author: me

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
Deep Frayed Morgues <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

   You realize that this may be an oxymoron.  Studies are beginning to
show that heavy is heavy, regardless of the underlying tissue involved.
Extremely low calorie diets are being connected to preventing a variety
of cronic conditions as well as organ diseases, not to mention
enhancing longevity.  (Oh, and yer 'bout 200 lbs).

   That's sorta a misnomer.  Probably what you really mean is "overweight
but due to extrodinary circumstances".  It can be VERY hard to stay
thin with certian conditions.  However, mass isn't created out of thin
air.  Ultimately it comes down to the conservation of mass and energy
and if you eat more than you burn.....

    There is no clear answer on body mass and airline tickets.
You could charge by the pound, but ticket pricing is already
capricious, this would only complicate it.  People come in a
variety of sizes and shapes and there is no single "right" one.
As such, trying to draw a line in the sand and saying that
"these people pay more" is a fairly arbitrary exercise.


author: My side

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
"Icono Clast" <[email]> wrote in message
news:1100949899.+kp7hwKAPga283y3aXyDtA@teranews...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58886-2004Nov17.html?sub=AR
should
force

_______
Your table for calculating BMI results in my 6 foot 5 inch height and 215
lbs.having BMI of 25.5 which is shown  as overweight.  I have worn the same
size pants since I was 20 -- 34" waist and 40" leg  -- and have to keep them
belted tight high on my waist to prevent them from sliding over my hips.. As
a second opinion my wife is constantly on my case to gain some weight. I am
looking forward to the look on her face when I tell her that you class me as
overweight.

______________


author: Everyboysmomma

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
"Icono Clast" <[email]> wrote in message
news:1100949899.+kp7hwKAPga283y3aXyDtA@teranews...

Yep, BMI doesn't work for us either.  We both work out extensively.  My
husband has a BMI by your scale of a 29.9.  He wears a size 32 inch waist in
his pants.  My BMI came out at just over 30.  I wear a size 12
(comfortably).  Find another way to measure Bucky.
Momma


author: Bill Pittman

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <0PKnd.540506$mD.436493@attbi_s02>,
 "Bob Fusillo" <[email]> wrote:

Have you ever seen a thin person occupy LESS than one seat?


author: Nuke'em

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
nospam wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me.

  Or in the latter case, passengers would need to stand on a scale

Tought shit.  Fat people should be mortified.  They're fat.

   N.


author: Calif Bill

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
"nospam" <[email]> wrote in message
news:dRKnd.763$[email]...
seat,
embarrass
the

Then us big people could also claim discrimination.  I am 6'4" and 220#.  Am
I going to be charged extra?  I only take one seat, but my knees always hit
the seat in front on Delta and AA.


author: John A. Weeks III

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <[email]>, bogus address
<[email]> wrote:

The solution is very simple...if they are selling tickets by the
person, then they should have seats that fit the vast majority
of the people that buy tickets.  If they were selling by the
pound, then other arrangments might work.  But in this day and
age where people on average are getting bigger and bigger over
the past 100 years, airlines should put in bigger seats to
accomodate their passengers.

-john-


author: Deep Frayed Morgues

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 04:22:09 -0800, Icono Clast <[email]>
wrote:

I think that's what is being hinted at here. It's about penalising
people for being unnecessarily fat. It's just as uncomfortable to sit
next to someone with broad shoulders, a laptop, and a carry bag.
---
DFM


author: Leila Dinfrl

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Icono Clast <[email]> wrote:

Where is the fat coming from if these "genetically fat" people are not
consuming more energy than they expend?    Please provide some supporting
documentation too.

I'm curious.  Are you fat?


author: Icono Clast

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
My side wrote:

Everyboysmomma wrote:

Neither the formula nor table is mine. I don't know who created them
but it might have been an organization, or agency, called something
like the National Institute for Health. The formula and table're
available from many sources on the WEB. Just ask your search engine
to find "body mass index".

I don't agree with my BMI being considered to be "normal" either as I
think I'm fat, well, they call it "overweight".
____________________________________________________________
    One of (as of 2003) 751,682 residents of San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/  http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103   IClast at SFbay Net


author: Eric Witte

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
Its called bodyfat percentage.  Anyone who even mentions BMI does not
know what they are talking about.

Eric


author: Miguel Cruz

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
Bill Pittman  <[email]> wrote:

They use less fuel, if they're also not tall or muscular.

miguel


author: bogus address

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
So to accommodate 1 in 1000 people (which is about the proportion of
Scottish bus passengers who overflow a normal seat) the bus companies
are supposed to halve their seating capacity?

It would be more realistic to have an entry turnstile to stop people
getting on if they were that fat.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html>  food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[This was uploaded yesterday at 03:34 but seems to've disappeared.
If it's a duplicate, I'm sorry.]

Leila Dinfrl wrote:

I can't provide it but we're all aware that we vary in size and that
those variations are, in large part, inherited.

According to the BMI scale, I'm "Normal" or "Overweight" my BMI
ranging from about 24.9 to 25.1. In my opinion, even when my BMI is
24.9, I think I'm fat.
______________________________________________________________
A San Francisco glutton who says: "You serve it, I'll eat it!"
http://geocities.com/dancefest/   http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103    IClast at SFbay Net


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
That is where it's coming from.  Sometimes they still can't do anything
about it.  Look up Prader-Willi syndrome.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html>  food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <[email]>, bogus address
<[email]> wrote:

How about using the old noggin, man?  If there is a size that is
1 in a 1000, you shouldn't need more than 2 on a bus.  The last
row of the bus doesn't need an isle, so put them there, and it
doesn't take up any additional rom.

How about tatto'ing a 6 point star on their foreheads and then
shotting 'em?

-john-


author: Gandolf Parker

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On 24 Nov 2004, [email] (Icono Clast) wrote:

The average fat acceptor weighs well over 300 pounds.  Is that a normal
variation?

A BMI of 25 is considered overweight.  Your problem is that you are
overfat.  Get more exercise.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On 22 Nov 2004, [email] (bogus address) wrote:

No problem.  Quoting the Prader-Willi Syndrome Association's web site at  :
http://www.pwsausa.org/syndrome/basicfac.htm

"Appetite Disorder

Hypothalamic dysfunction is thought to be the cause of the disordered
appetite/satiety function characteristic of PWS. Compulsive eating and
obsession with food usually begin before age 6. The urge to eat is
physiological and overwhelming; it is difficult to control and requires
constant vigilance.

Weight Management Challenge

Compounding the pressure of excessive appetite is a decreased calorie
utilization in those with PWS (typically 1,000-1,200 kcal per day for
adults), due to low muscle mass and inactivity. A balanced, low-calorie
diet with vitamin and calcium supplementation is recommended. Regular
weigh-ins and periodic diet review are needed. The best meal and snack plan
is one the family or caregiver is able to apply routinely and consistently.
Weight control depends on external food restriction and may require locking
the kitchen and food storage areas. Daily exercise (at least 30 minutes)
also is essential for weight control and health.

To date, no medication or surgical intervention has been found that would
eliminate the need for strict dieting and supervision around food. GH
treatment, because it increases muscle mass and function, may allow a
higher daily calorie level."

People afflicted with Prader-Willi syndrome are not defying the Laws of
Thermodynamics, are they?  According to their web site, the prevalence of
Prader-Willi syndrome is 1:12,000- 15,000 (both sexes, all races).  Around
65% of the US population is either overweight or obese.  How do you account
for the rest of the obesity epidemic?


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
John A. Weeks III wrote:

You fat people always expect the rest of us to pay for you.  If airlines
increase the size of any seat on the plane, they reduce the number of
seats on the plane, thus reducing the revenue they get from a given
flight.  To make up for it, they will have to charge more per seat.
Which means the rest of us have to pay for YOU.

Fuck off fatso.  Lose weight or stop complaining.

   N.


author: Vilma

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:18:21 -0600, John A. Weeks III babbled:

Your website sucks.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[The attempt to uploaded this today at 04:15 appears to have failed.
If it's a duplicate, I'm sorry.]

Gandolf Parker wrote:

"Variation" from what? From what I see of Samoans, you're a variation
if your weight isn't around 300 pounds.

My BMI today is 24.2. I still look fat. I've been losing weight
lately but don't know why. Another three pounds would please me, any
more, and I'm heading to a doctor.

Exercise? Most weeks, I dance four nights a week. Tomorrow,
ThanksGiving, I'll start dancing at eight and probably won't quit
'til seven hours later. Friday, and Saturday I'll dance a few hours
during the day, some in the evening, and then a lot from Midnight
'til about four. Sunday I'll dance a few hours during the day, and
then quite a bit from about eight 'til about two as it's farther than
forty-five miles to get home from the USOpen Swing Dance
Championships in San Josï¿½. There will probably be close to fifteen
hundred Swing dancers there, all good (like me), many better, some
excellent, and a few we refer to as "the top dogs" and our gods and
goddesses.

A few of them are fat, but very few. Dancers' bodies are very nice.

Fat dancers are not necessarily "heavy" dancers and thin ones are not
necessarily "light" dancers. Whether one is heavy or light on the
floor is a matter of physics, not physique.
________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/     http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103      IClast at SFbay Net


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[The attempt to uploaded this today at 04:57 appears to have failed.
If it's a duplicate, I'm sorry.]

Gandolf Parker wrote:

"Variation" from what? From what I see of Samoans, you're a variation
if your weight isn't around 300 pounds.

My BMI today is 24.2. I still look fat. I've been losing weight
lately but don't know why. Another three pounds would please me, any
more, and I'm heading to a doctor.

Exercise? Most weeks, I dance four nights a week. Tomorrow,
ThanksGiving, I'll start dancing at eight and probably won't quit
'til seven hours later. Friday, and Saturday I'll dance a few hours
during the day, some in the evening, and then a lot from Midnight
'til about four. Sunday I'll dance a few hours during the day, and
then quite a bit from about eight 'til about two as it's farther than
forty-five miles to get home from the USOpen Swing Dance
Championships in San Josï¿½. There will probably be close to fifteen
hundred Swing dancers there, all good (like me), many better, some
excellent, and a few we refer to as "the top dogs" and our gods and
goddesses.

A few of them are fat, but very few. Dancers' bodies are very nice.

Fat dancers are not necessarily "heavy" dancers and thin ones are not
necessarily "light" dancers. Whether one is heavy or light on the
floor is a matter of physics, not physique.
________________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who never says "No!" to an invitation to dance!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/     http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103      IClast at SFbay Net


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
No, but they are quite capable of ripping the lock off the fridge with
their teeth.  They need supervision ALL THE TIME to keep their food
compulsions under control.

Capitalism, or if you prefer, the American culture.  Does just as good
a job of fucking up normal eating behaviour as a genetic brain disorder.
The difference is you can lose your job for suggesting something should
be done about it.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html>  food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
"Leila Dinfrl" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
it.
:
plan
consistently.
locking
account

Maybe they are Rubenest(sp?) and not fat.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <[email]>, Vilma <[email]>
wrote:

Where is your website?  I'd like to compare.

-john-


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On 23 Nov 2004, [email] (bogus address) wrote:

Looks like we all agree that obesity is self-inficted.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:38:57 -0600, John A. Weeks III sayeth:

Yeah like I'm going to tell you so you can trash it for all my visitors.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:38:57 -0600, John A. Weeks III sayeth:

I feel I may have been a little cruel saying your site sucks since it just
a personal site so I apologise. I have seen worse.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On 23 Nov 2004 15:06:15 -0000, Gandolf Parker sayeth:

yes and you are the EXPERTS.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <vk9ewuj6n8q9$[email]>, Vilma <[email]>
wrote:

I'd still enjoy hearing your critique.  I get a lot of traffic and
many E-mails each day, mostly with compliments.  I'd be interested
in hearing what you don't like, the trains, the airplanes, the
road signs, the calendar utilty, the tractor photos, the toys, etc.
There aren't too many people that can dislike that many things.

-john-


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:09:00 -0600, John A. Weeks III sayeth:

Mainly the color combo's. I'm not a huge fan of gray. It also looks a
little cluttered.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:09:00 -0600, John A. Weeks III sayeth:

The honest truth is I was angered at your shoot all fat people comment.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <2d2hcdrktwia$[email]>, Vilma <[email]>
wrote:

I certainly am not a graphic artist, so I am not surprised that
someone would comment on color combinations and my lack of use
of tools like front page.  I like good old HTML as written in
"vi" so it can run on anything from a Speak-N-Spell to a Cray.
I used a light grey because I have a lot of textual information,
and black text is most easily read on a light colored background.
What colors would you suggest?

-john-


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <[email]>, Vilma <[email]>
wrote:

I was being sarcastic.  The previous poster suggested that we
simply prohibit large people from traveling.  I did leave a hint
in my comment, about the 6-pointed star, which many people would
recognize as a reference to the holocaust.  I don't think many
modern educated poeple feel that the jewish genocide was a good
thing, and by reference, singling out large people is not good either.
I'm sorry that you took it the wrong way.  Perhaps you might want
to go back and re-read the thread with this new point of view in mind.

-john-


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:17:57 -0600, John A. Weeks III sayeth:

Thankyou I'm glad you didn't mean it.


author: DirtBag

subject: Bought more FCX at close.  Yes or N0

text:
I see FCX as a buy but then a fast money trader on CNBC says SHORT FCX.
  HolyCow.   How much lower can it go.. $25?  I may bail.


author: momarch

subject: Re: Bought more FCX at close.  Yes or N0

text:
I looked at it when I saw your earlier post.  I like FCX have traded it several times in the past.  But I was thinking 27-28 might not be out of the question here so I did not do anything with it..........yet... ;)

I added LNKD, ORCL, LOW, KBH...today and yesterday......just in case bob is checking up on me.  I know I am leaving something out here....already shut down the account......we've been grouting the bathroom and laundry floors today.
I tell you what....the older you get the LESS fun that on your knees work gets to be!!  When did I start making that OOF noise when I get up from the kneeling position??


text: yah and the stock is trying to pull back up......well they normally do when they fall that much suddenly...i got the weeklies so I'll hold it a couple more days...see what happens.


text:
On 3/22/12 3:25 PM, momarch wrote:

Yes I have been buying FCX down and now wish I had waited longer.  Like
27-30 is realistic.  One of my shoot myself in the foot trades i fear.

LNKD is might be more than I figured.  ORCL is a runner IMO.  LOW and HD
are interesting.  KBH?  Home builder?  Ballsy!!

Crawling around period is not my favorite work position..  I swear I
have aged 10 years in the last ten years.  That OOF.. noise?  I make
than all the time.  OOF.. First thing I say in the morning.. OOF  need
Coffee, OOF... why am I still tired?

OOF....Comes with the territory I think..

Some kind of deal Man made with the Devil thousands of years ago I think.


text: KBH not so ballsy....they report tomorrow...its a strangle play ;)


text:
On 3/22/12 5:29 PM, momarch wrote:

-8% is more of a death march..into the pit of housing hell. I think they
shoot it when it gets to the pit..  HOV is -2% and a $2 stock. Oh how
the once mighty have fallen in housing.  TOL too.


author: Walter Blickner

subject: Citibank allows my $600 check to be cashed TWICE.

text:
I wrote a check for $600, and it was cashed last month.  This month
Citibank allowed it to be cashed again.  They keep my checks, so the
paper check could not have been used.  Their theory is that someone
went to or called one of their branches, said they had my VERBAL
authorization to cash this check again and CITIBANK LET THEM.

Citibank refuses to give me back my money until their investigation is
complete -- up to 14 days.  They defend their right to cash "verbal"
checks and keep the money for two weeks during disputes.  I am
INCREDIBLY lucky I discovered this before my checks started bouncing.
This startling and probably illegal incompetence could potentially
destroy the credit ratings of innocent people.

Before this experience I'd never heard of "verbal" checks, and I'm
surprised nobody's brought a lawsuit against them yet.  If any lawyers
are reading this I'll HAPPILY be the first.  If you have a checking
account with Citibank be aware that they may debit your account for
any amount, at any time, with absolutely no warning and you won't get
the money back for two weeks.

If anyone knows agencies I can complain to, please email me.  I want
my money back, I want an apology, and I want to close my account.
I've contacted the BBB, the FDIC and several consumer reporters.
Monday I call the state comptroller's office.  This MUST be stopped.


subject: Re: Citibank allows my $600 check to be cashed TWICE.

text:
Well, the other shoe has dropped.  Citibank's investigation is over,
and they find no evidence of fraud. They say it was something like
"wires being crossed" -- some other bank sent them a photocopy of the
check and asked for payment (although it'd already been cashed a month
before) and they paid them.  Sure, that doesn't sound like an
explanation to me, and in fact I made the woman repeat the story four
times, because the first three times I was convinced either she had
mush for brains or she'd called the wrong phone number. She says it
took two weeks to figure out because the first investigation didn't
turn up anything.  So exactly FIFTEEN DAYS after I complained,
NINETEEN DAYS after they took the money out of my account, they're
putting it back.

I filed a complaint today with the Office of the Comptroller of the
Currency, because I understand from dealing with them that there was a
two-week limit for returning my money, which they missed by a day
(assuming I get the money tomorrow).  Citibank, though, says it's only
with fraud that they have to return the money in fourteen days. With
MISTAKES they can pay me back any d*mn time they want.  Anybody know
if this is true?

Here's the good news: They're giving me back my $600, plus sixteen
cents in interest.

OK, I was lying that there was good news.

So that's it, I guess -- for their side.  In addition to the OCC I
filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau so here's hoping
sixteen cents isn't all they have to pay for this travesty.


text:
Let me take this opportunity to post a little editorial here.

If you don't want your bank to take money out of your checking account
with absolutely no warning, if you don't like spending hour after hour
on the phone with incompetent morons who insinuate that you're a
nuisance and a thief and tell you that you'd better put more money in
your account or your checks will now bounce, or if you don't find it
sufficient that the money reappears FIFTEEN DAYS LATER without an
apology or a rational explanation --

DON'T BANK AT CITIBANK.


author: Curtis CCR

text:
Could this have been an electronic error?  Some merhcants can present
your check electronically to your bank almost as soon as you write it.
 Perhaps it was electronically presented twice.  Still an error, but
it's not like someone is trying to steal from you.

And I have yet to hear of a bank that will credit back money to your
account based solely on your report of an error.  They will hold the
money until their investigation is done.  This is not unique to
Citibank.

[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: Najena

text:
[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote in
news:[email]:

Are the payees identical?  If so, the merchant may have posted the check
twice.  In that case, the check numbers should be identical.

I'm not certain they can do this unless it's a contractual provision in
your account agreement or if they are authorized by statute.
One bounced check doesn't necessarily destroy a credit rating --
especially in the case of bank error.  A note is kept on file at the
credit bureau which comments the bounced check.  A rejection in a case
like that should only happen if the credit analyst is a complete moron,
in which case I'd speak to the credit manager.

Verbal authorization is nothing new.  Most if not all banks do it.  Some
telemarketers routinely solicit products, then 'take a check over the
phone'.  All that happens is that they ask you to recite some
information from a blank check, such as the account number, check
number, and the bank routing number.  Of course, such phone calls are
recorded.
Not only that, you can pay a bill by check over the phone without even
speaking to a human.  You just enter your bank and account numbers via a
touch-tone phone, and then enter the amount.  I used to do this
sparingly before I had Internet banking, when I forgot to mail a payment
and I didn't want it to be late.

Why?  I wouldn't do it now, but I've made many purchases in this manner
when I just got out of high school and couldn't get a credit card yet.
It is an option for those who a purchase shipped as soon as possible and
don't have or don't want to have a credit card.  It's easy for the
merchant, as they get their money the same day, and can verify the
account with TeleCheck.
Perhaps you can modify the terms of your account with your bank to
prohibit such transfers.  Alternatively, you could call TeleCheck and
see if they maintain a list of 'blocked' checking accounts.
Unfortunately, accounting errors are part of the risk of having your
money in someone else's possession.  I guess that's why a lot of old
people keep thousands of dollars in cash sitting around the house in
coffee cans... they just don't trust banks.


author: McGyver

text:
Let them take the 14 days.  Nothing you can do that would be faster than
that.  Get them to tell you in writing what they find out in their
investigation.  It won't be anything so silly as a verbal authorization to
cash a check twice.  When you get the true story, you can decide what to do
about it.

McGyver

"Walter Blickner" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Dennis P. Harris

text:
On 1 Jun 2002 08:19:51 -0700 in misc.consumers,
[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote:

the correct agency is the federal comptroller of the currency.

call them back and INSIST on talking to a supervisor.  if you
don't get satisfaction, ask for that person's supervisor.

if you banked at a small local credit union, BTW, they would be
more responsive.


author: [redacted]

text:
On 12 Jun 2002 14:41:01 -0700, [email] (Walter
Blickner) wrote:

AND?  Are you staying or finding alternatives?  I've left banks for
less...like dropping free checking 2 weeks after I ordered
checks/opened new account (1975- I don't forget "First Virginia").  I
would think they owe you a profuse apology with some time of gratis
arrangement.

I've been with several credit unions, one since 1970.  Once they
became bank-like (and offered checking), I haven't used an actual
bank.  Not all credit unions offer the services you need but they are
often a good alternative when they do.
_____________

Tippy


text:
On 12 Jun 2002 14:51:25 -0700, [email] (Walter
Blickner) wrote:

Great Wlater,...what did YOU do?

Curious
_____________

Tippy


author: Stan Brown

text:
Walter Blickner <[email]> wrote in misc.consumers:

Or anywhere else.

While your experience is outrageous, and you have every right to be
furious based on the facts you've told us, I don't believe there's a
bank in the country where you are 100% safe from such a screwup.

Smaller banks tend to have fewer such complaints reported against
them because they're, well, smaller.


text:
On 12 Jun 2002 14:51:25 -0700 in misc.consumers,
[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote:

you HAVE changed banks now that you got your money back, right?


author: Kathy

text:
McGyver wrote:

This happened to me once and they never were able to explain to me what
happened.  I noticed it when my statement arrived with the cancelled
checks.  There was a photocopy of one of the checks in there as well as
the original, and both were cashed. It took the bank about a week (with
daily calls from me) to return the money to my account.  they were never
able to explain it.  I changed banks.

kathy


text:
Thanks very much!  It has now been two weeks since my money
disappeared and I've got an official complaint filed with them.

Anybody know what the process is from here, or what penalty Citibank
could incur?  Something tells me that I'm going to be reimbursed the
money plus 2% interest and the whole thing's going to be dropped.


author: Eric Lee Green

text:
In article <[email]>, Dennis P. Harris ruminated:

I make it a point of never banking with any bank that's not a local
bank. I want to be able to drive a few miles to corporate headquarters
and talk to the CEO's secretary if necessary.

Now, I've never had to do that, but that's probably because local
banks, while they do screw things up from time to time, tend to be
more responsibe -- because I *COULD* do that.


text:
[email] <[email]> wrote in misc.consumers:

Or Key Bank in 1998. (It was 10 months, not two weeks. But I still
had about three quarters of the high-priced checks(*) they sold me
when I opened the account.)

(*) "High-priced" means  $20 for 200. It would have been more, but
the accounts clerk told me when I opened the account that it
couldn't possibly be more than $20. I had to insist on a refund of
the overage, and then made a resolution to start buying checks from
third parties.


text:
Hey folks, thanks for the responses!  Let me respond to some comments:

Sorry, in trying to keep it short I phrased it badly.  I *think*
somebody stole my statement out of the mail and either cashed a
photocopy (Citibank sends me a tiny photocopy of all my cashed checks)
or called in a verbal check somewhere with the same amount and check
number as the original.

Here's why the investigation takes two weeks, and why this practice
has to be stopped:  Citibank can't tell for SEVEN DAYS who the payee
of the fraudulent check is.  So they don't know if they made a mistake
or if it's fraud.

This means anybody who SEES one of your checks or SEES one of your
statements or SEES your account number anywhere can pull money out of
your account and, obviously, make all your checks bounce.  The
disputed money is then FROZEN FOR TWO WEEKS.  Do you think somebody's
landlord is going to sit patiently while Citibank tries to decipher
their own incompetence?

Seriously, you don't think this process could screw innocent people?
I'm just surprised it hasn't yet (to my knowledge.)  How would you
like the money in your checking account to be frozen, through no
action of your own?  You could close your account, but you still
wouldn't get your money back until Citibank said do.  Do you think
this should be legal?

Citibank doesn't care.  They don't have to.


text:
It really doesn't surprise me that you had this problem with Citibank.  Before
I dropped my account with them, they not only mixed up my deposits several
times with other accounts, but they placed someone else's tax lien on my
account and then told me that it would take them 7 business days to figure out
what had been done and how they could fix it!!  All they had to do was check my
social security number to verify that it wasn't mine and it would have taken
all of 2 seconds!!  They also "lost" a co-workers direct deposit, which
mysteriously showed up 3 weeks later with no explanation as to what had
happened or where the money had been placed.  She didn't even get an apology.
And you're definitely right about one thing, Citibank DOES NOT care, because
they don't have to.  I pulled my money out of that account and have had quite a
few rriends and family do the same.  I am quite happy now with my neighborhood
"mom & pop" bank.  These global giants are only interested in what your money
can do for them; they could care less about you as customer.


text:
[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote in
news:[email]:

If CitiBank actually allowed a photocopy of a check to be cashed, that
is completely on them.  But you may still have to fight bitterly with
them about it.  That just a risk of banks.

They damned well can tell who the payee is.  They immediately, or soon
after, have records of which bank paid out the money or into which
account at such bank the money was transferred.  All that then needs to
be done is to contact that bank and find out where the money went.
Their excuse of 7 days is either laziness or backlog.

It's the same way with credit cards.  Any unscrupulous employee of a
merchant can write down information from credit card receipts, and spend
your money this way.  And if someone has enough info on your checking
account, they may be able set up an account transfer.  No matter what is
made illegal, there is no getting away from thieves.  They always have,
and always will, find ways to commit fraud.
I use my computer to check my bank balance each nite.  It's become part
of a daily routine for me.  Before I had 'Net banking, I used my
telephone to check my balance each nite.  The way I see it, anytime my
money isn't in my hand, I need to keep tabs on it.

I've been there.  I've had my bank 'lose' close to $3000 of my money by
messing up paycheck deposits.  Wasn't my fault, but it happened
nonetheless.  Because I check my balance daily, I noticed the problem
and was able to get started on it the next day, and avoid bounced check
problems.
At any rate, I still believe 'phone checks' should be legal.  I do,
however, believe that all banks should be required to allow the customer
the option of not allowing such activity from a given account.


author: Todd Copeland

text:
I believe the number of days you are being quoted are from FTC regulations
on the maximum time a bank has to correct the situation... not how long it
actually would take to find out this information. True is, the bank could
find out in about 10 minutes but they are not set up to handle all
complaints this way. The bank makes more money when they employee as few
people as possible.

Banks are like Microsoft... they want to make it too easy for people to use
them that they 'break" the system in doing so. No one complains until they
suffer a mishap. Another example is how easy it is to use charge cards. No
one wants to spend the extra 10 seconds it would take to make them secure...
until they have money stolen from them.

"Walter Blickner" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
don't have to.


text:
One crucial difference.  With credit cards it's your available credit
that's temporarily locked up.  With checking accounts it's your actual
money.  First, we should be warned that this can happen, and second,
when frauds occur we should *immediately* get our money back.


text:
[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote in
news:[email]:

I agree... when it is determined to be a fraud.  Fraud is also committed by
the actual account holders at times.


text:
[email] (Walter Blickner) wrote in
news:[email]:

Also (I forgot to mention in my other reply), be on the look-out for check-
washing.  That's going to be a hell of a problem once it really gets
rolling.


author: Polar

text:
On 03 Jun 2002 15:30:16 GMT, Najena <[email]> wrote:

What is "check washing"? Thanks.


author: Bob Ward

text:
On 03 Jun 2002 15:30:16 GMT, Najena <[email]> wrote:

How long is it going to take?  That was touted as the most lucrative
scam of the future 25 years ago when I sold check protection machines
door-to-door to small businesses.  Check technology has improved a lot
since then.


text:
On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 13:02:10 -0700, Polar <[email]>
wrote:

It involves chemically erasing the payee and the amount which the
check was written for, allowing the forger to increase the amount of
the take.  Since the new security papers were introduced, it doesn't
seem to be a big problem today.


text:
Today's inks can still wash the pen ink without affecting the check
printing.


subject: Wanted!

text:
Wanted: English-speaking friends
signalment: good humor, cheerfulness, patience)))
Hi!
My name is Max. I'm russian 20 old student of 2 universities. I'm from
siberia. I want to find friends from other countries, who good in
english. Now my english is worse, but i wanna make it good! Help me,
and some time i'll help U)))
Email me, i'm wait for you


author: HaggMan

subject: Re: Wanted!

text:
Hi Max,

My name's Matt.  I'm 22 from USA.  If you're wanting to improve your
english, here's one site I think you'll like:

http://lang.tabonga.com

You can practice and people will correct what you write.  And you can
also help other people who are wanting to learn Russian (or any other
language you know).

-Matt

40.02 wrote:


subject: Re: Wanted!

text:
Thanks for that Einde :)

I spent two years outside of my country (U.S.) where I picked up the
habit of -ing my words.  I think it's still okay to do that --- though
maybe I've really lost my sense of "proper" grammar.

I keep second-guessing myself...  No, I think it's alright to say "If
you're wanting to do something."  Your correction is more
straightforward, though.

Thanks,

-HaggMan

Einde O'Callaghan wrote:


subject: Re: Wanted!

text:
Einde,

Hmm, I'm interested in this.  I'm a native speaker of English (American
English).  Yet I know, from learning Spanish, that native speakers of
languages don't know all the formal "rules" that learners of second
languages know.

I have never ever heard of a series of verbs having to do with mental
states and senses that require special treatment.  Where did you learn
about that?

Thanks,

HaggMan

Einde O'Callaghan wrote:


author: Einde O'Callaghan

subject: Re: Wanted!

text:
HaggMan schrieb:
It should be "If you want to improve ..." and "English" is always
written with a capital letter.

And it should be "people who want to learn Russian".

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan


subject: Re: Wanted!

text:
HaggMan schrieb:
"Want" is one of a series of verbs to do with mental states and the
senses that are very rarely used in continuous tenses (i.e. the tenses
formed using "be" + the -ing form).

I'm very aware of this class of verbs as I have to teach it regularly to
more advanced students.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan


subject: Re: Wanted!

text:
HaggMan schrieb:
Normally, native speakers use these correctly without thinking.
Sometimes, however, when people live in a foreign country there can be
some grammatical interference (also sometimes in vocabulary too) from
the language of that country - particularly if they are fairly fluent in
that language. I sometimes detect such language interference from German
in my own speech even though I'm particularly aware of it, being an
English teacher.

As to these verbs rarely used in the continuous tenses, I learned about
them partly through teaching about them and looking into teh reasons why
I felt that some sentences written by fairly advanced students seemed to
me to be wrong even though apparently they had followed the rules of
thumb given in their textbooks. I delved into various more advanced
textbooks, grammars and books on usage and discovered backing for for my
gut feeling.

Just to list the categories roughly and give some examples:

1. verbs relating to mental process: think (when giving an opinion),
love, like, hate, understand, remeber, forget.

2.verbs relating to use of the senses: see, hear, taste, smell - when
referring to the use of the senses - usually we use "can" instead of the
present continuous to refer to actually doing these processes, e.g. "I
can see an apple tree full of fruit in the garden and the apples are
falling to the ground all the time". Several of these have a transferred
  meaning that can be used in the continuous tense, e.g. "I'm seeing Tom
tonight" medaning "I'm meeting Tom tonight". "Feel" is an exception, but
there is no real difference in meaning between "I feel unwell" and "I'm
feeling unwell".

3. verbs relating to possession: have (not in relation to actions), own,
possess.

In some varieties of English spoken by large numbers of people in Asia,
e.g. the 15 million or so people in India who speak English as their
first language, this distinction is not made - partly perhaps because
some of their ancestors adopted the rule of thumb about use of the
present continuous to describe present action and extended it to these
categories as well.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan


author: Hooda Gest

subject: Re: Moderate Republicans

text:
"trudogg" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
to

I did. You ignored what I wrote, focused on one part and thought you had an
answer.

The question is always ... How do you reconcile limited government with
advancing so-called progressive principles?

The answer is, you cannot. You either believe in the individual or you
believe in the state as the key to bringing achieving goals.

The "moderate's" ideology is to follow. It is not to lead, it is not to
innovate. It reacts, not acts.

That can be okay, a moderating force is useful. But it is not my way nor do
I think it is productive in the long term. It is just a way of resolving an
issue that actually just puts it off. One example is the "gang of 14". They
did not resolve the issue of filibusters of judicial nominees, they put it
off. Another is the Compromise of 1820 (Missouri Compromise) did not resolve
the issue of slavery, it put it off.


author: gordon

subject: Re: Moderate Republicans

text:
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:21:11 -0400, "Hooda Gest" <Be@One_With.Calm>
wrote:

...I don't know how you can look at the world around you in such
absolutes. The reason we have survived as a democracy as long as we
have is through compromise. I give a little, you give a little and we
work it out. You cannot have a cohesive, progressive and ongoing
country such as ours based strictly on "individuals", some private
characteristics must be "donated" to the whole. And so we have two
parties...

...you're dead wrong. A moderate leads by inclusion and compromise.

...any compromise is an instrument of it's time. Hindsight is always
20-20, ain't it?


subject: Re: Moderate Republicans

text:
"gordon" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
an

Your rants belie your words. You  see no "gray" when it comes to Bush.
Compromise is not moderation, compromise is a tool to smooth the rougher
spots. It can be used for good or bad but it is not something that lasts nor
does it resolve issues.

It leads to rule by emotions of the moment. What's fashionable, what's
tolerable (for now), what isn't (for now).

do
an
They
it
resolve

Yes, it is... and that was hindsight regarding the Missouri Compromise. It
did not prevent the Civil War and may have even laid the foundation for it.

The "Gang of 14" resolved nothing and only postponed the fight. When
something needs righting, compromise only postpones the inevitable. And, in
my opinion, worsens the fight.


author: Kelly

subject: Mailbox theft

text:
Thought some might enjoy this:

I noticed my mailbox was missing Wednesday morning, as was the neighbors
and a few others along the road.  I was peeved, because it was an
expensive vandal-resistant box, and I thought I had it mounted pretty well.

Friday the Sherriff's office calls me - they've got my mailbox.  "Where
did you find it?" - "In the back of the pickup of the guys who stole
it!"  Apparently one of the neighbors down the road heard a theft in
progress, ran out and was able to ID the vehicle.  Police from a nearby
town (closer than the sherriff) responded, and chased the vehicle down.
    Three "kids" aged 20-23.  Apparently they've been charged with
felonies (not exactly sure what/why - but some of the boxes had mail,
and  the total value of mailboxes stolen had to have been in the
thousands of $$'s.

Anyway, good to know the jackasses don't always get away with it!

Story is here..

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/three_men_charged_in_mailbox_t.html
or at the shortened URL here:
http://snurl.com/mailbox_theft

Kelly


author: Roland Latour

subject: Re: Mailbox theft

text:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:01:08 -0800, Kelly wrote:

Mine came with a steel post, and the box bolted to the post from the
inside, to nuts welded to the post. I used a sack of concrete to set the
post 18" deep. Is that how you mounted yours? How did they get it out of
the ground? A chain to their truck's hitch would probably have done quite
a bit of damage to their rear bumper.

Over 18, federal felony. I hope they go to Leavenworth.


author: BR

subject: Re: Mailbox theft

text:
Kelly wrote:

Messing with mailboxes is a federal offense.  Those "kids" are going to
do some hard time!


author: DanG

subject: Re: Mailbox theft

text:
If you mean one sack of sackrete, the large one is 80 lbs.
Wouldn't even slow down a VW, much less a truck.


subject: Re: Mailbox theft

text:
Roland Latour wrote:

Well, the post came with the property: it is a 6X6 PT post, sunk into a
~30 gallon drum of concrete/dirt/gravel.  I had 4 6" X 5/16" lagscrews
through the bottom of the box into the post. Unfortunately, the bolt
circle was only about 2.5", and the mailbox was 25" long.  So by
grabbing the box and rotating, they had plenty of leverage to shear the
screws off.  They stole the box; the post didn't move.

I haven't decided yet whether to remount to the 6X6, or get a steel post
sunk in concrete.

Kelly


author: Martin

subject: A plug...'Behind the Nine' screens at festivals in Kentucky and Florida soon....come on out!

text:
'Behind the Nine' has been invited to screen at the Midwest
Entertainment Industry Conference's (MEIC) 2003 Film Festival. The
festival takes place November 13-16 in Lexington, KY. 'Behind the
Nine' will screen at 6:15pm on Friday Nov. 14th at University of
Kentucky Student Center Theater. If you've got friends in Kentucky,
let them know about the festival and 'Behind the Nine'. Film Schedule
for MEIC found here:
http://www.midwestentertainmentconference.com/Films.html

'Behind the Nine' has also been invited to screen at another film
festival...Saints & Sinners IV Film Festival on December 6th in St.
Petersburgn, FL. The festival is a one day event in downtown St.
Pete...more information can be found at the festival's website
http://www.renegadefilms.net/festival.html
So Tell all your west Florida friends to come on out.

More information about the film can be found at www.behindthenine.com

Tell your friends in Kentucky and Florida to come on out and see the
movie.

Thanks,
Martin Kelley
Director, 'Behind the Nine'


author: Oranse

subject: Re: A plug...'Behind the Nine' screens at festivals in Kentucky and Florida soon....come on out!

text:
<< Saints & Sinners IV Film Festival on December 6th in St. Petersburgn, FL.
The festival is a one day event in downtown St. Pete >>

Big beans, Martay! You going to the fest in St Pete?

Oranse


author: MwsReader

text:
Martin Kelley wrote:

Excellent news, Martin!  Keep us up to date on its progress!

Ken


text:
[email] (Oranse) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Yeah, I'm definitely going to be there...as well as in KY.

I've got a buddy in St. Pete to hang out with when I'm there.

-M


text:
[email] (MwsReader) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I will...

Martin


author: Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen

text:
On 10 Nov 2003 07:42:30 -0800, [email] (Martin) wrote:

May you have very hospitable freinds in ALL film circuit cities!  And
good luck picking up a distributor.  :)

Caroline


text:
"Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Thanks Caroline...

A quick update...

We were Runner-up for Best Feature at the MEIC 2003 festival in
Lexington, KY and we've been given the prime time Slot in the Saints &
Sinners IV festival in St. Petersburg  8:00PM!!!

thanks for the recent hits (those of you who have visited the
website)...

Martin Kelley
Director, 'Behind the Nine'
www.behindthenine.com


text:
Martin wrote:

Great news!  Keep sharing your progress!

Ken


text:
[email] (MwsReader) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

We are extremely proud to announce that Dawn Smith was
named Best Actress at the recent Saints & Sinners IV
film festival for her work in 'Behind the Nine'.

complete list of winners here:
http://www.renegadefilms.net/festival.html

SAINTS & SINNERS IV WINNERS ANNOUNCED!

Sinners:

Best Actress: Dawn Smith - BEHIND THE NINE

Martin


author: Ovum

subject: Re: A plug...'Behind the Nine' screens at festivals in Kentucky and Florida soo

text:
Go Martay!

Lois

------------------------------------------------

A blank page is God showing you how hard it is to be God.


author: Abdul Kabowski

subject: Re: First airlines, now auto companies

text:
Jim Jam Bonks wrote:

the
my
going
you
NOT
can
answers

Who cares what fat people think?


author: Don Schneider

subject: Re: First airlines, now auto companies

text:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:01:42 -0400 (AMT), "Abdul Kabowski"
<[email]> wrote:

How desperate for attention you are that you're now replying to your
own socks.

Don Schneider MCP
Internet Administrator


subject: Re: First airlines, now auto companies

text:
Don Schneider wrote:

law
(!)
in
down
and
Day
seatbelt
else
an
will
seatbelts
law
can
to
they
purpose

I am a new internet user, whats a sock?


author: Schlockhack

subject: Here's a perfect example of a high-concept movie

text:
Damn, wish I'd come up with this idea first!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2136682/


author: Martin B

subject: Re: Here's a perfect example of a high-concept movie

text:
On 17/12/2012 01:42 AM, Schlockhack wrote:

I like this one:

"Arnold Schwarzenegger has committed to appearing in at least one new
"Terminator" movie. In the next movie, Arnold from the future will time
travel to the past and tell Arnold from the past to wear a condom."
ï¿½Craig Ferguson

--
Martin B


text:
On 17/12/2012 01:42 AM, Schlockhack wrote:

1313: UFO Invasion

Hunky college age boy strips to his underwear. Hunky college age boy
ends up walking slowly down the hall and stairs in his underwear. There
you go.

UFO = "U're Fucking Orsome" I presume.

--
Martin B


author: Paul A. Thomas

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Way back on February 21st of this year

Fortunately for Larken, justice was served, just not with a side of
"liberty".


author: cpt banjo

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Tim wrote:

Not quite.  The first federal income tax, which applied within each
state,  was enacted in 1861; the constitutionality of the successor of
this act was upheld by the Supreme Court in 1880.


author: Dave Johnson

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
"AllYou!" <[email]>

right, larken rose just didn't want to pay taxes on earnings and his
sales of internet tax scam Cd's.  the convoluted "861" is just a
pretext for the scam
he will go to jail like any other tax scammer, lynn meredith, irwin
schiff, etc.

www.quatlosers.com internet tax scams
www.evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html


author: Tim

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Paul A. Thomas wrote:

Another innocent person being sent to jail just because a venal
government is in need of all the money it can extort from the people is
not justice.  While Larken's arguments were incorrect, his standing
against tyranny will sooner or later be recognized.  When the colonists
fought Great Britain, only about 3% of the people took part at any one
time in the fight.  Things have not changed much.  Only a few today
recognize the tyranny that exists and who have the courage to stand
against it.  It is sad that so many Americans, or I should say
pusillanimous and ignoble excuses for Americans, such as yourself, lack
the vision and will to contend against a government which has enslaved
its masters, i.e., We the People.

"The great German poet, Goethe, who also lived through a crisis of
freedom, said to his generation: 'What you have inherited from your
fathers, earn over again for yourselves or it will not be yours.' We
inherited freedom. We seem unaware that freedom has to be remade and
re-earned in each generation of man."  ADLAI E. STEVENSON

If these Commentaries shall but inspire in the rising generation a more
ardent love of their country, an unquenchable thirst for liberty, and a
profound reverence for the constitution and the union, then they will
have accomplished all that their author ought to desire. Let the
American youth never forget that they possess a noble inheritance,
bought by the toils, and sufferings, and blood of their ancestors; and
capable, if wisely improved, and faithfully guarded, of transmitting to
their latest posterity all the substantial blessings of life, the
peaceful enjoyment of liberty, property, religion, and independence. The
structure has been erected by architects of consummate skill and
fidelity; its foundations are solid; its compartments are beautiful as
well as useful; its arrangements are full of wisdom and order; and its
defences are impregnable from without. It has been reared for
immortality, if the work of man may justly aspire to such a title. It
may, nevertheless, perish in an hour by the folly, or corruption, or
negligence of its only keepers, THE PEOPLE. Republics are created by the
virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when
the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be
honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people
in order to betray them.
	JOSEPH STORY, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 2d
ed., vol. 2, chapter 45, p.617 (1851). This passage was not in the first
edition, but in all later editions.
Justice Story served in Congress 1808-1809.


author: AllYou!

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
"Tim" <[email]> wrote in message
news:j385f.4857$[email]...

But he didn't do that.  What he did was to pick an obscure provision in the
income tax code, purposefully misinterpret it, and then tried to use that
misinterpretation to avoid paying income taxes.  If he were standing against
tyranny, he'd of just refused outright.

Sure they have.  You qualified your statement with "at any one time".  What your
statistic doesn't address is what is meant by "took part", or whether or not
that 3% was just part of a 5% portion, or a 20% portion, or an 80% portion.  In
the case of tax protestors, the overall portion of the population who have ever
taken part in civil disobedience on the matter is very, very small.

What's more, in the case of the colonists, none of that population had a voice
in taxation policy.  In this case, the tax code reflects the decision of
American society on how it wants to be taxed.

Implicit in that argument is the extreme arrogance that you know the truth which
escapes the overwhelming majority of our population.  In fact, in describing
Americans in that way, it's much more than implicit arrogance, it's the overt
refusal to accept any difference of opinion.  We the people have decided, and
we've rejected your position.  You deal very poorly with rejection.

Lots of people say lots of things.  So what?


subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
"Tim" <[email]> wrote

Then fix it by changing the laws, not pretending they don't exist, don't
apply, or that you are comehow magically exempt.

And that, is exactly why he will be incarcerated.


subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Paul A. Thomas wrote:

One does not need magic when the truth will do.

I doubt if Larken was liable for the tax.

As I have pointed out before, the federal income tax is pursuant to art.
4 s. 3 cl. 2.  While some persons are, most Americans are not liable for
that tax.  The United States Goverment owns better than 20% of the
United States.  The federal income tax is a tax on those persons who are
subject to its legislative jurisdiction.  That is the reason why the
term "citizen of the United States who is subject to its jurisdiction"
is defined at 26 CFR ï¿½ 1.1-1(c).  Congress is acting in its capacity as
a quasi state government over its property and territory.  Congress is
taxing citizens of the United States who are domiciled upon its property
regardless of where they work or temporarily reside, others who reside
or work and earn income upon its property, those who work for the
Government or its instrumentalities, aliens, either resident or
non-resident who work or conduct business throughout the United States,
and probably others.  The tax, with some exceptions (see above), does
not apply to those citizens of the several States who work within areas
subject to the exclusive legislative jurisdictions of the several States.


author: John Ockerbloom

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Tim  <[email]> wrote:

and later

I see we have a doctrinal dispute here within the tax denier community,
between the "861 exempts me from taxes" camp, and the "I can escape taxes
by claiming to be outside the jurisdiction of the federal government" camp.

Tim appears to be in the latter camp, which has a longer history
of prosyletizing-- and therefore of failure in the courts-- than the 861
camp has.  The "861" argument appears to have first been widely promoted by
Thurston Bell in the mid-1990s, and then taken up by Larken Rose and various
online disciples.  With Bell's injunction and Rose's recent conviction, it's
unclear how much traction the 861 camp will have in getting more converts.
(Of course, some tax deniers inhabit both camps, and more.  My guess is
that they feel better if they have *lots* of rationalizations to justify not
paying income taxes, in case one or more of them proves dubious.)

The "I can escape jurisdiction here in my home state" sect goes back decades.
One of the big proponents of years past was Mitch Modeleski (aka Paul
Andrew Mitchell, aka a few other names) whose online book _The
Federal Zone_ was widely distributed on the Net starting in the
early 1990s.  Exactly how one is supposed to escape jurisdiction has
varied depending on who you asked and when.  The failure of any of the
recommended techniques to actually work when they've been tried in court
has left some tax deniers unfazed, but has led some others to cast around
more and more widely for the right magic words to invoke
in one's defense.  Renouncing one's social security number, driver's
license, and birth certificate; refusing to use zip codes and two-letter
state abbreviations; avoiding applying words like "resident" and "taxpayer"
to oneself; and insisting that courts not use all-caps to name people
or places, or have gold fringes on their flags have all been
seen online as proposed ways of getting out of tax liability.
None of them have yet to work.

Dan Evans' "Tax Protester FAQ" at http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html has
some coverage of this wing of the tax denier movement, though
Joseph Adams's old "Tax Protestor Hall of Fame" (now offline) had probably
the biggest online collection of cases involving jurisdiction
arguments going down in flames.  I wasn't sure how popular this
line of argument was among tax deniers these days-- fashions tend
to come and go-- but Tim shows that it's still alive and well
in some quarters.

John Mark Ockerbloom


author: Paul Thomas, CPA

subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
"Tim" <[email]> wrote

Right.

Still, he lost and will do jail time.


subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Paul Thomas, CPA wrote:

He should never have been on trial.

The fraud of the federal income tax can be understood by most people.
The premise that most tax protestor have relied upon in attacking the
income tax has been in error.  Wrong premise, wrong conclusions.  That
incorrect premise is that the income tax is pursuant to article 1 s. 8
cl. 1.  It is not.

The Government used the exigencies of and the excess patriotism
engendered by WWII to fraudulently extend the reach of the federal
income tax into the several States.  The IRS was not created by Congress
pursuant to article I sec. 8 cl. 18 and is constitutionally incompetent
to collect an article 1 sec. 8 cl. 1 tax.    The tax it is collecting is
pursuant to article 4 s. 3 cl. 2.  That is the reason why no document
can be found creating internal revenue districts within the several
States.  TDO 150-01 delegates authority to the Commissioner to
administer the taxes in ï¿½U.S. Territories and Insular Possessions.  The
Commissioner shall, to the extent of authority otherwise vested in him,
provide for the administration of the United States internal revenue
laws in the U.S. territories and insular possessions and other
authorized areas of the world.ï¿½  No such document can be found
authorizing the administration of internal revenue laws within internal
revenue districts within the several States.

   Lawrence v. Wardell, 273 F. 405, decided May 2, 1921, in the Circuit
Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit:  [1] The power of Congress, in
the imposition of taxes and providing for the collection thereof in the
possessions of the United States, is not restricted by constitutional
provision  (section 8, article 1), which may limit its general power of
taxation as to uniformity and apportionment when legislating for the
mainland or United States proper, for it acts in the premises under the
authority of clause 2, section 3, article 4, of the Constitution, which
clothes Congress with power to make all needful rules and regulations
respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United
States.  Binns v. United States, 194 U.S. 486, 24 Sup.Ct. 816, 48 L.Ed.
1087; Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, 21 Sup.Ct. 770, 45 L.Ed. 1088.

The IRS was created by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to
statutory authority:

596 F.Supp. 141, Young v. I.R.S., (D.C.Ind. 1984)
[11] Plaintiff attempts to circumvent this conclusion by arguing that
the IRS is "a private corporation" because it was not created by "any
positive law" (i.e., statute of Congress) but rather by fiat of the
Secretary of the Treasury.  Apparently, this argument is based on the
fact that in 1953 the Secretary of the Treasury renamed the Bureau of
Internal Revenue as the Internal Revenue Service.  However, it is clear
that the Secretary of the Treasury has full authority to administer and
enforce the Internal Revenue Code, 26 U.S.C. Sec. 7801, and has the
power to create an agency to administer and enforce the laws.  See 26
U.S.C. Sec. 7803(a).  Pursuant to this legislative grant of authority,
the Secretary of the Treasury created the IRS.  26 C.F.R. Sec. 601.101.
  The end result is that the IRS is a creature of "positive law" because
it was created through congressionally mandated power.  By plaintiff's
own "positive law" premise, then, the IRS is a validly created
governmental agency and not a "private corporation."

The IRS is not an agency of the United States Goverment:
http://www.lr-n-r.org/irsnara0.htm

It is a corporation, which is defined by statute to be a federal agency:
See 5 USC ï¿½ 103 and 26 USC ï¿½ 6402(f)

Other that state officers, only appointed officers of the United States
serving in the office of collector of internal revenue and with one
assigned to each internal revenue district created within the several
States could be authorized to oversee the collection of taxes laid
pursuant to article 1 sec. 8 cl. 1:

Federalist Papers, James Madison, Number 45, Pg.295 - Pg.296
The number of individuals employed under the Constitution of the United
States will be much smaller than the number employed under the
particular States. There will consequently be less of personal influence
on the side of the former than of the latter. The members of the
legislative, executive, and judiciary departments of thirteen and more
States, the justices of peace, officers of militia, ministerial officers
of justice, with all the county, corporation, and town officers, for
three millions and more of people, intermixed and having particular
acquaintance with every class and circle of people must exceed, beyond
all proportion, both in number and influence, those of every description
who will be employed in the administration of the federal system. [***]
If the federal government is to have collectors of revenue, the State
governments will have theirs also. And as those of the former will be
principally on the seacoast, and not very numerous, whilst those of the
latter will be spread over the face of the country, and will be very
numerous, the advantage in this view also lies on the same side. It is
true that the Confederacy is to possess, and may exercise, the power of
collecting internal as well as external taxes throughout the States; but
it is probable that this power will not be resorted to, except for
supplemental purposes of revenue; that an option will then be given to
the States to supply their quotas by previous collections of their own;
and that the eventual collection, under the immediate authority of the
Union, will generally be made by the officers, and according to the
rules, appointed by the several States. [***]  Should it happen,
however, that separate collectors of internal revenue should be
appointed under the federal government, the influence of the whole
number would not bear a comparison with that of the multitude of State
officers in the opposite scale. Within every district to which a federal
collector would be allotted, there would not be less than thirty or
forty, or even more, officers of different descriptions, and many of
them persons of character and weight whose influence would lie on the
side of the State.

In 1952, President Truman fired the collectors of internal revenue and
abolished the position (by what authority) and assigned the duties of
that office to the Bureau of Internal Revenue/Internal Revenue Service.
  Note what is stated below about their not being "fully responsive" to
their superiors.  They were being asked to commit a fraud upon their
fellow citizens:

   Paragraph from Reorganization Plan No. 1of 1952.  ï¿½The principal
barrier to effective organization and administration of the Bureau of
Internal Revenue which plan No. 1 removes is the archaic statutory
office of collector of internal revenue.  Since the collectors are not
appointed and cannot be removed by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue
or the Secretary of the Treasury and since the collectors must
accommodate themselves to local political situations, they are not fully
responsive to the control of their superiors in the Treasury Department.
Residence requirements prevent moving a collector from one collection
district to another, either to promote impartiality and fairness or to
advance collectors to more important positions.  Uncertainties of tenure
add to the difficulty of attracting to such offices persons who are well
versed in the intricacies of the revenue laws and possessed of
broadgaged administrative ability.ï¿½


subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Gosh!  You mean that Sections 7801 through 7804 of the Code have no
meaning?

Let's see ...

Section 7801 - (a)(1)  In General.-Except as otherwise expressly provided
by law, the administration and enforcement of this title shall be
performed by or under the supervision of the Secretary of the Treasury.

Section 7803 - (a)(1)(A) In General.-There shall be in the Department of
the Treasury a Commissioner of Internal Revenue who shall be appointed by
the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to a
5-year term.  Such appointment shall be made from individuals who, among
other qualifications, have a demonstrated ability in management.

Section 7803 - (a)(2) Duties.-The Commissioner shall have such duties and
powers as the Secretary may prescribe, including the power to - (A)
administer, manage, conduct, direct, and supervise the execution and
application of the internal revenue laws or related statutes and tax
conventions to which the United States is a party; and ....

Section 7804 - (a) Apointment And Supervision.-Unless otherwise prescribed
by the Secretary, the Commissioner of Internal Revenue is authorized to
employ such number of persons as the Commissioner deems proper for the
administration and enforcement of the internal revenue laws, and the
Commissioner shall issue all necessary directions, instructions, orders,
and rules applicable to such persons.

Treasury Order 150-10:

By virtue of the authority vested in me as Secretary of the Treasury,
including the authority in the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 and
Reorganization Plan No. 26 of 1950, it is hereby ordered:

1. The Commissioner of Internal Revenue shall be responsible for the
administration and enforcement of the Internal Revenue laws.

Yup, I guess you're right - nothin' in there about the IRS being an agency
of the United States or about the IRS being able to enforce the internal
revenue laws of the United States.


subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
"Tim" <[email]> wrote

He should have never asked - nay, begged - to be tried.

He should have filed his tax returns and paid his taxes.


subject: Re: And Justice for All

text:
Paul A. Thomas wrote:

Agreed.  One is foolish to needlessly antagonize a vicious animal.

Not unless he was liable for the tax.  Innocent people have been tried
and convicted for alleged criminal acts throughout history.  The
American people no longer understand the law nor their roles as a check
on government power when they serve on juries.  They are just good
little sheeple at present, good little Germans, of whom their Government
is taking advantage.  When the corruption has run its course, this
nation will also collapse into the dust as such corrupt governments
cause their destruction.  Our corrupt monetary system must sooner or
later run its course, then the collapse will come.  How many trillions
of dollars in debt is the U.S.?


author: Cyrillis

subject: FS: PB 5xx series 8 Meg RAM....

text:
$300 OBO - I'll pay shipping.

used roughly 9 months, installed by apple certified tech, works fine.

I'm upgrading my system and need to get rid of the old SIMM.  This means
that I won't have the chip ready to ship until I get the new one, but it
should only be a couple of weeks.

reply E-MAIL ONLY to [email]

thanks.

--- --- ---

  *   ~   +    Chris Petersen (xris)             [email]
 "  +   #  "
#  o   o  *    http://www.whitman.edu/~peterscc/
"  |\^/|  '
 '  \V/  '     "In old days men studied for the sake of self-improvement;
'   /_\    '    nowadays men study in order to impress other people."
   _/ \_                                         - Confucius


author: buffboy

subject: Great Used Software & Books For Sale (Not Spam!)

text:
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author: SUN GEM

subject: "LOWEST WHOLESALE PRICES"

text:
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poducts at 626-369-7587 and we will fax or e-mail back a qty. product
prices.


author: Bruce S. Jaffe

subject: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
I recently received a proxy card from Fidelity Balanced for a July
shareholder meeting to vote on some 22 proposals.  It was accompanied
by a 122-page statement explaining these proposals.  Trouble is, it
is not only long, but also written in too detailed and complex a
manner as to be easily digested by a relatively novice investor.

I fail to see why the issues can't be summarized in plain English,
with pros and cons clearly spelled out, in a half dozen pages at most.

If there is a more enlightened shareholder out there somewhere who
would be willing to explain the significance the proposals, I would
be very greatful.  You would be providing insight that Fidelity
itself should be furnishing, considering the vastly increasing hordes
of investors like myself who are new to the world of mutual funds
and need a bit of extra guideance.


author: Mayasandra Srikrishna P030

subject: Re: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
In article <2t5s57$[email]>, [email] (Bruce S. Jaffe) writes:

Hello,

With regards to the above, I have the same dillema. In addition to
Fidelity Balanced as described above, I received a similar one
for FIDELEITY BLUE CHIP GROWTH.

Any guidance from other Fidelity MF account holders regarding this will
be helpful.

Thanks a lot in advance...

Srikrishna..
email : [email]


author: Doug DePrenger

subject: Re: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
In article <2t5s57$[email]>, [email] (Bruce S. Jaffe) writes:
|>
|> I recently received a proxy card from Fidelity Balanced for a July
|> shareholder meeting to vote on some 22 proposals.  It was accompanied
|> by a 122-page statement explaining these proposals.  Trouble is, it
|> is not only long, but also written in too detailed and complex a
|> manner as to be easily digested by a relatively novice investor.
|>
|> I fail to see why the issues can't be summarized in plain English,
|> with pros and cons clearly spelled out, in a half dozen pages at most.
|>
|> If there is a more enlightened shareholder out there somewhere who
|> would be willing to explain the significance the proposals, I would
|> be very greatful.  You would be providing insight that Fidelity
|> itself should be furnishing, considering the vastly increasing hordes
|> of investors like myself who are new to the world of mutual funds
|> and need a bit of extra guideance.

   I voted against nearly all the proposals. I voted for keeping the current
   managers and accountants. It looked like Fidelity wanted a blank check on
   what they can invest in. The one that bothered me was the proposal that
   the fund could invest 100% of their money in a similar fund...in other
   words the manager you see in the prospectus may not be the real manager.

   doug in Sun Diego


author: Greg Philmon

subject: Re: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
Usually they include the board's recommendations.  Vote against them on
all issues.  Then send a letter explaining what you did and why to the
members of the board.  Tell them that you want a summary of the items
in plain English.

Get involved!

These board members are always suppose to have the interests of the
shareholders as their top priority!  This seldom if ever happens.

What's funny is that, at the same time, they are complaining about
corporate boards (of companies in which their fund invests) being
lax about safeguarding and furthering the interests of the
shareholders.

What hypocrites!


author: Mel Hulse

subject: Re: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
Greg Philmon ([email]) wrote:
: > I recently received a proxy card from Fidelity Balanced for a July
: > shareholder meeting to vote on some 22 proposals.  It was accompanied
: > by a 122-page statement explaining these proposals.  Trouble is, it
: > is not only long, but also written in too detailed and complex a
: > manner as to be easily digested by a relatively novice investor.

: Usually they include the board's recommendations.  Vote against them on
: all issues.  Then send a letter explaining what you did and why to the
: members of the board.  Tell them that you want a summary of the items
: in plain English.

They are in plain English.  The issues are somewhat complicated, but any
person of average intelligence carefully reading the material can figure
out what Fidelity proposes to do and why these things should lead to
better fund performance.

: Get involved!

Yeah!  Read the material.  Given your approach, everyone shuld vote
against anything they don't wish to take the time to understand!!!
Sorry, but my feeling is that if you don't have the time to supervise
your investments, you better pay a brocker to do it for (to?) you.

: These board members are always suppose to have the interests of the
: shareholders as their top priority!  This seldom if ever happens.

: What's funny is that, at the same time, they are complaining about
: corporate boards (of companies in which their fund invests) being
: lax about safeguarding and furthering the interests of the
: shareholders.

Seems to me they went to a lot of trouble to carefully describe the
proposals and their expected effect.  Read it.

: What hypocrites!

If you don't like Fidelity's management style, vote with your feet.
Otherwise, read the material and vote in your self interest.


author: Barry Margolin

subject: Re: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Mel Hulse) writes:

Yes, the proposals by themselves are easy to understand.  But, as you say,
the issues are complex.  Many people invest in mutual funds specifically
because they want to avoid having to deal with complex investment vehicles.

I consider myself a reasonably astute investor, but I don't know much about
some of the fancy investment techniques that I've been voting into nearly
all the funds I own.  But since I don't know much about them, I also don't
know that they're a *bad* idea.  I vote for them because I trust the boards
and managers of the funds I invest in.  Even though I don't feel
comfortable investing in options, repurchase agreements, etc., I expect
that the professional fund manager knows about these things.

Yes, these things may lead to better fund performance, but they also change
the risk level of the funds.  So it these changes may not be consistent
consistent with someone's reasons for investing in that fund.
Historically, stocks have performed better than bonds, but that doesn't
mean we should vote to allow a bond fund to invest heavily in stocks!


author: Chia-Huai Jer Cheng

subject: Re: Fidelity Balanced Proxy

text:
I voted no on the trustee's appointment of another person who can be repsonsibleif and when the current trustee is unable to perform, WITHOUT notification of
the holders.  I personally think that is a fine print where they can go out and
hire their children and/or hire someone they think can just fill the position.
Basically their will be a conflict of interests.  Otherwise I said yes to all.


author: Erik D Ker

subject: RE: ACTION ALERT

text:
On Saturday, Terry posted an action alert regarding the United Nations
Convention on the Rights of the Child.

He listed four reasons for concern:

[1]  If ratified the treaty becomes the law of the land.

While true, this argument is spurious, if the treaty is a good one.

[2]  It will destroy our parental rights.

While some rights are listed in the posting, they are not referenced as to
their location in treaty.  Could you Terry-N-Lynn, provide more detail to
support your concerns?

[3]  The UN convention is not needed in the US... We already have laws
protecting children.

Article 41 of the convention specifically

                                   Article 41
      Nothing in the present Convention shall affect any provisions which are
 more conducive to the realization of the rights of the child and which may be
 contained in:

      (a)  The law of a State Party; or
      (b)  International law in force for that State.

I would take the to mean, if our laws better protect the child, they have
precedence.

[4]  The Convention ... henerating hefty litigation costs as parents through
out the country resist this attack on their parental rights.

Only a problem if the rights you state are there.

I have read the text of the document (thanks to whoever gave the gopher siter
for it! :-)  ).  I have seen some of the concerns you listed, yet I have read
other sections the seem to moderate these concerns.  It is my first time
through the text, I have come to no firm conclusions regarding it.  Could you,
or anyone else who has persued the matter, please provide more substantion for
your concerns?  Or, does anyone have a refutation of them?

BTW, the alert called for July action, yet, as far as I could tell, was posted
Saturday, July 30.  There are not July business days left in July to act.

Looking forward to follow up, either here or via email.

Thanks in advance,
Erik Ker
the treaty.


author: Mark Silbernagel

subject: Re: ACTION ALERT

text:
In article <31jg0v$[email]>,
Erik D Ker <[email]> wrote:

[...]

I read what appears to be, in many places, a painfully vague document
which talks of "the best interests of the child" and as often as not
fails to specify exactly which areas of the childs life we may be
turning our attention to. Sure, it does mention some, but far from all.

I am deeply concerned that someone else is determining what those
best interests are, and when you add that to an otherwise vague document
it does not take much imagination to see how it *will be abused* by
someone with an agenda and different point of view. It's only a matter
of time.

I read it and see a tool for massive state invervention in the family.

Look at the second amendment alone... how will *this* thing ever be useful?

Sadly, many issues the UN document seems to be addressing are in fact
important.

Mark

---


author: Dean Schulze

subject: RE: ACTION ALERT

text:
Erik Ker, responding to Terry & Lynn, writes:

                                   Article 41

    Point [3] above is by itself a good reason to oppose the UN convention.
Any unneeded law could provide fodder for some judge to impose his/her agenda
on the rest of the country in an undemocratic act of judicial fiat.  I am
not willing to take that chance with my rights or my family.

    As far as article 41 is concerned, it is vital to remember that our
freedoms are often maintained because certain pieces of legislation were
defeated and no laws at all exist to regulate certain things.

    Mr. Justice Thomas recently said "Freedom's dirty little secret is that
you are on your own."  That's a very profound statement.  If we want to keep
our freedom we have to insist on having a minimalist government.

Dean Schulze


author: Dave Williams

subject: Re: ACTION ALERT

text:
In article [email],  [email] (Dean Schulze) writes:
=> ...
=>    Point [3] above is by itself a good reason to oppose the UN convention.
=>Any unneeded law could provide fodder for some judge to impose his/her agenda
=>on the rest of the country in an undemocratic act of judicial fiat.  I am
=>not willing to take that chance with my rights or my family.
=>
=>    As far as article 41 is concerned, it is vital to remember that our
=>freedoms are often maintained because certain pieces of legislation were
=>defeated and no laws at all exist to regulate certain things.
=>
=>    Mr. Justice Thomas recently said "Freedom's dirty little secret is that
=>you are on your own."  That's a very profound statement.  If we want to keep
=>our freedom we have to insist on having a minimalist government.
=>
=>Dean Schulze
=>

I certainly agree. The *last* thing we need is some judge or legislator
taking this and running with it. BTW, where did the quote from Justice
Thomas come from?

---
[email]    | "Each evening, thousands of bats swarm from under the
David Williams            |  Congress st. bridge in Austin - on their way to the state
Ericsson Network Systems  |  capital, where they work..."
Richardson, TX 75081      |


author: Jimmy Carter

subject: Burlington...

text:
Mabey I,v had my head in the sand all last week....Did any one hear that
Burlington
 went bankrut? 2000 Drivers?...Don't see any mention of  it in this
NG...Just wondering....Thanks...


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
We got a Quallcomm message about it.  My company wants us to try and
recruit their drivers!   Sheeeeze~!


author: MAGNOLIATR

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
www.landlinemag.com

on the cover is the story of Burlington filling bankruptcy chapter 11 !


author: Robert Evans

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
What company do you work for?

<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Allan & Mary

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Don't bother.   Drivers are stilling being paid and the miles are as
good as ever.     Oh yeah.  Canadians avg 46.5cpm

When the first payment does come well send you a message.

mary e.
Wife of BMC driver.


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Wow you all make it sound like the company  has closed the doors.   Nothing
of the kind.   Company is running in a business as usually.   Paychecks are
being deposited.   Miles are still there.  Customers are still calling.

There are about 2200 trucks, 5500 trailers ..
Last count 1756 drivers.

It is just a restructuring of finances.

Mary e.
P.S Hubby is a company driver on Canadian Division.


author: Barry Helveston

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
I bet I know, since I got beeped about it, too.

"Robert Evans" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Well, I really shouldn't say, but, here's a couple of  hints.  I pull
an orange trailer but it DOESN'T say Atlas on it!  And some guy named
"Don" signs my checks! :)


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Should read what I write before I post.

The first bounced cheque we will send you a message.

Mary e.


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
That last sentence made no sense.  Should read what I write.

When the first cheque bounces we'll send you a message.
Not that we are expecting it anytime soon.

mary e.

Allan & Mary wrote:


author: Devildog

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Why is is when a BIG company files the BK,its OKAY,but when you or I do
it,ITS BAD NEWS!!!Lets just say I run up all my credit cards,file chapter
7,then call it a restructuring of finances.I need a vacation anyway.


author: Peter

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Well just maybe, but then does any one remember, Maislin, how 'bout
Glengarry, Taggart, Humes Transport, CP Express+Transport,(they called it
Interlink towards the end).

  Hell these are just the ones off the top of my head, guys report for work
and there's a chain accross the gate.

   Almost forgot, the Route Canada fiasco.

Pete

sorry for not comming up with any US examples.

Allan & Mary <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Nothing
are


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
I never said they closed doors just posted where you can ready about what took
place!


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
When the first cheque bounces we will send you a message.

Mary e.
I must have heat stroke today.
Sorry about that :)

Allan & Mary wrote:


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
"Devildog" wrote :Why is is when a BIG company files the BK,its OKAY,but when
you or I do
it,ITS BAD NEWS!!!Lets just say I run up all my credit cards,file chapter

*******************************************

I would love to know that also.
If  you find out then let  me know ok :0)


author: tscottme

subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
Devildog wrote:

Who said it was OK?  Do you think BMC will have drivers beating down
their door to hire on?  Do you think that BMC will have a harder time
getting credit?

You have to recognize the difference between reorganizing and skipping
out on debts, personal or commercial.  Only a fool would think that
either type of bankruptcy has no consequence.

Nobody here would enjoy receiving a letter saying that a person or
company that owes us money is filling for protection and we won't see
that money or will receive only pennies on the dollar.  That being the
case it's still wrong to do that to other people or companies, if there
is any alternative.  Of course this requires one have a conscience, and
that is becoming less likely each year.

Scott


subject: Re: Burlington...

text:
What about just recently laidlaws' school division.  File for protection
against creditors and they are still hiring.

This happens alot no matter what industry you are in.    Some end up closing
the doors others remain in operation for years under protection.  Eventually
coming out as stronger companies.

Time will Tell.

Mary e.


subject: Burlington files chapter 11

text:
Burlington Motor Carriers files for voluntary reorganization under Chapter 11

Burlington Motor Carriers Inc.of Daleville, IN, filed for voluntary
reorganization under Chapter 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code on July 9.
According to Burlington's attorney, Paul Deignan, the motor carrier plans to
continue operating.

OOIDA President Jim Johnston says Burlington filing bankruptcy will not have
any effect on OOIDA's commitment to pursue equitable resolution of the issues
raised in its recently-filed class action lawsuit. In late March, OOIDA filed a
class action suit, along with two of its owner-operator members, against
Burlington Motor Carriers. OOIDA alleges undisclosed mark-up in insurance costs
passed on to the company's leased owner-operators and is seeking a
court-ordered end to these overcharge practices.

In OOIDA's complaint, filed in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of
Indiana, the association alleges that despite Burlington's agreement and
obligation to charge back premiums for insurance coverage purchased through the
company, it was deducting amounts from owner-operator compensation
substantially in excess of the actual premiums. Under the federal
truth-in-leasing regulations, motor carriers are only allowed to deduct from
compensation for those items clearly specified in the lease.

OOIDA's Johnston said that, while it is common to purchase insurance through
their carrier, an owner-operator has the right to documents necessary to
validate the coverage, and the lease must recite how the charge for insurance
was calculated. The complaint alleges that insurance information was not
properly supplied by Burlington.

According to Deignan, also filing a Chapter 11 is Jolliff Transportation, Inc.,
a Peoria, IL, company that operates as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Burlington.
Burlington acquired Jolliff in June of 1999.

BURLINGTON'S TANGLED HISTORY
Burlington Motor Carriers is headquartered in Daleville, IN, and operates in 48
states, Mexico and Canada. Once part of transportation giant Burlington
Northern Inc. (parent company of the Burlington Northern Railroad), Burlington
Motor Carriers has gone through a complicated series of ownership changes and
corporate restructuring, including a previous Chap. 11 in 1995.

Originally known as Burlington Northern Motor Carriers, the company was formed
through the acquisition of five trucking firms. In 1988, the five subsidiaries
were bought by the subsidiaries' management and a group of New York banking
firms and renamed Burlington Motor Carriers.

In 1990, the five companies merged into one big company and was based in Texas.
The carrier's headquarters moved to Daleville, IN. Soon after, BMC collapsed
under what the Indianapolis Business Journal describes as "mounting debt." In
December of 1995, Burlington made headlines with bankruptcy proceedings. The
bankruptcy resulted in a bidding war over the company. In a surprise
last-minute bid, Thomas Grojean and a group of investors outmaneuvered the
Celadon Group, Indianapolis, for the assets of the bankrupt Burlington Motor
Holdings. According to Traffic World, (July '96), the company was bought for
$169 million and the result was a partnership between Grojean and private
investors to run Burlington. Grojean is the current chairman and chief
executive of Burlington.