subject: RESULT: rec.ponds passes 361:77

text:
VOTE RESULT

                       Unmoderated group rec.ponds

Voting closed on 12 December 1994 at 23:59:59 GMT.  The results are:

 Yes   No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
 361   77 :  Yes   Yes :   Yes : rec.ponds

There were no abstentions.

This margin is adequate for newgroup creation.  There will now be a
five-day period during which corrections to the vote count may be
made.  Barring serious controversy about the vote, the group will
be created shortly thereafter.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.

Vote-taker: 		Mark James <[email]>
Group proponent: 	Janette Wallis <[email]>

Newsgroups line:
rec.ponds		Pond issues:  plants, fish, design, maintenance.

CHARTER (as printed in the Call for Votes)
-------

Rec.ponds is an unmoderated newsgroup to provide a forum for the
discussion of all aspects of ponds or water gardens.

The rec.ponds newsgroup will appeal to a wide range of people
involved in both the recreational and professional aspects of establishing
and maintaining a pond or water garden.  We'll have novices to water
gardening as well as experts, the hobbyist as well as genuine botanists
and ichthyologists.  Even students wishing to find help with science
projects may decide to read rec.ponds.  All of these people will be
welcomed to share ideas, ask questions, or simply lurk and learn.

Examples of discussion topics might include:

* Building a pond/water garden:
Details will be shared regarding best materials to use, procedures for
making the pond secure, and appropriate placement of the pond.  Or, in
the case of a naturally occurring pond, what can be done to make it more
"user friendly"?  We'll have tips on building a waterfall, installing a
fountain, whether to use a filter, and how to install a biological
filter.  Also, we may give information on lighting and how to safely run
electrical lines to the pool area.

* Establishing a perfect ecosystem:
Where else can you create your own ecosystem and watch it evolve?
We'll have discussions on water quality; ratio of plant life to animal life;
plant/animal interactions, etc.

* Plant life:
We'll discuss which plants are best suited for our water gardens.  Which
plants need a lot of sunlight, which will survive in the pond over
winter, which need to be taken indoors, etc?    The rec.ponds
newsgroup will serve as a forum for discussing plant diseases and cures,
when to divide, and how to propagate our plants.   We'll also share
information on establishing an area for bog plants.

* Fish:
We'll share information on fish behavior, biology, and health.   For
example: Which fish are compatible?  What's the maximum number of fish
for the size of a pond?   What conditions should exist in the pond so
the fish will breed?  How do we protect the fry from danger and see that
they grow into healthy adults?   Which diseases are likely to affect
pond fish?   How much should we feed the fish, and how often?

* Amphibians and reptiles:
We'll discuss the biology, health, and behavior of frogs, newts,
salamanders, turtles, etc. that either come naturally to the pond or are
placed there by us.  Which ones get along?

* Other environmental concerns:
In rec.ponds, we'll discuss how to make certain the pond is
not a safety hazard for small children or pets.   How can we attract
butterflies?  Should we attract snails?   Also, how do we guard against
unwanted visitors (raccoons, cats, snakes, herons) that may prey on the
fish and/or plants in a pond?    What about the use of fertilizers or
insecticides near the pond?   Rec.ponds can be a place to
exchange information on (non-political) conservation issues.

* Miscellaneous:
Students can use rec.ponds as a place for learning more about plant and
animal life in and around water.  We may exchange information regarding
suppliers of equipment, literature regarding water garden techniques,
location of other electronic resources, etc.  (However, rec.ponds is
*not* intended as a forum for commercial transactions with respect to
sale of plants, fish, or pond equipment.)

* In the future, rec.ponds may develop FAQ's that address each of
the above topics.

VOTE ACKNOWLEDGMENT
-------------------

These lists are sorted in alphabetical order by login name, as taken
from the "From:" line.  Note that certain UUCP addresses are mangled
somewhat in order to sort nicely.

YES votes were received from the following people:

[email] (Ann Kuntz)
[email] (Arnold Chamove)
[email] (Aaron Friesen)
[email] (Al Crosby)
[email] (Allan Dong @ EMPR)
[email] (Robert S. Schrieber)
[email] (Earl J.S. Rook)
[email] (M Lightman)
[email] (Anne Louise Gockel)
[email] (Sargasso)
[email] (Cynthia S. Amack)
[email] (Angela Devito)
[email] (Anita Easton)
[email] (Pineda, Alexis A)
[email] (Tony Ardizzone)
[email] (Thomas D Arendt)
[email] (Arlene Ripley)
[email] (Derek Milton)
[email]
[email] (JEROME H. BARKOW)
[email] (Mike Bartolone)
[email] (Rod Baxter)
[email] (Bob Dockery)
[email] (Bengt Larsson)
[email] (Beverly Cook)
[email] (Burgess Howell)
[email] (Arlene Probert)
[email] (Susanne MacLean)
[email] (Bill Parker)
[email] (Blair Inch)
[email] (Debra Moore)
[email] (King Barbara J)
[email] (Bruce Jones)
[email] (Barbara Weintraub)
[email] (Bob Zinn)
[email] (BOGGY)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Brad Heckman)
[email] (Brett Bloomquist)
[email] (Brian Bailey)
[email] (B. G. Smith)
[email] (Evan Zucker)
[email] (Gary Burton)
[email] (Chris King)
[email] (Howard M. Finkelstein)
[email] (Carie Nixon)
[email] (Catherine Watson)
[email] (Christopher Hall)
[email] (Clarence Barker)
[email]
[email] (Catherine Fitch)
[email] (Chana)
[email] (Christos Vasilikiotis)
[email] (colin (c.w.) kemp)
[email]
[email] (Charles Malone)
[email]
[email] (Qartek Coalatl)
[email] (Coder)
[email] (microelectronics laboratory)
[email] (Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.)
[email] (Fred Criscuolo)
[email] (Clive Steward)
[email] (Craig Verver)
[email] (Chuck Hasenkamp)
[email] (Dan Lanham)
[email] (Dan Settles)
[email] (Dale Palmer)
[email] (David I.Roach)
[email] (Dave Faoro, MGR S/W DEV SMF)
[email]
[email] (Dawn Whiteside)
[email] (Dawn Holt)
[email]
[email] (Dale.B.Bonar/Aquatic.Environmental.Services)
[email] (Dave Sheehy)
[email] (Dave Denman)
[email] (Dave Filippi)
[email]
[email] (David Jenkinson )
[email] (Daniel Kell)
[email] (Dominique Emerson)
[email] (Menk, Donna)
[email]
[email] (Ross Greenberg)
[email] (David Bedno)
[email] (David Simon)
[email] (David G. Saville)
[email]
[email] (Diane Palme)
[email] (David Lee Sprague)
[email] (David Kirkpatrick)
[email] (Dirk van Assendelft)
[email] (David H. Westendorf)
[email] (David Brockman Wheeler)
[email] (Eddie Matejowsky)
[email] (Jean Conway)
[email] (Eddie Lee)
[email] (Eric Scheirer, E15-401C)
[email] (ELAINE THOMPSON)
[email] (Eric Garbos N29675)
[email] (Eric Olson)
[email] (Robert Smits)
[email] (Edward Vielmetti)
[email] (Gerald W. Roe)
[email] (Don Burns)
[email] (Eric Prestemon)
[email] (Eric Schnoebelen)
[email] (Edward J. Sikora)
[email] (Emery Lapinski)
[email] (Janette Wallis)
[email]
[email] (C. Tim Featherston)
[email] (angela quealy)
[email] (Kathy Fueston)
[email] (Ed Gaillard)
[email] (Gandalf Parker)
[email] (Eric W. Ganko)
[email] (Garfield Monteith)
[email] (dalton)
[email] (Grant Davis)
[email] (EuGene epetai-Tramaglino)
[email] (Liz Gensheimer)
[email] (Gene Hobbs)
[email] (Mark Gilman)
[email] (Glen Osterhout)
[email] (Glen Biagioni)
[email] (George Kimble)
[email] (Mark. Gooley)
[email] (Wilson Angerson)
[email]
[email] (Caleb Billingsley)
[email] (Hal Skurnick)
[email] (Charlie Hattendorf)
[email] (Mike Hefner)
[email] (Henning Holtschneider)
[email] (Hilda Marshall)
[email] (Dean Hougen)
[email] (Howard Mansfield)
[email] (Howard Rebel)
[email] (Harold Slater)
[email] (Wayne Hughes)
[email]
[email] (Gary Benson)
[email] (Juanita Barone)
[email] (Jack Mcneary)
[email] (Jacqueline Greenleaf)
[email] (Jan Forbes)
[email] (Jerry Cullingford)
[email]
[email] (Jeff Thaw)
[email] (Jenine Abarbanel)
[email] (Jon. Feinstein)
[email]
[email] (John F. Woods)
[email] (jay gitomer)
[email] (James William Studt)
[email] (Jim Murphy)
[email]
[email] (Jim Moore)
[email] (Joseph L. Todd)
[email]
[email] (John Creasey)
[email] (John Cummiskey)
[email] (John Heidmiller)
[email] (John Templeton)
[email]
[email] (Jill Peterson)
[email] (Jeff Rieman)
[email] (Julia M. Masser)
[email] (Jim Lewis)
[email] (Cynthia Kramer)
[email] (Karen Isaacson)
[email] (Kevin Crader)
[email] (Kristine Diana Daniels)
[email] (Kristen J Gremillion)
[email] (K Hession)
[email] (Kim Rachmeler)
[email]
[email] (Stephen King)
[email] (Kippi Fagerlund)
[email] (Kanghoon Lee)
[email] (Ken Shellberg)
[email] (Kerry C Michaels)
[email] (Keith Mueller)
[email] (kirkandrew ryan )
[email] (Kevin Schnitzius)
[email]
[email]
[email]
[email] (Ladd Dan)
[email] (Charles Lane)
[email] (Larry Smith)
[email] (Chuck Lawson)
[email] (Lisa Cecere)
[email] (William LeBorgne)
[email]
[email] (Shawn L. 'LeroY' Price)
[email] (Joel B Levin)
[email] (Linda or Robert Golder)
[email]
[email] (Larry London)
[email] (Luis A. Rodriguez)
[email]
[email] (Lois Ward)
[email] (Leon Wise)
[email] (Lynsey Gedye)
[email] (David MacAfee)
[email] (Mace, Michael)
[email] (mark stephens)
[email] (Mark Hebets)
[email] (Mark A Lilly)
[email] (Mark MASON)
[email] (Matt Lindenfelser)
[email]
[email] (Gary Maxwell)
[email] (Mike Northam)
[email] (Catherine Dobbins M.D.)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Melynda Reid)
[email] (Matthew William Mengerink)
[email] (Eric Mercer)
[email] (Steve E. Mercer)
[email]
[email] (Matt Harrop)
[email] (Mike Hatz)
[email] (Kathleen Holt)
[email] (Mike Mckeage)
[email] (Mike Morris)
[email] (Cathy Drzyzgula)
[email] (Barbara Mitchell)
[email] (Mark-Jason Dominus)
[email]
[email] (Matthew John Latimer)
[email] (Michael Lester)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Mr. Clean)
[email] (Michael A. Ricci)
[email] (Martin Schroeder)
[email] (Mack Stephenson)
[email] (Mel Walker)
[email] (Jill Barrett)
[email] (Jennifer Bendemire)
[email] (who?)
[email] (Natasha V. Pearce)
[email] (Nathan Mehl)
[email] (Hien Ngo)
[email] (Jamie Nicholl)
[email] (Dr A.J. Cann)
[email]
[email]
[email] (david parsons)
[email]
[email] (Pat Thaler)
[email] (PETER WIEBE BURKA)
[email] (Phil Densmore)
[email] (heckler)
[email] (Bob Peck)
[email] (Pete Hoffswell)
[email] (Peter Orelup)
[email] (Jeff Pfohl)
[email] (Paul Graham)
[email] (Paul Hoffman)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Paul Lord)
[email] (POPA G L)
[email] (Rob Switala & Bill Edgin)
[email] (Paul S Gardner)
psk@kira (Per Skovgaard)
[email]
[email] (Tom the Melaniephile)
[email] (John Raithel)
[email] (Randall Lee)
[email] (Roland Beauregard)
[email] (Ralph J. Brown)
[email] (Robert W. F. Clark)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Brian Reid)
[email] (RICHARD KIMBALL)
[email] (Rick Estell)
[email] (Rev Dr Phil Herring)
[email] (Rex di Bona)
[email] (Dan Reynolds)
[email] (Richard J. Sexton)
rickb@ekcolor (Rick Bettencourt)
[email] (Riley Hoselton)
[email] (Robert M Atkins)
[email]
[email] (Rodger Madison)
[email] (Rolland Thomas)
[email] (Richard Terrell)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Russell Randolph)
[email] (Russell Parrish)
[email]
[email] (Steve Oakey)
[email] (Damien Weiss)
[email]
[email] (Scott C. Cartwright)
[email] (Martha W. Schaefer)
[email] (Yannis Schoinas)
[email]
[email] (Susan Farmer)
[email] (Scott H. Finfrock)
sfonda@compuwiz (Stephen Fonda)
[email]
[email] (The Great Pumpkin)
[email] (Sandy Shinn x4771)
[email] (Shirley Moore)
[email] (Brian R Silverstein)
[email] (Steve Jackson)
[email]
[email] (Rebecca Sobol)
[email] (Stephen M. Quan)
[email] (Stephen J. Lever)
[email] (Bill Stoffel)
[email] (Sunil Gupta)
[email]
[email] (Steven Warthan)
[email] (DAVID SYZDEK)
[email] (Teresa L Baker)
[email] (Tod B Bussert)
[email] (Theresa J Flynn)
[email] (Terri L. Fischer)
[email] (Thomas F. Elmer)
[email] (Thomas G. McWilliams)
[email] (Tim Harvey)
[email] (Richard Hamilton)
[email] (Gen Thurlow)
[email] (Droz)
[email] (Tim Gornet)
[email] (Terry Koontz)
[email] (Tom Maddox)
[email] (Tom Elrod)
[email] (Marco Antonio Sandini Trentin)
[email] (Tim Prachar)
troc@loreli (Rocco Caputo)
twilleyj@amdahl (John Twilley)
[email] (Eric Vaandering)
[email] (Venger's Orchids)
[email] ( VINCENT J HALE 0130761)
[email]
[email] (Darrell Walker)
[email] (Kent Walker)
[email] (information-junkie)
[email]
[email] (Weston Furukawa)
[email]
[email] (Will Dyson)
[email]
[email] (Keith Brummett)
[email] (Whetzel's mail sec)
[email] (Xopamondo)
[email] (Communication)
[email] (Christian Zoega Jessen)

NO votes were received from the following people:

[email] (Andrew Henry)
[email] (Adam Finkelstein)
[email] (Karl Krech)
[email] (Vincent Archer)
[email] (Jim Ault)
[email] (Ben C. O. Grimm - Praesidium Libertatis NL - )
[email] (B.J. Herbison)
[email] (Bruce Baugh)
[email] (Aliza R. Panitz)
[email] (Clarke Brunt)
[email] (Ernest A. Cline)
[email] (Diane Barlow Close)
[email] (Kenneth P Crouch)
[email] (carl e snook)
[email] (Christopher Ward)
[email]
[email]
[email] (Dave Weil)
[email] (David)
[email] (Eric S. Deese)
[email] (aron smith)
[email] (Christopher Estep)
[email]
[email] (Craig Burley)
[email] (Greg Woodbury)
[email]
[email] (Pete 'Happy' Thomas)
[email] (James Harvey)
[email]
[email] (Hud Nordin)
[email] (Brent Sutherland)
[email] (Ian Jackson)
[email] (Jeff Murphy)
[email] (Jim Davis)
[email] (Jim Jewett)
[email] (Jay Maynard)
[email]
[email] (Jon Bell)
[email] (Scott Dorsey)
[email] (Cor Lamain)
[email] (Lantz Rowland)
[email] (Lee Paulsen)
[email] (Gerry Swetsky)
[email]
[email] (Mike Yang)
[email] (M Mike Taksar KC6ZPS)
[email] (Wes Morgan)
[email] (Helge Nareid)
[email] (Noel S. Gorelick)
[email] (Nick Ingegneri)
[email] (M. Otto)
[email] (Patrick J. LoPresti)
[email] (phil reed)
[email] (Pierre Uszynski)
[email]
[email] (Pete Bastien)
[email]
[email] (Rebecca Drayer)
[email] (Dan Resler)
[email] (Ryan Waldron)
[email] (Richard H. Miller)
[email] (Roger.B.Jones Jr.)
[email] (MR DONALD C HWANG)
[email] (Ralph Waters)
[email] (Glenn A Sacks)
[email] (Stan Ryckman)
[email] (Simon Lyall)
[email] (Dick Smith)
[email] (Steve Bonine)
[email] (Dwight Brown)
[email] (Tony Basoglu)
[email] (This advertising space for rent. Respond by EMAIL.)
[email]
[email] (Karl G. Ulbrich)
[email] (Una Smith)
[email]
[email] (Steve Willner)


author: Mark James

subject: 2nd CFV: rec.ponds

text:
2nd CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)

                     Unmoderated group rec.ponds

Newsgroups line:
rec.ponds		Pond issues:  plants, fish, design, maintenance.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 12 December 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only, contact Mark James <[email]>.  For
questions about the proposed group, contact Janette Wallis
<[email]>.

CHARTER
-------

Rec.ponds is an unmoderated newsgroup to provide a forum for the
discussion of all aspects of ponds or water gardens.

The rec.ponds newsgroup will appeal to a wide range of people
involved in both the recreational and professional aspects of establishing
and maintaining a pond or water garden.  We'll have novices to water
gardening as well as experts, the hobbyist as well as genuine botanists
and ichthyologists.  Even students wishing to find help with science
projects may decide to read rec.ponds.  All of these people will be
welcomed to share ideas, ask questions, or simply lurk and learn.

Examples of discussion topics might include:

* Building a pond/water garden:
Details will be shared regarding best materials to use, procedures for
making the pond secure, and appropriate placement of the pond.  Or, in
the case of a naturally occurring pond, what can be done to make it more
"user friendly"?  We'll have tips on building a waterfall, installing a
fountain, whether to use a filter, and how to install a biological
filter.  Also, we may give information on lighting and how to safely run
electrical lines to the pool area.

* Establishing a perfect ecosystem:
Where else can you create your own ecosystem and watch it evolve?
We'll have discussions on water quality; ratio of plant life to animal life;
plant/animal interactions, etc.

* Plant life:
We'll discuss which plants are best suited for our water gardens.  Which
plants need a lot of sunlight, which will survive in the pond over
winter, which need to be taken indoors, etc?    The rec.ponds
newsgroup will serve as a forum for discussing plant diseases and cures,
when to divide, and how to propagate our plants.   We'll also share
information on establishing an area for bog plants.

* Fish:
We'll share information on fish behavior, biology, and health.   For
example: Which fish are compatible?  What's the maximum number of fish
for the size of a pond?   What conditions should exist in the pond so
the fish will breed?  How do we protect the fry from danger and see that
they grow into healthy adults?   Which diseases are likely to affect
pond fish?   How much should we feed the fish, and how often?

* Amphibians and reptiles:
We'll discuss the biology, health, and behavior of frogs, newts,
salamanders, turtles, etc. that either come naturally to the pond or are
placed there by us.  Which ones get along?

* Other environmental concerns:
In rec.ponds, we'll discuss how to make certain the pond is
not a safety hazard for small children or pets.   How can we attract
butterflies?  Should we attract snails?   Also, how do we guard against
unwanted visitors (raccoons, cats, snakes, herons) that may prey on the
fish and/or plants in a pond?    What about the use of fertilizers or
insecticides near the pond?   Rec.ponds can be a place to
exchange information on (non-political) conservation issues.

* Miscellaneous:
Students can use rec.ponds as a place for learning more about plant and
animal life in and around water.  We may exchange information regarding
suppliers of equipment, literature regarding water garden techniques,
location of other electronic resources, etc.  (However, rec.ponds is
*not* intended as a forum for commercial transactions with respect to
sale of plants, fish, or pond equipment.)

* In the future, rec.ponds may develop FAQ's that address each of
the above topics.

RATIONALE
---------

Because most water gardeners have both plant and animal life in their
pond, discussions on development and care of ponds has previously been
split between rec.gardens, rec.aquaria, and rec.pets.herp.   There is no
newsgroup dedicated only to the interests of water gardeners.

HOW TO VOTE
-----------

You should send E-MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to:

      [email]

Just replying by E-MAIL to this message should work, assuming you are
reading this using standard newsreader software.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following statements:

      I vote YES on rec.ponds
      I vote NO on rec.ponds
      I ABSTAIN on rec.ponds
      I CANCEL my vote on rec.ponds

You may add a comment, or use other wording, but only a definite,
unconditional, unambiguous statement for or against the creation of
rec.ponds will count as a vote.

Neither ABSTAIN nor CANCEL messages are counted as votes; they serve
only to cancel any previous vote.  Abstentions are noted in the final
vote list, whereas CANCEL removes your vote from that list entirely.
(This is the only difference between the two.)

If you later change your mind you may vote again; only your last valid
vote will count.

All votes will be acknowledged by E-mail.  If you don't receive an
acknowledgment within a few days of your vote, vote again.  It is your
responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply: no more than one vote per person,
no more than one vote per account.  If you attempt multiple votes or
other vote fraud, all your votes may be canceled and your name published.

RESULT
------

The complete vote list will be posted with the vote result, including
how each person voted.  Note that Usenet votes are not done by secret
ballot.

There will then be a five-day period during which the published vote
list may be corrected and any irregularities addressed.  The
requirements for group creation are 100 more YES votes than NO votes,
and 2/3 of all counted votes being YES.

BOUNCED VOTE ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
----------------------------

Vote acknowledgment messages to the following address have bounced.
(The vote has been counted.)

[email] (Steven Warthan)


author: Mark Moraes

subject: Usenet Software: History and Sources

text:
Archive-name: usenet/software/part1
Original-from: [email] (Gene Spafford)
Comment: edited until 5/93 by [email] (Gene Spafford)
Last-change: 14 Dec 1995 by [email] (Mark Moraes)
Changes-posted-to: news.admin.misc,news.misc,news.software.readers,news.software.b,news.answers

Currently, Usenet readers interact with the news using a number of
software packages and programs.  This article mentions the important
ones and a little of their history, gives pointers where you can look
for more information and ends with some special notes about "foreign"
and "obsolete" software.  At the very end is a list of sites from which
current versions of the Usenet software may be obtained.

Note that the number of software packages available to run news,
especially on PCs, is increasing.  This article lists only a few of
the many news packages available, and the presence or absence of any
particular software package should not be construed as indicating
anything about its suitability or usefulness.

The material contained in this post is probably not 100% up-to-date.
Many of the software packages described in this posting are undergoing
constant development, and it is not always possible to know when new
releases have been made.  Should you discover that information in this
post has been superseded by a new release, please send mail to the poster
of this article with the corrected information.

While the "official" ftp archive sites for packages are listed, note that
most large archive sites carry news software; please try the one nearest
to you before you use up expensive bandwidth on a trans-continental
network link.  You can check the official site for the current version
number, if you want to make sure you're getting the latest version.  In
general, a good place to get recent versions of the more popular news
transport and reading software by anonymous ftp is
ftp.uu.net:/networking/news/ directory.

History
-------

Usenet came into being in late 1979, shortly after the release of V7
Unix with UUCP.  Two Duke University grad students in North Carolina,
Tom Truscott and Jim Ellis, thought of hooking computers together to
exchange information with the Unix community.  Steve Bellovin, a grad
student at the University of North Carolina, put together the first
version of the news software using shell scripts and installed it on
the first two sites: "unc" and "duke." At the beginning of 1980 the
network consisted of those two sites and "phs" (another machine at
Duke), and was described at the January Usenix conference.  Steve
Bellovin later rewrote the scripts into C programs, but they were never
released beyond "unc" and "duke." Shortly thereafter, Steve Daniel did
another implementation in C for public distribution.  Tom Truscott made
further modifications, and this became the "A" news release.

In 1981 at U. C. Berkeley, grad student Mark Horton and high school
student Matt Glickman rewrote the news software to add functionality
and to cope with the ever increasing volume of news -- "A" News was
intended for only a few articles per group per day.  This rewrite was
the "B" News version.  The first public release was version 2.1 in
1982; the 1.* versions were all beta test.  As the net grew, the news
software was expanded and modified.  The last version maintained and
released primarily by Mark was 2.10.1.

Rick Adams, at the Center for Seismic Studies, took over coordination
of the maintenance and enhancement of the B News software with the
2.10.2 release in 1984.  By this time, the increasing volume of news
was becoming a concern, and the mechanism for moderated groups was
added to the software at 2.10.2.  Moderated groups were inspired by
ARPA mailing lists and experience with other bulletin board systems.
In late 1986, version 2.11 of B News was released, including a number
of changes to support a new naming structure for newsgroups, enhanced
batching and compression, enhanced ihave/sendme control messages, and
other features.

The current release of B News is 2.11, patchlevel 19.  Article format is
specified in RFC 1036 (see below).  B News has been declared "dead" by a
number of people, including Rick Adams, and is unlikely to be upgraded
further; most new UUCP sites are using C News or INN (see next
paragraphs).

In March 1986 a package was released implementing news transmission,
posting, and reading using the Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP)
(as specified in RFC 977).  This protocol allows hosts to exchange
articles via TCP/IP connections rather than using the traditional
uucp.  It also permits users to read and post news (using a modified
news user agent) from machines which cannot or choose not to install
the Usenet news software.  Reading and posting are done using TCP/IP
messages to a server host which does run the Usenet software.  Sites
which have many workstations like the Sun and SGI, and HP products
find this a convenient way to allow workstation users to read news
without having to store articles on each system.  Many of the Usenet
hosts that are also on the Internet exchange news articles using NNTP
because the load impact of NNTP is much lower than uucp (and NNTP
ensures much faster propagation).

NNTP grew out of independent work in 1984-1985 by Brian Kantor at U.  C.
San Diego and Phil Lapsley at U. C. Berkeley.  Primary development was
done at U. C. Berkeley by by Phil Lapsley with help from Erik Fair,
Steven Grady, and Mike Meyer, among others.  The NNTP package (now called
the reference implementation) was distributed on the 4.3BSD release tape
(although that was version 1.2a and out-of-date) and is also available on
many major hosts by anonymous FTP.  The current version is 1.5.12.1.  It
includes NOV support and runs on a wide variety of systems.  It is
available from ftp.academ.com:/pub/nntp1.5/nntp.1.5.12.1.tar.Z.  For
those with access to the World-Wide Web on the Internet, the WWW page
http://www.academ.com/academ/nntp.html contains a description and news
about NNTP.  A different variant, called nntp-t5, implements many of the
extensions provided by INN (most notably News Overview NOV support -- see
below).  It is available from
ftp.uu.net:/networking/news/nntp/nntp-t5.tar.gz.

One new version of news, known as C News, was developed at the University
of Toronto by Geoff Collyer and Henry Spencer.  This version is a rewrite
of the lowest levels of news to increase article processing speed,
decrease article expiration processing and improve the reliability of the
news system through better locking, etc.  The package was released to the
net in the autumn of 1987.  For more information, see the paper "News Need
Not Be Slow," published in The Winter 1987 Usenix Technical Conference
proceedings.  This paper is also available from ftp.cs.toronto.edu in
doc/programming/c-news.*, and is recommended reading for all news software
programmers.  The most recent version of C News is the Sept 1994 "Cleanup
Release."  C News can be obtained by anonymous ftp from its official
archive site, ftp.cs.toronto.edu:pub/c-news/c-news.tar.Z.

Another Usenet system, known as InterNetNews, or INN, was written by Rich
Salz <[email]>.  INN is designed to run on Unix hosts that
have a socket interface.  It is optimized for larger hosts where most
traffic uses NNTP, but it does provide full UUCP support.  INN is very
fast, and since it integrates NNTP many people find it easier to
administer only one package.  The package was publicly released on August
20, 1992.  For more information, see the paper "InterNetNews:  Usenet
Transport for Internet Sites" published in the June 1992 Usenix Technical
Conference Proceedings.  INN can be obtained from many places, including
the 4.4BSD tape; its official archive site is ftp.uu.net in the directory
/networking/news/nntp/inn.  The current version is 1.4sec, last release
22-dec-1993.

In June 1995, David Barr began a series of unoffical releases of INN based
on 1.4sec, integrating various bug-fixes, enhancements and security
patches.  The current release is 1.4unoff3, found in
ftp.math.psu.edu:/pub/INN.  This site is also the home of contributed
software for INN and other news administration tools.

Towards the end of 1992, Geoff Collyer implemented NOV (News Overview): a
database that stores the important headers of all news articles as they
arrive.  This is intended for use by the implementors of news readers to
provide fast article presentation by sorting and "threading" the article
headers.  (Before NOV, newsreaders like trn, tin and nn came with their
own daemons and databases that used a nontrivial amount of system
resources).  NOV is fully supported by C News, INN and NNTP-t5.  Most
modern news readers use NOV to get information for their threading and
article menu presentation; use of NOV by a newsreader is fairly easy,
since NOV comes with sample client-side threading code.

ANU-NEWS is news package written by Geoff Huston of Australia for VMS
systems.  ANU-NEWS is a complete news system that allows reading,
posting, direct replies, moderated newsgroups, etc. in a fashion
closely related to regular news.  The implementation includes the RFC
1036 news propagation algorithms and integrated use of the NNTP
protocols (see below) to support remote news servers, implemented as a
VAX/VMS Decnet object.  An RFC 977 server implemented as a Decnet
object is also included. ANU-NEWS currently includes support for the
following TCP/IP protocols: MultiNet, CMU/TEK, Wollongong WIN/TCP, UCX
(TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS), EXOS, and TCPware.  The ANU-NEWS
interface is similar to standard DEC screen oriented systems.  The
license for the software is free, and there are no restrictions on the
re-distribution.  For more info, contact [email] (Geoff
Huston).  ANU-NEWS is available for FTP from kuhub.cc.ukans.edu.
Contact [email] for more info.

A screen-oriented news client for VMS that works with CMU/tek, EXOS,
MultiNet, UCX, Wollongong and DECnet is also available via ftp from
iraun1.ira.uka.de, info.rz.uni-ulm.de, and ftp.spc.edu (contact Bernd
Onasch <[email]> for details).

Reader NNTP clients for VMS are also available, including VMS/VNEWS
(current release 1.4) and an upcoming reader only version of ANU-NEWS.
VMS/VNEWS is available via anonymous ftp from arizona.edu (contact
[email] for more information) or at any site which archives
vmsnet.source.  Although the current release of ANU-NEWS is usable as
a reader it can be difficult when used with a UNIX server.

FNEWS is a fast news reader, for VAX/VMS and UNIX.  It is basically a
mixture of NEWSRDR and ANU-NEWS, (a bit like 'nn' in how it works) giving
a nice (but different) full-screen interface and fast response to
thousands of groups without heavily loading your local machine.  It works by
caching the news indexes from a UNIX news system (CNEWS or INN), and then
dynamically loading the items when the user wants to read them.  Indexes
are only cached for groups which are actually read, so the load and disk
usage can be very small.  FNEWS Versions are available for VMS, ALPHA-VMS
and UNIX via anonymous ftp from ftp.std.com in /ftp/vendors/emagic/fnews.
Contact [email] for more information.

A port of C News for the Commodore Amiga under AmigaDOS (NOT Unix), is
available.  The port was done by Frank J. Edwards <[email]>,
and available from Larry Rosenman <[email]>.  Also,
Matt Dillon <[email]>, has greatly improved the
UUCP clone for AmigaDOS, currently V1.16D, available for ftp from
ftp.uu.net in /systems/amiga/dillon.  The package also includes a
newsreader very loosely like the real rn.  Dillon also has a "vn" port
provided by Eric Lee Green.  This software is also available on Bix,
and for ftp from wuarchive.wustl.edu (many other Amiga newsreaders are
also available on theis ftp site).

The traditional line-oriented "readnews" interface was followed by several
popular screen-oriented news reading interfaces.  The first of these was
"vnews" and it was written by Kenneth Almquist.  "vnews" provides a
"readnews"-like command interface, but displays articles using direct
screen positioning.  It appears to have been inspired, to some extent, by
the "notes" system (described below).  "vnews" is currently distributed
with the standard 2.11 news source.

A second, more versatile interface, "rn", was developed by Larry Wall (the
author of Perl) and released in 1984.  This interface also uses full-screen
display with direct positioning, but it includes many other useful features
and has been very popular with many regular net readers.  The interface
includes reading, discarding, and/or processing of articles based on
user-definable patterns, and the ability of the user to develop customized
macros for display and keyboard interaction.  "rn" is currently at release
4.4.4.  It is being maintained by Stan Barber <[email]>.  "rn" is not
provided with the standard news software release, but is very widely
available because of its popularity.  The software can be obtained from its
official archive site, ftp.academ.com, using FTP.  A description and some
news about it can be found on the WWW page
http://www.academ.com/academ/rn.html.

Wayne Davison's "trn" is a superset of "rn".  Trn adds the ability to
follow "threads of discussions" in newsgroups; its latest version 3.6 is
based on rn 4.4.  It uses a Reference-line database to allow the user to
take advantage of the "discussion tree" formed by an article and its
replies.  This results in a true reply-ordered reading of the articles,
complete with a small ascii representation of the current article's
position in the discussion tree.  Trn is also capable of "menu-based"
selection of articles, allows one to do useful things to operate on a set
of selected newsgroups.  Trn can be obtained from ftp.uu.net in the
/networking/news/readers/trn directory, and from many other archive
servers world-wide.

xrn is an X11-based interface to NNTP that was written by Rick Spickelmier
and Ellen Sentovich (UC Berkeley) and is currently maintained by Jonathan
Kamens (OpenVision Technologies, Inc.).  The current version is 8.01,
available by anonymous ftp from ftp.x.org in /contrib/applications/xrn.  xrn
supports many features, including sorting by subject, user-settable key
bindings, graceful handling of NNTP server crashes, and many of the features
of rn (including KILL files and key bindings similar to rn).

Another X11-based newsreader is xvnews, written by Dan Currie, currently
maintained by Hans de Graaff <[email]>.  xvnews is an
OPENLook newsreader written primarily for Sun workstations running
OpenWindows, but it will run on any X workstation which has the XView
libraries. It works with NNTP only, and is compatible with rn style
commands. The current version is 2.2.1 and is available from its archive
site ftp.twi.tudelft.nl in the /pub/news directory.

There are two macro packages named "Gnus" (formerly "GNUS") and "Gnews"
that can be used with the GNU Emacs text editor.  These allow reading,
replying, and posting interaction with the news from inside the Emacs text
editor.  In addition, Gnus now has mail-reading capabilities as well.
Client code exists to get the articles using NNTP rather than from a local
disk.  Copies can be found on most archive sites that carry the GNU
archives eg. ftp.cs.titech.ac.jp, archie.au, archive.eu.net,
gatekeeper.dec.com, prep.ai.mit.edu.  More information about the latest
Gnus version (5.1, included with emacs 19.30) can be found at
http://www.ifi.uio.no/~larsi/ding.html

"nn" is yet another reader interface, developed by Kim F. Storm of Texas
Instruments A/S, Denmark, and released in 1989.  nn differs from the
traditional readnews and vnews by presenting a menu of article subject and
sender-name lines, allowing you to preselect articles to read.  nn uses NOV
index files for fast access to article header information.  nn is now
maintained by Peter Wemm <[email]>, and the "offical" ftp
location is the /pub/nn directory on uniwa.uwa.edu.au.  The current version
of nn is 6.4.18.  Non-Australian sites should request the sources from
their nearest backbone site.

Yet another newsreader is the "tin" reader.  It operates with threads, uses
NOV-style index files if available, has different article organization
methods, and is full-screen oriented.  tin works on a local news spool or
over an NNTP connection.  It has been posted to alt.sources; further
information is available from Iain Lea ([email]). The
current release of tin is 1.22.  Tin is based more on the Notes and tass
systems than "rn".  There is an extensive list of features, including
interfaces to batch modes and auto unpacking mechanisms.  The official ftp
site for tin is ftp.germany.eu.net, the Unix version can be found in
/pub/news/newsreader/unix/tin and the OS/2 version in
/pub/news/newsreader/os2/tin

Pine(tm) --a Program for Internet News & Email-- is a tool for reading,
sending, and managing electronic messages.  It was designed specifically
with novice computer users in mind, but can be tailored to accommodate the
needs of "power users" as well.  Pine uses Internet news and mail message
protocols and runs on Unix and PCs.  Pine is copyrighted, but freely
available.  The latest version, including source code, can be found on
the Internet host "ftp.cac.washington.edu" in the file "pine/pine.tar.Z"
(accessible via anonymous FTP).  To try Pine out from the Internet, you
may telnet to "demo.cac.washington.edu" and login as "pinedemo".  There
is also a Pine-specific Internet news group (comp.mail.pine).  For
further information, send e-mail to [email].  Pine was
originally based on Elm, but there is little if any Elm code left.  Pine
is the work of Mike Seibel, Steve Hubert, Mark Crispin, Sheryl Erez,
David Miller and Laurence Lundblade* at the University of Washington
Office of Computing and Communications.  Pine and Pico are trademarks of
the University of Washington.  (* Laurence is now at Virginia Tech.)

An NNTP newsreader for Macintoshs is available called HyperNews.  It is
implemented as a HyperCard stack and depends on MacTCP.  It is available
from many Mac archives, including ftp.apple.com and
sumex-aim.stanford.edu.

A newsreader preferred by many Macintosh users is NewsWatcher by by
[email] (John Norstad).  The current version is 2.0b8 and is
available in ftp.acns.nwu.edu:/pub/newswatcher.

Nuntius is another newsreader for the Mac, written by Peter Speck
<[email]>.  It can be obtained from frederik.ruc.dk, or the Cornell
mirror site ftp.cit.cornell.edu in /pub/mac/comm/test.

There is also an NNTP-based netnews reader for Symbolics Lisp Machines
(under Genera 7) available for anonymous FTP from ucbvax.berkeley.edu
[128.32.133.1] in pub/nntp-clients/lispm written by Ian Connolly
<[email]> and maintained by Richard Welty
<[email]>.  In addition, another NNTP-based news
browser is available running under Genera 7 and Genera 8.  It provides
mouse driven hierarchic browsing of newsgroups and articles, with
support for X11 servers on remote machines.  It is available for
anonymous FTP on flash.bellcore.com [128.96.32.20] in the directory
pub/lispm/news-reader/.  It is written and maintained by Peter
Clitherow <[email]>

A TOPS-20 reader was developed by Dave Edwards of SRI
<[email]>, but current availability is unknown.  An NNTP reader
suite for PC's running MS-DOS and having Excelan boards is available
for ftp from ames.arc.nasa.gov; get the pcrrn files.  There are two
MS-DOS news readers that can be obtained from bcm.tmc.edu in the "nfs"
directory.  They both require PC-NFS (from Sun) to work.  They will
both work under PC/TCP from FTP Software early this year.  Source will
be provided at that time.

"trumpet" is a NNTP based news reader for DOS and Windows. There is Lan
Workplace version which is also available.  It runs over packet drivers,
which can work side-by-side with a Novell Network.  For information on
the Crynwr Packet Driver Collection, send mail to <[email]> or
send a FAX to +1-315-268-9201.  Trumpet offers a very intuitive interface
with most of the basic facilities required in a newsreader (but without
some of the 'bells and whistles found in something like rn).  It has
facilities for using SMTP to forward/reply etc.  The latest version is
1.07 and is shareware available at most main ftp sites.

trumpet       ftp.trumpet.com.au:/trumpet/
wintrumpet    ftp.trumpet.com.au:/wintrump/

"WinVN" is a public domain NNTP newsreader for Microsoft Windows and
Windows NT.  There are versions available for WINSOCK, Novell LWP, and
DEC Pathworks/LanMan.  It supports the XOVER extension, and can display
articles in thread trees.  SMTP and MAPI outgoing mail are supported.
The latest version is 0.99.2.  Sources and binaries are always available
from:

ftp.ksc.nasa.gov:[.pub.win3.winvn].
ripem.msu.edu:/pub/pc/win/winvn/titan.ksc.nasa.gov (mirror).

Details on several newsreaders for systems running "Waffle" may be
found in the FAQ posted to the comp.bbs.waffle newsgroup on a regular
basis.  At least 8 different readers are available, and all can be
obtained via ftp and mailserver from ftp.halcyon.com (look in
/pub/waffle/news).

Details on many other mail and news readers for MSDOS, Windows and OS/2
systems can be found in the FAQ posted to the comp.os.msdos.mail-news.

At least one IBM VM/SP (CMS) version of the Usenet software is
available.  It is known as PSU NetNews, and it is maintained by Linda
Littleton ([email]/psuvm.psu.edu).  Version 2.4 of the
software is available from LISTSERV@PSUVM.  PSU NetNews supports only
3270 terminals, and uses XEDIT as its screen driver.  Most major VM
sites appear to use this package.  NetNews supports locally-stored
news, not NNTP reading.

Since January 1993, a complete NNTP server is available for VM systems.
It provides news reading, posting and feed processing compatible to the
Unix NNTP implementations.  The code is written in IBM's VM Rexx.
It assumes that you already have installed PSU VM NETNEWS.  The VM NNTP
package, written by Kris Van Hees ([email]) who also
takes care of the maintenance.  The current version is 1.0.1 and requires
IBM's FAL TCP/IP and Arty Ecock's RXSOCKET which is available from the
IBMTCP FIELLIST on listserv@pucc.  The VM NNTP package can be obtained
from the NNTP PACKAGE on listserv@blekul11.

There is NNTP support for PSU NetNews for bulk news receipt: NNTPXFER
will poll another site for news, and NNTPRCVR will receive news sent
from a Unix NNTPXMIT process.  Either program sends the news articles
to NetNews for processing.  Contact Andy Hooper ([email]
or qucdn.queensu.ca) for more information, or obtain them from
listserv@qucdn in PUBLIC FILELIST.  These programs are provided with
source, and require IBM's FAL TCP/IP and Pascal.  An NNTPXMIT sender
that works in cooperation with PSU NETNEWS is available from Herman
Van Uytven ([email]).

There is at least one NNTP news-reader for VM using XEDIT as its
screen manager: NNR.  Contact Paul Campbell ([email]) for
information.  The program requires IBM's FAL TCP/IP.  The software is
available for anonymous ftp from ftp.uni-stuttgart.de
in the directory pub/comm/news/beginner/software/nnr/*.

An NNTP news reader is available for TSO/ISPF, called NNMVS. NNMVS is
written by Steve Bacher <[email]> at Draper Laboratory.  It
requires C/370 V1R2 or SAS/C; ISPF V2; and TCP/IP for MVS (either
IBM's "FAL" or SNS).  It is now available via anonymous ftp at
ftp.uni-stuttgart.de under the directory
/pub/comm/news/beginner/software/nnmvs and from ftp.mic.ucla.edu,
directory /pub/mvs/netnews.  The current version is Version 3
Release 2.  There's also an object-code-only distribution for folks
without C compilers, but that's an at-your-own-risk distribution,
and requires the IBM C/370 run-time library.  The source code
distribution can be compiled with either C/370 or SAS/C.

Newsfeed management software
------------------------

Gup, the Group Update Program is a Unix mail-server program that lets a
remote site change their newsgroups subscription on their news feed
without requiring the intervention of the news administrator at the feed
site.  Gup operates with the INN (and likely the C News) batching
mechanisms.  The news administrators at the remote sites simply mail
commands to gup to make changes to their own site's subscription list.
The mail/interface is password protected.  Gup checks the requests for
valid newsgroup names, patterns that have no effect and so on. Gup's
authors are Mark Delany <[email]> and Andrew Herbert
<[email]>.  Its official ftp location is
ftp.mira.net.au:/unix/news/gup-0.4.tar.gz, but since that's not
as well connected as uunet, people are strongly advised to obtain it from
a mirror site. eg.  ftp.uu.net:/networking/news/misc/gup-0.4.tar.gz

dynafeed is a package from Looking Glass Software Limited that maintains a
.newsrc for every remote site and generates the batches for them.  Remote
sites can use uucp or run a program to change their .newsrc dynamically.  It
comes with a program that the remote site can run to monitor readership in
newsgroups and dynamically update the feed list to match reader interest.
The goal of this is to get a feed that sends only exactly the groups
currently being read.  dynafeed can be obtained from ftp.clarinet.com as
sources/dynafeed.tar.Z.

News processing software
------------------------

Software also exists to automatically archive Usenet newsgroups.  The package
rkive, written by Kent Landfield <[email]> can be configured to
archive news automatically based on different headers -- Archive-Name,
Volume-Issue, Chronological, Subject and External-Command to name a few.  It
can be run in batch mode from the command line or from cron.  It can also be
installed in the sys/newsfeeds file to process articles as they are
received.  rkive supports local spool directories as well as NNTP based
access.  rkive is available via ftp from ftp.sterling.com in the directory
/rkive.

Newsclip is a programming language for writing news filtering programs, from
Looking Glass Software Limited, marketed by ClariNet Communications Corp.  It
is C-like, and translates to C, so a C compiler is required.  It has
data-types to represent the kinds of things found in article headers and
bodies.  It can maintain databases of users, message-ids, patterns,
subjects, etc.  These can be used to decide whether to ignore or select an
article.  Newsclip can either operate as a standalone program or as part of
rn. It is free for non-commercial use and is available from ftp.clarinet.com
as sources/nc.tar.Z.  Contact [email] with
a subject line of "newsclip" for more info.

Commercial software
-------------------

DNEWS is a commercial product from NetWin.  DNEWS licenses are provided
free to educational institutions for non profit use. With DNEWS, the news
is stored in a database so as not to overload the raw file system.  DNEWS
supports 'sucking' where only groups which users read are pulled over from
the feeder site. DNEWS is currently known to run on VMS, Windows NT,
Solaris, SunOS, Unixware, HP/UX.  DNEWS binaries are available by
anonymous ftp from ftp.std.com in /ftp/vendors/netwin/dnews
or from
	http://world.std.com/~netwin/
DNEWS sources can be obtained on request, see the file source.txt in the
ftp area for more information.

Special note on "notes" and old versions of news
------------------------------------------------

Many years ago, there was another distributed "news" system called
"notes".  The "notes" software package used a different internal
organization of articles, and a different interchange format than that
of the standard Usenet software.  It was inspired by the notesfiles
available in the PLATO system and was developed independently from the
Usenet news.  Eventually, the "notes" network and Usenet were joined
via gateways doing (sometimes imperfect) protocol translation.
"notes" was written in 1980-1981 by Ray Essick and Rob Kolstad, (then)
grad students at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.  The
first public release of "notes" was at the January 1982 Usenix
conference.  The last release of notes was version 1.7; it is no
longer being actively maintained and the newsgroup for discussing
it (news.software.notes) was removed in April 1995.

"B" news software is currently considered obsolete.  Unix sites
joining the Usenet should install C news or INN to ensure proper
behavior and good performance.  Most old B news software had
compiled-in limits on the number of newsgroups and the number of
articles per newsgroup; the increasing volume of news means that B
news software cannot reliably cope with a moderately-full newsfeed.

Software versions & availability
--------------------------------

You can obtain the version number of your news software by issuing
some form of "v" command to show the current version -- consult the
man page for details.  Current software is obtainable from almost any
major Usenet site as well as the sites noted in the body of the
article, above.

The following sites probably have sources to the current news software
available for anyone needing a copy:

		Site		Contact
		----		-------
		munnari		[email]
		osu-cis		[email]
		philabs		[email]
		pyramid		[email]
		rutgers		[email]
		tektronix	[email]
		watmath		[email]
		uunet		[email]

Sources for most of the news readers and software, including news
2.11, C News, "rn", and "trn" are also available in the
comp.sources.unix archives.  European sites should request the sources
from their nearest backbone site.

The "archie" service can be used to locate ftp archives containing
various news software packages.  There are regular postings in the
comp.answers newsgroup about how to use the "archie" service.

For a relatively low price, you can buy one of many CD-ROM distributions
of freely-redistributable software.  This may be cheaper than a
long-distance phone call.

Standards
---------

News programs communicate with each other according to standard
protocols, some of which are described by RFCs.  An RFC is a Request For
Comment, a de facto standard in the Internet Community.  It is a form of
software standard, published by the Internet Network Information Center
(InterNIC).  Copies of RFCs are often posted to the net and obtainable
from archive sites.  Current news-related RFCs include the following:

    RFC 822 specifies the format of messages; RFC 1036 uses this.
    RFC 977 specifies NNTP, the Network News Transfer Protocol.
    RFC 1036 specifies the format of Usenet articles.
    RFC 1123 amends RFC 822.
    RFC 1153 specifies the digest format some moderated groups use.

See the accompanying posting "How to Get Information about Networks"
for instructions on getting copies of the RFCs.

Henry Spencer has a draft of a successor to RFC1036 that attempts to
document and explain all subsequent enhancements and existing practice as
implemented in the newer news systems.  This draft (often called
son-of-1036) can be obtained by anonymous ftp from ftp.zoo.toronto.edu as
/pub/news.txt.Z (the text version) or /pub/news.ps.Z (a PostScript
version).  Son-of-1036 is intended to be stand-alone reading and does not
require that one also read RFCs 822 or 1123.

Newsgroups
----------

The following newsgroups cover issues discussed in this article, and can
be consulted for recent developments.

bit.listserv.netnws-l	Discussion about NetNews on VM systems.
gnu.emacs.gnews		News reading under GNU Emacs using Weemba's Gnews.
gnu.emacs.gnus		News reading under GNU Emacs using GNUS (in English).
news.software.anu-news	VMS B-news software from Australian National Univ.
news.software.b		Discussion about B-news-compatible software.
news.software.nn	Discussion about the "nn" news reader package.
news.software.readers	General discussion about news reading software.
news.software.nntp	The Network News Transfer Protocol.
comp.os.msdos.mail-news	Administering mail & network news systems under MS-DOS.
comp.protocols.tcp-ip   TCP and IP network protocols.
comp.protocols.tcp-ip.ibmpc     TCP/IP for IBM(-like) personal computers.
alt.usenet.offline-reader	Packages for reading mail/news off-line.

The following periodic postings in the news.software.b and news.answers
newsgroups are useful for people interested in news transport software.

Mark Linimon	"News.software.b: Introduction to news.software.b"
Mark Linimon	"News.software.b Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)"
Mark Linimon	"C News Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)"
Rob Robertson	"FAQ: Overview database / NOV General Information"
Heiko W.Rupp	"INN FAQ Part 1/5: General Information"
Heiko W.Rupp	"INN FAQ Part 2/5: Debugging & Configuring Information"
Heiko W.Rupp	"INN FAQ Part 3/5: Operating Guide & Tutorial"
Heiko W.Rupp	"INN FAQ Part 4/5: Appendix A: Norman's install guide"
Heiko W.Rupp	"INN FAQ Part 5/5: Appendix B: Configurations for certain systems"

The following FAQ is posted periodically to news.software.anu-news
and news.answers.

Bob Sloane	"FAQ: news.software.anu-news"

Users on MS-DOS machines should take a look at the FAQ posted periodically
to comp.os.msdos.mail-news.

Russell Schulz	"comp.os.msdos.mail-news FAQ (01/02) intro"
Russell Schulz	"comp.os.msdos.mail-news FAQ (02/02) software"

The following FAQs posted to alt.usenet.offline-reader and news.answers
are useful for people interested in off-line news readers.

Russell Schulz	"alt.usenet.offline-reader FAQ (01/02) intro"
Russell Schulz	"alt.usenet.offline-reader FAQ (02/02) software"
Mike Northam    "alt.usenet.offline-reader: YAFAQ (Yet Another FAQ)"

Acknowledgements
----------------

The preparation of this article (and Usenet itself!) was greatly
enhanced by the contributions and assistance of the following persons:
Steve Bellovin, Ray Essick, Mark Horton, Brian Kantor, Phil Lapsley,
Bob Page, Rich Salz, Tom Truscott, and Larry Wall.  Thanks, folks.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Usenet Software: History and Sources

text: In Article<[email]>, <[email]> write:


author: Jussi Torhonen

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] says...
and
display
supported.
available

The latest WinVN version is currently 0.99.7 and the official home
site is available from ftp://ftp.ksc.nasa.gov/pub/winvn/

Nowadays there is a lot of more MS Windows based NNTP readers
available. You find most of them from TUCOWS and CWSApps archives.

Jussi


author: Ken Knecht

subject: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
All of a sudden I can't see my own posts, though I think they are visible
to others. What did I do? I made no changes I'm aware of.

No, I didn't kill-file myself - I looked in the plonk file. I also looked
in the set-up and through the doc with no success.

FWIW, I'm using v. 5.04.25 of Xnews.

Suggestions? Please?

TIA

Ken


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
I turned off "hard kill" in the menu and now I see my posts have a score
of -9999. How did that happen? How can I change it back to normal?

Ken

Ken Knecht <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E25E6EB39A7kenkderucom@140.99.23.22:


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
Ken Knecht <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E26404D2836kenkderucom@140.99.23.22:

Check your score file.


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
XS11E <[email]> wrote in news:Xns95E266EDABEBAxs11eyahoocom@
68.6.19.6:

That would be

score.ini

right? No such file in my Xnews directory. Only one in an old Xnews
directory and that file is empty except for two remarks (beginning with %
s). I have never set any scores.

Ken


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
Ken Knecht <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E26F38A5BAFkenkderucom@140.99.23.22:

More info.

Something keeps adding me to my kill file. I'm not doing it! But every
time I reboot Xnews there I am!

Help!

Ken


author: PiotrekR

subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
Ken Knecht pisze tak:

Check your

xnews.ini --> [Misc] --> MaxXPostKill=


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
Ken Knecht <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E26F38A5BAFkenkderucom@140.99.23.22:

Hmmm, I just click on "Special", "Edit Score File", never looked to see
where it is in the Xnews directory?


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
PiotrekR <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E2C59348C6Eviko@Piotrek:

Says

MaxXPostKill=10

What does that mean?

Ken


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
XS11E <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E2791A0D4E6xs11eyahoocom@68.6.19.6:

Says

"No score file found. Create new?"

I responded No

Ken


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
Ken Knecht pisze tak:

ok

Setup --> Misc

"Kill articles crossposted to more than ... groups"

What happens when you put a score entry ?

[.]

Score:: =10003
   Message-ID: kenkderucom


subject: Re: [Xnews] Can't see my own posts

text:
PiotrekR <[email]> wrote in
news:Xns95E4EC14479DCviko@Piotrek:

The problem fixed itself yesterday. I changed nothing. Strange.

Ken


author: Chaos Master

subject: [OT?] Do news servers know how many times a message has been readed?

text:
Hello people.

I don't know if this is off topic.

Do news servers know how many times a certain message has been readed? If the
server doesn't know, is there any way to make a newsreader able to track those
messages [1]? It's possible to see replies to your message via "References: "
header.

[1] Spammers do this by using an image hosted in a server, placed in HTML
mail. When the e-mail is opened, the image is loaded and the server logs the
access to the image. But since Usenet is not made for HTML (thanks, gods),
this does not apply.

I am just curious.

[]s


author: Murray Peterson

subject: Re: [OT?] Do news servers know how many times a message has been readed?

text:
Chaos Master <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Yes, and they know exactly what groups you read as well.  If your ISP
desires, they could track your exact news reading habits on a continuous
basis.

Of course, no single usenet server knows what download requests have been
made to any of the other servers in the world.  To state this in another
way:

Shaw newsservers only know about requests made by Shaw clients.
Giganews servers only know about requests made by Giganews clients.

There is no central news server, so there is no single server that knows
the sum of all the requests.

Not outside of that machine -- that's the only place where the information
is tracked and stored (in my .newsrc file).

Only because that is header information provided by the poster.  If I strip
out the Reference header before posting this message, your reader would not
see this message as a reply.

Not with my email client -- any embedded HTML is never allowed to get near
a browser or HTML parser of any kind.  Most times, I won't even allow my
browser to be redirected to a different domain.

Unless you are stupid enough to read news using OE and leave HTML turned
on.  If so, you get what you ask for, including all those lovely viruses.

I am not sure I know what you are really asking about.  I get the feeling
your question may be more like: "Can a usenet spammer track how many people
download and read a particular posted spam message"?  If that's your real
question, then the answer is no, not in any way.  The best they can do is
put a URL in their spam and see how many suckers click on the link
(assuming that their ISP hasn't removed their account and URL by that
time).


text:
cat /etc/passwd | grep Murray Peterson returns:

[Do servers track how many times a message has been read?]

I understand now. A server knows how many requests, but this info is
restricted only to this server.

Not with mine (Sylpheed) too. It does not show any HTML/images at all, I save
attachments only.

[spammers tracking Usenet messages]

No. I use Gravity.

Exactly what I was asking for, since I had seen the same thing done by
spammers, and this discussion started on a Brazilian news server, when someone
wanted to make sure a certain message was read.

[]s


author: Todd Ogasawara

subject: C-news vs. ISC 2.2 cron

text:
I can't seem to get the C-news newsrun script to run from cron in ISC UNIX
2.2. Has anyone else experienced this problem?

'newsrun' works fine if I fire it either when logged in as news or when I
manually fire it using 'su -c' as root.


author: Conor P. Cahill

subject: Re: C-news vs. ISC 2.2 cron

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Todd Ogasawara) writes:

What is hapening?  just saying you are having problems doesn't give us
much wor work on.  You might also want to specify what version (and patchlevel)
of cnews you are running.

I have cnews running without any problems under 2.2 (I upgraded from 2.0.2
and made no changes to the code since then.

We run it twice an hour from new's crontab without any problems with the
following cron line:

	0,30 * * * *  /usr/lib/newsbin/input/newsrun

If it's not running from cron, but is runs ok from a normal user I would
bet that it is an environment problem (probably ulimit).


author: Henry Spencer

subject: Re: C-news vs. ISC 2.2 cron

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Todd Ogasawara) writes:

It's not unheard-of to have trouble getting shell scripts to run from cron
if cron isn't initializing the environment properly.  You might see if you
can get something trivial like

	#! /bin/sh
	echo hi there | mail todd

to work first; that will at least tell you whether it's cron or some
C-News-specific problem.


author: Art Neilson

subject: Re: C-news vs. ISC 2.2 cron

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Todd Ogasawara) writes:

I'm running ISC 2.2 and newsrun runs just fine via the news crontab I've
set up.  Below is my news user crontab:

0,30 6-23 * * * /usr/lib/newsbin/input/newsrun
0 22,4,10,16 * * * /usr/lib/newsbin/maint/newswatch
59 23 * * * /usr/lib/newsbin/maint/newsdaily
0 2 * * * /usr/lib/newsbin/expire/doexpire

Of course you must set up your cron.allow/deny files correctly in /usr/lib/cron
so news has permission to run cron jobs.  Also, I found Cnews needed the
setnewsids setuid utility in order for things to go execute properly, I believe
this program lives in /usr/lib/news.

-rwsr-xr--   1 root     news       51357 Jun 19 22:47 setnewsids

I can't think of anything else offhand which was particular to ISC in getting
newsrun to fly.  Mail me if I can help further!


author: Greg A. Woods

subject: Re: C-news vs. ISC 2.2 cron

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Henry Spencer) writes:

After you've tried this, if it still doesn't work, carefully
scrutinize the cron log (/usr/lib/cron/log), and check the system
mailbox of the user running the cron job.  SysV cron records errors in
the log, and mails stderr output to the user.


author: Alexander Zinin

subject: Import message to INN

text:
I created a newsgroup(local.forum), copy to folder /usr/local/news/spool/articles/local/forum
messages saved year ago and changed /usr/local/news/db/active(beg & end message numbers). Then I do
"list" all ok, but then I do "group", I get wrong begin and end message numbers and after I can't
get "article" by number, that exist in folder. What I must to do ?

INN from /usr/ports/news/inn-stable
InterNetNews server INN 2.4.1 (20031022 prerelease)
OS - FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE

Sorry for bad english :))


author: Jeffrey M. Vinocur

subject: Re: Import message to INN

text:
In article <bti1p7$1nhs$[email]>,
Alexander Zinin <[email]> wrote:

You don't have overview data generated for those articles.  You
can fix this just for that group using the tdx-util tool.  Try:

  ~news/bin/tdx-util -n local.forum -R ~news/spool/articles/local/forum


subject: Re: Import message to INN

text:
and then makehistory -O -F
thanks

In news:bti9n8$b66$[email] "Jeffrey M. Vinocur" <[email]> wrote:

 JMV> You don't have overview data generated for those articles.  You
 JMV> can fix this just for that group using the tdx-util tool.  Try:

 JMV>   ~news/bin/tdx-util -n local.forum -R
 JMV> ~news/spool/articles/local/forum


author: Russ Allbery

subject: Re: Import message to INN

text:
Alexander Zinin <[email]> writes:

Actually, no, the whole point of tdx-util is that you don't have to use
makehistory.


author: "Steve Young"

subject: Re: NOMINATION - Steve "BowTie" Young for Coward of The Month (*Seconded*)

text:
"Lionel" <[email]> wrote in message news:d3aqe6$q5d$[email]...

A much better choice than taking your word for it?

trap him like you said you were doing.
Why should that person be able to decide/control what I'm doing?
I'd rather work on PUW and get to the root of a solution.

An unfortunate word choice perhaps?

:)x


author: Lionel

text:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:11:54 -0400, in
<[email]>, "Steve Young"
<bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> said:

I think you'll find that most people would believe me over you 'Steve'.

I notice that you've never once publically told 'Orville', 'Organizer'
or any of the other sock-puppets you use to conceal your abuse NOT TO DO
IT ANY MORE. In fact, you've actually encouraged them to attack people.

The scheme is completely unworkable. Nobody will do the programming or
other implementation work for you, because all of us with the neccessary
skills can see that it's unworkable. Worse, even if something remotely
resembling your scheme were to be kludged up, the results would be
nothing like what you think they would be.

No - it's an accurate word choice. The RL harrassment you commit is most
definitely illegal, as is some of your online harrassment.


text:
"Lionel" <[email]> wrote in message news:d3bgse$bm1$[email]...

Lemme guess, cause you have k0oKs on your side?

proof please   cites anyone?

and what would the result of an 'off' switch be?

*ding!* *ding!* *ding!*
we have a *bell* *ringer* here peaking through your denials.


author: Bookman

text:
"Steve Young" <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The Public Usenet White council has determined that "Steve Young"
is not posting within the 'quality guidlines'.  "Steve Young" is directed to
follow his own desires for net-control, and self-censor, or forevermore
be known as a hypocrite who can't play by his own rules.  HTH.

Oh, you meant that the rules were supposed to shut up the people
who annoyed you, hey, Stevie?  That makes you a hypocrite, too.
Not that you can comprehend it.  LOL!

ESL!


author: Art Deco

text:
Steve Young wrote:

Kooks are not allowed to use the word "kook", Kook.  Will they never
learn this simple rule?


author: George William Herbert

subject: Re: Cancelling the SF-lovers vote results...

text:
I disagree with those calling for a cancellation of the sf-reorg and
renaming vote.

	Neither 'side' of the flame wars and actions was willing to admit
that it was committing potentially guideline-violating (at least in spirit)
actions, nor would either consider the other's actions anything but
disqualifying.  Both were wrong.

	Bluntly: everyone blew it.

	What effects will this have had upon the vote's results?

	I would like to suggest that the voters probably were not strongly
influenced by most of the actions.  Point one in support of this is that
most of the votes arrived before most of the actions occurred.  Point two
is that most of the voters that posted comments seemed to be rabidly one-sided
and thus unlikely to change their mind.  Point three is that both sides
probably alienated true neutrals about equally, thus statistically having
little effect on late votes.

	And what if the vote is invalidated?
	One thousand plus (plus lots, apparently) people voted for these
proposals.  If the vote is invalidated, it will be precedent that the
presumably educated and self-determining voting masses are less important
than five or eight flamethrower-toting individuals.

	I am unconvinced that any of the actions actually helped any of
the proposals gain yes-votes.  Thus, at the worst, any group that passed
would likely have passed more enthusiastically in a more reasonable vote.
If the vote results are recounted to discount last-minute votes (potentially
affected by the vote-takers email), then this is true even more strongly.

	As much as this vote was mishandled, it probably is still valid.
I, for one, would like to avoid bringing up as much as possible of it
in the future, as I doubt that any of the principals will change their
opinions or lose net access.  Let it stand as it fell, find someone
neutral to run any cleanup votes, and think _really hard_ about what can
be done to avoid this happening again.  (probably nothing, but I and the
news.groups crowd are I am sure open to ideas 8-)

-george william herbert
[email]


author: Stanley Friesen

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (George William Herbert) writes:

Probably true, put effectively irrelevant at this point.

Unfortunately, the vote has alread been de facto invalidated, whatever
any "official" ruling might say about it (whatever official might mean
in this context).

What I mean is that a considerable number of non-leaf site admins have
stated they will not carry any resulting groups (and will continue to
propagate rec.sf-lovers).  This effectively cancels the vote in and of
itself, no amount of complaining that it is unfair, or inappropriate
will change that.

And splitting up the net into sf-lovers and sf.* camps is hardly conducive
to communication.  So it is better to simply recognize that the vote
isn't working and try again.

Now, if you could privately convince the sys admins that are blocking the
new organization to recant and allow it through, then we might have a vote.
[Of course that assumes you can identify all of the ones that are not
accepting the vote - most of them are probably not posting].


author: David C Lawrence

text:
In <[email]> [email]
(Kent Paul Dolan) writes:

   Whether the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will release the
   results is looking less and less likely, though.

I'll be saying more about this later, but I would like to point out
that I am not by any means an impassable obstruction here (nor even an
obstruction at this point, but just a slowing down point while many
people attempt to decide how users will be best served in this
fiasco).  Even if the charter for news.announce.newgroups did not
stipulate that I should post it there if Kent insisted, there would
still be the course that he could post it to every other group he
wanted.  I appreciate that he has not yet done so.

   He's had them since the wee hours of the 21st,

22nd.  I don't care when you sent them, I didn't get them until the 22nd.

   but he's taking his advice input from Jim Griffith (of which I got
   email CCs), which gives you some idea of how this whole process
   works behind the curtain, and the likely neutrality of the advice
   being given and solicited.

I am taking my input from many sources, and while it is natural that
they will have varying degrees of weight with me, Jim Griffith is far
from a subversive director here.  For one, I have not heard from him
since the two messages he sent (Kent was Cc'ed on the second) on the
day I got the results.  For another, I am giving Kent's writings even
more consideration than I am giving Jim's.  While Jim may not have had
the courtesy to include Kent in his original message, please note that
in no way have I attempted to hide from Kent any part of the process
which is currently occuring.

Mark Moraes is currently conducting a poll of network news
administrators regarding how they would respond to an attempt to carry
out the decisions indicated by the vote.  The results of this poll
will very likely have the most significance regarding my own
suggestions for a course of action.  We will have the results of this
poll on Tuesday, and with the ensuing discussion and decision making,
should have a final recommendation appear on Wednesday night.


author: Shannon D. Appel

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (George William Herbert) writes:

I agree pretty strongly with George here.  If you're going to try and
invalidate a vote which I would guess has had the highest turn-out
of any in USENET history (Kent, confirm please) there's a major problem.
If you're going to tell well over a thousand people that there opinions
mean nothing because of a few loud-mouthed idiots, something is not
correct.  If sys-admins are going to refuse to carry these new newsgroups,
despite the thousands of people who expressed their opinions (that they
wanted the groups or not) they really need to rethink their priorities.

Shannon Appel


author: Dani Zweig

text:
[email] (George William Herbert):

I don't think there could be any truly awful outcomes to the vote:  If
the split failed, we could reinitiate it in six months.  If a subset
of the proposed groups passed, we'd have six months to observe, and decide
whether we wanted to try again to pass some of the failed ones -- or
to *cancel* some of the groups that turned out to be bad ideas.

If there is a justification for cancelling the vote, it is not that one
side or the other acted badly, though people acted badly on many sides.
It is that too many people are unwilling to accept the vote.  That can't
be dismissed as poor sportsmanship only:  Every Usenet vote has 'winners'
and 'losers', but few Usenet votes are challenged.  Too many people
feel that this vote did not do what it was intended to do, which was to
evoke and reflect the will of the net.  Next time we'll do it better.

-----
Dani Zweig
[email]

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
 Are full of passionate intensity." -- W.B. Yeats


author: Lambert Meertens

text:
In article <[email]>
[email] (George William Herbert) writes:

) 	I disagree with those calling for a cancellation of the sf-reorg and
) renaming vote.

[Arguments omitted]

So do I.  Should we have a vote on this ? :-)


author: Kernel Mustered

text:
[email] (David C Lawrence) writes:

Out of interest, how is he obtaining a statistically significant sample?
What steps is he taking to ensure that there is no statistical bias resulting
from the sample of net administrators chosen?

mathew
[ Probably too late now. ]


author: Subrata Sircar

text:
[email] (Shannon D. Appel) writes:

I disagree for two reasons.  First, the practical reason:

With all the controversy this vote has stirred up, a substantial fraction
of news admins have stated that they will not honor the results of the vote,
due to the conduct of the vote taker.  In other words, if we let this stand,
enough admins won't carry it that the propagation of the new groups will be
erratic and uncertain.  You don't know if you'll be able to post to them or
not, because the people you're interested in discussing things with may not
be able to get the group.  Unless we formally agree to annul the results,
we'll have a broken set of groups.  That's much worse than not having them for
six months - ask any news admin or USENET old hand.

Second, the moral reason.  Kent's behavior as vote taker cannot be allowed to
set a precedent for future votes; do the admins of the net REALLY want this
sort of thing to be seen as OK?  If we do not formally annul the results of
the vote, we are admitting that no violations occurred; in other words, that
such conduct is acceptable behavior.  I don't think it is, and I don't ever
want to see another vote run like this.

No, they don't.  Their prime responsibility is to provide news on their
systems to satisy their employers and "customers".  That is generally
best done by following what passes for rules in the USENET anarchy.

Disenfranchising those thousands of votes for six months is terrible; but
it's a lot better than the alternative of broken groups, flame-filled votes
and constant complaints about the whole thing.


author: Kent Paul Dolan

text:
[email] (Shannon D. Appel) writes:

Hm. What George misses, in the part of his article
you did _not_ quote, is that while the attempt to
gain "yes" votes occurred in the last 42 hours of
the vote (and did indeed have no affect whatever in
vote pass/fail status), the first bogus premarked
ballot was posted the first day of the vote, hours
after the CFV was issued, and by the second day was
identifiably causing votes to fail that had been
passing. The moral? Cheat early, cheat often.

Yes, at 1327 valid votes received, the vote exceeds
the previous roughly 1140 vote record by quite a bit.

Whether the moderator of news.announce.newgroups
will release the results is looking less and less
likely, though. He's had them since the wee hours of
the 21st, but he's taking his advice input from Jim
Griffith (of which I got email CCs), which gives you
some idea of how this whole process works behind the
curtain, and the likely neutrality of the advice
being given and solicited.

Kent, the man from xanth.
<[email]> <[email]>


author: Felan shena Thoron'edras

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Shannon D. Appel) writes:

Is a vote valid if the procedures and actions of the vote-taker violate
the spirit of the guidelines?  As is pointed out, if you (meaning the
vote-taker and proponents) want a vote honored, you stick to non-shady
actions and you follow the spirit of the guidelines.  Kent didn't, in
my opinion.  Neither did a few others, and the whole deal turned into
a general flame-fest..

Do I count as a principle?  I wasn't part of the flame-wars, but I do
think I showed up as a major supporter of the split.  If you mean one
of the flame-wars folks, you're probably right.  If you mean the group
I can be included in, well, most might not; I have changed one view at
least...

I don't like the idea of rewriting the guidelines to explicitly forbid
most of what happened, but then most of what happened was flame wars,
so the guidelines couldn't anyway.  Still, we can work on it, and learn
from this vote..

I understand what you're saying, but I do think we need to stick to the
guidelines somewhat - spirit-wise at least.  And I don't think this vote
did, unfortunately.

Leanne Phillips
"Do not meddle with the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick
to anger."  (From JRRTolkien's books; I don't want to hear other versions.
I've heard them all before.)
Words to live by: "Violence is the refuge of the incompetent."
	(Yes, I know it isn't right; it's deliberate.)


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Dani Zweig) writes:

	The will of the net, from all the posted evidence, seems to be to
execute 'while (1) flame' as many times as possible 8-)

	Seriously... with 1300+ votes, the net let its will be heard more
clearly this time than any previous one.  Any news admin considering not
carrying any groups that pass the vote (if it's not cancelled/protested into
oblivion) ought to consider that.
	People's ballots ought to outweigh posted flamage and apparently
innefectual mailings.

-george william herbert
[email]


author: Mark Moraes

text:
[email] (Kernel Mustered) writes:

He isn't.

None.

Dave's statement was inaccurate -- I took a snap poll of the NNTP
admins from a list which includes admins from most/all the sites at
the top of the propagation rankings.  The poll was intended to give
those NNTP admins and [email] an idea of the propagation
we could expect.

The poll was restricted to the NNTP admins because news.groups and
news.admin have degenerated into forums with little interest for most
news admins.  This is probably because of posters who seem unable to
tell the difference between news.admin/news.groups and alt.flame.

	Mark.


author: Vincent Archer

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (George William Herbert) writes:

I have stayed silent for two months now, but now, I'll post my humble
opinion:

1> If the newgroup "god" (aka tale@rpi, whose neutral position I'll trust
   more than any player in this reorg) sends newgroup messages for the
   rec.arts.sf groups, I'll honor them.
2> I DONT WANT tale@rpi to send these newgroup messages!

Sysadmins have already indicated that they wouldn't carry the net.decision
in that case (due to hysterics across the world). If the split is made, then
Usenet would break in three parts:
	* Sites carrying only rec.arts.sf-lovers
	* Sites carrying only rec.arts.sf.*
	* Sites carrying both hierarchies!
(And frmug being in the third part). This would split the SF net.audience
in two almost-disjoint segments. Please DO NOT DO THIS!

(For the record, I voted FOR the split - and abstained on drwho/startrek -
 and fully intend to do so again six months from now)


author: Kevin Darcy

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (George William Herbert) writes:

Nah...

void
will_of_net(intellect)
short intellect;
{
	while (1) {
		bitch();
		moan();
		snipe();
		if (feel_like_recursion)
			will_of_net(0);
	}
}

/*
lint:
reality.c(8): warning: argument intellect unused in function will_of_net
*/

								- Kevin


author: Steven King

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Mark Moraes) writes:

   The Secret Cabal of Backbone Sites (tm) once again rears its ugly
 head.  Imminent Death of the Net As We Know It. Film at 11.


author: The Grand Wombat

subject: Re: [usenet pedophiles] Let's recap, shall we?

text:
After 151 days of wandering <[email]>,
	"Jeffery J. Leader" <[email]> had a vision and wrote:
Or expect other people to make the net over to your liking.

You've just make part of my point for me - it's not broken is it?

(...)

I haven't followed appd that closely.  I did follow aad - it was the bot
work that escalated that one - and the group did survive.

For one thing, that was a group that had its own interal problems going
on - not all of the disruption was external.

Also - the group survived.

No.  You can't use the trolls as whipping boys for every issue.  This was
a case of people not willing to stand up in public.

I never said that invasions don't happen - I said they're extremely hard to
distinguish from other behavior and the attempt will do more harm than good.

It's only false because a police state won't happen on Usenet anyway. I
don't think it's possible to police every .alt newsgroup.  No one has time.

As far as I'm concerned, those who participate in the flamewar, want it.

And mod.* could be kept seperated.


author: Jeffery J. Leader

text:
On 11 Oct 2000 20:49:48 GMT, The Grand Wombat <[email]>
wrote:

Beats me. How might we go about finding out, especially given the
differing definitions--which on the invaders side seems to be that no
invasions ever happen, and when they do they're well-deserved and
unsuccessful?

The problem is serious; the a.p.d.d example suffices to show that.
Your question was to prevalence--how wide-spread it is--and I am
making no claims that it happens with great frequency, only that it's
a shame every time it does happen.

It happens, and in my mind that's too often. I would suggest that you
are in a better position than I to determine the rate...


text:
After 151 days of wandering <[email]>,
	"Jeffery J. Leader" <[email]> had a vision and wrote:
It's your responsibility to make a case here, not mine.

If it doesn't happen very often, are radical changes to the network necessary?

Perhaps - in my opinion, the rate is not high.


author: Aratzio

subject: Re: Attention, help needed with soc.men

text:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:30:00 -0700, Bob Officer
<bobofficers@127.0.0.7> got double secret probation because:

Kenny does not do proof, Bob. Kenny only does redefinition.


author: krp

subject: Re: Attention, help needed with soc.men

text:
"Aratzio" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

    Like I said "batshit."   Who OWNS who here little mousie?


subject: Re: Attention, help needed with soc.men

text:
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:06:13 GMT, " krp" <[email]>
transparently proposed:

Probably the one not running from his own words, kenny kakes.
:><meltdown ignored>
:
:So in Kenny Kakes world, calmly explaining facts become a meltdown:
::Kenny Kakes, if the admins of a server receive a request from a user
::for a valid news group they will generally add it at some point. ISP
::servers are more problematic than NSP servers. But I have it on 4 news
::servers now and can post there if I wanted.
:
:So go ahead there Kenny Kakes, explain how my being able to access
:soc.men.moderated on 4 servers could ever be construed as a *meltdown*


author: Big-8 CEO

subject: Re: Big 8 Board Members vs. Typical Moderator

text:
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:08:40 -0000, Francine Nixon <[email]> wrote in <[email]>:

Me, neither.

It is true that power 9 would resign the nominating:

1 yes vote
0 no votes

All others return a ballot marked "replace" or do not
return a ballot.

The objective would defeat because the water is sneaked
by abandoning only Yes/No votes under operation 9.  The "abandonment"
in disagreement 9 is not a siege of the oil but a probability
of the Yes/No ballots.  1 yes against 0 no votes is a
"fascism" of the Yes/No ballots (it's 100% of them).

Cathy


author: J. B. Moreno

subject: Re: Reorganization of the news.software.* hierarchy (Was: One Fourth

text:
John Stanley <[email]> wrote:

Maybe because the newsreader allows you to see a tree view and your mail
client doesn't, maybe because it allows scoring.  Lots of different
reasons.


author: jc

subject: Re: Traffic stats: news.admin.moderation

text:
In article <9e81e6$ia9$[email]>, [email] (David
Kinny) wrote:

Thats about 3 articles per day.

How impressive.

Looks like some SERIOUS improvement on that group.

It ised to be probably 5 times that much.

Discussions?

Ha ha ha ha ha.

There are virtually no discussions on that hole.

Yes, where can I find this and this is about
the only discussion left. Not much of it is even
followed up upon.

What is the average number of articles per given
thread of discussions?

About 2, if you are lucky?

You know what it means?

Well, it means YOU killed it.
You killed it ALL.

You yourself don't even participate on that group.
Nothing to even mention about.

Instead, you go to comp.ai.philosophy group,
which you, poisonous snake and a PATHOLOGICAL
liar and fabricator, tried to discredit in
your own posts, telling that "anything provocative
goes to comp.ai.alife".

Well, then why did YOU participate on comp.ai.philosophy,
that you yourself condemned?

Did YOU follow your own advice and go to comp.ai.alife
to present your "provocative", revolutionary and
ground shaking ideas?

Uhu.

Depends on how you twist what.

You tried to create some "discussions" with the same
people as you are, who were interested in creating
the "moderated" version of the universe in order...

Guess.

In order to self promote.
In order to put references in their own "research",
which is not a research of ANY kind, but a
commercial enterprise, selling delusions to fat
customers, calling it "advanced AI".

You know who I am talking about, don't you?

ALL the time YOU, personally, was trying to make
that group like something active, it was but
pathetic.

You could not make it work.
You have not a single idea of ANY interest to AI.
You are a professional careerist, interested in
capitalizing on the latest hype, such as the
"agent systems" today.

But your own deep shit "research" ain't worth
a paper it is written on.

It has been shreeded to dust with the post
of Bloxy's that you censored, as you yourself
admitted ON A PUBLIC RECORD, mind you.

Now, to censor the critical analysis of your
own work is what?

Well, it is the MOST scientificaly dishonest
thing to do.

No matter what that analysis says, you MUST
publish it.

And you censored it because of what?

Well, you did not like a single expression,

"Pussy in the sky with diamonds"?

THAT is the true reason?

Well, but that is EXACTLY what you have in your
deep shit "research", which is NOTHING but PURE
delusion.

In your so called research, you failed to prove
that your "advanced methods", even in principle,
are anything better than even the most primitive
idea in AI, such as the expert systems.

Your system, at least the way you presented it,
is GUARANTEED to dead lock or become inconsistent,
and you can not even comprehend why, even though
that critical analisis told you EXACTLY why?

There is basically not a single original or even
valid idea in your whole paper. It was all a ripoff
of someone else's ideas.

ALL lies and NOTHING but the lies.

That group is as dead, as it EVER gets.
It is such an insult to AI, that many simply
stopped posting to it as a matter of principle
as Bloxy's posted some material in comp.ai.philosophy,
that made it ABANDONLY clear what you did to the
very root of entire hierarchy, bragging that not
only you censor that dead comp.ai, but, as a side
effect, you censor pretty much the ENTIRE hierarchy.

Because that is how this one of the most perverted
principles of "moderation" work in practice.

To summarize:

1) You are an arrogant censor,

2) A pathological liar, proven by the record and your
own words.

3) An intolerant blood boiling idiot,
as you failed to comprehend the consequences
of your aggegated lies, hoping it will, somehow,
magically, dissapear.

4) A consiprator, conducting campaigns of lies and
deceipt behind the scene, calling it "public
consensus".

5) A pervert, perverting the issues of fact to the
point of obscene,

6) A fasist, publically acknoledging the superiority
of your own nationality over others and creating
black lists and white lists as you yourself admitted
in your own "guidelines".

7) A coward, having to guts to look at things
as they are, hiding behind the sword of "moderation".

8) A GROSS abuser of EVERY SINGLE principle on usenet,
going as far, you poisonous snake, as to trying to
publish the personal information of your "opponents",
in ANY conceivable permutation, who spend quite some
time, digging through the piles of usenet archives
and went as far back, as 5 years, trying to find
ANY kind of dirt on your 'opposition'.
And, after being unable to find ANYTHING,
trying to at least post as much personal information,
as you had.

9) You are the representative of those very people,
who are trying to hold back ANY advancements in
AI field because they feel threatened by certain
ideas, indicating the entire field is but mere
system of propagation of delusion.

To this day, there had been not even a shread
of evidence of intelligence in any of your gadgets.
Not even a TRACE of intelligece.

Because you are in a dead end, missing the CORE
aspects of intelligence in your so called models.
Not even that, but you are not even interested
in looking in certain directions, because of your
vested interest in the current system of delusion.

You know all too well, that, once these new
developments begin, you will not be able to
keep up with it because of your biorobotic
conditioning.

It takes a tremendous intelligence and courage
to look into some of those issues, especially
the emotional domain, the concepts of
"impetus to be", the multi-dimensionality
of existence and inherent invalidity of ligic,
of invalidity of your current approaches of
considering ONLY the mental and "logical"
aspects of intelligence.

Things like that.

And this is just a TIP of the iceberg,
you see.


author: Doktor DynaSoar

subject: Re: Diddle Die Die (was: Re: lets let this subject die!)

text:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:18:37 -0700, Phoenix <[email]>
wrote:

} In article <[email]>, Doktor DynaSoar <[email]> wrote:
}
} > On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:40:47 GMT, [email] (nukleus)
} > wrote:
} >
} > } WE DON'T NEED YOUR STINKING VOTE SCAM.
}
} On that you are Wrong, my little fine friend.  The Kook Awards are the magna nirvana
} of Usenet enfranchisement.  Unless you get Kook of the Month, that is.

Somehow he never did.

This is the present incarnation of Bloxy's, Freedumb Kook poster
child. We all most got him domesticated to alt.slack, but he just
couldn't stay on his ritalin.

Couldn't fit in on alt.slack: that's a damn sad statement.

} > No, but it's so much fun to watch you twitch when they're counted.
}
} SHHH!!  SSSHHHHH!!!!!!
}
} > } First of all, it isn't really a vote
} > } because the result of that vote in a democratic system
} > } become the law.
}
} Oh wait; he's NOT talking about the Kook Awards?

No, he's ranting back at the zillionth autoposting of the FAQ on
newgrouping or some such. Seems to me there was someone else who had a
hard time grasping the fact that a bot was posting something, and not
David Lawrence.

} Never Mind.  :-}
}
} > For the Federal Register:
} >
} > BE IT RESOLVED: My family has decided to have dinner at El Caribe,
} > Chapel St., New Haven CT next Friday, by a vote of three to nothing.
} > Failure to do so could result in my dumping a whole cartonful of
} > miniature suckazoids into your pants and counting them with a cattle
} > prod. That's just how they VOTE,
} > for their miniature suckazoid LAWS,
} > So they can all be FREE,
} > to roam their BIG MUDDY RANCH,
} > like a bunch of ANTELOPE,
} > running around in OREGON,
} > where I could hunt them down and BAG ONE.
}
} Cripes, we're really missing the boat on how to do up democracy well in AUK,
} aren't we?  And here I thought letting the masses run the elections was some
} pretty high adventure...

Don't take it personal. You're comparing against thought processes
that could only be improved by drugs. Of any kind.

} > Now would you please puff up into a giant balloon and expel large
} > amounts of hot air with a loud screeching noise? I've missed you.
} >
} > And your skirt is on backwards.
}
} That's not good for anybody.

OK, so it's called a "sari".


author: Phil Oliver

subject: Re: Another spammer threatens to sue

text:
On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:44:09 GMT, [email] (Jim) wrote:

<porn UCE>

Is it illegal to send a non-obscene porn ads to a child?  In other
words, one that just says "Go to http://www.hotbabes.com for the
hottest girls on the net!"  Network TV shows tons of phone sex ads
after 10 or 12pm when presumably some people under the age of 18 are
still watching, but they're not violating any laws.

-Phil Oliver

-----
"I want you to be fully aware of your role in Usenet. It goes like
this: Steve Case is the organ grinder, playing a song called "America
Online". You are the little monkey in a bright red hat hopping up and
down and acting silly for our amusement." - Dave Asselin, in
<5sf99l$[email]>


author: Dan Trottier

subject: how to minimize overhead

text:
Please respond via email to [email] and I'll summarize
responses.

Here's the issues.

  1. Large numbers of articles end up in junk because we don't create
     every alt group in existance. I want to stop cnews from creating
     a .overview file in the junk directory. (and control for that matter)

  2. We limit the hierarchies that we accept by only listing the acceptable
     hierarchies in the sys file. Unfortunately cross posted articles will
     force cnews to create a directory structure in /var/spool/news for the
     links for those unwanted articles. Cnews will also happily spend CPU
     time creating .overview files in these unwanted directories. How do I
     effectively stop Cnews from doing this?

Basically I think I want Cnews to ignore all articles that are not in a
hierarchy that I have listed in the ME: entry in the sys file. This means
not creating an entry in active, not putting the article into junk, and
not building a directory hierarchy in /var/spool/news. This would prevent
Cnews from spending time processing articles that are of no interest to
us. Yes I realize this would prevent any of our downstream sites from
getting articles that we don't accept.

Any ideas?

dan
Dan Trottier                                       [email]
Dept of Computer Science & Systems                ...!uunet.ca!lsuc!maccs!dan
McMaster University                                     (905) 525-9140 x23444


author: Paul Tomblin

subject: Re: how to minimize overhead

text:
In a previous article, [email] (Dan Trottier) said:

How about setting your junk directory to 'x' so that nothing gets put in junk?

This is not true.  If the newsgroup is not in active, and it's not in sys,
then it will get dropped on the floor.


subject: Re: how to minimize overhead

text:
In article <[email]>,
Paul Tomblin <[email]> wrote:

Yeah but what about those cases where I've missed a valid newgroup message
but one of my downstream sites didn't. I might still want articles that are
in accepted hierarchies to be placed in junk if the group is not in my active
file. This would allow the article to propagate downstream.

Yes but newgroup control messages for say eunet.group will be honoured even
if I don't have eunet listed in the ME: entry in the sys file. All I know is
that I have a restrictive ME: entry and I still get these groups being added
to my active file and /var/spool/news directory. I just upgraded to the latest
cnews software so perhaps the behaviour has changed from the older version.

I suppose I can use the new controlperm file of cnews to make sure only the
hierarchies I want will actually get created. This would solve the problem I
think.

Thanks...	dan
Dan Trottier                                       [email]
Dept of Computer Science & Systems                ...!uunet.ca!lsuc!maccs!dan
McMaster University                                     (905) 525-9140 x23444


subject: Re: how to minimize overhead

text:
In a previous article, [email] (Dan Trottier) said:

Not if you have !eunet in your ME: entry.

That's what I'd do.  Set my controlperm to:

comp,sci,misc,rec,soc,talk      [email]       n       y
comp,sci,misc,rec,soc,talk      [email]       r       n
comp,sci,misc,rec,soc,talk      any                     nr      nq
bit                             [email]        n       y
bit                             [email]        r       n
bit                             any                     nr      nq
all                             any                     nr      nq


author: Accessible Archives, Inc.

subject: American History CD-ROM

text:
Accessible Archives publishes the most important newspapers and primary
source materials of American history in full text searchable CD-ROM format
for researchers, historians and students of Social Studies.

Come visit us at our web site at http://www.accessible.com


author: Russ Allbery

subject: Re: Usenet: Predictions for the New Millennium?

text:
In news.groups, Anthony Mumm <[email]> writes:

So don't carry binaries.  The resources required to carry a text-only feed
are negligible; most current servers are more self-maintaining than any
other service I've had to run, requiring only a fraction of one person's
time unless you have a particularly large user base (and even then,
without binaries, I'd question how much it would really take), and the
bandwidth is miniscule compared to most things these days.  If people- and
resource-starved universities can manage to keep running news servers,
it's really not that bad.


author: Jan Houtsma (remove this

subject: [Xnews] How to show 1st unread article in thread

text:
Hello,

When i open a newsgroup all threads are collapsed. When i open one thread
the bar goes to the first unread message in that thread, however it doesn't
immediatelly show it in the preview pane untill i click on that message. Is
it possible to automatically show the first unread message when i open the
thread (without the need to explicitelly click on it)?

Thanks,
Jan

(Xnews version: 06.08.25)


author: MartinS

subject: Re: [Xnews] How to show 1st unread article in thread

text:
Jan Houtsma <jan(remove)@(this)houtsma.net> wrote:

Press '/'