subject: Re: TEXT control

text:
Thanks Angel...
to move a control I know...

the other thing, now I know:

if i#{prop:type} = 17        ! type = text
   i#{prop:right} = 1
end

(I found answer in clarion's news from Argentina.)

Ernesto

"Angel L. Bermudez" <[email]> escribiï¿½ en el mensaje
news:3dcfa1ed$[email]...
is


subject: Hooda Gest

text:
Thanks for that last site link, have d/l'd netmedic, and per it, (which I
have to agree), im in need of more ram. I had logged onto the net, and it
showed all but 84 bits of ram being used. That will be step one to correct.
number 2 will be to dump some of this garbage on this system, and hopefully
still maintain a connection to the isp.
FOUND following; if it helps
modem on com 4
interrupt 11
address 2e8
uart ns16550anati1 255
ati2 ok
ati3 2.1.2.156.015e (updated today!)
ati3 supramax56ivoice pci
ati3 built jun30 1999 10:20:20
ati4 k56v.90 monopak dp
ati5 181
ati6 usa
ati7 dprev ba
ati7 v90spxram ver04
ati 7 v90octl ram ver 04
ati7 k56flex spx  ram ver47
ati7 k56flex ctl ram ver 47
at+fclass 0,1,8,80
xtra settings after driver update=e1???
hope this helps somewhat??
jake46


author: Hooda Gest

subject: Re: Hooda Gest

text:
jake46 <[email]> wrote in message
news:ImHg6.4$[email]...
correct.
hopefully

Please don't put a lot of faith in Netmedic, it makes assumptions based on
speculation based on guesses.

Your modem is the same as the one I have in my wife's computer. It worked
well in both 233MHz and 300MHz systems. The minimum requirement for the
modem is a 166MHz Pentium class CPU. I ran it with 64 Meg of memory and had
no trouble.

Not sure how it might help because I don't recall the original question.

That was installed by Netmedic. It just tells the mdoem to echo local
commands. Normally, the modem only echoes the first string sent by DUN and
that string includes "e0" which turns off local echo. No effect on
performance whatsoever.

Hooda


author: Art Jackson

subject: Re: Hooda Gest

text:
jake46 wrote:

FWIW, be prepared for sticker shock when you price memory SIMMS for
that computer. The older memory is running near $3/meg nowdays. :^(


subject: Re: Hooda Gest

text:
"Hooda Gest" <be@one_with.com> wrote in message
news:960qrl$s54$[email]...

jake46 <[email]> wrote in message
news:ImHg6.4$[email]...
correct.
hopefully

Please don't put a lot of faith in Netmedic, it makes assumptions based on
speculation based on guesses.

Understood. But at least it's giving me a starting point, and that I needed
along with all your info.

Your modem is the same as the one I have in my wife's computer. It worked
well in both 233MHz and 300MHz systems. The minimum requirement for the
modem is a 166MHz Pentium class CPU. I ran it with 64 Meg of memory and had
no trouble.

Right, want to up the machines memory to 64, and hold at that, went to
circuit city last nite, got priced at 42.00 per stick. (32 meg??) Told them
to hold off on ordering(??) it.
Going to go looking at my favorite recycling store, and see if they have
anything that will match.

Not sure how it might help because I don't recall the original question.

No problem, was trying to post what I had info for the modem from the
hardware section of this box.

That was installed by Netmedic. It just tells the mdoem to echo local
commands. Normally, the modem only echoes the first string sent by DUN and
that string includes "e0" which turns off local echo. No effect on
performance whatsoever.

Hooda

Thank you very much for all the help. Especially the link/s, as they have me
going all over the net, and I learn by reading/doing, vice the
doing/reading...
Great that you have this newsgroup, was going bonkers trying figure out
things... Learning.
jake46


subject: Re: Hooda Gest

text:
"Art Jackson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
jake46 wrote:
 FWIW, be prepared for sticker shock when you price memory SIMMS for
that computer. The older memory is running near $3/meg nowdays. :^(

Tell me, just went to circuit city last nite, and he wanted 42.00 for 32
megs. That good??? I thought it was very high. Oh well, thanks for info art.
jake46


subject: Re: Hooda Gest

text:
jake46 <[email]> wrote in message
news:M0Ug6.6$[email]...
I
it
on
needed

Yes, it can give you an idea but so can Sysmon which you will find in the
Windows folder.

had
them

You are buying SIMMS and these are now expensive. But $42 is not excessive
for 32Meg though a year ago, you might have paid ~$30

My personal opinion is that it will be worth it to upgrade the memory.

If you get computer shows in your area, try them. I have found very good
memory pricing at these shows. Check www.marketpro.com for a schedule and
whether they hit your area.

I remembered what you were talking about when I found the original thread.
More in response there.

me

We all learn better by doing. And we retain it best when we revisit lessons
regularly.

This is a good newsgroup with lots of good people helping others.

Hooda


subject: Re: Hooda Gest

text:
jake46 wrote:

That sounds low to me Jake. About 2 months ago, I priced a 32M EDO
SIMM and it was $85 + Tax. The price you were quoted sounds like a
retail price for a 32M pc-100 type memory. As Hooda suggested, you
can find better prices at the Computer Shows. You may look around
and see if you can find a place that sells used/refurbished computers.
They may have some used SIMMs at reasonable prices. Good luck.


author: Jordan K. Hubbard

subject: Is the A3000 Really Worth Buying? An honest question.

text:
First off, let me stave off the bad initial impression that subject
line is going to make by saying that this is NOT another Advocacy
article creaping into c.s.a.h, or an ANTI-Amiga flame (I have a hot-rodded
A500 that I'm very very happy with). I just wanted to clear up a few
points to my own satisfaction.

First off, to quote off the top of my head (meaning some of this may
be wrong and should be taken with a pinch of salt):

1. The A3000 comes (typically) with a 25Mhz 68030, 2MB Agnus (+PAL/NTSC),
   Enhanced Denise, 32 bit wide memory controller and built-in SCSI
   interface, to quote some of its major features.
   It provides several expansion slots, and has some internal room for 2
   additional drives.  2.0 and 1.3 are options. Amiga UX comes extra.
   Typical pricing is ~2.5K US Dollars in the U.S., though substantially
   higher (around DM7000 minimum) in Europe.

2. The A2000 comes with a 7Mhz 68000, 1MB Agnus (newer models) and normal
   Denise.  No special memory burst mode features, no clever 1.3/2.0 boot
   options.  Provides more slots than A3000 and is currently compatable
   with the video toaster and several other peripherals who's A3000
   compatability is currently in doubt (note: I'm not saying that things
   will stay that way; they can't.  But it's a current "feature" of the A2000
   that should be mentioned, to be fair).  Amiga UX is not yet announced.
   Typical pricing is DM1700 in Europe, unknown pricing in U.S
   (though with all the used ones flooding the market, it can't be much).

Now if we look at the cost of a 68030 upgrade (which have become much more
aggressively priced, thanks to the A3000) + Enhanced Denise + 2.0 ROMS
(which will probably be installed on a switcher board with the original 1.3
ROMS, by most folks) + SCSI Controller + Flicker fixer, you're probably
looking at another DM3000, at conservative estimate.  This brings the total
price up to around DM5000 (again, rounding up conservatively).  This is pretty
competitive, considering that the only feature you're really missing
out on is the special memory controller.  This will be offset somewhat, for
some people, by a 68000 fallback mode for unruly programs and additional
expansion capabilities.  Relative importance is hard to judge, but
I would think that it would be far easier to put up with a slower
memory bus than it would be to deal with an software failure rate of
as little as 10%, especially if one of the failing programs was
a former workhorse for you.

So, assuming that one has a couple of months more to wait for 2.0 and
ECS chips to become available for the A2000, can you really tell me
where the the major win lies in getting an A3000?  This goes double
in Europe, where prices are still rather hallucinogenic.

Again - please no flames, this isn't a "Oh Gee, Commodore has really
screwed us now" polemic on the merits of the A2000/A3000, this genuine
bewilderment about where my money is best spent.

!					Jordan

---
                        PCS Computer Systeme GmbH, Munich, Germany
        UUCP:           ..!pyramid!pcsbst!jkh
        EUNET:          ..!unido!pcsbst!jkh
        ARPA:           [email] or [email]


author: Ed Wilts

subject: Re: Is the A3000 Really Worth Buying? An honest question.

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:

Amiga UX is not available separately (yet).  I'm not even sure if it has been
announced as a separate product.  1.3 is available on Amiga 3000s sold today,
but may not be when 2.0 gets burned into ROM.  Two versions of the A3000 are
available, one at 16 MHz, one at 25 MHz.  Both 2 additional drive slots are
3.5".

AmigaBasic is not included with the A3000...

More slots but more demand to put stuff into slots.  The 3000 has on-board
expansion for SCSI, memory (18 MB total), and the Flicker-Fixer.  Basically,
the A3000 is MORE expandable than the 2000 DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU USE YOUR
EXPANSION SLOTS FOR.  The 2000 has 1 extra 3.5" bay and 1 extra 5.25" bay; the
A3000 has 2 extra 3.5" bays.  The 2000 is a big winner for Bridgeboard slots.
You may also consider the A3000T for expandibility.

It's a current "BUG" in the Toaster.  They violated board layout specs.

You also haven't allowed for the limitation of chip ram in the 2000.  The A3000
allows for up to 2MB of chip; the A2000 for 1.  And, more important for many
users, you have hardware support from a single vendor in your A3000 solution.,
To get a comparable A2000 upgraded system at competitive pricing (which seems
to be a primary concern of yours), you're most likely looking at least 3 or 4
vendors.  If you end up with a hardware problem, you're going to have fun...
You also can't price out either the ECS upgrade, nor the 2.0 upgrade, since
neither is available yet.  On the other hand, you could wait a few months until
both of those are standard in 2000-based systems.

Note that all A3000 fast memory is 32-bit memory; on the A2000, you will have
some 16-bit on-board memory,.

As for software compatibility, I have found VERY FEW programs that don't work
for me.  My big "workhorse" was Dr.T's KCS, and the upgrade for that arrived
last week.  Commodore is to be commended on their efforts with 2.0.  I've only
booted 1.3 for testing since I got my Amiga A3000 with 2.02 in March.  All my
"production" work is under 2.0.


author: Dave Haynie

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:

Depending on how you add all that stuff, there's a good chance the A2000 will
no longer have more slots, other than the PC Bus slots.  With a SCSI controller,
flickerFixer, and accelerator board, you can easily occupy one Zorro II slot,
the video slot, and the Coprocessor slot.  That leaves four Amiga slots and
four PC slots (with an overlap of two) free.  The A3000 with have its
Coprocessor slot, four Amiga slots with two PC and one video in-lines free.
You might be able to get an all-in-one accelerator/SCSI board and bring up the
A2000 to five free slots, though I don't if that's the cheapest route.

You're also missing out on 32 bit expansion slots, the 32 bit Coprocessor slot,
32 bit Chip memory, 32 bit SCSI, and 18MB total expansion.  Actually, the
memory controller is the least of what you're missing.  Some accelerator boards
have burst mode memory too.  I think the new GVP board will allow up to 16MB
of 32 bit wide memory to be plugged in (not sure), most stop at 4MB-8MB.  No
accelerator board can give you 32 bit wide Chip RAM.  No accelerator board can
give you 32 bit wide SCSI, which basically gives you most of your 68030 free
during hard disk transfers (other SCSI devices can eat from 1/2 to all of your
68030 time, even at moderate transfer rates).  Though 32 bit RAM cards are not
out yet, they can expansion the A3000 to hundreds of megabytes of RAM, if
that's something of interest to you.  Or fast 32 bit peripherals, another thing
you can't get on your A2000.

The question is really one each person has to answer for him or herself.  You
need to think of what you're going to put into your "free" slots.  An empty
slot buys you nothing if it never gets filled.  A fully expanded A2000 may have
lots of empty slots if done carefully, but an A3000 comes pretty close, and
the slots that are free are far more useful on the A3000 if you're looking to
the future.

The main advantage of an enhanced A2000 system is that you can buy it in
pieces: A2000 today, then the hard drive, then an accelerator, then the
flickerFixer, etc.  The A3000 comes complete, but if you can't afford
that, you'll have to wait with no computer while you save, rather than
gradually easing into the computer system you want.


author: rory toma

text:
One thing the 2000 doesn't have, is a 32-bit cpu slot. For about
$700-$1000 US, you can easily expand to a 68040. For a 2000, it'll cost
about $3000. You'll notice the bus speed difference whenan '040 is put
in.

rory


author: etj90 (Khaos - the Demon in the Machine

text:
In <[email]> [email] (Ed Wilts) writes:

BZZZT !!! Now CSA are doing a board for the 500/2000 that gives 2 Meg Chip RAM !!!


author: Tom Sarver

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (rory toma) writes:

In addition to above, I'm willing to pay for the 32-bit bus all around.
The only 16-bit bus in an A3000 connects the custom chips to stuff (chip
memory, I/O, etc.).  Conversely, the only 32-bit bus on an A2000 is
between the 68030 and its 32-bit RAM.

Tell me that don't make a big difference.  I'm also willing to buy into
a platform (A3000) which was built to run Unix.  I'm not saying an A2000
CAN'T run Unix, but you might have a bit more difficult time doing it.

Yo,
--Tom


author: Edward Vincent Chadez

text:
In article <[email]> etj90 (Khaos - the Demon in the Machine) writes:

               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does anyone else have any details on this?  Especially:  is it intended to
work either with or without CSA MMR??

Thanks in advance.
Ed


author: Ferenc Szabo

text:
C

I've been an Atari user since '85 (doing 95% music) so forgive me if my question
is naive. I was at a friends house last week and was totally blown away by the
animation software on an old 1000 model.
Sounds corny, but I've seen my new calling in life and it is animation!

Question: As a first time user would it be better for me to buy an Amiga 500
(I've seen complete used systems for $600 Canadian) or will I appreciate the
enormous jump in power to an '030 at 25MHZ?  The money isn't my biggest concern
(well it's a big one alright) but I was thinking this:
  If I got an el-cheapo system now and then in a few months or a year I would
really know what I want (peripherals etc).  Then by that time something new
would be out (amiga 4000?) that would be the obvious high end system to buy.

I would still keep my ST for Notator, WP, DTP.

   ferenc        email prefered but I'll try to remember to call up this nsgrp.

hey 07, you out there?     32

B

Summary:
Expires:
References: <[email]> <[email]> <[email]>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Inter/Access Artists' Centre Toronto
Keywords:


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Tom Sarver) writes:

It does, especially for UNIX.  If your just run a simple CPU benchmark, the
A3000 without DRAM burst on and an A2500/30 should be the same.  However,
the CPU is the easy part.  UNIX tends to rely pretty heavily on hard disk
bandwidth.  The A3000's disk DMA bandwidth is around 5x that of the A2500/30.
Which means the CPU still gets to do lots of work, even when you're taking
page faults.  Also, UNIX's X windows is all CPU driven.  The A3000's CPU has
twice the bandwidth to Chip RAM that the A2500/30 does.  So there are definite
differences.

Strangely enough, the A2500 came into existence based on a desire to run UNIX,
even though it managed to essentially get replaced a couple of times before
UNIX was done.

When the A500 was finished, Bob Welland, the guy behind the A500/A2000 Gary
chip and the Gary/Fat Agnus architecture, went looking for a new project.  He
and George Robbins (the other 1/2 of the A500 systems team) had previously been
working on the C900, a Z8000-based UNIX system that was cancelled when C=
bought Amiga.  Anyway, Bob wanted UNIX on the Amiga.  So he started to play
around with 68020s and custom MMU designs.  He actually came up with an MMU
and cache chip set that looked strangely like a 68040 when all put together.
However, by then the 68851 was available, so he started building a 68020 proto
board based on that MMU.  About that time, I got done with A2000 stuff and came
along to help out with the 68020 project, the A2620.  A few months later, Bob
left and I ultimately finished up the A2620, and later whipped up the A2630.

So, while not as ideal for UNIX as an A3000, these A2500 systems were designed
with UNIX in mind.  The Amiga will handle UNIX better than most personal
computers because it was designed with multitasking in mind, so things are DMA
and interrupt driven rather than PIO and polled.


author: david r watters

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Dave Haynie) writes:

.
.
Interesting, behind the scenes info deleted. (How about some more?!)
.
.

Which leads to another important question.  While the A3000 is a _great_ unix
platform, How well will the A2500/30 do with Unix.  Can you give any info on
if this will finally come to be, and what all will be involved (hardware/cost)?

Rephrased, if you have a A2500/30 and would like to do Unix, for school, work,
and fun, will it be nice (ie. not that bad), or should you regroup and get
an A3000architecture machine?

I think we should call to votes a new newsgroup called:
Comp.Sys.Amiga.Ask_Dave_Haynie!

  ///\ _   '_/
\X//_/(/|//(/


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (david r watters) writes:

The A2500/30 will run CPU intensive stuff nearly as fast as the A3000.  The
two main problems are disk and memory.  Disk speed will be almost as fast,
but the system throughput during disk activity will be much less.  Still better
than UNIX on most PClones or Macs, but if you're paging heavily, you'll notice
the difference.  The other problem is that the A2630 board is limited to 4MB
of 32 bit wide RAM on-board, and there are currently no daughterboards on the
market.  UNIX tends to be memory hungry, so a 4MB system will run slower than
an 8MB system, it'll require more paging.

Uh, maybe not...


author: Keith Hanlan

subject: Where are the A2630 daughterboards? (was Re: Is the A3000 Really ...)

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Dave Haynie) writes:

	So, any rumours of a daughterboard for the A2630? There is certainly
	a few of them out there... [aren't there?] Are there any manufacturers
	skeptical of the potential market that I could lean on?

	How difficult would it be to build? Is it something that requires a
	lot of additional logic or is it relatively simple?

	Help me put my mind at ease.

Happy owner of a A2630,
Keith Hanlan  [email]  Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada 613-765-4645


author: Randell Jesup

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Dave Haynie) writes:

	An example: when playing with the ST1480N (400+MB 4400 rpm drive),
we found that Diskspeed said 1.5 MB/s for the center of the disk on an
A2500/030 plus 2091, and said 1.7 MB/s for an A3000.  That was the first
time I had noticed a difference of that sort.  (BTW, that drive does 2MB/s
on the outer tracks.)  Note: this was a signifigantly non-scientific test.


author: Keith Alan Campbell

subject: Re: Where are the A2630 daughterboards? (was Re: Is the A3000 Really ...)

text:
I have spoken to a couple of guys who are designing just such a card and will be
trying to license its production before long.

Don Kennedy
Vision Quest Systems


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Keith Hanlan) writes:

None that I know of.  Not that I'm one to spread rumors.

It's basically just a generic 25MHz 68030 bus.  You need a couple of extra
signals, nothing that would phase anyone who's comfortable with the 68030 in
the first place.


author: meieng

subject: Help with WFW and MS network

text:
Need help with WFW and Microsfot network - woudl like to be able to have
workstation log in automatically then run a program.

problem is with login - user must type username and password.

Anybody know a easy way around this?  I tried
NET START
NET START FULL
etc. from DOS and most require the user typing a password.
I also tried to:
net start full < pass.dat

where pass.dat had the password.  Anybody have any ideas?

Mark H.

[email]  or [email]


author: Chris

subject: FolderItems

text:
Hi,

I use this code to view the contents of the folder where my app is:

dim i, n as integer
dim f as folderItem
f = GetFolderItem("")
n = f.count
If n > 0 then
For i = 1 to n
ListBox1.addrow f.item(i).name
Next
End if

But how would I list the items in the same folder but with a specific file
type?

Thanks :-)

-------------------------
Chris Willis
[email]
-------------------------


author: Steve Evans Personal

subject: Re: FolderItems

text:
in article [email], Chris at
[email] wrote on 8/4/01 10:06 pm:

try this:

  dim i, n as integer
  dim f as folderItem
  dim type as string

  type="ttro"

  f = GetFolderItem("")
  n = f.count
  If n > 0 then
    For i = 1 to n
      if f.item(i).mactype=type then
        ListBox1.addrow f.item(i).name
      end if
    Next
  End if


author: Thomas Reed

subject: Re: FolderItems

text:
In article <[email]>, Chris
<[email]> wrote:

Change this to:

For i = 1 to n
  if f.item(i).MacType = '****' then
    ListBox1.addrow f.item(i).name
  end if
Next

... where you replace **** with the type you're interested in.


author: me

subject: Real time clock/temp

text:
I'm looking to hook a real time clock and temp sensor to my 8 bit... any
suggestions?


subject: Re: Real time clock/temp

text:
I've decided to use the LM70 for the temp reader which is an SPI/MICROWIRE
interface which only uses 2 io lines and is easy to use with the js ports.
I was looking at an lm334 to use with the pot ports, but would rather go
digital.  I will probably get a clock chip which works the same way as I
need real time vs. pulses, in case the computer decides to reboot.  I really
like using the 8 bits for real world control and they offer a great
alternative to basic stamps and microcontrollers.  Thanks for all the great
input.


author: John Hardie

subject: Re: Real time clock/temp

text:
You could always pick up an Atarilab set from B&C Computervisions.
They're cheap and one comes with a light sensor while the other comes
with a Temperature sensor.

John

On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:51:26 GMT, "me" <[email]> wrote:


author: Rick Cortese

subject: Re: Real time clock/temp

text:
Depending on how hard you want to do it.

The Atari's paddle controllers are resistive in nature. If you don't need a
lot of resolution less then 7 bits, you could just use them with a
thermistor. IIRC, most thermistors available at places like Radio Shack are
~4k-7k. What you can do is either wire them in series with another resistor
to get the reading on scale or just buy ~10 of them and wire them in series.

There is a RTC for the Atari, it is called RTime. Not a lot of them around,
so you may have trouble finding one at a good price.

There are other ways of doing it. Been a long while since I used them, but
there were CMOS divide by 3600 counters available way back when in 8 pin DIP
packages. Line frequency stepped down via a transformer/3600 => a pulse a
minute which would be excellent for to sync an Atari. Not to fast or too
slow.

"me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:i_r_5.455963$[email]...


subject: Re: Real time clock/temp

text:
"me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:NmM_5.457440$[email]...
really
great

Just a BTW comment. TI and several other manufacturers make  serial ADC
chips. I'm familiar with the 334, used it in several designs.

I frequently ran into problems driving things directly from the J/S ports,
but have had excellent results adding a 2nd PIA chip and driving them off
that. Probably won't be necessary in temp sensing unless you are using it to
control a nuclear reactor or something.<grin>


author: Greg Menke

subject: Re: Real time clock/temp

text:
If using an Atari with the bus interface, an enterprising user could
interface a standard RTC device to the address/data bus, though I
imagine that goes quite a bit beyond what the poster was looking to
do.  To stretch the point a little further, the same standard RTC
chips could be interfaced via the joystick ports.

http://www.bgmicro.com

usually has something interesting along those lines...

Gregm


author: Krishnakumar B

subject: Behaviour of Help-mode

text:
Hi,

Is there a way to force Emacs to make the *Help* window the active one,
when entering help-mode (by moving the cursor to that window) and closing
the window when I press q ? I frequently see the value or documentation of
an item and would like to get rid of the window as soon as I am done. Now I
have to switch to the *Help* window and then press q to exit.


author: Heinz Rommerskirchen

subject: Re: Behaviour of Help-mode

text:
Krishnakumar B <[email]> writes:

Simply press 'C-x 1'. The help window will be closed and the '*Help*'
buffer vanishes somewhere deep down in the stack of buffers.


subject: Re: Behaviour of Help-mode

text:
On Thursday, 26 September 2002, Heinz Rommerskirchen wrote:

Right that would be useful if I want to only close the Help buffer.
Frequently I also need to follow some other cross-reference to display
documentation of that cross-reference.

-kitty.


author: [redacted]

subject: 865PERL will not Shutdown

text:
I have an Intel 865PERL and the board will not shut down. Pushing the
power button causes the system to reboot. Pushing the reset button also
causes the system to reboot (as it should). Choosing "shutdown" from
Windows reboots the system, but this also happens when the system is
not in Windows.

My dad insists that the pins for the power and reset buttons are
correct via the motherboard manual diagram.

Is there anything else that would cause this?

R.


author: Brownz (mobile

subject: Re: 865PERL will not Shutdown

text:
[email] wrote:

I guess you've trawled :

http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/D865PERL/

What OS is it ? How is your power management configured ?


author: Compfix

subject: Re: 865PERL will not Shutdown

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I would recheck the pins are connected correctly, it may be that power and
ground are reversed.

On this 865 perll board:
Power switch connectors are pins 6 and 8 with 8 being ground.  Reset is pins
5 and 7 with 5 being ground

The pin out of the header is below
X    9
8    7
6    5
4    3
2    1

Hope this helps


author: Gelonida N

subject: import packet.module without importing packet.__init__ ?

text:
Hi,

I am little shaky with how exactly python imports packages / modules etc.

Is it possible to import a module from a packet without importing its
__init__.py ?

Full example:
==============

# application.py ---------------------
print "starting application"
import mypacket.module1

# mypacket.__init__.py ---------------------
print "importing __init__"

# mypacket.module1.py ---------------------
print "importing module1"

The output, that I get with python 2.6 is
$ python application.py

Under certain circumstances I'd like to avoid the implicit import
of __init__.py

Due to other constrains of my project I am obliged to have a
non empty __init__.py


author: Steven D'Aprano

subject: Re: import packet.module without importing packet.__init__ ?

text:
Gelonida N wrote:

Untested, but I think so. But you shouldn't. The solution (if it does work,
as I said I haven't tested it) is a hack.

Suppose you have a library like this:

modules/
+-- spam.py
+-- ham.py
+-- package/
    +-- __init__.py
    +-- cheese.py

The directory "modules" is in your Python path, so you can "import spam"
or "import package". The trick is to add "modules/package" to the Python
path so that "import cheese" will find cheese.py directly.

You can do that by manipulating sys.path, or by setting the environment
variable PYTHONPATH.

Another hack would be to add a hard link to the top level:

modules/
+-- spam.py
+-- ham.py
+-- cheese.py <------------+
+-- package/               |
    +-- __init__.py        |
    +-- cheese.py <--------+

This is not a copy, it is a hard link: the same file appears in literally
two places. (But note that not all file systems support hard linking.) Soft
links or shortcuts might also work. Now you can "import cheese".

But generally, you should design your package so that it doesn't matter
whether or not __init__.py is imported first. I see three reasnable
situations:

(1) package.cheese should rely on package, in which case it requires
package.__init__ to be imported first. (Sometimes I put code common to the
entire package in __init__.py.)

(2) Just don't worry about the fact that package.__init__ gets imported
first. Do you have any idea how many modules get imported when Python
starts up? What's one more?

(3) If cheese.py truly is independent of package, then it shouldn't be part
of package. Just make it a stand alone module outside the package
directory, and be done. (Your installer can still treat cheese.py as a
dependency of package, and ensure that they are both installed.)

--
Steven


text:
Hi Steven,

Thanks for your answer.

On 09/11/2011 02:56 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
. . .
. . .

Yes it's a hack, but good to know it exists. Just in case.

As you said: Hard links would be a little annoying on some file systems.

There's still something, that I am philosophycally missing.

Wy do I have to import the entire tree if I'm just interested in a leave.

this is not always desired.

let's imagine

kitchen.__init__
kitchen.knives
kitchen.pans
kitchen.pots

or alternatively
os
os.path
os.wheteverelse

Let's assume, that  kitchen/__init__.py is importing the sub modules
knives, pans and pots

then I understand of course, that the next lines would import the entire
kitchen

But if I know that I just want to boil some eggs I would really
appreciate if I could just say

without having the side effect of getting pans and knives also loaded
into memory.

Moving pots out into a separate package doesn't really feel right.
I agree, that a 10 level deep package tree is not really desirable, but
having every package flat on the top level doesn't sound that good either.

So it seems, that developers of huge packages shouldn't really do a lot
in __init__.py.

Otherwise any user would always 'suck in' the entiry package with all
its sub modules.

To give more details about why I asked this question:

The real setup looks a little different and there are some issues, that
I am having:

One package in question is a huge django application.

Within the package is one module defining some constants and tiny
functions, which I would like to reuse from some command line tools,
which should start quickly without loading any of the django specific
modules. (the startup penalty and the memory overhead would be noticable)

I am using rpc4django, which expects, that __init__.py of the django
application exports some all rpc functions
which will basically import 95% of the django application and the entire
django frame work (none of which were required by my command tool,
support utility for this application)

I could of course create a separate package just for this tiny sub
module, but somehow it doesn't feel right to me.

The second issue is a little more complicated. basically I end up having
circular dependencies.

as I have two applications that  send a few customs django signals forth
an back.

If I wouldn't import __init__.py or if I moved the declaration of the
signals into a third package then circular dependencies would disappear.

So it seems, that if I can't avoid loading __init__.py in
a nice way I have to create  one or two tiny packages outside of my
django application,
or change the python path  as you proposed (increases of course name
space clashes)

or to find a way for rpc4django of loading / locating the rpc functions
without putting them  in __init__.py change the rpc functions such, that
they will only import the other sub modules when being called the first
time (proxies / delayed imports, . . .)


text:
Gelonida N wrote:

You don't. Python just imports the branches leading to the leaf, not the
entire tree.

[...]

In your example, you stated that kitchen explicitly imports kitchen.pans and
kitchen.knives. So in that case, take it up with the designer of the
kitchen package -- it was his decision to import them, just like he
imported re and math and httplib. (For example.)

If kitchen is your package, then it is your choice: if you want to have
control over when sub-packages get imported, then don't automatically
import them in __init__.py. If you want them to be automatically imported,
like os and os.path, then automatically import them. If you don't, don't.

But note that you cannot expect to import kitchen.pot without importing
kitchen first.

Why should it be a package? Just make it a stand-alone module.

Or use path manipulation from your command line tool to import it on its
own. It might be somewhat of a hack, but if need to do it, do so.

Or do something like this:

my_app/
+--  __init__.py  # lightweight, nearly empty
+--  cmd_tools.py
+--  module1.py
+--  module2.py
+--  rpc/
     +-- __init__.py  # huge, imports my_app.module1, my_app.module2, etc.

then point rpc4django at my_app.rpc instead of my_app.

--
Steven


text:
Hi Steven,

Thanks again for your answer.

On 09/11/2011 06:51 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

Exactly. Thus my conclusion, that too many imports (just for commodity)
in __init__.py might not be such a good idea if one wants to allow
leaf-only imports.

Agreed. This is however my problem: Up to my understanding rpc4django
insists on putting code into __init__.py

True

Up to my knowledge rpc4django just imports all __inits__ of all django
applications to find look for functions with a certain decorator.

I'm not sure, whether django allows nested appllications, but this might
be a solution.


author: joris

subject: Re: Can hacking be justified?

text:
Thanks a lot for the support, maybe it should have been better to use the term
cracker... but as you said nobody actually uses the word cracker,

Joris

Barry Margolin wrote:


author: Yijia Sun

subject: [Q] How to setup restrictive finger service

text:
Hi, there:

Can any one tell me how to setup restrictive finger service system wise or
user bases...

TIA


author: Brad Knowles

subject: Re: [ntp:questions] Tiime Sync solution

text:
At 1:55 PM +0800 2005-05-30, Eric Liu wrote:

	With a decent NTP configuration, one millisecond should be easy.
In fact, it should be hard to be that bad.  On my PowerBook G3 laptop
running at 400MHz under MacOS X 10.3.9, using a selection of nearby
Internet time servers, across a wireless network connected to a
relatively slow ADSL line, I'm usually down in the low single-digit
*microsecond* region.  It is not unusual for people who have their
own GPS refclock to be less than a microsecond off.

	That shouldn't be a problem.  You'll want to see the
documentation to make sure that you configure it correctly, however.

	Start at <http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Main/DocumentationIndex>.
Initially, pay attention to the official NTP FAQ at
<http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-a-faq.htm> and the unofficial
community supported documentation at
<http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Support/WebHome>, and refer to the
complete official documentation at
<http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp/html/index.html> if you need
more detail.


author: Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder

subject: Re: [ntp:questions] Tiime Sync solution

text:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Clinging to sanity, Brad Knowles mumbled in his beard:

be 1ms

Hmmm. Eric: Scrap the '10ms or better is pure luck' - I see that my
server is below 5ms offset, with hand-picked off-site servers, this is
over a little used ADSL connection.

You sure?

    remote       refid     st t when poll reach   delay   offset jitter
==========================================================================
+130.60.75.75 130.149.17.8  2 u   85 1024  377   20.503    1.772   0.429
*130.60.75.72 130.149.17.8  2 u   26 1024  377   23.294    2.103   0.415
+130.60.7.44  130.60.7.51   3 u  121 1024  377   19.054   -7.424   0.390
 192.168.1.17 192.168.1.254 4 u   84 1024  377    0.627   -2.502   0.860

(and offset=-1.94 in ntpq -c rv)

I was quite sure that these numbers are ms and not µs - are you really
down at 0.00x here?

greetings
- -- vbi

- --
featured link: http://www.pool.ntp.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: get my key from http://fortytwo.ch/gpg/92082481

iKcEARECAGcFAkKcqftgGmh0dHA6Ly9mb3J0eXR3by5jaC9sZWdhbC9ncGcvZW1h
aWwuMjAwMjA4MjI/dmVyc2lvbj0xLjUmbWQ1c3VtPTVkZmY4NjhkMTE4NDMyNzYw
NzFiMjVlYjcwMDZkYTNlAAoJEIukMYvlp/fWTvEAmwVDJwsutMHBk13ps0eIesbk
1594AKCR/7zhZN3X+B/Pg/jsEEGT21agfw==
=V/dp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


author: John Pettitt

subject: Re: [ntp:questions] Tiime Sync solution

text:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote:

I'm getting low 100's of microseconds locally and between 300-500
microseconds accross a DSL link

jeeves# ntpq
ntpq> pe
    remote           refid    st t when poll reach delay offset jitter
==========================================================================
*GPS_NMEA(0)     .GPS.          0 l   19   64  377  0.000  0.046 0.038
- -solar.localnet  192.168.2.254  2 u    2  256  377  0.678 -0.153 0.504
+gatekeeper.no-s .GPS.          1 u  241  256  377  0.840  0.045 0.925
+john-desk-2.loc 192.168.2.254  2 u   25  256  377  0.335  0.198 0.579
- -skipjack.no-suc 64.142.103.194 2 u    1  256  377 11.669  0.293 6.094
 LOCAL(0)        73.78.73.84    5 l   27   64  377  0.000  0.000 0.002
ntpq>

gatekeepr and solar are soekris 4801's - slow 586 class FreeBSD boxes.
 john-desk-2 is a windows box on a gigabit land connection to jeeves
(the server).   skipjack lives in a server farm but still manages to
track the refclocks pretty well. This snapshot while a backup was
running which is why the server is 48 us away from the refclock.

Now if I could only figure out why two identical 4801''s on the same
switch have 160 us difference in round trip time ....

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCnLYvaVyA7PElsKkRAiQZAKD8Y0a0IZwTCRUhr/H102tATXWQYACeILDp
ebUAP2tI+elFPQ8/tmUjejg=
=xrZD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


author: David Woolley

subject: Re: [ntp:questions] Tiime Sync solution

text:
In article <[email]>,
Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder <[email]> wrote:

I suspect that this doesn't actually mean *time* synchronisation (i.e. both
frequency and phase matching UTC, and what NTP is designed for) but really
about measuring small time differences, i.e. the common free running
local clock case that seems the most common (mis)use of NTP.

9

This is not 1.772 ms offset from true.  It is 1.772 +/- 10.252 +/-
dispersion offset from the immediate upstream server.  One needs root
delay and root dispersion to work out the actual error bounds.


author: Bjorn Gabrielsson

subject: Re: [ntp:questions] Tiime Sync solution

text:
John Pettitt <[email]> writes:

This is from a tiny adsl connection.

     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
 LOCAL(0)        73.78.73.84      5 l   33   64  377    0.000    0.000   0.002
+                .PPS.            1 u  290 1024  377   11.568    0.111   0.280
-                .PPS.            1 u  246 1024  377   16.718    0.519   0.112
-                .PPS.            1 u  284 1024  377   21.166    0.253  38.112
+                .PPS.            1 u  237 1024  377   21.462    0.097   0.298
x                .PPS.            1 u  247 1024  377   20.407    1.662   0.140
+GPS_PALISADE(0) .GPS.            0 l   18   16  377    0.000   -0.001   0.002
*GPS_JUPITER(0)  .GPS.            0 l   23   64  377    0.000   -0.001   0.002


author: Jerry

subject: Re: Help w/FTP in Netscape

text:
[email] (Robert L Rast) wrote:

***
***
***
***
***
This is just a guess, but I would suspect that your software problem
is something related to the basic differences between Netscape and
Iexplore and how they handle FTP protocol.  One (excuse me but I do
get the two mixed up) uses the Sock4 proxy path to handle FTP, since
it doesn't handle PASV mode and the other uses a direct proxy of FTP.

To be sure, try IE and if it gets through, then check to see if your
system is using a Socks4 proxy configuration somewhere on it.
Otherwise you might try sweet talking NS into telling you what socket
they are routing there FTP stuff through.

signed Jerry


author: me

subject: getting rid of scientific notation on export

text:
Hi all,

The following query returns values in a field from the table
"DrillholeA_ASSAY".  Null values in that field are replaced with a value
of -9000.

AUOPT: IIf([DrillholeA_ASSAYS]![AU OZ/TON] Is
Null,-9000,[DrillholeA_ASSAYS]![AU OZ/TON])

When I export this query to .csv format, many of the values are
automatically converted to scientific notation.  I wish to avoid this
conversion to scientific notation and simply export the result with 3
decimal places of precision.  I understand from previous posts that using
the "Format" command may be a solution to this problem.  I am currently
struggling with implementing this command in this query.

Can someone suggest how I can modify this query to correctly implement
"Format" so that I get 3 decimal places of precision and *NO* scientific
notation in the resultant .csv file.  I still want to have the query check
for null values and replace those with -9000.

TIA

David Gaunt


author: Tom Karpf

subject: Re: getting rid of scientific notation on export

text:
AUOPT: Format(IIf([DrillholeA_ASSAYS]![AU OZ/TON] Is
Null,-9000,[DrillholeA_ASSAYS]![AU OZ/TON]),"0.000")

"me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:A7RE8.14202$[email]...


text:
"Tom Karpf" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ac0otk$lv9ib$[email]...

Thank you for the reply.

I put in the above change as you suggested, however I'm getting a "Undefined
function 'Format' in Expression" error message.  I thought that it was some
problem in the syntax, however I've been unable to find information on this
from Access' online documentation.

Any ideas?

TIA

->dg


text:
Go into your VBA editor and click on Tools, References.  You will probably
find one that starts 'Missing...'.  Once you fix that, Format (and Right,
Left, Mid, etc.) will work.

"me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:p8SE8.14211$[email]...
"Undefined
some
this


text:
Thank you again.

The query is now working as desired.  Isn't technology beautiful.....

->dg

"Tom Karpf" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ac0rd0$m19oh$[email]...


text:
Sometimes it's beautiful.  Other times I give serious thought to going back
to flipping burgers for a while.

"me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:o4TE8.14231$[email]...
probably
Right,


text:
"Tom Karpf" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ac0via$lg3sl$[email]...
back

agreed.

free burgers notwithstanding, i don't think anyone on this NG would disagree
with the fact that burger flippin' is a viable and noble alternative to
computer work. :-)

->dg


text:
"me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:HgUE8.14257$[email]...
disagree

If nothing else, it reduces the number of occasions when your brains ooze
out of your ears.

What the ^%$* is going on?  This piece of *&^%@ worked FINE yesterday!


subject: C++ declarations (arrays and pointers)

text:
i know that:

double *a[n]; is an array of n pointers

double (*b)[n]; is pointer to array of size n

but what is:

double ( *c[n] )( ); and

double ( *d( ) )[n];


author: James Kanze

subject: Re: C++ declarations (arrays and pointers)

text:
On Feb 18, 1:21 am, joeschmoe98 <[email]> wrote:

The original rule, in C, was that the declaration mimics use.
This ceased to be true with the introduction of typedef, and of
course, const, volatile and class types positively wreck havoc
with the philosophy.  But the fact remains that a C++
declaration reads a lot like an expression, with precedence,
which can be overridden by parentheses.  In the case of such
"type expressions", precedence is simple: operators to the right
always have precedence over those to the left, and on any given
side, the operator closest to the center has precedence over the
one further out.  The operators on the right may be "()"
(function) and "[]" (array).  So you get:

    double (*c[n])() ;

    c[n]                an array[n] of
    *c[n]               pointers to
    (*c[n])()           functions taking no arguments, returning
    double (*c[n])()    double

and

    double (*d())[n] ;

    d()                 a function taking no arguments, returning
    *d()                a pointer to
    (*d())[n]           an array[n] of
    double (*d())[n]    double

Note that it's generally best to avoid such complicated
declarations.  They're even harder to get right when you write
then than they are to read.


author: Sam

text:
joeschmoe98 writes:

That looks like a question on your homework, which you should try to figure
out on your own.


text: i just dont understand what the empty set of parenthesis are for


text: still confused, at least point me in the right direction. please


author: Mike Wahler

text:
"joeschmoe98" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~cs30x/rt_lt.rule.html

-Mike


author: Jeff Schwab

text:
joeschmoe98 wrote:

Please don't snip relevant context.

Empty parentheses in a declaration mean that the thing to their left is
a function.


text:
joeschmoe98 wrote:

When you post something new to a thread, please do not remove the
existing conversation.  If re-post your question, please include your
best guess at what the confusing expressions mean.


author: Joe DeBiso

subject: Re: PLEASE HELP! win95 -> SCO via tcp

text:
I'm doing this by using SCO NFS on the unix box running pcnfsd.
I'm using interdrive95 from FTP software on my Win95 PC's.  This
allows us
to see the unix boxes, use the printers and mount exsported file
systems.
Hope this helps.
Joe DeBiso
[email]


author: jim frost

subject: Re: WindozeNT will never be mainstream!

text:
[email] (Steve Mading) writes:

Multi-user systems differentiate between individual users, usually for
security and/or environment configuration.

Your C-64 doesn't know whether you're running it or your roommate is
running it; in contrast, a UNIX system has a login whereby you
identify yourself to the computer and it may treat you differently
than, say, the system administrator.

jim frost
[email]


author: Yves Parent

subject: Re: searching for the right dbm ...

text:
I know that you can distribute Access applications, but you will need
the developer's kit to distribute the runtime, which is not yet
available for Access 97, but is available for Access 7 and Access 2.  If
you need speed, Access is NOT the solution.  I've built applications
with it that were smaller than what you described, and I was not
impressed.  I would use Delphi if speed is important.  The database
engine is freely distributable but is not SQL based, but neither is
Access.


author: Robert Mobbs

subject: Freak-out! Sound on my SoundBlaster!

text:
When I cat a file > /dev/sound (or is it audio, I forget and I'm
not at the computer now) the file comes out all scratchy and fast-played,
like it was compressed or something.  I have tried remaking the device and
even recompiling the kernel (1.1.64) and I cannot make it GO AWAY.  Any
advice?

Thanks,
Robert Mobbs
[email]


author: Kevin Patrick Thibedeau

subject: Re: Freak-out! Sound on my SoundBlaster!

text:
Is the sound file a sun audio file?  It must have a .au extension to work
with a simple cat.  For something like a .wav file you need to get
another program.

Robert Mobbs ([email]) wrote:
: 	When I cat a file > /dev/sound (or is it audio, I forget and I'm
: not at the computer now) the file comes out all scratchy and fast-played,
: like it was compressed or something.  I have tried remaking the device and
: even recompiling the kernel (1.1.64) and I cannot make it GO AWAY.  Any
: advice?

: Thanks,
: Robert Mobbs
: [email]


author: Sang Y. Yum

subject: Re: Freak-out!  Sound on my SoundBlaster!

text:
In article [email], [email] (Kevin Patrick Thibedeau) writes:

Yes, indeed!  I finally configured my SoundBlaster 16 last night.
I tried to send audio files other than .au files to /dev/audio and
they came out "all scratchy and fast-played". :)

I promptly downloaded a bunch of sound-players (I like Sox and mp)
and was able to play most of samples sound files that came with SoundBlaster
installation diskettes.

Now, only if I could record the sound using microphone....  I tried
dd ds=8k count=4 < /dev/audio > sample.au as specified in Sound HOWTO
but it didn't record anything.  Hmmmm...

Sang

---
  |||   Sang Y. Yum                 | [email]
   v    AT&T Global Info. Solutions | [email]
 /\ /\  100 N. Sepulveda Blvd.      |
/// \\\ El Segundo, Calif. 90245    | Ph: (310) 524-7685  FAX: (310) 524-5515


author: Joe Sloan

text:
In article <[email]>,
Sang Y. Yum <[email]> wrote:

You need to use "xmix" or equivalent to set the input to "microphone"
and adjust the recording level. I too fought with this issue, and all
was resolved when I installed xmix...

I forget where I got it, but you can get a copy at

 wintermute.ucr.edu:/pub/linux/X/xmix-2.1.tar.gz

There may be a more recent version out there, but this works fine.

jjs


author: Nick Doulas

subject: object file information

text:
does anyone know of a program that provides information about the
symbol tables of an object file?  given an object file, i would like
to know which variables/functions it requires from other object files,
and which ones it makes available.  thanks.

nick


author: Roberto Salama

subject: Re: object file information

text:
Nick Doulas ([email]) wrote:
: does anyone know of a program that provides information about the
: symbol tables of an object file?  given an object file, i would like
: to know which variables/functions it requires from other object files,
: and which ones it makes available.  thanks.

: nick


author: Herbert Borsboom OPL.

subject: Re: object file information

text:
See a.out(4):

	man 4 a.out

See ar(1)

	man 1 ar

Jos Visser


author: Aaron Jackson

subject: Re: object file information

text:
Generally, I can use /bin/nm to find symbols in an object, but if its
a flow graph you're interested in, possbily you are looking for /bin/cflow.


author: Dan Pop

subject: Re: object file information

text:
In <[email]> [email] (Roberto Salama) writes:

Or have a look at nm(1) and see if you're happy with its output.

Dan


author: David Beasley

subject: FAQ: comp.ai.genetic part 1/6 (A Guide to Frequently Asked Questions)

text:
Archive-name:   ai-faq/genetic/part1
Last-Modified:  9/30/98
Issue:          6.3

				      The

				 Hitch-Hiker's

				    Guide to

			   Evolutionary Computation

			   (FAQ for comp.ai.genetic)

				   edited by

			       Joerg Heitkoetter
			     UUnet Deutschland GmbH
			      Emil-Figge-Str. 80
			   D-44227 Dortmund, Germany
			       <[email]>
			     or <[email]>

				      and

				 David Beasley
			      Deloitte Consulting
			      20 Manvers Street,
			 Bath, United Kingdom BA1 1PX
			    <[email]>

				    PLEASE:
	       Search this document first if you have a question
				      and
     If someone posts a question to the newsgroup which is answered in here
		    DON'T POST THE ANSWER TO THE NEWSGROUP:
			  POINT THE ASKER TO THIS FAQ
				  and finally

				  DON'T PANIC!

     Copyright  (c)  1993-1998 by Joerg Heitkoetter and David Beasley, all
			       rights reserved.

     This FAQ may be posted to any USENET newsgroup, on-line  service,  or
     BBS  as  long  as  it  is  posted  in  its entirety and includes this
     copyright statement.  This FAQ may not be distributed  for  financial
     gain.   This  FAQ  may  not  be included in commercial collections or
     compilations without express permission from the author.

     FAQ  /F-A-Q/ or /fak/ [USENET] n.  1. A  Frequently  Asked  Question.
	  2.  A  compendium  of  accumulated  lore, posted periodically to
	  high-volume  newsgroups  in  an  attempt   to   forestall   such
	  questions.   Some  people  prefer  the term `FAQ list' or `FAQL'
	  /fa'kl/, reserving `FAQ' for sense 1.

     RTFAQ
	  /R-T-F-A-Q/ [USENET: primarily written, by  analogy  with  RTFM]
	  imp. Abbrev. for `Read the FAQ!', an exhortation that the person
	  addressed ought to read the newsgroup's FAQ list before  posting
	  questions.
     RTFM /R-T-F-M/ [UNIX] imp. Acronym for `Read The Fucking Manual'.  1.
	  Used by gurus to brush off questions they  consider  trivial  or
	  annoying.   Compare Don't do that, then!  2. Used when reporting
	  a problem to  indicate  that  you  aren't  just  asking  out  of
	  randomness.  "No, I can't figure out how to interface UNIX to my
	  toaster, and yes, I have RTFM."  Unlike sense  1,  this  use  is
	  considered polite. ...

		 --- "The on-line hacker Jargon File, version 3.0, 29 July
								     1993"

PREFACE
     This guide is intended to help, provide basic information, and  serve
     as a first straw for individuals, i.e.  uninitiated hitch-hikers, who
     are stranded in the mindboggling universe of Evolutionary Computation
     (EC);  that  in  turn  is  only  a  small  footpath  to  an even more
     mindboggling scientific universe, that, incorporating Fuzzy  Systems,
     and   Artificial   Neural  Networks,  is  sometimes  referred  to  as
     Computational Intelligence (CI); that in turn is only part of an even
     more  advanced scientific universe of mindparalysing complexity, that
     incorporating Artificial Life, Fractal Geometry,  and  other  Complex
     Systems  Sciences might someday be referred to as Natural Computation
     (NC).

     Over the course of the past  years,  GLOBAL  OPTIMIZATION  algorithms
     imitating  certain  principles of nature have proved their usefulness
     in various domains of  applications.  Especially  worth  copying  are
     those  principles  where  nature  has  found  "stable  islands"  in a
     "turbulent ocean" of solution possibilities. Such  phenomena  can  be
     found  in annealing processes, central nervous systems and biological
     EVOLUTION, which in turn have  lead  to  the  following  OPTIMIZATION
     methods:  Simulated Annealing (SA), Artificial Neural Networks (ANNs)
     and the field of Evolutionary Computation (EC).

     EC may currently be characterized by the following pathways:  Genetic
     Algorithms  (GA), Evolutionary Programming (EP), Evolution Strategies
     (ES), Classifier Systems (CFS), Genetic Programming (GP), and several
     other  problem  solving  strategies,  that  are based upon biological
     observations, that date back to Charles Darwin's discoveries  in  the
     19th  century: the means of natural selection and the survival of the
     fittest, and theories of evolution.  The inspired algorithms are thus
     termed Evolutionary Algorithms (EA).

     Moreover, this guide is intended to help those who are just beginning
     to read the comp.ai.genetic newsgroup, and those  who  are  new  "on"
     USENET.  It shall help to avoid lengthy discussions of questions that
     usually arise for beginners of one or the other kind, and  which  are
     boring to read again and again by comp.ai.genetic "old-timers."

     You  will  see  this  guide  popping  up  periodically  in the Usenet
     newsgroup comp.ai.genetic (and also comp.answers , and news.answers ,
     where it should be locatable at any time).

ORIGIN
     This guide was produced by Joerg Heitkoetter (known as Joke) in early
     1993, using material from many sources (see Acknowledgements ), mixed
     with  his  own brand of humour. Towards the end of 1993, Joerg handed
     over editorial responsibility to David Beasley . He  reorganised  the
     guide  in  various  ways,  and  generally attempted to inject his own
     brand of orderliness. Thus, any jokes  are  the  work  of  Joke.  The
     mundane bits are David's responsibility.

     The  guide  is  kept up to date, as far as possible, and new versions
     are issued several times a  year.  However,  we  do  rely  on  useful
     information  being  sent  to  us  for inclusion in the guide (we dont
     always  have  time  to   read   comp.ai.genetic   ,   for   example).
     Contributions,  additions,  corrections,  cash,  etc.  are  therefore
     always welcome.  Send e-mail to the address at the beginning  of  the
     guide.

DISCLAIMER
     This periodic posting is not meant to discuss any topic exhaustively,
     but should be thought of as a list of  reference  pointers,  instead.
     This  posting is provided on an "as is" basis, NO WARRANTY whatsoever
     is expressed or implied, especially, NO WARRANTY that the information
     contained  herein  is  up-to-date,  correct  or  useful  in  any way,
     although all this is intended.

     Moreover, please note that  the  opinions  expressed  herein  do  not
     necessarily  reflect those of the editors' institutions or employers,
     neither as a whole, nor in part. They are just  the  amalgamation  of
     the  editors'  collections  of  ideas, and contributions gleaned from
     other sources.

     NOTE: some portions of this otherwise rather dry guide  are  intended
     to  be  satirical.   If you do not recognize it as such, consult your
     local doctor or a professional comedian.

HOW TO USE THIS GUIDE
 HITCH-HIKING THE FAQNIVERSE
     This guide is big. Really big. You just  won't  believe  how  hugely,
     vastly, mindbogglingly big it is. That's why it has been split into a
     "trilogy" -- which, like all successful trilogies, eventually ends up
     consisting of more than three parts.

 Searching for answers
     To  find  the answer of question number x, just search for the string
     "Qx:". (So the answer to question 42 is at "Q42:"!)

 What does [xxxx99] mean?
     Some books are referenced again and again, that's why they have  this
     kind of "tag", that an experienced hitch-hiker will search for in the
     list of books (see Q10 and Q12 and  other  places)  to  dissolve  the
     riddle.  Here,  they have a ":" appended, thus you can search for the
     string "[ICGA85]:" for example.

 Why all this UPPERCASING in running text?
     Words written  in  all  uppercase  letters  are  cross-references  to
     entries  in  the Glossary (see Q99). Again, they have a ":" appended,
     thus if you find, say  EVOLUTION,  you  can  search  for  the  string
     "EVOLUTION:" in the Glossary.

 FTP and HTTP naming conventions
     A  file  available  on an FTP server will be specified as: <ftp-site-
     name>/<the-complete-filename> So for example, the file bar.tar.gz  in
     the  directory  /pub/foo  on the ftp server ftp.certain.site would be
     specified as: ftp.certain.site/pub/foo/bar.tar.gz

     A specification  ending  with  a  "/"  is  a  reference  to  a  whole
     directory, e.g.  ftp.certain.site/pub/foo/

     HTTP  files  are  specified  in  a  similar way, but with the prefix:
     http://

WHERE TO FIND THIS GUIDE
     Between postings to comp.ai.genetic  , this FAQ is available  on  the
     World  Wide  Web.   Get  it  from  any  ENCORE  site (See Q15.3). The
     following Encore sites can be accessed by HTTP. If you  use  the  one
     closest to you, you should get the best speed of service.
     o  EUnet            Deutschland            GmbH            (Germany):
	http://research.de.uu.net:8080/encore/www/

	o       The       University       of        Girona        (Spain)
	http://gnomics.udg.es/~encore/www/

	o       The       University       of       Granada       (Spain):
	http://krypton.ugr.es/~encore/www/

	o       The       University       of       Oviedo        (Spain):
	http://www.etsimo.uniovi.es/ftp/pub/EC/FAQ/www/

	o        The       University       of       Birmingham       (UK)
	http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/Mirrors/ftp.de.uu.net/EC/clife/www/

	o        The        Santa        Fe        Institute        (USA):
	http://alife.santafe.edu/~joke/encore/www/

	o     Purdue     University,    West    Lafayette,    IN    (USA):
	http://www.cs.purdue.edu/coast/archive/clife/FAQ/www/

	o     The     Chinese      University      of      Hong      Kong:
	http://www.cs.cuhk.hk/pub/EC/FAQ/www/top.htm

     Other  Encore  sites can be accessed by FTP, and the FAQ can be found
     in the file FAQ/www/top.htm or something similar.  The  FAQ  is  also
     available    in    plain    text   format   on   Encore,   and   from
     rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/ai-faq/genetic/  as  the  files:
     part1  to  part6. The FAQ may also be retrieved by e-mail from <mail-
     [email]>. Send a message to the mail-server  with  "help"
     and "index" in the body on separate lines for more information.

     A  PostScript  version  is  also  available.  This looks really crisp
     (using boldface, italics, etc.),  and  is  available  for  those  who
     prefer  offline reading.  Get it from Encore in file FAQ/hhgtec.ps.gz
     (the plain text versions are in the same directory too).

	  "As a net is made up of a series of ties, so everything in  this
       world is connected by a series of ties.  If anyone thinks  that the
     mesh of a net is an independent, isolated thing, he is  mistaken.  It
      is called a net because it is made up of a series  of interconnected
				   meshes, and each mesh has its place and
			      responsibility in relation to other meshes."

								--- Buddha

 Referencing this Guide
     If you want to reference this guide it should look like:

     Heitkoetter, Joerg and  Beasley,  David,  eds.   (1998)  "The  Hitch-
     Hiker's Guide to Evolutionary Computation: A list of Frequently Asked
     Questions (FAQ)", USENET: comp.ai.genetic.  Available  via  anonymous
     FTP  from  rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/ai-faq/genetic/ About
     110 pages.

     Or simply call it "the Guide", or "HHGTEC" for acronymaniacs.

The ZEN Puzzle
     For some weird reason this guide contains some puzzles which can only
     be  solved  by  cautious  readers  who have (1) a certain amount of a
     certain kind of humor, (2) a certain amount of patience and time, (3)
     a  certain  amount of experience in ZEN NAVIGATION, and (4) a certain
     amount of books of a certain author.

     Usually, puzzles search either for certain answers (more  often,  ONE
     answer)  to  a  question;  or,  for the real smartasses, sometimes an
     answer is presented, and a certain question  is  searched  for.   ZEN
     puzzles are even more challenging: you have to come up with an answer
     to a question, both of which are not  explicitly,  rather  implicitly
     stated  somewhere  in  this  FAQ.   Thus, you are expected to give an
     answer AND a question!

     To give an impression what this is all about, consider the following,
     submitted  by  Craig  W.  Reynolds.  The correct question is: "Why is
     Fisher's `improbability quote' (cf EPILOGUE ) included in this FAQ?",
     Craig's correct answer is: `This is a GREAT quotation, it sounds like
     something directly out of  a  turn  of  the  century  Douglas  Adams:
     Natural Selection:
      the  original "Infinite Improbability Drive"' Got the message? Well,
     this  was  easy  and  very  obvious.  The  other  puzzles  are   more
     challenging...

     However,  all  this is just for fun (mine and hopefully yours), there
     is nothing like the $100 price, some big shots in  computer  science,
     e.g.   Don  Knuth  usually  offer;  all  there  is  but  a  honorable
     mentioning of the ZEN navigator, including the  puzzle  s/he  solved.
     It's  thus  like  in  real life: don't expect to make money from your
     time being a scientist, it's all just for the fun of it...

     Enjoy the trip!

TABLE OF CONTENTS
 Part1

     Q0: How about an introduction to comp.ai.genetic?

 Part2

     Q1: What are Evolutionary Algorithms (EAs)?
     Q1.1: What's a Genetic Algorithm (GA)?
     Q1.2: What's Evolutionary Programming (EP)?
     Q1.3: What's an Evolution Strategy (ES)?
     Q1.4: What's a Classifier System (CFS)?
     Q1.5: What's Genetic Programming (GP)?

 Part3

     Q2: What applications of EAs are there?

     Q3: Who is concerned with EAs?

     Q4: How many EAs exist? Which?
     Q4.1: What about Alife systems, like Tierra and VENUS?

     Q5: What about all this Optimization stuff?

 Part4

     Q10: What introductory material on EAs is there?
     Q10.1: Suitable background reading for beginners?
     Q10.2: Textbooks on EC?
     Q10.3: The Classics?
     Q10.4: Introductory Journal Articles?
     Q10.5: Introductory Technical Reports?
     Q10.6: Not-quite-so-introductory Literature?
     Q10.7: Biological Background Readings?
     Q10.8: On-line bibliography collections?
     Q10.9: Videos?
     Q10.10: CD-ROMs?
     Q10.11: How do I get a copy of a dissertation?

     Q11: What EC related journals and magazines are there?

     Q12: What are the important conferences/proceedings on EC?

     Q13: What Evolutionary Computation Associations exist?

     Q14: What Technical Reports are available?

     Q15: What information is available over the net?
     Q15.1: What digests are there?
     Q15.2: What mailing lists are there?
     Q15.3: What online information repositories are there?
     Q15.4: What relevant newsgroups and FAQs are there?
     Q15.5: What about all these Internet Services?

 Part5

     Q20: What EA software packages are available?
     Q20.1: Free software packages?
     Q20.2: Commercial software packages?
     Q20.3: Current research projects?

 Part6

     Q21: What are Gray codes, and why are they used?

     Q22: What test data is available?

     Q42: What is Life all about?
     Q42b: Is there a FAQ to this group?

     Q98: Are there any patents on EAs?

     Q99: A Glossary on EAs?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Q0: How about an introduction to comp.ai.genetic?

     Certainly. See below.

What is comp.ai.genetic all about?
     The newsgroup comp.ai.genetic is intended as a forum for  people  who
     want  to  use or explore the capabilities of Genetic Algorithms (GA),
     Evolutionary Programming (EP), Evolution Strategies (ES),  Classifier
     Systems  (CFS),  Genetic Programming (GP), and some other, less well-
     known problem solving  algorithms  that  are  more  or  less  loosely
     coupled to the field of Evolutionary Computation (EC).
How do I get started? What about USENET documentation?
     The  following guidelines present the essentials of the USENET online
     documentation, that is posted each month to news.announce.newusers

     If you are already familiar with "netiquette" you can skip to the end
     of  this  answer;  if you don't know what the hell this is all about,
     proceed as follows: (1) carefully read the following paragraphs,  (2)
     read  all  the documents in news.announce.newusers before posting any
     article to USENET.  At least you should give the introductory stuff a
     try,  i.e.  files "news-answers/introduction" and "news-answers/news-
     newusers-intro". Both are survey articles, that provide a  short  and
     easy  way  to  get an overview of the interesting parts of the online
     docs, and thus can help to prevent you from drowning in the megabytes
     to read. Both can be received either by subscribing to news.answers ,
     or sending the following message to <[email]>:

	  send usenet/news.answers/introduction
	  send usenet/news.answers/news-newusers-intro
	  quit

Netiquette
	     "Usenet is a convention, in every sense of the word."

     Although USENET is usually characterized as "an anarchy, with no laws
     and  no  one  in  charge" there have "emerged" several rules over the
     past years that shall facilitate life within  newsgroups.  Thus,  you
     will probably find the following types of articles:

 1. Requests
     Requests  are  articles  of  the form "I am looking for X" where X is
     something public like a book, an article, a piece of software.

     If multiple different answers can be expected, the person making  the
     request  should  prepare  to make a summary of the answers he/she got
     and announce to do  so  with  a  phrase  like  "Please  e-mail,  I'll
     summarize" at the end of the posting.

     The  Subject  line  of  the  posting  should  then  be something like
     "Request: X"

 2. Questions
     As opposed to requests, questions are  concerned  with  something  so
     specific  that  general  interest  cannot readily be assumed.  If the
     poster thinks that the topic is  of  some  general  interest,  he/she
     should announce a summary (see above).

     The  Subject  line of the posting should be something like "Question:
     this-and-that" (Q: this-and-that) or have  the  form  of  a  question
     (i.e., end with a question mark)

 3. Answers
     These  are  reactions  to  questions or requests.  As a rule of thumb
     articles of type "answer" should be rare.   Ideally,  in  most  cases
     either  the  answer  is  too  specific to be of general interest (and
     should thus be e-mailed to the poster) or  a  summary  was  announced
     with  the question or request (and answers should thus be e-mailed to
     the poster).

     The subject lines of answers are automatically adjusted by  the  news
     software.

 4. Summaries
     In  all  cases  of requests or questions the answers for which can be
     assumed to be of some general interest, the poster of the request  or
     question shall summarize the answers he/she received.  Such a summary
     should be announced in  the  original  posting  of  the  question  or
     request with a phrase like "Please answer by e-mail, I'll summarize"

     In  such  a  case  answers  should NOT be posted to the newsgroup but
     instead be mailed to the poster who collects and reviews them.  After
     about 10 to 20 days from the original posting, its poster should make
     the summary of answers and post it to the net.
     Some care should be invested into a summary:

     a) simple concatenation of all  the  answers  might  not  be  enough;
	instead  redundancies, irrelevances, verbosities and errors should
	be filtered out (as good as possible),

     b) the answers shall be separated clearly

     c) the contributors of the individual answers shall  be  identifiable
	unless  they  requested  to  remain anonymous [eds note: yes, that
	happens])

     d) the summary shall start with the "quintessence" of the answers, as
	seen by the original poster

     e) A  summary  should, when posted, clearly be indicated to be one by
	giving it a Subject line starting with "Summary:"

     Note that a good summary is pure gold for the rest of  the  newsgroup
     community,  so  summary  work  will be most appreciated by all of us.
     (Good summaries are more valuable than any moderator!)

 5. Announcements
     Some articles never need  any  public  reaction.   These  are  called
     announcements  (for  instance  for  a  workshop,  conference  or  the
     availability of some technical report or software system).

     Announcements should be clearly indicated to be such by giving them a
     subject  line  of the form "Announcement: this-and-that", or "ust "A:
     this-and-that".

     Due to common practice,  conference  announcements  usually  carry  a
     "CFP:"  in  their subject line, i.e. "call for papers" (or: "call for
     participation").

 6. Reports
     Sometimes people  spontaneously  want  to  report  something  to  the
     newsgroup.  This  might  be  special  experiences with some software,
     results  of  own  experiments  or  conceptual  work,  or   especially
     interesting information from somewhere else.

     Reports  should  be  clearly  indicated  to  be such by giving them a
     subject line of the form "Report: this-and-that"

 7. Discussions
     An especially valuable possibility of USENET is  of  course  that  of
     discussing  a  certain topic with hundreds of potential participants.
     All traffic in the newsgroup that can not be subsumed  under  one  of
     the above categories should belong to a discussion.

     If  somebody explicitly wants to start a discussion, he/she can do so
     by giving the posting a subject line of the form  "Start  discussion:
     this-and-that"  (People  who  react on this, please remove the "Start
     discussion: " label from the subject line of your replies)

     It is quite difficult to keep a discussion from drifting into  chaos,
     but,  unfortunately,  as many other newsgroups show there seems to be
     no secure way to avoid this.  On the other hand, comp.ai.genetic  has
     not  had  many  problems  with this effect, yet, so let's just go and
     hope...

     Thanks in advance for your patience!

 The Internet
     For information on internet services, see Q15.5.

------------------------------

     Copyright (c) 1993-1997 by J. Heitkoetter and D. Beasley, all  rights
     reserved.

     This  FAQ  may be posted to any USENET newsgroup, on-line service, or
     BBS as long as it  is  posted  in  its  entirety  and  includes  this
     copyright  statement.   This FAQ may not be distributed for financial
     gain.  This FAQ may not be  included  in  commercial  collections  or
     compilations without express permission from the author.

End of ai-faq/genetic/part1
***************************