author: RonB

subject: OT -- 'Passion' attacks dishonest

text:
New Yorker Exposes Dishonesty of Mel Gibson's Critics

Full story at:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/9/18/132440.shtml

---
What They're Really Trying to Censor

It has apparently not occurred to Foxman and other Jewish critics that
they have been conned into providing cover for the members of the
committee they helped to create, by making the phony charge of anti-
Semitism while the scholarsï¿½ real objection is to the use of the Gospels
as the filmï¿½s source.

Said Gibson: "I wanted to be true to the Gospels. That has never been
done." And thatï¿½s what the fuss is really all about.

Wrote Father Michael Reilly in NewsMax.com: "Some of Mel Gibson's
biggest critics are Catholic theologians. Believe it or not, they are
ï¿½accusingï¿½ him of following the Gospel accounts of Jesus' passion too
closely. In other words, Gibson hasn't consulted them to receive their
guidance and direction in understanding the Gospels."
---

And:

---
At this point Braveheart had had enough.

A sleazy column by New York Times arts and entertainment editor Frank
Rich set him reaching for his claymore. "I want to kill him," he fumed
to Boyer. "I want his intestines on a stick ï¿½ I want to kill his dog."

It was these lines, of course, that attracted the most attention among
those in the media who reported details of Boyerï¿½s article. Nobody seems
to have noticed the fascinating background Boyer had provided.
---

This article points out, clearly, that the real reason for the attack on
Gibson's "Passion" is that it follows the Gospels too closely, not
because it is "anti-Semitic."

More on Boyer's 14 page article at:
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34539


author: Paulo Joe Jingy

subject: Re: OT -- 'Passion' attacks dishonest

text:
RonB wrote:

 From the article:
---
Boyer traces the beginnings of the controversy back to a badly flawed
New York Times story by free-lance journalist Christopher Noxon last
March 9 in which Gibsonï¿½s 85-year-old father, Hutton, is described as a
adherent of the Traditionalist Catholic movement, which dissents from
much of the work of the Vatican II council.

Mel Gibson is also a traditionalist who will attend only the Latin
Tridentine Mass and has built a church where that Mass is celebrated,
the story said.

Conflict of Interest

As it turns out, Noxon's family owns property near Gibson's Malibu
church ... and opposed its construction.

In his story Noxon implied that Gibsonï¿½s film, then being filmed in
Italy, might "serve as a propaganda vehicle" for Gibsonï¿½s Traditionalist
views.
---

So--we have one of (if not *the*) largest newspaper in the world,
allowing itself to be used as a whore for one man's personal vendetta
against Mel Gibson?  One of the--supposedly--premier newspapers, in the
world, gives a so-called "free-lance journalist" room to vent his hissy-fit.

Now that sure is "objective", isn't it?

Considering all of the other credibility problems the New York Times has
been experiencing, lately, maybe "The Painted Lady" would be a more
appropriate nickname than "The Gray Lady"?

-----
Paulo Joe Jingy


author: Ron

subject: Re: OT -- 'Passion' attacks dishonest

text:
Two things, Ron, beacuse this is clearly as issue you care alot about
and I don't want to rehash our earlier discussion:

 There was a very interesting article about Gibson and the film is last
week's New Yorker. NOT the style issue, the previous one. I'd strongly
encourage you to check it out-- if only because one of the things that
it talks about is where the current Passion narrative (including
Gibson's) comes from. And it's not just the Gospels. It's also
interesting because it quotes Gibson talking about one explicit change
he made from the Gospels, and his regrets over that. It's a pretty
balanced article and I think there's some useful stuff you could take
from it.

 Second, there's an article current on Slate.com,
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088417/ which touches at lest briefly on issues
of the writing of the Gospels.

 Obviously, you will dismiss some of that if you believe that the
Gospels were so divinely inspired that they are immune to qualities of
human nature that normaly infect our work, but the article does an
interseting thing--talking about the reasons why the original Christians
would be anti-semitic, and pointing out how the later Gospels may well
be embellishing the earlier ones. Interesting stuff.

 Much more interesting, IMHO, than constant attacks on Gibson's critics.

-Ron


subject: Re: OT -- 'Passion' attacks dishonest

text:
Dear New York Times,

Hiya.  Boy have I got some dirt on Floyd Groober, down the street.  For
three nights in a row, now, he let his dog out to run.  No leashes or
nothing.  Can you believe it?

Not to mention those nasty rumors, I heard about him and his missus.
They register as Republicans, but John told Eunice, who told my wife
that they may have voted for the Democrat in the last *two* presidential
elections!

(And that ain't all I got!)

Anyways, I'd like to write a story about them--me being a "free-lance
journalist"--an' all, and thought sure as shootin' you'd want to print
it in the New York Times.

Billy Joe Axegrinder
Free-lance journalist.


subject: Re: OT -- 'Passion' attacks dishonest

text:
Paulo Joe Jingy wrote:

Dear Mr. Axegrinder,

The New York Times is always looking for articles (real or imagined)
from "objective" (NOT!), knowledgeable writers, such as yourself.

We would be interested in seeing anything you might have on Floyd
Groober.  However, we'd be especially interested on any dirt you have on
Mel Gibson, his father, his wife, his children, his cat or his dog.
Innuendo or outright fabrications are definitely encouraged.

Journalistic integrity is not our concern.  Instead, we are looking for
good news stories (i.e. news stories that fit our preconceived biases).
  Can you live up to the standards of the New York Times?  (Rhetorical
question, Mr. Axegrinder--we have no standards).

We anxiously await your reply.

Rich Frank
New York Times


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: FS: MISC 4-SALE

text:
Be very careful of [email]

 This guy sells incomplete software in need of boot disks.
 Not only Win95 boot disks, but boot disks for Win95 that
 have been specially created by the computer company that
 burned his copies of Win95 and are unique to these cdroms.
 They will not install.  He also sells hardware on the I'net
 and I'm posting this warning as he may be hiding something
 in regards to his hardware as well as his software.

 I had posted him of two bad copies.  I posted him a few days
 after this stating I had one more copy to obtain that will
 not install at all.   He refunded the first two and promised
 a refund on the third.  He also said he would only agree to
 refunds if I promised to post in the newsgroups that he was
 not "at fault".   I refused.   You've been warned.

 For More Info:
 Call Gary @ 518-235-0957 or
 http://www.wizvax.net/flash/index.htm
 Please Include Some Quoted Text So I Know
 What Is Being Discussed.


author: Harold Mellow

subject: Politically Correct Lefists Wrong About Slavery

text:
The Southern Argument for Slavery

Southern slaveholders often used biblical passages to justify slavery.Those
who defended slavery rose to the challenge set forth by the Abolitionists.
The defenders of slavery included economics, history, religion, legality,
social good, and even humanitarianism, to further their arguments.

Defenders of slavery argued that the sudden end to the slave economy would
have had a profound and killing economic impact in the South where reliance
on slave labor was the foundation of their economy. The cotton economy would
collapse. The tobacco crop would dry in the fields. Rice would cease being
profitable.

Defenders of slavery argued that if all the slaves were freed, there would be
widespread unemployment and chaos. This would lead to uprisings, bloodshed,
and anarchy. They pointed to the mob's "rule of terror" during the French
Revolution and argued for the continuation of the status quo, which was
providing for affluence and stability for the slaveholding class and for all
free people who enjoyed the bounty of the slave society.

Some slaveholders believed that African Americans were biologically inferior
to their masters. During the 1800s, this arguement was taken quite seriously,
even in scientific circles.Defenders of slavery argued that slavery had
existed throughout history and was the natural state of mankind. The Greeks
had slaves, the Romans had slaves, and the English had slavery until very
recently.

Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point
to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's
house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament,
Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery
was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it.

Defenders of slavery turned to the courts, who had ruled, with the Dred Scott
Decision, that all blacks ï¿½ not just slaves ï¿½ had no legal standing as
persons in our courts ï¿½ they were property, and the Constitution protected
slave-holders' rights to their property.

Defenders of slavery argued that the institution was divine, and that it
brought Christianity to the heathen from across the ocean. Slavery was,
according to this argument, a good thing for the enslaved. John C. Calhoun
said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of
history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so
improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."

Defenders of slavery argued that by comparison with the poor of Europe and
the workers in the Northern states, that slaves were better cared for. They
said that their owners would protect and assist them when they were sick and
aged, unlike those who, once fired from their work, were left to fend
helplessly for themselves.

James Thornwell, a minister, wrote in 1860, "The parties in this conflict are
not merely Abolitionists and slaveholders, they are Atheists, Socialists,
Communists, Red Republicans, Jacobins on the one side and the friends of
order and regulated freedom on the other."


subject: Re: Politically Correct Lefists Wrong About Slavery

text:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:22:14 -0500, Free Lunch wrote:

His diapers, perhaps?

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=1124

I wonder if that the same Thornwell.


author: Gunner Asch

text:
On 13 Aug 2011 01:59:44 +0100, Harold Mellow <[email]> wrote:

Communists..in 1860?

Lenin didn even bother writing his books until 10 yrs after that

Gunner


author: Free Lunch

text:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:09:05 -0700, Gunner Asch <[email]>
wrote in alt.atheism:

What did Lenin write in 1870?


author: JohnN

text:
On Aug 13, 11:31 am, Deucalion <[email]> wrote:

Very interesting, thanks.

JohnN


author: Dogfight

text:
"Gunner Asch" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

And Marx didn't publish Das Kapital until 1867!


text:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT), JohnN <[email]>
wrote:

Thanks indeed.

Learn something new every day!

However I was thinking Marx when I wrote Lenin. But..I was still wrong!

Much obliged!

Gunner


author: Strabo

text:
On 8/13/2011 11:20 AM, Dogfight wrote:

Marx did not conceive the concept of socialism. It's been around since
the 1700s.

As for the word communist...

Origin:
1835ï¿½45;  < French communiste.

1841, as both a noun and adj., from Fr. communiste (see communism).
First attested in writing by John Goodwin Barmby (1820-1881), British
Owenite and utopian socialist who founded the London Communist
Propaganda Society in 1841. Main modern sense emerged after publication

The English ruling elite have been socialists since the 1850s.


author: Sales

subject: **  FS: Mac keyboards & mice  **

text:
VISA/MC/COD/Prepayment accepted. No surcharge for credit card orders!
 Unless otherwise noted, all parts and accessories are used and come
 with a 30-day warranty.

 Check out our web site for other products in our inventory:

              http://www.nexcomp.com
      -or-    http://www.go-nexus-go.com/nexcomp/

 Phone (M-F, 9AM-6PM central):

              Orders: (888) GET-A-MAC   toll-free
              Info:   (281) 469-4061
              Fax:    (281) 469-3458

Input/Output:
------------

 - Apple extended keyboard II, with coiled ADB cable.................$29
 - Apple extended keyboard (I), with ADB cable.......................$29
 - Apple standard keyboard (II), with ADB cable......................$35
 - Apple Design keyboard, with ADB cable.............................$35
 - Mac Plus keyboard, no cable.......................................$25
 - Mac Plus mouse....................................................$19
 - Apple ADB mouse (I)...............................................$17
 - Apple ADB mouse II (ergonomic)....................................$25
 - New third-party ergonomically styled ADB mouse, 1-yr. war.........$25
 - New Fellows mouse pen (writes like a pen).........................$15
 - New Fellows mini mouse (for small spaces).........................$15
 - New round microphones..............................................$9
 - Plaintalk microphone (P/N 590-0670), newer model..................$14


subject: Lowest Prices On Hardware & Software  2349

text:
Lowest Prices On Hardware & Software

http://explode.to/hardwaresales

emxyqzvymcdedvfxzerjeeghzezzcsfrigywrjgjpzkwclquwtuhylmfdgngcjf


author: ~Tony~

subject: My fingers are nearly bit through

text:
I have been following this group for a long time now. It's funny and stuff
at times and sometimes it's boring. But today, it's like watching a very
intense movie. This Rocky dude I think is playing with fire. If he posts
anymore stuff about the judge, the judge is gonna kick his butt is what I
think. And Rocky's gonna deserve it. The punk just doesn't know when to
shut the you know what up. I'll bet that Rocky will try it is what I thnk.

I can't wait to see if the idiot is gonna temp fate and try to take the
judge on. BTW where is Rocky today? He was gloatin' all over the place
yesterday bout being this big time winner and all and a lawyer and stuff.

I thnk he's full of it myself. I can't write good but he writes alot of big
words and stuff but they don't seem to say very much when you try to make
out what they are about. His websites are sure confusing to read anyway.


author: realitytrucker

subject: Re: My fingers are nearly bit through

text:
On Aug 3, 8:57 pm, "The Honorable Dr. Rocky Roads Presiding Judge"
<[email]> wrote:

Oh, I see.  Your session expired before you could reply to the Judge
but you managed to post this one.

Lying little prick.  You chickened out.  What a coward.  Talk a big
talk talk but just a coward.


author: Orson Wells as CitizenCain

subject: Re: My fingers are nearly bit through

text:
"~Tony~" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns9AEFD77B2FEFEalprovaNScomcastnet@216.196.97.136...

Personally I don't give a damn about this "Rocky" person, but the fact that
he brings up ten-year-old posts to try to win an argument shows how fucking
stupid and messed up he is in the head. He seems to spam the group and on
rare occasions is dumber than Bullis. I wouldn't mind reading his obituary,
actually.


author: Court Tee-Vee

subject: Re: My fingers are nearly bit through

text:
"The Honorable Dr. Rocky Roads Presiding Judge" <[email]> wrote in
message
news:[email]...

LIAR!


subject: Agent Q

text:
Ok I have ask this before here, but forget the answer.  My
arrow keys no longer move the bar up and down the message menu.  But
moves the whole menu up and down, how to set to go back to what it use
to do.


author: Dave K

subject: Re: Agent Q

text:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:40:00 -0800, [email] wrote:

  <ScrLk>  or 'Scroll Lock.'  It is a toggle  press it once to turn
on, again to turn off.


author: Jim Rusling

subject: Re: Agent Q

text:
[email] wrote:

Not sure about your problem, but my arrow keys seem to work correctly.
I don't know of any Agent setting for this.


subject: Re: Agent Q

text:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:40:00 -0800, [email] wrote:

  One more thing; Make sure that the focus is in the pane whose
behavior you want to change.  In other words, it you are having
problems in the message list, make sure that pane is active, then
press <ScrLk>


subject: Re: Agent Q

text:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:14:48 -0500, Dave K <[email]> wrote:

	Thanks, BTW version 6 is not out.


subject: Re: Agent Q

text:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:52:12 -0500, Dave K <[email]> wrote:

	Got it, thanks.


subject: Re: Agent Q

text:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:45:07 -0800, [email] wrote:

<g>

  I has been since Thursday.

  See Message-ID: <[email]> in
a.u.o.r.f.a.


author: Tom Anderson

subject: Re: Chiltern's plans for Oxford-Princes Risborough via Cowley

text:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Tom Anderson wrote:

I had a bit of a look to see if there was such a thing as an underground
lock, and i couldn't quite find any, although i did find an underground
inclined plane:

http://www.d.lane.btinternet.co.uk/canal2.htm

Does anyone know of an actual underground lock?

tom


author: Paul Scott

text:
"Tom Anderson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

No, but this might help.  Depending on the required gradient on the tracks,
you could conceivably cross the canal on the near level, traditionally this
would have involved a swing bridge. However a 'drop lock' (or sump lock) has
been provided for the Forth and Clyde restoration to allow the canal to
effectively burrow under a road, the same could be done under a railway:

http://www.gentles.info/link/Drop_Lock/Drop_Lock.htm

Paul S


author: Richard J.

text:
Tom Anderson <[email]> wrote on 07 June 2009 18:23:07 ...

There's one in Manchester, near Piccadilly station.
Photo at http://www.flickr.com/photos/binaryape/92608490/


author: [redacted]

subject: Skiing with kids out east?

text:
We're looking for some places to go skiing next winter in the east.  We've
thought of Vermont, but have no idea where else to check out.  I'm trying to
find somewhere reasonably priced, where the kids can ski (kids are 8, 13, 15)
and where we can relax.  Is there decent skiing in Virginia, for example?  We
are in Cincinnati and would drive to and from.
     Thanks!!!!
        Brian
      [email]


author: Bob Davis

subject: Re: Skiing with kids out east?

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] writes:
|> We're looking for some places to go skiing next winter in the east.  We've
|> thought of Vermont, but have no idea where else to check out.  I'm trying to

Vermont is very nice.  Some places are Killington (huge), Stowe (pricey),
Sugarbush (large).  Smaller places that may be less pricey are Bolton, Mt. Snow,
Burke, Jay Peak.

|> find somewhere reasonably priced, where the kids can ski (kids are 8, 13, 15)
|> and where we can relax.  Is there decent skiing in Virginia, for example?  We
No.  I grew up in Virginia.  No place I would call decent skiing there.  My
father used to go to Pennsylvania to ski (Blue Knob, etc.) but when I went
with him once I was un-impressed.  Definitely not worth driving to from
Cincinatti.

Bob (In the mountains in Vermont, where most of the snow is now gone)


subject: Re: Skiing with kids out east?

text:
In Vermont:

	Smugglers Notch is a good choice for a family oriented
	destination resort. There are trailside condos, activities
	for kids, a day care center, etc.  They do not have much
	snowmaking, and the temperature can be VERY cold in January
	(35 below when I was there 2 years ago). If you go, I suggest
	mid-February or later. There are lots of package deals available.
	Lots of intermediate level trails.

	Stowe is my all time favorite area in Vermont. There is
	a tremendous variety of lodging all along the access road,
	with something in every price range. The Stowe area association
	has an extensive list, and there are some great package deals
	(or at least there were 3 years ago). Pay for two adults and
	get free lodging, lifts and lessons for 2 kids. Good for all
	levels of skiers, from rank beginners to double diamonds.

	Stratton is my second favorite area in Vermont. It has become
	a destination resort. There are some package deals, but it
	may be more expensive than Stowe or Smugglers. Especially
	good for beginners to advanced intermediates. Limited amount
	of double diamond.

	Killington is to be avoided in my opinion! Its way too big,
	easy to get lost, and you can spend all day crossing from
	peak to peak on narrow "catwalks".

    David Schwartz


author: DC

subject: Re: Skiing with kids out east?

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] wrote:

Try Pennsylvania!  Specifically, there are a couple of places south
of Pittsburgh that my wife and I enjoy.  The resorts are called
Hidden Valley and Seven Springs.  They are both near Champion, PA off
of the Donegal exit of I70/76 (Pennsylvania Turnpike).  From the
Cinncinati area you could take I71 to I70 and over.  This past year
this area got dumped on with the snow!  It was great skiing.  We went
in March, and it was still great.

The other choices could be West Virginia.  They have some very good
ski resorts such as Canaan Valley northeast of Elkins and Snowshoe
a little farther and south of Elkins.

The skiing in Virginia is risky.  When it's cold or we actually get
some snow, then it can be pretty good.  However, the main resorts I
know of here don't have a great number of slopes, and they're all
fairly short relative to some of the previously mentioned ski resorts.
The resorts I've heard of here are Wintergreen south and west of the
Charlottesville area, Massanutten just east of Harrisonburg (I81),
and Bryce an hour or so north of Harrisonburg just east of the West
Virginia line.  I've been to Massanutten several times, but never to
Bryce or Wintergreen.

Good Luck and good skiing!

DC

  |==================================================|
  | David R. Crisp      <[email]> |
  ====================================================


subject: The new immigration bill

text: Does anyone know when the new bill will get implemented/rejected?


author: Andrew Miller

subject: Re: The new immigration bill

text:
Bill C-31 (new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act) went through the
first reading in the House of Commons on April 06, 2000 and two months later
through second reading. It still has some way to go in the House and then in
the Senate.

Our Parliament is currently on summer break and will commence session on
October 12, 2000. Nobody knows or will even speculate when Bill C-31 will
finally be approved in the current form or in the revised form or all
together rejected.

Is the Parliament in your country scheduling exact dates when their
particular bills are approved or rejected? I don't think so...


author: Jim Humphries

subject: Re: The new immigration bill

text:
It is not at all clear when this will happen.  Nothing can be expected
for several months to come.
Jim Humphries, former visa officer

Jonta67 wrote:


author: Dan Duvall

subject: .    cholesterol levels too LOW?

text:
About six months ago, I had my blood cholesterol levels checked.
The results:

       * "good" cholesterol:  48
       *  "bad" cholesterol:  24

This was after a year or so of REALLY low-fat eating (usually under
15 grams per day) plus regular exercise.

I asked this question back then, but I'll ask again now since we never
arrived at a consensus:

-Is there any evidence or research to indicate that a very low total
 cholesterol level like mine is harmful?


author: B. Jennifer Zheng

subject: Re: cholesterol levels too LOW?

text:
In article <1s53j9$[email]> [email] (Dan Duvall) writes:

1. To quote Dr. Ornish (whom I worship), low cholesterol levels may be
associated w/ certain diseases, but it's the disease that caused the
cholesterol level to go down, not vice versa.  You body always makes enough
of what it needs.

2. Nathan Pritikin had a total cholesterol level of 110 for the last 10 (or 20?)
years of his life (he lived into 70's, I think).

3. Both Ornish and Pritikin advocate a 10% (fat) diet, and they both consider
a total cholesterol reading of 150 to be the upper limit for ALL AGES to be
considered heart-healthy.  100+age before 50 years old.

4. Average total cholesterol level in a more vegetarian oriented society (like
China) has been known to be around 110.

5. Total cholesterol level is usually higher than the sum of HDL and LDL
numbers.  So yours isn't as low as 72.  Probably around 100.  That is, it's not
too low at all.

6. The first time I ever tested my level, about 2 years ago, my HDL was 44,
and LDL about 50, total 118.  No problem whatsoever (except it went up later,
to a total of 154, which was "too high" in my book.)

7. A good number for your reference: try to bring your total:HDL closer to 2.
HDL can be raised by regular aerobic exercises, and LDL can be lowered by a
10% diet.  The total will take care of itself.

Hope it helps.
--jen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                ^
B. Jennifer Zheng  [email]  (916)928-6504    ---   __o        o     /=\
Love thy neighbor, don't eat them.              ----   _`\<,      </V    / = \
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~       --- (*)/(*)     / >   / = = \


subject: Re: .    cholesterol levels too LOW?

text:
In article <1s53j9$[email]>, [email] (Dan Duvall) writes:
Dan, you may have heard some of the press releases about low serum
cholesterol being linked to an increased cancer risk.  I've not reviewed
the medical literature since rewriting the notes for my human nutrition
course in the Summer of 1991.  Your best source of information will be the
JAMA review article that summarized all the clinical studies that have
been done on cholesterol and cancer. "Serum cholesterol levels and cancer
mortality in 361,662 men screen for the multiple risk factor intervention
trial" JAMA 257(7):943-48(1987).  A lot of the press reports on low serum
cholesterol and cancer came out of this landmark study.  The general
feeling that I got in reading this paper was that the low serum cholesterol
was really only a marker for cancer and not a cause of cancer.  This does
not mean that everyone with a low serum cholesterol has cancer.  One effect
of cancer on the body seems to be to lower the serum cholesterol level.
But a diet change and exercise will have the same effect.  I think that
it's still too early to get all upset about a low serum cholesterol being a
*cause* of cancer.  This is especially true since lung cancer seems to be
one particular cancer that is linked to a high serum cholesterol level as
an added risk factor for smokers. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 37:192-3(1983).

Marty B.


author: Michael Locker

subject: Re: .    cholesterol levels too LOW?

text:
In <1s53j9$[email]> [email] writes:

 	An initial--only initial--piece or research indicated that total
cholesterols below 160 may be associated with a higher incidence of stroke and
other similar vascular disease.  Right now, I wouldn't worry too much about it
until other studies come out.


author: Walt Thole

subject: "Russia for Russians"!

text:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/

White Russians riot against murderous mongrels.


author: Econotron

subject: Re: "Russia for Russians"!

text:
"Walt Thole" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Many people from the Caucuses region are of purer stock than Russians, who
lived under the Tartars and Mongols for centuries and carry  a good amount
of the latter genes. On the other hand western Slavs, such as Ukrainians and
Bulgarians, have some Turkish blood. Not to mention Asian roots of
Hungarians and others. So, your "genetic" view of who is against who in that
conflict is a fantasy.
e.


author: Lubow

subject: Re: "Russia for Russians"!

text:
On Dec 15, 10:14 pm, "Econotron" <[email]> wrote:

At a televised news conference, President Kennedy was questioned about
being criticized by the European press (in the countries that still
had colonies in Africa) concerning his statement, "Africa for the
Africans."

"Well," Kennedy replied, "I don't know who else Africa should be for."


author: Benj

subject: Re: "Russia for Russians"!

text:
On Dec 16, 6:58 am, Lubow <[email]> wrote:

Given the vast natural resources of Africa, I believe the common rule
used by virtually everyone in power operates: "Whenever there is a
large pile of money (or something valuable) it really OUGHT to be
stolen."


author: Blash

subject: Re: "Russia for Russians"!

text:
Walt Thole wrote on 12/14/10 7:36 PM:

GASP!!!!
Thank you for providing this valuable information to:
alt.california
alt.politics.economics
misc.invest.stocks
alt.politics,tx.guns
It will be printed out on soft pliable paper so that it serves some
purpose....


author: Anna

subject: Beware: BrokerageAmerica bait-and-switch!

text:
Beware that BrokerageAmerica will change its commonmissions after Apri1 1.
For example,

current:
Listed Stocks - 100  Shares or more, market order: Free, Limited order $5.

After 04/01/2002:
Listed Stocks - 999  Shares or less, market order: $5, Limited order $10.

I opened an account with them recently because of the low commision. Now,
they are going to change it. This is a "bait-and-swich" scheme to attract
new customers. Don't be fooled by their web site:

http://www.brokerageamerica.com/commissions.php


author: StevenA

subject: Re: Beware: BrokerageAmerica bait-and-switch!

text:
I also recently opened an account with Brokerage America based on
their promise of commission free trades for market orders of 100
shares or more.  I figured the offer was too good to last forever, but
this is rediculous.  Brokerage America has been in existence for I
believe less than a year.  When they raise their commissions after
such a short period, I have to agree that this is pure bait and
switch.

As for the quality of their service, it is, to put it politely,
sub-standard.  Although they are an internet only brokerage, they do
not offer e-mail transaction confirmations.  They also failed, without
explanation, to implement a change that I submitted on an open buy
limit order.

"Anna" <[email]> wrote in message news:<8Ozk8.213$[email]>...


author: Joe

text:
In fact, this is worse than bait-and-switch. Let me give you an example.

You saw an ad on the Sunday newspaper:

"IBM PCs stock number 123 are on sale for $500."

You went to the store. You found that the store no longer have IBM PCs with
stock number 123. The store manager said that the PCs were all sold out. But
they have PCs with stock number 456 for sale at $1000. You could walk out of
the store if you did not like to buy the $1000 PC. Some store might give you
a rain check for the $500 PC.

Now, consider this situation:

You bought the PC for $500 because of the ad you saw. You took the PC home
and are very happy that you get a great deal. After 2 weeks, the store
manager called you and said that they have to charge your credit card for an
additional $500 because they sold it too cheap.
Will you let the store charge your credit card for the additional $500?


text:
In fact, this is worse than bait-and-switch. Consider the following example:

You saw an ad on Sunday's news paper:

"IBM PC stock number 123 for sale $500"

You went to the store early.  You could not find any IBM PCs with stock
number 123. The store manager said that they were sold out. But IBM PCs
stock number 456 are for sale at $1000. You could walk out of the store if
you did not want to buy the $1000 PC. Some store might give you a rain check
for the $500 PC.

Now, consider this:

You bought the $500 PC and took it home. You were happy that you got a great
deal. Two weeks later, the store manager called you and said that they have
to charge you for an additional $500 because the store sold it too cheap to
make a profit....


author: Bill Rubin

text:
Joe wrote:

Your analogy is completely screwed up. They are not going to be
charging you more for trades that you already placed (or an item
which you already purchased). They will charge you more for
future transactions, and they are giving you advance notice of
it. It may suck that their price is going up, but they are not
forcing you to pay the higher rates.

The correct analogy would be that you called the store after 2
weeks and said you wanted to buy another computer, and the
manager told you that they no longer sold for $500, would you
like to buy it for $1000? You say no, and go elsewhere to buy
it. The first computer (and similarly, your trades up to when
the price is increased) was still sold to you at the old price.

Bill


text:
What about existing shares? Unless you transfer the account to another
company, you will pay higher rate when you trade your existing shares.

Yes, this is one scenario. That is, you close your account or transfer your
account to another company (like your go elsewhere suggestion). Unless you
have all cash in the account, closing the account will incure trading cost
at higher rate (liquiding all shares). Transferring your account may incur
extra fee; I sent an email to them asking about the transfer fee. The reply
did not mention the fee, just saying that account transfer needs to be
initiated by the new company.

Because the cost of  saying no to higher rate is quite high (unlike the PC
example), the company may think that existing customers may just tolerate
the higher rate and move on. But using this approach to attract new
customers says a lot about this compnay. I for one will not do business with
them.


author: Keith R. Williams

text:
In article <yoSl8.16961$[email]>,
[email] says...

Transfer the account and get over it!  Sheesh, what a whiner!

You can transfer shares too.  Amazing these computers.

Ok, you've learned a lesson (TANSTAAFL).  So what if you had to
pay for the lesson.  I use eshwab for my wife's IRA, only because
I trust them.  I pay bunches-o-bucks per trade, but I don't do
that many.  I'd prefer not to put money with a newbie brokerage.
...but that's me.

----
  Keith


author: SteveR

text:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 02:23:26 GMT, "Joe" <[email]> wrote:

Nonsense.  Just have your new provider transfer the contents of your
account to them.  It's done all the time.

SteveR


text:
"SteveR" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
cost

What nonsense? I am talking about closing the account not transferring the
account.

The last time I trasferred my account from a big brokerage company to
another, I have to pay $75 for the transfer fee. $75 may seem little amount
for you, but not me.


text:
Another note about tranfering brokerage account: during the time the account
is being transfered, you cannot trade. If you have stocks that go down alot
during that time, you cannot do anything but watch and suffer. It's not as
simple a decision as that.

"SteveR" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
cost


subject: Needed Company Drivers, and Owner Operators

text:
Looking for good drivers. Contact our office either by phone or
email

[email]

or

972-263-7902 ext. 120

located in Irving, Texas (Dallas-Ft. Worth)

97-2000 Freightliner Conventionals
53' Curtainside Vans

Driver's out most 7-14 days with liberal home time.
Passenger Policy available


author: Peter

subject: Re: Needed Company Drivers, and Owner Operators

text:
<cherry_wine2@*spamproof*yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You have to tell me more than this to peak my interest :)

Good luck with the search.

Pete


author: Mark Jones

text:
Seems to me there are plenty of good drivers, lack of good companies is the
problem, and with that fantastic advertisement, I am sure you must be a
dispatcher.  Can I drive for you and get those 200 mile runs, and then wait
10 hours at wal-mart to get unloaded.  please let me...I know you will get
me home every 3 weeks and treat me like you are doing me the favor..please
can I join your team.....can I
<cherry_wine2@*spamproof*yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
That's kinda how I felt but didn't quite put it that way.

Play Safe

Pete

Mark Jones <[email]> wrote in message
news:8WI47.92829$[email]...
the
wait


author: [redacted]

text:
Evidently just jump on the band wagon. Since it was my first time
posting in this group, etc. I didn't want to over burden everyone
by giving large bits of information that maybe everyone would not
want to take the time to read. Instead they could call and I
could go into  detail. And no I'm not the dispatcher, I'm the
Operations Manager, but I have also dispatched and I do have 19
years over the road as well.
Company is very small, we have a fleet of 60 trucks, which
includes 10 owner operators. Our average time out from Texas is 6
- 10 days MAX. We run all 48 states and once in a blue moon the
Canadian Provinces. Average length of run is about 850 miles. We
don't haul for Wal-Mart or KMart either. And don't accept loads
with more than 3 stops or pickups which is still rare for us to
have more than one stop. We very seldom unload, as I stated
before we have curtainside trailers. We haul mainly flatbed
freight, we do however strap or chain, but we don't have to tarp
:) We  pay the same loaded or empty as well. We also pay layover.
Thanks for your help.
Have a beautiful day!

On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:35:40 -0700, "Peter"
<[email]> wrote:


author: "Joseph 'Anonymous' Howe"

subject: Cop shop adventures....and "on the job training"....hehehe!

text:
By Dick Foster
     Rocky Mountain News Southern Bureau
     -----------------------------------------------------------

CORTEZ -- Authorities think two Durango men and their alleged
Dove Creek ringleader are responsible for killing a police
officer and wounding two others.

Arrest warrants were issued Tuesday, but that brought
police no closer to the men themselves.

The trio continued to elude an army of searchers in the arid
canyon country of southwest Colorado. Officer Dale Claxton was
killed Friday in a hail of bullets from automatic weapons
Friday when he stopped a stolen truck in Cortez. His funeral
is today.

Two Montezuma sheriff's deputies were wounded in an ensuing
chase, which ended with the killers -- three people wearing
camouflage clothing and masks -- escaping into the rugged
wilderness near the Utah border.

The warrants charge Alan L. "Monte" Pilon, 30, of Dove
Creek, and Robert Matthew Mason, 26, and Jason Wayne
McVean, 26, both of Durango, with first-degree murder of a
peace officer, first-degree assault and aggravated motor
vehicle theft.

Pilon's mother proclaimed her son's innocence, but said
she hadn't seen him since May 25.

Police Chief Roy Lane described Pilon as having anti-government
sentiments and said he probably is the trio's ringleader.

Pilon owed the Internal Revenue Service $1,500, which
might have been the catalyst for the group's violent
rampage last Friday, Lane said.

 "He was having difficulty with the IRS, and because of
that was expressing anti-government views," Lane said.

{{{{That the same IRS which just couldn't wait to audit
    Paula Corbin Jones because she filed a lawsuit against
    "Slick Willie"?  That the same IRS that admitted they
    were auditing  Joseph Farah because of his reporting of
    Clinton Scandals?  That the same IRS that audited
    Billy Dale after he testified before the U.S. Senate
    regarding the "travelgate scandal"?  Thought so!}}}}}
McVean is an experienced survivalist who lives in the
outdoors for "two or three months at a time" between brief
stays at his parents' home, Lane said. McVean and Mason
are "lifelong friends" who grew up together in Durango,
the chief said.

McVean was employed as a laborer in Durango and Mason as a
bricklayer.

The two men met Pilon after he moved to Durango to find
work, and the three "were constantly together over the
past couple of years," Lane said.

Lane said the three men disappeared simultaneously last
Wednesday.

A tip Tuesday from the girlfriend of one man provided
essential information that led to the arrest warrants.
Lane would not identify the woman.

Search warrants were executed Wednesday afternoon at homes
of the three men and their families.

Beverly Pilon of Dove Creek said Tuesday afternoon that
her son is innocent.

 "It's not like Monte, and you can ask anybody in our
little town," she said.

 "I know they named him, but they don't know for sure
because they haven't seen him."

Lane said that despite Pilon's anti-government sentiments,
the three have not been linked to militia groups so far.

{{And won't be....because your snitches can't penetrate
  small cells!}}}}

And Lane still had no explanation for their theft of a
water truck from Ignacio, east of Durango, which set off
the fatal chain of events Friday morning.

It was Claxton, the first symbol of authority the trio
encountered, who became their target after the truck was
stolen.

When Claxton stopped them on the east side of Cortez, the
men jumped from the truck and fired 18 shots into
Claxton's car from automatic rifles, killing him
instantly.

They stole another truck at gunpoint a short distance
away, and with one of them standing on the truckbed behind
the cab, "sprayed everything in their path with automatic
rifle fire," Lane said.

The shots struck six other pursuing patrol cars and
wounded two deputies. The men drove west up McElmo Canyon,
then north, about 5 miles past Hovenweep National
Monument, where they abandoned the truck and fled on foot
into arid canyon country.

Police found two assault rifles and a duffle bag filled
with military ammunition in the truck.

Lane said at least one of the rifles had been purchased in
southwestern Colorado.

An army of nearly 300 searchers from 35 law enforcement
agencies tracked the men throughout the weekend, and by
Monday were northeast of U.S. 666 between Dove Creek and
Cahone. By Tuesday they had returned to an area southwest
of the highway, west of Cahone.

 "We found human waste and new tracks back down south on
Monday," Lane said.

Now, though, the three sets of tracks had become two, and
searchers have no idea what happened to the third man.

{{This isn't hard:  It's called dropping off one man to
  snipe the trail.  Be glad you weren't within an hour or
  two behind them.}}}}

Lane was at a loss to explain how the men, even with
McVean's skills, could elude the legion of searchers for
five days while managing to survive in the punishing heat
and sun without water or other provisions.

{{It's called "escape & evasion".  It's a skill they teach
  in the Military, which Willy Clinton despises so much.}}

 "It's amazing to me that they've been able to stay out
there as long as they have. And I believe they're out
there," he said.

The canyon country is thick with piï¿½on-juniper, arroyos
and caves, and is extremely difficult to search.

 "One guy disappeared out here a few years ago and wasn't
found for 28 months. He finally turned himself in," said
City Manager Bill Ray.

Lane also thinks the men "are still as heavily armed now
as they were Friday morning."

Claxton's funeral this morning is expected to draw Gov.
Roy Romer and hundreds of law enforcement officers from
throughout the Four Corners region.

Lane said the search will continue "for at least two more
days" at this level, using dozens of ground teams,
National Guard helicopters and tracking dogs. Romer has
made National Guard troops available to relieve the
searchers.

 "We'll have to sit down and make a determination when or
how many to bring in," Lane said.

Staff Writers Carla Crowder and John Sanko contributed to
this report.

     June 3, 1998

.


author: OWENS

subject: Re: Cop shop adventures....and "on the job training"....hehehe!

text:
It is unconscienably to murder innocent peace officers. This is not what
militia is about.
These individuals, if they had any assications with any militia, did not
represent any patriotic group in this heinous action.
Is it too paranoid to think that the idiot elements of some branch of
our government did this deed to defame patriotic Americans? The law
enforcement community is one of the largest constituents of the militia
movement.
No one would leave his weapon unless forced to do so. These weapons were
meant to be found!  There has not been published any reason, supposed or
fact, for this attrocity.
So now if you wear camo you may be suspected of being a potential
murderer?

Joseph 'Anonymous' Howe wrote:

}      By Dick Foster
}      Rocky Mountain News Southern Bureau
}      -----------------------------------------------------------
}
} CORTEZ -- Authorities think two Durango men and their alleged
} Dove Creek ringleader are responsible for killing a police
} officer and wounding two others.
}
} Arrest warrants were issued Tuesday, but that brought
} police no closer to the men themselves.
}
} The trio continued to elude an army of searchers in the arid
} canyon country of southwest Colorado. Officer Dale Claxton was
} killed Friday in a hail of bullets from automatic weapons
} Friday when he stopped a stolen truck in Cortez. His funeral
} is today.
}
} Two Montezuma sheriff's deputies were wounded in an ensuing
} chase, which ended with the killers -- three people wearing
} camouflage clothing and masks -- escaping into the rugged
} wilderness near the Utah border.
}
} The warrants charge Alan L. "Monte" Pilon, 30, of Dove
} Creek, and Robert Matthew Mason, 26, and Jason Wayne
} McVean, 26, both of Durango, with first-degree murder of a
} peace officer, first-degree assault and aggravated motor
} vehicle theft.
}
} Pilon's mother proclaimed her son's innocence, but said
} she hadn't seen him since May 25.
}
} Police Chief Roy Lane described Pilon as having anti-government
} sentiments and said he probably is the trio's ringleader.
}
} Pilon owed the Internal Revenue Service $1,500, which
} might have been the catalyst for the group's violent
} rampage last Friday, Lane said.
}
}  "He was having difficulty with the IRS, and because of
} that was expressing anti-government views," Lane said.
}
} {{{{That the same IRS which just couldn't wait to audit
}     Paula Corbin Jones because she filed a lawsuit against
}     "Slick Willie"?  That the same IRS that admitted they
}     were auditing  Joseph Farah because of his reporting of
}     Clinton Scandals?  That the same IRS that audited
}     Billy Dale after he testified before the U.S. Senate
}     regarding the "travelgate scandal"?  Thought so!}}}}}
} McVean is an experienced survivalist who lives in the
} outdoors for "two or three months at a time" between brief
} stays at his parents' home, Lane said. McVean and Mason
} are "lifelong friends" who grew up together in Durango,
} the chief said.
}
} McVean was employed as a laborer in Durango and Mason as a
} bricklayer.
}
} The two men met Pilon after he moved to Durango to find
} work, and the three "were constantly together over the
} past couple of years," Lane said.
}
} Lane said the three men disappeared simultaneously last
} Wednesday.
}
} A tip Tuesday from the girlfriend of one man provided
} essential information that led to the arrest warrants.
} Lane would not identify the woman.
}
} Search warrants were executed Wednesday afternoon at homes
} of the three men and their families.
}
} Beverly Pilon of Dove Creek said Tuesday afternoon that
} her son is innocent.
}
}  "It's not like Monte, and you can ask anybody in our
} little town," she said.
}
}  "I know they named him, but they don't know for sure
} because they haven't seen him."
}
} Lane said that despite Pilon's anti-government sentiments,
} the three have not been linked to militia groups so far.
}
} {{And won't be....because your snitches can't penetrate
}   small cells!}}}}
}
} And Lane still had no explanation for their theft of a
} water truck from Ignacio, east of Durango, which set off
} the fatal chain of events Friday morning.
}
} It was Claxton, the first symbol of authority the trio
} encountered, who became their target after the truck was
} stolen.
}
} When Claxton stopped them on the east side of Cortez, the
} men jumped from the truck and fired 18 shots into
} Claxton's car from automatic rifles, killing him
} instantly.
}
} They stole another truck at gunpoint a short distance
} away, and with one of them standing on the truckbed behind
} the cab, "sprayed everything in their path with automatic
} rifle fire," Lane said.
}
} The shots struck six other pursuing patrol cars and
} wounded two deputies. The men drove west up McElmo Canyon,
} then north, about 5 miles past Hovenweep National
} Monument, where they abandoned the truck and fled on foot
} into arid canyon country.
}
} Police found two assault rifles and a duffle bag filled
} with military ammunition in the truck.
}
} Lane said at least one of the rifles had been purchased in
} southwestern Colorado.
}
} An army of nearly 300 searchers from 35 law enforcement
} agencies tracked the men throughout the weekend, and by
} Monday were northeast of U.S. 666 between Dove Creek and
} Cahone. By Tuesday they had returned to an area southwest
} of the highway, west of Cahone.
}
}  "We found human waste and new tracks back down south on
} Monday," Lane said.
}
} Now, though, the three sets of tracks had become two, and
} searchers have no idea what happened to the third man.
}
} {{This isn't hard:  It's called dropping off one man to
}   snipe the trail.  Be glad you weren't within an hour or
}   two behind them.}}}}
}
} Lane was at a loss to explain how the men, even with
} McVean's skills, could elude the legion of searchers for
} five days while managing to survive in the punishing heat
} and sun without water or other provisions.
}
} {{It's called "escape & evasion".  It's a skill they teach
}   in the Military, which Willy Clinton despises so much.}}
}
}  "It's amazing to me that they've been able to stay out
} there as long as they have. And I believe they're out
} there," he said.
}
} The canyon country is thick with piï¿½on-juniper, arroyos
} and caves, and is extremely difficult to search.
}
}  "One guy disappeared out here a few years ago and wasn't
} found for 28 months. He finally turned himself in," said
} City Manager Bill Ray.
}
} Lane also thinks the men "are still as heavily armed now
} as they were Friday morning."
}
} Claxton's funeral this morning is expected to draw Gov.
} Roy Romer and hundreds of law enforcement officers from
} throughout the Four Corners region.
}
} Lane said the search will continue "for at least two more
} days" at this level, using dozens of ground teams,
} National Guard helicopters and tracking dogs. Romer has
} made National Guard troops available to relieve the
} searchers.
}
}  "We'll have to sit down and make a determination when or
} how many to bring in," Lane said.
}
} Staff Writers Carla Crowder and John Sanko contributed to
} this report.
}
}      June 3, 1998
}
} .


author: Wugga

text:
}Is it too paranoid to think that the idiot elements of some branch of
}our government did this deed to defame patriotic Americans?

I wouldn't underestimate anyone's capacity for being mis-guided all on his own.

Wugga
______________________________________________
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this
account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."  Abraham
Lincoln, General Orders 100, April 24, 1863.


author: server not recognized

subject: Re: Soft for sale

text:
You ARE kidding right.  I've been warning all this time and you say I was
right??!!

Incredible.  Who would have thought sending money to a registered swiss bank
account for software emanating from russia with no permanent address,
anonymous servers, forged email headers, multiple proxy servers and accounts
could have turned out to be a losing situation.
Why do the ruskies do it?  Because a months salary for an engineer is $100.
Just a couple of really stupid westerners and they atre loaded with $2000.
Imagine how wealthy you'd feel with twenty times your salary tax free.
That's why.

And do they feel guilty not sending anything or caring.?  HEY! You were
trying to rip the original software vendor off yourself.  So they think
servers you right.  In a perverse way they think that justifies their
activity.

Thay are still criminals, theives and crooks (and gangsters) though.

P

John <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...


author: OC

subject: co-sleeping single mom/son - is 6 too old?

text:
I have been dating this woman who I recently discovered sleeps in the same
bed as her 6 year old son.  They also shower together sometimes, and she
walks around the house naked around him whenever its convenient for her.
She's been divorced since her son was born, and I haven't been able to
determine if her son sleeps with his father when he's at his father's house.
They also shower together sometimes, and she walks around the house naked
around him whenever its convenient for her.  She never breast fed him, and
I'm really concerned about this because of his age, it just seems REALLY
wierd to me and it doesn't look like they intend on changing either.  What
do the "experts" say?  Am I asking for trouble trying to get involved with
this family?

Thanks,
BB


author: Jenrose

subject: Re: co-sleeping single mom/son - is 6 too old?

text:
We're an all-girl house right now, but I don't even notice when I'm naked
around my child. She co-slept until she was 4-5 ish and came to bed in the
middle of the night for a while after that. She grew out of it, and I let
her.

In our family, our rule is that nudity around the house stops when *anyone*
in the family is uncomfortable with it, although *no one* can make me put my
clothes on in my own bedroom--if they come in, they get what they
get....lol! When my fiance is over, we have many more restrictions about
nudity than we do when he's not over, but it's usually just *her* nudity and
*his* nudity, not mine. She's nine years old.

At six, he's just getting to a point where he's going to start being aware
of things. If the son has expressed discomfort or embarrasment with the
situation, it should probably stop. If he hasn't, you've no business as an
outsider criticizing.

But my guess is neither of them think much about it either way, because
that's just how it's always been. Many cultures don't fuss about clothes
anywhere near as much as we do.

You could, potentially, *make* it into a problem for the boy, creating
embarrassment where there is none.

If *you* are uncomfortable with it and thinking about getting more involved
with her, talk to her *privately* about your concerns and questions.

Jenrose
"OC" <[email]> wrote in message
news:at6buu$cqo$[email]...
house.


author: misty

text:
No... I have 3 boys..9, 5 and almost 2.  The 9 yo. generally sleeps in
his own bed.. the 5 yo. switches between sleeping with me or sleeping
with his dad (DH has a waterbed and I can't sleep on it anymore..more
than 2 nights and my back is a wreck).. the 2 yo. still night nurses so
he's where ever I am.  The 9 yo will on occasion ask to snuggle in with
the baby and I... crowded but very comforting knowing he's there :-)

As far as bathing together.. I haven't bathed by myself for 9
years..well maybe a time or 2 here and there <g>  The baby gets in when
the water runs.  Pretty soon the door opens, "someone" goes to the
bathroom..suddenly the shower door opens...naked 5 yo smiles and jumps
in..the 9 yo only comes in if he's _really_ feeling lonesome in the
livingroom LOL.

(I always hear "da duhn, da duhn, dadadadadadadada" in my mind once I
feel the cold draft of the bathroom door opening.)

We all walk around naked after bathing or while getting dressed in the
morning...if it's warm enough.  Well, not DH, he was raised Catholic and
has nudie taboos..but he's getting more relaxed as he gets older. Since
I have nursed all 3..they see boobs all the time..and it's no big deal.

Now if this was a big deal to the other kid..I'm sure he would find ways
to let his mom know.  But if he was raised this way..it wouldn't be a
"shock".

~misty


author: Nikki

text:
I am that woman and I feel I must clarify some things. He didn't just
discover that I sleep with my child he has known it for over 2 years.
We do not shower together ever and I do not walk around naked in front
of my son whenever it is convenient for me. I am a hardworking single
mom and I have no help here at home. I cannot lock my son out of the
bathroom when I take a bath or shower  because there is noone to watch
him. He is coming of age and he wants privacy more and more every day
so I'm not worried about him never wanting to leave my bed.

"OC" <[email]> wrote in message news:<at6buu$cqo$[email]>...


author: Greg Hanson

text:
Does this boyfriend have some axe to grind?
Is it a power and control thing or what?


text:
Beware of Child Protective Services.
Whether it's legal or not,
Whether it's improper or not,
Whether it's bad or not,

Your state's CPS agency will
act on "attitude", tell LIES
to their Judge, remove the child,
presume everything good to be evil,
and generally grind you up in
their witch hunt.

They won't even rely on any written
standards, no rules, just the attitude
of the accuser.

Get a lawyer NOW, before CPS workers show
up at your door trying to con their
way into your home to look for
dirt you never imagined they could
use against you.  Don't let them in
without a warrant, and make sure it is
signed by a real judge.

Don't trust your OWN lawyer.
Public Pretender or paid, there is a huge
problem with their country club relationship
with judges and attorneys for the other side.
Many will give you a 10 minute rush to
"stipulate" right outside the courtrom and
without any REAL consultation about the
pros and cons of stipulation.  Never* stipulate.
Don't let them stipulate FOR you, in any sense.
Make that very clear.  Stipulation is a guilty
plea, and CPS often promise the carrot on the
stick (swift return of child) if you do, but
severely change their tune later after they
own you.

Go to CPSWATCH.COM and read up on the
Tricks of the Trade, and spend several
hours reading everything else on the web
about CPS agency abuse of families.

Use FreeLaw, Lawcheck, or some other
free legal search on the web to look
up Wallis vs. Escondido and Wallis
vs. Spencer.  Interesting because the
tipster was a psycho in a locked ward,
and the tip was of course bogus, but
that didn't stop CPS.  They removed the
children, dredged for garbage, found
nothing of consequence, but it still*
went on and on, the children had their
privates examined for sexual abuse, etc.

The boyfriend has apparently already
begun the process of stretching the
truth, regarding showering together
and nudity in the house.  That is minor
compared to the LIES and exaggeration
that CPS will come up with if they get
involved.  Is it possible that the
boyfriend has some other reason for
wanting to grind you up?
Do not let him blackmail you using this.
Get away from him based because he lied.

There are several standards for when
something like your situation is wrong.
One standard says that if the child and
you are not uncomfortable with it, that
it's OK.  On the other end of the scale
you have the Church Lady from Saturday
Night Live that sees devils everywhere.
Expect bashing like this on the web.
There are other standards, like what
psychologists and therapists would use
to decide if it was improper.

I have had terrible lies and unwritten rules
used to tear my family apart.  People who
are not fit to wash your socks will sit in
judgement of you and tell you what to do,
even in areas that are not theirs to say.
If you look up THEIR records you will often
find some interesting dirt.  I did.
They like to play God.
They think they are saving children.
God save us from people with good intentions.
God save us from godless people who believe
in their cause of saving children even
if it kills the children.
They do not follow the credo "Do no harm.".

Know that you are not alone.

Prepare for the real Big Bad Wolf to appear
at your door.


author: Tine Andersen

text:
"misty" <[email]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email]...
Sounds quite normal to me - but after all - I live in Denmark, Scandinavia,
and everyone knows we walk naked around in the streets :-)

It's all a question of culture, I think

Tine


author: bobb

text:
"Greg Hanson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

No. It's a hysterical reaction to our present sexual revolution.   Instead
of beleiving there is a caring  relationship it's easier to see  something
sinister.

bobb


author: OSO

text:
Thanx for your input.  I have seen this in my own family.  Happily not my
imediate family.  It was a physical abuse charge of the parents when the
child and all the witnesses at the park said he fell from a a swing.  The
two older children vouched for this as well, and...........they were sent
home with the mom and dad.  I was incredulous.  I thought if one is in
danger wouldn't they all?  In any case the youngest child was finally
returned to the parents.  Thank God.

Regards,
OSO

"Greg Hanson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

<Snipped for brevity>


author: Dan Sullivan

text:
"bobb" <[email]> wrote in message
news:atjmde$gr8$[email]...

Would it be considered a caring relationship in your opinion if a
non-related adult male forced a six year old girl to take cold showers as
discipline for wetting her pants?

Is it a power and control thing?

Or something more sinister/sick?

Dan


text:
You notice he didn't mention LAW.

Complete NON-ISSUE.
Dan has some sick idea that Step Dads
are not real parents, and that they
are supposed to HIDE from parenting
because they are not blood kin.
This is not supported in law.
It is not supported in Social Work
literature.

Dan can't even get the childs age right.

Nice, warm showers were used initially,
but they had the unintended effect of
encouraging even MORE urination.

Which was the result of a kid so extremely
psyched up about school activities that
she didn't want to miss a thing while in
the bathroom.  It was a concious choice to
push the limits of her bladder, which of
course often lead to "accidents".  Dan
wishes to gore me, so he LIES and
mischaracterizes the urination as the result
of something sinister, which it was not.

By the way, the cold showers were short,
just to wash the urine from her skin.

This does not meet any* legal definition
of child abuse.

The only sickness about this is in Dan's
interpretation.

Dan used to pretend that he was for parents
and against CPS, but he was kicked out of
his local VOCAL group.  He claims some big
reputation for (in his mind) beating CPS.
Sometimes he says 5 and sometimes he says
15 times he fended them off.  Sounds good
until you find out that he NEVER had a child
removed from his home, ever.  He was NEVER
accused in Juvenile Court, but he's full of
advice on how to surrender to CPS and do
everything they ask, because they are right
and as a parent, you are presumed guilty by
the system.  Dan is even more prejudicial.

Dan is not in here fighting to help parents.
He seems to function as an agent for the
big meat grinder known as Child Protection.

He mocks Constitutional Rights.
He shrugs off blatant violations of them.
He encourages winning through cooperation,
which seems to favor guilty parents, but
he can't understand why innocent parents
don't appreciate his winning by submission
tactics.  He presumes guilt, just like CPS.

Most of the people who are pro-parent and
anti-CPS had kids removed or saw it happen
to somebody near to them.  It's easy to
understand how they developed their negative
attitude toward CPS.  Dan on the other hand,
claims he fended off CPS X times, but his
negative attitude more resembles the one
that many caseworkers have, from within the
CPS system, and trying to resist the feeling
that their entire agency is basically evil.

If, As Dan claims, he fended off CPS 15 times,
then you have to ask yourself why he would
presume a parent guilty, base his attacks on
his sick puritanical prudish attitude about
nakedness and non-sexual contact.

You'd think somebody who fended off 15 bogus
attacks from CPS would be much more
conservative and expect CPS to justify each
and every little petty legal point or drop
the lies.

But here's Dan, and his cronies who are NOT
in favor of parents, trying to dig at me by
portraying innocence as lurid.

Him and his ilk on here stand out with their
demeanor like schoolground bullies, teasing
some kid over some petty difference.

Kane seems like Dan's potty mouthed alternate
personality.  When Dan and Ron get heated up
on an issue, ask yourself what their motivation
is.

Ask yourself why Dan feels compelled to
repeatedly put me on trial here for his
idiosyncratic attitudes about nudity
that are not supported by law or literature.

Dan favors CPS and Foster Parents.
If they do anything involving the very
SAME situations, he sees nothing wrong with it.


text:
"Dan Sullivan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:VkQL9.64686$[email]...
Instead
something
So, you wanna change the equation, huh?  The original post was not about a
non-related adult male forcing a six year old to take a cold shower for
wetting her pants.

It's my opinon tht a non-related adult should not punish the children of
another except, perhaps, with the approval and consent of the biological
parent.

I don't necessairly object to the shower but I do object to the non-related
adult being present.

As for it being a power or control issue...  I object to the context.
Getting a kid to pick up toys, cut the grass, or even run to the store and
an excercise of power/control but is not viewed as harmful. Change the
context or the intent of those chores, and read the mind of the adult, it
could be looked upon as power/control as harmful. Do as I say or get a
bare-assed beating, or get deprived of food, or sleep.. or whatever.  Words
such as power/control/abuse can be used to inflame and incit when taken out
of context... and a poplulation is easily misled.. as we can see here.

bobb


text:
...and others.

"Greg Hanson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
"Greg Hanson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

So what?

We're talking about a caring relationship.

Who are you to decide what are issues and what aren't?

I'm setting the parameters.

YOU aren't a stepfather to the little girl.

And a REAL step-parent has a very precarious position in their new family.

Ex; they should refrain from the disciplining of their stepchildren for at
least two years after becoming part of the family.

And even after two years they're walking a fine line between what's right
and what's right but's gonna turn out wrong as far as the disciplining of
their stepchildren goes.

A six year old girl should have her privacy respected by her father and her
stepfather.

And anyone who's NOT RELATED (like you) should especially mind his own
business.

And you can call what you did "parenting," I would use a more appropriate
term.

NOW you can use a LEGAL term.

Common sense should prevail.

What isn't?

Does a year one way or the other make a difference?

Or do you just get hot for girls after they turn seven?

OH this is new!

And the warm showers were "encouraging" the little girl to wet her pants
MORE?

HOW did you come to that conclusion?

What happened to her regular (warm) showers?

Did you switch them to cold showers to discourage her from wetting her pants
too?

Actually YOU didn't want to miss anything while in the bathroom.

SHE didn't want to miss anything by going to the bathroom.

So why would you want to discipline a little girl for being excited about
school activities?

A heart to heart talk between the little girl and her mother should have
been the solution of choice.

And if that didn't work maybe a behavioral specialist.

I can't believe anyone thought a cold shower would be the solution to the
problem.

So far YOU started with warm showers and then you switched to cold showers.

What were you gonna use after cold showers, a mouthful of red pepper like
whatsisname's punishment?

Not what you said before, Greg.

You said the cold showers were for discipline.

Maltreatment. Emotional neglect.

Just the dehumanizing treatment of a child.

I believe a number of people have an opinion similar to mine.

Not true and you know it, Greg.

But go ahead and say it if it makes you feel better.

15+ investigations, five founded, and all five reversed on appeal.

The first one with an attny, the rest by myself.

Have you gotten to #1, Greg?

Once a petition alleging molestation by CPS and once a child abuse petition
without CPS involvement.

The first one was thrown out of court and the second the petition was
withdrawn.

And I was charged with a VOP in criminal court and the ADA dropped the
charge.

Not true and you know it, Greg.

But go ahead and say it if it makes you feel better.

Not true and you know it, Greg.

Then why did I challenge all the founded determinations they made against
me?

AND WIN, DIPSTICK!!!!!

Prove it.

Sure I am.

I help people who didn't maltreat their children.

And I help people who did maltreat their children but admit their mistake.

And then unfortunately there's the parents ( and non-parents like you, Greg)
who can't acknowledge that they made a mistake.

They just can't seem to focus on what has to be done for reunification.

Not true and you know it, Greg.

But go ahead and say it if it makes you feel better.

When? Where?

The name of the game is to get the child(ren) home asap.

Fight the Constitutional battles after the children come home.

While the children are in FC is NOT the time.

See here you are not knowing what you're talking about again.

"Guilty" refers to a criminal case, NOT a family court case.

And actually what I advise favors the parents who didn't maltreat their
children just as much.

You might call it winning by participation, rather than prolonging by
confrontation the child's stay in FC.

Tho there are exceptions I imagine.

If someone never did anything wrong (like myself) I'll go to bat for them
100%.

For ex, Ricky Thompson's brother Carl and his family.

A woman from upstate NY who just got her two kids back. ( a VOCAL email BTW
started me working with her)

And a bunch of people from the Long Island area who had their founded
decisions reversed.

And some people who I've guided thru a CPS investigation without getting
founded.

And on the other hand let's not forget Jennifer.

No doubt.

Which is what?

What is?


author: sherman

text:
"Step Dad" ???   Oh, you married to the orphan's Mommy?    Are you paying
child support too?  Sherm.

"Greg Hanson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
"bobb" <[email]> wrote in message
news:atr4g5$6nf$[email]...
as

We took a little turn.

As I've posted before even a true stepparent shouldn't be involved in the
disciplining of their new stepchild for at least two years.

non-related

As do I.

And I also think there were many alternatives to the cold shower that should
have been explored first.

Sure.

Sure.

Words
out

Or not misled as the case may be.

Dan


text:
[email] (Kane) wrote:

                               PLONK


author: John M. Sulak

subject: USA is #1, passing South Africa in 1989 (prisoners per capita)

text:
"Remember the outcry when former UN Ambassador Andrew Young told the world
that the US had more political prisoners than any other nation? Isn't it
interesting that in 1985 the US incarcerated a larger percentage of its
people than any country in the world except South Africa, and in 1989 the
US surpassed South Africa and is now the world's leading prison state?
President Bush, in his great drug policy speech of September 5, 1989,
promised to double the federal prison population again, after it had been
doubled under Reagan. Aren't you proud?"

The above quote is from the 1990 edition of the book, _The Emperor Has No
Clothes_ by Jack Herer (available from 5632 Van Nuys Blvd, Van Nuys, CA
91401, USA) as excerpted by May 1990 issue of High Times. HT is full of
offensive (to me) pictures of drugs and "how to get high" discussions, but
ironically, they seem to have the most clear-headed and comprehensive
coverage of the drug wars. I just feel like the guy who buys Playboy to
read the articles and not to look at the pictures. :-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Drug War "body counts":                                               ^
^     * USA has highest per capita incarceration rate in the world.     ^
^     * 1 of 3 state prisoners is a non-violent drug possessor/dealer   ^
^     * 1 of 4 young Black men is/was a prisoner                        ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ "The war on drugs is a war on Americans and a war on the Constitution.^
^ It must be stopped." David Nolan, Libertarian Party, "Defenders of    ^
^ Liberty", Washington DC, 1-800-682-1776                               ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Standard Disclaimer: These may not be my opinions, my employer's opinions,
a devil's advocate's opinions, or anyone else's opinions. Are they opinions?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


author: David Casseres

subject: Re: USA is #1, passing South Africa in 1989 (prisoners per capita)

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (John M. Sulak) writes:

And for every 3 drug busts made by the Coast Guard, they have to
discipline one of their own men for drug offenses... Go figger.

David Casseres
     Exclaimer:  Hey!


author: Mark Sobolewski

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David Casseres) writes:

    *That's* nothing!  I was watching Drug Fuhrer Bennett on C-Span
a couple days ago and he mentioned the interesting statistic that
drug *use* is down, but drug *abuse* is up...

    What this means is that current policy has curbed relatively harmless
marijuana usage and replaced it with the stereotypical crack killer (etc)
If I wanted to justify a police state by making a problem worse, this
would definitly be the means for doing it!

    But I think most of us know what Bennetts "ideal" society is, now
don't we?


author: jack schmidling

text:
PRISONERS PER CAPITA

 The following is excerpted from the  Apr issue of the
 Washington Report........

 Israel's President Chaim Herzog claims Israel has the
 highest number of prisoners per capita and the most densely
 populated jails in the world.

 Herzog noted that Israel has 150 prisoners per 100,000
 inhabitants, not including security prisoners.  Israeli
 prisoners average 2 to 3 square yards of space compared to
 19 in the U S.


author: saungmun

subject: want the notebook computers (laptops)

text:
$)CHi!
my name is Saungmun Park, and my nationality is Korea.
I am living in Seoul Korea.
I was graduated from Yonsei university and now running the international
trade company.
We are dealing semiconductor, memory chips and computer parts.
I write this message on the news groups,  in order to develop the market by
cooperating with you.
if you are interested in my suggestion, please contact me.
In these days, I have the project to import and sell the notebooks,
if you have the products that are reasonable price.
I need the notebook computers (laptops).
If you have the catalogue of notebook computers(laptops), would you send
me.

Fax 82- 2- 889 -8959
[email]


author: Skip Press

subject: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Saw Attack of the Clones today with my family and it occurred to me that
part of the appeal of Star Wars to people -- other than pure
entertainment, magnificent tableaus, and great battle scenes -- is that
it fills a current spiritual void in society.

Lucas purposely followed Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces"
matrix, which was written after Campbell studied all the world's great
myths and religions. Campbell met Krishnamurti ("Life is what happens to
you while you're busy making other plans") early in his career, and he
spent some time with Jung in Switzerland. At the end, he was not
terribly friendly to Christianity, and somewhat disdainful of the Christ
story, drawing attention to the fact that the same story appeared in
other cultures long before Jerusalem 0 A.D. Campbell was friendly to
Buddhism and if he had to be classified my guess is he would've said he
was Buddhist. You see this questioning of the Christ story in Anakin's
birth story in the last movie. My guess is Lucas will simply leave that
one hanging because he's scared to go further with it.

You see a lot of Oriental influences in the costumes in the Clones movie
and in the Anakin/Amidala love scenes, the continuing romantic vision of
life that existed in the "belle epoque" at the turn of the 20th century,
which Lucas purposely romanticized in the "Young Indiana Jones" TV
series. That time period covered the same formative years of Campbell,
starting with his viewing of Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show as a kid and
his love of Native American lore.

Now we have a world called Earth, 21st century, in which radical Muslims
are launched on a jihad and determined to kill all Jews, and America,
the strongest Christian nation ever. At the same time, the corruption in
the American Catholic church, with its dogma and pompousness, is causing
that institution to fall to pieces. Against this backdrop, not many
Americans are truly religious, a situation that allows made-up b.s.
cults like $cientology to fill the void in the lives of people who have
no direction. (I was there once myself.)

I think that to a large degree Star Wars offers a spiritual hope to the
majority of fans. The idea that there actually could be Jedi appeals to
people. Noble monks who care little for possessions, who develop amazing
physical abilities like the legendary Shaolin of China, are great role
models. They tap into and develop The Force, a spiritual connectedness
among all things that seems to be borne whole-cloth out of the "web of
gems" spoken about by Buddha. And they are experts at telekinesis as
well. Not a bad set of qualities.

It's obvious where Lucas lifted all these ideas -- probably not an
original one in the lot -- but I don't fault him for doing so, because
he weaves a thoroughly entertaining tapestry. I simply think he's made a
few billion dollars with these tales because he came along at the right
time and is filling a void he might not have ever complated, starting
out. It's not that the Force is with him, it's that a lot of people want
a Force to be with, and they want it to be with them, as well. For two
hours each time there's a Star Wars movie, they have that Force.


author: blair[no spam]@world.std.com (Blair P. Houghton

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Skip Press  <[email]> wrote:

Spiritual void?

In *this* society?

People worship everything from six-armed death gods to
chicks with giant fake boobs.

Sometimes they even worship the sound of their own money
piling up.

So the idea that George Lucas would be "filling" anything
rather than "usurping" or "confusing" or "projecting" his
own spirituality on moviegoers is absurd.

				--Blair
				  "Continue."


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Skip Press  <[email]> wrote:

Okay, let's be a little more serious about this.

No, it's not a void.  It's a system of continuous
consumption capable of excess consumption.  It's like
eating and breathing.  Stop, and you start to feel ill.
Get more than you need, and you might not notice.

Unfortunately, unlike eating and breathing, you can
tolerate for a long time if someone gives you spirit that
is poisonous to you.  And much organized spirituality is
epidemically poisonous.  Pederast priests, bomb-making
mullahs, you get the drift.

Some get spirituality from nothing organized or deific.
Simply not knuckling under to those poisons is enough to
keep one full, at times.  Acting to help others understand
their spiritual misunderstandings is like a +100 heath bonus.

So, still being serious but now deep in the metaphor for
the purposes of shared context and effective communication:
Saying Lucas is somehow filling a void of spirituality is
like saying McDonald's fills a void of hunger.  There's no
void anywhere near any market in which McDonald's would
choose to operate.

				--Blair
				  "McNuggets to Newcastle."


author: Achtung

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I have to admit that I actually enjoyed the new film.  It took me to about
the halfway mark and then the story started to gel.  I think that you may
agree that up until that point, the Phantom Menace and the first half of the
Clones lacked continuity to the older films.  As you state in this thread,
the sudden appearance of science as an explanation for the force had no
relevance to the story.

Take Qui-Gon Jinn in the Phantom Menace for example.  Who cares about this
guy?  I'd never heard of him yet he takes up the lead role in the film.
Darth Maul is the same.  We have a protagonist and antagonist that have no
history.  It's just a couple of guys doing acrobatics.

However, at the halfway mark of Clones, we start to see the seeds of the
first three films being planted.  It is really the first time that there is
some continuity.  The Phantom Menace, if you check, doesn't even use the
Star Wars theme very often.  Yet, by the end of the Clones, we hear the
Imperial March.  Things start coming together.  The fight with Christopher
Plummer's character is a prime example of my point - there is a history with
these characters.  They battle wits and sabers.  They talk when they fight.
Maul was a dull, dull boy.

Don't get me wrong here, this film is far from perfect.  The first half of
the film just meanders along, chatting at us endlessly (did George skip the
class on exposition?).  Anakin's transformation and anger is functional but
really doesn't give us enough to totally buy into it.  Did anyone find that
the Tuscan Raiders taking his mother was kind of lame?  It served the story
but really didn't fit, it wasn't personal enough.  Killing Tuscan Raiders?
He could go darker than that.  I also wanted to see him go hog wild -
reminded me a bit of Lawrence of Arabia's attack on the Turks (story wise).

As to it filling a spiritual void in society?  I am inclined to think of it
as something that people have always desired - good vs. evil.  In the
original series the archetypes are set up brilliantly.  It plays out that
the moral and good defeat the immoral and evil.  Whether or not that is
based on spirituality is up to you to judge.  It is something that is
repeated over and over in films and the Star Wars films have played the
parts with simplicity.  I think that this is something you find in Lord of
the Rings as well.  Above the simple protagonist vs. antagonist you have
each character having to face and defeat the darkness within themselves.
Luke had to do it too.  Every character in Lord of the Rings faced it.
Anakin will face it and it will consume him.

Mark

"Skip Press" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
that is struck with the difference between what things are, and what they
ought to be.


author: Mike Kartje

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Indeed Lucas nods to Campbell's observations, as Campbell himself says
almost the ecxact same thing: that theStar Wars story offers a kind of
myth-substance to our overly-mechanized, non-theogized, and
de-humanized culture.

Check out a PBS series titled 'The Power of Myth". Filmed a few years
before his death in 1985(?), Campbell talks about ancient and modern
myths with Bill Moyers... at Lucas' Skywalker Ranch, no doubt!

Also, for those with the inclination, the book "The Power of Myth"
offers a quick read to some of the deeper aspects of Campbell's
research.

Skip Press <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: tracy

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Skip Press <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Let's hope so...

At some point, one has to get past the cult issues, even to the point of
just putting it all behind you.  I've been through the ex-cult PR wars
myself.  That's my un-asked for advice for the day.

I expect you're right.

Tracy


author: Plotner Robert Glenn

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
"Skip Press" wrote in message

Joseph Campbell's emphasis was that all spiritual traditions contain an
element of truth in that their original intention was to understand the
unseen creative power behind all things. His chief beef with the occidental
religions and mainstream Christianity is that they have moved to a
literalist interpretation of their sacred texts. They have lost their
mythology. (Not true of all forms of Christianity. Witness Celtic
Christianity for one with its emphasis on manred.) The term "Being" in
philosophical terms denotes the all-in-one completeness from which
everything is manifest. As complete in itself, it cannot be made an object.
Mythology, poetry, art, music, meditation put us in relation to the source,
allow us to come into an understanding of our own manifestation from and
ultimate identity in Being. But this is only possible if we allow ourselves
to see through them, into realizing that the structures are forms of
approach or contemplation. They are not the end in itself. If we allow the
mythology to harden into literalism, we have replaced the "way" with
idolatry, the worship of objects -- be they stones, people, or supposed
events.

The original three Star Wars movies have much more in common with Lucas'
reading of Campbell's work. Even at that, it always seems a superficial
interpretation to me. Lucas is taking the hero myths for their timeless
story qualities and only grazes the surface of the underlying truths. He
definitely does not relate at all to the great philosopher Krishnamurti who
said "No guru, no method, no teacher." Krishnamurti understood that all
religions were structure that simply complicated and obscured the truth.
That doesn't jive too well with apprentices.

In the current trilogy, it seems Lucas has lost his way completely. Instead
of the Jedi powers being sourced in realization of their identity with
timeless Being whose center is everywhere, we are given a "scientific"
explanation for their powers. They are but hosts to a telekinetic bacteria
of some kind. This echoes the scientific view that we are but containers for
selfish genes. It is a confused error because the scientific method requires
us to remain firmly in a subject-object relation in order to ask questions
and test the answers. Science cannot test Being as "it" is nondualistic and
complete. One cannot remain apart from it, see it, and test it. One ends up
making it into an object the same as literalist religions. The center cannot
be named or placed. Whatever Lucas may have earlier drawn from
philosophical/mythological models of Being (and the intuition resident in
Jung's collective unconscious) as a model for The Force has really been lost
in the need to pin it down, to explain it. In answering the koan, he has
destroyed it.

Certainly, I agree that to many fans, The Force offers great appeal in a
world groping for a relevant myth. We have an intuitive sense of connection,
and yet the world becomes more chaotic, threatening, and oblique. It moves
further and further away from connection and into mere experientialism. In a
world where all there is are those synaptic sensations, we might as well get
those nerves firing through whatever means it takes in our separate little
holes, be it chemically, biologically, etc. Get it while you can. Our world
view constantly reinforces that only the mechanism is real. In spite of what
many want The Force to be, however, the new Lucas has signed on to the same
picture. The Force of old has been replaced with explanation and obscures it
with nerve-firing, mind-blowing special effects.

Best regards,
Robert


author: Janek Czekaj

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
It has long be argued that this same void you talk of is being filled by
astrology, people hugging stones and crystals and a variety of practices
like white witchcraft, wicca, worshipping some earth mother, etc... People
seeking something to add or define meaning to their existence and in doing
so grasping at anything other than the traditional religions... I see no
reason why Star Wars, Star Trek, Batman or Spiderman would not fall into
this category.

There definitely is void, or a feeling of having taken a wrong turn
somewhere within Western Culture, and it amazes me that, as of yet, I don't
think we have yet seen the anti-Wall Street film. (Was it American Beauty -
I think not)

Janek.

"Skip Press" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
that is struck with the difference between what things are, and what they
ought to be.


author: Oranse

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
<< It's obvious where Lucas lifted all these ideas -- probably not an
original one in the lot -- >>

Gangstas gonna win again
dreams your living in.
This what you coulda been
Every city foots in,
gets scrilla with em.
Can't shorthand the dealer
the game be gorilla.
It ain't nothing illa.
A.k.a. Darth Ibis, nickname aside.
I rose to be Darkside till I die.
The official bonafide,
tested and tried.
Get in like cancer
and work from the inside.
When I arrive, eyes are wide.
Ain't that I limp when I walk
its the pimpin' to my stride.
That thing with the red light on my side.
"You will never understand the power" Jedi.
Living the life is no lie.
Been a great thing to do.
Nothing I could think, change the view.
Althought it might seem strange to you
Its plain to me
The Force is ours 2
Just wait till Episode 3

cue: Vader Theme

Oranse


author: BrickRage

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Okay, I'm with ya. But the six-armed gods? We're talking very generally here,
right?

Oh wait...I misread your post. The six-breasted death chicks got me confused.

Star Wars? I could care less.

According to the Mayan calendar, actually the *end* of the Mayan calender is
December 22, 2012.  Then poof!

Godsdamnit, that's the year I start to get Social Security.

Nesci

"Undone by luck and a weakness for blondes"  Smart Money (1931)

The FAQ for m.w.s is http://www.communicator.com/faqs.html


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I always remember something a friend of mine wrote, "We can get used to
anything. That is our blessing and our curse."

Nesci

"Undone by luck and a weakness for blondes"  Smart Money (1931)

The FAQ for m.w.s is http://www.communicator.com/faqs.html


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
blair[no spam]@world.std.com (Blair P. Houghton) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Only because of the "groupthink"  factor.  If someone could
figure out how to get rid of that, we'd be a lot better off.
But then, avoiding groups would be the way to do it.

But then that would be like....starting a group.

hehehe!  Quite true.

Tracy


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
understanding

I often wonder about this - I need to get out more - but I often wonder what
would happen if you took someone from out of the Bible, plonked them down in
front of a TV, PC or an episode of Trek and simply showed them one of those
NASA pictures of a cosmic cluster, galaxy, etc. In other words, their
understanding of the Universe, or God, was minute by our understanding today
and I wonder what effect that would have on their faith.

Similarly, I really want to bring Julius Caesar into the modern age, show
him a kettle boiling and then say "So, you conquered the known world huh,
but you can't do that!"

Janek.

"Tom Wood" <[email]> wrote in message
news:YR8G8.4$[email]...
he
die
the
chakra
understanding
working
it


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <YR8G8.4$[email]>,
 "Tom Wood" <[email]> wrote:

I agree with you on fun time to be alive, but there's that old Chinese
curse of May you live in interesting times...

I should qualify it by saying I think Campbell was antagonistic to
modern Christianity. I also don't think he believed in the virgin birth
at all. Wouldn't suprise me if he believed the story of Jesus' real
father being a Roman soldier.

Personally, I believe Christ studied in the East and was familiar with
Buddhism, and that 1st century Christianity is a whole different spirit
than the current churches, but that's just me...


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <acbr9a$ga4$[email]>,
 "Plotner Robert Glenn" <[email]> wrote:

Well, the world didn't look more chaotic, threatening, and oblique after
we walked out of the movie. I know my son and I felt like "We could be
Jedi, yes. Kick ass we could."  ;-)


author: Black Ops

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
don't
Beauty -

Maybe if we in the west all strapped a bunch of pipe bombs to our chests, we
would experience the true joy that religion can bring....

(BTW, wasn't "Wall Street" an anti-Wall Street film?  And that "Boiler Room"
movie?  I could be wrong...)


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
"Janek Czekaj" <[email]> wrote in message news:<%m%F8.18$[email]>...

or....kundalini?  That could qualify as "Force."

Maybe we aren't really anti-Wall Street yet.....

Tracy


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
BrickRage <[email]> wrote:

Someone do a genetic assay to locate the last Mayan and
see if he wants a big funeral.

By that time SSA will have been converted to the Mayan
arithmetic system, under which all the money goes to
Dick Cheney's uncle Cooter.

				--Blair
				  "No relation."


author: Ovum

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Janek (hey, how do you pronounce your last name) Czekaj writes:

Why should it have any effect on their faith?  Christianity is about your
relationship with Christ, not about your environment or technology.

Jesus underwent a much more shocking experience than mere time travel.  He was
transplanted from Heaven to Earth, which was an exponentially greater shock to
the system than it would be for a 1st-century Christian to time-travel to
21st-century America.

Jesus went from a supernatural environment where there was no fear or death, to
a place of almost 100% fear and death.  Didn't cause Him to lose His faith in
God.  On the other hand, Jerusalem in 33 A.D. had the same percentage of
hateful, greedy, self-centered people as America in 2002.  We've just invented
more ways to express evil over the last 2000 years.  A 1st-century Christian
transplanted to the 21st century would only have to get used to the technology;
the inner struggle against unbelief would be familiar.

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


author: Alan Brooks

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
BrickRage wrote:

Admit it, you lifted that from an ancient Roman you once knew.

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

 -- Maximus Hysterius.


author: Tom Wood

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Check out Waking Life. Some of the ideas about individuality and self
responsibility are right on target.

TW


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
tracy <[email]> wrote:

I always laugh when I see housing developments with the
word "Hermitage" in their names.

HEALTH BONUS! That typo makes me sooooooooo angry.

Well, no.  If you teach your children the ways of your
church, you're starting a group.  When you teach your
children the ways of the world you're helping an
independence.

				--Blair
				  "My son."


author: wes

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I think you may be misunderstanding what Campbell was saying... The
point in myths is not to believe in literal stories (Plotner Robert
Glenn's posts were good about explaining this).  There are always
varying accounts of the same characters -- which you believe is
irrelevant.  It's the story and how it relates to society that matters.

Many of the same myths that the Star Wars stories propagate are the same
as in the Matrix, or the Lord of the Rings, or the Godfather, or ... the
list goes on and on, because the point in mythology is that the stories
permeate the culture and the human psyche.  It's not tied down to any
particular manifestation, like Star Wars.

Tales teaching "spirituality" in the Campbell sense are everywhere.
They aren't hard to find.  That was his thesis.  What I believe you're
perceiving is natural variance in "evil deeds."  With more people, more
activities, more social groups, more of pretty much everything from
quality of life to destructive weapons *in addition to* incredibly
widespread dissemination of news, it's very easy these days to find
examples of a spiritual void.

Wes


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
True enough. I watched this with my nephew and there was that fun element.
My criticism has more to do with Lucas' misuse of mythological themes. It is
in response to a chaotic, threatening world that we seek out entertainment.
It distracts us and relieves us for a couple of hours. All great in balance.
But The Force is cast as a way to deal with the chaos and threat in the Star
Wars movies as surely as intuitive connection is the path through the chaos
in our real world. Lucas seems to have lost that sense in the current
trilogy. There are no exercises and training to the apprentice Anakin beyond
a few admonitions. Yoda guided Luke through exercises that were to reveal
the source of The Force to him and whose knowledge made him a Jedi. There is
none of that here. Full of telekinetic bacteria, Anakin apparently has all
the powers he needs; he only has to decide which side he is on. He even
dives out of a speeder on a lark at towering height. I can't see Luke doing
this. Luke responds to challenge by trusting The Force and finding the
correct path. These Jedi apparently have such innate power they can go
skyscraper diving on a whim. Thank God, though, for if Anakin had been
knocked out of the speeder by a collision or a blaster bolt and then had to
utilize his Jedi skills to *respond* to a perilous fall, it would have been
too much cinematic tension. Instead, the scene appears to have been
conceived simply for its sensationalism, there for an opening special
effects thrill. It did not matter how much it contradicted the correct use
of The Force in the earlier films.

The effects are great, though, and I agree that the movie is worth seeing on
this basis alone. The point, however, is that there is none of the balance
that made A New Hope and Empire so compelling to its audiences. In the first
trilogy, the effects are balanced with and the story impelled by the hero
myth of seeking one's path and the revelation of inner truths. It drives
Luke's quest. But now we have Jedi whose powers are derived from friendly
bacteria. (Yodagurt?) The quest is missing in a great cover-up of special
effects. This is the world view we have today. We respond to the ugliness
around us not through inner change that positively affects the outer world
but by distraction alone.

Best regards,
Robert


author: Paulo Joe Jingy

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Black Ops wrote:

Or maybe we could all experience the true joy *anti-religion* can bring, by
embracing the two bloodiest regimes in history--the *atheistic*, communist
Soviet Union and *atheistic*, communist Red China.