text:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:25:50 -0700, John Klausner wrote:

[...]

The alternative to top posting is not bottom posting: it is the
intermixing of comments as they apply to particular parts of the
quoted post.  When we read a novel with dialogue represented, we
don't find what person B said in response to a remark by A put
ahead of that remark--if we did, we would soon give up and throw
the book away as unreadable.  The same would apply to, for
example, a newspaper comic strip: if the panels were presented
in reverse order, it would be a pain or worse to read.

It isn't a matter of "correct" or "incorrect": it is a matter of
what is easiest and most natural to follow.

You do.  I do.  Everyone who posts to the internet does.  That
is how any set of conventions--like a language--works.  What the
great majority find most effective becomes the governing norm.
No one controls or "punishes" deviating behavior, any more than
a police officer tickets you for poor grammar.  You can speak,
or post, as you please.  But if you are interested in making
your posts as easy and pleasant to read as possible, you will
find that the cumulative experience of internet users is a handy
guide.  That cumulative experience has found that top posting is
a poor way to communicate.

You can see that this is not any one person's ideas by doing a
Google usenet search.  The topic has probably been discussed,
often many times, in just about every newsgroup on usenet.  And,
while there are always a few rebels whose basic philosophy seems
grounded in deliberately doing everything differently from the
rest of the world, a substantial majority has agreed that top
posting is inefficient.

That will be because the poster ignored another sound usenet
principle, which is to quote only as much as is needful for
later readers to understand the general ideas and the particular
response being offered.  To quote an entire post, especially a
lengthy one, just to attach a short comment is sheer folly (or,
in one case at least that comes to mind, sheer childishness).

Using a browser for news is always going to be a "make-do."
There are many excellent pieces of software specifically
designed to be newsreaders, and all are cheap and, I believe,
some good ones even free.  You might want to look into upgrading
from Netscape, at least for news.


author: Steve Cothran

subject: Re: [META] Posting Mechanics (was Re:top...)

text:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT), "Eric Walker"
<[email]> wrote:

OK. Why not let people use USENET as they please without trying to
apply "rules" or "manners" . Goddamn, some people just can't stand
prosperity. Reminds me of city yuppies who move to the country, and
immediately start trying to mold laws and people to suit them.

This group has gotten on very well without your rules for a bunch of
years, thank you.

I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony.  <sigh>

What you are suggesting would tend to ruin the dynamics of this group,
which is what makes it so enjoyable. Likely, your response is going to
be <plonk>....then another talks about what an asshole I am....then
another talks about his new goat dog, all in the same thread.

Kwitcherbitchin. (Copyright Grey Wolf,date unknown)


author: Larry Caldwell

subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] writes:

I said nothing about grammar.  Your diatribe, in case you have forgotten
what you wrote, was about top posting.  Not only was it off topic, you
had nothing to say in the first place.

I will cheerfully forgive strange quoting, poor spelling and clumsy
grammar if the poster has something to say.

One phenomenon familiar to all rural people is the urban transplant who
immediately wants to turn the country into a suburb.  They put up lights
that spoil the night for their neighbors, complain about night farming
noise, dust and smells, and generally try to dictate behavior to people
who were doing just fine before they arrived.  You reminded me of that.


subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:00:19 -0700 (PDT), "Eric Walker"
<[email]> wrote:

ROFL! DUH !!

Lots of folks here use good grammar.


author: Eric Walker

text:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:33:28 GMT, Steve Cothran wrote:

You appear unable to make a statement without being needlessly
rude, and in a childish manner at that.

Internet posting protocol is established in much the same way
any set of customs, from the English language to table manners,
is established: by the developing, long-term consensus of those
who use those customs as to what is mutually pleasing and
convenient.

Any who want can post to usenet in any way they want, including
with remarks that someone's name is crap.  That is stupid and
rude, but no one censors it (except on moderated groups).

The point of internet protocols is not that they are some
arbitrary set of rules that this or that "expert" laid out one
fine day: it is that the vast experience of a vast number of
people has shown that the more people who observe those customs,
the easier the mechanical act of communication will be for all
concerned.  It is much like grammar itself: you can flout the
rules if it pleases you to manifest hebephrenia for all to see,
but don't expect your stubborn independence (or whatever name
you give your follies of speech) to make it easier, or as easy,
for others to follow what you say.

Posting protocols are conveniences.  Those who, as a matter of
principle, make it their business to learn all social customs
solely so that they can be assured that they are violating as
many as possible (to show their rugged independence or whatever)
are free to so act, but they show themselves in the process to
be simple assholes.


text:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:57:39 GMT, Steve Cothran wrote:

[...]

That is, of course, a false and meaningless parallel, but is
mentioned, I suppose, because snappy remarks about yuppies
always make points here, regardless of trivial concerns like
relevance.

No one is, or is proposing, that anyone not be "let" to use
usenet "as they please"; the point was that if people follow the
conventions that long experience by the vast majority of usenet
has shown to make usenet posting easier and more pleasant to
read, their posts will be just that: easier and more pleasant to
read.

If, of course, other people's ease and pleasure are immaterial
to one, as seems to be the case with some not so far off, why
they are free to "use USENET as they please."


subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 03:14:43 GMT, Larry Caldwell wrote:

<[email]>,

One: you say "diatribe."  The material I posted, taken verbatim
from something I saw posted on another group, will, if you
review it, be seen to scarcely meet the definition "a bitter,
abusive criticism or denunciation."  It was neither a criticism
nor a denunciation, much less bitter: it was a summary of some
points that have appeared on, I gather, a number of usenet
groups.  On those on which I have myself seen it, this is the
first in which it has been received in an even remotely negative
manner.

Two: top posting was only one of a number of items mentioned in
a list of convenient and useful mechanical conventions
pertaining to usenet posts.  Few--none, really--of those have
ever, to my knowledge anyway, been seen anywhere else as being
controversial.  Even top posting, perhaps the most discussed of
those points, is itself rarely defended or its deprecation even
seen as a subject for major debate.

Three: (though, since you seem so sensitive on the point, it may
not mean anything to you what people in other groups think and
do), it seems to be usenet convention that discussion about
discussion is always, *by definition*, on topic in any group.
That is why the subject header included META (which means
something different from OT, which also doesn't get enough use).

Four: yes, grammar was not mentioned.  But what, precisely, then
was the ground on which the post, made by someone 20 years by
choice in rural areas (and always on good terms with neighbors),
was assigned as being from a "townie"?  That you don't agree
with some part of it?  Or what?

As will everyone (unless the group is alt.usage.english).

That surprised me so much that I just went back and reviewed the
original post.  The first three paragraphs of it were put in by
me for this group.  Here they are again, verbatim:

--------------------
The matter of top posting having been (or still being) the
subject of a running thread here, I thought I'd pass along some
thoughts on posting methodology that were developed a while ago
in another forum after some back and forth discussion.

These points all refer to the _mechanical_ aspects of posting to
usenet, not (except peripherally) to what anyone actually has to
say in a given post.

In my opinion, they are pretty much consensus among regular,
experienced usenet participants.  (Top posting is #9).
--------------------

If that reads to you like a post from someone trying to "dictate
behavior," one of us badly needs a new dictionary.

I repeat that I am flat-out amazed by what I have seen here.  On
group after group, I have seen posting mechanics discussed at
length with virtually no controversy.  More to the point, I have
seen lists like that one--in more than one case *including* that
very one--posted with nothing but some thanks from those (at
least once including me) who were unaware of some of the things
in it.  (I never knew that sig-line separators require a blank
space after the double dash for newsreader software to
automatically recognize the grouping as a divider.)

Whence this hypersensitivity?


author: Louis Boyd

subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
Steve Cothran wrote:

It's not the grammar.  You appear to be a "townie" because you use an
internet connection.  Distance from a city isn't relevant.  The desire
to interact with multitudes of other people pegs you as "city folk".


author: Chuck Simmons

subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
Steve Cothran wrote:

And as far as "townie's" go, bad grammar rules. The most common answer
to "How are you?" I hear is "good" which is a travesty of grammar. There
is also a universal inability among English speakers to realize that
data and media are plurals of datum and medium respectively. So much for
grammar anywhere.

Chuck


author: steve spence

text:
bottom posting encourages snipping, since who wants to go through all that
stuff to read someone's one-liner. I prefer top posting, and have done so
for many years, as the detail at the bottom is there if you need to refer to
it. snipping occasionally keeps the message sizes down. I have my newsreader
set to hide read messages, so this works best for me. do keep an eye open
for the etiquette police. BTW, I slurp my soup.....


text:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT), "Eric Walker"
<[email]> wrote:

 I suppose, because snappy remarks about yuppies

Hmmm,Stony, that was directed at the group rather than me. Since it
offended you, I submit "yuppie is you".

Do you maintain that the folks who read this group are hicks or
ignorant? Or just not as civilized as you?

Just because I think you are a stupid son of a bitch does not mean
that there are no nice folks here.


author: RSMEINER

subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
Nah, that would be in person interaction.  This is more like
entertainment.

Randy


subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
Now why would you consider "Good"  to be a travesty of grammer
when asked "How are you" ?

Randy


author: BD

subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
"English is a living language..."

"Chuck Simmons" <[email]> wrote in message


text:
On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:11:06 GMT, steve spence wrote:

As I said elsewhere, the alternative to top posting is not
bottom posting: it is an intermixing of comments, each at a
place in the quoted material where it is relevant (as in this
post).

Heavily snipping quoted material--save in quite unusual cases
that just about always make themselves obvious--is normally an
excellent idea: the point of quoting is to include just enough
material in the quotation so that readers of one's posts have
some idea what one's own comments refer to.  Quoted excerpts are
just a sort of reminder of what's being addressed, not a full
exposition-- readers who feel they need to see the whole
original can just click for the last message up-thread.


text:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:07:50 GMT, Steve Cothran wrote:

Apparently your ignorance of the meaning of "yuppie" is as great
as your ignorance of English.  The "y" is young--I am not; the
"u" is "Urban--I am not; the "p" is "Professional"--I am not.

You knew none of those things, nor had any clues to them.  You
used such phrases as "townie" and "yuppie" apparently because
you believe that anyone whose opinion differs from yours must be
scum, and the rallying word in this group for "scum" is
"yuppie."

Moreover, you insult everyone here by *assuming* that someone
who, unlike you, writes English must be a "townie," as if to say
"I know that everyone here is illiterate like me."

Then, with brass enough to start a foundry, you try to pin your
own amazing prejudices onto the person who most disagrees with
them--

--the person who believes that readers here can read and write
English.  I for one would be well pleased if you would keep your
stupid prejudices about rural people to yourself.

In this group as in the country itself, most are; they just
don't include you.


subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
On 13 Oct 2001 14:49:25 GMT, [email] (RSMEINER) wrote:

Absolutely. And it has been way too quiet here lately.


subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
He thinks the person should say "Well" as though the quesion "How are
you?" is asking about health.  If I answer "Good" it's a reference to
skill, not health.

I saw a georgeous blond driving a Mercedes convertable in Scottadale
AZ.  Her license plate read "IM GOOD".    "IM WELL" would not have been
appropriate.


text:
Eric, you ignorant slut :)

When I reposted your stuff with the one-liner at the bottom, I was
playing. Since it apparently jacked you off, I continued to see if I
could make you type a lot of stuff. Which I did. Enough people have
done it to me for Chrissakes.

I've caught my limit: I'll quit before GW gets after me.

Thanks for a few days of amusement.


author: CAVM

subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
The point of language is to communicate.  I would say if they all agree on the
meaning of a particular exchange they have effectively communicated.


subject: Re: Stupid Townies

text:
CAVM wrote:

Hardly. Lou points out that the question, "How are you?" is possibly
incomplete. The verb "to be" in the question seems to require an
adverbial answer or a more complete answer such as, "I am well." If it
is somehow implied that there is ellipsis in the question, for example,
the implied question is, "How are you in bed?" then the adjectival good
(or bad) would be appropriate. Think of the common greeting of "How do
you do?" getting the answer, "How do I do what?"

Chuck


subject: Adverse Possession - conversion of mineral rights

text:
I mentioned the discussion about adverse possession to my
oldest brother the other day.  He told me about a particular
case not far from home in Texas.

One man who owned several sections of land died and left them
to an instituion in Nebraska.  One quarter section of land
had been used by a someone who lived near it for years without
paying any rent.  There does not appear to have been any
agreement allowing him to use the land.

Then oil was found on the land and the whole thing ended up
in court.  The farmer who had been using the land for years
prevailed on both the surface rights (as reasonably expected)
and the mineral rights in spite of the fact that some royalty
payments, I think for gas, had been paid to the real owner
and then to the Nebraska instituion for years.

So in the case of adverse possession, does the challenger
(what is he called) usually end up with the mineral rights
as well as the surface rights?

My brother also mentioned a very useful thing about adverse
possession.  Another brother bought some land years ago and
a couple of the pool of owners were women who had inherited
it under their maiden names and sold their interest under
their married names.  When he realized this and was afraid
it might potentially cause problems years down the road, his
lawyer told him not to worry.  He said to just keep quiet
about it for whatever period was required for adverse possession
and after that there could be no problems at all.

Eric Johnson


subject: Re: Adverse Possession - conversion of mineral rights

text:
One claiming adverse possession may gain the mineral rights only if the mineral
rights have not been severed from the surface rights.

Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.


author: John Noble

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (wej3715) wrote:

I don't see a problem in upholding a transfer of title acquired under a
maiden name and transferred under a married name, as long as the title was
good when it was acquired and wasn't compromised before the name change,
e.g. by a judgment recorded against the owner in her maiden name which
wasn't revealed in the title search because the search was limited to her
married name. But if there is a problem, the solution is not adverse
possession, it's title insurance.

J. Noble


author: HmltnLaura

text:
I'm sure that the title abstractor discovered the name change, it happens all
the time with women owners and it can be a challenge to the abstractor.  If
there is a break in title and you cannot take the land back through the owners
names, the abstractor and/or attorney could not have certified title to the
purchaser.  At this point, if there is a problem, an "Affidavit to Clear Title"
may be recorded to document the name changes.

J. Noble is correct, this is not adverse possession.


author: JD

subject: What do I watch for during framing of a new house?

text:
Beginning this week the framing is being put up for our new house.  It
is a two story house being built in a cold rainy climate (you have to
love Chicago in November).   Can anyone recommend some specific things
to watch for regarding quality issues?

Some things I have heard already are along the lines of: make sure when
your wood is delivered it doesn't sit in any standing water, and other
pretty obvious things.  I don't really know much about the process, but
I do like to walk around the site to inspect the work and ask the
builder questions.

Thanks,
Jason


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: What do I watch for during framing of a new house?

text:
Make sure u have insurance. Here a 2 story that had just been framed,
was blown down during sudden wind storm.


author: Dan Bolt

text:
IMHO, the things most often neglected are bracing and proper tie downs for
your wind zone.  See that the sub floor is well secured and that joist
blocking is in place if required for your construction.  Later on watch the
subs to see that they don't over drill studs or notch joists improperly.
Lots to know to be able to properly monitor this.  It's best to be able to
trust your builder, most do want to do a good job.

Dan, Building Inspector

"JD" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...


author: Ray

text:
JD wrote:

Well, maybe not during the framing, but sometime after (just before the
insulation goes in), you should videotape everything. Be sure to get
lots of close-ups of all the wiring and plumbing while a friend is
holding a tape-measure across the section of wall that you're pointing
at. It might also be a good time to talk with the electrician about
extra wiring. Identify the places that will be hard to reach and get
wires into those places even if they won't connect to anything right
away.

I would also ask what can be done to make it more hurricane- and
earthquake-resistant. If you're not in a high-risk area, they're
probably not planning to do as much as they could, but it's a lot
cheaper to do these things now than afterward. I have no construction
experience, so I'll leave it to the pros to supply the details about
what exactly to ask for and look for.


author: Trip Farmer

text:
In article <[email]>, JD <[email]> says:

If you're not familiar with construction methods and local codes the
best thing you can do is try to ask some questions.  Maybe read a book
that a local inspector would suggest.  The main thing you CAN do is
to measure ALL the rooms as they are laid out and make sure they are
the correct size and that they are SQUARE.

Trip


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subject: Average People Make Big $$$$$

text:
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author: john

text:
http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/index.php?ntid=65414&ntpid=2

Rob Zaleski: Chemist says mercury linked to autism spike

By Rob Zaleski
December 16, 2005

Write a letter to the editor.

[email]
Letter to the editor
Tell us what you think

About Rob

Rob Zaleski is a 32-year veteran of the news business. His columns
appear
every Monday and Wednesday in the Communities section.
<mailto:[email]>E-mail <mailto:[email]>Email
Rob

His detractors call him an alarmist.

"They hate me," Mike Wagnitz acknowledged in an interview this week.

But if that's what it takes to get people's attention, hey, call him an

alarmist or anything else you want, Wagnitz said with a laugh.

A senior state chemist, Wagnitz is making health experts uneasy because
of
his public statements urging people to think twice before getting a flu

shot this season. He thinks the shots are especially risky for pregnant

women and young kids.

Why? Because about 95 percent of the doses being distributed this
winter
contain thimerosal, the mercury-based preservative that Wagnitz and
others
believe is responsible for the startling increase in autism cases in
the
United States since the early 1990s.

The federal government says that's hokum, noting that despite years of
study there's no scientific evidence that mercury in vaccines causes
autism. However, as a precaution, the U.S. Public Health Service in the

late 1990s asked manufacturers to start phasing thimerosal out of
childhood
vaccines.

In fact, both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention say flu shots are absolutely essential
for
pregnant women and infants 6 to 23 months old. As for potential risks,
they
claim that the amount of thimerosal in a child's dose is so tiny it
poses
virtually no risk at all - a claim Wagnitz says is "pure propaganda."

Still, health experts admit they have more questions than answers about

autism. As the National Institute of Mental Health noted in its 2005
annual
report on autism to Congress, "There are no effective means to prevent
the
disorder, no fully effective treatment and no cure."

Wagnitz, 52, has been speaking out about the possible link between
vaccines
and autism for several years now, ever since his daughter Josie, now 8,
was
diagnosed with autism in 2001.

To say he was shocked would be a colossal understatement, says Wagnitz,

"because, frankly, I'd never even heard of autism before that. I was
this
trusting person who just did what the doctor told me to do."

Then he began doing some research, and the deeper he dug, the more
troubled
he became. After doing "some simple fifth-grade math," Wagnitz says he
figured out that the amount of mercury in flu shots - 50,000 micrograms
per
liter in the multi-dose vials - is 250 times the amount that's
considered
safe for liquid hazardous waste.

That's when he got mad and began started asking some very pointed
questions. So have a lot of other people - including Robert Kennedy Jr.

who, like Wagnitz, believes that all vaccines should be thimerosal-free

despite the higher costs involved.

They want to know why, according to some scientists, the estimated
number
of cases of autism has increased a mind-boggling 1,500 percent since
1991,
when the number of childhood vaccinations doubled.

And they want to know why one in every 166 children has autism today
compared to one in every 2,500 in 1991.

"The government says they're just doing a better job of noticing it,"
says
Wagnitz. But anyone who's been around autistic kids and knows how loud
and
disruptive they can be finds that extremely hard to believe, he says.

"I mean, like Robert Kennedy Jr. said, 'Missing a kid with autism is
like
missing a train wreck.' So when they say they're doing a better job of
finding them, I say, 'Then where are all the 30-year-olds and
40-year-olds
with autism?'"

Though he certainly doesn't relish the criticism, Wagnitz says his skin
is
"thicker than leather right now" and that he'll continue to speak out
until
all vaccines are thimerosal-free.

"No one wants to talk about my message. All they want to do is destroy
the
messenger," he says. "I mean, liquid waste needs to go to a hazardous
waste
site if it contains more than 200 parts per billion of mercury. So
anyone
with common sense would say you don't want to be injecting people with
250
times more mercury than hazardous waste.

"What more do you need to know?"


subject: Re: Chemist says mercury linked to autism spike

text:
this is offensive. I am the mother of an autistic, mentally RETARDed 9
year old and am sickened by the diatribe here.  What should be an open
discussion about the mercury controversy and autism has become a
shouting match.  We should focus on the issue and not each other.
Cynde
R. Steve Walz wrote:


author: Robert

text:
"john" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Flu shots no longer contain any Mercury. Ask any real doctor.

Robert


author: JanD

text:
Thanks, keep up the EXCELLENT work, John.

"john" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: just Ed

text:
Robert wrote:

per http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm
"Does the influenza vaccine contain thimerosal?
Yes, the majority of influenza vaccines distributed in the
United States currently contain thimerosal as a preservative."
"Thimerosal contains approximately 49% ethylmercury. "

Mark Probert is correct that mercury is not present in
pediatric vaccines as a result of the advice of the
American Academy of Pediatrics and others.


text: yes, you should http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm, they do


author: eml

text:
pharmacist friend maintains multiple dose vials of flu vaccine all
contain mercury as a preservative/antibacterial.  the single dose vials
do not have mercury as a preservative, but have had mercury added
during the initial processing of the vaccine.  the resultant single
dose vials have a minute amount of mercury, esp in comparison to the
multiple dose  vials.  one can request one's physician order single
dose vial flu vaccine.  It is more expensive.
(2-5-04) BOSTON, Mass. - According to new research from Northeastern
University pharmacy professor Richard Deth and colleagues from the
University of Nebraska, Tufts, and Johns Hopkins University, there is
an apparent link between exposure to certain neurodevelopmental toxins
and an increased possibility of developing neurological disorders
including autism and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. The
research - the first to offer an explanation for possible causes of
two increasingly common childhood neurological disorders - is
published today in the April 2004 issue of the journal Molecular
Psychiatry.

Though some speculation exists regarding this link, Deth and his
colleagues found that exposure to toxins, such as ethanol and heavy
metals (including lead, aluminum and the ethylmercury-containing
preservative thimerosal) potently interrupt growth factor signaling,
causing adverse effects on methylation reactions (i.e. the transfer of
carbon atoms). Methylation, in turn, plays a significant role in
regulating normal DNA function and gene expression, and is critical to
proper neurological development in infants and children. Scientists and
practitioners have identified an increase in diagnoses of autism and
ADHD in particular, though the reasons why are largely unknown.

In their work, the scientists found that insulin-like growth factor-1
(IGF-1) and the neurotransmitter dopamine both stimulated
folate-dependent methylation pathways in neuronal cells. At the same
time they noted that compounds like thimerosal, ethanol and metals
(like lead and mercury) effectively inhibited these same biochemical
pathways at concentrations that are typically found following
vaccination or other sources of exposure. By better understanding what
happens when infants and children are exposed to these materials, the
work of Deth and his colleagues helps to explain how environmental
contact with metals and administration of certain vaccines may lead to
serious disorders that manifest themselves during childhood, including
autism and ADHD.

"Scientists certainly acknowledge that exposure to neurotoxins like
ethanol and heavy metals can cause developmental disorders, but until
now, the precise mechanisms underlying their toxicity have not been
known," said Deth. "The recent increase in the incidence of autism
led us to speculate that environmental exposures, including vaccine
additives might contribute to the triggering of this disorder."

Thimerosal, which was largely phased out in the U.S. and in Europe
starting in 2000,was often used for its preservative abilities in
multi-dose units of vaccines for diseases like hepatitis, whooping
cough, tetanus and diptheria. Today, most vaccines carry only trace
amounts of it, according to the CDC. But in larger, multi-dose vials of
these vaccines, often shipped to and used in third world countries,
thimerosal is still very common. Multi-dose flu vaccines still contain
thimerosal.

Additionally, the scientists recently obtained more insight into the
mechanism by which thimerosal interferes with folate-dependent
methylation. It acts by inhibiting the biosynthesis of the active form
of vitamin B12 (methylcobalamin), which is of particular interest
because doctors treating autistic kids are having good success with the
administration of methycobalamin.

Northeastern University, a private research institution located in
Boston, Massachusetts, is a world leader in practice-oriented
education. Building on its flagship cooperative education program,
Northeastern links classroom learning with workplace experience and
integrates professional preparation with study in the liberal arts and
sciences. U.S. News & World Report, in its annual guide America's
Best Colleges, 2003, ranked Northeastern University number one in the
country among programs that "require or encourage students to apply
what they're learning in the classroom out in the real world." In
addition, Northeastern's career services was top ranked by Kaplan
Newsweek's "Unofficial Insiders Guide to the 320 Most Interesting
Colleges and Universities," 2003 edition. For more information, please
visit http://www.northeastern.edu.

Paper in full at this link:

http://www.nupr.neu.edu/2-04/deth_article.pdf
Mol Psychiatry. 2004 Apr;9(4):358-70. Related Articles, Links

Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 and
dopamine: a target for neurodevelopmental toxins and thimerosal.

Waly M, Olteanu H, Banerjee R, Choi SW, Mason JB, Parker BS, Sukumar S,
Shim S, Sharma A, Benzecry JM, Power-Charnitsky VA, Deth RC.

Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Northeastern University, Boston,
MA 02115, USA.

Methylation events play a critical role in the ability of growth
factors to promote normal development. Neurodevelopmental toxins, such
as ethanol and heavy metals, interrupt growth factor signaling, raising
the possibility that they might exert adverse effects on methylation.
We found that insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1)- and
dopamine-stimulated methionine synthase (MS) activity and
folate-dependent methylation of phospholipids in SH-SY5Y human
neuroblastoma cells, via a PI3-kinase- and MAP-kinase-dependent
mechanism. The stimulation of this pathway increased DNA methylation,
while its inhibition increased methylation-sensitive gene expression.
Ethanol potently interfered with IGF-1 activation of MS and blocked its
effect on DNA methylation, whereas it did not inhibit the effects of
dopamine. Metal ions potently affected IGF-1 and dopamine-stimulated MS
activity, as well as folate-dependent phospholipid methylation: Cu(2+)
promoted enzyme activity and methylation, while Cu(+), Pb(2+), Hg(2+)
and Al(3+) were inhibitory. The ethylmercury-containing preservative
thimerosal inhibited both IGF-1- and dopamine-stimulated methylation
with an IC(50) of 1 nM and eliminated MS activity. Our findings outline
a novel growth factor signaling pathway that regulates MS activity and
thereby modulates methylation reactions, including DNA methylation. The
potent inhibition of this pathway by ethanol, lead, mercury, aluminum
and thimerosal suggests that it may be an important target of
neurodevelopmental toxins.

PMID: 14745455 [PubMed - in process]


author: Peter Bowditch

text:
[email] wrote:

There is no "mercury controversy" other than the one being fueled by
anti-vaccination liars.


text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

That'a correct Cynde.

Sorry you have witnesses such hatred here.

Sadly the issue gets lost. Sorry to hear of your child. As a mother myself,
I know this has brought you much grief.

The issue of the fact that thimerosal has been been and still is a factor in
autism is denied by a certain group here, whose ONLY interst is in
protecting *organized medicine*

They will claim there is no evidence of a link, even though the evidence has
clearly been posted.

Good luck with your child and thank you for posting.

 http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
      Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
      Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
      By ###
      Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday

By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.

For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.

But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.

The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.

In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.

Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice

A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
[email]

ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032


author: Mark Probert

text:
Robert wrote:

I asked the CDC and they said:

"Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu) vaccines, none of the
vaccines used in the U.S. to protect preschool children against 12
infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative."

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/thimerosal/default.htm


text:
"Robert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm

Updated: September 14, 2004

Does the influenza vaccine contain thimerosal?

Yes, the majority of influenza vaccines distributed in the United States
currently contain thimerosal as a preservative.


text:
"just Ed" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Proving Robert was WRONG.

[snip irrelevant issue to this thread]


text:
"just Ed" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
"Peter Bowditch" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

There is the denial I spoke of.


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:wW_of.451$[email]...

Take note of the FACT that Mark did NOT have the integrity to correct,
Robert's statement!

Why's more, YOU didn't ask, you looked it up. You simply can NOT post
without LYING.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm

Updated: September 22, 2005

Is influenza vaccine that does not contain thimerosal as a preservative
available this flu season (2005-2006)?

For the 2005-06 flu season, a* limited amount* of influenza vaccine that
does not contain thimerosal as a preservative is available. Sanofi pasteur
estimates that they will produce 6-8 million doses of thimerosal-free
vaccine this year. GlaxoSmithKline projects that they will produce 8 million
doses of preservative-free vaccine for use in people 18 years of age and
over. A minimal number of preservative-free vaccine may be available from
Chiron late in the influenza season. Also, the nasal-spray influenza vaccine
(sold commercially as FluMistï¿½) does not contain any thimerosal and can be
given to healthy people 5 to 49 years of age who are not pregnant.

This is ALL a diversion from what John posted.

Restored:

http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/index.php?ntid=65414&ntpid=2

Rob Zaleski: Chemist says mercury linked to autism spike

By Rob Zaleski
December 16, 2005

Write a letter to the editor.

[email]
Letter to the editor
Tell us what you think

About Rob

Rob Zaleski is a 32-year veteran of the news business. His columns
appear
every Monday and Wednesday in the Communities section.
<mailto:[email]>E-mail <mailto:[email]>Email
Rob

His detractors call him an alarmist.

"They hate me," Mike Wagnitz acknowledged in an interview this week.

But if that's what it takes to get people's attention, hey, call him an

alarmist or anything else you want, Wagnitz said with a laugh.

A senior state chemist, Wagnitz is making health experts uneasy because
of
his public statements urging people to think twice before getting a flu

shot this season. He thinks the shots are especially risky for pregnant

women and young kids.

Why? Because about 95 percent of the doses being distributed this
winter
contain thimerosal, the mercury-based preservative that Wagnitz and
others
believe is responsible for the startling increase in autism cases in
the
United States since the early 1990s.

The federal government says that's hokum, noting that despite years of
study there's no scientific evidence that mercury in vaccines causes
autism. However, as a precaution, the U.S. Public Health Service in the

late 1990s asked manufacturers to start phasing thimerosal out of
childhood
vaccines.

In fact, both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention say flu shots are absolutely essential
for
pregnant women and infants 6 to 23 months old. As for potential risks,
they
claim that the amount of thimerosal in a child's dose is so tiny it
poses
virtually no risk at all - a claim Wagnitz says is "pure propaganda."

Still, health experts admit they have more questions than answers about

autism. As the National Institute of Mental Health noted in its 2005
annual
report on autism to Congress, "There are no effective means to prevent
the
disorder, no fully effective treatment and no cure."

Wagnitz, 52, has been speaking out about the possible link between
vaccines
and autism for several years now, ever since his daughter Josie, now 8,
was
diagnosed with autism in 2001.

To say he was shocked would be a colossal understatement, says Wagnitz,

"because, frankly, I'd never even heard of autism before that. I was
this
trusting person who just did what the doctor told me to do."

Then he began doing some research, and the deeper he dug, the more
troubled
he became. After doing "some simple fifth-grade math," Wagnitz says he
figured out that the amount of mercury in flu shots - 50,000 micrograms
per
liter in the multi-dose vials - is 250 times the amount that's
considered
safe for liquid hazardous waste.

That's when he got mad and began started asking some very pointed
questions. So have a lot of other people - including Robert Kennedy Jr.

who, like Wagnitz, believes that all vaccines should be thimerosal-free

despite the higher costs involved.

They want to know why, according to some scientists, the estimated
number
of cases of autism has increased a mind-boggling 1,500 percent since
1991,
when the number of childhood vaccinations doubled.

And they want to know why one in every 166 children has autism today
compared to one in every 2,500 in 1991.

"The government says they're just doing a better job of noticing it,"
says
Wagnitz. But anyone who's been around autistic kids and knows how loud
and
disruptive they can be finds that extremely hard to believe, he says.

"I mean, like Robert Kennedy Jr. said, 'Missing a kid with autism is
like
missing a train wreck.' So when they say they're doing a better job of
finding them, I say, 'Then where are all the 30-year-olds and
40-year-olds
with autism?'"

Though he certainly doesn't relish the criticism, Wagnitz says his skin
is
"thicker than leather right now" and that he'll continue to speak out
until
all vaccines are thimerosal-free.

"No one wants to talk about my message. All they want to do is destroy
the
messenger," he says. "I mean, liquid waste needs to go to a hazardous
waste
site if it contains more than 200 parts per billion of mercury. So
anyone
with common sense would say you don't want to be injecting people with
250
times more mercury than hazardous waste.

"What more do you need to know?"


text:
JanD wrote:

Jan, I had already posted:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm

which covered the issue. Are you obsessed with having the last word?


text:
JanD wrote:

I am surprised that you did not call him a liar. Perhaps next time.

Restored:

Mark Probert is correct that mercury is not present in
pediatric vaccines as a result of the advice of the
American Academy of Pediatrics and others.

That is not irrelevant, as you bleated and brayed about my post which
JustEd was referring to. You see, I was correct, and you are a sick
woman who should check into:

Meadows Hospital
3600 North Prow Road
Bloomington, IN  47404

A good rest will do you good.


text:
JanD wrote:

Are you really this stupid? What I posted clearly corrects what Robert
said. You are really getting more ill by the post. Perhaps checking into
a rest home would help.

I went to the CDC website, and looked it up. So what if I used the verb
"asked"?

You are really a very sick woman. Please get help.


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Vwgpf.722$[email]...

You simply can NOT post without LYING.

The FACT is, you did NOT post, the above link, *I* did.

You posted:

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/thimerosal/default.htm


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:zrgpf.719$[email]...

Take note, NOT only was I correct, Mark now adds  his usual insult.

Take note, NOT only was I correct, Mark now adds his usual insult.


text:
JanD wrote:

I was incorrect. I had the wrong URL in the clipboard. This is what I
posted:

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/thimerosal/default.htm

Now, are you so obsessed with having the last word?


text:
JanD wrote:

JanD(isingenuous) snips what she cannot handle. Restored:

Mark Probert is correct that mercury is not present in
pediatric vaccines as a result of the advice of the
American Academy of Pediatrics and others.

That is not irrelevant, as you bleated and brayed about my post which
JustEd was referring to. You see, I was correct, and you are a sick
woman who should check into:

Meadows Hospital
3600 North Prow Road
Bloomington, IN  47404

A good rest will do you good.


text:
JanD wrote:

Take responsibility of realizing that you were WRRONG. I posted what was
clearly a correction of what Robert posted. No one, not even you, would
be that stupid not to see it as such, and, therefore, I felt that there
was no need to point it out any further.

As for the insult, calling me a liar over this nitpicking on your part
IS an insult to me. If you dish it out, expect it back exponentially.

As for the insult, calling me a liar over this nitpicking on your part
IS an insult to me. If you dish it out, expect it back exponentially.

BTW, it is a 'usual insult' as that is what you deserve.


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:fgmpf.2103$[email]...

Not obssesed at all.

You STILL have not learned to STOP posting off the top of your head.


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:iempf.2100$[email]...

Name calling, Mark Probert lies AGAIN.

It was snipped because it was totally irrelevant to the issue.

Nothing was said about pediatric vaccines in this thread.

[snip irrelevant issue to this thread]


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9dmpf.2097$[email]...

Take note of the FACT that Mark did NOT have the integrity to correct,
Robert's statement. That means saying, Robert, you are wrong.

Mark can NOT correct another *GANG* member.

*I* was NOT wrong.

No one, not even you, would

 YOU being a LIAR is a FACT, not an insult.

YOU being a LIAR is a FACT, not an insult.


text:
JanD wrote:

I see that you had to have the last word. Now, who is obsessed? Hmmm?????


author: Rich

text:
"JanD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Y0qpf.412789$084.184530@attbi_s22...

Tell us you are not really that stupid, Jan. The subject title of this
thread is, "Chemist says mercury linked to autism spike." Where do you think
the mercury in question supposedly came from? Tuna sandwiches? Amalgam
fillings in newly erupted baby teeth? Perhaps their mothers had obtained a
secret supply of Thimerosal and were spiking their pablum with it.

Sheesh!


text:
JanD wrote:

I posted a quote from the CDC which mentioned pediatric vaccines within
the larger issue of thimerosal in vaccines. YOU constantly change thread
direction by bringing in amalgams, Jesse, etc. etc. etc. My quote was
far more on topic than you will ever be.

Like I have told you thousands of times, when you post in a thread, and
you abuse, as you have done here, the thread becomes about you.

JanD(isingenuous) snips what she cannot handle. Restored:

That is not irrelevant, as you bleated and brayed about my post which
JustEd was referring to. You see, I was correct, and you are a sick
woman who should check into:

Meadows Hospital
3600 North Prow Road
Bloomington, IN  47404

Jan, you sure do need a check-up from the neck-up.

Get help.


text:
JanD wrote:

Stop being a nitpicking moron. No one in their right mind, which
apparently excludes you, does not see what I posted as being a
correction of what Robert posted and impliedly telling him he was wrong.

If YOU want specific words, tell your bitch handler that she was WRONG
for emailing my wife, and Andrew Langer's wife. Otherwise, place it
where the sun does not shine.

I guess YOU proved that YOU are that stupid.

A fact only in your bigoted imagination.

You will get it back exponentially. Wait and see.


text:
"Rich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:kiqpf.4068$[email]...

I am not stupid. Rich.

Nothing was said about pediatric vaccines in this thread.

*Flu shots no longer contain any Mercury. Ask any real doctor.

Robert*

Your question of who is stupid, should have been to Robert..


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:JSypf.1396$[email]...

Irrelevant.

YOU say nothing about pediatric vaccines.
.


text:
"Mark Probert" <[email]> wrote in message
news:uPypf.1395$[email]...

Like I have long stated, you did NOT have the guts to tell another *gang*
member, they are WRONG!

OOOPSSS.

Diversion Alert!

You have NO integrity, Mark Probert!


author: R. Steve Walz

text:
JanD wrote:
--------------------------------
HEY! YOU! Yeah YOU, you SHITHEADED RETARD!!

The whole Autism Controversy is related ONLY to
***PEDIATRIC VACCINES*** BY DEFINITION!!!
Steve


text:
"JanD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:oMrpf.654900$xm3.576357@attbi_s21...

Do you know what a "thread" is, Jan? Even this branch of the thread began
with 'just ed' saying, "Mark Probert is correct that mercury is not present
in pediatric vaccines as a result of the advice of the American Academy of
Pediatrics and others."

If I made such a blunder, you would be calling me a "liar," but since I,
unlike you, know the difference between a mistake and a lie, I shall not
make that accusation of you.


text:
JanD wrote:

What I 'said' was a quote posted from the CDC website which mentioned
pediatric vaccines. Do go upthread and take a look.

Restored. Jan thinks that snipping makes it go away.

Like I have told you thousands of times, when you post in a thread, and
you abuse, as you have done here, the thread becomes about you.

JanD(isingenuous) snips what she cannot handle. Restored:

That is not irrelevant, as you bleated and brayed about my post which
JustEd was referring to. You see, I was correct, and you are a sick
woman who should check into:

Meadows Hospital
3600 North Prow Road
Bloomington, IN  47404

Jan, you sure do need a check-up from the neck-up.

Get help.


text:
JanD wrote:

No, stupid, like I said, I thought people were intelligent enough to
figure that out for themselves. I apologize for overestimating your
intelligence. In the future, I will assume that you do not have any at all.

BTW, Jan, since you are an obsessed nitpicker, I will send you a copy of
the yet to be released book, "1001 Things to Do With Nits For Dummies."

There is no diversion. I am giving a perfect example of how you demand
something that is utterly insignificant, but will not even address
something that, if it were done to you, you would be bleating and
braying to someone's ISP.


text:
"Rich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:aQspf.5983$[email]...

Of course, I do, WHY do you ask?

The subject is NOT about what *I* know!

Even this branch of the thread began

Ed was completely wrong. Mark had NOT said one word about pediatric vaccines
in this thread.

It was completely *irrelevant* to this thread, period


author: George Bako

subject: A few 486 PC's for sale

text:
I have for sale these 4 computers:

486dx/33                                486dx/33
8 megs ram                              8 megs ram
1.44 and 1.2 floppy                     1.44 floppy
2 hard drives (210m & 170m)             2 hard drives (210m & 130m)
Trident SVGA video (1meg)               Trident SVGA video (1meg)
Keyboard                                Keyboard
Mouse                                   Mouse
Mini Tower Case                         Mini Tower Case
DOS 6.22/Windows 3.11                   DOS 6.22/Windows 3.11
Sound Blaster

Asking price: $500                      Asking price: $450

486sx/33                                486sx/25 Vesa Local Bus
8 megs ram                              8 megs ram
1.44 & 1.2 floppy                       1.44 floppy
2 hard drives (210m & 130m)             2 hard drives (130m & 80m)
Trident 1 meg SVGA card (1 meg)         Trident 9440 SVGA VL-Bus card (1meg)
Keyboard                                Keyboard
Mouse                                   Mouse
Mini Tower case                         Mini Tower Case
DOS 6.22/Windows 3.11                   DOS 6.22/Windows 3.11

Asking price: $425                      Asking price: $400

Send mail if interested to "[email]"  Thanks!


author: PaulKing

subject: Re: Toxic drugs are good for you

text:
Dissident position confirmed by new study: -

Cocaine May Compromise Immune System, Increase Risk of Infection Learn
About Hepatitis C

Research Summary
by Patrick Zickler
NIDA NOTES Staff Writer

Cocaine abusers are more likely than nonusers to suffer from HIV,
hepatitis, sexually transmitted diseases, and other infections. Most of
this increased incidence is the result of conditions and behaviors -- for
example, injecting drugs, poor nutrition, and unsafe sex -- that often are
associated with drug abuse. Now, NIDA-supported investigators at the
McLean Hospital Alcohol and Drug Abuse Research Center in Belmont,
Massachusetts, have found that cocaine itself has a direct biological
effect that may decrease an abuser's ability to fight off infections.

Dr. John H. Halpern, along with colleagues at McLean Hospital and Harvard
Medical School, found that a key immune system component, a protein called
interleukin-6 (IL-6), responded less robustly to an immunological
challenge in male and female abusers injected with cocaine than in those
who received placebo. "When your body detects a foreign object, IL-6 helps
trigger the release of a cascade of other immune system components that
isolate and neutralize the threat," explains Dr. Halpern. "If the balance
of this response is disrupted, your body cannot fight infection as
effectively as it should."

The study involved 30 participants (16 women, 14 men, ages 21-35) with a
history of cocaine abuse, including at least one drug administration
within the past month. The investigators placed an intravenous catheter in
one arm of each participant and measured IL-6 levels. The catheter is
detected as foreign by the body's immune system and triggers an immune
response. After 30 minutes, the researchers injected cocaine or saline
solution (0.4 mg/kg) into each participant's other arm; 4 hours later,
they measured IL-6 levels again. In participants given saline, IL-6 levels
had more than quintupled in response to the presence of the catheter,
increasing from an average of less than 2 trillionths of a gram
(picograms, or pg) per milliliter of blood to an average of more than 11
pg/ml. In men and women who received cocaine, however, IL-6 levels barely
doubled--from less than 2 pg/ml to an average of 3.8 pg/ml.

"The findings in this study show that in people with a history of cocaine
abuse, exposure to the drug establishes conditions that can lead to
immediate harm," Dr. Halpern says. "In such subjects, we found that
cocaine impairs the body's defense system for at least 4 hours. We can't
rule out the possibility that IL-6 response returns to normal shortly
after that time. But even if the blunted immune response lasts only a few
hours, it makes it more likely that an infection like HIV or just a common
cold can take hold," Dr. Halpern says.

"This research suggests a link between cocaine use and compromised immune
response and could help explain the high incidence of infectious disease
among drug abusers," observes Dr. Steven Grant of NIDA's Division of
Treatment Research and Development. "It reminds us that the health
consequences of drug abuse reach far beyond disruption of the brain
systems involved in abuse and addiction."

The findings also have significance in another context, Dr. Grant adds.
"The IL-6 findings are a small but possibly significant part of a much
larger study designed to gather a wide range of information on the acute
and chronic effects of abused drugs on the brain, endocrine system, and
immune function. This kind of discovery-based research can yield
unexpected, sometimes important, insights."

SOURCE: Halpern, J.H., et al. Diminished interleukin-6 response to
proinflammatory challenge in men and women after intravenous cocaine
administration. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism
88(3):1188-1193, 2003.


author: GMCarter

subject: Re: Toxic drugs are good for you

text:
On Sat, 01 May 2004 04:53:03 -0400, "PaulKing"
<[email]> wrote:

Which position? That  HCV hasn't been proven to exist? The article
doesn't say that!

It doesn't say cocaine CAUSES anything. However, it DOES say that it
fucks up the immune system (increased IL6) and in turn increases
susceptibility to infections. Duh. Like that's news.

But does cocaine use cause AIDS? No. Or liver disease even? No. Nasty
drug...can make a person psychotic in high enough doses or in forms
like crack.

Indeed, I'll bet alcohol does similar things. There are other
important cytokine dysregulations involved in the immune dysregulation
that excessive use of some substances can result in....however,
nowhere is there evidence that these result in persistently declining
CD4 counts, even when the drug is stopped. What they do is establish a
fertile ground for infections like HCV and HIV to take hold.

		George M. Carter

snip


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Toxic drugs are good for you

text:
GMCarter <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

YOu do know what AIDS stands for don't you? The name does not in
itself imply that "AIDS" is caused by HIV or in fact anything.
I hope you can see you just contradicted yourself.


subject: Re: Toxic drugs are good for you

text:
On 2 May 2004 19:36:09 -0700, [email] wrote:

Now you're just playing a stupid semantic game.

Actually, I call AIDS the Acquired Immune Dysregulation Syndrome since
aspects of immune function are put into overdrive in HIV disease.

By the name alone, then you are accurate but remain incorrect. That
is, yes, MANY different agents can cause some kind of deficiency in
immune function. So it would be accurate to say alcohol causes AIDS by
a strict definition of each term in the word, but it would be
incorrect as there is an established clinical definition of AIDS that
includes a depletion of CD4+ lymphocytes. This deterioration in
cell-mediated immunity results in increased susceptibility to
infections. This is caused by HIV.

Not alcohol. Not cocaine. Not heroin. Not MDMA. Not AZT. Not
antibiotics. Not malnutrition. Not cancer chemotherapy. Not poppers.

NONE of those things causes AIDS by the clinical definition. Some may
alter immune function--but only temporarily and restoration of
function occurs when a drug is stopped, nutrition is provided.

Wow. If this is the kind of childish argumentativeness that you have
to stoop to in order to present an argument...well, the term "troll"
leaps to mind!

Best of luck!

		George M. Carter


subject: Re: Toxic drugs are good for you

text:
GMCarter <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

So you call definitions a "semantic game". Shows how much you know
about science.
As usual you make a whole lot of sweeping claims without backing them
up with any references. Why should anyone believe you, except that you
do a reasonable job of looking as if you know what you are talking
about to the layman. I doubt any other impartial reader would give you
credibility.


subject: Re: Toxic drugs are good for you

text:
On 3 May 2004 07:55:37 -0700, [email] wrote:

snip

Not in the slightest. Definitions ARE important. In your case, you
were about to play a stupid semantic game that failed to distinguish
between the term and its clinical reference. Perhaps that points to a
poverty of imagination in those that came up with "AIDS" per se, but
it does not obviate a diagnosis.

LOL! Look at my other posts. I give plenty of references. And I
actually read the ones denialists post and so far, they are mostly
lame, old, confused and wrong.

Take care, dear.

		George M. Carter


author: Bruce Galbraith

subject: Grant info.

text:
Does anyone know of a source for information on grants?
This would be for a small bussness.

Thank you in advance for your help.


author: Herman Holtz

subject: Re: Grant info.

text:
Bruce Galbraith ([email]) wrote:
: Does anyone know of a source for information on grants?
: This would be for a small bussness.
:
: Thank you in advance for your help.

For government grants, see the GPO publication Catalog of Federal
Domestic Assistance, but you can access it on the web by looking up
government. It is listed there, although I don't have a URL for it at hand.
                                 * * *
Herman Holtz [[email]]: Marketing Consultant/Proposal Specialist,
Writing & Ghost Writing Services, 35 years experience. Author of 60+
professional/business books, including best-selling How to Succeed as an
Independent Consultant (Wiley). PO Box 1731, Wheaton, MD 20915. Tel:
301-649-2499. Fax: 301-649-5745.


author: jason schwager

subject: Re: Grant info.

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
(Bruce Galbraith) wrote:

Yes, a super source is the Grants Library in San Francisco.
If my memory is correct, it's two  blocks from Union Square
on Sutter street.  I recall it being on the third floor (a walkup).

It is very complete, and has video's for the newbie to get
acquainted with what and how to do the research.  They have
all the research sources there, but you have to pay 25 cents a
page to use the photocopier machine.  Well worth it.

The librarians are friendly and the library is free, so any
donation to them would likely be grateful.

- jason schwager                  [email]


author: Tom Simonds

subject: Re: Grant info.

text:
[email] (Bruce Galbraith) writes:

The main work in this field is a book called _Getting Grants_. Tells
everything from sources, how to write 'em is most important thing you
need to know, which is covered in detail.


author: venkatesh

subject: CAIPS question!!!

text:
Hi experts:

1. Does the knowledge of the CAIPS file reveal the exact date of
interview?
2. If a selection decision is not made before March 31st 02, the file
will be assessed under the new system with the pass mark of 70. In that
case, what will be the grounds on which a decision be made as oppposed
to the old system during the interview?

Thanks,


author: Andrew Miller

subject: Re: CAIPS question!!!

text:
1. Yes - once interview is scheduled the date appears in CAIPS file.

2. The grounds will be new immigration law (IRPA and it's Regulations), new
selection criteria, new points grid and pass mark (for applications received
before 2002 70 points, for all other 75 points at present).


author: David Cohen

subject: Re: CAIPS question!!!

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] says...

Until the interview date is actually scheduled, the CAIPS notes do not
contain this information. At the time that the interview is scheduled,
the applicant is notified anyhow.

Applicants assessed after March 31 2003, the case will be assessed on
the basis of a pass mark of 70 under the new criteria. Additional
information on this topic may be found at Campbell, Cohen's web site at
the following URL:

http://canadavisa.com/documents/fedsel/
________
CAMPBELL, COHEN - attorneys at law
tel:514.937.9445 / fax:514.937.2618
[email]
http://canadavisa.com

Online Community: http://canadavisa.com/community


author: Dom

subject: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
The article by Neal Koblitz, a professor of mathematics at the
University of Washington/Seattle, was posted by Jerry Becker. Part I is
at:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=323&threadID=734541

Part II is at:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=323&threadID=734542

The following excerpt is at the beginning of PART II

Dom Rosa
=====================

Anti-Intellectual Appeal

Computers reinforce the fascination with gadgetry, as opposed to
intellect, that is endemic in American popular culture. As pointed out
by Brian Simpson, former education advisor to IBM in the United
Kingdom,

Technological solutions to educational problems often have a seductive
appeal, promising to make education easier and more enjoyable than ever
before. In the past, extravagant claims have been made for teaching
machines, educational television, language laboratories, and even such
improbable, esoteric phenomena as sleep learning and learning under
music-induced hypnosis. [15, p. 84]

There is a long history of people wanting and expecting technology to
transform education. It has been over 70 years since the following
prediction was made by a famous American:

I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely, if
not entirely, the use of textbooks. -Thomas Edison, 1922 (quoted in
Ref. 2, p. 9)


author: Dave Chamberlain

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
In k12.chat.teacher Dom <[email]> wrote:
: Computers reinforce the fascination with gadgetry, as opposed to
: intellect, that is endemic in American popular culture. As pointed out
: by Brian Simpson, former education advisor to IBM in the United
: Kingdom,

I contend that the ballpoint pen is a gadget and, at one time, was
a technological breakthrough.  Luckily there was a facination in this,
gadget or not, and consequently we no longer need to resort to fountain pens!

As someone who came from the computer field (25 years as a software
engineer) prior to teaching, I have an entirely different view on computers
in the classroom.

As pointed out by another poster, the computer is a tool, just as
the pencil is. 100 years ago there weren't TVs in classrooms either, I
don't think TV use in the classroom has taken over the art of teaching.
I don't know any teachers who use video INSTEAD of teaching,
they use videos to illustrate things that can't easily be done in
the classroom.  Videos are used as a tool to provide information to the
student that they can't otherwise get.  For example, watching a video
of a moonwalk is far different than reading about it in the book or
even looking at still pictures.

I think that the perception is often that the computer will replace
things, and maybe it will.  However, it isn't going to replace standard
lessons, nor should we think of it that way.  The computer CAN be used,
like the video, to provide alternate means to learning something.

I don't teach word processing skills as a lesson.  However, when my
students write poetry or a short story.  I will often book the computers
so they can put them on the computer.  First off, it provides another
opportunity for write-rewrite.  It also prepares them for upper grades
when they will need to type reports.  My use of computers is as a tool.

Recently we were talking about Mount Vesuvius, the students (grade 5) saw
pictures of Pompeii in the book, and we read and discussed things as
normal.  However, this year I used "Google Earth" and projected it on the
LCD projector.  I was able to zoom in on our school, via satellite imagery
and then "fly" to Italy and hover over Vesuvius.  "Google Earth" then
provided a way for me to tilt the ground and by overlaying topographical
maps on the sat images, it was able to bend the image to show the actual
landscape.  We were able to fly into the crater and around it.  They could
examine the distance to the ocean and it gave them a new perspective on
the same information that I had already been teaching anyhow.  When we
returned to talking about it, they all had a much better understanding of
the size of things, where it was, etc.

Some may claim that this segment "facinated them due to the gadgetry"
invovled;  I'd prefer to think that I provided an enaging lesson that
they'll never forget.  In fact, I received a couple notes from parents asking
what the software was because their kids were talking about it.

-davec
-----------------------------------------------------------------


author: Bob LeChevalier

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
"Dom" <[email]> wrote:

The public education system teaches what the public wants its kids to
be educated in.  The public wants kids to learn technology, and the
public wants to use "seductive technologies" whenever possible.

Those who want something else can pay a private school for it.  If
they are willing to pay, then no doubt someone will be willing to
offer it.

lojbab


subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:

I have not seen much evidence that would support the above claim.   DR


author: toto

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
On 8 Mar 2006 20:55:48 -0800, "Dom" <[email]> wrote:

Computers are tools, pencils are tools.  Proper use of tools does
work, improper use of tools doesn't work.


author: Halm

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
I think a computer will be (in future) used as a device like a knife, a
fork,  a fork a spoon  a pair of shoes etc.
Think of the absence of all silverware in your house ....  what would
you do then ....

a machine needs to be jugded whether it works properly or not and at
school this is necessary for kids to understand but you wont be able to
relinquish in that.

kids need to learn what the machine does
there is NO alternative


author: Kevin Killion

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
Dave Chamberlain <[email]> wrote:

That is a wonderful use of computers in the classroom!

No, wait, let me edit that:  It is a wonderful use of ONE computer in a
classroom.  And that's all that was needed for this nice demonstration.

Oh, one more edit:  this is a wonderful use of ONE computer ONE time.
It's not the kind of thing that comes up with constant regularity.

-- Kevin Killion


author: Victor Eijkhout

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
toto <[email]> wrote:

Computers are Turing-equivalent, teachers are Turing-equivalent. That's
where the trouble begins.

Victor.


author: Beach Runner

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
Halm wrote:

Working in the computer industry, and having had one of the first
classes with 15 Apples.  I was an innovator in computers in the
classroom and published as such.

People think of computers as some kind of magic solution. They are far
from that.  Sadly, many teachers are incompetent in how to use computers
as tools.  They can be a great adjunct for instruction.

In language arts, children can communicate with other children around
the world.  The writing/editing process has changed dramatically, and
the teacher can easily feed back after a draft and students can learn
with the improvement.

While it is clearly up to the teacher to present the concepts and ideas,
gradual drills and practice are beyond the patience of most teachers,
and could hardly be individualized. Back in the 80s I had a step son go
through eduware, and learned the basics of arithmetic way beyond his
grade level.  The software was excellent.

Heck, while I was a computer teacher, I learned Pascal through CAI.  I
went on to teach it at the college level.

I have gone through MANY classes at the corporate level that were done
on computer.  They presented ideas, and looped back if I didn't
demonstrate competency.

Perhaps one of the most exciting uses is distance learning.  I rarely
travel to classes and more, they are completed with one of the distance
learning programs. An expert talks, displays on my computer, and we all
can ask questions.  There are students from around the world.  It's
strange, registering for a class and having to figure out Singapore time.

Thus, places like Peru can have classes interactive classes taught by
experts, that the students would not otherwise have access to.  Sadly,
this technology is rarely used.

While one of my Masters was indeed from Teachers College, Columbia,
this professor is taking a very narrow and antiquated view. Clearly, how
one uses computers is critical.

He attacks their use of resources.  Using computers stretches human
power significantly.  How else can the offering of a school include
expertise not available locally. And, even much more expensive expertise
that is not a reasonable cost for a local school, but certainly could be
shared.  How many little schools in the Mountains of Peru, or an
isolated village in Alaska have someone that is really knowledgeable
about Chemistry, Calculus, musical composition, C++, machine language,
Unix internals, or the like. How about learning the history of China
from someone in China?  The possibilities are tremendous.

The costs of computers have gone way down. With the costs of networking
have plummeted.  And the costs continue to plummet.

Yes, children still need to learn penmanship, concepts, have extensive
human interaction. This will free the teacher for concepts, emotional
interaction and other areas.

This is the tool that is the standard in life.  To reject this is
education is absurd.  A teacher must be functional to prepare students
for life.  It would be like a teacher in the 30s not knowing how to read
or write.  While those remain the basic tools of society, so is computer
competence.


subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
In k12.chat.teacher Kevin Killion <[email]> wrote:

: That is a wonderful use of computers in the classroom!

Thanks.

: No, wait, let me edit that:  It is a wonderful use of ONE computer in a
: classroom.  And that's all that was needed for this nice demonstration.

Um, still thanks?

: Oh, one more edit:  this is a wonderful use of ONE computer ONE time.
: It's not the kind of thing that comes up with constant regularity.

OH wait, you forgot that it was ONE lesson!

Hey, I don't use the overhead every day either, but I don't want to get
rid of it.  Heck, I don't use the social studies book on a daily basis
either!  I also had mentioned that I had them typing their poetry projects
into a computer.  That sort of thing doesn't happen just once it happens
often.

It is very easy to integrate things like that into the lesson, far easier
than people often think.  The key is not to make the lesson revolve around
the technology, but instead to make the technology piece enhance the lesson.

I've used it a variety of things in many places from investigating solar
rooms and how to design one through using digital photography when we were
studying angles.


author: Robert Israel

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
In article <[email]>,
Victor Eijkhout <[email]> wrote:


author: Herman Rubin

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
In article <[email]>,
Victor Eijkhout <[email]> wrote:

I agree.  The teachers are ONLY Turing-equivalent, and
try to make sure that the students end up that way.


author: Serial Killfiler

subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text: On 9 Mar 2006 21:02:37 GMT, [email] (Robert Israel) wrote:


subject: Re: Case Against Computers K-13

text:
In article <duq55d$5i2$[email]>,
Robert Israel <[email]> wrote:

It depends on the complexity of the Turing machine.

As I recall, there is one with 7 states and a 4-letter
alphabet.  I think a teacher could follow that large
a set of instructions.


author: AmazingAccuracy Dot Com

subject: Money Management and Risk Control

text:
=============================
  Money Management and Risk Control
=============================

The profitable trader is one that not only has made the committment to be a
profitable trader, to do all the things with all seriousness towards
consistent profits, to do it all with the required discipline, but is one
that also puts great emphasis on managing his/her account and properly
assessing risk.

Many traders fail for a variety of reasons. They lack the discipline
required to focus on the goal of becoming a consistently profitable trader.
In the process, the idea of Money Management and Risk Control rarely ever
gets front bidding in their trade planning.

There are many suggestions offered by various trading professionals and
gurus, living and now deceased, on how much you should risk on any given
trade. W. D. Gann suggested risking no more than 10% of your account on any
given trade. Others have suggested as little as 2%. How much you should risk
on any given trade really comes down to your account size and the
particulars of the trade.

For example, if a trader only has $3000 in his/her trading account, 2% would
mean that this trader could never put on a trade. 10% would mean that the
trader could trade some markets at certain times, depending on how risk
exposure is calculated for the trade in question, and could not trade other
markets that usually would require a greater risk than just $300.

Another factor that should affect how much one can risk per trade,
percentage-wise, is the parameters of the system being used to trade by. If
the method of trading often results in more a high win/loss ratio, this
would certainly allow greater latitude on how much can be risked per trade
than a method or system that had a lower win/loss ratio. The more effective
the method, the higher the percentage one can risk per trade.

Whatever the method, whatever the risk percentages, it is very important
that the trader develop the discipline and committment to stick to the
planned trades. Never risk more than what has already been determined as the
maximum amount to risk on any given trade. Never allow a loss to grow beyond
what has been predetermined as the maximum drawdown for any trade.

As part of Money Management and Risk Control is to allow your profits to
ride. Simply minimizing the maximum loss on any trade will likely not be
enough if you also cut your profits short. Often a trader sees the profits
already accumulated and starts getting concerned that it might disappear if
not taken immediately. This is a formula for failure, and it adds additional
pressure on your ability to win more trades than you lose. If trades are
allowed to ride with a trailing stop pre-determined by some valid method for
managing risk, this takes pressure off your method to produce winning trades
at a very high percentage.

W. D. Gann was very liberal in his suggested 10% risk suggestion per trade
because he based it on his particular method of trading. Those of us that
understand Gann and his methods well can understand why it can be so
liberal. However, most traders use methods that are less effective at
winning more profitable trades, and therefore must make the proper
adjustments by using lower risk percentages.

Many years ago I came to understand the importance of minimizing risk
exposure, since I started out trading in 1989 with very little available
capital. In addition, it became evident that many traders start out with a
small amount in hopes of building it up. Thus, having a method that allows
for lower risk exposure and also increases the win/loss ratio became very
important.

The Precision Trading Membership, now in its 10th year, was created to
address these common issues with traders. Precision Timing is achieved by
way of geometric and cyclic timing methods, and Guidelines are provided to
teach the trader how to use the results to minimize risk exposure and win
more trades. Discipline needs direction, and direction is what the trader
will find within the PROGNOS Precision Trading Membership.

http://www.amazingaccuracy.com

"Know Today the Market Turns of Tomorrow!"


author: truth-b-told

subject: Re: Money Management and Risk Control

text:
On May 30, 11:02 am, "AmazingAccuracy Dot Com" <[email]>
wrote:

Say Ricky,

Didn't you "re-write" this in a previous post you made over the past
4-5 years? How many times do you have to "re-write the same post?"

You know NOTHING about money management while a trade is on. Shall I
try and find a few posts, where you bless us with your knowledge on
how to trade?

Do a search of "Ratchford trades," or a "Ratchford Cattle" trade comes
to mind, where Ricky is in a trade, then he tries his best to spin it
and twist his fill numbers, exit strategies, profits made, etc...and
he gives an explanation on how the trade should proceed.....Once the
trade goes the other way, watch the Ratchford SPINTWISTY. Ricky uses
NO STOPS, but Gann did!!!! Oh, the hourly indicated a top, but we'll
move on the weekly data, and we might be a few days early, but we'll
sweat it out and see if a turn can go my way......then when that
fails, Ricky will chime in with his "monthly ANALysis," and see if
that one can get close to being somewhat correct. You have to read
between the lines with Ricky's SPINTWISTIES, and look at the facts
from ALL ANGLES!!!! Ricky does NOT tell the truth...NEVER has, and
NEVER WILL....So....Buyer Beware, if Ricky Ratford is there!!!!

Sincerely,
gerillio.

PS....Notice that Rick doesn't even follow his own money management
guesses in his essay above....You can find numerous examples in this
MIF site, about Ricky handling his own trades....He simply doesn't
follow his own rules, but he wants you to think he does.....and that
my friends, is why Ricky is a PEDDLER and a TROLLER!!!! He wants to be
impressed with his Guru/Gann/Esoteric knowledge, but he DOESN'T want
you to that Ricky CAN'T trade at +90% accuracy!!!!


author: UMT

subject: Re: Money Management and Risk Control

text:
CycleSurferScamArtist.con writes:

"That is the truth you attempt to burry.  Your not interested in
truth. i've been around long enough to know 90% of people don't follow
the
advice they get no matter how good it is.  So trading records are
inconsequential, unless soliciting for managed accounts."

Let's get the 'truth' out in the open here:  Nobody cares if " 90% of
people don't follow the advice"  That is not the point.  The point is,
you (and your cousin Ratford) claim to be highly profitable traders.
I and hundreds of others say you are full of shit.  All you have to do
is to have a CPA certify your trading statements and prove us all
wrong.  I know you would love to do that, so why don't you????

The 'truth' you attempt to bury (not 'burry') is that you two both
know that your trading methods are extremely hit and miss.  "90%
Accuracy" is a joke.   How can you two claim to be Christians and run
around spouting scripture when you mislead people about your
'service?'  How do you justify screwing people?  You both act like
'well, so and so is doing it and getting away with it so I might as
well too, and that makes it ok'  which just happens to be extremely
warped thinking.  (Is that due to the particle beam the CIA used on
you?)

Both of you:  Your names are MUDD.  Anyone who has been around for
more than a year knows it.  Give it up.  You have failed at this
venture.. Your days of screwing newbies on MIF is over!

UMT


author: MY COMPUTER STUFF

subject: .FS: 3Com 3C509B cards with BNC and AUI ports

text:
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auction. Just follow the links below to bid. Thanks

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subject: De Facto Spouse- Extra evidence needed!

text:
Hi!

My Australian partner and I posted off our De Facto Spouse application
on 7th November and have now been given 28 days by the woman processing
our application to provide extra evidence with regards to the 12 month
relationship requirement.

I was just wondering if this was a common occurence as it's sent me into
a bit of a panic?

Shane and I met when i was on a WHV in OZ and were friends for 6 months
before we became a couple. We were then together 3 months as a couple
(not defacto...we lived seperately) before my WHV expired. I then flew
back to the UK for 2 months to save money to rejoin Shane. So for my
application our Defacto Spouse relationship commenced in September last
year when I flew back to Oz and we moved in together (my parnter had
taken a lease on a place for us which i then added my name to).

However, as I could legally only come back for 3 months on a holiday
visa in Dec last year i had to return to the UK. We were apart for 3
months (torture!) but only because of money (I had gone back to Oz
unable to work) before Shane then flew over here last march on a UK
work visa.

I'm concerned because whilst my case worker has said she is in no doubt
that our application is genuine she still needs more evidence. Despite
the fact that we had know eachother a year and been a couple for 6
months before moving in together, she doesn't think it looks that good
the way we were cohabiting for 3 months before being seperated.

I'm so frustrated! If i had stayed in Australia past the 3 months that
would have been illegal, and in an ideal world money would not be an
issue so Shane would have been able to join me right away.

My application was already full of evidence: communications whilst
apart, joint travel/socialising, Bills in Shane's name that i've paid,
joint bank account in Oz set up last Oct, letters to same address, bank
statements showing that Shane's pay goes into my account, car
registration transfering my dad's car to Shane etc...

We don't have a mortgage but rent my childhood home from my father who
lives in spain, which I have a statuatory declaration for.

If anyone has any suggestions of anything i haven't thought of i would
be so very grateful!

ThankYou!


subject: Re: De Facto Spouse- Extra evidence needed!

text:
I would suggest that you get more statutory declarations from family and
friends, your and his parents are always good! also invitations you may
have received as a couple, xmas cards, letters etc. maybe copies of
emails you have sent to each other and more photo's, pretty much the
same sort of stuff you have sent already but more of it!
hope it helps
regards
vb2


author: bipsich

text:
Collect every crap you can. I overhelm them with papers they were
very surprised


text:
Thank you both for your help!

Is it vital to include information on joint savings? Our Joint bank
account in Oz only has a couple of hundred dollars in as we're over here
in the UK and planning to transfer our money here to that account when
we move back. (have already supplied a bank statement for this)

Also our savings here are not huge (only about Â£2000 at the moment) and
in an account under my name only.

Thank you again! Really helps to get advice from other people!


author: saraliz

text:
It's not "vital" to include information about joint savings, but
remember they do want evidence of the financial aspects of your
relationship.

Have you read booklet 1 yet?
(http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/booklets/1127.pdf).  There is a good
guide in there as to what evidence they are looking for.  Broadly, you
need to provide evidence of:

1. The financial aspects of your relationship;
2. The nature of the household;
3. The social context of the relationship; and
4. The nature of your commitment to each other.

Booklet 1 goes into more details on each of these.

Try use the above as a guide and make sure you have evidence covering
each category.  Try to dig up as many old documents as you can!


author: [redacted]

subject: Compact fluorescents slow to reach full intensity

text:
In all the praise of compact
fluorescent bulbs I've see in
the press, nobody mentions that they
take at least a minute to reach
full intensity after they are turned
on...Or have I bought the wrong type
of bulb?


subject: Re: Compact fluorescents slow to reach full intensity

text:
On Mar 9, 1:48 am, "Bucky" <[email]> wrote:

 For me, it depends on the venue. If it's a carnival or a movie
theatre sign, I don't
have a problem, but if they start sticking them everywhere
(convienence stores,
wedding chapels, etc) then yes, that does go well beyond good taste
and looks
horrable. Then too, those looking to get married in vegas by Elvis
don't seem to
have much class to begin with. ;-)


text:
On Mar 8, 3:28 pm, "Rod Speed" <[email]> wrote:

 I would love to have R/G/B clusters that can be individualy dimmed
via sliders.
Not hard/expensive to do at all, and you could have just about any
kind of lighting
you want.

 Most railroad gates seem to be switching over to LEDs and electronic
(synthesized) bells.


author: zeez

text:
On Mar 15, 11:31 am, "Charles Buchholtz" <[email]>
wrote:

 Very nice, thanks! Do they sell for 120v/60hz current?


author: WDS

text:
On Mar 12, 5:04 pm, KLS <[email]> wrote:

This is probably a technical impossibility given how flourescent bulbs
work.  I am sure if you comapred it to a new bulb of similar output
there would be a noticable difference.  I replaced one of two ~3 YO
bulbs in a fixture the other day and the new one is quite a bit
brighter.  Oh, they came from the same pack.


text:
On Mar 10, 2:26 am, "WDS" <[email]> wrote:

No, it's not a bulb size issue.   The bulbs are the same size.   So
are the sockets.  If you look at them side by side, they look almost
identical.   It's the fact that this CFL gets wider closer to the base
than a similar regular floodlight, (probably for the electronics),
thereby hitting the 2 small clips which hold the fixture together.

Jeff's idea of a bulb extender won't work either.   The flood light
bulbs come to within about 3/4 of an inch of the bottom of the
recessed fixture without one.   With an extender they will stick out.

It's kind of a bummer too, as I have 20 or so recessed fixtures and
they are all the same, so I don't know where I'm going to use these
CFLs.   I'll take a look at other ones and see if I can find a brand
that has a thinner design near the base.


author: gamer

subject: Re: Compact fluorescents

text:
[email] wrote:

In response to this thread, I bought several of the fluorescent (soft
light)  flood lights yesterday  for the kitchen.

In addition to the claimed longer life & 1/4 wattage,  I prefer its
somewhat less yellow light.

Glad I read this thread.


text:
And here's another way to get bit in the ass with CFL.  I just bought
a 3 pack of Feit CFL 120W floodlights at Costco.  Was going to try
them in some of my recessed indoor ceiling fixtures.   Well, guess
what?   They don't fit.   Even though a regular flood light, either
interior or exterior will go in, these won't.   The problem is that
the base gets too wide too close to the metal screw in base.   These
fixtures use metal clips on each side of the socket assembly to hold
it to the rest of the fixture.   The CFL bulb hits these clips, so the
bulb won't screw in.


text:
On Mar 9, 5:21 pm, [email] wrote:

Isn't that what the code on the packages is for?  I know I've gotten
the wrong size floods before with incadescents, too.


author: Bucky

text:
On Mar 8, 2:59 pm, "zeez" <[email]> wrote:

that would be great, I absolutely loathe vegas-style lights, they're
so tacky


text:
Say, has anyone seen the dimmable CFLs anywhere?  I've looked at all
the big and small stores around where I live and none carry any.


author: Anthony Matonak

text:
[email] wrote:

You bought the wrong type. Some of them
will light at nearly full intensity as
soon as you turn them on. Some of them
take minutes to warm up. They will all
take a little longer when it's very cold.

There are no standards so the only way
to tell is to buy one and try it. The
larger bulbs will be more likely to
light slowly. They don't all put out the
same color light either. I prefer the
'cool white' myself but others feel the
light is too blue and prefer something
more orange.

Anthony


author: rick++

text:
Thats pretty normal, but I hear some brands are getting
better.  Sometimes these bulb are less than $2 apiece
at home depot.  Havent had to replace one yet.


text:
In misc.consumers.house [email] wrote:

For me, I find that an extra benefit first thing in
the morning to not have *bright* light all at once
in the kitchen is kind of nice.  There's plenty of
light to see, but it's not annoyingly bright and you
get some time for your eyes to adjust.

Actually, I'm sort of annoyed that my kitchen fixture
seems to burn out CFLs.  I need to find some that are
more tolerant of being mounted "upside down."

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.


author: Charles Buchholtz

text:
In misc.consumers.house [email] wrote:
: In all the praise of compact
: fluorescent bulbs I've see in
: the press, nobody mentions that they
: take at least a minute to reach
: full intensity after they are turned
: on...Or have I bought the wrong type
: of bulb?

I find that the ones that say "quick-start", "instannt-on", etc on the
package have no noticible delay.  I use the cheap/slow ones for my
dusk/dawn porch lights, and the fast ones for lights where I flip a
light switch.

I had a light fixture that took 5 60W light bulbs.  As the
incandescents light bulbs burned out, I replaced them one at a time
with "quick-start" "warm" "60W equivalent" CFLs.  I had a mix of
incandescents and CFLs in the same fixture, and I couldn't see any
difference besides the shape of the bulb.  Color, intensity, and start
up were identical as far as I could tell.

--- Chip


text:
On Mar 7, 9:37 am, "Charles Buchholtz" <[email]>
wrote:

I haven't seen one yet that didn't have a significant difference in
output for many seconds after being turned on, including the ones that
say they are quick start.   In my experience, the quick start ones are
better, but there is still a significant delay of maybe 30 secs or
more in reaching full output.  And it's worse in cold applications.
It's also possible that people thinking they reach full output right
away just aren't paying close attention.   If you turn one on, take a
look at it initially and then again at 2 mins.

I would like to see a spec on the package that says how long it takes
to reach 75% brightness and how long till 100%.   Then we could figure
out which is best without having to buy a bunch of crap ones.  That
would help get them adopted and save energy.


author: Vandy Terre

text:
On 7 Mar 2007 03:14:09 -0800, [email] wrote:

Mine work the same way.  I just turn on the lights and find something to do that
requires less light while they come to strength.  I believe this is just a trait
of fluorescent bulbs or tubes.  Long ago, I was taught to turn off incandescent
bulbs when leaving the room and on when entering in order to save money.  And
that fluorescent bulbs/ tubes were less expensive to use if left on for the day.


text:
On Mar 7, 3:14 am, [email] wrote:

it's not mentioned because it's common knowledge and not that big of a
deal.


text:
On Mar 8, 7:07 am, krw <[email]> wrote:

 This raises an intersting questions: What if California and Australia
succeed with their ban on incadecents?
What would happen to things such as flashing marquees on signs and
carnival rides, or any application that
requires lights to be able to flash on and off quickly? LEDs? Do they
have LED clusters that can screw into
a normal socket and deliver the kind of light needed?


author: Tomes

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

All that I have seen have a delay of sorts, but I have found that
different brands have differing delay rates.  I have found that the
nvision ones sold at HD had a relatively bright initial intensity, where
the GE ones that I bought at Walmart take much longer (but are cheaper).
Where I want more initial light (kitchen) I use the nvision ones, where is
matters less ( living room) I use the GE ones.

It is something that I have trained myself to tolerate as a trade off to
savings.
Tomes