author: Leonard De Fazio Jr.

subject: Censored Research???

text:
Submitted for your investigation:

1. Article in Sience News Date March 30, 1991 page 207
   Tile: Shocking treatment proposed for Aids

   "Zapping the Aids virus with low voltage electric current can nearly
eliminate its ability to infect human white blood cells cultured in the
laborotry reposts a research team at the Albert Einstein College of
Medicine in NYC.
   William D. Lyman and his colleagues found that exposure to 50 to 100
microamperes of electricity-comparable to that produced by a cardiac
pacemaker-reduced the infectivity of the hiv virus by 50-95 percent.
Thier experiments described March 14 in Washington D.C. at the first
international Symposium on Combination Thearpies, showed that the
shocked viruses lost the ability to make an enzyme crucial to thier
reproduction, and could no longer cause the white cells to clump
together-two key signs of virus infection.
  The finding could lead to tests of implantable electrical devices or
dialysis-like blood treatments in hiv-infected patients.  Lyman says.
In addition, he suggests that blood banks might use electricity to zap
hiv, and vaccine developers might use electrically incapacitated viruses
as the basis for an aids vaccine.  For scientists working to create
contraceptive devices that repel sperm with electricity, the new study
also hints at a lifesaving side effect protection against hiv."

Note on the above article--Robect C. Beck phd has gone on record in his
presentation at both Global Scienctist Congress's last year as stating
that it took him 3 years to obtain a copy of the paper mentioned above
which evidently he found deleted from the official proceedings of the
above symposium, it does in fact exist.

Also look up besides the above article in the library a similar
article--Longevity Magazine--Dec. 1992 page 14
"Electricuting the aids virus  A safer yet blood supply"
   This article give the same information as above as well as claims by
Dr. Lyman and his codiscoverer, Dr. Steven Kaali, M.D. also of the A.
Einstein Med school.--"At the A. Einstein College of Medicine in NYCm
Steven Kaali M.D., has found that most of the aids viruses in a blood
sample will lose their infectious capability after being zapped by a
very low-level current. Repeated exposure appears to leave blood
virtually free of HIV, as well as hepatitis--Without harming blood
cells.  Kaali cautions taht it will take years of testing before a
virus-electrocuting device is ready for use.  But, ultimately, he
predicts it could be used not just to purify blood, but to treat poeple
with AIDS, by channeling their blood out of the body, exposing it to
virus-killing current and then returning it. "By lowering the viral
count," he says, "we may be able to lengthen and improve the quality of
AIDS patients' lives."

 Now at many large city and university library look up these 2 u.s.
patents, both granted to Steven Kaali, M.D.

us patent # 5,188,738--filed for: 11/16/1990, granted 2/23/1993
us patent # 5,139,684--filed for: 11/16/1990, granted 8/18/1992

Go ahead search for them from the AIDS PATENT database of the official
US Patent and Trademark Office web site.  About 6 months ago both were
available for public downloading, within the past 8 weeks both have been
deleted and are no longer available.!!  How curious!!
Yes both do exist and can still be found on microfilm for
reading/copying by the public at libraries as described above..
Further copies of both are available via phone and mail order dircctly
from the US Patent office for $3 a copy of any patent--telephone
number  800-786-9199, 24hrs a day automated system order direct with a
touch-tone phone and a major credit card.. Also by mail order from the
patent office, same price,,use the 800 number to order a free booklet
with full info on ordering patents as well as a full list of all public
and university libraries with patents on microfilm.

Sorry I do not have access to a scanner or I would have attached the
above articles and both patents.

I quote from patent #5,139,684 granted to Steven Kaali M.D. date Aug,
18, 1992--page 1

" using novel electrically conductive treatment vessels for treating
blood and/or other body fluids and/or synthetic fluids with electric
field forces of appropiate electric field strength to provide electric
current flow through the blood or other body fluids at a magnitude that
is biologically compatible but is sufficient to render the bacteria,
viruses, and/or fungus ineffective to infect normally healthy cells
while maintaining the biological usefulness of the blood or other body
fluids"--this patent describes a small dialysis type machine he is
quoted about inthe 2 above magazine articles.


author: Garrett Lanzy

subject: Re: Censored Research???

text:
In <5ghvao$[email]>, "Leonard De Fazio Jr." <"[email]"@iinc.com> writes:

Hate to throw a little wrench in your conspiracy theory, but....

1.  These patents ARE in the AIDS patent database.  Filling in "kaali" in the
search field of the AIDS Patents Search Page (URL
http://aids.uspto.gov/access/search.html) and hitting the "Conduct Search"
button results in exactly these two patents.

2.  Full copies of both patents are available online on publically-available patent
databases.  It took me about 5 minutes to find the following URLs:

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5188738
http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5139684

3.  Each of these patents make 31 claims, yet neither the terms "HIV" nor "AIDS"
appear in *any* claim of either patent.  One would think it would have been
in the inventors' best interest to make a specific claim about HIV if their
research had shown significant effects on the virus.  (To make a patent as
valuable as possible, inventors normally list specific (dependent) claims which
cover any possible use of the invention.)  That sure makes it sound like the
inventors were not too sure of the use of these devices with respect to HIV/AIDS.

- Garrett Lanzy


author: rjs

subject: Re: Censored Research???

text:
Censored Research?  If you can find these cites with so little difficulty
then others can too so they're hardly censored.  Ignored, perhaps,
censored no.

Evidently somebody is working on this.  IF it can be demonstrated to be
of some benefit _in vivo_ and IF it can be shown to be (relatively) safe
and IF it works in humans, somebody will start using it.  Until then,
your point is, what?

A fun game you can try someday is searching patents for perpetual motion
machines.

Have fun - rjs


author: Gustav Torenski

subject:
"MY LIFE & 1,000 HOUSES" (www.1000Houses.com )...Makes Money For This
	Russian!

text:
Great Read! Made me really think. Made me make money! Read the 400+
pages in 2 days. Can't  put the book down. Entertaining and
Educational. Better value if you order from the author's website (if
you want the CD's). I'll post later but I'm excited about getting out
and using these ideas to increase my own bank account.

Good Luck!

Gustav


subject:
Re: "MY LIFE & 1,000 HOUSES" (www.1000Houses.com )...Makes Money For
	This Russian!

text:
Here are some pictures, images, photographs...http://tinypic.com/r/
29uzthj/6

I forgot to post. Good reading to you!!


author: Lawyerkill

text:
On Jan 2, 4:07�pm, Gustav Torenski <[email]> wrote:

Sounds like a gay porn movie


author: Jeff Potter

subject: Use home/un/charter concepts for college degree?

text:
Can anyone tell me why the discussion/logic of homeschooling,
unschooling, charter-schools, diploma-testing and tax-funds portability
changes from K-12 to college?

I've been thinking about and trying to discuss this for awhile now and
have made no progress.

Right now it seems like college degrees are a racket. They aren't based
on standards that anyone can test for then get the degree (by paying for
just the test).

Why aren't other educational ideas also applied to the topic of advanced
college degrees as well?


author: Cindy Cotter

subject: Re: Use home/un/charter concepts for college degree?

text:
**Can anyone tell me why the discussion/logic of homeschooling, unschooling,
charter-schools, diploma-testing and tax-funds portability changes from K-12 to
college?**

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I talk about homeschooling at all
is compulsory education.  I'm required by law to be certain that my daughter is
educated.  If it were not for attempts to stay in compliance with the law, I
wouldn't bother with the language of homeschooling at all.  We'd learn or not
learn and do or not do and pursue degrees and diplomas or not based on interest
and need.  Once you pass the age of compulsory education, there isn't any real
need to talk about homeschooling, so far as I can see.

You seem concerned that if you simply learn what you wish as an adult, you
won't get a degree.  Many homeschoolers,too,  eventually confront the question
of a diploma.  Most states don't grant them to homeschoolers.  Private schools
(some homeschoolers use the private school laws in their states) can grant
their own diplomas, but they're not likely to be worth a whole lot.
Homeschoolers end up finding alternatives to the traditional diploma.  For an
adult such an alternative might be an apprenticeship or some entrepreneurial
undertaking.

As for tapping into tax money, there's not much tax-fund portability for most
homechoolers, though some can work through a public charter school.  An adult
who's looking for public funds to support some sort of project should probably
be thinking in terms of grants.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


author: Chris Barnes

text:
Jeff Potter <[email]> wrote:

Actually, I know some people (very few) who DO homeschool through
college.

You're asking the wrong question.  IF the purpose of the collegate
education is purely for information/instructional purposes, then there
is no reason whatsoever that any number of other methods besides
"accredited institution" will work fine - or better.

But if the purpose of the collegiate education is to give a piece of
paper that has acceptance by future propsective employers - well, then a
degree from an accredited institution is pretty much required.

"Start with the End in mind" - one of Stephen Covey's 7 Habits.


text:
"Daisy Witherell Dï¿½ry" wrote:

There is some lack of uniformity, but it seems like there should be a basic
standard as well and if there is one then a tested degree could be confered
for the price of a test. Revolution.

There is the GRE for evaluation of preparedness for grad school.

There are actually many college-level certification exams.

The concept could be expanded to confer a degree thus opening up high ed
truly.


text:
Cindy Cotter wrote:

Yes, I'm blending several issues---incl. charters and funds-portability.

I'm not worried about 'granting' of paper but of being able to earn it, test for
it. Highschool has the GED so you can get an official diploma without going to
school regardless of your education background, homeschooling or what have you.
College should have a basic-standards equivalent to the GED.


text:
Chris Barnes wrote:

Sure. Or we can work on expanding what can officially be called an
accredited institution, I suppose.

I don't mind giving respect to an institution or even to a piece of paper.
I just don't want it to be part of a racket. Is there any way to achieve
this? Even partially?

Actually, the institution's end in mind is tax money.  : )

If a paper can help with a job or give you bragging rights about passing a
certain barrier, then let's open it up. Don't let a racket control who can
get the paper...and the money behind it all.

Also, if this process somehow devalues the paper, great! Why should we let
anyone have leverage over anyone else? --Especially over their tax money.


author: Gregory Shubert

text:
"Jeff Potter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I call "credentialism" the discrimination based on whether a person has a
diploma or not, regardless of how well they can do the job.  I think
credentials are sometimes misued by human relations departments to CYA on
hiring decisions  ("but he/she had a degree; too bad it didn't work out").
It is much easier to check a credential than to determine what a person
actually knows or is capable of doing.


text:
Jeff Potter <[email]> wrote:

It's a matter of trust - for the employer.

Which would I - an employer - trust more when I am about to hire someone
for a job which requires "college level education":
  a) the person who says they've been self taught
  b) the person who has a piece of paper from an institution I respect

It's B everytime.  And it's not "me" saying so - it's the law of supply
and demand (and they call it a LAW for a reason).  The institutions that
have the highest level of respect produce graduates with a higher
demand - and demand higher salaries.

Absolutely.

You want to change this - you don't change the education system.  You
change the demand for college level homeschool students.

But what is YOUR end (as a student)?


text:
**I don't mind giving respect to an institution or even to a piece of paper.
I just don't want it to be part of a racket. Is there any way to achieve
this? Even partially?**

Sure.  Start your own college.  Run it however you wish.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
Gregory Shubert <[email]> wrote:

Godd point.

Fwiw, I am not unsympathetic to "the other side".  For example, I
*refuse* to get an MCSE, CCNE, etc because I believe them to be
worthless pieces of paper.  But some employers just seem to love
requiring them...


text:
**It is much easier to check a credential than to determine what a person
actually knows or is capable of doing.**

I used to be a statistician.  It was typical for me to be working with people
who knew little about statistics -- that's why they hired me in the first place
-- but it also meant they had trouble judging my work.
Once I analyzed some data for a woman who brought the printouts home to mull
over.  She came back the next day and told me her husband had looked at them
and was very impressed with my work, but she couldn't explain exactly why
because she hadn't understood what he was saying.  She knew enough to interpret
the results I got, but had no insight at all into what it took for me to get
them.

In a job interview I was once asked how I'd feel working in an environment
where I was the only one who knew how to do what I was doing.  Would I be
comfortable in that situation?  Clearly these folk knew the score.

I used to want to quit my job and go into consulting.  It was a completely
practical idea except for one thing.  I didn't have a graduate degree.  Without
that I wouldn't be able to convince potential clients that I knew as much as my
competitors who did have degrees.  After all, the clients didn't know a factor
analysis from a multiple regression.  How could they judge my ability other
than by my credentials?

Credentialism is a pain in the neck, but I can see how it comes about.

In this case -- for statisticians -- it would be possible to devise a decent
test so that folk who pass it wouldn't have to go to college if they didn't
want to.  But I'd imagine it would be a professional group that would construct
and administer the test and certify the results, not a college.  I'm all for
tests of that sort.

 I wish we had them for k-12 as well.  The GED isn't quite the same.  After
all, a kid is supposed to be in school (or some legally approved alternative)
for many years (12 in California) whether he's intending to take the GED or
not.  You can test out of the last two years of high school by taking the
California High School Proficiency Exam, but it would be cool if you could test
out of the lower grades, too.
Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


author: Dennis Hancock

text:
"Chris Barnes" <[email]> wrote in message
news:bb0mat$86q$[email]...

And why does that school with the highest respect produce graduates with a
higher demand?  Because of a proven track record of results from those who
have degrees from that particular institution.  It's no more a guarantee
that the candidate possesses the same abilities as those who came before
him/her, but it DOES tend to narrow the field of possibilities to those who
SHOULD produce those results.

I would guess that a candidate not possessing a credential or degree from a
respected institution would be more pressed to show results from previous
clients in order to gain the trust of the marketplace.

Actually, I tend to agree with his statements as many colleges put out
mediocre students and it becomes a simple scam for who has paid for the
degree, which adds weight in the business world over one who doesn't have
such a degree, even from a less respected institution.

Your end as a student should not be to rip off the taxpayers, but to develop
into a commodity to increase your potential earnings in the private sector.


text:
Cindy Cotter wrote:

Well, that's the idea. Get tax funding. Compare my grads to theirs by some
standard. There are official, respected exams out there. There are a jillion
variations on the GRE. There are professional certification exams galore.

Offhand, I'd think a college with a dozen profs in a metro area, say, could
produce 30-100 kids a year who really kick butt on the cheap. As it were.
Something like that.


text:
**Well, that's the idea. Get tax funding. Compare my grads to theirs by some
standard.**

Hmm.  If I'm following you here, this doesn't sound so much like a college as
like a testing program of some kind.  Perhaps you'd have more luck approaching
it that way.

You could charge a testing fee to the student, apply for government or private
grants, and solicit industry sponsors for you to provide tested job applicants.
 You would leave it to the applicant to figure out how to acquire the expertise
necessary to pass the test.  Learners could go to college, serve an
apprenticeship, study at home, or have a brain transplant.

You could start small, with tests in one field of study or practice, then
slowly expand till the tests you offered covered a broad range, similar to the
options offered at a university.  If you could do most testing over the net,
you'd save a lot of overhead and extend your reach.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
That's partly it. Testing for a degree. Also opening up the way that one prepares
to test for the degree and getting tax funds to do that prep.

Cindy Cotter wrote:


text:
**That's partly it. Testing for a degree. Also opening up the way that one
prepares
to test for the degree and getting tax funds to do that prep.**

My guess is that if you took care of the first part -- testing -- the second
part would take care of itself.  A whole cottage industry of career prep
alternatives would spring up like dandelions.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
The 'catch' is getting the tax funds to do the prep.  I'm afraid we already
have an 'industry' surrounding education which pretty much has a lock on
public funding, and that will take some doing to make inroads into.

"Jeff Potter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
prepares
some
college as
approaching
private
applicants.
expertise


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
second

I severely doubt it Cindy.  We have a double edged sword here.  Tax monies
for education are pretty much gobbled up by the huge beauracracy we have in
public education, and they wind up using that same public funding to help
defeat any measures which might tend to cut into their piece of the pie.


text:
Dennis Hancock wrote:

This is why I include the Charter School concept. They've already succeeded
with the funds-portability concept. They've made HUGE inroads against the
system. Both homeschoolers and Charter Colleges should press this concept to
the max. We should be able to use our own tax money for our own education.
Period. I gather that the Charter Concept involves setting up a public
institution according to minimal guidelines which then receives tax money. No
reason why some home/unschoolers or the college concept couldn't do this as
well.


text:
**Tax monies for education are pretty much gobbled up by the huge beauracracy
we have in public education, and they wind up using that same public funding to
help defeat any measures which might tend to cut into their piece of the pie.**

I'm getting the sense that you're committed to a government solution here.  You
want public money to fund your alternative, yes?  And when you talk about
defeating measures, you're talking about public policy meausures?  Legislative
bills of some kind?

If you really want to borrow a page from the homeschooling movement, maybe you
should think more in terms of solutions outside government.  Many (not all)
homeschoolers resist the concept of government help in an attempt to avoid
government strings.  And when it comes to legislation, the kind most
homeschoolers seem to prefer is a hands off policy -- not help so much as
freedom.

Yes, there are public homeschooling programs, and they work well in some cases,
but I doubt that many of them were thought up in the homeschooling community.
It's my general impression that they are attempts by the public system to woo
homeschoolers.

I'm not trying to say it's wrong of you to go after public money and
legislative assistance, but you seem to think the chances of getting it are
slim.  Why not look for alternatives?

Cindy Cotter
Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
Jeff Potter <[email]> wrote:

I don't know how it is where you are, but here the "charter schools" are
a part of the system - down to being run by the local ISD.


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
beauracracy
funding to
pie.**
You
Legislative
you
all)
cases,
community.
woo
are

No Cindy, I'm not looking for a government solution, in fact, quite the
opposite.  I am only looking at realities which currently exist.

Private enterprise has to have it's own funding in order to reach the
masses.  What I am saying is that while public schools have a monopoly on
public funding, this puts the private schools at a definite disadvantage in
the startup game.

What I am saying is why the monopoly?  If education is a foremost concern,
then why not do what they do in every other instance where private sources
can be obtained?  Government obtains goods and services from the private
sector in every other instance, why must it be the sole provider in the
education  field?

Note that in every State that has attempted to get a voucher type program
started, whereby public funding can be used in the private sector for
education, who has put the biggest efforts into defeating these bills?  The
public education beauracracy and teachers lobbies.  Why must we spend
taxpayers monies to defeat any alternatives to the current situation?


text:
"Chris Barnes" <[email]> wrote in message
news:bblaou$hgn$[email]...

We face the same situation in California and have encountered a lot of
problems with the funding, and other issues, but they do offer the
beginnings of an alternative, as many do allow quite a bit of flexibility in
how and what one teaches to their children.


text:
**What I am saying is why the monopoly?**

I would end the monopoly, if that were my goal, by reducing government
involvement in education altogether, not by expanding it it include college to
an even greater extent than occurs now.

**Government obtains goods and services from the private sector in every other
instance, why must it be the sole provider in the education  field?**

That's not the way it looks to me.  Government doesn't buy my food for me or
have my house built for me, and they provide medical care to a very limited
extent. Other services -- like police and fire -- are usually provided directly
by government.  Once again, if the goal is to reduce governments role in
education, then expanding that role in the realm of higher education doesn't
make sense.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
Jeff Potter <[email]> wrote:

Thanks but no thanks.

The gument doesn't need to monitor anything I do.


text:
**From the vague basics I know about it for Michigan, anyone can set up a
charter if they meet the basic standards. The district monitors them. Quite
remotely from what I gather.**

California has homeschooling charters.  The charter law here is already less
lenient than in other states and is becoming stricter all the time.  It's hard
to set up a school and the oversight is increasing every year.  There was a
story in the local paper (LA Times) recently about a failed attempt to set up a
charter here.  The hurdles were too great, and the regulation too stiff.

**"Charter schools were supposed to be different," he [Mark Satterlee, former
LA teacher who finally gave up his effort to open a local charter] says. "But
with all the regulations and obstacles, you have to wonder: 'What's the point?'
"**

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-me-charter1jun0100142
3,1,2671009.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Da%5Fsection

One of the reasons for greater oversight was a series of articles claiming folk
were pulling down state money and spending it with little or no accountability.
 One school that was criticised was a homeschooling charter that was giving
liberal credit to unschoolers.

That's California, but apparently the trend toward greater regulation is pretty
widespread.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
Cindy Cotter wrote:

They would go for it because it would be much cheaper.

Opening access lowers costs.

I don't suggest ADDING anything but only to allow existing funds-portability.

I suspect that Michigan's $7K per K-12 kid goes a LOT farther in a
charter/homeschool setting than in a regular institutional setting.

Institutions that don't give good bang for buck would experience student flight
and budget cuts.


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Quite
less
hard
a
up a
former
"But
point?'
folk
accountability.
giving

While Im sure there are some that abuse the situation, making the need for
'some' oversight necessary, I find it amusing that the beauracracy would
consider people were wasting the funding, considering the amounts allocated
for educational materials and all.

We've seen our particular charter cut in half the monies available for
educational materials the second year of operation, then that was halved by
cutting off second semester funding.

Kind of makes one wonder how frugal parents who actually care what their
child learns can take a much smaller budget and do a better job with what
they have than a huge system filled with a lot of waste.

pretty


text:
Me:  ** I would end the monopoly, if that were my goal, by reducing government
involvement in education altogether, not by expanding it it include college to
an even greater extent than occurs now.**

Jeff:  **They would go for it because it would be much cheaper.**

You mean government would like to give up public education and let folk pay
their own way or do without school altogether?  I don't think so.

**I don't suggest ADDING anything but only to allow existing
funds-portability.**

I guess I don't get it.  I don't understand what funds you want to move or
where you want to move them.  You want to take public money out of public
institutions of higher learning -- like UCLA, for example -- and.. do what with
the money?  Not offer a college education because you're skeptical of college,
right?  Just what DO you want to fund?

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
"Jeff Potter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
college to
funds-portability.
flight

My point exactly Jeff.  We let the laws of supply and demand determine which
schools suceed and which fail.  Currently, only the wealthy can afford to
send their child to private schools.  By allowing private schools the
availability of public funding (our own money to begin with), we only allow
more parental choice in where they choose to send their children.

This is not more governmental involvement, but only the use of 'some' of our
own money to be spent where we choose to spend it.  For those that choose
the private sector, so be it.  For those that choose the public sector,
thats fine too.  But it will be the SAME amount of funding, just spread out
a bit more to see if the private sector can make better use of their portion
and actually benefit those who choose to take advantage of it.


text:
**While Im sure there are some that abuse the situation, making the need for
'some' oversight necessary, I find it amusing that the beauracracy would
consider people were wasting the funding, considering the amounts allocated
for educational materials and all.**

Charter schools were receiving full funding per pupil (though not startup
costs, which is a problem).  The complaint was not that parents spent too much
on educational materials, but that the school received more than it should.
It's reasonable to expect that a homeschooling charter would need less funding
per pupil since the single largest school expense -- salaries and benefits --
has been slashed.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
Cindy Cotter wrote:

Well, that might happen someday but as long as govt is seen as part of helpful
community activity it probably won't. Unless activity becomes defined as concrete
things like roads and emergency help. (I won't include 'safety' under that
umbrella because I've never seen a vaguer or more intrusive concept! The safest
place is a prison and they know that!)

Yikes. I thought I was being clearer.

I'm saying to apply the charter concept to college.

Right now theoretically the charter concept is cheaper because a kid can become,
say, a viable citizen in less time at less cost via charter than via regular
schools. $7k/yr/kid in K-12 Michigan can get a kid much more customized teacher
attention and activities via the charter concept than via a regular school where
it just gets him into a hectic 30-kid classroom where one size has to fit all and
even that doesn't prep him much.

I'm saying to tie the $ to the kids. In college, too. So don't take the money out
of UCLA. Redefine how it is already there. It's there in terms of the kids. Those
who stay stay with their tax-money. Those who leave aren't "taking" anything away
from UCLA but their bodies and the tax money that goes with them. So no one takes
money from UCLA, but kids who don't want to go there go somewhere else. The money
goes where they go.

I'm only skeptical of how college is run, not that higher learning is helpful. I
believe college should teach important untestable higher learning (for kids who
are right for scholarly learning) as well as whatever else a society decides it
should teach. And whatever that is, the society should put into writing so that it
can't be abused as a racket. A BA in English should be composed of a bunch of
specific things and anyone who meets the standards for those things should get the
BA. For the price of the test not some deceptive price of the knowledge, since
knowledge doesn't have a price. Especially not in terms of a "credit" (read "a
blackmail").

Now, college, voc-tech, work-life, military, even the penitentiary should all
teach higher life lessons as well. They should give opportunity for higher
learning via their special pathways as suited to the temperments involved. Some
are more or less structured in various ways based on the people involved. Plain
old work-life or daily life without a job should have its own structure for higher
learning for those on that path---and it does for cultures that are sustainable.
It's just that in college and voc-tech and where papers and tests are involved,
there should be basic standards open to anyone to meet which are kept free from
racketeering by public intervention. Obviously, without govt regs testing, which
is usually privatized!, would become a racket itself equal in size to today's
institutional ed. "They" always try to optimize their advantage as far as
possible, to keep us under them. Checks'n'balances are needed.

...And if the prep for these diplomas is tax funded in one place that should be
defined on a per-student basis and made portable so that those free students can
pick any place that meets a basic standard they would like to study including the
home and have their funding go with them!


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
government
college to
pay
with
college,

Cindy, my points were directed at education at all levels, not just college.
However, let's consider if someone chose to attend a trade school, or a
private school dedicated to computer technology, why not use some of our tax
monies in that area as well?

Let's take a closer look at a few realities.  Today, a Bachelor's degree is
almost worthless.  Many students who attend colleges would probably do much
better in the job market to attend a specialty school and obtain a more
directed education in any of the technical areas which have a need for
skilled employees.

We have put so much effort into seeing that all students have the
opportunity for a college education, that we've actually wound up making the
traditional college education practically worthless.  I think it opens the
door that we need to look at alternatives.  No society can be completely top
heavy with managers yet lack those with the techinical expertise to keep up
with the ever growing advances of technology.


text:
**This is not more governmental involvement, but only the use of 'some' of our
own money to be spent where we choose to spend it.**

I see this a little differently.  The hangup in my mind is what we mean by "us"
in the phrase "our money."  Government is generally in the business of making
things run as smoothly as possible on a broad scale.  If the economy needs
machinists, they will subsidize education to provide machinists, but this isn't
a matter of a hopeful student deciding to use some of his tax dollars to
fulfill his personal dreams (though it may feel that way to the individual
student), it's a matter of the larger society deciding there's a need for
trained machinists and spending some of "our" money to meet "our" public needs.

This isn't just a quibble.  Jeff (have I got the name right?  I forget names.)
has talked about a B.A. in English as one of the degrees you should be able to
get with tax money but without going to a state supported college.  I think
he'll have trouble convincing policymakers that there's a pressing need for
English majors so great that we must come up with innovative ways of providing
them beyond offering English as a major at state colleges.  I just don't see
that happening.

And that's where my reservations about Jeff's notions, so far as I understand
them, come in.  I have nothing at all against alternative approaches to
education and job training, including approaches that are tax-supported, but I
can't quite see government financing many more kinds of educational paths than
there are now unless theres a _societal_ need, not merely a personal desire.
The "us" in question is the larger society, not the individual.  It _isn't_
"our" money at a personal level, only "our" money at a public level.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
It's also 'reasonable' to expect that the regular institutional ed overseers of
any alternative would work as fast as possible to DESTROY that alternative. I
mean, duh.

Obviously, they'd want to have the charter have to obey their exact same set of
reg's, policies, standards, unions, buildings.

Then they'd want to add even more to DESTROY THEM.

This is political. Thus the goal is DESTROY YOUR ENEMY.

According to them.

I'm threatening their lunchbox. And grab-bag. And parachute. Their whole
worldview and paradigm. Just by existing.

But my only motive is my kid and my only tool is my taxes.

Let the chips fall where they may.

But they won't hesitate to put me in jail or worse to keep their jobs. And not
only that. To keep their worldview. To keep GROWING their worldview. It must win
for them to feel right, to be able to keep on doing and growing what they do. Is
there a single regular institution that would be happy to STAY AS IT IS? And let
growth go elsewhere? Or not even happen? Ha! Not in the modern paradigm. That's
why they call it a cancer.


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
for
allocated
much
should.
funding
benefits --

Cindy, that may be true on paper, but our particular charter school has
wound up with 'missing funds' two years in a row.

Whan a parent is notified that they have xx number of dollars to use for
ciriculum, spends less than half that, then is informed that somehow, it's
gone.. then the next year is cut in half, then suddenly, no money left for
second semester funding, then it's not quite as black and white as equal
funding per pupil.  I think this particular case is due to poor and
ineffectual management and handling of the funds by the school.


text:
You're talking about two things.

1) Anyone who qualifies for a BA in English should get a BA whether they've
taken college classes or not.  That could be arranged by having some body agree
on how to determine who's qualified and then becoming the official
diploma-granting agency -- without teaching.  Catch is, there'd be no
guaranteed funding for whatever alternative route you chose to acquire the
knowledge to be certified.  That brings us to your second goal...

2. You want government to fund students to pursue ANY educational plan of their
choosing which might presumably lead to their eventually being able to meet the
requirements for a diploma.  Up to some maximum dollar amount, I suppose?
Something equivalent to what the state would kick in if the kid were accepted
to a state college?  Is that it?  Who gets this money?  Kids would apply the
way they now apply for college and would be funded based on the likelihood of
their having been accepted at a state college?

Is that it?

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
our
"us"
making
isn't
needs.

No Cindy, it is not larger society deciding the need, it's the public
educational system that's doing all the deciding, and using 'our' money to
make their decisions.

Why do we allow such a publicly funded beauracracy to grow to those
proportions in the first place?  Can anyone possibly believe that every
single child should or can be afforded and is able to obtain a college
education, or that society demands a college degree, when reality dictates
that there are many who cannot achieve this, and there are many technical
areas of expertise which demand just as much a need?

names.)
able to
think
for
providing
see

Ahh.. he'll have trouble convincing policymakers is the key word.  Who are
those policymakers?  Please note that it is the educational system itself
that is heavily involved in opposing any changes to the status quo.

When one considers the prestige that many private technical schools achieve
in their fields (one has a much higher chance of obtaining say an IP
position with MSCEE certification than even a masters degree in computer
science), is it that unthinkable that private educational facilities might
not (they generally do already) outpace state funded educational facilities
given the chance to expand thru the use of 'public monies' just as the state
run system has?
understand
but I
than
desire.
_isn't_

Cindy, in case you haven't noticed, there 'is' quite the societal need for
technical expertise in many fields, and it's growing beyond our means to
address it, and far beyond the means of the publicly funded educational
system.

If an  individual can make a choice to attend a state funded university,
shouldn't they have the same opportunity to attend a private university
which offers what they choose?  It really goes less further than what many
voucher systems have proposed, which allow students their choice of paths to
follow, and a portion of their tax dollars directed to it.  And since many
voucher programs proposed allow 'less' funding than is granted to public
schools, for every student that leaves the public system, there is actually
more money left over to address those needs.


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
our
"us"
making
isn't
needs.
names.)
able to
think
for
providing
see
understand
but I
than
desire.
_isn't_

While I'm not arguing that one get a BA in English without attending
college, we actually are pretty much heading in that direction right now.

One can take the high school proficiency exam and get his high school
diploma without finishing the required courses, and the exam itself must be
passed without regard to other achievements while in school.  Doesn't this
suggest either a failing in the school, or a means around traditional
methods of graduation?

The point is that the public education beauracracy has a stranglehold on
'how' we perceive things, and more often than not, their 'fixes' have been
nothing more than band aid effect to cover up the shortcomings.

We already have private colleges which grant degrees.  IF they are doing the
job better than the state universities, isn't this where taxpayers money
should be directed.


text:
Cindy Cotter wrote:

They already spend billions of taxes on helping kids get BA's via funded univ's
and state colleges.

I'm saying to keep the path but don't let a pre-existing institutions determine
how kids get there. Right now the loop is closed and circular in favor of current
state schools.


text:
PS:

What I mean is that any alternatives will have to fight just as hard to keep their
STANDARDS realistic as to get the right to be alternative in the first place. The
standards are the second front.

Which is why colleges are the biggest racket. There is no standard. It's
carteblanche for those guys.

What the degrees relatively command in the market is circular logic. Doesn't apply.
Isn't a standard. It's a shellgame. That's outcome-based not standards-based. Keep
giving the big bux to the prestigious school because its grads earn the most $
because it's the most prestigious because it gets the most money...? Huh? How does
one compete in THAT loop? The standard for the relative value of a diploma
is...totally relative. The fixed standard for a diploma...doesn't exist. Not yet.
Like we were saying, I don't need a *Harvard* bachelor's, I just need a bachelor's.
Tell me what I need to know to get one. Now. Or else. I vote you out. The next
revolution. K-12 was the 80's. College is next. ...Of course we have to keep
fighting for K-12 or we'll lose it again. Whew! That's what happens when other's
livelihoods are YOUR purse, I guess.

I mean, if a cop's only livelihood was ticket money (that especially is if he
didn't have a life outside his job) he'd #1: want to write tickets for anything,
#2: want to do this full-time or even overtime. So he'd have to be constantly
fought on two fronts. Limit what he can do and how much he can do it. If he
actually had a life, had a culture, that he SHARED WITH YOU, he wouldn't have to be
fought at all.

That's why this is fundamentally a cultural problem. Laws are side effects. Working
to change them won't really change a thing and only participates in the problem.

Business knows this. Which is why the number rule of business is: the business of
business is culture.

Which is why business has to always be subordinate to culture. Or else it will
destroy it.

Whew! This was just going to be short.


text:
"Jeff Potter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
overseers of
alternative. I
set of
not
must win
do. Is
And let
That's

That seems to be the thing with public charters Jeff.  Many school districts
make them jump through hoops to meet their charter requirements, then set
unrealistic demands in order to let them keep their charter.


text:
** I think this particular case is due to poor and ineffectual management and
handling of the funds by the school.**

Well, ya, that's what I'm saying.  Charter school oversight has been increasing
not because parents have spent too much on educational materials but out of
fear that the schools have either been poorly managed or have been ripping of
the tax money for illegitimate expenses.

Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
they've
agree
their
meet the
accepted
the
of

Cindy, I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but we actually DO have
such a plan here in Southern California.  There is a highly respected trade
school in Norwalk which gets tax dollars for training  in machinist fields,
CNC Programming, Master Cam and several other technical areas.  My company
in fact, participates in this and assists employees with part of their
funding, the rest is picked up by the tax payers.

Why still hold with the old line thinking of 'bachelor's degree' etc?  There
are many other degrees and certificates which are held in much more esteem
than many college degrees in the technical fields.

A traditional degree did absolutely nothing for me in my particular field,
yet I finished it for myself and my own piece of mind.   As I said
previously, we already have a growing number of 'business management'
degreed professionals, yet very few who direct their efforts into many
technical and scientific areas.  There is, and will continue to be a high
demand for those areas and we should at least take a look at the possibility
of making those areas as accessable to those who choose those fields, as we
do the college degree.


text:
Cindy Cotter wrote:

Right. But note that I only ask for allotments of current funding for this prep. I
say it's fine to have the kids pay for their own testing. The testing agency could
still be private as it is now for so many fields, as Dennis says. Bring higher ed
into the testing field as per other certificates, as Dennis said. Interesting
though the different terms: diploma, degree, certificate. There are indeed
differences between them. College ed even in a 'low demand' BA should essentially
be about creating highly developed citizens of superior judgement via various
pathways. Advanced degrees in these areas should be about becoming a scholar.
College is not at all the same as voc-tech. The saying is that an English degree
preps you to be a teacher of English, but really it doesn't. It's supposed to be a
stand on its own arts development thing, unrelated to economics. Highly developed
English majors (and others) are who DETERMINE what economics MEANS to our culture.
University education is PRIOR TO job concepts. That's why traditionally scholars
are poor. They're dedicated to learning and study not economic engine cranking of
any kind. It's rightfully a monkish life. That's the only way to keep it
independent and prior to other concerns. Otherwise there's no social check and
balance. The business of business is culture. Education is PRIOR to both. In a
healthy society. (Joke's on us.)

I suppose it needs to be a qualifying plan which meets minimum standards of some
kind. A la Charters. I'm not sure how Home/Un fits in but I see all the cause to
push for it and to study its inclusion.


text:
**No Cindy, it is not larger society deciding the need, it's the public
educational system that's doing all the deciding, and using 'our' money to make
their decisions.**

**No Cindy, it is not larger society deciding the need, it's the public
educational system that's doing all the deciding, and using 'our' money to make
their decisions.

Why do we allow such a publicly funded beauracracy to grow to those proportions
in the first place? **

We don't merely allow it, we demand it.  We want more services and we also want
government to be accountable for the service it provides.  Bureaucracy is
government's answer to how we can exert public control over government funds.

Government is not going to simply hand out tax money to whoever wishes it.
They're going to regulate it, audit it, direct it... and that means
bureaucracy.  The way to keep control over your money, if that's what you want,
isn't to ask government for more and more, it's to stop giving it to government
in the first place.  Demanding new kinds of schooling from government won't
reduce the bureaucracy, it will grow the bureaucracy.

**Can anyone possibly believe that every
single child should or can be afforded and is able to obtain a college
education**

I don't believe that, but then I'm not the person looking for new ways to grant
degrees to people who haven't gone to college.

**Ahh.. he'll have trouble convincing policymakers is the key word.  Who are
those policymakers?  Please note that it is the educational system itself
that is heavily involved in opposing any changes to the status quo.**

Policymakers who make decisions about education are educators, that's true.
They are also legislators.  They are businessmen who serve on groups like the
Business Roundtable.  They are union reps.  In California they are folk who
vote on propositions.

I understand that the education establishment resists change.  That's one of
the functions of a bureaucracy -- to ensure that vital services don't change
too much too fast, aren't readily susceptible to major manipulations, don't run
hot and cold as administrations change, aren't subject to political pressures
to the extent that they can't hold a steady course.  That inertia has a
positive side.

**When one considers the prestige that many private technical schools achieve
in their fields (one has a much higher chance of obtaining say an IP position
with MSCEE certification than even a masters degree in computer science), is it
that unthinkable that private educational facilities might not (they generally
do already) outpace state funded educational facilities
given the chance to expand thru the use of 'public monies' just as the state
run system has?**

When one considers how being publicly funded has made public schools subject to
government controls and the very bureaucracy you decry, is it unthinkable that
financing private educations with public funds would have the same effect on
private schools?

**Cindy, in case you haven't noticed, there 'is' quite the societal need for
technical expertise in many fields, and it's growing beyond our means to
address it, and far beyond the means of the publicly funded educational
system.**

You keep talking about technical expertise, but Jeff talks about bachelor's
degrees in English.  I don't think you and he are on the same page.

By the way, my daughter has an interest in animation.  I've discovered that
there's a special program offered at Santa Monica College that trains animators
(and others interested in the technology of entertainment:

http://academy.smc.edu/

It was developed in collaboration with local industry leaders who provided
financial support as well as other more valuable kinds of aid, like:

http://vassun.vassar.edu/~lenevare/soc388/philanthropy/philanth6.html

Here's an article giving a bit more insight into the origins of the academy:
**The first-of-its-kind program has attracted 500 applicants worldwide and
attention from Hollywood, politicians, economic development specialists and
educators alike. The academy will train students in computer animation and
visual effects, new media, themed entertainment, and entertainment industry
business.

The funds for the academy, included in the state budget signed by Gov. Pete
Wilson this week, provide a major financial boost to the program and a strong
endorsement by Sacramento. Wilson has pointed to the academy as a model of
public-private partnerships to train Californians for high-paying jobs in an
industry that is key to the state's economic growth.**

http://www.smc.edu/events/pressreleases/1997/august/opening.htm

The point here is that when there was a recognized need for trained employees,
the natural response of MANY, both inside and outside the education system,
seemed to be to work through the public education system.  Years ago I took a
slew of auto repair courses.  At that time a major automobile manufacturer (GM,
I think) had just signed a three-year contract with a local junior college to
provide training to GM mechanics.  Why?  Because they had introduced an
unusually large number of changes in auto design in one year in an attempt to
remain competetive, and now were faced with the need to retrain the mechanics
in their dealerships.  They had their own training facility (in Burbank, I
think), but couldn't handle the volume without expanding, and they didn't want
to expand now and then have to shrink later when the need faded.

What I'm trying to say here is that it is not merely educators who are behind
the changes that go on in public education.

Cindy Cotter
Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


author: Papa Koca

text:
Jeff Potter wrote:

Sorry for coming in a little late in this discussion.  Jeff, are you
aware of Thomas Edison State College as an example?  See here:

http://www.nationalponsi.org/profiles/Thomas%20Edison%20State%20College.htm

Its a method of obtaining a degree via testing as was mentioned.  They
are accredited for that matter.  Is what they are doing something like
what you are inquiring about?


text:
It's probably an unsolvable nut. Should just skip the "tax" step altogether. But
in general it seems good to decentralize disbursement. Except for the corruption
that ensues. Hoo-boy.

Cindy Cotter wrote:


text:
**By the way, my daughter has an interest in animation.  I've discovered that
there's a special program offered at Santa Monica College that trains
animators...**

I should have pointed out, for those of you who don't live in this area, that
Santa Monica college is a two-year, publicly funded, community college.

Cindy
Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


text:
You are still thinking from within the system Cindy.  Government agencies
hand out private contracts for services on a daily basis without all the
additional beauracracies (the existing ones are mind boggling enough).

We already have seen the beginning of what I'm proposing through many
charters, some for profit, others not for profit.  Some compete for public
money while others get their funding elsewhere.

In fact, I've seen the same concerns voiced at LAUSD meetings on charter
approvals, that they sometimes feel they are allowing 'private' charters to
compete with the public schools in the district.  What is wrong with that?

You do 'not' have to set in place further beauracracies to keep minimal
regulations in place, yet allow the private sector to participate in public
funding.  This is the mindset put forth by public educators that they are
the experts and no one else can do the job.  When the entire point is that
many could do the job without being in a fixed mindset.

As for Jeff's talking about bachelor's degree in English without attending
college, how far away from that are we in reality?  When we were in school,
one did not have to take a 'proficiency' exam to get our degree, we merely
had to complete the work and meet the graduation requirements.  How much
different is this from what Jeff is proposing if one can drop out of high
school, take the exam and still get the diploma?

Shouldn't private universities have the same ability to compete for public
funding IF they are doing just as good or a better job than the State
Universities?

The private sector can drain students from the public schools for sure, but
for every student who leaves the public sector, it leaves more funding per
pupil left since every proposal I've seen has allocated about half the
funding required by public schools per student.  One would think that the
public sector would embrace this as a chance to reach more students who
would otherwise fall through the cracks.  But I suppose it's more about
losing their stranglehold on the almighty dollar.
"Cindy Cotter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
make
make
proportions
want
funds.
want,
government
won't
grant
are
true.
the
who
of
change
don't run
pressures
achieve
position
is it
generally
state
subject to
that
on
for
bachelor's
that
animators
academy:
and
industry
Pete
strong
an
employees,
system,
took a
(GM,
to
to
mechanics
want
behind


text:
Dennis, I'm sorry, I'm not following you, I'm not convinced that you're saying
the same thing as Jeff, and I haven't got the time to sort it all out.  I'm
gonna have to pass on this discussion.

Cindy
Cindy Cotter
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
[email]
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/wildgrape.htm
http://members.aol.com/cotter1225/CA-HS-Law.htm


author: Mike

text:
Want the most PERFORMANCE for your computing $$$?

Checkout PC WAY for near WHOLESALE prices!

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/1084/


subject: Quick question on filling in police cert form ...

text:
Please can someone tell me (duh) which box I should tick on the form?

Is it just the "Details of
Prosecutions/Convictions/Cautions/Reprimands and Warnings" or do I tick
the other boxes as well - disqualified drivers, wanted/missing persons,
stolen/suspect vehicles, fingerprints and vehicle owners/keepers?

Thanks.

x


author: Pollyana

subject: Re: Quick question on filling in police cert form ...

text:
Originally posted by Servant24kids
tell me (duh) which box I should tick on the form?
"Details of Prosecutions/Convictions/Cautions/Reprimands and Warnings"
or do I tick the other boxes as well - disqualified drivers,
wanted/missing persons, stolen/suspect vehicles, fingerprints and
vehicle owners/keepers?

Its the one for
"Details of Prosecutions ......" - you don't need all the other stuff.
:)

Pollyana


text:
Originally posted by Servant24kids
down to the police station and they confirmed what you both said.   :o)

to send identification documents or get someone professional to
countersign.  Apparantly, if you go into the police station with the
form filled in and your passport, the on-duty will inspect both, sign
the form and you can take your passport back home with you.
do however recommend you then take the form away with you and post it
direct rather than let it go through their internal mail system.
:o)

Hi,
Would you mind posting which police force area you
are in - cos they all have different ways of doing it. Not very helpful
I know, but some forces need countersigned forms, and some actually
need the documents sent in with the form. If you can post which area
you are in, it'll help people there......

Pollyana

(former police
record checker!)


text:
Originally posted by Servant24kids

Thanks!! Lots of people on here from Essex who might find it
useful!!!  :)


author: Big Galah

text:
Ah, maybe different police forces have different forms, even though
they all access a central computer. Which area is it?

On the Met
(London) application there are 2 boxes - 1. Prosecutions, Convictions
and Cautions and 2. Other than the above - which you need to specify
the information you want.

I ticked box 1. I suspect you'll need to do
the equivalent.

What they're interested in is the Personal Record
category on the Police National Computer.

Hope this helps.

You could
always ask at the station if it's unclear - explaining what you want it
for.

Cheers.


text:
Hi,

Just been down to the police station and they confirmed what you
both said.   :o)

For anyone else at or nearly at this stage, we also
did not need to send identification documents or get someone
professional to countersign.  Apparantly, if you go into the police
station with the form filled in and your passport, the on-duty will
inspect both, sign the form and you can take your passport back home
with you.

They do however recommend you then take the form away with
you and post it direct rather than let it go through their internal mail
system.

:o)


text:
Originally posted by Pollyana
posting which police force area you are in - cos they all have
different ways of doing it. Not very helpful I know, but some forces
need countersigned forms, and some actually need the documents sent in
with the form. If you can post which area you are in, it'll help
people there......

ESSEX

xx


text:
Originally posted by Servant24kids
down to the police station and they confirmed what you both said.   :o)

to send identification documents or get someone professional to
countersign.  Apparantly, if you go into the police station with the
form filled in and your passport, the on-duty will inspect both, sign
the form and you can take your passport back home with you.
do however recommend you then take the form away with you and post it
direct rather than let it go through their internal mail system.
:o)

Apologies for the weird smilies - I seemed to have lost
the selection on this site and when I add my own they come out looking
different.

x


author: Alfred Martinez

subject: FS: Apple PowerMacintosh Upgrade Card, $400

text:
Apple brand Power Macintosh Upgrade card. Turns a 68040 Macintosh into a
PowerMac that's double the original clock speed. Lets you boot as PowerMac
or original 68040 operation. Works with Quadra 610, 650, 700, 900, 950,
and Centris 610, 650. Brand new $400 + shipping


author: PaulKing

subject: NO TEEN AIDS IN U.S.

text:
CAUCASIAN TEEN 'AIDS' CASES (entire USA) BETWEEN July 1983 and December
2001 = 1211 (male and female).
Source: - CDC

TWELVE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN in nearly 18 years or a mere 67 cases a year.

JUST OVER ONE CAUCASIAN TEEN 'AIDS' CASE PER U.S. STATE A YEAR.
HARDLY AN 'EPIDEMIC!
That figure of 1.28 cases per State is lower than gun shotdeaths in the
Mac Arthur Park area of Los Angeles in a single month.
Check for yourself (don't take our word for it) at: -
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1302/table7.htm
IN CONTRAST
In the same period people over 60 (caucasian) had 9,338 cases.
Those old folks must be sex mad - Nine times MORE sex than teenagers.
...or could it just be that 'AIDS' is not an std? Surely not? God forbid!
Perish the thought!


author: GMCarter

subject: Re: NO TEEN AIDS IN U.S.--wrong again

text:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:45:00 -0400, "PaulKing"
<[email]> wrote:

LOL. Repeated again. Like there are only caucasian teens in the US?

And in your odd world, 1,211 = 0 ?

Which doesn't count the number of HIV+ caucasian teens who haven't
progressed to AIDS.

Man. Take a pill. A vacation. Meditate. Something. You're stressing
yourself out and going to have an aneurysm or something.

		George M. Carter


subject: Re: NO TEEN AIDS IN U.S.--wrong again

text:
And in your odd world, 1,211/21 years = 0 in real terms.

UNDER ONE TEEN CASE PER STATE IN THE US PER YEAR.

Yes. I call that ZERO.


subject: Re: NO TEEN AIDS IN U.S.--wrong again

text:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:31:34 -0400, "PaulKing"
<[email]> wrote:

It's not. And gosh, you know that saying 1,211 = 0 makes you?


author: Oscar Voss

subject: AK - State calls off proposed northern access into Denali NP

text:
Alaska DOT&PF has called off a controversial proposed road that would've
created a new northern entrance into Denali National Park.  This had been
one of many road projects pushed by former governor Frank Murkowski (great
"road enthusiast," but he came in third in his party's primary last year).

Alaska's new governor said she didn't have anything to do with this
cancellation.  But don't be surprised if there are more project
cancellations, as Alaska DOT&PF rethinks projects that had been priorities
of the old admininstration, but not necessarily the new one.

"State halts road project into Denali National Park,"
http://www.adn.com/front/story/8576775p-8469814c.html


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: AK - State calls off proposed northern access into Denali NP

text:
[Mr. Voss:]

This sounds plausible.  Somehow I appear to have missed the second
advertisement.

I had a quick look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

It seems she is determined to be a clean broom, so Murkowski probably
wanted to leave the Juneau-Lynn Canal highway in a position where Palin
would find it much more expensive and politically difficult to stop
instead of proceeding with construction.  I haven't confirmed that
Palin even supports the highway in principle, and although she is
considered very friendly to transportation and public works, it
wouldn't surprise me if her priorities differ significantly from
Murkowski's.

There is also the question of a connection to the continuous North
American road network.  AIUI, BC has traditionally been more willing to
build a road connection to a Lynn Canal highway than to the alternative
Bradfield Canal proposal.


text:
[Mr. Voss:]

This article is interesting.  Among other things, it mentions the
Juneau-Lynn Canal highway, for which I downloaded plans some months
ago:  "Palin in December canceled a Murkowski contract to build a
one-lane 11-mile gravel road out of Juneau. Murkowski had signed the
contract even before obtaining required permits as a way to accelerate
construction of a highway along Lynn Canal."

The project has long since disappeared from Alaska DOT&PF's bid
calendar, but the associated files aggregated to 410 MB (the plans
themselves came to 232 sheets or 136 MB) and the engineer's estimate
was upward of $70 million.  I hadn't studied the project closely, so I
assumed it had received all the usual environmental clearances and was
being built largely with federal funds.  Naturally I am nonplussed to
hear that this is apparently not the case.

I'm not sure the Anchorage 'Daily News'' account of it is fully
accurate, however.  According to the plans, the actual length of the
project is 23.4 miles, and the "pioneer road" section is only a small
part of the total.  The typical sections show that the pioneer road
(with minimum 11' graded width) is to be built within the same rock cut
as the eventual finished road; i.e., it is to be at a higher elevation
than the eventual finished grade, which will need additional excavation
in the future.

Other material on the Web suggests that the only outstanding permit was
the Corps of Engineers 404 permit.  Apparently a decision was made to
use concrete for bridges (144' spans) in order to avoid the higher
costs associated with steel.

The procurement notice can be found here:

http://notes4.state.ak.us/pn/pubnotic.nsf/32d5d580fdaa9e15892567850064eb8b/19227b053cc767268925717f0075b12b?OpenDocument

The process of gathering local concurrence produced these documents:

http://www.juneau.org/assembly/agendas/2006/2006-07-29/2006-DOT_LCH_local_concurrence.pdf

http://www.juneau.org/plancomm/documents/070606_000.pdf


text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I haven't checked, but considering how hastily it was done, the second
advertisement probably never made it to the Web.

The Lynn Canal highway would be entirely within Alaska, connecting (via
shuttle ferries) to existing highways from Haines and Skagway through BC to
the Alaska Highway in Yukon.  So BC needn't lift a finger for the Lynn Canal
project.

OTOH, the Bradfield Canal project (which would connect Wrangell AK, but not
Juneau, to the continuous North American highway network) would require a
new road through BC.  Aside from environmental issues and lack of obvious
benefit to BC, the potential to help Wrangell's port compete with the
deep-water harbor at Stewart BC would also be a concern.  Earlier proposals
to connect Juneau via the Taku River corridor, which also would require a
new road through BC, also have gone nowhere with the BC government.


text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Sounds like the plans you pulled were for the second-to-last version of the
project, which went out to bid as a 23-mile project.  Problem was, only
about $30 million in state funds (and no federal funds) were immediately
available for the project, and as the engineer's estimate predicted, the
bids for the 23-mile project came in well above those available funds.  So
the project was hastily downsized to 11 miles and re-bid in the final days
of the Frank Murkowski administration, as a desperation move just so that a
contract -- *any* contract -- could be signed before the new governor took
office.

I don't completely understand why Murkowski was so desperate to get started
on the Lynn Canal highway before Sarah Palin took over as governor,
especially since she's also a conservative Republican who AFAIK supports the
new highway.


author: Gray Shockley

subject: I'll be an old woman before I get out

text:
LA Times:
---------------------------------------

Income Tax Protester Gets 10-Year Prison Term

# Lynne Meredith, who sold books and gave seminars on tax
avoidance, is sentenced for conspiring to defraud the IRS.

By David Rosenzweig, Times Staff Writer

Lynne Meredith, a flamboyant tax protester whose
bestselling books and seminars promoted the notion that
paying taxes was voluntary, was sentenced to more than 10
years in federal prison Monday for conspiring to defraud
the Internal Revenue Service and failing to file personal
income tax returns.

Four associates who helped Meredith operate her Southern
California-based We the People organization received
sentences ranging from 20 months to five years in prison.

"Your honor, I'm not a conspirator. I'm a
constitutionalist," Meredith, 55, told U.S. District Judge
Dean Pregerson as she fought back tears.

Meredith, who once drove a Corvette convertible with a
vanity plate reading TAXREBL, said she still believes the
federal government has no power to levy taxes on private
citizens.

She insisted that she was simply exercising her 1st
Amendment right to free speech and was not responsible for
her clients' failure to pay their taxes.

"I didn't tell anyone, 'Don't file a tax return,' " she
said. "Obviously, people are going to make their own
determination."

Pregerson called her a charismatic figure driven by
"misguided passion."


author: S. Olson

subject: Re: I'll be an old woman before I get out

text:
Who was that bonehead Professional Deadbeat who dared--several
times--for the IRS to come and arrest him if it didn't agree with what
he was doing? Boy, he sure stopped singing THAT tune after after the
IRS busted Meredith's ass.

S. Olson


text:
You know, I went looking because it bothered me and I think it was Bob
Schultz, not Rose, but I am not sure..

S. Olson


text:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:48:28 -0500, S. Olson wrote

Goodness! Are you talking about Larken Rose, aka Barkin'
Larken", aka the Rosie Spincter, aka Dumbass, aka tax
evader, aka tax cultist?

That's going on right now.

Hell, if he gets what he deserves, he'll be an old woman
when she gets out.

Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional.


author: Webmaster

subject: Coming June 1st : Pricedrop.com - Where prices drop every hour on every product

text:
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on your first order.


author: William C Biggs MD

subject: Lantus finally arrives....

text:
Finally.

Our office received some startup samples of Lantus insulin on Wednesday, so
Aventis is really shipping the product. After all of the missed launch dates
we had seen in the past, I wasn't holding my breath.

We have started some type 1 patients on it already, many of whom were
wanting to try it as an alternative to Ultralente. It's way, way too early
to see how it will compare with the available human insulins.

I suspect that there will be a push to use this as a basal insulin for type
2's as well, with a bedtime Lantus combined with daytime insulin
sensitizers.

My info is that shipments to pharmacy wholesalers begin next week, and local
pharmacies should have supplies on hand for a May 22nd "official launch"
date.

After Aventis gets the inhaled insulin approved (along with Pfizer and
Inhale) next year, they would have a complete solution...inhaled insulin
with meals, and Lantus once a day.

IMHO, Novo and Lilly have a real competitor now.  I'd like to see some price
competition start to break out. I'm getting a record number of complaints
about insulin pricing lately, particularly on Humalog and Humalog Mix.

William C Biggs MD


subject: Re: Lantus finally arrives....

text:
Thank you for the info on Lantus.  Please keep us posted on patient results.
It is time for Humalog to drop in price and stop the necessity for a scrip.
(that won't happen soon.)
Lurline

William C Biggs MD wrote:


author: Andy Rodemann

subject: Re: Lantus finally arrives....

text:
Hello all,

William C Biggs MD schrieb:

wow, finally. It has been available here in Germany for some 9 months or
so.

I think that lantus may be more of a benefit as basal to type 2 than
type 1s. I have heard of type 1s who tried it but are not very happy
with it, but I have also heard of type 1s who are very happy with it. My
personal opinion is, that due to the straight action-curve it will
actually be more beneficial to type 2, but the futuere will have to show
that.

I am still very sceptical towards the inhaled insulin, as dosage to me
seems still very inaccurate and what about illnesses of the respiratory
system? I still do not believe, that these will not affect dosage
either. I guess I stick to injection/pump.

best wishes
andy r.


author: Toto

subject: What lesson did you hope to teach us?

text:
Forwarded from a friend.  I am compelled to share this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Leonard Pitts / Miami Herald
Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001

We'll go forward from this moment

It's my job to have something to say.

They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles
the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears
sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words
that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this
suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable #######.

What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family
nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous
emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a
ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by
the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because
of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement.
We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We
struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the
overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and
loving God.

Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us
weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that
cannot be measured by arsenals.

IN PAIN

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're
still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still
working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from
some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy
novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable
final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of
terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history
of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us
fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last
time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt
and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage,
terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will
bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of
justice.

I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I
think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with
dread of the future.

In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be
done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened
security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward
from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too.
Unimaginably determined.

THE STEEL IN US

You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of
our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On
this day, the family's bickering is put on hold.

As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans,
we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the
case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange:
You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't
know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.


author: P Madison

subject: Re: What lesson did you hope to teach us?

text:
Yea yea just stop making the juicy threats and take some action for
fucks sake. I dont think the group who did this to your country cares
a damn if your going to review your attitudes towards foriegn policy.
It seems they were merely testing the water for future attacks, this
is terrorism and be assured that where there are deaf ears the voices
will only get louder. This type of post is sad in itself, its smacks
of frustration and carries the tone of a child being smacked for the
first time as a teenager. I hope the US takes the huff and puff and
does something usefull and not foolish, measured and not hot headed.
Any lessons to be taught will be carried out by the NATO alliance,
which means consultation. Western allies, my country included are not
giving you a blank cheque, so any US fantasies of rains of fire and
wiped out lands, WW3 are best dropped now. This is not a war, it is a
terrorist conflict, your intelligence agencies are still not clear
about who the target is and that target may be so snake like that you
never get a grip on it. If you believe you can go in there with
missiles and nukes and end the problem you are so wrong. Granted if
this were a state, then maybe it would be feasible. However while
there is sufficient spirit and motivation, and individuals willing to
sacrifice themselves for there cause you and the rest of the world
will be under threat. A military solution alone will not stop global
terrorism so lets hope your leader can enter dialogue aswell as
playing Rambo.

Alan Bates

Alan Bates.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:40:23 GMT, [email] (Toto) wrote:


author: Paul A. Thomas

text:
Toto <[email]> wrote

Thanks Toto.  There are, if nothing else, great writers in this world.  The
stories and commentaries I have read are the greatest I have ever seen.  It
is a shame that it has taken this tragedy to shine the light on, and bring
out the best in us.


author: William P. Brown

text:
P Madison wrote:

Do you remember how long it was after Iraq occupied Kuwait before Desert
Storm? It was around 6 months. Do you remember the extensive air
campaign prior to the ground assault? Do you remember how many
casualties we took? Very, very few. Do you remember how many the Iraqis
took?

Lesson: Don't expect action by the U.S. today or tomorrow. Do expect,
when action comes (a week or 6 months from now), the effective
destruction of the enemy at a relativly low (but likely worse than the
'Storm) cost to our armed forces.

Be patient.

Regards,
Bill


text:
This situation i hardly comparable to Iraq. Your target is not a
state, merely a terrorist oraganisation and if American popularity
around the world is anything to go by then quite a few terrorist
organisations. You talk about effective destruction of the enemy, do
you mean in a similar fashion to your last assualt on Bin Laden? You
do not effectively destroy terrorist organisations, they are like
worms you can cut them up as much as you like but they will grow new
heads each and every time. The only possible way the threat to your
country or any Western country will cease is when the motivation for
attack has been removed. As we have all witnessed these guys will go
to great lengths to carry out there actions, and  there are thousands
across every country of the world itching to replace with many more
being born everyday.
 I dont know what dealings your country has had in the past with a
persistent terrorist groups on your mainland but it seems your
understanding of this type of conflict is blurred with that of a state
vs state war. Even if you could use words such as harbouring to expand
and make static your enemy you still have the problem of um lets say
neighbouring countries,mountanous terrain, threats from further
terrorist organisations, maybe the same one, they do afterall have
substantial links in Canada. Not only this, if you were to create a
conflict similar to Iraq, the spotlight is on and the rest of the
Western world is in no mood for similar levels of civilian casualites
over this. No one doubts your country will take action and i dont
think the timing is relavent at this stage. I do think the rest of the
world is expecting clear evidence and a precise controlled attack,
maybe even a simple trial in a court of law. But to talk about
abolishing terrorism is far to dramatic and simply impossible to
achieve with current foreign policy. The people who organised and
ordered this particular attack of course will be punished but in the
broader perpective your most useful defence against this sort of
conflict will be imho through dialogue.

Alan Bates

On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:46:36 -0400, "William P. Brown"
<[email]> wrote:


text:
P Madison wrote:

True. What I was trying to communicate in response to your impatient and
imtemperate opening remark was (1) U.S. action is not likely to occur
soon because the U.S. will want to marshall it's military and other
resources and identify the correct targets to hit, (2) U.S. actions will
be severe, effective and spread over time, and (3) the U.S. will take
casualties.

If the U.S. is so unpopular, why do so many people from so many
different countries, cultures, religions and backgrounds try to come
here to live and work?

No, I mean in a fashion similar in effectiveness if not tactics to the
assualt on the Iraqi military forces in and around Kuwait.

So, you're saying the U.S. has to surrender unconditionally or, at the
very least, stop being a proponent of democracy and human rights.

No, my understanding of the differences is not blurred. It will be a
long, difficult, costly struggle. It will be equally or more costly if
we do not enter actively into the struggle.

Threats from the same and other terrorist organizations will continue
whichever course the U.S. follows. The qustions include whether we will
allow terrorists to run amuck in the world, and whether we will continue
to stand up for the values we believe in?

Similar to the 'highway of death' leading out of Kuwait city or similar
to the pile of rubble that used to be the World Trade Center?

Collateral damage, including civilian casualties, when military targets
are attacked is an unfortunate part of war. If you cannot see a moral
difference between civilians unlucky enough to be caught in the
crossfire of a battle between two armies and what happened Tuesday then
your efforts for dialogue will prove unsuccessful almost immediately.

I believe most of the civilized world recognizes that the past decades
of piecemeal, ad hoc responses to terrorism have not been effective. I
expect that our response this time will not be sustained and
long-lasting. I also expect we will have useful support from a good part
of the worlds' nations and peoples.

If that is true, the U.S. foreign policy will have to be modified
although I personally would oppose giving up our century+ long policy of
being an active proponent of democracy and human rights.

Once something approaching almost all of world's population resides in
countries that are governed democratically with institutionalized
respect for and safeguards of human rights, then there will be someone
to dialogue with. The only dialogue I can see having with people who
would directly and deliberately target for murder several thousand
innocent bystanders is a dialogue directed at setting such people up for
an ambush.

All that said, I also have to say this. A speaker I heard today remarked
that on Tuesday the U.S. received an invitation to become a terrorist
state. In searching out and destroying the people who supported the
Tuesday's terror, the U.S. must be sure to reject that invitation.

Regards,
Bill


author: Alex Vange

text:
http://stormfront.org
www.spearhead-uk.com
"William P. Brown" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
    America is controlled by Jews now, but it was good once. America became
great because it was built by White people.

    The former White nations and Japan are the first world. The Black
nations and India are the third world. In the middle, or the second world
are the Arabs and China. It is just as racialists would predict.  It is
because the White race is on average much more intelligent than the Black
race. The people in Japan are much lighter in color than the people in
India.

    All IQ tests have proven that Whites are on average much more
intelligent than Blacks. White people invented just about everything
important. Most leftists admit that Whites on average score higher on the
tests. They have their excuses for it, but all of their excuses are
demolished in "My Awakening" by David Duke. Here is an example:

     "One of the most powerful direct studies of race and environment was
conducted by psychologists Sandra Scarr, Richard Weinberg and I. D. Waldman.
All three were quite well-known for their environmental opinions. The study
analyzed White, Black, and Mixed-race adopted children in more than 100
White families in Minnesota. The study was an egalitarian's dream, because
the children's adoptive parents had prestigious levels of income and
education and were anti-racist enough to adopt a Black child into their own
family. Scarr is a strong defender of racial equality and maintained that
environment played an almost exclusive role in IQ differences between the
races. Scarr supports the importance of heredity in causing individual
differences within a race, but she has argued that between-race differences
are mostly environmental.

   The children in the study included Whites, Blacks, and Mulattos as well
as the biological children of the White adoptive couples. At the age of 7,
the children were tested for IQ, and all of the groups including the Blacks
and Mulattos, scored above average in IQ. Scarr and Weinberg published a
paper claiming to have proven the almost exclusive power of environment over
race in IQ, even though they had to admit that the White children, whether
adopted or not, scored well above the Black and Mulatto children and that
the Mulatto children scored above the Blacks. (88)

   A decade later, when the children reached the age of 17, a follow-up
study was conducted that that again included IQ measurements. As they
matured, Black children had dropped back to an average of 89 in IQ, which is
the average IQ for Blacks in the region of the United States where the study
was done. The White adopted children scored an average of 106 in IQ, 17
points higher than the Black children, which is consistant with traditional
studies of Black and White IQ differences. In line with genetic theory the
half-White, half-Black Mulatto adopted children scored almost exactly
between the adopted Whites and Blacks. (89)

  RESULTS OF MINNESOTA TRANSRACIAL ADOPTION STUDY

                                                                IQ

        Parental IQ                                       115.35
        Biological Children                            109.4
       White Adopted children                     105.6
        Mulatto parents adopted children       98.5
        Black parents adopted children            89.4

     Scarr and Wienberg reluctantly published their data from the follow up
survey, but they waited close to four years to do so, almost as if they were
embarrassed by what they had found. Through a tortured reasoning process,
they still argued that environment played a dominant role in IQ. But in
their follow-up survey, unlike their first paper, they also admitted that
genes had an important impact as well. Both Richard Lynn and Michael Levin
effectively showed in their re-analysis of Scarr's own data, that genes
clearly comprise the dominant role in intelligence levels of those adopted
children. (90) (91)"

(88)  Scarr, S, & Weinberg R. A. (1976). IQ Test Perfomance of Black
Children Adopted By  White Families. American Psychologist. Vol. 31.
p.26-739

(89)  Weinberg, R. A. , Scarr, S., & Waldman, I. D. (1992). The Minnesota
Transracial Adoption Study. A Follow-Up of IQ Test Performance at
Adolescence, Intelligence. Vol 16.
p.17-135

(90)  Lynn, R. (1994). Reinterpretations Of The Minnesota Transracial
Adoption Study. Intelligence. Vol. 19. p.1-27

(91)  Levin, M. (1994). Comment on The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study.
Intelligence Vol. 19. p.3-20

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text:
Alex Vange wrote:

<<SNIPPED THE GARBAGE>>

Speaking as a white, Anglo-Saxon, protestant middle-aged male, let me
invite you, Alex, to go back into the hole you crawled out of and stay
there.


author: Paul Thomas

text:
Alex Vange <[email]> wrote

<Snip the remaining ignorance>

And the idiots come out of the woodwork.


text:
Alex Vange wrote:

On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:14:14 -0500, William P. Brown wrote:

Oh, just wait until it starts quoting Hitler and Wee Willy Pierce.

In Mississippi, we refer to lower animals such as Alex Vagina as "white
trash".

Gray
--------------------------
Gray Shockley
Entropy Maintenance Technician
Tao Chemical Company
--------------------------
[email]
http://www.compcomm.com/
Vicksburg, Mississippi US


author: Frederick E. Jorden

text:
Gray Shockley wrote:

You give white trash a bad name.
The guys working at ground zero would be called white trash and red
necks if they lived in the south.
I did not see him driving up to the WTC or the Pentagon  to help with
the rescue and recovery!


author: Jason

subject: Low Cost Virtual Web Server

text:
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subject: Re: Book paints complex picture of Founding Fathers' faith

text:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:23:07 GMT, cg <cgrams7@{removethis}yahoo.com>
wrote:

	Once in a while I come across a non political BS Web Page in
the news, just does not happen that often.


author: voorn

text:
OS,
      Thanks, I just added this book to my amazon wish list. Great subject!
<[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...


text:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:27:19 -0500, "voorn" <[email]>
wrote:

	Glad to help.


author: Holly Sox

subject: Eating idiosyncrasy

text:
Hi,
I am new to this group, although not a new parent. I have a 12 year old and
a 5 year old, both boys.  My 5 year old is doing something that I have never
seen or heard of.  He does not want to eat anything that involves chewing.
If he does take a bite of anything solid, especially any sort of meat, he
will chew and chew and chew for what seems like hours.  Just for one tiny
bite.

We have just spent 2 hours trying to get this child to finish one chicken
nugget.

He will eat yogurt, sandwiches, applesauce, etc. with no difficulty.  The
child just seems to have a block against chewing and then swallowing
anything more solid than a peanut butter sandwich.

Has anyone else here dealt with this?  Do you have suggestions for what we
can do?  Meal times have become horrible, as I refuse to make a special meal
for him, and he will actually make himself throw up at times.

Thanks in advance.

Holly


author: chiam margalit

subject: Re: Eating idiosyncrasy

text:
"Holly Sox" <[email]> wrote in message news:<bs4tpc$2avo$[email]>...

My son is 11 and he STILL chews and chews and chews and can't swallow
meat. He's better with chicken and turkey, and he can swallow fish,
but beef....forget it!

My son had some hytonia issues as a baby, and I believe he still has
some soft muscles in his throat, because he just has no clue of how to
swallow big thick stuff. Like your child, he can and will make himself
barf if he is forced to eat something he can't swallow. So I stopped
making him. It wasn't worth the battle.

Now we don't eat much beef and no lamb (everyone but me in our family
hates it) so this isn't so much of an issue, but on the rare occasion
I do make a steak or roast, he's excused. He just can't eat it, but he
can eat the side dishes and they're enough for a balanced meal sans
meat. I try to think of him as a pseudo vegetarian. :-)

I don't think mealtime battles are worth the effort. I did have to
learn this the hard way, as both of my kids aren't the worlds greatest
eaters at times. DD went through years of refusing to eat anything
remotely spicey...and by that I mean anything with any taste. Plus she
won't eat anything hot, anything with certain foods, and she doesn't
like more than 2 things for a meal. Sigh. DS is *very* picky now, but
was a great eater as a younger child. You know what? At some point you
just let them eat what they want and stop making a federal case out of
it because it isn't worth the constant battles. Within reason, of
course. Now, if my kids don't want to eat what I cook, they are free
to make their own meals. Tonight they both had eggs and I had chicken
and rice. Their choice.

Marjorie


author: Denise

subject: Re: Eating idiosyncrasy

text:
"Holly Sox" <[email]> wrote in message
news:bs4tpc$2avo$[email]...
and
never
meal

maybe he has a sensory integration disorder? My 3 1/2 year old has an
aversion to textured foods.  I, myself, avoid anything crunchy, and I tend
to eat most things people would pick up with a fork and knife because of the
texture.

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author: Ericka Kammerer

subject: Re: Eating idiosyncrasy

text:
Holly Sox wrote:

	I'd get this checked out--it may be something beyond
his control.  He may have some sort of sensory integration
issues.  If that's the case, you may *have* to make some
accommodations.  Has he always been like this, or is this
something new after years of chewing just fine?

Best wishes,
Ericka


author: toto

subject: Re: Eating idiosyncrasy

text:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:54:17 -0500, "Holly Sox" <[email]>
wrote:

Find a counsellor to help the family.  If he makes himself throw up,
you may have a an eating disorder on your hands and that must be
dealt with professionally.