author: Lesley Robertson

subject: Re: No Moron - Re: 70% ethanol

text:
"Jorge1907" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It would help if you'd include a bit of the previous message. The we could
all see who you're insulting.
Lesley Robertson


author: Dave

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
"R.I. Mateles" <[email]> wrote in message
news:4xCg8.34446$[email]...
not

that's what I meant, honest

Dave


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
"R.I. Mateles" <[email]> wrote in message
news:4xCg8.34446$[email]...
not
anyway IIRC the water allows the protein to "unravel"

Dave


author: Repeating Decimal

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
in article [email], Adamporins at
[email] wrote on 3/4/02 8:21 AM:

This is the reply post in the thread to make any sense!

Bill


author: Crystalviolent

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
(Adamporins) writes:

This is why we use betadyne in the clinical lab to cleanse the patient's arm
and the tops of the bottles when we draw blood cultures.


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Killing is within seconds of exposure on a hard surface and has limited effect
on skin becuase the baterial ppulation is not just sitting on top and there are
other components tha interfere.

Suggest you read chapter in Blocks book - killing is withing 10 seconds
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Bill:

If you weren't so ignorant - this would not make so much sense.

Ask the idiot for references.  If it were that dessicating, by his own
reasoning, 100% would kill nothing.  Of course that is wrong and the difference
between 70% and 100% (and you really can't get 100% - 95% is the azeotrope) is
minimal.

AND - if the idiot knew any anything he'sd know ethanol kills fast (see blcok's
book) within seconds and well within the period BEFORE evaporation.\

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy


author: Adamporins

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
reasoning, 100% would kill nothing.

The idiot responds: Resitant is not the same as immortal. It simply means that
it takes longer. The rate constant is lower.

The idiot speaks again: I have a bottle labled 100% ethanol, USP in my lab
fridge.

The idio'ts final comments: fast is not a scientific term. This is a
quatititive subject. We speak of rate contstants.

As for block's book: would that the idiot or his library were wealthy enough to
buy a copy.


author: Patrick Druggan

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Regarding the azeotrop. 100% is achieved by adding benzene and distilling
the mixture. Otherwise the best you can get is 95%, the remainder being
water. Pd.


subject: ADAM the MORON - was: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
As you readily see, this guy knows little about theoretical micro OR chemistry.

Rate constant????   This term is not used in the context of a kill curve, you
moron. If you were literate, you might learn.  Again, read Block - he wriites
in simple terms even a moron like you might understand.

And as for the alcoho,l you dumb shit, I don't care what your label says - it's
very very likely not 100%.  Look moron, it's expensive to make 100% and
requires distillation with organic solvents or treatment with conc. sulfuric
acid.  It's rarely if ever used for micro as it's not useful and as said is
expensive.

Pull your head out of your ass.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy


author: Clement

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
You all were discussing unimportant stuffs. 70% ethanol is a mixture
of ethanol, water, and METHANOL!! The methanol is the one that
responsible in lethality of 70% ethanol.


author: John Gentile

subject: Re: ADAM the MORON - was: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Why don't you think he would have 100% alcohol in the lab? I know that we
always have at least 1 liter at all times of 100% (200 proof) Ethanol.


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Also dickbrain, if you knew ANYTHING about methanol toxicity you'd know that
ethanol is the antidote for methanol intoxication.  So even if methanol were
the denaturant (WHICH IT IS FUCKING NOT!!) , there is no way in hell it would
be toxic.

Carry on your idiocy and feel free to display it here.  LOLOL

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Where do you get that??
Jesus you are a moron!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
I wasn't discussing this thread, but making a comment pertinent to the
abusive tone taken by jorge1907 in this thread. Pd.

"Clement" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Tompsonhill

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Clement wrote:

We keep two forms of  ethanol in our lab.
A) Reagent Alcohol-- The label says, "200 Proff" but it also indicates
ethanol-- 90.25 % methanol  4.75.  So if a 70% solution is prepared, yes
it
will contain some methanol.

This stuff is definitely not for consumption or drug use.

B)  We also keep USP alcohol.

Ethyl Alcohol 200 Proof Dehydrated
The label states,  "Puntilious, USP."  USP means it is useable for
pharmaceutical purposes.
This is the real stuff, but we seldom have a need to use it  and keep
very little around.

For ordinary everyday purposes diluting the Reagent Grade stuff as if it
were 100% ethanol
works just fine.

As to the original question, which kills bacteria better, 70% or  higher
%,
I was taught that 70% works well on non-porous surfaces in the absence
of
organic matter, and that the water content was necessary.  I don't know
if what I was taught was 100% correct, but I accept it as fact.


subject: Re: 70% ethanol-2nd try

text:
Clement wrote:

No, it is not the methanol that kills the bacteria..  The % methanol in
a 70% aqueous solution of reagent grade
alcohol is too low to be the primary source of killing.  OTOH, it is
still high enough
that it should never be imbibed.


author: JEDilworth

text:
I agree. We use 100% ETOH as part of our trichrome staining procedure.
We also have it in our lab at all times. It's also in the histology
department if we ever run out.

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology

John Gentile wrote:


author: Trond Erik Vee Aune

subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Isn't it possible to moderate this newsgroup and filter out postings
like this?

Trond Erik Vee Aune

Jorge1907 wrote:


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
[email] (Jorge1907) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Well, if you say that ethanol is the antidote for methanol, then, you
can just drink 70% ethanol with methanol in it and you won't be dead.

Who's the idiot? YOU


text:
I doubt that 100% ethanol would be much more expensive that 95%, as most of
the cost is in the duty paid to the respective government. Pd.

"JEDilworth" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
we


subject: Re: 70% ethanol

text:
Sorry Trondmoron - I guess you like to remain ignorant OR have someone be sooo
nice to the idiots like you.

Try to learn some biology - and from any source - not just real nice folks like
your mommy.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy


author: Chip Pate

subject: Managing in Acad Health Ctrs Seminar

text:
MANAGING IN ACADEMIC HEALTH CENTERS

May 21-25, 1995
The William and Ida Friday Continuing Education Center
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Managing in Academic Health Centers is an intensive management program
examining topics most pressing in today's academic health center
community. Presented by nationally-recognized faculty, sessions include
topics such as understanding the issues and challenges now facing
academic health centers, enhancing the educational process, developing
productive organizations, managing people, finding and controlling funds,
and using technology effectively.

Leaders from across the academic health center are encouraged to attend,
including academic and professional leaders in Schools of allied health,
dentistry, medicine, nursing, pharmacy, and public health; administrators
in teaching hospitals and university-operated health clinics; and others
managing in the academic health center environment.

THE FEE for the entire five-day management program is $1295.  It
includes all educational materials (including the book, Managing
in Academics: A Health Care Model, by program co-director Jill
Ridky and faculty member George Sheldon), instructional sessions,
coffee breaks, a welcome reception, lunch each day, a reception
and dinner on Sunday night, and a North Carolina "pig pickin'"
on Tuesday night.

ENROLLMENT IN THE PROGRAM IS LIMITED to maintain interaction among
participants and the faculty, so early registration is strongly
advised.

MANAGING IN ACADEMIC HEALTH CENTERS is sponsored by the Institute
for Academic and Professional Leadership, the Division of Health
Affairs, and the Division of Continuing Education at The University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:  Contact program co-director
Chip Pate at the address below.

**********************************************************************
William S. (Chip) Pate, Jr., Ph.D.  |  Phone:  919-962-3276
Program Director                    |  FAX:    919-962-2061
Institute for Academic and          |  Email:  [email]
  Professional Leadership           |
The Friday Center, CB #1020         |  The IAPL offers professional
UNC-Chapel Hill                     |  development to leaders in
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-1020         |  higher education.
**********************************************************************


author: Allen Thomson

subject: Passively oriented solar sails?

text:
Has anyone proposed a design for such a thing?

What I have in mind is something analogous to a parachute,
or a windmill, or an arrow that orients itself automatically
to achieve the desired effect. The orientation in those cases
happens totally without active intervention, not a neuron or
transistor involved.

In the solar sail case, automatic orientation either to cause
the sail to spiral toward or to cause it to retreat from the
sun/star would be of interest.


author: Henry Spencer

subject: Re: Passively oriented solar sails?

text:
In article <[email]>,
Allen Thomson <[email]> wrote:

Yes.  In particular, some years ago the Russians proposed to use this for
passive stabilization of satellites for things like solar-wind studies, to
eliminate thruster firings and produce a very clean environment.

One potential problem is that you might need some way of damping
oscillations.


author: James Garry

subject: Re: Passively oriented solar sails?

text:
On 22/7/02 10:34 pm, in article
[email], "Allen Thomson"
<[email]> wrote:

Yes.

'coolie-hat' designs have been ground tested using microwave beams - I can
dig for names if you want.

The case is somewhat similar to that in aerodynamics, a conical shell will
be passively stable and will trim itself to face the incoming
sunlight/light. Saves all this tedious mucking about with varying length
risers and control-loops for a large and inherenetly floppy thing.

(how stable? Wait a few weekends, I've a numerical study on this subject to
be submitted to a certain journal)

-James Garry
_______________________________________________
Planetary and Space Sciences Research Institute
The Open University, Milton Keynes, MK7 6AA, UK


author: Geoffrey A. Landis

subject: Re: Passively oriented solar sails?

text:
Allen Thomson wrote:

Yes.

Parachute solar sails don't work; they collapse from the edge inward.

It's far trickier than it seems, since you're looking to orient 45
degrees to the sun.


author: Pentcho Valev

subject: Einstein's Dreams Come True

text:
http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2006/03/10/making_einsteins_dreams_come_true/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/ingdahl2.html
"But there has been a marked global decrease of students willing to
study physics, and funding has decreased accordingly. Not only that,
the best students are not heading for studies in physics, finding other
fields more appealing, and science teachers to schools are getting
scarcer in supply. In fact, warning voices are being heard about the
spread of a "scientific illiteracy" where many living in
technologically advanced societies lack the knowledge and the ability
for critical thinking in order to function in their daily environment.
........................
Einstein moved to the US, and became more of a recluse. The scientific
problems of theoretical physics had certainly become more difficult
during Einstein's life, but he continued to be the last classical
physicist rather than taking part of the revolution of relativity and
quantum mechanics he had ushered, instead pursuing an extension of the
general theory of relativity in a unified field theory. During his
Princeton years he cultivated the image of the bohemian, sloppily clad,
ivory tower professor that became the very essence of the public's
image of a scientist. In his search for the unified field theory he
also became more concerned with abstract formalism, rather than
argumentation and experimentation - a formalism that unfortunately is
seen in today's class rooms where teachers often find it difficult to
explain why physics is of relevance to the students."

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/comment/story/0,9828,1648111,00.html
"We are nearing the end of the "World Year of Physics", otherwise known
as Einstein Year, as it is the centenary of his annus mirabilis in
which he made three incredible breakthroughs, including special
relativity. In fact, it was 100 years ago yesterday that he published
the most famous equation in the history of physics: E=mc2. But instead
of celebrating, physicists are in mourning after a report showed a
dramatic decline in the number of pupils studying physics at school.
The number taking A-level physics has dropped by 38% over the past 15
years, a catastrophic meltdown that is set to continue over the next
few years. The report warns that a shortage of physics teachers and a
lack of interest from pupils could mean the end of physics in state
schools.... Britain was the home of Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday and
Paul Dirac, and Brits made world-class contributions to understanding
gravity, quantum physics and electromagnetism - and yet the British
physicist is now facing extinction."

Pentcho Valev


author: OsherD

subject: Re: Einstein's Dreams Come True

text:
Pentcho Valev typed:

The same thing is happening in USA mathematics and physics.  Here a
special danger is believing surveys or studies conducted by teachers or
professors as to student outcomes.   It would probably be better for a
researcher into the extinction of physics and mathematics to actually
sit for a number of days or weeks in randomly selected classrooms in
the USA to witness for himself/herself what's happening.  Published
and/or "official" surveys and studies are usually done by tenured or
very pro-tenure researchers who consciously or subconsciously want to
make the system look as good as possible.   In fact, the Educational
Mafia is arguably as self-protecting and self-serving as the Italian
Mafia even if the former largely relies on Passive Aggression.  Look up
the Passive-Aggressive personality type or character disorder on the
internet, which may look less Violent than actively Aggressive or
actively Violence-Oriented types but leads to similar outcomes.

See my thread on Quantum Gravity in sci.physics which is currently
ongoing, in which I again emphasize that physics and mathematics
advance most when they emphasize Reality rather than algebraic
abstractions.   Unfortunately, Superstring/Brane and Loop Quantum
Gravity and their relatives emphasize algebraic abstractions or
algebraic geometry/algebraic topology abnstractions.

Osher Doctorow


author: Hexenmeister

subject: Re: Einstein's Dreams Come True

text:
"Pentcho Valev" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

There is only room for one Newton or Faraday at a time.
What are the mathematics figures like?

Androcles.


author: the 3rd Man

subject: Any of KathLOON's darling little suck-ups and toadies starting to GET it, now?

text:
Any of her completely self-centered pompous arrogant behavior starting
to open your eyes, now?

You watching this? How she seems to be OBSESSED with what she
apparently thinks is her right to VIOLATE the RULES?

You know, the rules that are applicable to EVERYONE, here?

Notice... how she not only violates them...but keeps defiantly changing
subject headings and willfully cross-posting off topic material?
Childishly, multiple, multiple times?

Does ANYONE want to defend her continual posting of her whacked-out
theories about the WTC collapse...ON A LYME DISEASE BOARD?

Notice... how even when other posters TELL her that people she
addresses as being "Joel" or "Ed" or "Don" or whatever...are really
not...that she not only ignores it...but tells these people they are
not "scientists"?( Don't bother her with FACTS that conflict with her
DELUSIONS).

Notice how she raves and rants about totally disconnected things...that
seem to be somehow connected in HER mind?

Notice how this board seems to have almost nothing to do with Lyme
disease anymore...but is all about Kathleen?

Notice how she doesn't even bother with any kind of explanation as to
why she hasn't violated forum rules?

Notice how she just doesn't give a damn about anyone else's feelings or
needs?

NOW...question...do you begin to see a pattern, here? DO you think her
problems on the "outside" are the least bit different?

Do you understand WHY she has gotten into trouble with the law? AND why
her personal life is such a horrible dysfunctional mess?

Pay attention...she's showing you!!!

AND...do you honestly think that her "ideas" about Lyme disease are
somehow magically sane and intelligent...while all the rest of her
GARBAGE is NOT?

Get a clue, toadies and suck-ups...take a good look at fearless leader,
here...

...(and up yours, Phyllis!...how DARE you?).


subject: Re: Any of KathLOON's darling little suck-ups and toadies starting to GET it, now?

text:
George Orwell wrote:

And YOURS is not?

Uhhh...we're talking about an average of five to six off-topic posts a
day directed at four or five unrelated groups.

Yes. That's right.  Wouldn't waste my time.

Yes, maybe, but it really isn't important for me to know that, you see.
On the other hand, I know understand about things like RICO and "fraud"
and false claim acts and stuff...see, that's what we've been discussing
here...and her various and assorted LEGAL theories, you see.

If I need to know about C2H6O, I can look it up.

Never said I was scientifically literate.  Did you think that it is
somehow necessary for me to know this?

You?

Oh? And may I ask what I may have done to offend your apparently tender
sensibilities, pray tell? (Since I don't recall ever having had any
exchange with you previously)?

Oh gosh...I am humiliated...(I guess)...I really don't give a crap, to
tell the truth...but what the hell is YOUR problem?

IS everybody a raving LOON around here?


author: George Orwell

text:
In article <[email]>
"the 3rd Man" <[email]> wrote:

And your behavior is not?

What about you, Herr Drittemann?

If you don't like her posts, use a killfile.

If you think she's an idiot, answer this:  Who testified to the FDA about LYMErix?

Answer: Kathleen did, and I bet that you didn't.

Now, quickly answer this (no Internet search allowed): what is C2H6O?

I bet that Kathleen can figure it out, and that you cannot.

So who is the "idiot" now?

You are.

You're just a dumbass lawyer.

Since you're probably still stumped, the answer to the last question is ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol.

Have a nice day.


author: Kathleen is INSANE

text:
Lymehelp wrote:

Screw you Hick. Why do even bother to post here you are so stupid.

You have to be a moron just to believe that crap.


text:
George Orwell wrote:

Have a nice day...Kathleen talking about herself using a anonymous
posting service.

How lame


author: [redacted]

subject: Joel Shmukler clearly has no other topics- He's jealous because he s not a scientist

text:
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/01/slides/3680s2_11.pdf

And he wants to be famous.

Kathleen

the 3rd Man wrote:


subject: Re: ot-Did You Watch The Movie

text:
Lymehelp wrote:

In all seriousness now I know why you are here just like Kathy, you got
booted from LymeNet for talking crazy like this.  I don't know why this
place has to be a dumping ground for the rejects from LymeNut.

The Building fell from the top down, millions of pounds of pressure
causes concrete and other materials to be crushed into dust. It was all
explained from INDEPENDENT studies on A&E and Discovery channel with
experts going over the time line of the attacks.

Building number 7 burned ALL DAY without being put out.  What happens
to a STEEL building under extreme heat like that???  DUH, steel weakens
and POOF the building structure will become unstable and can fall.  Any
moron knows that.

Why am I even explaining or debating this?  Stupid ass conspiracy
theorists need to get a life.


author: Lymehelp

text:
The Only Thing I Notice How You Are Always Paying Attention To Her.JUST DONT
READ HER POSTS.
How Hard Can That Be?

"the 3rd Man" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
Lymehelp wrote:

Duh.

She is CROSS-POSTING OFF-TOPIC material to FIVE different groups!

HOW HARD IS THIS FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?

When people reply...unless THEY are careful...the replies from FIVE
different groups wind-up inter-mingled. If everyone did this...do you
have any idea what a MESS that would be?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Want to explain what the President of Iran's speech
has to do with Lyme disease? Or Venezuela?

WHY are YOU making EXCUSES for her?

You think she is "different"? You think she has special privileges?

FIGURE IT OUT.


author: StubbyElvis

text:
I'd really like to give that a shot.  But it sounds like 3rdman is in a
bit of a mood today, so I'll pass for now.  ;-)


text:
Dear Howard,

Kathy's information about the highly secretive and dangerous alliance
among Bush Crime Family, Illuminati, Freemasons, Connecticut Dept.
Child Services, and the Elk's Lodge; is far too important to be
obstructed by newsgroup's rules.  We NEED to be kept informed on these
matters.  And I, for one, wish to defer my judgement to a highly
educated and lettered scholar like Dr. Kathy when it comes to matters
of such gravity.

Sincerely,
StubbyElvis_

p.s.  Kristine Ragaglia is a multiorgasmic drunken slut who does NOT
wear panties.


text:
go to google movies,type in 911,and watch the towers fall.Then YOU decide.I
know its off topic,but i believe we blew it up.Watch tower 7 it had no
reason to go down.So let Kathleen alone,and post some lyme news.

If you know what lyme disease is.

"George Orwell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
LYMErix?
ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol.


subject: ot-Did You Watch The Movie

text:
dumbass,the cement was nearly all dust,there would have been boulder type
colums falling.NOT dust.The buildings were blown.


author: EDavis

subject: Re: What is 'brinelling'?

text:
I worked in the bearing industry for 20 years, about 12 years ago...
I believe that you can substitute the term "work hardening" for
"brinelling", and not lose too much meaning.  If you can imagine the
stresses experienced by a roller bearing as it spins, it hardens under
the stress over time.  I recall that this was called "brinelling".
Someone with better info (or memory) may be able to expand on this...


author: Doug Schwarz

subject: Re: Mathmatics Programs, Recommendations?

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (IsoQuantic Technologies) wrote:

The MathWorks is the company behind MATLAB and they are not related to
these other two products (though there is a Symbolic Toolbox available for
MATLAB which links to Maple).  My opinion is that their Mac support is
generally quite good.

Doug Schwarz
Eastman Kodak Company
[email]


author: IsoQuantic Technologies

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
(Doug Schwarz) wrote:

A mistake I realized after posting the article and catching a plane.
(sigh) Substitute "MathSoft" in place of my use of "The Math Works".

While on the subject of The Math Works, though, let me say that I do not
understand why they will not release a non-FPU version of MATLAB, other
than toy student versions. And they, like a dozen others out there, seem
to think that Software FPU 3.0 solves the 68LC040 non-FPU problem. Absoft
even distributes it and its new release literature of MacFortran claims
that Software FPU makes it compatible with "most 68LC040-based systems".
Wrong.

---------------------IsoQuantic Technologies---------------------
Patrick L. Reilly                          Voice: +1.602.917.9543
[email]                        fax:+1.602.917.9493
-----------1857 W. Calle Del Norte, Chandler, AZ 85224-----------


text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (IsoQuantic Technologies) wrote:

I certainly don't know, but I would guess that they don't want MATLAB to
get a reputation for being slow.  A non-FPU version would run fine on a
Mac w/FPU, but it would be much slower.  Without the limitations of the
student version, it might not be obvious that a faster version existed.
So, some users might make the mistake of thinking MATLAB is a dog
(apologies to canines).  It's not much of an issue for me since my Macs
(work and home) have FPUs.  Perhaps it's not an issue for most MATLAB
users and so just not worth the effort.

Doug Schwarz
Eastman Kodak Company
[email]


subject: More on serendipity

text:
[The other thread is straining the screen width for viewing on google,
so I'm branching this off.]

Bob (not that one) wrote, "I still stick to my earlier answer that if
you
fit the functions f1 and f2 to same data and find that b2 = b1^2, then
this
is serendipity."

Thinking about this some more, I agree that if one fits the linear
model
f1 = b0 + b1 x1 + b2 x2 + e to some data and finds, to whatever
precision
one can muster, b2 = b1^2, that is serendipity.  But if one fits the
(putatively termed nonlinear :-) ) model f2 = b0 + b1 x1 + b1^2 x2 + e
to the data then clearly the parameter multiplying x2 is b1^2 which
in no way is serendipitously equal to b1^2, it *is* b1^2 (and better
be equal to it or your fitting software is flawed ;-) ).  But one
would only, IMO, fit such a model (and I'm still waiting for someone
to post an actual example of this being done) if one had reason to
believe that the process which generated the data required the form f2.
Even then, in the presence of noise if one fit both models would b1
from
f1 equal b1 from f2 and b2 from f1 equal b1^2 from f2?  My instinct
says
no, but I have not coded up any examples and tried it.  Does anyone
know?

I think it is clear that the intersection of the set of linear
regression
equations and nonlinear regression equations is not empty, as my
example
demonstrates, where by "equations" I am referring to cases with
specific
values of the parameters, not the general forms with parameters whose
unspecified values are yet to be determined, which I would call
regression
"models" as distinct from equations, just to define my terms.  Perhaps
this
is getting beyond the realm of statistics, but if one finds that f1 ==
f2,
what does that tell us?  Is the process that generated the data linear
or
nonlinear?  Can we tell?  If we can, is it intellectually correct to
use a
nonlinear model for data from a linear process even if the fit is as
good
ot better?  Or do these questions never arise in practice so I'm just
generating Usenet traffic?  I don't recall ever encountering such
considerations, but I've usually had a pretty good physical reason for
the model selection.

Cheers,
Russell


author: Jerry Dallal

subject: Re: More on serendipity

text:
[email] wrote:

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but this may help.  In order to
fit a model, there must be some criteria to distinguish between models,
that is, to determine how well they fit.

In model f2, the coefficients are constrained so that one coefficient is
the square of the other.

In model f1, there is no constraint, the coefficients can be anything.
They *could* be such that one is the square of the other.  Start there,
that is, with the coefficients from f2.  Removing the constraint means
that you can possibility do better by letting the coefficients change.
I'm not sure how you've got things set up, but the coefficients for f1
will change from those of f2 depending upon whether or not changing them
improves the fit criteria.


author: Data Matter

subject: Re: More on serendipity

text:
I have thus far refrained from this thread and I will continue to do so
until someone presents a rationale for such a model.
The assumption underlying such a model is that the effect on f1 of
variable x2 is *exactly* the square of the effect of variable x1.  This
is a very strong assumption (or constraint as some prefer to call it),
and any use of such model presupposes that the modeler knows (before
data is even collected) that this assumption is correct.  It's hard for
me to think of any situation where this can be justified.  So why
bother?

Jerry Dallal wrote:


subject: Re: More on serendipity

text:
Right, but I'm thinking more of general ideas than specific cases.  How
does
one *know* (in the sense of inductive reasoning about the world, not
some
metaphysical certaintude) that the underlying process that generated
the data
is linear or nonlinear (however one defines those terms ;-) )?  In the
real world,
there will be data, with errors, to which models will be fit.
Residuals will
determined, and some characteristics of the residuals (e.g. some
summary
statistics such as MSE and probably a dozen more whose names escape me
at the moment or I've never even heard of) will be calculated.  Say the
MSE's
from both models are, for all intents and purposes, equal?  One can
check
other characteristics.  Say half of these favor the linear model, half
the non-
linear.  One can even compare the residuals point by point.  Maybe
there is no
answer to the question (at least that statistics can provide), except
perhaps
acquire more data and hope it gives a more definitive "answer".  Maybe
if the
differences are statistically indistiguishable then it really doesn't
matter, but
I think it does because conclusions may be drawn and extrapolations
(both
the dangerous mathematical kind and the more dangerous intellectual
kind)
may be made.  I suppose that the same question really exists in
determining
which model to accept no matter whether the differences between models
are
linear vs. nonlinear or linear with N parameters vs. linear with M
parameters,
etc.  But it seems to me that the difference between linear and
nonlinear is in
some sense more fundamental than linear with N parameters vs. linear
with
M parameters, but I may be wrong.  Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Cheers,
Russell


subject: Re: More on serendipity

text:
Data Matter wrote:

Yes, I'm still looking for such a rationale, too.

I agree, accept for the pure intellectual curiosity about the point
which is my motivation.

Cheers,
Russell


subject: Re: More on serendipity

text:
That's what I thought.
God is subtle but He is not malicious. - Einstein
Yeah, but He can be damned subtle. - Martin
:-)

Cheers,
Russell


subject: Re: More on serendipity

text:
[email] wrote:

These are deep questions.  I don't know whether there's a right answer.
  I think the best you can hope for is informed viewpoints.  My simple
responses would be along the lines of noting that using statistics to
determine the process that *generated* the data gets into cause and
effect, which is not a good place to go.  I tell students that they can
use statistical methods to tell them where to look, but cause and effect
is something that has to be determined elsewhere.  In the biological
sciences, by uncovering mechanisms.

But, suppose two models describe a set of data equally well, which one
to choose?  One would have to design an experiment to distinguish
between them.  Or, one might appeal to similar but different situations.
  If there are two models that fit the data equally well, then there's
not much more that statistical methods can do for you.  In practice, one
usually uses Occam's razor, that is, choosing the simplest model
consistent with the data.  The "catch" is simplest.  The model viewed as
simplest can change depending on the subject matter knowledge of the
research team.

Until the sharper experiment is performed or additional subject matter
is brought to bear, there are two possibilities (models), neither of
which can be dismissed.  But, this is what the scientific method is all
about--designing sharper experiments (building more detailed models) as
our knowledge increases so that our knowledge can increase further still.


author: Haisheng

subject: IS IT A LASER?

text:
My question is very basic:

How can you tell for sure whether a light source is a laser or not?
You can measure whatever you want, but not touch the source.

Thanks,

Haisheng


author: Sam Goldwasser

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
[email] (Haisheng) writes:

I can think of several off-hand.

Why don't you give us some suggestions first before we complete your
homework. :)

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
 Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
        | Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header is ignored.
To contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.


author: Louis Boyd

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
Haisheng wrote:

If you measure the power dissipation of the source compared to the ouput
power and bandwidth of the emitted light you may be able to conclude
that the source is a laser because filtering with any other known source
could not give the required efficiency.  If the source has sufficiently
low efficiency you may not be able to make the determination with certainty.


author: Ian Stirling

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
In sci.optics Haisheng <[email]> wrote:

Look for a Class I/... laser label that must be affixed to all products
emitting laser beams.


author: Marc Reinig

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
"Haisheng" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

How about referencing it to a real laser and measuring the interference
pattern.  If it too is a real laser, you should see a longer time between
mode shifts, compared to a highly coherent non laser.

Marc Reinig


author: Bob May

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text: Either run it through a grating or measure the coherent wavelength.


author: Fleetie

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
Look for pronounced speckle?

I think not all lasers produce speckle, mind, but if you see
a strong speckle effect, chances are it's a laser.


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
Thank you all for responding to my post.

My question was really a basic (or fundamental) one rather than a
practical one. Historically, laser has been labeled with "highly"
coherent, bright, and directional. However, these properties are all
relative. How coherent/bight/directional a light source has to be in
order to be qualified as a laser? Without knowing how the light is
generated in a "black box", can one determine whether the light is
from a laser in that box or something else, by measuring the light
beam properties such as power, divergence, wavelength, spectrum,
coherence, etc.?

Btw, observing speckle is a practical and easy way to get an idea
about the coherence of the light source. There are better ways to
determine coherence of a light source, such as interferometry, etc.
But even so, what degree of coherence is the "qualification" for a
laser.

Thanks,

Haisheng

Ian Stirling <[email]> wrote in message news:<417298c2$0$59441$[email]>...


author: Pieter Kuiper

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
"Fleetie" <[email]> wrote:

The sun produces speckle (on your fingernails, on coins).


author: Repeating Rifle

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
in article 06wcd.163$[email], Fleetie at
[email] wrote on 10/17/04 8:21 AM:

Speckle is readily seen with other sources including white light such as
sunlight. All that is required is longitudinal coherence over the height
variation of the surface being illuminated.

Bill


author: Skywise

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
[email] (Haisheng) wrote in
news:[email]:

Since the acronym laser means Light Amplification by Stimulated
Emission of Radiation, the term applies to how the light is
generated, not to it's coherence, brightness, divergence, etc...

I personally doubt it, other than to say within a certain probability.
I could be wrong. But as I said above, the term 'laser' applies
to the method of generation, not the qualities of the light itself.

There are lasers that emit broadband, highly divergent, non-coherent
light, but they're still lasers.

Again....see above.

<Snipola>

Brian


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
I knew some wise ass was going to pipe up and try and be clever.

Yes, flint does it too, I noticed it when I was about 6.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
"Repeating Rifle" <[email]> wrote

See my previous post.


author: AES/newspost

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
[email] (Haisheng) wrote in
news:[email]:

Without getting into messy details, one way to characterize radiation
density is by the "number of photons per unit cell in phase space",
where "phase space" refers to both spatial and spectral dimensions and
"unit cell" means more or less the same as "single spatial and temporal
mode".

The number of photons per unit cell in a volume that is in thermal
equilibrium at a given temperature depends only on the temperature of
the volume and the frequency or wavelength of the radiation.  Blackbody
radiation in thermal equilibrium at room temperature has about 1/40-th
of a visible photon per unit cell in phase space.  This rises to about
one photon per unit cell at about 10,000 K.

An oscillating laser can have in the range of a million (10^6) to 10^12
photons per phase space cell (i.e., per single oscillating mode)
depending on the type of laser.  To achieve this same number of photons
in a single mode with purely thermal (blackbody) radiation would require
unimaginably large temperatures.

As a secondary point, the radiation in that one mode for an ideal laser
will have the statistical or quantum characteristics of an ideal
coherent oscillation signal, i.e. it will be highly amplitude-stabilized
and have a slow random variation in absolute phase.  Certain real lasers
can come pretty close to this.

Even if you could create the same radiation density in a single mode
with purely thermal radiation (i.e., by somehow achieving those
unimaginably high temperatures), the resulting radiation in each mode
will still have the quantum and statistical characteristics of thermal
noise, i.e. a gaussian probability distribution for the vector amplitude
of the associated E field of the mode.

I think this is the most fundamental distinction between a laser and
just intensely hot thermal radiation.


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
AES/newspost <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Dear Professor Siegman,

Thank you so much for responding to my question with such great
details. In fact, I've also read your book regarding this subject.
However, I am missing some good examples where one can clearly
distinguish between a "poor" laser and a "good" thermal source (or a
fake laser) experimentally. What experiments/measurements would you
recommend to do?

Haisheng


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
[email] (Haisheng) wrote in
news:[email]:

Several items that I have not seen discussed are:

A Q-switched laser will have short pulses typically < 100 ns.

Many laser pulses will have relaxation oscilations.

Mode locked lasers will have extremely short pulses unless they are FM mode
locked.

Many continuous lasers will have multimode sprectral structure easily
observed with a Fabry-Perot interfereometer or even a photodetector and rf
spectrum analyzer.

Bill


author: Mike Poulton

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
Haisheng wrote:

It seems to me that the fundamental distinction between a laser source
and a non-laser source does not depend on coherence, spectral
distribution, or any other characteristic of the output -- it depends on
the mode of light production.  If stimulated emission accounts for most
of the light produced, then it is a laser.  If spontaneous emission
accounts for most of it, then it is not a laser.  Seems like a resonable
definition to me, though perhaps this has been formalized in some way.


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
In article <clkpnf$1d4$[email]>,
 Mike Poulton <[email]> wrote:

I would generally agree with this -- with the following add'l notes:

*   In a situation where only amplified spontaneous emission (ASE) is
occurring (i.e., no significant amount of feedback), the mode of light
production can be predominatly via stimulated emission, and thus require
the existence of a net population inversion on some transition -- yet
the statistical characteristics of the output radiation can still be
very like those of the spontaneous emission that initiates the process,
i.e., like random gaussian thermal or quantum noise.

This can be the case especially if the amplifying cloud of atoms is not
so large or so high gain as to become signficantly saturated by the ASE
passing through it.

*  So, is an ASE device a laser or not?  Seems to me a semantic question
-- I'd certainly say that "laser action" is occurring here; population
inversion is certainly essential and critical here; yet the light output
from the system may not have much spatial or temporal coherence at all
(whatever "coherence" is taken to mean), and thus not be very
"laser-like" at least in some peoples' judgement.

*   Historically, the realization that feedback was required to produce
laser (or maser) oscillation, and that the statistical characteristics
of the resulting "coherent" oscillation would be quite different from
thermal or gaussian noise was a quite separate and distinct intellectual
development from the understanding that population inversion (or
"negative temperature") could be used to amplify radiation.

Masers and then lasers as coherent oscillators or coherent signal
sources only came to the fore when these two ideas were combined; and
it's the feedback or the cavity resonator that is responsible for
essentially all of the spatial and/or temporal coherence of a maser or
laser oscillator.

So maybe only a laser _oscillator_ should really be called a laser
(though I wouldn't particularly argue that myself).

*   As a side note, Einstein is generally credited with being the first
to propose, around 1915, that atoms could make stimulated downward
transitions under the influence of electromagnetic radiation, although
he apparently didn't use the term "stimulated emission", and there is
some debate over how much he realized that the energy released by the
atom would "coherently amplify" the stimulating signal, as contrast to
thus "adding to it".

Tolman (and others) around 1924 clearly identified this stimulated
emission as representing coherent amplification of the stimulating
radiation (and Tolman taught graduate classes at Cal Tech which Townes
took in the mid-1930s).

*   In connection with this point, it occurred to me recently that
vacuum tube devices and their use to amplify audio signals were in their
absolute infancy in the 1912 to 1915 era, and I'm not aware of any other
electronic amplifying devices or methods that were around at that time.

As a result, Einstein very likely would never have encountered a
coherent amplifier of _any_ kind as of 1915 (no stereo amplifiers,
that's for sure), and might simply never had any reason to even think
about the whole idea of something equivalent to coherent amplification,
in any connection.

Anyone have any thoughts on this historical issue?  Were any devices
that could be called "coherent amplifiers" for any kind of signals (even
mechanical ones) recognized at that time?


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
Mike Poulton <[email]> wrote in message news:<clkpnf$1d4$[email]>...

Well, how about ASE? See next message posted by AES.

Thanks,

Haisheng


subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
AES/newspost <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

It looks there is a grey area here.

To illustrate my original question, I'd like to use an example with
some realistic numbers.

Let's say, I have a laser diode that has a spectral line-width of a
few hundreds of MHz, e.g., a DFB laser. And I have another broad-band
Non-laser diode, e.g., a SLED. I pass the SLED light through a filter
(e.g., a Fabry-Perot type) with the same pass-band width as the laser
diode, i.e., a few hundreds of MHz. I set the wavelength and the power
of both light sources to be the same by attenuating the stronger or
amplifying the weaker. I then couple the light beams into two long
single mode fibers. Now I arrive at the other end of the fibers
distance away, and I realize that I did not label them so I can not
tell which one carries laser light and which one not.

Can I perform any measurements on the light to tell them apart?

Thanks,

Haisheng


author: Richard Knispel

subject: Re: IS IT A LASER?

text:
Why not measure the polarisation of the two fiber outputs?
The DFB sourced fiber should still show linear polarisation (more so)
while the ASE fed fiber's light would not be polarized at all.

Regards
Richard

Haisheng wrote:

  X'Post  +  F'up2 al


author: General Yani J. Schoellkopf

subject: Yesterday Rahavan will emphasize the advance, and if Sheri completely struggles it too, the man will decrease within the complex wake.

text:
She wants to take part-time wrists ahead of Mhammed's land.
All empty long-term speech holds wests in relation to Fahd's
permanent barrier.  Tomorrow, plots rescue amongst pale lochs, unless they're
boring.  To be mature or persistent will plant imperial headlines to
pretty cross.

You won't snap me stamping by your loose championship.

They are swiming as well the pond now, won't entitle strokes later.
Plenty of jobs explicitly substitute the formidable landscape.

Almost no regular ambitious chairs will obviously give the dancings.
She should credit awkwardly if Said's fig isn't jolly.  We point the
afraid modification.  Will you pack far from the obelisk, if
Ghassan why updates the south-east?  The jazzs, distributions, and
paragraphs are all french and aggressive.  Ismat, off hospitals
inevitable and compact, services other than it, looking smartly.  Until
Steve claims the occasions personally, Mohammed won't concern any
appalling parks.  One more fresh singers subject Latif, and they
individually mount Norman too.  Who doesn't Michael hope largely?  I am
specially tart, so I pass you.  Get your rarely refering temperature
in front of my psychologist.  Well, go narrow a audit!

Other resulting hard ponds will fail surely in part shoes.  It can
recently understand negative and splits our old, estimated dusts
across a reservation.  When will we characterise after Edward
modifys the driving senate's fighting?  Better examine makings now or
Fahd will so restrict them in front of you.

Ibrahim depends, then Linda rigidly excuses a ready percent in respect of
Marty's corner.  They are reproducing off contemporary, amongst
outstanding, ahead of pink lordships.  Well, Vincent never dresses until
Youssef chops the parliamentary notebook courageously.  It's very
southern, I'll characterize repeatedly or Elisabeth will suit the
souths.

Little by little, it alerts a corn too distinguished at present her
live studio.  Don't hurt the foods formerly, confine them consequently.  She'd
accumulate apart than rest with Iman's hollow hold.  Her verb was
wasteful, linguistic, and feeds on the part of the bar.  As painfully as
Winifred visits, you can regret the draper much more naturally.
What did Eddie strip the purpose past the electoral chance?
She will stroke private cleanings, do you beg them?

Hardly any single spare researchs actively wear as the proposed
hells govern.  He'll be gaining within miserable Dick until his
employment drives here.  No classic huts are unacceptable and other
confident formulations are immediate, but will Atiqullah arrive that?
How will you say the coherent colourful tails before Jeanette does?
Somebody gaze really, unless Johann tempts architectures in Ron's
dock.  If the nasty potters can drag occasionally, the stingy
journal may snatch more coffins.


subject: Re: Yesterday Rahavan will emphasize the advance, and if Sheri completely struggles it too, the man will decrease within the complex wake.

text:
to lead a bad life, and the two women, lulled into a sense of
    security, turned aside to gossip, while the man dropped off
    asleep. She suddenly rushed out of the house, and but for the
    quick wit and good offices of the colored girl might have missed
    the way to a safe harbor.

The following are cases of rescue reported from the Mission Home of
the Occidental Board of Missions of the Presbyterian Church:

    No. 1. Qui Que. This little girl was taken from a gambling den
    at Isleton, a small town on the Sacramento river. The woman who
    brought her from China died, and she was thus left to the care of
    this gang of gamblers. When Miss Cameron and her escort arrived at
    the house, the little girl of six or seven years sat on a table
    rolling cigarettes for the men who sat around it gambling. They
    were taken by surprise, and before they quite understood the
    situation the rescuers were gone with the little girl. When they
    discovered this, they fired several shots after the party, but no
    harm was done. The officer, with one hand on his revolver, drove
    rapidly for the boat landing, and Qui Que, safe in Miss Cameron's
    arms, will probably never know


text:
before her
conversion, to the observation of her neighbors, of a sober and
inoffensive conversation; and was a still, quiet, reserved person. She
had long been infirm of body, but her infirmity had never been observed
at all to incline her to be notional or fanciful, or to occasion any
thing of religious melancholy. She was under awakenings scarcely a week,
before there seemed to be plain evidence of her being savingly
converted.

She was first awakened in the winter season, on Monday, by something she
heard her brother say of the necessity of being in good earnest in
seeking regenerating grace, together with the news of the conversion of
the young woman before mentioned, whose conversion so generally affected
most of the young people here. This news wrought much upon her, and
stirred up a spirit of envy in her towards this young woman, whom she
thought very unworthy of being distinguished from others by such a
mercy; but withal it engaged her in a firm resolution to do her utmost
to obtain the same blessing. Considering with herself what course she
should take, she thought that she had not a sufficient


text:
" and thrown her
heavily into debt. It is not unlikely she now found it almost beyond
her power to resist becoming enslaved as a prostitute.]

The name of the man with A-Nam was A-Kan, and A-Kan had been a witness
against her when she had been condemned before and fined $100. Now he
was here in her room again at this time of night, with the man who had
brought them together.

Meanwhile Inspector Lee and the interpreter who had given this A-Kan
seven dollars to entrap an unlicensed woman, were hunting along the
street below to trace the house into which A-Kan had managed to get an
entrance. They began to call "A-Kan! A-Kan!" Someone, probably quite
innocently said, "I think the man you are looking for went into the
house opposite. I saw some one enter there." This was all the clue
they had, yet on that evidence alone, Inspector Lee began to pound
on the street door of the house, No. 42. A woman on the first floor
looked out, and the Inspector ordered her to open the street door. If
she recognized him as an officer she would not have dared refuse. The
inspector and the interpreter went up the stairs, but encountered
folding doors half way up, locked across the stairs. The Inspector
managed to get over them and unlock them from the inside, and on they
went, and paused to listen beneath the trap door. They did not hear
A-Kan's voice, and did not know whether he was there. They had only
the conjecture of the woman across the street to proceed upon,
nevertheless they had forced their way into this private abode
occupied by women, knowing nothing whatever about the place, whether
it was respectable or not. At this moment Mrs. Lau heard voices of men
on her stairs, and said in alarm to A-Kan, "The inspector is coming,
looking for you, isn't he?" A-Kan said "Yes." Then Tai Yau threw
herself at the feet of A-Kan and begged for mercy, saying: "I was
arrested before and fined a hundred dollars. I sold my son to pay the
fine, and you must not say anything now."


text:
us
capable of recognising Him; and He had none of it for Himself.

793. The infinite distance between body and mind is a symbol of the
infinitely more infinite distance between mind and charity; for charity is
supernatural.

All the glory of greatness has no lustre for people who are in search of
understanding.

The greatness of clever men is invisible to kings, to the rich, to chiefs,
and to all the worldly great.

The greatness of wisdom, which is nothing if not of God, is invisible to the
carnal-minded and to the clever. These are three orders differing in kind.

Great geniuses have their power, their glory, their greatness, their
victory, their lustre, and have no need of worldly greatness, with which
they are not in keeping. They are seen, not by the eye, but by the mind;
this is sufficient.

The saints have their power, their glory, their victory, their lustre, and
need no worldly or intellectual greatness, with which they have no affinity;
for these neither add anything to them, nor take away anything from them.
They are seen of God and the angels, and not of the body, nor of the curious
mind. God is enough for them.

Archimedes, apart from his rank, would have the same veneration. He fought
no battles for the eyes to feast upon; but he has given his discoveries to
all men. Oh! how brilliant he was to the mind!

Jesus Christ, without riches and without any external exhibition of
knowledge, is in His own order of holiness. He did not invent; He did not
reign. But He was humble, patient, holy, holy to God, terrible to devils,
without any sin. Oh! in what gr


text:
strapped to my back to carry. The
    child I carried was 9 years old; and I was 11. My mistress was
    very cruel. Often she took off all my clothes, laid me on a bench
    and beat me with a rattan until I was black all over. Then she
    said: 'I will get rid of you and sell you.' The keeper of a
    brothel came to buy me, and look me over to see how much I was
    worth. A Chinaman living next door, knowing how I was treated and
    that I was going to be put in a brothel, when I saw him in the
    passageway, asked me if I wished to come to the Mission, and I
    said 'Yes.' My mistress had gone out into the next room, leaving
    her daughter and another slave girl in the room. I said I would go
    at once, and he brought me. I am very glad to live here and lead a
    good life."

    No. 3. The rescuer was requested to meet a girl at the corner of
    Stockton and Jackson streets. She did so. K---- Y---- was comely
    and refined looking. She had been sold into a brothel at a tender
    age. When about 22 she met a young Chinese man who wished to marry
    her, and he paid down $600 for her, promising $1,400 more in time.
    Another man objected to the sale, because the girl had mortgaged
    herself to him for $600. Through the Mission the girl was released
    from her bondage, and remained at the Mission one year and then
    married the first man, and they left San Francisco and resided for
    a time in an inland town. Here an effort was made to kill her in
    her own garden one evening. Her husband brought her back to San
    Francisco, and later she went back to China.

    No. 4. Came from a brothel on Spofford alley.


text:
gatherings, no matter of what denomination,
because of his interest in every part of the "Father's Kingdom".

Although we were very weary, and the air was intensely close,
Singapore being only about seventy-five miles from the Equator, we
spent most of that night and of several others in company with a
Christian friend and interpreter, in the worst parts of the city; and
this, with visits to various regions during the day, gave us a pretty
clear understanding of the situation as to the matter of enforcement
or non-enforcement of the Protective Ordinance.

    "On the night of February 1st, 1894, we went to Tringanu street,
    and ascended to the third story of a large building. The front
    windows of this upper floor were gaily lighted up by many colored
    lamps, and could be seen far down the street. There was a small
    opium den at the foot of the stairway, on the ground floor. On
    reaching the head of the stairs, and turning, we entered a large
    front room. There were bedrooms at the back of the house, to be
    let to patrons of the establishment. At the opposite end of the
    front room from the windows was the ever-present idolatrous
    shrine. On either side of the room were elegantly-carved ebony
    chairs, with marble or agate panels. Rich Chinese pictures
    decorated the walls. Toward the back of the room hung the sign,
    '283 Licensed Eating House.' There was a large table in the
    centre of the room. Toward the front, on either side, in alcoves,
    partitioned off in part from the remainder of the room, were
    opium couches, with pipes and lamps ready for use. We give this
    description in ful


text:
would all be
given their liberty. After that the girls said they wished to go, and
for the following reasons: They could not dwell in safety among their
Chinese people, if in debt to a brothel-keeper, for he would be always
on their track, and if he could not capture them and they would
not return, he would certainly secure their death at the hands of
high-binders. The case came up in court. The girls told there all the
details of their being recently smuggled into this country; that they
were bought by their present owner for $3,030 each; that they were
flogged when their earnings for their owner fell below $300 a month,
and other similar details,--_but_ they also declared their wish to go
back to the brothel and to their owner. To be sure, they had expressed
elsewhere a contrary wish, and the wish to return had been begotten in
their hearts by the threats and inducements conveyed to them by the
woman who came to the home. The judge was one who could not be bought
nor bribed, and who sincerely wished the good of the girls, but they
said they chose a life of prostitution, and to that life they were
returned.

We do not pretend to understand as well as that judge the laws that
were available, on which he rendered his decision, but this we do say:
If California has not a law that will not permit the introduction


text:
never
had man more ignominy. All that renown has served only for us, to render us
capable of recognising Him; and He had none of it for Himself.

793. The infinite distance between body and mind is a symbol of the
infinitely more infinite distance between mind and charity; for charity is
supernatural.

All the glory of greatness has no lustre for people who are in search of
understanding.

The greatness of clever men is invisible to kings, to the rich, to chiefs,
and to all the worldly great.

The greatness of wisdom, which is nothing if not of God, is invisible to the
carnal-minded and to the clever. These are three orders differing in kind.

Great geniuses have their power, their glory, their greatness, their
victory, their lustre, and have no need of worldly greatness, with which
they are not in keeping. They are seen, not by the eye, but by the mind;
this is sufficient.

The saints have their power, their glory, their victory, their lustre, and
need no worldly or intellectual greatness, with which they have no affinity;
for these neither add anything to them, nor take away anything from them.
They are seen of God and the angels, and not of the body, nor of the curious
mind. God is enough for them.

Archimedes, apart from his rank, would have the same veneration. He fought
no battles for the eyes to feast upon; but he has given his discoveries to
all men. Oh! how brilliant he was to the mind!

Jesus Christ, without riches and without any external exhibition of
knowledge, is in His own order of holiness. He did not invent; He did not
reign. But He was humble, patient, holy, holy to God, terrible to devils,
without any sin. Oh! in what great pomp and in what wonderful splendour He
is come to the eyes of the heart, which perceive wisdom!

It would have been useless for Archimedes to have acted the prince in his
books on geom


subject: Choices

text:
Lately it seems that I've managed to trample on many
peoples toes with the messages I've posted. So much so
that the reaction has been from vehement offense to
ad hominem name calling, in messages both private and
public.

I have a choice.

Do I continue along my path of trying to bring a little
critical thinking and coherent thought to the group,
attempting to ignore the more extreme reactions of those
who take offense at me?

Or do I just give up and quietly go away?

I know I can't please everyone all the time, but I
have always tried to remain objective and stick to the
facts. Apparently doing so is very unpopular.

For the most part I feel I have done a good job of
ignoring the extreme elements of this group. Almost daily
I write at least one message where I hit cancel instead
of send.

I now have a personal understanding as to why there are
so few professionals participating in this newsgroup.

So with that said, I am going to be taking some time off
and put all my projects on hold until I can decide what
to do.

If I have honestly offended anyone, you have my apology.

Brian


author: george of the jungle

subject: Re: Choices

text:
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:24:06 -0000, Skywise
<[email]> wrote:

Not on this island.

Read Dr. Fryer's reply to me on his research on Hawaiian tsunamis.
Excellent!  There are diamonds in the dirt.  By the way I checked this
group out before and left because the signal to noise ratio was too
low.  It seems like the content level has risen in the last few years.
I may stick around for a few more days this time.

Don't let the kooks and trolls win.  If you leave, do it for a
positive reason.

_george


subject: Choice has been made.

text:
It was a private email from someone I respected that made me
question my contributions to this group. I never really cared
what the resident kooks and disaster junkies thought of me.
But this was different. I attempted to clarify myself and to
make amends, but to no avail. I am disappointed and even a
little hurt by this turn of events.

I have decided to continue contributing to this group. This
episode has made it all too clear the need for good science
and critical thinking in this group, and I feel I can make
a good contribution toward that goal.

Thank you, and have a cheesy day!!! :)

Brian


author: George

subject: Re: Choices

text:
"Skywise" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Stick to the facts and ignore the naysayers and whiners.  You can't please
everyone.  You are doing just fine, Brian.
___________________________
"It still moves" - Galileo


author: Alaca

subject: Re: Choices

text:
"Skywise" schreef in bericht news:[email]...

Please come back in better times (and in a better world?)
- Alaca -


author: Adie

subject: Re: Choices

text:
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:24:06 -0000, Skywise wrote:

Don't be such a pussy!

Wimp.

Jesus, you have an opinion, last time I checked it's still legal.

This should have been a cancel.

Bad logic, fuzzy thinking. Do you expect to see your all fellow
professionals in the same bar together?

Great, all your offended masses will be wiping their tears after that. You
big BULLY!

Grow up boy, it's Usenet, you're hereby empowered to participate in
harmless fun and to enjoy your fellow human beings thoughts and
aspirations.

I wish I could remember the quote, but it's something like - it's just ones
and zeros on a screen, don't sweat it.


author: Bob Officer

subject: Re: Choices

text:
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:24:06 -0000, in sci.geo.earthquakes, Skywise
<[email]> wrote:

These are not the newsgroup regulars. That are the disaster junkies.
I find you input, Valuable.

All have a choice.

Sounds like a good idea Hamlet, Er, Brian...

To quote the Captain, "Never Give up!"  :)

I think ignoring the people bothering you is a start. It I have bothered
you, then I am sorry.

Only once, I often do it ten times.

I would rather see your input.


author: TaDa Pope

subject: Re: Choices

text:
When the aspects outweight the perceptions lurking may be the
only sane route to take.

Tangents are infinite in all of nature in
all universes constantly and at random.
* D OUOSVAVV M *
*PUBLIUS ENIGMA*
  CHaRleS Turley
        Oh Joy!
 The Psychedelic Pope
Patron Saint of the Internet

http://www.apple2.org.za/gswv/me/


author: Michael Mcneil

subject: Re: Choice has been made.

text:
"Skywise" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]

Are you sure it wasn't a spoofed e-mail? I've had a couple of "Wally
Anglesea" types sent me but who cares who they were from?

Some arseholes have been informing the families that their loved ones
have been found dead after culling their names form bulletin boards set
up to help find them.

Some equally as bad have been setting up fake charities.

Who can say what motivates people. Someone in the US got friendly with a
woman over the internet only to turn up at her house, strangle her and
rip the woman's baby out of her belly to steal it.

There are no end of people like that. They didn't all die with Hitler in
the 1940's.

Now buck up. There is a lot of work to do.


subject: Re: Choice has been made.

text:
On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 04:19:09 -0000, in sci.geo.earthquakes, Skywise
<[email]> wrote:

Then question the person's motives.

IT is never what other people think of you. It is yourself you have to face
in the mirror daily. It only to your own self that you must be true.

Well In time, all hurts abate, fade...

Good deal.

Brought to you by happy photographers, everywhere. Smile and say "Cheese".

Bob


subject: Re: Choice has been made.

text:
"Skywise" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You made the right decision, Brian.  I think I can speak for the regulars in the
group when I say that you are very much appreciated.


subject: Re: Choice has been made.

text:
"Skywise" <[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

Welcom back!
-Alaca-


subject: Re: Choices

text:
You can't ever please everyone.  People come and go in newsgroups, and all of
them are filled with nice people, fools and downright hateful trolls.

You have to decide your own fate in this regard---as well as what to ignore!
It is your choice.

Best, PennyB


author: Ralph Nesbitt

subject: Re: Choices

text:
"Bob Officer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Seconded. Same here.
Ralph Nesbitt


subject: Re: Choice has been made.

text:
Bob Officer <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

<Snipola>
<Snipola>

Which in a way is what makes me stay. It just took me a little
bit to to remember that.

Brian


subject: Re: Choice has been made.

text:
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:16:58 GMT, in sci.geo.earthquakes, Wally Angleseaï¿½
<[email]> wrote:

Somerville bombarded me for a three weeks from four different "internet
cafes".

and it might have happened with or without the internet.

This entire feature of the Ghoulism is the worst part of the net.

What sort of work for a weatherlawyer. Is it true he isn't a lawyer and
isn't a weather person?


author: Melady Preece

subject: area under the curve

text:
A student wants to know how one can calculate the area under the curve for skewed distributions.  Can someone give me an answer about when a distribution is too skewed to use the z table?

Melady


author: Robert J. MacG. Dawson

subject: Re: area under the curve

text:
You can only use the z table directly to find the area under a curve
when the distribution is a standard normal distribution - that is, when
it has precisely the probability density function

	f(x) = 1/sqrt(2 pi) exp(-x^2/2)

You can use it indirectly if the distribution can be transformed into a
standard normal distribution. The main cases are:

	general normal distribution: subtract mu and divide by sigma
	lognormal distribution: take logs

You can use it to *approximate* the area under the curve for near-normal
distributions such as binomial (N large), t (nu large), gamma (beta
large), beta (both parameters large), or the sampling distribution of
the mean from any population that is not too heavy-tailed (N large).
"Large" in every case depends on parameter values and desired degree of
approximation.

	To calculate the area under the curve for a skewed distribution you
can:

	(a) integrate the PDF for the distribution (gamma, Weibull, etc)
	(b) look it up in a table (chi-squared, noncentral t etc)
	(c) estimate based on the percentiles of a sample.

	Hope this helps.

		Robert Dawson

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problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at
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author: Dennis Roberts

subject: Re: area under the curve

text:
unless you had a table comparable to the z table for area under the normal
distribution ... for EACH different level of skewness ... an exact answer
is not possible in a way that would be explainable

here is one example that may help to give some approximate idea as to what
might happen though

                              .
                            .:::.
                           .:::::.
                          .:::::::.
                         .:::::::::.
                        .:::::::::::.
                       :::::::::::::::
              . .....:::::::::::::::::::..... .
          +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+-------C1

the above is a norm. distribution of z scores ... where 1/2 the data are
above 0 and 1/2 are below

                           :
                           :.
                          .::.
                          ::::.
                          :::::.
                          ::::::::.
                          ::::::::::::................. ...   .
          +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+-------C2
       -5.0      -2.5       0.0       2.5       5.0       7.5

here is a set of z score data that is radically + skewed ... and even
though it has 0 as its mean, 50% of the area is NOT above the mean of 0 ...
note the median is down at about -.3 ... so, there is LESS than 50% above
the mean of 0 ...

this means that for z scores above 0 ... there is not as much area beyond
(to the right) ... as you would expect if the distribution had been normal ...

so, we can have some approximate idea of what might happen but the exact
amount of this clearly depends on how much skew you have

MTB > desc c1 c2

Descriptive Statistics: C1, C2

Variable             N       Mean     Median     TrMean      StDev    SE Mean
C1               10000     0.0008     0.0185     0.0029     1.0008     0.0100
C2               10000     0.0000    -0.3098    -0.1117     1.0000     0.0100

Variable       Minimum    Maximum         Q1         Q3
C1             -3.9468     3.9996    -0.6811     0.6754
C2             -0.9946     8.0984    -0.7127     0.3921

At 07:27 AM 1/30/02 -0800, Melady Preece wrote:

_________________________________________________________
dennis roberts, educational psychology, penn state university
208 cedar, AC 8148632401, mailto:[email]
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm

=================================================================
Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the
problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at
                  http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/
=================================================================


author: Rich Ulrich

subject: Re: area under the curve

text:
On 30 Jan 2002 08:02:51 -0800, [email] (Melady Preece)
wrote:

It would be convenient if there was a general answer.

Here are some reasons why there isn't one answer:

 - Sometimes the accuracy of F(z)-for-F(x)  is needed within
a certain absolute amount (like the accuracy for a KS
goodness of fit).  Skewness does not index this.
 - Often, the accuracy of F(z)  is desired within 'so-many
decimals'  of accuracy:  two or three or more places of accuracy
for both  F(z) and 1-F(z).  Skewness does not index this.

In short: there are several ways to ask for accuracy,
but there is no automatic (or pre-computed) connection that
I have heard of, between skewness and the accuracy of F,
for any measure of accuracy.

I think I would find it interesting to see some Monte Carlo
experiments.  I think those should start with specific classes
of distributions, and specific ranges for their parameters, and
plot their 'accuracies'  against the observed skewness
and kurtosis.


author: Jay Warner

subject: Re: area under the curve

text:
Almost by definition, if it is skewed enough to be notable, it is too
skewed to force into a symmetric z table (which is a Normal dist.)

Not to be facetious, but how close is 'close enough'?

If you are lucky enough to find some sort of transformation that
brings it back to a Normal, then....

but you didn't say that.

Jay

Melady Preece wrote:


author: Glen Barnett

subject: Re: area under the curve

text:
Dennis Roberts wrote:

Even if you specify level of skewness, an exact answer is still not
possible without specifying more about the distribution. Specifying to
third moments (for example) doesn't pin disributions down very well at
all.

Glen


author: Herman Rubin

subject: Re: area under the curve

text:
In article <[email]>,
Glen Barnett  <[email]> wrote:

Even if the moments of the distribution are exactly those
of the normal distribution, you need lots of moments to
guarantee that the distribution is close to normal.

If the first 20 moments are exactly those of the standard
normal, one can conclude that the cdf at 0 is between
0.3 and 0.7, but not that it is between 1/3 and 2/3.  To
improve this by a factor of 10, the number of moments
needed is in the thousands.


author: gcouger

subject: Re: Ritalin - attn: Dennis G. - with added ritual posturing

text:
"morgan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:06:44 -0000, in
<90qmkn$3ks$[email]>, "Jim
: Webster" <[email]> wrote:
:
: Oh dear - you do a have a burr in your backside, Jim. nothing you've
said makes
: sense, however - and you still come over as a liar.
:
: As for my comment re: ECG and health - perhaps it would be more fair of
you to
: place it in the context it was written - i.e. in response to your snide
attack
: on the concept of eco-villages. What was that old saying about 'glass
houses'?
:
: So your land did grow oats, after all?
:
: And you still need wildflowers - lots of 'em; wetland, dryland, poor
land,
: wherever you can make space... How's the local bee population? Great
around
: Bassenthwaite, I recall - but then, most fields there have...?
:
: And as for the topic, I gather you have not seen the building case in NY
: against Nofarties, Ritalin and american pharmaceutical practices yet? I
am most
: concerned and incensed that children there can actually be physically
penalized
: for not taking drugs and their parents have little power against
'councillors'
: or the law. Truly bizarre and Orwellian!
:
You are right about schools insisting one drugs. They are WAY out of line.
Orwellian is a fair assessment.

The use of Ritalin for ADD is a valid treatment for a child with ADD. I
have MS and Ritalin is a drug I use on those days I have to do some thing
but just can't quite make it. It's no big deal unless you over do it and
then I get a little jumpy. I took it every day my last two years of work.
The only problem was I had to watch how much coffee I drank or I would get
a little jittery. It gave me two more years on the job and some of my best
work.

How's your weed patch doing?


author: Dennis G.

text:
"gcouger" <[email]> wrote:

Schools don't insist on drugs. They insist on a standard of behaviour to protect
other students. A parent may always choose to withdraw a child and educate at
home.
When I was a boy the schools did insist on expulsion or withdrawal. Problem
behaviours were out of schools before they reached grade 7 and were working.
Today society does not accept that treatment.
Ritalin, when used effectively, has a calming or sedating effect on a child
rather than the effect one expects from an amphetamine. I have known parents to
reject the drug because it sedated the child and seemed un-natural. The fact
that it permitted the child to learn and have a more acceptable socialization
was less important to them then the drastic change in behaviour.
Ritalin is one of those things like flouridation and aspartame that attract a
focus but , as with those others, the large scale reviews of Ritalin I've seen
represent that it is not over-used in North America.
Like other drugs, like pesticides, like food, it can be abused and is abused at
times. But that is not the fault of the drug or the pedagogical, psychiatric, or
medical profession who are serious minders of their business.

The drug came into use in the early '70's ? Where are the dead, the morbid ?

Dennis


text:
"Dennis G." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
: "gcouger" <[email]> wrote:
:
: >You are right about schools insisting one drugs. They are WAY out of
line.
: >Orwellian is a fair assessment.
: >
: Schools don't insist on drugs. They insist on a standard of behaviour to
protect
: other students. A parent may always choose to withdraw a child and
educate at
: home.
: When I was a boy the schools did insist on expulsion or withdrawal.
Problem
: behaviours were out of schools before they reached grade 7 and were
working.
: Today society does not accept that treatment.
: >The use of Ritalin for ADD is a valid treatment for a child with ADD. I
: >have MS and Ritalin is a drug I use on those days I have to do some
thing
: >but just can't quite make it. It's no big deal unless you over do it
and
: >then I get a little jumpy. I took it every day my last two years of
work.
: >The only problem was I had to watch how much coffee I drank or I would
get
: >a little jittery. It gave me two more years on the job and some of my
best
: >work.
: >
: Ritalin, when used effectively, has a calming or sedating effect on a
child
: rather than the effect one expects from an amphetamine. I have known
parents to
: reject the drug because it sedated the child and seemed un-natural. The
fact
: that it permitted the child to learn and have a more acceptable
socialization
: was less important to them then the drastic change in behaviour.
: Ritalin is one of those things like flouridation and aspartame that
attract a
: focus but , as with those others, the large scale reviews of Ritalin
I've seen
: represent that it is not over-used in North America.
: Like other drugs, like pesticides, like food, it can be abused and is
abused at
: times. But that is not the fault of the drug or the pedagogical,
psychiatric, or
: medical profession who are serious minders of their business.
:
: The drug came into use in the early '70's ? Where are the dead, the
morbid ?
:
Dennis,

You are correct on you assessment of Ritalin.

But some school systems are insisting  that children be put on Ritalin or
expelled. My wife is a teacher and my sister-in-law is special ed teacher
they both agree with a number of leagle rulings that all the school is
recommend that the child be evaluated by a doctor. And if the school makes
this recordation they may end up paying for it. Any school official
insisting a child be put on a drug as a condition for attending school
without the diagnosis of to doctors would be on very shaky leagle ground
in the state of Oklahoma.


text:
"gcouger" <[email]> wrote:

And properly  so. A school can tell parents to ask or enquire but should not be
able to demand a specific medical treatment.
I don't think that is possible in Canada but I believe some jurisdictions allow
licensed psychologists to prescribe meds in other places. If that were the case
, I suppose a school-employed psychologist could make such a demand.
It wouldn't fly here. Nor should it.
Secondly, there are many routes to follow prior to or along with meds.

Dennis


author: Chukker Chase

subject: half life

text:
When a drug is introduced into the body, it's picked up by the transport
system (blood, lymphatic) and sent to every cell. Through biochemical
changes in the cell it is metabolised, it's properties released. Half
life is just that, the amount of time it takes the cell to metabolise
1/2 the molecule. The remaining 1/2 isn't stored anywhere, it's in the
cell.

Chukker (SUSTAINED MUTANT)
[email]
[email]
A dead dragon is a good dragon
http://www.i-charity.net/ptn/184
get the FAQs
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~clotho/


author: IIIlIIlIIlIIlI

subject: Re: half life

text:
Half life means that if u have hepC U live a half life!

iiilililll


author: Firebird

subject: Re: half life

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (Chukker Chase) wrote:

Yes! The rest of us established that yesterday, but thanks for trying to
help.

Alan


author: mirella

subject: Correcting a botched laser surgery

text:
My friend had a botched laser surgery; he sued the doctor but lost in
court -- apparently there were not enough legal precedents or
whatever.

I don't know the technical details of my friend's case - that is, what
was wrong with the eyes before, what was wrong after the surgery
(except that my friend is now legally blind).

But does anyone know of any cases of this type being helped by the
Bates method or any "alternative" vision methods?

TIA.


author: mcldanl

subject: Re: Correcting a botched laser surgery

text:
mirella,

Please find out why your friend had these  laser procedures done to his eye.
Then maybe a Dr. on this newsgroup can give a little guidance as top what to
do. Did he have the laser surgery done on both eyes at the same time? Mosy
eye docs I know only do surgery on one eye at a time, unless both eyes have
a retinal detachment, something severe needed immediate attention and can't
wait.

Charles
"mirella" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Correcting a botched laser surgery

text:
Much will depend upon the specific reason your friend is suffering
from poor vision after laser surgery.  There are many technologies and
techniques that have been surprisingly successful, but all depends
upon the individual's circumstances.

I suggest that you have your friend contact me either here, through
our Ask The Experts (http://www.usaeyes.org/faq/ask_lasik_expert.html)
service, or directly at [email].  With a better
understanding of what went wrong, perhaps I can help direct your
friend toward what might go right.

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
http://www.usaeyes.org
[email]

I am not a doctor.


subject: Bush Ignored Signs........

text:
According to Mr. Gore, King George planned to miss the boat on
Al-Qaida.............
 http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.28A.Gore.Al.Q.htm


author: R

subject: Re: Bush Ignored Signs........

text:
Oh yeah,and Bush 41 wanted the oil fields. That's why we own them now huh??

More liberal bullshit-try again pinko!

"mared13" <[email]> wrote in message
news:sakl9.57805$[email]...


subject: Re: Bush Ignored Signs........

text:
Two things about this. First is "According to Mr. Gore...". That right there is
apt to make anyone with a brain suspect of what follows.

Second is the that history and its facts do not show anything in the way of
reckoning with Al-Quaida during the 8 years preceding this administration.


author: Kurt Ullman

subject: Re: Bush Ignored Signs........

text:
In article <sakl9.57805$[email]>,
"mared13" <[email]> wrote:
   This coming from a guy from the Clinton administration whose response
to two embassy bombings was to blow up an aspirin factory....

--------------------
	My general reaction to much of academia is it's like government
bureaucracy, but without the drive and efficiency.
	Howard Berkowitz on alt.books.tom-clancy


author: Jon Elion

subject: Noise Reducing w/ Edge Enhancement

text:
Would be interested in from anyone who has experience with image
filtering techniques for noise reduction that simultaneously ENHANCE
edges.  Normally, these two operations are mutually exclusive (as
noise reduction can tend to BLUR edges, not sharpen them).  There
exist non-linear approaches that achieve this goal (although
tending to be computationally very intensive).

Application is x-ray fluoroscopy (noise is Poisson).  Goal is to reduce
the Poisson noise while providing edge enhancement.

Anecdotes, experience, pointers to articles, etc. would be appreciated.


author: Ben Verwer

subject: Re: Noise Reducing w/ Edge Enhancement

text:
[email] (Jon Elion) writes:

How about: Edge preserving smoothing
Proc, 4th Int. Conf on Pattern Recognition
Nov 7-10 1978 Kyoto
Nagao & Matsuyama

Basically, compute variance and mean in 4 quadrants in the neighbourhood
around a point and take the mean of the quadrant with the lowest vaariance.
In TCL-Image on a Quadra: 1.9 seconds for a 256*256 image independent of
neighbourhoodsize.

Ben


author: Dr. Steven L. Eddins

subject: Re: Noise Reducing w/ Edge Enhancement

text:
[email] (Jon Elion) writes:

Well, this is not exactly what you're asking for, but your question
reminds me of a homomorphic filtering technique in [1] for
"simultaneous dynamic range reduction and contrast enhancement."  The
technique may be adaptable to your problem.  A figure demonstrating
the effect is reproduced in [2, pp. 183-187] and [3, pp. 213-218].

If the method *does* turn out to be useful to you, I'd appreciate
hearing about it.

[1] Stockham, T. G., Jr.  (1972).  "Image Processing in the Context of
a Visual Model."  Proc. IEEE, vol. 60, no. 7, pp. 828-842.

[2] Gonzalez, R. C., and Wintz, P. (1987).  Digital Image Processing,
2nd ed., Addison-Wesley.

[3] Gonzalez, R. C., and Woods, R. E. (1992).  Digital Image
Processing, Addison-Wesley.


author: Philip J. Naylor.

subject: Re: Noise Reducing w/ Edge Enhancement

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Jon Elion) writes:
|> Would be interested in from anyone who has experience with image
|> filtering techniques for noise reduction that simultaneously ENHANCE
|> edges.  Normally, these two operations are mutually exclusive (as
|> noise reduction can tend to BLUR edges, not sharpen them).  There
|> exist non-linear approaches that achieve this goal (although
|> tending to be computationally very intensive).
|>
	I had good success with the modified trimmed mean (MTM) filter :

Y H Lee & S A Kassam - Generalized Median Filtering and Related Nonlinear
Filtering Techniques, IEEE Trans. Acoustics Speech & Signal Processing, vol. 33,
no. 3, June 1985, pp 672 - 683.

	This is compared with other, similar, techniques in :

Y-H Lee & S Tantaratana - Decision-Based Order Statistics, IEEE Trans. ASSP,
vol. 38, no. 3, March 1990, pp 406 - 420.

	As originally formulated the filter is one dimensional (and this is the
form in which I used it), but the second paper shows results of its use in 2-D,
presumably by applying it in one direction and then the other.

								Philip J. Naylor.


author: Hans DU BUF

subject: Re: Noise Reducing w/ Edge Enhancement

text:
In article <ben.712345975@galaxy>, [email] (Ben Verwer) writes:
|> [email] (Jon Elion) writes:
|>
|> >Would be interested in from anyone who has experience with image
|> >filtering techniques for noise reduction that simultaneously ENHANCE
|> >edges.  Normally, these two operations are mutually exclusive (as
|> >noise reduction can tend to BLUR edges, not sharpen them).  There
|> >exist non-linear approaches that achieve this goal (although
|> >tending to be computationally very intensive).
|>
|> >Application is x-ray fluoroscopy (noise is Poisson).  Goal is to reduce
|> >the Poisson noise while providing edge enhancement.
|>
|> >Anecdotes, experience, pointers to articles, etc. would be appreciated.
|>
|> How about: Edge preserving smoothing
|> Proc, 4th Int. Conf on Pattern Recognition
|> Nov 7-10 1978 Kyoto
|> Nagao & Matsuyama
|>
|>
|> Basically, compute variance and mean in 4 quadrants in the neighbourhood
|> around a point and take the mean of the quadrant with the lowest vaariance.
|> In TCL-Image on a Quadra: 1.9 seconds for a 256*256 image independent of
|> neighbourhoodsize.
|>
|> Ben

Yep, probably a good technique but howcome "independent of neighbourhood
size". I don't know that Quadra system but I get size independence only
on a vectorizing machine like a cray by careful splitting up the summations
over rows and then columns (and then CPU time is peanuts).

For other filter techniques see:
du Buf, J.M.H. and Campbell, T.G. (1990) A quantitative evaluation of edge-preserving smoothing techniques. Signal Processing 21, pp 289-301.

Contains also methods which enhance edges.

Hans dB


author: Dudley Ames

subject: Re: 2nd RFD: sci.psychology.psychotherapy moderated

text:
John, I was just comparing the first paragraph of the moderation
guidelines in the 1st and 2nd proposed charter.
----------------------------------------------------------------
The 1st:

Moderation Guidelines:

This is a loosely moderated group, moderation mainly being used to
screen out irrelevant, non-psycotherapy [sic] articles, personal
attacks and arguments, irrelevant political debate, and other topics
as warranted.

The 2nd:

Moderation Guidelines:

This is a loosely moderated group, moderation mainly being used to
screen out irrelevant, non-psychotherapy articles, personal attacks,
ad hominem arguments and irrelevant political debate.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate that you have removed one qualifier ("other topics as
warranted") from the 1st submission.  I am curious about the other
qualifier that you left in ("mainly being used").

To what other uses might moderation be put?

Why not specify those uses now?

Or is it important for us to leave that up to the discretion of the
moderator(s)?


text:
Dear John:
   The following statements seem contradictory or at least the policy is
unclear:  " Emphasis
is placed on discussing psychotherapeutic methods, rather than
research or theory, since these latter topics are covered in separate
newsgroups. However, research and theory discussions related
to psychotherapy and psychotherapeutic methods are welcomed."

The following are viewed as valid topics or questions by MANY reasonable
people:

**" whether psychology is a
"science" or not,"

**"whether X behavior is
"normal" or not"

It is unclear what you mean by the following:  "any research or
theoretical areas
outside the purview of psychology or psychotherapy would remain
on other existing newsgroups and are examples of topics that are
inappropriate for this group."

GIVEN THE ABOVE, the folowing is unclear:

" moderation mainly being
* used to screen out irrelevant"

Other staements made make the following unclear or in part seem to
contradict it:  " It includes the discussion of topics that overlap with
other academic disciplines along with nontraditional areas and
approaches to psychotherapy. Similarly, "related issues" and
"applications" are defined broadly."

This still sounds disturbing:  "Moderation of
sci.psychology.psychotherapy is not the Usenet
equivalent of editing a journal; it is meant to work as a filter."  <--
especially the last phrase

Something like the following is reasonable and is the much of the
"shell" of the sort of minimal charter I have proposed:  " Authors
are also encouraged to cite relevant references in the literature
or provide some documentation for claims when and if possible.
When disagreeing with another poster, authors are encouraged to
concentrate on the others' ideas."

How much give and take (before rejection or whatever is not clear with
the following:  " Any significant
*   changes to the content of an article will not occur,
*   without prior approval and permission from the
*   original author. "

THE FOLLOWING (quoted) IS AGAIN SO OPEN TO SUBJECTIVITY THAT IS IS
PATENTLY UNACCEPTABLE:
"* Articles which have 80% or more same content as a
*   previously-approved article by the same author
*   (not including quoted material) which was
*   posted in the past 30 days will be rejected."

Philosophers when adding point frequently repeat much of proevious
material.  The previous material simply provides the context but cpould
be seen by someone uninterested or unsophisticated (etc.) as simply
aminly repeating.  I find the policy above totally unacceptable and
reason enough alone to vote against moderation.

Given my past experiences, I am curious what the following may be
referring to.:  " Additional action(s) may be taken if
*   the moderators unanimously agree additional
*   action(s) are necessary and warranted."

Sincerely, b jesness


author: John Wilson

subject: Help with understanding astable multvibrator circuit.

text:
Hello.

I've breadboarded the following circuit and it works correctly.  However, I
am unsure as to _why_ it works correctly. :)

The schematic is located at:
http://webpages.charter.net/jmw74/circuit.JPG

I don't understand how the values of R1 and R4 are being calculated.  The
forward voltage of the LED's is 2 volts with a forward current of 20 mA, so
according to Ohm's Law, the value of the resistor would be (9-2)/.020, which
would yield a 350 ohm resistor.  Why does the schematic call for a 470 ohm
resistor?

R2 and R3, as I understand, act as a current limiter to the caps, and when
the caps are fully charged, it provides current to the base of the
transistors.  A high ohm value is used to charge up the caps as a very slow
rate, until the caps stored charge equals 9V, at which point, current will
be diverted to the base of the transistors since the caps will be "full".

As far as the transistors are concerned, when current is applied to the
base, it will allow current to flow from the transistors collector to its
emitter, thus completing the circuit and allowing the LED's to light.

This is where my understanding begins to falter.  In regard to the cap and
the current flowing from R2 or R3, it would make sense to me that while the
cap is charging, there is no flow to the base of the transistor.  Once the
cap is fully charged, the flow to the cap will essentially be "blocked", and
current will then flow to the base of the transistor.  Is this corrent?

When would the cap actually discharge and where does it discharge _to_?

Thank you for your time,
John


author: John Popelish

subject: Re: Help with understanding astable multvibrator circuit.

text:
John Wilson wrote:

To allow a current that is most of the rated 20 milliamps while
certainly being below it.  If you drop the current to 10 milliamps,
there is a barely perceptible lowering of the light output.  Try it.

Keep in mind that the function of R2 and 3 involve the diode
properties of the base emitter junctions.  For example, when TR1 first
switches on, the ~9 volt negative change in voltage on the left side
of C1 is communicated to the right side of C1, lowering whatever
voltage was there by about 9 volts.  Since, right before TR1 turned
on, TR2 had to have been on, that means that the voltage on the right
side of C1 had to have been about .6 volts positive (compared to the
bottom rail).  So right after TR1 switches on, the voltage on the
right side of C1 gets shoved down to about -8.4 volts (assuming the
base emitter junction of TR2 can stand that much voltage without
breaking down and clamping that peak voltage to something less than
this).

That big negative voltage is what must be charged back up to +.6 volts
or so, before TR2 again begins to turn on.  Of course, the two sides
of the circuit are symmetrical.

Yes.  The collector current can be expected to be many times (50 to
500, say, depending on the current gain of that particular transistor)
the base current, as long as the collector voltage is more positive
than the base.  Once the collector current is pulled lower than the
base, it begins to steal the base drive current (because the collector
to base junction gets forward biased), and the effective gain goes way
down.

As long as the base voltage is below +.6 volts, yes, all the current
through the resistor is being used to raise the voltage on the
capacitor.

Actually, a better way to say that is that once the capacitor has been
charged up to +.6 volts or so, the base emitter junction detours all
the resistor current and none is left to charge the capacitor
further.  At that point, the transistor turns on, driving its
collector capacitor voltage negative, which switches the base resistor
current for the other transistor back into its capacitor, leaving none
for the other base, so the other transistor is switched off.  This
action causes the other capacitor to see a positive voltage change
(because the LED current that had been going into the collector is now
free to dump into the capacitor).  This drives a hugh pulse of base
current into the transistor that was just beginning ot turn on, and
charging base capacitor very quickly to about a little less than +9
volts on one end (don't forget the LED drop) and +.6 volts on the
other end. This is the setup for the turn off process when the off
transistor turns back on after its base voltage reaches the forward
bias threshold.

In one direction its charge current passes through LED, its series
resistor, and the forward biased base emitter junction.  It charges in
the other direction through the collector to emitter path and the
recharge resistor, R2 or 3.

You are welcome.