subject: Hedgehog FAQ [6/7] - Advanced Topics in Hedgehoggery

text:
Archive-name: hedgehog-faq/part6
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Keywords: faq pet hedgehogs

Last-modified: 23 August 2006
Version: 3.89

HEDGEHOG FAQ (part 6 of 7) -- ADVANCED TOPICS IN HEDGEHOGGERY
Compiled and edited by Brian MacNamara ([email])
Additions, corrections, and suggestions for this file are welcomed.

This document is copyright 2006 by Brian MacNamara.  See section [0.6]
for authorship information and redistribution rights.  In short, you
can give it away, but you can't charge for it.

The basic Hedgehog FAQ has seven parts, all of which should be available
from wherever you obtained this one.  A complete table of contents for
all seven parts is given below.

Please note:  While my knowledge of hedgehogs has grown (far beyond my
wildest expectations when I began the FAQ), my knowledge is still quite
limited, especially in areas of health care.  I did not write, or verify,
all the information in this FAQ.  I have done my best to include only
accurate and useful information, but I cannot guarantee the correctness
of what is contained in this FAQ, regardless of the source, or even that
it will not be harmful to you or your hedgehog in some way.  For advice
from an expert, I recommend you consult the books listed in part 2 [2.1],
or, especially in the case of a suspected medical problem, a veterinarian
who is familiar with hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: CONTENTS OF THIS FILE

10. *** Breeding, babies, and advanced issues ***

   <10.1> Breeding
   <10.2> General care for babies
   <10.3> Hand feeding baby hedgehogs
   <10.4> Colours, types, and species

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

10. *** Breeding, babies, and advanced issues ***

------------------------------

Subject: <10.1> Breeding

Breeding hedgehogs can be both the most rewarding, and the most
heart-wrenching of endeavors.  Few activities can come close to matching the
wonders and pleasures of having babies, but at the same time the dangers
involved, and problems that can arise are very great.

I'm not going to try and cover all the basics of animal husbandry, here --
that's a topic better left to many books on the subject.  I'm only going to
address hedgehog issues.  Besides, if you don't know the basics of husbandry
and breeding, you should not be considering it -- at least not yet.

Baby hedgehogs are nothing short of addictively cute.  If you think an adult
can steal your heart, beware that a mother being followed by a litter of
adorable little hoglets is many levels of magnitude cuter.  The reason for
this warning is that it can be very easy to fall into the trap of breeding
just to enjoy the babies.  There is an immense responsibility that goes with
breeding, and it should not be undertaken lightly -- these are living,
feeling animals, and that thought must always be at the forefront of your
mind.

If you are going to breed, make very very sure of the following, first:

    (1) That you are willing to risk losing the mother, due to
    complications!

    (2) That you can find good, caring homes for ALL the babies.  This can
    certainly include you, but remember, you may need as many as 8 new
    cages or enclosures to keep the results of one litter!

    (3) If there are complications with the birth, or problems with the
    babies, it might entail some not inconsiderable veterinary bills.

    (4) If mom rejects the babies, you might have to take care of them (a
    very considerable effort), or have them put to sleep.

Okay, you've considered the points, above, and you want to breed your
hedgehog(s).  The following will cover various points of breeding.  For
actual caring for the babies (with or without mom), please see sections
[10.2] and [10.3].

    [Credit for much of what follows is largely thanks to various breeder
    friends that I've met over the past few years, and some of my own,
    minor experiences.  I hope you will forgive me for not listing you by
    name, as the points are `mostly' a blend of all your wisdom! -Ed.]

I would strongly recommend that you seek out an experienced hedgehog breeder
and spend some time talking with him/her.  I don't have the experience or the
space to cover all the information that you really should know.  Also, having
someone you can turn to with questions will prove more than invaluable.

First, a few guidelines for deciding who, of prickly nature, to put together
for the romantic event.  To breed hedgehogs, obviously, the minimum you need
is a male and a female, but there are many other points to consider.
Breeding of ill tempered hedgehogs is not a good idea, breeding of related
hedgehogs can also be a bad idea.  Choose the hedgehogs to be bred with some
care.  This can be for colour, temperament, or other values, but don't be
indiscriminant.

Females should not be bred before at least 5 months of age, as they have not
finished growing and maturing themselves.  Once bred, the hormonal changes
will basically stop further maturation, and the drain on their metabolisms
caused by having babies while still trying to grow themselves, can have
permanent adverse affects on their health.

Males, too, should not be bred before about 4-5 months, although the side
effects are not as problematic for them.  The biggest problem is that they
just may not be up to the task, at least as well as they should be.

Also, don't breed a female for the first time, if she is beyond 1.5 years
old.  If you do, there is a very good chance that the bones in her pelvic
area will have fused, such that she will not be able to have the babies.  If
you are not sure how old she is, but suspect she may be beyond 1.5, don't
risk it!

There is also a point at about 3.5 years of age, when many females become
menopausal.  Breeders will often note that litter sizes may taper off as this
age is approached.

Finally, after each litter, it is important to give your female a break to
recover from the effort.  I would not recommend any more than 3 litters per
year.  Beyond that is going to place an unnecessary drain on the female, and
affect her health (and her ability to produce and care for ongoing litters).
More than this number of litters per year really suggests that you are not
breeding hedgehogs, but trying to run a production line.

Breeding hedgehogs is not difficult, but it does come with a wide variety of
problems.  Probably most notable is that mother hedgehogs will tend to eat
the babies if disturbed at all for a few days prior to, and for up to about
10 days after the birth.  This can be heartbreaking and very frustrating to
would be breeders.

By our (human) standards, this sort of thing is unthinkable, and very hard to
accept.  Before you think too badly of hedgehogs for this, take a look at
their natural environment.  In the wild, any kind of disturbance is all but
certainly a predator that WILL eat the babies (mom can and will try to defend
them, but in a burrow, there's only so much she can hope to do).  Because
finding enough food and energy to develop the babies is a very difficult
thing in the rather harsh conditions in which our little friends are native,
mother hedgehogs cannot afford to lose all of that.  In the end, it's a
matter of survival to ``reabsorb'' the babies, in this way, then to lose all
of that to a passing predator.  If all are lost, try again in 3 months.  If
losing litters continues to happen, it might be that the female is just not
cut out to be a mom, and it would be better not to breed her.

So, for the actual amourous encounter, what is needed?  Actually, not that
much.  Simply put the two loverhogs together, sit back, and watch the fun.
Male hedgehogs know what to do (females do as well, but will often play hard
to get).  Males will usually squeak very loudly and plaintively when they
encounter a female -- and the actual courtship antics are usually VERY
entertaining.

There are opinions both ways on whose cage (hers or his) to use, but most
breeders seem to prefer to use the male's cage, under the assumption that the
female will be more receptive, and the male will feel less out of place and
more inclined to do his `duty.'  It is wise to remove as many items from the
cage as is reasonable, while they are together, such as wheels, extra dens,
and items that make good hiding places for a female who wants to defend her
honour.  Even so, you can pretty much count on the entire cage being severely
`redecorated' frequently and often!

Hedgehogs DO have a `heat,' or estrus cycle, and are not entirely induced
ovulators, as had been previously thought.  The cycle is typically about 9
days on, followed by 7 days off, but is not absolute.

In order to catch the cycle, many breeders will put the male and female
together for about 4-5 days, separate them for 4 days, then put them back
together for another 4-5 days.  Others breeders have suggested using a single
10-day period, while others still will use only a single 3-day get together,
observing the female to see if she is responsive.  Experience and trial and
error will likely be your best guides here.  If you have spoken to a breeder
with experience, try the schedule that they use, or one of the schedules
mentioned here.  In most cases, the pair will get along quite well, but do
watch out as sometimes fights will occur.

Once the romance has passed, it is now time to separate the pair.  Now that
mating is over, the father to be, can drop out of the picture, as he plays no
further role in what follows.  Keeping the male in with the female when the
babies arrive is virtually guaranteed to have them both eat the babies.

Is your female pregnant?  Well, this is another place that I can only offer
theory.  Personally, I have gotten it wrong (both ways) far more often than
right!  As you might guess, it can be quite difficult to tell if a hedgehog
is pregnant, but there are some clues to look for.  Probably one of the best
methods is to weigh her every few days, and watch for a weight gain.
Obviously, this goes part and parcel with an increase in appetite.  Next, if
you are very careful, and gentle, you can palpate her abdomen, and you `may'
be able to feel the babies as she gets closer to the birthing date.
Achieving good results with this is very difficult, even for experienced
breeders, so don't be dismayed if you can't tell anything from it.  Another
sign to watch out for is that her teats or nipples (which run in two rows
along the sides of her tummy, will become more enlarged, and more obvious.

As time gets closer to the birth, typically within about the last week, there
are a few more signs.  One of these to look for is the odour from her urine
often becomes noticably stronger.  She may also exhibit signs of `nesting'
where she may make piles of bedding material, or even block up her den
entrance.  She will also likely lose appetite in the day or so prior to the
babies being born.

In spite of these signs, it's easy to be wrong in thinking she may be
pregnant when she is not, or that she is not pregnant when she is.  Trust me!
This is one place I have AMPLE personal experience to speak from!  Because of
this, I strongly recommend that you always assume that she IS pregnant until
WELL past her last possible due date.

Speaking of the due date, the gestation period for hedgehogs is approximately
35 days.  I have heard of births happening from about 33 days through to
about 42, so the 35 is not absolute.  Most will be within the 34-37 day
range, however.

This generally brings us to the end of the actual breeding topic.  I will add
a few further comments, here, as they relate to the mother, and health
issues, but I would direct you to section [10.2] on general care for the
babies which really takes up where this description leaves off.

After the birth, mom's appetite will likely skyrocket.  Give her all the
high-quality food she wants.  This is not a time for diets, as she is trying
to produce enough milk for her hungry hoglets.  She will also go through a
lot more fresh water than normal.  Just be careful about disturbances as you
go into her cage to feed or water her.  If mom appears overly exhausted, or
wobbly, extra vitamins or supplements, such as KMR (Kitten Milk Replacement)
may help.  Also treats (not too much) of cottage cheese or sour cream may
help keep her calcium levels up, as she produces large quantities of hedgehog
milk.

The good news is that there really isn't much for you to do -- it's largely a
case of mom knows best.

Following the birth, keep an eye on the mother for possible complications.
If mom either loses the babies (not that unusual) or seems very inactive,
possibly lying out of her den, and/or not eating, it may be that she has
suffered a problem during birth, or that one or more babies are still caught
inside her.  If you think this might be the case, get her to a veterinarian,
quickly -- especially if she lost her babies, and is acting like this.  There
is much a vet can do to help in a situation like this, but it is imperitive
that you get her there quickly.  The longer the problem exists, the greater
the likelihood that you will lose the mother in addition to the babies.

------------------------------

Subject: <10.2> General care for babies

As the due date approaches, mom will often stop eating the day before, and
will also often go into nesting mode, and may go as far as to wall up her den
against access.  It is very important that you do not disturb her for a
couple of days before she is due, and for several days after the babies
arrive.  Doing so will often result in the babies being eaten [10.1].

A couple of days before you expect that she is due, it is a good idea to give
her cage a thorough cleaning (without stressing her too much), as you will
not be able to, again, for several days.

The babies will `usually' arrive during the night, and may be announced by a
slight scream or squeak, although I've never heard this, myself.  You will
probably be able to hear the babies squeak from the nest, after they have
been born.

Here are some guidelines on dealing with new hoglets.  In general, the two
main things are to avoid disturbing them (and mom) and that mother knows
best.

As a reminder, the gestation period is approximately 35 days.

You should avoid disturbing a pregnant female or new mother for about 5 days
before and 5-10 days after the birth.  During this time, be careful and quiet
during feeding and cleanup.

The babies will usually announce their presence with squeaks.  When you hear
this -- it's time to go into tiptoe mode.  The babies can be born over a
period of several hours, and maintaining absolute quiet during this time is
important.

Mom should have a safe, secure-feeling den to have the babies in.  This will
help her feel safe and relaxed.

For the first 5-10 days, don't peek!  And I mean don't peek!!!  After this
time, depending on how mom reacts, you can start handling the babies.  If you
do want to check on the babies, do it when mom is out eating, or better yet,
lure her out with a treat, and remove her from the cage for a romp while you
check on the babies.  But do wait until the babies are at least 3-5 days old
before doing this.  Take your cues from mom.  If she gets hostile, vocal, or
visibly upset, by your presence, don't push it.  Some mothers are very secure
and don't mind leaving the babies alone for a few minutes, while others get
frantic when separated.

Make sure that mom has as much food as she wants.  She will eat a LOT more
than usual at this time.  You might even want to supplement her diet with
some cottage cheese, sour cream, or the like, to help boost her calcium
input.  This can be especially important for very young (e.g., accidental)
mothers, who are still growing themselves, and who may end up drawing on
their own calcium reserves, that they need for bones and teeth, to produce
enough milk.

If mom does not seem to be eating, put her food dish near the doorway to her
nest box or tube -- she may be reluctant to leave the babies.

Once the babies are born, you might want to pile up the wood shavings under
the end of the tube or nest box where the doorway is, to prevent any babies
from rolling out by mistake.  Generally this is not a problem, but if you
find a baby outside the nest, you might want to consider doing this.

If you see a baby out of the nest and away from the rest (some mothers will
take their babies out of the nest, but will keep them together -- this is
normal and depends on the mother), you can put it back with the others by
using a small spoon.  Remember not to touch the baby, or mom is liable to
reject it.

If mom seems to be rejecting a baby, keep trying to put it back with the
others (using the spoon method).  If the practise continues, and the baby
appears not to be getting any mother's milk, you may want to consider hand
feeding the rejected baby [10.3].

Babies will begin to venture from the nest when 2-3 weeks old about the same
time they start sampling mom's food.

Babies are weaned at 4-6 weeks.  They start to eat solid food around the 3rd
week.  If the food you are using is quite hard, you can offer some that has
been dampened to make it softer to help get the babies started.

Babies raised in a cage with a litter box will usually learn to use the
litter box (especially if mom uses it).  If mom doesn't use a litter box, you
might need to do a little coaxing (scooping up some of the droppings and
adding them to the litter box).

Remember to separate the babies by sex [10.2] after they are weaned so you
don't accidently start on yet another generation.  Make sure you do this
before they reach 8-weeks of age!  Make sure that they are eating solid food
and drinking on their own.

Above all, if you lose any or all the babies, or if Mom happens to eat any or
all, don't let it bother you too much.  This sort of thing, especially the
latter, is very hard for people to deal with but it is perfectly natural for
hedgehogs.

Some of the reasons why mother hedgehogs might kill, eat, or reject their
babies are as follows:

They were disturbed.  In the wild, almost any kind of disturbance means a
predator is there and it will almost certainly eat the babies.  Rather than
lose the very hard won nutrients that she put into producing the babies,
mother hedgehogs will `reabsorb' them herself in the hopes of being able to
use it for another litter later on.  This seems very harsh, but it's only a
reflection of the environment that they developed in.

Mom thinks something's wrong.  If mom thinks one or more babies are not right
(deformed or if they otherwise have problems that she can detect), she may
kill or `reabsorb' them with the understanding that they wouldn't have
survived long anyway.

Mom's not secure.  If mom feels conditions are not right for bringing up
babies (not enough food, or not the right nutrients/vitamins/etc.) she may
feel that they are not likely to survive, or that she won't be able to
provide for all of them.

Mom's too young or immature.  If mom is too young, or often with her first
litter, she may just not know what to do, or can't deal with the babies.
This doesn't necessarily mean she will be a bad mother -- I've heard of many
who after losing a first litter, or even a second, went on to be excellent
moms with later litters.  If a female eats more than two of her litters, it's
probably not a good idea to keep trying.

Again, if worst comes to worst, and you lose some or all the babies, don't
let it get you down.  Just concentrate on what you do have.

As the babies grow, various events will begin to take place.  This is a very
rough timeline on baby African pigmy hedgehog growth:

Early on the `birth' quills will be replaced by the first set of baby quills.

The eyes will open by around the week 3.

At about week 3-4 the babies will begin to start tasting solid food.  You can
help things out here by offering dry food which has been dampened to make it
softer, or by using some canned food.  Generally, though, most babies will
manage very well in very short order -- it IS food after all, and these are
starving baby hedgeHOGs!

By about week 6, the babies should be well on their way to being weaned.
Some will hold out until week 7, but by then they should all be on solid
food.  No doubt much to mom's relief!

Finally, by the time the babies reach week 8, they need to be separated from
mom -- at least you need to separate any males, or you risk both mom, and any
female babies becoming pregnant -- neither of which are in any condition to
handle it at this stage!

------------------------------

Subject: <10.3> Hand feeding baby hedgehogs

One of the most difficult times for hedgehog owners comes if a new mother
hedgehog rejects some or all of her babies, or otherwise can't manage to
provide for all of them.  Unfortunately, it is fairly common for hedgehogs to
eat their babies [10.1], and/or reject them, especially if it is a first
litter, or if the mother was disturbed (mother hedgehogs need considerable
peace and quiet).  Many hedgehog owners are bothered quite badly by these
actions on the part of the hedgehog, as they are extremely foreign concepts
to humans, but they are (sadly) perfectly natural and normal amongst
hedgehogs.

Before deciding to hand feed, try returning rejected babies to the nest
(using a spoon to avoid getting your scent on them), or if possible by
fostering with another mother who is nursing (rub the babies in bedding from
that mother's cage to have them smell familiar).  Many breeders will
purposely breed two females at the same time for this purpose, though I
caution that fostering does not always work.

All that having been said, what do you do if you decide you need to hand feed
baby hedgehogs?  The first thing is to convince yourself that sleep is an
undesirable luxury, as you will be feeding the babies every 2-3 hours (yes,
that means night and day) for about 3+ weeks.  If you're still up to trying,
what do you feed them, and how?

I'll address the easy part first -- how.  For this, among the best items are
plastic syringes (without needles), eye-droppers, or plastic pipettes (the
type with the suction bulb at the end).  The idea is to be able to provide a
minute but reasonably available stream of 'milk' to the baby in a controlled
manner.

Next is the question of what to feed them.  Generally, the rule about
avoiding or limiting cows' milk for adult hedgehogs also applies to babies,
and maybe even more so.  That having been said, I have heard of one little
tyke who wouldn't drink anything else, and at last word was doing just fine.

Robyn Gorton, who was studying hedgehogs in New Zealand, passed along the
following information on caring for babies.  Although her work is with
European hedgehogs, the information is quite applicable to African pigmy
hedgehogs as well.

   I find that caring for the young is simple enough as long as you have a
   good milk to feed them.  I have discovered that sheeps' milk is the
   closest in composition to hhog milk and acts as an excellent substitute
   when mixed with raw egg.  It may for the first few days cause swelling of
   the anus, but as soon as they start teething (3 weeks) you can add mashed
   banana for fibre and their problems clear up.  It's a very high protein
   diet but one must watch for a vitamin B deficiency which can be caused
   by too much raw egg.  I had my two hoglets suckling on a syringe for the
   first week and 1/2 until their teeth erupted (this takes three days for a
   full set to emerge!!) then simply start using a saucer and they will
   naturally feed from it themselves.

I've also heard of using goats' milk, similar to what Robyn suggested above,
though I trust her research as far sheeps' milk being closer to hedgehog
milk.  I do need to caution, however, about the use of raw eggs, as they can
cause problems of their own [6.2] -- this, however, may be one situation
where bending those rules is worthwhile.

What do you do if you don't have a friendly goat or sheep, or can't easily
find sheeps' or goats' milk?  Many pet stores and pet supply stores carry KMR
(Kitten Milk Replacement).  It's usually in powdered form, which makes it
handy for the small quantities you will need.  I've seen quite a few articles
from breeders who have used this with great success, some go on to recommend
that most hedgehog breeders should keep a container of KMR around, just in
case.

Recently (June/2005), I've heard from Cindy, who reported serious problems
from using KMR.  Having used it successfully, myself, in the past, I'm not
whether this has to do with the form (powdered versus canned), or perhaps
there has been a change in the formula (it has been some time since I last
used it), but the caution and suggestions are always worth mentioning,
especially when it appears there are some excellent alternatives, as she
suggests.  At the very least, whenever you feed a baby hedgehog by hand,
please make VERY sure that you follow the steps to induce them to defecate
afterwards -- not doing so will certainly cause bloating and lead to tragedy.

     KMR makes them bloat, then comes the internal bleeding, then they die.
     I have had the best luck with puppy esbilac with just a few grains of
     crushed lactaid.  If you see any sign of bloating, give them just a
     drop of baby gas drops containing simethicone.
     -- Cindy

I've also heard of Esbilac (human baby formula) being used successfully, to
offer yet another option.  Anja van der Werf pointed out to me that when you
are trying to use human formula, make sure it is soy-based rather than based
on cows' milk.

One thing to watch out for in feeding baby hedgehogs, is that after each
feeding you must stimulate them to defecate and urinate, otherwise their
bladder and bowel will swell up and can even burst.  To do this, simply
stroke along their tummy towards the anus, which simulates a mother licking
and grooming her babies.  You can also do this with a warm damp tissue or
cloth.  The idea isn't to squeeze anything out, just to stimulate the baby to
do it's business.

Remember that hand raising baby hedgehogs is very difficult, and if you try
and meet with tragedy, remember that you gave them much more of a chance than
they would have had without you.  Whatever happens, don't give up and decide
that hedgehogs are bad, or that it's not worth having hoglets -- it's just
hedgehog nature, and next time may well be nothing short of magical.

------------------------------

Subject: <10.4> Colours, types, and species

As was noted back in [3.1], the hedgehogs kept as pets throughout much of the
world are a hybrid of Algerian and White-Bellied hedgehogs.  Most of the
colours, and variations that we see can be traced to these two species, and
many are the result of the interbreeding of the various original species.

Of course, Long-eared hedgehogs are also kept as pets in various places, but
I regret that I don't have enough knowledge to offer any useful comments on
them.  The same applies to those other species which are occasionally kept as
pets.  As a result, most of this section will focus on the
Algerian/White-Bellied hybrid type.

At last check there were roughly 100 colour variations known, and others
which were hypothisized.  So far, this is all without mutations being a
factor.  Here are some examples of hedgehog colours.

White-Bellied Hedgehog Colours

    Dominant Colours:

       	Salt & Pepper
       	Dark Grey
       	Grey
       	Chocolate
       	Brown
       	Cinnamon
       	Dark Cinnicot
       	Black-Eyed Cinnicot
       	Ruby-Eyed Cinnicot
       	Champagne
       	Apricot

    Snowflake Colours:

       	Silver - the recessive of Salt & Pepper
       	Silver Charcoal - the recessive of Dark Grey or Double rec. of Grey
       	Charcoal - the recessive of Grey
       	Chocolate Chip - the recessive of Chocolate
       	Brown Snowflake - the recessive of Brown or double rec. Choc. Chip
       	(Cinnamon) Snowflake - the recessive of Cinnamon
       	Silver-Cinnamon Snowflake - the double recessive of Cinnamon
       	Dark Cinnacot Snowflake - the recessive of Dark Cinnacot or the
       	                          double recessive of Black-Eyed Cinnacot
       	Black-Eyed Cinnacot Snowflake - the recessive of Black-Eyed Cinnacot
       	Ruby-Eyed Cinnacot Snowflake - the recessive of Ruby-Eyed Cinnacot
       	Champagne Snowflake - the recessive of Champagne or double recessive
       	                      of Ruby-Eyed Cinnacot
       	Apricot Snowflake - the recessive of Apricot
       	Pale Apricot Snowflake - the double recessive of Apricot

White Colours:

    The White category comprises those animals that possess almost 100%
    solid white spines.

    The few banded spines that these hedgehogs have are localized to the
    forehead area, with a few possible across the remainder of the
    back. These few banded spines on the back, however, should count no
    more than 10. Any more than this and it is categorized as a Snowflake.

    White is a dilute (prime) of the recessive snowflake. Although not all
    are listed here, there is a total of 15 White possibilities in the
    White-Bellied colour spectrum.

       	Platinum - the dilute of Salt & Pepper
       	Silver Charcoal White - the dilute of Dark Grey
       	Charcoal White - the dilute of Grey
       	Chocolate White - the dilute of Chocolate
       	Brown White - the dilute of Brown
       	White - the dilute of Cinnamon
       	Albino - Albinos are unique due to the total lack of pigmentation.

Algerian Colours:

       	Black Algerian
       	Dark Grey Algerian
       	Grey Algerian
       	Chocolate Algerian
       	Brown Algerian
       	Cinnamon Algerian
       	Champagne Algerian

Just a reminder that this is not a comprehensive list of colours, but is
intended more as a guide.  Also, when breeding for colours, it is imperative
that you make sure you do not lose sight of temperament, and basics of good
husbandry in pursuit of a colour goal -- doing so is not gaining anyone, or
any hedgehog anything.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


author: Brian MacNamara

subject: Hedgehog FAQ [5/7] - Care and Understanding

text:
Archive-name: hedgehog-faq/part5
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Keywords: faq pet hedgehogs

Last-modified: 23 August 2006
Version: 3.89

HEDGEHOG FAQ (part 5 of 7) -- HEDGEHOG HEALTH CARE AND UNDERSTANDING
Compiled and edited by Brian MacNamara ([email])
Additions, corrections, and suggestions for this file are welcomed.

This document is copyright 2006 by Brian MacNamara.  See section [0.6]
for authorship information and redistribution rights.  In short, you
can give it away, but you can't charge for it.

The basic Hedgehog FAQ has seven parts, all of which should be available
from wherever you obtained this one.  A complete table of contents for
all seven parts is given below.

Please note:  While my knowledge of hedgehogs has grown (far beyond my
wildest expectations when I began the FAQ), my knowledge is still quite
limited, especially in areas of health care.  I did not write, or verify,
all the information in this FAQ.  I have done my best to include only
accurate and useful information, but I cannot guarantee the correctness
of what is contained in this FAQ, regardless of the source, or even that
it will not be harmful to you or your hedgehog in some way.  For advice
from an expert, I recommend you consult the books listed in part 2 [2.1],
or, especially in the case of a suspected medical problem, a veterinarian
who is familiar with hedgehogs.

------------------------------

Subject: CONTENTS OF THIS FILE

7. *** Things hedgehogs say and do ***

   <7.1> Self-anointing.  What is it?  Why do hedgehogs do it?
   <7.2> My hedgehog snuffles and hides a lot.  Is that normal?
   <7.3> Is he just asleep or hibernating?
   <7.4> My hedgehog sneezes.  What should I do?
   <7.5> My hedgehog's gone ballistic?  Is this normal?
   <7.6> Basic hedgehog repertoire

8. *** Basic health care ***

   <8.1> What health risks should I worry about?
   <8.2> Mites (or mites, not?)
   <8.3> Tattered or ragged ears
   <8.4> Hedgehog first-aid kit
   <8.5> Do I need to spay/neuter my pet?
   <8.6> Vaccinations, etc.

9. *** Problems to watch for and related information ***

   <9.1> Various hedgehog health issues
   <9.2> My hedgehog's had funny-looking stools for a couple of days.
         What's wrong?
   <9.3> My hedgehog's not eating.  What should I do?
   <9.4> How did I get fleas in my home?  How can I get rid of
         them?
   <9.5> Wobbly hedgehogs

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

7. *** Things hedgehogs say and do ***

------------------------------

Subject: <7.1> Self-anointing.  What is it?  Why do hedgehogs do it?

I have mentioned self-anointing (or self-lathering, as it is sometime called,
in at least the U.K.) repeatedly throughout the FAQ, so now it is time to
explore the hedgehog's one truly unique trait.  Nathan Tenny provided a good
description of this interesting and perplexing hedgehog habit:

    If you smell *really* interesting, your hedgehog will lick
    or nibble on you, back off, and suddenly contort itself, start
    foaming at the mouth, and lick the foam onto its spines.  This
    ``self-anointing'' has to be seen to be believed, but it's perfectly
    normal.  It's not known for sure why they do it, but it probably
    has something to do with self-defence; hedgehogs are *highly*
    resistant to most toxins, and when they encounter something that
    might be toxic, they get it in their mouths, foam, and cover
    themselves with the toxic mixture.  The result is a toxic hedgehog,
    which is really something to reckon with.  (Incidentally, the toxin
    resistance of hedgehogs is truly prodigious and has been the subject
    of some research; they are one of the few animals that can safely eat
    giant toads (_Bufo marinus_), for instance.)

    One more last note:  We don't know why this happens, but even without
    the benefit of self-anointing, their spines seem to have a mild
    toxic/irritant effect; when you prick yourself on one, even slightly,
    it hurts more than it should, and for a little bit longer.  No big deal,
    just sort of strange.

One of the most effective ways to provoke a session of self-anointing is to
pick up your hedgehog when you have sweaty hands, or after having used hand
lotion, or a different type of soap.

In any case, once you have witnessed this entertaining act, and you have
calmed down enough to understand your little friend doesn't have rabies after
all, you will likely be convinced that hedgehogs do not have backbones.  It's
really hard to believe something as round as a hedgehog can twist itself into
that contorted a position.  It's also a bit disconcerting to learn just how
long that tongue is!

------------------------------

Subject: <7.2> My hedgehog snuffles and hides a lot.  Is that normal?

Yep.  If he doesn't, are you sure you have a hedgehog?  The snuffling or
snorting (or snurfling, as my wife calls it), while having the head tucked
down, is part of the defence mechanism that has kept hedgehogs around for a
very long time.  It basically leaves them with their quills protecting every
bit of visible surface, but still allows the hedgehog to move.  The snuffling
and snorting is usually accompanied by sudden lurches in the direction the
hedgehog believes its potential enemy is in, to try and give it a good
warning prickle.

The more your hedgehog comes to know you, the less you will get the sharp
shoulder treatment.  One exception to this is if your hedgehog is sleepy.  A
sleepy hedgehog can be very insistent about not being disturbed [3.1].

Getting your hedgehog to become familiar with you takes a lot of patience,
but it is worth it.  If your hedgehog tends to be somewhat shy or unfriendly
towards you, try spending more time holding him -- chances are he just
doesn't associate your smell with being a friend, yet.  For more information
on getting your hedgie used to you, see section [4.6].

------------------------------

Subject: <7.3> Is he just asleep or hibernating?

A quick note here: this section applies to African Pigmy hedgehogs, rather
than European hedgehogs (which do hibernate, primarily between January and
March).

A common concern is whether or not pet hedgehogs can, or should hibernate --
especially as winter starts to arrive.  The answer to the first part -- can
they? -- is yes.  The answer to the second part -- should they? -- is NO!

Our pet hedgehogs are African in origin.  They have adapted to the much
warmer climate, and have generally lost the ability to tolerate hibernation.
While they can still go into hibernation, when they get too cold, and they do
have the ability to Aestivate (similar to hibernation, but to survive very
hot, dry periods), their chances of surviving either for more than a brief
period are virtually nonexistant.  In effect the hibernation ability is
almost vestigal, and aestivation is almost as dangerous for an animal which
is not prepared for it.

As pets, hedgehogs do not stock up on food, nor put on the necessary extra
body fat (at least in the right manner) needed to get through hibernation.  A
pet that is allowed to even suffer semi-hibernation extensively can suffer
long term effects (becomming very weak and sick), and those that do end up in
full hibernation will rarely survive beyond 1-2 days in this state, if at
all.

Now that we've made it clear that they shouldn't be allowed to hibernate (or
even go into semi-hibernation, what are the signs to look for, and how do you
prevent it from happening?  The good news is that if caught in time, the
effects are reversable.  If the temperature where they are kept drops too low
(below about 20 degrees C or 68 degrees F), they can start preparing for
hibernation and will certainly go into hibernation for brief periods, if the
temperature drops much below this -- at least until the temperature returns
to a comfortable level.

If your hedgehog seems to be sleeping too soundly, and you are worried, any
kind of movement to his or her bed will usually earn you at least a brief
spate of unhappy snuffling.  If this happens, then you can probably assume
you've just disturbed a sleepy hedgehog, or at least he's not in full
hibernation.  If this and nudging at him don't have any effect, and he's been
in quite a cool (for a hedgehog) temperature, he may have slipped into the
beginnings of hibernation, and should be gently (and slowly) warmed up, which
should let him awaken, and come back to full activity.

Hedgehogs will also tend to slow down and get somewhat grumpy if they are
kept at a temperature that's too cool for their liking.  If you're finding
that your previously energetic hedgehog is acting a bit slow and grumpy, and
cool weather has started to arrive, then you may want to take steps to warm
up your hedgehog [5.2], [7.3].

One of the most common signs of a hedgehog being too cold (semi-hibernation),
is being very unsteady on its feet.  Wobbly hedgehogs, or ones showing signs
of problems in their hindquarters are almost always due to being too cold.
There are some other causes for this type of symptom, as well (see [9.5] on
Wobbly Hedgehogs), but of the cases I've heard of over 99% are from being
cold.

Another sign that a hedgehog that is too cool is its going off its food.  If
your hedgehog isn't eating, and is walking a bit funny, it may be because he
is a bit cool.

    The first thing to do is to check to see if the animal is warm enough.
    Feel its legs and belly.  If these feel chilled the animal needs to be
    immediately warmed up.  A chilled hedgehog will walk as if it is drunk.
    A variety of methods can be used to warm them.  The one that I use is
    to put the animal in the cut off sleeve of a sweatshirt.  I then put
    it in a box (I actually have an 8 litre cooler that I use) with a jar
    of hot water.  Close the lid of the box (or put the lid on loosely to
    allow for air in the cooler).  They usually warm up in about an hour
    or so.  When I put the animal back in its own cage, I make sure I give
    it a sleeve to keep warm in.  Some animals are more prone to chills
    than others.
    -- Linda Wheatley

In general, the likelihood of hibernation happening is quite low, so if your
hedgehog isn't making its home in the refrigerator, and you don't like living
in subarctic conditions indoors, you probably shouldn't worry.  That having
been said, I have heard of several instances of it happening (briefly, and
all fully recovered when warmed up), so some caution is worthwhile.

Recently, another cause of hibernation, or more commonly, partial hibernation
has shown up.  It appears that hedgehogs are quite sensitive to the short
daylight hours, or even low light, as can happen during the winter months.
If your hedgehog is warm enough, but still shows indications of wanting to
hibernate, try leaving a light on to extend the `length of the day' for him.
I've seen this help with my own hedgehogs, and my thanks to both Dawn Wrobel
and Sharon Massena for bringing it to my attention.

Beyond even the light issue, it appears that some `lines' of pet hedgehogs
may be more prone to hibernation, or rather trying to hibernate than others.
In some cases, you may need to be very diligent to ensure your little friend
doesn't drift off into a one-way winter's nap on you.  Details on this,
assumed, genetic link are very sketchy as yet.

Also a worry is the chance of pet hedgehogs going into aestivation.  This is
similar to hibernation, but is done when things get too warm.  In their
natural habitat, this is to let the hedgehog wait things out until cooler
and/or damper weather returns.  Pet hedgehogs can slip into this state,
especially in light of heatwaves in recent years in North America.  The
problems and side effects of aestivation are largely the same as for
hibernation.

Remember, keep your hedgie warm!

------------------------------

Subject: <7.4> My hedgehog sneezes.  What should I do?

Occasional sneezes are normal.  When you consider the amount of exploring
that hedgehogs like to do, in combination with just how busy that little nose
is, it's pretty easy to understand that the result will be an occasional
sneeze.

Extended sneezing fits, or nasal discharge, however, indicates a problem, and
a trip to the vet is in order.  This can indicate anything from a respiratory
problem, to a bad cold.  In most cases, the treatment will consist of
antibiotics, which usually help beat the problem in short order.

------------------------------

Subject: <7.5> My hedgehog's gone ballistic?  Is this normal?

You've just introduced your hedgehog to a nice new big pen and all of a
sudden it's like he's going crazy, running madly around the cage, trying to
get out of every little nook and cranny, and generally driving you up the
wall.  Yes, this is quite normal (for the hedgehog -- you being up the wall,
I can't comment on).

Hedgehogs appear to do this when they get into a new environment, and will
usually settle down in a while, once they decide that (a) they can't actually
get out (which given the slightest chance, they will), and (b) they have
decided this is now home.  Some hedgehogs will literally climb the walls just
to check whether you remembered a roof or not.  My Pocus was a fine example
of this.  She would climb anything, anywhere, anytime, to any height.

Some things you can do to reduce the chaos and chances of reoccurrence are to
provide a familiar nest or burrow for your little beast, and to install a
wheel for exercise [5.6], [5.7] (all that energy is pretty normal in
hedgehogs -- scary, huh?).  Lots of active play times can help too.

One other answer here is to simply enjoy the fact that you have a healthy,
energetic hedgehog.

------------------------------

Subject: <7.6> Basic hedgehog repertoire

As far as sounds go, officially, the only sounds that hedgehogs are supposed
to make is their snuffling and snorting when they are feeling threatened, and
some squeaking as babies, or during mating.  That said, I can tell you
hedgehogs have an amazing number of little sounds in their repertoire.  I
have it on good advice and from personal experience that there are a number
of other hedgehog vocalizations that occur in both babies and adults.

Most of the time, aside from the snuffling, the only sound most hedgies make
is a soft `whiffling' sound, usually as they are exploring and sniffing for
new and interesting discoveries.

One time that hedgehogs completely abandon their silent ways is when it comes
to mating.  This is particularly true of males who will often end up sounding
like a video game gone wild with an amazing series of squeaks and chirps as
they vie for the favours of the lady.

In addition, here are some comments from other people on hedgehog sounds:

    At least two of my younger ones have kept this ability [nursing
    type squeaks] and can shriek quite loudly when startled or angry.
    This will wake the deepest sleeper.
    -- Mike McGary

    All the hedgehogs I've known have made a quiet twittering noise when
    they were relaxed and exploring.
    -- Nathan Tenny

I'd like to thank Mike McGary, with some commentary from Nathan Tenny and
Znofyl, for sharing thoughts on the virtuoso singing of hedgehogs here to
give people an idea of some of the extremes that can be reached.  I would
also like to note that unless a lady-hog was in his immediate company, the
loudest thing that ever came out of Velcro, other than snuffling, was a
contented slurp when he buried his nose in a container of cream.

    The books all say that hedgehogs don't make much noise.  They do squeak
    for their mother when they are still nursing and make snorting and
    snuffling noises as adults....one account says that they can snore quite
    loudly.

    My young male (Adam) has been known to scream when frightened.  This
    isn't a small squeak, but a full-fledged rabbit-caught-in-a-trap
    scream.  But the real oddity has started recently.  We have one of
    those beep-beep-beep-beep alarm clocks.  We normally set it for
    6:00 am, but keep pushing the snooze button every time it goes off
    (sometimes for a long time).  After the alarm goes off, Adam starts
    to make this eeeeh-eeeeeh-eeeeeeh sound like he is imitating the
    alarm clock.  He does it every morning and you can get up and
    watch him....he doesn't move....he just sings.
    -- Mike McGary

The following from Znofyl and Nathan are about as good an answer to this
mystery as we're likely to get without growing quills ourselves:

    I wonder whether the hedgie isn't responding to this alarm noise
    thinking it is another male. My males are VERY noisy when breeding.
    -- Znofyl

    This sounds really likely to me.  My male's mating noise is a sort of
    breathy ``squeeEEEEEk-squeeEEEEEk''---is that the general tenor of
    Adam's morning ditty?
    -- Nathan Tenny


author: K. A. Cannon

subject: Re: Forgeries

text:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:52:42 -0400, Jamie <[email]>
wrote:

<Crossposted to
alt.apews.jamie-is-a-spamtard,alt.apews.spammers.jamie-baillie,alt.spam.jamie-baillie,alt.fuckhead.jamie-baillie,alt.jamie-baillie.likes.prostitutes,alt.sex.prostitution.jamie-baillie,alt.pedophile.jamie-baillie,alt.spammer.jamie-baillie

And

AUK>

You are a spammer who was sp stoopid you got caught sapmming so
therefore anything you post to Usenet or e-mail is SPAM.
Get it?

Oh...Hai...Are you that fuckheaded spammer Jamie *TardBoi* Baillie?

You are a spammer.

So sue me TardBoi.

Enjoy your new newsgroups.

Hehehehehe


author: Seth

subject: Re: Forgeries

text:
In article <g41mqn$rti$[email]>,
K. A. Cannon  <[email]> wrote:

Wrong.

Whether or not something is spam depends on that thing.  When a major
spammer comes to nanae to provide us [tinu] amusement, the individual
whines posted are generally not spam.

Seth


subject: Re: Forgeries

text:
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:03:23 +0000 (UTC), [email] (Seth)
wrote:

So that would be *the* exception to the rule?


subject: Re: Forgeries

text:
In article <g5edjn$4s5$[email]>,
K. A. Cannon  <[email]> wrote:

It's the most blatant.  But whether or not something is spam depends
on how many copies of _it_ are around, not on what _else_ (else = "not
substantively identical to this message") the same poster might be
responsible for.

Seth


author: George Orwell

subject: Re: Tokyo Subway to Display Naked Spears Ad

text:
In article <[email]>
[email] wrote:

Why?


author: Alan Connor

subject: [OT] Re: Tokyo Subway to Display Naked Spears Ad

text:
On news.software.readers, in <[email]>, "[email]" wrote:

<article not downloaded:
http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>

Typical of the anonymous remailer feebs, this fellow can't even
comprehend the name of these newsgroups.

Or is it that he thinks we are all like him: A loser who has
never even _seen_ a real naked woman and gets all excited by the
mere mention of a poster depicting one.

Get out, Junior. Just turn off your computer and change out of
your Super Mega Death Ninja Warrior pajamas into jeans and a
t-shirt and running shoes and go down to the mall.

To the health and fitness club. No woman is going to look
twice at you until you lose about a hundred pounds.

Go every day. Take it easy at first. And be patient. It'll
take the better part of a year.

Alan


text:
On news.software.readers, in <[email]>, "Alan Connor" wrote:

<snip>

I just checked my kill-log. There are numerous entries like this:

#Score -999 killed article <[email]>
#Score = -999: /boot/SLRNpull/score:15
#Newsgroup: news.software.readers
#From: Alan Connor FGA
#Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Tokyo Subway to Display Naked Spears Ad - - Information about "Alan Connor"

Poor feeb. He actually thinks that having his spamming software
follow me all over the Usenet and post those articles will harm
me.

(Bet he's never made a single cent spamming the Usenet. In fact,
it has _cost_ him money.)

Curse Bill Gates for making it possible for idiots to use
computers.

Have fun, Silly Troll. No dickless, windoze-weenie, script kitty
punk like you has the slightest chance of being able to harm me
in any way.

If you weren't dumb as a brick, you'd realize that you are out of
your league.

Alan


author: Sam

text:
Usenet Beavis writes:

Thank you for your kookfart, Beavis.

Indeed.  Beavis's limited cranium cannot grasp the idea that most news
servers have well-tuned filters that filter out most Usenet spam, and only
his crappy Earthlink's server lets all the garbage through.  So, most folks
weren't even aware of the spam that Beavis had a kookfart about, until he
posted his whine.

Stupid Beavis.

Indeed, it's almost a certainty that you think everyone else is like you.


author: Serget

subject: Re: [OT] Re: Tokyo Subway to Display Naked Spears Ad

text:
In article <[email]>
Alan Connor <[email]> wrote:

Flush troll post.


text:
On news.software.readers, in <[email]>, "Serget" wrote:

<article not downloaded:
http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>

This feeb actually believes that we don't know that he's the same
dishonest coward that posted the article I was responding to.

<snicker>

Curse Bill Gates for making it possible for idiots to
use computers.

Alan


author: DanS

text:
Alan Connor <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Just for us who don't understand, how _exactly_ can you tell that post is
the same person as the OP ?

The headers don't seem very similar at all. The headers themselves even,
not just the content of the headers.

I guess I just don't see it.


author: librarian

subject: Re: CFV: news.admin.moderation

text:
In article <8293vc$sos$[email]>, [email] (Denis McKeon) wrote:

Ok, you power maniacs and "vote" takers.
The NO "votes" of ANY "moderator" are to be discarded
and placed on record as evidence of their corruptness.

Those votes are TOTALLY invalid.
Those people are disqualified on the basis of conflict of interest.
Furthermore, the "no" votes are INVALID in ANY vote,
as they do not correspond the very essense of the vote,
to find out the INTEREST in the group.

Ok, but before we do that, lemme ask you a kwestion:
Why are we even talking about creation of this group on the
first place?

This group SHOULD have been created BY DEFAULT,
as soon, as the "moderation" trick was invented.

WHERE do you talk about the virutal group takeover by those
most intolerant of all, and all those pathological liars,
who start a campaign behind the scene on unmoderated group,
pretending they want to "moderate" it "improve kwality" and
signal to noise ratio?

WHERE?

Well, lets see what kind of fabrications are you going to produce
here. I bet you gonna suck as good, as it gets.

Anybody wanna place the bets on the table?

Ok, let us see now.

Uhu.

Ok, fabrication number sucking one.

Now, you send the email to the opressor of thought, that fascist,
pretending to be a "moderator" and he simply ignores it.
Whatcha gonna do then?

Send him another email?

Ok, he then sends YOU an email telling you to stop harassing him,
and reports you to your ISP as a harasser.

You like?

You see, the power maniacs are not even obliged to respond to your
stinky email. First of all, they know the number sucking one rule
of the virtual dictator:

YEE SHALT NEVER EVER EVEN CONCEIVE THE IDEA OF TOPPLING A SITTING
DICTATOR, aka "moderator".

Zo...

No matter what YOU do, that parasite, and the most unmoderate
individual, knows all too well: He is going to keep that group,
all for himself and his perverted enjoyment of virtual destruction.

Now, can you dig how bad you suck from the very first assertion?

What are you fabricating here?

Fine and dandy. Now, comp.ai was taken over by that pathological
liar, an outright censor, and a virtual fascist, who not only
claims he "moderates" that group with a bot, which is the obscenest
of ALL obscene ideas, as you can not even imagine in your wildest
dreams how can you "moderate" an intelligence related group with a bot,
but creates two lists, the blacklist, and the whitelist.
Those on the blacklikst, go to a "bit bucket", according to his
own statments, and those on the "whitelist", aka the Aryan nation
of pure blooded AUTOMATICALLY are allowed to post, no matter what
kind of obscenity they say.

Read my post on
"Subject: Re: Proposal: Remove moderation from comp.ai",
posted here within the last 24 hrs. It is all there, suxy.

Zo, WHERE do you talk?
There AINT not "related" group to comp.ai.
Comp.ai is a ROOT of entire comp.ai tree.
How do people know where to post their criticism of this
power maniac, who not only did not help that group, but simply
virtually destroyed it. That group now is a dump for advertisements.
There is not eve a shred of interesting discussion on it for a
long, long time now.

Zig bite!

On what basis?
That is the ONLY argument you got?
"SHOULD not be needed"?

Ok, what are the specifics of your delusional proposal?

Fabrication number two, or well beyond that?
Ok, here:

Are the lowest grade power maniacs and the most intolerant of ALL,
whose blood boils just seeing the ideas that do not correspond to
their own brainwashing, and who can not even manage to push the
"next" button on a 5 posts/day group on a GOOD day.

They are the most destructive elements on the newsnet,
who routinely engage in the takeovers of the groups of public
interest, converting them to "moderated" status, and thus,
combined with the number sucking one rule by tale, engaging
in nothing less than virtual sabotage of the global information
streams, serving the iterests of the global audience, who gave
them the authority to "moderated" utterly unsuspecting the results.

Fabrication number 3, at the very least.
News admins simply give a fuck about ANY group.
The traffic on "moderated" groups is about 0.01% of the total
traffic, and, furthermore, the "moderated" groups are the
virtual equivalent of the "private property". So, by definition,
they do not represent the public interests, which these news
admins are here to serve.

You see how you suck?

RATIONALE?

Hahahahahaha.

Ok, lets see what kind of fabrication is this one.

Lying your teeth off, by any chance, fabricating the delusions?

Ok, here is yer number sucking 6.

What kind of bullshit is this?

First of all, even your High Priests of Corruptions, aka
the Power Sucking Elite of totalitarism on the newsnet,
post "not on topic".

You want evidence?
You wanna see His Royal Suckiness Number Two, and His Royal
Idiocity Number Sucking Three Wannabe post NOT on topic,
and AS far, as it gets?

What are you fabricating here, suxy?

Are you trying to shift the issues of the newsnet abuse by
the "moderators" and destruction of the public forums into
the domain of oblivion by reducing it to the issue of "not
on topic" posting?

Hey, you gonna suck as good, as it gets on this one.

Ok, next.

First of all, they may be able to succeed to completely collapse the
entire system of sabotage of the global information streams,
you call "moderation", and destruction of the most fundamental
principles of ANY land, such as Basic Human Rights, the Freedom
of Speech, Freedom of Association, and things of that nature.

What are you defending here, you cunning manipulator of the very
essense of the issues at hand?

You know how good you gonna suck here?

Fuck your "peer" pressure bullshit.
It aint about some dinky "peer pressure, about which NOBODY
gives a funk, but about bringing this entire system of corruption,
abuse, control, opression, domination and GROSSEST disregard to
the most fundamental principles of the usenet, such as FACILITATION
of discussions, to its knees.

Yes, ON YOUR KNEES, suckazoids.
Your time has come to pay the bills.
Sure, you will try to hold on to power, you managed to grab,
all in the name of the noblest ideas, such as "public service",
for a while, but ...

Ok, here is what you are:
"Power corrupts, and ABSOLUTE power corrupts ABSOLUTELY".

And that is what they created here, the ABSOLUTE power,
of ABSOLUTE totalitarism, and a virtual equivalent of the
fascism, destruction of the very public good, they claim
to uphold here.

And YOU are doing here what?

Fabrication number what?

Who are you trying to bullshit here?

Again:

YEE SHALT NEVER EVER EVEN CONCEIVE THE IDEA OF TOPPLING A DICTATOR,
aka "moderator".

ANY sucking argument on this statement?

What sucky "flames" are you fabricating here out of nothing?
If you suck, you just suck. Period.
It aint some stupid "flame", you are trying to manipulate,
forever interested in guilt and fear manipulation.

It is just a fact of life:
You suck, and you suck as good, as it gets.
Even the black holes are jealous.

Yes in YOUR sucking NOT so humble opinion.

Are you peddling here humbleness, or and outright perversion
of the very issues on the table?

Get lost. Nobody needs YOUR readership.
You are just producing PUREST form of noise here.
Are you a "moderator", or have some perverted interest in such?

Why are you peddling all this stuff in one direction?

Tell me, oh suckazoid, is it a VALID issue that the moderation
is one of the most perverted aspects of the usenet?

Was usenet created to facilitate the "PRIVATE property",
or PUBLIC discussions?

ANY active neurons on line, mr. bio-robot, programmed into oblivion?

Huh?
Again?

Aha. Sure. And now you show your REAL face.
YOU are one of those destructors, aren't ya?

You see, by making even that group "moderated", you'd succeed
to FOREVER stop ANY discussions of the issues.

You are just a cunninmost manipulator, using your snake tricks,
but what you got at the end is the poison, suxy.

And NOTHING, but the poison, and of the PUREST form.

Now, can you dig it?

Ok, what is YOUR sucky problem with this group?
Are you a moderator?
Let them talk ANYTHING they want.
Are they sending you email messages?
Are they HARASSING YOU?

What is YOUR sucky problem here?

Who do you represent?

Aha. Yep, that is EXACTLY the idea:
THE Lightning Rod WITHOUT a ground strap.

And you, perverted power elite of manipulators, better get this
through your head real good.

Just try to prevent this group from being created.

Shove you plastic smile up your ass.
Produce ONLY flames?

Kewl. Thats the most exciting thing out there, aint it?

Get lost in the giant sucking machine.
Shove those obscene ideas of supression of the free flow of the ideas
up your ass. They are invalid. Your very power elite posts not on
topic. Zo... By implication, what follows?

"If you sniff my whiff, youre gonna get it stiff".

Ever heard?

Nobody is going to please your parasitic face of disgrace,
trying to manipulate even the issues, affecting the newsnet in
the most perverse ways, routinely killing some of the most
outstanding ideas.

You see how cunning you are?
Lightly?
And how is it possible to "modrate" lightly?
Once you become a "moderator", aka the opressor of thought,
the posts are forwarded to YOUR email account, and YOUR email
account ONLY. Now, you can do ANYTHING you wish with them,
including sending them to the "bit bucket", as that parasite
David Kinny calls it.

And what ANYBODY can do to you?

LIGHTLY?

Nope, chainsaw up your output hole.

Hahahahaha.

Is that YOU, by any humble chance?
Looking at the cunningness of your tone of voice and your subtle
and pretty tricky ways of manipulating the issues, looks like
YOU are trying to get that group under control, aren't ya?

Ok, WHO would that be?
Who, in your opinion is that "well respected" and "well-known"
individual might be?

Drop a hint here and there.

That is EXACTLY how the group takeover works.
In the beginning, just like YOU are doing here, they are saying:
Hey, this groups is gonna be the MOST democratic place on the
entire newsnet. Even the non-conventional ideas and tone of speech
WILL be "allowed", right?

ANYONE "SHOULD" be able to post, right.

Hey, but look at that poisonous trick you got there:
A "reasonable complaint".
Ok, what is that?

WHO defines the "reasonables" of that complaint?

hahahahaha.

Man, you suck full time?

Anybody told you to go suck a dead donkey ass,
so that revelations would happen to ya?

Ah, now you are talking.

YOU are but a smut, not only a "troll".
And YOU are the same prejudiced fascist, discrediting the views
of others on the basis of fascist ideas of intolerance,
classifying people as "flamers" and "trolls".

And look how cunning is your trick of "off-topic" posts.
Tell this to Russ, and that big ass Jay, and ALL the elitist
power maniacs, posting "not on topic".

By what authority they are allowed to do so, but the mere
"mortals" are not?

No redirection of the issues.
YOU can got post there ANYTHING you want, as your shit is going
to get swamped by the floods of other bullshit.

Get lost in the giant sucking machine with this kinda 'argument'.

But you would manipulate ANY issue, and manipulate it in EXACTLY
the same direction, cause you are corrupt so bad, that you must
have sold your own balls for a dollar each.

Huh?

Meta up your ass.

And who the fuck do you think YOU are?
What do YOU matter?
Just another pervert, interested in destroying one of the most
needed groups with your destructive "no" vote.

Ok, i wanna see the results of that vote.
We are likely to have zome issues to discuss.

Go suck a black hole, or better yet a dead mosquito ass.
Once the revelation happen to ya, then come back and we'll
talk more.

May be.
May be not.

Afraid of flames?

Ok, are YOU a "moderator" yourself?

Ok, you power maniacs and "vote" takers.
The NO "votes" of ANY "moderator" are to be discarded
and placed on record as evidence of their corruptness.

Make sure you get this REAL good.


author: Ricardo Hector Gonzales

subject: Re: FAQ: "Rogue Sites" on the Internet

text:
[newsgroups de-ratcliffed]
Dave Ratcliffe ([email]) mumbled:
: In <5rjqtk$s7g$[email]>, [email]
: (Ricardo Hector Gonzales) wrote:
: -: |: Why don't you give the same scolding to those whose ideas you support?
: -: |
: -: |I've given up scolding anyone and just point out those who attack me
: -: |with the immature "kook" comment or some other cheap personal attack.
: -:
: -: Like referring to people as "goyim"?
: -
: -There's nothing at all wrong with referring to goyim as goyim.  It's no
: -different than calling a tree a tree or a house a house.
:
: It was clear in the manner in which you used the term that it was intended
: as an insult.

Only to the extent that you reveal your personal prejudices by reading
into my statement what was not there.  The fact that Johnathan Kamens and
I are supporting traditional Jewish moral values should not be subject to
attack by your personal biases.  We will refer to goyim as goyim and will
not apologize for telling you the truth you are afraid to hear.  You can
deny it, but you're being dishonest if you do.

-Ric G.
Official FAQ Maintainer - news.admin hierarchy
"Of all the sins with which a man defiles himself in this world, this is the
sin with which he is most defiled." - M Shabbat 2:6


author: Alan V. Shackelford

subject: INN-2.4.0 Odd Storage Errors

text:
uJst upgraded to INN-2.4.0. by doing a complete rebuild, including
creating all new cycbuffs and reviewing all ~/etc files. The storage
conf looks like the example in samples:

method cnfs {
         newsgroups: *
         class: 1
         size: 0,3999
         expires: 4d1s
         options: ALT
}
method cnfs {
         newsgroups: *
         class: 2
         size: 0,3999
         expires: 0s,4d
         options: COMP
}
method cnfs {
         newsgroups: *
         class: 3
         size: 1,1000000
         options: BIGAREA
}

which would seem to cover every possible article. But I am getting
throttled with an error "May 17 14:09:43 news innd: SERVER throttled no
matching entry in storage.conf storing article -- throttling" which
would seem to indicate that there is an article with no place to go. The
server may run for a day before this happens, but it is usually less
than a day.

Anyone have an idea? I can provide additional exerpts from the logs as
required.

Thanks one and all.

Alan V. Shackelford
Johns Hopkins University
Enterprise Services Group


author: Russ Allbery

subject: Re: INN-2.4.0 Odd Storage Errors

text:
Alan V Shackelford <[email]> writes:

Except articles larger than 1MB.  Note that an article can become larger
than 1MB even if your server is configured to only accept articles of 1MB
in size or smaller because the server adds your host to the Path and adds
an Xref header after accepting the message.

(Your ALT buffer seems a bit oddly named, but maybe I just don't
understand your naming scheme.)


subject: Re: INN-2.4.0 Odd Storage Errors

text:
Sorry, Alan, I have a stupid question. I'm using Redhat 7.2 and Inn 2.3.2,
How Can I upgrade to 2.4.0? do you know the way? because I don't the source
and compile, all the path will change (RedHat store the Innd in /user/bin
and the source is store in /user/local/bin), because I have a open-to-public
newsgroup, I don't have any testing platform to do it, do you have any
experiment?? Thanks

Regards
Philip Au

"Alan V. Shackelford" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ba88oh$24m$[email]...

          * ~ let us linux ~ *

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----


author: Jeffrey M. Vinocur

subject: Re: INN-2.4.0 Odd Storage Errors

text:
In article <[email]>, ???@GHC ?? <[email]> wrote:

Upgrading to 2.4 is fairly straightforward, be sure to read the
instructions in the NEWS file located in the 2.4 source tree.

You can change the locations of your compiled INN to match those
that Redhat has used by passing the appropriate options to
./configure (check `./configure --help` to see what your choices
are, and then look at the lines starting with "path" in inn.conf
to see where files should be located).


author: Doug Freyburger

subject: Re: Usenet Copyright : Was:Re: Suggestion - Mod v Non-Mod groups (Repost)

text:
Charles wrote:

UseNet is a vanilla text only environment.  {Mag register 2 degree
degree 7} uses character sets fancier than some newsreaders will
display.  NG is particularly traditionalist about fancy character sets.

Using fancier character sets doesn't automatically mean crazy
but it does mean someone not aiming towards the center of
UseNet.  Selecting a handle like that is a deliberate, though
possibly unknown, attempt to not be taken as seriously on groups
that are traditionalist about UseNet.

There are groups where funny names work well.  NG isn't one of
them.  A fancy character set like that might not even be noticed as
strange at alll on a web forum.  It's cute, and cute doesn't tend to
be taken seriously.

When I checked {Mag register 2 degree degree 7}'s posting history
it only went back a few months.  Given the claim of 11 years of posting
history I didn't bother to look for previous nyms.  The suggestion
about mod vs non-mod groups doesn't take into account how
moderated groups work, and I can imagine spending 11 years posting
on groups where cute is okay and never learning about propagation.

My issue with the suggestion is far simpler - The purpose of
moderation is to remove flame wars.  Changing subject lines does
zero to reduce flame wars and thus defeats the point of moderation.
Since some moderation packages post rejected messages on a
web page and some don't, asking to have them posted shows
distrust not for just the proposed set of moderators in specific but
for the unknown mechanics of moderation in general.  It seemed
to me to be a question asked from ignorance.  Better to point
him at existing pairs of mod/un-mod groups and show him the
dynamics as they actually have happened in the past ...


author: Thomas Lee

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In message <Xns98BCCECB0667Cmypostdammet@207.14.116.130>, spooge
<[email]> writes

I do indeed find users in general of great value and continue to take
and news.groups.

What I do find lacking in value is the mission posters who have taken up
residence here. They seem to have an agenda which has nothing to do with
actually creating newsgroups in big-8. You demonstrate this well as do
others.

I have no problems with pesky opinions. I do have problems with mission
posters.

Thomas


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In message <eoebh6$r59$[email]>, [email] writes

The only reason I continue to read this group is because I feel there is
value here. But you make a good point that this justification is waning.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In message <[email]>, Jeremy Nixon
<[email]> writes

I did not say all posts were useful - but there are some good ideas.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In message <[email]>, Jeremy Nixon
<[email]> writes

There are good ideas here. Lots of noise, some trolls, and a few people
who seem unable to admit their mistakes - a lot like real life actually.

Thomas


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In message <4_pqh.1472$[email]>, Wayne Brown
<[email]> writes

Be careful what you wish for.

Thomas


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In message <JpOph.99$To.68@bigfe9>, Wayne Brown <[email]>
writes

Probably.

He had rights, but has left the scene forefitting any 'rights'.

Well since that did not happen...

I have been struggling to understand what the big deal is.  He submits
an RFD - what did he expect to happen? Did he really think we'd re-write
all the rules just for him??

Frankly, I'm becoming convinced this has been a good trool - the
proponent suddenly sprang to live in Mid Nov and has disappeared totally
and without trace. A principled individual would not indulge in sock
puppetry.

Thomas


author: Jonathan Kamens

text:
Magï¿½ 2ï¿½ï¿½7 <[email]> writes:

What you don't seem to get is that none of the methods you've
suggested are particularly viable or workable either.

Not to mention the fact that they get brought up over and over again
and then we end up discussing over and over again why they won't work,
and those of us who have been around for a while tire of it.


author: spooge

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Thomas Lee <[email]> wrote in news:[email]:

Since the opinions of users of Usenet are apparently of some little value
to you that you feel it might be justified to ignore this group, why not go
one step further and pull the plug on your PC?  Then you'd really not have
any pesky opinions of others to have to wade through.

Just trying to help, dude.


author: Jeremy Nixon

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Thomas Lee  <[email]> wrote:

Fuck that.  This group is worthless; full of people whose only goal is to
be in the way, to disrupt the process, who don't care at all about Usenet
but just want to break stuff for other people.  It's counter-productive.


author: Wayne Brown

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Thomas Lee <[email]> wrote:

Ooh, is that a threat?  Are you threatening to run away and hide in your
little moderated playground?  Because I was quite serious in what I said.
If you're not going to deal equally with proponents here -- if you're not
going to make it possible for proponents who *choose* to do so to carry
on the whole process here without ever setting foot in n.g.p., with no
disadvantage or penalty for making that choice -- then I think it would
be wonderful if none of you ever read or posted to news.groups again.


author: Aratzio

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:48:10 +0000, Thomas Lee <[email]> got
double secret probation because:

Since the Bambi rewrote the rules for themselves and continues to do
so, I'd be hard pressed not to see where someone could get that idea.


author: Mag

text:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 01:19:19 +0000 (UTC), [email]
(Jonathan Kamens) wrote:

Fair point after people here pointed out the flaws to my suggestion?
(even though to my way of thinking, rightly or wrongly, it seems most
of the objections revolve around how things are now rather than things
that could be changed if so needed to make an alternative suggestion
workable, hence my comment about being 'entrenched')

So, then the next question would be, if the current methods don't work
because of the general distrust of the moderation process and any
suggestions made so far, to try and find a solution that satisfies the
majority of people, don't work either, then what is a viable and
workable solution?

I keep seeing people so "no" to this and "no' to that but what I don't
see is anyone, who has a lot more experience of Usenet than I,  coming
up with an alternative solution! Maybe the "B8MB* needs to put their
collective heads together and come up with some viable and workable
solutions to propose? Maybe there isn't a solution? Or, maybe it's
just because some people are 'stuck' on the way things work currently
and are not willing to 'step outside the box' to find and/or agree to
an alternative solution.

Well, given I have not visited this group previously, I was unaware of
the fact that this is brought up repeatedly and so I can understand
why one might tire of the same sort of questions/suggestions.

However, the fact that it is brought up repeatedly also indicates to
me that a solution needs to be found as the issue itself, has never,
apparently been resolved to this day though as you said, if so many
are tied of discussing it then maybe it's a hopeless task in itself?


author: Dave Balderstone

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In article <Xns98BCCECB0667Cmypostdammet@207.14.116.130>, spooge
<[email]> wrote:

Even the Beighters that have said they won't read news.groups now that
they have their own playground still, I'm sure, lurk here just to see
what hurtful things are being said about them. It keeps their martyrdom
justified.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 22:08:59 -0000, Jeremy Nixon <[email]>
got double secret probation because:

Yes, and you seem to be leading that charge.

When did you become such a whiney lil hypocrite.

Never have explained how the Victory group or the software group were
done so easily, without n.g.p

Prolly cause good proposals get supported. Like say the physics guys
proposal? Horrible how the board members were treating them.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Jeremy Nixon <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Reads like a suicide note with the theme "You made me do this".

Just because others don't envision Usenet the same as you do, doesn't mean
that they too don't care about Usenet.  It's elitism/snobbery of anyone to
think that their version is the perfect one.


author: saur

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Wayne Brown <[email]>  wrote:

They won't run away and hide in their moderated group.  That would remove
many of the extraneous variables from the experiment and yield much cleaner
results.  They wouldn't have anyone to blame but themselves.

.


author: Steve Bonine

subject:
Re: Usenet Copyright : Was:Re: Suggestion - Mod v Non-Mod groups
 (Repost)

text:
Mag wrote:

I think this is the basis of the issue.  There is no general distrust of
the moderation process.  You're trying to solve a problem that does not
exist.  You are assuming that there is a problem because you see people
complain.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
spooge  <[email]> wrote:

Yes, I agree completely.


text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:10:02 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
wrote:

Umm.. so because people complain about the current system, doesn't
mean that a better system should be looked into and, if possible,
found?

I catch your drift though and as I said, several posts ago, I have no
axe to grind myself, with the current system of moderation at all.

I would be very pleased if there were a replacement group for n-s-c,
that was moderated as that group was one of the most useful sources
for information on the 'state of the union' as far as Usenet servers
and services was concerned, back in it's day before the noise got
intolerable and most of the people 'in the know' stayed away.

I suppose it's just the "Brit" in me wanting to ensure 'fair play' for
one and all but having said that, I should also really bear in mind
that you cannot simply 'please all of the people all of the time' and
as Jonathon informed me that the subject has been 'flogged to death'
on many occasions in here, maybe it's better to just drop it
altogether, which is what I sense you are suggesting too?


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Jeremy Nixon <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

That being the case, why are you disparaging the "noise" that is made up of
the Usenet visions of others?  Is it the way they are communicating?  Is it
the 'who' that is doing the communicating?


text:
Mag <[email]> writes:

You mentioned before the goal of finding a system that the majority of
people would be happy with.

The majority of people are happy with the system(s) that is/are
currently in use.

The people who complain are a small minority.


subject: News server comparison group

text:
Mag wrote:

I was re-reading the discussion of the news.servers RFD, and there was a
lot of positive reaction to the idea.  The RFD itself was not the best;
the name was bad and there was very little text in the RFD.  But based
on the comments that it precipitated, the idea for the group seems to
have promise.

So now what?  The proponent has disappeared.  Does that mean that
another RFD, for a group with a different name but a similar topic,
cannot be submitted?


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
spooge  <[email]> wrote:

The way, and their frustrating inability to see that this differs
fundamentally from the underlying ideas.


text:
In article <env1uf$61f$[email]>, Jonathan Kamens
<[email]> wrote:

And you know that using what metrics?


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:07:03 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
wrote:

Yes. Having just re-read through the original RFD and the discussion
that took place in that original thread, there seemed to be three main
areas of concern.

1) The name of the group was generally felt to be inappropriate.
news.services seemed to be the alternative that met with the best
reaction, though there were a few other suggestions made such as
news.Usenet.services for example.

2) The description was generally felt to be slightly 'off base' (No
biggie to fix I would think)

3) The decision to make it un-moderated.. This was the tricky one with
views on both sides of the fence, for and against moderation,
seemingly being pretty equal with maybe the slightest of slants being
towards some form of moderation to help prevent the noise levels which
killed off a.b.n-s-c for all intent and purpose.. Robo-moderation was
something that seemed to grab a few people's attention and approval
but that suggestion seemed to get a little lost in the general melee
of the discussion and maybe should be revisited?

I hope someone can put together another RFD, who knows what they are
doing in this particular field. If it was named more appropriately,
had a slightly better description and was moderated in some form or
another to help keep down the noise, then it would get my vote.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Steve Bonine <[email]> wrote:

Considering the way the original proponent was treated, I'd consider
it as evidence that he was deliberately chased away and his proposal
stolen from him if anyone from the board or their supporters were to move
forward without him on a proposal that was substantially the same as his.


author: Cyli

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:07:03 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
wrote:

Can't see why it couldn't be.  I think there was some problem about
the name, as in it possibly being providers rather than servers,
but....


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:07:03 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]> got
double secret probation because:

moderated, of course.


author: Martin X. Moleski, SJ

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:07:03 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]> wrote in <[email]>:

We don't have any hard-and-fast rules about that.

If you want to write an RFD, go ahead.

The worst case scenario is that all hell breaks loose
in news.groups and everybody reviles you for asking
for a new newsgroup.  Not really a big deal in the
long run.  :o)

				Marty


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In article <[email]>, Jeremy Nixon
<[email]> wrote:

Translation: "Because they disagree with me and aren't afraid to tell
me this."


text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:53:49 -0600, Dave Balderstone
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> got double secret probation
because:

The board took a poll and found consensus.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Wayne Brown  <[email]> wrote:

Considering that I participated in at least three different discussions
proposing the group before he came along, as much as a few years ago,
one could just as easily say *he* stole it.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:26:09 GMT, Wayne Brown <[email]>
wrote:

If the original proponent cannot be found or does not wish to propose
another or somewhat modified RFD then someone else cannot submit
another one that is slightly different? Sorry, but that makes no sense
to me.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Wayne Brown wrote:

You would consider the rising of the sun evidence against the Board.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:31:01 -0600, Cyli <[email]> got double
secret probation because:

Would the but be the abuse, forgery and disrespect the board dished
out to the proponent?

Funny, they don't seem to have a problem if it is their abuse that
drives off a proponent.

Actual usenet forgery (as defined my nym and email addy) by the
chairman of the B8 board and not one board member seemed to have an
issue with that.

Hell, the moderators of n.g.p allowed the post. So I guess I can post
as Tim in n.g.p and they have to allow it?


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Martin X. Moleski, SJ wrote:

Does this mean that several more entries in the wiki are called for <wink>

I did check . . . and it basically says that there are no rules yet.
Gee, I would so like to be the test case.

I'm not sure that I, personally, have enough interest in the topic to be
the proponent for a new group.  I think it's a good idea, though, and
would be glad to help someone else be the point person <grin>.

Right.  This one has the extra added attraction of a proponent who
disappeared, the usual hubub related to moderation, an existing
misplaced group in alt.binaries, another group in alt that is well named
but unused and unmoderated, not to mentiion the usual issues of naming,
traffic . . .

But I still think it's a good idea.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Dave Balderstone  <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

Thank you for so accurately and succinctly illustrating exactly the point
I was getting at.


text:
In article <[email]>, Aratzio
<[email]> wrote:

I wonder if they could break down the poll results by country or
continent. For a volunteer organization whose members whine about how
hard they work, determining what the majority of people feel about any
topic is a massive task, never mind on a topic as obscure as creating
Big 8 news groups.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Jeremy Nixon <[email]> wrote:

I doubt that he was in an official position to approve or deny your
proposal, or that he abused that position to drive you away so he could
take over your proposal; so it's hardly the same situation.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 04:03:03 -0000, Jeremy Nixon <[email]>
transparently proposed:

Cmon Jeremy, there were board members discussing what would be the
best moderation scheme for the proposal in n.g.p. Place yourself in
the proponents shoes and what would you believe at that point? Would
you have confidence that the board was taking you or your proposal
seriously, especially given his stated beliefs/ethics (did we ever get
that part cleared up?).


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:37:02 -0700, Mag <[email]>
transparently proposed:

Because there are members of the board who are in love with the idea
of moderation as a solution. The proponent was more than a little
anti-moderation, somewhat overboard to be exact. The board treated the
proponent like a second class citizen because of his stance with
respect to moderation. The board went as far as to forge (and the
moderators approved the forgery) a post to n.g.p in his name. Games
were played following up his posts with unannounced follow-ups to
n.g.p. His stance on moderation was derided by board members.

Basically they shit upon the proponent. Since they INSIST that the
discussion of RFD can only take place in n.g.p they trolled and abused
the proponent to show why n.g.p is needed.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Mag wrote:

Remember that you are in news.groups.  Any action (or inaction) will be
used to demonstrate a shortcoming of the Board.  That is basically the
point I was trying to make earlier in the thread that discussed your
proposals related to moderated groups.  You cannot assume that just
because you see someone complaining in news.groups that there is
actually a problem, or even an issue.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Steve Bonine <[email]> wrote:

True, a lot of my disagreement with the board is "on principle;" i.e.,
since I don't believe the board should exist, I automatically consider
anything they do to be wrong.

However, in this case, I would feel the same no matter who was involved.
The way this proponent has been treated (and is being treated) is
reprehensible, and I would feel the same contempt for whomever was
responsible.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:26:40 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
transparently proposed:

So mistreatment by the board of a proponent should be excused for what
reason? See recent antics by Kamens & Sill with respect to the Physics
proposal. Hypocrisy by the board in all its glory.

So, were you the one that approved the forgery by Skirvin into n.g.p
of the news.servers rfd?

This is not something anyone is "making up" this was abuse by the
board of a proponent that had a different view of how usenet should
work. That should in no way be a penalty in creation of a newsgroup.

The pissing and moaning about the name was answered by the proponent
and not one person felt obligated to acknowledge that he had addressed
the issue. I read it, he said the name was easily changed. Yet weeks
later board members were still castigating him for the name. Thomas
follow-up game seemed to piss him off. Skirvin with his "truthiness"
ticked him off.

Seems to me if the board was in the business of creating groups they
would have worked WITH the proponent rather than making the proponent
bow and scrape.

And now the proponent appears to be gone. I emailed the guy, mainly
cause I used to be an ABNSC reg myself and wanted to know what was up.
No response.

Did I mention that Skirvin poached him from alt.config and then was
less than helpful?


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Aratzio  <[email]> wrote:

So, what, we're supposed to make a list of things that the proponent
might not like, and then carefully avoid any discussion of those things,
no matter how relevant they might be?  That's completely stupid.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:30:23 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
wrote:

Actually, some are to make a point to a particular member of the board
aside from to demonstrate a shortcoming, some are made to just make
fun of individuals (board members or us plebe mere users) and some
really contain information or useful stuff.

Betcha the guy who got his Victory motorcycle group through doesn't
think too badly of either the board or the rest of us.  Hey,
reasonable happens.  Everyone did that one right from the proponent
right on through to approval, including us plebes.  I hope his group
is running well.  Anyone know?


author: Brian Mailman

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Steve Bonine wrote:

And how is your position of "anything anyone says to criticize the board
is noise" any different, qualitatively speaking? Seems to me the other
face of the same coin.

B/


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:30:23 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
wrote:

Point taken (on both counts)

I guess I'm just rising to the bait too much these days...


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:53:37 -0000, Jeremy Nixon <[email]>
transparently proposed:

Well as a matter of fact since the proponent is the "customer", yes,
you should. Not that the arrogance of your statement surprises me.

But you just go on ignoring the fact it was the big hot button the
board was pressing, intentionally. Not some minor issue with respect
to names or verbiage.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:00:26 -0600, Cyli <[email]> wrote in <[email]>:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.victory/about?hl=en

					Marty


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:00:26 -0600, Cyli <[email]> got double
secret probation because:

You were not supposed to notice Victory or the software proposals.
They were reasonable proposals treated as all reasonable proposals are
treated. Just like the physics proposal would have been if board
members could have been civil about the process.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:47:49 -0800, Brian Mailman
<[email]> got double secret probation because:

I still wanna know which moderator approved that post Skirven forged
in n.g.p?


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:49:50 -0700, Mag <[email]> wrote:

As a follow up to this....

Where would I ask a question relating to the 'rules' of Usenet in
reference to moderation and a future RFD for a new group?

I have tried asking in n.g.p but on both occasions my post was
rejected. I'm seeking a group where I will get a straightforward
answer from people who do not respond based purely on their own agenda
but just simply on the facts themselves.

Another dream?

The problem I have is not knowing who does and does not 'know their
stuff' and not understanding all the dynamics that go on in this
group, for example. I did spend a while lurking and reading the
various threads before I first posted here but that still didn't help
much

I tried doing the research myself but in all honesty, I don't have
enough  'in depth' understanding of Usenet and all it's rules to come
to any form of conclusive answer that I would be prepared to put
forward in a discussion


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:03:22 -0500, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
<[email]> wrote:

Nice.  Thanks.  What I skimmed of it looked on topic and good.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In article <[email]>, Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<[email]> wrote:

Do you know why Supernews isn't carrying it? Seems odd. Shaw in Canada
isn't carrying it either.

A ripping success from the Beight Mgmt Board, IOW.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Mag wrote:

Here in news.groups.

News.groups.proposals is for discussion of active group proposals only.
  "Active" means that an RFD has been published and no decision has been
rendered on whether to create the group.  General Usenet policy issues
are discussed here.

See http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=ngp:intro


author: Kathy Morgan

subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Mag <[email]> wrote:

The old advice was that you should spend at least 6 months or a year
lurking here before attempting to post.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
In article <090120072025499986%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>, Dave
Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

My mistake. While Shaw isn't carrying it, Supernews is.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:38:46 -0900, [email] (Kathy Morgan)
wrote:

I certainly did not heed that advice and probably would have done so
(though maybe not for quite as long as 6 months)  had it been given to
me in advance of my first post here. However, it wasn't given to me
and I posted so it's done now.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Kathy Morgan wrote:

But that was under the old system.

I remember over a year ago now, being reading many times how much more
simpler this new system is.

B/


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Mag <[email]> writes:

No, really, it's not.  You could stop posting, lurk for a few months to
learn more about the inhabitants of this newsgroup and about how Usenet
works in general, and then start posting again once you've gained some
more experience.  If, indeed, it was a mistake for you to start
posting your ideas here without spending some time getting up to
speed, then there's really no reason why you have to compound that
mistake by continuing to post here rather than quieting down for a
while and spending some time lurking.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Brian Mailman <[email]> wrote:

Yes, and I did not mean to imply that Mag should have followed that old
advice.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 02:38:58 +0000 (UTC), [email]
(Jonathan Kamens) wrote:

I could stop posting and wait six months before posting again but the
*only* reason I came to this group in the first place was because of
the discussions resulting from the RFD in relation to the replacement
of n-s-c, to which I was a long'ish time contributor and reader.

As that replacement group is something that is important to me I feel
I should have a say in what replaces it and as that can only take
place in a discussion being held here and in n-g-p then by the time
the six months is up the discussion will have already taken place and
possibly the group formed or the idea discarded without my input.

If you note from the original thread on this subject, I didn't jump in
right away but waited several days before posting my first comment so
I could get a feel, albeit only a brief one, for the group.

The fact that the discussion began to take a turn for the worse which
led me to believe that the formation of a replacement group might not
be something that would occur, led me to post in the hopes of reviving
the discussion and eventually leading to the replacement of a group
that I enjoyed participating in for several years.

Yes, I could have waited and maybe that would have been the prudent
thing to do but given the nature of the discussion on a subject I hold
close to my heart, I felt I should post anyhow and be damned, if that
was the case, for doing so.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Mag <[email]> wrote:

This is exactly why many of us wanted to created n.g.p. in the first
place.  n.g. is not a friendly place, and we do want people like you who
are interested in a specific proposal to be able to participate in the
discussions more comfortably.  Most people new to news.groups would not
have stuck with it as well as you have--kudos to you!


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
Mag wrote:

With the proponent gone, reviving the discussion won't help.


subject: Re: News server comparison group

text:
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:07:03 -0600, Steve Bonine <[email]>
wrote:

Unless, after further discussion, another proponent steps forward with
a better/different/modified set of ideas that would meet with more
support?


author: Pierre Mathieu

subject: nnspew complains about space

text:
I keep getting the following message from nnspew. I don't understand why
since there is plenty of space on the disk. Any ideas?

My crontab has the following nnspew entry:

2 3,9,15,21 * * * /usr/local/lib/nn/nnspew

----
Pierre Mathieu
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Canada
[email]


author: Max Heffler

subject: Re: nnspew complains about space

text:
pierre@sgl (Pierre Mathieu) writes:

There is plenty of space when you are looking at it, but when nnspew
kicks off, it creates some very large files which can chew up /tmp
quickly.  Look at the nnspew script...


subject: Re: nnspew complains about space

text:
I was also getting this message but cured by changing the nnspew script.
Using the -T option in sort, you can get the sort temporary files to hang out
anywhere you want.  Stick them somewhere where there's plenty space.