.

Thanks.

That makes sense.  Thanks.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
Don Kelly <[email]> wrote:

OK, so in spite of the fact that the definition of the resistance of
an object in ohms is the voltage applied across the object in volts
divided by the current through the object in amps with the only condition
being that the object can not contain either voltage or current sources,
you are going to keep on arm waving.

Fine.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, Salmon Egg <[email]> wrote:

OK.

Say you have a souce of power (say, a hydro-powered generator) and you
want to transmit that power to a remote location.  Let's say that the
generator is designed to work properly at 600 volts AC.

You could transmit all that power at 600v through thick wires. Or you
could tranform the electricity to 23,000v and use much thinner wires.

Same amount of power (ignoring the relatively minor transformation
losses), but thinner wires can handle it without adverse consequences.

At a physical level, what is the difference? How can so much power get
crammed through a thin wire per interval of time?

I guessed that the electrons are moving faster, but you say that is
incorrect.  So what is the answer?

Are the electrons packed more densely at higher voltage?


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, [email] wrote:

Pretty much.

Ohm's law is an abstraction of physical phenomenon.  We measure various
aspects of electricity, and create a tautology by saying that if you
multiply two of them, the third is defined as the product.  It works
perfectly.  You can manipulate these measurements any way you like, and
you will always end up with the answer being correct. If you have any two
of them, the third is trivially easy to deduce.

But what I am asking about is not manipulation of abstractions.   I am
asking about what is happening on a physical level.

I cannot discover how the same amount of power can go through a thinner
wire if the voltage is increased?  Bullshit.  At some point, the
phenomenon was discovered, and the explanation led to the math.  It was
not the other way around.

All the math does is to make it easy to get a correct answer, whether
you understand the undelying phenomenon or not.

Interesting.

See?  This is the problem I always have with mathematical descriptions of
physical phenomenon.

The VOP depends entirely on the physical properties of the medium. We take
that physical property, run it through a mathematical function, and define
the answer to be the diaelectric constant of the medium.

But when described mathematically, we go backwards.  We take the
abstraction, the answer to an arithmetic problem, the dielectric constant,
and say that the VOP depends upon it.

It is true that one can calculate VOP using this method.  But this method
does nothing to explain what the heck is going on in the real world.

Fascinating.  In both cases, the copper is the same.  The area AROUND the
copper determines the VOP of the circuit.

Why is that?  What the heck is going on?

And what determines the dielectric constant of the propogation medium?  I
take it that this is not a mystery.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
---------
Certainly you can define resistance  by R= E/I, and define its unit as the
Ohm.
That is not a problem.  A resistance is a resistance even if not constant. I
am not arguing with you regarding that and have no objection to the use of
this relationship (even though it really doesn't do anything useful in the
non-linear case). NIST, etc are doing this.

The problem is that  R=E/I ( however useful) is NOT Ohm's Law EXCEPT when R
is constant.
In other words, Ohm's Law is more restrictive than R=E/I even though it
takes the same form. Too often this restriction, which is important, is
ignored.

There has been a decline in some (but mainly the more simplistic sources) of
the on-line literature which omit  mention (even though they use it) of the
important factor that is intrinsic to Ohm's Law - a "directly proportional"
relationship between current and voltage or "R is a constant of
proportionality..."  as indicated in reputable texts and references. Both of
these terms imply constant R.
I am not  trying to redefine "Ohm's Law" but am, just as Halliday & Resnick,
as well as Fitzgerald, etc and others in basic circuits texts pointing out
this fact (even Wikipedia cites the "direct proportionality" relationship ).

 NIST etc, are not defining Ohm's Law and I am trying to present the factual
difference between Ohm's Law and R=E/I. This is hardly handwaving.
Sure I am being pedantic because I don't like to see the essential basis
that made it a "Law" (as relationships that were observed tended to be
called) in the first place being ignored.
    --

Don Kelly [email]
remove the X to answer


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
<[email]> wrote in message
news:g9ua63$c27$[email]...
==========
You are apparently confusing power with current.
Power is the product of voltage and current.

In any case the power that the generator provides is that required by the
load - the generator doesn't transmit anything except what the load needs
(plus losses).
So, if a load draws 1000KW at 600V, the current required ( single phase at
unity power factor) is 1667A which would require a very large conductor and
even at that, the voltage drop along the line would be large (as would be
the losses).  If the load draws 1000KW at 60000V then the current would
be17A which could be handled by a smaller conductor, with lower voltage
drops and less  less losses and overall the transmission cost would be
lower.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
[email] wrote:

Sorry, I have no idea how to explain how current works at the atomic
level without math.

You might try wikipedia and see what you can find.

In the real world an electromagetic wave slows down when it is travelling
through anything other than free space.

Again, I have no idea how to explain the details of this without math.

Because electromagnetic waves don't propagate inside the wire, they
propagate around the outside of the wire.

The atomic structure of the substance.

I would highly suggest doing searches along the lines of "wiki dielectric
constant" as well as the other things you are interested in.

Start with these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_constant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_Light


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
Don Kelly <[email]> wrote:

OK, so the bottom line is you don't like the phrase "Ohm's Law" which
says E=IR but are fine with resistance being defined as R=E/I.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, Don Kelly <[email]> wrote:

Could be.

Yep.  What I am trying to figure out is the physical phenomenon that
underly these numerical concepts.

Yes.  For purposes of my example, getting all the power of the falling
water to a remote location, we have to assume an appropriate load.  My
questioning has its genesis in power plants connected to the grid.
Geneally, our little hydro plants don't produce more tha the collective
load o the grid, so if we have eough water, we run full-bore.

So I'm approaching the question backwards.  I asked how/why the same power
could be transmitted through smaller wires if the voltage is increased.
Your answer is that the current drops.

So what is going on at the level of the electron?  On the high side of the
transformer, are fewer, more "enegetic" electrons flowing? Is that the
true meaning of voltage?  That the electrons move to a higher enegy state?
And does that mean that they occupy shells around the nucleus which are
further away from the nucleus?


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, "Szczepan Bia?ek" <[email]> wrote:

Yeah.  And those analogies screw me up, because they work pefectly
sometimes, and mislead at others.  I was using the plumbing analogy when I
imagined that the velocity of the electrons must incease at higher
voltage, given that the velocity of the water is greater at higher
pressures.

But I was wrong.  Apparently the velocity is dependent upon the dialectric
constant of the material surrounding the conductor.

Yep.

So are the electrons packed together more densely at higher voltages?
Just like the gas molecules at higher psi? ISTM that the main difference
between the two models is that gas can be compressed, while liquids
cannot.  So can electricity be "compressed" into higher voltage?

Or is the analogy imperfect and misleading in this application?


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
In sci.physics.electromag, [email] wrote:

Good answer. I always respect "I don't know".  Most folks don't seem to
know what they don't know.

Yep.  That is clear. The question is why.

The math seems to make it easy for lots of folks to manipulate all these
parameters without a real understanding of the underlying phenomenon.
For example, did Ohm know anything about electrons, or any other subatomic
particles?

Yep. And some materials allow such a field to build and grow quickly,
while others don't.  I wonder why. What is it about these materials?  What
does it mean for the field to occupy the same physical space aroud the
conductor as the insulator?  How is the insulator interacting with the
field?

Wonderful.  Thanks.


subject: Re: Basic Question

text:
----------------------------
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
-------------
Twisting- shame on you.

Ohm's Law is NOT  E=IR nor is it R=E/I nor is it I=E/R- in fact none of
these
EXCEPT when R is constant. The definition of Ohm's Law includes this
important factor.
Not my definition but the definition that is accepted world wide.

 --

Don Kelly [email]
remove the X to answer


author: just me

subject: Re: What's in a Job Title ? Yeah, Really!

text:
cgb <[email]> wrote:

Last year my son finished his grade 12, and we were discussing his
future and what he wanted to do with his life. He had done well in
math and physics and was looking at either going to a trade school,
or into engineering.

I told him, if you want to go to a trade school, be the best
technician you can be, enjoy your profession. But please; do not
spend the rest of your life wishing you were an engineer!

Cheers


author: George

subject: HR recovery time after exercise

text:
I read somewhere that a measure of one's fitness is how quickly the HR
drops after exercise.  Does anyone have a formula for this?  For
example, if my HR is at 150 bpm while running on a treadmill, and I
stop, how long should it take to decrease to a certain number?  I'm a 50
year old guy in good shape.  Thanks.


author: Kolaga Xiuhtecuhtli

subject: Re: HR recovery time after exercise

text:
After modest exercise, your HR should return quickly to normal.
But a hard workout will result in longer elevated HR.  If you
run a sprint and your HR returns to resting quickly then you
should sprint harder.

George wrote:


author: Peter L Reader

subject: Re: HR recovery time after exercise

text:
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:03:21 GMT, George <[email]>
wrote:

Well, I've been power-walking 50-60 minutes a day for almost a year
since my bypass, with my hr up to 120-122 or so, and it starts slowing
down almost immediately after I stop, to about 90 in five minutes or
less.  I can actually notice the slowing as I time my count, from the
rate at the beginning of the 15 seconds to the rate at the end...I'm
63 and a little heavy.

Peter L. Reader, posting from sunny Portland, Oregon
[email]
---------------


author: Bruce

subject: Re: HR recovery time after exercise

text:
In sci.med.cardiology
George <[email]> wrote:

There is no formula.  The research shows a drop of 42bpm in two minutes.
If you are interested, I can dig up the relevant studies on medline.

Bruce


author: Chris Malcolm

subject: Re: HR recovery time after exercise

text:
[email] (Bruce) writes:

Doesn't it depend on the heart rate you start from? From a high rate
I'll drop 40 in a minute, but dropping the last ten can take several
minutes (59 yer old male with mild angina).


subject: Re: HR recovery time after exercise

text:
Does that mean that a drop of 42 bpm in two minutes is average?  Mine drops
about that much after one and a half minutes after running 20-30 minutes.
Thanks.

Bruce wrote:


author: Peter Andersen

subject: Tektronix 465 - serial number

text:
Hi

I have stumbled over a nice old Tektronix 465 in a extreamly good condition.
I looks bran new, and everything works perfectly.
I am just wondering about when is has been made. The serial number is
708891. Is this a new or old production? I have found a manual for 465 but
it refers to a serial number that starts with a Bxxxxxx.

Peter


author: carneyke

subject: Re: Tektronix 465 - serial number

text:
On Feb 23, 3:59 am, "Peter Andersen" <[email]>
wrote:

It was probably made in the UK or Holland


author: Andreas Tekman

subject: Re: Tektronix 465 - serial number

text:
On 23 Feb., 09:59, "Peter Andersen" <[email]> wrote:

7xxxxx is definetely Heerenveen/Netherland prodution. UK/Channel
Islands would be 1xxxxx. Late unit, not latest but one of the last
made in NL. Has all updates/changes the Bxxxxx manuals show. So the
Bxxxxx Manual is perfect for this scope you mention .

Looks it has been taken well care for, so you will enjoy it for a long
time. The electrolytc capsin LV pwr supply might cause some trouble
sooner or later, but this can be easily fixed.

Check the free manuals at bama.sbc.edu

hth,
Andreas


subject: Re: Tektronix 465 - serial number

text:
On 23 Feb., 14:22, "Peter Andersen" <[email]> wrote:

Tek465 clearly outperforms a PM3217. And workmanship, durability: Tek
465 is really preferred.

Later Philips model got better, compared with a Tek.

My personal opinion: Sell the Philips. Keep the Tek, it will serve you
well..

hth,
Andreas


subject: Re: Tektronix 465 - serial number

text:
Andreas Tekman wrote:

Thanx. Yes, it says on the rear: Made in Holland.

Even though my Philips PM3217 is newer the 465 is a vbetter replacement and
in a better condition.


author: baylor

subject: Newbie needs basic help

text:
i'm an AI grad student who's a bit disappointed to find that the AI
field isn't interested in making computers act like humans (it's a
common misconception; oh well, live and learn)

i'm a programmer at heart and my interests lie in making computer
programs that can act like living creatures (which, to be fair, has
limited practicality; i believe only games, simulations and training
programs have stated a need for this). i believe one school refers to
this as Computational Cognitive Modeling. A suggestion was made that
maybe i'd be better off studying cognitive science

Here's my question - what is cognitive science? Despite searching the
Web, i haven't found a decent definition

i know ACT-R was done by a psychologist, but the competing SOAR was
done by an AI person. The c4 architecture is done by an AI person in
MIT's Media Lab, which is somewhat cross-disciplinary. The big human
simulation project at ICT at USC is in their AI group (i think). i
like what i've read of Steven Pinker, who's a cogsci guy

The cogsci program at my school (UMinn) only offers two classes (intro
to cogsci and proseminar in cogsci), but requires us to take AI 1 in
the CS program and Human Learning in the Pysch program

Could someone help me out here? Specific questions include
- What is cogsci? (assuming there is an official description)
- What do PhDs in cogsci do?
- What are good Web sites for cogsci?
- Any magazines, books or conferences?
- How much is computer related? Is there a place for us comp people?
- Is there an FAQ for this? (i searched this group and didn't see one,
  although it could be hidden in the large s/n ratio here)

Thanks

-baylor


author: Steve Gerrard

subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
"baylor" <baylor@no_spam.ihatebaylor.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I agree with Joseph and Lester. Cognitive Science is an area in which people
in a variety of fields specialize. Neuro-physiologists study neurons;
behaviorists do experiments on bats; philosophers debate definitions;
mathematicians discuss the computability of mind (and the computability of
computability...).

Be a programmer in AI who specializes in cog-sci. I would focus on "common
sense" - it is the hardest thing to program, and the lack of it is the
easiest thing to spot in a pretend-human.

Marvin Minsky wrote about the difficulties of programming robots to build
with blocks in the Society of Mind. One of the biggest hurdles? Convincing
the robot, so to speak, that it could not take a block from the bottom of a
tower as the next block to put on top of the tower. Not obvious to a
computer program, but just common sense to us.

There are people who work on this, but I'm sure they can use your help...

-Steve Gerrard


author: Joseph Legris

subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
baylor wrote:

I like the definition once used by UCSD:

"Cognitive Science is the scientific study of the mind, the brain, and
intelligent behavior, whether in humans, animals, machines, or the
abstract. It is a multidisciplinary approach that blends anthropology,
computer science, psychology, neuroscience, linguistics, sociology and
philosophy."

As you can see, CS is right in there. The FAQ at UCSD is a good starting
point:

http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/cogsci/undergraduate/FAQ-2002.html

But if you want it all go here:

http://cognet.mit.edu/MITECS/Front/introduction.html

And don't forget Google.

A good introductory book with a historical perspective is "The Mind's
New Science, A History of the Cognitive Revolution" by Howard Gardner
(1987, Basic Books).


author: Lester Zick

subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 00:13:05 -0600, baylor
<baylor@no_spam.ihatebaylor.com> wrote:

My take on cognitive science is not the conventional academic
approach, whatever that may be. I come from many years as a systems
programmer on mainframes. So, if you're interested in programming,
then learn to program, develop an extensive understanding of machines,
languages, and software. Then naturally you try to apply the mechanics
to the theory or theories of cognition that interest you.

Personally, I am not too happy with conventional theoretical
approaches to the problem. But my impression is that circuit engineers
and programmers will find workable solutions before the theorists do
because they are considerably more pragmatic and have support of the
market for successful ideas. They've already solved problems that have
commercial viability and will continue to do so.

Regards - Lester

remove DEL in address for email


author: Michael

subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
baylor <baylor@no_spam.ihatebaylor.com> wrote in news:5bjt6v4bgosf3oqufmvauipj1ukj1rm3qp@
4ax.com:

Baylor, what do you mean 'act like living creatures'? What would it be for?
Do you want to have sex with it?
Or do you want to discuss with it problems of medieval poetry?
Or do you want to send it work at a plant instead of you?
Well, I am a psychologists and I am looking to make a living creature behave like a computer. Where
would you advise me to start?
Btw, can cars act like cats?
My point is: living creatures have so many facets to act on; you have to decide first which of the facets
you are interested in. Even if it is brain's activity you have to specify if it is perception, or will power, or
speech,  or pure reasoning, or consciousness, or something else.
Anyway, by definition modelling implies emphasizing one facet forgetting all the rest. This means that
you can make a full body living creature only with the help of your girl friend (I assume you're a male). It
will take some time.
Good luck,
Mike
 (which, to be fair, has
rge s/n ratio here)


subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
"Steve Gerrard" <[email]> wrote in

Here is a citation relevant to the topic, I believe:
"The scientific outlook, as it crystallized in the first half of our century, was based on two tacit
assumptions. The first, expressed apocryphally, says: "A theory entertained by an investigator about
some object is not a product of that object's activity." The second says: "The object does not depend
on the circumstance that a theory reflecting that object exists."
	The first postulate registers the investigator's dominant position vis-a-vis the object: There are
no objects that surpass the investigator, which enable him to discover his goals and to help or hinder
him in realizing them. One way of expressing this postulate is to say that nature is neither benevolent
nor malevolent. The second postulate enables the investigator to speak of properties of laws inherent
in objects. These are assumed to exist objectively and are only registered by the investigator.
	If, on the other hand, we admit that a scientific conception may influence an object, then a
theory that reflects some regularity may change this regularity and so may falsify itself. This situation
is not the same as that in quantum physics. There the findings obtained by the investigator depend
upon or are even the results of interactions between the object and the investigator's apparatus; but
the findings do not influence the properties of the physical process which they reflect. Thus, Planck's
constant does not depend on the fact that it was published. The scientific conception, not being a
physical event, is not a property of the apparatus.
	The abovementioned postulates arose in the context of physical investigations. The study of
mental phenomena has a long history in which teleological, psychiatric, and specifically scientific lines
of thought crossed. The end of the last and the beginning of the present century were characterized by
attempts to turn psychology into a science. The most successful disciplines, especially physics, were
to serve as models.
	The nature of mental phenomena is fundamentally different from that of physical phenomena.
Whereas the "given" confronting the physicist is the huge brilliant world of things, the "given" of the
psychologist is the dark internal world, ethereal and difficult to capture. Directing his sight inward, the
psychologist attempts to represent this "given" by special concepts which, when synthesized
(successfully or otherwise), appear to him as "mental phenomena." This process has been called
introspection. The work of the psychologist then consists in projecting this result of introspection upon
other thinking and feeling beings.
	The other's inner world is concealed from the investigator. He observes only behavior.
However, to the extent that his own behavior is generated by his own psyche, the psychologist
complements his objective observations of the other's behavior by the other's psyche. Such is the
mechanism of the psychologist's work. Different schools of psychology offered different justifications
for this mechanism, but it was always present.
	The first decades of our century saw a radical change in the direction of psychological
research, namely, a conscious turning away from the introspective method. In the United States F. L.
Thorndyke proposed to abandon all attempts at introspective analysis and to undertake an
investigation of the "actual givens" of behavior. The behaviorist approach carried the promise of
making psychology scientific. It instigated the notion of the "black box" with the stimuli as inputs and
responses as outputs, both of which can be registered and measured. The problem of psychology
became that of discovering the functional connections between stimuli and responses. The entire field
of "mental phenomenology" remained outside the realm of scientific analysis.
	There is a remarkable contradiction in the behaviorist scheme. Quite clearly the response of
the subject is to a considerable degree determined by meaning. But a text obtains a meaning only in
the inner worlds of the subject and the experimenter. Therefore, in order to clarify just what is a
stimulus, the experimenter must turn to his own inner world, that is, perform an introspective act.
Moreover, he must suppose that the meaning is understood by the subject, that is, he must perform a
projective act-attribute a psyche to the subject.
	The "stimulus-response" scheme, having castrated psychology, does not permit the
experimenter to take note even of such an ordinary occurrence as a deception perpetrated by the
subject during an experiment, since this requires the experimenter to penetrate into the subject's inner
world, which is forbidden. Thus the proscription of introspection either leads to a dead end or to a
camouflaged utilization of it, that is, to self-deception.
	Besides behaviorism, there were attempts to by-pass introspection by way of investigating
regularities in the functioning of the brain. However, here, too, there is no way of avoiding introspection.
The point is that physiological states must be interpreted. For instance, it is not possible to register
pain by any apparatus. It is only possible to measure some physical parameter which the
experimenter can interpret as "pain."
In doing so, the experimenter must refer to his own unique inner world. Thus, resorting to physiology
does not remove the necessity of an independent approach to mental phenomena. We are simply led
back to the classical philosophical problem of the relation between mind and matter.
	The way in which concepts of mind and matter were combined was always determined by the
intellectual techniques of a given society. At times, there were models based on the part-whole
relationships; at other times models based on the notion of "penetration" and other relationships,
rather simplistic from a modern point of view. These models tended to establish a subordination of the
one to the other. An example: "Although the soul has no form, it acquires (as light does) the extent and
the form of the body in which it lives" (Chatterjee and Datta, 1954). In other areas we now have more
sophisticated techniques of speculation. Many philosophical problems have been revived and have
created their own disciplines. For instance, the perennial question of whether the universe is finite or
infinite is now examined in the context of relativity theory. Discussions of this problem in the language
of "common sense" are no longer effective. The problem of the relation between mind and matter,
however, has a different status. For the modern engineer the very existence of mental phenomenology
is far from obvious. For him the only existing events are those that can be at least potentially
accommodated in behavioral schemes. The triumph of cybernetics is not limited to the appearance of
new effective methods of analyzing complex systems; it portends also a radical narrowing of the
ontological field within which the problems of scientific analysis must be confined.
	It is amusing to note that the question of whether artifacts can be equipped with minds has
been turned into the question of whether machines can think and that this question was answered by
Turing in the best behaviorist tradition. Evidently one of the principal methodological problems in the
investigation of complex systems is that of developing models of reality in which structural relations
between mental and physical phenomenology can be established. Depending on how the problem is
solved, we shall either be able to view systems as entities "endowed with intellect" or will have to
content ourselves with two unconnected approaches and formalize our capitulation as a principle
analogous to Bohr's principle of complementarity (Bohr, 1955).
	In this book, we shall try to sketch some approaches that may be useful for integrating the two
directions of research."


subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
OK, i can be more specific. i want to write a computer program where
the computer controls virtual characters that the user, in a perfect
world, can't tell from regular humans

To be even more specific, these characters would be used in a game. Or
in a training program. Or in a simulation

Since these characters are virtual, my current ambition does not
include having sex with them. But thanks for asking

The obvious point here is that AI is not interested in making programs
that react in ways that humans do. They're interested in making
programs that solve simple, math-based problems perfectly or as nearly
perfect as possible. AI programs route traveling sales people, take
calculus exams, examine blood samples and beat chess grandmasters, but
they do not act like humans nor are they asked to

This definitely isn't what i'm interested in as it doesn't help in my
particular application. i also don't think it's true, neither by
definition or in practice. Cognitive architectures such as ACT-R,
SOAR, c4 and a host of less well known ones (ABCD, SHOR, AADD, OODA,
etc.) do not focus on a single facet such as spatial rotation of
objects, depth perception or autostereograms. While they don't do
everything a mind can do, they certainly deal with more than a single
facet

A few universities (UCF, Old Dominion, Georgia Tech, Oregon State,
etc.) offer PhDs in Simulation and Modeling that seems to focus on the
kind of things i'm interested in (virtual humans). Their work appears
to be predominantly used for training and simulation, primarily for
the military. To the best of my knowledge, no one has attempted to
have sex with these models

Being new to this and not being a licensed psychologist, i can't say
authoritatively, but you might want to talk to the various
engineering- and math-oriented AI groups. While some of them have
tried to make computers act like dogs and racoons (sorry, no
cat-to-car conversions that i know of), many of the people i've met
appeared to be computers but, i was assured, were really people

Also, if you want your cat to act like a Microsoft product, perhaps
you could have it crash and die every couple of hours

Hope that helps

-baylor


subject: Re: Newbie needs basic help

text:
Thank you for taking my clumsy jokes, Baylor!
So, what have we got here?
1) a monitor with some pictures, or text, or ANYTHING at all, which performs to some rules [aka
program] determined by you
2) a human being (P1) who can interact with this monitor according to the same rules
3) you and me wondering: 'Will P1 believe that s/he interacts with a living person?' and 'What should
these rules be so that s/he would believe'?
Result: the problem of defining 'what acting of a living creature is' transforms into 'persuading P1 that
some action on the monitor was initiated by another human (P2)'. It is a matter of BELIEVING.
Technically you can claim ANY (or almost any) crap as made by P2.
If we reword the problem (to accomodate to a videogame situation): what would be some specific
features that would lead to believe it is done by P2? Ask salespeople, lawyers, doctors, writers,
teachers, politicians -- those whose trade is to decieve -- they will provide you with a list for a
reasonable fee.
If you want to have the answer in 'scientific' rigorous terms -- kind of an ontology of what a living
creature is -- it is a completely different problem. But as I see your intention you will need the first --
strictly pragmatic -- decision.
For reference:
1) I've heard of a computer game called Tomoguchi (Japanese). It's a computer simulation of a living
creature. Isn't it what you want?
2) As a philosopher I bet for US$ 10,000: I will prove ANYTHING you can describe as a result of human
activity.
We are having a nice conversation!
Hope to hear from you soon,
Mike


author: Dragon's Girl

subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
Hey, I said I did a 'quick' check and found some interesting things.
I'm not doing an in depth study of the woman because I don't care.

What I do care about is that you guys just keep posting what you think
is nonsense, over and over again, to CPS group.
What is the purpose of that?

None of us care about Lyme...if we did we would be posting to the lyme
group.


subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
Why don't you look up her criminal record yourself online so that you
can be done with this stuff and stop posting to our group?


subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
I did a quick search on 'kathleen dickson' and either a) this lady on
your group is posing as THE Kathleen Dickson, or b) She is Kathleen
Dickson and is pretty respected member of the medical and parental
rights community.
I don't know if this lady is posing as, or is the real thing, but you
should check into it yourself, as she has done a great deal of
research, obviously, for Lyme disease.
Not that I give a rats ass...I'd prefer not to ever hear her name again.


author: lisasawitch

subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
Dragon's Girl wrote:

You're missing the point. We KNOW what her criminal record is. However,
she insists she's been proven innocent. She insists that she never
lies. She insists on continuing to make an ass of herself.

SHE puts her credibility at issue. So these are reasonable questions.
We already know all the answers anyway. Everything has been posted
here.

By her.


subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
Dragon's Girl wrote:

Gimme a break. Respected? By whom? By her one psychotic friend? She a
big fat liar and if you think otherwise eitehr a) you're not thinking
or b) you need to think again--this time try using your brain or c) you
don't know what you're talking about or d) all of the above

She posts babbling inchorent nonsense. She's a paranoid schizoprhenic
with psychotic features who is connecting dots that aren't there to
make up a picture of a global conspiracy theory starring HER.

Well there we agree totally.


subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
So? Do you realize that you're posting this using an alias, posing as
"chuck." Do you see the hypocrisy of that? What about your other
aliases? Iamnotlisa? Speaking of which, what about Lisa's many aliases?
And filthyahole's?

Geez.

Now can you ANSWER THE QUESTIONS KATHLEEN?

KATHLEEN IT AIN'T FUNNY STOP THE LIES YOU LYING LIAR!

Featured in Court & Police

Kathleen Dickson
Published on 5/8/2004

Kathleen Dickson, 46, of 23 Garden St., Pawcatuck, was charged Thursday

with being a fugitive from justice.

© The Day Publishing Co., 2004

Featured in Court & Police

Kathleen Dickson

Published on 5/9/2004

Kathleen Dickson, 45, of 23 Garden St., Pawcatuck, was charged Friday
with second-degree harassment and threatening.

© The Day Publishing Co., 2004

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS KATHLEEN

Let's see how you like it kathleen EVERY time you post, I will change
the title of the thread and I will post these questions until you
answer them one by one and answering them means NOT talking about
mcsweegan or former governor rowland and all your typical diversionary
crap anyway.

PLUS you are cross posting ONCE AGAIN TOTALLY OFF TOPIC and you're
selfish to do this to one newsgroups CRIMINAL to do it to multiple
newsgroups--yes here is your "crime": You are preventing people who
need help from getting help for your selfish personal reasons that you
are so completely egocentric along with delusional paranoid
schizophrenic with psychotic features that you just can't see past your

own twisted delusional psychotic personal agenda--which ought to be
about getting your kids back and solving your own enormous problems in
life instead of trying to solve anyone else's. By preventing people
from getting help you are responsible for the consequences. Surely
people are dying as a result so you are a murderer (trying out a little

kathleen "logic" here. So you are now being reported to the DOJ FBI and

CIA and WHO and UN and DCF and the federal and state courts and
homeland insanity department and all over the planet as a murderer.

How do you like them apples?

Now answer the questions. And stop the off topic cross posting. Answer
the questions TRUTHFULLY for a change. Focus on the question. If
there's a question yOU don't understand which is hard to believe given
your self declared genius IQ, let us know and we'll rephrase it.

Don't LIE as you do and don't try your diversionary tactics. Ignore
this and I will keep reposting it kathleen. Not only that but your
silence will be construed as admissions to all OF the facts listed as
questions.

PS: This is NOT "taunting" You have put your credibility at issue. You
have repeatedly said that you NEVER lie. We deserve the answers to
these questions. Straight answers.

REPOST:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.diseases.lyme/browse_thre...

Nope we're talking about YOU. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

And come back and tell us when Steere or McSweegan or anyone else is
actually charged with your "Lyme Crymes" instead of telling us what
you, in all your infinite wisdom, think will happen.

Now let's talk not about who WILL be convicted but WHO already has
been--YOU.

Here's the question list. One by one give us some answers. Your post is

just like the Bush White House trying to DIVERT attention from what
Karl Rove did to Joe Wilson--by attacking him AGAIN.

Nope answer the questions kathleen. Stop trying to change the subject.

I know you're delusional but try to focus. Here is a list of questions
for YOU. We've already heard your ramblings about 100,000 times. Now
dish some TRUTH for a change--I'm going to leave space between the
questions for your answers:

Was your case appealed and was your conviction overturned?

And what isn't true? Everything can be backed up with your own posts
kathleen. Not a big secret how people know since you posted it all
here.

Were you charged with and convicted of threatening and harassing
Jessica Gauvin?

Did you flee to Canada?

Did you tell everyone that your case was a custody case against DCF
when the truth was that it was a criminal case against you and your
kids had been taken away many months earlier and you didn't even appeal

that?

Did you threaten to bomb the stonington schools, joke or not?

Did you show up at your kid's safe house with a bag full of drugs
whether you meant to give them to your lawyer or not?

Come on specifically what isn't true?

You were charged tried and convicted in a court of law. Right or wrong,

admit or deny?

Now you say you've proven you're innocent.

In what court were your convictions overturned?

In fact, tell us what the charges were. Give some detail. What exactly
were you convicted of doing or threatening to do to Jessica Gauvin?

Tell us what your diagnosis was in the mental institution?

You admit or deny that your kids were taken away by child services in
CT?

Admit or deny you were charged with crimes?

Admit or deny you feld to canada?

Admit or deny you were convicted?

Admit or deny you were institutionalized in a mental ward locked wing?

Admit or deny that your convictions were never reversed, in fact you
never filed an appeal did you?

So who's lying about what?

Yeah sure, you say everyone lied about the charges. But that's not what

the court thought was it?

Did you register a website claiming on it you were working for Pfizer
at the time when you had "retired" years before?

Was Lymeraft which solicited funds for YOU, ever a proper legally
registered charity?

kathleen you're the liar here.

Do you really expect everyone to believe that the rest of the world is
crazy, not you?

And that the rest if the world has conspired to frame you? Because of
your lyme activism which you have even admitted amounts to more posting

on the internet than any real accomplishments?

Come on kathleen. What isn't true specifically issue by issue above.

Tell us specifically which items you say aren't true. We can go back
and find the posts where you admitted stuff and show what a liar YOU
are!

Chuck wrote:


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
Martian wrote:

Why did you leave?

What did you mean "Lisa is right"?

???


subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
Martian wrote:

Well, glad to see you back anyway.

You are too smart to hangout at Lymenet anyway.


author: Martian

subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
[email] wrote:

I think it was a combination of factors.

It's a secret code.


subject: Re: TROLL ALERT !!

text:
[email] wrote:

Easy to be too smart for the FLASH board.


author: Peter H.

subject: Different prescriptions.

text:
I have been suffering a great deal from head aches. It always felt
that it was behind my right eye.
I went to the optician and he gave me the following prescription for
the R:
  sph    cyl    axs    add
=0.50  -0.50    10    +2.0

This was very good, but I had to return as the vision on my left eye
became fuzzy. I had a retest and the left eye was sorted out but in
the mean time he changed the right eye also to:
   sph   cyl   axs    add
  +0.50 -0.50  180   +2.25
Is there a great deal of difference between the two prescriptions, as
I started
to feel uncomfortable again in my right eye.It is not as bad as before
but I think that is not as comfortable as before.
I hope you can help?


author: DonJan

subject: Re: Different prescriptions.

text:
[email] (Peter H.) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

DonJan:

When I was at Bausch&Lomb I learned that most (maybe all)
optomitrists, opticians, ophtalmalogists are ignorant in math, science
and optics. Their training being heavily weighted to bedside manner.

The difference you are seeing is the repeatability of the
measurements. Your problem could be in the perscription or in the
quality of the glasses. What if the center of the lens does not line
up with your pupil? Several times I've had to make them remake the
glasses because of this decentering problem.

Now if you have bifocals you have a second problem. You want the line
to be slightly below the system center so that you don't see the line
when you are looking ahead.

Rule number one. Never trust the seller, they (nearly all) don't know
what they are doing.


author: Bob May

subject: Re: Different prescriptions.

text:
I've found that headaches from glasses are more from the spacing of the
centers of the lenses than the actual prescription.  Then again, I've never
had a good binocular vision as my two eyes are quite disparate in their
prescriptions and the left eye is excellent for long range vision.


subject: Re: Different prescriptions.

text:
[email] (Peter H.) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

You might have gotten the lenses made wrong. The optician can check this.

My "eyeball headaches" come from computer usage. I am certain of it.


author: David Combs

subject: Re: Different prescriptions.

text:
In article <[email]>,
DonJan <[email]> wrote:
...

With bi- or tri-focals, I once found that when looking
at something straight and vertical, you of course see
a left-right "jump" or discontinuity at the "line"
("executive" type lens) -- but (again of course) as
I twist my head in azimuth, looking through only
one lens at a time, there is one angular-position
where there is *no* jump (a "fixed point" or something of
a mapping?) -- now, what I believe one (me, I) wants
is that that no-jump positon, when head is pointing
straight ahead towards that door-edge, that it be
right in the line-of-sight (for that eye) to the door-edge.

And for trifocals, the fixed-point-angle obeys not only
the above, but the *two* them (two lines) are pretty
darned close.

And ditto for the other eye.

What *I* experienced in one set of glasses was that
both zero-jump anglesd (left eye, right eye) were
fairly *wide*, "wall-eyed", sort of, in their angular
positions.

Now, I *tried* to explain it to the optician (who is convinced
that he knows *everything* and that customer knows *nothing* about
optics, etc!) -- and he truly is unable to understand what I
am talking about -- even when he puts on the glasses and
as I tell him to rotate his head left and right ...   :-(

PLEASE -- is there any standard optician-vocabulary that
I can use to explain this -- that he'll likely already
understand -- or at least that he'd *heard* before?

Thanks!

David


author: Charles

subject: Re: Different prescriptions.

text:
On 6 Feb 2004 18:35:22 -0800, [email] (Detector195)
wrote:

do you have glasses made for computer use?  I do.

For the OP.:  That looks like very little change to me.  I am no
expert, but what I see is the change from +2.0 to +2.25 add for
reading.  that will make a very minor difference in how far away
reading material from your eyes.  the angle change for the cylinder
correction, 10 degrees, quite minor.

that's what I think, maybe someone else disagrees.


author: Phil

text:
Call for an Impeachment Inquiry of Bush and Cheney,
Get Congress to Take Action

Sign our online Petition and read below for more information:

   http://www.votenader.org/get_involved/impeach.php

HEY DUDE WHERE'S MY BUDDY!!!???
COME BACK HOME MICHAEL!!!

Ok Michael, you've had your realpolitik fling with ex-General Wesley
Clark. Your endorsed Presidential candidate in the Democratic Primaries
has withdrawn. It is time for you to come home, to join your buddies and
resume your only genuine role which is that of defiance and resistance.
Compliance and assistance with the Democrats does not accord with your
past, your character, your bold writings and, most memorably, your long
corrosive assaults on the Party that betrayed the working classes and
plunged our country into corporate globalization. Remember, Michael,
you're the flinty man from Flint, Michigan. You've never forgotten your
roots. The heady Hollywood, Manhattan scene with the celebrities and
Academy Awards have never gotten to your head but rather have gotten
into your deserving pockets. How we all recall your standing before one
billion people in Los Angeles at the televised Academy Awards in 2003
and, breaking the customary cant of the awardees, throwing the gauntlet
down to George W. Bush and his "fictitious" war mongering.

Now the War has become a quagmire, with both Republicans and Democrats
complicit (check the votes in Congress). The Draft may be on the way. So
what are you doing going on the Al Franken Show very nearly breaking
down when Al Gore (he of the pro NAFTA/GATT, anti-worker, regime-change,
Iraq-bombing, lethal sanctions on half a million children
Administration) called and thought you were apologizing. You have
nothing to apologize for, Michael. Gore has a lot to apologize
for-blowing the election he won in Florida and the country as a whole
and for blowing, with Bill Clinton, the many opportunities the
rich-booming Nineties and the collapse of the Soviet Union gave this
country to turn a peace dividend into a pro-worker, pro-environment,
pro-consumer and anti-poverty resurgence.

Come back and join our Presidential campaign, Michael. Talk to those
"Reagan Democrats"-those 35% of union members who still vote Republican
and against their own interests-as only you can. Michael, if you go
pumping for the Democratic Party this year, just what are you going to
say to the unemployed steelworkers near Sparrows Point in Maryland? To
the megathousands of laid off textile and furniture workers in North and
South Carolina? To the abandoned auto workers waiting and waiting near
their empty factories that went to repressive countries? To the millions
of blue-collar workers, who fought our wars, only to learn that the two
parties won't fight for their company pensions and health insurance? Are
you going to tell them how the Democratic Party pushed through the WTO,
let their pensions erode or disappear, were too busy collecting checks
from the corporate bosses to pay attention to the corporate crime wave
that looted and drained trillions of dollars from millions of workers,
their retirement and small investments? Will you tell them that the
cowardly Democrats, who couldn't win the fewer elections they are now
not losing without the labor vote, won't even mount a determined drive
to repeal the notorious, union-blocking Taft Hartley Act?

How can you be free to be what you are, or to depress Bush's vote, to
jolt into consciousness the moribund Democratic Party?

Hey Dude, join your real buddies! The ones you may be thinking about
just don't fit either your message, your vision, or our website
VoteNader.org.

Come back home Michael. The workers and the youth of America are looking
for you.

Best regards,
Ralph Nader

P.S. Will you put this invitation on your website and see how your fans
     react to Michael Moore returning to the Nader 2004 presidential
     campaign? Patti Smith will reserve a big singing spot, for you, on the
     stage for the customary finale, PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER.

Wednesday April 14, 2004

Join the Call for an Impeachment Inquiry of Bush and Cheney
Help us Get Congress to Take Action

You can help the call for an impeachment inquiry of President Bush and
Vice President Dick Cheney. Sign our online Petition.

   http://www.votenader.org/get_involved/impeach.php

George W. Bush and Dick Cheney should be impeached for two reasons:

   They led the United States into an illegal, unconstitutional war in Iraq.
   They misled the Congress and the American people with five falsehoods that led to war.

All it takes is one Member of the House of Representatives to call for
an Impeachment Inquiry to start the process to investigate the two
grounds. If the House then votes by a simple majority for Articles of
Impeachment, the Senate would then undertake a trial of the President
and Vice President. They would only be convicted, and impeached, if
two-thirds of the Senate agrees.


author: EjP

subject: Re: Call for an Impeachment Inquiry of Bush and Cheney

text:
Phil wrote:

I have forwarded this to the appropriate abuse lines.  I'm
sure "Phil" won't be with us much longer.

-E


author: mikebr

subject: Help with outdoor  antenna selection

text:
I live in the Iowa City area near North liberty.

The stations are in Cedar Rapids or Wateloo  2o miles to 70 miles away
but I cannot receive simple ABC,NBC, CBS.

I have tried couple of amplified indoor antennas and truthfully
the passive antenna has better reception.

What is the best outdoor antenna on the market ?

I am confused about gain ...many outdoor old antennas
LPDA / Yagi only have 10 DB gain but indoor amplified ones promised
45db.  So am I to assume that directivity (of LPDA) and
line of sight are more critical than plain gain ?

On a side note why cannot the stations add a simple repeater between
Cedar Rapids & Iowa City ? Sounds like a conspiracy betwwen cable /
satellite firms & broadcasters (kidding)
but this is puzzling.

TIA


author: Steve Tomchuk

subject: Re: Help with outdoor  antenna selection

text:
Mike,

The 45 dB gain of the amplified antenna is the gain spec mainly of the
amplifier alone. If you feed the amp with noise or a poor signal you get
45 db better noise. You need to start with a decent feed off an outdoor
antenna. Then you can add a pole mounted line amp (better) or add the amp
at the output of the antenna line (not as good). Rat Shack has decent
antennae for the dollar IMO. You should be able to pick up a 20 to 70 mile
radius easily enough in low or high band VHF (ch 2 to ch 13) over flat
terrain. Any hills will knock that down in a hurry. UHF may be another
story unless they are putting out enough RF to fry migratory birds on the
way by the tx antenna (just pokin fun at you 'merkin UHF dudes).

Good luck,

Steve

mikebr wrote:


author: Doug Smith

text:
On 18 Jun 2002 20:31:30 -0700, mikebr <[email]> wrote:

FWIW, most of the transmitters are near Vinton, between CR and Waterloo,
about 50 miles from the university campus.  Exceptions are channel 28 (same
direction but only 27 miles away) and 12 and 20.  (which are 11 miles
east-northeast)

In general, amplified indoor antennas simply amplify noise.  You want to put
up the largest outdoor antenna you can get away with, as high and as clear
of obstructions as possible.  If you get an amplifier, get one that mounts
on the antenna itself.  (it will come in two parts, the other part being a
power supply that goes in the house)

It's hard to tell why some places have repeaters and others don't.  There
was no shortage of channels in that area.  I suppose there were enough big
antennas in Iowa City originally that nobody felt the need for a repeater,
and then cable came along and there was again no demand...


author: tmgroat"at"peakpeak"dot"com (Tim Groat

text:
On 18 Jun 2002 20:31:30 -0700, [email] (mikebr) wrote:

Yes, that's true. The "45dB" gain of the indoor job is in the
amplifier. The antenna itself has little gain, possibly even a loss at
many frequencies. So it amplifies the noise and interference just as
much as the desired signal, giving no significant improvement in the
reception (and perhaps overloading the TV tuner as well, which makes
things much **worse**).

The outdoor antenna has a chance to improve your signal-to-noise
ratio, improving your reception. Get the antenna up in the clear and
aim it for best reception.

By the way, the FCC regulates the noise figure of TV receivers (it's
in Part 15). Modern receivers are quite sensitive, so unless a
preamplifier is very quiet it's going to degrade the performance of
the set.

--KR0U

-- Tim Groat

To reply by e-mail, change the quoted words to
the corresponding punctuation marks.


author: GregS

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (mikebr) wrote:

http://www.magnumdynalab.com/x_aps13.htm


author: Michael Houghton

text:
Howdy!

In article <[email]>,
mikebr <[email]> wrote:
You might try http://www.antennaweb.com/antennaweb/

yours,
Michael


author: Harris

text:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna mikebr <[email]> wrote:

What channels are they on? My experience is that the VHF Low Band channels
(ch 2 through ch 6) are the hardest to receive well.

There is no substitute for a good outdoor antenna mounted as high as
possible. The height of your home and the terrain between you and the TV
stations are big factors.

And use good coaxial cable (RG-6 is better than RG-59).

Art Harris, N2AH


author: Bill Nelson

text:
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna mikebr <[email]> wrote:

I have Radio Shack's "fringe" antenna. I can receive a couple of UHF/VHF
stations that are 90+ miles away fairly well. There are some fairly tall
hills in the way at a distance of about 5 miles.

The stations that are only 30-40 miles distant come in fine, even when
the antenna is not aimed directly at them.

Yep. All an amplifier can do is make the S/N ratio worse. You need to
get an antenna up in the air where the S/N is improved. An amplifier
is seldom helpful, in my experience.

Stations often have an FCC restricted coverage area. No idea if this
is true in your case.


text:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:59:42 GMT, GregS <[email]> wrote:

That's indeed a very good antenna - but it's for FM radio.  It *might* get
him a decent NBC picture out of channel 6 in the Quad Cities but it's not
going to help much with the other channels.


text:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:56:46 +0000 (UTC), Bill Nelson <[email]> wrote:

The FCC doesn't restrict station coverage beyond the 100kw/600m maximum
(VHF-low).  (this has changed somewhat with the switch to digital, but that
hasn't applied for very long)

I would imagine that network affiliation agreements prevent stations from
establishing translators in the market area of an affiliate in another
market.  For example, I would imagine NBC would balk if Quad Cities
affiliate KWQC channel 6 tried to establish a translator in Iowa City, which
is part of Waterloo affiliate KWWL channel 7's market.  But that's got
nothing to do with the FCC.  (and would do nothing to prevent *KWWL* from
establishing a translator)

Of course it's always possible there are no channels available that Iowa
City translators could use without interfering with stations in other
cities.  However I think that's VERY unlikely.  (especially given that in
the last few years, they've managed to establish four low-power stations in
Cedar Rapids)


author: Jamie

subject: Audio Amp.

text:
I have inherited 2 Carvin DCA 800 audio amps.
  These units were pulled from service due to upgrade's.

   They are stereo units that put out 300 Watts RMS into
a 4 ohm load and 200 Watts RMS into a 8 ohm load.
   Also can be operated in bridge mode to generate 800 Watts
RMS at 0.05% THD.
  Very roughedly built for service..

   If some one is interesting you may make an offer.
Below is what it is.
http://www.carvinmuseum.net/decade/images/87-dca800amp.html


author: Michael A. Terrell

subject: Re: Audio Amp.

text:
Jamie wrote:

   Spam, off topic.  This is not a "For sale" newsgroup.  Any
electronics related sale messages belong on
<news:misc.industry.electronics.marketplace> or
<http://groups.google.com/group/news:misc.industry.electronics.marketplace?hl=en>
for Google users.


author: Eeyore

subject: Re: Audio Amp.

text:
Jamie wrote:

Carvins are most certainly not rugged if that's what you meant.

Graham


subject: Re: Audio Amp.

text:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Oh go play with your self, you little insignificant twit.

  I was only trying to find a value for them so that I could later
on decide what to do with them. I have no idea as what may happen
to them. I may Ebay them and it's none of your damn business as
why I ask for a value here. If I decide on booting them. It most
certainly wont be here.

    Don't you have anything else better to do other than trolling around
looking to terrorize someone ?

   I once thought you were among those that had a little common sense
and insight in the field that you portray your self in. Was I wrong in
that assumption? Or are you one of those that has to drill every one
else down in the mud so that you can stand on top, so they only see you?

    If this is case, I feel sorry for you. Why don't you stop picking
your nose, drooling over the keyboard when ever you think you've found
a target and crawl back under the rock that you emerged from.


subject: Re: Audio Amp.

text:
Jamie wrote:

   So, you think that the newsgroup charter and rules don't apply to
you, mister "Always wrong"?

   Grow up, get a life and drop the chip from your shoulder.


subject: Re: Audio Amp.

text:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Oh , the rules apply to every one! Get it?

   You can take what ever you want and twisted to any
  definition you'd like. It seems with some, the rules were
designed to be polymorphisized to one's will.

     Unless you have something more tangible to add to the subject
at hand that falls with in the boundaries? please don't bother me with
this petty drivel anymore.

    Have a good day.


subject: Re: Audio Amp.

text:
Jamie wrote:

   Here you go, mr Drivel:

<http://www.faqs.org/ftp/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/sci/sci.electronics-reorg>

misc.industry.electronics.marketplace    marketplace for electronics
components, equipment, and services

	Rationale:
	A reasonable portion of the existing traffic is persons and companies
	selling or wanting to buy electronics components, equipment and
	services.  The postings can be categorized as persons at companies
	needing production quantities of scare parts, people cleaning out
	their basements, and commercial advertisements for services.

	Charter:
	Advertisment and discussion for the buying, selling, and bartering
	of electronic components (integrated circuits, resistor, capacitors,
	etc.), electronics test equipment, electronics laboratory equipment,
	electronics industrial equipment, and services used for the production
	of electronics.  NO CONSUMER ELECTRONICS -  NO AUDIO, VIDEO, or HOME
	COMPUTERS.


author: David Ames

subject: Prerequisite: A multiple regression course

text:
I am interested in taking a spring semester course having a multiple
regression course as prerequisite.  Looking at my 30-year-old
Mathematical Statistics book, I find one reference to regression in
the index.

Do people have suggestions about books that may help me get up to
speed on multiple regression in four months by independent study?

Thanks,
David Ames


author: David Winsemius

subject: Re: Prerequisite: A multiple regression course

text:
David Ames <[email]> wrote in news:[email]:

I assume they mean multivariable regression.

Not sure about independent study, but the text I used in my graduate
school course was Kleinbaum and Kupper... worked for me. Muller got
added later. Lots of inexpensive older editions available. The subject
has not changed:
<http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=kleinbaum+kupper&title=regression&lang=en&submit=Begin+search&new_used=*>

We did a lot of work with problem sets, mostly in SPSS ... yuck. I
wonder if getting an book that was attuned to R, complete with problem
sets would be better. I cannot recommend Harrell's "Regression Modeling
Strategies" for learning regression methods but it surely is great as a
second course. Instead take a look at:
 <http://cran.r-project.org/doc/contrib/Faraway-PRA.pdf>

Or perhaps the MIT Opencourseware solution? I looked through the
courses and was amused to find not a single course on multivariable
regression. Closest seemed to be:
<http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Sloan-School-of-Management/15-075Applied-StatisticsSpring2003/CourseHome/>

If I had to put money on the most satisfying option, it would be
R+Faraway.


author: Art Kendall

text:
If you want to start with the why and how this classic could be a place
to start.
<clip from Library of Congress catalog>
Main Title: 	 Applied multiple regression/correlation analysis for the
behavioral sciences / Jacob Cohen ... [et al.].
Edition Information: 	3rd ed.
Published/Created: 	Mahwah, N.J. : L. Erlbaum Associates, 2003.
Related Names: 	Cohen, Jacob, 1923-
	Cohen, Jacob, 1923- Applied multiple regression/correlation analysis
for the behavioral sciences.
Description: 	xxviii, 703 p. : ill. ; 26 cm. + 1 CD-ROM (4 3/4 in.)
ISBN: 	0805822232 (hard cover : alk. paper)
Notes: 	Rev. ed. of: Applied multiple regression/correlation analysis
for the behavioral sciences / Jacob Cohen, Patricia Cohen. 2nd ed. 1983.
	The CD-ROM contains the data for almost all examples as well as the
command codes for each of the major statistical packages for the tabular
and other findings in the book.
	Includes bibliographical references (p. 655-669) and indexes.
Subjects: 	Regression analysis.
	Correlation (Statistics)
	Social sciences--Statistical methods.
LC Classification: 	HA31.3 .A67 2003
Dewey Class No.: 	519.5/36 21
<end clip>

Art Kendall
Social Research Consultants

David Ames wrote:


author: [redacted]

subject: secretive urologists

text:
I have now twice had the experience of asking urologists newly listed with
laserscope, how many pvp's they have done. For those of us who have followed
the list, this is an obvious measure in deciding who to see. In each case,
the office has treated this as a laughably ridiculous question, giving out
figures like "hundreds," or "we don't keep count," all with an insulting
tone indicating that it's simply not kosher to make such an
inquiry.Obviously, they have had to order components for each surgery, so
they have to know.

1. Does anyone know why there is such secretiveness?
2. Does anyone have figures for Dr. Choi and/or. Dr. Hecht in New York City?

Thanks for any help.

Jesse Lemisch


author: lightshow

subject: Re: secretive urologists

text:
[email] wrote:

I think you might want to see Dr. Te at Cornell-Weill in Manhatten. He
has performed "more than a few" proceedures, and also was instrumental
in the proceedures development. I considered him when I scheduled my
proceedure in January, 2002. Due to logistics, I decided to have Dr. Wen
Lin in St. Augustine perform mine. He has also performed "more than a
few". I have also, been VERY pleased with Dr. Lins expertise.<bfg>

My earlier experiences with Uro's, here in Upstate NY, had almost
convinced me they were all a bunch of sanctimonious assholes.
It seems some are, but fortunately-for us-, some are not.

Good luck,

lightshow


author: MB

subject: Re: secretive urologists

text:
One way to ask this is:

1) How long have you been doing PVPs??

2) About how many do you do per week or month??

Usually docs will and can answer those type of questions and the answers
will provide the information you want.

Mel

<[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...
followed
City?


subject: Re: secretive urologists

text:
<[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I went for a consultation with Dr Te and he didnot participate in my
insurance plan.His prices were high and wanted to redo many tests
which I had already done and had brought with me.I ended up traveling
to Rochester Ny and having my Pvp done at Strong Memorial Hospital by
Dr Ertuk.I am extremely happy with the results[done march15]and found
both the doctor and hospital more pleasant to deal with than NYC.So
here is a vote of confidence for 'upstate NY'.The pvp has improved the
quality of my life significantly.I am sure Dr Ertuk would let you know
how many pvp's he has done.Good luck
     Al


author: John G.

subject: Re: secretive urologists

text:
In article <[email]>, <[email]>
wrote:

Very strange. The uro I am going to in Toronto readily shared with me
that he had only done 16 procedures to the present and that if I decided
to have him perform a PVP on me... "You would be the 17th."

However, just try to find a uro in Canada that has done more than
16...!!!

jg


subject: Re: secretive urologists

text:
Thanks, John. I don't know what to make of this until I hear reports from
others about how widespread this lack of candor about #s of pvps done is.

In the meantime, a possible answer is this: the Canadian medical system is
more humane, less profit-driven and therefore more candid with patients. The
US medical system, as everyone knows, is in catastrophic condition.

Jesse

"John G." <johnny.g@no_spam.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...
with
followed
case,
out
so
City?


author: Jim W.

subject: Re: secretive urologists

text:
Not everyone
<[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...
The
insulting


subject: Re: The Tides

text:
On Feb 22, 6:05 am, Sam Wormley <[email]> wrote:

Unlike the pathetic mobbing I receive when I write material,I answer
you with more information,new and better approaches ,more accurate
historical and technical views and that is what a forum is for.

http://rstl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/1/1-22/263.full.pdf+html

It hasn't occurred to  researchers just yet that the tides are most
sensitive to the Earth's dynamics and respond accordingly,on page 277
of that excellent essay of Wallis,he mentions that the natural noon
inequalities, referring to the orbital points of the Earth,add a
component to the annual cycle of the tides.As I am the first person to
express the Equation of Time as a rate of change arising from the
unequal turning of the Earth to the central Sun about a travelling
ecliptic axis,this change shows up when the Earth enters its great
acceleration or deceleration phases.You mightn't like it Sam,it
involves modifying axial precession from a long term axial trait to an
annual orbital trait and I have shown the images of Uranus in this
respect to often to count.

That essay by Wallis was written 20 years before a vicious strain of
empiricism emerged and destroyed what was useful in using experimental
sciences as an analogy to large scale cause and effect.


subject: Re: The Tides

text:
On Feb 23, 8:24 pm, Mike Collins <[email]> wrote:

It is such a simple maneuver - isolate the predictive convenience from
interpretative astronomy and free up the  flow between cause and
effect where dynamics and terrestrial effect mesh by recognizing that
it is impossible to detach the Lat/Long system from the 24 hour AM/PM
system.

I marvel at human technological ingenuity,everything from the creation
of a 747 airplane to the creation of the internet so coming across
these hamfisted attempts to detach the Lat/Long system from the 24
hour rotational cycle is dismaying and contrary to the spirit of
endeavor as though men lacked confidence to pursue the correct
principles using correct references with huge rewards.It is no fun
being among people who can't adapt to contemporary imaging and free of
the dictates which occupied the first astronomers engaged in the
Earth's planetary dynamics,much like a surgeon pours over images and
works out a resolution for some visible condition,the astronomer can
now use planetary comparisons or analogies to address any range of
topics that currently have fallen victim to your unfortunate rotating
celestial sphere.

The edicts of your community tend towards a spiritless and pointless
existence as though a dour nature had something worthwhile to say yet
a spirited nature sees the connection between individual and Universal
and yes,especially in adversity.Try to discuss the issues instead of
trying to personalize them because the latter was always a sign of a
lack of confidence,nothing more or less.


subject: Re: The Tides

text:
On Feb 24, 12:50 am, Mike Collins <[email]> wrote:

It is something more than a fact as life and nature responds to a
turning Earth once in 24 hours -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfCsdcUwPDQ

There is nothing more personal than this as daylight turns to
darkness,the tides change,the temperatures go up and down with a 24
hour cycle in response to one rotation yet you and your community
would have it that rotations and 24 hour cycles fall out of step hence
what you do is not an attack on science but on life itself.I cannot
ask why the awful silence or what have the great discipline of
astronomy and astronomers have done to deserve something as obviously
cruel as the clockwork solar system modeled from timekeeping averages
where stellar circumpolar motion retains constant axial alignment but
not constant daily rotation for very specific technical reasons.

Why the hatred of life ?,this is what your opposition to the Lat/Long
system in tandem with the 24 hour system amounts to.

"The mental powers by diseases we bind;
But He heals the deaf, the dumb, and the blind.
Whom God has afflicted for secret ends,
He comforts and heals and calls them friends.’
But, when Jesus was crucified,
Then was perfected His galling pride.
In three nights He devour’d His prey,
And still He devours the body of clay;
For dust and clay is the Serpent’s meat,
Which never was made for Man to eat."
William Blake

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-everlasting-gospel/


author: Mike Collins

subject: Re: The Tides

text:
oriel36 <[email]> wrote:

Try answering the question.
How often do you look at the Moon or planets through a telescope?
Perhaps you do have the lazy obstinacy of a serpent who has eaten his fill.


subject: Re: The Tides

text:
On Feb 24, 5:10 pm, Mike Collins <[email]> wrote:

In fairness,even though Galileo could have promoted the telescope
above the discoveries of Copernicus,he chose to relegate telescopes as
tools which help make the Earth's planetary dynamics more accessible
to the wider population but even the invention of the telescope pales
in comparison to what any interested reader here can do with
contemporary tools such as sequential imaging

"SALV.But the telescope plainly shows us its horns to be as bounded
and distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a
very large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same
disc when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning
appearances. "
SAGR. Oh Nicholas Copernicus, what a pleasure it would have been for
you to see this part of your system confirmed by so clear an
experiment [telescope]!
SALV. Yes, but how much less would his sublime intellect be
celebrated
among the learned! "
Galileo ,Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, 1632

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg

Seeing history come to life in such a spectacular way hardly appeals
to your community which refuses to accept the proper resolution of
retrogrades yet does not shy away from quoting Galileo.Look through
the telescope !,I am the biggest user of imaging on this forum to
carry a point and  regret that graphic experts don't apply their
skills to making these images easier to comprehend.


subject: Re: The Tides

text:
oriel36 <[email]> wrote:

Just answer Gallileo's question. How often do you look at the Moon or
planets through a telescope? Perhaps you do have the lazy obstinacy of a
serpent who has eaten his fill.


author: Jeepers!

subject: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
What is the term for automotive rollbar tubing. I'm building a Jeep and need
to find and fabricate a piece of rollbar, but I don't know the correct
terminology for this type of steel. Could anyone help, please? What is this
tubing known as?


author: Paul Huang

subject: Re: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
Jeepers!

You are all over the place! (re: 4130 tubing!)

Rollover bars are normally H.S.L.A. steels (High Strength Low Alloy).
Careful, special procedures for weld fabrication are required unless you
want the brittle fracture failure of the structure at the weld is acceptable
to you!! A "good welder" is NOT enough (Are they not ALL "good?). STRICTLY
follow AWS/ANSI D14.1 procedures for welding, and have a reputable Heat
Treat Shop stress relieve anneal it!!!!!!

Good luck,
Paul


author: Alan Krem, Krem Speed Equipment

subject: Re: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
It is seamless tubing. Usually referred to as DOM (drawn over mandrel). It
can be mild steel as 1018 or 1020 or alloy steel generally 4130.

"Jeepers!" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
need
this


subject: Re: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
Check out the rule books of the various automotive drag racing, oval
track  racing, and road racing organizations.
I think they'll specify some mild steel of minimum diameter and wall
thickness.  With mild steel most all the heat treating/stress
relieving issues go away.

Then the huge issues of design, regarding attachment points and
methods, triangulation, gussets and joint design need to be handled.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:02:30 GMT, "Paul Huang" <[email]>
wrote:


author: Jeffry Johnston

subject: Re: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
Alan Krem, Krem Speed Equipment <[email]> writes:
: It is seamless tubing. Usually referred to as DOM (drawn over mandrel).
: It can be mild steel as 1018 or 1020 or alloy steel generally 4130.

: > What is the term for automotive rollbar tubing.

They are usually advertised as being 4140.

Alvin in AZ


subject: Re: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
On or about 8/12/01 7:26 AM, [email] spanked keys that wrote:

Guys, I solved this long ago with some DOM tubing roller bent to my
specifications. It's not a drag racer or sand rail or NASCAR machine. The
majority of my rollbar was intact, I was adding to it. This is a stock Jeep
CJ-7 not some NASA project. At $17 a foot 4130 was out of the question,
anyways.


subject: Re: Name of vehicle roolbar tubing?

text:
On or about 7/3/01 7:33 PM, Jeffry Johnston spanked keys that wrote:

Thanks!


author: Kwame

subject: Python support for password encyption

text:
I'd like to know if there is a straightfoward way to implement data
ecryption in python, like there is in say...php, with encrypt(salt,
pwd), decrypt(salt).

Basically, a way to reverse a string encrypted with md5 or sha1 etc?


author: Kless

subject: Re: Python support for password encyption

text:
On 28 jul, 21:47, Kwame <[email]> wrote:

I recommend you Cryha [1]. In soon time is going to be able to be
installed via 'setup_tools'.

[1] http://github.com/kless/cryha/tree/master


author: Phil Carmody

text:
Kwame <[email]> writes:

You need to learn the difference between encryption
and a hash.

Phil


author: Simon Johnson

text:
MD5 and SHA-1 are both cryptographically secur-ish hashes. I would
personally use Whirlpool or SHA-256.

The whole point of a cryptographically secure hash is that it is
*computationally infeasible* to invert it. It should also be
computationally infeasible to find a collision in the hash.

If you want to store the password in the database in a form that can
be reversed, then this is a bad security decision all by itself. The
key reason why is that you haven't factored in rouge employees in to
your threat-model.

If people who work with the system can decrypt the users' passwords
they can login as them and cause all sorts of havoc. Also, people tend
to use the same password for many different on-line services. This
means that people who work with the system may be able to use that
password to gain entry to other services that person uses.

Even worse, if an attacker breaks in and gets hold of the database
then they will certainly work out how to decrypt them. If you're
developing in Python this is going to be trivial for them to do! They
can then do all the same things that a rouge employee would except
they're likely to be far more aggressive in doing it.

The best thing to do is to one-way-hash the password with a salt. This
prevents malicious employees and attackers alike embarrassing you.

Simon


author: mikey

subject: hydrocodone abuse

text:
Hello, im trying to quit this nasty hydrocodone habit that I have.  I
have been doing this for 2 years, and in the last year its been an
everyday habit of 50 to 100mg.  The reason why i have all of a sudden
decided to quit was i started feeling sharp pains in my left mid chest
area.  I would only feel this pain if i took alot of hyrdo in the 80 to
100 mg area.  I have no cut myself down to 50 mg a day and am going to
do less and less each day.  I have even started to do cold water
extraction to give my liver more of a break (if thats the problem).

But i have been having problems.  On the first day of extracting all
the APAP out of the hydro, that night I woke up cause i did not feel
right.  I was sweating a little and proceded to take my blood pressure
and it was up to 155/100.  My normal is 130/80 usually around.  I also
had a physical a year or 2 ago and i do have very high cholesterol and
tryglycorides.  I have been eating better and i have lost 25 lbs( not
sure if thats cause of the hydro abuse though making me eat less ).
Anyway  I was able to go back to sleep.  I pretty much guessed that
this was because i went from taking 2500 to 3000 mg of APAP a day to 0.
The next day I took 1500 mg of apap and i did feel better and with no
pain in my chest.

But unfortunately the next night I woke up sweating and cold (because
im wet) and a bad headeach.  I took 10mg hydro and 325 mg of apap and i
felt better instantly).

Can anyone offer any advice on my condition?  I have been pondering
going to the hospital if this gets any worse.  I do not want to go to
my family doctor since i dont want them to know im a drug addict.  I
have been able to quit hydro before (when i was doing less amouts)

Im going to do 40 mg of hydro today and take a tylenol before i go to
sleep and hopefully i should sleep better.  Thankfully as long as i
stay below 50 mg hydro/1500 apap i havent had any left chest pains.

I am concened am i having liver failure? causing my body to sweat to
fight of colds since its not working?


author: MobiusDick

subject: Re: hydrocodone abuse

text:
Keep in mind the a normal dose of acetaminophen, salicylates or NSAIDS
will add to the analgesic effect of hydrocodone. With all opiates I
have ever tried, a standard dose of the above mentioned OTC analgesics
will make it seem that you have taken a higher dose of opiates. Not
just for analgesia (aka pain relief) but also for the euphoriant
properties of these drugs. I usually take a single dose of aspirin with
my opiates because you do IMO feel the opiates more.

MobiusDick


author: Gregory Poon

subject: Re: hydrocodone abuse

text:
It might help if you elaborate what you exactly do in your "cold water
extraction".  If you were experiencing liver toxicity (from APAP or
whatever), you might expect symptoms such as jaundice, poor appetite,
malaise, abdominal pain, etc.  Some of your symptoms (sweating, headache)
sound like withdrawal or rebound symptoms (from both the hydrocodone and/or
APAP).  It'd be a good idea to get yourself checked since you do have some
risk factors for cardiovascular disease, and your chest pains may be a
warning sign.  I'd imagine your doctor should be understanding/sympathetic
if you go with an intention of dealing with your problem.  Have you
considered methadone?

But honestly, get yourself some medical help, soon.  If something happens
and you end up in hospital and then they find that you're loaded with a
narcotic, it may be more than embarassment you have to deal with.

"mikey" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


subject: Re: hydrocodone abuse

text:
I am sorry for your problem Mikey and hope that you understand
that the dependence on a narcotic is a disease and does not make
you a criminal or a social deviant, although you may have done
some illegal things to get your hydrocodone.

Fotunately for most people, hydrocodone is much easier to
detox from than oxycodone or morphine.  The symptoms you
describe such as night sweats, probably abdominal pain and
some diarhea are typical of withdrawl symptoms.  The elvated
blood pressure is common.

If you were to go to a doctor who specializes in this sort of thing,
an addictionologist (of which there are many in private practice who
can comfortably detox your out patient), they can help.  Often they
will give you clonodine which lessens many of the symptoms and
is a blood pressure medication, as well as Ultram for a few weeks.

The withdrawl is going to feel horrible for about 3-4 days but
if you stick with the regimen, the doc will most likely not taper you
down put take you off cold turkey as long as he can put you on a
regimen of medication as mentioned above or similar.

I wish you luck, I know a very good Doc in Richmond VA who
does this with herion addicts, oxycotin addicts etc., and he has
great success.  He puts a naltrexone sustained release capsule
under the skin that lasts for a month + as well as ultram and
clonodine and he has great results.

Wishing you the best.


subject: Re: hydrocodone abuse

text:
It was really odd, i think i was having withdrawls from APAP more then
hydrocodone.  I was able to live off 50mg of hydro without a problem in
the past.  After i did the cold water extaction i had these symptoms.
I felt the hydro very strong after the extraction.  But that night i
woke up because (this is weird) kept repeating the same vision in my
head over and over.  I woke up felt a little panicky and took my blood
pressure and it was up along with heartbeat.  I dont think it was a
nightmare cause i do not remember a thing.

The good news is this is the first day without any symptoms.  I took 50
mg of hydro durring the day and 30 at night , no left lower chest pain,
or sweating, headach or waking up.  I did drink alot of orange juice
not sure if that helped  =P


author: Rich McKellar

subject: Re: hydrocodone abuse

text:
GO TO DETOX!!!!

3% chance it works for heroin addicts, probably higher for a hydrocodone
addiction. Also, get your ass to some NA meetings or AA.

"W4PHM" <[email]> wrote in message
news:eDZvd.122$[email]...


author: Bill Bowden

subject: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
I'm building a small  Boost regulator using an inductor, transistor
switch, diode and filter cap, but I cannot get enough current into the
inductor before the transistor starts dropping a large portion of the
supply voltage. I don't think the problem is related to the transistor
gain or base drive since the circuit will draw a couple amps with just
a DC input on the transistor base resistor, and all I need from the
inductor is about 500mA peak.

I have the thing connected to a square wave generator and scope and it
works well at about 73% efficiency on small loads. But as I reduce the
frequency to increase the ramp time and peak current, and power output,
the voltage across the transistor (while it is on) starts to increase
dramatically around 400mA of current, and I need more than that.

It looked like the inductor might be saturating, so I reduced the
number of turns and ran it at a higher frequency, but that didn't solve
the problem. It still runs out of gas around 400mA.

I'm going to try a larger core to see if that helps, but I thought
using fewer turns at a higher frequency would allow more current?

-Bill


subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
jasen wrote:

I don't see the significance of collector voltage. The point is, I can
stop the generator on a high level so it turns on the transistor and
the current is a couple amps. The base current is about 100mA, so the
gain is 20 or more. The question is why doesn't the ramp current
increase beyond 500mA before the transistor starts dropping lots of
voltage? I only need a gain of 5, and the gain is over 20 at DC.

Yes, the current surges, and that's the problem. The question is why? I
know the gain is over 20 and I am driving the base with 100mA and I
can't get more than 500mA peak before the current surges. I changed the
inductor to a large core (the type used in 200 Watt supplies) and I
still can't get 1% of that (2 watts).

-Bill


subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
Homer J Simpson wrote:

I think so. As I understand it, stored energy in an inductor is 0.5*
L*I^2. This would indicate that most any inductor can be used if the
current is adjusted for the required energy. But I like to use large
inductors to reduce the current, and operating frequency, and losses in
the transistor switching times.

-Bill


author: jasen

subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
On 2006-09-15, Bill Bowden <[email]> wrote:

where are you trying to get to, and how are you trying to get there.

I don't see how that follows, (I see no mention of collector voltage when it's
drawing "a couple of amps") But the only other option is that your inductor
is short-circuited or has too little inductance,

are you measuring current with the scope, the current will surge if the
core saturates.

if it's a core saturation problem it should. provided the rest of
the circuit can handle it.

Bye.
   Jasen


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
Bill Bowden wrote:

(snip)

Let me think about this a moment.  You are stepping 3 volts up to 50
volts with a single inductor boost converter and a 2/50=40 mA output
current.

If you used the absolute maximum duty cycle (for miniumu peak current)
to maintain discontinuous mode (inductor fully discharges each cycle),
 Assuming the inductor is lossless, the average voltage across it must
be zero.  So, neglecting diode drop and switching losses,  if x is the
fraction of each cycle 3 volts is applied, the formuls afor x is:
3 * x = 50 * (1-x)

so x = 50/53 = .943.  That means the output current has to be produced
by a triangular current pulse that lasts onlt 1-x = .0566 of each
cycle.  So the 40 mA output current must be supplied by .04 * 1/(1-x) =
707mA average current during that pulse, each cycle.  But the pulse is
triangular, dso it has to have a peak current of twice that value, or
1.413 A.  Does this make sense, so far?

This means that the switch, diode and inductor have to function well up
that current, just to get .04 A out of the converter (if I haven't made
a math or logic error).


author: Jamie

subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
Bill Bowden wrote:

  the last boost unit i made i incorporated a current sense for the
charge and voltage sense (comparator) for the drop off. this way
selecting a frequency rate was much simpler to do.. this circuit
simply toggles. i only needed a pulse on power initiate to start it and
if for some reason the unit got over loaded it would just stop boosting
kind of a safeguard.

   i would say your problem after reading your other many post is that
you are not saturating the coil!< also the slew rate when the transistor
releases the energy is important. if this is slow you can lose energy
in the process. you may want to test this with out the inductor in the
circuit.

  that's just a suggestion.


subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
[email] wrote:

By the way, this is the best case for discontinuous mode, assuming that
the inductor is always either charging or discharging.  If some of each
cycle is wasted with near zero current inductor ringing, the peak
current requirement goes up.

If you can use continuous current mode, whenre the charrging switch
comes on after only a fraction of the stored energy is dumped, the turn
on switching losses are higher, but the peak current requirement goes
down, because the output pulse is trapezoidal, instead of triangular,
so its peak is less than twice its average during the pulse.  This mode
is often simplest if the switch is operated with an inductor current
sensor that turns the switch on and off at two different current
levels.  The levels are set on the fly, based on output voltage.  This
concept inherently soft starts.


subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

Well, I've tried different base currents of  50mA and 100mA with no
change in output conditions, so I don't think that's the problem. All I
need is a couple watts at 50 volts with a 4.5 to 3 volt input.

I overkilled the thing and rewound the inductor on a large core (1.25
inch diameter by 1/2 inch high) About 40 turns of heavy wire
(resistance less than 200 milliohms). I can see several cycles of
ringing when the inductor discharges into the load, so it appears to be
very efficient. But I still can't get more than 500mA of peak inductor
current.

The scope waveform on the transistor collector looks like this: Time 0,
the transistor switches on and collector drops to near zero for 250
microseconds. At time 1, the transistor switches off and collector
jumps to 20 volts for about 75 microseconds. At time 3, collector drops
to the supply voltage (4.5 vols) and then rings about 8 cycles at
200KHz, and then flatlines at the supply voltage for 150 microseconds.
The waveform then repeats and the collector drops to zero.

So, I get about 20 volts across a 1150 ohm load resistor in parallel
with the capacitor. Average input current is 100mA at 4.5 volts or 450
milliwatts. Output power at 20 volts and 1150 ohms is 350 milliwatts so
the efficiency is about 77%.

It works well under these conditions, but I cannot lower the drive
frequency to increase the inductor current and obtain more power out.
As I lower the frequency, the waveform near the point where the
transistor switches off  (close to time 1) starts to climb
exponentionally indicating the drop on the transistor is increasing and
generating lots of heat.

-Bill


author: Homer J Simpson

subject: Re: SMPS Inductor saturates?

text:
"Bill Bowden" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Do you have enough inductance to store the energy you need?