author: JerryMouse

subject: Re: Vet Fees for lost dog

text:
"wej3715" <[email]>

My take is, yes, you would be entitled to reimbursement.

But, be realistic; what choice do you have? The dog is turning to you for
help and you don't have it in your heart to turn him out or let him die.


author: Yi Chen

subject: Tax software that support tax treaty?

text:
Is there any tax software that will let me
claim tax treaty (Form 8833)? I checked
the websites of TaxCut, TurboTax and it
seems they don't support this form.

Thanks,

Yi

<< ------------------------------------------------->>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting    >>
<< messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org >>
<< ------------------------------------------------->>


author: shagnasty

subject: Re: Tax software that support tax treaty?

text:
"Yi Chen" <[email]> wrote:

Yes, ATX supports Form 8833 and almost any Federal, State or
City tax form. Probably most other professional tax software
programs would support this form.  Intuit which owns Turbo
Tax has a ProSeries package that probably includes the Form
8833.

<< ------------------------------------------------->>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting    >>
<< messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org >>
<< ------------------------------------------------->>


author: A.G. Kalman

text:
Yi Chen wrote:

They probably don't have it because it can not be e-filed.
You will have to file a paper return and download a copy
from the IRS: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/index.html


author: Drew Edmundson

text:
shagnasty" <[email]> wrote:

Proseries does not include Form 8833.

Drew Edmundson, CPA (NC)

<< ------------------------------------------------->>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting    >>
<< messages to this newsgroup are at www.asktax.org >>
<< ------------------------------------------------->>


author: Anonymous

subject: American Airlines Pilot Argues with Stupid Mexican In Control Tower, Makes Emergency Landing at JFK

text:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWXqI824igA

http://www.nycaviation.com/2010/05/american-airlines-pilot-makes-
emergency-landing-after-argument-with-control-tower/#.UMT7iOTWJCY

A snippity exchange between the crew of an American Airlines 767
and the Kennedy Airport control tower on Wednesday concluded
when the plane made an emergency landing.

On May 5th, American Airlines Flight 2 from LAX was cleared to
land on JFKï¿½s Runway 22L when the tower offered a wind update:
ï¿½Wind now 3-2-0 at 2-3, gusting to 3-5.ï¿½

A few seconds later, one of the pilots responds, ï¿½American 2, we
canï¿½t land on 2-2. Weï¿½re breaking off approach, and if you donï¿½t
give us to, uhh, runway, uhh, 3-1-Right weï¿½re going to declare
an emergency.ï¿½

Tower: ï¿½Alright I will pass it along, fly runway heading for
now.ï¿½

AA 2 heavy: ï¿½Okay, weï¿½re declaring emergency, weï¿½re gonna land 3-
1-right. Weï¿½re going to the left and then coming around.ï¿½

Tower: ï¿½American 2 heavy, just fly runway heading.ï¿½

AA 2 heavy: ï¿½Clear the area.ï¿½

Tower: ï¿½You say youï¿½re declaring emergency?ï¿½

AA 2 heavy: ï¿½Three times Iï¿½ve told you that. Three times weï¿½re
declaring an emergency.ï¿½

Tower: ï¿½Okay, I just want to verify, I know you said if you
didnï¿½t get 31-right you have to declare an emergency. Okay,
understand, fly runway heading and I gotta get you a turn!ï¿½

Tower: ï¿½Fly heading 1-8-0?

AA 2 heavy: ï¿½American 2 heavy, we are turning around to the left
here and landing on 3-1. Remove everybody from our way. Weï¿½ve
declared an emergency. Weï¿½re on a visual.ï¿½

Tower: ï¿½Alright, American 2 heavy, cleared to land, 3-1-right, 3-
1-0 2-4 gusting to 3-4.ï¿½

AA 2 heavy: ï¿½Cleared to land, runway 3-1-right, American 2
heavy.ï¿½

Reportedly beyond the crosswind limits of the 767-200 and too
low on fuel to perform a new approach, the crew of the jet may
have had no choice but to land immediately. JFK has been using
its 4/22 runways during crosswind conditions more frequently
since the March closure of runway 13R/31L for construction.

No word if the FAA or American Airlines is investigating the
incident.

Stupid fucking Mexicans!

ï¿½


author: SpambustЯ

subject:
SPAMMED -------------------Re: American Airlines Pilot Argues with
 Stupid Mexican In Control Tower, Makes Emergency Landing at JFK

text:
On 09/12/2012 4:25 PM, Anonymous wrote:

GONE

--
SPAMMED TO NON-RELEVANT NEWSGROUPS - AND CUT


author: Stormin Mormon

subject: Re: American Airlines Pilot Argues with Stupid Mexican In Control Tower, Makes Emergency Landing at JFK

text:
Yeah, but think of all the money they saved, not using a domestic air
traffic controller?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.

"Anonymous" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWXqI824igA

http://www.nycaviation.com/2010/05/american-airlines-pilot-makes-
emergency-landing-after-argument-with-control-tower/#.UMT7iOTWJCY

A snippity exchange between the crew of an American Airlines 767
and the Kennedy Airport control tower on Wednesday concluded
when the plane made an emergency landing.

On May 5th, American Airlines Flight 2 from LAX was cleared to
land on JFK's Runway 22L when the tower offered a wind update:
"Wind now 3-2-0 at 2-3, gusting to 3-5."

A few seconds later, one of the pilots responds, "American 2, we
can't land on 2-2. We're breaking off approach, and if you don't
give us to, uhh, runway, uhh, 3-1-Right we're going to declare
an emergency."

Tower: "Alright I will pass it along, fly runway heading for
now."

AA 2 heavy: "Okay, we're declaring emergency, we're gonna land 3-
1-right. We're going to the left and then coming around."

Tower: "American 2 heavy, just fly runway heading."

AA 2 heavy: "Clear the area."

Tower: "You say you're declaring emergency?"

AA 2 heavy: "Three times I've told you that. Three times we're
declaring an emergency."

Tower: "Okay, I just want to verify, I know you said if you
didn't get 31-right you have to declare an emergency. Okay,
understand, fly runway heading and I gotta get you a turn!"

Tower: "Fly heading 1-8-0?

AA 2 heavy: "American 2 heavy, we are turning around to the left
here and landing on 3-1. Remove everybody from our way. We've
declared an emergency. We're on a visual."

Tower: "Alright, American 2 heavy, cleared to land, 3-1-right, 3-
1-0 2-4 gusting to 3-4."

AA 2 heavy: "Cleared to land, runway 3-1-right, American 2
heavy."

Reportedly beyond the crosswind limits of the 767-200 and too
low on fuel to perform a new approach, the crew of the jet may
have had no choice but to land immediately. JFK has been using
its 4/22 runways during crosswind conditions more frequently
since the March closure of runway 13R/31L for construction.

No word if the FAA or American Airlines is investigating the
incident.

Stupid fucking Mexicans!


author: Rocky

subject:
Re: American Airlines Pilot Argues with Stupid Mexican In Control
 Tower, Makes Emergency Landing at JFK

text:
"American Airlines?"

Is that some kind of oxymoron or what?

American air travelers are accustomed to rubber hands up their
assholes by "security" people who don't speak English and are paid
slightly more than the average Chinaman, who makes Apple iPads for
$100 a week and a bowl of rotten rice.


author: Wade Nolan

text:
On 09 Dec 2012, Rocky <[email]> posted some
news:[email]:

An archaic holdover from the days before William Jefferson Clinton.

When freedom and the United States Constitution really did mean
something.

Yeah but just think of that cool iPhone you can buy giving Apple a
revenue contribution of $650 per unit.  You might think you're getting a
deal for a few hundred bucks, but you aren't done paying for the phone
yet by a long shot.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email] ---


text:
On 09/12/2012 7:32 PM, Rocky wrote:

Monterrey, Mexico (CNN) -- Millions of fans on both sides of the
U.S.-Mexico border are mourning the death of Jenni Rivera, whose
performances of soulful ballads sold out concert halls and made the
singer a household name for many.

Crews searched for Rivera's remains Monday amid the wreckage of a plane
that crashed in a remote, mountainous area in northern Mexico on Sunday.

"The plane was totally destroyed. ... It is a great tragedy," her
brother, Gustavo Rivera, told CNN en Español.

Six others were killed, including the singer's publicist, lawyer and
makeup artists, he said. Family members were planning to travel to
Mexico on Monday as investigators work to determine what caused the crash.


text:
Is "stupid Mexican" redundant?

Is "transportation security" oxymoron?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.

"Rocky" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
"American Airlines?"

Is that some kind of oxymoron or what?

American air travelers are accustomed to rubber hands up their
assholes by "security" people who don't speak English and are paid
slightly more than the average Chinaman, who makes Apple iPads for
$100 a week and a bowl of rotten rice.


author: Harold & Susan Vordos

text:
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61***[email]> wrote in message
news:b4dxs.3752$[email]...

What the hell is wrong with you people?  (People---a term I use loosely).
You're disgusting.  How about showing a little respect for our fellow human
beings?

Stormin----is that what your church teaches you?   No damned wonder I left
Utah.  Damned hypocrites.

Harold


text:
My, that's a lot of vicious and hateful name
calling. Have you considered the feelings of
the people you just slammed?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.

"Harold & Susan Vordos" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Wrgxs.33$[email]...

What the hell is wrong with you people?

(People---a term I use loosely).

You're disgusting.

Utah.  Damned hypocrites.

Harold


text:
On 09/12/2012 11:47 PM, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

(CNN) -- She grew up in one of the poorest spots on earth. She couldn't
read or write. As a child, she scrounged for food each day for herself,
her mother, and her brother.

But a chance encounter with a chess coach turned her into a rising
international chess star, the subject of a book -- and the protagonist
in a future Disney movie.

Ugandan teenager Phiona Mutesi is "the ultimate underdog," her
biographer says.

Those who work with her believe she's 16. But since her birthday is
unclear, she might still only be 15, they say.

Her father died from AIDS when Mutesi was around 3.


author: ATP

text:
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61***[email]> wrote in message
news:q6nxs.81947$[email]...
You just called all Mexicans stupid.


subject:
SPAMMED -----------------------  Re: American Airlines Pilot Argues
 with Stupid Mexican In Control Tower, Makes Emergency Landing at JFK

text:
On 10/12/2012 7:20 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

--
SPAMMED TO NON-RELEVANT NEWSGROUPS - AND CUT


author: D. Gerasimatos

subject: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
Are there any companies in the Los Angeles area that will repair an
asbestos shingle roof, perhaps with fiber-concrete shingles?

I have called many, many companies they want to tear it off if they will
touch it at all. I don't see why new shingles can't just be installed.
(The primary problem is missing shingles.) Most roofers concurred that
new shingles could be installed if I don't mind that they don't match, but
not one of them is willing to do the work. The roof is very steep, or I'd
consider doing it myself.

Am I reduced to paying an asbestos abatement company to tear off the roof
and then hire a roofer to put on a new roof just because 30 shingles are
missing?

Any recommendations in Southern California are appreciated.

Dimitri


author: Bruce

subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
You might try contacting the Western States Roofing Contractors
Association:  www.wsrca.com

One of their members might do this type of work or at least be able to
tell you where to find someone for the repair.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
D. Gerasimatos wrote:
Look at it this way, roofers will get the work as people need roofs
fixed, why handle something that is hard to do(a high pitched roof is
dangerous, they can get the easy jobs and maybe not fall off the roofs
and the work is easier). thats why they dont want to get up on your
roof, its not the idea of what kind it is, or it might be that they cant
get a match for your roof. some roofers dont know how to fix a roof,only
how to put new shingles up. some dont even know that, those are the ones
that will not get any more jobs if the customer does his homework.


author: Anthony Matonak

subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
"D. Gerasimatos" wrote:
...

There might be some kind of regulation or law that keeps them from
repairing failing asbestos roofs. If that is the case then no one
could legally just patch it. They would have to remove the asbestos
first.

Anthony


author: Goedjn

subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
How much money are you willing to pay the guy to haul
his truck, ladders, scaffolding. and tools over to your
house to replace a couple dozen shingles?

How much is someone else willing to pay him to spend
the same day roofing their new extension?

I think the problem is that the job you have in mind
is a PITA, and not particularly profitable.


subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
In article <[email]>,
Goedjn  <[email]> wrote:

You and I both know that roofs are repaired all of the time. This isn't
a question of profit. The roofers won't do the job. Period. Because of the
asbestos. I'm looking for one that will.

Dimitri


subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
In article <9rg3bs$28di$[email]>, [email]
says...

Actually, the poster is probably correct.  We remove asbestos roofs from
time to time and it isn't a concern.  However, we quit doing any kind of
repairs--except on roofs that we installed--because it wasn't profitable.


author: Kathy

subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
D. Gerasimatos <[email]> wrote in message
news:9rg3bs$28di$[email]...

Call a "handyman". They'll usually do anything.


subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
In article <[email]>,
Bruce <[email]> wrote:

No, he is not. I wish people would listen to the *facts* instead of
speculating. It might be very profitable. I might be willing to pay a
whole lot of money. It doesn't matter. I had to call the EPA just to find
a list of companies (half dozen) that would do the tear-off. I could not
find any roofing companies on that list, though.

Dimitri


subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
In article <9rhu74$2uaq$[email]>, [email]
says...

The last time I checked, the EPA had no restrictions against removing an
asbestos roof from a single family residence.  Unless there are local
laws concerning such a removal, any roofing company could do the job.


subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you posted:

Doesn't look like someone who's looking for removal and replacement,
it looks like someone who just wants a few missing shingles replaced.

The former is something that an asbestos removal (or remediation) company
would do.  You look in the phone book under ASBESTOS, instead of
roofing.   The latter is something the homeowner does, or finds some other
poor sap with more guts and time than capitol equipment to do.


subject: Re: Asbestos roof in Los Angeles area

text:
In article <[email]>,
Bruce <[email]> wrote:

I don't know if it is an EPA concern, but it may be a California state
concern. The EPA referred me to a California OSHA web site.

Dimitri


author: clive

subject: online psychological study about parenting

text:
If you or your partner are pregnant, then please click on the link
below where you will find two questionnaires, one for moms and one for
dads. These questionnaires are part of my Psychology Bsc Single (Hons)
Degree theses.

I need 150 dads and 150 moms to complete the questionnaires within TWO
MONTHS! Now you see why I need your help so much! Without sounding
dramatic, my degree depends on it, as no data means no pass!

The questionnaire will take you about 5 minutes and you can have great
feedback about the whole study!

Here is the link: http://pers-www.wlv.ac.uk/~a0162731/research.html

Could I ask you to email this email to three or more friends please,
even if they are not having a baby, as they may know someone else who
is!

Thank You, and I really do mean thank you for at least taking the time
to read this email, and especially so if you manage to help!

Clive.
[email]

http://pers-www.wlv.ac.uk/~a0162731/research.html


author: Daye

subject: Re: online psychological study about parenting

text:
On 16 Sep 2003 14:39:19 -0700, [email] (clive) wrote:

How many times are you going to post this??  This is becoming spam.  I
realize that you need people to answer your survery.  You have given
the information.  Now let people have a chance to respond.

The more times you post it, the more people are going to be inclined
NOT to help you.

If you want to post a reminder in a week or two, that would be fine.
Reposting every day is just going to piss people off.


author: Linz

text:
"clive" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

At this stage, I am about to email [email], where this researcher is
based, to ask them to have a word about his activities. Once was okay, this
is getting ridiculous.


author: Paragon Trading, Inc.

subject: The Paragon Traders' Report

text:
The following report contains excerpts from The Paragon Traders' Report,
which is published daily.  The Paragon Traders' Report is a very detailed
tool for OEX, S&P and T-Bond traders. For information on The Paragon
Traders' Report, or to subscribe, please call 614-792-2690 or eMail
[email]

Please visit http://www.paragontrd.com for subscription information.

Note: The Paragon Traders' Report is now available by email delivery.

The Paragon Traders' Report Weekly Outlook

Market Recap for the Week of February 8 through February 12

The market volatility continued this week and as we thought provided
substantial opportunities for profits in the S&Ps. Our subscribers were
rewarded with 3 trades (Mon, Tues, Thurs) that helped produced enough gains
to pay for this service for several years and buy their sweetheart a nice
gift. Let's take a closer look at how the week unfolded.

After closing the week at 1243.50 on Friday, February 5 we believed the S&Ps
had broken down. Based on this breakdown our recommendation was for them to
trade to the other side of the 1219-1292 trading range. Based on this
analysis we implemented a short trade on Monday (see trade details below)
that produced handsome profits. Monday's decline was just the start of the
downward action. The sell off continued Tuesday as the S&Ps dropped to a low
of 1218.00 on massive NYSE tick readings. Tuesday's free fall again provided
a solid trading opportunity following Monday's compression (see trade detail
below). After two days of decline we warned that the easy money to the
downside had been made and we would wait for the S&Ps to stabilize and set
up another trade. Wednesday the S&Ps stabilized and rallied to close at
1225.40, up 6.40 points. It was our belief that the short-term low was made
and the S&Ps would then move higher. Since the S&Ps had recorded eight
separate -1000 NYSE tick readings in just two days, a reflex rally at a
minimum was in the cards. Using our discipline and not attempting to pick a
bottom we implemented another breakout trade on the S&Ps. The upside
breakout trade was entered in the first hour of trading at 1234-1235 (see
trade details below). From this entry the short-sellers were trapped and the
S&Ps rallied 28 points to a high of 1263.00. The day closed at 1262.50, up
36.50 points. It was a fun week of trading and we are looking forward to the
long weekend.

Market Outlook

Where does the market go from here? In last week's report we mentioned it
was show time for the bears. The bears capitalized early in the week
dropping the S&Ps to a low of 1215.50 but were unable to close them below
this key level. This massive sell-off caused the S&Ps to quickly become
oversold resulting in a reflex rally on Thursday. We will now look to see if
the bulls have any conviction now that the short sellers have been driven
out of the market. It will take a close above 1275.00 to create further
upside action. A close above 1291.00 would be an upside breakout. The
1215-1219 support level is now even more critical after this week's action.
A close below 1219.00 will cause a sharp decline. We highly recommend
subscribing to our daily report to receive our in-depth analysis. Have a
great long weekend and get rested for another week of action when we return.

Daily Highlights from The Paragon Traders' Report for the week of February
8:

Monday February 1:

"The S&Ps broke below the 1248 level Friday indicating the potential for a
test of 1226 at a minimum.  Since the market is short-term overextended we
will look to short the S&Ps at higher levels. If the bears have control the
S&Ps should not trade significantly back above the 1248-1253 resistance
level.  For the T-Bonds, the bonds are overextended having set 5 consecutive
sessions of lower highs, lows and closes.  A near term bounce is likely.
The fact that 124-08 is a major long-term support level and that it was
tested for two consecutive days and held increases the potential for a
short-term bounce."

In our report for Monday we indicated the S&Ps should move lower and
outlined a trade to short the March S&Ps between 1247-1253 using a 1256.50
stop-loss. The S&Ps cooperated by opening at 1250.00 and rallying to a high
of 1253.00 in the first five minutes of trading. This high was the high for
the day and provided an excellent entry for our short trade. Our initial
objective on the trade was 1237.00. Again the S&Ps cooperated by moving down
to a low of 1236.50 on a -676 NYSE tick by 1135 ET. Our subscribers had
gained a minimum of 13 points in the first two hours of trading as our
trading parameters captured the entire day's trading range. The S&Ps then
stabilized and rallied to close the day at 1247.20, up 3.70 points.
The March T-Bonds also acted according to plan as they set an early low at
124 02/32 and rallied to a high of 124 28/32 before closing at 124 13/32, up
3/32.

Tuesday February 2:

"It is quite possible that Monday was just a pause in the downward momentum
established last week. If Monday was just a pause in the selling the bears
must halt any rallies at the 1248-1256 zone.  The bulls must control the
mid-1230 area or else the S&Ps will drop to 1226 at a minimum. The trade for
today is to implement an intraday breakout of Monday's compression
(pattern)."

Monday was the calm before the storm as the S&Ps produced a total range of
just 16.50 points. We instructed our subscribers to implement a breakout
trade supplying them with the proper trade parameters. The S&Ps opened at
1247.50 and hit the key 1248 resistance zone in the first five minutes of
trading. The bears controlled this zone as the selling began. Within the
first 45 minutes of trading our downside breakout trade was entered at
1239.90. The S&Ps responded by dropping to a low of 1227.50 on a -1136 NYSE
tick reading. After bouncing to 1235.50 the S&Ps set a new low at 1226.50 on
another -1155 NYSE tick. These two sell-offs produced substantial profits
for our subscribers. On the second extreme tick the trade was profitable by
more than 12 points bringing our subscribers' two-day profit potential to
more than 25 points. These extreme NYSE tick readings lead to a reflex rally
back near the high of the session. As the final hour began the bears pulled
the rug out from under the bulls and dropped the S&Ps to a low of 1218.00 on
more massive minus NYSE tick readings. The S&Ps closed the volatile session
at 1219.00, down 28.20 points.

Wednesday February 3:

"Short-term the market is very overextended but attempting to fight the
downward momentum is futile.  Remember that markets can get very
overextended before reversing. Do not attempt to bottom fish as this is
against the major downward momentum.  Likewise, though shorting remains the
appropriate strategy the easy money may be gone.  The market must first
stabilize before it can move higher.  Note that 1210-1215 is a very
significant support level."

As the song goes, "you have to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold
'em." Wednesday was our day to hold the cards close to our vest. The first
two days of the week were profitable and Wednesday's pattern did not present
a high probability trade. We indicated that 1210-1215 was a very significant
support level. In addition, the S&Ps were getting short-term overextended to
the downside. We would not attempt to pick a bottom but rather wait for the
market to stabilize and present another trading opportunity. Wednesday's
action presented just that opportunity as the S&Ps again created a
compression pattern setting up another trade for Thursday. The S&Ps finished
the day at 1225.40, up 6.40 points.

Thursday February 4:

"Our bias is now neutral since our 1219 objective was met and the downward
price momentum abated Wednesday. The short-term low should be complete but
until the bulls prove their willingness to buy caution is still warranted on
the long side.  If so the market should move higher to, at a minimum, 1248
with 1256 likely.  The final ingredient is a sign of real buying and the
bulls recapturing the 1226-1236 price zone.  An additional sign will be a
low today of 1220.80 or greater."

After the S&Ps broke down on Friday, February 5 we told our subscribers this
breakdown would produce a test of the 1219 level. This downside action did
occur as the S&Ps moved to a low of 1218.00 on Tuesday and 1215.50 on
Wednesday. More importantly, there was massive selling these two days as
represented by 8 separate NYSE -1000 tick readings. After Wednesday's close
at 1225.40 we stated, "The short-term low should be complete." Furthermore,
we initiated another breakout trade giving our subscribers the appropriate
parameters. After opening at 1229.00 and rallying to 1233.30 the S&Ps pulled
back to a low of 1226.50 on a -552 NYSE tick reading. The bears simply could
not hold the bulls back and moved the S&Ps to a new high initiating our
upside breakout parameter in the process. The trade was entered at
1234.00-1235.00 and quickly pulled away from this level. Both of our upside
targets at 1248 and 1256 were achieved as the S&Ps rallied to a high of
1263.00 before closing at 1262.50, up 37.00 points. This rally produced a
substantial S&P profit of 25 points. Even traders not willing to hold their
position into the final hour easily netted 13 points. It was a nice week and
will make the long weekend even more enjoyable.

Friday February 5:

"Our average short-term objective range of 1248-1256 was met Thursday.  Due
to the holiday weekend and early bond close today's trading may be thin and
therefore unpredictable. This was a very productive week with the three
trades netting substantial profits, enough to cover the fee for this service
for several years.  Bank your proceeds (or spend them on your sweetheart)
and get set for the holiday weekend.  Do not surrender any of your profits
to the locals."

Past performance is not indicative of future results.

***************************************


author: PaulKing

subject: Dissident Action and AME Stats - 78 New members this week

text:
New members this week: -

NEW THIS WEEK:
	ï¿½ï¿½
Dissident-Action. Posts	53	Members7	ï¿½manager
Meet HIV/AIDS people FREE	Posts 12	Members	8
African American AIDS	11,4	ï¿½
AIDS/HIV	10,	4
HIVPozitive Women	5,	3
Ted and Sally Support Group	5,	2	ï¿½
HAART is Heartless	5	,2	ï¿½
Cabaret Ballroom	3,	1	ï¿½
Old diseases - New Name	3,	1	ï¿½
Glaxo Wellcome Kleine exposed	3	,0	ï¿½
Alive and Well supporters group	2,2	ï¿½
AIDS- The Conventional View	2	,2	ï¿½
Poz Palace	2,1	ï¿½
FACT OR FICTION - Make an informed choice	2	,0
AIDS CHAT TOGETHER	2, 0	ï¿½
THE INTERNATIONAL DISSIDENT	1,2	ï¿½
Condom facts and fiction	1,2
Dissident Scientists	1	,2	ï¿½
Karry Mullis on AIDS	1	,2	ï¿½
JUST SAY NO FORUM	1	,1
The AIDSmeds Forum	1,1
TheBody AIDS Forum	1	, 1
The Number One AIDs Group on MSN	1	,	1	ï¿½
The Perth Group - Discussion Forum	1,1	ï¿½
THE POZ FORUM	1	,1	ï¿½
AIDS STATISTICS	1,1
Talk About AIDS Forum	1	,0	ï¿½
Poz Place	1,	0
Working Girls - The risk	0,	3	ï¿½
TESTING-TESTING-TESTING	0	,	2	ï¿½
Virusmyth Supporters Forum	0	,	1
WITH A GLOVE, IT'S NOT LOVE	0,1	ï¿½
The Latino Forum	0	,	1	ï¿½
Rock the Boat	0	,	1	ï¿½
EVERYTHING ABOUT T4 CELLS	0,	1
Dissidents - Who's Who	0	,1
LIDS - Latex allergies and the dangers of condoms	0		1
Dissident Action Group Secure Board	0	,	0	ï¿½

AIDS Myth Exposed	87,	14

78 NEW MEMBERS SINCE SUNDAY

We are also the : - Largest group on MSN  1328 member (AME)
Largest group of associated forums,: - 2,521

Most active forums (posts from different member)
and larger than ALL apologist groups on MSN put togehter and multiplied by
five.


author: David Canzi -- non-mailable address

subject: Re: Dissident Action and AME Stats - 78 New members this week

text:
In article <[email]>,
PaulKing <[email]> wrote:
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]

Hmmm.  The secure board looks pretty dead.

That's 7 new members for DAG, 14 new members for AME, and 57 signups to
various DAG-associated non-forums.  57 signups that can include people
counted several times because they signed up to several boards, people
who thought they were signing up to a forum and discovered a message
board containing only posts from the moderator, people who mistook
Cabaret Ballroom for Cabaret Lounge or mistook the Ted and Sally
Support Group for a support group, people who signed up based on a
misleading description at http://groups.msn.com/browse.msnw.?catid=99.

Let us not forget the people who weren't fooled into signing up, who
knew they were signing up to a dissident board, and will lose interest
in it as most members of AME (0.009 messages per member-day) have.

DAG - 321 members, by MSN's count.  (How many of those 321 still care
is another question.)  The "associated forums", which are not really
forums, serve only to inflate your apparent membership.

DAG is something small trying to look big.

<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cpn1at%24er6%241%40rumours.uwaterloo.ca>


text:
IN CONTRAST ALL THE 120 APOLOGIST MSN SUPPORT GROUPS COMBINED (AIDS/USA)
GAINED A TOTAL OF 7 NEW MEMBERS THIS WEEK.

11 to 1 in favor of the dissidents!

So much for the D M Canzi lie.

Check for yourself: -

http://www.groups.msn.com/browse.msnw.?catid=99


text:
If you bothered to look you would see that all were to the clearly
dissident forums.

Nice try, but once again you have egg on your face.


text:
In article <[email]>,
PaulKing <[email]> wrote:

These are some of your "clearly dissident" forums:

Meet HIV/AIDS people FREE (61 members)
A place to meet HIV+ men and women. REAL AND CURRENT ads from men,
women and even couples. WE ARE THE ORIGINAL MEET HIV/AIDS PEOPLE
group. Do not be fooled by cheap imitations. Prospective members must
provide a valid reason for joining to help keep the group safe.

(Apparently named in imitation of:
Meet HIV+ people FREE (82 members)
We are the origanal HIV+ meeting group and a proud member of
"Positively United". An alliance of groups dedicated to the support
of people living with HIV and AIDS)

Cabaret Ballroom (64 members)
The group for all Gays and their Buddies to chat about the trials
and tribulations of being gay and HIV positive, or just to hang out
and meet and chat with others similarly infected and affected by
the virus. Exchange stories, gossip, show tunes, news, info, jokes
in an atmosphere of acceptance, support and feather boas. Vent,
flame and throw a tantrum, drama is our lives so let's share and
just be ourselves at Cabaret. Dare to dream honeylamb, in affable
surroundings!! Myth mongers and sheep are NOT welcome! "Life is a
Cabaret old chum - come to the Cabaret

(People might mistake this one for the non-dissident Cabaret Lounge.)

TheBody AIDS Forum (54 members)
General Disclaimer: The Body is designed for educational purposes
only and is not engaged in rendering medical advice or professional
services. The information provided through The Body AIDS Forum should
not be used for diagnosing or treating a health problem or a disease.

(In no way affilated or connected to TheBody --THIS belongs high on
the list of your dirtiest tricks.)

HIVPozitive Women (57 members)
A moderated support group for HIV positive women. Topics include
pediatric AIDS, breastfeeding and risk assessment. A friendly place
for women of all ages to meet and discuss the topic. COME JOIN OUR
HAPPY FAMILY TODAY.

Ted and Sally Support Group (58 members)
AIDS Support Group. Talk about anything that may be bothering you. Get
advice from others who have had the same things happen to them,
med related or otherwise. Come on in and join the fun.

The AIDSmeds Forum (44 members)
AIDSmeds Forum is dedicated to providing people living with HIV
the necessary information they need to make empowered decisions. By
offering full up-to-date info, AIDSmeds Forum seeks to help those
that are both new and old to this challenge, and to remain a powerful
resource for years to come.

The Number One AIDs Group on MSN (49 members)
This is safe place to share your thoughts and experiences. You can
relax and be yourself because this is a fully moderated group. Everyone
is welcome but no spam or myths please. Come on in and enjoy the fun.

THE POZ FORUM (46 members)
Help and support group. A place to discuss those issues directly
and indirectly related to 'AIDS/HIV", from medical problems to
psycho-social issues. A REALLY FRIENDLY COMMUNITY THAT OFFERS A WARM
WELCOME TO ONE AND ALL.


text:
Dissident Action and AME Stats - 78 New members this week

WRONG. Make that: - 81 and counting (Sat. 12.04)


text:
Now up to 85 this week alone and still counting (week ends Sunday).

Eat your heart out Canzi


author: GMCarter

text:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:20:43 -0500, "PaulKing"
<[email]> wrote:

85 what? Your flooding of the same bullshit posts over and over?


author: Stu

subject: FS: 3D Ultra Pinball - Full Retail Box

text:
3D Ultra Pinball

Fastest Pinball In Space

Full Retail Box

For Windows 95, Win 3.1

Minimum Requirements - 486/DX33 or higher (Pentium for Premium
Performance), CD-ROM and Hard Drive, Windows 3.1 or higher, Windows 95
compatible, 8MB RAM for Windows 95, 4MB Ram for Windows 3.1, SVGA
640x480 - 256 color, Windows compatible soundcard with DAC required.

Supports - Soundblaster, Pro Audio & 100% compatibles

Available from On Tap Software

http://www.ontap2.com/cdrom/

Order on-line with Visa, MasterCard, AMerican Express or Discover


subject: 401k "after-tax" contribs vs other investments

text:
Hello.

I'm 45, in the 28 percent tax bracket (married/file
jointly),  looking to retire in 12 years, and contributing
to the $10.5k dollar deferred limit in my 401k.  Am also
socking away the max in two Roth IRAs (mine and spouse's).

Question:

I have about $8k/yr left over to invest, and will continue
to have a surplus even when the limits on 401k/IRA
contributions increase.  As I see it, some choices include:

1) Upping my 401k contributions so that I contribute an
   additional 8k after-tax
2) Paying more on my mortgage every month
3) Throwing the money in a tax-managed mutual fund, like
   Vanguard's Tax-Managed Growth and Income Fund (VTGIX)

Near as I can tell, #1 means that earnings on the after-tax
contribs. will be taxed as ordinary income when I withdraw
them, rather than as LT cap gains (choice 3).  OTOH, I may
well be in the 15% tax bracket by retirement time, so that's
an improvement over LT cap gains.  On yet another hand, the
gains (like all "rollover-able" monies in the 401k)  will be
subject to a 20 percent withholding if kept in the 401k, so
I guess that's a factor.

Re #2, I'm in the first year of a 15-year 240,000 refi at
6%.  Intuitively (as opposed to doing the math ;^) ), it
seems smarter to *not* pay extra principal, enjoy as much of
a mortgage interest deduction as I can for as long as I can,
and find an investment vehicle paying > 6 percent.

Which leaves number 3, toward which I'm leaning.

Can anyone comment on which of the above choices would be
most tax-advantageous, or offer alternatives if they're even
more effective? Thanks!

P.S.  Other factoids: While not offered a huge array of
investment options in the 401k, I am able to invest in
large/mid/small-cap stock index funds, plus an international
fund, plus bond and cash vehicles.  Plus, the management
fees are extraordinarily low, averaging .06%

<< -------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for Posting to this >>
<< newsgroup are at www.Misc-Taxes-Moderated.com      >>
<< -------------------------------------------------- >>


subject: Re: 401k "after-tax" contribs vs other investments

text:
As part of your investigation you might consider that
after-tax contributions are going to be eligible for
rollover to an IRA (the same as an IRA rollover is now).
Using your crystal ball that could give you the ability to
make a subsequent rollover to a Roth with no taxes due on
the after-tax part. This would be especially beneficial if
you needed to reduce your required minimum distribution.
(New laws may allow direct rollover to a Roth in the future)

<< -------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for Posting to this >>
<< newsgroup are at www.Misc-Taxes-Moderated.com      >>
<< -------------------------------------------------- >>


text:
It it really difficult to advise you based on the limited
data you provided. You need to sit down with a financial
advisor to review all of your investments, your retirement
provisions and your plans for your heirs.


author: rick++

text:
(4) Any thing with capital gains- stocks, real estate, etc.
You dont pay taxes until sell (except for property tax). In
most income brackets the CG tax is a half to 2/3 the rate
you would pay on deferred income.  (But the CG to income tax
rate seems to yo-yo with each president: low with Carter and
Clinton, high with Ford, Reagan and Bush Sr.)

(5) Unlimited deferral in an insurance acccount.  However,
you have to pay about 1% a year for insurance costs plus
management fees. These are called [ variable ] annuities.
The worst have very high fees (5%) and the best compare to
mutual fund costs.

All these are covered in standard retirement books.

<< -------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for Posting to this >>
<< newsgroup are at www.Misc-Taxes-Moderated.com      >>
<< -------------------------------------------------- >>


author: Phil Marti

text:
"xkred27" <[email]> writes:

No, it's not.  If you're in the 15% bracket your LT cap
gains are taxed at a maximum of 10%.  See Schedule D,
Part IV.

Phil Marti
Topeka, KS

<< -------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for Posting to this >>
<< newsgroup are at www.Misc-Taxes-Moderated.com      >>
<< -------------------------------------------------- >>


author: Helen P. OPlanick EA

text:
I'm not giving you an answer, but shooting holes in your
solution above!  First of all, long term gains are not taxed
at YOUR tax rate, they are taxed at 8% or 10% (if you are in
the 15% bracket).  Now, what they will be when you retire is
not known, but do your what-if on current knowledge.  As for
the 20%, this is WITHHOLDING only and only subject if you
take a lump sum withdrawal.  When you take *normal*
distributions, you can elect to have *normal withholding* or
nothing at all.

Helen, EA in PA
Past Member of Electronic Tax Admin. Advisory Committee (ETAAC)
Director, NAEA; Member of The Tax Gang
President, PA Society of Enrolled Agents

<< -------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for Posting to this >>
<< newsgroup are at www.Misc-Taxes-Moderated.com      >>
<< -------------------------------------------------- >>


author: David desJardins

text:
[email] writes:

Is this a change in the laws?  After-tax 401(k)
contributions have not been eligible for IRA rollover; this
would be a big loophole.

David desJardins

<< -------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for Posting to this >>
<< newsgroup are at www.Misc-Taxes-Moderated.com      >>
<< -------------------------------------------------- >>


author: Art Kamlet

text:
David desJardins  <[email]> wrote:

This is permitted as of January 1, 2002.


subject: Leeds Medicals

text:
Hi did I read on here there is a Doc in Leeds that can do the medicals?
Couldn't see it in the list.
Lorri


author: WendyC

subject: Re: Leeds Medicals

text:
I don't think there is one in leeds, we are in Bradford and went to
Huddersfield as it was the nearest. If there had been one in leeds we
would have gone there.

The next nearest after huddersfield was York


author: Angela Marie

subject: Re: Leeds Medicals

text:
[QUOTE=supersonic4]
Lindley group practice in Huddersfield are FAB !
angela


subject: USA

text:
Tornadoes pound Nebraska, Kansas..killing a man and destroying at least four
homes...

Wild fire in Arizona had scorched 12,500 acres

Another US soldier was kill on June 22. A total of 138 American service
personnel died in the Iraq war...


author: Jake Surfer

subject: Re:  USA

text:
How come you don't join men and women in uniform and defend your country?

"NorthernLigths25" <[email]> wrote in message
news:rXMJa.13799$[email]...
four


author: Nick B.

subject: Re: USA

text:
Why the hell does everyone feel the need to answer the troll?  Everyone who
does, I just end up killfiling along with that tool.

"Jake Surfer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:A5NJa.1675$[email]...


author: MadRedHatter

subject: Re: USA

text:
"Jake Surfer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:A5NJa.1675$[email]...
Please don't reply to the troll NorthenLigths25 aka Aikido. The sooner
everyone killfiles him and ignores him the sooner he will go away.


author: daeron

subject: Ethics Question with ref: at On-line Encyclopedia

text:
Hi,
 I would appreciate any feedback about the article which I've
added to the online Wikipedia at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_(Indonesia)

 Do people feel the Soviet Union is still enough of a threat
that the US should still be promoting Islamic expansion to stop
it? Or should one Christian nation help another? Should the US
promote help restore the 1961 independance & freedom from
torture?

 Should the US at least stop giving US tax money via it Military
Aid to the most brutal and genocidal government on the planet?


subject: Re: Ethics Question with ref: at On-line Encyclopedia

text:
daeron wrote:
 title was meant to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Papua
 but some Islamic vandal moved it.


author: Twilight Communications, Inc.

subject: NEW Computer Memort For Sale with Lifetime Warranty!!!

text:
At Computer Connection of Florida we offer memory upgrades for IBM and
Apple computer systems, along with several notebook manufactures.

Visit our web site at:

http://www.cptrconn.com/memory

for a complete list of memory offered. If you do not see a specific
model that is not listed, please
contact us via e-mail at: [email] or voice at:

Outside SE Florida: (800) 234-1073
Inside SE Florida: (561) 439-2337

ALL of our memory has a Lifetime Warranty and is tested before leaving
the factory.
Toll Free (800) Technical Support
ALL memory is NEW, Not used or re-manufactured RAM, unlike some other
company's.


author: BuffetHater

subject: Even With Gov't Fraud the Jobs Number Was Horrid !!!

text:
"They" reported -240K jobs, but the revisions took that out to -400K

Not to worry, the PPT has been inflating the hell out of the futures
ahead of this to save the day.
It is now typical for the following to happen:
weak open,
surge on 'bargain hunters'
strong close up 400 dow points.

In that mass of numbers, there is one that we can rest assured of,
that wall street will take your money and inflate the stock markets
with that cash.
O'buummamama speaks at 3:PM.   He has to do better than paulson
or Bush.    If the market falls 900 during his speech, we voted in the
wrong 'boy'.

Good luck Amigos!!!!
And the best statistic was that the negro unemploy numbers were
twice as bad as for you filthy bastard whitey-honkies. <J/K>


author: Lawyerkill

subject: Re: Even With Gov't Fraud the Jobs Number Was Horrid !!!

text:
On Nov 7, 10:11�am, BuffetHater <[email]> wrote:

Futures are up but I can't see this holding, but you never know they
may have already priced in this jobs numbers.

Is Aero there with you?


text:
I wuz thinking the same thing!!!

Hey, now you go call comix a pig fuker while i figure out if
obamamamama
PPT has aereo out of circulation?


text:
On Nov 7, 6:45 am, BuffetHater <[email]> wrote:

PPT is defying gravity right now, like the roadrunner cartoons...

Dow
8,813.03	+117.24

RL


text:
On Nov 7, 11:04�am, raylopez99 <[email]> wrote:
.

DOW +221
I still think we are going to be down on the day


text:
Up 500 on bargoon hunters.   Hunters up here shooting off in
celebration.
Rednecks are calling deer 'Obamamamas"


author: Alex O.

subject: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
Hello,

I have a question regarding landing.

A family that I know recently got their permanent resident visas.

One of them, *not* the main applicant, wants to come first, arrange an
appartment, etc. and the rest of the family (including the main
applicant) will join after a couple of weeks.

Is this possible under the current regulations?

Thanks.


subject: Re: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
red-y wrote:

Thank you red-y.

Can the resident experts please confirm?

(Hmmm...  who's still active on this group?  A quick Google check...
and a wave to Andrew, Jim, PMM and Rich)


subject: Re: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
49th Parallel wrote:

Bummer.

Is it possible then for the spouse of the principal applicant to come
in as a temporary visitor, make the arrangements, leave after a couple
of weeks (say, to the US) then re-enter and "land" after the principal
applicant arrives?


author: 49th Parallel

subject: Re: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
Alex O. wrote:

No, the principal applicant must land in Canada first, all others
follow thereafter whether it's at the same time or on a different date.


author: Andrew Miller

subject: Re: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
Yes, it is possible. Person with valid TRV or from the visa waiver country
may visit Canada, make preparations, etc. and then leave in order to land
with or after principal applicant.It is enough to say at the port of entry
that she or he is not landing at this time and state purpose of visit. But
again - such person in addition to PR visa must have a valid TRV or be from
visa waiver country. PR visa cannot be used for other purpose than landing
as a PR and it is a single entry visa anyway.


author: red-y

subject: Re: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
Yes, I believe this would be possible. I am planning a fact-finding trip to
Canada this month but I'm not yet ready to offically land. Still gathering
info for the goods-to-follow list and I'm not ready to start the 2-out-of-5
clock ticking yet.

I have read previous posts on this newsgroup that it is possible to do
this...you just tell the border agent that you do not desire to land during
this visit.

"Alex O." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Alex

subject: Re: Can a non main applicant come first

text:
"Andrew Miller" <[email]> wrote in message news:XB5Te.217362$9A2.139906@edtnps89...

Thank you very much for the confirmation, Andrew.

I hope your helpful participation in this group brings lots of (well deserved) business your way.

Best wishes,
Alex.


author: Rhiannon M. Adams

subject: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
My niece was born just about four weeks before Maddie.  My SIL began nursing
her and even told me how easy it was before Maddie was born and how she had
never had any pain at all from nursing.  SIL introduced a bottle at about 3
weeks so that she didn't have to NIP and so that BIL could take some night
feeds.  While I didn't agree with it, she was still giving the baby EBM and
it was only a few bottles a day.  Once Maddie was born I began nursing her
in front of the family and trying to support SIL to do the same to no avail.
Oh well :(

SIL commented several times about my niece's belly aches.  I asked if it
could be dairy or something else in her diet and SIL said that her doctor
said no.  This was after Maddie was born and I suspected that Maddie had a
dairy intolerance and my ped had said the same thing to me.  I told her that
Maddie's gas had stopped with my dairy elimination even though the doctor
said that probably wasn't the cause.  She told me that she didn't think she
could cut out dairy even if it was that.  And thus began the slippery slope.
Her ped recommended formula.  Low and behold, baby had a reaction to the
regular formula so they switched to soy.  She was still only getting a few
bottles of formula a day, was getting a few bottles of EBM and was getting
several feeds direct from her mom.  Well of course mixing formula is easier
than pumping so now all of her bottle feeds are formula and she is only
getting nursed a couple of times per day.  I don't think it will last more
than another month.  This does mean that the baby got some breast milk for
almost four months now and it may be as many as five.  But from someone that
had no problems BF'ing, and who told me how her baby just loves to nurse
when she lets her...aargh!  How can you deprive a baby of whats best for
them for your emotional comfort and physical convenience?

Now comes a major pet peeve and mad at myself vent.  Over the holiday SIL
asked me (as I was nursing Maddie) which formula I was using.  I said none.
She asked which formula I would supplement with.  I said none.  She asked
wasn't I going to have to?  I said I hoped not to ever give her formula
(we've already discussed how I plan to let Maddie self wean).  She gave me
this look as if I was a wacko and so I backed down and said, well if I do,
it'll have to be one of the soy formulas since Maddie has an apparent milk
protein allergy.  To her credit she was wanting to tell me the cheapest
place to buy formula.  She wouldn't have to know the cheapest place if she
wasn't using it.

Rhiannon (I love my SIL and my niece...maybe I'm just crazy for letting it
get to me.  Oh, and don't get me started on my MIL's take on co-sleeping)


author: Moe

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
That's such a bummer.  I bet you were looking forward to having mutual
nursing support then she gave up for no reason.  This happened with me and
my best friend - around 4 months she supplements due to her DH wanting the
babe to sleep thru the night and then she tells everyone "I'm too flat, I
don't have enough milk, it breaks my heart to hear them hungry".  This has
happened for all 3 babies, but I try and focus on that they were bf for that
long.  Her sisters all nurse (there's 4 sisters with kids and 5 s-i-ls) and
I wonder if any of them have called her on it, they're just as flat (me too
haha).

none.
I wonder why she asked so many times, maybe it really never occurred to her
that you can just plain old not buy formula and not be tempted or get your
supply messed up.

You can love them and still be saddened by their choices.
Moe


author: Tat

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
(big snip!)

Why do people assume that you have to have formula?

I was nursing Kira at a school production before the summer holiday (she was
about 17 months), and one mum said to me "oh, you're still nursing her",
("obviously" would have been a good response at this stage!) - "you're lucky
to have the milk still - particularly working as well"

??  Perhaps she never quite worked out the supply/demand thing ;-)

Katie
Mummy to Rhian (nearly 6) and Kira (20 months)


author: nicole landau

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
Tat wrote:

because they had to, they had been told they'd have to because their
milk wouldn't last forever. Like there's only so many liters of it in
your breast and when it's gone it's gone.

I get the "well, you'll have to wean soon anyway because you're milk
will dry up" all the time. I always tell them "why would my milk just
dry up? I'm still nursing, and I'm still producing plenty" "But your
milk dries up at some point. It just does." "well, okay then..."
sometimes I wonder how they think cows produce milk...

cu
nicole


author: Lorien

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
Tat said

My husband took our 2mo DS out to town yesterday morning (while I stayed at
home) to go to the bank. While he was in there he got all the usual gushy
comments from the staff and ppl, but on his way out a woman who worked there
stopped him and said "aah Daddys day out is it?" so he replied that I was at
home getting stuff done so she said "Oh, I spose he will be hungry soon" to
which he replied, probably, she then asked "Have you got a bottle for him
then?" and he said  (thru gritted teeth) no and that he was breastfed,
apparantly she looked at him in utter horror! DH said he was disgusted and
have never seen such a look on someones face. He just walked out.
I am glad it was him and not me!

He was everso annoyed about it when he got home. But it does seem like ppl
just assume you are giving bottles/formula.

Lorien & Deckard (16.09.01)


author: H Schinske

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
I haven't nursed in nearly a year, and I can still get drops of milk. If I
wanted to adopt a baby, I bet I'd be one of the lucky ones with relactating.

There were professional wet-nurses who produced milk right through menopause.
Hormones are amazing things.

--Helen, now wondering if breastfeeding eases the symptoms of perimenopause,
not that I have to worry about that just yet, and not that I would go that far
anyway


author: Liz S. Reynolds

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
In article <muxM7.7291$[email]>,
Suzanne Dallapï¿½ <[email]> wrote:

Which begs the question what makes milk from a cow nice while milk from a
person is icky? :*)

-Liz


author: Maevele

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
"Liz S. Reynolds" wrote:

I was just thinking about that yesterday, when a teenage guest in my
home backed away from my fridge in fear, (or something like it) upon
realizing that it wasn't cow's milk in the sippy cup in the door.
 I just laughed at him, and said it was a good thing he realized it
before he picked it up for a swig.


author: Shawna Bowin

subject: Re: Aargh!  (SIL vents - sort of long)

text:
Same reason milk from a whale, cat, or horse is icky.  We don't
generally drink it, so it seems weird.  If our culture used milk from
humans as often as milk from cows, it would no longer be weird.  Some
people think goat's milk is weird, some people prefer it.  It's much
more common than whale milk, though.  :-)

Shawna
Nathan's mom since 4-26-01
http://www.geocities.com/sabowin/bowins.html


author: Carlye

subject: Second bout of mastitis -- what can I do about this?

text:
DS will be five weeks old on Friday.  I had one bout of mastitis,
beginning when he was 9 days old.  I had a second bout (different
breast) beginning this past Saturday, when he was 29 days old.

First, since it's a different breast this time, am I safe to assume
this is an entirely different infection, or could it be the same one?
I was on an antibiotic for 10 days with the first instance.

Second, what can I do to prevent this, other than making sure his latch
is good and my breasts are drained?  I never had mastitis with DD, but
now I've had two instances, both with pretty significant fevers/chills,
and this one with really quite severe pain, and a much, much bigger,
more pronounced, and harder red area.  I'm also experiencing a slower
recovery.

Thanks for the help.

-Carlye
DS 6-2-06
DD 9-29-04


subject: Re: Second bout of mastitis -- what can I do about this?

text:
Chookie wrote:

No pain or discomfort whatsoever.  In fact, even with the mastitis,
breastfeeding is more comfortable than pumping.

I bought some of my bras before, some after.  I have stopped using any
underwire bras and am now opting for cupless "sports bra" type nursing
bras.  I don't -think- that's the problem.  Actually, I wonder if the
problem could be as simple as one night of not getting to breastfeed as
much as usual and having to sleep on my opposite side?  DS was
hospitalized Friday night and I didn't have my pump with me, plus in
order to sleep next to him in the hospital I had to sleep on the
opposite side, which is usually the more engorged side.  Could this do
it?

I will try this.

I'm still somewhat oversupplied, but not too bad.  I try to pump the
excess and usually get no more than 10 extra ounces a day, usually
less.  Granted, I just let myself be a little overinflated at night --
I don't get up to pump in the night.

Thanks for your help!!

-Carlye
DS 6-2-06
DD 9-29-04


text:
PattyMomVA wrote:

Really?  Gosh, I thought mastitis developed much more slowly and
required a topical crack or blockage or something.  You learn something
new every day.  :-)

And thanks, we're pretty sure DS is fine.  He has just had a cough
since birth and now occasionally chokes and stops breathing for a few
seconds.  They're ruled out pretty much everything really, really bad,
and we're down to thinking it's either a very obscure infection (he's
gone through a course of amoxicillin, but they are going to try
zithromax next) or atypical GERD, since he isn't "spitty."  Still, it's
never comforting to have -anything- wrong with one of your kids, and
having him hospitalized, and now having him on an apnea monitor, has
made it all the more scary.

-Carlye
DS 6-2-06
DD 9-29-04


text:
Anne Rogers wrote:

Well, this whole "go braless" thing has kind of made me wonder:
exactly -how- does one go braless when breastfeeding?  During the day,
it's simply not an option -- I have to go to work, and I can't have
"the girls" flopping and spraying about.  Fortunately, the sports bras
I mentioned are super comfy and squash very little.  But even at night,
I leak an awful lot.  Even with towels or a blanket under me, I can
soak through quite easily (and it's very unpleasant to sleep on a wet
towel, too) .  How does one manage without a bra to hold a nursing pad
in place?

I've never had anything wrong, other than cracks/scabs that never did
anything but hurt, other than this mastitis, with either baby.  I only
breastfed DD for 11 months, but still -- 11 months and no problems is a
far cry from four weeks and two infections!

Thanks, Anne.

-Carlye
DS 6-2-06
DD 9-29-04


author: CY

text:
There are lots of things that can help...

1) Don't wear underwired bras, or bras that are too small (go braless often)
2) Don't let yourself get engorged.  If you feel full and baby doesn't want
to nurse, pump a little to relieve any engorgement.

Actually - here is a really good resource...
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/mom/recurrent-mastitis.html

hth

CY
"Carlye" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: [redacted]

text:
yes, pumping a little may help, though I'm sure it will be painful :(.

I just had it about a month ago. Instead of taking antibiotics, I
prefer acetaminophen to relieve the pain and lower the fever.

Hope that helps.

-aurora-
http://aurora.insparenting.com


author: Chookie

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "Carlye" <[email]> wrote:

I think in the first place, I'd be a bit suspicious of his latch.  Are you in
pain/discomfort at any time when he's feeding?

Secondly, I'd suspect that your bra is not a good fit.  Did you buy it before
or after your milk came in?  Most of us can survive on a 'best guess' bra, but
perhaps you can't, this time.  It can be expensive to get one fitted, but
department stores may offer free fittings if you are lucky.

Thirdly, you might want to try lecithin supplements -- some people swear by
them.

Just as a tail-end question: are you very engorged, or still oversupplied with
milk?  I've had this and will advise if you need it.


author: PattyMomVA

text:
"Carlye" wrote and I snipped:

Yes, definitely.  Hope DS is okay!

-Patty, mom of 1+2


author: Kim E

text:
Sorry if this is a repeat of info already passed on, but there is
a link between anemia and recurrent mastitis. If you think you
may be a little anemic, you could try to eat more iron-rich foods
and supplement with a tablespoon or 2 per day of blackstrap
molasses (that helped me reduce fatigue from borderline anemia.)

-kim

"Carlye" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Anne Rogers

text:
hmm, it depends on your size, but I always find that kind of top squashes
the breasts, perhaps in a more subtle way, but squashes non the less. Do you
wear it at night, perhaps you could cut that out if you do.

Actually, I wonder if the

absolutely, which hopefully means this is a one off (or rather a two off!)

if it's a blocked duct that turns into mastitis this has a good chance of
helping, if not it probably doesn't

have you had any blocked ducts at other times that have cleared without
getting infected?

Anne


text:
"Carlye" wrote and I snipped:

Kellymom says that milk statis/restricted milk flow is the primary cause of
plugged ducts and mastitis.  The site also says that mastitis can come on
abruptly.

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/mom/mastitis.html

Yes, I'm sure it's scary.  It sounds similar to the coughing/choking that DD
had from about 7 to 9 months when she was diagnosed with hyper-reactive
airways, a mild form of asthma.  She would cough, cough, cough and then not
be able to breathe in for a couple of seconds.  Appropriate nebulizer
treatments cleared it up, although we had repeat issues whenever she got
congested over the next couple of years.  It's awful when you know there's
something going on with your baby, but the doctors can't tell you what it
is.

Take care,
-Patty, mom of 1+2


text:
In article <[email]>,
 "Carlye" <[email]> wrote:

And at an ABA meeting I heard that there seem to be two types:  the kind you
mention, where bacteria get in from outside, and another type related to
inflamed tissue within, commonly related to engorgement or bruising.

Good luck -- hope you get a diagnosis soon!


text:
well if they are not restrained, they may well leak less as they have more
room to expand, plus you can change the towel/nappy every time you feed, it
might be worth gritting your teeth against it because it's less unpleasant
than mastitis! As for day time, well depends when you get dressed and when
you get undressed, you can get dressed for the day later if possible and
similarly some people get in to PJs quite early, I also would always take my
bra off if I napped in the afternoon, so even if you do wear a bra when
dressed you can probably make that be less than 12 hours. You are saying
squash very little which is different to not squashing at all my nursing
bras do not squash one jot.

well that's lucky, I had a bout of mastitis that hospitalised me with number
1 as well as endless weight gain issues plus thrush, but at least thrush
that cleared up with cream, I thought it could only get better! I was wrong
I had mastitis, though nowhere near as bad and with my history I didn't wait
in getting to the doctors and we hit it with a high dose of multiple drugs,
I also had thrush which was stubborn and needed the oral stuff, I've had the
mystery black nipple and all the way through a baby who just does not want
to turn her top lip out and as it's an abnormal latch error it's not been
easy to fix and she still does it occassionally, oh and I had a cyst on my
nipple, but it was too small to aspirate but big enough to be a problem!

Anne


text:
"Carlye" wrote and I snipped:

There are some products that actually prevent leaking, I think by holding in
the nipple.  They stick to your breast, so I wonder if you could use them
without a bra.  (I don't have experience with this type.)  Check out
LilyPadz http://www.lilypadz.com/index1.html.  There's another brand, but I
can't remember the name.  Maybe someone else can help.

-Patty, mom of 1+2


author: Mike Jacobs

subject: Re: Please advise re "libel per se"

text:
On Sep 8, 8:41=A0am, [email] wrote:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."    Clinton,
W.J., 1998,

But seriously, it _is_ possible to take a sentence out of context that
uses the present tense verb even though the context of the topic under
discussion occurred in the past, or supposedly will occur in the
future (as in speculative fiction, or an essay on futurism).  Big Bill
was technically right in making the above statement, despite being
hairsplitting and not very credible in the context of what he was
talking about.

"Napoleon is sending his troops to Russia for a winter holiday."

"The car of tomorrow is capable of running on industrial sludge and
puts out no pollutants."

The truth value of the statement is predicated on the time frame
_intended_by_the_author_.

ate
ing
,

Assuming the author of the statement intended to refer in each
statement to the exact time when each statement was made, I don't
disagree with that.   But intent of the author as to what he meant
would still be an issue, unless that issue were conceded.


subject: Re: Please advise re "libel per se"

text:
In misc.legal.moderated Mike Jacobs <[email]> wrote:

I was wondering when that would come up<g>

This one does imply a future tense in the "car of tomorrow" but also
shouldn't use the word "is" but, instead, the phrase "will be." But yes,
statements can be taken out of context. That doesn't mean the truth of a
statement ever changes, however. The statement, in the context that it was
made, doesn't change its truth-value.

But, again, that time frame doesn't change (although, if you use improper
English, such as in the "car of tomorrow" one, the time implied isn't always
"right now.")

I don't disagree there. I was simply disagreeing with the other person's
statement of how the truth can change. If you take the statement in the
context made (and even in the "car of tomorrow", there's an implied or
contextual time frame, even if it's a vague "sometime later than the
present") the truth of the statement will never change, even if someone
ELSE'S statement in the same form might have a different truth value (due to
a different context.)


subject: Re: Please advise re "libel per se"

text:
On Sep 10, 7:33 am, [email] wrote:

That's one way to phrase the same thought, but I disagree that my
sentence is in any way grammatically or syntactically incorrect
although I am referring to a future situation, not one that exists
today.   The use of a present tense verb in a context where its
meaning clearly refers to a past of future time is one common and
stylistically standard way to add credibility and persuasive impact to
a statement.  In fact I try to always use the present tense in opening
and closing statements at trial; it puts the jury hot into the heart
of the situation you are describing, as if they were really there
themselves, instead of having them feel they are watching TV or some
other cool, detached medium from a remote distance of time.

Correct, we agree on that.  All I'm saying, and I think you agree, is
that we have to look at the whole context to determine that truth
value, and cannot rely on possibly inaccurate assumptions when looking
at the isolated statement out of context (such as the assumption that
"is" always refers to the present moment).

So you agree with me that it is the time frame
_intended_by_the_author_, not the time frame
_understood_by_the_recipient_, that determines whether a particular
statement, in the context in which it was made, was true or false
(putting aside our quibble over whether a present tense verb can have
a future-tense meaning in context).
 --
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult your own lawyer in a
private communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685      (fax) 410-740-4300


subject: Re: Please advise re "libel per se"

text:
In misc.legal.moderated Mike Jacobs <[email]> wrote:

Yes. I never really disagreed there. What I was disagreeing with initially
(and I think it got lost in the shuffle) was the other person saying "the
truth changes." The truth of a specific statement made by a specific person
at a specific time never changes, even though the same set of words spoken
by two different people at two different times can have two different truth
values.

I.e. If you said, in 1960, "Kennedy is dead" (and you meant, in the context,
that "on this date, Jan 1st, 1960, Kennedy is currently dead") then that
statement was false and would always be false, even though I could say right
now "Kennedy is dead" and it be true. The facts never changed and the truth
never changed (as the other person said it could.) Your statement and my
statement were never the same to begin with.


author: doubter

subject: Andrew Miller & Other Experts, Please Help.

text:
I had finished my interview at Detroit Consulate and was successful. I
had paid the ROLF of CDN$ 1950 for the two adults (my wife and I)
mentioned in the application. I now have 2 issues:

1. Even after 3-4 months, I have so far not received any acknowledgement
   from the Consulate, or receipt of the fees remitted.

2. My wife and I had received the medical forms, but delayed our
   medicals since my wife was pregnant. This delaying was deliberately
   done as advised by the Visa Officer during the interview. After my
   wife delivered a baby (boy), I informed the Consulate about this
   without any delay. On May 31, 2002, I sent copies of the baby's birth
   certificate, passport details, required number of baby's photographs,
   and a bank draft of CDN$ 100 as the child's processing fee in order
   to get the child's medical form. These must have reached the Detroit
   office in the first week of June. Till now no reply, or response has
   come from the Consulate. As per the new rules, was it necessary that
   I must have sent CDN$ 150 instead of CDN$ 100 for including the child
   in the application and issuing his medical form? Iam aware that new
   immigration rules came into effect from June 28, 2002 onwards only,
   while all the documents I sent to Detroit will have reached the
   Consulate several days before this deadline.

Now not seeing any reply from Detroit (it is almost two months now),
Iam very much worried what is going on with my application. The
on-line status on the Internet does not give any relevant information
other than what I know. Could you please consider this case and advise
what must be going on and whether I have made any mistake from my
part. If any mistake has occured, what corrective action can be taken
to hasten the case.

Kindly reply at your earliest convenience.


subject: Re: Andrew Miller & Other Experts, Please Help.

text:
Andrew Miller & Jim Humphries, thank you for your responses, but you
never answered my questions whether the amount I sent to Detroit was
sufficient (or, deficient) or not. Please address these issues in my
originating post.

How does it affect if I send a friendly reminder to Detroit Consulate
enquiring about this and my present status? Please advise.


author: Andrew Miller

text:
Visa posts are not acting immediately upon receipt of any additional
information from applicants - your file has been most likely scheduled for
another look at certain date and nobody will look at it earlier. But even it
was looked at shortly after you've sent everything it still takes at least 2
months or so to have such info processed and acted upon. You have sent
additional info less than 7 weeks ago - it would be rather rare surprise to get
any answer within 2 months. Be patient...


author: Jim Humphries

text:
All visa offices have been very busy with the new Act coming into force
and may not have gotten around to your application yet.  Its a shame
that there should be unnecssary delays and it doesn't help with your
planning but that is the way it unfortunately is.
Jim Humphries, former visa officer

doubter wrote:


text: You have submitted the correct amount required at that time.


author: William F. Hummel

subject: Re: Will Bob Dole become a Gold Bug?

text:
George Matthew Regnery ([email]) wrote:
: [email] (Matt Kennel) wrote:

: >And why should economic growth be limited by the amount of nuclei
: >with one particular charge that we can mine out of the ground?

: The reason that the gold standard continues to be advocated by some is
: that gold has value -- there's a limited amount, and people want it.
: Currently, there is nothing that backs the value of a dollar or most
: other currencies.
-----------
Well, nothing other than a 7 trillion dollar economy.

William F. Hummel


subject: Re: Evolving words was: BF "Nazi's" grr...

text:
Wow, that was a loooong time, Suzanne. ;-)

Hey, I expected some long pissy rant.  What happened?  You said that you were
going to piss us off!  : )

But seriously, we all should think hard and come up with an apt (and less
contentious) nickname for the ultra-zealous pro-breastfeeding individuals.

(Sorry, but I can't come up with anything right now, as I am listening to my
DD's kids tape playing "There was an Old Lady who Swallowed a Fly")

Amy


author: JoAnne Clark

text:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 01:39:08 GMT, "Suzanne Dallapï¿½"
<[email]> wrote:

Not me, Suzanne!  Your post was well-reasoned and made a ton of sense.

Apparently your spell checker knows what's up   ;>

JoAnne
Mommy to:
Gabriel 5-23-98
Laura 3-1-00
-------------------------------------------------------
 "Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits."

-Mark Twain


author: Julia

text:
"Suzanne Dallapï¿½" wrote:

Yes, exactly.  One who resembles a Nazi is not simply a zealous advocate
but a murderer, a racist, an evil being.  That's what the term means,
and that is why many of us do not appreciate it being trivialized.
Thank you for posting this.


author: image

text:
Wonderfully said Suzanne!
It reminds me of other slang words i've heard younger people (usually
teenagers), use as a term of greeting their peers in the US, eg. dog, etc..
I think maybe we all did something like this but anyway...
Now I certainly would not be doing this and I would definitely try to
encourage my children not to use these terms in that manner.  But, I accept
that words evolve and often we have to look at how they are presented and
the intended meaning.  Now, I would not expect another adult to address me
or my children in this manner but would I blink an eye if hearing it during
a dialogue between two teenagers, probably not and in conversation, would I
suggest to another youth not  to address my child that way?  Maybe or maybe
not, it depends.
Whether we like it or not the meaning of words change; do we have to like
it?  No.  We just don't use it and we try to correct others when convenient.

I think I might understand where Shell was coming from with regard to not
apologizing.  I think she now understands that others may be offended by the
use of the word Nazi.  But, it was not her intention to offend she was just
using it in it's current general context.  There is a difference between
regretting that someone is offended by something you said, which you can
hope to clear up by explaining your intention.  But to apologize might imply
that her original intention was to hurt or disregard what others might feel
by her using this term. Of course this is my opinion.

"Suzanne Dallapï¿½" <[email]> wrote in message
news:0tFS5.16863$[email]...
you,
to
than
really
example
is
how
she
kid
girls'
don't
like
American
might
things,
of
perhaps
from
(and
you
but
find


author: Charlotte Millington

text:
Suzanne Dallapï¿½ ([email]) wrote:
: I'm going to piss off every single person in this thread with this
: response...

Oh GOODY!

: According to my dictionary, the word has two meanings:
: 1. Nazi: a member of a German fascist party controlling Germany from 133 to
: 1945 under Adolf Hitler.
: 2. nazi (not capitalized): one who resembles a Nazi.

So the question is: what exactly does one have to do to resemble a Nazi?

(You don't really have to answer that.)

: example.  Refrain from using the term yourself, and gently correct people
: when you hear them use it.  If the original offender doesn't get it, perhaps
: someone else will.  And maybe the original offender will get the point
: anyway, after a while.  Small steps, people, not anger.  (Someone once
: mentioned here that the term "squaw" was derogatory, and now I refrain from
: saying it.  Just do the same with "Nazi.")

Fine advice, Suzanne.

: Did I sufficiently piss everyone off?  Quit bitching about this.  Shell (and
: anyone else with that mindset), put a little more thought into the terms you
: use, and when you have been told that it offends, please respect people's
: feelings.  People who are offended, gently correct the users of the term but
: also accept that it is a part of our vocabulary now.  Those of us who are
: confused about its use in conjunction with "breastfeeding" just have to find
: an alternate way of expressing the term and use it often enough that
: hopefully it will catch on.  Now everyone go to your rooms.

That's it?!

Suzanne??

Is this a troll?

C'mon, Suzanne, you can do better than that.  You want to get me all
geared up for a really good Suzanne-style bludgeoning and then you offer a
cute story and some reasonable advice?!

*sigh*

You've been typing while nursing, haven't you? Talk about a let-down.

Charlotte


author: Shell

text:
image <[email]> wrote in message
news:8vh2lm$2pts$[email]...
the
just
imply
feel

Yep.


author: Oranse

subject: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
Bill O'Reilly must be so mad. No, not because of Billorys Book, but because
Ludacris has the #1 movie in America!  LOL

Question: Does John Singleton know how to direct those car chase scenes or is a
2nd unit director calling all those shots and Singleton is shooting the dialog?

Did anybody see this movie? It sucks. But for 16 year old boys its pretty cool.
Local Homegirl Eva Mendes shaking the Miami Mami booty is worth matinee price.
Paul Walker sucks. Tyrese was pretty funny. The Anime chick was different to
look at.

Neal Moritz is underrated.

Oranse


author: Clay Heery

subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
I just saw the first "Fast and Furious" on cable tonight, and my first resposne
to Oranse's post was "What dialogue?"

I found this movie to be disturbing on several levels; one, that it took THREE
credited writers to make it (and NOT as I assumed, one slobbering retard), and
two, about 80% of the audience who saw it left saying to themselves, "I can
write a movie like that."

And they would be absolutely correct.

--C.


author: nmstevens

subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
[email] (Clay Heery) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

What seems strange to me is the notion that you would think that
having three credited writers would somehow suggest that it would
likely be better than having a single writer involved, as if the more
the merrier.

Generally, lots of writers suggests a troubled project.

And, of course, it's not true that the average audience member could
write a movie as good as "Fast and Furious" -- I don't even know that
you could write a movie as good as "Fast and Furious" -- as bad as it
is. Not "good" as in a quality piece of work -- I just mean "good" in
the sense of possessing those qualities that get all of the people who
are in a position to say yes or no in the tortured process a project
follows on the way to the screen to say "yes."

Believe me -- despite what you may think, it's not that easy. It's
hard even to get a crappy movie made.

NMS


author: Blair P. Houghton

subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
Clay Heery <[email]> wrote:

And they would fail to appreciate the answer to the second
question:

Could you get such a screenplay greenlighted?

				--Blair
				  "Not unless you're John Singleton's
				   loose-assed maid."


author: Alan Brooks

subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
"nmstevens" writes:

...and yet they come through for us time and again.

There's a neat little column by David Mamet in the latest "FilmMaker"
magazine.  It's a classic Mamet-style rant on how "the standard
screenplay-vetting system works perfectly... if you want bad films".  He
talks about how writers are willing to work on spec--i.e., for free--and
therefore studio execs develop a resentment to paying anything for scripts
when writers themselves set the value of much of their work at zero.

Mamet says his friend Art (I assume that's Art Linson) suggests that every
studio executive should be forced to write, direct and produce a five-minute
film and submit it to a jury of his peers.

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

 -- Apply the ol' Capra touch to this...


subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
Alan Brooks <[email]> wrote:

Mamet's output is part of the reason I consider many of
my story ideas trite and fit only to be festooned with
stilted dialogue.

Too bad he doesn't have that inner critic.

				--Blair
				  "Would that he were to."


subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
"Alan Brooks" <[email]> wrote in message news:<bcai4o$6sj$[email]>...

That strikes me as a remarkably odd position to take -- given that,
down through history, the majority of novels, and a substantial
portion of stage plays, were written in precisely this way.

How many of Tennessee Williams plays were written "on spec?" Or
Pinter's?

A lot of successful novelists these days work out deals where they get
paid up front on the strength of an outline and a few chapters -- but
rarely will a beginning writer get such a deal, and historically, many
writers never got them. They wrote a book, they sold it, they sat down
and wrote another one. They wrote a play, it was produced, they sat
down and wrote another one. No guarantees. No money up front.

In large measure, it depended on the time, the place, the demand, and
the preferences of the individual writer.

And the reality is, rants aside, the overwhelming majority of movies
don't come from spec scripts. They are commissioned works either based
on works from other media, like books, or articles, or comic books,
real life events, or remakes of earlier movies, or sequels, or
original scripts based on pitches -- exactly what it seems that Mamet
is supporting.

I sold a spec last year not because I didn't "value" my work, or my
time, nor because the people who buy from me didn't value either. Nor
did I write it because I couldn't have pitched the idea for it.

I did it because I'd been through the process of pitching an idea,
selling it (essentially on the strength of two lines) and then writing
it, and I found that process extremely instructive, in a negative
fashion.

That's because, once you sell it, as we all know, you no longer own
it. The difference is, until you sell it, you do own it. And so, when
I sit down to write a script, it's mine. I can do anything I want with
it. Until that moment when somebody buys it, it's completely and
totally my own. It absolutely reflects and embodies what I and I alone
want it to be.

But when you sell a pitch, the simple fact is -- you never own it.
When you sit down to write, you're not writing your own script. You're
writing something, from the get go, that is already the property of
somebody else -- not just one somebody, but the producer with whom you
made the deal, and the studio who is financing him -- both of whom may
have very different and sometimes mutually exclusive views as to what
they want the finished product to be.

It isn't at all like getting an advance on a novel and going off to
write it. You write the treatment -- they have input. And before
you're done you've written three treatments, four treatments, five
treatments. And on and on and on, at every step. It's completely
different from the process of writing a spec script where you present
them with a finished product which they may hate (in which case they
don't buy it), or they may love, in which case they may -- but in
which, thank God, they don't have the sense of creative ownership,
which they tend to develop almost instantaneously when a script is
developed from a pitch.

That is why, basically, I don't pitch any more on my own ideas. I'll
pitch in the sense of pitching on projects that people bring me. But
on my own ideas -- I only write them as specs. Because, at the very
least, I know that for the length of time I'm writing them, they will
be mine. For a brief window, at least someone, somewhere, will be able
to see my idea, my sole and singular version of my idea, as opposed to
some compromised, cobbled-together version based on lots of "input"
designed to permit the maximum number of people to feel creatively
invested in the project (i.e., to like the taste better by getting the
chance to piss in it).

NMS


subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
"nmstevens" wrote:

scripts

Of course you're right (don't you get tired of that?), but I think Mamet has
a valid point as well.  Movie producers have a different relationship to the
stories they buy than do the publishers of plays, novels and poetry.
Throughout history all artistic writing has been done on spec (i.e., for
nothing).  The risk of wasting ones time on an enterprise that nobody aside
from those who owe you love or money--and who ever owes money *to* a
writer?--will enjoy, has always been bourne by individual artists.

But in traditional publishing the reward for that risk is that you, the
writer, are the star.  Aside from profit, the sole end of book publishing is
to promote you and your work.  Your work is an end-product.  You are a sole
creator.  Publishers coddle their favorite writers, they nurture them.  They
want them to develop and grow.  There's concern for the writer's career,
health, longevity, output and, sometimes, their happiness.

The goals in movie-making are much more diffuse.  While the story is the
heart of any good project, history has conspired to keep the creators of
those stories well out of the line of profit, stardom and personal concern.
The person who might buy your screenplay isn't looking to make you a star or
to put you on the speaking circuit.  Generally that person doesn't give a
shit about you; they're looking past you to the sort of credit they'll get
for the movie, the big-name stars they'll attach, the A-list director
they'll form a relationship with... the writer is just this sort of
inconvenience you go through to get the movie underway -- sort of like the
post-op bandages you have to wear while recovering from facial surgery.  You
don't want people to talk about the bandages you want them to admire the
line of your new nose.

Mamet's point is valid because there's a world of difference between spec
writing for movies and other sorts of spec writing.  The risk/reward ratio
is much different, the respect you garner is different, and most
importantly, the relationship the writer bears to the finished product is
different.

And of course there's the problem that screenplay writing appears to be much
easier than novel writing; there's a history of screenplays being cobbled
together by secretaries ("here's the novel, here's the sissors; turn this
thing into a screenplay before I get back from New York...") or of
screenplays being hacked out even as the movie is being shot.  Those stories
conspire to demean the profession and lessen the respect screenwriters are
given.

Another measure of the difference between a novelist and a screenwriter is
that the novelist isn't expected to learn the publisher's special language
and arcane format in order to get his work read.  In the publishing world,
any readable font and format will do, right down to pen-and-ink, as long as
it's legible.  A publisher doesn't care if you can't tell your verso from
your recto, or don't know how many sheets make up a signature.  In
screenwriting, if your font's off by a half-point you've already got a
strike against you.  It's a sign of the power-relationship that one side has
to kow-tow to the other side's rules.  I'm not saying it's unfair, it's just
the state of the game.  I accept it, and as long as I want to write
screenplays I'll format them as conventionally as I can.  But it is
significant.  Publishers too have to wade through slush piles of sophomoric
writing, but it's not lampooned the way screenplay reading is.  Publishers
don't bite the hand that feeds them.  Studios do it all the time, and
Hollywood writers have simply learned to keep current on their tetanus
innoculations.

I've snipped the rest of Neal's post, with all the usual interesting and
valuable observations.  I've been thinking about this a lot lately and have
come to realize that I'd been casting my ideas into screenplay format a
little too quickly.  I have some ideas that aren't really suited to movie
format, and once I stopped thinking about them in that way I saw them take
shape as solid character-based stories that might work as short stories or
novellas, so that's where I'm going with them.  Sometimes the most difficult
straight-jackets to shed are the ones we stuff ourselves into.

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

 -- "It's sort of To The Lighthouse meets
     Being And Nothingness, but contemplative."


author: Gene Harris

subject: Re: 2 Fast 4 Furious Styles

text:
[email] (nmstevens) wrote:

There's an interesting discussion going on at the Wordplay site about
screenwriters retaining copyright of their scripts, the possibility of that
ever happening, the "One Writer" idea, and other related issues.  Very
thought provoking.  http://www.wordplayer.com.

An interesting aspect that's hardly ever talked about.  Thanks, Neal.

Gene