text:
Bawana wrote:

Clinton started that one with the simultaneous million line phone Tap
system.  But then FDR did worse during WWII.... There needs to be a
sunset clause on Bush or Clinton when anyone votes to pass legislation
like that.

I'm for freedom so you won't catch me defending Congress or Bush or
Clinton on this. You still don't get it do you?  Actually I would like
to see a Sunset Amendment put in the bill of rights for all laws. This
would cause the law makers to spend time voting to reinstate the needed
laws and no time to pas stupid new laws.

Send me your car title and I'll burn yours in the fire with mine.


author: Bill Ward

subject: Re: Is Global Warming the Global Jonestown?

text:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:49:24 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

You have a strange, content-free, way of attempting to rebut evidence.
Has it ever convinced anyone?


author: Kenny McCormack

text:
In article <[email]>,
Wexford  <[email]> wrote:
...

Well, for one thing, people who bought into oil futures in the $90s,
expecting them to go above and stay above $100.  Those people will
suffer greatly if oil becomes less essential to life as we know it.

You wouldn't want that on your conscience, would you?


author: Talk-n-Dog

text:
Wexford wrote:

(1)If Al Gore is involved it's likely a lie, as he and Bill Clinton are
closer than you may think.

(2)Liberals can't understand freedom. It's a mental block.

(3)I am suppose to have the freedoms and rights to do what doesn't
interfere with anyone else's freedoms and rights. (While my fist and
your face can occupy the same space.... it would be wrong to allow that
to happen at the same time.)


text:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:38:08 -0800, Wexford wrote:

If you read the link, you'll see eugenics was pretty much mainstream.  The
science was arguably somewhat better based than the AGW hypothesis, but
the "solution" was just as inhumane.


text:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:24:50 -0800, Bawana wrote:

My point, exactly.


text:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:10:13 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

And that's what they'll be saying about AGW in a few years.


author: kT

text:
Thomas wrote:

You are an obvious science illiterate and usenet nutjob.

But, a guy's got to make a living, and it's easy work, isn't it.


author: Cary Kittrell

text:
In article <[email]> Thomas <[email]> writes:

Still is.  I don't know of anyone who is against genetic counseling
of couples who have some probability of producing kids with
genetic defects.  Think Tay-Sachs.

Forced eugenics, on the other hand, is a political and
social decision, and has nothing more to do with
scientific consensus than the use of chlorine gas
in WWI implied the support of all chemists.

-- cary


text:
Thomas wrote:

And what fundamental thermodynamical and quantum mechanical truths was
this so called 'theory' based upon? Show us the physics, asshole.


text:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:19:06 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

That's truer than you realize.  Here's a reference to the eugenics
movement. There were enough followers to lead to a lot of grief in the
30's and 40's.

http://www.assumption.edu/ahc/1920s/Eugenics/default.html

I see certain similarities to believers in the current AGW movement.  The
"science" behind eugenics was also thought to be settled, but not for long.


author: Tom Gardner (nospam

text:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation" <[email]>
wrote in message
news:[email]...

Oh, brother!  Don't forget, I dismiss your arrogant, sophomoric opinions as
easily as you dismiss my insightful, benevolent wisdom.


author: Tom Gardner (spamless

text:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation" <[email]> wrote
in message
news:[email]...

You take yourself much too seriously. Sing a few choruses of Kumbaya and you'll
feel better!


text:
"Jayaprakash" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

They AREN'T working to protect the environment!  I've done more for the
environment than 99% of the AGW folks and I can PROVE it!  Get you head out of
the sand and see the scam.


text:
Budikka666 wrote:

They both have the personality and appeal of a corps.


text:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation" <[email]> wrote
in message
news:[email]...
On Jan 29, 9:24 pm, "Tom Gardner" <tom(spamless)@ohiobrush.com>
wrote:"Na, I don't buy into the leader du jour like the AGW folks.
It's OK, you guys need a hobby...even if it is world conquest."

Interesting, actually it appears you do, its ok though, people like
you typically and predictably find it necessary to make weak attempts
at insults as you have here, no problem for they are your words and
simply reflect your antagonistic desires....

Then quit trying to grab money and power!  All the AGW folks do is detract from
fighting REAL pollution and REAL energy problems.  Take the "WE ARE GOING TO
COLLAPSE EVERY ECONOMY AND MAKE YOU ALL LIVE IN CAVES!" out of your rant and
people would be less antagonized.


author: Bawana

text:
On Jan 31, 11:07 pm, DanielSan <[email]> wrote:

I have a solution for you, little tardboy:
Go cry to yo' momma,
"Mommy, mommy, da mean man only replied to PART of my retarded
retort!"

That won't change the fact that you make no sense, tard.
Now,go vote demonkrap with the rest of your "lower intellectual
ability" crowd.
I'd never vote demonkrap.


text:
On Feb 1, 11:54 am, DanielSan <[email]> wrote:

That won't change the fact that you make no sense, tard.
Now,go vote demonkrap with the rest of your "lower intellectual
ability" crowd.
I'd never vote demonkrap.


text:
On Feb 1, 12:54 pm, DanielSan <[email]> wrote:

I understand just fine, you left-turd-cult- malignant-never had an
original thought in your whole pathetic life- narcissist retard.
Now, bark like a dog!
I never vote demonkrap.

Dazzle us with another "child" lamer, fucktard.
I'm sure some of your peer group, the "lower intellectual ability"
crowd and assorted gorons, will giggle.


text:
On Jan 31, 1:02 pm, DanielSan <[email]> wrote:

Nuh, I'd never vote demonkrap.


text:
On Jan 31, 9:57 pm, DanielSan <[email]> wrote:

I replied to your retarded retort, shit for brains.
You make no sense, tard.


author: Wexford

text:
On Jan 30, 8:54 pm, [email] (Cary Kittrell) wrote:

?????

Genetic counseling isn't Eugenics. Warning individuals about the
possibility of Tay-Sachs, or any of a hundred other potential
hereditary disorders, is simply practicing good medicine. Eugenics is
a crackpot movement that fosters improvement of the human race through
selective breeding.

It's a political and social delusion. Even in its heyday, thoughtful
scientists opposed Eugenics (even in Hitler's Germany) with the
pragmatic argument that restricting the reproduction of the mentally
retarded might create more social problems than it solves. Without
people of lower intellectual ability there would be no one to do the
necessary dirty jobs that keep a city running or a farming community
viable.


text:
On Jan 31, 11:45 am, Wexford <[email]> wrote:

Or to vote demonkrap.


text:
On Jan 31, 12:33 pm, DanielSan <[email]> wrote:

Nuh, I'd never vote demonkrap.


author: DanielSan

text:
Thomas said the following on 1/29/2008 4:25 PM:

Computers are also science.  Let's get rid of them.


text:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation" <[email]>
wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Jan 29, 7:53 am, Thomas <[email]> wrote:" I watched a BBC
documentary on Jim Jones"

Strike a nerve?


text:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation" <[email]> wrote
in message
news:[email]...
On Jan 29, 8:46 am, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:

na, how about you, are you missing your previous leader jim jones so
bad you need to replace him?

Na, I don't buy into the leader du jour like the AGW folks.  It's OK, you guys
need a hobby...even if it is world conquest.


author: Rob

text:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation" <[email]>
wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Jan 29, 8:46 am, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:

na, how about you, are you missing your previous leader jim jones so
bad you need to replace him?
=================

He does not need too. Al Gore has taken over for the  GW k00ks.


text:
Talk-n-Dog said the following on 1/31/2008 9:13 AM:

Clinton Derangement Syndrome?

Err, no.  Liberals understand freedom.

You liberal...


text:
Bawana said the following on 2/1/2008 6:48 AM:

Childish moron.

How old are you?


text:
Bawana said the following on 2/1/2008 9:40 AM:

If you grew up, you'd understand it.

I don't vote "demonkrap".


text:
Bawana said the following on 1/31/2008 4:13 PM:

So, can't reply to the full text and must comment out-of-context and
must, therefore, cowardly snip out the things you can't respond to?

How unsurprising.


text:
Bawana said the following on 1/31/2008 7:37 PM:

No, you replied to PART of my retort.  Your "demonkrap" childishness
doesn't fly with me.  Nor does "retarded" as an insult, "shit for
brains" or "tard" (as below).

Oh, do grow up.  Your Democratic Derangement Syndrome is infantile and
has no place in an adult discussion.

..."demonkrap"...really.  How old are you?


text:
Bawana said the following on 1/31/2008 9:26 AM:

Trying to horn in on the "lower intellectual ability" crowd there, Bawana?


text:
Bawana said the following on 1/31/2008 9:55 AM:

You're still trying to horn in on the "lower intellectual ability"
crowd, though, with your childishness.  Do grow up and try to shed your
DDS in your future posts; it makes you look idiotic.


author: Rich

text:
DanielSan wrote:

No, they're technology.

You first.

Cheers,

Rich


text:
Rich said the following on 1/29/2008 9:40 PM:

So is eugenics.

No way!  I love my computer.


text:
Rich said the following on 1/30/2008 7:01 AM:

Well, I figured if someone can smear with eugenics, I can smear right back.

Nope.  Not my idea to get rid of technology or science.  It was whomever
linked eugenics to GW (and, by extension, the fight against it).


author: EHeppler

subject: Latest abstracts

text:
Other Formats:
Links:

 Order this document

Radiology 1999 Sep;212(3):763-9

Motor neuron diseases: comparison of single-voxel proton MR spectroscopy of the
motor cortex with MR imaging of the brain.

Chan S, Shungu DC, Douglas-Akinwande A, Lange DJ, Rowland LP
Department of Radiology, Neurological Institute of New York, Columbia
University, NY 10032, USA.

[Medline record in process]

PURPOSE: To evaluate single-voxel proton magnetic resonance (MR) spectroscopy
in detection of abnormality of the upper motor neuron in patients with motor
neuron diseases. MATERIALS AND METHODS: In 43 of 50 patients with motor neuron
disease and 14 of 14 control subjects, matching sets of MR spectra were
obtained in the left and right motor cortex. The ratio of N-acetylaspartate
(NAA) to creatine (Cr) was derived from peak area measurements. Mean ratios
were calculated for control subjects and several patient groups, including
patients with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) or primary lateral sclerosis
(PLS). MR images were evaluated for corticospinal tract hyperintensity and
central sulcus dilatation. RESULTS: Mean NAA/Cr values were significantly
different between control subjects and the ALS or PLS groups (P < .05). With an
optimal cutoff of 2.5, NAA/Cr values were abnormal in 15 (79%) of 19 patients
with ALS, 12 (67%) of 18 patients with PLS, and one (7%) of 14 control
subjects. Corticospinal tract hyperintensity, central sulcus enlargement, or
both were found in 43% of the ALS group, 24% of the PLS group, and 7% of the
control group. CONCLUSION: NAA/Cr values determined at single-voxel proton MR
spectroscopy are more sensitive than are standard findings at MR imaging in the
detection of upper motor neuron disease.

PMID: 10478245, UI: 99407683

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Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1999 Sep;51(3):327-332

Splanchnic exchange of insulin-like growth factor binding protein-1 (IGFBP-1),
IGF-I and acid-labile subunit (ALS) during normo- and hyper-insulinaemia in
healthy subjects.

Fernqvist-Forbes E, Ekberg K, Lindgren BF, Brismar K
Departments of Endocrinology and Diabetology.

[Record supplied by publisher]

OBJECTIVE: The main source of circulating IGF-I, insulin like growth factor
binding protein-1 (IGFBP-1) and acid-labile subunit (ALS) is considered to be
the liver, but their production rates have not been determined in healthy
individuals. Thus, the splanchnic exchange of IGFBP-1, IGF-I, ALS and glucose
were studied. STUDY DESIGN: In five overnight fasting healthy, normal weight
men (mean age 29 +/- 1 years) blood samples were taken from a hepatic vein, a
brachial artery and a peripheral vein in the basal state and during 3 h i.v.
infusion of insulin (1.0 mU/kg/min). Normoglycaemia was maintained with a
variable glucose infusion and splanchnic blood flow was determined using a
constant rate indicator infusion technique. RESULTS: The basal net splanchnic
glucose output amounted 0.96 +/- 0.09 mmol/min and the splanchnic production of
IGFBP-1 was 7 +/- 2 mug/min. There was a net splanchnic uptake of IGF-I (7 +/-
2 mug/min) in the basal state, while no significant splanchnic exchange of ALS
was found. During the insulin infusion, insulin concentration increased from 78
+/- 12 to 660 +/- 30 pmol/l, resulting in a complete inhibition of splanchnic
glucose production after 40 min of infusion. Splanchnic IGFBP-1 production rose
initially to 13 +/- 4 mug/min (P < 0.05) and then gradually decreased and was
completely inhibited at 180 min (P < 0.05). Insulin infusion influenced neither
ALS nor IGF-I splanchnic exchange. CONCLUSION: Splanchnic production of IGFBP-1
in the basal state was demonstrated and it is completely inhibited after 180
min of hyperinsulinaemia. In contrast to what is generally held, there was no
net splanchnic production of IGF-I in the basal state or during insulin
stimulation.

PMID: 10469012

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Muscle Nerve 1999 Sep;22(9):1265-70

Comparison of maximal voluntary isometric contraction and Drachman's hand-held
dynamometry in evaluating patients with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.

Beck M, Giess R, Wurffel W, Magnus T, Ochs G, Toyka KV
Department of Neurology, Julius-Maximilians-University Wuerzburg,
Josef-Schneider Strasse 11, D-97080 Wuerzburg, Germany.

[Medline record in process]

Maximal voluntary isometric contraction (MVIC) is a standard tool for
assessment of muscle strength in treatment trials for amyotrophic lateral
sclerosis (ALS). There is need for more practical bedside techniques especially
for severely disabled patients. Hand-held dynamometry (HH-Dyn) is an
inexpensive and easy-to-handle device. MVIC was measured in five proximal
muscle groups bilaterally and compared with HH-Dyn in 43 ALS patients. After a
training period we found good intrarater correlation for HH-Dyn (r = 0.99),
with a low coefficient of variation. Measurements tended to become more
accurate after repeated testing due to practice effects in examiners and
patients. Overall correlation between HH-Dyn and MVIC was good [r = 0.85 (P <
0.01)]. Strength-range-specific analysis showed a significant linear
correlation up to 20 kg (44 lbs.) [r = 0.57 (P < 0.01)]. However, we found a
tendency to underestimate muscle strength above 10 kg by HH-Dyn as compared
with MVIC, but this became meaningful only above a force of 20 kg. HH-Dyn
provides a strength estimate with a precision close to MVIC in weak muscle
groups (MRC grade 4). With standardization and appropriate training, HH-Dyn is
a useful bedside test, providing an alternative to MVIC for follow-up
assessment in ALS. Copyright 1999 John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

PMID: 10454724, UI: 99384327

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J Comp Neurol 1999 Sep 20;412(2):373-80

Peripheral axotomy slows motoneuron degeneration in a transgenic mouse line
expressing mutant SOD1 G93A.

Kong J, Xu Z
Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Toxicology, University of
Massachusetts Medical School, Worcester, Massachusetts 01655, USA.

[Medline record in process]

Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is a fatal neurodegenerative disorder that
involves motoneuron degeneration, paralysis, and death. Mutations in Cu, Zn
superoxide dismutase (SOD1) are one cause of this disease. It has been a puzzle
as to why mutations in SOD1, an enzyme expressed in many neuronal types,
selectively kill motoneurons. To begin to explore the factors that determine
this selectivity, we carried out peripheral axotomy in mice expressing a mutant
SOD1 (G93A mice) and controls (nontransgenic mice and mice expressing wild-type
human SOD1). Axotomy in controls induced a predicted axonal atrophy and a small
degree of axon loss. The axonal atrophy led to an increase in the number of
small axons and a decrease in the number of large axons. In contrast to the
controls, axotomy in G93A mice reduced the extent of axon degeneration at the
end stage of the disease, leading to an increase in the number of surviving
motor axons. Interestingly, all of the increased surviving axons were in the
axon group with diameters smaller than 4.5 &mgr;m. This result suggests an
apparent threshold of vulnerability that is correlated with axon size.
Copyright 1999 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 10441762, UI: 99373354

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author: Patricia Harrison

subject: Re: Latest abstracts

text:
Hate to be dense, but exactly what does this mean?
Pat

EHeppler wrote:


subject: Re: Latest abstracts

text:
These are abstracts (short introductions) to the most recent medical journal
articles that have been written and published.  I try to scan them often seeing
if there is something somewhere that is new and interesting.  Mostly, I post
them and someone else will let me know if they are of REAL interestl, I am no
scientist so a lot of it goes over my head.  But... I have dealt long enough in
ALS that some of it sticks and I get the gist.
Hope that clears it up
Edie


author: Kirby M. Wilson

subject: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
"Gunner" <[email]> wrote in message news:@4ax.com...

 <[email]> apparently believes in all the wacky internet
sites (even the inter-galactic alien abductions)


author: Nelson

subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
tg wrote:

How would I know?   The space aliens don't share their experimental
sampling results with earth hominids.


subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
Eeyore wrote:

No coincidence.  Most UFO sightings are in the USA because the aliens
are interested in understanding American democratic values for possible
use on their home planet.  They regularly read these newsgroup posts so
if you are interested -


author: Eeyore

subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
Nelson wrote:

LOL.

You mean like invading other countries to spread 'democracy' ?

Excellent !

Graham


subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
Kirby M. Wilson wrote:

FYI   Alien abductions are real.  Do you believe?  I know because the
anal probe testing was not pleasant. Space alien technology is vastly
superior to earth based science so be careful out there.       This is
nothing to laugh about.


subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
"Kirby M. Wilson" wrote:

I'll bet he wears a tin-foil hat too.

Graham


author: tg

subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
"Nelson" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...

ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! hilarious.
regarding the anal probe, did they find anything?


subject: Re: R: Nazis One, Truth Zero.

text:
Nelson wrote:

But seemingly exist only in the USA which just happens to the home of the
conspiracy nut too !

Coincidence ? Maybe but I suspect not.

Graham


author: Starlord

subject: Don't look good for tonight

text:
I had planed on setting up up at the corner tonight by 7:30, but there's
winds blowing up to 60mph at times, and unless those winds die down, home
I'll stay.


subject: Re: Don't look good for tonight

text:
Odd thing going on now, we've got winds blowing thowards the west, these are
the Hot,Dry winds, BUT the cloud of smoke from the Day Fire which is to the
west of me, it going up and coming in towards the East now, which means
we'll get the edge of it too.


author: Mike Simmons

subject: Re: Don't look good for tonight

text:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:44:32 -0700, Starlord wrote:

I noticed the same thing in the Santa Clarita Valley today, Dennis.  Winds
were blowing from the northeast but Day Fire smoke was blowing *to* the
northeast.  From west of the San Fernando Valley I could see a plume of
smoker rising from the Day Fire and going west, as expected, with the smoke
above it going east.  Very, very weird.

While I was in the Santa Clarita Valley for a few hours two more small
fires started there.

Mike Simmons


subject: Re: Don't look good for tonight

text:
I've gone out about once an hour or so and for the most part the AV area has
been overcast with the smoke, it had crossed this area and was aimed right
at Palm Springs from the look of it. Going to watch the neaer time machine
movie to see how it stacks up to the older 1950's one.


author: Jack Cheeseman

subject: questions about Physician's Choice Super Prostate Formula

text:
This supplement is produced by Physician's Choice, Inc. and I have a couple
of questions:

1)  Can this be taken by type 2 diabetics who are on both inuslin and pills?

2)  Can it cause dizziness if taken by a person described in #1?

Thank you, in advance, for your response.  A diabetic friend has been taking
this supplement for a couple weeks and is now experiencing dizziness.  I'd
like to try to find out whether or not this medicine could be causing it.  I
tried to contact the company and have not yet received a response.

Thanks again,
Jack


author: an

subject: Letterman

text:
So in the groups collective opinion, was it good or bad that the crew of
Alpha and STS 112 were seen on Letterman tonight, answering the questions:

"The Top 10 things never before heard in space" ?

Personally, I thought some of them were pretty damn funny, the Russians
having an especially droll way of reading silly lines. But in the back of my
mind, I had to wonder, "Is this really a GOOD thing?" It's certainly the
first time I've noticed participants on a NASA mission being asked to
contribute bits for a comedy show. Can anyone recall anything as remotely
non-serious?


author: Patrick Patriarca

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
We want the "people" to be comfortable with space travel?// What better way
than to include on Letterman's Top 10....


author: richard schumacher

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
an wrote:

Sure, lots!  Most recently, those SLI proposals were hilarious.


author: Matthew F Funke

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
an <[email]> wrote:

     How about this picture of the starboard rear strut on the Shuttle
Carrier Aircraft (a specially-outfitted 747 designed to ferry the
shuttle about)?:

<http://space.balettie.com/SpacePix/PlaceOrbiterHere.jpg>

If you can't read it, it says, "PLACE ORBITER HERE ... BLACK SIDE DOWN".


author: David M. Palmer

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <K%%z9.8192$[email]>, an
<[email]> wrote:

This:
http://cartalk.cars.com/Radio/Misc/Audio/RA/shuttle2.ram

if you don't have realAudio
http://cartalk.cars.com/About/Space/


author: Peter Stickney

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <[email]>,
	Kevin Willoughby <[email]> writes:

"No handball playing in this area"


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In <3dd10290$[email]>, on 11/12/02
   at 01:31 PM, "William Gordon" <[email]> said:


author: Kevin Willoughby

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
an said:

Wally and Tom playing Jingle Bells just before deorbiting their Gemini.

Al playing golf on the moon.

Spacecraft named Spider, Charlie Brown, and Gumdrop.

Geno and Dr. Rock singing "I was strolling on the Moon one day, in the
merry merry month of December..."

"Hey Skipper, want a corned beef sandwich?"


author: Malcolm Street

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
an wrote:

I didn't see the show but I think it's a *great* thing.  More integration of
astronauts with everyday life, showing them as people just like the rest of
us rather than Olympian gods and also popping up in a context that has
nothing to do with space nerds.

Malcolm


author: Jonathan Silverlight

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In message <[email]>, Kevin Willoughby
<[email]> writes

"NO HANDBALL PLAYING IN THIS AREA". Excuse caps, but that's how it's
printed. And didn't Charlie Brown and Snoopy make sense at the time?
IIRC, they were part of the "safety culture".


author: MattWriter

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Given the indefinite slip for the Endeavor mission, those lines about pizza
delivery and beef jerky might not be funny too much longer.

Matt Bille
([email])
OPINIONS IN ALL POSTS ARE SOLELY THOSE OF THE AUTHOR


author: Peter Smith

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
an <[email]> wrote...
of
questions:
Russians
of my
the
remotely

Tonight we had Andy Thomas appear on 'Rove' a late night chat-show in
Australia.  He was asked what weightlessness was like, what Mir was
like, how it felt to do an EVA - oh and the inevitable one on number
twos in space...

No moon-hoax though, thank goodness!  :)

... and no scripted 'funny lines' either.  Thank goodness for Australian
TV!

- Peter


author: William Gordon

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"an" <[email]> wrote in message
news:K%%z9.8192$[email]...

For the less enlightened, what were they?

Regards....
William


author: Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 05:06:50 GMT, "an" <[email]> wrote:

You mean stuff like throwing out the first pitch at the World Series games (the
last couple of years), being a guest on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno (John
Glenn, Steve Lindsey, and Curt Brown), presenting an honorary Oscar to George
Lucas (EXP-2 crew), throwing a Super Bowl football, or recording a bit for the
Jimmy Buffett concert in Houston (with Dan Bursch)?

Whatever makes the public go "hey, that's pretty cool"...


author: Mike Flugennock

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <K%%z9.8192$[email]>, "an"
<[email]> wrote:

Well, I can recall Al Shepard's imitation of Jose Jiminez being quite
noteworthy. Oh, and check out some of those NASA "unofficial" official
crew portraits, mostly of Gemini and early Apollo crews, involving rain
hats and spotlight shades and the holding of the little model Gemini craft
in unusual positions. I recall one especially good one with Scott, Conrad,
Armstong and another Gemini crewman who I can't recall right offhand,
which features Conrad doing a makeshift Napoleon imitation with the rain
hat turned sideways, and Armstrong wearing the lightshade -- and that same
damn' serene, cool, just-barely-cracking-a-smile expression he always
seems to have, which makes it even funnier.

I also had the same wonderings when I saw a bit on Letterman featuring
Buzz Aldrin in a sort of a prop Apollo EVA suit, at a shopping mall,
shaking hands with people and introducing himself with a simple "Hi, I'm
Buzz Aldrin", as Letterman's cameras recorded peoples' reactions. I
couldn't be sure at the time if Buzz had totally sailed over the edge and
was desperate to recapture some of that '69 glory, or if he'd become
totally at peace with himself and his life and could finally chill out and
enjoy some Apollo jokes at his own expense.


author: Chris Bennetts

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Peter Smith wrote:

Hmm, that sounds exactly like his interview with Francis Leach on Triple J
(Australia-wide youth/new/alternative radio station) this morning. It was a
good interview, Andy answered the questions very well and enthusiastically,
especially given that they're the same damn questions he answers every day
of his life... ;-)

--Chris


author: Roger Balettie

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Matthew F Funke" <[email]> wrote:

Yeah... I love that picture.  :)

I took that one when Columbia was on a stop-over at Ellington (near JSC)
during the ferry flight from California back to Florida in 1995.  I have a
few more... I just need to find them, scan them in, and update my site...
oh, yeah... and find the time to do all that.  <smirk>

Roger


author: Jorge R. Frank

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
[email] (Matthew F Funke) wrote in
news:ar07ml$5hn$[email]:

On p. 197 of Jenkins (3rd ed.) there's another picture (the other SCA,
perhaps?) with slightly different wording:

CAUTION PLACE OBITER[sic]
HERE BLACK SIDE DOWN
LEFTY LOOSY
RIGHTY TIGHTY


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Many thanks!  Brings some normality to the usually sadistic
and pornographic brand of "humor" in sci.space.history.

<[email]> wrote in message
news:MH7A9.739$[email]...


author: Mike Speegle

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
David M. Palmer wrote:

    What a treat!  I've heard of this and it was great to listen to.
Thanks.  ;-)


author: Tom of Bunyon

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Matthew F Funke" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ar07ml$5hn$[email]...

There's a sharper pic of that in the Dennis Jenkin's Space Shuttle book. It
also has the phrase (near the attach bolts) "Lefty Loosey Righy Tighty".


author: OM

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:58:02 GMT, [email] (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

...And then there's the non-verbal one - Storey Musgrave and the
hairbrush.

				OM


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Jonathan Silverlight said:

Snoopy, yes indeed. But Charlie Brown was always a loser, not even able
to kick a football, always being made a fool the same way, time after
time after time. Hardly a hero.


author: Cyberia

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/

      Top Ten Things Never Before Said In Space

      10. If we fly close enough to that satellite, we can get free movie
channels
      (Space station science officer Peggy Whitson)

      9. I've gotta go back -- I have jury duty
      (Mission specialist Dave Wolf)

      8. Hey, could someone open the airlock? The pizza guy is here
      (Mission specialist Piers Sellers)

      7. We're caught in the Death Star's tractor beam! Help us, Obi Wan
      (Space station commander Valery Korzun)

      6. Delaware, we have a problem
      (Space station pilot Pam Melory)

      5. Mission control -- any chance you can beam up some more jerky?
      (Space station flight engineer Sergei Treschev)

      4. We're testing the effects of zero gravity on lame comedy
      (Mission specialist Sandy Magnus)

      3. Blue station wagon, Minnesota plate HMZ-216, your lights are on
      (Space shuttle commander Jeff Ashby)

      2. Which one of you guys ate my powdered lamb shank?
      (Mission specialist Fyodor Yurchikhin)

      1. Run for your lives -- space monkeys!
      (Mission specialist Sandy Magnus)


author: Pat Flannery

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Kevin Willoughby wrote:

Yup, Lucy could lure him into it every single time...just like the
Russians can lure use into it every single time regarding the ISS...the
analogy may have been not only apropos, but prophetic. As near as I can
figure, my tax dollars are to be used to purchase Soyuz capsules for the
Russians to use to transport paying tourist's to the station....fuck the
tourists, fuck the Russians, and fuck the ISS.

Pat


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:35:44 GMT, "Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to
\"s\"" <wizardimp$[email]> wrote:

...You're forgetting the best one of all: Buzz Aldrin accompanying
Race Bannon, Homer Simpson, thousands of ants, and an Inanimate Carbon
Rod on a shuttle mission.

				OM


author: Greg D. Moore (Strider

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Rick C" <[email]> wrote in message
news:arddr0$hppmv$[email]...
like

Damn right.  Just because there's waste elsewhere doesn't mean we should
allow it in other palces.

As for your math, it's suspect.  My 2.5 year old son doesn't pay taxes.  Are
you paying his share of the $25?

Also, Pat is incorrect.  The current 2 Soyuz a year are being provided by
the Russians as part of their agreement.  We are NOT paying a dime for them.

The talk is of purchasing additional Soyuz.  In which case I'd agree with
Pat, I darn well expect that we get ALL the seats.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Rick C wrote:

And that's $25.00 dollars too much- I have a lot better things to do
with 25 bucks than help finance joy rides for millionaires- in fact, I
would find just about any use for the money better than that, pork
barrel or not- at least with pork barrel projects, somebody gets paid
for doing some work of some sort. And of course, how much of that Soyuz
procurement money is going to end up in he hands of the Russian mafia?
Can't I just take it to Vegas, and at least support good-old-fashioned
patriotic American organized crime? Maybe we should start a lottery to
finance NASA, with the winner getting a ride into space; at least that
way you could decide if you wanted to kick in a few bucks on the idea.

Pat


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] wrote:

And besides, he couldn't be in the posters for flight safety with Snoopy
as they couldn't find a helmet to fit him, not even a "Borman Special".


author: Rusted Shut

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:08:59 GMT, "steve podleski"
<[email]> wrote:

Agreed.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:05:46 -0500, "Tom of Bunyon"
<[email]> wrote:

...Or better yet, on "Star Trek: The Next Generation".

				OM


author: Gordon Davie

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
OM <om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Unless my news server missed it, nobody has mentioned John Glenn on
'Frasier'.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 04:07:25 -0600, OM
<om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too> pounded out:

That's one of my favorite Simpsons episodes!  Any episode where Barney
gets sober is pretty funny.

  -=ratz0fratzo=-
  _______________


author: JF Mezei

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:

Nop you wouldn't. The agreement with the international partners had the USA
supply the hab and escape pod(s). Under that agreement, the USA had a lion's
share of seats, but not all.

If, instead of building its own espape pod, the USA buys them off-the-shelf,
it wouldn't change the agreements and the USA would still be getting the same
percentage of seats.

However, where it would be interesting is that if I remember correctly, after
a certain assembly stage, the russian segment becomes "independantly crewed"
and the US segment then is crewed by the other international partners with
sharing of seats according to a pre-set formula that depends on how much a
contry contributes.

Now, if the USA buys off-the-shelf Soyuz to replace the CRV, would a Soyuz be
launchable without a russian commander aboard ? Or would they have to swap
crews on the russian/american soyuz ?


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:08:45 -0600, Pat Flannery <[email]>
wrote:

...Someone make sure Pat's got .policy removed from his newsgroups
list. He's starting to show signs of being contaminated :-)

				OM


author: pat

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2002 14:41:00 -0600, Rusted Shut <[email]>
wrote:

I'd rather have our pork go to a highway in west virgina which has a
5% chance i'll drive it then to an OSP which has a 0% chance i'll ride
in.


author: Rick C

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Pat Flannery" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Let's work out the math here.  250 million people in the US (roughly), and
(let's assume) $20 million per Soyuz (x2 annually).  Therefore, your share
comes out to $25/year.

Yes, what a waste of your hard-earned dollars.  You should write your
senator NOW and DEMAND that that $25 be spent on something more useful, like
(some other kind of) Congressional pork.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:05:42 +0000 (UTC), "Gordon Davie"
<[email]> wrote:

...Seeing as how one of the two things I loathed about being in TV was
having to edit "Cheers" promos every goddamn day, I missed this
because I'm adverse to watching "Cheers" spinoffs.

The other thing? "The Cosby Show". Bill's worst work, IMHO...

				OM


author: tuttle

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
-=ratz0fratzo=- <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...
Did you notice the shape of the spacecraft? It looks like a reusable
lifting body spaceplane on top of an expendable rocket. If O'Keefe has
its way, that is exactly what we will get. I guess matt groening can
see into the future :-)


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
OM wrote:

Actually, it IS on my list, but this one keeps me fairly busy all on
it's own.

Pat


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Michael Kent" <[email]> wrote

and
share

Oops.  At that rate, I'd be glad to pay Pat's share.  Nyah.


author: steve podleski

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Rick C" <[email]> wrote in > Let's work out the math here.
250 million people in the US (roughly), and
like

I rather have the pork go to our engineers/scientists than  Russian welfare
or their mafia.


author: Scott Lowther

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
pat wrote:

What are the chances you'll ride in a B-2 or Minuteman III? How about a
boomer sub?


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
So...we get complete say over who and what goes up on these Soyuz we are
buying? They are then our property, so shouldn't we?

Considering the amount of cost to put a pound into orbit, quite a
bit...also the tourist's weight could be used for extra cargo, and
that's a fair amount....what really torque's me here is this is going to
end up with the U.S. buying the Soyuz; and the Russians using them to
carry tourists to the station for a profit- in short, they have just
shifted the expense of their space tourism operation on to our
shoulders, and can just lay back and count the bucks rolling in- Lenin
said: "You can count upon the capitalist to sell you the rope you are
going to hang him with."- but should we buy it ourselves, and then hand
it to them free of charge? The only good thing that comes from NASA's
plans is that making the Shuttle into a cargo carrier means that a four
person max crew can all be put on the upper flight deck; and therefore
have ejection seats (finally)

Pat


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:

Ok, fair enough, hadn't thought of that. Then you are right, it becomes "interesting".

I can see two options:

USA buys Soyuz lock stock and barrel and pays to use training in Russia and
pays to use Baikonour. USA would then crew those soyuz.

USA pays Russia to supply escape pod capacity. Russia then ensures that there
is always a fresh Soyuz at the station for the USA crews. And Russia can do as
it wishes to launch the escape pods (russian crews, tourists etc). In the end,
because Russia would also get something out of it due to taxi crews, then
Russia would charge less than if the USA wanted full control over them.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:

Don't forget room and board for the space tourist once he's at the
station- but I was referring to the idea of purchasing Soyuz from the
Russians- we've already paid for one of "their" station modules, and
this is getting just plain asinine.

Pat


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" <[email]> wrote

Are

No, you are.  I said per person, not per taxpayer.  I'm busy paying my *own*
kids $25 on top of mine.  Still a drop in the bucket compared to, say, my
share of the defense budget.

them.

Heh--then what's your beef? :P

Sure.  I'm OK with that.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Pat Flannery" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Exactly.

and

You've given nothing to substantiate that.

Will never happen.


author: Michael Kent

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Pat Flannery wrote:

You're right -- it is.  $40 million / 280 million people (the population
of the U.S.) is $0.14 per person.  I hate to pick nits, but sheesh, an
error like that changes the whole flavor of the debate.

Mike


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:

Other than the past behavior of the Russians in this regard- once they
have us over the barrel, they will write the rules, and unless NASA
finally develops some testicular fortitude, and tells them: "Okay, screw
it....we're abandoning the whole station, and letting it  burn up on
reentry!", they will be able to do whatever they want..... in the
knowledge that all the money that the station is costing America is
going into the pockets of the station building contractors and support
contractors, from whence some of it re-emerges as campaign contributions
to Congressmen....they completely understand how our political system
works in this regard, and can manipulate it to their own ends with ease.
We will bitch and howl...and then we'll fold.

Pat


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Pat Flannery" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Are
them.

Why is it getting asinine?  We need a CRV.  They can provide one.  We buy
it.  Not a big deal.

And one of "their" modules is still ours, despite what some will claim.

As for room and board, I'd expect that the Soyuz brings their own food and
water.  Even if not, how much can you eat in a week or so?


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"JF Mezei" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
with
USA
lion's

No, I believe the USA has a share of the CREW, not the seats.  There's a
difference.  Bringing up a 3rd and 4th Soyuz does not mean the partners are
flying up on them.  It's very likely they'd still fly on the shuttle.  So
any extra seats we'd determine the use of.

off-the-shelf,
same
after
crewed"
be


author: Henry Spencer

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <[email]>,
JF Mezei  <[email]> wrote:

As I understand it, the captain retains final authority over, and final
responsibility for, the ship's doings.  Harbor and seaway pilots
technically are advisors only.  Of course, a captain who countermands
their "advice" had better have a damn good reason or he'll be in big
trouble afterwards.

They fly the rocket, but have very limited say in what can be done to the
payload.

NASA would tell him to get lost regardless.  The shuttle is not for hire
for such purposes; it would sully the socialist purity of US spaceflight.
If you want simple "can do, but it'll cost ya" capitalism, you have to
talk to the Russians (!).

If someone who is paying in hard currency wants to train his own guy as
Soyuz commander, I'm sure the Russians would be happy to quote a price for
that.  Probably wouldn't be cheap.

The US would *probably* prefer to buy them outright, to resolve any debate
about who's in charge and who has contracted to do what.  Russia is really
in bad shape economically, and the more clear-cut the deal, the better.


author: Andre Lieven

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Michael Kent ([email]) writes:

I was rather wondering just when someone would catch that Enron class
accounting error.... <g>

Andre


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"JF Mezei" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
debate
really

Yes.  100%

One of the biggest problems in an emergency situation is chain of command.

the
its
the
case
building,
every X
allows

    When it comes to paying the bills, yes I do.

    When it comes to a fire, yes, I want some level of accountability.

would
as a
be

Ah, but that's different.

If Russia says, $65 Million and its yours and you can do anything you want
with it I expect us to control the seats.

If they say, $45 million and you can use it, but we reserve the right to fly
anyone of our choosing on the 3rd seat, I'm fine with that to.

Point is, as long as it's spelled out in the contract and we can choose what
we want, I'm fine.

I'm not comfortable with "it's $65 million and you can do anything you want
with it and control the seats" and then 3 months later "oh, btw, we're
commandering the 3rd seat."


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Henry Spencer wrote:

Is there really a need to define "who is in charge" for an escape pod ?

You get the russians to deliver a fresh soyuz every 6 months and take back the
old one. The value of the soyuz isn't the soyuz itself, but the fact that its
presence allows the americans to bring more people up to the station on the
shuttle. In fact, the soyuz would be irrelevant and remain unused by
americans, it is only there as a necessary evil on the station, just in case
it is needed.

If local regulations require you have X fire extinguishers in your building,
just in case there is a fire, do you really care if those are owned by
yourself or some maintenance company that maintains/cleans/tests them every X
years ? The fire extinguishers aren't of use to you, but its presence allows
you to conduct business in those offices.

Now, if the USA sees a need to use the taxi crew capabilities, then it would
have to pay more to russia and get control over taxi crews for the soyuz.
Would it be worth the extra costs ? And if the second soyuz is seen only as a
stop-gap measure until the USA has its own escape pod, then it might not be
worth the troupe of actually purchasing soyuz, when just outsourcing the
escape pod "service" would do the job.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <[email]>,
JF Mezei  <[email]> wrote:

Once it's up there, no.  The problem is ensuring that a steady supply of
them go up.

*Getting the Russians to do that* is the key problem, which can't be
solved by just wishing.  The simpler and clearer the deal, and the more
explicit the circumstances in which payment will *not* be made, the more
likely that it will actually happen as planned.  Any deal which says
"provide an adequate level of service" is just asking for problems and
regular renegotiation compared to one which says "we will buy one Soyuz
every six months, cash on delivery, and training for one Soyuz commander
every year, cash at the end of each month of training".

Provided I have confidence in that company doing a proper job, no.  The
whole problem is that there is good reason to have very limited confidence
in the Russians right now.  They generally mean well, but the sad state of
their economy often makes it very difficult for them to keep promises.
The free-enterprise way of handling this is precisely-defined obligations
and payment on delivery.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2002 19:27:18 -0800, Scott Lowther
<[email]> wrote:

...Only if it's not performing rapid surface testing off the coast of
Japan.

				OM


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Henry Spencer wrote:

If the russian government doesn't fund Energia, you can't expect Energia to
build Soyuz forever. They have already demonstrated an incredible ability to
build Soyuz with little or no funding. So given reliable funding from
whomever, is there any doubt that they could deliver ?

You may not trust the russian government to provide sufficient funding, but
should that really reflect on Energia's ability to deliver when it is funded ?


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Pat Flannery" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

JFM will no doubt disagree.


author: Jorge R. Frank

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
Pat Flannery <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

It depends on whether those Soyuzes are used for ISS crew rotations, or
merely taxi crews.

The composition of the ISS crews is set by the intergovernmental agreements
between the ISS partners. During the ISS 3-man phase, it alternates between
1 US/2 Russian and 2 US/1 Russian.  For 6-man, it's 3 Russian, 2 US, and
one rotating CSA/ESA/NASDA.  For 7-man, add a third US.

The taxi crews are whoever's paying for the flight. I expect that if the US
started paying for taxi flights (at the Russian asking price of $65
million/flight, as opposed to $20 million/seat), while keeping ISS crew
rotation on the shuttle, then the US would get all three seats on the taxi
flight.

Of course, the Iran Non-Proliferation Act makes this discussion moot for
now.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
In article <[email]>,
JF Mezei  <[email]> wrote:

I have minor concerns about whether, after a few years, they would decide
that the cash cow could be milked a bit harder.  More significantly, I
think a wealth of possible problems lurk in that "given" part -- it's not
as simple as just flying to Energia HQ and handing over a suitcase full of
twenties once a month -- and hassles would be minimized by a clear deal
with unambiguous rules.

*Given* reliable funding, I have no doubt that Energia *could* deliver.


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:37:46 -0500, "Rick C" <[email]>
wrote:

...JFM, JTM, who cares? They're both shitheads by any other initial.

				OM


author: Jon Berndt

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Jorge R. Frank" <[email]> wrote in message

between

3 Russian and 2 US for 6-crew? Why does this seem wrong to me? Didn't the
Russians some time ago barter away some of their time for something else (I
don't recall the specifics). Who's paying the lion's share of development
and construction costs??? Am I missing something?

Jon


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:

Not so simple.

When a ship enters the St-Lawrence River, a st-lawrence-seaway pilot boards
and takes over the controls of the ship, with the captain relegated to lesser
responsabilities. The seaway wants to ensure that some foreign captain who is
not familiar with the seaway won't the seaway's own facilities.

If AT&T hires the russians to launch one of its satellites, it may be a US
payload on top of the rocket, and AT&T may gain full control on the satellite
once in orbit, but aren't the russians in charge between the time the
satellite has been delivered to russia and the time it is in orbit ?

If Richard Branson wanted to charter a shuttle to go visit the ISS and paid
NASA 400 million so he could bring as many female gests as possible, would
NASA let him pilot the shuttle or would NASA insist that there be at least 2
NASA pilots to do all the serious work ?

Similarly, if the USA were to buy a Soyuz escape pod, would Russia insist that
at least one occupant be Russian as commander/pilot of the vehicle ? Or would
they decide it is acceptable to train an american to be commander ?

In the current situation, when there is a single russian crewmember aboard
Alpha, is he the sole person qualified to use the Soyuz as escape pod, or
would the 2 americans have received the same amount of training on how to
pilot a Soyuz ?

I could see a situation where the 3 russian crewmembers on Alpha would each be
fully qualified on Soyuz. In the event of an emergency, one of them would
pilot the "USA" soyuz down. This would remove the need to have the US segment
crewmembers to be fully qualified on the Soyuz.

In the end, it would all depend on negotiations. Would the USA prefer to buy
the soyuz ships outright and pay for their launch, operation, training of
crews etc, or would it find it much cheaper to simply contract with Russia for
the provision of a second escape pod, with Russia executing the contract as it
wishes, as long as there is always the sufficient escape pod capacity on
station ?

Would there be any advantage for the USA to actually purchase those ships ?


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Jon Berndt" <a@b.c> wrote in news:arf28b$30cl$[email]:

They bartered away the time, but not the seats. The deal was for cosmonauts
to use Russian crew time for US payloads.

The US, of course...

Not knowing the full details, I can only suspect naive negotiations by NASA
I hope this doesn't come as a shock to anyone :-). "Three seats for the
Russian segment, three for the US segment - sounds fair enough to us -
oops, forgot about the other partners that the US is splitting its share
with..."

I'm told this was one of the motivations behind the requirement that the US
CRV carry a crew of seven: to get back that third US seat. Of course, this
all occurred before the IGAs were signed.  The IGAs refer only to 3- and 7-
man crews.

Some good reading here:
ftp://ftp.hq.nasa.gov/pub/pao/reports/1998/


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"JF Mezei" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
are

You're splitting hairs.  My point (which was obvious from the discussion)
was that the Russians would not be in a position to sell the 3rd seat.

To use your St. Lawerence Seaway analogy, they can put the pilot on board
but not their own cargo.

ships ?


subject: Re: Letterman

text:
"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:

In an emergency, politics don't matter. In an emergency, they won't call up
houston and moscow and let the folks on earth strke a comittee to decide who
gets to drive the soyuz etc etc.

In an emergency, they'll board a soyuz, perhaps not even their assigned soyuz.
Once safe, then they'll contact moscow and advise of the situation.

I agree. And I would think that past experiences will have NASA include all
such clauses in any contract with Russia so that it is known in advance what
to expect.

Assuming that they send a modified PMA to the station to allow Soyuz to dock
to the US segment. Is it correct that they will require electrical power
converters to keep the soyuz alive during its 6 month stay ? And more
importantly, what about command and control of the soyuz ? Would the prefer to
plug the soyuz into the US segment MDMs and control it from houston, or would
they just bridge the buses so that the Soyuz would be controlled by the
russian segment and moscow ?

In my opinion, this is where the contract will become "interesting". If you
look at Zarya, it is russian operated and russian maintained. Would the USA
accept a similar arrangement for a US-purchase soyuz, or would they insist
that they control it if it is docked to the US segment ?


author: Paul Michael Brown

subject: Re: Letterman

text:
True enough. But in the absence of an emergency, politics DOES matter.

Interesting blurb in a recent issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology
Magazine. Seems that Congress has passed a statute banning federal
government agencies from doing business with any country that supports
Iran's efforts to develop long range missile technology. Apparently, that
includes Russia. So at some point in the future, this statute will
prohibit NASA from purchasing any more Soyuz vehicles from the Russians.
AWST reports that some creative people have suggested bartering
arrangements and third-party payment options, but these merely obfuscate
the core transaction -- which will soon violate the law.


author: Dr. Jai Maharaj

subject: Re: Jai Maharaj - VEDIC-HINDU MATHEMATICS

text:
I posted the following in 1993:

[ Subject: VEDIC MATH: Another Example
[ From: Jai Maharaj
[ Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
[ Date: 18 Apr 1993
[
[ Here is another example from the book Vedic Mathematics by
[ Jagadguru Swami Shri Bharati Krna Tirthaji Maharaja:
[
[ Extract the square root of 738915489
[  By the modern method:
[     (too cumbersome for me to type it here on-line)
[
[  By the Vedic one-line method:
[
[       4)738915489
[          35513674
[         ---------
[          27183.000 Result
[  using the rule - URDHWA-TIRYAK SOOTR:
[
[  By the same rule, extract the square root of 19.706412814
[     to 6 decimal places:
[                          8)19.706412814
[                              .351010151713
[                            ---------------
[                             4.439190....   Result

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

-----

About Bully-wannabe
"Myself, Mallu. Yourself?" (V. Bhattathiri) <[email]>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Keral KalluMallu (V. Bhattathiri) tries his best to be a bully --
telling others what and where to post, where to post and where not to
post, deliberately publishing lies about others and stalking them --
but fails miserably. He is really stressed out, and like his lap dog
Prem Thomas (who currently posts as "P. Rajah", and issues death
threats to people), is priming himself for conditions such as stroke
and heart disease.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


text:
Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:

National Award for Vedic Research Body

Express News Service
The New Indian Express
IBN Live
Monday, November 28, 2011

Hyderabad - The central government's coveted award for 'National
Innovation' was presented to Hyderabad based Srimaharshi Research
Institute of Vedic Technology (SRIVT).Though the central government's
department of science and technology (DST) and the Confederation of
Indian Industry (CII), who instituted the award to encourage
innovative technology, received 850 entries from all over India, only
five have been selected for the award for different innovations.
Among the five, SRIVT is the only institution from Andhra Pradesh.
Union minister of state for science technology Aswini Kumar has
presented the award recently to Dr AB Sudhakara Sastry of SRIVT in
the presence of noted technologist Sam Pitroda, CSIR directorgeneral
SK Brahmachary, head of NSCTCDST BK Singh for the "remarkable
innovation." SRIVT's innovation: SRIVT, which has been doing a
research on application of vedic sciences in modern living, has
developed nano materials through herbal route, basing on methodology
in vedic sciences. These nano particles have shown enhanced
properties when compared to their modern counterparts. Nano materials
of 100 per cent purity and size ranging from 550 nm and yield above
90 per cent have been produced. They have been checked for
applications in ship bottom coating which gave encouraging results
than conventional nano materials. The nano materials produced by
SRIVT are relatively of very low cost and are ecofriendly and
energyefficient in synthesising them.

More at:
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/national-award-for-vedic-research-body/206520-60-121.html

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

-----

About Bully-wannabe
"Myself, Mallu. Yourself?" (V. Bhattathiri) <[email]>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Keral KalluMallu (V. Bhattathiri) tries his best to be a bully --
telling others what and where to post, where to post and where not to
post, deliberately publishing lies about others and stalking them --
but fails miserably. He is really stressed out, and like his lap dog
Prem Thomas (who currently posts as "P. Rajah", and issues death
threats to people), is priming himself for conditions such as stroke
and heart disease.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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author: P. Rajah

text:
On 12/4/2011 5:55 PM, Jay Stevens Maharaj aka the jumpin' jackass
jyotishithead aka the abominable ass-troll-oger wrote:

Hey Jay:

            _
                                /'_/)
                             ,/_  /
                            /    /
                      /'_'/'   '/'__'7,
                   /'/    /    /    /" /_\
                  ('(    ' /'   ')
                   \      /
                    '\'              _.7'
                      \             (
                        \            \

--
Astrology: Fraud or Superstition?
http://www.seesharppress.com/astro.html

Ass-troll-ogers/jyotishitheads are the bane of humanity, and must be
cleansed or otherwise purified for the benefit of society.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/vhp-terrorism

"I agree with you that the plans of Hindus' must fail."
    Jay Stevens Maharaj, 11/14/2011, revealing his strategy of sullying
the image of Hindus

"Spit on Christianity so that it may be purified."
Jay Stevens Maharaj, 6/30/2006

"Let [Christians and Muslims] go after each other so that both
destructive philosophies and ways of life are
themselves destroyed."
Jay Stevens Maharaj, 10/09/2006


author: Patrick C.

subject: plastic lens coating problems

text:
After approx. 2 years the anti-reflective coating on my high-index plastic
lenses has either come off or somehow become degraded (I can't really tell
which, but it looks really bad). This is the 2nd pair of lenses, from the
same source (the local Costco), that this has happened to within 2 years,
even though I've been very careful with them (no rubbing to clean, etc.) Is
this the normal lifetime for this type of lens/coating? This is extremely
annoying, since these are also "progressive" type lenses, of the highest-
index type they had, so were not cheap.

Are there possibly any new types of high-index glass lenses that would be
be as "thin" as the highest-index plastic? My correction is in the -8.5
range, so I want the thinnest lenses I can get (don't care about weight
that much), but I've gotten to really hate these plastic lenses.

Thanks for any info.
Pat
[remove "xx" to reply by email]


subject: Re: plastic lens coating problems

text:
Depends on the coating and application of the coating more so than the lens
and or material.. 2 years on a non glass material is not to bad, especially if
you live in an area where you have a changing climate..does the coating have a
"crackled" look to it? Most of the coating compaies have a 1 year warrenty
because they can not control all the other factors..weather, opticians
experience, working conditions etc. etc.

  It is not new per se' but you can get a lot higher index in glass than in any
"plastic" version ..chances are you are not going to find it at Costco though..
but if you want to find it it is a Lantal glass lens ..1.80 or even a 1.9
index, if you are outside of the US it will be a lot easier to find, but if you
are in the U.S. you can find some opticals that will order it out side the U.S.
for you and you sign a ton of waivers.. call around and ask for the Zeiss 1.8
lantal and see if anyone is doing it in your area...beware of the safety factor
though..BTW glass is ALWAYS more stable in any of the coats.

Jeff


author: maf

subject: Re: plastic lens coating problems

text:
"Patrick C." <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns9306E7D559AE1tsr5634989BCrsgd452@204.127.202.16...
Is

It would help to know exactly what lens design (including manufacturer), the
lens material you have, and exactly what coating you have. AR coating is
inherently fragile, but if you are very careful it should hold up better
than yours has. But not all AR coatings are the same, and some of the lesser
quality types don't last long. The good news is some of the lesser quality
AR coatings can be stripped off and reapplied. Ask your optician about this.

Glass is more scratch resistant, but a poor quality AR coating on glass will
not be better than a poor quality coating on plastic. The glass lens will be
much heavier and somewhat dangerous in case of an accident. What you really
want is a high quality AR coating like Crizal, Sola UTMC, or other similar
coatings from the major lens makers.

Aside from the AR coating, there is also a difference between plastic lens
in terms of scratch resistance. For example Polycarbonate scratches more
easily than most other "plastic" lenses.


subject: Re: plastic lens coating problems

text:
Actually ALL AR's can be stripped and recoated except for Crizal and some
versions of lens materials (such as a poly) the stripper applied to get the
coating off shatters the hard coating on poly carbonate as well.

 Nope, just the opposite, GLASS is the BEST material for having an AR coat
applied to. The material is far more stable than any other ..even a lesser
quality AR will stand up better on a glass base material..even without the
bonding substrate we use now, if you went back 7 or 10 years when we were
having MAJOR problems with the AR stacks glass still worked great while in the
plastic version it was shattering left and right. :-) With the addition of
application of a substrate into the matrix and using a vacuum application of
the stack than it has improved a great deal, but any way you slice it if you
had a choice in quality glass always wins hands down because of the stability
of the material

   actually if he wanted to go crazy with money something like a 1.8 lantal
glass lens would NOT be much heavier than a 1.66 index lens, it is heavier in
gram weight but you have less total lens to get the same amount of power so it
off sets..but you are correct they are far higher rate of danger, the super
index glass lens 1.80 and 1.9 they do not heat temper, that is why you can not
get them in the U.S. but made outside of the U.S. borders and have to sign a
ton of waivers from the dispenser...

    Handle them with care is only half the process.. you need to make sure that
a UV dipped coat was not applied, and the bigger problem is air born fumes and
things like hair spray and caustic fumes is usually the culprit when coatings
shatter..

     A few more good coatings to add to the list is Zeiss, Reflection Free,
Icote, National lens coat, teflon ..thing to remember about Crizal is that if
something happens to the coat than you can not fix that but have to replace the
total lens..

Jeff


subject: Re: plastic lens coating problems

text:
"Specs31" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
will
the
of
you
stability
While I agree with your statement about stability of glass vs. plastic, from
his description I was assuming that his problem with AR coating was caused
by abrasion issues and airborne contamination, rather than shattering of the
coating due to the instability of the lens material. In that respect, a high
quality AR coating on plastic is better than a cheap AR coating on glass.
And of course (as I suggested) a high quality AR coating on plastic is
better than cheap AR coating on plastic.


author: a user

subject: Re: plastic lens coating problems

text:
In article <[email]>, Specs31 wrote:

oh, oh.    About the UV, why is that as I think my lenses have UV since it
was listed as "standard"; and any objections with "scratch resistent
coatings" as well?


subject: Re: plastic lens coating problems

text:
Actually all PAL's, or atleast 99.5% come with a factory UV, a BIG difference
between a factory UV through out the material and one that is dipped coated in
an optical...the "dip coated" is the one that is a no-no..so don't worry about
it in a PAL high index from the factory..
     The scratch coating is actually a GREAT thing when flashing an AR
coating.. it gives the bonding substrate more adhesion than if it was directly
applied to the lens surface...most AR companies will request ONLY hard coated
lens be supplied for them to apply AR to..

Jeff


author: D. Raca

subject: Springback Calculation in Tube Bending

text:
Is there any formula for springback calculation in tube bending?
I guess that there is either a theoretically derived formula or an
empirical expression that can be used for springback prediction.

Thanx,

[email]


author: Jon S.

subject: Re: Springback Calculation in Tube Bending

text:
On 19 Dec 2001 05:03:27 -0800, [email] (D. Raca) wrote:

Dang, that's a good one.  You might try sci.materials for a better
answer.

Off the top of my head (meaning, this is a big fat guess!), I'd have
to guess it's directly related to the calculations which tell you how
much stress can be applied before ductile deformation takes place.
That is, I'm sure one calculation in bending is a measure of how much
stress and what distance of movement is required until bending begins.
Then, after that point, linear movement and stress and deformation are
relatively equivalent.  When the stress is released, the initial
movement during the application of the stress would also be released.

That would be my best guess at an estimate.  (Linear and angular
movement should substitute above.)  The caveat would be that the
realignment of the metal matrix during the ductile deformation also
lowers the ductility.  So, there might be extra stored stress added
which would mean the return travel might be slightly higher once bent.
(Alternately, I could also envision a possibility where, like with
static versus sliding friction, some of the initial stress to get the
deformation to go actually gets adsorbed once deformation begins.)

Hope that isn't too vague or even misleading.

Jon


text:
[email] (Jon S.) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Thanx Jon.
I forgot to clarify that tubing I am writing about is steel tubing.
Steel grades are like AISI 1008, 1010, 1015, 1018 and similar.
You are absolutely right. Your reasoning is, I feel, based mainly on
facts from the field of Physical Metallurgy. However, formulas or
relations I am looking for would be, I guess, derived by tools of
Mechanical Metallurgy. Your statements explain a metal bending process
at its structural level. And your statements are correct. No doubt.
However, I would need something in form:

Springback  = f(xi), i = 1, 2, 3, . . . , n

if you know what I mean.
That is why I did not go to sci.materials group.
Thank you anyway. I would appreciate your continuous discussion.

Duncan


text:
On 20 Dec 2001 20:11:37 -0800, [email] (D. Raca) wrote:

It's begging the question, but why can't you just test it yourself?

You might be surprised what they will come up with (after Uncle Al
tells you to look on google...)  ;)

Actually, I believe you're stuck.  My hunch is that the _only_
calculations you'll find prewritten are the ones for the theoretical
movement.  And there, you'll be using a generic value to insert for
your particular material.

What I'm saying is that, in general, there will be a formula out there
for the deformation of a metal when it's in its elastic stretching
zone.  This is usually calculated from tension testing, so you'll have
to adjust (probably a calculus equation) for the deformation of a
linear rod because the stress will not be applied simpling in a single
dimension as is done in a tensile test. (I _know_ I did the
calculation once in college!  Maybe in statics?).  Look up the Modulus
of Elasticity. and Engineering stress and Engineering strain.  At a
certain psi of stress, you will hit the yield strength where plastic
deformation begins.

Basically, there are two points to consider testing at.  The first
point is before deformation.  The second point is post deformation.
The _only_ difference between the two will be the slight theoretical
possibility that you've changed your material near the bend point.
Otherwise, they should be the same calculation of linear stress/strain
of a single arm body.  (I'm not sure how a hollow vs. a solid rod
differs in their stress strain curve.)  Cross sectional area in
tension is a huge deal, but when applying stress in more of a shear
situation, I'm not sure how it applies with a pipe.  You might have
tension on the force side and compression on the other.

again, all of these calculations are nice an all, but like you pointed
out, they're theoretical.  And, to get the right values to enter in is
going to require tests.  So, instead of testing theoretical values and
then trying equations and then trying to apply to your process, why
not just measure the actual amounts and use a curve matcher to
generate a practical equation for use?

To test in real life, I would recommend a series of stepped tests with
your equipment.  If you can set up a fixture, just measure the amount
each type of metal releases when given a standard bend.  Calculate for
angle as well as distance travelled if you're bending from a clamped
point.  Do this until a consistent curve results and you're done.  No
sending premilled, exacting tensile strength samples off to labs.  No
calculus equations muddling your life.  (I don't know what level the
data is being used for, so...)

Again, there will be real life metallurgist/mechanical engineers out
there who calculate these things for applications like yours and who,
unlike me, actually know what they're talking about!  Noodle around
sci.materials.  Obviously, you aren't the first person to ask this
question.  There has to be a standard methodology out there.

I'm just a ceramic engineer dammit, not a doctor!

Jon


author: Tom Walz

text:
Any chance you could helpful information from people who do this?
They bend a lot of stainless steel for diary and other food
applications.  I found some data using the free version of Copernic.
We worked with spring back a lot when we had a stamping operation.
We had to build dies that were somewhat adjustable because we were
working to 0.001" and material temper, thickness, etc, could make that
much of difference from lot to lot.

We're pretty much hands on so I would start by asking muffler shops.
The next step would be one of the people who make custom lab ware,
etc.  U of Washington used to have sensational fabrication facilities
for lab equipment.  They may still have it.  Hope so.

Tom

P. s. just saw "Ceramic Engineer".   We are having real success
brazing some ceramics for saws, tools, etc.  Let me know if this
sparks any interest.

T


text:
Lots of personal interest Tom, but no professional interest!  I just
do loose grain abrasives.  Proper ceramic to metal bonding for tools
is one of those actual practical, holy grail applications where, if
you are successful, you can do all sorts of great things.

On the bending of metal, it occured to me also that anyone who is a
structural engineer calculating flex in things like lever arms or
suspended beams or whatever would most certainly do calculations for
the amount of deformation when stressed.  This deformation would be
equal to your springback.  So, maybe it's a standard mechanical
engineering or civil engineering calculation?

Jon


author: The Starmaker

subject: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
If a "super-Earth" is 200 percent as wide as Earth, then what is 2 times
as wide as Earth?

Borucki provided a more detailed breakdown:

    * 10.5 percent of the stars in the sample are predicted to have Earth-size planets (that is, 50 percent to 125 percent as wide as Earth).
    * 7.3 percent should have super-Earths (125 to 200 percent as wide as Earth).
    * 20.8 percent should have Neptune-sized planets (two to six times as wide as Earth).
    * 5.2 percent should have Jupiter-scale planets (more than six times as wide as Earth).
All these 'numbers' will get some additional *tweaking*, because they don't reflect the breakdown for multiple-planet systems.
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/19/6087627-planet-probe-spots-hot-prospects

What catergory does this topic go under...scfi TV? Science Fiction books? A screenplay movie? Or real sci.physics?

The Starmaker


author: tj Frazir

subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
earth flips over evry 3900 years .
a 70 deg role n to s . and rides on its opost 35 deg tilt.
 It turns backwards just fine without much evidence it flips other then
all the old books and the bible and all the giant old sun dials.
 Its a big secret .

 The planet losses a year of food and poeple starve.

http://community.webtv.net/GravityPhysics/WhaleSteamEngineA


author: Hunter

subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:01:56 -0800, The Starmaker
<[email]> wrote:

-----
Well that is wrong because a planet 200 times the size of Earth's
diameter would be more than 10 times the size of Jupiter, so a Super
Earth is not 200 times the size of Earth.
----
50 percent seems to be a bit low. Mars is about half the size of Earth
in terms of diameter (width). "Earth size to me on the low side would
be about 80 percent of the size of Earth like Venus is.
-----
That is incorrect. A Super Earth is only twice to 10 times the mass.
Jupiter the largest planet in our Solar System is only 22 times as
wide. Borucki got it wrong.
-----
No that is wrong since a Neptune is 8 times the diameter (width) of
Earth Were is this guy getting his data from
-----
Wrong again   Jupiter itself is 22 times bigger than Earth in terms of
diameter, .

-----
MSNBC has to get a new source because most of the stats in that
article is wrong.
------
Actually just plan wrong since the person who wrote that article is
dead wrong on almost all counts. It is poor sci fi and it sure isn't
real physics.

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
 a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

               -----William J. McDonald
           Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907


author: Professor Bubba

subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
In article <[email]>, The Starmaker
<[email]> wrote:

Ubi.


author: Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor

subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
On 3/6/11 10:44 AM, Hunter (Hunter) wrote:

	Percent. Times. There's a difference. 200% IS two times.


author: Ubiquitous

subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
[email] wrote:

STILL bitter about losing that debate with me, I see.


subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
trotsky wrote:

I've heard of Superman, I just haven't heard of Superearth before...

it's hard to tell with 'these people' whats real and whats not real.

They flood the world with 'false information' ....truth and reality is
no longer have meaning.

The Starmaker

What's next, super-Mars?


subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
The Starmaker wrote:

I'm willing to bet most of the people in the 'scientific community' never seen an 'ocean' before, execpt on TV
or Nature magazine.

That should be a requirement before they even enter college...

they need to get out of the basement.

The Starmaker


subject: Re: Super-Earth !!!!

text:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 12:50:15 -0800, The Starmaker
<[email]> wrote:

----
What are you talking about?
------
All you do is insult but you don't give anything to back up your
"arguments"

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
 a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

               -----William J. McDonald
           Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907


author: Peter Alaca

subject: Santorini(?) tsunami deposists Crete

text:
Bruins HJ et al (2008)
Geoarchaeological tsunami deposits at Palaikastro (Crete) "
and the Late Minoan IA eruption of Santorini.
Journal of Archaeological Science 35(1):191-212

http://tinyurl.com/28r3h4 [sciencedirect]

    Abstract

   "The explosive eruption at Santorini in the Aegean Sea during the
    second millennium BCE was the largest Holocene volcanic upheaval
    in the Eastern Mediterranean region. The eruption was disastrous
for
    the Minoan settlements at Santorini, but the effect on human
society
    in the neighbouring islands and regions is still clouded in
uncertainty.
    Tsunami generation was suggested, but comparatively little evidence
    was found. The lack of firm tsunami traces is particularly puzzling
in
    Crete with its coastal settlements of the Late Minoan IA period,
during
    which the Santorini eruption occurred.

    Here, we report the discovery of extensive geoarchaeological
tsunami
    deposits at Palaikastro in north-eastern Crete. These deposits are
    characterized by a mixture of geological materials, including
volcanic
    Santorini ash, and archaeological settlement debris. Various
tsunami
    signatures were identified:
    (1) erosional contact with the underlying strata,
    (2) volcanic ash intraclasts in the lower part of the deposit,
    (3) reworked building stone material in the lower part of the
deposit,
    (4) individual marine shells,
    (5) marine micro-fauna,
    (6) imbrication of rounded beach pebbles, settlement debris,
ceramic
    sherds and even bones,
    (7) multi-modal chaotic composition.

    Late Minoan human settlement activities at Palaikastro provided
    architectural and stratigraphic frameworks in space and time that
    recorded and preserved tsunami evidence as geoarchaeological
    deposits. Such stratigraphic resolution and preservation may not
    occur in the natural landscape. Volcanic ash transported by wind
from
    Santorini south-east to Crete preceded the tsunami. Geological,
    archaeological and radiocarbon dating criteria all converge,
indicating
    that the tsunami deposits are coeval with the Minoan Santorini
    eruption. Field evidence suggests that tsunami waves at Palaikastro
    were at least 9 m high. Inverse tsunami modeling was attempted,
    based on these newly discovered tsunamigenic deposits. The initial
    wave in the generation region at Santorini that best fits the
    stratigraphic data is a wave with +35 to -15 m initial amplitude
and a
    crest length of about 15 km.

    Keywords: Minoan Santorini eruption; Crete; Geoarchaeological
    tsunami deposits; Micromorphology; Volcanic ash geochemistry;
    Radiocarbon dating; Tsunami modeling


author: Samra

subject: Re: Santorini(?) tsunami deposists Crete

text:
On Jan 1, 12:09 pm, "Peter Alaca" <[email]> wrote:

Thanks so much for a wonderful post that actually deals with
archaeology. I wrote a paper several months ago on the Santorini
eruption for the Thera Foundation that theorized that pyroclastic
surge (super-heated gas) activity may have had an even greater
destructive effect on the Aegean islands than the tsunamis.

BTW, I was very close to writing SA off as a contaminated psychopathic
cesspool except for posts like this. Thanks again.

W. Sheppard Baird

http://www.minoanatlantis.com


author: Jack Linthicum

text:
On Jan 1, 12:09 pm, "Peter Alaca" <[email]> wrote:

I have my usual amateur's problem with this report. They seem to have
settled on a date sometime around 1400 BC, the cattle bones are in
that zone and they seem to equate any other dating to that time
period. I have seen other reviews that put the Santorini date closer
to 1627-1600 BC. Am I incorrect in this last?


author: Eric Stevens

text:
On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:50:54 -0800 (PST), Samra
<[email]> wrote:

Then there was my post of 7 Jan 2005 which may still be found at
http://groups.google.co.nz/group/sci.archaeology/browse_thread/thread/281c73fd7fef12d9/9fa9a265167e9e79?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#9fa9a265167e9e79
or http://tinyurl.com/2uk3dp

I quoted Bryant on the subject of Santorini:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A subjective answer to the question of what it is that constitutes 'a
large tsunami' may be indicated from the following:

Bryant in his 'Tsunami: The underrated Hazard' writes of the Santorin
eruption on page 225:

  "The eruption around 1470 B.C. had four distinct phases. The first
    was a Plinian phase with massive pumice falls. This was followed
    by a series of basal surges producing profuse quantities of pumice
    up to 30 m thick on Santorini. The third phase was associated with
    the collapse of the caldera and production of pyroclastic flows.
    About 4.5 km3 of dense magma was ejected from the volcano,
    producing 10 km3 of ash. The volume of ejecta is similar in
    magnitude to that produced by the Krakatau eruption in 1883. The
    ash drifted to the east-southeast, but did not exceed 5 mm
    thickness in deposits on any of the adjacent islands, including
    Crete. The largest thickness of ash measured in marine cores
    appears to originate from pumice that floated into the Eastern
    Mediterranean. It is possible at this stage that ocean water made
    contact with the magma chamber and produced large explosions,
    which generated tsunami in the same way that the eruption of
    Krakatau did. The final phase of the eruption was associated with
    the collapse of the caldera in its southwest corner. The volcano
    sunk over an area of 83 km2 and to a depth of between 600 and 800
    m. According to the Krakatau model, this final event produced the
    largest tsunami, directing most of its energy westwards (Figure
    7.4). It is estimated that the original height of the tsunami was
    46—68 m in height, and maybe as high as 90 m. The average period
    between the dozen or more peaks in the wave train was 15 minutes.
    Evidence of the tsunami is found in deposits close to Santorini.
    On the island of Anapi to the east, sea-borne pumice was deposited
    to an altitude of 40—50 m above present sea level. Considering
    that sea levels at the time of the eruption may have been 10 m
    lower, this represents run-up heights greater than those produced
    by Krakatau in the Sunda Strait. On the Island of Crete, the wave
    arrived within 30 minutes, with a height of approximately 11 m.
    Refraction focussed wave energy on the northeast corner of Crete,
    where run-up heights reached 40 m above sea level. In the region
    of Knossos, the tsunami swept across a 3-km-wide coastal plain,
    reaching the mountains behind. The backwash concentrated in
    valleys and watercourses, and was highly erosive. Evidence for the
    tsunami is also found in the Eastern Mediterranean on the western
    side of Cyprus, and further away at Jaffa—Tel Aviv in Israel. At
    the latter location, pumice has been found on a terrace lying 7 m
    above sea level at the time of the eruption. However, the tsunami
    wave here had already undergone substantial defocussing because of
    wave refraction as it passed between the islands of Crete and
    Rhodes. The greatest tsunami wave heights occurred west of
    Santoririi. Based upon linear wave theory, the wave in the central
    Mediterranean Sea was 17 m high, while closer to Italy over the
    submarine Calabrian Ridge, it was 7 m high. Bottom current
    velocities under the wave crest in these regions ranged between 20
    and 50 cm s~ — great enough to entrain clay to gravel sized
    particles. The maximum pressure pulse produced on the seabed by
    the passage of the wave ranged between 350 and 850 kdyne cm2.
    Spontaneous liquefaction and flow of water-saturated muds is known
    to occur under pressure pulses of 280.

   Some of the evidence for a large tsunami comes from the discovery
   of unusual deposits on the seabed of the central Mediterranean Sea,
   where wave heights were highest. These deposits — labelled
   homogenites — formed in the deep ocean as the result of settling
   from suspension of densely concentrated, fine-grained sediment.
   This process produced homogeneous units up to 25 m thick with a
   sharp basal contact. Homogenites can be linked hydrodynamically
   to the passage of a tsunami wave. As sediment fails via
   liquefaction due to the pressure pulse, oscillatory flow under the
   wave suspends finer particles, creating turbulent clouds of
   sediment. It is estimated that the slurries exceeded concentrations
   of 16,000 rng H. In comparison, the highest measured sediment
   concentrations on the ocean seabed and in muddy tidal estuaries
   rarely exceed 12 rng l~ and 300 mg H respectively. Gravity sorting
   occurred under this extreme concentration. Sand-sized particles
   settled first to the bottom and were deposited at the erosional
   contact with the seabed as a fining upward unit whose thickness
   ranged from a few centimetres to several metres. Finer clay-sized
   sediment was deposited over the next few days as a massive
   undifferentiated clay deposit that was up to 20 rn or more thick.
   Hormgenites differ from turbidites described in Chapter 3 by their
   greater thickness, lack of laminations, and undifferentiated
   particle size. Homogenites differ from debris flows by the absence
   of large clasts or rock pieces derived from continental sediments.

   Four types of homogenites can be differentiated. In the Western
   Mediterranean, on the lonian Abyssal Plain, a 10- to 20-rn-thick
   deposit, with an estimated volume of 11 km3, was laid down on the
   seabed over an area of 1,100 km2. It appears that the tsunami wave
   slammed into the continental shelf of North Africa and either
   directly or indirectly triggered a mega-turbidity current. This
   current carried terrigenous and shelf sediment into the deep
   Mediterranean Sea, eroding flanks of undersea ridges and
   depositing homogenites with an erosional base on upsiopes. In one
   location this turbidity current rode up a ridge 223 m above the
   abyssal plain and deposited sediment. In the eastern part of the
   Mediterranean, bottom velocities and the related powerful pressure
   pulse liquefied sand into depressions, forming uniform deposits
   several metres thick with a sandy base overlying an erosional
   contact. These deposits form in cobblestone-shaped basins with a
   vertical relief of 200 m. Finally, in the Bannock Basin, the
   passage of the wave destabilised evaporites. The resulting deposits
   are 12 m thick and consist of 3 m of sand overlain by 9 m of graded
   mud deposited from suspension in highdensity brines trapped at the
   bottom of 100-m-deep depressions in the seabed. All of the
   homogenites found in the Mediterranean are derived from a single
   event and date around the time of the Santorini eruption.
   Homogenites are not found in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, where
   tsunami wave heights were insufficient to cause resuspension or
   liquefaction of bottom sediment."

I was familiar with this text as the discussions of the last few days
had caused me to reread it. I particularly noted the depths of the
turbidity deposits etc desceiped in the last two paragraphs. What
caused me to post it on this occasion was an interview on the local TV
yesterday evening with an Indian naval officer. He said the Indian
navy has discovered that Aceh earthquake and tsunami have made drastic
changes in the shape of the sea bed over very large areas. He
mentioned on area where the depth was previously 4000' and now is only
100'! Such a change is very unlikely to have been caused by crustal
movement and can only be ascribed to turbidities etc. Clearly the
volume of water displaced in the Aceh tsunami vastly exceeds that
displaced by Santorini, yet the Santorini 'run ups' seem to vastly
exceed those of Aceh.

This then raises the question of what is a 'large tsunami'.
Dominey-Howes may well be correct when he says that there is
insufficient evidence to demonstrate that a large tsunami (in the Aceh
sense) propagated throughout the eastern Mediterranean circa 3,500
years BP, yet the evidence of tsunami deposits on land cited by Bryant
suggest that there was a very considerable wave series, nevertheless.

Eric Stevens


text:
On Jan 1, 5:11 pm, Eric Stevens <[email]> wrote:

Dear Eric,

Very interesting. The truth of the character of the Santorini marine
volcano's tsunami(s) seems to still not be well defined. I've seen the
paper by Pareschi 2006 - "Impact of the Minoan Tsunami of Santorini.
Simulated Scenarios in the Eastern Mediterranean" that indicates the
waves were mainly confined to the the southern Aegean.

Abstract:

We have simulated the impact of the tsunami generated by the Late
Bronze Age (LBA) volcanic eruption of Santorini on the Eastern
Mediterranean. Two different tsunami triggering mechanisms were
considered: a caldera collapse and pyroclastic flows/surges entering
the sea. Simulations include the ''worst'' input conditions in order
to evaluate the maximum possible impacts, but also ''lighter'' input
conditions, compatible with the lack of any tsunami trace on the
Northern coasts of Crete. In all the simulations, tsunami propagation
is mainly confined to the Southern Aegean. Outside the Aegean, the
tsunami impact was negligible and not responsible for the slide-
slumping of fine-grained pelagic and/or hemipelagic sediments
considered the sources of the sporadically located seadeposits in the
Ionian Sea and of the widespread megaturbidite deposits localized in
the Ionian and Sirte Abyssal Plains.

My observation was that however large the marine volcano's tsunami(s)
were, they would not have been capable of destroying the Minoan
civilization on Crete. If you look at the geography of Crete it is
quite mountainous and there were many inland cities (Arkhanes,
Galatas, Vathypetro, Gortys, Phaistos, etc.) with large populations
that were far inland and at too high of an elevation to have been
affected by the waves. Most of the Minoans on Crete would have
survived, but the low lying northern coastal communities (Amnisos,
Katsamba, Mallia, etc.) would have been utterly devastated.

The archaeological remains show that "the complex at Mallia, about 30
kilometers to the east of Knossos, was scraped almost to its
foundation by the tsunamis, but it was only 600 meters from the sea at
an elevation of 11 meters. The tsunami would have merely washed up on
the nearby 400 to 700 meter high foothills three or four kilometers to
the south before it receded back into the sea. No volcanic tsunami
could ever have washed completely over mountainous Crete. The large
populations of Arkhanes and Phaistos to the south would have been
essentially unaffected. The palace complex of Knossos was over five
kilometers inland at an elevation of 90 meters and was not scraped
clean by a tsunami. It was burned!"

I theorized that if the destruction was much greater than what was
possible from the waves, the volcano might have sent out blooms of
super-heated dry steam (pyroclastic surges) 110 km over the sea that
enveloped large areas of Crete scorching many to their deaths. This
happened on a smaller scale with Krakatau (also a marine volcano) with
something like 2,000 people being burned to death over 40 kilometers
from the volcano. This also happened with Mt Pelee on Martinique in
1903 in the Caribbean with around 30,000 deaths from scorching.

Also, I've heard that in the last few years many scientists have
upgraded the magnitude of Santorini to a VEI of 7 instead of the
traditional 6 which would make it ten times bigger than Krakatau.

Best Regards,

W. Sheppard Baird

http://www.minoanatlantis.com


author: grapheus

text:
On Jan 1, 11:11 pm, Eric Stevens <[email]> wrote:

Well, all this seems to me very coherent with J. Faucounau's thesis,
as detailled in 2003 in his book (in French, so little known by
English-speaking scholars) "Les Peuples de la Mer et leur histoire"...
There has been no "large tsunami" at the time of the main ERUPTION
(and partial collapse), but there has been one LATER, c. 1205, during
"the Second Collapse" of the Theran volcano.

Happy New Year !

grapheus


text:
On Jan 3, 4:25 pm, Cory Albrecht <[email]> wrote:

In this case, I am not alone writing stupidities on the NET !.. You
are also a good example...

WRONG !..  You had relied upon the WIKIPEDIA of that time saying that
Galileo is a kook !...

Oh yes, it is !... Because you are a PERFECT BELIEVER in Wikipedia and
in what has been written on the NET. So YOUR credibility is the same
as YOUR sources..

grapheus


text:
On Jan 3, 4:27 pm, Cory Albrecht <[email]> wrote:

YES.

.. when some "real and valid sources" have not been suppressed by a
bunch of guys who don't like them !!!!
I've found tens of examples of this. For instance, I found once the
sentence : "X believes that A = B is the final solution". I proposed
the redaction : "X believes that A= B is the final solution, but this
opinion is not accepted by all scholars in the field". Well, this new
redaction -WHICH IS TREFLECTING THE TRUTH- has been undone by the
preceding redactor (a WIKI-administrator", incompetent in the
matter) !!!! So, I didn't insist, because I know that this is the way
it goes with WIKIPEDIA...

grapheus


text:
On Jan 4, 7:55 am, "Inger E" <[email]> wrote:

Dear Inger,

I've transmitted your message and have in return a message to transmit
to you : "Many thanks and Best Wishes for a Very Happy New Year !"

grapheus


text:
On Jan 3, 2:40 am, Cory Albrecht <[email]> wrote:

And ANOTHER guy BLINDLY TRUSTING the stupidities that have been
written on the NET than trying to make his own opinion by READING the
original works !...
I'm sure that if Galileo's theories had been "discussed" on the NET,
Cory Albrecht would have considered him also as "an hybrid of
obsession and kookiness"... Well, it is easier to googling than
reading some 50 papers and books, mostly in French... And Cory
Albrecht is so busy writing stupidities on the NET...
`
grapheus


text:
On Jan 3, 8:30 am, "Inger E" <[email]> wrote:

Dear Inger,

Wikipedia was at the beginning A GREAT IDEA, but it has become a NON-
RELIABLE source when, instead of blocking an ARTICLE when there was
two conflicting views (so was opened the search for a compromise in
the "Discussion part", in accordance with the WIKI-principles), it has
been accepted to block a REDACTOR. This has opened the door to the
possibility to IMPOSE ANY OPINION as "the Truth". The only condition
was for THIS opinion to be "defended" by 3 or 4 guys acting like a
pack of wolves. And this occurred very rapidly, with convenient
alliances between "WIKI-Administrators" : "You will help me imposing
MY theory as the Truth, and I will help you to impose YOURs!".. So
that, WIKIPEDIA is now a NON-RELIABLE source...

Happy New Year to you !
Regards
grapheus