author: P. G. Chavez

text:
Sarah Booth wrote and I snipped:

Sarah, others have had a lot of good information and support for you
which I echo.  I wanted to add some specific info on fighting thrush.
Check out these sites:

http://users.erols.com/cindyrn/yeast.htm
http://www.breastfeed-essentials.com/thrush.html
http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBthrush.html
www.oz.net/~chotii/fighting_thrush.html

Regarding the last one, Angela wrote the following on this newsgroup:

"There are two things you *must* do, to beat a pernicious case of
thrush: you must use at least one kind of antifungal to kill the yeast,
or (in the case of fluconazole (Diflucan)) a fungistat, to stop it
reproducing. And you *must* stop feeding it.

"No sugar. None. No honey, maple syrup, sucrose, lactose, dextrose,
glucose, or any other -ose.  No artificial sweeteners, which will only
make you want the real thing.  No simple carbohydrates, which break down
into sugars very rapidly: no potatoes, nothing with refined flour, no
white rice.  Whole grains only and in moderation - try the
nontraditional grains like amaranth, quinoa, millet, and teff.  I would
do this for two weeks, minimum.   And if your symptoms return, go back
on this diet. You might have to stay on it, depending on your body
chemistry. You'll only know by experimenting.

"Add lots of Vitamin C - I would push right to your intestinal
tolerance, at least 5000mg/day if it doesn't muck up your bowels, and
more if you can stand it - and zinc, to boost your immune system, olive
oil and garlic in your diet, lots of good dark leafy vegetables, plain
unsweetened yogurt, and a probiotic supplement (acidophilus/bifidus in a
high concentration). You might want to stick to organic eggs, milk, and
meats because of the risk of residual antibiotics. Avoid antibiotics if
you can, also - remember, lactation "sweetens" your body chemistry, some
women more than others, and makes you more prone to yeast overgrowth.

"And you must always, always, treat the baby when you treat yourself. If
the GV didn't work for you, but miconazole or other OTC antifungal gives
you some relief, then do that for a few days while you cut out the
sugar, and then try GV again.

"I promise you, it can be beaten. But I learned the hard way that
relying on pharmaceuticals alone is often a path to unresolved agony."

HTH,
-Patty, mom to Corinne [Mar-98] and Nathan [May-00]
and stepmom to Victoria [Apr-90]


author: Patty

subject: Re: I can't do it anymore... *very* sad.

text:
I feel your pain.....

When I had thrush a few of the things I did besides the prescribed meds
were: Vinegar in the rinse water for every item of clothing that touched my
breasts (Sheets too).  I stood in my bedroom window and sunned my breasts
for 20 minutes a day for a week.  I really think that helped but I also
think I got a little sunburn, so be careful!
I also did the baking soda in water spray but I think that was a little too
strong (it stung). Also acidophilus pills twice a day.  The thrush finally
went away but I think I overdid the treatments and caused my areolas to
become super dry. I started using lotion and that seemed to help.

HTH

Patty

"Sarah Booth" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Marnie

text:
"Sarah Booth" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
<snip>

Sarah,

I totally understand the pain, both physical and emotional. I suffered
w/interductal yeast infection a year ago, when DD2 was a newborn, and it was
agony for several months. Many times I thought that the pain was not worth
it, it was that bad. I wondered at the effect on DD if I despaired at every
feeding. We made it, but I was not pain free until September.

I didn't have latch issues on top of the yeast, though. You've had it very
rough. You have my sympathies on all counts.

Pharmecutical drugs (including those you mentioned) did nothing for me. I
had to go no-sugar and no-carb, plus do some herbal/homeopathic treatment.
Regardless of if you are BF, you ought to rid yourself of the yeast. You can
google it, but me know if you want me to post my treatment regime.

Best wishes.


author: A&G&K

text:
"Sarah Booth" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

(((Sarah)))
It sounds like you have been through the wringer and have tried so very
hard.  I'm sorry that I can offer  no insight as I have no experience with
such problems.
Amanda


author: Chotii

text:
"P. G. Chavez" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I meant it when I wrote it, and I mean it every bit as much today. No, I'm
no doctor, and I don't pretend to be. I'm not an IBCLC or LLLLeader or
anything else with a title, but I know the agony of endless, unrelenting
thrush, and I know what worked for me after all the pharmaceuticals used
alone had failed. And besides, it makes sense: It's no good killing *some*
of the yeast if the remaining survivors are happily chowing down on the
excess sugar in your blood and reproducing merrily along. But....starve them
into submission on the one hand, and beat them savagely on the other hand
with the pharmaceutical or herbal remedy(ies) of your choice....success will
happen eventually. It has to. Even people with pervasive systemic yeast
infections (candidiasis) can often control it by strict diet alone, and
there are plenty of books (and web sites) out there, including cookbooks, to
help with this.

Of course, thrush will also generally resolve with weaning, and if the OP
has reached the limits of her endurance and weans, she should have relief
from her pain, too. I would never hold it against someone who had struggled
valiantly against horrific odds, found their limits, and respected them.

--angela


author: Shelby

text:
I just wanted to send you a virtual hug, poor dear.  I think you've done
great sticking in this far and agree that the most important thing overall
is being able to spend happy time with your DD - not just dread that you
might have to try to feed her.  She's very lucky to have a Mom that cares so
much!

Michelle

"Marnie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:h_sBa.768474$OV.704831@rwcrnsc54...
was
every
can


author: HollyLewis

text:
She's only 6 weeks old.  I truly sympathize with all the problems you are
having now, but I can say from experience that they do not mean you will
*never* enjoy breastfeeding.  I had tears in my eyes and curled toes at every
feeding for a very long time, and yet, I've now been enjoying nursing my son,
who has never had any formula, for about 22 months and can say it was totally
worth it.

If you do decide to give it up, the only advice I can offer is to make the
decision and don't look back.  (Just don't EVER tell anyone you "couldn't"
breastfeed, I beg you!  Say that you had a lot of early problems and made a
reasonable choice to quit.)

If you decide that it's worth dealing with the pain for a while longer, yes,
there are things you can do!

The first thing you need to deal with is finding some pain relief.  I strongly
recommend the product formerly known as Maternimates -- it's sold by Ameda now
under another name, which I can't recall just now -- or Soothies.  These are
gel discs that you put in your bra; they help heal the cracks and soothe the
skin in the meantime, and are IME much more effective than Lansinoh.  Other
moms have had good luck with various other types of creams/lotions.  I also
recommend taking high dosages of ibuprofen or Tylenol (paracet...something in
the UK) with your doctor's approval.  These drugs are relatively safe to take
while breastfeeding even in higher than the typical labelled dosage.

My Maternimates and my mega bottle of ibuprofen got me through six *months* of
cracked nipples.  (Fortunately, I never developed thrush, though.)

For the thrush, although I've never had it myself, I understand that Gentian
violet and other OTC remedies are more effective for many moms than
prescription drugs.  So are things like diet changes.  I'm sure someone else
who's been there can make some recommendations.

For the latch issues, it sounds like the only real solution is time -- although
you never know, there could be another LC out there who could suggest something
else.  Have you tried a nipple shield?  They should only be used with caution,
because they're a hassle which you then have to deal with weaning from, but for
some latch problems they work wonders.

Pumping for a while does get many moms through cracks and latch issues, and it
shouldn't be painful -- or at least, it's ordinarily less painful than nursing
for moms in your situation.  What kind of pump are you using?  Have you tried
using gentler suction?

As for whether you are doing the right thing, nobody can decide that but you.
In the long term, breastfeeding is the best thing for your precious daughter
and for you.  But if it's excruciating and the pain is getting in the way of
your love for your baby, then quitting may be the only reasonable thing to do.
Whatever you decide, don't second guess yourself.  You can only play the hand
you're dealt.

I would say, based on the age of your baby and your feelings about quitting,
that it's not time to give up just yet.  Get through one feeding at a time, and
don't make the choice to use formula unless and until you're confident that
it's the right choice for you and your baby.

All the best to you
Holly
Mom to Camden, 2 yrs


author: Sara

text:
Shelby wrote:

Nothing to add, but yeah, what she said. I'm sorry it's been so hard
for you.


author: Hillary Israeli

text:
In <[email]>,
HollyLewis <[email]> wrote:

*For the thrush, although I've never had it myself, I understand that Gentian
*violet and other OTC remedies are more effective for many moms than
*prescription drugs.  So are things like diet changes.  I'm sure someone else
*who's been there can make some recommendations.

The gentian violet worked well for me when I was dealing with
surface/nipple thrush, but when I had intraductal thrush with that
terrible burning pain, I needed a course of diflucan. FWIW.

*I would say, based on the age of your baby and your feelings about quitting,
*that it's not time to give up just yet.  Get through one feeding at a time, and
*don't make the choice to use formula unless and until you're confident that
*it's the right choice for you and your baby.

I wholeheartedly agree.

-hillary, who wasn't free of the ulcerated nipples, cracks, thrush, and
mastitis til her son was 3 mos old.


author: Chookie

text:
In article <[email]>,
 Sara <[email]> wrote:

And a me-too post.  I wish I could help.


author: Stephen Sprunk

subject: Re: trains, planes and automobiles

text:
"Hans-Joachim Zierke" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the

As suburban sprawl increases, the number of people living or working within
walking distance of any potential station falls below what is possible to
recover.  Transit is still viable in urban areas, or suburban "park and
ride" centers connecting to urban areas, but a growing portion of our
population is moving to the suburbs where the population density is too low
to support busses, much less rail, even with heavy subsidies.

The other problem is that once you get to the other end of the transit link,
your final destination must be within reasonable walking distance.  This is
generally true in the European cities I've seen, even the small ones, but
it's only true of the very largest American cities.

A couple small-town hicks running two cars back and forth does not a transit
system make, even if their low overhead allows them to remain self-funded.

The US has thousands of miles of existing track that could be used for such
systems, but the rolling stock, track rent, fuel, and engineer/conductor
salaries are an order of magnitude larger than the fares the market will
bear.

Which rules exactly make it impossible in the US?

S


author: Jeff nor Lisa

subject: Re: trains, planes and automobiles

text:
"Stephen Sprunk" <[email]> wrote

When these new sprawl areas open up, driving is easy.  But once
it is fully developed and people settle in with shopping, work
commutes, soccer games, etc., it gets terribly congested.  What
is the cost of time for all that congestion?


author: George Conklin

subject: Re: trains, planes and automobiles

text:
"Jeff nor Lisa" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
within
to
low

  Less by far than taking transit, which is the slowest possible way to get
around.  Transit figures do NOT include waiting times, which are very
important, but if a car waits even 1 minute, they multiply it by millions of
cars and reach absurd conclusions.  Is this all dishonest?  Absoultely.


subject: Re: trains, planes and automobiles

text:
"Robert Coté" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
within
to

I tend to identify "suburbs" as distinct municipalities with mostly
homogenous zoning (single-family only, no mixed use) and a high percentage
of non-through streets, the majority of whose residents work in a large
nearby city.

"Sprawl" refers to the spiraling increase in land area consumed by a given
metropolis.

low

You can say I'm using circular definitions or fuzzy, meaningless
pejoratives, but suburbs still exist and transit within them is difficult if
not impossible to provide at a reasonable cost per passenger.

S


subject: Re: trains, planes and automobiles

text:
"Robert CotÃ©" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
because
passengers
within
to
low

   American cities since 1900 have been losing density.  It is not new.
However, all this misses the main point:  that our population is
concentrating in a few places and abandoning the middle of the country.  At
some point we will be spread rather evenly up and down the two coasts, plus
a few bands inland.  The concept that the world is just rural or urban is
totally obsolete.  Further, by 2025 according to the UN even Africa will
have 50% of the population urban (using traditional definitions).  There is
no need to try to force the American population into obsolete patterns of
ecology to make planners happy.


subject: Re: trains, planes and automobiles

text:
"Stephen Sprunk" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

   Except this is not true, even in NYC.  In NC, cities annex all land near
them and yet patterns of development are the same.  There are no legal
suburbs, and there are no distinct municipalities in suburban areas.  It
changes nothing.


author: Dr. Jai Maharaj

text:
Sandra Bullock Donates a Million to Tsunami Victims

Toronto Fashion Monitor
Tuesday, January 4, 2005

Sandra Bullock has donated $1 million to the American Red
Cross to support relief efforts in countries affected by
the earthquake.

Sandra Bullock, the star of "Speed" and "Miss
Congeniality", has donated $1 million to the American Red
Cross appeal to support relief efforts in countries
affected by the earthquake and subsequent tsunamis in the
Indian Ocean.

More here:

http://www.toronto.fashion-monitor.com/news.php/news/2005010403sandra_bullock

VHP of America Appeal - Tsunami Relief Fund

Forwarded message from "shyam tiwari" <[email]>

[ Subject: VHP of America Appeal - Tsunami Relief Fund
[ From: "shyam tiwari" <[email]>
[ Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004

Appeal - Tsunami Relief Fund

December 27, 2004
Dear Reader:

Namaste. The death and destruction wrought by nature's
fury in Southern Bharat, Shri Lanka, Indonesia, Thailand,
etc. is beyond comprehension. No words or pictures can
describe the horror of deaths and devastation. While
hundreds of organizations, governments and international
agencies are working on providing relief and succor to
the victims of this tragedy, there still would be need
for many more organizations, groups and individuals to
lend a helping hand.

Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America's creed is Seva, i.e.
social service.

Whether it is the Gujarat earthquake or World Trade
Center tragedy, VHPA has been in the forefront of raising
funds and making sure that the donations are channeled to
responsible, respected and accountable organizations to
ensure that the funds reach the very people for whom they
are intended. VHPA has over 25 years record of
transparency, efficiency and volunteerism when it comes
to help the victims of tragedies such as the Tsunami and
earthquake that has visited parts of Asian continent.

We request you to contribute generously and spread the
word by email, phone or personal contact to as many
people as possible.

100% of the funds will be sent to organizations with
unimpeachable integrity for helping the victims without
consideration of race, religion or creed. This is the
time for all of us to bend together and put our might to
provide help and hope to hundreds of thousands of people
who have lost everything.

How much to give? Swami Vivekanand said: 'Give, give and
give till it hurts.'

All donations to VHPA are tax exempt in the USA. A
receipt will be issued.

Checks should be made to VHP of America and mailed to:

VHP of America
P. O. Box 441505
Houston, TX 77244

In the memo line, write Tsunami Relief Fund

Contact Phones:

Girish Gandhi, Vice President, Seva: 973-580-8451

Virendra Parikh, Treasurer: 281-556-0241

Nachiketa Tiwari, Media & PR Coordinator: 508-261-1274

Gaurang G. Vaishnav, General Secretary: 732-744-0851

Email: [email]

Contributions can also be charged to a charge card by
providing full details, i.e., Personal information
including tel. # and email address, card name, card
number, expiration date and amount desired to be donated
and mentioning Tsunami Relief Fund.

Thank you for your generosity.

Yours in Dharm,

Gaurang G. Vaishnav
General Secretary

End of forwarded message from "shyam tiwari" <[email]>

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti


author: Bill Bonde

subject: Re: Sandra Bullock Donates a Million to Tsunami Victims

text:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
So this would be like the average person sending a cheeseburger to
Sumatra.


author: §§ Blue Ice §§

text:
Bill Bonde wrote:

no, it'd be like yr mom getting a meal in a day when there is little or
nothing left with her after a disaster.

i hope u got the point now.


author: Paulo Joe Jingy

text:
Bill Bonde wrote:

So, victims of the Tsunami would be better off if Sandra Bullock didn't
donate one million dollars to the Red Cross?

Did you send a cheeseburger to Sumatra?


text:
Paulo Joe Jingy wrote:
No, I sent the cheeseburgers I didn't eat to the starving in Africa.


author: TJMacWrit

text:
No, this is like you donating your car to the relief effort- not all of your
money in the world, you can survive without it so go ahead and donate it,
bitch! I'll bet you don't donate enough to buy a cheeseburger, asshole. As to
me, I applaud the very real generosity of Ms Bullock


text:
TJMacWrit wrote:
Please stop posting to usenet. It is clear that attribution and quoting
is something you can't figure out.


author: Gulshan Khan (wada Sain

text:
On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:59:13 +0700, ï¿½ï¿½ Blue Ice ï¿½ï¿½
<[email]> wrote:

LOLzz... look who is talking, a hindu starving chamar


text:
ï¿½ï¿½ Blue Ice ï¿½ï¿½ wrote:
By the time they got to Africa, they were rotten too.


text:
Gulshan Khan (wada Sain) wrote:

ain't u getting enuff leftovers at the mcdonalds u sleep outside in
toronto , u paki, al-quaida sleeping cell?


text:
In article <[email]>,
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A7=A7_Blue_Ice_=A7=A7?= <[email]> posted:

Facts about terrorist Islam and Muslims:

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti


text:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:44:09 +0700, ï¿½ï¿½ Blue Ice ï¿½ï¿½
<[email]> wrote:

Are you surviving on cow-dung burgers and gao-mutra?


text:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-6-2004_pg7_31

The begging bowl that feeds the baccha

Gulshan Khan (wada Sain) wrote:


text:
Eunuchs in Pakistan have their problems, but they also provide solutions
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/10/20/2003207719

Gulshan Khan (wada Sain) wrote:


author: Gulshan Khan (wada-Sain

text:
The great Brahmini paradise
http://home.cogeco.ca/~choot/Bombay/cjp_1758%5b1%5d.jpg

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:39:04 +0700, ï¿½ï¿½ Blue Ice ï¿½ï¿½
<[email]> wrote:


text:
here is a circumcised god, now worship just like your matha does.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~choot/3535.jpg

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:41:26 +0700, ï¿½ï¿½ Blue Ice ï¿½ï¿½
<[email]> wrote:


author: JeffM

subject: Need good NNTP service (was: MP3 Downloads)

text:
A recommendation for a *gasp* ISP with excellent retention:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/8ab97dddd33eb8e8/c8654d92011eb3e4?q=local-numbers-*-across-the-US-and-Canada+concito.net+*-three-year-expiration-on-newsgroup-postings+zz-zz+qq+including-binaries


author: SoCalMike

subject: Re: MP3 Downloads

text:
[email] wrote:
that reminds me...

i need to subscribe to a good NNTP service and start downloading
binaries again. comcast sucks for much more than reading stuff.

any ideas? cheaper is better, and retentions nice too. i dont wanna do
movies, just mp3s.


author: Anthony Matonak

subject: Re: MP3 Downloads

text:
SoCalMike wrote:
...

I've got comcast as well and newshosting.com seems to work well.
If you're looking for a free downloader, there's a fair one on
this site...
http://www.shemes.com/

Anthony


author: ChairMan

subject: Re: MP3 Downloads

text:
In news:[email],
SoCalMike <[email]>spewed forth:

newshosting.com has a pretty good deal on unlimited accounts,$14.95.
Speeds are decent(4.5Mbps-6.5Mbps) and retention is about 30 days.
For just some add on blocks Shared-Secrets and usenetnews were good.
or try here
http://www.newsgroupservers.net/
http://www.geeks.org/~ed/Usenet_Servers.html
http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/providers/providers.html

hth


author: Jeff

subject: Re: MP3 Downloads

text:
"ChairMan" <[email]> wrote in news:4436a31f$0$3690
$[email]:

www.buzzardnews.com  $6.95/month for 1.5 GB/day, unused bytes rollover,
other pricing plans available, good completion & retention


author: TigerPutts

subject: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
Saw "Panic Room" on (I think it was) HBO last night.  Frankly, I thought the
writing could have been tighter (and who am I to criticize David Keopp? I'm
just a "Putts.").

Possible spoliers below:

But the third act scene where the Jodie Foster character duct-tapes (it may
have been packing tape, now that I think of it) her almost mortally wounded
ex-husband to a chair with a gun in his hand, as she suggests that she's got
some sort of well-thought-out plan, just didn't ring true.

Geez, after all, her diabetic daughter's in the panic room with a cold-bloded
killer on the verge of death herself, and yet Jodie Foster sends the police
away and decides to deal with the bad guys herself by lugging a sledge hammer
around her multi-million dolalr "brownhouse."

The easiest solution (let the robbers have their gun back, get the daughter out
safely, then let the police deal with it) just seems to be the best solution.
After all, the money involved wasn't hers anyhow.

But the part that bothered me the MOST:  The thieves had a special drill with a
"Magnet ON" light.  This was brought to our attention, not once but TWICE, and
the second time, we were led to believe that the captive daughter had noticed
it as well.

So?  All we know for sure:  Milwaukee makes a special drill that has a magnet
on it, for drill bits, screws, etc.

And just so you know it's there, they put a "Magnet ON" light, so the whole
world can see that you actually have a drill WITH a magnet!

But it didn't seem to have anything to do with the movie, or did I miss
something?

TP


author: Jacques E. Bouchard

subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
[email] (TigerPutts) wrote in
news:[email]:

criticize
Foster
by

    	You're assuming that Jodie Foster's character could trust the
robers to let her and her daughter go unharmed. She did not, and they
in fact had no intention of doing so.

jaybee


author: noname

subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
I saw "Panic Room" just the other week, and it was one of the most boring
"films" I have seen. I can't believe the wasted talent in this movie.

There are enough plot holes in "Panic Room" to build another couple of panic
rooms.

And furthermore, the whole movie could have wrapped up within the first 30
minutes. When Jodie Foster (now I know why Nicole Kidman left this project
before shooting - I would too) first began to communicate with the
intruders, they mentioned that they wanted to get something from the room
she was in. All she had to do was continue this discussion, get the crap out
from the panic room, and leave it for the intruders (after all, it wasn't
her gear). Then everyone could have just left home happy (including me!!!).
But nooooo ... we were treated to another hour or so of unsuspenseful,
un-scary, and uninteresting "plot" developments. What a load of crap!

I was really mad at this movie. I can't believe it made so much at the box
office. It had a thinner plot than most action movies.

I ... just really hated this pile of junk!!!!!!!!!!!!
GGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Sorry

"Jacques E. Bouchard" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns9420CF7BB357Fjacquesbouchardyahoo@64.62.191.92...


author: Ken Brod

subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
"noname" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
panic
out
me!!!).

While it was a problem that after Foster learned that the burglars wanted
something in the panic room she seemed completely uninterested in what that
something might be, the something was locked in the safe. She couldn't
simply "leave it for the intruders."

I had a problem with Raoul's hand getting caught in the door despite the
fancy safety mechanism--which was demonstrated with the wave of a hand.

All in all, though, I liked it.

k.


subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
fancy safety mechanism--which was demonstrated with the wave of a hand.<<

I thought they kind of covered that when the real estate agent showed the door
had TWO electric eyes -- one at shoulder height, the other at ankle height.
The bad guy caught his hand, oh, I guess, at hand height.

I had a BIGGER problem with the door.  When it was demonstrated, and when Jodie
locked herself and her kid in the room, the door closed from right to left
(looking out).

When the bad guy caught his hand in the door, it clearly closed left to right!
Wasn't anybody WATCHING this movie while it was being made?

TP


subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
"TigerPutts" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
door
height.

That's true; they even glowed green. HOWEVER, the real estate agent, who was
very familiar with the workings of the door, rather casually waved his hand
in front of the sensor to stop the door. That's akin to demonstrating the
safety on a gun by pointing it into your palm and trying to squeeze the
trigger. No reasonable person would do that.

I'm all for safety devices that don't work because they are presented with a
situation that the makers did not anticipate (in the story that I'm working
on, every single one of the many safety devices fail). But the device in
Panic Room was too conveniently dumb.

Jodie
right!

I just popped in the DVD and didn't see this. Raoul was inside the room
facing the door when it slammed on his LEFT hand. Are you sure about this
one?

k.


author: Howie

subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
There *are* several problems with this script;

Jodie *should* have thought of asking them what was in the room.  She could
easily have struck a deal with them - they go downstairs while she puts 'it'
outside, then goes back in until they have taken it and left.  Withou asking
this, she could never have known it was in a safe she knew nothing about.
This simple question on her part would have maintained justification for a
plot that falls apart within the first 30mins until we know about the safe
much later in the script.

Once Jodie had the cellphone, she could have typed a text message and stuck
her hand out the hole - it would only have taken a small amount of ingenuity
to send a message even if the pipe was longer than her arm and it would very
likely have worked!

The door safety mechanism is clearly not safe!  I cannot imagine any
manufacturer approving something so obviously lethal and, speaking for
myself, I found the idea silly.  A simple solution would have been to find a
way for Jodie to disable the safety mechanism to prevent the bad guys from
tripping the mechanism should they get the chance.

The result is a script that is lazy and sloppy and I can only assume Koepp
wasn't given time to polish it!

"Ken Brod" <kenbrod @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5l8nb.9784$[email]...
the
hand.<<
the
was
hand
a
working
when
left


subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
"Howie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:HU8nb.1319$[email]...
could
'it'
asking
stuck
ingenuity
very

I take it you're a Brit. Believe or not, we really don't text here in the
U.S. I've had a cell phone for years but never texted anyone until I went to
London and haven't texted anyone since.

k.


author: Ron

subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
In article <HU8nb.1319$[email]>,
 "Howie" <[email]> wrote:

 I know a couple of people at different prodco's who read drafts of it
when it was looking for a home-- so I don't think this is the case.


subject: Re: "Panic Room"  missing a plot point?

text:
Okay, I really didn't have any problems with the movie until Jodie Foster
slammed the bad guy in the face with the sledge hammer and he fell down the
stair well and then somehow managed to get back up to attack her again.  That's
when my "fuckin' ridiculous" meter went off.

-Nick


subject: Medical/PPC request - Question

text:
Hi
I have received the medical and ppc request.In the request letter there
is written that I should send Police Clearance Certificate and Evidence
of undergoing medical examinations (is written on the returnable
coversheet that I have to enclose in my reply).What they mean for
"Evidence of undergoing medical examinations"?I was convinced that the
doctor send them all they need.
Any suggestion?

Thanks all.


author: Nicky & Dave

subject: Re: Medical/PPC request - Question

text:
Marcus, I would assume that by evidence of undergoing medical exam, they
mean the medical documentation that the doc sends. Haven't had ours yet
so sure one of the other forum members will confirm this, but I thought
you just take the returnable coversheet along with you to give to the
doctor at the time of your medical.

Nicky


author: ClaireandDerek

subject: Re: Medical/PPC request - Question

text:
Hi Marcus

They want the receipt you get from the panel doctor when you get the
medicals done.  If you are sending the police checks before the doctor
will be sending the medical results (remember it can take a week or more
for HIV results to come back) it is just to show DIMIA that you have had
medicals done and they can expect to receive them in next week or so.

Hope this helps

Claire


subject: Re: Medical/PPC request - Question

text:
I had the same question when I got my request back in Jan. I didn't send
any sort of receipt and there was no issue. In fact I sent the PCC and
other info ahead of doing the meds as there was a bit of a wait to do
them, and there was no issue at all from my CO. The doctor sending the
forms off should be enough.

Cheers,
Brian


author: manxfamily

subject: Re: Medical/PPC request - Question

text:
Strange, we didnt send receipts or anything, the doctor sealed and sent
off the medicals along with the Xrays and blood test results. The police
checks we sent to our agent and I assume they were then sent to our c/o.


author: Vinai

subject: FS: Powerprint, iShock, PB SCSI cable, Myth, misc

text:
It was time to do a little spring cleaning, and I have the following
items for sale.

- Infowave's Powerprint (USB to Parallel cable + CD)	- $35/obo
  (Allows use of parallel port printers with Macs with
  USB ports.)

- Macally ishock USB game controller + driver CD	- $20/obo

- 1 ft HDI-30 to C-50 SCSI PB cable (Apple branded)	- $15/obo

- Myth - The Fallen Lords CD				- $10/obo

- CD-ROM mounting rail for 7*00 Power Mac series	- $ 7/obo

Drop me a line with offer and/or questions.  Thanks.

vinai


author: Gennady Galanter

subject: Toshiba T4700CS laptop - for sale

text:
Decided to sell my T4700CS Toshiba laptop.  I would not probably sell it if I
did not need money urgently.  I purchased the system last year for $4,500.00
at CompUSA. It looks like brand new.  Has bunch of the accessories. Well,
judge yourself.

Laptop has following configuration:

CPU             - 486/DX-50
Memory          - 24M (expandable to 48M)
Display         - Active Matrix
Hard Drive      - 340M
Modem           - 14.4 Megahertz
Network Card    - Ethernet by 3Com
Mouse1          - Toshiba (attachable to the side)
Mouse2          - MS Mouse
Battery1        - One installed on the laptop
Battery2        - One additional battery was bought for $110.00.
Battery Charger - Additional Battery charger (I bought it for $150.00)
Manuals         - All original manuals for all the elements (Laptop,
        	  Modem, Network adapter ....)
Installation    - All original installation software for all elements.
Carying Case    - Brand new carying case.

Everything in excellent condition.

I am asking $2,050.00 or B/O.

I live in San Francisco Bay Area.

My regards,

Thanks.

Gennady.


author: Sluice

subject: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
Here in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, we have had a very wet spring.
Because it followed a couple of years of drought, I can't complain about the
rain, but I didn't want it to become an excuse for missing my long walks.
So, I found a place on the internet that sold good raincoats and umbrellas
and bought a couple of them.  Today, I walked up a mountain in the rain.
Not so bad.  It was just great to eliminate that excuse.

The hot weather excuse is another matter.  It will be averaging in the 90's
here soon, and that is a problem I can't resolve with a piece of clothing.
I would have to hike naked in order to handle the heat/humidity combination.
So, I am resolved to using my treadmill in the basement when the heat is
unbearable.

Just thought I would pass on my thoughts about eliminating the possible
excuses that cause us to miss a scheduled walk.  How do you handle it?

Sluice


author: Jaime

subject: Re: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
On Sat, 7 Jun 2003 21:35:51 -0400, "Sluice" <[email]>
wrote:

I go to the YWCA and use the treadmill.  :-)


author: Cat

subject: Re: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
I bought a golfer's umbrella--extra large. It is great here. We have quite a
few rainy days in the spring. Wind is impossible, though. Turns the umbrella
inside-out. However, you can hold Summer temps are murder (over 100 at
times). We had a record for the most number of days over 100 in our state.
The only way to walk in this heat is to get up very early in the morning and
go. (We don't have the humidity you have to deal with, though.) I'd like to
get a treadmill because I don't want to get up at 5 a.m. every morning,
which is what I'd have to do in the summer.

Cat

"Sluice" <[email]> wrote in message
news:NdwEa.4465$[email]...
the
90's
combination.


author: bj

subject: Re: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
I exercise in the heat, and I'm in DC, where it gets pretty damn hot & muggy
in the summer. We're having a cool wet late spring now, but I'm sure that
come July we'll be melting as usual! The choice will be morning with very
high humidity but maybe only in the 70's, or later in the day with 90+
degrees but maybe only 50% humidity! Of course, sometimes it's 90+ and high
humidity too.

I carry water bottles. When it's over 80 I carry one of them as at least 1/2
ice to start, it's thawed to cold water by the time I finish the 1st bottle.
I use 1/2 litre coke bottles and put in freezer 1/2 to nearly full, then top
off with cold water when I'm going out. When it's really hot, I carry one
that's 1/2 ice to start (+ cold water) and the other all-ice! I have a fanny
pack with 2 bottle holders.

I also wear wick-away clothing -- designed to wick moisture away from your
body -- rather than cotton -- coolmax, dri-fit/climalite/etc depending on
brand name & where I buy it. Walmart has some that's even cheap! And terry
wrist bands (like tennis players use) for face-wiping.

I never use an umbrellas for fitness walking. I have a Goretex rain jacket
w/ hood. Keeps my arms free. And if it's warm enough, I just say
what-the-hell and run/walk wet. I wear a hat so it's not dripping directly
on my face though.
bj

"Sluice" <[email]> wrote in message
news:NdwEa.4465$[email]...

90's
combination.


author: Marvin

subject: Re: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
Last year during the cold and snowy fall and winter season here in New
York, I put on my winter coat, hat, gloves, and boots if they were
needed, and got my hour walks in. If there was snow or ice on the
ground I would walk slower to avoid falling or I would walk in the
street which was usually plowed clean. If it was really slippery
outside, I would turn around, head home and walk on the treadmill in
my basement. I find that walking outside is much more beneficial for
me then walking indoors on a treadmill.
http://www.walkhabit.com


subject: Re: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
I do all the things you commented on, Marvin. Also, I bought a huge umbrella
(I think it is called a golf umbrella) in the men's dept. of a good store
here. It cost around $24, but it was worth it. Keeps me toasty dry in the
rain. I love to walk in the rain....because why? I'm the only one walking in
the rain. LOL!

Cat

"Marvin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
href="http://www.walkhabit.com">http://www.walkhabit.com</a>
spring.
about the
walks.
umbrellas
rain.


subject: Re: Eliminating Excuses (Weather)

text:
I just suit up in my GoreTex coat or jacket with the hood pulled up, and
don't care if I do get wet. Sometimes my shoes take several days to dry out!
But getting wet isn't going to hurt me. I just change when I get home
anyway.

I like to have my arms free.
But for those who want big umbrellas, check out thrift shops too!
bj

"Cat" <[email]> wrote in message
news:oAR6b.3017$[email]...
in


author: Evgeniy

subject: < -- 2 H1B questions -->

text:
I'm looking for some information relating H1B visas.
Question 1:
I found that such information (regarding H1B renewal fees):
on the >processing center.
Could somebody confirm this information? If someone knows for sure...

Question 2:
What happen if I post my document till the end of this season (1,
October), does it mean that my documents will be in progress
automatically for the next season???

Thanx in advance
Eugene.


subject: Re: < -- 2 H1B questions -->

text:
Originally posted by Evgeniy
information relating H1B visas.
information (regarding H1B renewal fees):
normal processing which takes 4-6 months based
center.
20 days.
knows for sure...
till the end of this season (1,
documents will be in progress

The processing fee is $180
(must have gone up since I had mine done last year - it was $130 then!)
- this can take quite some time. Yes - it does depend on the processing
centre.

The premium processing costs $1000 and I have a feeling that
they process it within 15 days. This is how I had mine done. Just so you
know (as I found to my cost), the employer is not liable for the premium
processing fee and can request you pay for that.

Not sure of the answer
to question 2 - are you employing an immigration lawyer? You could ask
them.

Another useful resource is http://www.h1base.com


author: J. J. Farrell

subject: Re: < -- 2 H1B questions -->

text:
"cathy22w" <member10122@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The employer is "liable" for all the fees - they are the applicant,
and the applicant pays the fees. There is nothing to stop the employer
declining to make the application unless the employee agrees to
reimburse all fees, and meet any other conditions or charges that the
two agree to.


author: Michael Carnell

subject: Mac Stuff Forsale

text:
Software
	DatebookPro/TouchbasePro	$35
	WordPerfect 3.0			$50
	Acius 4th Dimension 2.01	$50

Books:	$12 each, 2 for $20, 3 for $28, 4 for $35, all 5 for $40
	Mac Internet Tour Guide w/disk by Michael Fraase
	PowerBook Companion, 2nd edition w/disk, by Wolfson and Aker
	Inside 4th Dimension by Geoff Perlman
	Programmers Introduction to the Macintosh Family - Addison Wesley
	The Macintosh Reader by Doug Clapp

Hardware:
	IBM PS/2 Mouse by Logitech	$35
	Mac to PC/VGA monitor adapter	$10

Note:	Prices include shipping if prepaid.  If COD, you pay shipping
	and COD charge.  All products are legal, in working order, and
	include a transfer of applicable registration.  Reason for
	selling: switched back to PC from Mac.

Contact:
	Michael Carnell
	phone:  (803)556-0562
	email:  [email]
	P.O. Box 31994
	Charleston, SC 29417


author: [redacted]

subject: ** WANTED: IIsi or LC 1/0

text:
PTH: @not-for-mail @search01.news.aol.com @newstf01.cr1.aol.com @news.ans.net
@howland.reston.ans.net @EU.net @news.eunet.fi @news.spb.su @kaija
@palantiri.spb.su 2:5030/127.0
X-RealName: TheEric
Path:
kaija!news.spb.su!news.eunet.fi!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!newst
f01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: [email] (TheEric)
Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.mac
Subject: ** WANTED: IIsi or LC 1/0
Date: 25 Jun 1994 19:19:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: [email]
References: <2oabv5$[email]>

I am looking for an inexpensive bare bones machine. Something like an
si or even a LC.

Basically I'm interested in a machine with an internal video driver
and no extra memory or Hard Drive). I have memory and drives and am
looking to configure an inexpensive color set up for a friend of
mine.

Thanks,

Eric Hegstrom    [email]

---
 * Origin: Gated from Relcom by Palantiri NewsGate (2:5030/27.0)


author: TheEric

subject: ** WANTED: IIsi or LC 1/0

text:
I am looking for an inexpensive bare bones machine. Something like an
si or even a LC.

Basically I'm interested in a machine with an internal video driver
and no extra memory or Hard Drive). I have memory and drives and am
looking to configure an inexpensive color set up for a friend of
mine.

Thanks,

Eric Hegstrom    [email]


author: jc) [reposted because of rogue cancel] [reposted because of rogue cancel

subject: REPOST: Re: RFD: news.admin.moderation

text:
In article <9drrjf$rn1$[email]>, [email] (Jay
Denebeim) wrote:

What does it have to do with alt, pervert?

US?

Oh, so YOU are one of them?
What seems to be the problem here? Discussing the relevant
issues to the question of "moderation"?
You wish to censor certain issues, most critical issues
of the entire question of Freedom of Speech and democracy
as such?

So you ARE one of those totalitarian dicators yourself?

WHO is "we"?

Did you already form a club behind the scenes?
How do you know what others want?

Or you know it for sure?
In that case, it must be a pattern and CERTAIN tendency.

A pattern of totalitarianism that is.
An inevitable, undisputable and unquestionable tendency,
just like the history record wordwide shows.

========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Path: news.sol.net!spool0-milwwi.newsops.execpc.com!spool0-chcgil.newsops.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!isdnet!news.internetia.pl!news.tpi.pl!news.onet.pl!news.tvn.nn.pl!202.169.133.50.posted
From: [email] (jc)
Newsgroups: tvn.milionerzy,news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Subject: cmsg cancel <9dscl9$gp7$[email]>
Control: cancel <9dscl9$gp7$[email]>
Date: 15 May 2001 23:56:37 GMT
Organization: Sponsor: Numen s.c. (http://www.nn.pl/)
Lines: 1
Approved: [email] (jc)
Message-ID: <cancel.9dscl9$gp7$[email]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.18.11.53
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.169.133.50
X-Trace: news.tvn.nn.pl 3601314840 202.169.133.50 (15 May 2001 23:56:38 GMT)

Tooling for Rebecca's Anus: <9dscl9$gp7$[email]>

========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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From: [email] (jc) [reposted because of rogue cancel]
Newsgroups: cz.net.abuse.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Subject: cmsg cancel <5$-_-$$$%-%_%%__-$@news.noc.cabal.int>
Control: cancel <5$-_-$$$%-%_%%__-$@news.noc.cabal.int>
Date: 17 May 2001 09:55:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Liberec
Lines: 1
Approved: [email] (jc) [reposted because of rogue cancel]
Distribution: cz
Message-ID: <[email]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.145.149.97
X-Trace: morticia.kit.vslib.cz 990093134 9570 203.145.149.97 (17 May 2001 09:52:14 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: [email]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:52:14 +0000 (UTC)

Preemptive Cancels?  Guido, that don't work: <5$-_-$$$%-%_%%__-$@news.noc.cabal.int>


author: Rob Mitchell

subject: REPOST: Re: What is the story behind Hipcrime, from the beginning....

text:
[email] (librarian) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Lol, you're posting a bunch of responses in this thread to articles
that are almost 2 years old?  I've heard of taking a while to
formulate a reply, but this is a new one on me. ;-)

Rob

========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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Message-ID: <[email]>
Control: cancel <[email]>
Subject: cmsg cancel <[email]>
From: [email] (Rob Mitchell)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Lines: 24
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:59:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.24.6.96
X-Complaints-To: [email]
X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 995327987 24.24.6.96 (Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:59:47 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:59:47 EDT
Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Syracuse NY
Xref: news.uni-stuttgart.de control:36111949

One more bizarre laptop or inferno, and she'll annually keep everybody.
What Chris Suslowicz's strange MPEG propagates, Wieslaw Kochanski
pulls inside insecure, haphazard arenas.  What will you contribute the
ugly major active UDPs before Upa Nahasapeemapetilon does?  It
spalls, you lart, yet Frogbutt never inadvertently beeps outside the
<remainder snipped>


author: sysop

subject: Re: Message To David Cathey!

text:
In article <[email]>,
   postmaster <[email]> wrote:
initial connection with zone.montagar.com.
The original message was received at Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:14:28 -0500
from india.lm.com [192.231.221.17]

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
<[email]>  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
<[email]>... Deferred: Connection timed out during initial
connection with zone.montagar.com.
Message could not be delivered for 5 days
Message will be deleted from queue

   ----- Original message follows -----
Return-Path: [email]
Received: from india.lm.com (india.lm.com [192.231.221.17]) by
ivory.lm.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24073; Mon, 25 Mar 1996
09:14:28 -0500
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:14:27 -0500 (EST)
From: DrG <[email]>
X-Sender: [email]
To: "David L. Cathey" <[email]>
cc: [email]
Subject: Re: Goodbye (was Re: Tim Skirvin's hate list:)
In-Reply-To: <[email]>
Message-ID: <[email]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, David L. Cathey wrote:

it
you!
no
Hey, the fucking Nx sends mail whether the button is in or out.
I can not figure it out.

Hey motherfucker, it is not my fault.
And if you are not going to be adversarial, then I do
not mind the e-mail, but you are an old cabal-kid who has
fucked over susan, and that is unforgiveable.

resigned!
Hey man, that is old news.  15 years ago.. My whole trouble was caused
by
a lesbian cunt, and I would not change a thing if I did it again.

I have no time to read Lawyer jokes.

=========================================
please keep all responses to usenet


author: Blinky the Shark

subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
"Lady Geneviï¿½ve" <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns91A6276CAABC0JenKiwakuMMI@198.80.55.10:

Damn, Lady (and I use the term in the respectul, formal upper-case
manner. of course <g>) -- that's awful.  My primary feed's got 7,000
and cis.dfn.de's showing almost 15,000.  Even "What's A Newsgroup?"
Earthlink has 2,600.  Not trying to make a numbers game out of this,
but you might want to shop around a bit.

What did you go to, for mail?  A lot of we/us Xnewsers seem to use
Pegasus Mail.


author: Koan G

subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Blinky the Shark <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns91A6BEEA7215BlinkyNews@209.155.56.94:

Out of interest, I'd like to junk OE as my mail client, except I
can't find an obvious replacement which works as well with hotmail
(i.e. allows off-line storage of emails that are still on the hotmail
servers). I looked at Pegasus 4 and Eudora 5.1, no joy there. Any
thoughts? (Sure I could dump hotmail... but I'd sooner not, just for
now!)

Cheers,


author: R.A.G. Seely

subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Koan G <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns91A75ABC922C6koangee@130.133.1.4:

I don't use hotmail or web2pop, so cannot comment on how well this works,
but you might want to check out http://www.jmasoftware.com/ - they claim
their programme will allow you to access webmail via pop and so you could
then use whatever email client you wanted.

(I do use operamail.com - has real problems at times - and fastmail.fm,
both of which allow pop access, when I want webmail.  When you think of
leaving hotmail, you might think of adding pop support to the list of
"essentials" you look for in a webmail host.)

-= rags =-


author: Jeremy Howard

subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Koan G <[email]> wrote in message news:<Xns91A75ABC922C6koangee@130.133.1.4>...
The feature you're discussing is provided by a protocol called "IMAP".
You can get an IMAP account from http://fastmail.fm . When using
Eudora (or Netscape Mail, or Mulberry, or...) with FastMail.FM you get
off-line storage of emails that are still on the FastMail.FM server.
It works just like Hotmail with OE (only it's more reliable, and not
proprietrary). OE can also use IMAP.


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Koan G <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns91A75ABC922C6koangee@130.133.1.4:

Thoughts?  Yeah, but you won't like 'em -- I'm one of those
Xnewsers/Peggers I mentioned.  :)

And as for others, I've tried them, but since I've never caught the
Hotmail fungus <g>, I dunno if any of them would be useful there.


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
"R.A.G. Seely" <rags__A@T__math.mcgill.ca.invalid> wrote in
news:Xns91A77B25AD4E7linearfunctoroperama@127.0.0.1:

I've downloaded it and had a quick play with it; basically a local
proxy. Works fine for incoming mail, but only for the inbox folder.
Any others (e.g. Junk Mail, custome folders) aren't accessible.
Also, you need an SMTP server to send (which specifically rules out
hotmail). And, it seemed to conflict nastily with Norton Anti-
Virus, but I'm sure that's a case of PEBKAC! [1] So, as of yet, not
quite the full solution; but I'll keep an eye on the site.

Bottom line for me with web-mail; ease of access, reliability and
continuity of service. I don't think hotmail (for all it's, er,
quirks) is going to go belly-up anytime soon. The material on
fastmail.fm didn't instill me with 100% confidence on that score.
You're absolutely right, POP (and ideally SMTP) access is high; and
since Yahoo already has those, I may just jump ship and bite the
bullet re. changing addresses. (Might cut down some of the UCE
too!)

Thanks for your help.

[1] "Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair" - if anyone didn't
get my drift! :-)

Cheers,


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
[email] (Jeremy Howard) wrote in
news:[email]:

Interesting... I was aware of the support for IMAP in Eudora and
Pegasus, but had problems configuring access to hotmail in other
IMAP-enabled clients, so I'd kind of deduced that hotmail was IMAP-
ish but not IMAP (in typical MS "buck the standards" fashion).

Fastmail sounds really interesting. I'll checkit out! Thanks.

Cheers,


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Koan G <[email]> wrote in message news:<Xns91A88443D9F6koangee@130.133.1.4>...
You're absolutely correct. I meant that IMAP provides the exact
features you requested, not that it's the protocol that Hotmail uses.
Hotmail uses Microsoft's HTTPMail protocol. It provides the same
functionality as IMAP, but rather than follow an existing standard MS
naturally decided to invent an incompatible replacement... It's based
on Webdav, although OE/Hotmail's implementation is an extremely dodgey
implementation of Webdav...

It is interesting. It's my site, actually. One interesting feature is
that we use HTTPMail to allow you to get your Hotmail messages
downloaded into your FastMail.FM IMAP mailbox. To do that we reverse
engineered the HTTPMail protocol (which is why I could describe it in
some detail above! ;-)

Anyway, this isn't really the right spot to discuss it. Head over to
http://www.emaildiscussions.com and click the FastMail.FM forum where
there's an extremely active user community.

If you're considering using IMAP, look into Mulberry
(http://www.cyrusoft.com) which is much the most powerful IMAP client.


author: David B

subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Jeremy Howard posted this on news.software.readers:

Thanks for the info. I signed up yesterday for an account, I've
always wanted to have a play with IMAP, so I thought this was the
perfect chance :-)

I've read the FAQ's etc, but have you got any more info on how you
are likely to progress with the different account options, i.e. will
you keep a low Mb mailbox, ad-free, free account available?


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
[email] (Jeremy Howard) wrote in
news:[email]:

(Blushes, embarassment this time) Er, don't take my comments in my
other post too much to heart, then; I know what it's like bringing a
technology solution to the market, without jerks (like me) doubting
its probability of survival. I hope the business model you've arrived
will allow the site to flourish. Genuinely.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Cheers,


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
David B <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Yes. (Well, the free one reserves the right to display ads one day,
but if we ever do they will be text-only).
  http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/pricingtbl.html

Please followup to our forum at http://www.emaildiscussions.com . This
has gotten off-topic...


subject: Re: [X-News] Suggestions or Wishes

text:
Koan G <[email]> wrote in message news:<Xns91A86FFA39554koangee@130.133.1.4>...
Don't worry about it--we're used to it. We think the lack of VCs or
corporate parents to pull the plug means we're more likely to survive,
but not everyone feels the same way...

We've been around 3 years, so we're not about to disappear. One of our
non-exec directors is a VP with one of the world's top strategy
consulting firms, and he's made sure that the business model is
rock-solid too. Maybe in another 3 years time people will be more
confident... ;-)


author: Dave Ratcliffe

subject: Re: _A DOS USERS GUIDE TO THE INTERNET_ WITH SOFTWARE ONLY $15.95

text:
The message that prompted this was posted to the most Ghod-awful mix of
groups: Newsgroups: misc.books.technical,comp.mail.uucp,biz.comp.services,
            alt.internet,ba.internet,alt.bbs,cle.biz,mi.biz,chi.forsale,
            ny.forsale,dc.forsale,la.forsale,misc.forsale

In article <[email]>, [email] (Customer Liaison Service) writes:
- We are overstocked on the book, _A DOS USERS'S GUIDE TO THE INTERNET_
- by James Gardner. Our normal price is $24.95, but we are cutting the
- price to $15.95. This book comes with a diskette containing a full UUCP
- implementation by MKS Systems including USENET and E-MAIL handling
- software. This also comes with a coupon for 20% off other MKS products

[ remainder of commercial announcement deleted ]

- The Rabbit Network, Inc.
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- Customer Liason Services    [email]  Phone: 313.790.0094
- The Rabbit Network, Inc.                              800.456.0094
- 31511 Harper, St. Clair Shores, MI  48082        FAX: 313.790.0156

Well, he's baaaaaaaaaaaack. When I saw "Rabbit Network" I wondered if it
could possibly be.... Nawwwwwww.

So I send a polite message:

The reply was brief and to the point.  A single line asserting that
"they" don't agree with the accepted policy regarding commercial
postings.

OK, I sent back a reply stating that I would be posting a note to the
net regarding this view and if I didn't hear back I would quote the
Email exactly. The sound of a virtual lawyer being cocked was loud and
immediate. And the note was signed by Johnny-boy hisself! He refers to
the commercial restrictions policy as "relic from the past which is
outdated" and accuses me of being arrogant for believing that everyone
agrees with it, something I never said.

Well, some things never change. Johnny boy does what he wants until
someone comes along and slaps his wrist.

In closing he said:

OK John, then I won't. Excerpting, however, is kosher even if you don't
like that either.


author: Bryan Miller

text:
Dave Ratcliffe appears to have written on 4 Apr 94 18:13:53 GMT:

Perhaps there is another way to convince him <g>.  I think that
a couple hundred mail messages may bring his system to it's knees.
What a jerk!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
  \\___//
  |     |       Bryan Miller
  |_____|       Embedded Software Engineer
  || o ||       Control Systems Software
  || \\||       Powertrain Electronics Department
      \\        Ford Motor Company
       o        TEL : 313.84.54248
      //        FAX : 313.32.36743
     O		EMAIL : [email]

            <<< I don't speak for Ford, nor they for me... >>>


author: Tom Markson

text:
[email] (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:

I sent a polite note and got back something that said "get used to it
and get over it".

How obnoxious.  I may cease to accept and pass on articles from his site.

Is there a better recourse?

--tom


author: Trif

text:
In article <2nso0a$[email]>,
Tom Markson <[email]> wrote:

I wish.  I've just been through an email discussion with the owner of
Eskimo North who posted an advertisement to several groups:


author: Troy Piggins

subject: slrn score file efficiency [was: leafnode vs slrnpull - speed?]

text:
[added news.software.readers back since it's now slrn relevant]
* Troy Piggins wrote:

[I hate following up my own posts...]

Ok, to test I moved my score file temporarily and entering article mode
is almost instantaneous.  So apparently my scorefile is either too big
or too complex.

My general philosophy/layout of my scorefile is this:

- kills (=-9999 score) go first and the "=" ensures that post needs no
  more processing.
- my posts and followups get a =+ score also so processing stops.
- interesting people/topics get incremental +ve scores in all groups [*]
- finally group specific score +ve interesting subjects, -ve
  non-interesting subjects

That's basically it.

I do have some nested score rules, not sure if they increase or decrease
processing time.

Anyone got some tips on speeding it up?

I could post examples of mine if the above needs clarity.


subject: Re: slrn score file efficiency [was: leafnode vs slrnpull - speed?]

text:
* Troy Piggins wrote:

[dammit - did it again...]

Got it!  I had some entries for scoring excessive crossposting to
multiple newsgroups.  The Newsgroup: header is not, according to slrn's
scoring doc, in the overview file.  My score file now only contains
scores based on:

Subject
From
(Date)
Message-ID
References
(Bytes)
(Lines)

and it's much faster!  I don't actually have scores based on the
headers in brackets above, but those will also give fast scoring.

This from slrn's score docs however:

... slrn offers two special keywords that also allow
efficient scoring: "Newsgroup" (the newsgroup that the article is part
of) ...

I'd like to know the definition of "efficient" here.  Obviously you
/can/ score on it, but jeez it slows down the processing.

Any other tips still welcome.

Thanks for the point in the right direction Sinner!

Not happy about the multiple crossposting rules, I like them :-(  (maybe
leafnode can handle that side, will look into it).


author: SINNER

text:
* Troy Piggins wrote in news.software.readers:

Glad to be of service ;)


text:
Troy Piggins wrote:

That's pretty much how I prioritize, as well.  Your first two steps are
exactly my first two steps.

Use the Xrefs header.  At least at NIN and Earthlink, that's in XOVER.  Check your
server(s) first.  Filter on colon count.


text:
* Blinky the Shark wrote:
[snip]

Thanks for the tip.  I've got max crossposts set in leafnode figuring
it's better to filter there rather than in the reader, but I'll file
your tip for future possible scenarios.


subject: server name

text:
I've been using Google Groups and want to start using a newsreader.
I followed a link I saw posted here to a site with FAQ's about the
subject of newsreaders, and saw this text:

Get server name.
Check with your ISP or whomever supplies your Internet connection...
Check with your Internet provider as to whether the server
authenticates or not. If it authenticates, ask what username and
password you should use.

I don't use the internet at home or work -- I get on the internet at
various cafes in New York City (they aren't hard to find).  How will I
be able to get the name of a server that provides news, since I don't
have a service provider to ask for it?


author: Mike Easter

subject: Re: server name

text:
[email] wrote:

You need a newsreader appropriate for your operating system and you need
a newsserver, either free, nearly free, or paid, which paid cost depends
upon your setup and usage.  Historically, ISPs have provided news
service as part of the connectivity package like a mailbox;  nowadays
some do and many don't.

There's a newsgroup to discuss free newsservers, which spills over into
nearly free and not quite so free, alt.free.newsservers

There's also a newsgroup to discuss newsreaders, news.software.readers.

And there's the nnq faq/s and links in the trailer of every post in this
group including this one, and there's a useful message posted here
called [TIP] What newsgroups are and how they work - most recently
posted Dec 27

Many people are in the same boat as you are without a provider of a
newsserver, since even those with providers frequently don't have
providers who provide news -- so finding a newsserver and a newsreader
is a common effort of many.

Some people have a mail user agent which doubles as a newsreader, but
many choose a dedicated newsagent.


author: Whiskers

subject: Re: server name

text:
On 2006-01-20, [email] <[email]> wrote:

Assuming that you mean that you use the computers provided for public use
in 'internet cafes' and such places, then there is probably no direct way
for you to set up a personal new-reader and establish an account with a
news-service provider.  That arrangement is somewhat reliant on you having
a computer and internet access of your own.

A way around this might be to get yourself a 'shell account' -
effectively, sharing a segregated chunk of the resources and internet
access of someone elses computer system.  You could log in to your shell
account from wherever you happen to be in the world and then use the
programs and files you have installed or saved there.  The drawback could
be that you would probably have to learn how to use the Unix or Linux
'command line' interface, and text-based programs - no GUI, no 'windows',
probably no 'mouse' or 'menus'.  So there would be a steep learning curve
if you haven't done that sort of thing before.  I don't know if shell
accounts are in fact accessible from public computers, I've never felt th
need to find out.

There are public news servers you can sign up with independently of any
ISP; some of them are free, most are not.  Likewise shell accounts.  Web
searches should give you more information about both.  This search looks
as though it brings up some useful information about shell accounts and
internet cafes:
<http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=%22shell+account%22+%2B
%22internet+cafe%22&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8> or
<http://qurl.net/qR>.

I think some internet cafes may offer 'regular users' more than the basic
web-browser-only internet access and software; ask the proprietors of your
favourite places.  Or buy a laptop with 'wireless access' and get a
'wireless ISP account' and use 'WiFi hotspots'.


author: DS

subject: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Hi,

I just came back here to look to see what was new, and apparently bogus
parts in multi-part binaries is new.

This concerns me as I am writing a binary nntp d/l'er (I've had help from
you guys before, thanks for your help....2/3 done now).

I had some quick ideas, maybe you can let me know if these may help out if
my app runs into this.

Here is my process:

After parsing a header dataset string, i look for (x/x) or [x/x] starting
at the end of the subject and working back. (I know the issues with this
one)

If that is found, it is removed from the subject string and put into 2
columns (partNum, partTotal) of the db, along with the other data.

To combine the parts:

1) I then sort the db by subject ,date , partNum

2) Then I step thru the resulted data. If i come across a part 1 of 1, it
triggers a possible multi-part procedure.

3) This procedure then continues to step thru the data until the subject is
not the same as the 'part 1 of 1' subject. (Remember, I removed the (x/x)
from the subject.) For each step this proc does, it checks to see if the
Sender is the same, if the partNum is one greater than the partNum before
it, and the date is newer than the last. When it gets to the 'assumed' last
part, if each msg from 1/1 to 30/30 (or whatever) satisfies all these
criteria, it marks it as a complete multi-part post.

So.....after reading about these bogus parts, I feel I need to do a couple
other things:

1) Be sure the msgID after the '@' is all the same also.

2) Figure out how to verify the last part. Or not, maybe, if it's sorted by
date the good last part would always come first. This would insure that of
all the parts I receive the 'good' parts would be before bogus parts. So if
somehow a bogus part 5/20 was there, it would be dated after the real part
5/20. Sooooo, if I changed the sort order to be Subject, partNum, date, if
the two consecutive records are both part 5/20, I would then ignore the
second part 5/20. Sound right?

Does this sound like enough ? (Altho being an IT guy, I truly know that
virtually anything can be hacked if someone wants to hard enough.)

Thanks in advance,

DS

-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
   http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----


author: Juergen Helbing

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

New is that some autoposters permit the users to specify the subjectline
without any respect to the automatic detection.
I've meanwhile seen all kinds of sickness out there.
Including duplicate (1/n) and [1/n] mixed at any position.
And - of course - posting combined with multi threading which
causes also the date order to be no longer reliable.

This job is harder than ever.
Actually it is close to impossible.
Be sure that you offer a "manual join" feature :-))

Sometimes another user is reposting a missing
(or corrupt) part.
If you dont find the "original's sender" part, then feel free to
scan for reposts with a different FROM header.

I dont know how all those multi-thread autoposters are
acting. But I would expand the scope to a few hours - not a strict
sequence. (I am myself ignoring the date and the author and I am
sorting only by subject).

It is not too difficult to find "good & complete" posts with this method.
The art would be to find those who are "ugly & complete"  ;-)

Does not apply on reposts.
Sometimes a poster is continuing is post the next day.
Or he is sending fills (single messages) through a different account.

Using the date to seperate posts from reposts can be fine.

I gave you my own actual status - based on my own developments
for my own newsgroups-tool (MyNews).
God only knows what the neticens will create next week.

It would be a good time to publish the "Best current practice"
for multiparts on Usenet.....  (any volunteers, but myself ?)

HTH


author: Rob Maxwell

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
"DS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t> wrote in message
news:92F1AA3EDidispcom@128.242.171.114...

They are posting preemptive bogus parts, as well. IOW, if they see a 42 file
post starting, they will post bogus pieces of say, the 30th file before the
real pieces are posted. So, the bogus pieces precede the real ones.

-Rob


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Yes....always a manual join.

By a missing or corrupt part, do you mean a fill for a file...say a repost of
.r20, or do you mean part 10/20 for .r20? I would assume that you ?can't?
repost a single part of a binary file broken up into multi-part's. Well, not
that you can't, anything can be done manually. Do the posting program's allow
that, or can you just repost a whole file?

Again...only assuming here, but I would *think* that they would work on a per
file basis and not a per part basis....but, I may be grossly mistaken. I'm sure
I will find out.

It's kind of funny, but I use Newsgrabber and ZeoNews for d/l'g, and it seems
to me that my app comes up with more complete posts (on a file basis) than
either of those, and that scares me. But when I go into the db's and look at
the raw data, it sure looks like I've done everything correctly and indeed
there are more. Since this is my first attempt at an NNTP client, you'd think
it wouldn't work that well. Oh well.....

Thank you for your time,

DS


author: Russ Allbery

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Bas Ruiter <[email]> writes:

Oh, no.  uuencode is much older than that.  It was included in BSD 4.0,
which was released in 1980, so it almost predates Usenet itself.

What probably became common around 10 years ago (although really, it was
still a good bit before that) was actually posting binaries to Usenet in
any quantity.  (uuencode was originally more used in e-mail, IIRC.)


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Bas Ruiter <[email]> writes:

I think that's mostly because that's when people started sending
attachments -- in other words, it's not that they were using something
else before then.

BinHex is a Mac thing, and was used instead of uuencode by Mac users
because it understood such things as resource forks.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
[email] (DS) wrote:

I am really talking about part 10/20 for .r20
There are programs out there which permit reposting single segments.
And one of the purposes of yEnc was to permit this on a regular base.

There are - of course - a lot of newbies (and OE-users , <sigh>) who
are asking for complete file reposts because they dont even know
which segment they are missing.
But also a growing number of posters is answering to fill-requests
only on a "per-segment" base.

So your decoder should be able to accept such fills.
Else it would be jsut another part of the problem instead a solution.

You want to visit the MP3 groups.
There you find often requests for reposts of single segments of an mp3 file.

I did also sent out third-party-fills with MyNews for testing that feature.
And it seems that most newsreaders are today even able to accept
such fills with a different FROM header.

We programmers should do EVERY effort to reduce repost traffic
to the necessary minimum.
(Bad luck for you to visit news.software.nntp. Some dreamers here... ;-)

Your advantage as a "new programmer" is that your software is designed
to operate well on the CURRENT status of Binary Usenet.
Other software is still relying on facts which are no longer valid.

So dont wonder why your software finds out more complete multiparts.
Alone the fact that (01/17) is used as well as (1/17) is a problem for
software (if it relies on any kind of length calculation).
And who wants to try out all combinations of round and square brackets
when they appear twice or three times from both directions just to find out
which one is the real indicator ?

If you look "manually" (eye-ually) to the message list sorted by author
or date then a human with normal intelligence can find out how to
combine posts. But from own experience I know how difficult this can be
for a software - especially when it comes to 200.000 lines in the overview...

In former times I really wanted a 'standard' outfit for the subject line.
But I found out that these 'variations' make sense....
If there is one thing which Binary Usenet does not need then it is
a perfect multi-part downloader.....   :-)

Good luck !


author: Bas Ruiter

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Oh.. I know it's older than that.

But 10 years ago is around the time which I saw it first getting used.
That and.. what was it.. BinHex? For eMail attachements.

I didn't discover Usenet until '94. And binaries later still.

 Bas Ruiter


author: Curt Welch

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Russ Allbery <[email]> wrote:

And the program for decoding BinHex files is called xbin.

And the "Official XBIN Home Page" has nothing to do with Usenet or BinHex
files.


author: Jeremy

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Juergen Helbing <[email]> wrote:

What would be wrong with being able to do it right?

I didn't design any real security into my spec, but perhaps a header
containing cryptographic authentication would be helpful.  If a newsreader
could be told to ignore any alleged parts which don't verify, the problem
would be solved.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
"visually inspect" is the term u are looking for, I think :)

 Bas Ruiter


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
OE !!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA.....but seriously, I've been d/l'ing from usenet for a
long time and it never occured to me to ask for a repost of a single
missing part from a file.

I always just set my reader not to show incomplete binaries, but then
again, I've been using Zeonews and Newsgrabber (sometimes XNews) which both
assemble parts across all your servers, and the more servers, the more
completes.

This could be even more hassle for the poster, req: part 8 of 52 for
whatever.r10, req: part 13 of 52 for whatever.r10, req: part 27 of 52 for
whatever.r10

And if for some reason or another that particular file gets screwed up
during posting, I can see requests for half of the parts, coming from 15
different people.

My life is filled with bad luck, what's a little more.

Just new to NNTP programming.

Did I notice that in the past month posts to the mp3 groups started to have
a lot of mPart indicators at the end using square brackets ?

Maybe it's time to write some innovative NNTP server software instead of
client software. Well, client software to support it too obviously. If the
people who write the posting software can do just about anything they want,
why can't the people who write the server software do the same!!!

DS


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Jeremy <[email]> wrote:

1) If it could be done right then Usenet became "everybodies darling".
_Then_ we could talk about volume growth :-)
Imagine 100 million users switching from Kazaa to Usenet.

2) A perfect tracing of the Usenet content would make it attackable.
Today nobody knows what's out there - and this is good.
If tracing would be easier then the neticens would find other
way to hide.... which would cause more problems than before.
Solving the problem would create the next one.

3) Fills and Problems are a part of social life on Usenet.
Degrading it to a high volume and high speed file sharing medium
would be not an improvement but kill an important part of it.
(Better such feedback - requests for fills - than none at all)

Technically a better multipart/splitted file identification and detection
would be highly desirable. Especially the news->web services would
have an easier life. But Usenet Life is not just technology.

We could even start to specify proper binary posting right now.
(And perhaps even Microsoft would implement it before I declare
then finally dead on Usenet ;-)

But I'm still investigating how to solve the upper issues before
I'll do the next foot in myself shoot.... :-)

Further input highly appreciated.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Bas Ruiter <[email]> wrote:

Thanks for the correction.
So I failed introducing a new word into the English language. :-)

I've been build systems for 'visual inspection' for 20 years
(industrial systems) - but this term still does not describe
the action.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

This is not very helpful.
If a video is posted as 20 RAR files each 50 segments then you
will see perhaps 18 of them and the remaining 2 are invisible.
So your only chance would be to ask for a full repost of the
two RAR parts.
Software which is hiding incompletes and Servers which are not
showing multiparts before they are completely available are
a part of the PROBLEM, not fo the solution.

Neticens are posting such requests.
And good posting software makes it very easy to fulfill such requests.

Beg your pardon. Wrong text.
Someone who is using complex algorithms for sorting is
- of course - not a programming newbie, but just entering NNTP
for the very first time - what is your advantage.
(as I did four years ago after 28 years of 'normal' programming ;-).

We discussed this earlier - and the only progress for Binary Usenet
since a long time was made on client side.
The new discussion about xBin uses the same approach.
I've learned that reader-servers and transit-servers are far too busy
to do addiitonal jobs.

Good Luck


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

Have you been following all the xBin talk here?  Do you understand the
significance of how this is going to change all of what you are talking
about here?

Though we haven't talked much about the repost problem, with xBin
technolgy, requesting reposts can be done in a machine readable fashion.
The download tool knows exactly what it needs, and simply by hitting a
button, the user can post a re-post request which no human every has to
"understand".

The download tools could all understand it, and, automatically figure out
what that user has downloaded that could be reposted to help out.  Anyone
that had download the files being asked for could decide to help out simply
by hitting a button to repost some, or all of the parts being asked for.

Well, xBin is likely to make Usenet volume and repost traffic go though the
roof.  But I think it will greatly improve the useablity of Usenet, which
is more important than keeping traffic low.

We can.  And we do. :)

But xBin needs to start on the client side.  If it takes hold, then we will
add intersting stuff to the servers to keep the evolution moving.


author: Rene

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

Neither did I. But I'm not so long using the binary side of usenet and on
top of that, I've got quite some patience.

Well apply human heuristic here:
If #reposts requested > some_limit then full_repost

I think that's what he meant.

xBin - as Curt already mentioned, we're currently discussing this here. It
is a change on the client software side, completely transparent to the
servers. However servers may take advantage of this system, if they want.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
OK. I may have decided to abandon my binary d/l'r. It's not that I've
bitten off more than I can chew, but by the time I get this done, usenet
binaries will go by the way of Napster, which will just about kill the
whole purpose of this project. If it's not just some idiot hacker posting
fake parts it's people the software and music companies have hired to do
so. Fighting database issue's, trying to squeeze every bit of performance
out of it without bloating code. The past month and a half just working on
msg d/l's and combining. And now that's all going to change....again.

I mean, what do all you guys do that you have all this time to work on this
stuff, discuss it, argue about it. I'll never be able to keep up with the
ever-changing face of usenet. I'm just one guy with a vision, albeit a
blurred one apparently.

DS


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
[email] (Juergen Helbing) wrote:

We've talked about this idea in terms of using a file-hash as a
universerial ID for files posted to Usenet.  It's an important point
because it could prevent a standard like xBin from ever taking off.  But
the more I think about it, the less I'm concerned.  All you have to do is
change 1 bit, anywhere in the file, to complety change (and hide) it's
previous identity.  Most stuff posted is already compressed, or modified in
ways that change 100% of the data even though the "content" is the same
thing someone else posted.  And all the media content like
sound/pictures/videos can have a few bits changed with no effect on the end
result if you change the right bits (which is easy if you have the right
tools which many of the people posting this stuff do have).

The warze is harder to hide because it can be a bit tougher to change bits
in the orginal content, but anything can be distirbuted in a different
bundled format like tar and zip which includes a new file date on something
and then the identity is still hidden.  I suspect that the universial ID
"fear" issue is going to be a complete non-issue. And for the few people
that care and aren't already doing something that would make it a
non-issue, they will take that extra step to find some way to change at
least one bit in what they post.

The other side of this is that there is nothing stoping people from using
hash technolgy to trace files now, but yet that's not doing anything to
stop Usenet other than to make the spammers work a little harder.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
[email] (Juergen Helbing) wrote:

Growth is there anyhow. And people are quite inert to switch from one's
accustomed tool to another. Add to that the fact that full usenet access
with binary groups typically costs on top of your internet access whereas
Kazaa or whatever P2P application you fancy does not.

You don't add tracing as much. Yes a file gets an unique identifier with
xBin. So suppose someone wants to block a file for whatever reason, he
first has to get hold of that file_id in question. Then he has to download
that file by himself to ensure it really is what it is labelled as. Then he
needs to contact all (or most) news server operators to immediatly delete
all the articles containing that file_id signature (now and in future when
a feed wants to send the same file_id again).

So me being the evil poster, I just repost the file with one bit changed.
New File ID, same game for the blocker to perform.

But what's so different from that scenario from today? Instead of one
file_id, get all the message-id's. What does not change, with or without
xBin is the fact that a) the server operators don't know what they
transport, unless they really go and look at it themselves b) an index of
file_ids/message-ids containing articles to reject/delete can only be built
AFTER the file has been posted. Updating and synchronizing this index is a
nightmare. c) usenet still is a decentralized distributed system.

Add to that that IF xBin should somehow allow a third party to remove
content from usenet, you can still fall back to what is used today.

There's still place for fills in xBin.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
[email] (Curt Welch) wrote:

Nice statement. I'll pin it to my wall.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

We had a lot of such discussions in the last 20 months.
Many people make proposals - most of them are very serious.
But the implementation, realisation and acceptance are different things.

Dont panic. Sit and Wait. Meanwhile write your downloader.
Changing the detection method is just 3% of the total work.

Good Luck !


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

We discuss a lot more than we end up changing.  Don't let our ideas prevent
you from making a difference in the world.  It didn't stop Juergen.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a..n.e.t (DS) wrote:

Actually Napster is dead...

I know, there are independent servers using the same technology, but I
wouldn't bet my horses on any centralized system nowadays. (Which by the
way means that Kazaa is doomed too... its only partly decentralized)

No, xBin is no standard - yet. We're just discussing it - yet.

Well that's how you do *good* software design: You spend much time
discussing it, find pro and contra-arguments so you end up with something
you DONT have to adapt every other year.

If we push xBin now, create the xBin 1.0 standard just to make a mistake
and need to rectify that in a year in xBin 1.1 then we indeed made a big
mistake ! Better spend a lot of time discussing and then release something
that works, and works well a long time. At least that's my opinion.

As for your question, I'm a info-(comp-sci) student waiting for his
mandatory industry-internship to start so yes, I do have lots of time
currently.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
A lot of things get discussed (repeatedly), but very little gets
implemented. Actual development (changing) of NNTP / Usenet is very
very slow.

 Bas Ruiter


author: Thomas

subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Rene wrote:

And fills work much better with xBin. Just a need to repost the missing bytes,
no need to recreate RARs to repost. And just reposting the missing fragment is
enough.

PAR style reposts would need to be the size of the largest posted article, but
could work well.

PAR files being just a single article would be a nice idea.

Thomas


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Rene <[email]> wrote:

In the actual situation I dont want to discuss this further.
There is too much "third party" for my taste.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Thomas <[email]> wrote:

Yes. Or to formulate it differently: An xBin compliant client can pick its
rosines (wanted data) from any number of posting-, repost-, fill- articles
until it has all it needs. Automatically.

Yes it works, all we need is a "virtual segment size" for the sake of
defining the size of a PARity-file and a way to mark those PAR-files as
containing parity data for a specific file hash.

Well not really. It is important to note that PARity files and Reposts are
two entirely different things. The ReedSolomon Parity system is used as a
FEC (Forward error correction) while repost/fills are error recovery.

If you have enough data plus FEC parity you can fix the problem silently.
If you don't you need to "fill a repost request". This request needs to be
satisfied somehow, so that's a process involving at least two different
parties whereas the FEC data may give you all you need in advance. Also
reposts / fills have a longer latency.

Put it in short: PARity is a pro-active mechanism and reposts/fills is a
reactive mechanism to make up for lost articles/data.

A combination of both methods is the best, imho. I think both methods
should be implemented by xBin. However, the PAR file generation or fixing a
file using PAR files is a complex enough process by itself (more complex
than xBin alone) so to not shy away any prospective implementer of xBin, I
have thought of a way to make xBin "par" compatible while at the same time
does not require a client to implement the ReedSolomon Raid algorithms. I
had the idea yesterday but couldn't write it down yet. I'm but catching up
on all the messages posted since yesterday so I'm going to write about that
sooner or later.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
[email] (Juergen Helbing) wrote:

You wouldn't enlighten me in what way the words "third party" is enough to
stop having a discussion about xBin, would you? For I really can't make any
sense out of your statement.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
UUE became common around 10 years ago, judging from my
own recollection.

The idea for a new / better encoding scheme has been
repeatedly discussed and dismissed for years.

yEnc itself is the result of about 1 to 2 years work
on Jeurgen's (and others) part, as well as being a
contunuation of everythign that came before.

When you say "it didn't take very long", you're correct
if you mean it has really quickly taken off with the
public after it was 'released'.

 Bas Ruiter


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Rene <[email]> wrote:

A point about pre-posting PAR files ...

Don't.

Most usenet articles are "lost" because the "bucket is overflowing".
Posting more data to usenet makes the problem worse, not better.  Every
article you post which get's through to one of the serevers with less than
100% completion, causes some other article to be dropped instead.

It's a war of escalation which cannot be won.  Posting par files in advance
improves the odds that "your post" will get through, but will reduce the
odds slightly for every other article posted to Usenet for those "broken
servers" which aren't keeping up with the volume.

So, even though PAR is an FEC system, it's best not to use it like that.
It's best to use it as a technolgy for posting fills were 5 PAR files may
have the power to "fill" 40 missing parts from 100 different servers.

PAR files posted intelligently and retroactivly based on fill requests are
doing Usenet a service - they help the bandwidth be used for the stuff
people want (i.e. the stuff people take the time to "vote for" by posting a
fill request), and they minimize the bandwidth needed to get the data out
to the people that want them.

PAR files posted in advance are mostly a disservice to Usenet.  It's an
arrogant assumption that not only do people want what you posted in the
first place, but they want it more than other things which you will be
"breaking" only worse by adding PAR files to the original post.

xBin helps this because it will be able to make the pick-up of reposts and
PAR files retoactivly all automatic.  And it will allow automatic repost
requests systems to be created which gives that much needed feedback from
the "consumer" to the "poster" as to what should or should not have been
posted in the first place.  The more feedback like that which we can
encourge, the better the system will work to make sure that what is posted
is the stuff the people want the most.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Rene wrote:

But why not post the RS data as required? It is called "Forward Error
Correction' but there is no need for it to be posted in advance.

That is the way it is now. From the outside, Usenet looks like a lossy medium.
But it is not so much randomly lossy as capacity limited.

Pre-sending FEC data makes the loss problem worse.

But reactively sending clever gap filling data is actually more efficient than
plain reposts.

BTW, is anything stopping people from posting a PAR set later, of a lot of
repost requests come in?

I can imagine a simple repost format that posts XORs of blocks. The msg-id
format could be similar, but it would be tagged as a XOR post of the relevant
block ranges. Thus, if A is missing 20-30 of a 100 part post, and B is missing
60-70, the reposter could post the XOR of 20-30 and 60-70. Both A and B could
use this to reconstruct their data.

Maybe a more clever scheme is possible that understands block ranges. Perhaps a
msg-id that mentions a large block range, and offering the correction data for
any N blocks in this.

It is good to tie PAR into this somehow. The xBin reader tool could then
auto-pickup the PAR parts as needed.

Hopefully the transition from repost to PAR style functionality can be smooth
(i.e. xBin 1.0 to 1.1).

Thomas


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
[email] (Curt Welch) wrote:

I know about that problem. Still there might be "legitimate" use of
pre-posting PAR files.

For example in the situation today: I check my newsgroup
alt.binaries.myfavoriteseries and I just happen to see an episode posted I
always ever wanted. Wow cool, finally THAT ! But then I also see that it is
incomplete. Some parts are short/missing. Drat. But wait, the poster also
pre-posted PAR files. So I can count these, count the number of missing
parts and I know instantly if I can have the file complete now. I could of
course simply start and hope for reposts or request reposts myself. But
when I see PARs I can also calculate if I can get the file without reposts
now.

So it makes a difference in an user-driven system that is used now. I get a
better picture of the completion of a certain file (or let's say, I can
easier guess the probability to get a file correct with as few hassles as
possible)

The disadvantage you've shown and it is there. Most posters are probably
not aware of that though.

It can be used as a fill-mechanism, yes. Its seldom done today though. At
least I don't see it happen often.

xBin with PAR ability should use it in that way, definitly. However there
are some new problems with an automatic repost request system. The
problem's root lies in the fact that there is no global "simultaneousness".
The view of any file's articles is not only different per server, but also
differs according to the time when a reader is starting to consider a
file_hash interesting.

For example: Let's take a server with a low retention. A file which is
perfectly complete on "any other" server here is already being expired.
Half of it is gone, the rest still there. (The server knows no xBin, so it
drops articles according to some FIFO) A reader comes, starts downloading
the remaining half, then after some time fills a request for filler-files
(be that parity or full reposts of blocks) Now we've already established,
that automatic execution of fill-requests are a bad thing. Still if someone
has pity and sends the fill, then that means that one of the high-retention
servers now has the complete file plus X refills it wouldn't need.

Switch the view back to the low retention server: The user there has his
file and is happy. More articles expire, the original post is gone. BUT the
fills are still lingering around. Another reader comes, picks the fills,
requests more fills... etc.

So in the end, this becomes a purely social problem: If repost requests are
fullfilled too often, then the volume grows stronger. Which is what we
don't actually want. But that is a factor that is completely out of the
spec's hand. All we can do is to forbid any xBin compliant-client to
automatically fullfill a repost request. This could become a problem but
its nothing xBin can really control (and its nothing that is far different
than the current situation, isn't it?) Still, keeping an eye on that
"automatic repost request system", that up to now hasn't been formalized
yet, wouldn't be too bad.


subject: Re: Multi-part fakes: Questions

text:
Thomas <[email]> wrote:

The tools to make it easy and automatic both to create the correct PAR
files and for the users to pick them up.

That's my thought about how PAR technology would work with xBin.  The
kicker is that you can't easilly protect against forged PAR files.  If
people start to attack the PAR files, the posters will be forced to stop
using them and just go with straight re-posts of all the missing segments.

I wonder if you xor idea might help here?  An XOR is a poor-mans
reed-solomno system, but maybe it has some advantage of using a 'cheap'
syystem like that.  If the XOR was an XOR of two other posts, then you
could post one XOR file to fix two two fill requests from independend users
asking for different parts (I need parts 4 8 10, someone else needs 4, 9,
and 12), you post part 4, and a XOR file for 8-9, and another xor for
10-12, allowing you to post 3 articles to fill 5 requests.

But, with the XOR file, you include the x-bin-signature for both the parts
it's combining.  You can't veryify the xor file by itself, but anyone that
one of the xor segments, could quickly generate the matching pair and then
use the signature data to verify it.

It's not as powerfull as PAR, but it might be useful because it's more
reasonable to verify.

You could do the same with PAR files limiting the data to 2 blocks, or use
PAR with with small sets like 4 blocks and incluce 4x the amount of
signature data.  The more blocks you include, the harder it is to identify
a forged PAR file.

If PAR file xBin support is to be added by newsreaders "later", we need to
do it now in our proof-of-concept code before xBin 1.0 goes out.  It's too
complicated to just let it "wait for later" and hope we did everything
write in 1.0 to make it possoble in 1.1.

But if we figure out how a PAR-like system should work with xBin, then it
would be good to allow support for it to be added later.  Adding xBin
support shouldn't be too hard to any posting tool, and xBin verification of
parts will be easy to add to any current download tool,  but PAR support
will be harder, as well re-creating download tools that work completely
differently to support the real power of xBin (i.e. auto reaping missing
parts over time vs just using it to correctly identify a set of posts).