author: Keyser Soze

subject: Re: Well Now That Was A Nice Lil  MELTDOWN, Kadouche Bag Style.

text:
Fred Hall wrote:

You prized fuck up! Where did he ask 'Do you know' for you to
afford an incorrectly associated response, eh, you retarded fuck?

You know.

'Do you know 'how to get to London'.

'No, you hum it, and I'll play it.'

You fucked up cunt.


author: Onideus Mad Hatter

text:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:14:50 -0000, "Keyser Soze"
<[email]> wrote:

You know the only reason you defend other people on USENET is because
you don't have any sort of social life in the REAL WORLD.  Funny that,
huh?    ^_^

 --

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ï¿½ x ï¿½
http://www.backwater-productions.net


text:
I am scum, an ocean of scum. You've reminded me, oh, it never leaves my
thoughts, no matter how I beg that I have repaid your indulgence only with
heartache. It would be your right, perhaps your duty, for you to remove your
link to my page. Say the word, and I will remove a bodily organ in apology.


text:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:34:30 +1100, Onideus Mad Hatter
<[email]> wrote:

He, he, he...first post editing, now forgeries, don't you stupid tards
have ANYTHING original?

 --

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ï¿½ x ï¿½
http://www.backwater-productions.net


subject: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
I have read some posts that claim that flax seed oil helps to raise
the good hdl cholesterol.  I was at the store yesterday looking at a
bottle of flax seed oil and noticed that it is mostly poly-unsaturated
oil and very little mono-unsaturated.  Poly-unsaturated oil lowers ALL
cholesterol, including hdl.  What is the magic in flax seed oil that
RAISES the hdl?  Thank you very much.


author: Marvin Nelson

subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
Hi,

I would be interested in where you have seen the posts that flax oil raises
hdl.

Much of the effect of flax oil depends on what it is substituted for in the
diet, this probably explains the inconsistencies in the research.

In general, the research shows that with flax oil hdl either stays the same
or raises and ldl either stays the same or is reduced.  So generally no harm
and maybe help.

Flaxseed more consistantly lowers ldl than oil by itself.  Seems to be the
high fiber, especially the soluble fiber in flaxseed.

Lignans haven't shown much effect on cholesterol, but a big effect on
atherosclerosis (reduction) has been shown in animal studies.  High lignan
flax oil is kind of a joke, if you decide you want lignans, eat some ground
seed.

Remember when evaluating flax that heart disease is complex and cholesterol
isn't the whole story.

Some people talking flax will interchange flax oil and flaxseed as if they
are the same, this increases confusion.

Best Wishes,
Marv

"bc_acadia" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
FWIT we grind our own flax seeds. We keep it in the frig to keep it
fresh. I have always wondered about the oil...if it could get rancid.


subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
Hi,

Almost any oil will get rancid with time.  Flax oil should last at least a
few months without problems.  Interestingly, because of its very high
unsaturation, you can keep flax oil in the fridge or even the freezer and it
won't solidify.  This would extend the time to rancidity significantly.

Research would indicate the ground flax is good for at least 200 days on the
shelf, longer if refrigerated, plenty of time to use it.  Much of the
"instant" rancidity stories seems to come from people selling whole flaxseed
who don't want to go to the hassle of grinding it and therefore convince
people it wouldn't be good.  It seems the 55 year old guy that started
taking flax after a heart attack almost enjoys the grinding each day of the
flaxseed as a ritual that is protecting his heart.  Ask a busy mother trying
to get several kids to use a little flax on their cereal and she doesn't
want the hassle each time.

Best Wishes,
Marv

<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
Marvin Nelson wrote:

That seems unlikely IMO but maybe I'm wrong.  I would think ground flax seed
left unrefrigerated would be oxidized within two days at most.  What's your
basis for saying it does not oxidize significantly for 200 days when left
unrefrigerated?  Thanks

Bill


subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
This is true.  I just bought some flax oil and on the bottle it says
it CAN be stored in the FREEZER.  Take care.


author: Quentin Grady

subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
This post not CC'd by email
 On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:07:49 GMT, "Marvin Nelson"
<[email]> wrote:

G'day G'day Marvin,

 I use flax fibre which I buy in kilo containers.  It keeps happily in
the fridge or freezer.  It can be used straight from the freezer.
As it has no water content it remains perfectly free flowing.


subject: Re: Confusion about flax seed oil

text:
Again what I say is research based.  While there are other studies the
easiest source online is a flaxcouncil faq sheet available at:

http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/pdf/stor.pdf

Notes:
1. Researchers used worse conditions than flaxseed would normally be exposed
to, for instance light in most studies.  Controlling light and temperature
should allow ground flax to be kept without significant oxidation for well
over a year, but no reason to do that, better to eat it :-)

2.  Studies were on ground flaxseed, not flaxseed mixed with other foods as
would happen with mixes, etc in a supermarket.  Some evidence indicates the
storage time would be reduced significantly in those cases so most of the
flax used in supermarket products is whole and must be chewed to get
nutrients.

3.  Much of the "culture" built up around flaxseed consumption seems to be
based on making it inconvenient and tedious for the consumer, and easier for
the supplier.  In addition many of the false facts have taken on a life of
their own and are widely spread.

4.  Note that the alpha-linolenic acid that is the basis of the instant
oxidation claims for flaxseed is also present though in lower quantities in
other oils.  While I personally shudder at the clear plastic containers that
are the container of choice here, most oil does indeed have adequate
shelf-life.

5.  Most of the rancidity with flax problems have to do with the time in
storage and on the shelf.  While a couple of hundred days is a long time for
you to consume the product if I grind it and mail it to you.  It is not a
long time to go through a distributor and sit on a shelf before outdated.

Best Wishes,
Marv

<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the
seed
your


author: Do Not Mind Me

subject: Online Stalkers On Usenet How To Deal With Them?

text:
Well this is pretty serious.  I used to be on AOL, I liked to post on
usenet but I couldn't do it without this one guy responding to every
post I made calling me childish names.

I changed my name numerous times, he always found out who I was and
would call me childish names, so I'd be forced to change my name again,
it went on for a long time.  He's even accused other people of being
me, and it'd be quite funny if I was an outsider looking at this crazy
shit happen, but actually  having someone stalk  you fucking sucks.

I've moved from AOL to Road Runner and I have the same IP address for
every post.  Now I can't do nothing to hide from this guy.  I try to
change my name and avoid him but he some how always finds out what name
I'm posting under.

He has made a list of names I've posted on and has posted it numerous
times.

I am trying to find  some help.  This is serious.  If there are any
lawyers out there that would like to help me out please get in contact
with me, this is a real email address I'm posting from.

Thanks for the help everyone.


author: David E. Powell

subject: Re: Online Stalkers On Usenet How To Deal With Them?

text:
Do Not Mind Me wrote:

snip

The man you are trolling helps run a railroad. That=Having a life.


text:
~Îñ©üßü§~ wrote:

Why don't you leave me alone?  It's no wonder my stalker replied to
this thread, he's been replying to everything I write for the last few
years.

Are you stupid?  When did I say I had your phone number and address?
Are you just pretending to be stupid so you can call me a liar or are
you really that stupid?  You must be that stupid, a normal person
wouldn't be stalking me for years.

Please, if there are any lawyers reading this thread you can contact me
through the email address I'm posting under, it's a valid address.  I'd
really appreciate some help with this nutjob that won't leave me alone.


text:
David E. Powell wrote:

He has a job only a person that didn't go to college would take, so
that makes him better then other people and that gives him the right to
stalk them for years?

Please you dumb shit, don't stick up for a stalking lunatic, if you
can't see that he's obsessed with me and won't leave me alone you need
to open your damn eyes.


text:
SCRUFF wrote:

You really need to pay closer attention to the times I post, a few
posts in the morning time(before I go to work) a few at lunchtime(when
I come home to post at lunch) and then some now after work.

You really need to stop telling made up lies about when I post, you're
not that obsessed with me to actually  know, so we know you're just
lying.

Anyway you're the lady that's pissed off at me for speaking the true
thoughts in my mind, I said that I can't picture a female that posts on
usenet being attractive or under 300 lbs,  you really need to stop
caring so much about that statement.

I have the right to an opinion, so quit spreading your lies, stupid
troll.


text:
Red Herring wrote:

My stalker doesn't live in Salt Lake.  I wish I knew the city he lived
in, I would call them for sure and let them know, maybe they can track
him down through his IP address, I have it logged since he can't help
himself from leaving abusive childish messages in my guestbook.


author: Cah

text:
Post anonymously to Usenet discussion groups -
http://www.inetprivacy.com/a4proxy/use-anonymous-usenet.htm

All messages you send to Usenet include your IP address in the
technical, usually invisible, part of the message, called "headers".
Here's a good article about how to read and understand them:
http://www.technomom.com/writing/usenetheaders.html

If you participate in Usenet discussions, then quite a lot about you
can be learned from analyzing them, and even if you use different
nicknames, the IP address will be the same everywhere (provided that
you use a broadband connection; if you use a modem, the IP will be
different every time you connect, so the problem won't be so serious).
Since the IP address gives any hacker the starting point to try and get
into your computer, quite a few people are interested in hiding their
IP address from public Usenet discussions.

In order to post an untraceable message you could use a so-called
anonymous remailer (which would work for email too), a service which
receives the message from you, strips out all original headers together
with the information about your location and IP address, and then
re-sends the message to its final destination. This approach is often
inconvenient and unreliable. Using A4Proxy for the same purpose is much
easier.

Although A4Proxy doesn't work with ordinary newsreader software like
Forte Agent or Outlook because these programs require protocols that
are not supported by A4Proxy, you can still send anonymous news
messages using web-based Usenet services like http://groups.google.com.
When you connect to their web interface through A4Proxy and send the
message using their web forms, your IP address is hidden from them and
it is not present in your postings.

We also have a new anonymizing product, AntiFirewall, which allows you
to read and post to newsgroups anonymously with ordinary newsreader
software like Forte Agent. Please have a look at
http://www.antifirewall.com for more details.


text:
Cah wrote:

Thanks for the info, but I don't think I should have to hide this
information just so I won't be stalked, I realize it might be the only
option, but I rather the guy just left me alone, or I wish I could get
him into some real trouble, maybe if he had a chance to going to jail
like a stalker in real life this guy would give up and leave me the
fuck alone.

Thanks for the info I'll check it out in a few minutes.


text:
~Îñ©üßü§~ wrote:
elf from leaving abusive childish messages in my guestbook.

This is why I don't like you, the lies you type, you actually believe.

Why are you leaving messages in my guestbook?  Why are you responding
to a thread I started again?  Cause you can't leave me alone,  you
never will leave me alone, the only thing I can hope for is that you
die or get arrested for something an insane stalker would do.

I'm sure you'll be caught soon.


text:
tarbat1 wrote:

Just watch out, if you are honest and tell someone you don't like them,
be prepared to be stalked for years.

The nut just won't give up.


author: Linda Gore

text:
Do Not Mind Me wrote:

http://www.ncvc.org/src/main.aspx?dbID=DB_Cyberstalking814
Recommendations for Victims of On-line Stalking

If you are being harassed on-line, there are several things you should
do:

1. If you are under 18, tell your parents or an adult you trust that
you are being harassed or threatened. Do not keep this to yourself.
Parents must know what is going on to be able to help and support you.

2. If you are getting harassing e-mail, get a new account or request a
new log-on name and password from your Internet service provider. Close
your old account. Learn how to use the filtering capabilities of your
e-mail program to block e-mail from certain addresses.

3. Save every piece of communication you get from the cyberstalker.
Save all of the header information you can if it's an e-mail or
newsgroup posting. Print a hard copy, and copy the communication to a
disk for documentation.

4. Start a log of each communication explaining the situation in more
detail. Document how the harassment is affecting your life and what
steps you're taking to stop it.

5. Once and only once, contact your harasser directly and state in
simple, strong, and formal terms to stop contacting you and/or posting
anything about you. State that the communications are unwanted and
inappropriate, and that you will take further action if it does not
stop. E-mail a copy to the system administrator of your Internet
service provider. Save copies of these communications, and note that
you sent them in your log.

6. If you receive harassing on-line messages and it is possible to
trace the origin of the unwanted message and you have informed the
sender that you do not want to be contacted, you may want to consider
reporting the on-line stalker to the Internet service provider (ISP)
because many ISPs have policies that prohibit the use of their services
to harass or abuse another person. Some ISPs may be willing to cancel
the stalker's account. If you receive abusive e-mail, identify the
domain (letters after the @ sign) and contact the ISP. Most ISPs have
an e-mail address such as abuse@[domain name] or postmaster@[domain
name] that can be used for complaints. If that does not work, you can
usually find contact addresses by going to
www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois (do a "who is" search on
whatever ISP you need). If e-mail complaints don't work, make a phone
call. Save copies of these communications, and note all contacts in
your log.

Keep in mind, however, that this may be just a short-term fix or may
even exacerbate the situation if the stalker discovers that you
notified the ISP. [Under those circumstances, he/she may attempt to
retaliate against you or begin/continue to stalk you off-line.
Regardless of whether the on-line stalking ceases, you need to be aware
that the stalker may have obtained personal information on you via the
Internet or through other sources, and, consequently, you may be still
at risk for off-line stalking, in which case you need to do appropriate
safety planning.]

7. Contact your local police. Report every incident of on-line abuse
and provide the police with copies of evidence you have collected. Save
copies of any police incident reports, and note each contact to law
enforcement in your log. If the stalker is out of state, you should
also contact your local office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Call the FBI Computer Crimes Unit in your local area. [The Federal
Interstate Stalking and Prevention Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2261A, was
amended in 2000 to cover on-line stalking as well as stalking by phone
and mail. Also, some on-line stalking cases may fall under 18 U.S.C.
Section 875, Interstate Communications (to make threats to physically
harm or kidnap another person in interstate communications is a felony)
or 47 U.S.C. Section 223, Obscene or Harassing Telephone Calls in
Interstate Communications.]


text:
"Do Not Mind Me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I don't know you or your problem but it is not a new one.
Be very careful what info you put out on the net as it can be used by
stalkers to hurt you.

You CAN change your IP.
Release and Renew!

In Windows 98 I think it's WINIPCFG.EXE but I'm not sure what they call it
in XP.
MicroBorg doesn't tell you about it but it's there.

You should be able to ask RR Support for help in how to do it.
Also there might be some RR Newsgroups you could access that RR's support
can help you find and Post for help.
They may even be moderated by RR.

You could try a new Newsreader like Free Agent or XNews etc... that have
Killfiles so you never see your Stalkers Posts.
There are other Programs that allow the same thing like Hotpopper and others
that allow you to killfile in your current Newsreader.
When they can't get you to respond they usually look for new Victims.

Maybe someone reading this can give you a more compleate list, I don't use
them.

The thing to watch out for is the ones that scream the loudest that they are
the Victims of Stalking are usually the Stalkers themselves!

Many play the Victim to their Victims when they Troll calling them Stalkers,
Trolls, Spammers etc... when their Victims respond to their Lies!

Kevin!:?)


text:
~Îñ©üßü§~ wrote:

This person that called me a stalker only started calling me a stalker
after I started calling him a stalker for following me around usenet
and posting in groups only because I post in them.

I'm not going to ask you to stop stalking me like I have what seems
like 1000's of times in the past, I'm just hoping that a lawyer is
lurking in one of these groups and decides to step up and help me out.

You're a real pain in the ass, I wish you'd get a life and stob
obsessing over me.


text:
!:?) wrote:

He's already called my ISP trying to get my home address, my ISP
notified me after he called them and told me if I had any problems they
have his home address and phone number, so if the freak every tries
anything my ISP has the information that will be needed to put this guy
away for a long time.


author: Red Herring

text:
Do Not Mind Me wrote:

Just call the Salt Lake City police and let them deal with it.


text:
~Îñ©üßü§~ wrote:

- snip -

I know the feeling.  Welcome to the club.  At least your stalker has
never tried to get you kicked out of college, or attempted to get high
school yearbooks from your high school. Trust me, you're dealing with a
novice.


author: SCRUFF

text:
"Do Not Mind Me" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
is
LoL! Your whole life is a lie. You'll figure that out sooner or later.


author: Night Spirit

text:
"Cah" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...

Don't encourage Perkoff!


author: Waka waka waka

text:
Linda Gore wrote:

...and tell Pee Wee Herman not to sit in front of you in the movies!!!!!
lol you jerkoff!


text:
"Waka waka waka " <"Waka waka waka "@waka.net> wrote in message
news:[email]...

So you're saying you would want Pee Wee Herman to sit behind you at the
movies?
Bring your umbrella!


author: Chuck Olson

subject: Trouble accessing candlepowerforums.com

text:
Is anyone having trouble accessing www.candlepowerforums.com ? I get a page saying
candlepowerforums.com is reserved through Domain Discover, a domain registration service, and
it's a dead end.  It's been like that for at least a full day, now.  Hope this meetingplace for
high power LED devotees is not in trouble.

Chuck


author: Adam Aglionby

subject: Re: Trouble accessing candlepowerforums.com

text:
it has a DNS entry problem,
whole story at:

http://209.67.62.186/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=announcements&Number=385952&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

"Chuck Olson" <[email]> wrote in message
news:p8Crb.155389$HS4.1276977@attbi_s01...
page saying
registration service, and
this meetingplace for


text:
Thanks, Adam.  I kinda wish there were a Yahoo! discussion group for Flashlight Nuts, or a
newsgroup like this but more specifically for FNs.  If you know of other on-line meeting places,
please point me in their direction.

I'm about a month into this hobby although I've been an FN for about 66  years.  Way back then I
saw an ad in the back of a comic book for a penlight that used a "C" cell, and I guess I had my
tonsils out or something, so my parents wanted to get me something nice.  I described what I
wanted, but of course, when it arrived, it was the standard AA penlight, and I've been looking
for that odd-ball light ever since.  I think I'm getting close, now with the candlepower
resource.

Thanks again,

Chuck

"Adam Aglionby" <[email]> wrote in message
news:deQrb.1154$[email]...
http://209.67.62.186/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=announcements&Number=385952&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


subject: Re: Understanding Einstein's simple derivation of the Lorentz Transformation

text:
anyway, for crying out loud, neinstein999,
isn't the opposite charge of electrons & protons,
mostly enough to keep the former form "flying off
tangentially?"

thus:
even though it is Eaaarth's most diaphanous ice,
it'll never be free of it with Greenland feeding so much
into the Arctic Ocean; it is still higher than ever before-measured,
as with Antarctica (I keep on saying,
quoting the Man from NOAA, Swiss office .-)

thus:
it's true that humans are creating a lot of CO2, but
combustion of hydrocarbons also produces tons of H2O, and,
given that the latter's absorptive spectrum is so much larger,
it could be even more important.

so, how would you actually *make* a cropcircle?...  so,
the ufoghasts have achieved a perfectly phoney (non-
agricultural) strawman, with "Doug and Dave's" dragging
of boards through grown crops.  (I have yet
to see any agricultural explanation proffered, but
I don't read every thing, either .-)

thus:
the properties of nucleii & electrons are so well-known
(with the proviso that "free electrons" in plasma are
not really completely free; they are just in extemely "high"
orbitals, perhaps hyperbolic ones amongst nucleii).

in other words, "the mechanism" is known as "electromagnetism,"
at least in the Weber school of electrodynamics,
which had already postulated a "strong force,"
to hold the nucleii together, before there was any data
to speak of in the 19th cce. (http://21stcenturysciencetech.com .-)

plasma physics was revolutionized by the Alfven school
in the lab, but cosmology is still Einsteinmania --
"only gravity acts at cosmic distances," they say.


author: wildrain

subject: Re: Trading Software "VAGGELIS  VOLWTAS"

text: To all members in this forum, PLEASE DON SEND ANY MONEY to this person (VAGGELIS VOLWTAS) from Greece, this guy is a MAFIA he collected money from 1000s around the world and upon receiving the CASH he does not answers his email. He has a very strong way of convenicing people but he is a big SCUM. BE WARE Of him, he got a lot of email address, he keeps changing them frequently, he has spoiled the image if his country by doing so. Am one of his victims, should you have any questions pls write to me and i will be more than happy to assist you.


author: jvp

subject:
Re: DynamicTrader RT 5.0, Elwave 8.0 + all modules, NeoTicker RT
 4.0, Trade

text:
Hi,

Can you give more info about the software, Cyclone and BWT Zones?

Thanks.


text:
Be ware of this person, he is a big mafia, he is a scum. VAGGELIS  VOLWTAS is a big thief, please read my posts recently. stay away from this person

regards,
[email]


author: Bert Hyman

subject: Ground loops from multiple interconnected devices?

text:
My car has multiple "power taps".

If I have my GPS receiver (Garmin eMap) plugged into one, a PC plugged into
another one and the receiver and PC connected by way of their serial ports,
is it likely that I'll create problems due to the inevitable small voltage
differences between the two devices?

I want to leave the eMap on the dash and let a back-seat passenger be
navigator on a cross-country trip.


author: John

subject: Re: Ground loops from multiple interconnected devices?

text:
"Bert Hyman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns91CC7A3C11ABBVeebleFetzer@209.98.98.13...
into
ports,

 Unlikely.  The ground is not wired in cars as it is in houses.  Each power
tap ground connects to a nearby point on the frame of the car, so there's
not much difference in potential, anyway.  For RS-232 levels *not* to work
between devices, the ground reference difference has to be over 2 volts.


author: Bob Gross

text:
First of all, the multiple power taps could possibly have radically
different grounds. However, it is more likely that they each have decent
ground connections to the metal body of the vehicle. If you had one hell of
a lot of current in this scheme, then it would be possible that the "copper"
losses in the hot lead could give you some voltage differences, but the PC
and GPS don't care much about that. I don't think it will give you any
problem. However, if you suspect that you see symptoms, then run a hard wire
from one power tap ground to the other power tap ground. Something like a
#12 AWG would be overkill. Most wiring like this could be #18 AWG and do
fine. Be prepared to take off your extra ground wire if things act up
afterward. I assume that this is a normal negative ground vehicle.

---Bob Gross---

"Bert Hyman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns91CC7A3C11ABBVeebleFetzer@209.98.98.13...
into
ports,


author: Dave Martindale

text:
Bert Hyman <[email]> writes:

Very unlikely.  The various taps likely all have connections to the
car frame, and there isn't likely to be a lot of current flowing through
the frame between taps to create a voltage difference.

In addition, you're talking about a digital signal, which likely has
at least a volt of noise immunity.  You're *really* unlikely to get
a volt of ground voltage difference.

Ground loops are mainly a concern with analog signals.  A few millivolts
of unwanted junk can be visible when added to an analog video signal,
and a few millivolts can be very audible when added to an analog
audio signal, but it won't bother digital RS-232 data.

	Dave


author: Jonas Lonnroth

text:
You probably also have a car radio. Even if there isn't a digital problem
you could have an audio problem.

I have a new Kenwood radio, a sharp laptop and a usb gps "mouse" on the
roof. There are audio filters in the plus leads for the radio and the tap
points for electronics. Now if I connect my Targus 12 - 22.5 V adaptor to to
a 12 V (plus and minus) cable from the wire bundles at the fuse box, I get
heavy adaptor noise in the radio + noise from the laptop screen when the
navigation cursor moves.

But if I use the cig outlet to power the Targus adaptor - no noise. The
disadvantage is that when I take out the car key, power to the laptop is
interrupted, which is not always what I want. Since the plus is filterred, I
think that there could be a ground problem involved.

Just to addd to the confusion.

Regards

Jonas Lonnroth

"Bert Hyman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns91CC7A3C11ABBVeebleFetzer@209.98.98.13...
into
ports,


author: DonH

subject: Re: Nearly Three Quarters Believe Global Warming Data Falsified

text:
"AGW IS A GIANT CON JOB" <FOOLED BY AGW HOAX@HOAXERS> wrote in message
news:[email]...

# People tend to believe what they want to believe; it is called
Retroductive thinking - you decide on a desired Conclusion, then argue back
to Minor and Major Premises, ignoring or suppressing unpleasant facts along
the way.
   This ingenious method is what is used by Traditional Religion. We all
want Eternal Life, hence, dogmatically make Texts Sacred, lest they be found
to be false.
   So, with Anthropogenic Global Warming - we want Secular (this world)
Immortality, hence an Inconvenient Truth is deemed false, not because it is
unTrue, but because it is so terribly Inconvenient.
   How could seven billion humans with massive technology have any impact on
the environment?  No, it's all due to sun spots, La Nina, or Nature in
general.
   Homo Sapiens is too clever to survive more than a few more decades.


author: wieger

subject: need morphological operations on run length encoded images

text:
Does anyone know how to do morphological operations on run length encoded
images?

Wieger


author: DMag

subject: Re: need morphological operations on run length encoded images

text:
Perhaps "Global Lab Image..." can solve that problem.

"wieger" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3da54f81$0$223$[email]...


author: Pierre Soille

text:
wieger wrote:

To my knowledge, the first reference addressing this problem is
proposed for elementary SEs in

@Article{	  young-etal81,
  author	= {I.~Young and R.~Pevereni and P.~Verbeek and P.~Otterloo},
  title		= {A new implementation for the binary and {M}inkowski
		  operators},
  journal	= {Computer Graphics and Image Processing},
  year		= {1981},
  volume	= {17},
  pages		= {189-210}
}

This approach has been later extended to arbitray SEs, see

@Article{	  ji-piper-tang89,
  author	= {L.~Ji and J.~Piper and J.-Y.~Tang},
  title		= {Erosion and dilation of binary images by arbitrary
		  structuring elements using interval coding},
  journal	= {Pattern Recognition Letters},
  year		= {1989},
  volume	= {9},
  pages		= {201-209}
}

Hope it helps,

Pierre Soille

http://ams.egeo.sai.jrc.it/soille


author: Alasdair McAndrew

text:
Since morphological operations require a knowledge of the neighbourhood of
each pixel, you would need some way of obtaining neighbourhoods from the
run-lengh code.  This could certainly be done, but the computational effort
would be equivalent to decoding first, and then applying the operations to
the final image.  So why not simply do that?

cheers,
Alasdair


text:
Hello,

Do you know where I can find those articles in digital form?

Kind regards
Wieger
"Pierre Soille" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
encoded


text:
"Alasdair McAndrew" <[email]> wrote in message
news:Xns92A462C537007AlasdairMcAndrewnotv@203.12.22.18...
effort

I think that it must be possible to do morphological operations on RL
encoded images.
If you can determine the contour points out of the "runs" then the number of
computations will reduce enormously.
You also have to scan relatively small amount of data when using RL encoded
images. When you decode you get much more data that you have to handle.
Getting data from memory and putting the result somewere else is very
timeconsuming.

I know that it is possible
Vision Components in Karlsruhe have a solution
Halcon also has a fast solution

But they will not give me the code ;-)


author: Robert Macy

subject: How to make the HP DeskJet 500 print a 'test page'

text:
Forgot how to print a 'test page'  not the one from MS, but the one
built in that tests all the jets.

Also, anyone out there have a DeskJet 500 Manual?

Operator's and/or Service?


subject: Re: How to make the HP DeskJet 500 print a 'test page'

text:
On Nov 3, 8:21 pm, AZ Nomad <[email]> wrote:

send me the $25 and I will


text:
On Nov 4, 4:21 am, baron <[email]> wrote:
...snip...

Might be interested in seeing the FLATTEST, and most unique, inkjet
target: a layer of plaster of paris. The special ink sets the
particles sprayed and unsprayed particles are sacrificial, to be used
another time.

This printer puts down a thin layer of plaster of paris, sprays that
layer, then new layer of powder is added and sprayed until a 3D
rendering is completed. I've see 6 inch tall items.

Most incredible of all, I've seen this "Printer" make operating gear
sets that are impossible to assemble!  The gears all spin intermeshed,
but it would NOT be possible to assemble such a structure, it just has
to come into existence - operating.

Fascinating, that the 'rinter' has better than 3 mil tolerance and the
inks are colored.

[disclaimer: not associated with this firm, nor gain from discussing
it]

See:
ZCorp color 3D rapid prototyping at Autodesk Imagine
  http://www.zcorp.com

here in the Bay Area it's repped by
 Sales, Northern California, and Nevada
Peak Solutions LLC
900 Cherry Av, Suite 300
San Bruno, CA  94066
Phone  415-846-7839
  http://www.peak-solutions-llc.com


author: Baron

text:
Robert Macy wrote:

Wow !  Someone else who still has & uses a Deskjet 500.  I've had mine
from new just as they came out.  Must be getting on for 25 years or so
now.


text:
On Nov 2, 11:00 am, [email] wrote:

Thank you.  I found that POWER ON while holding down the FONT button
is supposed to print a test page.

Also, found Coniguration Switch Settings and the Printer Control
Commands, the escape sequences.

My manual is in storage.  Would like to get a copy of that.


text:
On Nov 2, 11:15 am, Meat Plow <[email]> wrote:

I think that prints the Microsoft page, not the one that exercises all
the printer's functions.


text:
On Nov 2, 12:59 pm, Baron <[email]> wrote:

Yes!  Bought it new, also.  Still has the highest contrast ratio for
me.

I did run across somebody [in TX?] that refurbishes them for sale, but
they wanted more than $260 at a time when most printers are going for
$40, didn't make sense to get another one.  Instead, I just waited.

As a result of waiting, I've been given an HP LaserJet 5 and an Epson
C60 [color printer], so still don't need another yet.


text:
On Nov 2, 1:50 pm, Baron <[email]> wrote:

Thanks for the 'heads up'

I have not been happy with it.  Cartridge dries out way too fast.
Have to use everyday, or waste ink to recharge,  Wait, using everyday
wastes ink, too.  So no way to gain.  Plus, the cartridges [the ones
easy to get, cost $30 to $50!!!]  Isn't that the price of a desk top
printer?

So,I'm back to "that's a niceprinter, but can't use it. "

What is the best priced, high contrast printer out there?  Of course
long lived.


text:
On Nov 3, 7:59 am, Jeff Liebermann <[email]> wrote:

Thanks for the recommendation.


text:
On Nov 3, 1:48 pm, Baron <[email]> wrote:

Thanks for that recommendation.

Wow, Korea really knows how to make products.  That makes 3 Samsung
products [printer, phone, and washing machine] and 1 Genesis Coupe
[auto] I'd like to buy.  As soon as I have the money.  But, others
must be buying, so K's economy ought to be doing well, eh?


author: AZ Nomad

text:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:03:30 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy <[email]> wrote:

perhaps a museum?

Why not spend the $25 and get something made in this century?
Limited to printers supported by windows 3.1?


author: William Sommerwerck

text:
I used to have one of these (it was later donated to Microsoft's test lab),
but I don't remember. It's usually something like holding down the On Line
or Form Feed button while turning on the power. It can't hurt to experiment;
you're not going to waste any supplies if it doesn't work.


text:
On Nov 2, 10:13 am, "William Sommerwerck" <[email]>
wrote:

THANK YOU!

It was indeed hold down the FF button and cycle the power.

Found a 'dead' jet, but the constant printing on page 3 [landscape
mode], must have awakened it.


author: [redacted]

text:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:03:30 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
<[email]> wrote:

Look here for the DeskJet 500 info:
http://search.hp.com/query.html?charset=iso-8859-1&lk=1&la=en&nh=10&st=1&rf=0&qs=&hpvc=sitewide&uf=1&qr=1&qt=deskjet+500&cqt=deskje+500&sp=1

John


author: baron

text:
Robert Macy Inscribed thus:

A rather unique way of creating prototypes.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.


author: David Nebenzahl

text:
On 11/2/2009 12:59 PM Baron spake thus:

So can you tell me how your printer compares to mine, a DeskJet 932C? I
have the sneaking suspicion that mine is not as good, but really have no
idea.


text:
Robert Macy wrote:

Agreed !  Very good print quality.  Pity the ink carts are not available
anymore.  I've been refilling mine for several years now.

Quite !  I wouldn't pay more than $10 or $15 for one, particularly when
they get thrown out by firms clearing the IT stock room.

Watch the Epson !  The ink dries very rapidly in the print heads and
they are part of the printer and not the cartridge.  I've seen new
demonstration machines dumped because the ink has dried in the print
heads.


author: Jeff Liebermann

text:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:26:44 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
<[email]> wrote:

I retired my HP LaserJet 5m several months ago.  It's basically a
LaserJet 4 Plus in a nicer box and faster raster engine.  600 dpi is
kinda crude as most anything you buy these days will do 1200 dpi.  My
main complaint is that the power save feature didn't really turn off
the printer.  It sucked power all the time.  Still, it was cheap,
reliable, fairly easy to maintain, but slow, crude, a power hog, and a
bad habit of paper jamming at the back rollers.  I replaced it with an
HP Laserjet 2200dtn (double sided, 2 trays, network card, 1200dpi) and
am living happily ever after.

I also had an Epson Stylus C60 for a few days.  It leaked ink all over
the place, no matter what I did to prevent it.  Brand new, with
supplied ink carts.  I later ran into the same problem with a
customers C60.  I gave up.  It's not a common problem, but I seem to
find it all too often.
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/forums/laser/13409>


text:
Robert Macy wrote:

Thats about the only way to get good service life out of it.

Ouch !  C60 carts can be had very cheaply in the UK along with a chip
reseting tool.

Apart from the DJ500 my other two printers are both Samsung Laser.  One
is the ML1440 and the other is a MCX4200 multifunction printer copier.
All three are fully supported by Linux.


text:
David Nebenzahl wrote:

Its practically the same printer ! But the 500 only has a single black
(colour, if you change the ink) cartridge.  The 932C I think has USB as
well as parallel port inputs. As far as print quality is concerned
yours should be better having 600 dpi as against 300 dpi for the DJ500
plus colour.  The DJ500C could do colour but you had to change
cartridges.  I belive it was the DJ520 that had both black and colour
cartridges in the same carriage.
The DJ500 also had an RS232 serial port as well.  Very handy when
attached to a "Netware PS" !


author: PeterD

text:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:25:30 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <[email]>
wrote:

Heck, I've got you beat: I still use an Apple Laserwriter II (HP LJ
II) sometimes. The printer is the only straight path printer and will
print on 80 lb card stock for bin lables! Can't do that with my high
speed laser printers, so the Apple still has a job.


text:
On 11/3/2009 1:58 PM Baron spake thus:

Yes, the 932C has USB, which was how I was using it. Didn't know it was
that good; I got it because it was about the cheapest thing available at
the time (ca. 2000).


text:
Stop, you're making me cry. I had an LJ II, then a III, both with PostScript
cartridges. I'm still using the 4M I bought over 15 years ago.


text:
PeterD wrote:

Wasn't that made by HP for Apple ?
The only straight paper path ink jet that I know of was the HP DJ400,
DJ420.  That would do 80lb card stock.


author: Bob Larter

text:
PeterD wrote:

That's venerable Canon SX engine, which is built like a tank & should
last forever if you look after it. They're nice machines to work on too,
unlike many of the newer types. I got rid of my own one (built from
scrapped machines) when I moved from a big place to a small place. I now
run an HP 4M+ with PostScript, which is nearly as solid.


text:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:56:17 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
<[email]> wrote:

About 3 years ago, I discovered that only a few of my customers were
still running HP LJII and LJIII printers.  So, I cleaned up the few I
had in storage and tried to sell them.  No takers.  So, I tried to
give them away.  No takers.  So, I recycled the mess, keeping only the
repair parts collection and toner carts.  I did the same with HP LJ4
and LJ5 printers about 6 months ago.  The office and storage space was
costing me more than the printers were worth.  I even left them by the
roadway with a "free" sign, and found that someone had added a extra
Apple LW2 printer to the pile.

Most of my customers are currently using HP LJ4000/4100 or 4200/4300
series printers.  They have their own collection of problems, but are
much faster and more economical to operate (16,000 pages per toner
cart on the 4300).  The HP LJ4200 will do 16 to 53 lb paper, so 80 lb
won't work.  Speed, smaller footprint, and not having to listen to the
fan cycling all day are the main advantages.  Multiple trays, double
sided printing, ethernet, and web admin are other benefits.

For the home, I like the HP LJ2200dtn or LJ2000dn printer.
<http://reviews.cnet.com/laser-printers/hp-laserjet-2200dtn/4505-3159_7-5086439.html>
Available used for about $220 with all options or $100 stripped.


text:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:08:26 +0000, Baron
<[email]> wrote:

No.  The Apple LaserWriter II NT/NTX was made by Canon for Apple.  The
major SX series mechanical parts are identical to the HP LJII.  The DC
contoller board is the same.  However, the plastic case, status
lights, button, i/o, and image processor board (controller) are all
very different.
<http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/SX-Catalog/SX-AppLW-IINT.html>

Any and all inkjet plotters have a straight paper path.  If you want
to print on cardboard, an inkjet plotter is the way to do it. However,
they tend to be more expensive than an ordinary inkjet printer.

Most (not all) inkjet printers that claim to print on photo grade
paper, will have a fairly straight paper path.  It's usually done by
removing a panel in the rear of the printer.  They need a staight
through path because thick photo paper just hates to be curled around
a roller.  The clay coated surface will sometimes crack on really
thick and glossy photo paper.

Drivel:  Here's a person that prints on balsa wood with an inkjet:
<http://www.parmodels.com/Printed%20Balsa/Printed_Balsa.htm>
and aluminum sheet:
<http://marytaylorart.com/FAQ/inkAID.htm>


text:
Baron wrote:

No, Canon. HP, Apple & Brother all used the Canon SX engine for 'their'
printers. (Canon's own model numbers using that engine were the LBP8II &
III.)


text:
Anyone who wouldn't take a working 4M for free is nuts. You'd be getting a
high-quality PostScript printer for the cost of a new cartridge.

The 4M is a great printer. I recently printed out a discount coupon with
extremely small fonts (they had to be around 2pt) and the quality was
amazing.

They go for very little on eBay. I doubt you could find a new printer that
good, for that price. The only problem is that not nearly as fast as
"modern" printer.


text:
Jeff Liebermann Inscribed thus:

Ah, thats why !

It never occurred to me to print on anything other than paper or card
stock.
Thanks for the interesting links. :-)


text:
Bob Larter Inscribed thus:

Thanks.  I hadn't realised that was the case.


text:
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Indeed. And cartridges are still readily available for reasonable prices.

<nods> The variable dot size works really well.

Oh, they still hold up pretty well, & they won't fall to pieces after a
few years the way that modern units will.


author: jonathan

subject: Fossilized Sponges turn into Hematite.

text:
First pyrite, then limonite and finally weathering into
hematite.   And spicules would  end up being coated
by a shiny black film. Just found this out, it's late so more later
if this has any legs.

Jonathan

s


subject: Re: Fossilized Sponges turn into Hematite.

text:
"jonathan" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

what? Where did you read this?


text:
"R.Schenck" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...

The Fauna

Long after these creatures were buried, iron sulfide filled their cavities,
duplicating
fine details in all their parts. After the Cretaceous seas withdrew, weathering
processes
acted on the pyrite, converting it to limonite, and ultimately hematite.
http://www.fossilnews.com/1998/rufesnow2.html

MECHANISMS OF FOSSILIZATION OF THE SOFT-BODIED AND
LIGHTLY ARMORED FAUNAS OF THE BURGESS SHALE AND OF SOME
OTHER CLASSICAL LOCALITIES

page 10
pyrite commonly forms coatings on
some fossils (Conway Morris, 1985, 1986); pyrite often replaces sponge spicules and
dermal layers (Walcott, 1920), partially replaces hard parts of some echinoderms
(Conway Morris, 1986) and of some trilobites (Whittington, 1977; Conway Morris,
1986), and in some cases replaces whole trilobites (N. J. Butterfield, personal
commu-nication,
It is also significant for the diagenesis of silicates that although in some cases
sponge spicules retained their siliceous composition (Conway Morris, 1990), "sponge
spicules and their dermal layers are usually replaced by pyrite or coated with a thin
black film (Walcott 1920, p. 265)."

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/030/1M130859833EFF0454P2959M2M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/030/1M130846577EFF0454P2933M2M1.HTML

page 24
The conditions for Burgess Shale-type preservation of soft-bodied and lightly
armored fauna can be clarified by comparison with the preservation of animal
morphology by the replacement of soft tissues with pyrite, herein referred to as the
Hunsruï¿½ ck Slate-type of fossilization. Pyritization of animal remains occurs by a
two-step
process: first, oxidation of organic matter by sulfate-reducing bacteria,

SO2-  +  2CH2O > HS-  +  HCO3-   +  H2CO3 (6)

and, second, precipitation of the produced sulfide ions by reaction with
dissolved Fe 2+ ions,

2HS- +  Fe 2+  =   FeS2

page 27
A combination of two factors is critical to soft-tissue preservation, rapid burial,
and sediment
chemistry. Carcasses must be buried rapidly to avoid breakdown by benthic scavengers
under
oxic conditions. The surrounding sediment must contain (1) low concentrations of
available
organic matter (hence pyrite formation is organic matter-limited, and residual
dissolved iron
and sulfate can migrate to the decay site) and (2) unusually high concentration of
iron that is
reactive toward dissolved sulfide, permitting rapid and efficient pyritization of the
soft tissue
(Briggs and others, 1996, p. 657-658).
http://www.geology.yale.edu/~ajs/2001/Oct/qn0801000683.PDF

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXIII (2002)

Introduction: Terrestrial banded iron formations
(BIF) preserve some of the fragile remnants of the earliest
life on Earth. Hematitic deposits are present on
the martian surface [1] so BIFs may be analogs for
identifying both conditions of hematite precipitation
and evidence of primitive biologic activity in martian
rocks. siderite
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1357.pdf

Could bacteria have formed the Precambrian
banded iron formations?
page 2

This work is the first to show quantitatively that direct microbial
Fe 21 oxidation had the potential to generate the bulk, if not all, of the
ferric iron in BIFs. This work, however, does not even consider the
passive roles that other bacteria may have played, such as biologically
induced biomineralization, whereby bacterial surfaces would have sim-ply
served as nucleation sites for iron mineralization (Konhauser and
Ferris, 1996; Warren and Ferris, 1998; Konhauser, 1998). Clearly, microorganisms
had the means to be important agents in iron deposition,
and their effect must now be considered as a demonstrable mechanism
for BIF development in the Precambrian.
http://faculty.eas.ualberta.ca/konhauser/Geology2002.pdf


text:
"jonathan" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...
snip
ok, i thought you were saying that the spicules -became- pyrite, not
that they become coated with it.

This is the most important part for your ideas of course. Very
interesting.

snip

And of course, the Martian surface is thought to have lots of sulfur
compounds.  So I would think, prelimiarily at least, that any
sulfur-reducing bacteria would have a ready energy source available?
Or is the sulfur in an already reduced form?  Is this know?

But this is not all pyrite, correct? They are talking about the
specific context of fossilization. And pyrite hasn't been found on
mars right? Or did I miss that announcement?

snip other intersting articles


text:
"R.Schenck" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
and
burial,
scavengers

Pyrite is ferrous sulfide, and both iron and sulfur seem to
be there in abundance in various forms.
One of the first things Nasa noted about the bounce rock
is that is has unusually shiny surfaces. Not sure what they
mean by that, they've been rather limited in their
releases lately. But the point is trying to show that the hematite
is consistent with fossilized marine life.

Also that the conditions are suitable for pyrite formation, in that it
would need low ozygen and low organic environments
to take place.

I suspect when Opportunity makes it to the large crater many
more answers will follow, that is, if Nasa is willing to
release any real data.

Jonathan

s

the


author: Bob Rehak Ext. 3-9437, AIS Central Services - Swen Parson 146

subject: Re: Space research, teflon, etc, etc,....

text:
I think it's worth noting that some great technology has been spawned
by space research; however, I would have to say that the great tech-
nological progress we (earthlings) have made in this last century has
been driven primarily by military necessity (sad but true).  Our
primative desires to acheive 'the good life' at the expense of others
has been with us since the beginning of time.  Thus nations have
wasted millions on armies to be able to either defend themselves or
to assert their will over others or subjugate them.  The best
trained and equipped army usually wins.  Ous best scientific and
engineering minds are wasted on developing ways to more effectively
kill other people.  It's sad that communications technology is driven
by a need to keep secrets, aircraft technology on fighters and
bombers, satellite technology and remote sensing on a need to 'keep
an eye' on the other guy, medical technology on the need to 'put
the pieces back together again' after a war and make our children
look human again.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe in having a strong defense.  I
beleive that necessity is the mother of invention.  I just think
it's sad that in today's day and age, governments drive necessity
which in turn tends to be something of a military nature.  Thomas
Edison, Henry Ford, and the Wright brothers suffered alone for
many years trying to perfect their inventions.  Maybe we should
be finding modern day inventors like these and start funding their
research.  Space research doesn't necessarily have to be done by
NASA.  Being a part of the government, NASA is burdened by the
usual government mismanagement, waste, meddling, restriction of
scientific thought, and a 'just get the job done attitude'.  The
Challenger is a good example of my last comment.

There has to be a better way to promote scientific research.


author: Gary Coffman

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Bob Rehak Ext. 3-9437, AIS Central Services  -  Swen Parson 146) writes:

Well if there is, and I doubt it, any government funding will make
it just as inefficient as the current system. Control always follows
the money. The same waste, mismanagement, meddling, and restrictions
on scientific thought would inevitably flow with the money. Backyard
tinkerers are unlikely to deliver the complex transportation systems
we all want. Like it or not, we are stuck with the government doing
a job that's too big for anyone else. All we can hope to do is pressure
the government to do the best possible job they can.

Gary


author: Nick Szabo

text:
[two excellent articles on innovation, got attributions mixed up sorry]

There may be some cobwebs of myth here.  Good ol' Tom Edison, while
creating the mystique of the individual inventor, actually headed a
lab full of engineers out of which came some of the first records,
moving pictures, etc.  Henry Ford also had a reasonably well staffed
and funded operation.  The Wright Bros. were a small (two people plus
part time help) and experienced team, similar to the garage-level
airplane experimentalists of today.  Note that the Wright Bros. invented
the first wind tunnel before inventing the first airplane.  With the wind
tunnel they found several big flaws in Lilienthal's aerodynamics tables.
Solving these was a big part of getting the first Wright Flyer in the air.

Some of the garage techniques made their way into the OSC/Hercules
Pegasus project -- especially the design of the new wing -- one of the
reasons the R&D costs for Pegasus were so incredibly low by government
contractor standards.  The techniques of today's experimental airplane
enthusiasts hold real promise for bringing down the cost of aerospace
R&D.

Hard to find them, even more difficult to fund them without giving in
to the temptation to dictate design.  The Army/Huntsville and
Army/JPL relationship of the 50's, which led to the first U.S. satellite
Explorer I and the discovery of the Van Allen belts, and the DARPA/private
industry relationships of today, strike me as good models of how government
can fund innovation without thumb-fingered interference and mis-scaling
of technology.  Government-dictated projects like the Shuttle, the fission
and fusion power programs, Space Station Freedom, etc. stand as testimonials
of how government can spend $tens of billions of dollars on good technology
and still end up having little or no positive impact on our economy --
negative impact when you realize citizens and industry were taxed for these
projects out of funds that could have otherwise gone to private R&D.

It _isn't_ necessarily being done by NASA.  Most of the innovations
in space technology over the last decade have come from outside
NASA.

This has not always been the case: see the Army and DARPA examples cited
above.  I believe it is possible for government to fund innovation
wisely.  But we really have to look at what works and what doesn't, and
have the political will to throw the things that don't work.

Pegasus is a shining counterexample.  It is exactly the techniques
of "backyard tinkerers" like Bert Rhutan and the Wright Bros. we need
to revitalize our aerospace R&D.

This, in a nutshell, is the myth I am fighting -- that space
technology has to be big, therefore it has to be done by big
organizations.  As long as we believe this fallacy, space technology is
going to be expensive and a long time in coming.


author: Peter Webb

subject: Re: Finite Relativism & Special Relativity Disproof

text:
Just to confirm.

That thought experiment involving the cannons.

Do you understand and agree with my explanation of what an observer would
"see"?

Do you now agree there is no paradox?


author: Phil Bouchard

text:
Peter Webb wrote:

What you say contradicts was Albert Einstein said, and what I say
contradicts both of you and hence are paradoxical.


text:
"Phil Bouchard" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Well, Einstein isn't here today, so his opinion on your thought experiment
cannot be directly determined.

If you think there is a different outcome to the thought experiment than the
one I provided, you should state how your outcome is different. Maybe this
results in some kind of "paradox", but so far nobody has described anything
the least bit paradoxical about my description of what would be observed.

So, how does FR predict a different outcome for the cannonball thought
experiment than the one I provided?


author: doug

text:
Phil Bouchard wrote:

You have no reading ability. You are lying about what relativity
says to try to make yourself not look so stupid.


author: quattrocchi

subject: Asking for less than perfect IOL in Cataract Surgery

text:
When I go in for my cataract pre-surgery sessions in about 6 weeks, is it really
_practical_ to have a 20/20 iol put in. I wonder about asking them to aim for a
light myopic lens.

My wife recently had a similar cataract op and when they asked just prior to
surgery what sort of vision she wanted she (naturally enough) said, 'why perfect
of course'.

So now she realises that the intraocular lens they inserted has less
accommodation than a natural lens. Vision up to 4ft is blurry. Hence she
requires reading glasses for most daily tasks - working, cooking, reading,
sewing, etc etc.

It occurred to me that a mild myopic ioc might be more useful, with accurate
close vision up to say 10ft, because for those daily tasks one could operate
well without glasses, then for distance vision, driving, etc, pop on the specs.

Seems that this second option would require less occasion for wearing glasses.
Then as I age the focal length might extend further, mightn't it?.

If I'm right, and a mild myopic iol is quite useful if it would give acuity up
to 10-20ft, what diopter would do this?

Am I wildly off the mark here, or is it a reasonable theory?

Brian

script with the L cataract which is uncorrectable with glasses:
		R			L [cataract eye]
sp	    -4.00                     -4.50
cyl	    -3.00                     -3.25
axis        15                        155
add	    +3.00                     +1.25 (progressives)
add	    +2.50                     +0.75 (bifocal)


subject: Re: Asking for less than perfect IOL in Cataract Surgery

text:
Jan

determine a
character or behavior by knowing the persons ametropia, having such a
lack
in knowledge about just these different kinds of ametropia in human
eyes.

Maybe life would be easier for you if i say clearly that i dont measure
the refraction of any persons eyes and claim no expertise at all in
this area, and have never claimed to measure the refraction of a pesons
eye or claimed to have any expertise in this area.

I rely on experts like yourself to know what the measurements are.

My expertise is in using these third party prescriptions.

Meanwhile it is interesting to know more about the eye but its not
necessary for me.

Andrew


text:
I can see that my wording created confusion.

Its true that "No myopia" can be either  plano with myopic astigmatism
or mixed astigmatic.   I was considering mixed astigmatic being the
least blurry distant result.

For a particular case of an active guy who was intolerant to contacts,
loved walking in the rain,  kissing, wrestling and swimming, +1.5/-3.00
might provide the best solution for him.

Andrew


text:
Jan wrote:

and in
the other direction myopic (-1.50) with again still an astigmatism of
3.00
diopters

long as
the same astigmatic error

But in practice depth of field always decreases the mixed astigmatism
when the pupil is smaller than it can any other value of + or - with
that same value of astigmatism.


text:
Jan

Consider these options.

S+.25=C-3.00

S+1.5=C-3.00

On a sunny day the eye will see about .75D better due to depth of
field.

so we get.

S0=C-2.25

S+.75=C-.75

Andrew


text:
Thanks for all the discussion.

In article <1110871230.d211a23f4224325bd3a4c1fcc45b8aac@teranews>,
   quattrocchi <[email]> wrote:

I'm the original poster, and yesterday I went in for the pre-surgery prep. This
is at a public hospital here in Auckland New Zealand where my op will be on the
national health, no charge to me. Which is nice.

Anyhow, I was very pleased to hear from the surgeon when I posed the above
queston, that she favours leaving some residual myopia, aiming for approximately
-0.75 to -1.25.

I'll be able to either 1) correct each eye with glasses, or 2) under-correct the
non-cateract eye to leave a similar amount of myopia, -1 ish, to match the new
IOL and walk around with mild myopia stereo-vision for close work/reading, and
use distance glasses for driving etc.

My great amount of myopia is, as some of you have noticed, not correctable with
this procedure.

I was impressed with the equipment they had there at this creakingly old public
health eye clinic: some fancy machine for recording my existing natural lens,
eyeball shape and cornea shape with a few passes of some red light thingee.

My cadillac surgery is scheduled for a date in 6 weeks time.

Brian


text:
Philip D Izaac wrote:
If its

+1.50/-3.00 is not a hyperopic prescription.  Its just a conventional
way of writing the spherical equivalent of zero for the mixed
astigmatism. There is no spherical hyperopic error.

If you disagree take it up with Mike he explained all of this to me
earlier in the thread.


text:
<Jan> wrote:
opposite
each
the
point
LINES
said
placed
type of
astigmatism
ametropia
everything is

Jan

We seem to agree that best possible correction for this case results in
mixed astigmatism of +/-1.6125

Andrew


text:
<Jan> wrote:
direction
myopia
one
eye.

Jan

I am not sure how you arrive at your answer or what part of my answer
is incorrect.  I clearly indicated a mixed astigmatic eye scenario for
an eye with no myopia.

For a presumed case of regular astigmatism dont we expect to have equal
amounts of astigmatism either side of the retina?

Ie 3.25/2 = +/-1.625D?

Can you explain your answer please?

Thanks

Andrew


text:
<Jan> wrote:
myopic/hypermetropic
answer
for
equal
lack
myopic and

Jan

I agree I am not an expert on prescriptions.  I just have a rather
simple understanding.

If I am wrong it would be nice to know why that is so.

Here is the original prescription:

                R                       L [cataract eye]
sp          -4.00                     -4.50
cyl         -3.00                     -3.25
axis        15                        155
add         +3.00                     +1.25 (progressives)
add         +2.50                     +0.75 (bifocal)

So we agreed he is has myopia of -4.5 in one direction  and -7.75 in
the other

To make this easier for me to understand lets say he had a series of
operations to get the best possible refraction while remaining
astigmatic.

1st operation removes 4.5D of sphere

-4.5 -7.75  (prior to an operation)

0.00 -3.25  (after first operation)

2nd operation removes 1.5D of sphere

+1.5 -1.75

Final operation to produce best possible refraction for mixed
astigmatic eye using a none toric IOL removes one eight of D of sphere.
(0.125D)

+1.6125 -1.6125

So in this scenario the mixed astigmatic eye has equal but opposite
amounts of blurr either side of the retina but at 90 degrees to each
other.

To get +1.75 - 1.5 reguires an **overshoot** of best possible outcome
(for a none toric IOL) by one eighth of a diopter.

If I am wrong where have i made a mistake?

Can somebody help out here please?

Thanks

Andrew


text:
Oops!

I said

amounts of blurr either side of the retina but at 90 degrees to each
other.

The cylinder that creates the astigmatism is in only one plane of
course.  So that the maximum hypermetropic blurr of 1.6125 is in the
same line of the maximum minus blurr of -1.6125D with a central point
being the retina.

Correct?

Andrew


text:
quattrocchi wrote:
is it really
aim for a

So you are just getting the one eye done?

At the moment in your left eye you are -7.75 myopic in one direction
and -4.50 in another direction 90 degrees to that.

Thats a great deal of minus in either direction.

**if** it were possible to accurately fit an IOL to give you no myopia
but leave you with the astigmatism, then you would be astigmatic in one
direction of -1.5D and astigmatic in tother 90 degrees from that at
+1.5.

Because your optical error would then be only 1.5D either side of the
retina that might actually give you vastly superior vision than you
currently have in your very similar right eye uncorrected - especially
in bright conditions.  Possibly in bright conditions you could drive
and be able to see 20/40 or better without correction.

Hopefully can get a result that is close to no myopia and then report
back how well you can see with the remaining astigmatism.

Andrew


text:
quattrocchi wrote:
is it really
aim for a
prior to
'why perfect
she
reading,
accurate
operate
the specs.
glasses.
acuity up

Unless the surgeon is planning on implanting an astigmatic IOL,
it will be a moot point with all the astigmatism you have.
You wont need to worry about 20/20 uncorrected vision @ any distance
because the astigmatic component that you have will prevent that.
Thus even if the surgeon neutralized all or part of your myopic error
the astigmatism remaining will still require you to wear an spectacle
correction.

frank


author: RM

text:
You are right on target here!  I oftentimes ask for my patients to end up
with a -0.50 spherical final refractive error after cataract surgery.  Being
mildly myopic is a good thing when you are older.  As you say, less
dependence on readers while still maintaining reasonable distance vision.

You could even propose to have 1 eye set perfectly for distance (plano) and
the other set slightly for near (-1.00 would be good).  This is called
monovision.  It can be difficult to adjust to at first but works quite well
in most cases.

I think your biggest problem will be the amount of astigmatism you presently
have.  You posted that you have a cylinder correction of -3.00 in one eye
and -3.25 in the other.  If this astigmatism is due to the toric shape of
your cornea (rather than lens tilt which is also possible) then standard
cataract surgery will likely leave you with about the same amount of
astigmatism even after the surgery.  Thus your distance AND near vision will
be blurred regardless.  Sometimes you can request that the surgeon perform
limbal relaxing incisions on your cornea during the cataract operation in an
attempt to remove/minimize that astigmatism.  I would talk to your surgeon
about doing that or it really won't matter whether you are set perfect for
distance or slightly nearsighted after the surgery-- the astigmatism will
still make everything blurry and require that you use glasses full-time.

Talk to your surgeon about trying to set the final end point of your
refraction after surgery.  Talk to him about possible solutions to your
astigmatism.  Be aware that you can't exactly pick a final refractive end
point after cataract surgery-- it's impossible to be precise.  Cataract
surgery IS NOT refractive surgery.


author: Dan Abel

text:
In article <1110871230.d211a23f4224325bd3a4c1fcc45b8aac@teranews>,
quattrocchi <[email]> wrote:

perfect

My doctor was very good about working with me to determine what was best,
before I had my first cataract surgery.  However, the concepts are a
little complicated for a lay person, and it took time for me to
understand.  There's no concept of "perfect" vision after cataract
surgery.

There is *NO* accommodation with a normal IOL.  The doctor can give you
close vision or far vision, but you don't get both.

It's a reasonable theory for many people.  My doctor explicitly gave me
this choice.  I chose far vision, since I was already used to putting on
reading glasses to see up close (I wore contacts for distance, and reading
glasses over them for close).  My doctor thought that was the best choice,
as I'm reasonably active.  Close vision is more appropriate for those who
are wheelchair bound and don't get out much.  However, as drfrank has
already posted, your astigmatism is quite severe, and unless you are
willing to put up with poor vision, you will continue to need glasses at
any distance.


text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

Yes Andrew, only to you.

A: S+0.00=C-3.00 means in one direction the eye is emmetropic (plano or 0)
and in the other direction myopic(-3.00) with an astigmatism of 3.00
diopters.
B: S-0.25=C-3.00 means in one  direction the eye is myopic (-0.25) and in
the other direction myopic(-3.25) still with an astigmatism of 3.00
diopters.
C: +0.25=C-3.00 means in one direction the eye is hypermetropic (+0.25) and
in the other direction myopic(-2.75) still with an astigmatism of 3.00
diopters.

S+1.50=C-3.00 means in one direction the eye is  hyperopic (+1.50) and in
the other direction myopic (-1.50) with again still an astigmatism of 3.00
diopters

Theoreticaly the vision acuity for the distance stays the same as long as
the same astigmatic error is in between, or of,  the myopic-emmetropic and
emmetropic-hypermetropic type.
Saying this you can figure out by yourself  your solution is not the best
solustion for someone who is not able to accommodate.

For me it is still astonishing to see Andrew, who says he can determine a
character or behavior by knowing the persons ametropia, having such a lack
in knowledge about just these different kinds of ametropia in human eyes.


text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...
Theoreticaly the vision acuity for the distance stays the same as long as
the same astigmatic error is in between, or of,  the myopic-emmetropic and
emmetropic-hypermetropic type.
Saying this you can figure out by yourself  your solution is not the best
solustion for someone who is not able to accommodate.

Andrew answers with:

My answer on Andrews:
You are changing the subject, a charlatanic behavior to my opinion.
But Andrew, it still has no influence on what I wrote before and you still
show your lack of very basic optical knowledge in human eyes.

For me it is still astonishing to see Andrew, who says he can determine a
character or behavior by knowing the persons ametropia, having such a lack
in knowledge about just these different kinds of ametropia in human eyes.


text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

No Andrew, we still have S+0.25=C-3.00 and S+1.5=C-3.00
However the blur on the retina on a sunny day is lesser than it is under a
more darker circumstance and in your two examples the combined amount off
blur is the same when compared in the same light conditions.

All your answers keep showing your lack knowledge in this field.

For me it is still astonishing to see Andrew, who says he can determine a
character or behavior by knowing the persons ametropia, having such a lack
in knowledge about just these different kinds of ametropia in human eyes.


author: Philip D Izaac

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

0.00/-3.00 has no spherical hyperopic error, ie. plano in one direction
and -3.00 in the other.
Give this correction to the patient and that would leave him hyperopic by
1.50 dipoter. Therefore he needs the hyperopic component of 1.5 added to the
above Rx to correct him fully. That makes him a hyperope with astigmatism.
Without the Rx, the circle of least confusion is on the retina, part of the
image will focus behind the retina (The hyperopic part) the other will be in
front of the retina (the myopic part) .

Roland Izaac
M.Sc. in clinical optometry


author: [redacted]

text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

We don't


author: Mike Tyner

text:
<[email]> wrote

The plus component is wasted. It focuses nothing.

The minus component helps uncorrected near vision.

In real life, pl-325 or +050-325 is probably more useful than +162-325.

And easier to get used to when they've worn minus for so many years.

-MT


text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

For me it is astonishing to see Andrew, who says he can determine a
character or behavior by knowing the persons ametropia, having such a lack
in knowledge about ametropia in human eyes.
I already explained your mixed astigmatic eye is in one direction myopic and
not ''non myopic''
If you don not know what you are talking about then please leave.


text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

No.

First of all the blur is ON the retina, the theoretical sharp focus LINES
(not points) are situated in front and behind the retina and as you said
before at a 90 degree angle to each other (in your example)
The blur on the retina is an out of focus mix of the two different placed
focus lines.

As a said before:
In earlier posting by you, you suggest you can point out  different type of
personalities just by knowing (measuring?) the type of ametropia.
If you do not understand right now what myopia, hypermetropia or astigmatism
stands for, how did you before?

My advise Andrew, keep your mouth shut on eye(care) subjects like ametropia
or buy some books on the subject and come back later as soon everything is
clear to you.


text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Ever Wonder why a non professional should not give advice? Its because wrong
information may be taken seriously.
problem 1) "...Accurately fit an IOL to give you no myopia..."????? If its
accurate, why gain hyperopia?

Problem 2) The actual Rx to for the above would be +1.50/-3.00
If the axis is 180 you may get 20/40 without correction, if the axis is 90,
it would probably be 20/200 or a bit better on a snelen chart.


text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Wow a different Rx, how will this change the personality?

Roland Izaac


text:
<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

Resulting in a astigmatic amount of  3.25 dpt.

Wrong Andrew, the result is a mixed astigmatic myopic/hypermetropic eye.
In one direction 1.50 dpt myopic and in the other direction 1.75
hypermetropic.
The amount of astigmatism still being   3.25 dpt.


author: The Real Bev

text:
[email] wrote:

How good are astigmatic IOLs now?


text:
"Philip D Izaac" <[email]> wrote

I think you meant "myopic" in terms of equivalent sphere..

My feeling is that the hyperopic component in +150-300 serves no purpose.

Pl-300 is more functional.

-MT


author: Andrew Judd via MedKB.com

text:
Thats a good point Mike.

I was wondering if such a mixed equally astigmaticly corrected eye might
see quite well in bright distance viewing conditions - to the point that no
glasses were needed for many purposes - eg swimming or water sports etc.
That might suit some people possibly.

I guess i have been more narrowly focused on the theoretical considerations.

On the subject of the theoretical, is it not true that in this theoretical
mixed astigmatic eye that the most hyperopically visible blurred *point* is
180 degrees to the most myopicly blurred *point*, althought there are many
other lines of blurr either side of these points?

Thanks

Andrew


text:
sorry i meant

"between these two points" there are many lines of 'blurr'


text:
"Andrew Judd via MedKB.com" <[email]> wrote

"Best possible correction" has to be defined subjectively.

+162-325 is described as a "spherical equivalent of zero," and it perhaps
_is_ "best" if far vision is most important.

With astigmatic error, points blur into lines. If your prescription is
pl-325x180, and you have no accommodation, a point at 14 cm will blur into a
horizontal line, and a point at 20 feet will blur into a vertical line.

-MT


text:
Mike Tyner wrote

Thanks Mike.  Why do you write +1.6125 as +162-325?  I saw you do that last
post but was not sure if it were a typo.

True. But that is different to the case of looking at only one point.

For the theoretical case of a mixed astigmatic only eye, and for a viewed
point object is it not true that there is one single point of maximum minus
refraction away from the fovea, and one single point of maximum hypertropic
refraction away from the fovea, both being on the same axis and with all
other lines of refraction meeting a line drawn between these two maximum
points?

Andrew


text:
Mike Tyner wrote

pl-325x180, and you have no accommodation, a point at 14 cm will blur into
a
horizontal line, and a point at 20 feet will blur into a vertical line.

Actually this is now doing my head in:-(  Big time! :-)

a plano myope with -3.25 at 180 and no accommodation will see a point at 20
feet as a "clearly focused" verticle line like |. Yes?

But this plano myope with no accommodation will see a point object blurred
into a hypermetropic circle at any distance less than 20 feet and will then
have the minus astigmatism added to that circle of confusion.

(100cm/3.25D)/2.54cm = 12.1 inches near point in one direction. So the
person has the effect of +2.8D in all directions as a blurr circle and the
full effect of the minus astigmatism at 14".  So 180 becomes 90

So sees a blurred line like
---------
---------

Rather than

---------

???

Andrew


text:
"Andrew Judd via MedKB.com" <[email]> wrote

The original post was about a prescription with 3.25 D of astigmatism.

Then we arrived at the concept of zero spherical equivalent. You were
describing that refraction as +1.6 / -1.6. (I'm not sure where you got
1.6125; half of 3.25 is 1.625.)

It's more conventional to describe that surface as +1.62 -3.25 (x 180 or
whatever)

Or, in "plus cyl notation" it's -1.62 +3.25 (x 090). Same surface, different
starting point.

I'm not sure what you're describing. The minimum and maximum fall in front
and behind the retina (assuming no accommodation). With a zero spherical
equivalent refraction, a point source at infinity would be equally blurry in
all orientations. If a vertical line target focuses in front of the retina,
a horizontal line target will focus behind the retina. In ophthalmic optics,
the region mapped by a full set of such points describes a conoid, the
"conoid of Sturm." The zone of zero spherical equivalent is called the
"circle of least confusion." If you google those terms we may find more
common ground.

-MT


text:
Dear Mike and Jan

Thanks for your help here.

I was wrong about the line not rotating 90 degree either side of the retina.

I can see that the convential way of writing the mixed astigmatic eye helps
to make things much clearer.  I was incorrectly reasoning that the
astigmatic error only exists close to the retina on either side of it,
rather than it being present across all distances from the crystalline lens
thru to infinity.

Jan, my original comment of +1.5/-1.5 was based on me misreading -3.25 for -
3.00 but i feel your correction to +1.75/-1.5 was based on you being a bit
hasty in proving me wrong.   Subsequently I did not admit my error and came
up with yet another maths error instead of what i still feel would have
been a reasonable outcome of no spherical error for those wanting
uncorrected distance vision.


text:
"Andrew Judd via MedKB.com" <[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

Andrew, I am afraid you never learn.
In your example there is still a spherical error along with an astigmatic
one.

For me it is still astonishing to see Andrew, who says he can determine a
character or behavior by knowing the persons ametropia, having such a lack
in knowledge about just these different kinds of ametropia in human eyes.

Lets say, you think you have learned.
Others might have a different view.


text:
What about Bevs question about a Toric IOL?

These seem problematic but available.

Are they still unreliable or?


subject: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
I've been seeing a dentist - call him Dr. X - for about 3 years after
bad experiences with two prior DMO dentists. Dr. X is not a DMO
participant. I'd gotten a filling from him a number of years ago and
felt he was good and decided I'd be better off paying full freight for
a competent dentist than getting a DMO discount but getting shoddy
care, along with getting hit with a sales pitch for teeth whitening/
rotary toothbrushes/etc. every time I'd go in to these DMO dentists.

Right off the bat I ended up getting a root canal and crown from Dr. X
on a tooth that had decay despite seeing the previous (DMO) dentist
every 3 months due to supposed periodontal disease. I wasn't about to
give the business to the DMO guy, so made the transition before
getting the work done. Actually, it was originally supposed to just be
a crown, but when Dr. X got in there he asked if I'd had pain in the
tooth, which I hadn't, the reason being was he said decay had intruded
on the nerve. About $1400.

I've been seeing him for about 3 years or so, gotten a filling, twice
yearly exams and prophylaxis, and now just got another crown due to
decay around a filling another DMO dentist had done a number of years
ago, which leads to the problem I'm having.

I went for the second visit to get the permanent crown put in, during
which the Dr. was in the room for maybe a couple of minutes to have
the hygienist hand him the adjusted crown with bonding material
applied, he shoved it in, had me bite down on a cotton tube said to
hold it for a couple of minutes with a timer running, and he exited.
The hygienist cleaned off excess material and we were done.

At this point while still in the exam room I said I wanted to ask the
Dr. a question. I didn't realize he was going to duck out as quick as
he did. I was informed that the Dr. was busy in his office, but maybe
she could answer the question. This perturbed me somewhat. I wanted to
ask him about whether he thought I'd gain anything by replacing an
amalgam filling with a composite filling, since I didn't want to
repeat the crown experience. Since it was a specific technical
question I preferred to hear from the Dr. personally not his
assistant, who kept giving me answers that didn't reflect what I was
asking. "Yes, well we can set up an appointment to do this if you
want"  I'm sure you *can* do it, what I want to know is if it would
help prevent decay around the filling.

He had just been in the room 3 minutes ago, he wasn't with a patient,
clearly he was going to see other patients who were there, it didn't
seem unreasonable to me that he could spend 2 - 3 minutes to
personally answer a question. I even clarified whether he was still in
the building. I asked her to go to his office and advise him I'd like
him to answer a question.

When she came back I got more deflecting responses. She didn't say
"he'll be out in a few minutes" (maybe he's in the John or whatever -
fine, I'd be willing to wait) the response was basically he wouldn't
be able to address my question.

Now I'm getting pissed. I've contributed probably $3000 over the last
several years to this mofo's vacation/retirement fund - about $1400
for a crown/ root canal - the need for the RC I'm of course going
solely on his word was needed, about $1000 for this crown - up about
$250 from the last one about 2 years ago, and numerous exams in
between and he's not available to answer a question when he's 100 feet
away in his office. WTF? He seemed okay when I first started going to
him - which is one of the reasons I've been going but it seems the
more money I spend the less cordial he gets. This was all paid up
front, not any payment plan.

I was now in the lobby area about to leave, I'm sure it was obvious I
was po'd - I wasn't yelling and swearing but did comment that I had
just spent a fairly large sum of money and was incredulous that he
"didn't have time" to answer a question. Shortly thereafter he walked
by on the other side of the counter from his office down the hall to
see a patient on the other end of the building. I asked that same
hygienist one more time if he could answer my question. Nope.

Basically as an afterthought one of the girls at the front desk said
she could take my number to have the Dr. call me. I gave her my number
(the one they have on file) and left.

He did call later in the day but nonetheless I'm left with a really
sour taste. I dunno, whaddya think? Do all dentists just take an "Now
I've got your money fuck you" attitude?


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 25, 6:45 pm, [email] wrote:

It's an attitude I reserve for those I perceive as conveying an
attitude that deserves it. They may have done a poor job of conveying
what they meant but "if you don't like shabby treatment you're paying
full price for, you can always go back to the DMO dudes" (among other
things they've said) to me conveys a cavalier, "if you don't like it
tought shit" mentality that I can only assume carries over to their
own practice. If that's not what they meant to convey, then they need
to do a better job of communicating. If that is what they meant to
convey, then screw them.

I have a quite "good", supportive attitude toward those who engender
such.  Ultimately, no, my next option isn't the DMO hacks, it's to
shop for a new dentist and not compound the error of having
contributed to this guy's vacation fund.

It always makes me shake my head in wonder on usenet when people seem
to turn a blind eye to what precipitates a particular "attittude".
Particularly someone who says "everyone is bad, some are just worse
than others."


author: Simplicio

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
This would make a great reading passage on the SAT's. The theme of
this passage is:
a) Courtesy is a professional must
b) Dentists shouldn't get civic awards
c) Litigation against dentists is never a good option
d) ......

The truth is that these days every time you get on the phone people
are rude. I've even had people just cut
me off when they don't like a particular question or I ask "too many
questions", (if I don't ask their name first). In one instance I need
a medical fax sent. The secretary said she sent it, I went to the fax
outlet, said they didn't get it. Asked the secretary to send it again,
said she would, went back to the fax outlet said they didn't get
it.called up the secretary a third time....finally next day she
admitted the fax lines were messed up going through the main
switchboard in the buildng and she had known, but it wasn't her
offices problem because the phone lines coming out of there office
were okay...she wasn't lying because she WAS "sending" the fax... Kids
are coming out of high schools and colleges, these days thinking that
this is normal and that is HOW you are supposed to do your job!

There was a time in the US when salespeople and professionals not only
were courteous but they feared the
consumer. I think that time is long gone. Utimately it is related to
the downfall of the middle class and salespeople
and professionals maybe not getting payed enough. On the other hand if
you've ever worked on an assembyline
type job and know how rude customers can be, and dentistry is an
assembly line, the fact the workers, such as
cashiers can be so rude without getting fired may be a thing to be
admired!


author: Mark & Steven Bornfeld

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
[email] wrote:

	No, they don't.  I generally try to answer patients' questions while
they're there.
	But there may have been an important call (maybe a nature call!) and
sometimes you're just behind.
	The important thing is that he did return your call.  Of course since
it's about the relative merits of a particular tooth, he may have to get
you back in to look--or could he answer your question over the phone?
	Bottom line--if this dentist seemed OK in the past, I'd probably give
this one transgression a pass--but if he seems habitually rushed or
unavailable in the future, you either need a really good explanation, or
a new dentist.

JMO,
Steve


author: Amatus Cremona

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
Maybe he had beans and chili for lunch and could not get off the "throne"
and his staff was too embarrassed to tell you.

Give the person a 2nd chance.  He did call you back and respond to your
concern didn't he?

Do you never return to a restaurant that you have had great meals at, if one
time, you get cold soup?


author: John Weiss

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
<[email]> wrote...

I never had a dentist like that.  Time to find another one.


author: Al Bundy

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 24, 11:50 am, [email] wrote:

I don't think there's enough information for you to make a decision to
switch yet. My dentist would answer any reasonable question if I
wanted to wait for him to be free. Your question would not have taken
long to answer unless you are the kind of person that tends to be a
time waster and there's no indication of that. A good dentist
schedules his work time in units based upon the expected work. He
should include enough time for spot questions, especially when this
might evolve into more business for him. He might have been running
behind or had a tough situation in the back room. When he returned
your call he was more in a position to give you whatever time you
needed. I'd cut him some slack because the work is more important than
the chair side manner. Perhaps your complaint has to do more with the
staff than the dentist as they were running interference for him.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 24, 12:09 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<[email]> wrote:

He returned the call but it was only by luck that I happened to be
home. And a phone call wasn't his idea, it was that of his front desk
clerk. Had I not been home it would have been a matter of playing
phone tag assuming he would make subsequent efforts to follow up. He
also mentioned he was "between patients" - i.e. "I'm in a hurry"  Had
he answered my question when I was there in the same building, it
would have been a moot point.

The question was answerable over the phone, it was also answerable in
his office.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 24, 5:03 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <[email]> wrote:

When I'm paying what works out to about $500 - $750/hr up-front,
before the work is even completed - and with no expressed warranty on
how long the work is supposed to be good for - I don't have much
sympathy about them feeling I'm "wasting their time" with a couple of
questions.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 24, 3:03 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <[email]> wrote:

No, they've been there for years. I think they're the "head hygienist"
or whatever you'd call them. It had nothing to do with their being new
or experienced, the Dr. was made aware I wanted to speak to him and
declined to do so.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 24, 10:06 pm, Steven Fawks <[email]> wrote:

I'm human too, and that means I don't care for the bum's rush from
someone I'm paying a lot of money.

I'm also one of the "others". Allowing time for inquiries on the part
of the patient are part of "fulfilling one's committment" for "high
quality care".

How many patients he crams his schedule with is discretionary. It
sounds like what you really mean is you don't want a patient to impede
your ability to get the cattle through the gate a$ quickly a$ po$
$ible. Screw their silly-ass questions.

WTF kind of attitude is that? I'm paying what he's asking, it's not a
charity situation. I can see what mentality you're possessed of. You
don't give a fuck either.

Gee, hope you don't get sued or anything.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 24, 9:52 pm, Steven Fawks <[email]> wrote:

If it's a question in their mind about their dental care it's a
legitimate question. If one honestly feels someone is burning up too
much time there are tactful ways to handle it. "I'm sorry, I really
need to get to another patient right now, but I do want to answer your
questions, so I tell you what, go ahead and write down your questions
and leave them at the front desk. As soon as I'm able I'll be happy to
call you or write to you to answer them."

Or something along those lines. Hiding in your office to avoid them
and refusing to address them or taking a dismissive attitude isn't on
the list of good ways to handle it. It may be on the list of a prick
who really doesn't give a shit and concerns themselves more with
spending as little time with each patient as possible than worrying
about whether they get their silly questions answered.

Yes, they're not asking questions because they want to understand
something, their motivation is obviously to wreck your schedule -
which is entirely of your making.  With every sentence both in this
and your subsequent post you reinforce my impression of what you must
be like as a care provider if you are in fact a dentist. Maybe I'm
completely misreading what you're intending to convey, but I'm going
by the words you're choosing, which make you sound like an abrasive
prick. From some of the other answers, fortunately it appears yours is
not the only type of attitude one can expect, but certainly one to
avoid.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 25, 12:58 pm, Dartos <[email]> wrote:

There's no question I'm not in a dentist lovin' frame of mind at the
moment, phrases like "Well, go back to the DMO dudes if you don't like
it"  I believe to be coming from a severely wrong-minded mentality.

Oh wait, you and Fawks are one and the same, same e-mail, different
NNTP. Ah ha...

It doesn't make them my bitch, but it does mean I'm paying for
ownership of time, good-faith, honest application of skills and
consideration. You give someone money, you're supposed to get
something for it. I believe this goes beyond the technical application
of dentistry. I realize you're hypothesizing but I believe it would be
hyperbole to characterize my particular expectations as unreasonable.

I also  believe it's possible that some people can fall into a mindset
where they see their customers as so many cash cows in the cattle gate
and their focus is going through the process as uninterrupted as
possible and the "peripheral" stuff becomes less of a consideration. I
didn't have 20 questions about toothpaste as someone else described, I
had a specific short, technical question. I believe wanting to be
informed is within the scope of reason. I have a somewhat technical
mind, some 80-year old grandma or housewife might not think of the
ramifications of a particular type of filling, I did.

They're in a particular circumstance where there's not a lot of
accountability. They don't have a boss to register a complaint with,
as I understand it the professional oversight groups are something of
a joke. Unless they really screw up there's no litigation option. I
found out later that one of the previous DMO dentists I had gone to
has a long-running rep in the area as being a hack, yet he's still in
business, which I've heard is a common tale with DMO dentists.

And once he's sitting on a healthy bankroll he may feel less
motivation to be that concerned. I don't know the guy outside of his
office, he may have been a prick all along and just hid it well.

And they're also in a position to milk the situation. They say you
need a root canal. I don't ever see any closeups of where the decay
has intruded on the root.  Or how do I know he doesn't do a filling in
such a way as to promote future decay and a year or so down the road
"oopsie, you need a crown/root canal". *Cha-ching*  All the while
people know them as good old Dr. X, he gets civic awards, is on the
city beautification committee, etc.

I don't find wanting to ask a question that would take 2 - 3 minutes
tops to resolve to be abusing a relationship or in any way overly
demanding. I believe well within reason to someone who's willing to
"bend over backwards" to treat his patients well.


author: Steven Fawks

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
Perhaps we just got off on the wrong foot, or maybe you are a needy
control freak.

I don't know.

It's the same as saying there's good in everyone, just some people
are 'gooder' than others.

If you really think I am a big jerk, that's fine with me.  But I think
you doth protest too much.

This sounds like a fairly petty matter to blow into such a big issue.

If you're offended, move on.  If the quality of treatment out weighs
the 'snub', bite the bullet and stay.  It's your call.

Steve


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
Simplicio wrote:

That's REALLY looking on the bright side, Clinton!

Steve


author: tenthmed

subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
In 30 years, I've worked with, and for, a lot of different general
dentists. It has been my experience as a patient/consumer, that dentists
do not behave in this manner. This "take-it-or-leave it" attitude I have
only seen from some physicians and only from those who are such
esteemed, technical, specialists that they do indeed not "need" you, you
need them. The same thing has happened in pharmacy. Since the chains
have virtually eliminated the independent pharmacy, they can treat their
patients/customers about any way they want. Try getting a $4 Rx filled
at Wal-Mart and you will see this attitude. Go to an almost extinct
independent and you will get a whole different level of service

As far as assembly line goes, I have never seen this in dentistry. Most
offices are either a sole-proprietor or small-group model, hence there
is usually a close relationship with the individual patient. Also, the
nature of actually "doing" dentistry requires a close one-on-one
contact. Unfortunately medicine and pharmacy have for the most part
become "assembly-line".

Sure, some dentists don't like people, but the vast majority are people
persons.

In the late '70s, there was a glut of dentists flooding the dental
business, hence EVERY patient was extremely important to the dentist and
we went to extremes to please this patient in order to survive. It is
now the 21st century but I don't get the feeling that pleasing each and
every patient has been abandoned in favor of production. There is only
so much that an individual dentist can produce in a day.

However, some patients, no matter how hard one tries, are never
satisfied. Also, this particular dentist could be the proverbial
exception to the rule. This situation could be either one, or a
combination of both.

Why don't you again ask some local friends where they get their dental
work and if they are happy with their dentists. Maybe then you will be
able to find the clinician who best meets all of your
expectations/perceptions of quality and personal professional attitude.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
On Sep 26, 2:02 pm, [email] wrote:

You're a great guy.


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
Al Bundy wrote:

	Generally I agree.  But the rushed feeling communicated is pretty much
what you go to a non-DMO dentist to avoid.

Steve


subject: Re: Opinions on dentist conduct

text:
Well, I don't know you, I don't know the dentist involved, and
I don't know what was actually going on in the office that day.

I do know that I have a few patients that when I see their name
on the schedule, I know things are going to be tough.  A routine
hygiene check can turn into a 30 minute discussion on 10 different
toothpaste formulations.

These patients obviously think they are asking legitimate questions
and just find ways to wreck any attempt at staying on time for the
rest of the day.

Even if this is not a true description of you, it may have been the
dentist's interpretation of who you represented.

Steve