subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
Doug Bissett wrote:

Gee, that's too bad.  My Lucent Winmodem on my T30and T40 with
the IBM Lucent Winmodem/2 driver works just fine.

I blame that lousy eCS product for your 'modem driver' failure.  It was
Serenity who claimed they would be fixing all those nasty driver
problems and yet, here we all sit today, and Serenity has yet to
develop much less release any OS/2 drivers - ever.

OTOH, IBM continues to develop, enhance and upgrade drivers
for OS/2.  THOSE are the drivers Serenity keeps saying they are
offering the eCS consumer, not their own.  We call their claim of
offering the latest drivers more "Misnomer Marketing" propaganda.

Tim Martin, The Official and Only OS/2 Guy
Warp City Web Site - http://www.warpcity.com
 From his Warp 4.53 ThinkPad T40 w/2GIG of RAM,
80GIG of Hard Disk and IBM's Web Browser for OS/2


author: Colin Campbell

subject: Clarification...

text:
Colin Campbell wrote:

When I said "inserting the OS/2 Warp 4 CD", I meant the 1996 shrink
version, nothing more current.

Someone posted a reply as if I had said something derogatory about
current OS/2 versions, and I did not mean to imply that they would not
work as well as eCS, just that I didn't see them used in this demo.

I didn't learn what model the Sony laptop was.

Finally, the meeting was in May, not quite in the Summer.  You can read
the June, 2003 President's Message at www.scoug.com
<Southern%20California%20OS/2%20User%27s%20Group> to get another
person's opinion of what was shown.


author: Andreas Ludwig

subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:46:45 +0000 (UTC), The Real OS/2 Guy wrote:

I have a tp390e as well - have you got Infrared running?

And what network card? (My xircom creditcard ethernet blocks APM (if I have
the driver (version NDIS 2.90 (000107)) installed, the TP does not go into
standby).

Best

Andreas


author: The OS/2 Guy

subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
Menno Willemse wrote:

Excellent "Men".  I now have 'some' respect for you and consider your
use of an IBM ThinkPad with OS/2 a commendable endeavor.

Tim Martin, The Official and Only OS/2 Guy
Warp City Web Site - http://www.warpcity.com
 From his Warp 4.53 ThinkPad T40 w/2GIG of RAM,
80GIG of Hard Disk and IBM's Web Browser for OS/2


author: Luc Van Bogaert

subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News (OT)

text:
The Real OS/2 Guy wrote:

Hmm. you don't happen to have a working spare battery pack for this
machine? Mine gave up some weeks ago, and I have been looking for an
affordable new/used battery.

PS : I agee the 390E runs the latest OS/2 pretty well.

Thanks,


author: Doug Bissett

subject: Re: [FUD4] NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:23:16 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Another pile of CRAP!

See:

http://tmfaq.servehttp.com/


subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
Andreas Ludwig wrote:

No, I have a T30 and a T40.  What would I use inrared for?

Hummmm, hit the FN F4 button with OS/2 running and everything but
my 'Net connection goes into suspend.  Hit FN F3 and everything returns
instantly with a message that my 'Net connection has been closed "Do you
want to reconnect?"  I'm sure IBM designed the suspend function to close
down any dialup connection instead of allowing it to run unimpeded.  Many
people/countries pay/charge by the minute/hour for online time.

I go into hybernate when I close the lid.  Reopen the lid, run a finger
over the TouchPad and the machine wakes up.  ( I must still reconnect
to the'Net when returning from hybernate too. )

Tim Martin, The Official and Only OS/2 Guy
Warp City Web Site - http://www.warpcity.com
 From his Warp 4.53 ThinkPad T40 w/2GIG of RAM,
80GIG of Hard Disk and IBM's Web Browser for OS/2


subject: Re: [FUD4] NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:18:11 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Yet ANOTHER load of CRAP!

See:

http://tmfaq.servehttp.com/


subject: Re: Clarification...

text:
Colin Campbell wrote:

So in short Colin, you're purpose for responding was not in support
of OS/2 but to run another one of those eCS testimonial marketing
ads in the OS/2 newsgroups.  You are here now because you got
caught and realize your poor credibility is back on the line again
with the inferences you made against IBM's OS/2 releases.

I thank you for the belated clarification Colin.  What I DON'T thank
you for is the misuse of these OS/2 newsgroups to illegally spam
on behalf of Serenity Systems and the personal investment you
made in eCS.

Each time the eCS investor/consumer/fanatic pulls a stunt like
this they only hurt further sales of eCS.  If you want to post
testimonials then do it outside the OS/2 newsgroups.  Post them
in the Microsoft newsgroups and see how long you retain your
ISP account.  Post them in the Linux newsgroups and expect
a spate of "take a hike" messages in return.  But for Godssake,
please stop misusing these OS/2 newsgroups to promote the
worst product to come down the pike for OS/2 since ColorWorks
Version 3.0 "for OS/2".

Tim Martin, The Official and Only OS/2 Guy
Warp City Web Site - http://www.warpcity.com
 From his Warp 4.53 ThinkPad T40 w/2GIG of RAM,
80GIG of Hard Disk and IBM's Web Browser for OS/2


author: Menno Willemse

subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:25:08 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Company issue. Running eCS 1.1. Very nice.


author: The Real OS/2 Guy

subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News (OT)

text:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:08:13 UTC, Luc Van Bogaert
<[email]> wrote:

No, I own 2 of them, right - but one is half died, the other is needed
by myself.


subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:49:03 UTC, "Andreas Ludwig" <[email]>
wrote:

Never tried because I don't own a device for.

A D_Link DE660. Works since I buyed the TP. Even as it is only 10MB it
runs in a net with is now 100MB at most. I don't like to spend money
for a new card.


subject: Re: [FUD4] Clarification...

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 03:54:47 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Another load of CRAP!

See:

http://tmfaq.servehttp.com/


subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
Menno Willemse wrote:

Gee, and you had to go and spoil it.  Too bad Serenity has never
been able to do what IBM has done: make OS/2 install on an IBM
T30 or T40 Thinkpad in twenty minutes by simply sticking the OS/2
Warp 4.52 Installation CD in the DVDRW/CDRW that comes with
the newer Thinkpad.  eCS 1.1 fails on both machines and also
takes considerable nudging, twixing and tweaking to work on the
T20 according to those who are willing to tell the truth.

Tim Martin, The Official and Only OS/2 Guy
Warp City Web Site - http://www.warpcity.com
 From his Warp 4.53 ThinkPad T40 w/2GIG of RAM,
80GIG of Hard Disk and IBM's Web Browser for OS/2


subject: Re: Clarification...

text:
The OS/2 Guy wrote:

What a joke!

It is obvious that about half the OS/2 personal use community now uses
eCS, and considers it to be OS/2.  There is a survey on the SCOUG Web
site which validates this statement for one group of users.  (I don't
know the exact number of SCOUG members, but typical attendance at
meetings is around 30 - 40 members.)

I don't feel the need to be thought of as "credible" (or even the more
accurate "incredible" <g>) by anyone here.

By the way, your last paragraph shows a touching sensitivity about my
ability to hurt eCS sales.  We all thought you didn't want Serenity
Systems to be successful!

Drop by some time with your laptop - I'd like to see it in action.


subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:03:49 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Hate to burst your bubble, but I sailed right through the
installation. Nothing weird happening at all. Just the way it was
supposed to.


subject: Re: [FUD4] NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:03:49 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

More CRAP!

See:

http://tmfaq.servehttp.com/


author: Jeramie

subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:03:49 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Priceless!
Great entertainment once again!

<snip>


subject: Re: Clarification...

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:18:01 UTC, Marty <[email]> wrote:

Top Value Entertainment once again!
ROFLOL


author: Marty

subject: Re: Clarification...

text:
Colin Campbell wrote:

Here it is in action:
http://www.geocities.jp/rondonko/pictures/laptop.jpg

[Courtesy of Wayne]


subject: Re: NoteBook/2 Web Site News

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:54:35 UTC, "Menno Willemse" <[email]>
wrote:

Thanks for sharring that Menno!
I'm looking at getting a used Laptop to run another License of
eComstation 1.1 soon.


author: Erick Andrews

subject: Re: Clarification...

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:18:01 UTC, Marty <[email]> wrote:

That's a different picture.

Is his nose on a multi-GHz parabolic horn from a satellite?

Or, maybe I should ask, "Is it Art?"


subject: Re: [FUD4] Clarification...

text:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:05:25 UTC, The OS/2 Guy <[email]>
wrote:

Even MORE CRAP!

See:

http://tmfaq.servehttp.com/

Merry Christmas Tim... May the farce be with you...


author: J.William Kay

subject: Re: New acorn Web site!!!! + more news on Galileo....

text:
In article <ant0422370b0uq=[email]>, Tom Waller
<URL:mailto:[email]> wrote:

[cut]

I first went online with Doggysoft's package, and I was generally pleased
with it.  Then I moved abroad and found Termite wouldn't work with my ISP.
The things I longed for in Termite were a better news/email system than
Offlite - using TTFN/Newsbase was better but there was no MIME support; an
FTP module which didn't crash for obscure reasons and actually worked
properly...

We can say that frames are not required in good html, but that isn't going to
stop people using them. The Times internet site has just been framed; there
are many other sites (not just pornographic sites as you suggest) which use
frames. Some, like MIDI File Central at the moment provide non-frames
alternatives, but these often lag behind in being up-to-date and are becoming
rarer every day; Volvo's new site at http://www.newmodel.volvo.se is framed.
So even if Acorn users themselves don't use frames in their web sites, we
must still be able to access information which is framed.

If I remember correctly, many people claimed tables were unnecessary in good
HTML before Fresco began to support them; such claims have now disappeared
and more and more Acorn sites are starting to use tables.   I believe the
same will happen with frames.

I notice March has come and gone with no sign of the updated Fresco and
Marcel releases, and Netscape 4 is just round the corner.  Inevitably the
Acorn software will always be playing catchup, but it would seem that the gap
between our software and that for the PC is getting wider by the day.

Best wishes,
William.


author: Marco Fioretti

subject: How to use gnuplot on SunOS 5.7 ?

text:
Greetings,

I have asked our sysadmin to install gnuplot from
sunfreeware.com on a workstation whose uname output is:

SunOS hostid 5.7 Generic_106541-24 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-5_10

once installed, the binary crashes saying

ld.so.1: gnuplot: fatal: libpng.so.2: open failed: No such file or directory
Killed

The command

	find `echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH|tr ':' ' '` -type f -name     \
                                                     "*libpng*"

yelds:

/usr/local/lib/libpng12.a
/usr/local/lib/libpng12.so.0.1.2.4
/usr/local/lib/pkgconfig/libpng12.pc

What should I do now to use gnuplot?

I haven't found packages containing libpng.so.2 for that Solaris version
on www.sunfreeware.com .

ANY help is appreciated.

Thank you in advance,
                         Marco Fioretti


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: How to use gnuplot on SunOS 5.7 ?

text:
In article <bdu38m$obf$[email]>,
	Marco Fioretti <[email]> writes:

I understand. But 7 is very old, 10 is being released soon.

OK

sunfreeware is usually the broken bit : <

That's not what I said but anyway .. (trimming)

It doesn't. Here's what I have:
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     root          18 Jun  9 17:59 libpng.so.2 -> libpng.so.2.1.0.12

Try adding libpng.so.2 by typing:
ln -s ./libpng12.so.0.1.2.4 ./libpng.so.2
in /usr/local/lib


subject: Re: How to use gnuplot on SunOS 5.7 ?

text:
In article <bdrhji$mps$[email]>,
	Marco Fioretti <[email]> writes:

try cd /usr/local/lib
ls -l *png*
.so files are almost always symlinks

Does libpng.so -> libpng.so.2 show up?

Compile the dependencies and then the gnuplot source..
Upgrade to Solaris 9 : >

Well it should be in libpng
What does
ldd /usr/local/bin/gnuplot
say?


subject: Re: How to use gnuplot on SunOS 5.7 ?

text:
Gerry,
below you'll find the the outputs of the commands you suggested.
I hope they can help to figure out which piece is missing.
With respect to your other suggestions:

1) Compile the dependencies and then the gnuplot source..
2) Upgrade to Solaris 9 :

#2 is simply not doable, we have both current design and maintenance
projects ongoing with tools/compilers/etc not existing yet for Solaris 9

#1, being more complicated than a simple "please grab that compiled
package and install it" or "please create a link to this library" would
require a lot of extra paperwork...

This is why I am trying to understand what is broken in that Solaris
installation, or in the package. Frankly, I was giving for granted that,
if the gnuplot packages exist for SunOS5.7, a libpng package with the
corresponding libraries for SunOS5.7 would exist for sure.
How can gnuplot package exist, or work at all, in this case?

Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you again for your time

	Marco Fioretti
ldd /usr/local/bin/gnuplot
         libpng.so.2 =>   (file not found)
         libz.so =>       /usr/local/lib/libz.so
         libm.so.1 =>     /usr/lib/libm.so.1
         libc.so.1 =>     /usr/lib/libc.so.1
         libdl.so.1 =>    /usr/lib/libdl.so.1
         /usr/platform/SUNW,Ultra-5_10/lib/libc_psr.so.1

ls -l /usr/local/lib/*png*
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     other         10 Jun 24 17:30
		/usr/local/lib/libpng.a -> libpng12.a
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     other         19 Jun 24 17:30
		/usr/local/lib/libpng.so -> libpng12.so.0.1.2.4
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     other         19 Jun 24 17:30
		/usr/local/lib/libpng.so.3 -> libpng12.so.0.1.2.4
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     other         19 Jun 24 17:30
		/usr/local/lib/libpng.so.3.1.2.4 -> libpng12.so.0.1.2.4
-rw-r--r--   1 bin      bin       197980 Sep  9  2002
		/usr/local/lib/libpng12.a
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     other         19 Jun 24 17:30
		/usr/local/lib/libpng12.so -> libpng12.so.0.1.2.4
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root     other         19 Jun 24 17:30
		/usr/local/lib/libpng12.so.0 -> libpng12.so.0.1.2.4
-rwxr-xr-x   1 bin      bin       176224 Sep  9  2002
		/usr/local/lib/libpng12.so.0.1.2.4


subject: Oracle on Windows Question

text:
Hi,

I've been asked to install the JVM on a Windows 2000 machine running
Oracle 8.1.7.3.

I've done this under Unix by running the initjvm.sql, but I'm looking
for documentation on whether or not it is the same on Windows.......

Thanks in advance,

Arthur


author: Sybrand Bakker

subject: Re: Oracle on Windows Question

text:
On 12 May 2005 09:51:07 -0700, [email] wrote:

Where did you find documentation on initjvm.sql. In the O/S specific
documentation or in the generic documentation?
So there is your answer. If it is in the generic documentation, the
facility works the same for all ports of Oracle.


author: Niall Litchfield

subject: Re: Oracle on Windows Question

text: Its the same. The same requirements on memory etc also apply.


subject: Re: Oracle on Windows Question

text:
upgrade to 10g and the jvm will be installed for you.

-bdbafh


subject: Re: Oracle on Windows Question

text:
HA!  Good luck at this place.  They just came out with an application
version that they 'claim' is compatible with 9i.......


author: Florencio_Lopez_Navarro, (Florencio Lopez Navarro,Servicom Madrid

subject: Stalingrad,when?

text:
Anyone knows when is expected to be released Stalingrad by Atomic Games/Avalon
Hill.
And ASL?


author: Keith Zabalaoui

subject: Re: Stalingrad,when?

text:
As Doug said, We are shooting for a late October release for Stalingrad and
an early to mid '95 release for BSL.  I hate giving dates because so many
things can happen.

As for a PPC version of our games, we just purchased a site license for
CodeWarrior, the HOTTTTT new development environment for the Mac.  We have
actually already made a fat (chubby?) binary of Crusader.  We still need to
test it and rework somethings, but it looks good.  We will try to release a
patch, but since its a being compiled on a different compiler, it might
actually be a replacement (not a patch).  All future Atomic products will
support native PPC.

__ Keith Zabalaoui _______________________________________ Atomic Games __
                             [email]
   CIS: 72662,1333    ~   AppleLink: Atomic.Games   ~   AOL: AtomicGame
__________________________________________________________________________


author: Eugene Anaya

subject: Re: Stalingrad,when?

text:
In article <[email]>, Florencio_Lopez_Navarro,[email] (Florencio Lopez Navarro,Servicom Madrid) writes:
|> Anyone knows when is expected to be released Stalingrad by Atomic Games/Avalon
|> Hill.
|> And ASL?

And, will it (as well as Crusader) be available in native PowerPC versions?

gene


author: John Hausmann

subject: Re: Stalingrad,when?

text:
Keith Zabalaoui ([email]) wrote:

: As Doug said, We are shooting for a late October release for Stalingrad and
: an early to mid '95 release for BSL.  I hate giving dates because so many
: things can happen.

 Keith, I do have a question about it. Will there be a 'campaign' scenario
and, if so, how complete will it be? I seem to recall that map scale/unit
size will vary from scenario to scenario. How will it work ?


author: Doug Walker

subject: Re: Stalingrad,when?

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
(Eugene Anaya) wrote:

Stalingrad will hopefully be out around the end of October.

Beyond Squad Leader (NOT ASL) is still looking like first quarter 95, but I
only see that from a distance.

Stalingrad, perhaps, Crusader doubtful.  We just dont have the manpower to
go back and redo old projects.


author: Michael Haak

subject: 2 actions in one hyperlink ?

text:
Hello WWW !!!

Again my question and this time with a lot of replies ?

Is it possible to combine two actions within one http-link ?
I want to get a html-page and a data file for an external viewer with one
mouse-click.

Or how can I manage my problem ?

Greetings

      Michael Haak

  | |   Michael Haak                        |Universitaet Oldenburg
  / \   [email]  |Fachbereich Organische Chemie
 /~~~\  [email]            |Carl-von Ossietzky-Str. 9-11
 `---'  Phone: +49 441 798-3750 fax: -3329  |D-26129 Oldenburg Germany
        http://www.hrz.uni-oldenburg.de/~haak/haak.html


author: Carlos A. Pero

subject: Re: 2 actions in one hyperlink ?

text:
You can do it with Netscape Navigator v1.1 and the "Refresh" directive.
However, this would make it browser-dependent, at least until other browsers
support it.  I believe it is HTML 3.0.  (The META tag is, but what about
the Refresh HTTP response itself??)

See <URL:http://home.netscape.com/assist/net_sites/pushpull.html>

Good luck!
-Carlos


author: Daniel Smith

subject: Re: 2 actions in one hyperlink ?

text:
In <[email]> Michael Haak <[email]> writes:

	A browser specific way would be to use client-side pull
via Netscape, something like this in the top line of the html page:

<META HTTP-EQUIV="Refresh" CONTENT="0; URL=http://www.foo/bar.chemicals">

				Daniel


author: Achille Hui, the Day Dreamer

subject: Re: 2 actions in one hyperlink ?

text:
+---In <[email]>---
|   Michael Haak <[email]> writes...
+---------
| Hello WWW !!!
|
| Again my question and this time with a lot of replies ?
|
| Is it possible to combine two actions within one http-link ?
| I want to get a html-page and a data file for an external viewer with one
| mouse-click.
|
| Or how can I manage my problem ?

One possibility is to use Netscape 1.1's client poll feature which tell
netscape to retrieve another URL immediately after it fetch the current one.
For example, suppose you want to return a gigantic picture at URL
http://your.machine/monster.jpg which will take a long time to load.
Instead of returning the picture directly. you can returns following html:

<META HTTP-EQUIV="Refresh" CONTENT="0; URL=http://your.machine/monster.jpg">
<title>Wow, the picture is big!</title>

Wow, the picture is big!

The picture is really really big and it will take a while to load, I'll
do it in background and please be patient of the delay.

The <META> tag in the second line tell netscape to pull the URL

http://your.machine/monster.jpg immediately after it completely retrieve
the current URL. You can also specify a delay by changing the value of 0
int the CONTENT there to the number of seconds you want to delay.

Another possibility is to use Netscape 1.1's Server push feature with the
data type multipart/x-mixed-replace. At the end of this message is a simple
nph- script in perl doing essentially the same thing as the above client
pull example with a delay of 30 seconds in between. However, netscape seems
to have a bug if some part of the data is text. Consider the script at the
end again. Involved as it is, the last line "The picture..." will not be
displayed until the delay 30 seconds is passed. If I swap the order of the
sleep(30);  and   print "C"; statement, it will be rendered immediately. It
looks like the bug only affect the last line of the output and there are two
possible work arounds:

[1] output something immediately after the boundary seperating the two part
    of the response. (e.g. swap the sleep and print statment as described
    above)
[2] put an explictly line break in the end of the first part of text response.
    (e.g, put a
 in front of the )

Consult http://home.netscape.com/home/demo/1.1b1/pushpull.html for more
information.

Hope this helps.
------------------------------------achille ([email])
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
$bdy = "RandomString";
$sep = "\r\n";

$| = 1;	# flush output after every print

print "HTTP/1.0 200 Okay$sep";
print "Content-Type: multipart/x-mixed-replace; boundary=$bdy$sep";
print "$sep--$bdy$sep";
print "Content-Type: text/html$sep$sep";

print <<'EOD';

<title>Wow, the picture is big!</title>

Wow, the picture is big!

The picture is really really big and it will take a while to load, I'll
do it in background and please be patient of the delay.

EOD

print "$sep--$bdy$sep";

sleep(30);	# if we swap these two statments,
print "C";	# every just works as expected.

print "ontent-Type: image/jpeg$sep$sep";

open(IN,"<monster.jpg"); $jpg = join('',<IN>); close(IN); $len = length($jpg);
print $jpg;
print "$sep--$bdy--$sep";


author: Brian Donnell

subject: Possible Bug In Think C 5.0.2 Malloc

text:
We have a program which does a bunch of little mallocs and
then later frees them (not necessarily in the same order
they were created).  This program eventually runs out of
memory, and I am quite certain there are no memory leaks
in the program.  If I do large mallocs (> than the 15K
crossover size mentioned in the Think C library source),
I do not have this problem.  I think there is a subtle
bug in the Think C alloc.c library file which in
certain scenarios loses memory for a sequence of mallocs
and frees of small blocks.  When the blocks are large
enough and the library uses NewPtr, the problem does not
appear to occur.

I was hoping to post a sample program, but I cannot
reproduce it easily.  Symantec folks, are you aware of
a bug of this nature?  If so, when can we expect a fix?

Thanks -
Brian Donnell
NASA/JSC


author: Jon W{tte

subject: Re: Possible Bug In Think C 5.0.2 Malloc

text:
Any non-application _must_not_ use Think's malloc().  My first try at my
   screensaver left 15K non-relocatable driblets all over the system heap
   until I figured out what was going on.  I didn't have the luxury of
   trusting _ExitToShell to clean up for me.

Hey, NOTHING RELEASED on the mac should call malloc().
Or anything in the ANSI library. The mac is the mac is the mac,
it has a toolbox, and you'd better use it. The C library
functions, ... well, they WORK, for porting apps in your own
spare time, but they're not suited to programming the mac way.


author: Phil Shapiro

text:
This is true. However, it's usually irrelevent as well, since the
free'd space can be used for other mallocs. Read on for more...

Did you actually try this experiment out? I don't think you did,
because you would've found that THINK's malloc() *does* reclaim freed
space, and it *does* accumulate contiguous freed blocks.

This is a different scenario entirely. malloc() is not intended for
use in "real" Mac applications. It's useful if you have code which
already uses malloc, or if you need ANSI compatibility.

If you wanted to add an extra call to the malloc() source that frees
all of the blocks at once, it would be pretty simple. The zones are
organized in a ring using a pointer (located at zonestart + CROSSOVER
+ 2), and each zone is a Mac Ptr. Once you've written this routine,
you could install it in an atexit() handler (or even in a patch to
_ExitToShell).

	-phil


text:
Well, this isn't really a bug; it's more of a case where our malloc
strategy doesn't produce maximal results. There are a number of ways
to write malloc, and each has its benefits and deficiencies. Our way
is pretty fast at allocating blocks, and extremely fast a freeing
them. On the downside, we don't have any strategy of looking for a
"best fit". Our malloc simply takes the next free block that has
enough room, and this can lead to inefficient use of memory in some
cases.

You may want to make a custom version of the ANSI library that
replaces the malloc routines with direct Mac Memory manager calls. The
results are slower but may result in more efficient use of memory.

	-phil


author: Kevin Hill

text:
In <[email]> [email] (Brian Donnell) writes:

j  How large is a large number of mallocs?  If it is really large, then perhaps
the bug lies in the fact that malloc does not return the memory for the
information about its memory allocations. (this is just guessing though.)

  Why don't you just use NewPtr and NewHandle for ANY memory allocations,
they are able to handle any type of memory allocation that you could want...

 -Kevin Hill


author: Jamie R. McCarthy

text:
[email] (Jon W{tte) writes:

Er, Jon...

The best algorithm for what I'm doing requires that I allocate, as near
as I can figure, about 2000 20-byte blocks.  NewPtr() just won't cut it,
the Memory Manager isn't designed for that.

I have to put some kind of middle ground between me and the toolbox;
even if I write it myself and call it MonstrousMacMemoryManager(), it
still does the same thing as the ANSI function malloc().  Why shouldn't
I save myself the work and borrow someone else's (gasp) ANSI code?


text:
[email] (Phil Shapiro) writes:

Whoops!  You're absolutely right, and I apologize.  The accumulation is
done in alloc(), not in free(), and I wasn't looking there (though I
must say, that's the logical place to do it).

Good information to know, thanks.  Maybe you mean CROSSOVER+4, tho'?


text:
The best algorithm for what I'm doing requires that I allocate, as near
   as I can figure, about 2000 20-byte blocks.  NewPtr() just won't cut it,
   the Memory Manager isn't designed for that.

Ah, but you KNOW you allocate 20-byte blocks ? How about this:

A function NewBlock that gives you a pointer to a 20-byte block,
and DisposeBlock that marks one as free. Implemented by pools
of 500 blocks, with a 2-byte overhead per block (free list) + 2
bytes per pool for allocation count; when allocation count reaches
0 you release the entire pool. If you want faster frees, you
can add 2 (or 4) bytes per block for an offset/pointer to the pool
start for each block.

NewBlock:
	Check the list of non-empty pools.
	If not empty:
		If full:
			Move to list of full pools.
	Else:
		Create new pool.
		Get the next free block.
		Mark as used, remove from free list.
		Decrease free count
	Return block thus found

FreeBlock:
	(optional sanity-checking of pointer)
	Find pool the block belongs to.
	If pool is in full pool list:
		Move to not-full pool list.
	Mark block as free, insert in free list for pool.
	Increase free count.
	If completely empty:
		Release pool.
		Remove from non-empty pool list.

Can easily be generalized to a variable-sized malloc
(with different pools for different powers of 2 sizes
for instance) and to perform allocation in specific
pools (so you can give an entire pool up)

Should be easy to implement, and FAR faster than Think Cs malloc.
(The pseudo-code is off the top of my head; I haven't really
studied the area of efficient memory allocation schemes in-depth,
but this seems like a clean, efficient solution)

   I have to put some kind of middle ground between me and the toolbox;
   even if I write it myself and call it MonstrousMacMemoryManager(), it
   still does the same thing as the ANSI function malloc().  Why shouldn't
   I save myself the work and borrow someone else's (gasp) ANSI code?

Ah, but then you have to live with the idiosyncharies of the
code you borrow, right ? The PLUS side of Think C's malloc
hanging on to the blocks is that the heap is not fragmented.

Cheers,


text:
[email] (Phil Shapiro) writes:

I'm also working on a project that uses malloc(), and for my purposes,
Think's version was completely unacceptable.  From looking at the
source, I believe it's impossible for Think's malloc to ever call
DisposPtr unless you're freeing a block larger than the 15K crossover
size.

In some cases, this may cause problems.  Consider calling malloc(98) 150
times.  This will return you 150 98-byte blocks which, together with the
overhead, take up one entire 15000-byte block.  Now free() them all.
Now call malloc(99).  Think's malloc(), since it doesn't accumulate free
space, will have to allocate an entirely new 15000-byte block.

Any non-application _must_not_ use Think's malloc().  My first try at my
screensaver left 15K non-relocatable driblets all over the system heap
until I figured out what was going on.  I didn't have the luxury of
trusting _ExitToShell to clean up for me.

Eric Sink suggested using Tim Endres' ([email]) malloc, which he
calls "icemalloc".  I had to hack it up to get it to compile, because
the version I found was pre-ANSI, but it works wonderfully.  It does
reaccumulate free space, is fast, has a maximum block size of 16 megs,
and has other features besides.  (Because Tim lets you dispose of a
"pool" of allocations at once, I can free everything at once, much
quicker than Think's "extremely fast" free().)

That said, I can't remember where I ftp'd icemalloc from.  (blush)

(This isn't a slam on Symantec, I still love Think C!)


author: P. Hawthorne

text:
[email] (Jamie R. McCarthy) writes:
. The best algorithm for what I'm doing requires that I allocate, as near
. as I can figure, about 2000 20-byte blocks.  NewPtr() just won't cut it,
. the Memory Manager isn't designed for that.

  You are right, of course. The Memory Manager is not so robust that it can
be your only solution. However, the converse is also true. Malloc is no
panacea either, especially in particularly strange terrain of a Macintosh
application. Compromise is the answer.

  I don't know what sort of access patterns these blocks are subject to,
but consider this approach:
  Get your working room from NewPtr, which has no problem securing you a
single large block, then hand out that memory out with your own malloc.
If you need more working room, and you can't simply enlarge your original
pointer, you could get another from NewPtr and so on.
  It's handy, in that when you wanna release all of your malloc'd blocks,
you can just nuke the block or blocks you got from the OS.

  A very, very, very interesting thread on c.s.n.p last month illustrated
the wisdom of compromises of this sort. A migrant Mac programmer was
lamenting the differences between Mac handle space and heap zones and the
NeXT approach. I guess you can imagine the many justified responses, and I
use the term loosely, the former Mac programmer was subjected to.
Compromise saved the day, although the moist NeXT arch did its part too.

  The ultimate solution was practically the same as I give above. Get your
high level chunks from the OS, and use it however you want. In other words,
have your cake, and eat it too.

 "Cross-platform development means never having to say you're sorry,
  just that you had to strike a compromise somewhere..."
	Theus ([email])


text:
[email] (Jon W{tte) writes:

Uh, er, well, no, I don't.  I should have been more precise:  about 2000,
and about 20.  Actual block sizes range from about 4 to about 60, and the
average is probably around 20.

Then Theus ([email]) chimes in with:

Yeah, that's a great algorithm, Theus.  And yeah, Jon, that _would_ be
easy to implement.  But it's already been done!

Both of you are basically suggesting writing what both Symantec and Tim
have already written, to greater or lesser degrees of efficiency.

(I should add that my "access pattern" is very simple:  allocate
everything all at once, use it, and dispose of it all at once.)

Jon again:

Yes.  I do.  I _like_ the idiosyncrasies of Tim's code.  If I liked the
results of using Think's malloc(), I'd use it.  If I liked the results
of just using NewPtr's, I'd do that.

That's like saying "the plus side of never disposing of anything is..."
The _heap_'s not fragmented, but those 15K blocks are as fragmented as
you can get (uncombined free space).

Come on, guys.  I love the Mac as much as you.  We all agree that the
Memory Manager needs a little help in this case.  But for some reason,
you think I should ignore the fact that someone else's code works for me
just fine.  I can't understand that.


author: Jason Philip Stevens

text:
|> Eric Sink suggested using Tim Endres' ([email]) malloc, which he
|> calls "icemalloc".  I had to hack it up to get it to compile, because
|> the version I found was pre-ANSI, but it works wonderfully.  It does
|> reaccumulate free space, is fast, has a maximum block size of 16 megs,
|> and has other features besides.  (Because Tim lets you dispose of a
|> "pool" of allocations at once, I can free everything at once, much
|> quicker than Think's "extremely fast" free().)
|>
|> That said, I can't remember where I ftp'd icemalloc from.  (blush)

If anyone knows where this is, could you please post an ftp site?  Alternately,
Jamie, could you publish your hacked copy?  Thanks.

-jps


author: Jim Cathey

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Jamie R. McCarthy) writes:

Another approach that would work well for this is to allocate a
'likely-sized' block that will hold the typical case, and make
a pointer to it.  The allocater can then just advance the pointer
by the size, and return its original position.  A quickie size
check can be used to see if another big block needs to be allocated.
At the end of the allocation phase, you have used almost no overhead,
and should have at most a couple-three of these blocks.  Freeing
can just DisposePtr these blocks.

Of course, efficiency of this approach depends on the usage pattern, and
the fact that the number of allocations is large and the typical size is
small, and that it's an all-or-nothing situation.  This approach would
be worthless in general, but as a specific malligator for a specific
purpose it is probably optimal.

So there.


text:
[email] (Jason Philip Stevens) writes:

I emailed Tim and asked him for permission to publish both his and my
source together when the module's done;  if he agrees, I'll let y'all
know when I'm done.  (I hope that 5-year-old address is valid;  it
hasn't bounced since I wrote it an hour ago, but nslookup couldn't find
ice.com.  Hmmmm.)


author: Felix Miata

subject: Re: OS/2 Bootmanager, FAT32 aware

text:
Darryl Sperber wrote:

Yes

Yes

What makes you say this? As long as additional primaries is/are FATx,
HPFS partitions will remain lettered after.


author: Darryl Sperber

subject: Re: OS/2 Bootmanager, FAT32 aware

text:
On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:22:37 -0500, Felix Miata
<[email]> wrote:

The issue isn't lettering of HPFS after FATx, or that the OS/2 primary is not
HPFS so that later lettering is unaffected from both OS perspectives.

The issue is that I feel it is GOOD to be able to see the Win98 partition
(primary C) from OS/2 (logical elsewhere), if for nothing else than to be able
to run already-installed Win32 programs under ODIN directly, without requiring
a second installed copy for ODIN (assuming the INSTALL even works under
ODIN!).

And since those Win32 programs are most likely in C:\Program Files, it is
highly desirable to have FAT32 Win98 C:\Program Files visible to OS/2.  And
that means OS/2 must be on a logical partition other than C, and that the
FAT32 Win98 C partition cannot be hidden to OS/2.

Even if ODIN is not the primary motivation, I just like being able to access
my Win98 partition from OS/2, even if I can only access my FAT16 Warp Connect
partition from Win98 but not my HPFS Warp 4 partition.

And given that assumption, it's clear that only one primary C would be needed
(unless you also required true DOS on another C).


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: OS/2 Bootmanager, FAT32 aware

text:
On Sun, 23 Dec 3900 19:22:37, Felix Miata
<[email]> wrote:

Keep in mind that, using Henk Kelder's program, you can mount drives
in very peculiar order.  This is sometimes handy, e.g., with some of
my maintenance partitions.


subject: Re: OS/2 Bootmanager, FAT32 aware

text:
Darryl Sperber wrote:

Quite!

Or maybe DOS on D:. DR-DOS doesn't have to be on C:.

You missed the point of my question. Your 1 & 2 are true. Your 3 is
opinion.

I *always* install a #1 HD assuming there will be a second visible
primary partition. That way, if the system has a problem that is or may
be HD #1 related, the system can be booted up without floppies, without
a bootable CD, and without additional hardware, *quickly*, in order to
troubleshoot.

Whenever the system does not have a second visible primary, the first
cylinder in the extended partition is made into FAT, which ensures that
the first real partition in the extended is E:, and all other letters
logically follow accordingly. When there is a second (or third, or . .
.) HD, and there is a second visible primary, then the first cylinder in
the extended partition on HD #1 is restored to freespace, preserving the
first real logical partition as E:.


author: Peter Sørensen

subject: Re: Digital filters in VHDL

text:
Altera has a FIR filter generator in their free DSP kit for FPGA
Hi Peter

José Antonio Moreno Zamora wrote:


author: Harald Haugan

subject: Spanning Tree Bridge Priority on Baystack 350

text:
Hi,

I would like to change the default value on one of my 350 switches to
reflect the proper root for the Spanning Tree Protocol. The menus only
display the values. Is there an easy way of changing this value, or if
not, does anyone have the MIB value handy?

Regards,
Harald Haugan


subject: Re: Spanning Tree Bridge Priority on Baystack 350

text:
Nope, has to be done through the MIB. Sorry don't have it handy either
:-(

Markus

On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 07:58:00 +0100, Harald Haugan
<[email]> wrote:


author: Tom Cruise

text:
Hello,

You can modify the STP parameters trough Device Manager.

Regards

Harald Haugan wrote:


subject: Difference Between QTP 7.6 and 8.0

text:
Could someone please tell me the difference between qtp 7.6 and 8.2
and also the difference between Test Director 7.6 and 8.0

Thank you


author: Wolfram Jahn

subject: Re: Difference Between QTP 7.6 and 8.0

text:
[email] wrote:

If you can get access to support.mercury.com, you will find every update
notice archived there.

I dont think that I may post this material here.

Wolfram


subject: Re: Difference Between QTP 7.6 and 8.0

text:
On 5 Feb, 19:39, [email] wrote:

Hi Payalsoni,

There is no such QuickTest Professional 7.6 but 8.2, 9.0, and 9.1.

The different versions of QTP are just an evolution of the product.
The
main advantages with QTP 9.x are 1) the improved Object Repository
(OR)
support (you can now "freely" edit it and move objects from one OR to
another) and 2) you can now edit and debug function libraries.

Regarding TestDirector, the question is not between the different
versions
but more between TestDirector and Quality Center. First of all, I am
not
100% sure but HP Mercury may have stopped selling TestDirector.

Instead, they are selling a replacement (quite similar to
TestDirector)
called Quality Center (QC). The application has been redesigned and as
such can now run on various Operating Systems. The main change in QC
is
that they have integrated what they call Business Process Testing or
BPT.
Otherwise, it is still more or less the same.

Hope this helps.

---
Valery Raulet
Functional Testing Consultant
Exposit Limited (http://www.exposit.co.uk)


author: Chris Cathcart

subject: "The whole truth and nothing but..." (some ruminations)

text:
Take a proposition, like that stated in the following form: "O.J. is
guilty of killing Ron and Nicole."  What this brings to one's mind is
a scenario in which O.J. takes up a knife and kills Ron and Nicole.
(In fact, given the evidence available from the crime scene, some
computer animations even exist detailing what happened; the assailant,
of course, isn't given a face in the computer animation, but we can
imagine O.J.'s face there.)  Now, is the jury's verdict of "guilty"
necessary in order to make O.J. guilty, or is it the fact of the
matter?  We have standards of evidence that are used to purportedly
*establish* the guilt of a defendant in the minds of the jury.  But
whether O.J. really is cuplable or not for the action in question is
determined by the state of reality.

(In the minds of the jury members, the have three options: guilty,
not-guilty, or indeterminate (deadlocked jury? hung jury?).  They may,
on all the evidence, arrive at a "guilty" verdict even if, in fact,
O.J. didn't do it.  That would not be sufficient to establish his
guilt in reality; moreover, it would be the case in reality that he is
*not guilty*, so nothing would be sufficient to establish such.  We do
know that juries have *wrongfully* convicted people before.)

Also, consider what it means to commit perjury (perhaps inexactly; I
am not a legal expert): it is to give FALSE testimony.  Let's say a
President of the U.S. falsely testifies about whether he had sexual
relations with an intern.  Does that testimony become false only when
the matter is investigated further, or is it false when it is given?
If certain things happened, and he/she testifies that they didn't
happen, that is sufficient on, say, Aristotle's definition for the
testimony given to have been false.  When I swear to tell the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, I swear to testify only about what is
the case, i.e., not to lie.

Another thing about what it means for something to be true: say that
you ask the President, "Is it true that you had sexual relations with
an intern?"  For one thing, the person is asking about what occurred,
and implicitly presupposing that there is a truth of the matter before
he asked the question; his aim is to discover the truth (not that
asking the President would be a very good route to finding it; a
stained cocktail dress might be more effective), not to "establish" or
"create" it.  But also note the way in which the question is asked: it
is not a question about the truth-status of a proposition X, but
whether it is true *that* X.  There is still room to distinguish here
between fact and truth (i.e., ultimately, the truth is of a
proposition), but it does give us cause to think about how it is that
it is perfectly appropriate to ask whether it is true that <some state
of affairs -- part of the territory -- obtains, represented *to us* in
propositional form -- on the map>.  In any case, it becomes quite
clear that "truth" here is concerned specifically with what is the
case -- *that X* -- not with whether we've achieved a recognition of
correspondence between our idea *of X* and reality.


author: George Dance

subject: Re: "The whole truth and nothing but..." (some ruminations)

text:
Ken Gardner <[email]> wrote in message news:<5p7ikt4jgl6tteg82u
[email]>...

I would agree with you in objecting to both those things.


author: Robert J. Kolker

text:
Ken Gardner wrote:

The chief executioner of England (which no longer has
capital punishment) performed about 2000 hangings and
was convinced that one in twenty (sound familiar?) were
done on innocent people.

The way seems clear. We should purchase Tierra del Fuego
from the Hottentots. Tierra del Fuego is the ass hole of
creation. We should send our incorrigibles and capital felons
there, equipped with a bag of seed and shovels, where they
will either grow their own or die.  The security of the place
can be secured at minimal cost and the advantage is, is that
the guilty are out of our hair and the innocent wrongly
convicted can be extracted and compensated for lost time.

Since being protected by repeat acts of dangerous felons is
my chief interest, it matters that they are no longer a danger
to me and mine. Blood vengence, while understandable, is
of minimal importance (to me at least).

Bob Kolker


author: Ken Gardner

text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote:

Then the system did work because the erroneous convictions were
reversed.  Maybe the system could have worked even better if these
people had not been wrongly convicted in the first place.  But you
don't need to throw out capital murder prosecutions for this reason
alone.  Instead, you can fix the problems that led to the wrong
convictions (such as, e.g. mandatory DNA testing).

[...]

Ken


text:
Ken Gardner wrote:

No sir! The burden is on the State to prove the charge beyond a
reasonable doubt. Those are the rules.  To get a reversal of  a
conviction, the initiative is with the person convicted. He has
to show evidentiary error. However if it turned out that the State
has concealed evidence that might have promoted the defense
of the convicted person, the prosecutor in the case should serve
out the remaining sentence, or in the case of capital execution
should be put to death. I make a presumption of guilt for any
representative of the State. They have a vested interested in
chopping heads off.

Bob Kolker


text:
Ken Gardner wrote:

In almost all of these case, the State opposed the introduction of
the new evidence with vigour. They were not the least bit
interested in the truth, but in covering their arses. Wake up.
The State (not just Illinois) is at its root a necessary evil, which
means that it is an evil. That State is interested first and foremost
in preserving its power, and NOT in protecting your rights or
mine.

Bob Kolker


text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote:

But this problem is easily fixed by a rule of law (or of evidence)
requiring DNA testing in appropriate cases.  And, frankly, if the
prosecutors are deliberately suppressing exonerating evidence (whether
to cover their ass or otherwise), they should be sued for malicious
prosecution and be made to pay through the nose and out of their own
pocket.

[...]

Ken


text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote:

That's what I'm talking about.  The burden is on the prosecution to
prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  However, if the jury convicts
the accused and the accused then appeals, the burden should be on the
accused to show an error (or errors) that would justify reversal.

I would never go this far, but if the prosecutor deliberately
concealed exonerating evidence, he should be severely punished in some
form.

[...]

Ken


text:
Ken Gardner wrote:

It may be fixable, but not easily. You are dealing with evil
people for whom justice is nothing and keeping their
power is everything.

Actually they should suffer the penalty they wrongfully imposed
on others, including death in capital cases. When we have the
heads of dirty prosecutors stuck on pikes at the city gates maybe
the others will get the idea. Nothing like cutting throats to
get someone's attention.

Bob Kolker


text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote:

Methinks you are overgeneralizing just a bit here.  Prosecutors are
human beings, and like all human beings some are good, some are bad,
and some are just plain ugly.  One simply cannot make universal
judgments about prosecutors.

I understand the sentiment, and, as I said earlier in this thread, the
prosecutors who deliberately suppress or conceal clearly exonerating
evidence should be (severely) punished.  However, we do not want _all_
of our prosecutors (including the good ones, i.e. those who care about
justice and see their job as the doing of justice in the realm of
criminal law) to refrain from prosecuting real criminals who committed
real crimes because they are concerned about their own civil or
criminal liability if they do.

Ken


text:
Ken Gardner wrote:

Oh yes I do! I believe in deterrance. For an eye an eye, for
a life a life and for a wound a wound. That is MY kind of
justice. It's payback time!

Bob Kolker


author: Scott Amspoker

text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote:

Perhaps if that notion applied to defense as well as prosecution?

Scott Amspoker                |
[email]                  |  Pump first then pay.
http://www.rt66.com/sda       |


text:
Ken Gardner <[email]> wrote in message news:<6g2hkt0qubokcs2raj
[email]>...

Since you brought in the word, how are you defining it?  The most
obvious definition is: For a person to be "innocent" of a capital
crime, means that he must not be guilty of the offense for which he
was convicted.  Yet it could also mean not guilty of /any/ offense,
and that appears to be how you are using the word.

I think you are making a distinction without a difference.  If a
person is convicted of a capital crime, who is in fact guilty only of
a lesser, non-capital charge, then that person is in fact innocent of
the crime for which he was convicted, no differently than if he were
innocent of any crime.  He is still being punished unjustly, and in a
manner for which he can never be restored in the future.  Those
punishing him are still acting aggressively, and refusing to take
responsibility for doing so.

Nor (as much as I would like to see the actually guilty be punished),
do I see how this case should be treated differently.  If warrants are
not required whenever the cops have a reasonable (from their pov)
excuse for not getting one, then why have warrants at all?  The only
reason I could see, would be make the justice system appear to be
something it is not.


text:
Ken Gardner <[email]> wrote in message news:<sp6hktgtcejb1fscg1
[email]>...

First, I don't know why you claim that not executing someone is
equivalent to "letting him off the hook" - no country that has
abolished the death penalty simply releases murderers without penalty.
 Second, while I don't entirely understand your reference to my "bad"
epistemology, it sounds as though you consider it bad because it may
lead to an undesireable outcome.  If so, it appears that you are using
an ethical criterion to judge epistemologies, which is misapplying
criteria.  I consider /that/ bad epistemology, in turn, but at least I
have given a you reason why.


author: Little Freddy Wuss

text:
In article <[email]>, George Dance
says...

You fail to recognize the objective/subjective/intrinsic dichotomy in regard to
guilt and innocence.  "Guilt" and "innonence" are just floating out there on
your view, and somehow "guilt" and "innoncence" attach to defendants indepe
ndent
of any method of finding out which.  You just arbitrarily assert that "he is
guilty" or "he is not guilty" -- but how do you know that either is the case
before finding out?  That's precisely why the Objectivist epistemology --
expertly interpreted by Leonard Payoff in OPAR -- doesn't allow you to get away
with asserting that either of them is true without finding out which.  And no,
I'm not engaging in slimy equivocations here!


text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote in message news:<3B489FD7
[email]>...

snip

I think that the Ona and the Yahgan might object both to your
description of their land, and to any purchase of it from a third
party. <g>


text:
George Dance <[email]> wrote:

I was using the word here in the latter sense.

I'm referring to the situation in which the accused committed homicide
and the jury is asked to choose between capital murder and a lesser,
non-capital charge, as opposed to the situation in which the accused
may not have committed any crime at all.  I would be concerned with
error in both types of cases, but I would be much more concerned if
the question is whether the accused committed a crime at all than if
the question is whether the accused committed homicide out of
premeditation rather than passion.

I agree.  However, anyone who murders anyone is taking his chances
that the jury may convict him of a capital crime even when he may
deserve a lesser sentence.   Again, although I am concerned about any
improper conviction for capital murder, I am much more concerned with
the conviction and execution of an entirely innocent person -- and
only a compelling proof that no procedures can be designed to prevent
such a thing from happening would change my mind on capital
punishment.

I think that the appropriate action in such cases is to punish the
cops, not allow someone literally to get away with murder.  I wouldn't
throw out the so-called "exclusionary rule" entirely, but I would
reserve it for the most egregious cases.

Ken


text:
George Dance <[email]> wrote:

I'm not talking about imposing a lesser sentence.  I'm talking about
acquitting the defendant entirely solely because of arbitrary doubts
of his (otherwise established) guilt.  See, e.g. the O.J. Simpson
trial.

I'm not referring to anyone's bad epistemology.  Again, I'm referring
to the indulging of arbitrary doubts of the (otherwise established)
guilt of an accused.  See, e.g. the O.J. Simpson trial.

[...]

Ken


author: Fred Weiss

text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Actually, we are like juries with regard to all our knowledge. We can only
go with the evidence available to us. As new evidence is discovered we
modify our judgments. There is no way to get to some mystical, unknowable
"TRUTH" by any other means. And with regard to any presentation of evidence,
even in this instance DNA evidence, one could always claim - arbitrarily -
that there is still room for doubt.

Fred Weiss


text:
Fred Weiss wrote:

Try modifying your changement after a person is executed.

Why it looks like poor Lefty didn't do it after all. C'est dommage.

Of late, the State of Illinois has determined a 5% error rate in
capital convictions. That is one out of twenty. It has wisely
recused itself from applying the death penalty until the evidentiary
procedures used by the State are closely examined and
re-evaluated. Wise move.

That is why I am in favor of penal colonies. The same purpose
is served, to wit removing the convicted felon from our midst
so he/she no longer presents a danger to the rest of us. Think of
the execution of the death penalty as the ultimate form of
exile.

Neither is there any way to reverse the effects of an execution.

Even if the evidentiary modes in use are 99.99% sure (they are
not. At best 95% under current rules ) a person executed is
100.00% dead and gone.

Would you play Russian roullet with a 20 chambered
revolver?

Bob Kolker


text:
Robert J. Kolker ([email]) wrote:

: Even if the evidentiary modes in use are 99.99% sure (they are
: not. At best 95% under current rules ) a person executed is
: 100.00% dead and gone.

: Would you play Russian roullet with a 20 chambered
: revolver?

  Poor analogy.  The former has a purpose; the latter does not.


text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote:

What does this mean?  That one out of every 20 convictions are
reversed because the accused was actually (and demonstrably) innocent?
Or what?

And how is "innocence" defined here?  Is a capital conviction
erroneous because the accused didn't commit any crime at all, or is it
merely determined that he should have been convicted of a lesser
charge such as manslaughter, or that the error in his case is purely
procedural (e.g. the cops nabbed his written master plan for how to
commit the crime without first getting a proper warrant)?

Ken


text:
"Ken Gardner" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Good questions. But I sympathize with Bob's point. It is the one valid
objection to the death penality.

Fred Weiss


text:
Fred Weiss <[email]> wrote in message news:<9i9h8a$6t8$1@slb
7.atl.mindspring.net>...

The claim that there is still room for doubt is precisely the claim
that we have not reached Absolute "TRUTH"; that we should be open to
the possibility of new evidence, prepared to modify our judgements if
it arises; IOW, it is possible for someoneone to "know" something
(that is, to believe it is true, be wholly justified in believing it
is true, and think and act as if it were true) without that thing's
being true.  You sound fully supportive of that claim, so why do you
persist in calling it "arbitrary"?

Rand of course made a similar argument on this specific issue of jury
convictions.  She argued, on capital punishment, that it was ethical
to execute those who were murderers in fact, but at the same time it
was not ethical to execute those convicted of murder; precisely
because someone convicted of murder might not be a murderer in fact,
and it was the height of injustice to kill a person who was not a
murderer in fact.


text:
Fred Weiss <[email]> wrote:

I do, too.  I favor the death penalty as a matter of justice, but I
can understand opposition solely on the ground that a genuinely
innocent person (i.e. a person who committed no homicide at all) might
be executed by mistake.  Obviously, it goes without saying that in a
capital murder trial, all relevant procedural protections must be
strictly observed so that a genuinely innocent person is not executed
by mistake.

Ken


text:
George Dance <[email]> wrote:

[...]

The burden should be on the accused to come up with specific evidence
that the jury made a mistake in his particular case.  Otherwise, Fred
is right -- you _are_ indulging in arbitrary doubts that may result in
a very serious injustice being done -- i.e. letting a clearly guilty
man off the hook because of bad epistemology.

Ken


text:
Ken Gardner wrote:

Yes. Absolutely. The DNA proved that they could not have
conmitted the crimes. These folks, many of them dirt balls
by the way, were innocent of the crimes of which they were
convicted.

In short, Illinois railroaded these people, mostly black
and nyekulturnye for murders they did not commit.

No I am talking about innocent innocent, not wrongly convicted
for procedural deficiencies. The justice system (so called) in
Illinois sucks lemons.

Bob Kolker


text:
Chris Cathcart wrote:

The system of evidence leads the jury to a judgement or
opinion on the guilt or non-guilt of the defendant. Only
God and the perp know whodunit. The jury can only
say what they think of the prosecution's case.

The latest rash of people being pardoned because DNA
evidence shows that the verdicts were bogus, leads me to
the opinion that a jury's judgement is worth exactly what
they pay the jurors to sit. Which is to say, not much. On
the other hand, jury trials trump arbitrary punishment so
the system is the least worst of several bad systems.

Bob Kolker


author: Peter Farey

subject: Re: Sonnet No 74: Authorship Issues

text:
I am reposting my response to Bob's request, partly because there
were a couple of errors I wanted to correct, but also because Adam
and Robert seem to be still unaware of my having posted it at all.

Bob said:

I'll do my best, but what you will have to do is to 'suspend
disbelief' with me for the time being, and imagine that Marlowe's
death really was faked, and that he is now writing these sonnets
as 'letters in verse' to his noble young lover.

The first thing to note is that this sonnet is the last in a
group of four in which the poet discusses his own mortality.
I agree with Katherine Duncan-Jones that it is no accident that
they start immediately after the overall sequence has reached
'three score and ten'.

The theme is introduced in Sonnet 71, in which his friend is
urged to forget all about him when he is dead. "Don't make
yourself unhappy thinking about me. Maybe 'look upon this
verse', but don't let on in any way who wrote it or the 'wise
world' may put two and two together, and some of the disgrace
attached to my name - the 'vulgar scandal stamped upon my brow'
(112.2) - may rub off on you."

This same point is continued in Sonnet 72: the young friend is
urged never to talk about him since 'niggard truth' would in
any case have to be embellished with 'some virtuous lie'
(which implies that there is more than a grain of truth in
the accusations that were levelled against Marlowe). No, he
says, it is better that 'my name be buried where my body is'.
And in this he foresaw what would happen in fact. Somewhere in
the world lie the remains of the brilliant young poet/dramatist
Christopher Marlowe. Wherever this is, we know that at no time
would his name have adorned the grave (and to this day it also
remains unmentioned in Westminster Abbey's poet's corner).

Sonnet 73 is my own (and possibly most people's) favourite.
For anyone in the 'autumn of their years' it cannot fail to
ring bells.  And yet this is probably the one most personally
relevant to Marlowe, for in it he seems to be looking back
over his own life.

    That time of year thou mayst in me behold
    When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
    Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
    Bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang.

'Bare ruined choirs'? Within only a short walk of his childhood
home were the ruins of the old abbey of St. Augustine's, where
he undoubtedly played as a boy, and later on, he would almost
certainly have been a chorister in Canterbury Cathedral, right
next door to his school, where he would have been able to 'to
sing and solve plainsong'.

    In me thou seest the glowing of such fire
    That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
    As the death-bed whereon it must expire,
    Consumed with that which it was nourished by.

Here we have two memories, linked together. The earlier would
be when he was at Cambridge, had graduated B.A. and was well
into reading for his M.A. He was also by now a well respected
employee of 'her Majesty', probably via Lord Burghley, and
(possibly as a gift from a wealthy admirer) had had his
portrait painted. The motto he chose was 'QVOD ME NVTRIT ME
DESTRVIT' - that which nourishes me destroys me.

The second relates to the immediate aftermath of his alleged
death and, within two weeks, the publication of 'the first
heir of my invention', 'Venus and Adonis'. Two lines from
Ovid appear on the title page. These lines (with the next
six), had been earlier translated by Marlowe as:

    Let base conceited wits admire vild things,
    Fair Phoebus lead me to the Muses' springs.
    About my head be quivering myrtle wound,
    And in sad lovers' heads let me be found.
    The living, not the dead can envy bite,
    For after death all men receive their right.
    Then though death rakes my bones in funeral fire,
    I'll live, and as he pulls me down mount higher.

The last two lines provide a pretty good reason for the
quotation, and I have never seen a decent Stratfordian one.
There seems to be something of this in the Sonnet's 'fire
and ashes' analogy too.

Now to Sonnet 74.

    But be contented when that fell arrest
    Without all bail shall carry me away;
    My life hath in this line some interest,
    Which for memorial still with thee shall stay.

He has now moved away from saying "forget all about me" to
pointing out that these sonnets should provide his friend
with something to remember him by. Parts of his 'life'
appear in them. He is saying "When I really do die (in
contrast to the arrest, bail, and pretence of my faked
death) use these lines as my memorial". Also, on the last
occasion it was likely that he was going to die - i.e. to
have been 'arrested' by death - he had been 'bailed out'
at the last moment. But not next time.

    When thou reviewest this, thou dost review
    The very part was consecrate to thee.
    The earth can have but earth, which is his due;
    My spirit is thine, the better part of me.

"Don't worry about the fact that my body is now really dead.
That's unimportant. What matters is my spirit, which will
live on in these poems and which I dedicate to you."

    So then thou hast but lost the dregs of life,
    The prey of worms, my body being dead,
    The coward conquest of a wretch's knife,
    Too base of thee to be remembered.

"So all that you have lost is a worthless corpse, with no
need at all to be mourned over. Just as there was no need
for mourning, in fact, when the story got out about my
having been stabbed to death."

    The worth of that is that which it contains,
    And that is this, and this with thee remains.

"What matters is what is in things, not the things themselves.
So a body, once without its spirit, is of no use. My spirit
will, after my true death, remain with you in these lines."

You can now stop suspending disbelief. OK?

Peter F.
[email]
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/index.htm


subject: Re: Sonnet No 74: Authorship Issues

text:
Hmmm, I think my being now on vacation, and starting to fill with
Christmas Spirit has o'er-mellowed me.  Anyhow, Peter, I rather like
your interpretation of the four "Marlowe" sonnets.  It seems equal to
my Stratfordian one and I doubt that the Oxfordians can work their
man in as well as you did yours though I think Volker, when he finally
returns, will give it a valiant try.  I have problems with your
interpretation, though (as I do with my own), and don't find it
anywhere strong enough to serve as primary evidence in Marlowe's
favor, only as interesting subjectively indirect evidence to use
in secondary support of him.

Okay, you handle the disgrace that the first two sonnets mention well,
better than we Stratfordians since we know of no (genuine or only
perceived as such by the one guilty of it) disgrace in our man's
life (but assume there was one, as there is in almost anyone's life).

The possible allusions to Marlowe in Sonnet 73 are plausible but
unnecessary.  I continue to claim that the poet was primarily writing
only about a fire, the ashes of whose youth are now glowing but will
soon be dead, consumed by the air which once nourished them.  It's
just a description of a dying fire.  It may be more but need not be
more.  I don't understand why so many interpreters have problems with it.

I don't really follow what you're saying above, Peter.  What's wrong
with the Stratfordian suggestion that Shakespeare used the Ovid
quotation simply to indicate that his poem wasn't a trivial crowd-
pleaser--and to suggest that he had a high opinion of himself?  And
was about to versify about sad lovers?  Your Marlovian interpretation
(yes, the interpretation is Marlovian, which doesn't necessarily make
YOU a Marlovian) uses more of Ovid and is thus better, but that doesn't
make it true, nor keep the Stratfordian interpretation from being a
decent enough one.  And now I skip to the difficult lines of Sonnet 74
and your take on it:

How do you get "when the story got out about my having been stabbed
to death?"  He's directly speaking of when he's dead--killed by a knife.
There's nothing to suggest he's suddenly referring to some event in
the past.  I've yet to see an interpretation of the knife that makes
any real sense to me.  I've said the poet needed a rhyme; I now add
that he needed a whole line.

                                                         --Bob G.

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own


author: Robert Stonehouse

subject: Re: Sonnet No 74: Authorship Issues

text:
Peter Farey <[email]> wrote:
...
...
For present brevity, not meaning to ignore the rest of this longish
posting, I pick up this point. Many moons ago, I put forward the
guess that in the end the various authorship hypotheses would fall
under Occam's razor, as unnecessary hypotheses.

To decide that, we have to approach the poems without
preconceptions, unimaginatively, and flat-footedly follow step by
step wherever they lead. If we start from Bacon, or Marlowe, or
Oxford, then our argument is circular and we are building
self-supporting spirals in the air.

So no, I will not suspend disbelief, or adopt it either. I just want
to read the poems and see what happens. That is enough to be doing -
they are not easy poems.

But ought we not to read the poems in the full context of everything
that is known about the history of the day? How does such a way of
reading the poems fit into a general historical study?

Every historical study depends on evidence, and on a correct
understanding of each piece of evidence. The first step must be to
consider each piece on its own. That is only the first step, but if
we go wrong there, we shall never be right afterwards. What is this
thing? What does it compel us to conclude?

Reading the poems to see what happens is an example of this
approach. Later, maybe, something outside the poems may cast a new
light on them. But for me, for the present, trying to understand the
poems as they stand is enough. So no, I won't make the shift and
look at them in a special context. I'll just take them flat on the
page. (This is too simple, of course; the human predicament does not
allow total purity. For example, I use the dictionary. But this is
the ideal, the unattainable model laid up in heaven.)

All which need not discourage anybody who has got beyond that stage.
But I'll come out against anything that seems contrary to the most
natural interpretation of the poems themselves.
[email]


subject: Re: my problem with objectivist ethics

text:
A true egoist should be willing to do anything that causes him to benefit,
including picking up a quarter.

The term "wrong your fellows" is a moraly loaded one and implies a wrongness in
taking the quarter that does not nessesarily exist. Try "take a quarter from
one of your fellows."

If you were to be presented with a choice of advancing your own interests at
the expense of losing your ability to live in a society, then that would have
to be quite an advancement of your interests to make it worth it, as living in
a human society is of very great benefit.

Fortunately, picking up a quarter will not exclude you from living in a
society. Neither will taking someone's copy card.


subject: Re: my problem with objectivist ethics

text:
My argument is that picking it up is not to your benefit.  I don't think
wronging fellows is prudent in the context of living in a society.

Nah.  See above.  It is wrong because it leads to risks you could otherwise
avoid.  You can gain money without risking someone else's enmity.  Is the
marginal benefit of our copy card worth somebody calling campus police and
starting a big row?  Is it worth having to fear exposure?

Isn't this what people who commit murder do?

Is being jailed, expelled from school, subjected to public censure a minor form
of social exclusion?  Sure it is.  Is it worth a copy card?  No.  Why run risks
for cash that you needn't run?  Cash is obtainable without necessitating a
state of fear for yourself, without subjecting yourself to the punishing
judgement of your peers, without risking jail or expulsion.  If that person is
standing around the corner watching, your simple act of prudence has become
theft.  Maybe as an object lesson, some student newspaper could set up a sting
and publish the names of the moral failures.  The point being, any theft has
inherent risks, risks easily avoidable and prudently avoided.

Kevin


subject: Re: my problem with objectivist ethics

text:
Can you explicitly describe the costs of taking the copy card, making sure that
they total over $50?

The person's enmity will not be directed at you, specificly. Is your claim that
it is worth over $50 to you to have someone at your college not be angry?
Assuming you went to college, did you go around offering people who were upset
$50 in hopes that it would make them less upset and thus benefit you by more
than $50?

A big row? I don't know what kind of college you went to, but I assume at a
normal college or university, someone reporting a stolen copy card would not
cause and sort of "big row."

If the card didn't have the person's name and photo on it, then there'd really
be nothing to fear.

If you have any intellegence, those things would not result from you taking the
copy card. Again assuming no name and photo is on it, once you have it you're
pretty much safe. If someone sees you picking up a copy card in a copy room,
they'll think its yours. If the owner or a friend of the owner sees you picking
up his copy card and says something, you simply say "Oh, I saw this card lying
here and I was going to bring it to the lost and found, I didn't want someone
to take it! That would be awful! You're welcome." Even if they suspect you
really were trying to steal it, nothing would come of it if you stuck to your
story.


author: Dan Lind

subject: My Susan

text:
Tomorrow evening I will allow my wife to be taken off life support.

For some mad reason I have chosen to place on hpo a memorial to my
wife, Jayne, and an honor to my 11 year old daughter, Susan.

My Susan

A young girl's eyes are wide with joy
Like tropic color tones they dance
And reach toward mystifying shapes
That pattern size and sound and texture.

Her hand grasps tight her mother's hand
And squeezes hard those strong fingers
That once held the small head `gainst her breast
While gently stroking back sparse black hair


author: Jim Klein

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
"David" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3da23fcd$0$208$[email]...

Do you imagine that a man losing the love of his life, is a context shared
by a painting?

Nobody dead is triumphant, and I'm pretty sure that wondering about that
isn't one of Dan's problems presently.  I have numerous disagreements with
Dan, some of them serious recently, but I think his response to you was
spot-on.

Apparently you don't understand the context here, else have never been in
love, else have never lost anyone close to you.

jk


author: David

subject: Response to Jim

text:
Jim Klein <[email]> wrote:

Of course the canvass with paint on it is not the same
thing. This painting depicts death at its best. Life
and death are inevitable. What is wrong with veiwing
both of them in their best light?

Jim, this is very gloomy. Under the best
circumstances we live only a finite
period of time. It is how we live that
matters. It has to be.

I cried a river as I was responding to Dan.
But this is hpo and in my extremely humble and
respectful opinion, I thought it better to
say what I had to say than not share it.
That's all a human, which we all are, can do.

David


author: blazingmuse

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
You are confusing Platonism with history.
If you want to go and intellectually masturbate, do it on another
thread.  This is sacred ground, if such a thing exists.
It baffles me that you are sensitive and respectful enough towards
Lind that you wish to comfort him, yet insensitive and direspectful
enough to snub his most integral beliefs.  Myabe, once you get over
puberty, you'll understand.


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind <[email]> wrote:

If you know the mysteries of life, share them
with us mortals. We all give up the ghost.

David


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
dave odden <[email]> wrote:
You don't. In the painting, the Death of Socrates,
it is his survivers who mourn and are devestated.
The sage himself is triumphant.

David


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
David <[email]> wrote in message news:<3d8e77c7$0$222$ba620e4c@n
ews.skynet.be>...

Go fuck yourself.

Dan Lind

a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a

a
a


author: John Alway

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind <[email]> wrote in message news:<ad7b0c77.0209262214.6cd9
[email]>...

  Thanks, Dan.

   She's beautiful.

  ...John


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
It may sound like wishful thinking, but portions remain.  Echoes.
Look for them in Susan, and perhaps yourself.  The impact we have on
other people's identity is sometimes a curse, but also a blessing.

I don't know you, and don't wish to sound shallow, but, my
condolences.  And I commend the integrity evinced in your decision.


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
I wish to bring closure to this thread by giving the link for the
mortuary's webpage for my wife.

http://www.grissomsmortuary.com/memorial/Jayne%20Lind.html

Dan Lind


author: DANIEL MARX

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind <[email]> wrote:
Jane Coltilda Shields Lind
I never knew her
And yet
I mourn her
Setting sun


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Since I started this damn thread I suppose I owe it this much.

My wife, Jayne Coltilda Shields Lind, died this afternoon at 2PM.  She
exists no more.  And that's a fact.  And it's the truth.  Be certain
of it.

Our daughter, Susan kissed her mother's warm unconscious forehead
yesterday afternoon, and said goodbye.  And wished for a miracle.

And I am determined to empty this most expensive bottle of cognac I
could find.

Dan Lind


author: Robert Kolker

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind wrote:

It is a sorrow to hear of a life cut short too soon. We are all
short-timers in a sense, but it is hard to take a substantial
forshortening of life.

I wish you strengh and courage.

Bob Kolker


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind <[email]> wrote:

Are you certain her soul does not exist in a state
of sublime happiness? What makes you the expert?

David


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
David wrote:

Life after death? A fond wish supported by no emprical evidence. Let the
dead go and get on with life. If the dead live on, it is in memory.

Bob Kolker


author: Ted

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Robert Kolker <[email]> wrote:

Bob, what exists for the dead, exists for the dead.
We have such emormous difficulty establishing what
exists for the living, how can we even begin to
appoach that subject?

Something Socrates said,
Stop being dense.

Ted


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind <[email]> wrote in message

   <cut beautiful poem>

   Saddness runneth over.  I had no idea.   I'm sorry.

   ...John


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind wrote:

Hazack v' Ematz (Strength and Courage).

Bob Kolker


author: T. Chan

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
My sympathies, Dan.  Thank you for sharing your memorial with us.  May
you and Susan commemorate Jayne's life by enjoying nothing but
happiness in yours.

[full text reproduced below as I could not bring myself to snip]

f
t
b
..
..
..
f
t
b

On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:25:40 +0000 (UTC), Dan Lind <[email]>
wrote:


author: Greg Swann

subject: Re: My Susan

text:
In article <[email]>, Dan Lind
<[email]> wrote:

Requiem aeternam dona eam, Domine, et lux
perpetua luceat eam. Requiescat in pace.

Godspeed to your wife. Consolation to you and
your daughter.

Greg Swann


subject: Re: My Susan

text:
Dan Lind <[email]> wrote:

You have placed it where it will be understood. That is
not madness.

We don't live forever. Knowing you from hpo, I know
you gave Jayne as much happiness as can be achieved
in life. God bless you all. And I'll bet He will.

David


author: Thee Anti-Libertarian

subject: A Libertarian Ponders the Titanic Disaster

text:
A little something I ran across, that I had to share:

I don't know why so many people feel sorry for those who died on the
Titanic. First of all, why did so many people whine and complain about
the life boats? If a passenger couldn't get on one life boat, he could
always go to another. Or he could have chosen not to get on a life
boat
at all. At the very least, the passengers who "CHOSE" not to get on
the
life boats could have simply jumped into the freezing water and swam
the
remaining thousand or so miles to New York. I don't see what the big
deal is. Therefore, I could only conclude that the only reason so many
passengers died on the Titanic is because they chose to commit
suicide.

As we all know, the government was responsible for sinking the Titanic
in the first place. I can't think of a cause and effect relationship
right now, but it sounds good to me. Maybe the government hired some
aliens, from outer space, to push that iceberg in front of the
Titanic.

        Robert

Thanks to Robert Calvert for this little tidbit.

"Libertarians:  Anarchists who want police protection from their
slaves."

Kim Stanley Robinson

"Libertarians: anarchists who want police
protection from their slaves"

Kim Stanley Robinson


author: George Dance

subject: Re: A Libertarian Ponders the Titanic Disaster

text:
Thee Anti-Libertarian <[email]> wrote in message news:<3d3909
[email]>...

Well, that's obvious.  The government had passed no law making it
illegal to die on a sinking ship.  Had they done so, obviously
everyone would have obeyed it and they'd all have survived.

Or maybe it was caused by private enterprise putting profits before
people.  The causal chain there is quite obvious: the more people who
die from using a product, the more people will want to use that
product, and the more profits for the company.

The guy that Rose married, no doubt.


author: Robert J. Kolker

text:
Thee Anti-Libertarian wrote:

1. Titanic carried 16 full sized lifeboats and 4 collapsables, enough
for about 3/5 of the passengers, if each boat were fully loaded.

2. The ship was touted as being unsinkable. As the designer of the
Titanic pointed out, any ship made of iron can sink.  The passengers
were defrauded in the most profound way.

3. In a sense, you are right. Anyone who choose to travel on Titanic
brought the disaster upon his/her own head.

Bob Kolker

Take her to sea, Mr. Murdoc. Let's see how fast we can sink this tub.
--- Capt. Smith.


text:
jack_v wrote:

I was referring to the 5 truly water tight compartments at the bow and
the five on the stern. The middle compartments were top open at "C" deck.

No one really believed that 5 compartments would be breeched. Which is
why there were only five.

No did anyone believe that the plates a rivets would be embrittled and
pop, which is why the ship sank.  The total amount of opening due to the
collision with the iceberg was less than then square feet. That is all
it took to flood the front compartments and cause the ship to founder.

Bob Kolker

This ship is made of iron and she can sink --- Thomas Andrews.

Take her to sea Mr. Murdoc and let's see how fast we can sink this tub
-- Capt. Edward Smith.


text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote in message news:<3D3973CB.80
[email]>...

That simply incorrect. While it is still likely that the damage
iceberg caused would still sunk the Titanic(I'm not an expert), there
was serious flaw in the ship's construction. The watertight
compartments were not really watertight. Because ship was assumed to
be unsinkable because of its size, the watertight bullheads were not
completed all the way up. They only went 10 feet higher than
waterline! Which means that after water raised to certain level, it
overflow above the bulkhead into next "watertight compartment". It
probably accelerated sinking of the Titanic, at least.

Jack_V.


author: Charles Novins

text:
"Robert J. Kolker" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

CHARLES NOVINS:
I'm not clear on this; in view of (2), i.e., fraud, how does (3) follow?


author: dave odden

text:
Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Is there anything that one could label "un-X-able", without thereby
comitting fraud according to you? People engage in hyperbole in advertising
all the time, so brand X may claim to use the "freshest" produce, an
encryption scheme is called "unbreakable" and so on. While I don't approve
of most advertising claims (which, if about reality, are most often not
literally true), I am yet to be convinced that this was actual fraud. Here's
an invitation to persuade. If the designer and manufacturer actually knew
that there was a good chance that the hull would rupture if it hit
something, and chose to suppress that clearly relevant information, then I
would accept the charge of fraud. But bad engineering (and I don't even
assume it was that -- incautious, nonetheless) is not fraud.


text:
Charles Novins wrote:

Let the buyer beware! Fraud is always a possibility.

Bob Kolker


text:
dave odden wrote:

comitting
encryption
I concede the point. There was no -intent- to defraud or fool the
passengers. If the designer of vessel was willing to travel on her, then
it is unlikely that anyone was trying to fool anyone else.

The ship was thought to be "virtually" unsinkable and the lifeboats were
thought of as a means of transferring passangers from Titanic to another
ship, should Titanic loose power for some reason.  No one in their
wildest dream though that Titanic would lose all of her watertight
compartments for any reason.

As Thomas Anderews, the designer of the ship, pointed out, any ship made
out of iron can sink.

Bob Kolker

In my  movie version of Titanic, Bruce Ismay returns to the ship after
death, and all the other lost passangers throw spitballs and pieces of
shit at him.


subject: Re: Hesiod's Eros

text:
On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:39:17 +0200, "Hï¿½vard Nï¿½rjordet"
<h-noer@[remove]online.no> wrote:

Quite right! There is nothing in the words themselves that suggests
this conclusion.

The thing that makes people think there is more in it than meets the
eye is the position that Eros occupies in the genealogy of the gods.
He comes in very early, at creation time: 'the position of Eros here
in the very first generation of created powers strongly suggests a
quasi-demiurgic function' (West's note ad loc. with other examples).

Exactly what his function would be, so far as I can see we do not
know. In modern terms, sex is obviously important to evolution, though
biologists seem to dispute exactly why it is important and what good
it does.


author: Petrushka

subject: Re: Hesiod's Eros

text:
Hï¿½vard Nï¿½rjordet wrote:

Probably Plato's Symposium is the most relevant place to look for this
view of Eros, especially Eryximachos' speech (186a-188e). Eryximachos
describes Eros as a unifying force that controls all phenomena involving
the balance of opposites; the examples he cites are medicine (the study
of the balance of properties within the human body), music (harmonia vs.
rhythmos), sport, agriculture, and divination, but he expands this claim
to include everything in the world - 186a:

"... Love isn't only a human mental response to physical attractions; he
influences a great many other situations and circumstances as well. The
body of every creature on earth is pervaded by Love, as every plant is
too; it's hardly going too far to say that Love is present in everything
that exists." (Trans. R. Waterfield)

It's almost certainly a mistake to read this view of Eros back into the
Theogony: Eros' position in the genealogy of the gods there is to
explain how there could *be* a genealogy! As you point out, Eros doesn't
have any particular role in the organising of the universe in the
passage you quoted.


author: Robert Stonehouse

subject: Re: Hesiod's Eros

text:
On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:51:49 +0200, "Hï¿½vard Nï¿½rjordet"
<h-noer@[remove]online.no> wrote:

Evelyn-White's Loeb has:
"and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the
limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and of all
men within them."

Doing it literally (or as near as I can) it would be:
"and Eros, who most beautiful among the immortal gods, /
slackener of limbs, of all gods and of all men /
subdues in their chests the mind and careful thought. /"

It is not just a question of over-interpreting these words. I
mentioned that West gave other examples, and some of them are
striking. Aristotle Metaphysics 984b 23 (book 1 chapter 4):

"One might suspect that Hesiod was the first to look for such a thing
- or someone else who put love or desire among existing things as a
principle, as Parmenides, too, does; for he, in constructing the
genesis of the universe, says:-
Love first of all the Gods she planned.

And Hesiod says:-
First of all things was chaos made, and then
Broad-breasted earth, ...
And love, 'mid all the gods pre-eminent,
which implies that among existing things there must be from the first
a cause which will move things and bring them together."
(Ross's translation.)
vv
(The word 'pre-eminent' represents a difference in the Greek between
our texts of Hesiod and Aristotle's quotation. Ross in his commentary
suggests Aristotle is quoting from memory and has been led astray by a
couple of very similar lines elsewhere. In the days of papyrus rolls,
verifying a quotation was hard labour.)

That is substantially West's own argument from the position of Eros so
early in the genealogy. For parallels to this positioning he refers to
Orpheus fragment 28, Euripides Hypsipyle fragment 57.23, Aristophanes
Birds 700, Pherecydes B3, A11, Parmenides (above), Empedocles B17.20
ff., Aeschylus fragment 4N=125M, Euripides fragment 898, Plato
Symposium 195 BC, Sappho 198, Acusil. B1, B3 (who he? Ah, see Plato
below.) and the position of Pothos (Desire) 'in the Phoenician
cosmology reported by Damasc. princ. 125 from Eudemus of Rhodes'.

I don't own all that lot; here is what I can produce.

Aristophanes Birds 693-703
"In the begining was Chaos and Night and black Erebus and wide
Tartarus, but neither earth nor air nor heaven existed. In the endless
folds of Erebus, black-winged Night laid an unfertilised egg, from
which in the circling seasons was born Eros the desired, shining with
golden wings on his back, like the whirling of the winds. He, in
intercourse with winged Chaos, in the dark in wide Tartarus, made the
first nestlings of our race (the Birds are speaking and they comically
glorify their own origins) and brought it to the light before all
others. Before then, there was no race of immortals, before Eros
combined everything, but as they mixed one with another heaven and
ocean came into being, and earth and the imperishable race of all the
blessed gods."
(My translation, with the aid of Van Daele's French.)

Empedocles (in Brad Inwood's translation of a section of Plutarch, The
Face on the Moon, 926d-927a):
"Earth had no share in warmth nor water any share in breath; none of
the heavy things was up nor any of the light things down; but the
principles of the universe were unblended, unloving and solitary, not
desiring combination or communion with one another; fleeing and not
admitting of blending or communion with one another,turning away and
executing their separate and self-willed movements, they were in the
condition which Plato attributed to everything from which God is
absent, i.e. in the condition of bodies when deserted by mind and
soul. They were in that condition until by providence desire came into
nature because of the presence of love and Aphrodite and Eros, as
Empedocles, Parmenides and Hesiod say ..."

In Plato, Symposium 178B-C, Phaedrus claims Eros is oldest of the
gods, referring to Hesiod, Acusilaus of Argos (c.475 BC) and
Parmenides. Later Agathon (Symp. 195B) has his own different ideas, as
a tragic poet well might.

Sappho fragment 198 consists of three prose quotations, the first two
from scholiasts:
"Sapphio gives the genealogy of (Eros) from Earth and Heaven."
"Alcaeus (said that Eros) was the child of Iris and Zephyrus, Sappho,
of Aphrodite and Heaven."
Pausanias 9.27.3:
"Sappho of Lesbos sang many inconsistent things about Eros."

Now, later Greeks certainly had the idea that Eros was an essential
part of the creation, even if they did not agree at all points. They
thought this idea was in Hesiod. Were they ante-dating later
philosophic speculation?

The place where Hesiod puts Eros in the genealogy is not easy to
explain, except by assuming he had this idea. So it seems likely they
were right. He did not explain it fully, perhaps because his purpose
was not to explain the creation in general, but specifically how the
gods came into being.

But a modern commentator should not simply refer us to Hesiod for the
idea. Hesiod's words on their own do not provide what we need. He
should point that out and explain how the gap is filled, even if only
by referring to a commentary that does so.


author: Peter

subject: What Happens to Hunding?

text:
I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about where Hunding might end up
after Wotan kills him at the end of Act 2 Walkuere?  But don't forget
that at the beginning of this act Wotan informs Bruennhilde "nach
Walhall taugt er mir nicht." ("For Valhalla I don't consider him
suitable.") [my translation].

P.S. Actually it's really too bad Hunding gets killed off so early
because I think that his "Leitmotiv" represents some of the best music
in the Ring.  Even Anna Russell agrees with this!


author: Jeffrey D. Sarver

subject: Re: What Happens to Hunding?

text:
I love questions like this!  The problems usually arise with various
"interpretations" of the text.  I am no linguist and my Deutsch is
shakey so I rely upon my favourite translators.  For this one I have
turned to William Mann in the reprint of his translation of Die
Walkï¿½re on the Barenboim/Bayreuth set on Teldec.  He translates "nach
walhall taugt er mir nicht" as "I do not require him (Hunding) in
Valhalla.
To my way of thinking, for Wotan at this moment in time, he would not
consider bestowing upon Hunding the great honour of spending eternity
in the hall of heroes.  However, after "Fricka's revenge", as I call
her nasty tantrum in Act 2, I think that Wotan is so benumbed and
humiliated and just darned fed up that he may think "Valhalla is
doomed, "what is one cur like Hunding going to matter" and sends him
off at the end of Act 2 to "Knie vor Fricka".

This leads me to think that part of Wotan's torment is that he has
lost his "virile" control over his creation to his vengeful and
betrayed wife.  Have we not witnessed this in actuality in the
newspapers?  I think Wotan sends Hunding, with his dirty toenails and
filthy fur mantels, to stand before Fricka in all his stinking
disgustingness to stick her nose in it for degrading his (Wotan's)
heroic, manly world.

In conclusion, yes, Hunding is sent to Valhalla.  Wotan doesn't care
anymore because he sees the end, remember his fateful words to
Brï¿½nnhilde, "Das ende" whispered softly and tragically in his big
scene after Fricka has wrested her terms from him.

The game's up.  So Wotan does not care what happens to Valahalla
anymore.  It is tainted and doomed.

Das Ende.


author: Mike Richter

subject: Re: What Happens to Hunding?

text:
Peter wrote:

It's not at all clear that Wotan kills Hunding. He says: Geh! - and
Hunding dies.

A while ago, I posted a WWW page with a wide range of readings of that
line. In some, the god clearly has delivered a fatal blow with his
voice; in others, he has actively removed his countenance; in a few, it
is almost an offhand remark.

Hunding is certainly not a hero. What lesser fate - if any - might have
awaited him would depend on Wagner's permutation of Norse legend, so is
unknowable.

Mike


subject: Re: What Happens to Hunding?

text:
"Jeffrey D. Sarver" wrote:

I wonder why you, and I believe also others, believe that Hunding is
"disgusting"?

What evidence do we have that he is "bad", since I believe he acts the
way people normally behaved during the period the Ring is supposed to
take place in?  The fact that he does not want to lose his wife,
Sieglinde, to an "old" enemy of his is certainly not "criminal."

Wagner also apparently did not seem to think that Hunding was "bad" since
he provided him with one of the most majestic Leitmotifs in the entire
Ring.


author: Inotmark

subject: Re: What Happens to Hunding?

text:
the score states clearly that hunding dies from a contemptuous wave of wotan's
hand.  wotan's responsibility in this matter is clear.

hunding is a god-fearing man, the last thing wotan wants in his world.  only
free heroes could serve wotan's purposes.

if we take the score at face value, wotan dismisses hunding to fricka with a
contemptuous wave of his hand.  this would send him to walhall, presumably.

wotan's mind was radically changed after his dialogue with fricka.  walhall was
no longer to his taste.  he did not return to walhall after punishing
brunnhilde until he came home with a broken spear and ordered the world-ash
made into firewood.

there is no meaningful objection wotan can have to hunding's presence in
walhall.  it only meant that hunding would sit meaningless as one of the gods'
elect and await the end with them.

by the time of hunding's death, wotan had already realized that his own godhood
was a limitation he could no longer abide.  walhall was no longer his world
vision.  rather he preferred the world of a free and conscious humanity.

hunding's acceptance by fricka in walhall is, paradoxically, his greatest
damnation.  it is the ultimate tribute to his insignificant archaic nature.
removing hunding from the world only served wotan's purpose as a symbolic
annihilation of the resistance to his plans:

if siegfried is born without parents, he is also born into a world without
hundings.  whereas hunding can call out to the gods and the accepted world
order for vengeance, siegfried's enemies can not.  their complaint against him
is the pure evil of self-centered envy and greed. whereas siegmund is felled to
support wotan and his world,  siegfried can only be brought down through the
intervention of magic and lies.

in spite of the obvious pathos, siegmund's murder is just.  hunding must be
rewarded for it, even if that reward is delivered with contempt.  that contempt
reflects wotan's attitude about his own ambitions in Rheingold scene ii, which
he has by the time of hunding's murder already outgrown.


author: Edward A. Cowan

subject: Re: What Happens to Hunding?

text:
Mike Richter <[email]> wrote:

Quite so. I find Hotter's performance of "Geh!" in the Solti set ideal:
It is half-whispered, an utterance laden with Wotan's grief over the
loss of Siegmund, whose death he has decreed after Fricka has changed
his mind re the ethical order of things. I find it quite wrong for the
singer to bellow the final "Geh!" to Hunding: This implies an active
hatred on Wotan's part toward Hunding, whereas his attitude is most
likely an indifferent contempt, the god's focus of attention being upon
the slain Siegmund, who is now the god's required sacrifice upon the
altar of Fricka. This utterance is also now weighted with an awareness
of Alberich's curse upon the ring, which Wotan has touched but no longer
possesses.