author: Archimedes Plutonium

subject: looking for the name of a special "term"; VonNeumann Gametheory on the Stockmarket

text:
Hoping someone can help me to name a special term. Similar to Crossover. For
example the Crossover in switching from Verizon to Wyeth. Where Verizon goes
higher than Wyeth say that tomorrow Verizon goes to 37 and Wyeth to that of
35 and a week later that Wyeth goes to 37 and Verizon drops to 35. The
Crossover is very clear because the price goes higher.

But what about two stocks say SGP and SBC where the Crossover is not one
of a higher price and switch out and higher price later and switch back
in but where the spread is good enough to switch. For example suppose
SGP goes to 18 tomorrow and SBC goes to 20 and sell SGP and buy
SBC and a week later SGP goes to 17 and SBC goes to 21 and sell
the SBC buying SGP. You see, the Crossover is not a clearly higher
than the other but takes advantage of a narrowing and widening of
a spread.

The term "crossover" is apt for the first case of Verizon and Wyeth
but what type of term is best suited in describing the second case
where neither stock surpasses the other but trades on the advantage
of a narrowing and then widening spread differential.

I suppose I could settle on the term "spread differential" but am
hoping that some reader knows of a more apt term, and hopefully some
mathematical term.

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies


subject:
Re: looking for the name of a special "term"; VonNeumann Gametheory on
 the Stockmarket

text:
19 Mar 2003 19:07:53 -0800 Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
(most snipped)

I suppose "favorable spread differential" is about the best I will get to
describe this concept.

I am leery of using and applying it because unlike Crossover which
increases number of shares without any doubt, the spread-differential
can place a portfolio into another company with less number of total
shares than originally started with. And if stuck with those less number
of shares would be defeating. Still leery.....

Archimedes Plutonium, [email]
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies


author: karl malbrain

subject: Re: looking for the name of a special "term"; VonNeumann Gametheory on  the Stockmarket

text:
Under military discipline we get to suspend ANY CODE WE NEED TO, including yours.

Archimedes Plutonium <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: David Dalton

subject: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
What are some strategies for reducing ship, sonar, and
seismic airgun array noise in the oceans in order to
reduce negative effects on marine mammals?

--
David Dalton  [email]   http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
   "Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)


subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
In article <[email]>,
 David Dalton <[email]> wrote:

I also posted that to sci.engr and other groups and
there have been a couple of interesting replies
there already.

--
David Dalton  [email]   http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
   "Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)


author: Peter Larsen

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
David Dalton wrote:

That's probably a fuel efficiency issue.

Inherently noisy, the problem with it is that there is no "safe" frequency
range to use considering the wide range of critter sizes.

Not using them comes to mind, but we don't seem to want to stop using
motorcars.

Be frank about your agenda instead, it is meaningful that we should be "good
neighbors" to the other species on the planet.

  Kind regards

  Peter Larsen


author: Scott Dorsey

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
David Dalton  <[email]> wrote:

You know multiposting is kind of rude.  It breaks a discussion up.  It's
clear you have already crossposted, why not just crosspost to all relevant
groups and drop some of the irrelevant ones?

The thing is, while you can reduce the noise from ships by playing with
hull profiles to improve laminar flow and reduce turbulence, and playing
with prop designs to reduce turbulence and cavitation, there is nothing
you can do about sonar noise.

Because... the whole point of sonar is that it's a loud noise.

What you _can_ do is to move the operating frequency of the sonar to
notes that don't bother mammals, and to do that you need to first find
out what really does bother them.  Which nobody really is completely
sure about, it seems.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
In article <[email]>,
 David Dalton <[email]> wrote:

I also just posted to sci.military.naval and other groups.

--
David Dalton  [email]   http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
   "Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)


author: Angelo Campanella

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans::: Down with crossposting

text:
Dear All:

    OK  we know the rules on cross-posting; use it RARELY, if at all...

    As an exhibit, I pulled off all here except sci.physics.acoustics; where
this one belongs.

        Ange
==================================
"David Dalton" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to [email] ---


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
On 2012-02-25 [email](ScottDorsey) said:
i would agree with that.  These cross posted threads usually
turn into noise themselves though <g>.

I'm wondering what his interest is, whether he's just dabbling or he has an
academic interest of some sort.  IF the later I'd think he'd
have already cracked a book or two on the subject.

Would agree, and though we might have a bit of knowledge I"d
think that for the most part rec.audio.pro is not the
appropriate group to which to address such queries.    But,
in addition to Scott's discussion of sonar and animals the
other question would be if sonar pings at the frequencies
that don't harm the animals are effective at doing the job
sonar is supposed to do.  I'm no expert in underwater
acoustics though, and doubt there are few in this newsgroup
<grin>.  Some of the film sound guys who do underwater
shoots might be able to address it a little more
intelligently than a bunch of live sound and studio rats,
but still, i'd say the oceanographers and others might know
a bit more on the subject.  Here in this group most of us
have a better grasp of acoustic characteristics of air
<grin>

Richard webb,

Spam sucks, if your automation can't decode this address
it's too damn bad!
send your spam to:
[email] or
[email]


author: Les Cargill

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
Peter Larsen wrote:
<snip>

Did the other creatures tell you that? I'll take "anthropomorphism" for
$400, Alex...

--
Les Cargill


author: Randy Yates

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
[email] (Scott Dorsey) writes:

What beamforming/phased array application are you interested in, Scott?
--
Randy Yates
DSP/Firmware Engineer
919-577-9882 (H)
919-720-2916 (C)


subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
In article <jiam9c$m30$[email]>,
 [email] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

It is recommended not to crosspost to more than five groups
but yes I agree I could have dropped some, but the other
two crossposts were afterthoughts after this one.

--
David Dalton  [email]   http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
   "Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)


subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
<[email]> wrote:

There is an outrageous amount of information on the subject in open
publications from the US Navy.  A lot of it has to do with very fancy
propeller designs.  Expensive propeller designs, mind you, which is
why you don't see them on merchant marine vessels.

The Navy wants to build ships that aren't audible on passive sonar
receivers.  Incidentally, some of the problem with building very quiet
ships is that animals run into them.

It's amazing how the physics are the same.  The reason I got interested in
it is because almost all of the research on large phased array microphone
systems is Navy-financed stuff.  Beamforming in air is really interesting and
a lot of the ocean work can be applied to it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


author: Ken Plotkin

subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:54:24 -0330, David Dalton <[email]>
wrote:

So you mulitposted several times with (presumably) five cross-posts in
each one?  And you think that's not rude?

Have you also broadcast this on a CB with a 200 Watt linear amp?

Only responding to this group, so no idea if this jerk will see my
response.


subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
In article <[email]>,
 Ken Plotkin <[email]> wrote:

I saw your response.

--
David Dalton  [email]   http://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
   "Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)


subject: Re: reducing ship noise in the oceans

text:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:55:39 -0330, David Dalton <[email]>
wrote:

My heart is full.


author: D. Spencer Hines

subject: Re: The Vinland Map -- Find Or Fraud?

text:
Hilarious!

The Comedy Team of Gans and Towe can't even get their act together.

But this makes them even FUNNIER!

[No, dear, they are not podiatrists.]

Pogue Gans has been insisting for YEARS that the Vinland Map Ink is
DEFINITELY NOT drawn using Iron Gall Ink.

Gans makes that assertion in the most draconian, pontificatory, pompous,
pedantic and stentorian tones he is capable of -- which constitute a
plenitude of draconian, pontificatory, pompous, pedantic and stentorian
tones.

Now, Pogue Towe, his straight man, who is SUPPOSED to know his lines,
throws in a bait and switch of the most egregious sort -- totally
undercutting his Partner in Crime and Comedy.

Pogue Towe tells us:

***"Literally hundreds of iron-gall inks have been studied and none has
been found with anatase.  In fact, most have little or no titanium in
them."***

Deeeeelightful!

And TOTALLY IRRELEVANT -- if the Vinland Map is truly not drawn with an
iron gall ink.

NOR does Pogue Towe tell us WHO conducted these studies, WHERE and WHEN
and provide citations and quotations from the papers -- or any other
EVIDENCE. -- He just makes another bald, sweeping assertion, sans
benefit of any PROOF -- a Pogue Towe standard _modus operandi_.

Towe would be spending his time far more profitably learning to write
"I'm A Fraud!" on a grain of white rice than trying to peddle this sort
of nonsense on USENET.

He suffers under the delusion he is dealing with folks here who are of
the same ilk as none-too-bright students on a tour of the Smithsonian.

No Sale!

Pogue Towe's little FLIMFLAMMERY, a VERY CLUMSY bait and switch, has
been exposed and he takes yet another:

EGREGIOUS PRATFALL!!!

KAWHOMP!!!

KERSPLAT!!!

How Sweet It Is!

Enjoy, Virginia, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Stay tuned..

Pogues On The Run!

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.  Odi profanum vulgus et arceo."

Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat
opus.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor


author: Ken Towe

subject: Re: The Vinland Map -- Find Or Fraud?

text:
Hines replies with his usual non-answer and avoidance to a statement
that he had made in a manner to put down people. My question to this
phony? Had he examinded the Vinland Map? Very simple question. Even he
should be able to answer it, and without quoting from an economist with
no scientific experience or background.

I wrote (to someone else on another post)...

"Literally hundreds of iron-gall inks have been studied and none has
been found with anatase.  In fact, most have little or no titanium in
them."

Hines responds (note the Seppo-style CAPS)...

"And TOTALLY IRRELEVANT -- if the Vinland Map is truly not drawn with
an iron gall ink."

Tell that to Jackie Olin, Mr. Hines. She has been decrying the putative
absence of study of other Medieval documents.

Tell that to Tom Cahill, Mr. Hines. He proudly announced in New Haven
that his team had studied hundreds of documents...never found anatase
though. (Didn't see Hines in the audience; maybe he didn't know what
Tom had said?)

But ,even further, Hines needs to consider what it means for no other
medieval documents to have anatase. Or will he have to ask an
economist? It is clearly not irrelevant. But, like Seppo, Hines can't
see past his hatred for those who don't think the map is genuine.

Now, will Hines tell us if he has ever seen the Vinland Map? No, he
won't. He switches to another topic, brings up a quote (taken out of
context from another post) and then has the nerve to say that it was I
who switched. Well, OK, so what if anyone switched? Come on you phony.
Tell us. When and where did you examine the Vinland Map? Or, clearly by
your own Veritas standards, you must be a self-appointed pseudo-expert.
And everyone here, except the other clowns, knows that. Hines has never
seen the Vinland Map himself.  Lot of Lux!

Will he ever tell us what his scenario is for an authentic Vinland Map?
No. He won't because he can't. He prefers to make silly little attempts
at put-downs. He continues to lose credibility.


author: David Johnson

subject: Re: The Vinland Map -- Find Or Fraud?

text:
"Ken Towe" <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

[snip]

For once, surprisingly, Hines is actually right here. It's by accident,
though, I'm sure.

To sum why he's right...for once:

    	The ink on the map _looks_ like aged, iron-gall ink...

    	If it _isn't_, though, then that means it was _deliberately_ drawn
    	to _look_ like aged, iron-gall ink...

    	Since the only real explanation as to why someone would do this is
    	to make the map look like something it isn't is that it's a
    	forgery...

    	So - and I'm _sure_ this wasn't what he was going for, but... - if
    	it _isn't_ iron-gall ink, then - yes, he's right - it is "TOTALLY
    	IRRELEVANT" how, why, where the anatase came from because - guess
    	what - we've already _proved_ it's a forgery...

    	And, guess what again, it isn't iron-gall ink. Therefore: Forgery.

Game, set, match...and no overtime.

David


author: Jack Summers

subject: Electrolysis Question

text:
I've been reading a bit about electrolysis production lately and came
across the formula V=(RITt)/(Fpz). I gather from this that only
current and not voltage (and therefore wattage) effects the amount of
gas produced in electrolysis. Logically I feel that this conclusion is
wrong, but I can't find where I am making the error in drawing it.
Thanks for any replies, this is really bugging me!


author: Peter Lowrie

subject: Re: Electrolysis Question

text:
Yes, Jack, that is correct. Low voltage (c.1.17 - 1.4VDC) , high current -
carbon (grahite) electrodes.

Jack Summers wrote:


author: G. R. L. Cowan

subject: Re: Electrolysis Question

text:
Jack Summers wrote:

What if you take the voltage down to 0.0001 V? Do you still get
the same amount of gas? Obviously not; that would violate
the law of conservation of energy.

So it should be. *Above some minimum voltage*, gas depends pretty much
only on current, anyway until you start boiling the liquid.
Below that voltage, you get nothing.

--- Graham Cowan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc --
how cars gain nuclear cachet


author: Don Lancaster

subject: Re: Electrolysis Question

text:
Jack Summers wrote:

Plain old Faraday's Law. From Great Books #45.
Also see http://www.tinaja.com/glib/enregfun.pdf and
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse153.pdf

Electrolysis consists of adding electrons to ions that are gotten from
an input current.

Temperature and voltage enter the equation only in determining whether
the process is exothermic (normal) thermoneutral (rare) or endothermic
(way too low production rates).

Typically the endothermic threshold is around 1.28 volts per cell,
thermoneutral is 1.45 volts, and exothermic is anything above.

Plus the contact and overvoltage potentials. Stainless steel uselessly
doubles these values and halves efficiency compared to platinized
platinum.


author: Harry Conover

subject: Re: Electrolysis Question

text:
[email] (Jack Summers) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Look up Faraday's Law of Electrolysis. If you think about an
electroplating analogy, it may help to baseline your logical starting
point.

                                                        Harry C.


author: MS

subject: EPS output in Maple 5

text:
Does anyone have an idea about how to output graphics from Maple
directly as Encapsulated Postscript (eps) files rather than as
Postscipt files (ps)?

I am asking because I noticed that some operations on files for
inclusion in LaTeX papers through the graphics package only work on
eps files and not on ps files. I can do the conversion through
Ghostscript but it would be nice to have Maple to output directly eps
rather than ps.

Sorry if i said something silly. I am not so much an expert...

Thanks.

MS


author: Robert Israel

subject: Re: EPS output in Maple 5

text:
In article <[email]>,
MS <[email]> wrote:

Try just giving the file the extension ".eps" instead of ".ps".
I think Maple's PostScript output may be sufficiently "encapsulated"
for this to work.  On the other hand, there might be trouble because
Maple's Bounding Box is wrong.

Robert Israel                                [email]
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2


subject: Re: EPS output in Maple 5

text:
[email] (Robert Israel) wrote:

No, unfortunately it doesn't work. Everything runs smoothly but the
figure is clearly not well centered in the final output. I think you
are right in your guess about a problem with the bounding box.
The conversion from ps to eps by Ghostscript seems to work fine,
though. But I am surprised that people at Maple don't fix things like
these. I bet that a lot of Maple users insert plots into LaTeX
documents with packages like "graphicx" etc.and I think they are
annoyed by such problems. (I have colleagues who are much less
familiar than I am with ps, eps and such technicalities...)

Or maybe that's because I am not using the latest release of Maple????

Are things better now?

Thanks a lot in any case.

Ciao from Italy.

MS


author: Athale Rahul

subject: Re: EPS output in Maple 5

text:
In Maple 6 you can save the figure directly in EPS format.

AR.


author: John Logajan

subject: Hide the neutron

text:
Okay, I think I understand the "virtual neutron" idea now, and how it
allows the process to occur even though the "trigger" energy seems
to be insufficient (which I repeat below.)

In the tables below, I computed the energy required to break apart a
deuterium nucleus (2.45 MeV.)   And I also computed the energy released
by the neutron capture of Palladium 104 (7.09 MeV.)  Computations are
based upon weights listed in the CRC HCP.

If we want to produce neutrons from D, we need a gamma of at least
2.45 MeV.  Once we have the free neutrons, they can be captured by the
Pd(104 in this case) and release 7.09 MeV.  The net gain is 7.09-2.45,
or 4.64 MeV.

But suppose that the first reaction can borrow energy from the second
reaction.  Because the sum of energy change is positive at 4.64 MeV,
from an energy balance point of view, it doesn't require *ANY* outside
energy to occur, it could happen spontaneously.

Apparently, such "virtual intermediate state" reactions would increase
in probability when the physical distance between the D and the Pd
becomes very small.  But, of course, the electric charge on the two
nuclei keep them well apart.

And now for more speculation.

Perhaps there is simple "mechanical" movement of D into the vicinity
of Pd.  We know that D's can be Compton scattered directly (don't we?).
We know they can be scattered indirectly by electric force "collisions"
with Compton scattered electrons. [Note: Compton scattering merely
means that the incident gamma ray induced physical movement in the
particle, with a resultant deflected gamma with reduced energy.]

A "D" which picks up kinetic energy by direct or indirect Compton
scattering is going to be able to approach the Pd nucleus closer.
And like a bullet shot into a tank, it is going to bounce around inside
the lattice for a while, approaching many Pd nuclei in sequence,
perhaps until probability smiles on it and it is captured.  (Heh,
I can even envision a D caught between two Pd's like a ping-pong
ball between the table top and a descending paddle board -- brrrrt.)

Under this mode of reaction, direct photodisintegration of a D into
p + n, even if a virtual n, is not required.  Maybe we are more
interested in the Compton scattering rather than gamma capture?
Ehy?

Photodisintegration Reaction:
(finds required gamma energy)

Starting     Atomic    | Result       Atomic    |  Weight    (x 931.50)
Particles    Weight    | Particles    Weight    |  P1 - P2      MeV
---------  ----------- | ---------  ----------- | ---------  ----------
                         1H1 (p)      1.00797
                              n       1.008665
                                    -----------
1H2 (D)      2.0140                   2.016635    -0.002635  -2.4545025

Palladium 104 neutron capture:
(finds released gamma energy)

Starting     Atomic    | Result       Atomic    |  Weight    (x 931.50)
Particles    Weight    | Particles    Weight    |  P1 - P2      MeV
---------  ----------- | ---------  ----------- | ---------  ----------
46Pd104    103.904029
     n       1.008665
           ----------
           104.912694    46Pd105    104.905079     0.007615   7.0933725

  -- John Logajan


author: Robert I. Eachus

subject: Re: Hide the neutron

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (John Logajan) writes:

   Okay, I think I understand the "virtual neutron" idea now, and how it
   allows the process to occur even though the "trigger" energy seems
   to be insufficient (which I repeat below.)

   If we want to produce neutrons from D, we need a gamma of at least
   2.45 MeV.  Once we have the free neutrons, they can be captured by the
   Pd(104 in this case) and release 7.09 MeV.  The net gain is 7.09-2.45,
   or 4.64 MeV.

-- The figure I have been using for the mass of deuterium is 2.01410,
-- and 1.007825 for the mass of protium (1H1).  This gives 2.226 MeV
-- for the deuterium disassociation energy, which is close to the
-- "commonly accepted" value.  I also have slightly different values
-- for the Pd isotope weights, but all those are nits.

   A "D" which picks up kinetic energy by direct or indirect Compton
   scattering is going to be able to approach the Pd nucleus closer.
   And like a bullet shot into a tank, it is going to bounce around inside
   the lattice for a while, approaching many Pd nuclei in sequence,
   perhaps until probability smiles on it and it is captured.  (Heh,
   I can even envision a D caught between two Pd's like a ping-pong
   ball between the table top and a descending paddle board -- brrrrt.)

-- I like the image. :-) My analogy is that the deuterium can get
-- caught in a vice.  (There I was, surrounded by eight Palladium
-- atoms, and they were all coming after me!)  But in any case, High
-- kinetic energy and lattice vibrations seem to be the best
-- candidates for bringing things together.

   Under this mode of reaction, direct photodisintegration of a D into
   p + n, even if a virtual n, is not required.  Maybe we are more
   interested in the Compton scattering rather than gamma capture?
   Ehy?

-- I'm hedging my bets!  Seriously, any model which has enough energy
-- to slam the nucleii together by force, also leads to all sorts of
-- detectable radiation.  The combination of a squeeze and tunneling,
-- with the incident gamma energy added, has the advantage (in
-- explaining the data as well as for Mr. Fusion generators) that none
-- of the intermediates can get out.  The new nucleus has lots of
-- energy to get rid of, but it doesn't all have to come out at once.
-- Most of the energy would be released as low energy (order of 20 to
-- 50 KeV) gammas. In fact Pd107 has a beta decay half-life of seven
-- million years.


author: Colin Henderson, Physics Dept. UCT

subject: Re: Hide the neutron (or: billiards with feathers)

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (John Logajan) writes:

O.K.  As Paul Dietz says in a back of the envelope calculation, the
"range" of a virtual neutron will be in the order of fermis (10^-15 m)
Therefor you need pretty nearly contact between the deuterium and
palladium nuclei for the neutron to be transferred.  Essentially what you're
looking at is then the pickup reaction

Pd(d,p)Pd                              (1)

Now the threshold for the T(d,n)4He reaction is some 20 keV. I guess
it's pretty similar for the D(d,n)3He reaction.  The threshold for the
deuteron on palladium is going to be up by the order of Z (=46) for
palladium.  That's because the threshold arises largely from coulomb barrier
penetration requirements.

So by BOTE calc, threshold for reaction (1) is of the order of 1 MeV.
Sorry if this is flogging a dead horse, but that's point (1)

Now for Compton scattering, the other runner in this two horse race.

The photon wavelength shift is given by:

lambda1 - lambda0 = h/mc(1-cos(theta)), where

lambda1 is the scattered wavelength, lambda0 is the initial photon
wlngth, m is the mass of the particle the photon scatters off, and
theta is the angle of scattering.

Converting to energies, and taking the maximum energy transfer at
theta=90 deg, i.e. cos(theta)=0, we have:

hc/E1 - hc/E0 = h/mc

or

1/E1 - 1/E0 = 1/mc^2

For a deuteron, mass m = 1880 odd MeV/c^2, and a E0 = 1.5 MeV gamma,
the new gamma energy E1 will be 1.4988 MeV, i.e. the deuteron will be
given about 1 keV AT MOST, which is insignificant, even for d,d
fusion. So, forget Compton scattering as a mechanism. Nice idea,
though.

more like a balloon flung by a kid :-)

It will lose energy very fast due to collisions with electrons.
 [delete "brrrrt" and insert farting noise :-)]


author: Roy Jensen

subject: bodies reaction to different isomers

text:
What are some examples of compounds where 1 isomer is beneficial while
the other isomer is toxic, benign, etc. The only example I can come up
with is Vitamin C but I remember hearing about others!

Thanks,
Roy Jensen


author: Skoog

subject: Re: bodies reaction to different isomers

text:
Thalidomide?

"Roy Jensen" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Stephan Bird

text:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Roy Jensen wrote:

Many of the drugs nowadays *have* to be enantiomerically pure (assuming of
course they have a chiral centre or similar). Things like thalidomide
(tho this is making a comeback as a leprosy treatment, I think),
propanolol, many examples..

Stephan


author: Uncle Al

text:
Roy Jensen wrote:

Cocaine, methamphetamine, thalidomide (which racemizes in the body).

Look up the Sepracor patents on resolved pharmaceuticals.
http://www.sepracor.com/html/science/public.html


author: George

text:
Skoog wrote

Ibuprofen
The commercially available product is usually the racemate, which is the
biologically active S enantiomer and the R enantiomer which is harmless.


author: Cherry S.

subject: Dog Found On Moon

text:
No known space craft has yet to land on the surface of Mars. No known
Human has yet to land on the surface of Mars.  So far NASA has sent up a
cat, dog, and monkey. None survived but only one was found. To NASA's
dismay, the dog sent up in August of 1942 was found, not on Mars,  but
on the Moon. He was found in May of 1985. If any questions, please
contact me at my website and find out more information.
http://www.ManyMysteries.com/astronomy/MarsMission/

Sincerely,
Astronomer
 Vicky Esgrove


author: N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc

subject: Re: Dog Found On Moon

text:
"Cherry S." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

There were two. John Carter, formerly of Virginia and Ulysses
Paxton.

Since we are talking fiction...

David A. Smith


author: Agent Smith

subject: Re: Dog Found On Moon

text:
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" <[email]> wrote in news:5nqtj.17423
$[email]:

This is a Letterman joke, right?


/.../

	——
	An Artist's Experience with Central Fixation
	By Florence Cane
	——
    This patient consulted the editor on July 20, 1921, because her
vision was getting worse, and she suffered from a constant feeling of
strain and fatigue in her eyes. She had worn glasses since she was
seven years old for hypermetropia, commonly called farsight, and was
now wearing convex 4.00 D. S., a rather strong lens. Yet without her
glasses she was able to read fine print imperfectly, and by the aid of
her memory she became able at the last visit to read it at six inches.
Her discomfort was relieved at the first visit, and her distant
vision, which had been imperfect, though better than her near vision,
also improved.
——
    I have made a few observations while trying to improve my eyesight
by the methods recommended by Dr. Bates, and many thoughts and
questions regarding them have suggested themselves to me.
    The first thing I remember observing on leaving the doctor's
office after my first treatment was a new sense of movement and life.
Never before had I seen such clear, bright color in the crows. I
walked toward the library on Fifth Avenue, and never had the sun shone
so brightly, or the world looked so exciting. My heart beat faster. I
felt a great elation, as if a new vision, a new power, had been given
me.
    The second thing I remembered was that I sat down the same evening
with "The Cure of Imperfect Sight by Treatment Without Glasses,"
determined to see what I could do without my glasses. I found that by
shifting and palming I could read a sentence or two, later more, and
after a while I could read a paragraph without stopping. I found
shifting from a point above a word to one below it particularly
helpful.
    I went to bed at ten o'clock, but was so excited, after reading
there until twelve, that I could not sleep much. The magnitude of the
truth thrilled me. The relation of sight, memory and imagination to
body, mind and soul—the use of one faculty to strengthen another—
seemed to be such a wonderful conception.
    Soon I observed that looking upward seemed to improve my sight. I
took to practicing on high objects out of doors. I shifted on points
like two apples in a tree, or on the clouds. This helped me very much,
and overcame shrinking from light. I found that I had never walked
with my eyes really open before. When I told Dr. Bates about it, he
said it was the light that helped me, not the height of objects I
looked at.
    I have had several experiences in the application of the
principles of central fixation which seem interesting enough to
communicate to the readers of "Better Eyesight." The first occurred
when I had mislaid something. I had looked everywhere for it in vain.
I sat down and palmed, and, quietly but suddenly, I saw in my mind
where I had laid it. I got up and looked, and it was there.
    I burned myself at a beach fire on a piece of wood that I picked
up. It had been in the fire, but it was dark and I did not notice it.
I burned my thumb quite badly—enough to raise a big blister. It was
very painful, and I had no remedy at hand. I remember that I had read
in Dr. Bates' book about central fixation in relation to pain, and I
tried remembering the small "o." After a few minutes the pain ceased
until I could not tell which thumb I had burned. The same thing
happened after a bee had stung me, and one night when I had a severe
cold and could not sleep because of difficulty in breathing, I was
greatly helped by seeing the period and making it swing. I fell asleep
and continued seeing the period in my sleep.
    In painting I have had the most interesting experiences of all. If
I am working from the memory or imagination and it won't come the way
I want, I try palming. The first time this happened, I was painting a
lake with some birches at one side. I just couldn't remember how
birches grew, and the trees wouldn't look right. So I closed my eyes
and waited, and soon a vision came to me of myself walking in a young
birch wood that I used to know; I saw how the branches grew, and felt
the white glimmer of reflected light from the bark, and the tender
young green of the fragile leaves, and I painted the birches with ease
and joy. This use of palming may be of great value to artists, because
the artist works from the image, and sometimes this image is lost. By
straining and effort he cannot regain it, but by palming he may.
    I have also had interesting experiences in treating others, my
first pupil being my little girl. She had a great fear of the water,
so that she could not let herself go, and float face down. She has a
cat of which she is very fond; so I suggested that she recall her cat
washing itself when she tried to float. She did this and was able to
float twelve seconds.
    Another case of interest was that of a woman who was in a nervous
condition, overwrought and discouraged over her problems. I began
teaching her how to improve her eyesight, and at the first lesson she
made such great progress that she was overcome with happiness. The
magnitude of the thing she had done gave her a sense of control over
herself, a new sense of power. She said, "If I can do this, why I can
do anything." And it is true; she has pulled herself out of the
overwrought state.
    Among all the people with whom I have talked, or to whom I have
tried to explain these ideas, I have met only one with a perfectly
rigid mind. He was, as one would expect, a pure scientist of very high
standing. He wouldn't even admit that his hand appeared to move when
he swung his head from side to side with his hand eight inches before
his eyes. He said it merely made him dizzy. He knew the hand was in a
fixed position, so it couldn't appear to him to move. This statement
showed that he only used half his functions. He used his reason but
refused to allow his senses to record how things appeared.
    There is one thing Dr. Bates has said that I want to question. "We
can see only what we imagine, and we cannot imagine something we have
not seen, or experienced." As an example,  he gives our inability to
imagine a foreign alphabet. Well, if that statement is true, how do we
get at a new truth? I think it is from the imagination. One can
conceive of new forms in art, and I should judge that a scientist must
conceive a possible truth in his imagination, and then set about
testing it by experiment and observation. The marriage of the two—
facts and imagination—creates new truths and widens man's
consciousness. This Dr. Bates has done. But he has only called
imagination good. I think it is infinite, and by penetrating deeper
into its mystery we are penetrating into the source of man's growth.
——
Better Eyesight
A monthly magazine devoted to the prevention and cure of imperfect
sight without glasses
Vol. V - October, 1921 - No. 4
Copyright, 1921, by the Central Fixation Publishing Company
Editor—W. H. Bates, M.D.
Publisher—Central Fixation Publishing Co.
Doctors are needed all over the world to cure people without glasses
$2.00 per year - 20 cents per copy
300 Madison Avenue, New York. N. Y.
——

/.../


author: Neil Brooks

subject: Re: An Artist's Experience with Central Fixation

text:
On Dec 9, 7:07 am, Otis <[email]> wrote:

Providing evidence of it must be even harder.

Otherwise, it's rather difficult to fathom why you've never been able
to provide any....


subject: Re: FRAUD: Re: An Artist's Experience with Central Fixation

text:
On Dec 9, 8:34 am, Otis <[email]> wrote:

Wow.  You are an unmitigated idiot, Otis.  Nice red herrings, there,
you old fool!


author: Otis

subject: Re: FRAUD: An Artist's Experience with Central Fixation

text:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c2az4OFgtw&feature=related

On Dec 9, 8:39 am, "Mike Tyner" <[email]> wrote:


text:
And the (exclusively) PREVENTIVE second-opinion is:

http://www.central-fixation.com/bates-medical-articles/myopia-prevention-teachers.php

Some people take a disagreement (second-opinion) about the natural
eye's dynamic behavior as FRAUD.

That is a professional disaster.

It is never true to SCIENCE -- and reflects on the person making the
statement.

No doubt true PREVENTION is difficult.

But throwing the word "FRAUD" around is not justified.

Science of the natural eye best,

On Dec 9, 5:00 am, "^_^" <[email]> wrote:


text:
Withholding critical scientific information (about the proven effect
of a -3 diopter lens, is fradulent).

Claiming that a minus has NO EFFECT on the natural eye's refractive
STATE -- is fradulent.

Under scientific freedom of speech, calling an ophthalmologist
"fradulent" -- is itself fradulent.

There is no evidence that this poster is doing anything other than
posting Dr. Bates OPINION.

You best idea, Mike, is to not post remarks on this poster -- who is
only exercising his right of FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

You are attemtping to deny him that RIGHT.

Posting an OPINION is not FRADULENT.

Prevention and second-opinion best,

On Dec 9, 10:28 am, "Mike Tyner" <[email]> wrote:


author: Mike Tyner

subject: FRAUD: Re: An Artist's Experience with Central Fixation

text:
"Otis" <[email]> wrote

A FRAUD.

YOU are a FRAUD.


text:
"Otis" <[email]> wrote
. posting Dr. Bates OPINION.

Then I'm free to post MY opinion.

My opinion is Dr. Bates was a FRAUD.

My second opinion is that YOU are a FRAUD.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion.

Enjoy,

-MT


author: Alonzo

subject: Rapamycin reverses Alzheimer in mouse model

text:
University of Texas Health Science Center researchers say they have
successfully reversed Alzheimer's-like memory deficits in a mouse
model of the disease. The researchers, led by Assistant Professor
Salvatore Oddo, said they used rapamycin -- a drug that keeps the
immune system from attacking transplanted organs -- in rescuing the
learning and memory deficits. Oddo said the study offers the first
evidence the drug might be valuable in treating Alzheimer's patients.
Oddo said rapamycin also reduced Alzheimer's-like lesions in the
brains of the mice. "Our findings may have a profound clinical
implication," Oddo said. "Because rapamycin is a U.S. Food and Drug
Administration-approved drug, a clinical trial using it as an anti-
Alzheimer's disease therapy could be started fairly quickly."

http://www.lef.org/news/LefDailyNews.htm?NewsID=9366&Section=AGING&source=DHB_100226&key=Body+Title


author: David

subject: Re: Rapamycin reverses Alzheimer in mouse model

text:
As the saying goes, if the only tool you have is a hammer (in Taka's
case, some rudimentary knowledge of AA metabolism), then every problem
looks like a nail.....


author: Taka

text:
On 26 Feb, 16:44, Alonzo <[email]> wrote:

This is just another way to wage a chemical war against the
overstimulatory effects of Omega-6 fatty acids.  Like resveratrol
inhibiting COX-2 here we are inhibiting the TOR signaling mediated by
linoleate charged phosphatidic acid.

Taka


author: FunkOdyssey

text:
On Feb 28, 12:11 am, Taka <[email]> wrote:

Stop obsessing about omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids.  They are not
the only two variables in human health.  Constantly harping on them in
topics where they are not relevant is annoying.


author: Depree, Jonathan A

subject: Re: wierd hunger

text:
In article <$[email]> Eric Lovett <[email]> writes:

What do the doctors say? My bet is that it is that much underrated source of
wierd effects -coincidence. I certainly wouldn't recommend 10p pieces as a
cure for fussy eating.

Hope you and he are well.

Jonathan Depree,
Lincoln University, P.O. Box 84, Canterbury, New Zealand.

Socrates was a famous Greek Teacher who went around giving
people advice. They killed him.   (school history howler)


author: surfduke

subject: Pictures of the Astro Autograph Show!

text:
See this link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23617759@N00/

I will post more sometime tomorrow.

Have a great night,

Carl


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Pictures of the Astro Autograph Show!

text:
Could you caption the photos so that we know who the guys are?

Was that Lovell in there?


author: OM

text:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:29:51 -0700, surfduke <[email]>
wrote:

Q: Did you bother to do any contrast/brightness tweaks before you
uploaded those? Or at least an Auto-Balance in Photoslop?

				OM


text:
On Jun 11, 11:29 pm, OM <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote:

I have not had time to tuch them up yet. I am catching up on some
work. I will do it later today.

Carl


author: Alex Terrell

subject: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
A recent thread I started discussed the use of nuclear thermal power
to create hydrogen. This could turn nuclear power stations into
flexible providers of electricity.

Since then, I've read up a little about the status of hydrogen usage.
It seems like hydrogen is not much use as fuel for transportation, due
to its energy density. So what is large scale hydrogen useful for?

Can it be burnd in conventional gas turbines to provide electricity?
Coupling a hydrogen turbine with a nuclear plant and a hydrogen
production plant would enable a nuclear power station effectively to
produce electricity in the range of 0-200% of its rated output.

Can it be used for domestic heating and cooking?

Is there an established process to "burn" coal in hydrogen to make
methane? This produces a fuel which is much more enviromentally
friendly than coal, though still with carbon.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Don W. wrote:
separate

No, but your argumentation implies they are the same. Sure they're
linked, but they are not the same.

and beer and tennis rackets and everything else that money can buy. And
energy costs are but a small part of the cost of a PV system.

Take two, approximately correct statements:

1. A PV system will generate 10MWhrs in its lifetime. Its construction
and deployment used 1MWhr of electricity.
2. The same PV system will generate $30 of electricity in its lifetime.
To produce and install and operate cost / will cost $150.

Statement 1 comes from the research that a KWhr of solar electricty
produces 50g of CO2 in its lifecycle. Grid electricity tends to produce
500g/KWhr, so there's a 10:1 payback on electricity, or about 3:1 on
thermal energy.

Statement 2 comes from the fact that PV electricity is about 5 times
the cost of grid electricity. So there's a 1:5 payback on money.

Clearly money and energy are not the same thing - unless you think
money and beer are the same thing.

I agree the only time solar pays back financially is where grid energy
is not available, or expensive to connect, e.g. some parking meters.

snip

synchronous
greater
inverters.
synchronous

Agree there, but it takes many things to make money, the most important
typically being capital, labour and external supplies. Energy is
typically just one of the external supplies.
dollars to
and a
still
with more
extra
Or fly a bit further, or buy a bigger car, or put spot lights in the
kitchen.

The point your making is that money we spend on solar power would be
better spent on other CO2 reduction methods - and yes, energy
conservation has the biggest payback - as BP found out, it costs
virtually nothing, and has a big impact on CO2 output, (completely
torpedoing the view that Kyoto is prohibitelvely expensive).

and yes, if you have 3m2 free on the roof, better put in a solar water
heater.

That said, if no one buys PVs, there'll be no R&D into PVs, and a
promising technology will be scrapped.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Nice article - but there's no such thing as an absolute rat hole - at
lest, till we know everything - we can't judge.

PV is promising, but in it its thin-film (10 micrometres) form. Even
current crystaline prices on current trends might become economically
competitive  - though for now your usually better off with a solar
water heater.

Cold fusion: 99% sure it's a rat hole, but given the potential
benefits, worth keeping an open mind.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Don W. wrote:
hydrogen
of
than the
there!
by any
I think your a little harsh. It's not a dream - it's reality, all be it
for a small Island. I'm sure it would be cheaper to get a grid
connection, but there are probbaly PR arguments to have a zero emission
island.

It might come close to working on the Falklands. I'm sore electricity
generation there with imported oil must be quite expensive. At the same
time. land is free and wind abundant.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

And I agree, but there may be exceptions, and the Dutch Island proves
that there is an exception (OK - that's tidal energy) - but it's not
too expensive if they're doing it.
You keep referring to this document which makes the rather strange
claim that more energy goes into solar cell production than you get
out, which contradicts  a lot of research - I think though its a
mistake in the writing, rather than your ideas.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

installed,
cheapest

much
owing
perfect
totally

In your otherwise excellent paper you confuse me by mixing the
economics and the energy use.

No solar cell has ever been commercially compettive where grid energy
is available. However, there is a carbon payback on installing cells:

g/kWh CO2  	      Japan   Sweden  	 Finland
coal 	                975 	980 	894
gas thermal 	        608 	1170 (peak-load, reserve) 	-
gas combined cycle 	519 	450 	472
solar photovoltaic 	53 	50 	95
wind 	                29 	5.5 	14
nuclear 	        22 	6 	10 - 26
hydro 	                11 	3 	-

http://www.greatchange.org/bb-thermochemical-WNA_energy_analysis_of_power_systems.html
and http://www.sylvatica.com/lcaeng.pdf

So if solar photo voltaic energy creates 50 - 100g of CO2 per KW/Hr
produced, that's a 10 - 20 fold payback on coal, or a 5 to 10 fold
payback on most countries grid costs.

Hence, if I use 1KWhr to create, install and operate solar cells, I
would expect to get 5 to 10KWhrs back.
that
The amortization cost of the synchronous inverter has little to do with
the energy payback.

all
What your saying is that if you had to buy only the inverter, you
couldn't make money out of it. That's different to saying that there's
no energy payback.
the
TWICE

Thus Guaranteeing a net FINANCIAL sink.

I look forward to seeing the update, but I suggest you seperate out the
economics from the energy.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Enery is just one part of economics. Thermodynamic fundamentals
guarantee many things, but not that economics is fundamentally energy
driven.

Labour and Capital are arguably much bigger drivers of economics than
energy.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
By
Yes - and recently it's stopped working for posting, so I'm using the
Google beta version, which is not as good as the old version. Any
recommendations?

snip to shorten.
or
60% was the figure given by "Eunome"? This seems about right for
hydrogen. Fuel cells might achieve 80%, but their capital cost is
unknown.

costs
price of
rather
question.
cheap

the
I think the point is that if we move to nuclear / renewables, we need
some form of energy store. The candidats include:

Hydrogen, not from electrolysis, but thermal sources
Pumped storage - best where geography allows
Batteries - probably done in-vehicle at local level
Fly wheels - whilst no good for cars, large flywheels could be feasible
Intelligent demand management - will help, but not enough

One area where hydrogen seems a good bet is where the energy demand
cycle is seasonal. An Island off Germany is already planning hydrogen
storage to power the touristy summer. Amazingly the power will come
from tidal, so they need to use electrolysis.

win
homes
in
Probably not. Can existing natural gas pipelines carry hydrogen?

CO2
nuclear
running
stock


author: G. R. L. Cowan

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

80 percent of what?

Of HHV, PEM fuel cells are in the low 30s percent
at beginning of life, at sea level.

--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc --
how individual mobility gains nuclear cachet


author: Eric Gisin

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
In the long term, making hydrogen thermally (solar or nuclear) will be cheaper
than reformed methane.

The major uses of hydrogen are cracking petroleum to increase the gasoline
fraction, and ammonia production.

Other uses are direct hydrogenation of coal to produce methane, and upgrading
syn-gas.

Biomass and O2 produces CO + H2, but the C:H ratio is too low for liquid fuels.
CO+2H2 produces methanol, a good hydrogen carrier for fuel cells.

"Alex Terrell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Roland PJ

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

You're a self-important #$^k, but still..

Good question.

This is called load-balancing. Did you really intend 0-200% ? You're
perhaps proposing balancing the immediate electricity demand on the
power station, with hydrogen production, perhaps through electrolysis of
the cooling medium.

No. Bad application.

Yes, there are several. Check out http://www.mokindustries.com/.

Roland


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Hydrogen can be used for the following.

1 Hydrogen when combined with atmospheric nitrogen via the haber-bosch
process can produce ammonia for the fertaliser, explosives and
chemicals industries.

2 Hydrogen if supplied to otherwise conventional fischer-tropsch or
bergius hydrogenation coal to oil plants will produce 3 times more
synthetic fuel for the same amount of coal.

3 Hydrogen when combined with CO2 (from exhausts or absorbed from the
atmosphere) can be combined to make methanol which can be converted to
gasoline and other hydrogcarbons via the MTG (methanol to gasoline)
process.

4 Hydrogen if bruned in a conventional combined cycle gas-turbine plus
steam turbine topping cycle power plant can produce electricity at 60%
efficiency.   Theoretically a SOFC 'solid oxide fuel cell' that is
turbo compounde charged can achieve an efficiency of 85% on hydrogen.

So a plentifull supply of hydrogen would be quite usefull especially if
it comes from a photochemic spliting of water.

Hydrogen storage technology is comming along too.   BMW have made a car
called the BMW 745h that they intend to produce and sell based on their
earlier 750h.

The 745h has a special internal combustion engine that can run of both
petrol and hydrogen by chaninge valve timming to cool the valves.

The cylinderical hydrogen tank stores liquid hydrogen in a dewar vacuum
flask with an additional 30 layers of infrared blocking aluminium foil.

The tank stores hydrogen at zero pressure intially.  If not driven for
4 days the pressure rises to 6 atmospheres and then begins to purge via
a catalytic device that prevents emisions of the h2 gas by converting
it to water.   If driven for 15 minutes every 3-4 days there is no need
to purge as the excess pressure is used up.

BMW are now testing a tank in the lab that uses the liquid hydrogen
consumed during driving to make liquid air as an additional layer of
insulation for their tank.  They expect then to be able to store the
hydrogen 10-14 days without any boiling off.  They are also working on
non cylindirical tanks.


author: alex

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
power
usage.
due
North
electricity?
to
Maybe, but let's do some BOTE calculation.

If I have a high temperature nuclear power plant, I can produce
electricity at some 40% efficieny.

Or I can produce Hydrogen at 50%. This hydrogen could be used in a gas
turbine to produce electricity at 60%, giving an overall efficinecy of
30%.

However, I can now sell my 30% efficent electricity during the day, at
more than double the price of my 40% efficient electricity generated at
night.

So at first glance, it makes sense. Of course, the capital costs also
come into it. A 1GW (electrical) output nuclear reactor will cost about
$1.6 billion. A 750MW gas turbine plant will cost about $300 million. I
have no idea about the chemical plant and hyfrogen storage facility,
but maybe a total of $600 million.

So I've increased my capital costs by about 40%. Given capital costs
account for most, but not all of the running costs, my average price of
electricity might rise by some 30%. (3c to 4c per KWHr).

However, I can now sell all my electricity at day time rates, rather
than an average of day and night rates. This MAY be profitable,
depending on the exact nature of the electricity market in question.

Using the above figures, if the choice is heating home with nuclear
electricity, or nuclear thermal hydrogen, thermal hydrogen might win
out because of higher efficiency.

using
cement,
You'd probably run the car on methanol or methane, which emit less CO2
than normal fuel. You also use local / australian coal, which is
plentiful, rather than OPEC oil.
Thanks for your thoughts - Alex


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
This is the sort of thing I was thinking of - stretch the coal
reserves, and reduce coal CO2 output fropm 1kg to .3 kg per KWHr
to
plus
60%
if
I was thinking more of thermo chemical processes such as HI reduction,
which it is claimed is 50% efficient (thermal energy to chamical
energy).

car
their
both
vacuum
foil.
for
via
need
on

It seems promising - but I wonder if it would be better to turn the
hydrogen into methanol.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
daestrom wrote:

of
higher
firm
will have
non-firm
times
ISO (or
needed.
nuc), such
Agree there, but what I'm suggesting is a nuclear plant that can
produce either electricity, or hydrogen, or a combination of the two.
It therefore works 24/7.

Only the turbines generating electricity would be switched off. That
makes it more akin to a hydro electric plant. When I'm told to stay
offline, I produce Hydrogen.

AM to

electricity.
Maybe. However, if we increase the amount of renewables in our mix,
then spot prices will fluctaute more, so there is more to be made from
selling this way. Lets say we have generating capacity of 70% nuclear
and 30% wind.


author: Dan Bloomquist

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

To make lighter the enormous reserves of tar and sand oils on the North
American continent.

Sure, but at a terrible waste of energy.

False. Use nuclear to produce electricity. Put a hydrogen vector in
there and the efficiency goes down quite a bit at a higher cost. It
makes no sense.

Using hydrogen for stationary applications will never make sense.

It ends up as fuel for a vehicle and will produce the same CO2 as using
oil at the auto. Figure in the additional infrastructure, like cement,
and you create more CO2.

Best, Dan.


author: Bob Eldred

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Alex Terrell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Whacky!  Why the hell would one use nuclear hydrogen to make electricity?
Why not use the nuclear energy to make elctricity directly in a Rankine
cycle steam plant as is now done? What is the hydrogen for? You imply using
hydrogen for some type of peaking cycle to boost the power plant's output
for peak requirements but it would be simpler and much cheaper to simply
scale the reactor for the peak reqirements. The additional generators and
other equipment are necessary anyway but no hydrogen storage or fuel boilers
would be required. Using nuclear thermal hydrogen as a syngas to synthesize
other fuels and chemicals may make some sense.  That's the way most hydrogen
produced today is used.
Bob


author: Don Lancaster

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

Current silicon pv is an energy sink rathole.
The faster it is flushed the better.
Buying into a useless technology soon to be flushed is absurd.
Especially if you delude yourself into thinking it is in any manner
renewable or sustainable today.

An immediate outright ban on conventional silicon pv would do a lot more
long term for renewable and sustainable net energy source development
than continuing its absurd use.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/ratholes.pdf


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

Wind electricity is ridiculously too expensive to waste on hydrogen
generation.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.


author: "Don W."

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Alex Terrell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

On which little island is it a reality?  You wrote "planning".

Not only is a grid connection cheaper, a diesel generator is cheaper even
with the cost of importing diesel fuel, installing the system underground
and scrubbing the exhaust.

Where is land free?  Wind is not everywhere abundant.  A century ago,
windmills were used almost exclusively to mechanically pump water.  They
can still be used for pumping water for the purpose of pumped storage.  By
what metric can a hydrogen energy storage system compete with pumped
storage?

Don W.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

The actual (but badly misquoted above) claim is that a fully installed,
fully amortized unsubsidized utility buyback system (by far the cheapest
and most reliable storage) is a net energy sink. The energy that goes
into the cells themselves is an utterly negligible consideration.

Even then, while a negligibly few cells may occasionally return as much
as 5X their production energy, the overwhelming majority do not, owing
to not being sold, short use lifetimes, high costs, or less than perfect
continuous optimization for their entire full service life.

The "cells return more energy than produced" is a hilarious and totally
bogus sideshow of misdirection. Besides being an outright lie.

The amortization cost of the synchronous inverter alone GUARANTEES that
today's silicon pv is a humongous net energy sink.

That is with completely free panels at ZERO cents per peak watt and all
other items absolutely free.

If your utility agrees to buy your electricity for a dime per kilowatt
hour and agrees to sell you electricity for a dime per kilowatt hour,
then ALL dimes presently involved will have a value of EXACTLY one
kilowatt hour.

Even when ignoring the ouatrageously ludicrous "net metering" transfer
tax penalty paid in by the other users.

I'll present a detailed analysis shortly on my WHAT'S NEW page, but the
synchronous inverter financing alone will cost you something like TWICE
what it delivers in electricity.

Thus GUARANTEEING a net energy sink.

======================

Net energy from pv WILL NOT EVER happen with conventional silicon pv.

It MAY happen eight to ten years after the fully burdened, fully
accounted costs drop under eight cents per kilowatt hour.

This will require spread or multiple workfunctions, nanoscale paths,
doubling electrons, MEMS antennas, photonic lattices, major production
breakthroughs, or metalloradicals.

Plus, of course, synchronous inverters at 1/100th their current price.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

It is CATEGORICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to seperate economics from energy.
Economics IS fundamentally energy driven.

Thermodynamic fundamentals absolutely guarantee this.
So does the big sign down the street that says UNLEADED $1.94.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Alex Terrell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You're confused if you think that economics and energy use are separate
issues.  As long as there are energy markets, there is a direct equivalency
between money and energy.  As long as there are markets for natural
resources there is a direct equivalency between natural resources and
money.  Whenever any service or product is sold there is a direct
equivalency between that product or service and money.  Money spent on
solar PV systems is not available for cleaning waterways or...

...or for systems to sequester CO2!

http://www.greatchange.org/bb-thermochemical-WNA_energy_analysis_of_power_systems.html

Except that it takes energy to make money and money spent on synchronous
inverters cannot also be used for other things that might provide greater
benefit (even greater environmental benefit) than synchronous inverters.
It's a matter of allocating resources.  Resources allocated for synchronous
inverters are no longer available for... well, ANYTHING!

Allocate your resources as you think best, but allocating those dollars to
methods of conservation might provide a much greater "energy payback" and a
much greater environmental benefit.

Thus guaranteeing that one can buy one's electricity elsewhere and still
have lots of dollars left to replace big energy consuming devices with more
efficient ones or when the washing machine needs replacement, use the extra
cash to buy a front-loader instead of a top-load, or extend your next
vacation in the mountains a few days...

What is the point to "separate out the economics from the energy"?  In the
real world the two are inseparable.  'Energy payback' is an invention of
fanatic solar advocates intended to divert attention from the obvious
downfall of solar PV.

Don W.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Alex Terrell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
"...already planning hydrogen storage to power the touristy summer"
wouldn't mean this coming summer, would it?  Gee, if the capital cost of
the tidal generator and electrolysis equipment and hydrogen storage
equipment and hydrogen to electricity equipment and the installation,
maintenance and operating costs of all that equipment totals less than the
value of the electricity it provides, they might have a gold mine there!

Such dreams don't make a strong case that such a system is practical by any
stretch of imagination.  Amazing?  Not really.

Don W.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
alex wrote:

Hope you don't mind that I snipped the above. It was pretty mangled. By
google?! Is that the agent you used?

If your 'turbine' is 60% efficient it is something like GE's H System or
a combined cycle system. Are you sure you can purchase one of these
things for $.40/watt???

There are 20,000 MWatts of pumped storage in this country. It is a cheap
and efficient method of storing energy over night. Granted, I haven't
been through all the numbers. But at this time, I don't believe all the
baggage needed for the hydrogen vector can come close to competing.

Homes are heated with fuels because of the low initial cost. Ground
water heat pumps are far more efficient than direct fuel heating.

Will the cost of creating an infrastructure to deliver hydrogen to homes
for heating make more sense than to upgrade the heating of the home in
the long run?

Here on the North American continent, there is plenty of oil. If nuclear
is used, it will most likely be to process that oil. Sand oil is running
some $15 a barrel with methane as the feed stock. Coal as the base stock
is some $35 - $45 a barrel as I recall.

Thank you.
Best, Dan.


author: daestrom

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"alex" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You won't be getting 'double the price....'.  The day vs. night price of
electric isn't just about the time of day.  The reason prices are higher
during the day has to do with demand and availability.  If you want a firm
committment to sell electricity every day from xx AM to yy PM, you will have
to accept a lower price, pretty close to the night time value.

If you want to get maximum price/MWhr, you would have to sell on a non-firm
'spot' market.  Sure, during peak summer usage, you might get 3 or 4 times
the night price.  But there would also be days you are told by the ISO (or
your state's equivalent) to stay *off-line* as your output is not needed.
For a plant with high-capital costs and low fuel costs (such as a nuc), such
an operating strategy would be financial suicide.

Assuming the plant can reliably produce electricity each day from xx AM to
yy PM, it would probably have more revenue if you bid the longer-term
base-load market.  Lower prices, but a gauranteed sale of electricity.

daestrom


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:

Posters to this NG need to understand something about conservation of
energy.  The nuclear power plant is the only source of energy for the above
proposed scheme.  Adding turbines and other "energy absorbing" units to the
nuclear power plant cannot change this fact.  Energy can be converted from
one from to another with such devices, but it cannot be created by such
devices.  Due to this, you never will get 200% of rated output from a
nuclear power plant by adding turbines and hydrogen producing plants to it.

Coal gassification processes exist.  However, until very recently, they have
been uneconomic.


author: Tim O'Flaherty

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Don W." <dNOSPAMwiddersAThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Utsira,

http://www.hydro.com/en/our_business/oil_energy/new_energy/hydrogen/winds_change.html

Location , location , location.

Regards,
Tim O


author: R.H. Allen

subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Don W. wrote:

I understand the point that Don L. is trying to make, but I think he has
been far too simplistic about it over the years. For example, he
sometimes bases the value of energy on gasoline prices and the number of
kWh equivalents in a gallon of gasoline. Sometimes he bases it on the
cost of a kWh of electricity from the utility. He never differentiates
between types of energy -- and not all forms of energy are equally
valuable (as the markets will attest). And while he insists on
discussing "fully burdened" costs, he never considers the money we spend
(via taxes, insurance premiums, and higher prices) on cleaning up after
fossil fuel users (from gas stations to nuclear waste storage) and
treating pollution-induced illnesses. Or how about this -- GDP/kWh in
the US in 2001 was nearly $385,000; if there is truly a direct
equivalence between energy and money, why not use this figure as the
value of a kWh?

There are plenty of other practical problems with this viewpoint -- for
example, energy prices vary widely from country to country. The Japanese
government claims that unsubsidized PV is competitive with utility
electricity there. Does that mean a PV module deployed in the US cannot
recover the energy used to produce it, while the same module deployed in
Japan under similar insolation can? What about the economists who argue
that adding a modest amount of PV to our electricity portfolio --
something like 10-20% of the portfolio -- would actually make
electricity *cheaper* by reducing risk from fuel price fluctuations?
It's a much more complicated and convoluted issue than Don makes it out
to be.

Speaking of economists, have any written significantly on energy/money
equivalence? I've searched five major economics databases that index
both popular and scholarly publications over the past 30 years and
cannot find a thing.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Tim O'Flaherty" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
might
it
http://www.hydro.com/en/our_business/oil_energy/new_energy/hydrogen/winds_change.html
even
underground
They
By
Now I understand why you first wrote "planning" and I'm a little mystified
why you changed that to "reality".

Notice they show some photos of windmills and none of electrolyzers,
hydrogen storage systems, fuel cells and "grid stabilizing equipment".
While those things were scheduled to be operational before now, nowhere
does the reference say they were ever actually made operational even though
the website was recently updated.  The figures given are a little
mysterious.  First they mention an island community with 240 inhabitants.
Then they reveal the outstanding truth: "The Utsira project is outstanding
in that ten households will receive all their electricity from renewable
sources in a closed system. The power consumption of the islanders varies,
but the stored hydrogen will ensure that sufficient renewable power can be
generated at any time - even when consumption is high and wind activity is
minimal."

The system can produce hydrogen at a rate of substantially less than
10Nm3/h (that's the name plate 15 bar figure, whereas the storage is at 200
bar.)  That equates to less than 3 kWh/h if the fuel cell is 100%
efficient.  If the fuel cell is a more realistic 30% efficient, then this
outstanding hydrogen system can store enough hydrogen in one hour for the
fuel cell to provide about 0.9 kWh.  They have about 2400 Nm3 of hydrogen
storage.  That equates to about 216 kWh out of the fuel cell, and it's
unlikely they would design the system to actually provide more than about
150 kWh out of the fuel cell on 2400 Nm3.  In other words, the hydrogen
part of this system is essencially useless!  Supposedly, they are trying to
balance the load of 600 kW of wind generation with less than 200 kWh of
hydrogen storage!  They better hope the wind never stops blowing for very
long.

Now that you can see how worthless the hydrogen energy storage system is,
wouldn't it be interesting to see how many dollars in monetary resources
were transferred into the pockets of the equipment providers, shippers and
installers?  Those 10 households would be very reluctant to purchase the
system if the money came out of THEIR pockets, I'm sure!  For whatever they
would have to pay, they would each get about 20 kWh of energy storage.
Lead acid batteries would be substantially cheaper, and even maintenance
would be less!  PEM fuel cells have a notoriously short lifespan on the
membrane and it's likely that the electrolyzer requires expensive routine
maintenance for the electrodes as well.

I'm not opposed to outstanding new technology.  This just isn't it and this
never will be it.  Unfortunately, there are these silly demonstrations that
only demonstrate silliness, yet they never tell the REST of the story, so
the hydrogen cheerleaders continue to cheer.

Don W.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Tim O'Flaherty" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
might
it
http://www.hydro.com/en/our_business/oil_energy/new_energy/hydrogen/winds_change.html
even
underground
They
By

Tim, I just realized you're not Alex and Utsira is apparently not the
island off Germany to which Alex was refering.  Did you notice the numbers
posted on the link?  55kW fuel cell and enough hydrogen storage to produce
55kW out of the fuel cell for about 4 hours.  Think the wind ever dies for
more than 4 hours?

If you can find any figures for how much this boondoggle cost, I'd like to
know.  I'd also like to know who paid for it.  Guaranteed, the folks who
paid for it had little or no say in the matter (taxpayers somewhere.)

Don W.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
R.H. Allen wrote:

One of the many definitive papers is
http://www.oilanalytics.org/neten/neten.html


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Don W." <dNOSPAMwiddersAThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email]...
summer"
hydrogen
equipment
http://www.hydro.com/en/our_business/oil_energy/new_energy/hydrogen/winds_change.html

Hi Don, sorry for just slipping that in.  The bulk of the costs were paid
for by the investor owned utility, it is a demonstration project. The
company, Hydro  also sells elctrolysers so that would also explain thier
willingness to finance this project.  There are some tax dollars involved
but the lions share was Hydro money.    I understand that another island,
Iceland,  is doing quite a bit with  hydrogen.  I don't think hydrogen is
going to save us, we need cheap energy for that or very cheap storage.
Iceland has lots of geothermal so it works for them.

While pumped hydro may be cheaper where it is possible it isn't possible
without the right topography.

Regards,
Tim O


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

This appears to be nothing more than a review of various methods of
energy accounting. I'll have to track down the references and see if
there is anything more interesting there. Admittedly I haven't read it
as closely as I should -- I will when I get more time -- but I see
nothing in this article that expresses anything resembling your
energy/money equivalence viewpoint. Indeed, some of the methods it
covers seem to expressly reject that view.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
"Tim O'Flaherty" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You're exactly right, and hydrogen is neither cheap energy nor cheap
storage!

Maybe it works for them, and if it does, that's great!  'Maybe' because
Iceland has lots of underground heat and bringing that heat to the surface
and processing it so that it "works for them" consumes resources.  If the
resources consumed are greater in value than the diesel it would take to do
the same work, then the underground heat didn't really work for them.
Proper analysis of the systems in Iceland would almost certainly show this
to be the case just like Utsira.

Sure it is.  For a price the right topography can be built (raised tanks.)
The Utsira demonstration project demonstrated that 200 kWh can be stored in
a system consisting of a 55kW fuel cell, 2400 Nm^3 hydrogen storage tank
(200 bar), 200 bar hydrogen compressor, 3kW electrolyzer and all the
associated plumbing and safety equipment.  How much do you think that cost
(including maintenance and operating costs)?  How much do you think it
would cost for a raised tank capable of storing 200 kWh plus 3kW pump/55kW
generator plus associated plumbing, safety equipment, maintenance and
operation?  How much do you think it would cost for a 55kW diesel generator
plus fuel, mainenance and operating costs?

Don W.


subject: Re: Turning Hydrogen into electricity

text:
R.H. Allen wrote:

You clearly get the energy economics equivalance at the utility
interface terminals of your pv panel system.

If your system delivers two dimes worth of electricity a day and your
amortization is three dimes worth of electricity a day, you clearly have
a net energy sink that is needlessly destroying already existing energy
resources.

And, of course, is thus in no manner renewable nor sustainable.

If a utility offers to buy at a dime per kilowatt hour and sells at a
dime per kilowatt hour, then ALL dimes presently directly involved in
the transaction are clearly worth one kilowatt hour.

Giving an exactly defined equivalance.


author: Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

subject: Daily Spirit-guided health tip for 10/17/08

text:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/b388497f51a9bd97?

May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
2008th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah,
the Son of Man ...

... by being hungrier:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?

Hunger is wonderful ! ! !

It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f43db72a7c5c1da0?

Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?

"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...

... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)

Amen.

Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?

Be hungrier, which is truly healthier:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?

Marana tha

Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,

Andrew <><


subject: Re: Daily Spirit-guided health tip for 10/17/08

text:
ABC,
How often does God tell
you to post this "Crap"?
Hearing voices?
Schizophrenia?

PA

On Oct 17, 9:32 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]>
wrote:


text:
rpautrey2 wrote:

It remains my choice to continue writing truthfully.

No.

No.

Simply feeling GOD's smile :-)

<><

"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?


text:
ABC,
Would you please quit posting this "CRAP"?
Go join a "Kook Group".
PA

On Oct 17, 3:56 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]>
wrote:


text:
rpautrey2 wrote:

It remains my choice to continue doing what GOD desires rather than
what you want:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bec08524c1242c42?

<><

"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?


text:
i wonder if the people at bell south in atlanta would agree with you

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:


text:
convicted neighbor % wrote:

BellSouth no longer exists as an independent corporation:

http://TruthRUS.org/DavidvsGoliath/

<><

"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?


author: MARCO ANELLI

subject: Smith Barney?

text:
I just happened to see a photocopy of a very
interesting newsletter/bulletin called:

        SMITH BARNEY
        Biotechnology: Drugs in development for stroke and brain injury

the date was October 14, 1994

Could anybody tell me something more about this publication? (eg. who
makes it, how to subscribe etc.)

Many thanks in advance

Marco Anelli MD

[email]

---
 ï¿½ SLMR 2.1a ï¿½
---
 ï¿½ SLMR 2.1a ï¿½


author: Nigel deGruyther

subject: Re: Smith Barney?

text:
Smith Barney is a brokerage / trading house in New York.  The publication you
saw would be one of their industry outlooks.  Your broker should be able to
get these for you, or if you have access to a bloomberg system, you could get
them yourself.

Nigel.

MARCO ANELLI ([email]) wrote:

: I just happened to see a photocopy of a very
: interesting newsletter/bulletin called:

:         SMITH BARNEY
:         Biotechnology: Drugs in development for stroke and brain injury

: the date was October 14, 1994

: Could anybody tell me something more about this publication? (eg. who
: makes it, how to subscribe etc.)

: Many thanks in advance

: Marco Anelli MD

: [email]

: ---
:  ï¿½ SLMR 2.1a ï¿½
: ---
:  ï¿½ SLMR 2.1a ï¿½


author: Steve Dyer

subject: Re: Smith Barney?

text:
In article <[email]>,
MARCO ANELLI <[email]> wrote:

Smith Barney is an American investment/brokerage firm.  This is
undoubtedly a newsletter containing investment advice.  I haven't seen
that bulletin, but it probably describes a class of substances known
collectively as "lazaroids", antioxidant drugs which are said to
prevent damage after neurological insults (stroke, head trauma.)
Recently one US company (Lilly?) halted a study of one of these drugs
because of increased morbidity in the patients receiving the drug.  (In
other words, it's a long way from the laboratory to the pharmacy.)


author: Doctor Q

subject: fiber optic handpiece tubing and connector

text:
where to buy ISO-C handpiece tubing connector?

not the tubing (hose) but just the connector with
6 pin holes?

don't tell me American Dental Accessories, I already checked
with them.


author: Bill Stoney

subject: Re: fiber optic handpiece tubing and connector

text:
Do you want it in plastic or metal?
Bill
"Doctor Q" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: pontic

text:
[email] (Doctor Q) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

 OK. OK. I won't. What unit is this for? Model# please.
Pontic


text:
"Bill Stoney" <[email]> wrote in message news:<Sicz7.175249$[email]>...

either one will be fine.
I though 6 pins are in plastic only, because of the
electrical connection.


author: Ian B MacLure

subject: Re: Worlds Worst Warships

text:
Mark Sieving <[email]> wrote in news:b7aa7b59-4cba-4ee2-
[email]:

    	Making it to Pearl Harbor and back was about the limit of what the
    	IJN fleet train could support.

    	IBM


author: Jim Wilkins

subject: Re: Worlds Worst Warships

text:
"Ian B MacLure" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns9FDA71A23F648ibmsvpalorgl@216.196.121.131...

They withdrew from Hawaii without accomplishing all their objectives due to
concern of how exposed and vulnerable they were.
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1767

jsw


subject: Re: Worlds Worst Warships

text:
"Jim Wilkins" <[email]> wrote in
news:jet2ba$bb6$[email]:

    	Yes.
    	They didn't get the carriers and that was a very serious
    	problem for them.

    	IBM


author: Sound of Trumpet

subject: Ancient Kingdom Of Edom Discovered - New Evidence That Bolsters A Doubted Biblical Tale

text:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1648705/posts

In a Ruined Copper Works, Evidence That Bolsters a Doubted Biblical
Tale

New York Times ^ | 6/13/2006 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 06/13/2006 12:20:10 PM PDT by Sabramerican

In biblical lore, Edom was the implacable adversary and menacing
neighbor of the Israelites. The Edomites lived south of the Dead Sea
and east of the desolate rift valley known as Wadi Arabah, and from
time to time they had to be dealt with by force, notably by the likes
of Kings David and Solomon.

Today, the Edomites are again in the thick of combat - of the
scholarly kind. The conflict is heated and protracted, as is often the
case with issues related to the reliability of the Bible as history.

Chronology is at the crux of the debate. Exactly when did the nomadic
tribes of Edom become an organized society with the might to threaten
Israel? Were David and Solomon really kings of a state with growing
power in the 10th century B.C.? Had writers of the Bible magnified the
stature of the two societies at such an early time in history?

An international team of archaeologists has recorded radiocarbon dates
that they say show the tribes of Edom may have indeed come together in
a cohesive society as early as the 12th century B.C., certainly by the
10th. The evidence was found in the ruins of a large copper-processing
center and fortress at Khirbat en-Nahas, in the lowlands of what was
Edom and is now part of Jordan.

Thomas E. Levy, a leader of the excavations, said in an interview last
week that the findings there and at abandoned mines elsewhere in the
region demonstrated that the Edomites had developed a complex state
much earlier than previously thought.

Dr. Levy, an archaeologist at the University of California, San Diego,
said the research had yielded not only the first high-precision dates
in the region, but also such telling artifacts as scarabs, ceramics,
metal arrowheads, hammers, grinding stones and slag heaps. Radiocarbon
analysis of charred wood, grain and fruit in several sediment layers
revealed two major phases of copper processing, first in the 12th and
11th centuries, later in the 10th and 9th.

Khirbat en-Nahas is 30 miles from the Dead Sea and 30 miles north of
Petra, Jordan's most famous archaeological site. The name means "ruins
of copper" in Arabic. One of the first ancient occupation sites in the
Edomite lowlands to be intensively investigated, the ruins of its
buildings and grounds spread over 24 acres, and the fortifications
enclose an area 240 by 240 feet.

"Only a complex society such as a paramount chiefdom or primitive
kingdom would have the organizational know-how to produce copper metal
on such an industrial scale," Dr. Levy concluded.

The first results of the research by Dr. Levy and Mohammad Najjar,
director of excavations and surveys at the Department of Antiquities of
Jordan, were described two years ago at a conference at the University
of Oxford, England, and in a report in the British journal Antiquity.
Reverberations of support and criticism have shaken the field of
biblical archaeology ever since.

With the addition of new dates and more evidence of the importance of
copper in the emergence of Edom, the two archaeologists have amplified
their interpretations in an article being published this month in the
magazine Biblical Archaeology Review.

"We have discovered a degree of social complexity in the land of Edom,"
they wrote, "that demonstrates the weak reed on the basis of which a
number of scholars have scoffed at the idea of a state or complex
chiefdom in Edom at this early period."

The findings, Dr. Levy and Dr. Najjar added, lend credence to biblical
accounts of the rivalry between Edom and the Israelites in what was
then known as Judah. By extension, they said, this supported the
tradition that Judah itself had by the time of David and Solomon, in
the early 10th century, emerged as a kingdom with ambition and the
means of fighting off the Edomites.

The Hebrew Bible mentioned the Edomites no fewer than 99 times. In
Genesis, Esau, Jacob's twin brother, is described as the ancestor of
the Edomites, and a reference is made to "the kings who reigned in the
land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites." Dr. Levy
said this statement showed that the Israelites acknowledged Edom's
early political development.

In the context, Dr. Levy and Dr. Najjar wrote, "the biblical references
to the Edomites, especially their conflicts with David and subsequent
Judahite kings, garner a new plausibility."


author: serwad

subject: Re: Ancient Kingdom Of Edom Discovered - New Evidence That Bolsters A Doubted Biblical Tale

text:
"Sound of Trumpet" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
 Shit yeah, and they also found  Jew Times newspapers wrapped in the Golden
Calf!


author: Mark K. Bilbo

text:
Previously, on alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet in episode
<[email]>...

New Orleans discovered! Ann Rice's works confirmed! Vampires exist!


author: Matt Giwer

subject:
Re: Ancient Kingdom Of Edom Discovered - New Evidence That Bolsters
 A Doubted Biblical Tale

text:
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

	Great news! An area population since Homo Sapiens left Africa some 50,000 years
ago was still populated during the time the New Kingdom of Egypt ruled the east
coast of the Med up through Syria to the Euphrates.


author: Frank

text:
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

They are still with us. They migrated to the Netherlands where they
make excellent cheese.

Frank.


author: 2500 Dead

text:
On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:07:38 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<[email]> wrote:

There IS a New York City!  Spiderman exists!

Superman fans remain hopeful.


author: John Baker

text:
On 17 Jun 2006 23:39:49 -0700, "Frank" <[email]>
wrote:

Wouldn't that be the Edamites? <G>


author: johac

text:
In article <[email]>,
 2500 Dead <[email]> wrote:

Metropolis (Illinois) has also been discovered!

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Metropolis,+IL

Superman is real!


author: Lawrence Glickman

subject: Re: Get Your KGB ID. (Or  else!!)

text:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:24:31 GMT, "Crazy Bastard" <[email]>
wrote:

It would be nice if they would share information with eachother, as in
some sort of Global Antiterrorism Alliance, because somebody might
have some information that another agency is still looking for.

Failure to communicate is easily responsible for more than 50% of
today's problems, from corporate to State to Global.

Lg
misc.survivalism


author: Dale Eastman

subject: Re: Get Your KGB ID. (Or  else!!)

text:
Lawrence Glickman wrote:

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf?lang=en


author: Crazy Bastard

subject: Re: Get Your KGB ID. (Or  else!!)

text:
"Lawrence Glickman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

We do share information.  But therein is also the problem.  We share it
AFTER we have acquired it.  We need to coordinate activities DURING the
process of acquiring that information.

Otherwise we could have this:  Russians set up a sting in Libya, US
infiltrates the sting not knowing its a Russian sting, Russia thinks we're
Al Qaeda, MI6 knows who we are but thinks the Russians are Al Qaeda, Mossad
happens along and assassinates MI6 guys thinking they were the target of the
sting and responsible for the bombings in Egypt, Russians quickly
arrest/kill our guys, MI6 is very fucking pissed off at everybody, and
nobody learned one damned thing.

Messy.

Exactly.  About half the world's intelligence agencies confirmed the CIA's
intel that Iraq had WMD.  How could they all be wrong?  How could they all
be exactly the same wrong?

And we have a similar problem already happenning.  Osama is in the Pakistan
mountains.  Osama is in Iran.  Pick one.  The world's intelligence agencies
are split.

This is going to get messy before it gets better.


author: Laylow

subject: High-Low Temp. Polyurethane

text:
I need a drive wheel and I was hoping to have it made from
polyurethane because of its excellent wear properties.  The only
problem is the temperature range.  I need a wheel that can withstand
temperatures from -30F to 250F without cracking or melting.

I would also be interested in other rubbers if someone knows of
anything better than EPDM.  However, I've run a polyurethane wheel for
several hours with no signs of wear and would really like to make this
work.

Thanks
Steve


author: Thomas Koenig

subject: Re: High-Low Temp. Polyurethane

text:
Laylow <[email]> wrote:

250 F (around 120 ï¿½C, right?) is pretty high for polyurethanes,
because that's above the melting temperatures of the hard segments,
i.e. the polyisocyanate segments.

That's the main reason why people still use synthetic rubber for
tires.  It's bad if you step on the brakes and the tire suddenly
starts melting :-)

Do you really need the high temperature?  If not, then the PU
might really be your best choice.

"Better" in what sense?

I suspect that EPDM could have problems with the low temperature
limit that you set.

There are quite a few synthetic rubbers to choose from.  I think
Bayer has a pretty complete product line.  You can check out
http://www.rubber.bayer.com for an overview.


subject: Re: High-Low Temp. Polyurethane

text:
Thanks,

I had no idea Bayer made rubber.  I might be able to settle for 200F
for the high end but I still have a problem on the low side.  This
drive wheel will be sitting in a piece of equipment on top of a roof
so it is going to see whatever temperatures the roof sees.  I have to
expect that wheel will be subjected to -30F a few times a year and
temps around 32F for a few months.  This is probably a bigger problem
at softer durometers so I would probably want something on the hard
side.

Better than EPDM in tear and abrasion at a reasonable price.  I am
willing to consider more expensive stuff.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.  I haven't had time to fully explore
Bayer's website but I will soon.

Laylow


subject: Foreign Travel Power Adapter For Video Camera (US camera in Italy)??????

text:
Could someone give some insight on purchasing a foreign travel power adapter
for a US video camera.  Someone is taking a trip from the US to Italy and wants
to show Italian family members videos that were made in the US and charge the
camera's batteries while in Italy.  The video camera (a Sony) was made for the
US market and the person does NOT intend to hook up the video camera to an
Italian TV or Italian computer video monitor.  The adapter would ONLY be used
to charge the video camera's battery and show videos through the video camera's
small LCD monitor.  The foreign travel power adapters I looked at seemed
intended to be used for appliances with heating elements.  The power adapter in
this case would be used to power the charging system of the video camera (Sony
has an internal charging system in its video cameras).  I think my concerns
deal with the type of AC in Italy....I'm sure the adapters will drop the
voltage to around 110...but I'm concerned that the CYCLES PER SECOND are
different than the US and could damage the charging system of the video camera.
 Any thoughts or recommendations are appreciated.


author: dB

subject: Re: Foreign Travel Power Adapter For Video Camera (US camera in Italy)??????

text:
I don't know what the domestic mains voltage is in Italy.  A decent
travel agent should be able to tell you, or a 'phone call to the
Italian embassy or consulate.  You mention 110 volts in your question
but you'd better check all the same.  I suspect it is 220.  In which
case, for your purpose, a transformer is indicated.  Franzus, amongst
other manufacturers, sell a range of (physical) adapters to enable a
U.S. plug to connect to foreign sockets and I'm sure they also sell a
suitable (50VA) transformer.  The frequency is, in this application,
irrelative.
n.b  If their voltage serendipitously happens to be 110 the
transformer is not needed.


author: SDL

text:
In Italy, the domestic mains voltage is:
220 V 50 Hz

"dB" <[email]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email]...


author: Palaces For The People

text:
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=123-02182004

Secretary Abraham Travels to West Virginia, Iowa, Michigan; Discusses
Technology, Jobs, Energy Efficiency, Hydrogen

Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham will travel to Fairview, West
Virginia; Davenport, Iowa; and Lansing, Mich., on Thursday, Feb. 19,
to discuss different programs within the Department of Energy.

First, Secretary Abraham will stop in Fairview, West Virginia to visit
mine workers displaced by a mine fire last year. The Department of
Energy provided financial assistance to CONSOL Energy to help cover
the costs to test an innovative fire suppression system at the
Fairview mine. The modified jet engine system successfully fought the
fire, allowing miners to come back to work roughly six months earlier
than the conventional method of letting the fire burn itself out.

Next, Secretary Abraham will travel to Bettendorf, Iowa to visit a
home undergoing a weatherization process, which on average saves
homeowners $218 annually in energy costs. This year, the DOE is giving
$4.9 million to the State of Iowa for the Weatherization of low-income
homes.

Finally, Secretary Abraham will travel to Lansing, Mich., to announce
a series of Hydrogen workshops. This supports President Bush's
Hydrogen Economy initiative.

Following are details of Thursday's events:

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2004

WHO: Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham

WHAT: Brief remarks, Media Availability

WHERE: CONSOL Energy's Loveridge Mine Training Center, Fairview, W.V.

WHEN: 10 a.m. (EST)

---

WHO: Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham

WHAT: Tour, Media Availability

WHERE: 3018 Magnolia Drive, Bettendorf, Iowa

WHEN: 12:15 p.m. (CST)

---

WHO: Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham

WHAT: Brief remarks, Media Availability

WHERE: 3:30 p.m.

WHEN: Technology Learning Center at Lansing Community College (Corner
of Capital Ave. and Shiawassee St.), Lansing, Mich.

http://www.usnewswire.com/


author: Wake Up America

subject: Re: Secretary Abraham Travels to West Virginia, Iowa, Michigan; Discusses Technology, Jobs, Energy Efficiency, Hydrogen

text:
"Corporations have been enthroned. An era of corruption in high places will
 follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on
 the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and
 the Republic is destroyed. "
 -Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

"Palaces For The People" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Vendicar Decarian

text:
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger
of state and corporate power."-Benito Mussolini

"Wake Up America" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
will
on
and


author: Donald Stahl

subject: Hungarian

text:
Recently a Hungarian acquaintance told me that many Hungarians,
including himself, do not accept the idea of Hungarian being related
to Finnish. Rather, they claim a descent from Sumerian. What is known,
in particular about Sumerian, that would give rise to such a claim?


author: Fánaí Gaelach na nGleannta

subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On 30 Juni, 05:58, "Peter T. Daniels" <[email]> wrote:

I couldn't know about it making any sense, but the fact is that it's
part of Finnish nationalistic tradition.


author: Peter T. Daniels

subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On Jun 27, 2:08 pm, Oliver Cromm <[email]>
wrote:

What sense does it make that Finnish nationalists would be happily
excited about being related to Hungarians?


subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On Jun 25, 11:15 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <[email]> wrote:

Is anyone seeing new messages? Please email me.


subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On Jun 25, 11:15 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <[email]> wrote:

Thanks to the four who have written to me.


subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On Jun 24, 6:53 pm, Fánaí Gaelach na nGleannta <[email]>
wrote:

What's that supposed to mean? Now that you know the content of
Hungarian literature, you're eager to claim kinship with it?


subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On 25 Juni, 14:36, "Peter T. Daniels" <[email]> wrote:

Are you playing your Asperger act again? It means: now that I am
fluent enough in the language to read literature with a dictionary
(this serves solely to illustrate the level of proficiency), I am
proficient enough to have a first-hand knowledge of the relationship,
a feeling for it so to speak.

I think your Asperger act feels more and more similar to Franz's, and
I also begin to interpret your comments as malevolent stalking.


subject: Re: Hungarian

text:
On Jun 25, 11:10 am, Fánaí Gaelach na nGleannta
<[email]> wrote:

Then explain what your sniggering used to be about, and now isn't.

(Maybe you don't fully grasp the meaning of "snigger," which after all
isn't a common word. What your original statement says is that you
looked down on Finnish nationalists who were displeased at being
called relatives of Magyars. I don't see how becoming familiar with
Hungarian literature would cause you to be more appreciative of the
nationalists' bigotry.)