subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Nah, I think Wall Street celebrated greed.... Gordon Gekko reb braces shot
up in sales after that film came out and I know many *ankers who relished
being likened to the character.

"Black Ops" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
we
Room"


author: Jacques E. Bouchard

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
"Black Ops" <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

    	Yes, and Scrooge is really a symbol of redemption, but what are ya
gonna do? People don't always retain the impression intended by the author.

jaybee


author: Janek Czekaj

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Is that like vaseline? Or is it some kind of pasta dish?

And probably will not be for a long, long, long time. Only losing 92% of
savings in a dot.con bubble is obviously not enough! :-)

"tracy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Skip Press

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] (tracy) wrote:

Tracy, what are you hinting at there? Can we find out more on
alt.kundalini (assuming there is one)?


author: Dena Jo

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Lois:

death, to
in

How could Jesus lose his faith in God if he was God???  That's the thing
about the New Testament I've never gotten.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 wes <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote:

Well, I looked at the Power of Myth tapes and if you watch him there,
he's not real keen on Christianity AS CURRENTLY CONSTITUTED (not
shouting, just caps for emphasis). Here's an excerpt from "An Open Life:
Joseph Campbell in conversation with Michael Toms":

p. 90 -

Campbell: As I said, the great message of the Oriental teachers is
already in our mystic tradition. For instance, there's a wonderful
little mystic named Angelus Silesius (1624-1677) -- I always think o
fhim as a little man because he rendered his message in very short,
two-line verses, one of which runs:

"Of what use, Gabriel, your message to Marie,
Unless you can now give the same message to me!"

In other words, the Christ should be born in him. And if it's not born
in you, well then, the religion has worked. And whether you call it the
Christ, or the Buddha, or cosmic consciousness, or whatever, it's the
one message that these different religions are delivering; and unless
you read them in terms of an inner life, you have lost your own ground
and base.

Toms: So Jesus as a teacher of experience has been lost in Christian
culture, which leaves us with the College of Cardinals telling us what
to do.

Campbell: Exactly. You can see this in the Gospel According to Thomas,
when Jesus says, "He who drinks of my mouth will be become as I am, and
I am he." Now, that's Gnosticism, that's Buddhism. We're all
Buddha-beings; we're all Christ-beings. And the difference between you
and me and the Buddha is that he knew h ow to live in terms of
Buddha-consciousness instead of his own individual interests; and living
in Christ is comparable, using the Christian terminology. It's
fascinating to compare the language of Christian and Buddhist teachings.
And it's in this comparative way that you can learn from another
traditionï¿½ï¿½you see an aspect of your own. And it's particularly
important for us since our tradition has been institutionally
dominated--we need the Orient to teach us about the aspect of personal
experience in religion.

Toms: There may even have been an actual interchange between the
Buddhists and the early Christians.

Campbell: I'm completely convinced that there was. All along the Silk
Road from Aleppo to Ch'ang-an in China there were Nestorian, Christian,
Manichaean, and Buddhist chapels and temples.

I agree to some degree. The book referenced (and the chapter) talks
about that a lot. So do Campbell's "The Masks of God" (both volumes).

You're not being very clear or specific so it's hard to know what you
actually mean. "Everywhere?" It's not at my local K-Mart.

It's pretty clear to me that Lucas, as heavily influenced as he was by
Campbell, might fall right in line with the types of stuff I mentioned
in my first post. And as I said, the Oriental influence is all over
Amidala's costumes, etc.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
On Mon, 20 May 2002 20:50:09 -0400, "Plotner Robert Glenn"
<[email]> wrote:

A very astute observation!  (I agree, for the most-part.)

Doug

Just a virtual guy... in a virtual world.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <acc5k5$rit$[email]>,
 "Plotner Robert Glenn" <[email]> wrote:

I was pretty much with you until that last bit. I think a great number
of people are effecting inner change upon themselves, at least in my
country. I see Buddhism growing. I see the Catholic church being forced
to confront its self-generated demons. I see people taking life and
family and institutions and the goodness of life much more seriously
after the unfortunate tragedy of 9/11. I see a decent enough balance of
political parties that makes them keep each other on their toes, and
fringe political parties influencing and therefore determining outcomes
of Presidential elections (Perot, then Nader). But then, I'm a cockeyed
optimist a lot of the time, the American spirit to the core, and I think
that's all right.

I don't need no stinkin' Jedi, but I like the concept, whether Lucas is
still with it or not.

The movie was damned entertaining as beautiful popcorn fluff goes, and
although Natalie Portman runs in a rather dorky fashion, if that's the
next generation of filmic womanhood, we're doin' all right.  :-)


author: tracy

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
"Janek Czekaj" <[email]> wrote in message news:<FklG8.2742$[email]>...

ahahaha!  :)   I'll go for pasta dish.  tetrazzini, kundalini,
whatsamatter for you!

yes, probably not.

yikes!

Tracy


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
er, are you asking me what it is? I'll say, if you want.

You could find out more on alt.yoga, however, don't assume
that everything you read on there comes from a knowledgable
source.  Knowledgable people on there = Wade Humenik, Jody.
I know the best books on it.

Tracy


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Skip Press <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Oh, to be more specific:  prana, chi, ki.  It's everywhere.
kundalini is more specific to the human body, and more intense.

They are two sides of the same coin.  As used in Star Wars, I would
think both are referred to.

Tracy


author: Ovum

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Dena Jo writes:

Think of a set of triplets.  Pam, Tina and Marie Rayburn.  The Rayburn Triplets
are individuals with different personalities, but they look alike and share the
same DNA.  There is not now, never has been, and never will be, any other set
of triplets exactly like the Rayburn Triplets anywhere else in the universe.

Same thing with the God family.  They are three separate individuals who share
unique "DNA" unlike any other being that ever has or ever will exist.

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


author: wes

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I may have misunderstood you.  I meant to contend specifically the line
you wrote: "I also don't think he believed in the virgin birth at all."
I thought you were saying, "Campbell probably believes that Jesus' real
father was a Roman soldier and that the virgin birth never occurred."
My point was that whether or not the virgin birth occurred is irrelevant
given the "myth" context, because Campbell's idea of mythology is that
it transcends any literal occurrences.  This agrees with your comment
about Christianity as currently constituted, but also suggests that the
true identity of Jesus's father is irrelvant.

In fact, it is indirectly at your local K-Mart.  Just check the toys
section.  While the merchandise is a product of advertising, the stories
behind the characters is not.  For example, Pokemon is a story about a
boy who learns to control and train these little monsters -- but that
ultimately the battles are fought by him.  Sound a little like Star
Wars?  Given all of the harnessable power of the force, and all of the
power of technology, what stops the Empire in the end?  Vadar comes to
grips with his humanity and throws the Emperor over an edge.  That's one
reason why some Spider-Man fans don't like the organic
web-shooters... because the webs were always something that came from
Peter Parker's humanity, not some random spider bite.

If not at K-Mart, you can check the comic book store.  Lots of stories
with mythological resonance there.

If not the comic book store, check the video game section.  Any RPG such
as Final Fantasy is heavy in hero-quest themes.  Even some of the most
violent first person shoot-em-up games have moral undertones in their
stories (the ancient Roman mythologies weren't without violence... why
do we think it's so terrible that it surfaces in popular media today?).

Generally, look to the things that kids love.  The purpose of mythology
is to teach lessons that will help or be fulfilling in the adult life.
The kids need it the most.

And for the adults, you can look to fiction, or (obviously) movies.
Films have replaced the old verbal storytelling arts.

Ahhh... there's a thin line between stereotypes and myths.  I'm not
exactly sure where it is, but I do know that it exists.

That aside, in the case of the Naboo garb, I think what you're referring
to is more appropriately called a semaphore.  It's a visual sign to
immediately conjure up the ideas that the storyteller would like us to
have.  Want to emote the mystical unknown?  Slap on "Oriental" patterns.
Want to emote evil?  Give the guy dark sunken eyes and black robes.
Want to emote a heroic purpose?  Give the guy strong jaws and a proper
posture.  Want to emote wisdom?  Take away physical strength...

(Tangent: the term "Oriental", by the way, has fallen out of fashion
precisely because it's invented -- it's an exoticization of a culture as
somehow not understandable, as being from this made up place called the
"Orient".  The preferred term is "Asian".)

Remember, the point of the myths is not materialistic.  It's not in what
characters are wearing, or how they speak, or how multicultural they are
-- it's the story.  The point is in what the story has to tell us about
the human experience.  Campbell rarely talks about the materialistic
aspects of a culture, and when he does, it's to point out symbolism.  He
concentrates primarily on the stories.

Wes


author: Paulo Joe Jingy

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Jeaibe wrote:

You're right--the Roman persecution of Catholics was pretty brutal.  But Romans
were pagans, at the time, not atheists.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I should point out that I personally did not lose 92% of savings in the
dot.con bubble... However, several reports since then have worked out that
the collapse in tech shares accounted for a 92% fall in stock prices between
the height of the bubble and the collapse...

And, although many people did not lose directly by investing in dot.con
shares it should be remembered that most of us did lose indirectly by having
our pension fund-managers investing, often without our knowledge, in them...
The Telecoms market alone lost an incredible 100 BILLION US Dollars in the
past two years...

Of course, that money went somewhere and there is a small but incredibly
wealthy group of people sitting on a beach somewhere... Two hundred years
ago they would have been rounded up and had their heads chopped off...

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_17/b3678084.htm

Janek.

"tracy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
message news:<FklG8.2742$[email]>...


author: Ron Fellowes

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] (tracy) wrote:

Kinda like here, huh?

I think the "force" stuff hints at the things you mentioned, but I'm not
sure kundalini fits in, does it? Isn't that tantric sexual?


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Dena Jo writes:

One clue that Jesus knew who he was is when, at age 12, Jesus amazed the
religious teachers with His understanding of spiritual truth.

Later, as an adult, Jesus told some people that He had existed before Abraham
(who had died something like 1,400 years earlier).  They picked up rocks to
stone Him.  Only God had been around that long, and they couldn't deal with
Jesus calling Himself God.

Jesus kept telling people who He was, and proving it by bringing the dead back
to life and stuff like that.  People didn't like some guy who looked like Joe
Schmoe telling them that He was King of the Universe, though.  We like to rule
the world ourselves.

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Lois:

share

I actually don't have any problem grasping the Holy Trinity.  And I
understand that God (the Son) took human form as Jesus of Nazareth and lived
a short albeit significant life on Earth.

My question is this:  While in that human form as Jesus of Nazareth, did
Jesus not know who he really was?


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 wes <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote:

A page later in the same book excerpt you snipped "An Open Life",
Campbell says this --

"Look at the doctrine of Christ from the standpoint of Buddhism, and the
Christ is a Boddhisattva -- the one who comes with love to participate
in the sorrows of the world. But I think too much has been made of the
suffering of Jesus. There is another kind of crucifix which is called
"Christ Triumphant" -- he's there with eyes open. Augustine says Christ
went to the cross as a bridegroom to his bride -- there's that movement
into life with zeal. All life is suffering, but the Buddha and the
Christ were concerned with fulfilling the spiritual dynamic."

Bad comparison and you're getting away from the spirituality completely.
There is spirituality in Star Wars. There is none whatsoever in Pokemon
or Spiderman, neither of which have any real world myth elements at all,
just a bunch of made-up stuff based on nothing but imagination.

Resonance isn't is.

You're straying even further and lumping things together that really
don't have coherence with each other.

The kids need it? I hope you're not condoning Pokemon here...

No they haven't replaced them. The book business is booming like never
before, and so is the film business. The recent BEA convention was a
smash success. (Book Expo America) What a large bit of this idea hunger
is due to the void of true spiritual direction in modern Western
society, which is exactly the point I was getting at in the first place.

Semaphore, schmemaphore. You don't impress me with educational
classification claptrap language. Lucas used Oriental costumes because
he likes them; influences from Campbell, Buddhism, but more importantly,
Kurosawa.

Oriental originally referred to "east" (meaning where the sun rises).
It's from old French "oriri" (to rise). It's a perfectly good term.
Preferred term by who, the know-nothing idiot P.C. crowd? Joseph
Campbell's "Masks of God" are divided into two volumes, one Occidental,
one Oriental.

Are you trying to tell me something you think I don't know? You've been
ciricling around without really saying anything. I said that "the Force"
is popular at least partially due to the spiritual void in modern
society, where traditional religions are falling short. It's what
Campbell spoke of, what influenced Lucas. You haven't added anything,
just putzed with ideas.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Um, I think you need to read something about the Inquisition or go watch
'The Mission'.

"Paulo Joe Jingy" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Romans


author: Alan Brooks

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Janek Czekaj said:

having
them...

Actually the money didn't go anywhere.  It never existed except on balance
books and in the wet dreams of 22 year old CEO's hoping to cash out before
the crash.  The trillions that disappeared from the economy at the end of
2000 went to the same place your dreams go when you pop awake at the end of
a linear algrebra lecture.

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- Do CEO Androids Dream of Fleecing Electric Sheep?


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Ron Fellowes <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

well, I'm too new to comment.  I'm still chugging down the beginner
screenwriting books.

Sure it does!  But in a rather superfical manner, as someone farther
down this thread mentioned.  For what Star Wars is, though, I wouldn't
really want it to take itself too seriously - that would take the fun
out of it.

Tantricism is only one method for dealing with kundalini, and it's
not really about sex, at all.  Kundalini is a latent possibility
in all humans - and it arises within all traditions. It's not a system
or technique.

For example, St. Theresa and St. John of the Cross were both
K-awakened.

Tracy


author: Plotner Robert Glenn

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
"Dena Jo" <[email]> wrote:

My reading (and I stress that this is a personal reading and not a scholarly
thesis) is that Jesus was a man, one of hundreds of self-proclaimed prophets
at the time, who was seduced by the pronouncements of his followers into
believing that he was the Messiah. It was a matter of the ego setting itself
up before the message. I am more than the messenger -- *I* am the way, the
only way. In fact, he entered Jerusalem as a King expecting to be crowned
with palm branches being laid before him. Obviously, this invited an outcry
from Jewish leaders -- Jesus was not their King -- he was a dangerous,
political troublemaker. The Romans made a political bargain to maintain the
peace and arrested him. Through everything that followed, he still believed
that God would intercede, punish his accusers, and crown him the rightful
King. It was not until the crucifixion and the sudden, horrible realization
that there would be no heavenly intervention, that he was a man alone facing
a real death. Hence the sudden, painful outcry, "My God, why hast Thou
forsaken me?" This is not a cry from someone who has entered willingly as a
sacrificial lamb. But with that abandonment came a real point of
transformation, not as a martyr within a passion play, but a personal
transformation, the dissolution and release of the ego. It was necessary to
his own personal journey. "It is done." The true symbolism of the cross is a
dying to the self, the crucifixion of the blind ego, of the surrendering of
the self's imposition of itself, of its Kingship, in lieu of the actual
journey. The realization is that there is no singular divine birth right.
The revelation is that all beings, all things are manifest of God, if they
too awaken to it. To come full circle, then, despite how the
account came down from followers with their own political aims and agenda
decades after the events, we have something that very closely mirrors
Eastern mythology, the Buddha beneath the bo tree.

Best regards,
Robert


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I don't quite see how this has anything to do with the belief that there
was a Jesus and that he literally had no father.  I'm not arguing that
Campbell was satisfied with religion as currently constituted.  I'm
arguing that it doesn't matter to him whether or not there really
existed a man name Jesus with no literal father.  The "Open Life" quote
does not say anything about Campbell's belief that the virgin birth
occurred at all, or that Jesus's father was in reality a Roman soldier.
This is your statement:

"I also don't think he believed in the virgin birth at all. Wouldn't
suprise me if he believed the story of Jesus' father being a Roman
soldier."

My understanding of this statement is that you believe Campbell did not
believe that the virgin birth ever happened.  Correct me if I'm
wrong... so far, I haven't gotten a clear argument.

My argument is that it's irrelevant to Campbell whether or not it
*really* happened.  What *is* relevant is the story's impact on human
understanding.

Yes, I'm getting away from spirituality.  I'm talking about the meaning
and knowledge that we obtain from mythic stories.  For some (like
myself), there is no difference between that and spirituality.

At any rate, hasn't the topic already drifted?  You were talking about
Amidala's Oriental clothes.

I'm not arguing that Pokemon is a religion or that it should be, but the
mentality that allows one to arbitrarily classifying a group of stories
as spiritual and another as "made-up stuff based on nothing but
imagination" is the mentality that starts holy wars.

I'm not straying.  I'm lumping things together that share common
mythological threads in their storylines.

Yes, the kids need it.  And to "condone" Pokemon implies that there's
something wrong with its existence.

The point is that the mythologies are present to help us cope with the
world and our experiences, and to teach us moral lessons to live by.
You get those from cartoons.  Cartoons are no different than fairy tales
or stories of Zeus running off into battle.  It's just that they have a
commercial bent, and that they're aimed for kids of a considerably
younger age.

My goof.  I meant the "aural" storytelling arts, as in the ones that are
spoken and acted out by a single person.  But actually, I'm not
convinced enough that films have replaced those storytelling arts to
continue arguing this one.

The claptrap language is crucial in this case, because semaphores aren't
myths.  There's a fundamental distinction.  Semaphores are physical and
visual.  Myths are abstract.  You don't hear about the "myth of wearing
Oriental clothes."  Or the "myth of having horns sprouting from your
head."  Myths are abstract, like "the hero's journey", or "gaining
experience through trials", or "succeeding your mentor", or "finding
your spiritual partner."

Nigger -- from Latin nigr- meaning "black".  Just because it has
established etymological or academic roots doesn't mean that it's not
offensive.

And just because it has negative connotations doesn't mean that it's
offensive either.  For example, I think "queer" is a terrible word for a
homosexual, yet it's commonly used throughout the gay community.

I originally wrote my post specifically to argue with your statement:

"I also don't think he believed in the virgin birth at all. Wouldn't
suprise me if he believed the story of Jesus' real father being a Roman
soldier."

So, yes, I am trying to tell you something I think you don't know.

But as far as "the Force" being popular at least partially because of a
spiritual void...  I'm guilty for mixing up the concepts "spiritual" and
"mythological".

Wes


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Janek Czekaj wrote:

I've studied this for over thirty years.

Most atrocities attributed to most religions are committed by people, who are
*not* following the tenets of their faith, not by people who are.  An honest
study of the positive humanitarian accomplishments of Catholicism, far
outweighs any negatives committed by those who weren't following their faith.
(I say this as a former Bible College student, who used to be trained to hate
Catholics).

But this isn't really the appropriate place to discuss this.  There are
numerous boards and news groups where these debates go on, non-stop.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
You are too, too, too funny, Alan.  (Or tooï¿½ funny if you're in a linear
algebra lecture or scared of commas.)


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
That's partly right... but alot of people who helped drive up the market,
and the market hype, did benefit from it... "Buy XXXX shares," says Analyst1
knowing full well that he has a big pile of XXXX shares ready to sell.

"Alan Brooks" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ace5dm$mlq$[email]...
the
years
of


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] (tracy) wrote in response to:

You mean they had their Jed Eyes opened?


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Plotner Robert Glenn writes:

A follower such as John the Baptist?  Who wrestled with doubts at the end of
his life and asked Jesus if He was the Messiah or whether they should "expect
someone else?"

Or do you mean followers such as Peter, James and John, who all fled when Jesus
was arrested?  (One guy was in such a hurry to leave that he left his clothes
behind and ran away nekkid!)

Jesus had a tough time getting people to (1) believe He was the Messiah, and
(2) understand what that meant.

Justs wanted an earthly kingdom?  Is that why Jesus turned down Satan's offer
of "all the kingdoms of the world" when He first started His ministry?

Or maybe that's why after feeding the 5,000 Jesus withdrew to a mountain by
Himself because He knew that the crowd "intended to come and make Him king by
force."

Um, that's not what He repeatedly told the disciples.  Reminds me of the
argument about Jesus being either a Liar, a Lunatic, or Lord.

Not only did He willingly sacrifice Himself, but He foretold it all.  The
Jewish Bible has hundreds of prophecies about the Messiah (all of which Jesus
fulfilled) that were written hundreds of years before His earthly incarnation.
Since Jesus existed before the dawn of time, and since He inspired the prophets
to write the prophecies, how could He not know what was going to happen to
Himself?

Kinda.  Humans were created in God's image, meaning we all have freedom to
choose how we will act, we have personality, and we will continue to exist when
our physical bodies have dropped away.  We're also built to have a relationship
with God, but most of us don't pursue it.  That's what causes the emptiness and
frustration: not living out the goal of our creation.

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
In article <acfd5b$91g$[email]>,
 "Plotner Robert Glenn" <[email]> wrote:

Very nicely stated, Plotner. (Your name's really Plotner?)


author: Joe Myers

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
"Plotner Robert Glenn" <[email]> wrote

[snips]

of

May God have mercy on your heathen soul!

What it's really about is blaming Lesbians for the World Trade Center
bombings.  What it's really about is forcing children to pray a
government-approved prayer every morning in public schools.  What it's
really about is bombing and shooting abortion providers.  What it's really
about is sending your cash to the man on the TV who'll wave his hands and
claim to cure your goiter.  What it's really about is stopping teenaged
loose women from wearing thongs.  It's about condoning slavery, subjecting
women to second-class status and burning books.

Are you saved?

Joe Myers
"For what?"


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Thanks, Plotner.  Interesting thoughts.

I was actually hoping to get a born-again Christian's response to my
question.  Unless, of course, you're a born-again Christian, in which case,
I guess that's what I got.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
This is a topic for a good discussion, preferably with a few cold beers
outside a pub by a river on a Summer's evening...

"Plotner Robert Glenn" <[email]> wrote in message
news:acfd5b$91g$[email]...
scholarly
prophets
itself
outcry
the
believed
realization
facing
a
to
a
of


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Not everyda you seek Jesus, Buddah and Pokemon in the same thread :-)

"wes" <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote in message
news:[email]...
birth
matters.
Life:


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 wes <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote:

Note I said "wouldn't surprise me." That "Roman solider was really the
father of Christ is getting wayyyyy off-track into Holy Blood, Holy
Grail type of territory and I never saw it in connection with Campbell.

As far as correcting you, I will. You're wrong. Here's Campbell from
"The Serpent's Bride" chapter of The Masks of God: Occidental Mythology,
p. 27-28 in my copy --

"The reader recalls, perhaps, the Orphic legend cited in Primitive
Mythology, of how, while the maiden goddess sat there, peacefully
weaving a mantle of woold on which there was to be a representation of
the universe, her mother contrived that Zeus should learn of her
presence; he approached in the form of an immense snake. And the virgin
conceived the ever-dying, ever-living god of bread and wine, Dionysus,
who was born and nurtured in that cave, torn to death as a babe, and
resurrected.

"Comparably, in the Christian legend, derived from the same archaic
background, God the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove approached the
Virgin Mary and she -- through the ear -- conceived God the Son, who was
born in a cave, died and was resurrected, and is present hypostatically
in the bread and wine of the Mass. For the dove, no less than the
serpent, was an attribute and companion of the Great Goddess of the
per-Homeric, pre-Mosaic East."

So now do you think Campbell believed the virgin birth of Jesus really
happened?

No, it's entirely relevant in this context because in The Phantom Menace
Lucas flirted with social disaster in the U.S. by saying that Anakin
Skywalker did not have a real flesh and blood father, comparing him to
Christ to most of America, which -- to me, anyway, I haven't called
Lucas and he probably wouldn't verify -- shows a direct Campbell
influence and belief.

Pokemon is not a "mythic story." It's silly Japanese bullshit. Spiderman
is a fun movie. It is not a mythic story and will never be recounted as
myth and REALITY like the stories we're talking about here.

Ah bullshit.

Pokemon and Spiderman are right up there with Buddha and Jesus? I'm
gonna have to get Yoda to come slap some sense into you.

Talk to a few million parents like myself who had to put up with that
obsessive and expensive Pokemon bullshit when it was popular and you'll
find that we do indeed think there's something VERY wrong with its
existence.

Right. Bugs Bunny and Marvin the Martian. You betcha, that's my role
model, uh huh. You have a serious differentiation disorder, dood.

Gee, but that's just wrong again. I used to write for Storytelling
magazine and am familiar with some of the top aural storytellers in the
country, and know a guy who made a fantastic documentary on same
(Berkeley Hudson). So aural storytelling is doing very, very well these
days.

OK, I'll grant you that, but I was making the point of Lucas having
Oriental influences (Campbell's writings, Kurosawa in a second post) and
that these "semaphores" were reflective of the philosophical
underpinnings of the movie.

I don't know where you live, but I don't know anybody who would kick my
ass over "Oriental." Having grown up near a town that billed itself as
"Home of the Blackest Land and the Whitest People" and never liking
racism from a tiny age, I'm very familiar with nigger and know quite a
number of people who would attempt to whop on my ass over that word.

And Queer As Folk is a big hit on Showtime. Do the Lenny Bruce thing and
fucking get over it -- when you use words enough and they don't affect
you any more in a negative fashion, they can't hurt you and they lose
power. That's why the P.C. crowd is clueless bunch of FUCKING IDIOTS.

Well, you just blew it big time on that one, didn't you, Bubba?

That's OK. I think it's goddamned pathetic that such a spiritual void
exists in the first place that "wanting to be Jedi" or have the Force
with you could fill. Most of that is due to the atheistic, know-it-all,
Hillary Clinton socialist, dumbshit P.C. crowd, of course.  And before
you start, I've worked with those morons at more than one college where
I taught. They're poison to humanity.

But in the end, the Star Wars flicks are just entertaining movies,
that's all.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Paulo Joe Jingy wrote:

(Should have been something like this).

An honest study of the Catholic Church, will show that the positive humanitarian
accomplishments of Catholicism, far outweighs any negatives committed by those
who weren't following their faith.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] (Ovum) wrote:

Boy, that's one of the nicest statements about the core truths of
Christianity that I've seen, Lois.

My personal belief is that any trepidation Jesus had about what was
going on in his life came from the fact that the prophecies were indeed
playing out. Of course, I think he purposely made some of them playing
out, like riding into Jerusalem on a donkey as it was predicted the
Messiah would do. Hoo boy, did that set Caiaphus and the Sanhedrin into
freak-out mode -- how dare he!?

Of course, I'm firmly convinced that Jesus' "lost years" included an
extended visit with Buddhists and in the East and that's why there are
still legends of Esau there. There's even a place in Japan where they
claim Jesus was buried, but that's another story altogether.

What is clear is that Jesus was very definitely a wise rabbi at a young
age and probably raised in the Essene cult which is real mystic stuff.
Add to that an adept (at the least) picking up the wonders of the East
and communing with spiritual masters there, and you have quite a
package.

If you feel that we are all in possession of Godhead (the Son of God
stuff and encompassing what Buddha might call Mother Light) then the
truth is that Heaven is all around us but we just cannot live it. And if
you feel that Heaven can indeed come to pass on Earth and persist for a
thousand years, well, that's spiritually encouraging, and even aligns
with the Dalai Lama's promise to continuing reincarnating as long as
their is one suffering being on Earth. If you feel that what is
necessary to "believe in Jesus, doesn't matter what you did, he'll take
responsibility for it, you don't have to, ticket to Heaven, zap you're
out of here, no matter how good a life those other people lived, they
can't go if they don't have the Jesus ticket" then that Heaven will be a
longer time coming.

MHO.

(But to keep this on topic, I actually think storytelling and movies can
contribute toward the Earthly Heaven Jesus envisioned. Note I said
can...)


author: Robert Glenn Plotner

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
The New Testament is a set of inconsistent, sometimes contradictory books
written by and for different sects many decades after the events in
question. Sort of like trying to reconstitute a folk story fifty years later
without the benefit of any documentation and very few remaining first hand
accounts. How much of this is going to be accurate, and how much of it is
going to reflect the slant a particular sect's view? There is an ongoing
debate even among the top Christian scholars as to how much of that which is
attributed to him that Jesus actually said. They meet each year with new
research and vote on it. Almost no red lettering is left. As constituted,
the NT is not a singular, cohesive work dictated from God. There are also
lots of other books that were excluded from the official doctrine because
they didn't jive with the church's politics. I don't mean to belittle it,
but this the problem you run into if you demand a literalist interpretation.
You cannot look too closely or ask too many questions because it threatens
the edifice of literal belief. A church based on literalism by necessity
loses its mythology. There can no longer be any pliability, any
applicability to the individual's life and quest(ions) except to answer them
by rote and doctrine. The doctrine itself becomes the hardened idol
obscuring the mystery. One must either accept it or be a heretic. That is
the kind of allegiance reserved for political states not for a spiritual
existence. Perhaps this is why the Christian-political Right time and again
touts this as a Christian nation as set forth by the founding fathers.
Perhaps this is why Thomas Jefferson rewrote the New Testament and removed
all the miracles.

I stressed my reading is symbolical and personal. I'm not going to debate
who said what or what Jesus supposedly said to Satan unless I see a
transcript. My view is based on two things. 1) Jesus road into town with an
apparent throng of followers laying down palm branches before him. What were
they expecting? What was he expecting? 2) As he hung on the cross, he cried
out asking God why he had been forsaken. *Why* is he asking this unless he
absolutely believed from the start that he would be delivered and be crowned
King? (The Roman soldiers made a point of hanging a mock sign "King of the
Jews" above him.) This question is so utterly out of place, ungodlike, and
near blasphemy that I cannot believe it is a later invention. There are no
devils to wrestle; it is a confrontation with and ultimately a crucifixion
of one's own ego. If that isn't the stuff of a powerful mythology and
transformation, then I don't know what is. But make of it what you will. The
nation-state of the church certainly has for the last 2000 years.

Best regards,
Robert Glenn Plotner


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Ovum expounds:

Jesus
clothes

That's a great story point, that one.

And apropos those who believe that Christianity started out as--and to some
extent remains--a gay cult; pray tell, why did he have his clothes off?  I
mean, it's just the 12 guys hanging out together in a garden at night...

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

  -- "It was hot, officer, and my boa was making me itch."


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
"Skip Press" <[email]> wrote

Sorry. The new computer is dyslexic. It's Robert Glenn Plotner.

Best regards,
Plotner, Robert Glenn


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Joe Myers writes:

I was very upset at Robertson for saying that.  For one thing, it goes against
the lesson of Job, which is that sometimes Bad Things happen that really have
nothing to with the person to whom they happen.

That whole movement annoys me big time.  It's stupid, it's pointless, and it
goes against the example set by Jesus, who didn't waste time on politics or
trying to reform secular society.

Yup, that's evil.

That's evil too.

Also misguided, because it only attempts to deal with behavior.

Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America.

On the other hand, Christians played a huge role in the U.S. abolitionist
movement.

Don't even get me started.

I say we torch everything except books by Dave Barry and John Grisham.  :-)

Listen, even Jesus said that He has nothing to do with a lot of folks who call
themselves Christians.  Sitting in church doesn't make a person a Christian any
more than sitting in a garage makes you a car.

Very few people walk the walk because it's very, very hard to do.  It's much,
much easier to sit on the sidelines and call other people hypocrits for doing
the same things that you do -- not living up to everything that you know you
should be and want to be.

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
"Dena Jo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:acgf42$pcc6a$[email]...
case,

Okay, but the question as posed did not add the prerequisite. As far as I
can tell I'm a NeoPlatonic panentheist, but there's only one so I'm coining
the phrase and issuing a quarter.

Robert


author: Alex Fink

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
"Dena Jo" <[email]> wrote in message news:<acgf42$pcc6a$[email]>...

Interesting, but it supposes that the things on the gospels have
anything to do with what Jesus actually said.  Matthew, which I
believe is the last of the four gospels, is the only one that mentions
the virgin birth.  One of the fourth century church fathers (Tatian,
maybe?) makes a reference to the gospels as books with which he has no
real experience.  There's also an incredibly dense but intriguing book
called "James, the brother of Jesus" that contends Jesus was a radical
rabbi and the apostle James lead his true cult before being snuffed
out by Paul, who reinterpreted Jesus' philosophy.

This all comes on top of the fact that we have no reliable records
indicating that Jesus existed (though I'd say all this had to come
from somewhere).

Sorry to turn this into an alt.bible thread, I'll get back on the
screenwriting topic now.

I've always wanted to see a film about Jesus as a man, not a god.
When I first saw it, I disliked The Last Temptation of Christ up until
the last 40 minutes because I thought it was hyped as portraying a
human Christ and he was actually presented as a pretty supernatural
being...but I don't believe in God, so I think I was just hoping for
something that supported my worldview.

As I said above, I'd like to see a story about a whilly secular Jesus,
hopefully calling him Yeshua and using the hebrew names of the
apostles.  There's a revisionist history book about Herod which argues
that he was a good leader who cooperated with the Romans in order to
win freedoms for his people, I wouldn't mind seeing that view brought
into the concept.

And I know I should write it myself if that's what I want to see, but
I'm already working on an action movie about the existance of God and
the loyalty of Satan.  I figure I should diversify the portfolio.  Or
at least concentrate on serial killers and tits, the only things that
seem to get one an agent in New York.

Alex

...


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Not everyday  you see Jesus, Buddah and Pokemon in the same thread :-)

"Janek Czekaj" <[email]> wrote in message
news:X1AG8.3231$[email]...
real
there,
line
all."
real
irrelevant
the
the
Christ
movement
stories
one
completely.
Pokemon
all,
such
today?).
mythology
referring
patterns.
importantly,
as
the
Occidental,
what
are
about
He
been
Force"


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,

Self-serving rhetoric.  What you're saying is that you want to be able
to use language however you wish in hopes that those in earshot will
do all the work by learning to "get over it"... rather than you doing
the work of proactively considering the implications of the terms you
use.

I'll admit that "oriental" is a bit iffy on the whole hate-speech
scale.  But as a white man, is it really my perogative to go out and
use it as often as I can to help asians learn to get over it?  Should
I also go out and call as many black people "nigger" as I can to help
empty that word's meaning?  Or should I use crude sexual language
around women so that they'll eventually get used to it and won't feel
threatened?  If someone calls me a "faggot" I can either laugh and
walk away or engage in a confrontation, but neither reaction will ever
change what the perp intended thru use of the term.

You're confusing "over-used words lose their power" with "over-used
words desensitize the listener".  And I argue that communicating ideas
thru the use of language is just as physical an act as the direction
in which we walk or the crimes some might commit.  Are we to assume
that stealing or raping or murdering often enough will eventually
cause such acts to "lose their power"?  Hogwash.

Mind you, I'm not challenging free speech.  NAMBLA and the KKK enjoy
free speech, but would anyone believe that encouraging them to spread
their ideas as widely and often as possible would help racism or
pedophilia "lose its power"?

I also agree that over-use of any term will eventually dumb it down.
(the revolting "keeping it real" comes to mind...)  This may have been
all you were really saying, in which case I apologize.  But isn't it a
bit disingenuous to advise a newsgroup full of screenwriters to move
toward dumbing our language down even more than it already has been?

MPS


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I'm saying that it doesn't matter to Campbell whether or not there
existed a man named Jesus or that he had no father.  I'm saying that
what counts to him are the stories.  I'll say it again.  Whether or not
there really existed a man named Jesus with no literal father is
irrelevant because myths are about stories and their relation to the
human experience.  The example you give doesn't relate to my argument,
as it simply presents two different accounts of the same story.  In
fact, my argument is that *it doesn't matter to Campbell how the story
manifests itself, but rather it's the story that's important*.

Now that I'm home, I too can quote Campbell.  This long paragraph is an
analogy between computer software and religion.  It's from "The Power Of
Myth", page 25:

"You buy certain software, and there is a whole set of signals that lead
to the achievement of your aim.  If you begin fooling around with
signals that belong to another systme of software, they just won't work.

Similarly, in mythology--if you have a mythology in which the metaphor
for the mystery is the father, you are going to have a different set of
signals from what you would have if the metaphor for the wisdom and
mystery of the world were the mother.  And they are two perfectly good
metaphors.  *Neither one is a fact.* (emphasis added)  These are
metaphors.  It is as though the universe were my father.  It is as
though the universe were my mother.  Jesus says, "No one gets to the
father but by me."  The father that he was talking about was the
biblical father.  It might be that you can get to the fathero nly by way
of Jesus.  On the other hand, suppose you are going by way of the
mother.  There you might prefer Kali, and the hymns to the goddess, and
so forth.  That is simply another way to get to the mystery of your
life.  You must understand that each religion is a kind of software that
has its own set of signals and will work."

The mythology isn't in what Amidala is wearing (and Lucas is mistaken if
he thinks that's a way to get at the mythic underpinnings -- which I
have a feeling he doesn't believe).  The mythology is in the fact that
Good (Luke) and Evil (Vadar) are intimately intertwined, like Spider-Man
and the Green Goblin II, Batman and Joker, yin and yang, Capulets and
Montagues, Cronus and Zeus.  Whether or not any of these things really
happened is irrelevant.  Whether or not any of these things was created
for commercial intent is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that they all
share the idea that polar opposites are frequently connected.  That's
myth.

That was an ineffectual stab at creating a myth, in my opinion.  I don't
think mimicing is what Campbell had in mind in the creation of a
mythology.  What he spoke about are the thousands of masks for
essentially the same story, not any mask in particular.  Lucas was wrong
in borrowing a mask.  He is right in borrowing a story -- notice how the
important line of Jedi follows the teacher/apprentice link?  From Yoda
to Dooku to Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan to Anakin (and then from Obi-Wan to
Luke).  That's the myth of moving from childhood to adulthood, as one
apprentice ventures beyond the auspices of the master.  That's
mythology.  Not the way that they dress, or the fact that Anakin has no
father, or that they have whatever-those-things-are-called floating
around in their bloodstream, or that Naboo is a multicultural planet.
Those are merely "software signals" that vary from mythology to
mythology.

In story, yes.  In influence, no.  Granted, the body of work that is
Pokemon and the body of work that is Spider-Man are not as comprehensive
as the body of work that is either Jesus or Buddha... but the idea is
that they resonate with the same mythic themes.

In fact, the Matrix is overtly Biblical.  Neo is the "chosen one", sent
to free us from the slavery of the machine.  Jesus is the "chosen one",
sent to free us from the slavery of the material world.  The two stories
are similar--they both even have a death and resurrection.  I'm not
saying that one is up there in influence with the other... I'm saying
that Campbell's mythological theories say that *the stories are common, the
details are different.*

Campbell also makes a comparison you might consider blasphemy.  On page
21 of The Power Of Myth, Bill Moyers comments on the new Rambo action
figure, made by Cabbage Patch.  Here's what Campbell has to say about
the box, which depicts both figures:

"Those are two mythic figures.  The image that comes to my mind now is
of Picasso's Minotauromachy, an engraving that shows a great monster
bull approaching.  The philosopher is climbing up a ladder in terror to
get away.  In the bullring there is a horse, which has been killed, and
on the sacrificed horse lies a female matador who has also been killed.
The only creature facing this terrific monster is a little girl with a
flower.  Those are the two figures you have just spoken of--the simple,
innocent, childlike one, and the terrific thread.  You see the problems
of the modern day."

These insane comparisons like Jesus vs. Spider-Man are the backbone of
Campbell's mythological studies.  He compared completely different
religions to each other, theorized that "the themes are timless, and the
inflection is to the culture." (p. 13, Power Of Myth).  He was the first
to relate Star Wars to mythology, for cryin' out loud!

That's the parent in you speaking.  But there's an ongoing fight within
the Pokemon storyline about how the Pokemon are not slaves and are to be
treated in fairness to humans, despite the fact they do not resemble us.
That's a pretty modern thought, isn't it?  Twenty years from now,
they'll realize how silly the playing cards were, but they'll remember
the lessons that the stories taught.

(just noticed that it should be "oral", not "aural")

Oral storytelling is not doing as well as it was, say, half a millenium
ago in a Native American tribe.  I haven't heard a storyteller for
probably fifteen years.  I'm willing to wager that it's the same for
most of my friends.  Oral storytelling may not be dead, but it's not
thriving in the same way it used to.  More importantly, it's not serving
the same function in society that it used to.  Instead, media is--books
and film (I was wrong in originally saying that it was solely film).

I went to highschool in a Black neighborhood, and I went to college in a
predominantly Asian town.  I have pretty intimate knowledge of racism,
as you too might, and know plenty of people who would whoop your ass
over the word "oriental."

Well, if that's your take on it, I feel like I've wasted quite a bit of
energy typing up this post.

Wes


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Skip Press writes:

Whoa -- you really paid attention in Sunday school!  :-)

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Alan Brooks writes:

Very funny Mr. Brooks.  I think the man may have been a Scottish Israeli, if
you catch my drift.  :-)  Here's the illuminating passage:

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared.  With him was a
crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of
the law, and the elders.

Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss [note to
Alan: it could have been a Eurpean-style kiss!] is the man; arrest him and lead
him away under guard."  Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed
him [note to Alan: . . .  ah, never mind].  Then one of those standing near
drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

"Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus, "that you have come out with swords and
clubs to capture me?  Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts,
and you did not arrest me.  But the Scriptures must be fulfilled."  Then
everyone deserted him and fled.

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus.  When
they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

Scholars think the flashy dresser was a wealthy young man named Mark, who,
later in life, wrote the shortest and most action-packed of the four Gospels.

Lois

------------------------------------------------
You can complain about thorns on roses,
or you can rejoice over roses on thorns.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
"Ovum" <[email]> wrote

[snips]

:-)
call

Yeah, Lois, but it's beginning to look like that joke about lawyers:
"Ninety-fiver percent of them ruin it for the honest ones."

It's been a while since I read "The Jefferson Bible," where Thomas Jefferson
collected *only* the teachings of Jesus and cut out the distortions and
additions of Paul and other apostles.  It's a pretty solid prescription for
conducting one's life (although it still has its sticky points, like turning
the other cheek and loving your enemy).  But it seems like any connection
between Christ's teachings and Christianity is  coincidental to the point of
accidental.

Joe Myers
  "Pass the Lord, and
Praise the Ammunition"


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] ([email]) wrote in response to my writing:

It is indeed. You mixed that up just like you mixed up who posted what
on your post, making it look like "wes" said something I said. But then,
you're with AO-Hell so such things are to be expected.

Wasn't my advice at all. My inclination is that people who feel the
effect of words might do well to remember the old sticks and stones can
break my bones but words can never hurt me admonition. That's what Lenny
Bruce was saying in a way. I think nigger is a ridiculous term, but when
gangsta rap exults in its use (albeit the alternate spelling of niggah),
and that is now widespread in the culture, it's a bit of "clean up your
own backyard first."

As for the use of the word "Oriental" as objectional, that one's
patently absurd. If you say Asia do you think of India or Pakistan? Most
don't, but they might be thought of as being in the Orient. Orient and
Occident are traditional terms to define East and West, and one of
Joseph Campbell's books is about Oriental philosophy. When I used the
word, I was referring to maybe Chinese, maybe Japanese costumes worn on
Queen/Senator Amidala's planet. Would Asian have worked as well? Maybe,
but who cares?

A lot of the PC crowd claptrap over words and terms is dreamed-up
because academic creeps (there's not a better word for them) are faced
with a simple dictum in colleges and universities that has to do with
their own place in those institutions and gaining tenure (job security,
can't fire me ha ha I'm just like a government worker). It's called
"publish or perish." If you took the time to trace back the origin of a
lot of very stupid PC ideas that cause a lot of ado about nothing in
society, you'd find unworthy academics publishing something so they
don't perish at the root of it. And the nutty thing is, they publish
these things in literary journals that their own kind start and maintain
and snobbily assert is above all scrutiny.

But that's the great thing about Hollywood -- it's more in tune with the
real people out there earning a living without the parasitical
attunation of most of the PC crowd, which we find in academia,
government work, and other places where they can group together and hide
their incompetence.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 wes <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote:

Oh bullshit. Campbell was interested in the evolution of the spiritual
and psychological truths of Mankind and where we are going. He cared
about Jesus, he cared about Buddha, he cared about anyone who might be
classified as bodhisattva. Just because he happened to know that the
Christ story was very reminiscent of an early tale doesn't mean the
existence of Jesus didn't matter to him. To classify someone was deep as
Joseph Campbell as being a story pig with no care for real people is
silly, but then he wasn't posting on a newsgroup using only one name, so
I guess that's to be expected.

So? You're not making any point at all. I said I didn't think Campbell
was real keen on modern Christianity and that's what you challenged.

BTW, it's Vader not Vadar. And while I'm at it, do you know what the
Hebrew word for unknown is? Darrh. Kinda close, huh? Intertwine that,
since you're just skewing off in another direction again.

In case you've forgotten, the original idea was that in our currently
Western society there is a spiritual void due to the breakdown of
traditional religions, and "the Force" in the Star Wars movies speaks to
something people long for. And that is NOT duality, it's pure
spirituality with integrity and values for the good. As in Plato's "the
good" if you want to throw yet another pebble into this pond.

Ahem. How many billions of dollars do the movies have to make and how
many millions of rabid fans do they have to acquire before they become
effectual?

Campbell created no mythology. He merely commented on many. It was Lucas
who mimicked.

What mask did he borrow and how was he wrong?

Good lord. That's not a myth -- that's pure human tradition.

No, it's storytelling.

Hey Wes? You're nuts.

The Matrix was lifeted whole cloth from a SF classic. I know the author.
When he visited the creators of the movie in their office, they had his
dog-eared book on the shelf, one of their favorites. I'm not sure they
even realized how the stole the story. And believe me, the author had NO
comparison of Jesus and Neo (or his original hero, I should say) in
mind. Now the brothers, well, take that up with them. But you're off
point again, aren't you?

ROFL. Let me check. Am I a priest? (I checked.) No, I'm not!

Good lord, you're confused. He was the first to relate to it? Hey dude,
by USING Campbell's influence, Lucas put the man on the map! Even
Campbell would've told you that. It also didn't hurt that Dr. George
Miller also used the "Hero of a Thousand Faces" pattern to fashion his
blockbuster "Mad Max" and loudly touted Campbell (at about the same
time).

Oh sure. Only about 10,000 years old.

Don't count on it. My kids (and the kids of all the parents I know who
battled with this Pokemon bullshit) get a lot deeper education into the
human condition that something from that brain-dead crap.

Well, that's because of these things that got invented called radio,
movies and television and cell phones.

I think you're lying your ass off about that Oriental thing just to keep
from falling off this cliff you've been pushing yourself off of, but
hey, that's just me.

You've wasted a lot of energy trying very hard to make a point I don't
think you had in the first place, based on a single line in a post about
what I think Campbell's feelings about Christ were. And you were wrong
about that but apparently have a problem admitting it, because you keep
bringing up "other myths" (which mostly are not) and straying off topic.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
Ovum writes:

When

"young man wearing nothing but a linen garment following Jesus".  Check.

I'm picturing the look on Peter Falk's face as he hears that bit of
evidence.

                    COLUMBO
            Just a piece of linen?

                    ST. MARK
            Just a piece of linen.

                    COLUMBO
            Musta been a warm night, huh?

                    ST. MARK
            Not particularly.

                    COLUMBO
            Is zat the sorta thing ya wore when
            you were out, uh, what was it
            you said you were doing?

                    ST. MARK
            Seeking redemption.  No, the
            others had on the usual layers of
            striped cloth, turbans, sandals, those
            prayer cloth thingies popular with
            the Jewish guys.

                    COLUMBO
            What they called "the layered look"
            in the '80s, huh?

                    ST. MARK
            Precisely.  Now if you're finished--

                    COLUMBO
            Oh, yeah.  Sorry.  I didn't mean to
            keep you from all your saint work 'n all.
            Actually, I do have just one more question.

                    ST. MARK
            Yes, Mr. Columbo.

                    COLUMBO
            Did the Big Guy really ask you to
            go fishing for men?

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- For more funwith St. Mark: http://www.globaltown.com/shawn/secmark.html
or (less fun but closer to the source):
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Secret/secmark_home.html


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Stay on the topic, Skip.  When you start challenging the writer and not
the ideas is when you start regressing to "I know you are, but what am
I?" arguments.  Those are the ones that come back and bite you in the
ass.  As an experienced newsgroup reader, you should know that.

I don't think an obsession with the story necessarily makes him a pig.
What about the title, "man with a thousand faces"?  His thesis was to
point out the different ways in which the same story is dressed.  Sure,
it might be evolutionary, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M ARGUING. (not
shouting, just emphasis) My original point was that the power of myths
doesn't rely on the factual details of the story (or whether or not
they're true).  The power of myths lies in the fact that they're
everywhere.  Here's what Campbell says, p.12-13 Power Of Myth:

"I was brought up as a Roman Catholic.  Now, one of the great advantages
of being brought up a Roman Catholic is that you're taught to take myth
seriously and to let it operate on your life and to live in terms of
these mythic motifs. ... And then I fell in love with American Indians
because Buffalo Bill used to come to Madison Square Garden every year
with his marvelous Wild West Show. ... Later I became interested in
Hinduism, and there werre the same stories again.  And in my graduate
work I was dealing with the Arthurian medieval material, and there were
the same stories again.  So you can't tell me that they're not the same
stories.  I've been with them all my life.

...

The themes are timeless, and the inflection is to the culture."

No, it was not what I challenged.  In fact, in one of the earlier posts,
I said this (from the Google archives):

"I'm not arguing that Campbell was satisfied with religion as currently
constituted.  I'm arguing that it doesn't matter to him whether or not
there really existed a man name Jesus with no literal father."

It doesn't matter because he's concerned with "timless themes".  The
inflections are only ancillary.  I never challenged whether or not he
was "keen on modern Christianity".  I challenged your statements:

"I also don't think he believed in the virgin birth at all. Wouldn't
suprise me if he believed the story of Jesus' real father being a Roman
soldier."

...because I think these lines are irrelevant to the study of
myths.  I've said this repeatedly, and yet most of your arguments and
quotes have come regarding a fictional challenge on whether or not
Campbell was keen on modern Christianity.

I'll say it again:  I'm not challenging whether or not Campbell was keen
on modern Christianity.  I'm challenging the fact that whether or not he
believed that a virgin birth occured, or that Jesus's real father was a
Roman soldier is irrelevant to the study of myths.

Here's what Campbell has to say about Jesus's story, p. 262 in The Power
Of Myth:

"You have to go past the imagined image of Jesus.  Such an image of
one's god becomes a final obstruction, one's ultimate barrier.  You hold
on to your own ideology, your own little manner of thinking, and when a
larger experience of God approahces, an experience greater than you are
prepared to receive, you take flight from it by clinging to the image in
your mind.  This is known as preserving your faith."

The key phrase:  go past the imagined image of Jesus.

The mask he borrowed was in saying that Anakin has no father, and that
it was a virgin birth.  Writing that a character has no father isn't
writing a myth.  Writing about the character's personal wandering
because of lack of direction (possibly patriarchal direction) *is*
writing a myth.  It's the "timeless themes, multiple inflections"
idea... the inflection (a boy born without a father) is irrelevant.  The
theme (a boy without direction) is relevant.

Myth *is* human tradition!  Here are examples that Campbell gives (all
from Power of Myth):

p. 10:  There is an ethos there, there is a mode, an understanding that,
"we don't do it that way."  ... An unstated mythology, you might say.
This is the way we use a fork and knife, this is the way we deal with
people, and so forth.  It's not all written down in books.

p. 14:  When a judge walks into the room, and everybody stands up,
you're not standing up to that guy, you're standing up to the robe that
he's wearing and the role he's going to play.  What makes him worthy of
that role is his integrity, as a representative of the principles of
that role, and not some group of prejudices of his own.  So what you're
standing up to is a mythological character.

p.14:  I imagine some kings and queens are the most stupid, absurd,
banal people you could run into, probably interested only in horses and
women, you know.  But you're not responding to them as personalities,
you're responding to them in their mythological roles.

p.15:  Joining the army, putting on a uniform, is another [important
ritual].  You're giving up your personal life and accepting a socially
determined manner of life in the service of the society of which you are
a member.

p. 9:  When I was a kid, we wore short trousers, you know, knee pants.
And then there was a great moment when you put on long pants.  Boys now
don't get that.  I see even five-year-olds walking around with long
trousers.  When are they going to know that they're now men and must put
aside childish things?

p. 5:  Myth helps you to put your mind in touch with this experience of
being alive.  It tells you what the experience is.  Marriage, for
example.  What is marriage?  The myth tells you what it is.  It's the
reunion of the separated duad.

Rituals and tradition are "inflections" of myths.

Wes


author: BrickRage

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm (now OT)

text:
<snip some of Columbo dialogue -- I saw that episode by the way>>

Funny stuff, Brooksie. Damn I miss that show.

Nesci

"Undone by luck and a weakness for blondes"  Smart Money (1931)

The FAQ for m.w.s is http://www.communicator.com/faqs.html


subject: Alan meets St. Peter (was The Star Wars paradigm (now OT) )

text:
In article <aclu0v$oio$[email]>,
 "Alan Brooks" <[email]> wrote:

St. Peter: Oh, it's you, Brooks.

Alan: Do we know each other?

St. Peter: Your "humor" has been making the rounds. That last joke about
Mark got some attention. (Checks Book of Life) Matter of fact, that was
the last one you told before your unfortunate meeting with the truck.

Alan: You mean you sent that truck over a JOKE!?

St. Peter: Oh no, we wouldn't do something like that. Mark just happened
to be taking his driving test. He's now Heaven's official mover. You'll
be assigned to his heavy-lifting crew your first million years.

The shmuck slumps off toward the moving van, disgruntled.

St. Peter: Oh, and Brooks.

Alan: Yeah?

St. Peter: The ponytail's gotta go.


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 wes <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote:

[topic-strayed other stuff snipped]

That's just it -- you changed the topic. The topic was that part of the
appeal of the Star Wars movies is the Jedi/Force business, and that such
a fascination exists, at least in part, because of the void in the West
of strongly-held spiritual values, because of the decline in belief in
traditional dogma, mostly Christian. If I didn't explicitly state that
(and I'm pretty sure I did), that's what I meant. I don't give a shit
about myth--that's another discussion. I was talking about The Force and
the spiritual void in modern society.

Well, you started off challenging my off-hand statement of whether or
not Campbell believed in the Jesus story of the virgin birth. I proved
he didn't necessarily because he realized how much it was similar to
much earlier tales/myths/stories. Now you're just agreeding with me with
other quotes from him.

I agree with you about lack of direction. That's part of the problem in
the West's current spiritual void--the lack of strong, certain fathers
in society. There was no point of inserting that "Anakin virgin birth"
thing in there. I think that just shows some Lucas confusion and (as
mentioned in another thread) some lack of continuity and focus in the
storylines of his own films.

You weren't talking about myth there. If you think you were, look up the
definition. You were talking about the natural order of life. OK, I hear
your retort -- "The natural order of life is myth!" So I'll cut you off
at the pass. No it isn't. Myth and stories are built around the natural
order of life, which includes growth from childhood to adulthood, and
apprenticeship. Animals have that, and the last time I talked to one, it
was part of life, but they didn't have any myths.

Right. He's talking about an ethos -- a pervading sense or knowledge. A
myth is a passed-down story. Campbell wasn't always on the money,
particularly when talking to a suck-up like Bill Moyers.

Again, he's talking about rituals and societal norms. He's not talking
about myth, even though it's in a book called Power of Myth that is a
transcription of a recorded video interview.

Not a bad point, but so what?

Wander, wander, wander. The point was the current spiritual void in the
West and how the idea of "The Force" fills for some that void and gives
them direction. In the absence of admirable fathers, people reach out
for any role model that seems inherently right/promising. It's the old
saw of "If you don't raise your kids to believe in something, they'll
believe in anything."

And that's another discussion entirely, and no movies today touch it.


subject: Re: Alan meets St. Peter (was The Star Wars paradigm (now OT) )

text:
Skip Press wrote:

Hey, that wasn't a joke; it was the divinely inspired Gospel According to
Alan, which will be written in screenplay format.  [Jesus!  That lightning
bolt hit awfully close!]

Where would we be today if Noah had ignored the voices in *his* head?  Huh?

                Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

 -- Like they're going to let *writers* into heaven?!


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Yes, I changed the topic in my very first post to be directed
specifically in those two sentences.  That was the sole purpose of my
first post.  Everything else came from responses that you wrote.  But
since the very start, my sole purpose in this thread has been directed
at those two lines and what I inferred -- that belief in a particular
version of the story (no father vs. Roman soldier) has to do with the
study of myth.

If I misunderstood you, then all is fine and dandy.  But in my second
post, I tried to clarify my interpretation of your two lines, and even
said "I may have misunderstood you", but I got no indication that was
the case.  It seems to me that we had different contexts of the thread
in mind.

Really?  That's not what this suggests:

"Wouldn't suprise me if he believed the story of Jesus' real father
being a Roman soldier."

And then all of my examples were intended to point out exactly what you
just said in the paragraph above, that it doesn't matter because of how
much was similar in various tales/myths/stories.  My entire argument is
precisely that the details (inflections) of a story are secondary to the
theme.  Thus the details of whether or not Jesus's real father was a
Roman soldier are not relevant to Campbell's study of myth.

So, yes, I am agreeing with what you just said, but I am still not
agreeing with your original two statements, given the relation to the
study of myths.

Yes, it was a pointless insert, and I balked at it when I first saw the
movie.  Sometimes I feel like Lucas is just trying too hard to write the
myth of our times.

Well, in that case, I'll rephrase my point to be: Lucas was right in
writing a story about the natural order of life (Yoda to Dooku to
Qui-Gon, etc).  He was wrong in thinking that the details of a
particular story (Anakin has no father) have to be the same as the
details of the corresponding story in a different mythology (the Bible).

I hate these semantic arguments that arise in newsgroups because nobody
ever really defines that they mean (we've been using "myth" in a
gazillion different ways -- you've varied from Campbell's definition, as
have I), nobody really takes the time to carefully analyze and think
posts over because there's an unseen pressure to post a response
immediately, nobody is willing to budge on their stance, and nobody can
accurately read the tone of a reponse 100% of the time.

Wes


author: Tom Wood

subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Reading this thread, I am sensing a disconnect in the understanding of what
a myth is, in terms of Campbell's viewpoint.

Power of Myth (paperback):

P. 5: Campbell: Myths are clues to the spiritual potentialities of the human
life.

P. xvi: To him (Campbell) mythology was "the song of the universe," "the
music of the spheres"

So to Campbell, mythology goes directly to filling the spiritual void in
modern society. The Force is just another name for "the song of the
universe".

If Vader is the Anti-Christ, then why not use the same origin mythology?
They -have- to be on equal terms for the duality to hold in tension.

TW


text:
In article <acm6co$66$[email]>,
 "Alan Brooks" <[email]> wrote:

Hey, we do enough suffering, we deserve it. Just think of the DC posts
alone. What are you, a lawer hoping for a slot?


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
In article <[email]>,
 wes <wes_@woahnelly_.net_> wrote:

I think you're giving him too much credit. I don't know the man, have
just dealt with his PR people (good enough as those folks go). I think
he just borrows here, borrows there, throws in stuff on whimsy. And I
think that "Anakin has no mortal father" was just whimsy, and he didn't
give a damn if he ruffled Christian feathers -- that was just Lucas'
psyche's questions speaking.

My definition of myth is very simple -- story that could be based on
fact. Legendary, perhaps impossible to prove. It's impossible to prove
any guesses about Lucas' motivations without having him state it in
person. What is not impossible to prove, however, is the spiritual void
that currently exists in society, and how "the Force" serves that void
by providing hero figures (Jedi and Jedi values).


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
Definitions of "myth" are varied, even within Campbell's body of work.
The index to Power of Myth lists half a dozen different pages to find
definitions.

The point I've been trying to argue, is that myths will work regardless
of the details, so it's not necessary to use the origin story.

But, another important thing to think about is really whether or not the
Star Wars story works best with Anakin as a Christ figure.  He isn't a
prophet, he doesn't act for good (God), he doesn't spiritually free
anybody, he doesn't preach to "love thine enemies", he isn't
cruicified... in short, I'm not exactly sure why Anakin is supposed to
be a Christ figure.

I think the Star Wars story works better as a story about the familial
line (not just blood, but within this Padewan relationship) containing
both good and evil, and the internal battles between the two.  That's a
more human story, because mythologies are supposed to help us experience
and cope with life (in Campbell's words, "validate a social order"), and
the fight with evils that are close in body and spirit to ourselves is
more germane to the human experience than whether or not Anakin is a
Christ figure gone wrong.

Wes


subject: Re: The Star Wars paradigm

text:
I get the impression that he's trying so much harder this time around to
write the "myth of our times."  I feel like the original Star Wars was
such a breeze of cheese compared to Phantom Menace, which had a forced
spirituality about it.  Episode IV was pure boy-talk storytelling which
happened to hit the right chords, whereas Phantom was written with the
intent to fill this spiritual void you're describing.

Ah well, it's a valiant effort, and it's hard to hate the guy for it.

I have a much more restrictive definition of myth -- that for a story to
be mythic in nature, it has to be a sort of guidepost for how to live
our lives.  Not that it necessarily has to give us answers, but that in
experiencing the story, I realize that the battles I fight are the same
battles that everybody fights.  In my view, it's possible to have a
legend that is impossible to prove, but that never hits on mythic
elements.

Wes


author: avtar

subject: Funny Puzzle : How many Legs are there inside the bus?

text:
Scenario:
There is a bus with 7 girls inside,

Each girl has 7 bags,

Inside each bag, there are 7 Big cats,

Each Big cat has 7 small cats,

All cats have 4 Legs each!

The total number of Legs would be the password for this file:
puzzle1.xls avalable on
http://puzzle.singhisking.net/

download the file and try to open it ..

Type in the password, when asked for.. and in the next window, click
read-only button.

If you can't open the file, the answer you obtained is wrong

and find more puzzle there....

Thanks


author: Godzilla Pimp

subject: Re: Funny Puzzle : How many Legs are there inside the bus?

text:
Depends on whether the bus driver is aboard. They should have said the bus
was going down the road...would have made a better puzzle.

"avtar" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
On Sep 27, 7:18 pm, Anthony Matonak
<[email]> wrote:

Legs on the bus seats??


author: Anthony Matonak

text:
They also don't mention how many legs each girl has but
they make a point of how many legs each cat has. They
also don't many any other wildlife. A single centipede,
for instance, would skew the total significantly.

Godzilla Pimp wrote:


text:
[email] wrote:

Come to think of it, they don't mention food either. I'm
sure many legs could be found in grocery stores that aren't
attached to any animal.

Anthony


author: NotMe

subject: Re: The Thug Report

text:
And this has what to do with any of the groups you posted?

"Walt Thole" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: The Henchman

subject: Re: The Thug Report

text:
"Walt Thole"  wrote in message
news:[email]...

http://www.thugreport.com/

---------------------------------

This has nothing to do with the group.  Why would you post this?  Makes no
sense to me why you would post this here....


author: Walt Thole

subject: Re: The Thug Report

text:
On Jul 18, 2:36 pm, Billy <[email]> wrote:
You folks have been so nasty that my return is assured.


author: Billy

subject: Re: The Thug Report

text:
In article <ivvdkf$pgl$[email]>, "NotMe" <[email]>
wrote:

THe problem is that there isn't a rec.racism for these cretins to post
to.


subject: Re: The Thug Report

text:
In article
<[email]>,
 Walt Thole <[email]> wrote:

Welcome to the KF ;O)


author: themailbox

subject: solutions to WEST tax text needed

text:
I am wondering if anyone knows where on the internet I can find
solutions for the WEST "individual income taxes"(2003) text.   I am a
student.   Our library has that solution manual, avalable to student,
but I prefer internet.   thank you.


author: William P. Brown

subject: Re: solutions to WEST tax text needed

text:
themailbox wrote:

The solutions manual is not, to my knowledge, available to students on
the Internet. It it were, I would complain to the publisher. Frankly, I
see almost no pedagogical value to making it available in the library.

You can find the answers to all research questions provided by the West
textbook in the Internal Revenue Code, related regulations and other IRS
pronouncements, and tax specific judicial decisions. All of those should
be available in your library, too.

Regards,
Bill
~~~~
Associate Professor of Accounting
Longwood University
Department of Accounting, Economics & Finance
http://www.longwood.edu/staff/wpbrown/
Opinions expressed by me are mine, not my employer's.


subject: Re: solutions to WEST tax text needed

text:
Internal Revenue Code is available on line, I believe.   Textbooks
covering other subjects have solutions at the end of the book.   Why
is taxation different?


subject: Re: solutions to WEST tax text needed

text:
themailbox wrote:

Not the textbooks I use.

In general, the purpose of homework assignments is to get the student to
learn the answers to the questions. In the case of tax homework, an
additional goal is for the student to learn to FIND the answers to
questions. There are no solutions manuals in real life. Get used to that
fact.


author: Amused

subject: You Don't suppose...

text:
I bought a new Epson R220.

Well, today, I finished off the first set of cartridges.  I installed a new
set, of off brand cartridges.

Well, I got a big splashscreen telling me I wasn't using genuine Epson
cartridges and I could damage my printer.  Okay, okay.  These cartridges
were about 1/3 the price of Epson cartridges...

And then I printed something, and everything ended up overlaided with a
shade of green.

You don't suppose...nah...Epson wouldn't purposely do that..would they?


author: Littleguy

subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:26:26 -0600, "Amused"
<[email]> wrote:

Either bite the bullet and buy the ink your suppose to buy or don't be
surprised when the aftermarket stuff doesn't work right.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
On 13-Jan-2008, "Amused" <[email]> wrote:

What are those things ? I switched over to Laser  Printers.


author: nick c

subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
Amused wrote:

What brand were they.

Maybe that's why the R220 has been discontinued.

Whenever you change ink cartridges initial tests for alignment and
adjustments for color match (monitor to printout) should be accomplished.

I've used many Epson printers throughout the years and never
encountered problems using high-end off brand ink cartridges. Rhino
cartridges are supposed to be of high quality. Not the cheapest but
not expensive either.

I've used Rhino brand cartridges in Epson printers without
encountering problems.  The Epson R220 printer uses dye base inks and
it may be worth your while to see if Rhino ink cartridges are
available for the R220 printer. My main photo printer is the Epson
R1800. I only use Epson cartridges in the R1800 printer because it
doesn't use conventional dye base ink. However, I also presently still
use an  old Epson R825 printer and use Rhino dye base inks in that
printer.


author: Allan Smith

subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
James,

Probably not. Brother and Canon typically do the same thing on non-OEM
cartridges from the Far East.

Different mfgrs have different 'saturation' of inks. The same number of
microdroplets produce a different 'darkness' (and likely shade) of the
color.

I call them "yellow-box", or "ISO-9001" inks. They rearely produce accurate
color. The same is true for many "cartridge refill" kits.

Generally, black is reasonably black, but 'reasonably' ain't good enough for
colors.

Allan


subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
On 13-Jan-2008, nick c <[email]> wrote:

How much does one save using a off brand cartridge ?


subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
On 13-Jan-2008, "Allan Smith" <[email]> wrote:

Your banned from reading Old salts postings for a month.


subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
On 14-Jan-2008, [email] wrote:

I found saving apx. $7 on one cartridge, as few Cartridges I went through
when I used a HP Printers I wouldn't screw arround and take the chance. But
the way Epsons drank ink, I might take the chance.


subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
[email] wrote:

About half the cost of proprietary ink. The only off brand ink that I
would consider using in my older dye base ink printers is Rhino.


subject: Re: You Don't suppose...

text:
[email] wrote:

I use Canon as well as Epson printers and they both are about the same
when it comes to replacements. I used to use HP printers and back when
I did, that's what started me to try different off brand inks. I found
Rhino to be equal in quality and longer lasting than other off brand
inks. Although I no longer use HP printers, I still use Rhino, but not
in the R1800 printer.


subject: Re: TRADING SOFTWARE (about 800 programs on 9 CDs)

text:
In article <8ssu4u$lu3$[email]>,
  [email] wrote:
USD
100 USD
- 50 USD
indicators, systems
200 USD
Daytrader (manual, examples,
(manuals, historical
(with Good Forever
100 USD
lessons) - 50 USD
for sale
can help

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


author: server not recognized

subject: Is this ken again?

text:
is this guy for real or is it another Ken cloan?

Complain to [email] if you think its spam.

Thx

P


author: expert sales

subject: P120 System Under 1k; 2.6Gb at 85; and much more!!

text:
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author: Hexagen

subject: Re: DLT Tapes

text:
In article <[email]>,
rj kulman  <[email]> wrote:

       .......$50/ea..!!! WOW....:-) RJ, Care to divulge whatcha'
  smokin' and where you got it..!...THAT..I'd pay for...


author: Josh Brandt

subject: Re: DLT Tapes

text:
In article <[email]>, Hexagen <[email]> wrote:

Uh, 50 bucks for a new DLT? Assuming it actually is new, that's actually
pretty good, for single tapes.

Josh


subject: Re: DLT Tapes

text:
In article <[email]>,
Josh Brandt <[email]> wrote:

..I then retract my statement rj.....use em', but never see the receipts.

steve


author: Paul McAleer

subject: By the Pound

text:
By the Pound

Sweeney sent in a somewhat baseless editorial (
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58886-2004Nov17.html?sub=AR
) by Marc Fisher from the Washington Post. He suggests that people should
pay a per-pound charge to fly on airplanes because, you know, that'll force
people to lose weight (ie, this is another fat tax - albeit a somewhat
avoidable one.)

He chastises L.L. Bean for keeping their plus-size prices the same as
neutral-size prices, calling them "greedy." He then launches into the
Southwest two seats policy - but check out how he misrepresents it:

"Southwest's policy is simple and fair: If you take up more than one seat,
you need to buy the extra seat. The airline refunds the extra charge if
there are empty seats on a given flight. "

No, Mark, their policy is not simple nor fair. The problem is that their
policy isn't clearly defined fleet-wide, and is a total judgment call by
the people at the flight desk. If they think you look too fat for a seat,
they'll ask you to pay for two. If you fit in a seat just fine, seatbelt on
and all, they can ask you to buy another. They can feel free to embarrass
you on the flight, they can feel free to do whatever they want all in the
name of so-called safety.

This is a gross, one-sided misrepresentation of the facts. Instead of
expressing shock at the fact that there's an "obesity lobby" (although it's
no real friend to fat acceptance,) Mark, you should be doing more research.
Taking Southwest at their word smacks of lazy journalism.


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[email] (Paul McAleer) wrote:

You are aware that muscle weighs MORE than fat and that a slim muscular
person can easily weigh more than a chubby...large person.


author: EricBazilian

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[email] (Paul McAleer) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

There is a simple and easy way to deal with all this. Basically the
commuter airlines should adopt/synchronize their shipping practices
with the freight carriers. This way people would be charged for the
combined weights of themselves and their luggage in much the same way
we are currently charged to ship a parcel by air.

It would be very easy to install weighing plates in front of each
ticket counter. The display would only be available to the attendant
and the customer only thus avoiding any potential embarassment. All
you would have to do is step up onto the plate along with your
luggage, insert your credit card and get your ticket price based on
your weight. Frequent flyers could have a 'smartcard' where their
weights and average luggage weights are already on record to speed
things up.


author: Deep Frayed Morgues

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
On 20 Nov 2004 05:34:26 -0000, [email] (Paul McAleer)
wrote:

WHOAH THERE!!!!

What about those that are of a muscular build, and thus heavier? I am
184cm (6' 2") and about 94kg (pounds, I dunno), and have very little
fat on me. The assumption that heavy=fat kinda worries me a little!

If we are going to become intolerant of fat people, can't there be an
exclusion criteria for those of us that are heavy and fit? And then
can't there be an exclusion for those that are fat, but it's not their
fault?
---
DFM


author: The Voice of Reason

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[email] (Paul McAleer) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

There's nothing wrong with that, it will only save embarrassment later
on. I'm sure if you sat into a seat and oozed out of the sides, you'd
be embarassed when you were told to get off the plane.

Yeah, who cares about safety, your right to stuff yourself with food
is far more important.

You're one to talk about people being lazy.


author: Icono Clast

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
Paul McAleer wrote:

Weight is the wrong criterion. Body Mass Index is the correct one.
Many very large people have BMIs well within the healthy norm and
many very small people do not. My BMI, for example, is 24.9 but my
weight is well under 200 pounds.

METRIC: http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmi-m.htm
ENGLISH: http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmicalc.htm

BMI Categories:
     * Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
     * Overweight = 25-29.9
     * Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater

Just charge maybe $5 for every ultimate digit above 24.9, i.e, 25.0
would increase the fare by $5. If you have a BMI of 30, for example,
you'd pay $55 more than a normal person thus easily compensating the
carrier for the extra fuel, and possible loss of a seat to sell
because of your grotesque enormity.
_____________________________________________________________
       A San Franciscan who's visited 49 of 50 US states
http://geocities.com/dancefest/   http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103    IClast at SFbay Net


author: Bob Fusillo

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
If they charge more for overweight people, they should charge less for thin
people.

A  fat person and a skinny person were on a crowded bus. The skinny person
said" They ought to charge by weight on these buses." The fat person said "
If they did, there would some people it wouldn't be worth stopping for."
rjf

"Paul McAleer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
force
on
it's
research.


author: nospam

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
The only ways to fairly enforce that policy would be to either have a
template similar to the one used for carry-on luggage or to employ a
scale.  In the former case, passengers would walk through a fixed
template, and if they did not fit, they would need to pay for the extra
seat.  Or in the latter case, passengers would need to stand on a scale
and weighed just like checked baggage.  The problem with these
approaches is that fat people would be mortified.  Yes, the current
approach of having customer service agents make a judgment call is
subjective, but it is probably the only practical solution.

Pete


author: bogus address

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
It's not just about safety, it's about consideration for other
passengers.  A fat passenger may well be able to do their seatbelt
up while their arse still manages to flow inder the armrest and
all over the seat next to them.  This can be horribly uncomfortable
for the person on that next seat, even on a short flight.

What would you prefer them to do?  Have a mockup seat at the check-in
fitted with arse-overhang gauges and require fat passengers to sit in
it?

I don't have a problem with embarassing people who intend to make my
flight a contortionist ordeal.

I occasionally have that problem on buses here.  Our incidence of gross
obesity is far less than the US, but about once a week I see somebody
on a bus so fat that they only leave half a seat for their neighbour.
Its would be perfectly fair for the bus company to charge them double,
though no bus operator actually does that.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html>  food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


author: Nuke'em

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
Paul McAleer wrote:

Yeah, but can you fit in the seat without raising either of the
armrests?  If you can't, then you need to buy another seat, period.

If you're too fat to fit in an airline seat, you should be embarrassed.

   N.


author: Rosalie B.

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[email] (gman99) wrote:

And a large muscular person will weigh more than a large less muscular
person.

My daughter who was quite physically fit was told by the AF that she
was overweight, whereas the slimmer but unfit colleagues.  She had
something like 15% body fat (or some number which is unusually low for
a woman) as determined by a water float tank test.  In order for her
to get down to their target weight, she had to lose muscle.

As a result, she basically stopped eating  to lose the weight and
became more emotional and apt to burst into tears, so the AF then said
she was mentally unstable and sent her to a psychiatrist.

Fortunately, the psychiatrist didn't think she was crazy and sent her
back to pilot training but that has left her with some eating issues.

grandma Rosalie


author: John A. Weeks III

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
In article <[email]>,
EricBazilian <[email]> wrote:

I'd have no problem with that.  The problem that I do have today
is that they are not selling tickets by the pound, but by the seat.
If they sell by the seat, they should be willing to take anybody
who shows up with a ticket, and they should not hassle people
who are outside of the average on size.

It would be interesting to advertise tickets based on the per-pound
method.  You see all the deals in the Sunday paper travel section,
some of which are package deals with air & hotel.  How would they
discount tickets in this manner, advertise a percentage off of list?
So, the deal of the week is Las Vegas at 23% off list?  Or would
they advertise that the first 50 pounds is free?

-john-


author: Gandalf Parker

subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
[email] (EricBazilian) wrote in
news:[email]:

Sounds good to me. But then I fly military and Im lucky if I even get a
seat. :)

Gandalf  Parker


subject: Re: By the Pound

text:
Deep Frayed Morgues wrote:

That was discussed in another thread on this subject. Yes, there are
people who are genetically fat and can't do anything about it. Our
focus is primarily on those who make themselves fat, is it not?
_____________________________________________________________
        A San Franciscan in 47.335 mileï¿½ San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/   http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103    IClast at SFbay Net