subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"James Teo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

LOL.  Ad hominem.  Rather like a Catholic saying "well, he is a Prot or
non-believer".

john

"At your next dinner party, try playing the following game. Challenge
everyone around the table to produce a single drug that can cure people of
an illness, other then antibiotics. If you come up with anything, stop
whatever you are doing and call me."---Lynne McTaggart
http://www.whale.to/v/quotes2.html


author: Mattias Haglund

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:24:05 +0100, "john"
<[email]> wrote:

It's a deal then? Who will put up the money?

I'm just a student, so I can scarcely afford to pay for the entire
trip (although I assume it will be one-way), despite receiving monthly
kickbacks from Monsanto and Pfiz... D'oh! Did I write that out loud?

/mattias


author: H. van Rooyen

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
Two points:

1. The ridiculous claim that bacteria do not cause disease (as is propounded in
the article) was conclusively refuted at the turn of the last century by a man
named Robert Koch in a famous experiment where anthrax bacilli were obtained
from the blood of a sheep that had died of anthrax. These bacteria were then
cultured using the hanging drop technique. The bacteria from the culture were
inoculated into the tail of a healthy mouse, which proceeded to die of anthrax.
Anthrax bacilli could be demonstrated in the blood of the mouse.

The claim that the bacteria are present because of the disease is not a new
one.  It is redolent of the arrogance of one prof. James Simpson (a vehement
opponent of Koch and Lister) who opposed the microbe theory of infectious
disease and instead held that diseases were spread by foul miasmas in the air.
He claimed that,"the animacules(old word for micro-organisms) are not
aetiological, but mere artefacts of the disease process".  Simpson was a
greatly respected doctor (mainly due to his pioneering of anaesthesia in
Britain), thus his fallacious views caused a delay in the widespread
implementation of asepsis and a great deal of unnecessary suffering for
patients.

I am surprised that anyone still clings on to this pathetic theory which was
conclusively refuted so long ago.

The rather implausible statement about intravenous ascorbate being some kind
of universal panacea for infectious disease merits no further comment.

2. Regarding the statement about the incurability of noninfectious disease, I
   think that we are suffering from imprecise terminology. To 'cure' would
   refer to restoration of the body to the pre-diseased state. This is not
   as easy as you seem to think.  Even with the antimicrobial agents the drug
   cannot be said to 'cure' the disease. All that occurs is either suppression
   of growth of the microorganisms(eg. with erythromycin) or death with
   rupture(eg.with the penicillins). The patient's immune mechanisms still have
   to remove the inhibited or dead organisms and tissue repair has to take
   place.  What the drug does do is stop the microorganisms from exerting their
   deleterious effects(eg. toxin production and multiplication) and therefore
   giving the immune system time to suppress the infection.

   In response to the smug statement at the end of the posting I would like to
   list a few non-infectious diseases that can be said to be cured by drug
   therapy, followed by a delineation of the difficulties involved in drug
   treatment of noninfectious and degenerative disease.

   1.Acute iron poisoning and chronic iron overload with desferroxamine. This
     is a chelating agent which enhances iron excretion.

   2.Many neoplasms, eg. certain leukaemias, seminomas, dysgerminomas etc. by
     means of cytotoxic agents. Often the cancer remains in remission, thus a
     cure can be said to have been effected.  There will be an explosion of
     knowledge in this area in the next few years as the cellular functioning
     of tumour cells becomes better understood.

   3.The use of iodine-131 to cure Grave's disease.

The difficulty in treating noninfectious and degenerative diseases is that they
tend to be either genetic (eg familial hypercholesterolaemia, where a defective
LDL receptor is produced) (it is apparent that one cannot cure such a disease
without altering the genetic make-up of the individual.  It is highly probable
that this will become a therapeutic strategy in the future.), or due to
accumulated environmental insults over time, which leads to loss of permanent
tissues such as neurones or generation of abnormal tissues(neoplasia).

The latter type of disease(eg. many cancers, probably Alzheimer's and
Parkinson's diseases) are best treated by prevention, i.e. characterisation
of the offending agent and avoiding it. Once the disease has developed,
pharmacotherapy (except, obviously, cancer chemotherapy, which is sometimes
curative) can only be used to slow the  progress of the disease and to
alleviate symptoms and improve the patient's quality of life.  We cannot yet
induce the permanent cells to divide in vivo(although experiments with stem
cells may hold promise), thus a 'cure' is not possible at present.

I hope I have demonstrated that the science of therapeutics is somewhat more
complex than what certain people seem to imagine.

H. van Rooyen


author: David Wright

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9kgono$djc$[email]>,
John Scudamore in drag as "Jan <[email]>" wrote:

A man is known by the company ne keeps, John-boy, and you use this
sort of "guilt by association" all the time.

Has anyone contacted McTaggart with our ever-growing list?

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
       "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
                  were standing on my shoulders."


author: James Teo

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2001 13:27:39 +0100, "Jan" <[email]>
wrote:

Now that you've expanded it out of degenerative diseases, how about
Tissue Plasminogen Activator (TPA)? It can cure a PE or an MI. Or if
you want some chronic illness, how about the various chemotherapy
agents for the various chemosensitive cancers?

Wonder if Dr Duffy or whoever has anything which can cure a disease,
and has actual proper clinical trial data to support it (That vitamin
C thing would count if it was replicated with suitable controls).


author: D. C. Sessions

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In <9kgono$djc$[email]> Jan posted:

No, it's like saying "Saint *who*?"

After all, you've given people no more reason to believe Ms. Duffy
than their neighborhood barber.  Mr. Teo did you the courtesy of
looking to see if the cited Ms. Duffy was actually someone whose
opinion should be given extra weight, and found otherwise.

Four, right off.  Silver nitrate and topical corticosteroids are both lasting
cures for skin infections, by completely different mechanisms.  Liquid
nitrogen also does a fine job on warts and basal- and squamous-cell
carcinomas, while salicylic acid does well on warts.


author: Carole

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
H. van Rooyen <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
propounded in
man
obtained
then
were
anthrax.

Emotive language such as "the ridiculous claim" does not wash i.e., how do
we know its ridiculous?
This is still to be proven.

Besides the above doesn't necessarily prove the soil theory wrong. Female
infections (you know, the ones you get down there) are contagious between
people (at least men and women). You could get one of those nasty little
bugs that causes many women such a problem, and infect another women with
it, yet it can still be eliminated by correcting nutritional deficiencies.
Yet they can be completely eliminated with cell salts i.e., correcting
nutritional deficiencies. This would seem to prove that the soil theory is
sound and well.

new
vehement
air.

Once again emotive language in the presumed "arrogance of one prof. James
Simpson" above.
was

Once again emotive language in "this pathetic theory". How do we know its
pathetic? Could be a case of transference where the subject sees their own
faults in other people. This soil theory has not been shown to be pathetic,
but rather modern medicine has been shown to have some deficiencies of its
own.

For example headlice and athletes foot are symptoms of blood impurities (can
be eliminated by correcting nutritional deficiencies). Female infections (I
presume they are bacterial infections) can be eliminated with correcting
nutritional deficiencies very easily. Yet how much about this does
allopathic medicine know? Answer - zilch.

kind
disease, I
drug
suppression
have
their
therefore
like to

This poster sure does like emotive language i.e., "smug statement". Maybe
smug from some point of view but brilliant from another's -- therefore
meaningless.
This
by
thus a
of
functioning
              <rest of post snipped i.e., worthless rubbish>

Carole
http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
H. van Rooyen <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
propounded in
man
obtained
then
were
anthrax.

Emotive language such as "that ridiculous claim" doesn't wash and it doesn't
go down well especially when it is used to discount a theory that everybody
knows has been suppressed by our modern system of so-called medicine. Such a
wonderful system, it can cure asthma, housedust allergies, dementia, can't
prevent the increase in diabetes, all these diseases of civilisation it is
completely non-plussed.
Way back in the 30s or whenever, allopathic medicine decided to set the
standard. It got rid of anything that feintly resembled the soil theory and
put itself up as the one and only standard. Everything else was quashed.
What a disaster. Now that it has been discovered that the only thing
allopathic medicine can cure is contagious infections and acute inflammatory
type diseases which often would have resolved themselvles, it is left with a
population full of ever-increasing degenerative conditions which it has no
idea how to handle. But it will never say die because it is a lucritive
business and if you can't cure people, well there always the money.

More examples of emotive language are "those wonderful fresh fruits and
vegetables", "pure health-giving foods", "gorgeous appetite enhancing
thingies", etc. These emotive terms are used by both sides and are to be
deplored as very unscientific. Now when I use the term scientific, I don't
mean conventional science which has all its peer things and blind tests
etc., I mean natural science and logic which isn't an exclusive little club.
Unfortunately the science we have today has turned into some sort of
exclusive little club and uses terms like "the rigours of science" where
only those who have done the hard yards have the right to participate.
However, anybody who has every grown a plant, or spent time in thinking
about healthy living processes has the right to their thoughts on the matter
and not to be overriden by conventional science.

Carole
http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
H. van Rooyen <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
more
Hey and even if its not all that complex after all, you sure as hell will
make sure its kept that way.
(Why not --Wink, wink!)
After all we can't have all those years of school going down the drain, can
we?

Carole
http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text: Thought of another one: methotrexate in trophoblastic disease.


author: bronsing

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
Carole wrote:

No Carole, this is proven. The term 'ridiculous claim' is even a soft
term. 'blatant lie' would be a better term.

No, it would seem to prove, well..nothing. But, if you could prove this
in a good clinical trial then people might start listening. Untill then
this is just a wild claim.

We know it's pathetic since (as van Rooyen stated) it was 'conclusively
refuted so long ago'.

Well, actually Carole you have stated before that you made many
diagnoses using Encarta which kind of disqualifies the story. And the
very term 'blood impurities' means well, nothing.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <[email]>, James Teo says...

So now we have a bunch of allopathic cures, John.

But what really is intriguing for me is why controlling the symptoms, slowing
progression, and improving patient health related quality of life are somehow
bad things to have.  The inability to cure heart disease or arthritis is by no
means a damnation of the ability of modern medicine to reduce it's effects on
the mind and body.

amp


author: john

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"James Teo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
of

only 80% in choriocarcinoma 5 year survival--saves 20-30 lives each year in
usa.


author: PF Riley

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:01:25 GMT, [email] (James Teo)
wrote:

Synthetic hormones can cure ovarian cysts.


author: Jan

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"amp_spamfree" <[email]> wrote in message
news:kOtb7.147$[email]...

I missed that.

slowing
somehow
by no
on

Allopaths can only use drugs, in reality, and wharfarin isn't my idea of
medicine, to take one heart drug.  Great for business--I think one compnay
turned over 2 billion on its heart drugs last year.

You should only treat degenerative disease with nutrients and detox,
generally speaking.

john

"Early statistics kept by referral physicians demonstrated that 80% of those
who follow our (Arthritis Fund) recommendations got well.providing they hadn
't been treated by traditional methods (which) drops our successes to 50%,
which is considerably greater than the "improvement" rate of about 33%
obtained through traditional treatments. Incidently, that 33% "improvement"
rate claimed by establishment treatments is just about equal to the placebo
effect."---di Fabio author of Arthritis: Little Known Treatments.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:20:35 +0100, "john"
<[email]> wrote:

80% is pretty good, don't you think? Besides Lynne McTaggart wanted
something "which cured an illness apart from antibiotics" and made no
mention of a 100% cure rate. I challenge you to find an alternative
therapy which as high a 5-year cure rate (and data too). As I said
before, that Vitamin C infusion study would be a valid thing if you
could find the original study data and replicate it.
John, I suggest you call Lynne McTaggart at once and inform her of
your momentous discovery.


author: Adam Teasdale

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
I'm sure millions of women would like to hear about this, plus quite a few
gynaecologists !

Are you sure you have the right disease for the cure, or is it a bit of
wishful thinking.

Carol T


author: JX Brown

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
PF Riley wrote in message <[email]>...
of

I've seen some pretty spectacular results with Accutane for the treatment of
cystic acne.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:11:03 +0100, "Jan" <[email]>
wrote:

Please try and stay focused John, I know it's difficult sometimes, but
do try. Those listed so far are:

Treatment for warts
Antivirals for viral infections
Antibiotics for microbial infections
Chemotherapy for some cancers
Hormonal treatments for some gynaecological disorders

Those can be single (or a single schedule) treatment cures. All Lynne
wanted was one drug which could cure a disease, and we have a couple
already.

Wharfarin (spelling error on John's part) is not a "heart drug".
Please know some facts before trying to argue against that drug.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"James Teo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Get real, a cure is 100% in anyones book apart from the allopaths book of
propaganda.  The allopaths had to call cure 5 year survival, and even 2
years in some cancers.  And choriocarcinoma is such as small fraction of the
cancer numbers it doesn't even register on the scale.  And, they split
cancer up into about 100 different types not just for therapeutic reasons
but to help their spin.

Try telling someone you have a cure for cancer.  In reality you haven't
really done that much in 100 years with drugs for cancer.

john

"The great success stories of chemotherapy were always in relatively obscure
types of cancer. Childhood leukemia constitutes less than two percent of all
cancers and many of chemotherapy's other successes were in diseases so rare
that many clinicians had never even seen a single case (Burkitt's lymphoma,
choriocarcinoma, etc.)"-Ralph Moss


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:39:51 +0100, "Adam Teasdale"
<[email]> wrote:

For a cyst that does not resolve spontaneously, high dose oral
contraceptives usually cause it to regress completely. I'm sorry you
haven't heard about this.

Yes, I am sure.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"JX Brown" <[email]> wrote in message news:cpjb7.2763
of

spectacular results is the word http://www.whale.to/drugs/roaccutane2.html

john


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In <[email]> James Teo posted:

You forgot corticosteroids for skin infections,
LN2 for basal and squamous-cell carcinomas,
and SSRIs for several types of depression.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"James Teo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Wooo.

Oh, like HIV?  Vitamin C is better than all of them
http://www.whale.to/w/antiviral.html

We never denied that.

"Some" being less than 2%, and then only alleged  80% of them and that is 5
year, and after some pretty horrible side effects, like cancer.  Not exactly
a cure in my book.

OK, given to heart disease patients.

john


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 19:27:05 +0100, "Jan" <[email]>
wrote:

Well, it is odd then that Lynne McTaggart has to exclude antibiotics
as that doesn't have a 100% cure rate.

An illness is an illness. Don't try to back out and add all kinds of
conditions now.

No allopath would claim to have a cure for cancer, only quacks do
that.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9kli9l$mt6$[email]>,
john <[email]> wrote:

Lest anyone be misled, John-boy's URL there has nothing to do with the
efficacy of Accutane on acne, and is instead a set of articles about
how Accutane may induce depression in a small fraction of those who
take it.  Typical John squirming.  Accutane does work extremely well
on acne.  Worked great on me, for example.

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
       "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
                  were standing on my shoulders."


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:47:47 +0100, "john"
<[email]> wrote:

I note that age of all these studies. The latest one was 1963 for
influenza and it was not a blind study and probably had no controls.

I am speculating here about the dearth of of any post-1963 study
showing anything for ascorbic acid in the in-vivo treatment of
viruses, perhaps, just perhaps after 1963, large double-blind studies
were done and showed that it had no effect. Somehow whale.to decides
not to include those in their review and so we get outdated science
seeming to overwhelm modern day science. Plausible? On the other hand,
I am sure you will argue it is due to PharmaPutz (sic) blocking any
research money in such area, but surely, all the ascorbites would be
able to scrounge up some money for such a cheap medicine?

BTW, your reference makes no mention of HIV.

But wait! They're not 100%! Some of them take a long time to work (eg:
tuberculosis)! Oh dear, she's going to have to disqualify them too.

You don't know what "5-year survival rate" means do you?

Hardly specific. Tell me John, do you even know what Warfarin does,
how it acts and why it is given? Hurry of to your Google or whale.to
search engine.


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"James Teo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Yes, but allopaths claim to have the only therapy worth anything, and
allopaths have suppressed or "ignored" all other cancer therapies for 100
years http://www.whale.to/m/therapies.html

And allopaths love to spread propaganda about "quacks" which basically means
the competition, as allopaths are the boggest cancer quacks of the lot, in
reality.

john


author: Steve Harris

subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"David Wright" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9kngj3$ug$[email]...
ct.

ROFL. Great. Yours?

BTW the shoulders of giants quote, as original, long predates Newton. It's
got such a long history that Thomas Merton wrote a whole book about it
(called On the Shoulders of Giants, naturally).


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
"Steve Harris" <[email]> wrote in message news:9knue2

They like to stand on morons.

john

"With most people unbelief in one thing is founded on blind belief in
another."--Lichtenberg


subject: Re: Bacteria DO NOT Cause Disease

text:
In article <9knue2$brj$[email]>,
Steve Harris <[email]> wrote:

Nope, a faculty member at MIT, as I recall.  I hunted it up at one
point.

The group They Might Be Giants should do a song about this.

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
       "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
                  were standing on my shoulders."


author: Peter E Alves

subject: Ultra Wide 9.1 GIG NEW $799

text:
IBM 9.1GB FAST WIDE SCSI II 8.5ms Hard Drive at 7200 RPM's (New)
$799+ shipping & COD

Peter Alves
Rochester, NY 14624
716-247-7084 AM EST
716-429-6906  fax
716-729-2920 AFT 6 PM EST
[email]
COD/VISA/MC/AMEX*

These are Brand New IBM 9.1 Giga-Monster FAST/Wide SCSI-II Drives!!! At
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author: [redacted]

subject: OT--Americans depressed, sleepless

text:
Poll: Americans depressed, sleepless

Terrorist attacks take emotional toll on many, results show

WASHINGTON, Sept. 19 ï¿½  Terrorist attacks have united the
country in its backing for a strong military response but
have left many Americans depressed, distracted and
sleepless, a poll concludes.

SEVEN IN 10 said they have felt depressed since the terrorist
attacks Sept. 11, nearly half report having trouble concentrating and
a third said they have had trouble sleeping, according to the poll by
the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press.

Women were more likely to say they were feeling depressed
about the attacks ï¿½ four in five ï¿½ than men ï¿½ fewer than
two-thirds. Parents were more likely than nonparents to feel
depressed. Residents of major cities along both coasts were more
likely to say they were depressed by the attacks than were other
Americans.

Women also reported more problems sleeping than men.
ï¿½Clearly, people are devastated by what happened,ï¿½ said
Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center. ï¿½This helps
explain why thereï¿½s so much resolve to prevent this from happening
again.ï¿½

He noted that also helps explain why the support of a
military response doesnï¿½t drop that dramatically, even
when people are reminded that such a conflict could
cause heavy military casualties.

The Pew poll said more than four in five support a
military response and showed only a small drop in
that sentiment when people are reminded that it could
cost heavy military casualties.

Other polls in the last week showed a somewhat
larger drop, but still indicated that two-thirds support military
action, even with heavy casualties.

People said they are constantly tuned in to news reports about
the current situation, with almost two-thirds saying they are
addicted to that coverage, somewhat higher than the number who
were locked into coverage of the Persian Gulf war.

Nine in 10 said the media are doing an excellent or good job,
with more than half saying excellent, a positive rating of the media
that is unprecedented in the Pew poll.

The survey of 1,200 adults conducted from Sept. 13 through
Monday has an error margin of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.msnbc.com/news/631188.asp


author: Derald Martin

subject: Re: OT--Americans depressed, sleepless

text:
Just the stupid ones, my friend.
	The appelation, "Pew", for that so-called poll cannot be
coincidental. Some cynical bastard has a wonderful sense of
humer :-). Do you have any idea what a pitiably small sample
that is, compared to the universe that it purports to represent?
Do you have any idea what kind of arithmetical manipulation was
done to make the responses to this bullshit "poll" appear to
indicate a trend? Have you actually ever _known_ anyone who
participated in one of these BS "polls"? Not I. You, either,
I'll bet. Propaganda is what it's about, I'll bet. Yet one more
bogus poll producing bogus results that _some_ unsuspecting dupe
will pick up, give some degree of credence to, and propagate.
	Tell you what: If Lying Lyndon and his Gang of Fools could
not turn me into a "depressed, sleepless" American, despite
their best efforts to kill off my generation for no apparent
reason, then you can bet your ass that no gang of rag-head
bottom feeding camel-humpers will, either.
	For my part, you pollster needs to get a real, productive
job and leave the pure bullshit to the politicians, teevee
preachers, and telephone psychics.


subject: Re: OT--Americans depressed, sleepless

text:
Actually, Pines & Aronson 1988 showed that things like depression and burnout
tend to be Maslovian. People at risk of war or invasion do NOT tend to get as
many psychological problems (at least not until AFTER the risk is gone).  The
study compared Jewish families who had relatives in both New York and Israel.

				- = -
    Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
	      BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
       http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
  ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}---


subject: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
I am refinancing my Home Mortgage and need to determine what expenses can be deducted on
taxes.  The expense charges on the refinance are listed below - which of these can I
deduct on taxes (I do my own taxes via TurboTax):

 - Financial Institution's Origination charge ($695)
 - Appraisal Fee ($400) - I asked about this in another message, but will include it here
 - Credit Report Fee ($17)
 - Flood Cert Fee ($9)
 - Tax Service Fee ($78)
 - Wire Fee ($20)
 - Title Services and Lender's title insurance ($1,137.50)
 - Government recording charges ($75)
 - Daily Interest Charges ($231.20)

Thanks and appreciate any insights/suggestions any of you can provide.

charliec

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
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<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties  >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
<<                                                         >>
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<<  to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy  >>
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author: JoeTaxpayer

subject: Re: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
On 2/25/12 6:03 PM, [email] wrote:

The interest. $231.20.

If the $695 is 'points', they are divided over the life of the loan, so
1/15 or 1/30 etc, per year.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used,   >>
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<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
<<                                                         >>
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<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>


author: Phil Marti

subject: Re: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
On Feb 25, 6:03ï¿½pm, [email] wrote:

For sure:  the $231.20 of interest, although that should be included
in the new loan's 1098 figure.
Maybe:  The origination charge of $695.  IF it's points (see Pub 936)
you amortize it over the life of the loan.

Phil Marti
VITA/TCE Volunteer
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used,   >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties  >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
<<                                                         >>
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<<  to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy  >>
<<                  are at www.asktax.org.                 >>
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<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>


subject: Re: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
On Feb 26, 1:51ï¿½pm, "[email]" wrote:

I disagree.  These are costs of getting the refi loan, not of
purchasing or improving the property.

See Pub 530.

Phil Marti
VITA/TCE Volunteer
Clarksburg, MD

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used,   >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties  >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
<<                                                         >>
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<<  to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy  >>
<<                  are at www.asktax.org.                 >>
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<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>


subject: Re: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
On Feb 27, 2:41ï¿½am, Phil Marti <[email]> wrote:

You're right .  Publication 551 also says:

BEGIN QUOTE

  The following items are some settlement fees and closing costs you
cannot include in the basis of the property.

   1.Casualty insurance premiums.
   2. Rent for occupancy of the property before closing.
   3. Charges for utilities or other services related to occupancy of
the property before closing.
   4. Charges connected with getting a loan. The following are
examples of these charges.
         1. Points (discount points, loan origination fees).
         2. Mortgage insurance premiums.
         3. Loan assumption fees.
         4. Cost of a credit report.
         5. Fees for an appraisal required by a lender.
   5. Fees for refinancing a mortgage.

If these costs relate to business property, items (1) through (3) are
deductible as business expenses. Items (4) and (5) must be capitalized
as costs of getting a loan and can be deducted over the period of the
loan.

END QUOTE

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used,   >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties  >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
<<                                                         >>
<<   The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts   >>
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subject: Re: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
On Feb 25, 5:19ï¿½pm, JoeTaxpayer <[email]> wrote:

Also I think only

- Title Services and Lender's title insurance ($1,137.50)
- Government recording charges ($75)

get added to your cost basis, so in a sense they're deductible when
you sell your home at a gain over the exclusion amount.

Is it necessary to deduct the 231.20?  Won't it be included on the
1098 already?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
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<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
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subject: Re: Refinance Home Mortgage Expense

text:
Thanks for the reply.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
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<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer.                  >>
<<                                                         >>
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<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>


subject: A QUERY

text:
I've heard good and bad about screenplay writing sofware. However,
  I believe any screenwriter worth his/her whiteout should know the correct,
  universally accepted screenplay format. What written reference
  explains, and provides examples of the industry-standard format for
  screenplays? Thanks in advance.


author: Dena Jo

subject: Re: A QUERY

text:
[email] (Jenine56) wrote:

Specifically for formatting, http://www.oscars.org/nicholl/format.html
will get you jump-started.

I see someone else recommended Trottier's book.  I concur.


author: Dr. Jai Maharaj

subject: Re: A QUERY

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] (Jenine56) posted:

The "industry standard" varies slightly from studio
to studio and changes somewhat with time, but there
are several books on the topic.  Begin your search here:

A Few Notes on Formatting

Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences

http://www.oscars.org/nicholl/format.html

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti


author: Brian

subject: Re: A QUERY

text:
[email] (Jenine56) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

jenine,
The first reference I bought when I started into screenplays was the
"Screenwriters Bible". I still use it today. The last edition is a
little outdated, but the format is spelled out extensivley. I think it
will help. Try www.buy.com, usually get it for cheap there.
-Brian


author: Rich Cunningham

subject: ! FS: Software  !

text:
I have the following software for sale:

Family Tree Maker Deluxe v2.0 CD Rom w/ manual   $25.00
MS Multimedia Jumpstart Kit for Windows 95 3 CD's   $20.00
Sound It Out Land 1 & 2 educational phonics games on CD   $30.00/pair
San Diego Zoo presents the Animals CD v1.0   $12.50
Mixed Up Mother Goose CD (from Sierra On-line) $10.00
Once Upon a Forest CD game (based on the movie) $11.00
Great Naval Battles 2: Guadacanal 1942/43 CD rom  $15.00
Quarterdeck Mosaic Web Browser on 3.5" floppy  $9.00
MS Office Pro 4.3 Developer's Kit CD Rom/manual   $39.00
Visual Basic 4.0 Professional CD rom upgrade  $95.00
Visual C++ 1.52 CD Rom $50.00
MS Works Multimedia for Windows v3.0  $27.00
Gupta SQLWindows Solo CD rom development tool  $25.00
Turbo Tax Deluxe CD Rom Final Edtion   $22.00
Turbo Tax Final Edition 3.5" floppies  $17.00
Links Solid Gold CD golf game  $15.00
Doom Companion CD Rom   $15.00
Great Naval Battles 3 CD Rom   $15.00
Dos 6.0 upgrade 3.5" 720k disks
Silent Service II submarine game 3.5" disks
Windows 3.1/Dos 6 package w/manuals (OEM) $50.00
Windows 3.1 w/manuals (8 sets)(OEM) $35.00
Windows for Workgroups upgrade 5.25" disks $35.00

Any reasonable offers will be considered. Buyer pays shipping, prepay by
check, cash or money order. No CODs.

email if interested


author: The Honorable Rocky Five

subject: One apology from me

text:
Where this NG is concerned I didn't really know how do deal with what
happened to me on June 18, 2004 when Tim would turn into constant bullshit
about my entire life until just a few days ago.

For that I am sorry and I owe a great deal of thanks to bbelly, ~Tony~ and
Skateboard'n for pointing out that what I called a "belly strap" on June 17,
2004 was indeed a "belly strap."

I'll continue to point out the error of Tim's ways as long as he keeps
making those same mistakes and I'll probably keep pointing out the "Sucker
Bait" that not only Dave Ruff uses but that anybody uses.

"Sucker Bait" is basically any remark made that takes a newsgroup off it's
intended course and it doesn't even matter if it is true or not only that it
is used to take a newsgroup off course and to attack another poster.

More at:
http://catb.org/jargon/html/Y/YHBT.html

TIA

The Honorable Mr. Rocky Five

PS.  To the GEL Troll.  It doesn't matter to me if you can't address me as
"Your Honor."


author: GodEverlasting

subject: Re: One apology from me

text:
On Jan 6, 11:44 am, realitytrucker <[email]> wrote:

My mistake - that man is truly as evil an insane person as I have EVER
come across - I just THANK GOD he's such a COWARD!!!


subject: Re: One apology from me

text:
On Jan 6, 9:37 am, "The Honorable Rocky Five" <[email]> wrote:

AWWWWWWWW!!!!  Trying to cover for your actions by pretending to be
insane?????


subject: Re: One apology from me

text:
On Jan 6, 9:37 am, "Psycho Roger" <[email]> wrote:

You owe only one family an apology Roger - you know - that family you
have been harassing and defaming here - and you'd better do it
quick!!!!

Everybody else here can take care of themselves!


author: realitytrucker

subject: Re: One apology from me

text:
On Jan 6, 11:51 am, GodEverlasting <[email]> wrote:

Pretending??


author: The Honorable Dr. Rocky Five

subject: Re: One apology from me

text:
"realitytrucker" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Jan 6, 11:51 am, GodEverlasting <[email]> wrote:
bullshit
and
17,
"Sucker
it's
that it

- Pretending??

TROLLS


author: Dean Olivas

subject: FS: Celeron 366 PPGA Rock sold @550 2.2V

text:
I have two Celeron 366 OEM for sale they are rock solid @550 2.2V they both
come with a Generic 3 pin Fan and heat sink. Here is the batch number of the
chips.
The full batch # of the chips I have is: L9220577-1458 & L9220577-1459 these
are week 22 I would perfer to sell them as a set. I purchased four for my
dual over clocked system and to my suprise the all were good at 550MHz 2.2.

I am asking $85 ea. plus  $6 shipping if you have any question please email
me.

Thanks,
Dean Olivas


author: Herman Rubin

subject: Re: foreign language education rant (was Re: Teaching as a Profession)

text:
In article <[email]>,
J. Z. A.-H. <[email]> wrote:

			.................

I can use, to some extent, several languages.  I am also
aware of several culture, more than languages.  I disagree
on both points; you would need more than the language to
make some separation, and the language would have little
effect on others.

There is no such thing as a dominant American culture,
despite the efforts of the educationists to force one, and
even if there were, so what?  There are dozens of American
cultures; we have discussed some of the differences on this
newsgroup.  Those who want to learn academics should not be
compelled to go to the same school as those who consider it
objectionable.

Nor is there a single culture for other languages, with the
possible exception of some localized ones, such as the one
spoken in Luxemburg.  This is the strength of a society,
its diversity.

Even worse!  Wasting time is not a legitimate purpose
of something which claims to be educational.  After my
one-year French course, and even the much worse German
course, I probably could have gone to a country using
the language and been reasonably fluent in another few
months.  It is the structure of the language which is
important for this.  The "new methodology" seems to be
based on the assumption that grammar is hard, while the
evidence seems to be that it is essentially hard-wired
in the brain.

As for what people studied languages for in previous ages,
are you sure about your facts?  When the standard college
curriculum involved Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, do you think
either the faculty or the students were interested in the
cultures of the places which spoke those languages?  When
most high school students intending to go to college took
Latin, which gets us through much of American history,
would such a program as you have given made any sense?


text:
On 6 Jul 2000 12:37:23 -0500, [email] (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

But you are not a bilingual, so you can't share my perspective.  I
literally couldn't be what I am without my language.  I couldn't
possibly participate in my community as I do, relate to my family and
inlaws as I do, or see myself or the rest of the world as I do.  As a
child, and even now, I switch mentally back to this language for the
concepts best expressed in it.  This is like being right handed in one
situation, but left-handed in another.

This language has a character absolutely different from English, with
its own encoded value system.  Knowing nothing about it, or about this
difference at a conceptual level, how can you dismiss so easily the
possibility that a difference exists which can't be quantified, only
experienced?

Functional skills in a language do not of themselves provide cultural
understanding, but some understanding can and should be achieved even
in the early stages of learning a language.  Just because you know
German history for example does not mean you understand or appreciate
German culture or language.  The reverse is also true.  But this
knowledge can indeed should be acquired concurrently.  The one
reinforces the other, and the result is a deep understanding that
ought to be the goal of education in the first place.

There is a dominant American culture, as represented by popular
cultural forms and the Anglo-Saxon majority.  Ethnic minorities are
easily distinguishable only to the extent that they maintain their
languages and behave in ways typical to the parent culture.

I don't know what you mean.

Language study is the ideal way to learn about cultural diversity.

If you admit that your coursework, supplemented by time abroad would
have made you skilled in the language, how can you call it a waste of
time?  And why do you think FL teachers don't teach structure?

No.  The new methodology emphasizes the ability to function in the
language and its culture, which is the very thing you and the other
gentleman seem to believe FL education does not currently achieve, but
should.  The ACTFL standards encourage teachers and their students to
strive towards realistic, meaningful goals in skill acquisition, not
just "cover" concepts and "learn" vocabulary.  This is a very
important advance.  Grammar hasn't been discarded-- it's still there,
and it will always be there.  However it's not an end in itself.  It's
the means to an end.  The application is the entire point.

Are you kidding?!  Do you sincerely mean to say that the purpose of
learning Greek, Latin or Hebrew was to spell verbs, and not to acquire
cultural knowledge?  I hope you're not serious.  These languages,
along with Arabic, Chinese and Japanese are like keys which unlock
just about anything of importance ever written.  No translation, no
approximation, but direct access.  Or do you think this advantage had
no value in a traditional classical curriculum?

Would you at least agree that, at one time anyway, not knowing these
languages would have excluded you from the subculture of academia just
as surely as illiteracy would today?  Isn't it a bit strange to claim
that "culture" was not the goal of learning these languages, when
their users were a culture unto themselves, which existed mainly to
learn about, preseve and spread knowledge by means of these languages?

Why did the upper classes in previous generations learn French?  Do
you think this was because they found the forms of *ï¿½tre* especially
interesting or intellectually stimulating, or do you think this was to
gain entrï¿½e into a cultural context recognized as the natural domain
of their class?  Why were Cajun children as recently as thirty years
ago forbidden to speak their dialect at school?  Was this really
because it would prevent them from mastering English grammar?  Why do
you think European university students these days are often required
to do foreign studies in another EU nation?  Is it so they can taste
the local beer?

Past ages emphasized language learning as access to other cultures,
their knowledge, their ways of thinking and relating, and all the
opportunities that follow.  Grammatical mastery in FL study never was
the ultimate goal then, nor should it be now.

J. Z. Al-Huriyeh


text:
In article <[email]>,
J. Z. A.-H. <[email]> wrote:

There are lots of English-speaking cultures.  I would be totally
out of place in quite a few of them; English is not really a
"single" language, either.

On the other hand, if I was in a situation where using another
language on a steady basis was needed, I would learn that
language, assuming that I am able to do so.  If it was one
of the languages with which I have some acquaintance, it would
not take long.  I have the basis for several languages; even
in the ones I do not know well, I do not always translate.

I may have an idea of specifically what you mean here; it
should be taken to private email for further discussion.
But there are still different cultures for many languages,
and the language does not imply that much for the culture.
This is especially true in the sciences.

German is not too good an example, as it never really
spread.  However, Yiddish, which is mainly a German
dialect (close to mutually understandable with some
German dialects) has drastically different cultures,
even drastically differing from each other.

One of our graduate students is from Mali, where the
language of educated people is French.  How much is common
between his culture and that of Parisians?  Or even between
different groups of Parisians.

On the other hand, there is enough structural similarity
between the various language families to make it possible
to quickly build up the structure to learn to use the
languages for communication.  The cultural effect is mainly
not even in vocabulary, but in idiom.

Someone who has had a decent exposure to English grammar,
which should be moved to much earlier grades than it now
is, or even was, and is eventually good college material,
can pick up most of the grammar, some speaking, and a good
vocabulary in one year.  Further development then can come
from using the language, not "learning" it.

 The reverse is also true.  But this

On the contrary, it gives an excessively limited
understanding.  It ties the language to one particular
culture, instead of making it a powerful object in its
own right.

There are other minorities than ethnic minorities, and not
all ethnic minorities maintain their languages at all.  But
there are lots of ways of behaving atypical to the main
culture, and one of them, utterly disregarded by the
educationists, consists of those who believe that children
should learn what they are capable of, regardless of what
the community and the school personnel thing they should be
limited to.  This is a really separate culture, believing
that their children should not be limited to dumbed-down
curricula, even if the teachers themselves are so limited.

			...............

Mainly because it was the "in" thing.  This is what one
had to do to be considered in the upper classes.

			.............

                  Why were Cajun children as recently as thirty years

It was this, and also the belief that they would not even
acquire English vocabulary.  This was also used in schools
in Europe, where there was no intention of bringing the
speakers of the other language into the main culture.

We still do not know if this is the case, but there is
another minority which very definitely seems affected by
this problem.

 Why do

Are they required, or is this an option?  It is an option
at many American universities.  The applicants we get from
European universities typically do not have this on their
transcripts.


text:
On 7 Jul 2000 09:59:18 -0500, [email] (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

That fact doesn't contradict what I'm saying in the least.  In fact,
it supports my point.  Language *is* culture because it is the means
by which people create, understand and explore culture.  This is as
true of teenagers with their own dialect as it is for an ethnic
minority with its unique vocabulary and linguistic traditions.

By educating students to communicate and understand at least in
general terms the cultural context in which the communication occurs,
we have done more than teach linguistic concepts or build cognitive
skills (though of course this is important).  You have helped remove
barriers to understanding that could not be removed otherwise.

Using another language even passably well earns you membership,
however limited, in a new cultural community.  As fluency increases,
the sense of membership can become so intimate that you are altered by
it in every respect-- emotionally, behaviorally, intellectually, etc.
As a fluent speaker of four languages, I can compare it only to a
religious conversion, in which you acquire a new perspective on
yourself and your life, your values, etc.  You are a different person
for "being" in another language, because through it you participate
actively in a different world, a different way of being.

This is the kind of functional ability people of average intelligence
are quite capable of, if given the opportunity.  The question is what
approaches are best for preparing K12 students.  If past approaches
have tended not to produce this functional ability, we need new
approaches.  It makes no sense to declare the ability useless because
the means we tried of achieving it didn't work.

This is not an Arabic issue.  The existence of cultural variations
among speakers of the same language, and linguistic variations among
members of the same culture do not disprove the interdependence of
language and culture.  Again, this actually reinforces my point, since
language both divides and joins people in the cultural sense.  There
is much more going on between native speakers of a common language
than the exchange of discrete pieces of data.

If FL teachers ignore cultural contexts for the sake of focusing only
on the ability to pass data, the students will lack the ability to
relate at the very least, or to communicate at all.  Through your
knowledge of the cultural context, you master the language.  Through
the mastery of language, you deepen your knowledge of the cultural
context.  This is a reciprocal process you go through.  It involves
every skill-- reading, listening speaking and writing.

I believe any language could serve as an example.  What would the
point be of learning Yiddish or anything else, to the exclusion of its
culture, and vice versa?  What is the value of knowing the arbitrary
equivalent of your native language word, if you have no sense of the
connotations this word may carry in the language you are learning?
This is confusing the ability to count with the ability to calculate.

Through fluency in continental French, and exposure to authentic
continental French authors, your student could possibly have a great
deal in common with Parisians in that he would understand their
traditions, their habits of mind, and their value system considerably
better than someone who lacks the linguistic bond but simply studied
France in a conventional way.  Maybe he speaks a dialect of French, is
familiar with African Francophone authors, and through them, has a
special cultural bond with others who also speak his dialect.  That
would depend on him as an individual since, as you say, a language is
not limited to one cultural context.

Of course.  This is why FL study builds cognitive skills and mastery
of one FL usually facilitates mastery of others.  But I disagree
totally that cultural effect lies in idiom.  Idiom is very important
of course but this is one of many ways, both verbal and nonverbal,
that cultural effects are communicated.

Think about something as seemingly uncomplicated as verbal politeness
at meals.  When you visit an American's house, after the meal is over,
don't you usually compliment the food, and whoever cooked for you?  Is
that not normal behavior?  We thank our host for the meal and
hospitality by offering a faith-independent prayer that the host's
table will always be as full of food as it was when we sat down.  The
host, regardless of his faith, responds with another prayer like "God
willing".  This entire exchange is two, three words.

A foreigner who learns this exchange, and knows when and why to use
it, has communicated something beyond a literal message.  It's not as
if his host would be offended if he didn't offer these words, or
offered compliments on the food instead.  The advantage here as that
the foreigner becomes a participant in his host's culture because he
understands what this conversation of two words means in a deeper,
cultural sense.  He makes his host feel closer to him, even if he can
say little else, because he shows understanding of the *why* behind
this act of communication, and not simply the *what*.

K12 students are capable of understanding the importance of the
cultural context within which languages are used.  In my experience,
this knowledge is motivating for students.  They are curious and
surprised to learn that something as simple as the exchange described
above can mean so much.  They are also able to provide examples from
their own experience.  This is what the new methods can and do prepare
them to do.

I have no objection to that.  I agree with you that English
instruction in the US could be improved, though I'm not sure what
ought to be done for that.  (This is not my specialty) But your last
sentence aligns with what I've been trying to say again and again.
Teach students FL by USING the language.  Teach IN FRENCH and not
ABOUT French!  This is what ACTFL wants, and what the students want
and need.  What else makes sense?

No! Not at all!  K12 FL materials are multicultural, far more diverse
now than they were even 10 years ago.  If you took the time to examine
some, I think you would agree with me.

You have a right to your prejudices against educationists, as you call
them, but I don't know what this has to do with this subject, which I
had thought was FL methodology, not school culture.  I'm saying the
new standards and methodology lead to the skills you and Chevalier
believe-- and I too believe-- K12 students need, deserve, and can
achieve.  I'm saying, don't dismiss out of hand standards which focus
on communication rather than memorizations.  I'm saying, don't reduce
a FL to a "subject", when it ought to be considered more a frame of
mind, a way of thinking, and an interpersonal skill.

Yes, to participate in a culture.

It was to deprive them from their language and culture, for the
purpose of Anglicizing them.

I'm not sure what you mean.

This depends on the major, and US study can substitute for it, based
on what I have heard.

I'm very surprised that you deny a cultural aspect to knowing these
languages.  That statement makes no sense to me.  Scholars were then
needed to collect and distribute existing information, as well as add
new information.  Renaissance scholars for example, rediscovered and
redistributed knowledge from ancient times.  Their language study and
shared fluency made them a cultural group, and they were themselves
the stewards of all existing cultural knowledge.

J. Z. Al-Huriyeh


author: Bob LeChevalier

text:
Missing most of the posts in this thread until deja gets fixed, I answer the
one I am seeing and others as mentioned therein:

[email] (J. Z. A.-H.) wrote:

Probably I want to know what it means so I can tell someone in Spanish to
meet me for lunch tomorrow, or some such mundane communicative purpose.  The
deeper cultural importance of the concept "manana" simply is not something I
care about - I just want to meet the guy for lunch.

And since we cannot be polylingual in all the world's languages, it becomes a
question of whether there is a reason to be multilingual.  Communication is a
reason - the main reason - why people learn languages.  Understanding another
culture is a nicety, but doesn't pay any bills (and Americans as always are
concerned about the bottom line).

It is worthehole to get across the concept that cultural context can affect
the understanding of efforts to communicate - why Khrushchev's "We will bury
you" in the late 50s was not the threat that Americans perceived it, because
he was making metaphorical reference to Russian culture about the survivors
being the ones that bury the dead.  But once the concept is understood, then
it should simply remind one to double check meaning if misunderstanding seems
possible, because we simply aren't going to learn all the cultural
connotations of all the peoples who we will come in contact with, or even of
all the language that we explicitly study.

This assumes one wants such membership.  Most people find the world a little
too big as it is, and don't need to expand it even further.

And this assumes you want to be altered by another culture.  Americans are
smugly comfortable in their culture.

I can say the same thing as a non-fluent speaker of Russian, and as a student
of an artificial language - Lojban - that has no culture at all.  Both
significantly altered my way of looking at things.  But I can also see that
such alterations are not exactly things most people are looking for, or
necessarily see as advantageous.

There is no particular reason to believe that we can achieve it within the
time investment that we are willing to allocate to the subject/skill.  And
little chance that the skill can be maintained without more work than most
students are going to put forth.  This hearkens back to the
elective/mandatory issue touched on in a previous post.  Those without
motivation will likely not learn no matter how long they spend, and those
with motivation will also need time and willingness to spend that time to
gain and then to maintain the skill.  We don't have enough people so
motivated at present to make such electives particularly feasible.  Without
foreign language requirements, in most schools too few would take language
courses long enough to achieve functional skill.

Note that a true interdependence of language and culture, known as the strong
form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, is something that many linguists have
rejected.  Our artificial language project was designed as a means of testing
the S/W hypothesis in a weaker formulation, but even there it is still a
controversial claim despite the anecdotal evidence of polyglots and
bilinguals.

The question is whether most speakers of language, and especially speakers of
a foreign language CARE about going beyond exchanging discrete pieces of
data.

I am not denying this, but the time involved in such mastering of a culture
is even greater than that involved in learning vocabulary, and it brings
only, umm, spiritual rewards.  Nothing that you can take to the bank. (I
phrase this deliberately cynically, since I don't feel that education should
only be about making money faster, but it is the lowest common denominator of
our common goals for education that they include skills that can be
marketable).

To talk to someone who speaks Yiddish and who doesn't speak English.  That is
the main reason for learning ANY foreign language - to talk to people you
could not otherwise communicate with.

Bad argument with Herman...  you'll find out.

I agree with you, and I think that Herman is wrong, but you will be
hard-pressed to prove it to him.

Most people consider all that to be entirely culture, and not language at
all.  None of those things are particularly standard across American culture,
much less across anything we might call "English language culture".  Hence no
one will believe those customs to be a language thing.

I understand that this can be useful if one is trying to get closer to
someone of a different culture.  But again, that is cultural education and
not language.  It also is not especially relevant to the world of business,
science, and other realms where people use language to make money (certainly
acting in a way offensive to another culture might kill a business deal, but
the specifics of what one might need to learn are going to be very specific
to the situation - nothing you are likely to teach them in a K/12 classroom.

I imagine it might be motivating for some students.  For me in high school
anbd college, I saw no point; the other cultures were not at all interesting
to me, but I WAS interested in the access to data that learning another
language might provide me.  The teaching I got did not provide me that access
to data.

Even today, I would like to learn about particular cultures that I have a
personal association with through people I have known from those cultures,
especially Russian.  But I find even learning one culture, the Russian one,
at a level that fits my interest so daunting a task as make such a pursuit
worthwhile only as a low priority avocation (my not being the sort of person
who would spend months or years travelling in another country to do that
learning).

If you get their interest, fine.  But I doubt that you will hold their
interest when it comes to the real WORK needed to master a language.

For Herman, explaining the rules and the system as if it were a mathematical
black box model.  He has no interest in immersing himself in the language or
the culture, merely in using it as a mapping/description of information or
concept that he can convert/translate into a similar mapping/description in
English.  Language is a tool to him, nothing more.

My daughter is taking Spanish next year. I will be looking at the materials
as she goes based on your claims, and perhaps even learning the language
along with her since I now know how to do so, though I will be learning it
for its tool aspect only.

I have thus far been unimpressed by the cultural stuff I have seen, or at
least by the total lack of impact it has had on my daughter - >I< have been
more interested in the stuff that she brough home than she has, and she
passed the FLES course only because the teacher had low standards, because
she never studied a word of vocabulary and in fact seldom could find the
copious handouts once she left the classroom.  She flunked every test I saw,
but still got a C in the course.

There are probably very few people who have been discoursing with you on the
net that consider themselves part of this supposed dominant American culture.
Anglo-Saxons are hardly a majority in this country - at best, one could say
that people with more than 50% Anglo-Saxon heritage probably constitute a
large plurality.  But my heritage is French, Italian, German Jew and
Palestinian Jew with more distant roots in Russia. My wife has German and
Russian Jewish heritage.  Most people who immigrated to this country after
around 1850 are not Anglo-Saxon, and the period just before that had high
domination by the Irish who are Celtic.

They are not publically distinguishable because we have public behavior norms
that are taught relatively independently of the parental culture.  We have a
strong line between public and private behavior, and in private a lot of
things that are part of the public culture are not seen.  Yet, for example,
my home culture has almost nothing to do with my parent's culture or ethnic
background; I charted my own path in adulthood.

This is basically what I have been saying, except that I go further and say
that these behaviors and minority cultures are quite individual things that
often are NOT passed down parentally.

I don't think they need them, hardly have an opinion on what they "deserve"
(an alien concept), have no doubt that they can achieve them if motivated
(but my daughter though able to learn English well, and in her mind motivated
to learn Spanish (her best friend since first grade is a Peruvian born
bilingual, and most of her boyfriends have been Hispanic), has NOT actually
learned anything of any other language.

Furthermore, my original claim is that with few exceptions, the time spent
will be largely wasted because they will not retain the skill until they have
a use for it as adults IF they ever do (the time between my German course and
my 3 hours in Frankfurt was 23 years, and I doubt that I heard and noticed a
complete sentence in German in the intervening time).  By saying it is
"wasted" I am NOT claiming that no good at all comes from it, but rather that
far less good results for the time spent than the American public has found
justifies the time investment, given that there is not enough class time to
cover other things that the public finds more important (and not being
learned).

But that is precisely what almost all students do with all classes they take
- they are "subjects" to be mastered to the satisfaction of the teacher who
will give them a grade.  The exception is in those special schools which
teach by part-time immersion, where "Spanish" is not a subject, but half of
the school day is taught in Spanish.

No.  To gain the advantages of the label called "culture".

Agreed.  There is a significant portion of the American people that have the
prejudice that the rest of the world should just give up and learn English
because we are of course the most superior culture and English is the de
facto world language of the Internet and of business.  This prejudice is
wrong, but it exists and furthermore there are some who think that it is
wrong for the schools to teach that it is wrong.

People learned ancient Hebrew in order to read the Bible untranslated.  They
learned ancient Greek forth same reason, but in addition to be able to read
Euclid or Aristotle in the original.  There was no interest in learning the
ancient cultures except as needed in order to understand the words, and
indeed few did.  Latin is a dead language because for hundreds of years
people studied Latin WITHOUT studying Latin culture, so that all that they
learned was the fossilized written remnants of that culture, and only
selected ones at that.  Very few people realize that the Latin of Cicero was
a stilted form for oratorical purposes, and not the Latin of the streets, and
that the language changed significantly from Cato to Constantine - vulgar
Latin eventually became Italian and the other Romance languages - the written
language remained a fossil.

Now cultural knowledge is useful when one needs to understand a reference -
e.g. knowing the various aspects of the Greek gods are pretty essential to
understanding the references to them in Homer.  But largely that is just
additional facts to be memorized for most kids.

I think that we do not disagree all that much as to the role of culture in
language, but your claims contradict American prejudices as well as the
categorization we attach to the phrase "language" which does NOT include the
culture other than as a set of words and their references that are specific
to the ethnos.  And we still differ on the cost/benefit tradeoffs - what the
student gains for X amount of time studied, given that s/he may have no
particular motivation to study language Y (as opposed to some other language
or no language at all), nor opportunity to use the language if it is learned.
I can buy that you may be able to impart some motivation, but I don't know if
it is enough to sustain the kid through hours of vocabulary study and
language laboratories, work that I have not been able to sustain even with
strong motivation.  And I don't think that the transferrence of skill in
language Y to later learning language Z is enough to warrant spending years
on learning language Y if Y is NOT going to be used at all.  One year or two
at most might be reasonable, but that is not enough time to learn Y enough to
make practical use of it if the opportunity does arise.  I would instead
favor a full year FLES course that explored more than one language, taught
how culture and language interact with maybe some specific examples to
motivate the kids, both structural and practical analysis of a couple of
languages, etc.

lojbab


author: Richard Gregan

subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text:
You can include evidence such as school leaving certificates etc - that
show you have been educated in English.


author: baronj

subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text:
Perhaps a stoopid question, but...

being English I have little
documentary evidence to prove my English language ability. So on form
47SK where it asks me to tick of the checklist at the back, should I
leave the box for 'evidence of english language ability' blank or just
tick it off??


subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text:
Originally posted by Richard Gregan
evidence such as school leaving certificates etc - that show you have
been educated in English.

Cheers for that - good idea!!

so,
certified copies of my A-level certificates would be sufficient then I
suppose. Do you think I should put in GCSEs as well or would that just
be overkill?


author: Tina Baker

subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text: I just ticked it and added (Native language) by the side........


author: George Lombard

subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text:
Hi Baronj,

If a native speaker from the UK, Northern America, Southern Africa or NZ
don't worry about it.  If a native speaker from South Asia it doesn't matter
what you say they'll want an IELTS test.

Cheers

George Lombard


author: ptlabs

subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text:
Originally posted by George Lombard
from South Asia it doesn't matter what you say they'll want an IELTS
test.

Careful George.

Some people may get offended and
label you as "regionally biased" :) The messenger sometimes get shot
here.

Peter


subject: Re: English Language Requirement

text:
Hi Peter,

You probably don't know how often people are disappointed when they try to
get around the IELTS test and can't.  If you don't tell people this then
there's something worse than being a shot messenger, and that's dishonestly
raising people's hopes.

Cheers

George Lombard


author: Asbestos Jeff

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
"ewan.torrance" <[email]> wrote in message news:<kB1zc.544$jj2.285@newsfe1-win>...

No. She and her husband moved to Brazil a couple years ago to teach
school for missionary kids. I think she posted a couple times after
the move, but I think this group was something she let fall by the
wayside. Dena Jo, didn't she e-mail you something last year?


author: Paulo Joe Jingy

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
ewan.torrance wrote:

Shit--how did you get through?  Are there more?  Keep your damn hands up
where I can see 'em.  I thought I kill-filed everyone in the Jay/Jai
Wars.  It's strange--I didn't expect to see another human being.  You
are human--right?  Keep your fucken hands up where I can see 'em!  Can
you... can you see me?  Damn--I thought everyone kill-filed me--did you
kill-file me--can you see me?  Who are you?!  Why the hell did you
survive--what do you want--are there more?  Gawd--it's nice to see
another human being, I thought I was the last one.  Now keep your hands
up before I blow your fucken head off!

-----
Paulo Joe Jingy
"National Recycle Old Crap Day"


subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
In article <kB1zc.544$jj2.285@newsfe1-win>,
 "ewan.torrance" <[email]> wrote:

Just Brick. And he's dead.


author: Dale and Mysti Berry

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
ewan.torrance wrote:

Hi Ewan!

Seems to be congested newsserver or...? traffic unusually light
yesterday & today...


author: Dena Jo

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
On 13 Jun 2004, M.C. posted thus:

Just imagine MWS Heaven -- Tom, Nesci and DC.  Wish I could see it, but
glad I can't.


author: geoff alexander

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
Dena Jo <[email]> wrote in message news:<Xns950930C9E1DenaJo@130.133.1.4>...

On the subject of DC, I'm doing some reading for a producer and just
read an ensemble comedy set in a small, Welsh town.  It reminded me of
him, but it was also funny.

G


author: pinknebulous

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
"Dena Jo" plucked a thought from my head when she wrote:

 LOL.

pink


author: Joe Myers

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
"Dena Jo" plucked a thought from my head when she wrote:

If DC is in "Mis-Writing-Screenplays Heaven," I don't wanna go.

Joe Myers
"He wanted to kill me!"


author: Steven J. Weller

subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
In article <d7Nzc.72361$[email]>,
 "Joe Myers" <[email]> wrote:

He's there alright, Joe.  Waddaya think they use to calibrate the sights
on Brick's pistol?


subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
"Joe Myers" <[email]> wrote in message
news:d7Nzc.72361$[email]...

Yeah, but you'd have the advantage. You'd already be dead.  Just think how
utterly frustrated he would be.  Maybe *so* frustrated he'd want you alive!

pink
"welcome back to the land of the living."


subject: Re: is anybody there?!

text:
"Steven J. Weller" <[email]> wrote

but

Good Lord, you may be right!

Joe Myers
"I always assumed it was dead bunnies."


author: Just Me

subject: Van Gogh's *Submission* on YouTube!!!

text:
The scum-of-the-earth murdered film director's great opus that he
produced and paid for with his life . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGtQvGGY4S4&feature=related


subject: Re: Van Gogh's *Submission* on YouTube!!!

text:
On Oct 9, 6:55 am, Alan Hope <[email]> wrote:

Quite. Right down to the 154th place after the decimal. However, I
would regard the 155th place extreme to the point of being petty and
picayunish.

It is a website?

Are you sure that wasn't "Look Back in Anger," what he wrote? Okay, so
next you'll be saying Richard Burton wrote that, first before Branagh
wrote it. I would agree. And never mind whatever IMDb has to say about
"John Osborne" or whatever.

Are you saying it's not the Delphic oracle?

Like I say, "Hirsi Ali" for short, to those of us in the know . . .

Well, I don't know what I didn't know. We never know what we don't
know.  Even you, the very Tower of London of the Torrid Tortures of
Truth do not know what you don't know, to the extent that you ever can
in all truth say, "I don't know!" and know that for sure.

I knew that Hirsi Ali was in the film; I knew it was based on her life
in . . . Somalia (was it?) or more like afterward in Saudi.  I knew
all that plus the juicy gossip about she and Van Gogh being "an item".
I knew all that!  Everybody knew that and still knows it, but what I
don't know, and dare hazard to guess that you don't know either is
just how much of "Submission" was conceived and written by Hirsi Ali
and how much by Van Gogh.  My impression remains that it was her true
story, but largely his writing.

It would seem that you are implying this was one of those Easy Rider
type deals, where one guy, in that case, Terry Southern is first to
conceive and draft the story, and then along comes Peter Fonda and Old-
What's-His-Name to gleep the screen credit on basis of whatever amount
of "auteuring around" with on camera ad-libbing and improvisational hi-
jinx. Is this what you're getting at here Alan?  Are you saying Van
Gogh had no right to that screen credit?

Whatever we have that we don't know about, we don't know about, and
can't take a position on it as to whether we 'have' what we don't know
(about) or not.  But it would seem that you are here to present the
revolutionary notion that we do in fact 'have' the things we don't
know about, which is a laudably optimistic way to look at it, Alan,
for which you ought to be commended, highly and uninterruptedly.

Less than probably about 49.43877897394543% of the idiots, more or
less, give or take another decimal place or two. But what I 'have' of
what I know less about is consequently, according to the Hope
Doctrine, the greater possession.

Your "faceplants" are like roses to a prima donna during a curtain
call, Alan--whether you ever even know it or not.


author: Stapler

text:
Just Me wrote:

Are you kidding? He's scum of the earth that DARED defile the great name of
the great prophet Muhammed! Death to infidels!!


text:
On Oct 8, 9:38 pm, "Stapler" <[email]> wrote:

Permit me to re-state that . . .

Murdered by the scum-of-the-earth, but still here on earth to live
forever in the hearts of 400 million Muslim virgins and Infidels is
the art of auteur, Theo Van Gogh: the great opus he wrote, directed,
produced and paid for with his life . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGtQvGGY4S4&feature=related


text:
On Oct 9, 1:11 am, Alan Hope <[email]> wrote:

Thank you.  There's nothing I love more that being exposed publicly
for a stupid, lying asshole.

Let's do this agan, soon.


author: Alan Hope

text:
Just Me goes:

Well, do you care about accuracy, or don't you?

Do you know what imdb is?

Like Ken Branagh wrote Twelfth Night.

I see you don't know what imdb is.

Submission was written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I don't know what you're
getting so upset about. So you didn't know. Big deal. Most of you
people have something you don't know about. Count yourself
extraordinary that you know less than most people.

See how nice I am? Trying to buck you up after a severe faceplant?


author: Bob Ward

subject: How would you say "How f***ing stupid do you think I am" in Spanish?

text:
I opened up my weekly "Pennysaver" today, and found an ad the likes of
which I've never seen before.

The headline reads "Free Satellite and Free Installation"

In English, the ad continues with "1 TV $9.99 reg $99" and "2 TV's $65
reg $199"

In Spanish, it says "1 TV instalada $49 reg $159" and "2 TV Instalada
$99 reg $249"

When I called to see what kind of explanation they might offer, the
salesman at first claimed no knowledge of the offer, then claimed that
they do charge tax and shipping, but could not say whether the actual
price paid for one TV would be $9.99 (assuming the customer speaks
English).

Finally, after about 15 minutes, he gave up and asked "Look, do you
want to place an order, or do you just want to argue with me?"

Never did get any suggestion as to why there was a difference in
pricing between English and Spanish.  Any comments or ideas?


author: Marc Sindell

subject: Re: How would you say "How f***ing stupid do you think I am" in Spanish?

text:
Report it to the Attorney General's office, the Civil Rights
Commision, and Hispanic
Rights groups.

"Bob Ward" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
of
$65
Instalada
that
actual


author: JoeM

text:
ï¿½Cï¿½mo f***ing estï¿½pido usted piensa que usted piensa que soy?

On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:44:52 GMT, Bob Ward <[email]>
wrote:


author: Sonny Pro Bono

text:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:44:52 GMT, in misc.consumers Bob Ward
<[email]> wrote:

Obviously, it was in pesos.  *G*


author: Graeme

subject: Public opinion does change what Drs do

text:
No, I'm not exactly parent of the month, I'm the best parent I can think of
for my children though.

We don't keep the 'party line ' anything.  We think there's a good premise
parents can apply from the medical profession, 'first do no harm'.

We don't
vaccinate becase the law says we can, we don't tattoo our children because
the law says we can, we didn't have our son circumcised because the law said
we could,  we sacked the paediatrician who suggested we should. We don't hit
our children because the law says we can, we don't cause irreprable damage
to our children simply because the law says we can.   We believe parents
make great first teachers.


author: "CBI"

subject: Re: Public opinion does change what Drs do

text:
"Graeme" <[email]> wrote in message
news:am58i7$65s$[email]...

Harm can come from inaction as well as action. Rarely is one presented with
an option that presents no potential for harm. The dictum would be better
expressed as do as little harm as is predictably possibly.


author: PF Riley

text:
On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:40:20 -0700, "Graeme" <[email]>
wrote:

Tell me, oh wise one: When has any physician promised to "do no harm?"

When a surgeon makes an incision to remove your inflamed appendix,
doesn't he end up "harming" your abdominal wall?

PF


author: D. C. Sessions

text:
"CBI" <00docATmindspring.com> wrote:

Or even simpler, "Don't make matters worse."


author: DLB Data Systems

subject: *** NEW Motherboard/CPU Specials ***

text:
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*** Triton 437VX chipset motherboard w/256k Pipeline Burst Cache,
75-166MHz CPUs supported, on-board dual EIDE channels (up to
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sockets, 3-ISA and 4-PCI slots, Award Plug and Play BIOS)
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OR

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author: Philip Smith

subject: TOKEN RING EQUIPMENT AVAILABLE FOR SALE

text:
TOKEN RING EQUIPMENT AVAILABLE FOR SALE

ITEM             DESCRIPTION                      PRICE PAID OR     SALE PRICE
 NO.                                              CURRENT PRICE
  1   Approximately 46 Proteon Token-Ring         $750.00 ea.       $250.00 ea.
      ProNet 4/16 Lan Network Interface
      Cards (P1390 - Bus Master)
      Note: Proteon has a lifetime warranty
      program for their ProNet 4/16 Network
      Interface cards.  All are currently
      in use and running problem free.

  2   Four Proteon Token-Ring Series 70
      Intelligent Wire Centers:

      Two P7201 Intelligent Wire Centers          $1100.00 ea.      $400.00 ea.

      Two P7228 Intelligent Wire Centers          $830.00 ea.       $300.00 ea.

  3   One Proteon P7901 Group Power Supply        $211.00           $75.00
      for Series 70 Intelligent Wire
      Centers; supports up to five centers.

  4   Two IBM Token-Ring Network 8228             $480.00 ea.       $150.00 ea.
      Multistation Access Units (an eight-
      lobe wiring concentrator)

  5   Twelve IBM Token-Ring Network 8220          $2325.00 ea.      $700.00 ea.
      Optical Fiber Converters (converts
      the network signal from an electrical
      pulse on copper wire to an optical
      signal on optical fiber cable).

  6   One Rack Mounting Assembly - This           $275.00           $90.00
      assembly is used to install and
      provide power up to 7 IBM 8220s in a
      standard 19" rack.

  7   One Raylan Token-Ring TCS                   $720.00           $230.00
      Concentrator Chassis

  8   Thirteen Raylan BDC Blank face plates       $20.00 ea.        $5.00 ea.
      for the concentrator.

  9   Three Raylan Token-Ring FDC Fiber           $265.00 ea.       $85.00 ea.
      Drop Cards (These cards fit in the
      concentrator and allow you to attach
      to fiber.)

 10   Two Raylan Token-Ring TCDC Copper           $265.00 ea.       $85.00 ea.
      Drop Cards (These cards fit in the
      concentrator and allow you to attach
      to copper.)

 11   Three Raylan Token-Ring Transceivers        $275.00 ea.       $90.00 ea.
      (Interface between a copper cable and
      a dual fiber optic cable.)

 12   One Raylan Token-Ring TRCM                  $30.00            $5.00
      Concentrator manual

 13   One Raylan Token-Ring TRT Transceiver       $20.00            $5.00
      manual

For more details please contact:

  Ernie Squire                       Phone: (519)253-4232 ext. 3252
  Computing Services                 FAX:   (519)973-7083
  University of Windsor              E-mail: [email]
  401 Sunset Avenue
  Windsor, Ontario N9B 3P4

Thank-you for your interest,
Philip Smith                   |  e-mail: [email]
Systems Programmer             |  phone : (519)253-4232 ext.3252
Dept. of Computing Services    |  fax   : (519)973-7083
University of Windsor          |


author: Coleah

subject: Re: Long Awaited PROOF of the effects of MERCURY!!

text:
"JOHN" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the

First of all I do not believe that Alzheimer's is the exact same thing as
what today's youngster are being diagnosed with as autism.  Second of all,
oldsters do not ALL get Alzheimer's.

If it were the exact same thing, why did it take a lifetime to show up in
some of us 'oldsters' (certainly not at the rate of 1 in 166, as I have
heard today's youngster's rate is)?


author: David Wright

text:
In article <[email]>,
Coleah <[email]> wrote:

You are correct -- Alzheimer's is not the same as autism and not al
oldsters get Alzheimer's.

That's the rate for all autism-spectrum disorders, not full-blown
autism.

Anyway, don't expect to get facts from John.  Take a look at some of
the weirder stuff on whale.to if you don't believe me, because *he*
believes everything on that site (he maintains it).

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
       "George Bush is a gruesome boob."  -- Bill Maher


author: Allan Smith (whereever

subject: Box-count reducer

text:
ADSL2 modem (to 24mbps), backward-compatible with ADSL
WirelessG router (to 125 mbps)
Firewall and encryption up to WPA2, parental controls, estensive logging
4-port 10/100 ethernet switch
USB Print Server

One box.

www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?192853

Love this thing.

Allan


author: Dave K

subject: Re: Box-count reducer

text:
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 08:41:27 -0400, "Allan Smith"
<netsmith@(whereever).com> wrote:

  That's pretty neat.

  I still have issues with anything all-in-one though.  Part fails,
and you get to replace the entire thing.  Just a trade-off, I guess.

  I resisted the MBs with integrated sound a video too, but they are
mostly  all that way anymore.  I was able to get a MB with no
integrated video though.  I have had to give up on the sound part.<g>


subject: Re: Box-count reducer

text:
Dave,

Did I mention USR's 2-year warranty? And they will do an advance-replace
RMA, so you can get the new one before shipping the old one back, and return
shipping is on them.  ;-)

ADSL2 is somewhat mid-boggling. I'm pretty close to a DSLAM (under 150
yards), and can get up to 23.3 mbps.

Yes, it is tough to find mainboards without integrated whatevers. I've
pretty much given up trying. At least they can be disabled in BIOS.

The most common failure I see is integrated LAN, but NIC cards are
inexpensive enough. The ones I really dislike are those with integrated
video, and the provision on the board for an AGP socket, but no socket.

Allan


subject: Re: Box-count reducer

text:
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:08:55 -0400, "Allan Smith"
<netsmith@(whereever).com> wrote:

  That's not too shabby.

  That is impressive.  That is better than my company gets. (two T-1s
for 400 nodes)

  I'm a figgerin' it'll be close to a decade 'afore we get anything
like that  'round these hyar parts.<g>

  At one point, we were ahead of the curve with all electronic
switching, but I'm thinking it'll be a slow process to pull Verizon's
head out of their backside.

  Verizon is still a regulated utility here, with tariffs and all of
that.  They just do not play well with the CLECs, and the PSC is not
allowing them to sell cell phones or provide competitive services
until they do.

  Meanwhile the CLECs are cleaning up; providing service at fractions
of the cost of Verizon.  Add to that the mostly rural environment, and
you can imagine...

  I tried DSL here.  I am about 8,000 feet from the CO, but the best
we could get out of the connection was about the same as a 56k
dial-up.  Cable works pretty well though.

  I'm beginning to come around on that though.  Failures are rare,
although I recently had one that died completely.  Thing is, it is
pretty much a 3-4 year cycle but you can't fix anything more than a
couple years old because it changes; power supply connections, ATA vs.
SATA.  It's just a bunch of throw-away stuff anymore.  Probably been
that way for  more years than I care to admit.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: The Media Destroyed New Orleans

text:
I agree with jaybee.  Also, if I lost everything, and was stuck in a
shelter, maybe I'd ask for a Diet Coke... because it would be a small
source of pleasure in a world gone mad, and it was the only part of my
world I could control - what I consume, when all is lost.  Also, I'm a
vegetarian, so offer me the choice of turkey or ham and now what do I
do?   I guess get spat on by the "selfless volunteers" going Out Of
Their Way to help us wretched folks.

"She's the sort of woman who lives for others."  beat  "You can tell
the others by their hunted expressions.  (Oliver Goldsmith, I think)

And just because a shelter is free doesn't mean people want to be
there.  This alleged friend is indeed an asshole.


author: Suzy Charnas

subject: Re: The Media Destroyed New Orleans

text:
In article <dgp5as$aoq$[email]>,
 "[email]" <[email]> wrote:

Hadn't large numbers of these folks been evacuated (finally!) from
the Convention Center in N.O., where they had endured days of
neglect, filth, seeing others die right in front of them for lack of
water, medicine, and food?  Given what they had already had to put up
with -- many of them really did think that they'd been sent to the
Convention Center and then not allowed to try to find their way to dry
ground across the river because somebody was going to break down the
levees and use the opportunity to drown the lot of them.  This indicates
the kind of strain they were under, apart from being terrified about the
fates of friends and family -- particular older relatives -- whom they
had lost contact with and who were probably still sitting on rooftops or
standing in flooding attics trying to hold their heads up out of the
rising water long enough to be rescued.  The general lack of any
organization at all added to the panic-atmosphere.

If large numbers of the refugees were not on their best behavior, it's
hardly a surprise; some of these folks are going to take a long time to
recover the normal trust in other people that good manners are based on.
Tell your Houston buddy to go sit on the scorching rooftop of a home he
knows he won't be able to go back to, in 100 + degree weather with no
drinking water, no food, and helicopters flying over them all day
without ever bothering to drop any supplies, let alone come down and get
them.  When he's had a week of that, let's see how courteous and
"grateful" he is for a sandwich.

Disaster only brings out the best in everybody in movies.  Your friend
needs to grow up some before passing judgment on people whose
experiences he can't begin to imagine.

SMC


author: MC

subject: Re: The Media Destroyed New Orleans

text:
In article <dgp5as$aoq$[email]>,
 "[email]" <[email]> wrote:

I think if it was life & death you'd eat the meat. But if not, you'd
remove the meat and eat the bread.


subject: Re: The Media Destroyed New Orleans

text:
I usually agree with 100% of what you say. But I don't agree with this.

Not at all.

In my direct experience of disaster, and in following other disasters
through the media, I'd say it brings out the best in some and the worst
in others, and neither in most.


author: David C. Horan

subject: Zenith Laptop Hard Drives - New and Used

text:
ZENITH LAPTOPS - NEW and USED HARD DRIVES FROM ZENITH:

These are for ZNOTE FLEX laptops.
Specifically purchased for ZNOTE FLEX Model ZPD-1134-KF.
Will fit many other Zenith laptops per Zenith rep.

1.) Brand New 450 meg. "PLUG AND PLAY"  -  "MOUNTED"
     ADH-13 HDD450MB IDE 2.5 19mm.
     Zenith Part # 100-2108.
     Purchased direct from Zenith Factory.
     Uses Seagate Model ST9550AG.
     Formatted with DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11 at the factory.
     Have all receipts.
     We paid $509 plus tax.
     Yours for $275.

2.) Used 200 meg.
     Formatted with DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.11.
     Doublespaced to around 400 meg.
     Purchased direct from Zenith Factory.
     Uses Seagate Model ST9240AG.
     Good as new shape.
     New cost $379.
     Yours for $125.

Will sell both for $350.  FedEx 2nd day shipping at my expense.
US Postal Money Orders preferred.
COD cash as an alternate.

Contact:

Dave Horan
1012 North Harriman Street
Appleton, WI 54911

(414)830-0682 eves and weekends.

[email]
[email]
[email]