author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Solutions Manuals, Instructor Manuals, Test Banks collection 2011 #2

text:
Please send me this:
C# Programming:  From Problem Analysis to Program Design, 2nd Edition,
Barbara Doyle, Instructor Manual & Solutions Manual


text:
Hey just looking for the solutions manual to this book.

C++ Programming:  Program Design Including Data Structures, 5th
Edition 2011, Malik, Instructor Manual & Solutions Manual

Thanks for any help,
Josh


subject: Solutions Manuals, Instructor Manuals, Test Banks collection 2011 #2

text:
Can you send me:

Calculus:  Early Transcendental Functions, 3rd Edition, Smith, Minton, Instuctors Solution Manual

The book with all the problems?
Thanks


text: Can I have the solution manual for Network security essentials 4th edition. Thank you so much


text:
Can you please send me:

Calculus:  Single and Multivariable, 5th Edition, Hughes-Hallett,
Instructor Manual & Solutions Manual

Calculus:  Single and Multivariable, 5th Edition, Hughes-Hallett, Test
Bank

Thank you in advance!


text:
Can you please send me:

Calculus:  Single and Multivariable, 5th Edition, Hughes-Hallett,
Instructor Manual & Solutions Manual

Calculus:  Single and Multivariable, 5th Edition, Hughes-Hallett, Test
Bank

Thank you so much in advance!


text: Could you please send me a download link for C# Programming: From Problem Analysis to Program Design, 3rd Edition 2011, Barbara Doyle, Solutions Manual. I would greatly appreciate it!


text:
Could i get C# Programming:  From Problem Analysis to Program Design, 3rd Edition
2011, Barbara Doyle, Solutions Manual

do you know where i could get project 2010 and access 2010 solutions manual also


text:
On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:11:48 AM UTC-5, stu.p24 wrote:

 I need test bank for Politics in America, Dye, 7 or 8 ed, can anyone help me??


text:
Can you please send me the Instructor Solution Manual for this book:

Calculus:  Early Transcendental Functions, 3rd Edition, Smith, Minton,
Solutions Manual

Thanks a lot....


text:
how do i get this? C# Programming:  From Problem Analysis to Program Design, 3rd Edition
2011, Barbara Doyle, Solutions Manual


text:
Can you please send me these books?

Data Structures Using C++, 2nd Edition, Malik, Instructor Manual &
Solutions Manual
Data Structures Using C++, 2nd Edition, Malik, Test Bank

Thank you very much :)
I will be forever grateful to you..


text:
can I have: C++ How to Program, 3rd Edition, Deitel, Nieto, Solution Manual
C++ How to Program, 6th Edition, Harvey, Paul, Deitel, Deitel,
Solutions Manual
C++ How to Program, 6th Edition, Harvey, Paul, Deitel, Deitel, Test
Bank
C++ How to Program, 7th Edition, Deitel, Deitel, Instructor Manual &
Solutions Manual
C++ How to Program, 7th Edition, Deitel, Deitel, Test Bank

Thanks a lot!

Happy New Year to everyone!


text:
If you can send me this book
C++ Programming:  From Problem Analysis to Program Design, 5th Edition
2011, Malik, Instructor Manual & Solutions Manual


text:
Can you send me this book, please.
C++ Programming: Program Design Including Data Structures 4th edition

Thank you.


text:
Can I have:

Calculus, 9th Edition 2010, Larson, Edwards, Instructor Manual
Calculus, 9th Edition 2010, Larson, Edwards, Test Bank

Plz plz plz! :)


text:
If you can send me this book
C++ Programming:  From Problem Analysis to Program Design, 5th Edition
2011, Malik, Instructor Manual & Solutions Manual
I would be in debt with you.


text:
What do you have for "c++ programming program design including data structures 5th edition by Malik".

Thx


text: i need Contemporary Nutrition, 8th Edition 2011, Wardlaw, Smith, Test Bank can you help me out with it ?


author: Guv Bob

text:
<[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...
On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:11:48 AM UTC-5, stu.p24 wrote:

Got any copies of Captain Billy's Whizbang?


author: alpro

subject: Re: BWAS

text:
The Stud wrote:

I can find no evidence at all that it exists in any place but this
person's twisted mind. It has chosen to grace our group with it's
supposed existence. Apparently, due to the sheer number of references to
it, along with the creation of web pages that come down as fast as they
are created.....it has no life either....

Wishful thinking.....

~Tony~


subject: Re: BWAS

text:
karen47 wrote:

Well....I'm sure that this cannot be true. I am one person, have always
posted as such, and unless I am doing this from heaven, I suppose it is
quite reasonable to assume that I do, indeed.......exist on some level.

Actually, I have never typed the words, towards any of your various
identities. I don't happen to think that BWAS exists, ever did, or ever
will. Why? Because you have offered enough evidence in here to suggest and
assure that some reference would be out there, if it did. The fact is
though, there is none. You've eluded to enforcement action being taken by
LEO's, and there is nothing to support that claim either.

You're making all this up, and one poster might just have the reason
why....

For hits.....and cookies.......

Criminals? There might be something to that....are you looking for info on
PC's? Are you possibly familiar with the hacking "profession"?

Folks....if you visit the websites this person posts references to, under
any and all of it's names, you're taking  a chance. If it were me, I'd be
checking my browser security settings.....and setting them to at least
medium....

That might just make sense. I not only bark.....I bite....

Why shave your head?

Why do you defend Swift?

Why are you a dyke?

Answer those questions that have been posed to you numerous times, before
you ask any of others....

Until then.....nunya.....

~Tony~


author: Skateboard'n

subject: Re: BWAS

text:
"alpro" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

HUH?

~Toni~, the very simplest of cookie blocking programs such as the free
program CookieCop & firewalls can handle this kinda' thing.

Surely such a fabulous internet guru such as yourself uses these kinda'
basic programs?


author: Karen...company trainer

subject: Re: BWAS

text:
alpro <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...
 Why shave your head?
................I have a crew cut, I looks good on me and it's very
practical for trucking.
The women of the BWAS shave their heads for ritual reasons, I do not.
.........Swift is where I got my start in trucking after my divorce
and gave me a opportunity to become a trainer and instruct other
women. If it weren't for their not letting me run my own ship
(crew cuts for trainees) I would still be there. Where else can one go
from trainee to trainer in less than 7 months? I know no other company
that I could recommend as a better place to start out! So why are we
talking about me and Swift? The subject is the BWAS!
.....I'm not a Dyke or lesbian! I'm divorced have 5 grown children and
7 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren. I'm a fit 54 y.o. and men
(real men) find me attractive.
......Whatever you say!
........What's nunya?


author: Hawkeye-X

subject: Re: BWAS

text:
On 16 Sep 2002 17:00:08 -0700, [email]
(Karen...company trainer) wrote:

Then you're not a company trainer.  You're a bulldyke that likes to
force people to shave their hands to prove their loyality to Swift. I
bet if I wrote a letter to CEO of Swift, that their policy on allowing
the trainers free rein ESPECIALLY when it comes to their own personal
hygenie. I'm sure Swift will then do something... swiftly.

Ironic isn't it?

Hawkeye-X


author: Steve Johns

subject: @@ PENTIUM II 'SMART' UPGRADES @@

text:
--= [ N.O.C. INDUSTRIES & TECHNOLOGIES ] =--

                              440.323.7034
	  Custom PC systems, PC hardware outlet

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		  or: [email]

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****************************************************************
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This economical upgrade package includes:

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* Shuttle /or/ INTEL motherboard

* INTEL PENTIUM, PENTIUM PRO, PENTIUM II, or AMD K6 processor

* 16MB RAM

Get this package and simply install your old hard and floppy drives,
video and sound cards, multimedia, monitor and keyboard, and you have
a new PC that can run today's applications at a FRACTION OF THE COST
of buying a new system!

Prices:

1.} INTEL PENTIUM 133mhz package w/ SHUTTLE motherboard: $448.00
2.} INTEL PENTIUM 133mhz package w/ INTEL   motherboard: $473.00
3.} INTEL PENTIUM 166mhz package w/ SHUTTLE motherboard: $507.00
4.} INTEL PENTIUM 200mhz package w/ SHUTTLE motherboard: $575.00
5.} AMD MMX K6-133mhz: $499.00
6.} AMD MMX K6-200mhz: $552.00

*******************************************************************
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	16MB EDO RAM
	SHUTTLE P2 motherboard (ATX) 5-PCI, 3-ISA, w/512k cache, 1GB RAM capacity
	MID-TOWER (ATX) case w/200W power supply, 2-3.5"&3-5.25"bays

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  - Call or write for a quote.
* CHECK, certified check, M/O only.
* Prices do not include tax & shipping.
  Ohio residents please add 5.75% sales tax.
* Due to the market, prices can change without notice.

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(In the Cleveland/Lorain/Elyria, Ohio area only)

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author: Mike Hell

subject: FS: 1mb 30pin 70ns SIMMs

text:
I have 4 1mb 30pin 70ns SIMMS.

$120 obo

please email [email] for more info.


author: Ray Keller

subject: The Beautiful Coat

text:
The Beautiful Coat

              (YOU ARE GOING TO WATCH THIS MORE THAN ONCE ...oh, yes, you
are).

              It is a very short video. CLICK BELOW
              http://elrellano.com/videos_online/4624/circo-roncalli.html


author: imatoiletplunger

subject: Re: The Beautiful Coat

text:
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:10:38 -0700, "Ray Keller"
<[email]> wrote:

thanx for this... lost track of it a year ago and couldn't find it....
I was trying to find it last week...  amazing video....


author: Stormin Mormon

subject: Re: The Beautiful Coat

text:
What's it all about? And why would anyone
watch it more than once?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.

"imatoiletplunger" <[email]11> wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:10:38 -0700, "Ray Keller"
<[email]> wrote:

thanx for this... lost track of it a year ago and couldn't find it....
I was trying to find it last week...  amazing video....


author: Curt

subject: Re: OT Sheep Poodles and the Japanese ( on topic for NZers as sheep are involved )

text:
John Hanson wrote:

Ever have an incredible feeling of déjà vu?


author: John Hanson

text:
On 26 Apr 2007 19:18:58 -0700, Curt <[email]> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Yeah, well, I don't read this group much since the likes of you and
Davidson showed up.  rec.scuba has far more affluent, decent and gun
loving people in it.

I do believe I was at the last MFW get together.  I've been to two
such get together's since on rec.scuba and they all took umbrage of
me, for the most part, when I started posting there, but were more
than willing to invite me to put up or shut up, which I did.  I'm now
a regular, not because of posting, but from actual dives done with
those folks on these get together's.

It was you, Hudson, David the sheep fucker, OM and Davidson that
wrecked this group.  That's okay as I certainly don't need it as I
train with the best masters team in the world.  I'm off next week to
get my ass kicked by the most elite masters lifters in the country and
then I will fly down to Florida and spend some quality time diving
with some of the most elite divers around, namely, some of the folks
from rec.scuba.  Good luck masturbating in the mirror.


author: Omelet

text:
In article <[email]>,
 John Hanson <[email]> wrote:

Me???

I'm hardly a frequent poster. ;-)

Be sure to post jpegs of the meet!


author: MC

subject: Scuzzy Business

text:
TALES FROM THE TRENCHES # 468

Two years ago I was hired to write an episode of a live action drama
series. A kind of hybrid production involving a French producer, an
American producer and a US cable network. We negotiated a pretty
standard Writers Guild of Canada contract (because the prodco told me it
was under WGC jurisdiction) and I started writing. The contract was with
the French company. The notes were coming from the US end. No one
involved was fly-by-night - and in fact some had a pretty good track
record.

It all started well. Then it began to get a weird smellï¿½ phone calls and
e-mails not returned. Strange notes. Non-answer answers. Things weren't
quite kosher.

FINALLY an admission to my agent that the show was no longer in
production. It had halted during the writing of my episode. So I sent in
a bill.

And received no payment. Just a succession of weird stalling tactics,
and non-answers. And guess what? I call the WGC and it never was a guild
contract. So they can't do anything. Three months go by and no payment
and no response to any communication from my agent.

Fast forward a month. I'm in Paris on vacation. I figure I have nothing
to lose by showing up at the production company and making a very loud
fucking nuisance of myself.

I show up and discover they have closed the office and left no
forwarding address! I write a little note consisting of one word -
ï¿½voleursï¿½ (thieves) - and stick it on the door. I pretty much write it
off as a bad debt.

The next day I fly home. Check my internet banking and discover that
they have paid me -- literally as I was flying home!

Fast forward to last fall: Word trickles out that the show has been
taken over by another company - this time in Canada. And because it's in
Canada, the WGC *is* now involved, because the guild claims jurisdiction
over all TV production in Canada.

I contact the prodco and offer my services as a writer again. No reply.

Fast forward to yesterday: the WGC calls me and says ï¿½ï¿½as you probably
know, the episode you wrote two years ago has been filmed, andï¿½ï¿½

I say, WTF?????????

You see, according to the WGC contract, and therefore the contract I
signed, I am owed a fairly hefty fee as soon as it goes into production.
And of course, the prodco has not informed me that my episode has been
shot.

Anyway, this production is going forward under WGC jurisdiction, and
they haven't responded to any communication from the WGC, so I guess
there will be a few nasty moves and countermoves before it's all
resolved.

I just scratch my head and ask myself why almost every single TV show
I've ever worked on has been plagued by financial shenanigans of one
kind or another.

I love the writing, but this kind of thing is so demoralizing.

What a scuzzy business this is.


author: MONDay

subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
MC <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Well, here's hoping that everything goes OK MC.

Keep us posted.


author: Mysti Berry

subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
MC wrote:

I hope it all works out okay!  There's scum everywhere, sadly. One of my
mentors in L.A. got more from the WGA penalties against a producer than
he got for writing the script (a LOT more), because the producer had
changed exactly two (non-pivotal) scenes and taken the original writer's
name off. This was a film with A list actors (B at the time the film was
made).

I've heard it expressed that there are two schools of producing--those
who try to get away with whatever they can and pay for what they get
caught at, and those feel an obligation to try to be honest and
forthright most of the time.

I'm sorry you got stuck with one of the former. Looks like remuneration,
as well as freedom, requires eternal vigilance.

Play the Silent L.A. Game

Try adding a silent "in L.A." phrase (with a shrug or a nod) to the end
of sentences, such as:

Lying is just another form of communication (in L.A.)
You can die from encouragement (in L.A.)

of course, other groups are equally vulnerable:

OCD is often highly rewarded (in software)  etc. etc.
Beemer drivers deserve your spot on the highway (in the Bay Area)...

I recommend it as a venting tool, not a way to win friends or influence
people. In fact, I expect a karmic smackdown any second now...OUCH!

Mysti


author: Jacques E. Bouchard

subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
MC <[email]> wrote in news:copespaz-C9A940.18323708012005
@news.snafu.de:

Your agent dropped the ball.

jaybee


subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
In article <cs1gpf$85k$[email]>,
 Mysti Berry <[email]> wrote:

The latest word is that the producers finally agreed to talk to the
guild and and agreed that the show is under guild jurisdiction.

But... they are claiming (maybe with justification, who knows?) that the
original scripts have been heavily rewritten in the intervening two
years, and there will probably have to be a credit arbitration.

Translation: Whatever money the original writers -- including me -- were
expecting to get has just beenslashed, and it will be months -- or even
a year before we see a dime.


subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
In article <Xns95D8BE4D569ADjebouchard451yahooca@130.133.1.4>,
 "Jacques E. Bouchard" <[email]> wrote:

No he didn't. I haven't told the *whole* story.


subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
MC wrote:

Muy drag!  Much empathy!!!! 2005 was supposed to be BETTER than last
year, darn it...

Mysti


subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
MC <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

You mean your agent had no way of knowing before then that the contract
wasn't WGC?

jaybee


subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
In article <Xns95D93331B30CEjebouchard451yahooca@130.133.1.4>,
 "Jacques E. Bouchard" <[email]> wrote:

Well without wanting to rehash the whole thing in excruciating detail,
the producers -- well known in the business -- stated that the show was
under WGC jurisdiction, and the contract was a standard WGC contract.
Nothing fishy about it. In other words there was no reason to disbelieve
them.

It turned out only months afterward that although the contract was
standard, the production was not under guild jurisdiction.

But in an interesting twist of fate, now it is. And the new producers
are bound by the WGC content of the contract I signed.


subject: Re: Scuzzy Business

text:
MC <[email]> wrote in news:copespaz-
[email]:

contract
was
disbelieve

Well, having been in a similar situation where I was deceived by
appearances, and knowing full well that the writer is *not* at fault for
negligence here, I won't berate you for not taking it upon yourself to
check with the Guild to see whether the prodco was a signatory.

jaybee


author: gabriel

subject: In the beginning ...

text:
Genesis 1:1-5
	1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the
	earth.

Is this literal, or did God *not* create the heaven and the
earth? No, this is clearly literal - God created the heaven and
the earth.

	2 And the earth was without form, and void; and
	darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of
	God moved upon the face of the waters.

Was the earth *not* without form at the beginning? Was there not
darkness upon the deep? Did the Spirit of God not move upon the
face of the waters? Of course! This is again literal. It
continues to show us what God was doing.

	3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was
	light.

So did God not say "Let there be light?" Did God not create
light? Of course He did. This again is clearly literal.

	4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God
	divided the light from the darkness.

So God did not see the light? God didn't divide the light from
the darkness with the rotation of the Earth? Of course he did
these things. Again, it remains clearly literal.

	5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he
	called Night. And the evening and the morning were the
	first day.

So did God *not* call the light Day? Did He not call the darkness
night? Of course He did. Again, as before and as it continues
through the rest of the genesis record, it is clearly literal -
the only real issue is **if the reader believes God did these
things.**

For those **who don't want to believe** God did those things,
short of calling God a liar, or claiming the Bible is not the
inspired Word of God (but only the parts they want to listen to)
their only recourse is to claim it's just an allegory, which of
course is absurd - one has no reason to claim it is an allegory
except the fact that they do not believe God did what He said He
did, and/or they don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of
God. The indwelling Holy Spirit would not lead a child of God to
the "truth" that God didn't really do any of this, or that the
Bible is not really the inspired Word of God.

In short, the wrath of God abides upon those who corrupt the
glory of God, corrupt the evidence of God that is revealed by His
majestic creation of the universe, matter, energy and the myriad
of amazing life forms all created by Him in first few days of
creation. The wrath of God abides on those who deny the clear
evidence of DNA and life to instead worship the creation and
claim it all "just happened", and that we evolved over
generations once upon a time from fish.

Because of the lies told about God's amazing creation, many
people turn away from God and are still on their way to hell
because they instead believe "big bang did it" or "we evolved
from populations of fish over generations once upon a time - God
did not create us", or "nothing did it" and so on. The wrath of
God abides on those who teach such lies, who deny "the invisible
things of Him from the creation of the world" being clearly seen
- denying His eternal power and Godhead. The wrath of God abides
on those who no longer trust His Word because so many teach, even
professing Christians, that it's "just a story, and didn't really
happen." Woe unto any of us that denies all the evidence of
design in God's creation, of the global flood, and instead turns
the ears of generations of children to fables that people evolved
from fish, that "nothing did it" - that all those instructions
(DNA) that are decoded and acted upon to build organic machines,
while those instructions are copied to be used again and again,
all "just happened".

	Romans 1:18-23
	For the wrath of God is revealed from
	heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of
	men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness;
	Because that which may be known of God is manifest in
	them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible
	things of him from the creation of the world are clearly
	seen, being understood by the things that are made, even
	his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
	excuse:
	Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not
	as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
	imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
	Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And
	changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image
	made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and
	fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

God did exactly what He said He did. God creating like He said He
did is reiterated in many places in both the Old and New
Testament, even by Jesus Christ Himself.

	John 1:1-5
	In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
	and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with
	God. All things were made by him; and without him was not
	any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the
	life was the light of men. And the light shineth in
	darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

	Exodus 20:11
	For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
	and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
	wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed
	it.

	Matthew 19:3-5
	The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and
	saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his
	wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them,
Have ye not read, that he which made them at the
	beginning made them male and female, And said, For this
	cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall
	cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, asking
yourself if God would really have you believe the Bible is not
His inspired Word, or that God did not really create like He said
He did.

All to the glory of our heavenly Father of our Lord and Savior,
Jesus Christ!

In the beginning ...


author: omprem

subject: Re: In the beginning ...

text:
On Feb 14, 9:37 pm, gabriel <[email]> wrote:

Metaphorically, the Biblical creation story refers to the seven
principle chakras and the ascent of one's consciousness through them
with consequent levels of spiritual awareness developing. One 'rests'
on the seventh day because when one accesses the seventh chakra one is
spiritually enlightened and with God and there is no need to 'do'
anything more.

I'm sure that you will receive a lot of nonsense for the literal-
minded science community but ignore them they know not what they speak.


author: Pro-Humanist FREELOVER

subject: Re: In the beginning ...

text:
... of religion, evolved apes endeavored to further
their own power and imagined all sorts of things,
drawing from a bounteous well of fantasy and myths
and oft-times bloody sacrificial offerings, and even-
tually, that led them to believe in immortality only if
the 'right' myths were believed in ...

... and hence, out of this wellspring of other-worldly
seductions and threats, all manner of other-worlds
and other-worldly beings were imagined up and
perpetuated from generation to generation, among
them the myths of Genesis you, like your likeminded
co-believers which include the followers of the Jewish
and Mormon and Muslim and Roman Catholic and
Orthodox Christian religions, sought to perpetuate
in your post ...

"gabriel" <[email]> wrote...

Meanwhile, back in the real world ...

- - -
  http://prohuman.net/freelover.htm
- - -

Excerpt:

...

And in the infinity of that which has always been
and will always be ... (Nature 1:0)

there was, is, and will always be the natural ...
(Nature 1:1)

and in the natural is the all and the nothing, the
good and the bad, the future and the past ...
(Nature 1:2)

and as is natural, a quantum event occurred in
such time and place as matched to the forever
nature of the natural ...
(Nature 1:3)

and in that a particular aggregate of events tran-
spired which eventually became of interest to
a sentient species ...
(Nature 1:4)

yes, an expansion of time and space did take
place in a finite part of an infinite cosmos ...
(Nature 1:5)

yes, a track was laid by which a curious form
of matter could track this expansion back to the
very fraction of a second from which this expan-
sion took place ...
(Nature 1:6)

and lo, over the expansion of time and space,
such monumental events transpired as would
unveil an enormous and natural set of occur-
rences, leading to vast numbers of stars, and
solar systems, and life forms, but as is the
destiny of such natural matters ...
(Nature 1:7)

a form of matter responsive to stimuli in an alto-
gether natural part of a natural expanding world,
did pursue and endeavor to understand that which
was the natural origin of its being ...
(Nature 1:8)

and lo, as an evolved form of matter, it naturally
struggled to survive, to perpetuate its existence, to
become a sustaining being ...
(Nature 1:9)

and over a period which would come to be known
by this form of matter as time ...
(Nature 1:10)

a form of matter with the ability to make sounds
and form symbols and communicate ideas, did issue
forth proclamations and claims by which ...
(Nature 1:11)

this form of matter did journey into the unknown
and venture guesses, myths, and fantasies about its
natural world until ...
(Nature 1:12)

a series of postulations, tests, and experiments did
issue forth a profound set of reproducible, testable,
and verifiable phenomena by which this form of
matter ...
(Nature 1:13)

could ascertain facts and pronunciations about the
natural evolution of its form and predecessors and
origins back to the expansion and forward to points
which ...
(Nature 1:14)

gave this form of matter a level of understanding
about its place in the expanding milieu that made
it ...
(Nature 1:15)

one with its natural world, a totality of being and
meaning that revealed its true place in a natural
world of wonder ...
(Nature 1:16)

far exceeding the myths and ignorance of this
evolved form of matter's pre-scientific / pre-
natural postulations ...
(Nature 1:17)

and lo, it was good, this evolved matter's ability
to look out and know its natural world ...
(Nature 1:18)

nevertheless, this natural being found that existence
was challenging, competition for scarce resources
and for propagation of ideas was ongoing, denial
of the positive aspects of living in a natural world
persisted, and many amongst its midst sought to
perpetuate the ancient myths/fears, while others
sought harm and ill will towards their fellow beings ...
(Nature 1:19)

yet, this natural being discovered that by under-
standing its natural world, by taking total and
absolute responsibility for improving its plight on
the planet, by nurturing and loving and learning
and exploring, by reaching for the stars with hope
and search for the true meaning of a natural
existence in a natural world ...
(Nature 1:20)

all that was good and decent and honorable and
worthwhile and loving and kind and gentle and
responsible and giving and nurturing could issue
forth from this natural being, knowing that its
destiny was to learn all it could and to be all it
could be in a natural world, at this place, at this
time ...
(Nature 1:21)
- - -

ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½ - ï¿½

~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
  http://prohuman.net
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~


subject: Re: In the beginning ...

text:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:11:57 -0600, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
<[email]> wrote:

Please show a single observation or repeatable test case for
verification showing populations of apes evolving over
generations into people.


subject: Re: In the beginning ... (reply 1 of 3)

text:
"gabriel" <[email]> wrote ...

- - - begin reply 1 of 3 - - -

Surely you're familiar with the massive evidence sup-
porting evolution, and the vast amount of time over
which the particular space-time continuum we find
ourselve in has evolved, and the vast amount of time
the planet we find ourselves on has evolved, and the
vast amount of time that life has been evolving on this
particular planet, and the vast amount of time over
which all the living predecessors of homo sapiens
evolved, and the vast amount of time over which
hominids which eventually evolved into homo sapiens
evolved, some of which I'll detail below and in the
following two replies (see the source articles, videos,
graphics, & photos for much more comprehensive
details) ...

History/Origins/Future of Energy,
Matter, Space, Time, and Life (1 of 7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


subject: Re: In the beginning ... (reply 2 of 3)

text:
- - - begin reply 2 of 3 - - -

~542 million to ~488 million ....

Cambrian Period
542 Million to 488 Million Years Ago
  http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/cambrian.html
"The Cambrian period, part of the Paleozoic era,
produced the most intense burst of evolution ever
known. The Cambrian Explosion saw an incredible
diversity of life emerge, including many major animal
groups alive today. Among them were the chordates,
to which vertebrates (animals with backbones) such
as humans belong.

First trilobites, forams, brachiopods, nautiloids, clams,
snails, crustaceans, crinoids, gastropods, corals, protozoans.
  http://prohuman.net/pix/cambrian.JPG

...

The Cambrian Explosion
  http://www.pbs.org/kcet/shapeoflife/episodes/explosion.html
"... during a 10 to 20 million year stretch of time,
beginning about 540 million years ago, life evolved
at an explosive rate. Scientists call the period the
'Cambrian Explosion'. ... by the end of the Cambrian
explosion, all of the eight major animals body plans
in existence today, along with 27 minor ones, had
emerged. ..."

Biological Big Bang
  http://www.pbs.org/kcet/shapeoflife/episodes/explo_explo1.html
"... Before the Cambrian, genes were only able to
control the production of simple animals, such as
sponges and jellies. During the Explosion, assem-
blages of animal genes may have evolved sufficiently
to direct the production of more complex groups
of creatures -- animals with heads, brains, arms
and legs.

...

Ordovician Period
488 Million to 443 Million Years Ago
  http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/ordovician.html
"... a rich variety of marine life flourished in the vast seas
and the first primitive plants began to appear on land,
before the second largest mass extinction of all time
ended the period.

First starfish, sea urchins, blastoids, eurypterids, bryozoa,
scaphopods, jawless fish, echinoids.
  http://prohuman.net/pix/ordivician.JPG

...

Silurian Period
443 Million to 416 Million Years Ago
  http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/silurian.html
"... animals and plants finally emerge on land. ... The growth
of corals and other marine organisms was stoked by oceans
teeming with tiny planktonic creatures. Waiting at the other
end of the food chain were the fearsome eurypterids, or sea
scorpions. Some species grew to more than six feet ... in length
and are considered the largest arthropods ever to have lived.

  http://prohuman.net/pix/silurian.JPG
First land plants, ferns, sharks, boney fish, scorpions (an eurypterid,
a prehistoric sea scorpion, pictured above)

...

Devonian Period
416 Million to 359 Million Years Ago
  http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/devonian.html
"...  the planet was changing its appearance. The great
supercontinent of Gondwana was headed steadily north-
ward, away from the South Pole, and a second super-
continent began to form that straddled the Equator.
Known as Euramerica, or Laurussia, it was created by
the coming together of parts of North America, northern
Europe, Russia, and Greenland.

...

  http://prohuman.net/pix/devonian.JPG
First insects, ammonites, placoderms, tetrapods,(early tetrapods
Acanthostega [foreground] & Ichthyostega, pictured above)

...

- - -
Details Of Evolutionary Transition


subject: Re: In the beginning ... (reply 3 of 3)

text:
- - - begin reply 3 of 3 - - -

~18 million ....

Proconsul africanus (woodland ape) appears to be
the best candidate yet discovered to be the origin
point (distant ancestor) from which all modern
species of apes and all hominids--human beings
included--evolved.

...

13 million ....

Asian great apes, Orangutans, split from African
great ape lineage.

Closest yet to Ancestor of all Great Apes
  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041123211616.htm
"...  Pierolapithecus catalaunicus, or its close relative,
may have been the last common ancestor to all living
great apes, including humans ... Like other great apes,
Pierolapithecus had a stiff lower spine and other spe-
cial adaptations for climbing. These features, plus the
fossil's age of about 13 million years, suggest that this
species was probably close to the last great ape an-
cestor.

... The great apes, which now include orangutans,
chimpanzees, gorillas and humans, are thought to
have diverged from the lesser apes, a group that
contains modern gibbons and siamangs, about 11
to 16 million years ago ..."
  http://prohuman.net/pix/pierolapithecus.JPG

...

~12 million ....

Dryopithecus ("tree ape") may have begun the
evolutionary line that developed into modern apes
and Homo sapiens; Sivapethecus appears, an ape
between life in the trees and life on the ground,
chimpanzee-like feet, orangutan-like face;
Ramapithecus ape appears, a little smaller in
stature than Sivapethecus.

New Hominid 12 Million Years Old Found In Spain,
with 'Modern' Facial Features
  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090602083729.htm
"... Researchers have discovered a fossilized face and
jaw from a previously unknown hominoid primate genus
in Spain dating to the Middle Miocene era, roughly 12
million years ago. Nicknamed "Lluc," the male bears a
strikingly "modern" facial appearance with a flat face,
rather than a protruding one. The finding sheds important
new light on the evolutionary development of hominids,
including orangutans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas
and humans.

... the new genus and species, dubbed Anoiapithecus
brevirostris. The scientific name is derived from the
region where the fossil was found (l'Anoia) and also
from its 'modern' facial morphology, characterized by
a very short face. ..."
  http://prohuman.net/pix/brevirostris.JPG

~8 million ....

Lineage leading to modern gorillas branched away
from remaining African ape species, the combined
chimpanzee and human line.

Reference to Origins of Humankind, as of 2001
(note-a great deal of information is contained in
this page, and some of the referenced dates are
no longer applicable, due to ongoing discoveries
which are one of the greatest advantages of the
scientific method):
  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/index.html

~7 million ....

A fall in sea level cuts off the Mediterranean from
the Atlantic Ocean - over the next 2 million years,
the Mediterranean repeatedly reflooded and dried
out; salt deposits of up to 6,500 feet have been left
in some places.

Human Evolution
  http://prohuman.net/pix/humanevolution.JPG

...

Map of Some of the Pivotal Human Evolution Discoveries
  http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/covers/1101010723/images/africamap.jpg

A Walk Through Human Evolution
  http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/covers/1101010723/images/apes_timeline1.gif

Walk Like a Man
  http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010723/graphic.html

...

2.6 Million Years Ago to the Present
  http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/prehistoric-world/quaternary.html
"Climate change and the developments it spurs carry the narrative
of the Quaternary, the most recent 2.6 million years of Earth's history.
Glaciers advance from the Poles and then retreat, carving and molding
the land with each pulse. Sea levels fall and rise with each period of
freezing and thawing. Some mammals get massive, grow furry coats,
and then disappear. Humans evolve to their modern form, traipse
around the globe, and make a mark on just about every Earth system,
including the climate.

...

History/Origins/Future of Energy,
Matter, Space, Time, and Life (6 of 7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


subject: Re: In the beginning ... (reply 1 of 3)

text:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:05:05 -0600, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
<[email]> wrote:

There's no such evidence - just beliefs of what people want dead
bones, fossils and so on to mean to them and everyone else. Huge
difference.

All you've provided are a bunch of beliefs on what things mean to
you, and what you want them to mean to everyone else, none of
those belief being observable (for obvious reasons), and also not
able to be shown in repeatable test cases for others to verify -
one can only believe in it. Not science.

Please show an observation or test case of populations of [apes]
evolving over generations eventually into animals that are
clearly no longer [apes] at all. You can replace [apes] with any
animal known to man.

See we know Speciation (populations of [flies] possibly evolving
over generations into a slightly different species of [flies],
*but still flies*) is science because it's observable and can be
shown in repeatable test cases for other scientists to verify.
Again, that's science.

Contrast this with fish to man evolution, which can never be
shown: that populations of [flies] could evolve over generations
into animals that are clearly no longer [flies] at all. Just like
hippos, giraffes, eagles and people are clearly no longer fish at
all, but evolutionism has claims all those things evolved from
populations of fish once upon a time.

We can easily provide you with a ton of evidence on why we
believe God exists. But of course you'd delete them and say
"please provide a single observation or test case showing God
creating anything" - bingo. Evolutionism, creation by God,
intelligent design, any origin belief: cannot qualify as science
because it's not observable and cannot be shown happening in any
repeatable test cases for other scientists to verify, no matter
how many reasons any of us supply on why we believe it. It's that
simple.


subject: Re: In the beginning ... (reply 1 of 2)

text:
"gabriel" <[email]> wrote...

- - - begin reply 1 of 2 - - -

Apparently, you're blind when it comes to science.
and evolution. That's unfortunate. Some of your
co-believers have great respect for evolution and
science, and for the evidence which profoundly
and exhaustively supports evolution as reality.

- - -

Evolution? 'It's not only a theory. It is a historical
fact, evident and provable.' (1 of 2)
(Top Posts - Science - 012509)
  http://prohuman.net/science/evolution_evident_provable.htm

- - -
January 23, 2009
  http://tinyurl.com/evolution-evident-provable
- - -

Excerpt:

...

His [David Attenborough's] next documentary for
BBC1, Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life, trans-
mitting on February 1, will look at one of the over-
arching themes of his career: evolution.

Darwin showed how all life is related. Attenborough
feels that people need reminding that his discoveries
aren't just a matter of opinion.

"The proof comes from fossils, geographical distri-
bution, genetics," he says. "Since Darwin propounded
[his theory] we have dealt with every one of the objec-
tions there have been. That's what this programme is
about: showing the evidence. What really gets me
down is when people say, 'It's only a theory that we
are related to apes.' It's not only a theory. It is a his-
torical fact, evident and provable."

...

- - - end excerpt - - -

Follow-ups: Links/excerpts to some helful information
regarding evolution's past/present/future, science, and
how the scientific method is a superior methodology
when it comes to open-minded search for verity:

- - -
Frequently Asked Questions About Evolution
  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/index.html
- - -

- - -
340 aspects of the christian bible that don't
jive with science and history, the first 58 of
which are in Genesis
  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html
- - -

... one species of animal you may be
interested in, that being homo sapiens,
here's a fascinating book regarding evolu-
tion in the past 10,000 years.

- - -
The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civil-
ization Accelerated Human Evolution
  http://tinyurl.com/civilization-spedup-humanevolu
- - -

Excerpt:

Resistance to malaria. Blue eyes. Lactose
tolerance. What do all of these traits have
in common? Every one of them has emerged
in the last 10,000 years.

Scientists have long believed that the "great
leap forward" that occurred some 40,000 to
50,000 years ago in Europe marked end of
significant biological evolution in humans.

In this stunningly original account of our
evolutionary history, top scholars Gregory
Cochran and Henry Harpending reject this
conventional wisdom and reveal that the
human species has undergone a storm of
genetic change much more recently.

Human evolution in fact accelerated after
civilization arose, they contend, and these
ongoing changes have played a pivotal role
in human history.

They argue that biology explains the expan-
sion of the Indo-Europeans, the European
conquest of the Americas, and European
Jews' rise to intellectual prominence.

In each of these cases, the key was recent
genetic change: adult milk tolerance in the
early Indo-Europeans that allowed for a
new way of life, increased disease resist-
ance among the Europeans settling Amer-
ica, and new versions of neurological genes
among European Jews.

Ranging across subjects as diverse as human
domestication, Neanderthal hybridization,
and IQ tests, Cochran and Harpending's anal-
ysis demonstrates convincingly that human
genetics have changed and can continue to
change much more rapidly than scientists
have previously believed.

A provocative and fascinating new look at
human evolution that turns conventional wis-
dom on its head, The 10,000 Year Explosion
reveals the ongoing interplay between culture
and biology in the making of the human race.

- - - end excerpt - - -

- - -
Details Of Evolutionary Transition From
Fish To Land Animals Revealed
  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081015144123.htm
- - -

[...]

Microraptor
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microraptor
Excerpt: Like Archaeopteryx, Microraptor provides
important evidence about the evolutionary relationship
between birds and dinosaurs.

Archaeopteryx
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx
Excerpt: Archaeopteryx plays an important role not
only in the study of the origin of birds but in the study
of dinosaurs. The first complete specimen of Archaeop-
teryx was announced in 1861, only two years after
Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species,
and it became a key piece of evidence in the debate
over evolution. Over the years, nine more fossils of
Archaeopteryx have surfaced.

Bird evolution
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_evolution
Excerpt: There is significant evidence that birds evolved
from theropod dinosaurs, specifically, that birds are
members of Maniraptora, a group of theropods which
includes dromaeosaurs and oviraptorids, among others.
As more non-avian theropods that are closely related to
birds are discovered, the formerly clear distinction be-
tween non-birds and birds becomes less so. Recent dis-
coveries in northeast China (Liaoning Province), dem-
onstrating that many small theropod dinosaurs had fea-
thers, contribute to this ambiguity.

Origin of birds
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_birds
Excerpt: The origin of birds has been a contentious topic
within evolutionary biology for many years, but more
recently a scientific consensus has emerged which holds
that birds are a group of theropod dinosaurs that evolved
during the Mesozoic Era.

- - -

- - -
Super-Predators: Humans Force Rapid Evolution
of Animals

By Robert Roy Britt, Editorial Director

posted: 12 January 2009
  http://www.livescience.com/animals/090112-super-predators.html
- - -

Excerpts:

Acting as super-predators, humans are forcing changes
to body size and reproductive abilities in some species
300 percent faster than would occur naturally, a new
study finds.

Hunting and fishing by individual sportsmen as well
as large-scale commercial fishing are also outpacing
other human influences, such as pollution, in effects
on the animal kingdom.

...

- - - end excerpt - - -

Human evolution
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Timeline of human evolution
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution

Dawn of Man: The Story of Human
Evolution, by Robin McKie
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789462621
"Dawn of Man, which accompanies a BBC television
series, tells the story of human evolution, warts and
all, over the last 4 million years or so. From a shared
ancestor with the higher apes, an upright, walking
ape-human in Africa, McKie takes our story through
the Ice Age to domination by modern humans."

The Complete World of Human Evolution
  http://www.amazon.com/Complete-World-Human-Evolution/dp/0500051321
"Human domination of the earth is now so complete
that it is easy to forget how recently our role in the
history of the planet began: the earliest apes evolved
around twenty million years ago, yet Homo sapiens
has existed for a mere 150,000 years. In the inter-
vening period, many species of early ape and human
have lived and died out, leaving behind the fossilized
remains that have helped to make the detailed picture
of our evolution revealed here."

The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species
of Extinct Humans
  http://tinyurl.com/22humanspeciesextinct
"... Paleontological and anatomical data for each species
were combined with anthropological and climatological
research to produce this volume, covering 22 species
and 7 million years. ... As paleoanthropologist Ian Tatter-
sall points out in his introduction to this marvelous new
book on our ancestors, we Homo sapiens find ourselves
in the unusual situation of being alone on the planet as
the sole surviving hominid. For most of the history of the
hominid lineage, the world was home to coexisting pre-
humans and humans. ..."

"human evolution"
  http://tinyurl.com/humanevolutionPHF

O - r - i - g - i - n - s / E - v - o - l - u - t - i - o - n
(Top Posts - Science - 081703)
  http://prohuman.net/science/origins_evolution.htm

- - -

[follow-up/reply to an evolution skeptic and a fan of
ancient religions which imagine a particular god as
a creator / controller regarding naturalistic matters]

The evidence for evolution is strong. The
evidence for God is non-existent.

You fail to understand evolution. A desire
to live forever (and the fear of not continuing
to live when you die) seems to be the driving
force behind your God theory. An obvious
glaring weakness in your God theory is the
overwhelming lack of evidence that your
God (or any God, for that matter) actually
exists outside of human imagination.

Put another way, imagining a God exists
does not a God create, it simply reveals
the ability of creatures to pass down myths
and act as if they reflect reality when, point
in fact, they reflect nothing more than human
imagination -and- the way in which human
imagination (especially when the seduction
of pleasant immortality -and- the threats of
eternal death or eternal torment are tied to
belief in a supposedly all-powerful being)
can be passed down from parents and others
to the vulnerable and receptive minds of chil-
dren.

Many other things are passed down, but none
more imaginary than magic beings supposedly
doing magic things and formalizing that belief
in a sanctioned protected manner to such a
degree that it has become deeply entrenched
(in many contradictory forms) in most human
cultures around the world.

- - -
Primate Culture Is Just A Stone's Throw
Away From Human Evolution, Study Finds
  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090112110058.htm
- - -

Excerpt:

ScienceDaily (Jan. 15, 2009) - For 30 years,
scientists have been studying stone-handling
behavior in several troops of Japanese macaques
to catch a unique glimpse of primate culture.
By watching these monkeys acquire and main-
tain behavioral traditions from generation to
generation, the scientists have gained insight
into the cultural evolution of humans.

...

- - - end excerpt - - -

[...]

- - -
Evolution: 24 myths and misconceptions
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmythsnmisconceptions
- - -

Excerpts:

If you think you understand it, you don't
know nearly enough about it

...

Darwin presented compelling evidence for
evolution in On the Origin and, since his
time, the case has become overwhelming.
Countless fossil discoveries allow us to
trace the evolution of today's organisms
from earlier forms.

DNA sequencing has confirmed beyond
any doubt that all living creatures share
a common origin.

Innumerable examples of evolution in
action can be seen all around us, from the
pollution-matching peppered moth to fast-
changing viruses such as HIV and H5N1
bird flu.

Evolution is as firmly established a scien-
tific fact as the roundness of the Earth.

And yet despite an ever-growing mountain
of evidence, most people around the world
are not taught the truth about evolution, if
they are taught about it at all. Even in the
UK, the birthplace of Darwin with an edu-
cated and increasingly secular population,
one recent poll suggests less than half the
population accepts evolution.

For those who have never had the oppor-
tunity to find out about biology or science,
claims made by those who believe in super-
natural alternatives to evolutionary theory
can appear convincing. Meanwhile, even
among those who accept evolution, mis-
conceptions abound.

Most of us are happy to admit that we do
not understand, say, string theory in physics,
yet we are all convinced we understand evo-
lution. In fact, as biologists are discovering,
its consequences can be stranger than we
ever imagined. Evolution must be the best-
known yet worst-understood of all scienti-
fic theories.

So here is New Scientist's guide to some of
the most common myths and misconceptions
about evolution.

Shared misconceptions:

Everything is an adaptation produced by natural
selection
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13615

Natural selection is the only means of evolution
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13616

Natural selection leads to ever-greater complexity
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13617

Evolution produces creatures perfectly adapted to their environment
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13640

Evolution always promotes the survival of species
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13687

It doesn't matter if people do not understand evolution
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13621

"Survival of the fittest" justifies "everyone for themselves"
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13671

Evolution is limitlessly creative
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13679

Evolution cannot explain traits such as homosexuality
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13674

Creationism provides a coherent alternative to evolution
  http://tinyurl.com/evolutionmyths13688

Creationist myths:

Evolution must be wrong because the Bible is inerrant
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13695

Accepting evolution undermines morality
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13696

Evolutionary theory leads to racism and genocide
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13689

Religion and evolution are incompatible
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13722

Half a wing is no use to anyone
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13683

Evolutionary science is not predictive
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13677

Evolution cannot be disproved so is not science
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13675

Evolution is just so unlikely to produce complex life forms
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13694

Evolution is an entirely random process
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13698

Mutations can only destroy information, not create it
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13673

Darwin is the ultimate authority on evolution
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13633

The bacterial flagellum is irreducibly complex
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13663

Yet more creationist misconceptions
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13717

Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics
  http://tinyurl.com/creationistmyths13720

- - -

Index to Creationist Claims
  http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

A sample (excerpt) that applies to one of the
topics discussed in this thread yesterday (see
the full index for further details on other claims
and refutations):

Claim CB141:
  http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB141.html

DNA and chromosome counts differ widely
between different organisms. This dissimilarity
contradicts the similarity we expect from com-
mon descent. Chromosome counts should be
either the same because the different forms of
life descended from a common ancestor ... or
more complex as organisms get more complex
 ...

Neither is the case. For example, humans have
46 chromosomes, some ferns have 512, and
some gulls have 12.

...

Response:

   1. Chromosome counts are poor indications of
similarity; they can vary widely within a single
genus or even a single species. The plant genus
Clarkia, for example, has species with chromo-
some counts of n = 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, 17, 18,
and 26 (Lewis 1993). Chromosome counts in the
house mouse species (Mus domesticus) range from
2n = 22 to 40 (Nachman et al. 1994).

      Chromosomes can split or join with little effect
on the genes themselves. One human chromosome,
for example, is very similar to two chimpanzee
chromosomes laid end to end; it likely formed from
the joining of two chromosomes (Yunis and Prakash
1982). Because the genes can still align, a change in
chromosome number does not prevent reproduction.

Chromosome counts can also change through poly-
ploidy, where the entire genome is duplicated. Poly-
ploidy, in fact, is a common mechanism of speciation
in plants.

- - -

- - -

Recent articles evidential in the evolution of
life:

- - -
February 4, 2009

Oldest fossil evidence for animals found
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29017633/
- - -

Excerpts:

The oldest fossilized evidence of animals has
been unearthed in Oman and reveals that tiny
sea sponges were abundant 635 million years
ago, long before most of the planet's other
major animal groups evolved, according to
a new analysis.

This early life hardly looked like us, but some
of the so-called demosponges can be sizable
today. Demosponges still make up 90 percent
of all sponges on Earth and 100 percent of Earth's
largest sponges, including barrel sponges, which
can be larger than an old-style phone booth.

...

Now that there is evidence of animals going back
to 635 million years ago, it is worth asking if future
research will find evidence of animal fossils going
back even further. Love doubts the date will get
much earlier than a glaciation event called the Stur-
tian, 720 million years ago, which caused big
changes in ocean chemistry.

- - - end excerpts - - -

- - -
February 4, 2009

Ancient snake was as long as a bus

Reptile slithered about South America's
rainforests 60 million years ago
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29014818/
- - -

Excerpts:

A colossal snake about the length of a school
bus slithered about South America's rainforests
some 60 million years ago, according to an
analysis of the skeletal remains of what is now
considered the largest snake ever identified.

"It's the biggest snake the world has ever known."
 ... "The snake's body was so wide that if it were
moving down the hall and decided to come into
my office to eat me, it would literally have to
squeeze through the door."

Fossils of the extinct snake species, now called
Titanoboa cerrejonensis, were discovered in the
Cerrejon Coal Mine in northern Colombia.


author: Chester Mccarter

subject: Re: ITrader Upgrade v.1.1

text:
Michael W. Baker wrote:

I use it at home just wish there was a windows 3.1 version for at work.
never a problem to speak of.


author: Schlockhack

subject: Re: Black Like Robert Downey Jr !

text:
I just saw a picture of Barack Obama, and I realized that if you give
him a pencil-thin moustache, he looks kind of like John Waters.


author: Wordsmith

subject: Re: Black Like Robert Downey Jr !

text:
On Mar 8, 6:59ï¿½pm, Schlockhack <[email]> wrote:

Yeah, but Obama's not that emaciated.

W : )


author: Steven J. Weller

subject: Re: Black Like Robert Downey Jr !

text:
On Mar 9, 2:15ï¿½pm, Wordsmith <[email]> wrote:

I actually kind of liked a bit on one of the entertainment shows (ET,
mebbe) where they'd asked Obama who he'd like to play him in the
movie.  He came up with Will Smith, which seemed a little obvious -
handsome, ripped, most popular movie star in the universe, etc - until
he explained why:

They have the same jug-handle ears.


author: nathan pye

subject: Pre-grant letter received

text:
Dear all,

I received my pre-grant letter on Saturday August 09, and I would just
like to say a big thanks for all the help and guidance that
contributors to this group have given me.

It looked a little hairy at times, and I just hope that the suggested
enhancements in lifestyle etc will outweigh the years of life I've
lost through the stress of the application process!

Best wishes and good luck,

Nathan.


author: Karl&Sue

subject: Re: Pre-grant letter received

text:
Well done, good luck.

nathan pye wrote in message
<[email]>...


subject: Re: Pre-grant letter received

text:
Good luck ....... we got our PR yesterday - fantastic feeling isnt it.
Where are you heading?

mich


author: Mack

subject: Re: Pre-grant letter received

text:
Congrats!!! Its ur time!!!

SentApril2002 <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: [redacted]

subject: Designer Furniture at Wholesale Prices

text:
DESIGNER FURNITURE AT WHOLESALE PRICES
            --------------------------------------

Designer furniture and accessories at wholesale prices from
most prominent international manufacturers - all at prices
better than you can get on your own.

Choose your items - whether complete suites or just a single piece.
E-mail the manufacturer, model number and name, finish, color,
dimensions and fabrics and we'll fax you the best prices you can
get ANYWHERE!

Fast!  Electronically!

18 years experience.  Try us and see.  E-mail us today.

                    BSF Designer's Warehouse
		  Professional Buyers Service

                  E-mail: [email]

Partial List of Manufacturers Offered by Designer's Warehouse:

BERNHARDT			MURRAY'S IRON WORKS
THOMASVILLE			INTERNATIONAL IRON WORKS
LANE				TROY WESNIDGE
HICKORY CHAIR			CHAPMAN
KNOLL				DESIGN INSTITUTE AMERICA
HERMAN MILLER			TRADITIONAL IMPORTS
HICKORY BUSINESS FURNITURE	F. SCHUMACHER & CO.
HAMPTON LANE			ROBERT ALLEN TEXTILES
METROPOLITAN FURNITURE		KRAVET FABRICS
DEVIN				P. KAUFMAN
DHONGIA				J. ROBERT SCOTT

          (partial listing - hundreds more!)


author: Tasso Triantaphyllis

subject: Designer Furniture at Wholesale Prices

text:
How do we contact you for prices?

----
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Ye Olde Bailey BBS Zyxel 713-520-1569(V.32bis) USR 713-520-9566(V.34/FC)|
|   Houston,Texas             yob.com           Home of alt.cosuard      |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+


author: AdenOne

subject: Will the 787's landing gear scale with weight to enable a 77W replacement?

text:
Will the 787's gear be able to cope with an increase in weight to allow
a replacement for the 777-300\ER? I would think a 787-11 or 787-10\ER
would have a max takeoff in excess of 650,000 lbs. If you extrapolate
on todays most heavily loaded gear (77W at 64,583 lbs per wheel or A346
at 69,833 lbs\wheel) you can see that the 8-wheel 787 gear will be
insufficient for anything over about 560,000 lbs MTOW. The logical
thing would be to replace the two 4-wheel bogies with two 6-wheel ones
as on the 777.


author: Tom Sanderson

subject: Re: Will the 787's landing gear scale with weight to enable a 77W replacement?

text:
"AdenOne" <[email]> wrote:

No.

The gear is the least of your problems though...the 777 300ER has a 19' 3"
interior diameeter and is 242' 4" long.  A 787-9 is 18' 10" diameter and
206' long....there isn't enough stretch room in there to get up to the size
of a 777-300ER (you've have to stretch a 787 to 248' to hit the same
floorspace).

Where are you going to put the extra 4 wheels?  Wheel wells are not exactly
roomy places.

Tom.


text:
It would be much easier to extend the wheel wells longitudinally by a
meter or two rather than add an extra 4-wheel center bogie as on the
A345\A346. Perhaps the wheel well already takes this into account for
the future? Boeing must have a trick up its sleeve, because if they
want to get above 560,000lbs MTOW they have to have a plan. Another
point is that in order to use large-diameter engines such as GE90 style
3m+ fans, the ground clearance needed will be easier to achieve with a
two-post main gear arrangement with each post longer than if a 3-post
arrangement was used.

As for the cabin, the 787 can seat Y class at 9-abreast in reasonable
comfort, and while I do think a 77W replacement will be rather long,
possibly longer than the 77W, I don't think it will be to much of a
problem, as Boeing would not have indicated a B787-10 if they new it
wasn't feasible. Although granted the capacity might be a bit less than
the current 77W.


text:
I didn't mean adding an extra post, this would be much heavier than two
6-wheel bogies rather than 3 4-wheel ones.

I didn't mean an extra bogie, I meant maybe the wheel well is already
able to accommodate a 6-wheel 777-style bogie. It would be as simple as
having an extra meter or so on each end to fit the 6-wheel bogie, which
is only about 33% longer than the 4-wheel one.

Larger tires will mean the wheel well has to be enlarged in several
directions, not just in length. And the weight distribution issues for
airport pavement will be difficult, to say the least... Remember I said
that it would be easier not having an extra bogie, but rather
lengthening the existing one to 6-wheels.

Ok but again, the B777 is taller than the A340, because two bogies
folding inwards can be longer than if the centerline must have another
bogie well also, as on the A340. As for thrust, ime quite sure that we
will see the 787 design grow to require at least 90,000 lbs thrust once
we get to 787-9, 10, 11 or ER versions. As it is the GenX fan is not
much smaller than current GE90-92B fan.

A340-600? The 787 can seat 3-3-3 in ok comfort, the A340 cant. So at
3-3-3, the 787-11 might only be 73-75 meters. Any ideas?


text:
"AdenOne" <[email]> wrote:

I'm not sure about that.  Adding a center post means redesigning the keel
beam and adding supporting structure to the fuselage to take the load off
the center post.

Making the wheel well longer means redesigning the keel beam anyway (longer
wheel well cutout), plus strengthening the fuselage crown, existing landing
gear beam and wing spar, and redesigning the aft cargo hold.

I strongly doubt it.  I'm not aware of any Boeing aircraft with the cability
for an extra bogey designed in from the get-go, and given the fast design
timeline and weight issues, I doubt they're planning out that far into the
future right now.

The plan may just be a strengthened gear, possibly with larger tires, rather
than an extra bogey.  There's engineering challenges each way, of course,
but that strikes me as easier to work with.

I doubt we'll ever see those engines on the 787.  For one thing, it's
probably not necessary, as the 787 will never need that much thrust.  For
another, making the landing gear taller is almost harder than making giving
it more wheels...there's nowhere for the extra length to go right now.  You
could so something with automatically retracting the oleo after takeoff and
before stowage, but I can see a lot of headaches with that too.

A 777-300 has to be very careful on rotation not to whack the tail.  A 787
of equivalent capacity would be even longer with less ground clearance...I
think you'd have major rotation and/or tail strike issues.

Agreed, but I suspect a 787-10 will be close, but not all the way up to, a
777-200.  777-300 is, I suspect, out of range.

Tom.


text:
"AdenOne" <[email]> wrote:

Gotcha, my bad.  You mean adding an axel to each existing bogie, right?

I dug around to find the ground clearance of an A340 but didn't find
anything.  For a 777 it's 9'2" minimum.  Two bogies folding inwards can be
longer if there's no center gear, but they don't have to be.  It also
depends how far outboard you put the pivot point.

90,000 lbs thrust is a MGTOW of about ~650,000 lbs.  That's more than
100,000 lbs more than the 787-9.  I'm skeptical that there's that much room
for growth in the airframe.

True, but with fan diameter it's either too big or fine...there's no middle
ground.  You can get as big as you want, until you're too close to the
ground.

An A340-600 is 247'1" long and has a very low rotation angle.  A 777-300 is
242'4", and it has to hike the landing gear up to make sure the tail clears
on takeoff.

At 3-3-3, the 787 doesn't have the same cabin space (per passenger) as a
777.  On short hops that isn't a big deal, but for the 12+ hour stuff where
the long legs of the 777 and 787 really give you an edge, passenger space is
crucial.  The bigger windows might be enough of a psychological offset
though...

Tom.


author: Dr. Jai Maharaj

subject: GUN NUTS HIT - REMINGTON ARMS TO SHUT DOWN

text:
Remington Arms plant to be shut down for a month

By Chick Perry, Telegram Staff Writer
The Herkimer Evening Telegram
Saturday, November 1, 2003

ILION - Employees at the Remington Arms Company plant in
Ilion were informed in a letter Thursday from Plant
Manager Paul Cahan that the plant will be shut down for
the month of December and on Jan. 2.

The letter distributed to all of the company's
approiximately 940 employees stated:

"Due to the weak economy, Remington sales are down for
the year 2003. As a result, it is necessary to make an
adjustment to our production schedule. After considering
various alternatives, we have decided to shut down the
plant for the entire month of December and also Friday,
Jan. 2."

The letter goes on to say employees will have an
opportunity to file for unemployment benefits through the
state Department of Labor and that arrangements were
being made to have state representatives visit the plant
to explain the unemployment benefits process. Employees
with vacation time remaining in December will be paid
their vacation pay in one check, the first week of
December.

"Although this is a difficult situation for many of you,
it should be noted that Remington has done better than
many other companies during the recession. The company
expects that sales will pick up again next year as the
economy improves," Cahan stated.

Calls made to the Remington Arms plant Thursday evening
and Friday morning were not returned prior to deadline.

http://www.herkimertelegram.com/articles/2003/10/31/news/news02.txt

Posted on Saturday, November 1, 2003 by archy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
End of forwarded message

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti

WHO IS GUN NUT ROBERT FRENCHU aka DR JOSE MARIACHI aka MONGOLIAN BOB?

According to the published public records:

Frenchu, Bob
1340 Riker
Salinas, CA 93901
USA

[email]
[email]
[email]
[email]

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:

Frenchu, Bob  (VRWJPYYQLI)  [email]
1340 Riker
Salinas, CA  93901
USA
Telephone - 408-422-2272

 Record last updated on 12-Nov-2001.
 Record expires on 12-Jun-2003.
 Record created on 13-Jun-1998.
 Database last updated on 7-Jan-2002 02:35:00 EST.

 Domain servers in listed order:

 R2D2.ASDF456.COM               209.25.161.252
 C3PO.ASDF456.COM               216.65.98.189

 - - - - - - - - -

Fenchu sends e-mail from  'mail.pyramid.net' -- contact information:

Registrant:
Moustrak Inc. (PYRAMID2-DOM)
   503 N. Division St.
   Suite 2
   Carson City, NV 89703
   USA

   Domain Name: PYRAMID.NET

   Administrative Contact:
      McDermand, Bob  (BM1375)  [email]
      Pyramid.Net
      503 N. Division St., Suite 2
      Carson City, NV 89703
      (775) 884-3202 (FAX) (775) 888-6022
   Technical Contact:
      Reinhardt, Randy E  (RER11)  [email]
      Pyramid.Net
      695 E. Patriot Blvd. #43
      Reno, NV 89511
      775-851-6114 (FAX) 775-851-6115
   Billing Contact:
      Mills, Tiffany  (TM2489)  [email]
      Pyramid.Net
      503 N Division Street, Ste 2
      Carson City, NV 89703-4104
      702-884-3202 (FAX) 702-888-6022

 - - - - - - - - -

ROBER FRENCHU CLAIMS TO BE IN CARSON CITY, NEVADA

"Whatever hopes I had had about being able to blame the pan for my
possible paella recipe failure were dashed by the arrival of your pan.
Wow! That's the kind of pan that makes you realize why you keep your
Farberware hidden in the cupboards. Thanks. That's a good-lookin' pan."
  - Robert Frenchu, Carson City, NV

  The above is an excerpt from http://www.paellapans.com/testimonials.html

 - - - - - - - - -

ROBERT FRENCHU SIGNS POSTS FROM PYRAMID NET AS 'DR. JOSE MARIACHI'

[ Subject: Re: Robert Frenchu is a dumb shit neo-Nazi
[ From: Robert Frenchu <robert_frenchu@ya-take_out-hoo.com>
[ Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
[ Organization: Amalgamated Monolithics
[ Message-ID: <[email]>
[ X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548
[ MIME-Version: 1.0
[ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
[ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
[ X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 997805359 206.100.200.126
[     (Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:09:19 CDT)
[ NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.100.200.126 - max4-2-200-126.pyramid.net
[ NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:09:19 CDT
[ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:09:19 -0700
[
[  [...]
[ Dr. Jose Mariachi

 - - - - - - - - -

'DR. JOSE MARIACHI' POSTS FROM PYRAMID.NET

[ Subject: Re: Japanese jet strafes civilian targets
[ From: Dr. Jose Mariachi <[email]>
[ Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
[     alt.politics.bush,alt.rush-limbaugh,
[     talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.misc,
[     us.military.army
[ Organization: Dr. Jose Mariachi
[ Message-ID: <[email]>
[ Cancel-Lock: sha1:7v2gO29NAaBNAnvGLZl9Y9AQ6oQ=
[ X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548
[ MIME-Version: 1.0
[ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
[ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
[ X-NFilter: 1.2.0
[ X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 994196538 206.100.200.179
[    (Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:42:18 CDT)
[ NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:42:18 CDT
[ NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.100.200.179 -
[     max4-5-200-179.pyramid.net
[ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:45:17 -0700
[
[  [...]

===========================================================


author: harmony

subject: Re: GUN NUTS HIT - REMINGTON ARMS TO SHUT DOWN

text:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I did not know that there was a positive side to a weak economy; now i know.
murder rate will go down in Dec and Jan - not counting lawyers.


author: Fredric L. Rice

text:
[email] (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:

I would have expected gun sales to be soaring lately given the fascism
running this country right now.  Canned goods, firearms, and ammunition
should be doing record sales, I would have expected.

---
Yes, George W. Bush is an unelected baby killing fascist dictator.
Also: Scientology's International President (Audio files of this
nutter available at http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice )


author: The Lone Weasel

text:
[email] (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote in
news:[email]:

w

The gunloon boycott has finally paid off!  Now Remington will
PAY for collaborating with Clinton - bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Who needs Remington's sociofascist infested guns?  And don't
buy their damn weastern paintings either!

Solidarity!

_______________

"If we win, we'll have a president, with at least one of the
people that's running, a president where we work out of their
office. Unbelievably friendly relations..."

- NRA First Vice President Kayne Robinson telling members in
California in February that the group enjoyed "unbelievably
friendly relations" with Bush.

By Patricia Wilson
Reuters, 5/4/00


author: Larry

text:
[email] (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Thanks for the information on "Dr. Jao Mahara." I was laboring under
the impression that the gentleman was an ordinary, meddlesome,
curry-breathed, piece of shit from India.

Larry


text:
In article <[email]>,
 "harmony" <[email]> posted:

Whenever the gun nuts are impacted negatively, it's a plus for society.

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti


author: Steve Hix

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

You should take the hint...how many *other* things are you wrong about?


author: James Mayer

text:
On 1 Nov 2003 15:52:24 GMT, The Lone Weasel <[email]>
wrote:

    So, this seems to indicate that you do believe that guns are
infested with evil spirits.


author: Jerry Cloe

subject: has anyone tried an ownership group or coop?

text:
I've come across a lot of people that seem to want to invest in rental
properties, but no one wants to do this on their own, they just dont want
the hassle.

In my area, properties seem to demand much more rent than the house is
valued at.  (I've always believed to target your rent at about 1% of the
value of the house.  I think we could easily get 1.5 to 2% on most of the
properties we are discussing), and I also think we could get many of these
properties at below market value, so that makes the idea much more
attractive.

There has been discussion of a group effort.  I'm wondering if anyone else
has tried this and want to get some input and opinions.

The basic summary of what we have come up with is this:

Everyone invest $x (per "share").  So if we set initial share price at say
$x, and 20 people want to buy 1 share, and 20 people want to buy two shares,
we immidiatly have $(x * 60) in the bank.

Here is where we are having discussions and where we are looking for input
from others on how they are working it.

1 - We establish an "order" to the group, and incorporate (ie, president,
vp, cfo, etc).

2 - We hire an active manager.  This person would take care of day to day
issues, outsourcing where needed (plumber, lawncare etc).  Based on the
number of properties, this may be a part time or full time position.

3 - In future may hire maintanance person.

4 - Any of the investors can help scope out properties and bring them to the
group.

5 - At the "end of the month" we take all rents paid, pay out appropriate
expenses (above mentioned manager, any needed maintenance, any corporate
expenses, etc).  With whats left, we divide that down (discussing
percentages) and part of it goes out as a "dividend" to the "shareholders",
part of it goes to a "maintenance pool" for when we have a major unexpected
expence on one of the properties and the remaining goes into the bank for
future property purchases.

6 - Our goal would be not to finance any properties, but we may consider if
an attractive offer comes up and we need the money for the transaction.

Obviously this is an over simplification and we have discussed these issues
in much much more detail.

Looking for ideas, pitfalls, etc from anyone who has done this.


author: Freud

subject: Re: has anyone tried an ownership group or coop?

text:
In article <ec0bfk$s07$[email]>, [email]
says...

What part of the country are you in? Around me (Mid-Atlantic) the return
seems more like .5% :(
Maybe I should move!


text:
Sam Leccima from Flip This House has a book comming out in September

http://samleccima.com/main.htm

It looks like a few of the chapters might have information that might
be helpful.

I have had the same Idea for starting a group but I am still in school
so it will be a few year befor I am able to do it.


text:
Hi Jerry
Your idea of group investing is interesting. What state or location do
you want to invest in? You can reply direct if you prefer.
John

Jerry Cloe wrote:


text:
How do you even make money at that level??  If anything goes wrong (any type
of repair) then your pretty much (insert bad word here).  Or if the property
goes unrented for a couple months (and you still have a bank loan on it),
you end up in the hole and it could take years before you see any income.

If your financing the property, then at that rate, pretty much all of the
rent goes to the bank, leaving nothing at all for profit or repairs.  I'd be
curious to hear some of your actual numbers if you care to share.

Around here (should I say where I'm at?? maybe I'm sitting on an
undiscovered goldmine), you can literally find houses all over the place for
$50k, that should get at least $750 rent (that's 1.5% for the mathematically
challenged).  Rule of thumb I've always heard is if I can't get at least
$500 there is just no practical way to make a profit on the property (I
think rule of thumb assumes financing, I'd rather outright own the
property).  This also gives me quite a bit of negotiating room, so if they
say, "well we can really only afford about $650", I can still call it a done
deal and make money.

Another thing I am seeing a lot of in this area is foreclosures.  I know I'm
not seeing all of them, only a small fraction (at least that's what some web
sites would like to lead me to believe, including yahoo).  You can pick up a
house that might appraise for $75k-$100k for well under $20k, but there's a
catch to that price...  Usually the people that got foreclosed on punched a
few holes, whacked the kitchen sink and faucet up with a hammer, stabbed the
a/c condenser, cracked the toilet (one I saw they actually stole the
toilet), cut a few wires, a lot of things like that.  I've seen circuit
panels pried off the walls, hot water tanks missing, and all sorts of other
stuff that you just gota stand there and say "why in the world".  People can
be pretty bitter when they are foreclosed on.  But that leaves me a bargain,
as even though it "seems and looks" like a lot of damage, often all can be
repaired for less than $10k to $15k.  But still, that leaves a house that I
can purchase and fix for a total investment of less than $30k.  So, when the
house appraises for $75k, and I'm getting $750 rent (market value?), then
its as if I'm making 2.5%.  That's 2.5 times what I would make on an
equivalent "ready to go" investment.

As far as another point (and this could be why your only getting 1/2%), I
absolutely wont touch a property if my investment is going to exceed $100k,
and I usually won't touch it if its going to exceed $50k (buying and
fixing/upgrading).

I'm also looking at some apartments, so obviously these rules change and
don't apply in that situation.


author: Five Cats

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9lujc1$iog$[email]>, john <[email]
erve.co.uk> writes

Firstly, your statement does nothing to answer Carole's statement.

Secondly, considerably more of the animals slaughtered than 1% had
clinical signs of FMD, and a further number had antibodies to FMD.
These animals had no clinical signs but could have been secreting the
FMD virus and therefore be capable of infecting further animals.

John only every looks at old experiments, preferably pre-1950.

Sheep are not immune, they simply don't get very ill with it (at least
not with the strain currently active in the UK) so it's easy to miss,
plus lameness is apparently quite common in sheep (I've no idea why).
However they have no trouble spreading it to pigs and cattle, and cattle
certainly get *very* ill with

There are many factors affecting susceptibility to disease, not least of
which are genetic predisposition's and mental state.  Animals and people
which are stressed are more susceptible, as are those which are already
ill (heard of secondary infections?), the young and the old.  However it
doesn't matter how stressed, young or old you are - you won't get an
infectious disease if you aren't exposed to the responsible bacteria or
virus.

This is why the people who provided clean water and decent sewerage,
encouraged people to control mice, rats and other pests, and got doctors
to wash their hands properly between patients (etc.) did far more to
control and prevent disease than the nutritionists will ever do.


author: Carole

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
Why does this argument have to be bacteria don't cause disease, germs do?
No germs cause it you idiot - go lick an agar plate and you'll see.

This is like the 5 blind men who all saw an elephant a different way. An
elephant is like a piece of string but also like a tree trunk etc.

It is obvious that both toxins + germs can cause disease.

However, there are 2 different types of disease.
1. The contagious types such as foot & mouth, the flu and aids,
2. The degenerative type.

While antibiotics and immunisations can prevent type 1 diseases, they don't
have any effect on type 2 diseases such as rheumatism, allergies, gout etc.
The only way to treat type 2 is detoxifying the body.

Stop all the name calling and slanging matches and get somewhere with the
topic why don't you!

Carole
http://members.dynamite.com.au/hubbca

john <[email]> wrote in message
news:9kdm0n$evp$[email]...


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9km8hi$m3j$[email]>, Jan
<[email]> writes
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The get-out clause.


author: PF Riley

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:10:32 +0100, "john"
<[email]> wrote:

I stopped reading when I realized just how long it is, and I had
already seen the moron who wrote it claim that "eukaryote" and
"prokaryote" are synonymous with "aerobic" and "anaerobic" (they are
not), and claim that Streptococcus pyogenes is part of the
"lactobacilli family." (This is like saying a horse is part of the
dolphin family.)


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9kdm0n$evp$[email]>, john says...

Contact information:
Address: P.O. Box 19162 Boulder, CO 80308
Phone: 720-304-6310
Personal consultations available $65.00 per hour

That's the author and website owner as posted on his website.  For anyone
interested in pursuing the nutrition recommendations of a former high school
teacher.

amp


author: Mattias Haglund

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:10:32 +0100, "john"
<[email]> wrote:

If you would like to test whether germs cause disease, feel free to
lick some of the agar plates in the lab near to where I currently
work.

If you're not pressed for time, we have a room where tissues from
Creutzfeld-Jacob patients are stored. It would only take you a couple
of years to get a good indication of whether the prion theory is any
good.

/mattias


author: Mark Probert

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 04:00:16 +1000, "Carole"
<[email]> wrote:

Rerad up on John and see that you are asking the impossible.


author: Rich Andrews

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
[email] (PF Riley) wrote in
news:[email]:

It goes without saying that any site that john of whaleto recommends, is
probably moronic and a lie.

rich


author: Tsu Dho Nimh

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
amp_spamfree <[email]> wrote:

All I see is this:
  var code='';document.write('');

And a bunch of stuff in the source ... he's sending JavaScript
web bugs!  Those are 1x1 pixel images that allow the host
computer to tell EXACTLY which IP address you are using because
your computer will ask for the images and give the IP address of
where tosend them.

  I added the * to keep them from turning into GIFS on those of
you who read news with your browser, but note how he munged the
part that should read "img src=" to "im'+'g src=" in order to
keep the Web-bug filters from seeing it.

var code='';document.write('<im'+'g
src="*http://stats-glb.mcgslb.com/images/glb/glb2.gif" width="1"
height="1"><im'+'g
src="*http://ctl.mcgslb.com/images/glb/ctl2.gif" width="1"
height="1">
<im'+'g
rc="*http://a1676.g.akamai.net/7/1676/619/od0001/media.superstats.com/banners/straight120x60.gif"
border="0"></a>');

Tsu Dho Nimh

When faced with choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
John Kenneth Galbraith


author: john

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"amp_spamfree" <[email]> wrote in message
news:EOya7.16280$[email]...
school

Sure beats allopathy at a few hundred billion a year

john

"The only cure of a degenerative disease ever established, has been by a
vitamin, mineral, or essential food factor. No prescription drug has EVER
cured a SINGLE degenerative disease. While antibiotics can kill bacteria in
the body and have no doubt saved lives that would otherwise have been lost
since the discovery of penicillin, this does not mean that the bacteria is
the CAUSE of the "disease" being treated nor does it mean that antibiotics
are the BEST way to handle the situation because Klenner (MD)demonstrated
way back in the fifties (published hospital studies, Southern Medical J)
that intravenous vitamin C in megadoses kills off ANY infection known to man
(including tetanus -lockjaw) without ANY harmful side effects. What is being
treated when an antibiotice is used... is the SYMPTOM, not the disease, but
that is another story for another day. To say that bacteria cause disease is
like saying that the flies cause the manure pile and firemen cause house
fires because each of the latter are found on the scene. Bacteria are
EFFECTS.... not CAUSES."--Dr Duffy DC


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
john,

Take a good lick!  As a matter of fact I would pay part of your trip to
wherever to do so.  Is there anyone else that will contribute to the
expense of sending john to a lab where he can partake of "something
special"?

rich

[email] (Mattias Haglund) wrote in
news:[email]:


author: Eric Hocking

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"Mattias Haglund" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The article actually contradicts it's own premise (paragraph before last
section entitled "Pasteur Realises Mistake".

"We must be proof against virulent forms of bacteria by keeping our interior
clean."

Uh... if bacteria don't cause disease, why must we "be proof against" them?

"We avoid disease only by keeping ourselves in such a state of health, that
germs are powerless against us."

In other words, "We avoid disease by combatting bacteria."

What a confused and contradictory rant that article was.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
Mark Probert <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

But you have to agree that both toxins + germs are responsible for what is
called disease.
Look at foot and mouth -- if you say that only toxins cause disease it means
that all those sheep that got infected had toxic bodies.
There are many contagious diseases such as chicken pox, measles, mumps, flu
and so on. Germs have to cause it.

However, there are two different kinds of diseases:
1. infectious ones
2. degenerative ones such as rheumatism which aren't caused by germs.

Carole
http://members.dynamite.com.au/hubbca


author: Jan

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"Rich Andrews" <[email]> wrote in message n>

It goes without saying that anything you say is allopath propaganda.

john


author: Adam Teasdale

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
I'd go along with that. Treating symptoms makes a lot of money, keeps health
care in the control of others and not the patients, and keeps the NHS in
work. The NHS would have an identity crisis if we had cures, what on earth
would all those people do? They'd have no justification for their moaning
and groaning and the patients would feel so much better psychologically for
it too. Oh, and no waiting lists and sitting around in clinics for hours on
end, keeping people away from their work.

Can't have that, can we, no paperwork, no passing people haphazardly from
department to department, subjecting them to duff and antiquated equipment.
A cure would be far too much to cope with.

Just imagine, all those people doing voluntary work in hospitals would be
unleashed on the community, the voluntary sector wouldn't be able to cope.

Then how would some doctors cope with having no one to be patronise, if they
haven't got their patients?

Then, what about the Post Office, think of the lost revenue in cancellation
letters, and the poor clerks who spend hours printing them off, popping them
in envelopes and mailing them, and Hospital Managers without the ability to
'Manage'. I don't think successful retail companies can cope with them in
their sector, losing them money on a large scale, the shock would bring
shares down.

Heaven forbid, people in the system might even begin to realise that their
bank balance is determined by people who suffer ill health on their behalf.
They'd have to stop disempowering people and making them feel like second
class citizens.

GP's would lose most of their work, and definitely their power over people's
minds and lives without chronic diseases, that's a definite no, no.

It's no good John, we need the diseases, without them the NHS would get so
sick, it would grind to a holt     (well......................) and this
country NEEDS the disorganisation of the NHS

How would the politicians cope, the media, etc...... the knock on
consequence of having cures is horrendous when you get down to it, society
might just collapse (sick eh).

Don't we have to start feeling sorry for those people who are dependant on
such a system?  Of course they have to defend the corner of vaccinating
people to the hilt, bad practice, embracing bacteria and powerful
medications for the masses. The whole picture calls for more pity and
tolerance from the patients I think!

Carol T


author: D. C. Sessions

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In <9keic3$of4$[email]> john posted:

Neat trick, that, since clinical tetanus isn't a bacterial infection and isn't generally
treated by antibiotics.  The symptoms are the result of a bacterial toxin -- plain
poisoning -- and action of ascorbate salts on the toxin would be trivially easy
to demonstrate _in_vitro_.  Alas, such demonstration seems to be lacking, perhaps
because the advocates of "ascorbate cures everything" lack confidence in
objective tests.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9keic3$of4$[email]>, john says...

and of course our neighborhood chiropractor provides more convincing data of the
ineffectiveness of modern allopathic medicine.


author: James Teo

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:42:49 GMT, Rich Andrews
<[email]> wrote:

I'd contribute! Let's call it a Field Study. He can have as much
Vitamin C as he wants, but he has to lick bacterial plates of Strep
pyogenes and Staph aureus, plus have an infusion of HIV +ve blood.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"Carole" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9lbp53$dji$[email]...

means

Most were healthy, over 90%, possibley 99% of the animals kileld were
healthy.

And FMD is know to avoid healthy animals if you look at old experiments.
Most sheep are immune to it.

flu

Seems as if germs play the major part, but many don't "catch" it even when
exposed to the germs, some live in us all the time.

What makes them virulent--the missing disease factor, like diet & toxemia
that wouldn't make any money to the controlling disease industry.
john


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:08:23 +1000, "Carole"
<[email]> wrote:

Well, all of the above you named are viruses, not bacteria.

That's a strange classification (diseases caused by germs and disease
not caused by germs). Most classifications are more specific about
causes:
- infectious diseases
- genetic diseases
- degenerative diseases
- drug/toxin-related diseases
- traumatic/mechanical diseases
- psychosomatic diseases
- the infamous iatrogenic kind.
Even that is a bit simplistic since the causes are often
multifactorial. Detoxifying the body isn't going to solve non-toxin
related diseases.


author: fred & michele

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
Why posting under the name "Jan"?  Any others?

Michele
Jan <[email]> wrote in message
news:9km8kr$5i9$[email]...
<" It goes without saying that anything you say is allopath propaganda.

john">


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"Jan" <[email]> wrote in
news:9km8kr$5i9$[email]:

If you call the truth propaganda, then that proves my point.

rich


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:06:20 +0100, "Adam Teasdale"
<[email]> wrote:

The key word is not *single* or *ever* but *degenerative*. It's funny
since instead of talking about degenerative diseases, he goes on to
talk about bacterial infections which aren't degenerative diseases,
and then quotes a single study from the 1950s of some anonymous
hospital study in some unknown journal.
BTW, who's Dr Duffy, DC? (runs off to do a Google search) Ah, it's one
of John's friends. Never mind then.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"James Teo" <[email]> wrote in message

Yum yum.

john

"In laboratories throughout the United States and in a certain number in
Canada including at the University of Alberta. the US Government provided
the leadership for the development of AIDS for the purpose of population
control. After the scientists had perfected it, the government sent medical
teams from the Centers for Disease Control-under the direction of Dr Donald
A. Henderson, their investigator into the 1957 chronic fatigue epidemic in
Punta Gorda-during 1969 to 1971 to Africa and some countries such as India,
Nepal and Pakistan where they thought the population was becoming too
large.13 They gave them all a free vaccination against smallpox; but five
years after receiving this vaccination, 60% of those inoculated were
suffering from AIDS. They tried to blame it on a monkey, which is
nonsense."--Donald W. Scott MA, MSc.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In <[email]> James Teo posted:

He might object to the infusion.  Just dump the HIV culture into the
next colonic he has.  All natural and so forth.


author: Barry Davis

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
i think you need to look at the latest Mary Shamon Interview on About.com
Thyroid Section with a doctor who has found that Micoplasma cause majority
of Auto immune Diseases and the efficacy of low dose tetracycline


author: Kristofer D. Dale

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In misc.health.alternative James Teo <[email]> wrote:

OTOH, detoxifying can help jumpstart a failing immune system and allow
the body to better defend against many diseases, reducing dependence
on medical intervention and increasingly expensive and dangerous
pharmaceuticals. Nutrition is a major factor as well, detox alone will
only go so far...

            _o                   Kristofer Dale,
         _ \<,_                  ragged individualist,
   _____( )/ ( )_____            statistic at large...

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"fred & michele" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9kmt4t$[email]...

Any more pointless comments?

john


author: David Wright

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9kmt4t$[email]>,
fred & michele <[email]> wrote:

"You must call me Mr. Biggles, or Group Captain Biggles, or Mary
 Biggles, if I'm dressed as my wife."
           Monty Python, "Biggles Dictates a Letter"

One hopes not.  John is very insulting to Dr Jeff for using more than
one ID.

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
       "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
                  were standing on my shoulders."