subject: Re: Aspirin, vitamin K, calcification?

text:
In sci.med.cardiology ada <[email]> wrote:

Then does physical exercise overcome the effects of warfarin? And/or
aspirin if apsirin does lead to clacification?

Thanks,

here is a study couresy of PubMed:

  Vitamin K status and bone mass in women with and without aortic
   atherosclerosis: a population-based study.

   Jie KG, Bots ML, Vermeer C, Witteman JC, Grobbee DE.
   Calcif Tissue Int. 1996 Nov;59(5):352-6.

   Department of Biochemistry and Cardiovascular Research Institute
   Maastricht (CARIM), University of Limburg, P.O. Box 616, 6200 MD
   Maastricht, The Netherlands.

   Gammacarboxyglutamate (Gla) is an uncommon amino acid formed by
   vitamin K action. Increasing evidence indicates that Gla-proteins are
   involved in the regulation of calcification processes in both bone
   tissue and atherosclerotic vessel wall. In a population-based study we
   have previously shown that in a group of 113 postmenopausal women the
   presence of abdominal aortic calcifications is associated with a
   reduced vitamin K status. In the present study we investigated whether
   this reduced vitamin K status was also associated with differences in
   bone mass or circulating calciotropic hormone levels. Serum
   immunoreactive osteocalcin with low affinity for hydroxyapatite
   (irOCfree) was used as a marker for vitamin K status. After correction
   for age it was found that women with atherosclerotic calcifications
   had a 7% lower bone mass as measured by metacarpal radiogrammetry
   (mean difference: 3.2 mm2, 95% CI: -0. 2-6.5, P = 0.06). No
   differences between both groups of women were observed for serum
   intact parathyroid hormone (PTH) and serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels.
   In the atherosclerotic women (n = 34), markers for vitamin K status
   were inversely associated with bone mass (r = -0.47, P = 0.013),
   whereas no such association was found in the nonatherosclerotic women
   (n = 79). It is concluded that the atherosclerotic women in this study
   may be at higher risk for osteoporotic fractures as evidenced by their
   lower bone mass and higher serum irOCfree levels. The finding that in
   atherosclerotic women vitamin K status is associated with bone mass
   supports our hypothesis that vitamin K status affects the
   mineralization processes in both bone and in atherosclerotic plaques.

I suppose it is possible that lack of exercise was the cause of the low
bone mass and the calcification.

Other studies, I went wrong on non-fat milk:

   Is calcium excess in western diet a major cause of arterial disease?

   Seely S.
   Int J Cardiol. 1991 Nov;33(2):191-8.

   Comment in:
     * Int J Cardiol. 1992 Feb;34(2):227-8 PMID: 1737679
     * Int J Cardiol. 1992 May;35(2):281-3 PMID: 1572753

   The daily requirement of a young adult for calcium is 300-400 mg, the
   quantity consumed in many third-world countries. The dietary intake
   can be doubled or trebled by consumption of milk, thus half a litre of
   milk, consumed by many individuals daily in prosperous countries, adds
   600 mg. The need for calcium is greatly reduced in old age, so that
   the excess from a given intake becomes more pronounced. The potential
   hazard of a high intake is that a small fraction finds its way into
   soft tissues. The aorta is notably prone to calcification, resulting
   in loss of elasticity. The aorta and its large branches constitute an
   elastic reservoir, distended during systole and contracting in
   diastole. This contraction provides the energy for the maintenance of
   diastolic pressure, which decreases with the deterioration of
   elasticity and needs a continually increasing systolic pressure to
   restore its normal value. The heart is disadvantaged in two ways. Its
   work is increased by having to eject the systolic volume into a
   stiffer reservoir, and the diastolic filling of the coronary arteries
   is reduced. This is the main cause of hypertension in old age--there
   is no increase in blood pressure with age in undeveloped countries
   where intake of calcium is low. The best cure would be prevention: the
   reduction of intake of calcium in prosperous countries. Failing that,
   phytic acid is suggested as the best calcium antagonist. Phytic acid,
   a natural product present in grains, converts dietary calcium into
   insoluble phosphates which pass unabsorbed through the digestive
   tract. The presently used calcium antagonists are not so satisfactory.

   Milk and other dietary influences on coronary heart disease.

   Grant WB.
   Altern Med Rev. 1998 Aug;3(4):281-94.

   NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va., USA.
   [email]

   While dietary links to ischemic heart disease (IHD) and coronary heart
   disease (CHD) mortality have been studied for many years, the
   correlation has not clearly been resolved, especially for older
   populations. In this paper, a multi-country statistical approach
   involving 32 countries is used to find dietary links to IHD and CHD
   for various age groups aged 35+. For IHD, milk carbohydrates were
   found to have the highest statistical association for males aged 35+
   and females aged 65+, while for females aged 35-64, sugar was found to
   have the highest association. In the case of CHD, non-fat milk was
   found to have the highest association for males aged 45+ and females
   aged 75+, while for females 65-74, milk carbohydrates and sugar had
   the highest associations, and for females aged 45-64, sugar had the
   highest association. A number of mechanisms have been proposed in the
   literature that might explain the milk carbohydrate or non-fat milk
   association. One of the most prominent theories is that animal
   proteins contribute to homocysteine (Hcy) production; however, milk
   more than meat lacks adequate B vitamins to convert Hcy to useful
   products. Lactose and calcium in conjunction with Hcy from consumption
   of non-fat milk may also contribute to calcification of the arteries.

   Calcium intake and blood pressure in seven Japanese populations.

   Iso H, Terao A, Kitamura A, Sato S, Naito Y, Kiyama M, Tanigaki
   M, Iida M, Konishi M, Shimamoto T, et al.
   Am J Epidemiol. 1991 Apr 15;133(8):776-83.

   Institute of Community Medicine, University of Tsukuba, Ibaraki-ken,
   Japan.

   The relation between dietary calcium and blood pressure was examined
   in 1,928 men, ages 40-69 years, from five geographic and two
   occupational populations in Japan. Dietary calcium intake was
   estimated using 24-hour dietary recall in systematic samples of
   participants of population-based cardiovascular surveys from 1983 to
   1987. The means of daily calcium intake of the study populations
   ranged from 449 to 695 mg, approximately 300 mg lower than the
   recommended US dietary calcium intake. Linear regression analyses were
   used to examine the relation between dietary calcium and blood
   pressure within each population, controlling for age, body mass index,
   alcohol consumption, and sodium intake. Total calcium intake was
   inversely associated with the systolic blood pressure level in each
   population, and the pooled estimate of the regression coefficients for
   millimeters of mercury of blood pressure per 100-mg increase in
   calcium intake was -0.54 (95% confidence interval -0.89 to -0.19). The
   inverse association between calcium intake and diastolic blood
   pressure was less consistent, and the pooled estimate did not reach
   statistical significance (-0.10, 95% confidence interval -0.34-0.14).
   Inverse associations existed for both dairy and nondairy food sources
   of calcium when analyzed separately, and the association was
   significant only for dairy calcium. Although a causal relation between
   dietary calcium and blood pressure cannot be established, these
   results suggest a possible public health implication in Japan of
   increasing calcium intake for the prevention and control of
   hypertension, where average dietary calcium intake is low.

  Tissues and organs as indicators of intestinal absorption of minerals
   and trace elements, evaluated in rats.

   Larsen T, Sandstrom B.
   Biol Trace Elem Res. 1992 Nov;35(2):185-99.

   National Institute of Animal Science, Animal Physiology and
   Biochemistry, Foulum, Tjele, Denmark.

   Tissue and organ deposition and blood parameters were evaluated as
   indices of mineral and trace element absorption in rats. The
   absorption of elements was quantified in relation to nitrogen
   retention, i.e., considering the weight gain and new tissue synthesis.
   A rapeseed meal diet was supplied with three levels of calcium, two
   levels of zinc, and two levels of copper in a factorial design. In
   general, an increase in dietary mineral content increased the relative
   absorption, which in turn, increased the tissue deposition
   progressively. Striated muscle, however, did not respond to either an
   increased calcium or zinc supply. Furthermore, an increased calcium
   absorption caused a depression of the fractional phosphorus and
   magnesium content of femur bones. The copper content of the kidneys
   and the heart muscle was directly proportional to the amount of
   absorbed zinc and iron, respectively. The iron content of tissue was,
   in general, inversely proportional to zinc absorption and showed a
   tendency to be directly proportional to copper absorption. The zinc
   level in tissues was, in a similar way, inversely correlated to
   measured calcium absorption. In conclusion, interactions between
   elements do not only affect the intestinal element absorption, but
   also the distribution of already absorbed elements in tissues and
   organs.

Is it that the striated muscle exercises more? Then how do we get the
non-striated artery muscle to exercise?

to reply please remove any `shell' from between @ and caverock

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author: Brian Sandle

subject: & Vitamin E => calcification (Was: Re: Aspirin, vitamin K, calcification?)

text:
In sci.med.cardiology Brian Sandle <[email]> wrote:

I need to check doses but
http://www.mindspring.com/~sandysimmons/health_links.html#salicylates
gives how salicylates in general (of which aspirin is one) antagonise
vitamin K.

And it looks like I went wrong on vitamin E, also at some 300mg daily,
for many years, since vitamin E also antagonises vitamin K.

I got several severe narrowings near branchings. (Want to know more about
turbulence depositing, too. Or is the cholesterol plaque the attempt to
heal a lesion caused by the impact of blood at metres per second
velocity changing direction? Remeber feel of force on your hand from a
garden hose)

please remove any `shell' from between @ and caverock to reply.

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subject: Turbulence and cholesterol depositing (Was: Re: & Vitamin E => calcification)

text:
In sci.med.cardiology Brian Sandle <[email]> wrote:

When I was young I used to play football very hard. As full back I had
took times when I could crouch down for a while to regain my breath.

If my coronary arteries were narrow, genetically, that would mean a higher
blood velocity in them, and more risk of turbulence effects.

Ultra sound scanning of my neck has showed the arteries clear. Doppler at
my ankles showed good blood velocity.

Does all that say anything about moderating exercise somewhat?

www.dadamo.com relates type of exercise to blood grouping.

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author: The Vengeful Bastard

subject: stun wands and ultrasonics

text:
Hi,

I am reasonably new to hobby electronics and am looking for help with
building a 500-625kV stun baton/gun but cannot seem
to find any circuits out there. Does anyone perhaps have any they
could share with me. So far i have only got one for 100Kv :(
Also ideas for Ion ray cannons would be appreciated ;)

Slight change of topic, but maybe someone around here knows:
I recently heard of a car defense gadget which creates an ultrasonic
"force"field which causes nausea / headache to humans, is this
actually posible and is it possible to build at home ?

Any help, ideas, pointers will be much appreciated, i have done much
web searching over the last few weeks, but have not gotten anything
worthwile.. except some plans for sale at exorbitant prices (if i take
into account the exchange rate of where i currenly am:( )

Thanks, and laters,
tvb.
[email]


author: Don Stauffer

subject: Re: stun wands and ultrasonics

text:
I suspect it may be infrasound rather than ultrasound.  I know if I
drive with my car windows open at any moderate to fast speed there is a
very low frequency mode that builds up that is very irritating -- it
gives me a headache.  I have to close windows. If that were louder I can
imagine it would be a real deterent.  I have read in the past about some
very low frequency sound generators being investigated for such effects
(crowd control, etc.).

The Vengeful Bastard wrote:
snip
snip


author: Richard Steven Walz

subject: Re: stun wands and ultrasonics

text:
In article <[email]>,
The Vengeful Bastard  <[email]> wrote:
--------------------------
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/StunGuns/

-Steve


author: Jorge Blade

subject: random gaussian cloud

text:
Hello,
I wonder how to create a list of points (x,y) where the points follow a
gaussian distribution, so given a covariance matrix the generated
ellipsoid will have a determinated orientation. It looks like a cloud
of points.
I am a java programmer and one day surfing I saw a 3D plot of a
gaussian PDF, I engaged in the task of do one. Then I googled and found
the "formula" for bivariate gaussian distribution. But how to generate
a point with x,y gaussian random coordinates? are x and y "independent"
random gaussians or should they be "correlated"?. So I want first to
generate this "cloud" of points. I think this is my basic problem. Any
pointers will be apreciated.
Thanks


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: random gaussian cloud

text:
The following is a general solution to the problem the original poster
asked.

A multivariate (i.e. where each sample is a point in a vector space)
normal distribution is parameterised by a covariance matrix C and a
mean vector m. To generate a multivariate normal sample, you need to
diagonalise the covariance matrix.

This can be achieved by performing an eigendecomposition on the
covariance matrix. This will give you a matrix of eigenvectors, P, and
a diagonal matrix of eigenvalues, D (i.e. all off-diagonal elements
will be zero). The matrix D is your covariance matrix rotated such that
the distribution it represents aligns with the Cartesian axes; because
the off-diagonal elements are zero, each dimension can now be treated
independently.

To generate your samples, generate a normal sample for each dimension,
using the corresponding variance in D as the variance for that
dimension. This gives you a vector, v. You then need to rotate v back
into 'alignment' with the original distribution (as it is currently
'aligned' with the Cartesian axes). This is achieved by computing q:

q = Pv

q is drawn from a distribution with covariance matrix C and mean vector
0 (i.e. the distribution is centred at the origin). You then need to
add the mean of the original distribution to q to yield the final
sample, s:

s = q + m

For general interest, the original covariance matrix is related to the
eigenvalues (the diagonalised covariance matrix) and the eigenvectors
in the following way:

C = P D P^-1

where P^-1 denotes the inverse matrix of P.


subject: Re: random gaussian cloud

text:
E(X1), E(X2) are going to be the "center" of the cloud?.
I am not expert nor in math nor in stat, but from what I have read
these days this should render an sphere or ellipse with the axes
aligned with the ones of the coordinate system, rigth?, if so, how to
make/change the orientation?
Thank you.


author: Jack Tomsky

subject: Re: random gaussian cloud

text:
Suppose that youi want to general a collection of bivariate Gaussian points (x1, x2), where

E(X1) = mu1
E(X2) = mu2
Var(X1) = S11
Var(X2) = S22
Cov(X1, X2) = S12.

Start off by generating independent z1 ~ N(0,1) and z2 ~ N(0,1). For each (z1, z2), let

x1 = mu1 + t11*z1
x2 = mu2 + t12*z1 + t22*z2,

where
t11 = sqrt(S11)
t12 = S12/sqrt(S11)
t22 = sqrt(S22 - S12^2/S11)

Then (x1, x2) will generate the desired bivariate Gaussian distribution.

   Jack


subject: Re: random gaussian cloud

text:
My post started with a unit circle and gave the combined results equivalent to translation, scaling, and rotation transformations.

   Jack


author: Ruth Croxford

subject: Faculty position in applied probability - University of Toronto

text:
The University of Toronto solicits applications for a tenure-stream
appointment in Applied Probability.  The position is subject to
budgetary approval.

The appointment is at the downtown (St. George) campus at the level of
Assistant Professor, to begin July 1, 1996.  This will be a joint
appointment (50/50) between the Departments of Mathematics and
Statistics.  Candidates are expected to have demonstrated excellence in
both teaching and research past their Ph. D.; in particular, a
candidate's research record should show clearly the ability to make
significant original and independent research contributions.  Salary
commensurate with experience.

Applicants should send their complete C.V. including a list of
publications, a short statement describing their research programme,
and all appropriate material about their teaching.  They should also
arrange to have at least four letters of reference sent directly to
Professor V. Ivrii, Associate Chair, Department of Mathematics,
University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada M5S 1A1 or to Professor Michael
Evans, Chair, Department of Statistics, University of Toronto,
Toronto, Canada M5S 1A1.  At least one letter should be primarily
concerned with the candidate's teaching.  In addition, applicants may
wish to submit the electronic application form which is available on
the World Wide Web by accessing the following URL:
   http://www.toronto.edu/math/Jobs.html
To insure full consideration, this information should be received by
December 31, 1995.

In accordance with its Employment Equity Policy, the University of
Toronto encourages applications from qualified women or men, members
of visible minorities, aboriginal peoples and persons with
disabilities.  In accordance with Canadian immigration requirements,
this advertisement is directed to Canadian citizens and permanent
residents.


author: Jim Raynor

subject: Quick Question

text:
hi,

    do you guys know what is the name for the CABLE/ANT cables that are used
in North America?
    RF connectors? UHF connectors? SMA connectors? SMB connectors?

    Thanks

     Jim


author: Ralph Wade Phillips

subject: Re: Quick Question

text:
Howdy!

"Jim Raynor" <[email]> wrote in message
news:b0TL8.20$[email]...
used

        Yes, all are used, depending on what kind of cable and antenna
connection.

        If, however, you're referring to CATV type cables, then they're
known as "F" connectors.

        RwP


author: tinker

subject: Re: Quick Question

text:
Jim Raynor <[email]> wrote in message news:b0TL8.20$[email]...

Are you talking about R-59 coax, for TV?

R-58 (small) or R-8 (large) for radio?

or about the terminals that goes on the end?


author: Michael A. Terrell

subject: Re: Quick Question

text:
Ralph Wade Phillips wrote:

Sometimes you use A "G" connector.  Its a threadless version that just
pushes on over the "F" connector for quick disconnects.  (A common item
on a CATV test bench, and probably in TV shops)


author: Zeljko

subject: Tuner problem

text:
I know that it is hard to fix tuner section without scope, but I don?t
have it, so if someone can help me without using scope, this would be
fine.
I will write what I did until now about non working tuner:
- First, now I can catch two FM local station but signal is very weak, I
have some movements on tuning meter when I seeking stations from 88 MHz
to 108 MHz, but signal meter is always on 0 (because FM signal is always
weak). Because of that I mean that local oscillator is good on front
end.
- I have changed FET01 with new one
- I have changed TR01 and TR02 on F2714 and TR01 on F2919 with the same
2SC1674
- All resistors are good (I checked) and I have replaced C02, C07, C14,
C25 and C28 on F2919
- I have replaced IC03 on F2919 HA1137W

After all, the tuner doesn?t work!

Here there are results of measuring on F2714 Board:
TR01
E-1.3Volts
B-1.98Vlots
C-13.42Volts

TR02
E-7.26Volts
B-7.89Volts
C-13.42Volts

And here http://public.carnet.hr/~zekalini/G8000FM_tuner.jpg I have
schematic diagram of FM part of Sansui G8000 tuner

I finally I have one more question, If I damaged FET with ESD (but I
have shorted all legs of it with one wire, and when I connect it on
board, I removed this wire, I am only asking if?), doest it damaged FET
can pass FM signal or it cannot pass signal?

Regards!


subject: Re: Tuner problem on Sansui receiver

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] says...

As you probably seen, it is tuner of old Sansui G8000 receiver.

Regards!


author: JANA

subject: Re: Tuner problem

text:
You will definitely require the proper test equipment to determine if your
unit does not have any more defective components. Going through the
alignment procedure of the front end is a way to sort of prove if there is a
fault.

For the alignment, you are going to require a FM type calibration signal
generator that can operate in the range of 80 to 110 mHz and 10.7 mHz, with
both carrier, and modulation mode. You will also need a scope, DVM, and if
you are not experienced with the particular model, you will need the
alignment instructions from the service manual.

Trying to troubleshoot and align a device without the proper test gear is
like trying to drive your car through the streets blind folded. You have
absolutely no way to know were you are going.

I have never yet seen someone be able to perform an accurate alignment
without the proper setup. There are some experienced techs that can sort of
do this by ear, if the receiver is not too far out in the first place.

Your only other alternative is to give the set out to a service centre that
has an experienced tech who can work on the front end of FM tuners.


author: Tim Schwartz

subject: Re: Tuner problem on Sansui receiver

text:
Zeljko wrote:
Zeljko,

	I have to agree with JANA that an alignment is absolutely necessary.
As soon as you replace the FET, or even remove and reinstall the old one
you will need to realign at least the front end.  Even moving the
position of parts in the front end can effect the alignment drastically.
  In general, replacing parts in the front end, unless you know that
they are defective, causing a problem and must be replaced is a bad idea.

Regards,
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics


subject: Re: Tuner problem

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] says...

I have Service manual for this receiver, and because of that I know
alignment procedure but I don't have any equipment than FLUKE Digital
multimeter, so I will do what you suggestion me and bring this beauty to
qualified service.
Thank you and best regards!

Zeljko


author: Kevin Alfred Strom

subject: Charles Lindbergh: Aviation, the Cosmos, and the Future of Man

text:
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=1991

Intimations of Cosmotheism: Aviation, the Cosmos, and the Future of
Man
History; Posted on: 2004-02-08 21:17:15 [ Printer friendly ]

 by Charles A. Lindbergh

This piece is the second in a series of articles which will
illustrate some of the earlier intimations, in the works of other
writers and thinkers, of the central ideas of Dr. William Pierces
philosophy, Cosmotheism.

Here the great aviator, scientist, and patriot Charles Lindbergh
speaks of the advancement of man on the eve of our races first
steps on another world in 1969; he hints at a higher type of man
whose dawn may be seen if we can contrive a new process of
evolutionary selection, and speaks of an awareness that our lives
-- and even Life itself -- may only be way stations on a journey of
increasing consciousness, the next stage of which even our best
minds cannot yet imagine. -- K.A.S.

AVIATION AND ASTRONAUTICS were once my prime interests. As a student
pilot, at the age of 20, when aviation was much more dangerous than
it is today, I concluded that if I could fly for ten years before
being killed in a crash, I would be willing to trade an ordinary
lifetime for that experience. In the 30s, I assisted Robert
Goddard, the father of spatial conquests. Standing with him on New
Mexico plains at the foot of his converted-windmill launching tower,
it seemed to me that the greatest adventure man could have would be
to travel out through space.

What motivates man to great adventures? I wonder how accurately
these motives can be analyzed, even by the participants themselves.
When I think of my own flights in the early years of aviation, I
realize that my motives were as obvious, as subtle and as intermixed
as the waves on oceans I flew over. But I can say quite definitely
that they sprang more from intuition than from rationality, and that
the love of flying outweighed practical purposes -- important as the
latter often were.

For instance, I believed that a nonstop flight between New York and
Paris would advance aviations progress and add to my prestige as a
pilot -- with ensuing material rewards. In seeking financial backing
for that 1927 flight, I argued that it would bring closer the golden
era of air transport I felt was bound to come. But without my love
of flying and adventure, and motives I cannot even now discern
clearly, it was a flight I would never have attempted.

Then, as the art of flying transposed to a science, I found my
interest in airplanes decreasing. Rationally I welcomed the advances
that came with self-starters, closed cockpits, radio and automatic
pilots. Intuitively I felt revolted by them, for they upset the
balance between intellect and senses that had made my profession
such a joy. And so, as intuition had led me into aviation in the
first place, it led me back to an early boyhood interest, the
contemplation of life.

Gradually I diverted hours from aviation into biological research.
How mechanical, how mystical was man? Could longevity be extended?
Was death an unavoidable portion of lifes cycle or might physical
immortality be achieved through scientific methods? What would be
the result of artificially perfusing a head severed from its body?
This question, especially, intrigued me and resulted in my working
intermittently for several years in the Department of Experimental
Surgery of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research. There, in
collaboration with the great surgeon Alexis Carrel -- he developing
the operative techniques, and I the design of equipment -- I
constructed an apparatus that, for the first time, could pump
synthetic blood through organs without the entrance of infection.

To me, my years at the Rockefeller Institute involved great
adventures. They convinced me that the cycle of life and death is
essential to lifes progress, and that physical immortality would be
undesirable even if it could be achieved. I found the mechanics of
life less interesting than the mystical qualities they manifest.
With these conclusions, I began studying supersensory phenomena and,
in 1937, flew to India in the hope of gaining insight to yogic
practices.

But the approach and explosion of World War II immersed me in
military aviation and international politics. Mans fundamental need
of survival, for both individual and group, separated me from
projects I would have carried out in peaceful times. After our
fighting war was over (I had worked on the production of bombers and
fighters, and flown 50 combat missions with the Army Air Force and
Marines), the cold war with Russia held me to militarily oriented
tasks -- the study of new weapons, the reorganization of the
Strategic Air Command, the essential need of developing
intercontinental ballistic missiles.

I served for seven years as a member of scientific ballistic-missile
committees, first under the Air Force and then under the Department
of Defense. At the end of this time, with Atlases and Titans in
position, with Minutemen coming and Polaris submarines under way, I
felt our United States had achieved the indestructible power to
destroy any enemy who might attack. But I had become alarmed about
the effect our civilization was having on continents and islands my
military missions took me over-- the slashed forests, the eroded
mountains, the disappearing wilderness and wildlife. I believed some
of the policies we were following to insure our near-future strength
and survival were likely to lead to our distant-future weakness and
destruction. Also, I was tired of windowless briefing rooms,
Pentagon corridors and the drabness of standardized airbases. I
wanted to regain contact with the mystery and beauty of nature.

I resigned from the ballistic-missile committee and declined a
position in the new civil agency being set up for the development of
space. I decided to study environments, peoples and ways of life in
various areas of the world. To make this possible, I returned to my
prewar position of consultant to Pan American World Airways.

Wilderness expeditions in Africa, Eurasia and the American
continents brought me to an appreciation of natures extraordinary
wisdom. I found myself in the fascinating position of moving back
and forth between the ultracivilized on the one hand and the
ultraprimitive on the other, with a resulting clarity of perspective
on areas between -- a perspective that drove into my bones, as well
as into my mind, the fact that in instinct rather than in intellect
is manifest the cosmic plan of life.

Then, a few months ago, I received an invitation from Apollo 8s
astronauts to attend the launching of their mission to orbit the
moon. This plunged me back into astronautics as World War II had
plunged me back into aviation, though for a period of days instead
of years. I was literally hypnotized by the launching. I have spent
most of a lifetime in close contact with test flying and
man-controlled power; but I have never experienced anything to
compare to that mission of Apollo 8.

Three miles away from the pad, where I stood watching with
free-from-duty astronauts, the size of the rocket still seemed huge.
When ignition came, clouds of smoke and flame churned like a storms
convulsions; and when the sound waves struck me, I shook with the
earth itself.

Above that flashing, billowing chaos, the prow of the rocket rose.
In it I visualized the three men I had lunched with hours before,
strapped into position like test pilots, tensed to emergency
procedures and to the dials of the instruments they watched, men
actually launched on a voyage to the moon! For a moment, reality and
memory contorted and Robert Goddard stood watching at my side. Was
he now the dream; his dream, the reality?

During the first seconds of the Apollos inching upward, my
sensation was intensified by a vision of the last launching I had
witnessed, that of a big military missile which rose three or four
feet, faltered, and then crumpled into explosion -- an explosion
seemingly less violent than that smothering the whole aft end of the
Apollo.

My body staggered with the rockets effort to lift above its tower,
relaxed as it leapt upward into air, thrilled as the ball of fire,
with its astronauts, diminished in the vastness of space. Here,
after epoch-measured trials of evolution, earths life was voyaging
to another celestial body. Here one saw our civilization flowering
toward the stars. Here modern man had been rewarded for his
confidence in science and technology. Soon he would be orbiting the
moon.

Talking to astronauts and engineers, I felt an almost overwhelming
desire to reenter the fields of astronautics -- with their
scientific committees, laboratories, factories and blockhouses,
possibly to voyage into space myself. But I know I will not return
to them, despite limitless possibilities for invention, exploration
and adventure.

Why not? Decades spent in contact with science and its vehicles have
directed my mind and senses to areas beyond their reach. I now see
scientific accomplishment as a path, not an end; a path leading to
and disappearing in mystery. Science, in fact, forms many paths
branching from the trunk of human progress; and on every periphery
they end in the miraculous. Following these paths far enough, and
long enough, one must eventually conclude that science itself is a
miracle -- like the awareness of man arising from and then
disappearing in the apparent nothingness of space. Rather than
nullifying religion and proving that God is dead, science enhances
spiritual values by revealing the magnitudes and minitudes -- from
cosmos to atom -- through which man extends and of which he is
composed.

Forty-two years ago, bucking a headwind on a flight in my monoplane
between New York and St. Louis, I tried to look into the future
beyond mans conquest of the air. As the wheel had opened land to
modern travel, and the hull the sea, wings had opened the relatively
universal sky. Only space lay beyond. Could we ever extend our
travels into space? If so, it seemed we must develop rockets and
their jet propulsion. Such dreaming and reasoning brought me in
contact with physicists, chemists and engineers in the explosives
industry -- and eventually with Robert Goddard. Who then could
foretell that, as soon as 1968, men would hurtle around the moon and
back?

Now, again, I try to penetrate the future. What travel may, someday,
take place beyond our solar-system space? What vehicles can we
devise to extend the range of rocket ships as they have extended the
range of aircraft? Scientific knowledge argues that space vehicles
can never attain the speed of light, which makes a puny penetration
of the universe within a human lifespan; and that, therefore, cosmic
distances will confine our physical explorations to those planets
which orbit the sun.

As wings and propellers once limited man to earths thicker
atmosphere, scientifically established principles now seem to limit
him to the space-territory of the minor star he orbits. We are
blocked by lack of time as we were once blocked by lack of air. Mars
and Venus may mark dead ends for spaceship travel, unless we break
through physical laws and construct still-more-advanced vehicles.

But by establishing these new planetary dead ends, are we cracking
open the entrance to another era, as aviation cracked open that of
astronautics -- one that will surpass the era of science as the era
of science surpassed that of religious superstition? Following the
paths of science, we become constantly more aware of mysteries
beyond scientific reach. In these vaguely apprehended azimuths, I
think the great adventures of the future lie -- in voyages
inconceivable by our 20th Century rationality -- beyond the solar
system, through distant galaxies, possibly through peripheries
untouched by time and space.

I believe early entrance to this era can be attained by the
application of our scientific knowledge not to lifes mechanical
vehicles but to the essence of life itself: to the infinite and
infinitely evolving qualities that have resulted in the awareness,
shape and character of man. I believe this application is necessary
to the very survival of mankind.

Science and technology inform us that, after millions of years of
successful evolution, human life is now deteriorating genetically
and environmentally at an alarming and exponential rate. Basically,
we seem to be retrograding rather than evolving. We have only to
look about us to verify this fact: to see megalopolizing cities, the
breakdown of nature, the pollution of air, water and earth; to see
crime, vice and dissatisfaction webbing like a cancer across the
surface of our world. Does this mark an end or a beginning? The
answer, of course, depends on our perception and the action we take.

Every era opens with its challenges, and they cannot be met
successfully by elaborating methods of the past. Our technologies
become inadequate; but among our sciences -- paleontology, genetics,
physics, astronomy, atomics -- are those that still can point a way,
shaping concepts of life, time and space.

We know that tens of thousands of years ago, man departed from both
the hazards and the security of instincts natural selection, and
that his intellectual reactions have become too powerful to permit
him ever to return. It seems obvious that to achieve the maximum
scope of awareness, even to survive as a species, we must contrive a
new process of evolutionary selection. We must find a way to blend
with our present erratic tyranny of mind the countless, subtle and
still-little-known elements that created the tangible shape of man
and his intangible extensions. Through the eons these elements have
raised the human complex to a sensitivity which recognizes that both
the material and the ethereal are varying forms of basic essence.

That is why I have turned my attention from technological progress
to life, from the civilized to the wild. In wildness there is a lens
to the past, to the present and to the future, offered to us for the
looking -- a direction, a successful selection, an awareness of
values that confronts us with the need for and the means of our
salvation. Let us never forget that wildness has developed life,
including the human species. By comparison, our own accomplishments
are trivial.

If we can combine our knowledge of science with the wisdom of
wildness, if we can nurture civilization through roots in the
primitive, mans potentialities appear to be unbounded. Through his
evolving awareness, and his awareness of that awareness, he can
merge with the miraculous -- to which we can attach what better name
than God? And in this merging, as long sensed by intuition but
still only vaguely perceived by rationality, experience may travel
without need for accompanying life.

Will we then find life to be only a stage, though an essential one,
in a cosmic evolution of which our evolving awareness is beginning
to become aware? Will we discover that only without spaceships can
we reach the galaxies; that only without cyclotrons can we know the
interior of atoms? To venture beyond the fantastic accomplishments
of this physically fantastic age, sensory perception must combine
with the extrasensory, and I suspect that the two will prove to be
different faces of each other. I believe it is through sensing and
thinking about such concepts that great adventures of the future
will be found.

Charles A. Lindbergh
July 1969

(illustration: The Spirit Soars by artist Richard Krause)

Source: Kevin Alfred Strom

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=1991


author: C J Campbell

subject: Re: Charles Lindbergh: Aviation, the Cosmos, and the Future of Man

text:
Yeah, Lindy may have flown across the Atlantic and he may have run an
airline, but he was a bit of a nut, espousing a mixture of New Age and
socialist philosophies. In some ways he was the prototypic Californian. :-)

Funny how just because he flew an airplane that people consider his opinions
in other areas to be important.


author: Pat Flannery

text:
Kevin Alfred Strom wrote:http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=1991

Well, you can say what you want...but it's still Lawsonomy for me!
http://www.rcls.org/lawson/index.html
Suction and pressure...those are the keys! ;-)

Pat


author: Neil Gerace

text:
"C J Campbell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
:-)

I thought he was a Nazi sympathiser.


author: Tom Sixkiller

text:
"C J Campbell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
:-)
opinions

Same thing with Albert Einstein, Helen Keller, any Hollyweird celebrity...


author: Dan Luke

text:
"Neil Gerace" wrote:

Lindbergh's intense intellectual curiosity was unfortunately combined
with ignorance, naivete' and gullibility. He was easily misled by those
he perceived (often wrongly) as learned authorities.


text:
"Neil Gerace" <[email]> wrote in message
news:4030f60c$0$22509$[email]...

The Nazis were socialists. Their name in fact is an acronym for the National
Socialist Workers Party. In those days many socialists in the United States
and elsewhere considered Hitler's ideas on economics and eugenics to be very
progressive. These people formed a large part of the anti-war movement in
the US. It was not until Hitler turned on his former ally, Stalin, that the
socialists began to abandon the Nazis in any great numbers. After Pearl
Harbor most socialists began agitating for more aid to the Soviet Union and
advocating the early opening of a 'second front.'

There were notable exceptions. Charlie Chaplin, for one, was disgusted with
Hollywood's infatuation with Hitler and produced a scathing satire. It made
him a virtual outcast for years. Chaplin did not return to the good graces
of Hollywood intellectuals (now there is an oxymoron) until he was fingered
by the Un-American Activities Committee.

There are still many socialists who, while they think Hitler went too far,
continue to advocate Nazi style eugenic theories and economics. Some of
these people are so extreme in their views that they advocate extermination
of the entire human race. Al Gore comes dangerously close to falling in this
camp. Nearly all abortion advocates support eugenics in one form or another,
in an attempt to prevent poverty (as if there was a 'poverty' gene),
overpopulation, birth defects, and Republicans.


text:
"Neil Gerace" <[email]> wrote in message
news:4030f60c$0$22509$[email]...

Yes, he was...a prototypical Kalifornian.


text:
"Tom Sixkiller" <[email]> wrote in message
news:wx9Yb.48$[email]...

Exactly. In fact, it can probably be demonstrated that most ultra-achievers
are a type of idiot savant, so focused on one area of achievement that they
are virtually morons in all other areas of human endeavor.


author: Henry Spencer

text:
In article <[email]>,
C J Campbell <[email]> wrote:

Kind of.  As with the Fascists in Italy, it's better to say that they had
socialist origins, and attracted people from some of the more extreme
offshoots of socialism.  They weren't socialists in the traditional sense
of the term, at least not for long, despite the name.

Most Western leftists, socialists and communists alike, were vehemently
anti-fascist and anti-Hitler much earlier -- substantial numbers of
socialists from various countries went to Spain to fight against Hitler's
fascist buddy, Franco, in the Spanish Civil War -- and in particular were
horrified when their beloved Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact
with Hitler in 1939.  (The horror was bipartisan :-), since many people
who thought of Hitler as a bulwark against Communism were also aghast.)


text:
Dan Luke wrote:

Yeah, but he nailed some German chick repeatedly, as the DNA tests
revealed...looks like we should call this guy the "Bone Eagle"!

Pat


text:
"Dan Luke" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Rather like today's media and academia.


author: Dick Morris

text:
C J Campbell wrote:

And where did you get that remarkable bit of information?


text:
"C J Campbell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Californian.
National
States
very
the
and

http://tinyurl.com/2pr2k

     Stalin's Apologist: Walter Duranty, the New York Time's Man in Moscow,
by S.J. Taylor


text:
"Dick Morris" <[email]> wrote in message > >
far,
extermination
this

Reading Gore's "Earth in the Balance," for one. His rather public views on
abortion, for another. Gore also advocates banning the internal combustion
engine. When told that this will result in at least four billion deaths, he
acknowledges that there will be some disruption, but that it is better for
the environment long term. Though he couches his views in saner terms, you
can boil his argument down to a claim that there is a big die-off coming
anyway and that if we don't kill the four billion now then more will die
later. This is actually a very popular position among academic elites.


text:
"Dick Morris" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
message
an
and
Californian.
National
States
very
in
the
and
with
made
graces
fingered
far,
extermination
this


text:
"Henry Spencer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Most western leftists, etc., were anti-Hitler in light of their desire for
power, not on any matter of principle. A good example was most of the French
Resistance in WWII, who wanted to rule France themselves.


author: Ool

text:
"C J Campbell" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...

Geez, I had no idea we've been so close to having a total nutcase for
the most powerful man in the World!  Well, good thing then that the US
has a head of state now instead who has a vested interest in having as
many internal combustion engines idling away as possible...


text:
Tom Sixkiller wrote:

If you can cite the page number where Stephen Schneider expresses the
desire to "exterminat[e] the entire human race", or close to it, I would
appreciate it.


text:
"C J Campbell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
of
in
he

Misc. Quotes from the Environmentalist Leadership
In their own words.... yikes!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or for a social change to
 come and bomb us into Stone Age, where we might live like Indians in our
 valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our
 homemade religion -- guilt-free at last!"
    - Stewart Brand  (writing in the Whole Earth Catalogue)

"We must ... reclaim the roads and the plowed land, halt dam construction,
 tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers, and return to wilderness
 millions and tens of millions of [acres of] presently settled land."
 - David Foreman, Founder of Earth First! (taken from his book
   Ecodefense: A Field Guide to Monkey Wrenching)

"We must make this an insecure and uninhabitable place for capitalists and
 their projects.  This is the best contribution we can make towards
 protecting the earth and struggling for a liberating society."
        - Ecotage, an offshoot of Earth First!

"To feed a starving child is to exacerbate the world population problem."
 - Lamont Cole (as quoted by Elizabeth Whelan in her book Toxic Terror)

"This is as good a way to get rid of them as any."
 - Charles Wursta, Chief Scientist for the Environmental Defense Fund,
   in response to the banning of DDT (as quoted in Toxic Terror by
   Elisabeth Whelan) ("Them" refers to "all those little brown people
   in poor countries.")

"I got the impression that instead of going out to shoot birds, I should go
 out and shoot the kids who shoot birds."
     - Paul Watson, founder of Greenpeace (quoted in Access to Energy, Vol.
        10, No. 4, Dec 1982)

"The planet is about to break out with fever, indeed it may already have,
 and we [human beings] are the disease.  We should be at war with ourselves
 and our lifestyles."
 - Thomas Lovejoy, tropical biologist and assistant secretary to
   the Smithsonian Institution (quoted by David Brooks in The Wall
   Street Journal article, "Journalists and Others for Saving the
   Planet, 1989)

"Now, in a widening sphere of decisions, the costs of error are so
 exorbitant that we need to act on theory alone, which is to say on
 prediction alone.  It follows that the reputation of scientific prediction
 needs to be enhanced.  But that can happen, paradoxically, only if
 scientists disavow the certainty and precision that they normally insist
 on.  Above all, we need to learn to act decisively to forestall predicted
 perils, even while knowing that they may never materialize.  We must take
 action, in a manner of speaking, to preserve our ignorance.  There are
 perils that we can be certain of avoiding only at the cost of never
 knowing with certainty that they were real."
 - Jonathan Schell (in his book, Our Fragile Earth)

"A global climate treaty must be implemented even if there is no scientific
 evidence to back up the greenhouse effect."
 - Richard Benedick, an employee from the State Department working
   on assignment for the Conservation Foundation (from his report
   Who Needs Evidence?)

"[W]e have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic
statements,
 and make little mention of any doubts we may have.  Each of us has to
decide
 what the right balance is between being effective and being honest."
 - Stephen Schneider (quoted in Our Fragile Earth by Jonathan Schell)

"Let's face it.  We don't want safe nuclear power plants.  We want NO
 nuclear power plants."
 - A spokesman for the Government Accountability Project, an
   offshoot of the Institute for Policy Studies (reported in
   The American Spectator, Vol 18, No. 11, Nov. 1985)

"Scientists who work for nuclear power or nuclear energy have sold their
 soul to the devil.  They are either dumb, stupid, or highly compromised....
 Free enterprise really means rich people get richer.  And they have the
 freedom to exploit and psychologically rape their fellow human beings in
 the process....  Capitalism is destroying the earth.  Cuba is a wonderful
 country.  What Castro's done is superb."
 - Helen Caldicott, Australian pediatrician, speaking for the Union
   of Concerned Scientists (as quoted by Elizabeth Whelan in her
   book Toxic Terror)

"We've already had too much economic growth in the United States.  Economic
 growth in rich countries like ours is the disease, not the cure."
 - Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University biologist

Paul Ehrlich deserves special attention, because his views sum up the
anti-human trends of political-environmentalist thought -- trends that
frequently manifest themselves in predictions of global famine or plans for
draconian measures to halt or reverse population growth.  In "The
Population Bomb", Ehrlich predicted that the "battle to feed humanity is
over.  In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines.  Hundreds of millions
of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs
embarked upon now.  Population control is the only answer."

Of course, that inevitable mass starvation didn't happen unless you were
unlucky enough to have it imposed upon you by a Communist government in
Ethiopia.  But Ehrlich has persisted in his predictions.  He predicted
global famine in 1985 and was wrong.  Now he says that the population of
the United States will shrink from 250 million to about 22.5 million before
1999, because of famine and global warming.

He still recommends reducing population by force, saying: "Several coercive
proposals deserve serious consideration, mainly because we will ultimately
have to resort to them, unless current trends in birth rates are revised."
Among Ehrlich's "coercive proposals" for the United States are
deindustrialization, liberalized abortion, and tax breaks for people who
have themselves sterilized.  Ehrlich has many supporters in the
environmental movement.

"The right to have children should be a marketable commodity, bought and
 traded by individuals but absolutely limited by the state."
 - Kenneth Boulding, originator of the "Spaceship Earth" concept
   (as quoted by William Tucker in Progress and Privilege, 1982)

"Childbearing [should be] a punishable crime against society, unless the
 parents hold a government license....  All potential parents [should be]
 required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes
 to citizens chosen for childbearing." - David Brower, Friends of the Earth
    (as quoted by Rael Jean Isaac and Erich Isaac in The Coercive Utopians,
      1985)

Lastly, when Prince Philip of the United Kingdom, leader of the World
Wildlife Fund, stated recently that, were he to be reincarnated, he would
wish to return as a "killer virus to lower human population levels."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------


text:
C J Campbell wrote:

Four billion dead does not equal "some disruption"!

Gore certainly is not saying that we should just suddenly shut down the
entire world agricultural and transportation systems so we can stop
burning fossil fuels.  What he said (page 326) was:  "[I]t ought to be
possible to establish a coordinated global program to accomplish the
strategic goal of completely eliminating the internal combustion engine
over, say, a twenty-five year period". There is going to be "some
disruption" when the petroleum supply runs out (becomes too expensive to
burn) somewhere around the middle of this century, and we would be well
advised to transition to renewable energy sources sometime before that
happens, but that doesn't mean that four billion people are going to
die.  Gore never "acknowledged" anything of the sort.

Who wants to kill off four billion people now?  Quotes please, with
complete, original references.


text:
"Dick Morris" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
in

You might "appreciate it", but would it make a dent in your skull?


text:
"Ool" <[email]> wrote in message
news:c0rhkj$p8$03$[email]...
news:[email]...
on
combustion
he
for
you

Interestingly, Gore hints in his book that banning the internal combustion
engine might initially cause a spike in population growth as farmers attempt
to replace machinery with children. Gore believes that poverty and
starvation cause rapid population growth as families have extra children in
order to allow for those that will die of starvation and disease. It does
not occur to him that children are wealth producers, especially in poor
societies, so he misses the conclusion his own book indicates he should
make. Gore is "troubled" by forced sterilizations and abortions in China,
but does not condemn them as wrong. Gore also is surprised that Bush does
not agree with him these issues, because Bush served on the Senate
Population Control Committee.

As I said, Gore's views, radical as they are, really have become almost
mainstream. IOW, Gore is one of the 'moderate' ones. There are plenty of
politicians on both left and right and from all parties that hold similar
views to a greater or lesser degree. Once you accept the idea that poor
people are not as valuable as rich people, then killing them because they
are poor always seems to eventually present itself as a solution.


text:
"Ool" <[email]> wrote in message
news:c0rhkj$p8$03$[email]...
news:[email]...
on
combustion
he
for
you

Truth, right in your face, hurts, doesn't it, especially when it shows which
side of the fence you're on.


text:
Tom Sixkiller wrote:

I don't know - I've never gotten an answer when I tried to get some
right-wing anti-environmentalist to back up an absurd position like that
with facts.


author: [redacted]

subject: Ares

text:
I know it's a long way off, but what is the plan for re-entry of the
Orion crew capsule or whatever it's called - are they going to aim for
the lakebed at Edwards or what?

Also, concering a trip to Mars, which might happen in the early
2020s.. how long would the mission be? I really hope I get to see that
happen in my lifetime..
But how long would the journey out there be? How long would the
spend.. and the journey back?

And how big would the crew be? I would think there'd be a lot of
things to consider - I'm assuming we're talking at least a couple of
years - that's a long way to be away from home and family..


author: Hyper

subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 15, 5:57 pm, "Jeff Findley" <[email]>
wrote:

I don't mean to be rude, but you seem fixated on cyclers and ignore
the plainly stated subject.
My limited understanding is that a craft that goes from a planet to
another and ends in orbit around the target body is NOT a cycler.
I'm also ignorant of proposed cyclers that use aerobraking or nuclear
propulsion (even NEP).


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 9, 8:33 pm, JF Mezei <[email]> wrote:

The current plans don't include that kind of vehicle.
Therere won't be anything left to refurbish.
We can't build yet such *spaceships*.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 10, 9:14?am, "Jeff Findley" <[email]>
wrote:

We do its the shuttles, being retired cost too much to operate.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 10, 4:14 pm, "Jeff Findley" <[email]>
wrote:

Something that needs just "cleaning and restocking"?
Even with unlimited funds you'd need several years to do the R&D.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 10, 10:21 pm, JF Mezei <[email]> wrote:

And electricity generation, life support and .. pretty much
everything.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 14, 6:17 pm, "Jeff Findley" <[email]>
wrote:

<snip>
<snip>
<snip>

Nothing at all.
I think we *can't yet* build them.
Who said anything about cyclers?
The guy wrote: "epedition ship" and "earth orbit".
That (to me) means aerobraking (possibly at Mars too) or nuclear
propulsion. Need I say more?


subject: Re: Ares

text:
well a nuclear engine will cut travl time a lot and probably help make
the trip affordable.....
all the redundancy for a multi year flight will make costs skyrocket


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 9, 7:42 am, "Danny Deger" <[email]> wrote:

There are serious problems with short stay missions (chemical
propulsion).
For one the return trip is longer, but what I really hate about it is
that it takes the craft *inside* the orbit of Venus.
This is a good summary: http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/mars/marsprof.html

IMHO 30 days on Mars are not worth the tens of $B such mission
require.


author: Brian Gaff

subject: Re: Ares

text:
Well, I've heard so many conflicting statements on where they would land,
I'm beginning to think nobody has decided yet.

As for how long, that depends on whether its a land grab and run, or a
proper stay.

If the latter then before anyone goes, someone will need to land the living
quarters with spares for two years, and have a fool proof way to give oxygen
and food etc, to however many they want to send. Additionally, presumably,
there will have to be some kind of living accommodation for the trip both
ways which will presumably have to be mothballed in orbit, or someone left
behind to look after it there.

As the close distance only comes around every 2 years, I'd imagine that  its
going to be a long time till it actually happens, if at all, given the
fickle Government spending imperatives.

Brian


author: Vincent D. DeSimone

subject: Re: Ares

text:
I sometimes count myself lucky to have been born 3 months before the
beginning of the space age (Sputnik).  Its' been so much a part of my life.
I was 11 when Apollo 11 walked on the Moon and I watched all of the
moonwalks live.

I sometimes wonder if I'll be around to see us return to the Moon, thanks to
the changing whims of different administrations.  And the delays, and the
screw-up, and the cost overruns, and...  (Heck, slap the shuttle with some
hail, get a 3 month delay!)

I'm pretty sure that I won't get to see us walk on Mars...  I sometimes
think the Moon will be closer to 2030 than 2020 and Mars will be more like
2045.

But them, I am a pessimist.  ;-)


author: Jorge R. Frank

subject: Re: Ares

text:
[email] wrote in news:1177687314.281933.295720
@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

Yes.

No idea... it is strongly dependent on the overall mission architecture,
which has not yet been decided.

That we do know; Orion will be used as the return vehicle and it has a
maximum crew of six.


author: Brian Thorn

subject: Re: Ares

text:
On 27 Apr 2007 08:21:54 -0700, [email] wrote:

Edwards or Utah, I don't think a final decision has been made.

Try early 2030s at best. NASA is looking for the next human landing on
the _moon_ around 2020. Mars will be a decade after that, at least.

Due to Earth/Mars alignments, there are two major mission profiles in
contention. One gives the crew about 30 days on Mars. The other about
2 years. The 30-day stay is generally considered too short for
worthwhile surface activity (considering the huge expense of getting
there) but the 2-year stay is thought to be much higher risk of
equipment failures, etc. It will be a long time before a decision is
made.

Probably a crew of six.

Brian


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On Apr 27, 10:23?pm, Brian Thorn <[email]> wrote:

DOES ANYONE REALLY THINK NASA WILL GO TO MARS? Come on be real.....
with all their troubles its not going to happen:

They are more concerned with political pork than eploring(


subject: Re: Ares

text:
Thanks for the insight - I appreciate it.  Couple more questions:
Astronauts are weightless in space not because simply they are in
space, but because they're in an orbit, "falling" around the Earth.
On a journey to the Moon or Mars, are they weightless, or what? Surely
they're not walking around since there's no gravitaional influence..
but they're also not in a state of free-fall.. so, what would they be?

As for length of stay - for a first trip, 30 days does seem pretty
short, but 2 years way too long..
How long is the journey out and back? That has to be factored in as
well.
I'm sure length of journey and stay are serious issues not just for
the equipment, but for family as well.. "Bye my love, see you in 4
years..don't wait up!!" "Good luck with high school, son - I'll see
you when you're in finishing up and getting ready for college!"
I suupose they could take all-singles... 'course who knows what would
happen then! LOL ..Mars-sex..cool

On Apr 27, 11:46 pm, "[email]" <[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On May 1, 9:00 pm, "Steven L." <[email]> wrote:

If you discount microbes, the record still belongs to humans. Valeri
Polyakov - 437 days (678 total for 2 missions).
There were some tortoises on Soyuz20 that stayed up for 3 months.

The simplest solution to all these problems is *mass* - spinning
craft, shielding and all the redundancy you could wish for. Sadly,
right now, it's also prohibitively expensive.


author: Jeff Findley

subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Hyper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Actually we can, we just don't.

Jeff


author: JF Mezei

subject: Re: Ares

text:
Hyper wrote:

The space station is pretty close to an expedition ship, except for
shielding and additional cargo modules (shielded MPLMs) and fuel storage
and probably stronger engines. So when building such an expedition ship,
most the systems/designs of the current station could be re-used.

That Apollo capsule they want to build as a consolation prize for
retiring the shuttle isn't going to be a mainstay of a martian mission.
There might be one attached to the expedition ship as an escape pod, but
that is about it.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Hyper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

What you're describing is a Mars Cycler.  Essentially what you're reusing is
the part of the ship that's similar in purpose to a LEO space station.  The
US and Russia have been building and flying LEO space stations since the
1970's.

A Mars Cycler isn't beyond the state of the art in technology, it's just
that one has never been funded.  It certainly wouldn't be cheap to develop
and build since unlike LEO space stations, help is a lot further away, so a
few assumptions need to change.  Things like spare parts have to be on hand
at the beginning of the flight and you have to design a safe haven in the
thing to keep the crew alive during solar storms.

Exactly what makes you think we *can't* build such a spaceship?

Jeff


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Hyper" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It's obvious you don't fully understand the development needed to build a
Mars cycler.

Even NASA has a hard time deciding when it needs to do research and when it
needs to do development.  There were a lot of research dollars which where
blown under the space station freedom program when there was little need to
do so.  For example, a lot of money was spent on researching ultra high
frequency AC power distribution systems for SSF, but the whole thing was
eventually scrapped and ISS currently has a very conventional power
distribution system.  The ISS power distribution system required a lot of
development, but not so much research.

You don't need to do much research to build a Mars cycler, but you do need
to do a *lot* of development.  Aerobraking and nuclear propulsion would be
nice things to have, but aren't *required* to build a first generation Mars
cycler.  Most of the technology required to build a Mars cycler was proven
in the 60's and 70's by Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Centaur, Saturn V, and
Skylab.

The only thing lacking was the funding required.  The shuttle and space
station programs have gobbled up the available NASA manned space program
funding for the last three decades.

Jeff


subject: Re: Ares

text:
Hyper wrote:

Unless it is a reconnaissance mission which also tests out the epedition
ship and then brings it back to earth orbit for refueling, cleaning and
restocking after which it goes back for the long mission to mars.


author: Steven L.

subject: Re: Ares

text:
Brian Thorn wrote:

Have any life forms (even animals, let alone humans) ever been in space
for several years?

A Mars mission can easily last a year or more round-trip.  That's an
awfully long time for humans to be exposed to cosmic rays, solar flares,
the debilitating effects of microgravity, and (unique to humans) the
loneliness of being so far from home in the event of a major malfunction.

Solar flares, which aren't as critical in LEO, could be disastrous just
beyond the Earth-Moon orbit.


author: Danny Deger

subject: Re: Ares

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

There is the long trip and the short trip.  The short trip you spend about
30 days on Mars and come right back before the orbit get out of alignment.
On the long trip you spend, IIRC, about a year on Mars and wait for the
orbits to line up and come back.  IIRC round trip for the short trip is 18
months and the long trip maybe 3 years.  Anybody out there have better
numbers?

Danny Deger


subject: Re: Ares

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

On the way to and from Mars they're in orbit around the sun, so they're
experiencing microgravity during the trip.

Jeff


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"JF Mezei" <[email]> wrote in message
news:846db$464370af$cef8887a$[email]...

I think you would want something other than LiOX to scrub CO2 and you would
want to recycle the water.

Danny Deger


author: Derek Lyons

subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Jeff Findley" <[email]> wrote:

Building one isn't the problem.  Building one that will work for years
on end _is_.  It's not just a matter of spares for performing voyage
repairs, it's also a matter of being able to perform overhauls and
upgrades.

It's not nearly as simple as you might think.

D.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Jeff Findley" <[email]> wrote:

The conclusion does not follow from the premise Jeff.  What you are
missing is _why_ the earlier system was scrapped.  (I don't know
either.)  Simply because it eventually flew with a conventional system
is not evidence that the high frequency system was not required or
desired.

D.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Danny Deger" <[email]> wrote in message
news:46451e20$0$9897$[email]...


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Derek Lyons" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
snip

I agree with you 100%.  It is one thing to have your water or air systems
fail while in LEO, and quite another for them to fail on a trip to Mars.  I
am thinking you would want 3 of everything and crew survival assured if only
1 is operating.

Danny Deger


author: Herb Schaltegger

subject: Re: Ares

text:
On Tue, 15 May 2007 13:02:20 -0500, Derek Lyons wrote
(in article <[email]>):

I do - mass and development cost (which trickles down to every single
subsystem).  The gains in efficiency from high-frequency AC didn't outweigh
the development costs of designing everything to run on it rather than
aerospace-standard 28V DC, or the hugh efficiency losses and mass-hits which
would be incurred by providing a bunch of power-conditioning equipment to
step everything down to aerospace-standard specs.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:26:55 -0500, Jeff Findley wrote
(in article <40ea7$46489bde$927a2cda$[email]>):

The U.S. CDRA (Carbon Dioxide Removal Assembly) is a regenerative, multi-bed
unit that has both dessicant (drying) and molecular sieve sorbent (adsorbs
CO2) beds.  While half the unit is operating, the other half is drying out
the dessicant bed and venting the adsorbed CO2 to space through a vacuum vent
assembly located on the exterior of the Lab module endcone.


author: John Doe

subject: Re: Ares

text:
Danny Deger wrote:

That is why it is important to complete the station and operate it for a
while. This will give us MTBF and list of failing parts that would then
help stock an mars expedition ship with enough spare parts/systems to
last the trip.

It would also help redesigning the currently unreliable systems and test
them.


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Herb Schaltegger" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Those are some of the gory details that I remember reading about.  The early
research focus seemed to be on how much mass you'd save in cabling for the
power distribution system, but when the focus started to shift to early
design work for the entire system, all of the "boxes" needed to convert back
to 28V DC to actually *use* the power started to look problematic.  In other
words, the overall *system* design wasn't a net win, so it was scrapped.  I
was following this research program because, at the time, the EE department
at Purdue was doing some of the research and I was an Aerospace Engineering
student at Purdue at the time.

By no means was this the only area that money was wasted on the SSF program.
When that program started up, scientists proposed a lot of research that SSF
would "need" just to build the thing.  I think it was a budgetary disaster
to account for all of this research as part of the SSF program since it
helped to make the program look a lot more bloated to the outside world than
it should have looked.

It's my opinion that when you're building something like ISS or the new
exploration program, you should use as much existing technology as possible.
Leave research to be done *on* ISS or *on* the moon.  If you really think
you need to push crewed vehicle technology or launch vehicle technology,
then do that via X-vehicles and small test programs like Bigelow Aerospace
is doing with inflatable technology.  Once that technology is proven, only
then should you incorporate it into larger programs.

Jeff


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"Herb Schaltegger" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Sounds *very* similar to what I've read about Skylab's system...

Google turns up this PDF from 1973:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=908052&id=7&qs=No%3D50%26Ne%3D41%26N%3D223%2B4294967207
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730019216_1973019216.pdf

256 pages of detailed descriptions, diagrams, graphs, and FORTRAN code,
describing what goes on in one of these units.  Gotta love Google.  ;-)

Jeff


subject: Re: Ares

text:
"John Doe" <[email]> wrote in message
news:13997$464a49d1$cef8887a$[email]...

Yes, one of the main things we can get from station is use it as an
"engineering experiment".  Just learning how to operate complex system in
space for a long period of time is very useful data.  This was mostly what
the Russians were doing with Mir.  Very little science -- Mir itself was the
"science".

Danny Deger


subject: Re: Ares

text:
On Wed, 16 May 2007 08:48:48 -0500, Jeff Findley wrote
(in article <b6872$464b0bc0$927a2cda$[email]>):

I was following it because I was on the ECLSS design team for SSF and power
specs were, of course, a huge deal for everything.  28V DC is a pretty common
spec and it's easy to get valves, motors, transducers, etc., already
specified for it; all you have to do (and I'm understating but still . . .)
is get them qualified for the specific applications and environmental
requirements.  This is a generally-straightforward mechanical design
exercise.  Redesigning the electrical/electronic "guts" to use a novel power
spec adds another layer of complexity and cost that just wasn't worth it,
given how many little tiny pieces of powered hardware were involved.


author: Doc Holliday

subject: I Thought Joel Had More Sense

text:
REPLY:

Joel,

I really thought you had more sense.

I have spent more time in a synagogue than most Jews. I used to date a
Jewish young lady in dental school. Lets see, when I got married I had a
black, hispanic, and american indian in my wedding party I work with a
black, hispanic, and Iranian in my office....racist, really? While in
Vietnam, I was sure to check skin color or whether they were wearing a Star
of David before evac- give me a break.

You really need to go back and read the history of Israel's creation under
the Balfour Declaration. Gee, wasn't Menachem Begin implicated in the
bombing of the King David Hotel? and Ariel Sharon another 'commando'  (under
the current definition he would be considered a terrorist). Half the people
in Israel that are Jewish don't agree with the States policies towards the
Palestinian population.

I think it is pure cowardice to hide behind the color of your skin or
religion and even more henious to put a spin on history for your 'races'
benefit.

Actually, most of the time I walk, carpool, take the bus, or drive my 4 cyl.
Nissan.

RJL


author: Hans Lennros

subject: SV: I Thought Joel Had More Sense

text:
Doc Holliday wrote:

No Swedes? That's Discrimination !
Hans
=================================


subject: SV: I Thought Joel Had More Sense

text:
Doc Holliday wrote:

That's right. There are two sides among those living in Israel.
Recently I read a study that showed that the main common factor
between those on each side respectivley, is the level of education.

However anecdotal, it seems as if this is quite the opposite for
those living outside Israel (Jews aswell as Israelian Arabs).

Hans
==============================================


author: JT

subject: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
The Marine's are fielding a new camouflage pattern based on a computer
pattern with black and various shades of green. It is said to be a
more capable pattern then the current woodland pattern and the uniform
is made of new and better materials. Here's a small picture of it:
http://www.semperfinews.com/news/redesigns_camies.htm

Also CNN mentioned a new Marine's uniform that makes the soldier
nearly invisible in the field and they are applying for three patents.

Does anyone know if what CNN is talking about is the new uniform above
or something else?

-----JT-----


author: Paul J. Adam

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
In article <[email]>, Glenn Dowdy
<[email]> writes

No, according to one shiny-faced oik fresh from his health and safety
course, we were meant to leave the BFAs bright yellow, uncovered and
obvious to make it obvious that we had them fitted. Why this made anyone
"safer" was open to question.

Some H&S briefings were useful, others would have been lifesavers if
attended (we lost a member of one unit on an exercise, to a fire caused
by a missed safety brief) but that particular point was widely and
generally ignored - unless you wanted your ambush position to look like
a field of metallic daffodils.


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
[email] (JT) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I thought maybe what CNN was talking about (as opposed to the new
cammo uniform) is something like this article in Janes:
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/idr/idr011211_1_n.shtml

There is a new school of thought that is now focusing more on become
harder to detect so as to minimize weight. If you aren't even found to
begin with it means you won't even be hit, this can lighten the
equipment you need to protect your body.

-----JT-----


author: Lou Boyd

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
JT wrote:

How long will a soldier live if he thinks the pattern painted on his
BDU's is making him "nearly invisible".  Geez.....


author: Glenn Dowdy

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"JT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
I'm still laughing at the gung-ho riflemen with their sleeves rolled up and
no face camo.

Glenn D.


author: Doug and Kristy

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Must say from the small picture it looks a lot like the new Canadian CADPAT.

Doug Loader

"JT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Tom Schoene

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"JT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

That's the uniform.  I woudn't get too wworked up about the actual
camouflage ability of the new utilities: in most cases, pattern doesn't
matter much anyway.  Plain old Olive Drab would probably work almost as well
with some load-bearing gear to break up the sillouette.

Truth be told, the main reasons behind the new utilities are

1) improved fit and function under load-bearing gear and body armor (for
example, small chest pockets instead of the big patch pockets, and holders
for knee and elbow pads)

2) unique, non-Army appearance (the new uniform is Marine-only)

I leave it to the reader to guess which one was more important.


author: DeathBunny

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
For more information, especially changes :

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/utility/index.html


author: Nicholas Smid

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
JT wrote in message ...
As I understand it Como pattens are, A. Only realy effective when
you are still, or moving very slowly, and  B. Have a range limate
past which the eye can nolonger make out the fancy patten and sees
only the base colour, or some compramise there of, about 150m
maximum is a range I seem to recall. So there is some question
weather Camo gear is realy that effective of more a military fashon
statement, especuly as the load bearing straps tend to be one colour
and provide lots of nice lines to stand out.


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
In article <3c445cf2.12113808@News>, John Hairell <[email]>
writes

We were issued DPM (disruptive pattern material) combat suits, but often
we'd wear the plain green lightweight trousers meant for barracks work
along with the combat jacket. (They held less water and dried a lot
faster if you got rained on). Didn't make much difference, as far as I
could tell.

Who else had loops of elastic stitched all over their web gear to
facilitate camming up? (I also took a Magic Marker to it to break up the
plain green of the '58 Pattern canvas)

As John says, breaking up the outline and hiding obvious
non-conformances (cam cream for your face, and black tape over anything
shiny or bright - including, to the dismay of some safety-minded types,
the bright yellow blank-firing attachments of our rifles as well as our
cap badges) was the most important aspect, more so than quibbling about
the pattern of the uniform.

For a fair few later exercises in temperate weather, I wore tropical
lightweights: very brightly coloured when new, fade to an inconveniently
light shade with use. Still worked quite adequately, provided you paid
enough attention to the usual giveaways.

Yep, we did that, and more besides. Someone lighting a cigarette a mile
away. Someone digging a hole, four hundred yards away. Reading a map
with a torch, eight hundred yards away. Someone running with a
half-empty waterbottle at four hundred yards.

Being *told* it's not good, is one thing. Seeing and hearing for
yourself really rams it home just how acute your sight and hearing
become on a moonless quiet night in Sherwood Forest (this was at Proteus
Camp) and how important noise and light discipline can be.


author: Bcmhoover

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Ok I came into this a bit late.. anyone got pics of the Canadian and Swedish
camo patterns?

3 questions....first isn't tthe "digial" design on he new cammies supposdly
able to disrupt or confuse he new gen night vision an high power binoculars?
Second quesion...anyone remember the Swiss red camo suits? my teen daughter
wears a Swiss camo pants to school as a fashion statement!
third question....isn'tt the Greman camo Flecktarn the same as the old SS camo
from WW2? and don't he GSG units wear an updated version of the  whermacht
camo?

BCMHoover


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"Lou Boyd" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
I hear they're thinking about replacing the little hot sauce bottles in the
MREs with tequila miniatures to make him "bullet-proof" as a second step.

Glenn D.


author: Arved Sandstrom

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"Tom Schoene" <[email]> wrote in message
news:a1vv19$qkv$[email]...
well

Agreed...Canadian combat dress works better than woodlands and probably is
nearly as good as this new pattern. It's all about light reflectance - I
recall that people with brand-new woodlands stood out in almost all foliage
and light conditions. It's mostly not about colour at all (within reason).

You don't think getting away from the woodlands, which simply didn't work
that well as a pattern, isn't a fairly valid third reason? Although I agree
that the two reasons you mention certainly play a major part in the
decision.

At least it looks like they stuck with buttons. Good call. And all snuff
dippers will applaud those upper-sleeve pockets - very handy storage
location for a can. :-)

Arved Sandstrom


author: M

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Nicholas Smid >

Anything moving is much easier to spot anyway. It's more than
obvious that being difficult to spot is most significant for
a soldier when being still or moving slowly, too.

The size of the disruptive camouflage pattern relative to the
object size affects the effective range. Compare, eg, the
current Swedish uniform pattern to some of the current Russian
ones. Otoh, the German Flecktarn combines smaller and larger
disruptive pattern sizes in order to be effective at a wider
range of ranges.

At any rate, a camo pattern effective up to 150m can certainly
be most useful. Typically, modern infantry engagement ranges are
expected to be at most 200m or so. Consider the design of modern
assault rifles, for example. Of course, the typical engagement
ranges depend on the terrain etc, but the camo should optimaly
be chosen to match the actual conditions anyway.

Fashion statement or not, putting a camouflage pattern on
a uniform is simple and cheap. Moreover, a distinctive
pattern will also greatly aid visual IFF in good viewing
conditions.

Btw, one might note that disruptive pattern camouflage is
not at all a human invention, but that it has been "invented"
many, many times in the evolution of species in Nature.


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"Paul J. Adam" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Ours were red, and the green tape we used to cover them had the
distressing/amusing habit of catching fire under moderate use. I assume
that's the safety issue you're referring to?

Glenn D.


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
[email] (Bcmhoover) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Here is a nice link with pictures of the new CADPAT Canadian
Camouflage Pattern...to me this one looks even nicer than the Marine's
one.

http://www.army.dnd.ca/LF/equip/hab/projet_e.html

-----JT-----


author: Marcus Andersson

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
[email] (Bcmhoover) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Pics on the Swedish field uniform can be found here:
http://www.wendel.se/rswa/perseq.htm


author: Daniel Svensson

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
On 19 Jan 2002, Bcmhoover wrote:

I have found tree illustrative pictures of the Swedish camo pattern:

http://www.artreg.mil.se/photo.php?id=16530&nid=5514
- Jacket, front, indoor environment, sharp

http://www.artreg.mil.se/photo.php?id=13216&aid=3735
- Whole-length, profile, outdoor environment, slightly out of focus

http://www.artreg.mil.se/photo.php?id=531&aid=170
- Kneeling, profile, outdoor environment, sharp

I hope these are sufficient.

Daniel Svensson


author: Martin H. Booda

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
In article <[email]>,
Glenn Dowdy <[email]> wrote:
Hold on!  "Bullet-proof" and "invisible" are the last two of five steps (in
backwards order, too).  The first three steps are:

"Smart" - Well, since the new design seems to be steering away from the "Army-
  like" design, I guess they've given up on that.

"Good Looking" - Not available for E-5 through E-9.

"Rich" - Contractor use only.


author: Steve Bult

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Glenn Dowdy <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the
Based on my personal experience, this requires the liter bottles of tequila
;-)

Steve B.


author: Jeff Hill

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
It beats the heck out of the plain green fatigues
the U.S. Army issued me in Europe in 1969.  I
think we were the only army in Europe using
starched fatigues in plain solid OD color at that
time.

Glenn Dowdy wrote:


author: Urban Fredriksson

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
In article <[email]>, M  <*@*.*> wrote:

Which leads to an old thought of mine: Is it good if all
soldiers in a team wear similiar clothing, from a
camouflage standpoint?

If we take animals as an example, sometimes the first one
in a group can be hard to spot, but as soon as you see it
you quickly find 5 more and than rapidly 20 more and then
all of them.

I think it's at least possible that wearing somewhat less
than the optimum camouflage can be useful if you're part
of a group.

And if we take an enviroment like a city, then the
background can be so very different that it from that
standpoint could make some kind of sense to have different
camouflages in a squad.


author: Daniel Kekäläinen

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Brings an interesting question! What is your thoughts on the Swedish
camouflage pattern? Do you have facts too? Anything would be greatly
appreciated since I wore that uniform for almost a year. Would be nice
to know how it compares to other camouflage.

/Daniel


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"Steve Bult" <[email]> wrote in message
news:sLC18.242797$[email]...
computer
uniform
patents.
above
step.
tequila
You gots to save up. Hopefully, you get more meals than firefights.

Glenn D.


author: Robert Lyle

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:11:32 -0800, Jeff Hill <[email]>
wrote:

At over a certain distance (100 or 200 m at most) cammo does no better
than Olive green.  In fact, in grasslands, desert, or cities green
does better at a distance than Woodland cammo.  This is why the
Israelis still wear OG cotton, and why the US Army resisted going to
cammo until after Vietnam.

Remember in the '80s when everybody had heavy BDUs?  The Rangers were
allowed to wear OG cottonnin hot weather, and OG was cool.


author: Carl Alex Friis Nielsen

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Jeff Hill skrev i meddelelsen <[email]>...

The Danish Armed forces introduced the green M58 uniform
in 1958 and introduced the multicoloured M85 uniform in 1985.

Actually the green uniform worked quite well for blending into the
terrain.

--------------------------------------
Carl Alex Friis Nielsen

Love Me - take me as I think I am


subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
Jeff Hill wrote:

The Swedish army used "M-59" BDU until late 1980s/early nineties until
the "M-90" replaced it... Talk about modern.

/Daniel


author: Glenn Dowdy

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"Jeff Hill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Yeah, but the baseball hat was _so_ cool. I joined up just as BDUs were
brought in, thankfully.

Glenn D.


author: John Hairell

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:11:32 -0800, Jeff Hill <[email]>
wrote:

We were still issued the same cotton fatigues in my basic training in
1977.  At Ft. Knox they demonstrated how well they worked by having
somebody hide behind some small bushes or grass and we had to look for
them.  Turned out they were less than 5 feet from us lying behind some
grass about a foot tall and we never saw them at all.   The other
thing they demonstrated was a man standing about a quarter mile off
with a white T-shirt showing at the neck.  That was immediately
spottable.  As soon as the visible T-shirt neck area was covered the
man disappeared from view even though he stood out in the open with
bushes behind him.  He was very difficult to see (as long as he didn't
move) even though we knew exactly where to look.

It makes me wonder how valid and useful some of these woodland camo
patterns are.  I would think that breaking up an outline would be of
more importance.

Another demo we saw was of a cigarette being lit over a mile away on a
dark night.  That stood out like a lighthouse.

John Hairell ([email])


author: Karl M. Syring

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
"Urban Fredriksson" <[email]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a25uul$[email]...

You could issue spray cans for your troops. Of course, the dye should be
water-soluble. The application procedure may enhance the team spirit of your
squad.

No, but it is a good old military tradition.

That's  how the human brain works. But remember, even a hunting lion squad
will position some of it it's members in unexpected positions. Then, if the
prey does a sudden retreat away from the enemy it will get caught be the
waiting lurker.

Acquire your clothing from the locals you meet in public places. The side
effect of filling the streets with screaming people would provide a welcome
distraction.

Karl M. Syring


author: Richard Williams

subject: Re: New Marine's Camouflage

text:
in

Well, I don't have any combat experience, but I did survive the '70s, more
or less, and, if I remember right, a liter of tequila will give you a force
field (of sorts) that will last for about 36 hours, after which you will
probably need to be hosed down. <g>

rbw


author: Mark Robert Thorson

subject: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
The recent scare over electromagnetic fields emitted by power lines,
electric blankets, video monitors, etc. has me wondering about the units
used to measure these fields.

For example, the current issue of MacWorld has measurements taken around
an Apple color video monitor, which is said to be one of the worst offenders
in producing these fields.

All of these measurements are quoted in milligauss units.  Is this a correct
unit for measuring such fields?  I had thought that gauss is a unit for
measuring _static_ magnetic fields.

Also, the current issue of Omni (page 103) has an ad for an ELF measuring
device from Walker Scientific.  From the ad, you can see that this
instrument has an on/off switch and a three-digit LCD display.
Is ELF a correct term for describing these fields, which are mostly the
60 Hz fields generated by motors and transformers and the 60 Hz and 15.75
KHz fields generated by the deflection coils of CRT's?  I had thought
that ELF refers to a band of radio waves, i.e. a far field phenomenon.
The fields which have people so concerned appear to be a near field
phenomenon, in which the magnetic component vastly predominates over the
electric field.  Is it proper to apply radio terms to these fields?

What is the correct unit for reporting the strength of pulsating magnetic
fields?


author: Arnold G. Gill

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Mark Robert Thorson)
says:
     Gauss is the unit for measuring magnetic field strength in the
rationalized CGS system, as opposed to Tesla, which is the SI/MKS system for
magnetic field strength.  (Actually, definitions get confusing in the SI
system, as the magnetic field and magnetic intensity (B and H fields) use
different units - which is one reason CGS is preferred by some - electric and
magnetic fields all have the same units since they are the same thing seen from
a different perspective.)  The time variablility of the fields has nothing to
do with the choice of units.

     See above.
-------
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|  Arnold Gill                        |                                     |
|  Queen's University at Kingston     |     If I hadn't wanted it heard,    |
|  BITNET   : gilla@qucdn             |       I wouldn't have said it.      |
|  X-400    : [email]  |                                     |
|  INTERNET : [email]  |                                     |
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


author: siegman

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
Please, would sometime tell me why, in all the discussion over
Brodeur's claims of damage caused by ELF radiation from VDTs, there
seems to be no mention at all of ordinary TV?

After all, television sets and VDTs are essentially similar devices,
with overlapping technical specifications; TV has been omnipresent for
decades; children are reported to watch TV for, what, 20+ hours/week
on average; people sit with TV sets on their dinner tables night after
night.

Isn't ordinary television a massive, world-wide, decades-long
experimental test, totally disproving Brodeur's claims?


author: Dave Post

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
Siegman wonders:

Perhaps because it is endemic to our culture.  Nobody thought to think about
it.

No, actually, it does not.  40 years ago, the major behavior problems in
public schools were: talking, pushing in line, running in halls, and chewing
gum.

Now it is vandalism, drugs, assaults and rapes.

No.  I'm just kidding.  But I WAS tempted to leave it look serious.  :-)

David Post  [email]  hplabs!hpfcla!post


author: Allen J Michielsen

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (siegman) write
  Except for;
1. Most tv's have a shield (especially older ones) across the face that helps
to block stray & non desired electrons.  Monitors, generally don't have any
screen or pixel shield.
2. Tv's use a much lower scan rate & generate lower energy in that range.
3. It is very rare that users sit in front the tv screen 18 to 30 inches away.
4. Tv's in this country are tested, rated, and done my major mfg with liability
    insurance.  Many/most computer monitors are not tested or rated, if done,
    a lower class rating is o.k., as long as the mfg classifies it as a not
    a consumer item. Further, they are fly by nighters, how can anyone sue a
   fly by night or samnung without offices in the us, etc...
5. It might be better to believe that the emissions cause long term quality of
   life problems. And/or possibly MAY cause genetic damages that may not be
   observable for several generations.  By then, who knows what may be blamed
   wrongly.
al


author: John Moore

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (siegman) writes:
]Please, would sometime tell me why, in all the discussion over
]Brodeur's claims of damage caused by ELF radiation from VDTs, there
]seems to be no mention at all of ordinary TV?
]
]After all, television sets and VDTs are essentially similar devices,
]with overlapping technical specifications; TV has been omnipresent for
]decades; children are reported to watch TV for, what, 20+ hours/week
]on average; people sit with TV sets on their dinner tables night after
]night.
]
]Isn't ordinary television a massive, world-wide, decades-long
]experimental test, totally disproving Brodeur's claims?
No. Most people don't sit as close to TV as they do to VDT's. Brodeur's
claim is based on some good epidemiological studies (but not about
VDT's), backed up by some good (but very hard to explain) lab experiments.

If Brodeur were the one making the claims, I wouldn't pay any attention.
However, there is also evidence from responsible scientists.


author: Nichael Cramer

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
[email] (siegman) writes:

I don't know the "expert" answer, but it would seem to me one large
difference is distance and --in some cases-- amount of exposure.

I'm sitting here between two (one color, one B&W) large monitors, no more
than 30 inches from either one.  And I'll be right here for 40 hrs this
week (this is of course a bare minimum --it's not unheard of for it to be
twice this).  Moreover, I've been doing this for several years and will,
preseumably, be doing this for many years to come.

Even when I owned a TV, I was *never* that close.  And it was *very* seldom
that I watched it with that intensity even as a child.

N


author: John Sparks

subject: Re: EMF Radiation Kills !!!

text:
[email] (Allen J Michielsen) writes:

|1. Most tv's have a shield (especially older ones) across the face that helps
|to block stray & non desired electrons.  Monitors, generally don't have any
|screen or pixel shield.

You're talking about a shadow mask, and it is not to block stray electrons,
it's to guide the 3 color guns to the correct color phosphors. Monitors do have
these also.

|2. Tv's use a much lower scan rate & generate lower energy in that range.

er, this is nonsense. While it is true tv's generate lower scan rates, it is
just a frequency change not 'lower energy'.

|3. It is very rare that users sit in front the tv screen 18 to 30 inches away.

This is a good point.
|4. Tv's in this country are tested, rated, and done my major mfg with liability
|    insurance.  Many/most computer monitors are not tested or rated, if done,
|    a lower class rating is o.k., as long as the mfg classifies it as a not
|    a consumer item. Further, they are fly by nighters, how can anyone sue a
|   fly by night or samnung without offices in the us, etc...

You're nuts! Monitors are made to much more exacting standards than TV's are.
They have to be, they have much sharper images, and need much tighter controls
on the guns, smaller phosphors and shadow masks, etc. They must be FCC approved.

|5. It might be better to believe that the emissions cause long term quality of
|   life problems. And/or possibly MAY cause genetic damages that may not be
|   observable for several generations.  By then, who knows what may be blamed
|   wrongly.

This paragraph doesn't parse at all. In other words: "HUH???"