author: Dick Eastman

subject: Re: Your petty bourgeois guidebook for crushing globalism

text:
Howard Switzer identifies serious dangers in his answer to
Antonio Novelli.  I wish to elaborate on these dangers, and
point out the real source of goal-eroding contamination
that invades all anti-Establishment parties, contamination that
is injected into a party exactly to serve the Establishment's
purposes.
----

There are agents who surreptitiously  gain control of mass movements
originally formed to restore government-in-the-public-interest (populist
movements) and to regulate use of the biosphere for the maximum
habitat-benefit of all (environmentalism)

 These infiltrators divert/subvert these movments to serve their hidden
masters'  wealth-and-power-getting ends rather than to serve the goals the
general membership thinks they are serving and joined the movement in order
to serve.  These infiltrators are professionals, selected and groomed to be
more impressive and inspiring than the sincere "organically grown" activists
motivated by the true humanitarian goals of the cause.

These infiltrators backed and supplied from the limitless resources of their
masters ,with  every means for making sure that sincere true-to-cause
leaders are  instantly marginalized if they show any sign of heeding
anti-establishment analysis such as this message contains --  like this plea
that Greens (and members of any other anti-Establishment party) develop
objective criteria (a system) for evaluating their candidates and
continually testing the sincerity and action-fidelity of their leaders.
(Right now you leave it to the leaders to test and expose the leaders -- you
lack the parlimentary principle of "challenges from the floor.")

But first  recognize this serious related problem:  It is nearly  impossible
anyway to maintain scientific integrity and purity of purpose when also
adopting the role of political party seeking offices that have
responsibility for matters (banking structure, tax structure, foreign
relations, law, crime, etc.) with no readily tracable connection to the core
"identity issues" of the cause.

And the "identity issues" can drift and they can be hijecked.

A "Green" is more than an environmentalist  --  he is a member of a party
committed to some areas for which there are deep convictions and firm
resolve (environmental issues) but also is wide open for anything in all
other areas of politics;  AND to the extent that the bought-off agents
working as party leaders at the top for the moneyed interests can by hook or
crook constrain the whole party into just one or two issues as "holding
pens" (i.e. to preoccupy you totally  with global warming, ozone depletion,
acid rain, anti-nuke AND NOTHING ELSE-- i.e., limits you to just the  issues
the establisment chooses to push with their media, foundation, political NGO
and university network monopoly --  to that extent do the leaders have the
run of the store in all those other areas and they capture the use the Green
party workers as dupes supporting things they don't know about -- claiming
their support for things they don't really support and getting them to raise
money etc. to further what they do not know about.

I am going to present three quotes that, with some
serious thinking, will convince you that the Green Party and the
institutional Green movment  is led (captured) by infiltrated
enemies of the environment who are exploiting
environmentalism through distortion and disinformation
for their own master's agenda for political domination and the
monopolization of resource and capital wealth.

My only regret -- and the only reason why your mind might refuse to accept
what you will read here -- is that I have no alternative, no solution, to
this enormity  --  aside from old ways that most of you discarded long ago
and have scorned ever since.(The Whole Earth Catalog calls
"Paleoconservative" men like Pat Buchanan who understand and expose the
power and clandestine manipulations of the moneyed interests.)

Here are the three quotations (discussion follows):

Henry Kissinger in an address to the super secret Bilderberg Organization
meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992 said the following as transcribed
from a tape recording made by one of the Swiss delegates:

"Today American's would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to
restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if
they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or
promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples
of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil.
The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee
of their well being granted to them by their world government."

Zbignew Brzenzski chaired the Trilateral Commission which generated its
"Report on the Governability of Democracies" in its 1975 study emphasis,
"The Crisis of Democracy."  Here is the key passage from that report:

   "We have come to recognize that there are potentially desirable limits to
economic growth.  There are also potentially desirable limits to the
indefinite extension of political democracy . . .  A government which lacks
authority ... will have little ability, short of cataclysmic crisis, to
impose on its people the sacrifices which may be necessary."

And here is Al Gore, from his book, Earth in the Balance; Ecology and the
Human Spirit (New York:  Plume Publishing, 1993) from the Chapter "A Global
Marshall Plan:"

"Modern industrial civilization as presently organized, is colliding
violently with our planet's ecological system.  The ferocity of its assault
on the earth is breathtaking, and the horrific consequences are occurring so
quickly as to defy our capacity to recognize them, comprehend their global
implications, and organize appropriate and timely response.  ... I have come
to believe that we must take bold and uniquivocal action: we must make the
rescue of the enviroment the central organizing principle for civilization.
Whether we realize it or not, we are now engaged in an epic battle to right
the balance of our earth, and the tide of this battle will turn only when
the majority of people in the world become sufficiently arroused by a shared
sense of urgent danger to join an all-out effort. ...Although very difficult
changes in established patterns of thought and action will be required, the
task of restoring the natural balance of the earth's ecological system is
both within our capacity and desirable for other reasons. ....

 "What does it mean to make the effort to save the global environment the
central organizing principle of our civilization?  For one think, it means
securing widespread agreement that it should be the organizing principle ...
Historically such a consensus has usually been secured only when the
emergence of a life-or-death threat to the existence of society itself;
this time however the crisis could well be irreversible by the time its
consequences become sufficienty clear to congeal public opinion -- if not
panic.

   "Adopting a central organizing principle --one agreed to voluntarily --
means embarking on an all-out effort to use every policy and program, every
law and institution, every tereaty and alliance, every tactic and strategy,
every plan and course of action  -- to use, in short, every means to halt
the destruction of the environment and to preserve and nurture our ecologic
system.  Minor shifts in policy, marginal adjustments in ongoing programs,
moderate improvements in laws and regulations, rehetoric  offered in lieu of
genuine change -- these are all forms of appeasement, designed to satisfy
the public's desire to belive that sacrifice, struggle, and a wrenching
transformation of society will not be necessary."
-------------

Discussion:

I fully support Howard Switzer's position against
Tony Novelli's proposal that the Green Party align
with the Trotskyite Labor Party.  Trotskyites capture
legitimate movements merely to harness their potential
energy to power their own revolutionary agenda for
power, power, power  --  not for humanity or the environment,
or intelligent progress of the common good. Trotskyites serve
finance capitalism as the Jesuits serve the Catholic Church -- only
they cover their power-seeking motives in pure radical-left-dogma
deceit.)  They want Green
numbers under their control -- to herd panicked animals, to
promote conflict merely to obtain political leverage in group-vs.-group
dynamics, to use Green activists merely as a wedge
to bring down (with  revolutionary dialectic) all opposition, i.e.,
pitting one group against another with the purpose of bringing
down both.

 I support Howard Switzer's  intention, ability, activism,
political acumen, sincerity, and broad fund of knowledge of
both the compex "is" and the humanitarian-environmental "should."
He is a sincere environmentalist, the kind the hirelings at the top
continually manage to marginalize.

I particularly note these thoughts:

What Switzer is responding to is that the labor movment has
been captured at the top in the same way the Green movement
has been.  Switzer sees that this leadership has driven labor power
power into the ground -- the leadership will not even back the
overwhelming desire of the rank and file to scrap, e.g.,  NAFTA
(which is as much a disaster for the common man's standard of
living as it is for environmental quality.)

But Howard Switzers logic should be taken further.

What Switzer rightly says would happen with a Labor Party alliance, I say
is happening anyway without intrusion of an alien organizations incompatible
agenda.. What Howard warns of in the form of the highjacking of
purpose when there is open arms infiltration by an alien-ideology
political party  also happens as a much more hard-to-detect political
"virus" when workers and leaders within the body of the Green Party and the
green movement become captives of establishmentarian (globalist, corporate,
finance capitalist)
and affiliated Trotskyite-Zhouist  (finance-capital in bed with China
Princelings for economic and environmental exploitation) interests.

Rather than discuss Tony Novelli, whom I do not know -- although the place
he is obviously coming from I know very well --  let me share my
correspondence with Alan Lewis of Michigan -- the arch green's green of my
experience, on the general subject of the establishment's capability to
hijack  party vehicles that oppose them, use them as a road weapon and then
crash them into a wall.
---------

"How blindly trusting should we be of the label "Green?", below,

Dialog between Mr. P (populist Dick) and Mr. A (green Alan)-- edited
by Dick to highlight Dick's ideas (NOT a fair representation of Alan Lewis's
deep and sound understanding of many many issues):
--------------------------

Mr. P and Mr. G are discussing Cold Fusion and Zero-Point Energy,
but they go off on this tangent:

Mr. P:
I was unfair in my characterization, but I sincerely do not
see where your confidence in the unworkability of a nuclear
and other available high-energy sources  -- every
single one of these alternatives-- comes from.

I have said somewhere that the GP's opposition to
all three:  hydroelectric, nuclear, natural gas and new
high-tech technologies  is too improbable, to absolute,
to uncompromising as a scientific conclusion or even as
an intelligent-approach-to-the-risk conclusion -- in fact
this straight-down-the-line opposition only makes sense
if you posit that  the real  reasons have been contrived in order to
serve a monopoly-concentration-increasing  "zero-growth" agenda
that comes from the self-aggrandizing big-money interests that
 bankroll them and use them as lobbying instruments
deceptively packaged for  mass appeal and activist recruitment.
(Not much different from the way Rush Limbaugh packages
and delivers another class of people to his Wall Street lords.)

You can't possibly believe that research and industry
are half trying to solve the energy problem.  GP leadership,
in its effect -- not the sincere green's  fundamental goals
and science -- alternative energy sources out of competition
with the oil monopolies,  ultimately and clandestinely for the
sake of the big-oil families.  At least this is what my study of
the political arena has led me to conclude.

Being all but convinced of this, I then find you
stating  positions that I have been critical of
for so many years, and doing so as if the arguments
I have urged are not worth a nod.

Nothing personal, but I do disagree about nuclear
energy  being bad and I want to liberate  the cheap
and clean alternative technologies the oil men
have under lock and key while they gouge
full economic rents from their oil  and gas
monopoly/cartel/oligopoly.

Mr. G

Actually, I DO have some misgivings about
workability, or the extent to which these technologies might
substitute for what we're doing now. You, too, will have at
least some misgivings if you undertake a study of the issue
using these URLs (listed below). I don't think that we're
headed for a total meltdown, the way some of the doomers in
those parts do, but it looks like it could be a VERY bumpy
road. We shall see.

Here is Alan's compilation (in fairness to him --I have not read
all this.  --DE)     (Scroll past to continue dialog.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/the_money_programme/newsid_1014000/1
014236.stm
http://www.business.scotsman.com/cfm/home/headlines_specific.cfm?headlineid=
4901&subset=archive
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/essay_fleming/index.html

Mr. P:
You say you have doubts about whether new technologies could substitute
for what we are doing now.  This, to me, is extraordinary pessimism.
Consider the negatives of mankind's use of fire. Now consider the variety of
technologies that have developed using some form of combustion (kitchen
stoves, steam turbines, infinite variety) .  There is no one road. Where do
get your negative anticipatory certitude?
Your sources take the actions and abilities of a newborn infant, then make
linear-regression projections  of what the adult can do -- giant loads of
massively loaded daipers to contend with, bigger and more powerful random
flailing of arms, louder adult-voiced crying, etc. Yet mankind's inventions
like the individual human organism itself does not develop linearly.

ANd can you question that Greens oppose hydroelectric power as well as
nuclear and new high-tech alternatives?  You are from Michigan.
There is not much hydroelectric power in Michigan.  In the state of
Washington big money flows to organizations that powerfully push to breach
the hydroelectric damns to "save the salmon" etc.  -- even damns that have
been around since the 1930's.

Do you know of Washington State's late former scientist Democrat Governor
who once headed the atomic energy commission?  She gave us plentiful cheap
atomic power.  She was a real Democrat, she was laroucheian without
ties to questionable Mr. LaRouche himself, simply because she was
intelligent and rational and independent minded and of good-will.  Dixy Lee
Ray's book, Trashing the Planet; How Science can Help Us Deal with Acid
Rain, Depletion of the Ozone, and Nuclear Waste (Among Other Things)  that
answered Al Gore's book on, Earth in the Balance, on every demagogic
scare-tactic deceitful point. Later she went to the Rio conference --ever
wondered how that mighty conference just suddenly appeared on the scene with
no grass roots effort at all!! --who do you think has the power to make that
happen? -- and there she
successfully debunked the junk science and downright whole-cloth
disinformation behind the Rio treaty.  She saw through the steamroller event
as a ruling-class sponsored NGO-pushed effort to carry out an anti-economic
negative-growth constraint upon for middle-class enterprise that competes
with global corporation monopolies and finance capitalism, the true power
behind the
anti-economic-development agenda
-- note I said anti-economic "development" rather than
anti-economic "growth" ; remember the linear-regression projection
prediction of what babies will become!  -- growth is a coarse thing, but
development, in man and in man's instrumentalities, involves adaptation,
intelligence, precaution, intelligent avoidance as well as intelligent
attainment etc.  The Green leadership, as professional political critics of
technology, are 1) biased anti-technology, 2) biased by funding from people
who with a self-aggrandizement agenda to prevent new technologies from
developing  -- what happens to their oil monopoly if cheap hydrogen can
replace petrolium in transportation and industry, or if fusion can be
brought cheaply and safely on line  (neither you or I know the true state of
the development of that technology --  but I do know that the advances that
were well known in the early 1970's are totally unheard of, blacked out, in
universities and the media today.

I'll bet you have never heard the argument of pro-technologists that if
technologies are allowed to develop, are allowed to pay off without the
prohibitive-cost-inflicting regulation and impact-studies etc etc etc, then
new and better technologies would constantly be replacing yesterday's
technology and mankind would have l) not so many eggs in one technology
basket, 2) no eggs in any one basket for very long  --  i.e., maximum
dynamic adaptation.

Think of the advantages and the prospects for long term human survival and
long-term human habitat (i.e. earth biosphere) improvment for sustained
human welfare and happiness.

(Remember:  I am speaking of the Green Party that the hireling
establishment-infiltrated leadership pushes -- not the sincere and
intelligent concern for the biosphere as humanity's continuing
habitat that you who are reading this shares with me.)

(Yes, the distinction pro-technologist vs. pro-environmentalist is valid,
environmentalist's are lobbyists and they are agitated , hidden-agenda
driven activists and voters -- AL Gore has been an agent cultivated to steer
this agitated mass and deliver it for the establishment (mostly big oil),
just as Rush Limbaugh has been cultivated and puffed to steer his mass for
the same interests -- delivering those otherwise populist votes to Bob DOle
and the Bushes rather than to Buchanan (Ike rather than Taft, Rockefeller
rather than Goldwater or (early, ideological) Reagan-- for big-shot
interests that are above the only-apparent differences between Bob Dole and
George Bush (either one) on one hand and Clinton and Gore on the other.
(Notice how Bush has, after a decent interval, fallen in on dealing with
North Korea, not providing the Aegis destroyers (what he did supply was
negligible junk) -- every day we see the same globalist status quo in
place -- I am watching what he offers in compromise with the  Kyoto
agreements.) Environmentalism is controlled by the establishment through the
foundations, through the grant system, through the media which selects the
science stories it picks up, through the funding of academic chairs with
strings attached, and through the bullying tactics of agitator driven
(not-science driven) -- let's say agitated-junk-science driven kid's, who
like the idealistic Red Guards, tear down whatever their "leaders" point at.
(I hope they will not resent this characterization and refuse to listen to
this logic.)

Mr. G:

First, regarding hydroelectric?! I was not aware of opposition
to hydorelectric power, though I can imagine resistance in
certain select instances (i.e. when it would mean destruction
of an important habitat, etc.)  Is that what you mean?

Mr. P:
Just name a habitat, take out the violins, carefully select the
"study" and you are in business as a middle-class business
destroyer, unbeknownst-to-you-on-behalf-of-corporations-
China-Trotsky-subversion etc.  The spotted owl is a plentiful
bird in the Pacific Northwest -- but studies were "selected".

That, by the way, is how come it is so important the Establishment
to control the scientific-academic fields:  to make sure that somone will
do the research that will after-the-fact support the pre-chosen direction
(i.e. zero-growth, zero-economic development (actually, lately,
negative growth and development) for the middle class) -- as
one female high-up Democrat operative/official was over heard
"we selected the research we wanted" which she immediately corrected
when she discovered that she had slipped and told the truth during her
Senate testimony -- I forget who it was, but I remember this further
 confirmation of what I already knew. (I'm sorry but the females are most
gullible
and therefore most useful--Gore is tall, he says the right words, he does
the Maccarana, "I feel secure, he'll take care of me, unlike those selfish
rigid males who hate the furry little animals etc.etc."  That's why women
almost never join the political discussions in the newsgroups -- all they
have are their clichï¿½s and they refuse to put them in jeopardy by testing
them -- a reluctance that no doubt keeps them on the Establishment's
hireling payrolls.)

Also "Green" is not the same as a biologist, ecologist, geo-scientist, or
naturalist.  "Environmentalism" too is not stictly science; it is a
political movement.
And the Greens are a party -- with all of the same sociological
dynamics operating that causes every political interest group to eventually
become deflected by the moneyed interests, and every party to be used by the
those interests (by buying the guys at the top) to serve, clandestinely, a
hidden agenda for power and wealth for the few.

Look how anti-nuclear has played into the hands of the oil companies!  Don't
look at the poverty of the suckers the agitators have rounded up -- and note
that it is the most dedicated idealist who ends up with the least capital to
work with -- in fact, the message is clear:  go along with the junk science
or you will be out of academics and driving a taxi (or working at
Blockbuster).

Mr. G:

How can you possibly even dream that "Big money bankrolls
environmentalism?  Please. If you are talking about the
Green Party, they have NO money, "big" or otherwise,
behind them. Everything they do is cash-starved and
shoestring. Where on earth do you get the idea that the greens
have  big bucks?

Mr. P:

The greens have just the money they need --and no more-- to fulfill their
lobbying function for obtaining the precision self-aggrandizing legislation
the establishment wants.   (When I say establishment I include both
the Trotskyites seeking the destruction of petty bourgeois wealth and
power from envy, and finance capitalism seeking to cut off at the knees all
middle-class competition from greed; that is, for their monopoly-power
rent-seeking highly-inefficient Dilbert-worlded transnational corporations
(all the
drawbacks of a Soviet command economy combined with all the
ruthlessness of of the East India Tea Company, The City and the
Conquestodores.

Mr. G:
To be sure, some environmental organizations
have significant operating budgets, probably running into
hundreds of millions per year, in sum. But certainly the
*oil monopolies*, for God's sake, not the Greens, are the
ones with the motive to keep alternative energy sources out
of the running.

Mr. P:
And what makes you think that these masters of manipulation
are going to keep to the little compartment you have put them
in?  What makes you think they are not going to buy their oppostion;
not going to hire the slickest operatives they know (and have been
using all along to get where they are) and have those operatives
go after the leaders of the opposing "compartment" (i.e., the Green
organizations), buy off the leaders, isolate and eliminate the
true-believers who can't be bought (Blockbuster is waiting!) -- yet always
keep up the valuable capital that is the favorable public image and the
"good-will" of this "idealistic" corporation they have just silently taken
over -- in order to use that good will to promote thier own agenda -- while
the cause, becomes the hypocrisy!!!

Mr. G:

Welllll.... I  have a muchly different take on the issue.

Mr. P:

Fair enough.  And without you and the few at worldcity, none of the
thoughts I call my own would ever have been occasioned -- I would have long
ago succumbed to the intellectual death that should have followed from the
dirty dealings the establishment has employed to rid this idealist from the
organizations they have
sequestered to promote their agenda.

Mr. G:
Is it in the nature of late capitalistic decadence for
everyone to feel impotent?

Mr. P:
Not everyone.  Unusual elevation of one must come at the
social cost of the degradation of others.  Living off interest
requires others carrying the debt.  The command requires
subservience.  Not all men choose to be house servants when
they can own their own business in middle-class world --  you
cannot really feel like a powerful lord unless abject poverty
compells the masses to remove their hats in the slim hope of
finding your favor etc.

Mr. G.

Well, at least when you talk about new technologies
kept under lock and key you balme the gouging
"oil men" and not the Greens ... if there is indeed anything
under "lock and key", which there MIGHT be.

Mr. P:
It is too facile to say that I am a populist and you are a green and
never the twain shall meet.  I am a green too, Alan -- can't you see the
anti-clandestine weather-modification activism as indicative of that -- or
am I just pegged an outlyer conspiracy theorist who invents his own? Again,
"a compartment for everybody" with no overlap?
The foundations and the grants and the politicalized university departments
elevate the politicals -- the AL Gore supporters -- while former Gov. Dixy
Lee Ray died unexpectedly of "natural causes" merely days after returning
from Rio.

TEST MY CONTENTION:  Look at the Greens with money to spare -- were they for
Gore or for Nader;  did they argue about "the wasted vote" etc, or did they
stand on sound science and the principle of total honesty? -- and of course
true science and total honesty are inseperable.
Are they no the ones who are totally unsceptical and uncritical about the
global warming predictions?  and most certain about the anti-industrialist
solutions? and most adament about rolling back the economy rather than
upgrading the technology? (i.e. sceptical of developing and improving the
production system to be cleaner, more efficient, doing more with less etc.)

Mr. G:

You want me to test your contention that Green's have money to spare.
I don't know that any of them have "money to spare", at least
not from what I've seen. There are probably a few with family
money, no personal financial issues. As a group they are poor.
Most Greens went for Nader, but (predictably) a goodly portion
held to the "wasted vote" idea and went Gore. I was surprised
and gratified at how many of them repudiated -- really
repudiated, vigorously! -- the Democratic Party and Gore,
entirely. I still have a bunch of clippings from that period,
including some of the best and most inspiring thoughts along
those lines. (I also have many clippings illustrating the
utterly shameless, in my view, attack on the Greens from
 Dem-sympathizers and sell-outs.)  I never came so close to
joining the Green Party yet, and I may yet do so.

I was tempted at one point to disregard the Greens as "left
Democrats", using the fact that many of them actually DID vote
Democratic as ammo. But that is not a fair assessment of a mass
movement. Any mass movement is going to have a struggle on its
hands, with powerful forces moving both in the "realo" AND the
"fundo" direction. Likewise, on the right, I would expect many in
an insurgent Buchanan (or whatever) movement to "defect" at the
last moment ("wasted vote") to the Republicans; no point
excoriating them for that. It is to be expected.

Now, returning to your linear-regression prediction of giant babies
as an analogy for environmental forecasting.  That is straw-man if there
ever was one.  Indeed, it is the element -- TIME -- that is the most
significant. Anything CAN happen... over TIME. Not anything can happen at
any given moment (or should I say the likelihood becomes smaller and smaller
as the bigness and urgency of that thing increases).

Mr. P:
You have suggested that my confidence in man's ability to adapt to
ever-present
ever-changing environmental challenges when the restraining hand of global
governance --whether concealed in its environmentalist/ Mauthusian glove or
not , amounts to mystical optimism.  But, Mr. G, there is also mystical a
paralyzing mystical pessimism.

 But the fruitless taxonomic exercise of attributing  optimism, pessimism,
mysticism, or hard-headed empiricism  aside, I think there are important
discriminations you are not making.

You say you have  used the human-potential-for-creativity argument for
years    (i.e., this idea that social welfare is maximized when governance
allows market-coordinated entrepreneurs to seek profit from better
cost-effective products) -- of course first making the needed adjustments to
ensure that better-mousetrap-sensitive
fundamentals and not rapacious leveraged  super-money speculation
and monopolist rent-seeking    guides capital investment.  If the original
American political system genius governs the market environment in which
society's resources are selectied, husbanded and organized there will obtain
salutary invisible-hand entrepreneurship and not finance-capitalist
legalized-mega-theft predation)  like I say you are not opposed to proper
market-driven solutions as long as the legal-regulatory underpinnings of
market behaviro are such as to  prevent harmful rent-seeking
efforts to "beat the system."  And, of course, neither of us would exclude,
the freedom of members of society to use government to provide  public goods
that private entrepreneurship, when given every opportunity, is failing to
provide.
(With needed reforms to correct for capture by special interests for
self-aggrandizing efforts that actually lead to a net loss of total
private-and-public social welfare (considering the distribution of costs and
benefits in the whole
picture.)  (Nothing controversial between us here, I hope.)

But yet, you suggest that because of shortness of TIME  this general
strategy is
inadequate, that mankind  must be shut down and slowed down and moved to a
cut-back-so-as-to-be-sustainable (static, status quo) means of production,
to a sustainable organization of economic affairs, to sustainable economy,
to a sustainable environment -- in short to a steady-state economic-ecologic
equilibrium  (so we won't have to worry anymore.)

May I suggest to you, that, on the contrary, your time argument actually
reinforces the (optimist's) argument for opening the floogates to nuclear
power creativity and other new energy research.  The urgency of our problems
is all the more reason to   remove the purly punitive
discouragement-intended
regulation, adn all the more reason for encouraging (LaRouchely) investment
to achieve greater "flux density" and BuckyFullerly "more with less."

Why?

Because all research-fed progress requires LEAD TIME. (That one sentence
should generate the flash of insight that introduction of temporal
considerations actually supports -- even clinches -- the
let's-not-impose-limits-to-development argument.)

You say:

What kind of urgency requires that you not think of new solutions.
What kind of urgency requires that you agree in advance to implement
anything you may think of in the future.  Because thinking burns
calories and calories make the earth too hot. ANd implimenting what you
think of takes a great deal more calories and is therefore even worse. And
it is too close to being too hot right now to afford any leeway on this or
even to debate it. --- No, this is not a "straw man" representation of your
position, rather it is a simplified model of  one shcool of "PC" Greed
thinking  needed to organize the analysis that follows.  :-|

Now, at any time "t", man must be looking ahead not only to meet
the short-term exigency --and, of course, rapacious finance-capitalism is
only
concerned with short-term profit --  although the discounted present-value
of long-term investment projects is considered-- but only in the most coarse
and crude way, crude ideas of efficiency as, for example, extremely myopic
long-range view that  slave wages are cheaper than union scale and that
therefore long-run shifts of all our industrial capital to China is a good
idea etc.   --   how stupid!   and how like the intrinsic incompetence  of
the central planning of old soviet-style command that financie capitalism
and transnational corporation CEO's in so many critical ways resemble.

Well, as I was saying, at any time, "t", mankind, through its creative and
its entrepreneural and its statesman minds,   must be looking ahead not only
to
meet the short-term , but also to meet the medium-term  and the longer-term
requirements/opportunities.

We both understand that this is not the forte of finance capitalism.

 In fact, when agents of the  intelligent,
long-term-standard-of-living-committed middle-classes (i.e., the petty
bourgeois, the populist-and-sincere-green valued masses) direct the
economic system , they always take the future into account (through their
plans and aspirations and through the economic valuation of future events at
their discounted present value).

No one looks to the future like the middle class, they are the ones who own
a piece of the land, and who never consider moving to another country as an
option when things go bad etc.  You will notice that in every power play of
the elites to get the middle classes to surrender more economic power to
them, the resort is always to some emergency that requires extraordinary
(ursurping and confiscatory) measures.

So, the globalists (financial sector) are not really looking to maximize the
standard of living over time of the general population (of the household
sector ),
only the household sector itself  does that well.

(Also, run-of-the-mill politicians (in contrast to the humanitarian
statesman) is also generally too short-sighted, thinking only to the next
election, or to the string of elections expected in  their anticipated
careers).

At any rate, the inevitable constraints of Required Lead Time should compell
us
to free up the research, to begin innovation, encourage start-up, to shorten
the development process and invest heavily in energy innovation

-- and not simply to throttle the very system from which innovation comes
(cutting back back on energy consumption, banning  technologies,
restricting and taxing  BTUs, permiting  the suppression of research and the
sitting-on of energy technology innovation patents (because they are less
profitable for corporations in the sense that they represent the opportunity
cost of the status quo hydrocarbon-based energy rents  that the energy
cartel would be forced to forego.).

If there are lead times required for the important survival-serving
innovations, then we had better be getting started.  The worst thing is to
say --  "Gee, this won't be ready in time-- global warming will have killed
us all long before any
of this can have effect," (in the extreme of this kind reasoning -- which is
really the disinformation line of the monopolist's
"environmentalism-fronted" mouthpieces who lobby for barriers to entry
preventing the innovation that will
save the day. (They don't want the day saved for the middle class, or for
the non-globalist way of life.)

Both.  While it is the  anti-development agenda that is most important,  it
is the anti-"growth" agenda, that is easiest to sell.  In fact they
carefully conceal the fact that that  the "development" baby goes out with
the "growth" bathwater.)

They insist, roughly speaking, that  hydrocarbon fueled growth is going to
ruin
the biosphere before cleaner technologies can appear -- so we must
throttle growth now  And my reply, roughly speaking, is that it is not
just growth you are throttling, it is human adaptation, human adaptability,
the rate of human adaptability, the capacity of human adaptability, the
lead-time of human adaptability as well.  (You are aware that elsewhere I
have called this lobbying operation economic sabotage through disinformation
warfare -- and possibly an act of hostility by a Trotskyite-Zhouist alliance
of enemies of what America once stood for.)

Skinner's rats are biased towards food, but it is the incentive system that
determines whether the rat will just walk up to the dish and eat, or whether
it will
instead push a ball down a runway, climb a latter, push a lever, jump unto a
platform, push a button when a light turns green, and do half a dozen other
things first.  Forget "bias", and instead  look at consequences of actions,
follow the money, see who is getting reinforced for doing what (and for not
doing what).

It is a trick of rhetoric you are pulling here, are you aware of it?
You are appealing to this argument: ( Supply Cheech and Chong accent as you
read):

"Hey man. You got biases.  I got biases.  Hey, its 50-50 , man!  You're not
being fair, man.  It's 50-50, you know?"

No, not QED, but still, the  guy who brings up the fact that everyone has
biases is usually CLOSED MINDED and AVOIDING THE CONTENT OF  THE OTHER GUYS
ARGUMENT.

The fact is that "bias" is intrinsic to all purposive behavior.  To call a
guy biased is like telling a swimmer going up against you in a race and just
waiting for the starting gun, "I've noticed that your  feet always start
kicking before you hit the water."

Purpose is bias.  ANd there is not such thing as bias in the sense of
systematic error in our behavior -- there is no survival value in not
perfectly apprehending the truth of a situation in all its ramifications. No
species could make it with any bias that deviates from an accurate
understanding of how the environment really is working at a given moment.
Our learning does not lean.  If we think otherwise we have reasons for
thinking otherwise, not biases.

We may have favoritism, but we know when we are cheating to make sure that
our dear favorite wins. The bias that results from preference and emotional
conditioning, is not intellectual bias.  Intellectual bias does not exist.
(It is a species of Marxism which you have fallen into -- the view that each
class or interest group has its own logic.  There is a name for this fallacy
of yours, it is called polylogism.  It does not exist.  We all learn like
Skinner and Pavlov have described, not like Marx or Hegel would have had you
believe.

I CUT THIS HERE  -- BUT CONCLUDE AGAIN WITH CFR KISSINGER:

"Today American's would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to
restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if
they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or
promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples
of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil.
The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee
of their well being granted to them by their world government."

I share this, not so you will wilt and give up, but so you will distrust all
grafts not originally growing from the grass root.

Again my apologies for Alan Lewis, for using portions of our correspondence
to promote my own analysis.

Best wishes for a better future through electricity,

Dick Eastman
Yakima, Washington
Every man is responsible to every other man.


author: DegussaDan

text:
Please just go away.  You are not convincing anyone with your ranting.  Most
people who follow this group are educated experienced people who will not be
swayed by your paranoid (and horribly lengthy) postings.  This group is
dedicated to a specific industry - your postings are welcome in that context.
Remove Qnojunk from my email address to reach me.


author: veripwolf

subject: Landing, but not staying - proof of funds

text:
I will be landing in Toronto on Saturday the 29th. I am not relocating
to Canada at this time, but my landing expiration date is August 2nd. I
am only staying for a couple of days and then flying back to Ireland.
Are immigration officers aware and accepting of people arriving in
Canada for a few days to just secure landing and apply for their
resident card?

If I am not relocating at this time, do I need to show proof of funds?
When I applied for permanent residency in 2002, I submitted a Canadian
job offer with my application. So do I need proof of funds if I am
going to work in Canada as soon as I do relocate?

Can I show an Irish bank statement instead of landing with a load of
cash in my pocket?

Thanks in advance!


author: David Peacock

subject: Re: Landing, but not staying - proof of funds

text:
Welcome to Canada. :-)

veripwolf <[email]> wrote:

This is a pretty common practise.

That's a grey area as far as I am concerned. It strikes me that your
situation may be considered unusual. If the job offer you used to get
points on your PR is not actually valid, then that could be considered
mis-representation. Is the job still on the cards? By indicating that
you are not taking up residence immediately, this could be in question.

All they need is proof of funds in a readily transferable form - so your
Irish bank statement will be perfect. :-)

Welcome once again! :-)


author: [redacted]

text:
David Peacock wrote:

Indeed. If someone got points for pre-arranged employment, then didn't
land until just before their visa expired, then when they did land said
they'd be leaving again shortly... well, if I was an immigration
officer I'd be asking a lot of questions.

    Mark


author: Ernie Jurick

subject: Re: Words and bullets: The "debate" about gun control misses the point

text:
"Ray" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Imagine what Iraq would be like if Bush had access to the draft, as Johnson
and Nixon had during Vietnam. The death toll would be in the tens of
thousands. Giving a warmonger access to an unlimited supply of cannon fodder
is like giving an alcoholic keys to the liquor store. The US military does
not want the draft, since volunteers are far better soldiers than someone
serving against his will.
-- Ernie


author: Dave Head

text:
On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:32:49 -0700, "Ernie Jurick"
<[email]> wrote:

Yeah, just imagine.  One of the left's criticizms of the handling of the war
was that we went in with too few troops.  Some generals agree.  What if we'd
have went in with 500,000 men?  Well, we'd have been able to secure all the
ammo dumps we found, stopped the wholesale looting that happend and for which
we didn't have enough people, and would have been able to patrol far more
territory far more frequently.  Al Queda in Iraq would likely never have gotten
a foothold, and we'd have likely had enough people to watch the borders more
closely, especially with Iran.


text:
"nick c" <[email]> wrote in message
news:WLbck.712$Ae3.10@trnddc05...

WWI and WWII and Vietnam proved the point admirably, especially WWI. If a
commander lost 10,000 men after sending them across half a mile of knee-deep
mud to attach some machine-gun emplacements, he simply rang up and ordered
10,000 more. A commander with an unlimited supply of bodies isn't going to
be concerned with using his troops wisely, because there are plenty more
where they came from. The death toll among troops in Iraq is low compared
with Vietnam because the American military is the now best in the world and
there's a limited number of them. I'm not aware of any commander who's
suggested bringing back the draft, only the chickenhawks.
-- Ernie


author: nick c

subject:
Re: Words and bullets: The "debate" about gun control misses the
 point

text:
Ernie Jurick wrote:

I can't speak for WWl but that would not have been true in WWll. While
there were many men lost trying to overtake enemy emplacements, they
were emplacements that had to be taken. As for an unlimited supply of
manpower, I can't recall time when we didn't need more men.

If you have had the experience of command, I'd like to know more about
what you thought of your men.

Experienced troops are a treasure to a commander. Recruits have to learn
quick or they didn't last very long. But no commander that I knew ever
thought his men were expendable.

Note: Truman had access to a large supply of bodies but he still ordered
the bomb to be dropped.


text:
"nick c" <[email]> wrote in message
news:NrAck.1105$bn3.789@trnddc07...

Read a history of WWI.

Yes, the projections were for a million dead Americans and allied forces in
the taking of mainland Japan. Truman had access to a weapon that could
prevent that from happening and he used it. Bully for him. The commanders
still expected lose a great number of men from resistance even after a
surrender. Hirohito's message to his people stopped all resistance in its
tracks.
-- Ernie


text:
Ernie Jurick wrote:

Why? You intend to condemn commanders of today for the actions of WWl
commanders? You're sick.

I truly believe I'm here today because Truman made that decision. Yes
.... Bully for him.

There was alway a mopping up to do but commanders never knew what the
effort would be until an encounter was met.

No.

Ernie, you must be a real live pistol with people who can't see the
brown level in your eyeballs.  <g>


author: rockandrollbadboy

subject: Will be teaching a screenwriting seminar in Los Angeles in September, 2004

text:
I am the author of over three screenplays, with one being produced
currently and another being shot in October. I will be doing a
workshop/class in October in the L.A. area.  I think anyone who wants
to succeed in this business should attend. Anyone interested?

Brett


author: wcmartell

subject: Re: Will be teaching a screenwriting seminar in Los Angeles in September, 2004

text:
[email] (rockandrollbadboy) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Sorry. I'll be on the Raindance International Film Fest jury in London
in October... and your heading says *September*, so which is it?

- Bill
free script tips:
http://www.scriptsecrets.net


author: Paulo Joe Jingy

subject:
Re: Will be teaching a screenwriting seminar in Los Angeles in September,
 2004

text:
rockandrollbadboy wrote:

Only if you charge a lot of money.


author: Jacques E. Bouchard

text:
[email] (rockandrollbadboy) wrote in
news:[email]:

    	Over three screenplays! That's, like, almost four!

jaybee


author: Clay Heery

text:
Must be one of those seminars that seems like it's never going to end.

--C.
"Do we break for Thanksgiving?"


author: DKC

subject: ====== New computer systems to your specs /dealer prices=======

text:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

E-mail for our updated dealer price list on custom systems.

Complete line of parts.

On-site warranty available.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


subject: Intel gives back to mutual fund investors

text:
Intel's Pentium III giveaway at Mutual Funds Interactive
(www.fundsinteractive.com) has only two and a half weeks left. It's
your chance to win a full Pentium III PC without cost or obligation.
Who said that there's no such thing as a "free lunch"?

Visit www.fundsinteractive.com/sweepstakes.html for the quick online
entry form. It'll take less than a minute to do, and you could win a
new computer.


author: A.L. Bell

subject: Feeding all the time

text:
If you feed your baby/will feed your baby all the time, on demand, and
have no problems, please ignore this post.

If you have to feed your baby all the time and your baby seems
unhappy, or seems not to be gaining weight very well . . .

La Leche League Web site folks and folks here usually say the first
weapon against supply problems is to feed your baby a lot, on demand.

What they probably have in the back of their minds, but don't always
say, is that feeding a lot on demand only works well if you're feeding
effectively (getting milk out) at least part of the time.

The baby, should, obviously, have a good latch.

Somewhat less obviously, the baby should be *swallowing milk.* If you
have a lot of milk and your baby swallows loudly, this might be very
obvious. But, if you have a baby who swallows quietly, without many
visible signs of swallowing, it might hard to figure out when your
baby is swallowing. (I thought my own baby was swallowing when the
skin under ears was fluttering and sucking in air when she clicked,
but the lactation consultant explained that what I thought were clicks
were, in fact, swallows.)

Also, a lot of the time, your baby should either be swallowing milk or
doing something to stimulate milk production. If you have your baby on
without him/her drinking, and either your latch is so bad or your milk
production is so messed up that having the baby on does nothing to
increase milk production, and your baby really wants to be drinking,
not just suckling, that's a huge, exhausting, frustrating waste of
time for both you and your baby.

So, breastfeeding might go smoothly for 95 percent of women, but, if
your baby is nursing all the time, I don't think it's great idea to
assume "that's just how babies are." I think it's good in a case like
that to see a lactation consultant right away and make sure there
isn't some obvious problem that needs fixing.


author: Clisby Williams

subject: Re: Feeding all the time

text:
A.L. Bell wrote:

I'd be amazed if breastfeeding went smoothly for 95% of women (if by
"smoothly" you mean
'with no problems.")   However, I wouldn't recommend seeing a lactation
consultant
just because a baby wants to nurse all the time.   You'd need to
consider:  Is the baby
producing enough wet/dirty diapers?  Is the baby gaining weight?  Does
the baby appear
alert/content?   If the answers are yes, why see an LC just because the
baby nurses
all the time?

Clisby


author: Kavvy

subject: Re: Feeding all the time

text:
A.L. Bell wrote:

I think if baby is nursing all the time and does not have adequate
output/gain, then I'd see a lactation consultant.  If latch and everything
is fine, baby is still nursing all the time, mom has milk, baby is still not
having adequate output/poor weight gain, I'd get the baby checked out to
make sure they don't have some kind of muscle tone problem that effects
their suck.  If baby has lots of output but slow gain I might not worry (not
really been there, I'm sure it is easier said then done).  If baby has lots
of output but poor or no gain, or loss, then I'd definately follow up to
make sure the baby is healthy.  I would not assume that was a breastfeeding
problem necessarily.


author: silvasurfa

subject: Re: Feeding all the time

text:
"A.L. Bell" <[email]> wrote in message

It is however, very normal for some happy healthy well fed babies to have a
period of some hours each evening when they wish to nurse pretty much non
stop. Very normal, very ordinary, and best dealt with by planning your life
so you can let the baby nurse.

I do however agree that if a baby wants to nurse all the time for day after
day after day then there might be a problem...  or it might be normal, a
product of the baby's desire for comforting rather than a food issue.


author: ajsands

subject: Re: Why Not Mutual Funds?

text:
[email] wrote:

Actually, interest rate increases generally have a negative effect on
both bond prices (because it reduces yield to maturity IF THE BOND IS
SOLD--an item Sheldon neglects since you get exactly what you expected
to earn IF YOU JUST HOLD THE BOND TO MATURITY) and preferred stocks.


author: Rose Mclellan

subject: Re: FS: BSDI/OS 4.01 Internet Super Server Operating System

text:
At the moment i work for Asda part-time and attend college, recently
the college timetable changed and i had to change my hours at work,
they were very understanding and between us we came up with new hours
wich suited both the company and myself.


author: Beavis

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
In article <9k77s3$fvs$[email]>, Ronnie Ruff
<[email]> writes

If "not all" diabetics are interested, then some (by definition) MUST
be, and as this is a group of many, it's interesting to SOME. For that
reason alone, I think that giving the impression (to be polite) that
posts of this nature aren't wanted, is a definite no-no.

?????

But they DO. They give some people a little more information and with it
a little more hope for the future.

Beav


subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
In article <[email]>, Ted Rosenberg
<[email]> writes

His Ted, his. You're showing the typical America view of the world which
seems to be that there's nothing outside the US.

I'd say Matti was Finnish and a bloke.

Beav


author: Ted Rosenberg

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
cc'd by email
May I suggest a compromise
Matti should take her summaries, fold them sideways, starch them, and
shove them up her posterior orifice.

She should then troll on somewhere she is welcome
say "alt.conspirancy"

"W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)" wrote:


subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
well, I don't know if this is the one - but there is a new hormone ready
to come to market this year

"R.O." wrote:


subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
<<THE HORMONE — called adiponectin or Acrp30 — helped diabetic mice
overcome insulin resistance in tests conducted by researchers in New York and
Japan.>>

Oh, thank goodness......I was worried about my diabetic mouse.........


author: Matti Narkia

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
<[email]> "R.O." <[email]> wrote:

and

31 Jul 2001 04:55:41 GMT in article
<[email]> [email]
(BLASH404) wrote:

IMHO, there is no need for sarcasm. This is interesting stuff although
admittedly so far only in preliminary animal test phase. A cittion from
the nes report:

    "Scientists may have found a hormone that helps fight diabetic
    insulin resistance in one of the least likely places ï¿½ fat cells."

The two reported studies were published in a top class journal, in the
August issue of Nature Medicine. Below references to these studies:

The fat-derived hormone adiponectin reverses insulin resistance
associated with both lipoatrophy and obesity.
T Yamauchi, J Kamon, H Waki, Y Terauchi, N Kubota, K Hara, Y Mori, T
Ide, K Murakami, N Tsuboyama-Kasaoka, O Ezaki, Y Akanuma, O Gavrilova, C
Vinson, M L Reitman, H Kagechika, K Shudo, M Yoda, Y Nakano, K Tobe, R
Nagai, S Kimura, M Tomita, P Froguel & T
Nature Medicine, August 2001 Volume 7 Number 8 pp 941 - 946
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nm/journal/v7/n8/abs/nm0801_934.html

    "Adiponectin is an adipocyte-derived hormone. Recent genome-wide
    scans have mapped a susceptibility locus for type 2 diabetes and
    metabolic syndrome to chromosome 3q27, where the gene encoding
    adiponectin is located. Here we show that decreased expression of
    adiponectin correlates with insulin resistance in mouse models of
    altered insulin sensitivity. Adiponectin decreases insulin
    resistance by decreasing triglyceride content in muscle and liver
    in obese mice. This effect results from increased expression of
    molecules involved in both fatty-acid combustion and energy
    dissipation in muscle. Moreover, insulin resistance in lipoatrophic
    mice was completely reversed by the combination of physiological
    doses of adiponectin and leptin, but only partially by either
    adiponectin or leptin alone. We conclude that decreased adiponectin
    is implicated in the development of insulin resistance in mouse
    models of both obesity and lipoatrophy. These data also indicate
    that the replenishment of adiponectin might provide a novel
    treatment modality for insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes."

The adipocyte-secreted protein Acrp30 enhances hepatic insulin action.
A H Berg, T P Combs, X Du, M Brownlee & P E Scherer
Nature Medicine, August 2001 Volume 7 Number 8 pp 947 - 953
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nm/journal/v7/n8/abs/nm0801_947.html

    "Acrp30 is a circulating protein synthesized in adipose tissue. A
    single injection in mice of purified recombinant Acrp30 leads to a
    2ï¿½3-fold elevation in circulating Acrp30 levels, which triggers a
    transient decrease in basal glucose levels. Similar treatment in
    ob/ob, NOD (non-obese diabetic) or streptozotocin-treated mice
    transiently abolishes hyperglycemia. This effect on glucose is not
    associated with an increase in insulin levels. Moreover, in
    isolated hepatocytes, Acrp30 increases the ability of sub-
    physiological levels of insulin to suppress glucose production. We
    thus propose that Acrp30 is a potent insulin enhancer linking
    adipose tissue and whole-body glucose metabolism."

Related Medline references:

Weyer C, Funahashi T, Tanaka S, Hotta K, Matsuzawa Y, Pratley RE,
Tataranni PA.
Hypoadiponectinemia in obesity and type 2 diabetes: close association
with insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 May;86(5):1930-5.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11344187&dopt=Abstract

Hotta K, Funahashi T, Bodkin NL, Ortmeyer HK, Arita Y, Hansen BC,
Matsuzawa Y.
Circulating concentrations of the adipocyte protein adiponectin are
decreased in parallel with reduced insulin sensitivity during the
progression to type 2 diabetes in rhesus monkeys.
Diabetes. 2001 May;50(5):1126-33.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11334417&dopt=Abstract

Matsuzawa Y. R
[Life style-related disease].
Nippon Rinsho. 2001 Jan;59(1):188-94. Review. Japanese.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11197854&dopt=Abstract

Hotta K, Funahashi T, Arita Y, Takahashi M, Matsuda M, Okamoto Y,
Iwahashi H, Kuriyama H, Ouchi N, Maeda K, Nishida M, Kihara S, Sakai N,
Nakajima T, Hasegawa K, Muraguchi M, Ohmoto Y, Nakamura T, Yamashita S,
Hanafusa T, Matsuzawa Y.
Plasma concentrations of a novel, adipose-specific protein, adiponectin,
in type 2 diabetic patients.
Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2000 Jun;20(6):1595-9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10845877&dopt=Abstract


author: Michael James Braunstein

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
"W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)" <[email]> wrote in
message news:[email]...

wes,

instead of posting every time you add someone to your kill file, why not
simply and quietly do so?

btw, <plonk>

mjb


author: Nikkie

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
Matti --

I read the research, also -- funny thing is, if you read enough, you find so
many doctors and scientists contradicting each other, and/or pretending that
the other's research doesn't exist, that you begin to agree with Pianoguy.
It's hard enough to find consensus about here-and-now treatment for anything
in the medical profession, (except that they need more research to prove the
validity of the previous research) -- without venturing into the realm of
laboratory mice.

Thanks, but I think we all know where Medscape is -- it's too bad more
doctors don't; they might learn something from each other.

Nikkie


author: Ronnie Ruff

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
"Matti Narkia" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

| IMHO, there is no need for sarcasm. This is interesting stuff although
| admittedly so far only in preliminary animal test phase. A cittion from
| the nes report:

While it may be interesting to you Matti, many diabetics (not all) find it
not as interesting as things that can help them with diabetes right now.
Not being a diabetic I understand this is not something you can relate to.
Many are here for support and help with diabetes, while these kinds of posts
are interesting to some they are not supportive nor do they help diabetics
deal with their disease.  I think maybe you should step back and ask
yourself why you are posting here.  Certainly you have the right to but if
you are not here to support diabetics or offer help to diabetics what is
your reason for posting?


author: *BobGootee

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
Michael James Braunstein wrote:

Michael,
To publicly plonk (filter/killfile) somebody is making a statement and
informing that person and the others.

If one were to get plonked left and right they might get the hint and
reevaluate.


author: Wes Groleau

subject: Re: to plonk loudly or edit quietly?

text:
My usual procedure.  However, I felt that particular
post required a public disapproval.  Having cooled
down slightly, I now believe otherwise.  Sorry.


author: Herman Rubin

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
In article <2vJ97.3159$[email]>,
Nikkie <[email]> wrote:

On that you are correct.

However, the basic biological research largely has not been
done, and it is more likely to be done on laboratory animals
than on humans.  The technique of knocking out genes to see
the effect, so as to understand what the genes do, is clearly
not going to be done on humans, or even on monkeys.

As to not having consensus, I do not consider this bad.  In
fact, considering the paucity of knowledge, I consider it
good.  Doctors should present us with a digested version of
the information, and let us decide the course of treatment,
especially as YMMV.


author: Blankitty

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
I think a thread on this is interesting to know what the scientists
are looking into in fighting this.  I think a summary of the info.
added as another message will give people less with less science
background a better idea of what's happening.

If someone thinks this thread is borring then they have the ability
to skip those threads.  Keep the new research posts coming.


author: ALAN H BARR

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
Ronnie Ruff wrote:

Well, speaking as a "brittle" T2 (glucophage, diet, exercise) I find the posts
to be important and interesting. Progress per year (on promising T1 and T2
avenues  for new treatments) seems to be speeding up. At some point soon
(a few years) it looks like there can be some new approaches available for
many of us. And I'm not talking about magnetic shoe inserts or miracle herbs.

I find the long-term view to be useful, as well as the short-term
information needed for taking care of things now.

These newsgroups are appropriate for both the long-term and the short-term
information.

Adiponectin plus leptin treatment for T2's may not be all that far-fetched or
far
off (possible clinical trials in 2002). Or it could be another false lead. But I

feel that new and effective types of treatments are just around the corner.

Even Glucophage  is quite new  for US patients, cleared for marketing in the US
in 1995. (Approved back in 1958 in France, however).

                                                                   Al


author: Rob Carr

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:26:54 -0400, "Ronnie Ruff"
<[email]> wrote:

Ronnie -

Human Level 1 trials begin in early 2002 with a biologically active
subunit of this protein. It's being tested out on obese people.
Hopefully a few of them are diabetic or at least insulin resistant as
well.

Rob


subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
cc'd by email
Nah, the trolls don't care
the spammers don't even have real return addresses and don't read the
list anyhow
and I have VERY thick skin!

*BobGootee wrote:


author: hemyd

subject: Re: to plonk loudly or edit quietly?

text:
I have so far never put anyone in my kill file. Even the most avid nut case
may have the odd pearl of wisdom. I don't like my newsreader to decide for me
who's posts I should or shouldn't read. I read posts by some people (such as
Guy, and Ted, and others), every time, no matter what they write about. Ted
and other anti-spammers make the rare mistake, but their hit rate is generally
quite high. If it wasn't for the "anti-spam police" here, this newsgroup,
IMHO, would soon get taken over by spammers, scammers and various loonies
pushing their misguided theories.

Wes Groleau wrote:


subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
On 1 Aug 2001 00:52:39 -0700, [email] (Blankitty)
wrote:

Over in sci.med.diseases.diabetes, we're engaged in a discussion about
the implications of the adiponectin study.

This information may be usable now by diabetics. I've explained my
idea over in SMDD.

Rob


subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
1 Aug 2001 00:52:39 -0700 in article
<[email]> [email]
(Blankitty) wrote:

As I mentioned in another message, there exists a NG called
sci.med.diseases.diabetes . If your ISP doesn't have it, ask them to get
it. It's been almost unused, but Rob Carr and I just posted a couple of
messages there. Hope the volume will increase when the word about its
existence spreads around.


subject: Re: to plonk loudly or edit quietly?

text:
"hemyd" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

| I have so far never put anyone in my kill file. Even the most avid nut
case
| may have the odd pearl of wisdom. I don't like my newsreader to decide for
me
| who's posts I should or shouldn't read. I read posts by some people (such
as
| Guy, and Ted, and others), every time, no matter what they write about.
Ted
| and other anti-spammers make the rare mistake, but their hit rate is
generally
| quite high. If it wasn't for the "anti-spam police" here, this newsgroup,
| IMHO, would soon get taken over by spammers, scammers and various loonies
| pushing their misguided theories.
|

"You" have control of your Newsreader software


author: Danieljsza

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
My  home news server gets that ng  but no posts show up  it is not available on
AOL  but i have asked for it
AKA [email]  T2 15 yrs(orals for 12 1/2) now on insulin(R+N) and
now added Avandia

" The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do"


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
Matti Narkia <[email]> wrote:

Alas, from NewsGuy: ["this group" = sci.med.diseases.diabetes]

---start reply

Hi Dirk,

Thanks for your inquiry. You're welcome to submit group requests
through the support form or within the newsguy.addgroup.propose forum.
The sci.* hierarchy falls within the Big 8 group categories, which are
administered by ISC.ORG. When groups are created after following a
formal process, a PGP-signed control message is sent out by ISC.ORG to
all news sites, which update their grouplists based on these notices.
This is a lot different in comparison to alt.* and other hierarchies
which don't have as stringent policies.

In the case of this group, it is actually not an official group and
not propagated through Usenet, where the official Big 8 forum for this
topic is...

misc.health.diabetes

...which is currently carried. The following groups are also carried
as well....

alt.food.diabetic
alt.health.diabetes
alt.support.diabetes
alt.support.diabetes.kids

For reference, I provided a copy below of the control message history
for sci.med.diseases.diabetes below.

Best regards,

Mike


author: W. Wesley Groleau (Wes

subject: Re: New hormone fights diabetes

text:
May I suggest a compromise on the dispute (Spam!  Not!  Spam!  Not!)?

For one month, post your summaries there and in misc.health.diabetes,
with a note on top that they will eventually be only in sci.med....
Post a one-to-three-liner in alt.support.diabetes stating that it is
available over there.

After that month, just post in alt.support.diabetes once a month
mentioning the fact that that NG exists.

Perhaps whoever maintains a FAQ or posting guidelines for either NG can
mention the other NG.


subject: Re: to plonk loudly or edit quietly?

text:
You know, if someone doesn't like "spam Cops" by ALL means they should
killfile me - Newsfixer does a good job.

Ronnie Ruff wrote:


subject: Re: to plonk loudly or edit quietly?

text:
Ted Rosenberg wrote:

<<You know, if someone doesn't like "spam Cops" by ALL means they should
killfile me - Newsfixer does a good job.>>

	That's an excellent idea for some people.......I take a different approach as
I like a good chuckle.......I NEVER killfile people.......
	Whenever I see their address on a post, before I open it, I automatically
think: GET A LIFE ALREADY! !
	That's usually good for a smile........


author: harry manka

subject: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
I got a speeding ticket in NJ recently (42 mph in 25 mph zone). I had
just moved to NJ from PA and was going to a bank one Saturday morning
when there was absolutely no traffic on the street, minding my own
business and I was pulled over by a cop. He asked for license,
registration and insurance. I tried to tell him that I was new to the
area and had no idea about the speed limit (which by the way is posted
as 25 mph). He asked me later what speed I thought I was going at and
I told him...oh, I am not sure, but maybe 30 or so. That's when he
told me that he clocked me at 42 mph using radar and gave me a ticket.
Later I pleaded "NOT GUILTY" to the charge.

Now here's the question: When the cop wrote me a ticket, he wrote
correct license plate number, but incorrect state (he wrote NJ instead
of PA plates that I had then). Can I use this lapse on his part
effectively for my defense and to get the charges dropped. I believe
that the vehicle and it's description is a critical part of the
evidence and since the cop put down wrong state, the evidence is
tainted.

Do I have a case? Thanks...you can respond to me directly or here.

Harry

        Reply  Reply All  Forward    Delete  Put in Folder...InboxSent
MessagesDraftsTrash Canprivate  Previous   Next | Close


subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
hmanka wrote:

The overwhelming majority here say you don't. Of course it's frustrating to be
charged with breaking the law when apparently one believes one is an otherwise
upstanding citizen who honestly had no intent to break the law. Indeed, you
probably are such a citizen. But I wonder whether you are considering the
importance of people being alert to speed limits. The next guy/gal who does
what you did might have an accident. Unlikely, but still possible. Posted speed
limits have a purpose.

I think the important questions are:  Did you take any pains to ascertain what
the speed limit was and drive at that speed? Did you break the law by not doing
so? Lastly, if more people went to court for the reasons you are proposing,
does it needlessly cost the taxpayer more or less?

It's your right to pursue this in court, but I think you are imposing on the
public's tax dollars by doing so.  I'd own up to my mistake, take the fine or
an alternative like driving school, and let this slide off my shoulders. Don't
forget the emotional energy you'll have to expend by fighting this when the
chances of victory are so small.

Good luck.


author: Stan Brown

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
[cc'd to previous poster; please follow up in newsgroup]

harry manka <[email]> wrote in misc.legal.moderated:

Probably a waste of time and money. (Many judges are up front that
they charge you more if you plead not guilty than if you plead
guilty.)

Almost certainly not.

This question has been asked here before, and the response from
people more learned than I has been, essentially, clerical errors
like that can get corrected during trial, if anyone bothers, but
they don't void the ticket.

If the officer shows up, you'll almost certainly be found guilty. If
the officer doesn't show, you should ask the judge to dismiss the
case but s/he may instead give the officer another chance.


author: William P. Brown

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
harry manka wrote:

I'm not an attorney but I've seen this question on this group often
enough to know that you don't have a prayer.

Find out if you can get the speeding charge dismissed by going to
"driver's school." If that's possible, based on my own experience I
wouldn't burden the judge will irrelevancies when making a motion to
send me to school. Also based on my experience with traffic court, there
are either no comedians in the court room, or there's one - the judge.

Regards,
Bill


author: John Berryhill

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
Relevant evidence includes such things, the existence of which in fact,
tends to make a proposition either more probable or less probable.  The fact
that your license plate was issued in Pennsylvania instead of New Jersey
doesn't have much to do with what you were charged with - i.e. speeding -
and is not evidence that you were speeding.  It might be relevant to, say,
credibility, but it is hardly as relevant as your admission, to millions of
computer users all over the world, that you were, in fact, speeding.

So, you've moved to New Jersey and are still displaying PA plates on your
car, eh?  Just out of curiousity, since you showed the police officer your
proof of insurance - have you notified your insurance agent that you have
moved to New Jersey, or are you going to wait until you get to court before
someone else asks you that question?


author: BR

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
"harry manka" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

[popped for speeding, cop put wrong plate on ticket]

If the ticket has wrong plate number or state, it will be difficult for the
law to track you down, so one might get away with simply throwing the ticket
away.

On the other hand, the speeding fine is probably negligible compared to what
will happen to your insurance rates. Paying the fine will avoid them even
trying to track you down, thus reducing the likelihood that it will ever
show up on your driving record. (The details of your insurance contract and
it's requirements for voluntary disclosure of such a ticket is a different
matter)

This may be too late, however, if you've already gone to court. My
experience with traffic court in the state of MA:

- You won't see a judge, but a prosecuting attorney sitting behind the bench
who will find everyone guilty and ask if they wish to appeal
- If you wish to appeal, you will need to return a second time, you will see
a real judge (and probably the cop).  The judge won't really know anything
about the law, or care.  In all likelihood he will thank you for pointing
out the error the cop made on the ticket, advise the officer to be more
careful, and then find you guilty and order the fine.

-- Bill
Dr. William T Ralston
email: wtr aht lgcy dot com


subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
[email] (harry manka) wrote in message
news:<[email]>...

No.  I've worked in municipal courts for a couple of decades and the
fact that an officer makes a minor mistake on a traffic ticket is not
a defense.

The officer could put down an extremely vague descrition such as
"brown car" and not put down the license tag at all and it would have
no bearing on the ticket.  The things that do have bearing are:

1.  Identity of the driver,
2.  Time of alleged offense,
3.  Speed limit in area,
4.  If the speed limit was properly posted,
5.  Evidence of car driven by driver exceeding limit (usually radar).

I have seen tickets dismissed when the officer puts down a wrong date
and time and it is not amended by the prosecutor before trial starts.
Likewise I have seen tickets dismissed for bad ID information, also if
not amended before trial starts.

Basically, what you are doing is looking for a loophole, which is
legally acceptable, of course, but which is not as easy as TV and
urban legend would have you believe.  Officers are allowed to make
minor mistakes on tickets and the prosecutor is even allowed to amend
the complaint if major ones are made.  Or, in some jurisdictions, if a
major mistake is made on a complaint, the charge is dismissed without
prejudice and a new complaint is filed.

Caveat, different judges and jurisdictiions view arguments like yours
differently so no absolute answer is possible.


author: David Chesler

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
WahTaWah41 wrote:

 Is it more likely than if the next driver is paying equal attention
to road and traffic conditions but is also driving at a rate of
speed below the posted limit?

 (ObLegal = Clarity of thought and argument)

 Speeders are also taxpayers.

 I'm sure if the traffic cops or the prosecutors withdraw the
accusation, Original Poster will gladly do without his day in
court (<- MoreObLegal), thereby saving all taxpayers even more money.


author: Richard Wahng

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
Just a couple of quick points to add to this already lenthgy thread:

1. Traffic violation is strict liability, which means it doesn't
matter whehter you intended to speed or not, as long as they can prove
you did (radar reading), you're liable. Which leads me to
2. The NJ/PA distinction IMO will not hold ANY signficance, someone
suggested here that it may be used to show the cop's inattention to
details. This argument will almost never fly. Writing down the wrong
state is one thing but clocking you at 42Mph is another. 42 is a
precise number, and it is highly unlikely that the cop "misread" the
radar reading. It's not "around forty miles per hour" or any ambigous
statements of that nature. 42 is 42, and the judge will tell you
radars are 90%+ accurate.

Absent some mechanical failure (i.e., speedometer error), you don't
even have a shot of reducing the fine (ok, some judges will reduce it
if you cry in front of them ... or maybe beg).

Pay the fine, it's a lost cause.

DISCLAIMER
The above IS NOT legal advice and CANNOT be considered as rendition of
any legal service. I WILL NOT BE HELD LIABLE for any consequences
resulting from relaince thereof, whether foreseeable or unforseeable.
I am a second year law student giving my PERSONAL OPINION on the
matters discussed above. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CHECK AND CONSULT WITH A
LICENSED ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE.


author: John F Carr

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
In article <[email]>, BR wrote:

The plate is not important for this purpose.  They will use the
driver's license first.  If the driver's license number is wrong,
name and date of birth are sufficient for the computer system.
(If you have a common name, there may be more than one match in
the database and they may not know which one is you; in that case
they might suspend the license of some other driver with the same
name.)

Depends on the state.  In some states the process is sufficiently
automated, or the insurers are sufficiently aggressive, that you have
no chance of escaping the consequences of conviction.  For example:
all Massachusetts verdicts go into the RMV computer to be used for
license revocations and insurance surcharges; New Jersey pulls records
from New York for insurance surcharges even though New York does not
actively report most convictions out of state.

Massachusetts is unusually harsh on defendants in traffic cases.  You
go to court with a presumption of guilt and no right to discovery.
Most states have more procedural safeguards.  (At least the Mass.
courts ruled that the practice of having the judge act as prosecutor
was improper, overturning a well established tradition in Boston
Municipal Court.)

Even in a criminal case, I don't think an incorrect license plate
would be a defense.  The law in my state says:

    A defendant shall not be acquitted on the ground of
    variance between the allegations and proof if the
    essential elements of the crime are correctly stated,
    unless he is thereby prejudiced in his defence. He shall
    not be acquitted by reason of an immaterial misnomer of a
    third party, an immaterial mistake in the description of
    property or the ownership thereof, failure to prove
    unnecessary allegations in the description of the crime
    or any other immaterial mistake in the indictment.

A license plate number is not an essential element of most
motor vehicle crimes.


author: W. Michael Jacobs

subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
In article <[email]>, "BR"
<[email]> writes:

Uh, NOT.    That might work for _parking_ tickets, where they don't know who
the owner is until they track it down thru the plates, and searching the wrong
state's tag database won't find the unknown owner.   But I'm sure as sunrise
that the cop also asked the poster his NAME, ADDRESS, and for his DRIVER"S
LICENSE, and wrote down all that info on the speeding ticket too.    It doesn't
matter whose car he's driving, or what the tag says; they know WHO was driving.

Ignoring a ticket for a moving violation is a really bad idea.   Most states
belong to something called the "interstate compact" where they share info on
driving violations with each other.   An ignored ticket in that hick state you
were just passing thru can cause your license to be suspended in the state you
live in, maybe months or years later, but the hassle is just as big.   And
meanwhile, the unpaid ticket may be doubling the fine every month or so, or
otherwise accumulating interest, late fees, court costs, etc., and it may take
you mucho dinero to get that hick state to clear your record so your home state
will give you your license back.

Perhaps needless to say, driving around anyway, while your license is
suspended, is also a really, REALLY bad idea.

My comments are for discussion purposes, not professional advice
I am not your lawyer and you are not my client in any specific legal matter
[email]
W. Michael Jacobs
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044 USA
410-740-5685


subject: Re: Help - Speeding Ticket

text:
In article <[email]>,
Richard Wahng <[email]> wrote:

While specific intent to exceed the speed limit need not be proved,
there are at least three defenses that can be raised after proof of
speed in excess of the limit.

1. Some states (maybe all) allow as an affirmative defense excusable
inability to control the car: sudden brake failure, stuck throttle,
etc.

2. Speed limits are generally divided by state law into two
categories: unposted and posted.  Generally there is a set
of unposted statewide limits based on the type of road and
whether it is urban or rural.  Other speed limits must be
posted to take effect.  Typically, the prosecution must
present evidence that there are speed limit signs and the
defense must raise as an affirmative defense lack of
authorization or improper placement.

3. New Jersey is among the states where speed in excess of the limit
is not conclusive proof of guilt.   The real offense is driving
faster than reasonable and proper and the speed limit is one piece
of evidence to be considered by the judge.  The defendant is permitted
to attempt to persuade the judge that he was driving safely.

The original poster does have evidence that the usual speed limit was
too low for the circumstances -- it was a weekend morning with no
traffic.  However, because this defense involves balancing the
evidence the judge has almost unlimited discretion to overrule this
defense, as long as he pretends to listen to the evidence.  The
chances of success are poor.  I have found only one appellate decision
anywhere holding that a defendant's "reasonable and proper" defense in
a particular case _required_ a finding of not guilty despite proof of
speed in excess of the limit.

Police are trained to testify that they made an accurate visual
estimate of speed before activating their radar.  Judges give
visual estimates less weight than radar measurements, but in
most states "I estimated his speed at about 40 in a 25 zone"
is sufficient evidence to allow the judge to convict if he wants
to.  (Pennsylvania is the only exception I know of; there the
police must measure speed to support a conviction for exceeding
a speed limit.)


subject: No Credibility!

text:
Hello all

  You all know me from many post from me towards Steve Olson and A few
others here that seem to think they own the newsgroup!  I'm not a
Member of a Militia, But have had contacts with many in and out of the
Movement for years! I believe as some do that things are not right, but
fall short of all the conspiricy theorys so many seem to live in!

  What I do is as NOT CREDIBLE is Folks Like My Pal Steve (Moron that
he is) and His never ending Negative Crap? I see it as Childish and Non
Productive! Kinda like watching a Dog Chase Cars, Lord knows what he's
gonna ever do if he catches one? I see him as a Troll, an Obtructionist
and a Fool! If you all support him, Go for it, Me I don't suffer fools
well, unless it's to amuse myself! I wonder if he's got a life or trys
to live it on here? He deserves nothing but our contempt and ridicule
which he now gets his fair share!

  What does one do with one that feels he has to comment on each and
every post that shows up here, then prowls the internet slaking people
and reporting thier activites? As childish as it is, I see signs of a
Demetia that is not to be underestimated! Life puts fools like this in
our way, In my life, I've always pushed past them and Steve is just one
more troll I guess! Life usually removes such obsticles from ones path
Like a stone in your shoe and sometimes as annoying? One can hope he
seeks counciling or Grows up? Fat chance of either, But just a Thought?

                                 Ron

                                            Ron


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

  YUP, In your case, I'll make time to confront each and ever Goofbal
post of yours! Renmember in an e-mail you said I'd not return to the
newsgroup, that You would never see me there again?? Well Goofy Prince,
ya asked for it, NOW YA GOT IT! Enjoy the attention!

  Someone like you who can write tons and tons of useless crap really
shouldn't point fingers at others about thier Posts!

                                              RON


author: S. Olson

subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

You haven't been doing it lately, Ron. Get a move on and try to kick my
ass, please. :)

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

 Wrong again Steve? Man Once agfain, If you'd Listen, ya might learn
something?? LOLOL

 I retired from Ilitary Service, I still work Full time as a part of a
smal company as a consultant!

  Unlike you, MOM and Dad Don't still support me!

Your the First Long Winger asshole I saw here? Maybe your confused?

                                                RON


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

I doubt anyone has much of anything to learn from someone who retired
from 'Ilitary' service and then disagraced himself by taking up with
the Goofy Bastards.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

  Nope, wrong as usual, I retired from the Military, I still work Full
time as no one can live on The pay a Retirement gets!

   I live in the real world, you live on the net, I'll take my life any
day!

                                                       Ron


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

Ahhh, so you DON'T have 'all the time in the world' to respond to my
posts.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

  You must be listening to yourself? You go on and On about matters
you've never done, Have No Experience, But your an Expert?

  I served Uncle sam for many years, I have the right and
Responsibility to Respond and Report when his activities are not
legitimate! You on the othjer hand, Trust that Same Goverment
Completely? Your a Fool for doing so, and I know you know it about
yourself!

  If I'd have to Point to Bitching and Whining, I can Re-Print any of
your posts!

                                  Ron


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

You'd have to know what you were talking about first, Ron.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

That's true. Now that you're retired you have lots of time on your
hands to whine and bitch about the government. I hear lots of
long-winded assholes going on and on about something.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

Your mistake is thinking that the Goofy Bastards might actually fix
whatever's broken when all they are interested in is obeying only the
laws they wanna obey.

Ron, who is the REMF who made lots and lots of posts this morning
responding to everything under the sun? What bothers you is that I post
at ALL and won't automatically believe every dumbass thing you say.

As for Pussy, [shrug]. He asked for it.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

   No, we don't just follow the laws we wish! We are mostly law abiding
folks and Unlike you, we have some honor! Someone like you, whose only
life seems to be bagering folks on the net or palying Cyber Stalker, Is
Indeed worthy of our Contempt! That your a Troll is No Secret, that
most laugh at you either to your face or after the briefest contact
with you is Obvious!

  You have No Credibility, Nor an Audience! What you do have is a lot
of us wondering what sort of Meds your ON, or How old you really are?
Any age past 12 is not how you act!

 YUP, I post a lot about Fools Like youi, then sit back and watch you
rant and Rave! AS for Pussey, Seems he a lot more of a man than you'll
ever be, as he doesn't act like a child! OH well, No one exceopts you
to change, Just wondering when MOM will Ground you off your Computer?

  You Know Nothing about the Military, Then call others REMF? Know
Nothing About Security or Clearences, GHave Never Been to los Alamos,
But know al about what happened there? Once again, you Prove your a
Liar a Fool and  Loser! You'd not believe the sky is Blue or the Water
Green either if we told your Right? That only Proves what a Fool and
Dunce ya are! Rave On Gooffy Price!

  We await more of your foolsih, Mindless rantings!  LOL

                          Ron


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

I have an entire list of the Goofy Bastards who probably think they are
'law-abiding' and being picked on when they went to the slammer.

Yeah sure. Thanks Ron. As for YOUR credibility, let us know when the
Space Shuttle lands, k?

I think that'll happen to P-u-s-s-y way before it'll ever happen to me.
And according to him, his Mom's dead.

Only a REMF would get this pissed about being referred to as a REMF.

In this case, I have a congressional report stating what it found. All
you have is your own opinion.

That would be 'foolish, mindless rantings' that you can't answer, Ron.
You want more, all you have to do is open your mouth and your wish is
granted.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

  One Last thing, You trust a Goverment Report?? OH man, your Better
and Better each Post! Next you'll report on the easter Bunny or Santa?
OH man, thanks for the Belly Laugh! OH Yea, I'd Really Trsut what
Congress puts out? Oh if your Queen Hillery said it, It's have to be
true, Right? Go on Believe all that Prattle, we already know your an
idiot!

                                                             Ron


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
STEVE

  When we listen to you all we get is amused or annoyed! Your
Credibility is ) as stated previously and all here know it! Sorry if
that Ruins your Crybaby day,. but such is life!

  No Steve We see your post for that which they are, A TOTAL Waste Of
time, other than to amuse us! Sorry your lifes so bad, That your such a
fool, But I can't and won' fix that! I've seen better than you in the
gutter! Yea, Let us know when MOM lets you out of your Room, OK? You
coudn't grant our wish if you tried, Unless you went out to play in
traffic? Now that would be entertainment!

Once More, Into the Mush you Go. Goofy One! LOL

                                   Ron


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

Hey Ron? What makes the likes of a REMF like you more trustworthy than
a congressional report? You can bring Senator H-i-l-a-r-y Clinton into
it if you want to but she wasn't on the committee at the time. Hell,
she wasn't even a senator. This isn't more of your sterling grasp of
time, is it?

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
[email] wrote:

That's okay. You apparently have a lot of time to 'waste.' If listening
to commonsense and logic backed up by facts can be considered a waste.

S. Olson


subject: Re: No Credibility!

text:
Steve

  I've got all the time in the world to respond your way on comments,
Get used to it, so!

  You have No Logic, Just troll tactics which are funny!

                RON


subject: Health and Wellness

text:
I found a health and wellness site with all natural products.  The
one thing I thought was pretty neat about it was there is a link you
can click on and it allows you to send questions to the doctor that
creates the products.  I signed up for their newsletter, which gives
tips and articles from the doctor's book and discounts on the
products.  You
should check it out.  The site is www.healthy1solutions.com


author: Paul T. Holland

subject: an apology

text:
Dear Mr. Holland,

I am writing to express an apology for the posting to your newsgroup.  I
have recently hired a young sales rep to help promulgate my business.
Unfortunately, I was unaware of the practices she was employing.  I have
attempted to contact google newsgroup to remove ALL posting by
[email].  I apologize for the misunderstanding and any
inconvenience this my have imposed upon you.

Respectfully yours,

Roy Stanton

"R.w." wrote:


subject: Just another lying spammer

text:
So, R.w. <[email]> would have us believe that s/he 'found'
this site?

Why then, do you suppose, is it that [email] is listed as the
administrative contact for the site?

R.w. follows rule #1 of spammers, and lies; too bad spammy - you're
busted.

Complaints for commercial posting in violation of misc.health.arthritis
usenet charter to:

[email]
[email]
[email]
[email]

And since he posted off of 24.170.171.105 which is earthlink, let's add:

[email]

Registrant:
    Stanton & Bradley  Co (JZSSLUBYOD)
       1966 Staunton Avenue
       Winter Park, FL 32789
       US

       Domain Name: HEALTHY1SOLUTIONS.COM

       Administrative Contact:
          Stanton & Bradley  Co  (LHRBHIQMKO)
[email]
          1966 Staunton Avenue
          Winter Park, FL 32789
          US
          407-622-7564
       Technical Contact:
          VeriSign, Inc.  (HOST-ORG)
[email]
          21355 Ridgetop Circle
          Dulles, VA 20166
          US
          1-888-642-9675 fax: 123 123 1234

       Record expires on 22-Jul-2005.
       Record created on 22-Jul-2002.
       Database last updated on 4-Jun-2003 18:49:20 EDT.

       Domain servers in listed order:

       WWW.TCEMALL.COM              209.208.11.132
       DNS2.TCEMALL.COM             209.208.11.131

"R.w." wrote:


author: mstary

subject: FS: 25Mhz LC040 CPU -> $35

text:
as the subject indecates.
if interested, e-mail or call....$35 obo

Martin
312 226 8387


author: NOONE

subject: Courses under TN-1 visa

text:
Hi, I am on a TN-1 visa (from Canada) in the US working with a US employer.
The employer, which is sponsoring me for H1B visa (won't be available until
October although they have sent in the paperwork already) wants to send me
to take courses at local schools.

Can I do so, and should I apply to these courses as an international
student?

THANKS!!!


author: Bob

subject: Re: Courses under TN-1 visa

text:
I could be wrong here, but don't think you could go study on the H1B,
would need student visa for that, and as a non-resident or citizen,
you'll be an international student if you do study here.


author: roger

subject: Re: Courses under TN-1 visa

text:
Yes, it's possible to study under TN.  When I got approved for my TN I
asked the immigration officer if I can study. He said yes.


author: NC Penguin

subject: Re: Courses under TN-1 visa

text:
Why don't you look on the USCIS website to read up about the
restrictions on a TN-1 visa?

NC Penguin


subject: Re: Courses under TN-1 visa

text:
Hi I was reading somewhere else in this group (a message ~2 years ago) that
part time studies could be allowed for a TN- or H1B visa holder.

Can somebody confirm?

THANKS!!!!

"Bob" <member27413@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:34$300664$2337499$[email]...


author: Joe Feise

subject: Re: Courses under TN-1 visa

text:
NOONE wrote on 05/03/05 21:15:

You can study with an H1, provided that you also continue to comply with
the H1 conditions. This pretty much limits it to halftime study.
I have no idea about TN, but I think it is possible as well.

-Joe


author: kylee

subject: 4 year old wetting pants.

text:
I am at my total wits end. So please for giveme if this rambles a bit.  My
dd is 4 years old and has taken to wetting her pants.. She had quite a while
where we were doing GREAT we were even having quite a few dry nights .. so
much that she was wearing panties to bed rather than training pants.
But recently things have taken a drastic change. I have a feeling it's
related to dh going out to sea and ds being born in Dec. I have tried giving
her more attention, time outs you, loss of prilidges, treating her for
going,  you name it.. nothing works it's almost like she doesn't care. I
don't know what else to do.

Example. SHe would go with me to all my pre natal appointments, One in
particular she wet herself on the way there. I changed her, and went in. As
we were waiting to be called she said she had to go, so we went to the
bathroom an she went. Then while we are in with the doctor, she doesn't
bother even saying anything and proceeds to wet her pants not even 20 mins
after I had just taken her to the bathroom ..

I have had to take to putting her in pull ups when we go run errands or else
I would have to take numerous changes of clothes; which to her seems to be
permission just to go ahead and pee since she doesn't feel it. Not that we
pants seems to bother her too much either.

I have even caught her intentionally pulling down her pants and going on the
floor just so she wouldn't get in trouble for getting her pants wet. So I
know she knows when she has to go. Granted our only bathroom is upstairs but
this is gettiing rediculous.

I have no idea what to do. PLEASE HELP!!

Kylee


author: dragonlady

subject: Re: 4 year old wetting pants.

text:
In article <unL3c.24508$[email]>,
 "kylee" <[email]> wrote:

How about putting her back in diapers, and asking her to let you know
when she's ready to wear panties again?  Not in a punative or
humiliating way, but just acknowledging that, for whatever reason, she's
decided that using a toilet is too much work right now.  Having a 4 yo
in diapers is not unheard of.

Yes, this is undoubtedly related to the current turmoil in her life.

meh


author: Hillary Israeli

subject: Re: 4 year old wetting pants.

text:
In <unL3c.24508$[email]>,
kylee <[email]> wrote:

*I have even caught her intentionally pulling down her pants and going on the
*floor just so she wouldn't get in trouble for getting her pants wet. So I
*know she knows when she has to go. Granted our only bathroom is upstairs but
*this is gettiing rediculous.

I recall my pediatrician suggesting that if my son were potty trained by
the time our daughter was born, he might revert to having lots of
accidents, or even wanting diapers, when she was born. I wonder if your
daughter is starting to want to be your baby again, diapers and all? Of
course, I am assuming your pediatrician has given you a clean bill of
physical health already.