subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
roxan wrote:

2 lb diet aside, caloric comparisons would have to be like for like.

Per volume, cheese cake weighs much more than cream puff.

Which do you think has more calories?

Nonetheless, the point of the 2 lb diet is a change in quantity of the
foodstuffs you are accustomed to eating... of foodstuffs you can see yourslef
eating for the rest of your life...  If you are overweight from eating cream
puffs, reducing the amount of cream puffs you eat per the guidelines of the 2
lb diet will still help you lose weight...  ditto if you are overweight from
eating broccoli.  For this reason, the food industry will not be in any
position to thwart the 2 lb diet by offering food items specific for the
diet...  those food items have already been predetermined by someone's
cultural/ethnic background (see earlier discussion about comfort foods).


author: Michael Roose

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 06:12:31 GMT, "S. Peacock"
<[email]> wrote:

|Dr. Chung, this goes back to one of your earlier points of only 10
|pounds for a climber for a week at high altitude on Everest.  Will be
|glad to research what the ingredients were and the calorie per pound was
|for you and the other particulars.

I would much appreciate you doing so.

| For one thing, there was zero water
|in those pounds

Chung and I disagree here.  I think there must be some concession for
water in spaghetti, risotto and in smoothies.  He says no.

Sometimes Chung is a weird.  But the 2 pound diet is his simplistic
marvel so I defer to his brilliance :)


author: Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"S. Peacock" wrote:

2 lbs per day is 14 lbs which gives a 4 lbs margin for the water content.
Wrappings and containers only count toward the 2 lbs per day if you eat them
:-)

...  and works.  Thanks :-)


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 09:07:01 +0100, Paul
<[email]> wrote:

|Am I missing something here,

Yes.

|because even as a simple rule, "eat 2lb a
|day" sounds like it has no chance of working.

That's the beauty of it. It does in the face of its simplicity.  Paul,
we have all been sold a bill of goods about dieting through dieting
books.  How can yo expect the masses to obtain reasonable weight if
hey have to spend, educate and involve themselves in multi-100 page
books, recipes and chemistry?


author: Mxsmanic

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Paul" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message de news:
[email]...

Have you ever tried to eat two pounds of pure fat?

Large tubs of Pringles are not usually a part of a balanced diet.

It makes lots of sense if a person is eating a balanced diet.  If a person's
diet consists of pecans in melted butter, or if a person deliberately seeks
out high-calorie foods, I suppose it won't work.  But for people like that,
nothing will ever work, because they don't want to stop overeating.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Paul wrote:

In the context of food marketeers coming out with a 2 lb friendly snack
that would thwart the 2 lb diet, snack items that don't weigh very much
(only way to get past the scale) will not have that many calories...

One large tub of Pringles weighing in at 200 grams or nearly half a pound
is heavy.

You are missing the simple fact that overweight folks are eating easily
4-8 lbs of food per day.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Barbara wrote:

The reasons you gave were cheap food and cars everywhere.

Tabulate the calories of everything you eat or keep track of the weight...  your choice

Nothing wrong with that.


author: roxan

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
First it would be damn hard to be fat from eating too much broccoli since 2
cups of broccoli is only 50 calories and 1 small cream puff is 300 calories.
Your diet doesn't change what people eat or teach them how to eat good
healthy food. The 2 pound diet doesn't change long term eating habits toward
healthier food unless you eat low calories foods to start with. If someone
is eating 2 pounds of pizza as a staple in their diet and many do this,
isn't going to work. Changing a person's diet to a healthier one requires
you to learn what foods contain a lot of fats and carbs etc.and which ones
don't. If you are eating lots of green veggies and lean meat and watch your
portion sizes you don't even have to count calories and still lose weight.
Education is the key to losing and keeping the fat from coming back not 2
pounds of whatever you want to eat.
Roxan
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
yourslef
cream
the 2
from


author: S. Peacock

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
See above -- two posts.  Below is for e.g., Aconcaqua in South America.
But would work almost anywhere.

http://www.gearoom.com/expeditions_food.html

If you want more and finer detail, holler.  But I think you get the
idea.

A young man rode his bike (with all gear in a tote wagon) from (I
believe) the Netherlands to the base of Everest, then attempted a
summit.  After being defeated, and completely exhausted, he stayed at
base camp and consumed pounds (vast quantities, anyway, in anybody's
terms) of butter.  His second attempt -- within days, solo, was
successful.

He then returned to his bike and rode off back to his homeland.  I'd
give this guy the grand prize for climbing the entire mountain.  There
would certainly be fewer summits made in a year if we only counted a
successful ascent as one from your place of residence - personally
powered.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Michael Roose wrote:

Above all else... keep it extremely simple.

What people ultimately have to sense is the quantity they are eating...  no
one is able to sense calories.

Thanks :-)


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:

Lets take a look at a 'typical' 2 lb Everest mountaineer's diet. To
start, that 2 lbs will probably be about 4000-5000kcal.  A tad more than
what most would think comprises a '2 pound diet'.  It would not be
impossible to get an equivalent carbo load in 2 pounds of a chocolate
malt milk shake.  I'm sure, from reading your webpage, that you are not
encouraging a 5000kcal well balanced daily nutrition schedule.  So why
suggest it or even use it as an example.  It makes the rest smack of
junk science.

Climbers have an array of scientifically engineered foods and beverages
that are high in protein, calories, and electrolytes.  6 oz of freeze
dried food (about 900Kcal) such as AlpineAire (typical Everest food),
requires about 16oz of water to make into a palatable gruel that can be
consumed.  One only carries the carbo's and adds the water (hopefully
found enroute) to make it edible.  Your reference to 4 lbs margin for
water is a bit shy.

So if the team was eating (about) 2 lbs of freeze dried daily, that
would be equivalent to about 7 lbs of the kind of food you would find in
your normal DownHome Country casserole buffet line [ 32 original
weight+( ((32/6)# pints needed X 16oz per pint)/16oz per lb.) ] Of
course not all of that food will be water reconstituted carbo.  There
will be a good portion of it in fat.  Consider the calories needed to
support a routine climbing day of 6-12 hours covering 8 miles and 4,000'
altitude and return.  Strenuous in the sense that each foot, including
boot, covering, and crampon would weigh a little over 5 pounds. The 'day
pack' including oxygen (perhaps) and support equipment -- about 30 lbs,
minimum.  Each step requires a complete breathing cycle.  HR will be
over 150 most of the day.

Below is typical fare at about 16,760 feet -- an elevation supportable
by vehicle -- not a lot of climbing going on yet -- just acclimatization
and light hiking.

Dinner: spaghetti, salads, soups, moo-moos (which is a Nepalese
dish--kind of a steamed dumpling), vegetables, potato pancakes, et
cetera. Lunch: French fries, grilled cheese, tomato soup, slaw.

Advanced Base Camp (ABC) 6,350 meters, 20,828 feet. Low temps -10C. High
3C. Winds calm. Now every day is an exertion day to a higher altitude.

"Life in ABC is okay. Food is decent to poor, although Dendy, our ABC
cook, surprised us the other night with an egg roll-type-thing
(laughter) - I know that doesn't sound very appetizing but it was very
tasty--we all gobbled them up. Breakfast is usually porridge followed by
toast and eggs. Lunch is some type of bread, flash pastry, a vegetable
or potato dish, and cheese. Dinner is soup with prawn chips or popcorn
followed by a pasta dish, cauliflower, maybe moo-moos, hot dogs, or
Spam, and then desserts, which is usually a warmed canned fruit cocktail
or this fruit mush I've taken to calling yak mucous".

************

A well funded and organized assault includes resupply by non climbing
team members.  This means that assault members only have to carry
personal gear and not support gear. This is a major savings in calorie
requirements.  Several teams have found MRE (US Military Meals Ready to
Eat) convenient and quick - albeit heavy.  One must consider that a
typical day of climbing would include up to 12 hours of strenuous work
over perhaps 15 miles and a total altitude gain of 4,000'.  This can
result in a 4000 to 8000kcal requirement.  On a good day at very high
altitude a climber may be able to consume (and retain) perhaps 2000Kcal

Above 7500M a major endeavor of some climbers is to keep from vomiting.
There is appetite loss as well as sleep deprivation.  The amount of food
that is consumed (or kept down) is mainly for survival.  It is probable
that 2 lbs a day would be much more than many could keep down.  I think
it a bit erroneous to imply that this was a 'good' or 'complete' diet
that your Mr. Average Mountaineer would be able to survive on over an
extended period.

Below is a link for a typical list (2 lb day here) on a lower mountain.
Aconcqua is about 9,000' shy of Everest and is considered an
'intermediate' in effort.

http://www.gearoom.com/expeditions_food.html

Yep, its two pounds, but I think it a bit ingenuous to compare it to the
diet you are suggesting to loose weight.  If they could eat more than
that amount these guys are still going to loose significant tissue.

***********

And later, down in civilization after summiting Everest:

"Well, the first night we were back we all went to the famed Everest
Steakhouse. And we feasted. Everyone (except Talli) had MEAT (steaks).
Masaru and I split a 6 pound Chateau Briand... I ate all of my half."

Seems to me that the intent of what you reference from the IMAX feature
is being a bit misconstrued in bolstering the foundation or reason for a
typical diet of Mr. and Mrs. Suburbanite.  It is the equivalent of
saying that a starving Hotentot can live on 1/4 cup of rice per day and
no more than 20gms of additional fish protein a week for years. So
should you.  Above 7500m, a mountaineer, too, is dying of starvation.

Using that 2 pounder on Everest as an example diet is like comparing
coconuts and cannonballs with the eating plan that you are supporting.
I'd drop it from your web page or explain it in an attachment, that,
just by happenstance that same number popped up as the amount of food an
Everest mountaineer was able to keep from upchucking.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Michael Roose" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message
de news: [email]...

I question whether the masses really want to lose weight or not.  It seems
like they'd rather pretend and go through the motions, while deliberately
ignoring the one sine qua non of weight loss--namely, abstention from
overeating.


author: Paul

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 08:59:46 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

No, I haven't.  Maybe you don't understand the word 'theoretical'?

Why not? (Once you pop you can't stop) These and other foodstuffs are
big sellers in Western diets.  And anyways what's this got to do with
what the original poster said (I notice that you snipped that).

So another diet where you don't have to count calories to lose weight
turns out that you do.  Again what has this to do with the original
post? - let me remind you what that was.

On Sat, 25 May 2002 23:57:57 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

Paul.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

However, some people will occasionally ingest a can of Pringles while sitting in
front of the TV.  With the 2 lb diet, this is not a deadly sin... you pay for it
by not allowing yourself to eat as much for the rest of the day in order to stay
under 2 lbs.

Actually, if they are overweight, they probably are still eating 4-6 lbs of this
stuff... so moderating it to 2 lbs would still work.

One lead a horse to water but not make it drink.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
roxan wrote:

Don't forget the cheese that most folks put on that broccoli for "flavor"

If it has 300 calories, it is not "small" weighing in at more than 40 grams (or
2 ozs).

Because changing what people eat fails 95% to help people lose weight.

too much "healthy" food is bad for you.

Because the goal of the 2 pound diet is to lose weight which for someone who is
more than 100 lbs over their ideal body weight should be priority.

Lets have a show of hands for the number of folks out there who are overweight
from eating only 2 lbs of pizza every day.

Getting someone to lose weight requires making someone aware of their excessive
intake... this won't happen if they have been overwhelmed with computing
percentages fats, carbs, protein, and/or fiber.

If you are eating *lots* of healthy foods, you will be gaining rather than
losing weight.

Education has failed to help folks lose weight.  Obesity afflicts educated and
uneducated alike.

The 2 lb diet has worked for all who are on it...  so far I have not heard of
anyone who has felt that they would not be able to stick with moderating their
intake to 2 lbs for the rest of their lives so I am encouraged assert that their
weight losses should be permanent.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"roxan" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message de news:
RgaI8.20196$[email]...

Why not?  Two pounds of pizza a day doesn't add up to much in itself.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"S. Peacock" wrote:

The 2 lb diet concept arose from observations about the weight of food consumed by
energetic people who probably are at the highest extreme of energy expenditure.
They consumed 10 lbs of food per week.  The number of calories consumed was ignored
because:

(1) That information was not given.

(2) Counting calories has failed miserably in helping people lose weight.

It does not matter.  It has not mattered.  *Everyone* who has tried the 2 lb diet
has been able to both lose weight and stay on this lifestyle plan.

Actually 1.42 lbs of food per day.

At most, the caloric density is twice (8 cal/gram) that of ordinary food like bread
(4 cal/gram)... i.e. 2.84 lbs of bread

The maximal sustainable increase in metabolic rate is only 2 to 2.5 times basal
metabolic rate.

No comparison made.  It is simply how the idea of the 2 lb diet arose.

Have any died of starvation?

I think you are referring to the quarter pound diet.

Again, any reported cases of a mountaineer dying of starvation from eating his
daily 2 lb rations ?

Both are spherical in shape.

You would drop it.  Speaking of coconuts and cannonballs... do I look like you ?


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Peacock, thanks for the time and effort here.

MR

==============================================

On Mon, 27 May 2002 03:11:32 GMT, "S. Peacock"
<[email]> wrote:

|"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
|>
|> "S. Peacock" wrote:
|>
|> > >
|> > > If it is high calorie, it won't be light weight.
|> > >
|> > Dr. Chung, this goes back to one of your earlier points of only 10
|> > pounds for a climber for a week at high altitude on Everest.  Will be
|> > glad to research what the ingredients were and the calorie per pound was
|> > for you and the other particulars.  For one thing, there was zero water
|> > in those pounds -- and absolutely minimum wrapping or containers.
|> >
|>
|> 2 lbs per day is 14 lbs which gives a 4 lbs margin for the water content.
|> Wrappings and containers only count toward the 2 lbs per day if you eat them.
|
|
|Lets take a look at a 'typical' 2 lb Everest mountaineer's diet. To
|start, that 2 lbs will probably be about 4000-5000kcal.  A tad more than
|what most would think comprises a '2 pound diet'.  It would not be
|impossible to get an equivalent carbo load in 2 pounds of a chocolate
|malt milk shake.  I'm sure, from reading your webpage, that you are not
|encouraging a 5000kcal well balanced daily nutrition schedule.  So why
|suggest it or even use it as an example.  It makes the rest smack of
|junk science.
|
|Climbers have an array of scientifically engineered foods and beverages
|that are high in protein, calories, and electrolytes.  6 oz of freeze
|dried food (about 900Kcal) such as AlpineAire (typical Everest food),
|requires about 16oz of water to make into a palatable gruel that can be
|consumed.  One only carries the carbo's and adds the water (hopefully
|found enroute) to make it edible.  Your reference to 4 lbs margin for
|water is a bit shy.
|
|So if the team was eating (about) 2 lbs of freeze dried daily, that
|would be equivalent to about 7 lbs of the kind of food you would find in
|your normal DownHome Country casserole buffet line [ 32 original
|weight+( ((32/6)# pints needed X 16oz per pint)/16oz per lb.) ] Of
|course not all of that food will be water reconstituted carbo.  There
|will be a good portion of it in fat.  Consider the calories needed to
|support a routine climbing day of 6-12 hours covering 8 miles and 4,000'
|altitude and return.  Strenuous in the sense that each foot, including
|boot, covering, and crampon would weigh a little over 5 pounds. The 'day
|pack' including oxygen (perhaps) and support equipment -- about 30 lbs,
|minimum.  Each step requires a complete breathing cycle.  HR will be
|over 150 most of the day.
|
|Below is typical fare at about 16,760 feet -- an elevation supportable
|by vehicle -- not a lot of climbing going on yet -- just acclimatization
|and light hiking.
|
|Dinner: spaghetti, salads, soups, moo-moos (which is a Nepalese
|dish--kind of a steamed dumpling), vegetables, potato pancakes, et
|cetera. Lunch: French fries, grilled cheese, tomato soup, slaw.
|
|Advanced Base Camp (ABC) 6,350 meters, 20,828 feet. Low temps -10C. High
|3C. Winds calm. Now every day is an exertion day to a higher altitude.
|
|"Life in ABC is okay. Food is decent to poor, although Dendy, our ABC
|cook, surprised us the other night with an egg roll-type-thing
|(laughter) - I know that doesn't sound very appetizing but it was very
|tasty--we all gobbled them up. Breakfast is usually porridge followed by
|toast and eggs. Lunch is some type of bread, flash pastry, a vegetable
|or potato dish, and cheese. Dinner is soup with prawn chips or popcorn
|followed by a pasta dish, cauliflower, maybe moo-moos, hot dogs, or
|Spam, and then desserts, which is usually a warmed canned fruit cocktail
|or this fruit mush I've taken to calling yak mucous".
|
|************
|
|A well funded and organized assault includes resupply by non climbing
|team members.  This means that assault members only have to carry
|personal gear and not support gear. This is a major savings in calorie
|requirements.  Several teams have found MRE (US Military Meals Ready to
|Eat) convenient and quick - albeit heavy.  One must consider that a
|typical day of climbing would include up to 12 hours of strenuous work
|over perhaps 15 miles and a total altitude gain of 4,000'.  This can
|result in a 4000 to 8000kcal requirement.  On a good day at very high
|altitude a climber may be able to consume (and retain) perhaps 2000Kcal
|
|Above 7500M a major endeavor of some climbers is to keep from vomiting.
|There is appetite loss as well as sleep deprivation.  The amount of food
|that is consumed (or kept down) is mainly for survival.  It is probable
|that 2 lbs a day would be much more than many could keep down.  I think
|it a bit erroneous to imply that this was a 'good' or 'complete' diet
|that your Mr. Average Mountaineer would be able to survive on over an
|extended period.
|
|Below is a link for a typical list (2 lb day here) on a lower mountain.
|Aconcqua is about 9,000' shy of Everest and is considered an
|'intermediate' in effort.
|
|http://www.gearoom.com/expeditions_food.html
|
|Yep, its two pounds, but I think it a bit ingenuous to compare it to the
|diet you are suggesting to loose weight.  If they could eat more than
|that amount these guys are still going to loose significant tissue.
|
|***********
|
|And later, down in civilization after summiting Everest:
|
|"Well, the first night we were back we all went to the famed Everest
|Steakhouse. And we feasted. Everyone (except Talli) had MEAT (steaks).
|Masaru and I split a 6 pound Chateau Briand... I ate all of my half."
|
|Seems to me that the intent of what you reference from the IMAX feature
|is being a bit misconstrued in bolstering the foundation or reason for a
|typical diet of Mr. and Mrs. Suburbanite.  It is the equivalent of
|saying that a starving Hotentot can live on 1/4 cup of rice per day and
|no more than 20gms of additional fish protein a week for years. So
|should you.  Above 7500m, a mountaineer, too, is dying of starvation.
|
|Using that 2 pounder on Everest as an example diet is like comparing
|coconuts and cannonballs with the eating plan that you are supporting.
|I'd drop it from your web page or explain it in an attachment, that,
|just by happenstance that same number popped up as the amount of food an
|Everest mountaineer was able to keep from upchucking.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

The masses are all liars.. eh?

Funny that they seem able to moderate their intake when they become a 2
pounder.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 09:02:43 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

|> How can yo expect the masses to obtain
|> reasonable weight if hey have to spend,
|> educate and involve themselves in multi-100
|> page books, recipes and chemistry?
|
|I question whether the masses really want to lose weight or not.

I don't question that at all. I find everyone wants to reach an ideal
bwt if for no other reason that they look sexier.

| It seems
|like they'd rather pretend and go through the motions, while deliberately
|ignoring the one sine qua non of weight loss--namely, abstention from
|overeating.

Execution and desire are not the same.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Paul" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message de news:
[email]...

I understand the word.  However, something that is theoretically possible,
but nevertheless woefully impractical, is not relevant to a discussion of
the practicality of a concept.

Because they provide a very narrow range of nutrients, and more calories
than are really necessary for most people.  A balanced diet includes many
different types of foods, or at least foods engineered to provide all
necessary nutrients in all the right proportions.

Judging from the prevalence of obesity in Western societies, particularly
the U.S., their diets are not good examples to follow.

Yes.  Ultimately you must count calories to lose weight, by one means or
another.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 16:18:49 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

A good medley of broccoli, cauliflower, and summer squash with some of
that (almost) zero calorie butter spray and salt/pepper is quite
palatable and you can eat a metric assload of it without consuming
many calories. Even if you stir fry the medley in a tablespoon of
olive oil or ghee, you aren't adding that many calories.

Add 4-8 ounces of your favorite lean meat (or tofu) and you have a
damn good meal that would fit in with both the low fat and low carb
WOEs (two pounders would probably have to limit the veggies though)


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
I don't put cheese or anything on my broccoli since I know how much cheese
adds to the calories. The point is, I know that to start with and those who
know little about nutrition and doing the 2 pound diet with little knowledge
of food would still eat too many calories unless they are 400 pounds and eat
a lot of calories to start with.  But for the person who doesn't have that
much weight to lose in the first place this probably wouldn't work for them.
The bottom line is you still have to educate yourself about food and
nutrition since most are not going to weigh their food for the rest of their
lives just as most won't count calories the rest of their life either.
Roxan
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
since 2
grams (or
who is
overweight
ones
excessive
weight.
2
and
of
their
their


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Not sure.  You good lookin' too? :^)

OT:  You really sure about?

"The maximal sustainable increase in metabolic rate is only 2 to 2.5
times basal
metabolic rate."

I know a few individuals who must have had their basal miscalculated by
a physician.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
(1) Come on doc.  You can figure out those guys were not just laying
around.  If they were just hiking up a hill quickly they'd burn around
400/hour.

I would probably agree with (2).

I don't argue with your diet - I believe you it works.  I'm just making
the statement that a 2 pound (all right 1.42#) per diem mountaineers
diet is not the same thing.

Looking at a (random) meal package right now that has it rated at
140Kcal/oz about 4+/gm.  So those guys were looking at around
3200-5600Kcal/day.  Were they loosing weight?  You betcha, at the rate
of about 2000-3000Kcal/day deficit.  But I don't think their goal was
loosing weight.  The plan was to provide the absolute minimum required
to assist them in trying to beat all odds. It is a game of tradeoffs and
risks.  It is a closely maintained race to get to a top and return just
short of expiring -- insuring just enough muscle mass remaining to get
down to a 'safe' haven.  Will they starve to death?  In 7 days?  Of
course not. I don't know of any fit, healthy human that can starve to
death in a week. Most (recent) mountaineering deaths I know of are not
caused by starvation.  Cold, altitude, avalanche and sudden stops claim
most. Individual 'energy level' could be associated or a contributing
factor with all four.

I'm not sure there are many physicians that would consider it wise to
continue on that diet, at that altitude, with the inherent risks, at
that level of exertion.  The main reason they only had 10 pounds?
Probably that was all they had figured they could carry.  That's too
convenient a number.

But 2# a day down here?  Of 'normal' food?  Moderate temperatures?
Relatively active couch potato?  Even including the salad bar?

Piece o' cake.


author: Tiger Lily

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
lol........ Michael Roose missed your post the first time
let me copy it........... ROTFLMAO!

"Michael Roose" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
was
water
content.
them.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le
message de news: [email]...

The fat masses are, to a large extent.

Only if they actually stick to the diet.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 15:45:46 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

|Yes.  Ultimately you must count calories to lose weight, by one means or
|another.

Nope.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 15:45:46 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

Oh, I thought that people become overweight by eating too much, not
because they follow one particular diet or another. Wasn't it you that
said that it doesn't matter what kind of foods one eats?

Define "counting calories". I define it by reading every food label
and journaling every damn thing you stick in your mouth. Certainly
some people must do that but don't say that nobody has ever lost
weight simply by making better food and portion choices. Other people
have lost weight by changing the macronutrient content of their diet
which leads them to eat below maintenance by default. Low carb diets
do that for many people. (but not all. I get poo poo'd on when I
suggest that if one is stalled, calories should be the first thing
they consider, not the last)

Also, if I understand it correctly, two pound dieters don't count
calories. They just weigh anything they consume that has a non
negligible calorie value.


author: J. B. Rainsberger

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
[email] wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I haven't laughed this hard in a while. Two questions:

* How much is a metric assload in, say, kilograms (tons?)
* How much is the imperial assload, by comparison?

Thanks, as I wipe a tear from laughter...

---
jbrains
240/233/165
Wondering whether he already eats < 2 lbs per day. Hmm....


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
[email] wrote:

The problem with eating an a$$load of anything even if low in calories is that you
better be able to stick with eating just that for the rest of your life because as
soon as you slip up and start eating the same amount of things more dense in
calories, you will regain all that you have lost remarkably fast.  This is the
fundamental problem with calorie counting as a means of moderating caloric intake.

Two pounders would know that there are long-term consequences to allowing the body
to grow accustomed to eating lots of anything even if they are low calorie foods.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
roxan wrote:

...which defines the majority of folks in the U.S.

Actually, I would estimate that obese folks following the 2 lb diet would eat
about a third of the amount they usually eat.  This will result in significant
weight loss that will bring someone down to very near ideal body weight.

It has worked for me to lose 10 lbs which I have kept off for 4 years.  It has
worked for others like me who were only mildly overweight.

Depends on whether they are eating more than 2 lbs of food per day.

I used to believe that as the rest of the medical community still does but
seeing folks lose weight with lasting results on the 2 lb diet tells me that
your "bottom line" is a myth.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Michael Roose" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message
de news: [email]...

I do not find this argument persuasive.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
[email] wrote:

You are correct.

You are again correct.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
<[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message de news:
[email]...

They do.

It doesn't matter what kind of food one eats if calories are held constant.
However, if calories are controlled only by weighing food, then the number
of calories one consumes is a function of the calorie content of the food
per unit weight, and so the type of food influences the number of calories
consumed ... particularly if the weight of the food is held constant.

You must keep track of how many calories you consume, and how many you burn,
and take care to eat less than you burn.

That's how I do it.  There are other, less accurate, but more convenient
ways of doing it as well.  The two-pound diet appears to be one such way.

Nobody loses weight without reducing calories and/or increasing exercise.
How they achieve either of these necessary objectives is irrelevant.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le
message de news: [email]...

Your two-pound diet amounts to exactly that.


author: M'isa

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet (Warning: Profanity!)

text:
An imperial assload is a little more than a metric assload, which is far
less than afuckofalot.

~M'isa


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"J. B. Rainsberger" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message de
news: [email]...

20.45 kg

A commonly used unit is the kilo-assload, or Kass.  The AMA uses
one-thousandth of this in certain studies of food consumption and designates
their use with the prefix mAMA, so it's not unusual to see mAMA Kass
mentioned in discussions of obesity.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 10:55:31 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

|Two pounders would know that there are long-term consequences to allowing the body
|to grow accustomed to eating lots of anything even if they are low calorie foods.

I have even started reducing my water intake since a pound of water is
still a pound of water and I can put 3 liters away before it is
absorbed.  I am not certain what the mechanisms are to the adjustment
to two pounds of food daily but I feel, imcase, that the stomach
adjusts to being okay with less volume and I get the feeling that
adjustment was being compromised by massive water intake.


author: Barbara

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Dr Chung, it occurs to me that your patients are, de facto, a
specialised sub-group. They are seeing you because they have cardiac
problems.... and it's generally recognised that when people have a
pressing medical reason to change (be it lose weight, stop smoking),
they are more successful than the average person. The success rate of
the 2lb diet would probably be lower if you looked at a group of
people with no medical issues other than their obesity.

In my own case, I have become rather more successful at avoiding
weight rebound since I was diagnosed with diabetes.... and even more
so since I got the first signs of retinopathy. The change is
compounded by the fact that I had been having treatment for binge
eating before my diabetes was diagnosed.... I have no doubt that
controlling my binge eating was a necessary condition for being able
to follow any sort of eating plan. But even so, diabetes - and
especially the appearance of the first sign of complications - is a
powerful reminder to me that the risks of non-adherence are not just
theoretical.

Barbara


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

Someone wrote a while back about needing that "ounce of ..."


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

The only prerequisite is that someone is eating more than 2 lbs of food per day
at baseline.  Balanced (whatever that means) diet not required.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 21:09:49 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

|You must keep track of how many calories you consume, and how many you burn,
|and take care to eat less than you burn.

There are huge problems with this concept. For instance, how does one
truly determine, in a varied lifestyle, especially if aerobic and
anaerobic exercise is considered, what one burns?\

and who the hell wants to spend an hour a day trying to figure out
calories in (exactly) and calories out (inexactly)?


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

Not *exactly*.  The 2 lb diet is to calorie counting as throwing a rock
is to launching a rocket into orbit.  If your goal is to get an object to
move through the air, go with the simpler less costly (in terms of time
and money) approach... it will be more of a sure thing.


author: Ron Ritzman

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Fri, 31 May 2002 21:49:12 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]> wrote:

So does that mean that no one's getting fat except those who eat mAMA Kass?


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Barbara wrote:

Perhaps.  However, before the two pound diet, my success rate with getting my patients to lose weight was comparable
to that reported for the general population  (ie less than 5% rate with any significant weight loss).

It is.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Sun, 26 May 2002 19:58:36 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

As far as I can tell "balanced" means that you are getting the proper
number of daily servings from something the USDA calls "food groups".


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le
message de news: [email]...

That would also work, as long as the composition of the diet is constant.
Obviously, if the composition of the diet does not change, and if the person
is initially eating more than two pounds of food per day and maintaining
weight that way, then eating only two pounds a day _must_ produce weight
loss.

Why don't you just call it the kilogram diet?  It sounds more modern.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Michael Roose" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message
de news: [email]...

Are there?  It always works, no exceptions.

By using the mountains of available data on such things to prepare
estimates, then by empirically tuning these to arrive at accurate figures.

It takes me only a couple of minutes.  Anyone who can't find the discipline
for that probably can't find the discipline to stop overeating, either.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Michael Roose wrote:

At least an hour and then come to realize that you probably did not even come
close to estimating the correct number of calories either way.


author: TdN

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Ron Ritzman <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I am now officially placing my name in nomination for the Presidency
of the Ron Ritzman Fan Club.  I'll be happy to take questions from the
press now...

T.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
[email] wrote:

*cringe*

Have you ever wondered where the "food pyramid" came from ?


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

I'll change the name when folks in my community start reporting their weights to
me in kgs :-)


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 08:56:45 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

|Why don't you just call it the kilogram diet?  It sounds more modern.

Chung will make mega-Euros with the Two Kilo Diet.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

mountains, eh ?

Sounds like you already have invested hours already to climb those mountains of
data and not to mention the investment in that bomb calorimeter that you needed
to empirically tune this data so that you can reliably get accurate figures.

Funny...  the two pounders have all stopped overeating... they are also
laughing at the amount of time you continue to spend on counting calories.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 09:04:38 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

|> For instance, how does one truly determine,
|> in a varied lifestyle, especially if aerobic and
|> anaerobic exercise is considered, what one burns?
|
|By using the mountains of available data on such things to prepare
|estimates, then by empirically tuning these to arrive at accurate figures.

I haven't seen any mountains of it and the hills of data all point to
their inability to conclusively determine the variance factors in
individuals of so many different metabolic capacities, sizes, weights
genetic potential.

At best you might find end points but these would be so broad as to be
practically worthless.

|> and who the hell wants to spend an hour a
|> day trying to figure out calories in (exactly)
|> and calories out (inexactly)?
|
|It takes me only a couple of minutes.  Anyone who can't find the discipline
|for that probably can't find the discipline to stop overeating, either.

If you v=can assimilate, calculate and apply those mountains of data
in a couple of minutes, more power to you. However, don't kid yourself
about their accuracy or the correlation between journaling and
overeating disciplines.  There are none.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 11:16:26 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

Umn, straight from the grain and processed food lobbies to my 10 year
old nephew's homework book.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 11:16:26 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

|*cringe*
|
|Have you ever wondered where the "food pyramid" came from ?

Egypt?


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le
message de news: [email]...

It takes me far less time to count calories than it would for me to weigh
everything I eat, and the results are more accurate.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
[email] wrote:

Perhaps if we exported that to Europe, we would start seeing more obesity
overseas as well ;-)


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
Mxsmanic wrote:

It takes me all of one second to read the food scale.  It takes you minutes
to count calories.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 12:51:24 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email]> wrote:

|It takes me all of one second to read the food scale.  It takes you minutes
|to count calories.

and the count is highly suspect to accuracy.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le
message de news: [email]...

I just read the figure on the package and put that into my spreadsheet.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Michael Roose" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message
de news: [email]...

Do manufacturers of foods routinely lie in their nutrition data?


author: Lynne

subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Mon, 27 May 2002 22:53:24 GMT, "Mxsmanic" <[email]>
wrote:

yes


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Tue, 28 May 2002 10:04:29 GMT, [email] (Lynne) wrote:

I know some labels have been inaccurate when it comes to the macronutrient
breakdown (hidden carbs) so it wouldn't surprise me if "calories" was
sometimes wrong too.


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
"Lynne" <[email]> a ï¿½crit dans le message de news:
[email]...

Examples?


subject: Re: Re; The Two Pound diet

text:
On Tue, 28 May 2002 07:51:33 -0400, Ron Ritzman
<[email]> wrote:

|I know some labels have been inaccurate when it comes to the macronutrient
|breakdown (hidden carbs) so it wouldn't surprise me if "calories" was
|sometimes wrong too.

A following question would be is it done fraudulently. I believe it
most certainly is.


author: rveloso

subject: Computing 22k x 22k matrix eigen values

text:
Hi all, I wonder if you can give me some suggestion on how to compute
the eigen values/vectors of a 22k * 22k matrix. The matrix only has 0's
and 1's and is symmetric, i.e. A(x,y) = A(y,x).
Free software/ optimal techiques to solve this are appreciated. Thanks!

rveloso


subject: Re: Computing 22k x 22k matrix eigen values

text:
For the eigenvalues I suggest running Lanczos in exact
arithmetic to completion.   There was a group doing
similar computations in a classified project. The largest 0-1
matrix was order 16M  and exact Lanczos was run
through finish.  They had a big machine though :-)


text:
o.k.

Yes, exact integer arithmetic with 2^n scalings.  Matrix known only
as product Ax.  Nonzero entries (actually -1,+1) about 100/row.
Picture perfect for Lanczos if reorthogonalization is skipped
hence exact arithmetic. Tridiag converted to quad float when done,
all 16M eigenvalues extracted.  No eigenvectors needed, I think.


author: Peter Spellucci

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "rveloso" <[email]> writes:

there exist lots of books dealing the eigenvalues of adjacency matrices, but as
far as it goes to the numeric computation, there will be little help.
you might try some iterative methods which are not based on exact matrix
decompositions, like Lanczos or the other Krylow subspace based methods
(like the new one of Golub and Ye). if your matrix is very sparse you might
be successful in getting a sparse preconditioner for these methods
which speed up the iteration. but if you intend to get the full spectrum,
this will become a very hard job, since storage of the eigenvector matrix
which will be full in general will require already almost 4GB, the total
computing effort will be approx 16*n^3= 170368000000000 flops
and since in this case the permanent cache failures will slow down the CPU
this will last several weeks on a modern workstation
(data concerning tridiagonal QR with Wilkinson-shift)
hth
peter


author: Sudarshan Raghunathan

text:
Have you considered PARPACK
(http://www.caam.rice.edu/~kristyn/parpack_home.html)? It works in
parallel and only requires you to implement the matrix-vector product
routine using reverse communication - you might not even require
representing the matrix explicitly.

I presume you require only some of the eigenpairs


text:
see:
http://www.mathworks.com/company/newsletters/news_notes/clevescorner/oct02_cleve.html


author: bencteux

text:
I confirm the point of P. Spelluci. See for example the introduction of
the following paper :
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0511057,
about the eigen-decomposition issue in the field of quantum chemistry.
Guy Bencteux


text:
In article <[email]>,
 [email] writes:
   exact arithmetic? you mean indeed integer arithmetic,
   then computing the eigenvalues of the tridiagonal matrix numerically?
   special version avoiding the normalization
   o.k.
   but what about the eigenvectors..
   i still hope he wants only some ...
hth
peter


author: NoIdea

text:
"Peter Spellucci" <[email]> wrote in
message news:e0qs58$epp$[email]...
but as
might

just out of interest, what sort of real-world problems generate the need to
find the eigenvalues of a 22k by 22k matrix?


author: Ronald Bruck

text:
In article <DX6Yf.14098$[email]>, NoIdea
<[email]> wrote:

MY suspicion was that the 22k is motivated by the fact that such a
matrix will just fit into 4GB of RAM, using double-precision reals.  I
could easily be wrong.

(True, the OP specified a symmetric matrix, and you might think you
need only half this space.  But since he also asked for eigenvectors,
he needs the full 22k x 22k workspace.)

 Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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text:
In article <[email]>,
 Ronald Bruck <[email]> writes:

no necessarily, I had already discussions with chemists which indeed needed
the full spectrum of the 30K matrix. but from the question it is rather
reasonable that he needs the largest or maybe the smallest eigenvalue since this
sounds like an adjacency matrix
hth
peter


subject: A polynomial egality to explain...

text:
Dobry den,

Here is a four degree homogeneous polynomial

q(x,y,z,t)=2*x*(y+z+t)*(2*x^2+3*x*(y+z+t)+2*(y+z+t)^2)
             +2*y*(z+t)*(2*y^2+3*y*(z+t)+2*(z+t)^2)
             +2*z*t*(2*z^2+3*z*t+2*t^2)

With the  property of invariance of function q to variables order:
q(x,y,z,t) = q(x,z,y,t) = q(z,y,x,t) ....   (1)

How do you explain  (1)  ?
Is there some way to generalize this property?

Dêkuyi,

Alain


subject: Re: A polynomial egality to explain...

text:
Good morning,

For Lamé's
p3(x,y) = 3xy(x+y)
3 terms {x,y,z} , p3(x,y+z) + p3(y,z)
            = 3x(y+z)(x+y+z)+ 3yz(y+z)
            = 3(y+z)(x(x+y+z)+yz)
            = 3(y+z)(x+y)(x+z)

As 'sttscitrans' noticed I don't build new identities ,
I give other presentations.

Compare:
m(x,y,z,t)=x^2+x(y+z+t)+(y+z+t)^2-(y(z+t)+zt) and say
           x^2+xy+xz+xt+y^2+yz+yt+z^2+zt+t^2

Alain


subject: Re: A polynomial egality to explain...

text:
On Mar 30, 8:04 am, "[email]"
<[email]> wrote:

19th century algebra books deal extensively with the theory of
functions that are invariant under certain permuattions of variables.

The symmetric function xy +xz +yz
is invariant under all substitutions of x,y,z
The cyclic function xxy +yyz +zzx
is invariant under the cyclic permuation
(xyz)

The sums and products of, say, the
primitive symmetric functions x+y +z,
xy+xy+yz, xyz are invariant under all substitutions and so are
symmetric functions and every symmetric function in three variables is
a sum and product of primitive symmetric functions in three
variables


subject: Re: A polynomial egality to explain...

text:
On Mar 30, 11:03 am, "[email]" <[email]>
wrote:

Good morning,

Thanks for your clear and nice answer.

My way is a bit different and works with
2 or more variables polynomials.

Ignoring exact powers inside a development,
be  p[n](x,y) =(x+y)^n-(x^+y^n)  , n integer
for 3 var. {x,y,z} ,  p[n](x,y+z)+p[n](y,z) ,
for 4 var. {x,y,z,t} , p[n](x,y+z+t)+p[n](y,z+t))+p[n](z,t) ,
and so on ...

Degree 4th
**********
p4(x,y) = 2xy(2x^2+3xy+2y^2) ,
Just try it for the givenq(x,y,z,t)

Ex: From (x,y,z} and p3(x,y) we've directly got
Lamé's identity.

Alain


author: Pluto

subject: Sharp CPV panel promise grid parity.

text:
12.5 feet by 16 feet  PV panel outputs 2.9 KW

Production may start next year.

October 21, 2006
Sharp Shows CPV Panel at Solar Power 2006 Conference .

At the Solar Power 2006 Conference and Expo in San Jose, Sharp Electronics
showed a concentrating photovoltaic (CPV) solar panel. This system, which
may come to market as early as the next year or two, would be used for solar
power plants--large installations in a field that would pass power onto the
grid.

The panel consists of a series of tiny solar cells measuring about a quarter
of an inch (7 x 7 mm) per side, siting beneath Fresnel lenses which
concentrates sunlight. The solar cells in these panels is made out of III-V
compounds (molecules made from elements in the III and V columns of the
Periodic Table of Elements). Producing chips from these materials, such as
gallium arsenide, is expensive.

Thus, the solar cell needs to be small. The lens, by contrast, is much less
expensive and measures a few inches across. The panel itself measures about
12.5 feet by 16 feet and contains 270 lenses. A panel with 270 lenses can
produce 2.9 kilowatts and tracks the sun for maximum efficiency.

Jason Bobruk, of Sharp Electronics presented a paper, "Concentrating
Photovoltaics on the Path to Grid Parity," at the conference.


author: Alex Terrell

subject: Re: Sharp CPV panel promise grid parity.

text:
Pluto wrote:

I make that as each Fresnel lens is about 25.8cm square, focusing onto
a 7mm square cell,  for a 1360 factor concentration.

How much can a Fresnel bend light by? Wouldn't this make for a rather
deep bulky panel?

How do they extract the heat from the cell and stop it melting?

Might it not make mroe sense to go for say, a 0.5 - 1 mm cell and a
10mm lens? That would alleviate both problems.

Alex


author: BobG

text:
I looked at that site... said 44acres of PV... I multiplied that out to
m^2 17+K... receiveing 975w/m^2->17MW in, 3.5MW out, thats 5%
electrical efficiency. To compute the Don Lancaster Energy=Money
effciency, I'd have to find out how much they paid for the stuff.


text:
Pluto wrote:
========================================
3.8m x 4.8m -> ~18m^2 -> 18KW in, 3KW out -> 16%


author: Don Lancaster

text:
Pluto wrote:
There is no way in hell that solar concentration is part of the
solution. Nor can active tracking be.

This was thoroughly proven in the seventies.

Grid parity can only come about through brand new materials minimally
used in room temperature, low pressure roll to roll processing.

CIGS and quantum dots appear to be possible faltering steps in the right
directions.

More at http://www.tinaja.com/glib/whtnu06.asp and
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


text:
BobG wrote:

Double check your math...

There are 4047 square meters in an acre and 44 acres
on the site for a total of 178,068 square meters. Nominal
peak incoming energy is 1000 watts per square meter.
Dividing the peak 4 megawatts by the acres gives a peak
power production of about 23 watts per square meter.

Yielding an energy conversion efficiency of 2.3 percent or
so. This figure is low because not all of the total area is
effectively utilized for actual cell generation. We'll
note in passing that the latest of conventional power plants
are approaching 62 percent thermal efficiency.


author: Dan Bloomquist

text:
Alex Terrell wrote:

Nope. I have a four foot lens that is maybe an 1/8" thick. I can melt
rocks with it.


text:
They haven't mentioned the cost of the panel.
Except saying that they are using low cost fresnel lens to keep costs down !

"BobG" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

Also if the site was free, the inverters were free, the maint was free,
the construction was free, the shipping was free, the supports and site
prep was free, and they only paid $100 each for their huge $900 list
price panels, their amortized cost would be at least THREE TIMES the
avoided cost peaking electricity they are providing on a clear day.

My best guess is that their costs are around 47 cents per KWH. Not
counting the PR and subsidy ripoffs and credits and such.

Probably more like two dollars per KWH net net net unaided.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


text:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:
For only a few seconds at a time without elaborate tracking.


text:
Pluto wrote:

Best real world installed panel efficiency is two percent.
See http://greenwatts.com/pages/solaroutput.asp .


text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

Sorry, you're off topic. BTW, I', the 'elaborate tracking' device. Don't
try this without your welding goggles.


author: R.H. Allen

text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

In reality they have a mix of panel sizes, and while most of them are
huge they average out to a not-so-big 130 W. To pay $900 for a 130-W
panel you have to be *looking* for a bad deal....

Not even wrong. Under your assumptions I get anywhere from 1.5 to 3.5
real cents/kWh, depending on financing and discount rates, system
lifetime, depreciation schedule, tax rates, and required rate of return
(and I didn't even factor in the investment tax credit). Compare to 4-5
cents/kWh in generating costs for the cheapest natural gas plants....

Then you're clearly not doing a complete analysis. Had you done it the
way the electric power industry does its own calculations your best
guess would probably have been about half that. And I'm not counting any
subsidies or other special treatment, just the same commercial and
corporate financing methods and tax laws that any power plant gets to
take advantage of.


author: KERSPLOSH

subject: greenmountain

text:
http://www.greenmountain.com/

http://www.boycottgreenmountain.com/

Does anybody know how much power greenmountain produces via wind? Any figures
on efficiency and cost? I'm not really interested in concerns about greenhouse
gases, etc., as per the second website as I am in how successful has their work
been with wind power.


author: Gary D. Conley

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
In 2000 CA produced 3.6 giga watt hours from wind or 1.27% of the state
total consumed that year. Wind is the cheapest renewable by far, when you
have the wind. The Altamont Pass is near my home and i frequently fly over
it. The early turbines were maintenance headaches and early blade designs
noisy with a tendency to shake things apart. Current designs are modern,
require very little maintenance, and relatively cheap. Start at
http://www.energy.ca.gov/wind/overview.html and follow the links.

Gary D. Conley
H2GO

"KERSPLOSH" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
figures
greenhouse
work


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
KERSPLOSH wrote:

There simply is not that much wind.

The toal of ALL of California's wind energy today could barely meet the
needs of 10% of Connecticut's electrical energy demands.

See the ENERGY ADVOCATE link at http://www.tinaja.com/h2gas01.asp for
additional info.


author: Roland Paterson-Jones

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Don, you are certainly adding to it.

Roland

"Don Lancaster" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
I would think that any renewable resource that can actually create energy (such
as wind) should be considered a good thing. If you want to buy a candy bar, and
it costs 60 cents, and wind might represent a nickel (or more) then I am 5
cents towards my goal. To say that it is not enough to buy a candy bar is to
disregard the intrinsic value. I really am only interested in reaching the
goal, and not in arguments about how impossible the goal is, or how I can never
have or really need the goal.


author: fred b mcgalliard

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
In Don's view, I expect wind does not create energy. It is a very poor
thermodynamic converter, taking the day/night heat differences and turning
them into air circulation currents. Very inefficient.

"KERSPLOSH" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
(such
bar, and
to
never


author: Graham Cowan

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
fred b mcgalliard wrote:

Is there another way to see it?

--- Graham Cowan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html --
100 watt-hours in a baby's fist


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Yes. A convenient way of concentrating a vast and very dispersed energy
source that we don't have to build. (course we do still have to build the
wind mills.) Figure on the energy return for a dollar invested in hardware.
. Actually, since the wind could be driven almost as well by the 85% waste
heat from the solar PV, we could cover the earth with PV and still collect
the wind. Ain't it grand?

"Graham Cowan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
turning


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Graham, I presume you're similarly in jest with this immediate thread.

Nature has provided the terribly inefficient solar to air kinetic
conversion, so the infrastructure is already in place. We simply have to
build something to catch the air.

What's more, nature has also provided the even less efficient air-kinetic to
fluid wave conversion technology (ocean swell).

What counts is the energy density and cost of capture.

Yours in humour
Roland

p.s. I'm devastated by the realisation that your North American windmills
are going to destroy my surfing pleasure in South Africa. I hope the Don is
wrong about you guys having captured all of the wind.

"Graham Cowan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
turning


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Graham Cowan wrote:

How about that, "The cost per unit output seems to now be competitive
with fossil burning technology."?

Best, Dan.


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Dan Bloomquist wrote:

But the number of wind unit outputs is not now and never will be
remotely more than a tiny fraction of energy demand.


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
THAT is why you might want to consider something like EER - which COMBINES
wind, solar, stream, river, tidal, etc., etc., etc.


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Don Lancaster wrote:

That seems to be a function human nature, not the technology. So, it
depends on where you look.

http://www.windpower.dk/articles/energypo.htm

Best, Dan.


author: Sandy

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
On 20 Nov 2002 07:16:25 GMT, [email] (Eerguy9) wrote:

So does everything. Give it a rest!

Why would you think that electric energy from any source can't be
combined with some simple electronics?

Sandy


author: tjward

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
"Eerguy9" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
<snip>

Well, I hate to feed the troll, but in what way does the existing electrical
grid _fail_ to combine whatever electrical energy is presented to it?

Note, now, that we are not discussing "EER", or any of it's phantasmagorical
attributes.
Since you have previously admitted that energy must be presented to "EER" in
an electrical form, a response containing "EER" would not be appropriate.

We are discussing the existing electrical grid, and whether it fails to
combine electrical energy from any of the sources you cited.

So, specifically, of the sources you cited, which of them _cannot_ be used
to generate electrical energy that the existing electric grid will not
accept? What evidence do you have to support this belief?

Tim Ward


author: Thomas Lee Elifritz

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
November 11, 2002

Dan Bloomquist wrote:

Don  Lancaster is very fond of the word "never", especially when it's
use implies no violation of any fundamental physical laws of nature.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
I don't think that.

BUT, combining and storing the electrical charge them in a small volume is a
little harder.

Like, for example, a fist-sized powerhouse for an EV.


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
In a way that would enable the powering of EV's.  Mobility.

Noted.

an electrical form, a response containing "EER" would not be appropriate.

I do not follow.

I was not thinking of the grid.  I was thinking about replacing the internal
combustion engine.

I suppose they could all be used to support the grid.  But none of them could
power an EV, because they are not mobile.

Intuition.

Frank Lincoln


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
"tjward" <[email]> wrote in message
news:zvPC9.157$[email]...

phantasmagorical
in

Irritated and irritating double negation mistake. Please rephrase the next
to last question as:

So, specifically, of the sources you cited, which of them _cannot_ be used
to generate electrical energy that the existing electric grid WILL accept?

Tim Ward


author: Paul

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
Maybe cars could have gas hydrogen and liquid hydron tanks.
You could make gas hydrogen into liquid with a Sterling cryo
or something..Just a thought

"FEerguy9" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
COMBINES
electrical
phantasmagorical
in
internal
used
could


subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
I am not worried about the grid.  I am focused on storing the energy from those
sources in an EV.

Frank


author: Steve Spence

subject: Re: greenmountain

text:
"Dan Bloomquist" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

neither does he lead. maybe he should just get out of the way?


author: Gerry Schneider

subject: Re: quiescent power consumption of modern cmos logic?

text:
Peter Duck wrote:

Very true. I check CMOS DC current once in a while just to keep in touch with
the numbers, and for a simple quad gate package biased in spec the total Icc is
well below 10nA at room temp. Probably the high temp value is the real culprit.

Gerry


author: Charles W. Shults III

text:
I never even bother with the quiescent current of the CMOS logic I use.
I only look at what it consumes when being clocked.  I add up the power
everything else consumes and that's it.

Cheers!

Chip Shults

SPAM free Email - [email] but remove the .baryon

PGP \\   8B27 CFD5 AAD5 67EA BF00
Key //   7529 9CF6 C3D7 233C D4D9


author: Ray Bowen

text:
Ordinarily I don't delve into the nano regions of amperes, but this time I
have no choice.

The project I mentioned involves oscillators that run at a few KHz, and at
temperatures that may reach as high as +85 degrees Celsius.

Therein lies the potential problem with the "typical" values.

Might one assume that lower typical values at 25 degrees C. would indicate
lower maximum values at temperature extremes?

Am I doomed to haunt the telephonic corridors of the manufacturers'
redoubts?

Thanks for your comments, all --

Ray

Charles W. Shults III <[email]> wrote in message
news:hiGd6.66997$[email]...
use.


text:
Even hot, CMOS is extremely efficient.  You can run into trouble at the
temperature limits, though- you are artificially initiating thermal runaway.
But consider this.  Most junctions do not run "cold", contrary to popular
belief.  They become quite hot, quite often.  The real limiting factor is
heat dissipation of the case.

Cheers!

Chip Shults

SPAM free Email - [email] but remove the .baryon

PGP \\   8B27 CFD5 AAD5 67EA BF00
Key //   7529 9CF6 C3D7 233C D4D9


author: Stargazer

subject: Wooden Cases

text:
I just received, from Astro Custom Cases, a new wooden case for my 5"
refractor.  The case has a cherry finish and is simply beautiful.
Very solid and very, very well made.  Heirloom quality.

If you want a really nice, traditional-looking wooden case for your
telescope or eyepieces, consider Astro Custom Cases.  (Do a search on
Google.)  Daniel Mounsey is the proprietor.

No, I don't get a kickback for posting this, but I do like to reward a
job well done.  I have purchased two cases from Daniel Mounsey, and I
look forward to a third one someday.

Bill Green
Austin, Texas
wpg1956@earthlink(removethis).net


subject: Re: Wooden Cases

text:
Does anyone make a case more scratch and dent friendly?  I like protecting
my equipment, but I don't want to have to baby the case too.

Greg

"Stargazer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Bill Becker

subject: Re: Wooden Cases

text:
"Stargazer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I bought one of Dan's cases for my Vixen 4" Apo.....very very nice.

Best regards,
Bill


author: Marc Zukoff

subject: Re: Wooden Cases

text:
Hi,

   I have purchased 3 eyepiece cases from Daniel. I agree they are
wonderfully made, and reasonably priced.

                                           Marc Zukoff

[email] (Stargazer) wrote in message news:<[email]>...


author: Deswinerizer

subject: Re: McSweegan's Love Note that Could Land me in Prison

text:
Lisa wrote:

He's just bullsh**ting you Lisa. Don't worry. He can't set you up because he
doesn't have the power to. He's a big nothing. He got fired from the NIH
because he was crap at his job, he's just a malcontent who stirs things up.

He's too stupid to be in the CIA. He can't even work out what nationality you
are. (LOL). He doesn't know anything about your case. He's just picked up some
old gossip on the internet , that's all. He doesn't even know it's out of date.
He doesn't know that you were cleared of that false accusation months ago.

He's irrelevant. Nobody cares what he says or does. He has no power. He likes
to scare people but he's a big nothing. He predicted Kathleen would be put in a
mental institution after  court yesterday, but she wasn't. He said they would
get permanent custody of her kids but they didn't. He's just a bulls****tter,
and no one needs to be afraid of him. We can all say what we like. We have the
right to freedom of speech.

Deswinerizer


author: [redacted]

text:
[email] (Deswinerizer) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I'm not McSweegan. But McSweegan is not fired. He still works at the
NIH. Get your facts straight Lisa aka DeSwinerizer. And stop lying.

It isn't "gossip." Gossip would be discussion by other people.
Everything I said about your case came from stuff that YOU posted big
mouth.

Another LIE. Lisa's kids were taken away. If she had been cleared of
the accusation, she would have them back. She has lost her kids
permanently. She isn't allowed to see them or communicate with them.

She is a LIAR. Which means YOU are a LIAR. In fact the whole
"existence" of "McSwinerizer" is a LIE.

Another bit of evidence to add to the mix. Kathleen posts using many
names herself. Kathleen and Jan Musinski. Kathleen also posts as the
"weenerizer" which she thinks is a clever take off on the name
McSweegan one of her longstanding obsessions. Lisa wasn't even
creative, she just changed a few letters.

That's what can be expected of the profoundly stupid Lisa.

No I predicted that would happen today. Or soon enough. As greg gerber
said today, her actions have made the outcome predictable to ANYONE.

That will be the outcome at the conclusion of the case. I didn't say
it would happen today, although it might. Probably they'll await till
the many psychiatrists at the mental institution have examined
kathleen and written their reports.

One of the reports about her will say: "We thought that our other
patients were pretty sick and crazy. Then we met kathleen and found
that our vocabulary doesn't even cover what is wrong with her. In
light of seeing her, we've decided our other patients are relatively
healthy and we've released them. We need to devote the full resources
of our institution and personell on her case. We probably can't help
her but we can learn a lot by studying her."

YOU are the bullshitter LIAR AND FRAUD!

Yes Lisa aka DeSwinerizer you both can say what Lisa says since you
are both Lisa.

Another LIE by LISA exposed!


text:
I know u still work at the NIH u piece of trash. And how come u r so up and up
on every detail about McSwinebomb?

Show me where I said ANY Scotland Yard investigation of me is ongoing about ANY
subject whatsoever.

Or shut your poisonous lying mouth forever.

No mister I think she was one of YOUR long-standing obsessions. and still is.
Because you make it your business to harass any Lyme activist who speaks out
too much about the lying establishment quacks like Klempner (another biowarfare
buddy of yours) etc..

Lots of people on the net usemany email addresses. Often for very normal
reasons such as having tech probs with one, or using one at work and one at
home etc..

You are the creepy guy who uses expensive remailer software to hide your
identity.

But as I said, there cannot be TWO such hateful figures in Lymeland .

Therefore I conclude you are McSweegan.

Your talking out of your ass as usual. the only way you could possily know the
outcome of her case in advanc e,or anyone else's, is if you were with the FBI
or CIA.

Now McSweegan , I have much too much respect for the US government to  imagine
that for one minute the FBI or CIA would hire someone as stupid as you.

I am beginning to believe you are not even a real bioweapons expert. It's more
bullshiting, right McSweegan. No one would trust such an idiot in a fieldlie
that, would they? Besides, you don't project as any kind of scientist at
all.You clearly have NO knowledge about microbiology.

Lisa


author: ironjustice

subject: Iron Chelation In Ageing

text:
Research shows safe dosages of common pain reliever may help prevent
conditions related to aging
September 23rd, 2009  Dr. Eric Blough and his colleagues at Marshall
University have shown that acetaminophen ingestion, at least in
animals, can be safely used for the treatment of age-related muscle
loss. Credit: Rick Haye, Marshall University

Recent studies conducted by Dr. Eric Blough and his colleagues at
Marshall University have shown that use of the common pain reliever
acetaminophen may help prevent age-associated muscle loss and other
conditions.

Their study examined how acetaminophen may affect the regulation of
protein kinase B (Akt), an enzyme known to play an important role in
regulation of cellular survival, proliferation and metabolism.

The researchers' data indicates that aging skeletal muscles experience
a decrease in the proper functioning of the enzyme and that
acetaminophen intervention in aged animals could be used to restore
Akt activity to a level comparable to that seen in young animals. In
turn, this improvement in Akt activity was associated with
improvements in muscle cell size and decreased muscle cell death.

"Using a model that closely mimics many of the age-associated
physiological changes observed in humans, we were able to demonstrate
that chronic acetaminophen treatment in a recommended dosage is not
only safe but might be beneficial for the treatment of the muscle
dysfunction many people experience as they get older," said Blough, an
associate professor in the university's Department of Biological
Sciences.

The lab's work, which was published in the July 29 issue of the
international research journal PLoS One, is the first study to show
that acetaminophen ingestion, at least in animals, can be safely used
for the treatment of age-related muscle loss. This finding could have
far-reaching implications, given the fact that people age 65 and older
make up the fastest-growing segment of the U.S. population.

Additional research in their laboratory, which was published in the
March issue of the journal Diabetes/Metabolism Research and Reviews,
demonstrates the medication may also be useful in diminishing the
severity of age-associated hyperglycemia, commonly referred to as high
blood sugar.

"It is thought that acetaminophen may exert its action by decreasing
the amount of reactive oxygen species," explained Dr. Miaozong Wu, the
lead author and a postdoctoral fellow in Blough's lab. "Given the
finding that increases in reactive oxygen species may play a role in
the development of several age-associated disorders, it is possible
that acetaminophen could be used to treat many different types of
conditions."

Dr. John Maher, vice president for research and executive director of
the Marshall University Research Corporation, said, "These findings
are yet another indication that Marshall's researchers are conducting
vital research in areas of great importance to human health and
safety. I could not be more pleased and wish Dr. Blough and his team
continued success."

According to Blough, scientists in his lab will now turn their
attention to examining other physiological systems, such as the heart
and blood vessels, to see if acetaminophen therapy might have similar
benefits for people with cardiovascular disease.

Source: Marshall University

----------------------

Iron Chelator Acetaminophen Normalizes Glucose

Biochem Pharmacol. 2007 Dec 15 [Epub ahead of print]
Acetaminophen normalizes glucose homeostasis in mouse models for
diabetes.
Shertzer HG, Schneider SN, Kendig EL, Clegg DJ, D'Alessio DA, Genter
MB.
Department of Environmental Health and Center for Environmental
Genetics, University of Cincinnati Medical Center, Cincinnati, OH
45267, USA.

Loss of pancreatic beta cell insulin secretion is the most important
element in the progression of type 1 and type 2 diabetes. Since
oxidative stress is involved in the progressive loss of beta cell
function, we evaluated the potential for the over-the-counter
analgesic drug and antioxidant, acetaminophen (APAP), to intervene in
the diabetogenic process. We used mouse models for type 1 diabetes
(streptozotocin) and type 2 diabetes (high-fat diet) to examine the
ability of APAP to intervene in the progression of diabetes. In
C57BL/
6J mice, streptozotocin caused a dosage dependent increase in fasting
blood glucose (FBG), from 100 to >600mg/dl. Daily APAP (20mg/kg BW,
gastric gavage), significantly prevented and partially reversed the
increase in FBG levels produced by streptozotocin. After 10 weeks on
a
high-fat diet, mice developed fasting hyperinsulemia and impaired
glucose tolerance compared to animals fed a control diet. APAP
largely
prevented these changes in insulin and glucose tolerance.
Furthermore,
APAP prevented most of the increase in body fat in mice fed the high-
fat diet. One protective mechanism for APAP is suggested by studies
using isolated liver mitochondria, where low micromolar
concentrations
abolished the production of reactive oxygen that might otherwise
contribute to the destruction of pancreatic beta-cells. These
findings
suggest that administration of APAP to mice, in a dosage used safely
by humans, reduces the production of mitochondrial reactive oxygen
and
concomitantly prevents the development of type 1 and type 2 diabetes
in established animal models.

PMID: 18237716 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
---------------------------------

Annals of Clinical & Laboratory Science 37:22-33 (2007)
(c) 2007 Association of Clinical Scientists

Acetaminophen Protects Against Iron-Induced Cardiac Damage in Gerbils
Ernest M. Walker, Jr.1,2, Christopher P. Epling2, Cordel Parris2,
Silvestre Cansino2, Protip Ghosh3, Devashish H. Desai4, Ryan G.
Morrison4, Gary L. Wright4, Paulette Wehner2, Elsa I. Mangiarua4,
Sandra M. Walker5 and Eric R. Blough6
1 Pathology, 2 Cardiovascular Services, 3 Geology, 4 Physiology,,and
6
Biology Departments, Marshall University; 5 Marshall Community &
Technical College and St Mary's Medical Center, Huntington,
WestVirginia
Address correspondence to Ernest M. Walker, Jr., M.D., Ph.D.,
Pathology Department, Marshall University Medical School, 1542 Spring
Valley Drive, Huntington, WV 25704, USA; tel 304 696 72766; fax 304
696 6777; e-mail [email].

There are few effective agents that safely remove excess iron from
iron-overloaded individuals. Our goal was to evaluate the iron-
removing effectiveness of acetaminophen given ip or orally in the
gerbil iron-overload model. Male gerbils were divided into 5 groups:
saline controls, iron-overloaded controls, iron-overloaded treated
with ip acetaminophen, iron-overloaded treated with oral
acetaminophen, and iron-overloaded treated with ipdeferoxamine. Iron
dextran was injected iptwice/wk for 8 wk. Acetaminophen and
deferoxamine treatments were given on Mondays, Wednesdays, and
Fridays
during the same 8 wk and continued for 4 wk after completion of iron-
overloading. Echocardiograms were performed after completion of the
iron-overloading and drug treatments. Liver and cardiac iron contents
were determined by inductively coupled plasma atomic emission
spectrometry (ICP-AES). Iron-overloaded controls had 232-fold and 16-
fold increases in liver and cardiac iron content, respectively,
compared to saline controls. In iron-overloaded controls,
echocardiography showed cardiac hypertrophy, right and left
ventricular distension, significant reduction in left ventricular
ejection fraction (-22%), and fractional shortening (-31%) during
systole. Treatments with acetaminophen (ip or oral) or deferoxamine
(ip) were equally effective in reducing cardiac iron content and in
preventing cardiac structural and functional changes. Both agents
also
significantly reduced excess hepatic iron content, although
acetaminophen was less effective than deferoxamine. The results
suggest that acetaminophen may be useful for treatment of iron-
induced
pathology.

Keywords: acetaminophen, deferoxamine, echocardiogram, iron-overload,
gerbils, hemochromatosis

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


subject: Re: Iron Chelation In Ageing

text:
On Sep 24, 9:51 am, ironjustice <[email]>
wrote:decreasing
the amount of reactive oxygen species <<

Superoxides Harm Muscle Tissue And May Lead To Age-related Muscle
Decline
ScienceDaily (Sep. 23, 2009) — If you think the air outside is
polluted, a new research report in the September 2009 issue of the
journal Genetics might make you to think twice about the air inside
our bodies too. That's because researchers show how about 3 percent of
the air we breathe gets converted into harmful superoxides, which
ultimately harm our muscles.

Specifically, these superoxides lead to the creation of a toxic
molecule called "reactive oxygen species" or ROS, which is shown to be
particularly harmful to muscle tissue, and may lead to problems
ranging from aging and frailty to Parkinson's disease and cancer.

"At a minimum, we hope this research leads to new ways of addressing
inevitable declining physical performance and other age-dependent
infirmities among the elderly," said Atanu Duttaroy, associate
professor of biology at Howard University in Washington, D.C. and one
of the researchers involved in the work.

To make their discovery, Duttaroy and colleagues built on their
previous research showing that ROS-induced cellular damage happens in
the same way in fruit flies and in mice. They started with fruit flies
that lack mitochondrial superoxide dismutase enzyme (SOD), which
provides the primary line of defense against ROS by capturing the
superoxides and converting them to water. This lack of SOD caused the
fruit flies to die within a day after hatching. Then, through genetic
manipulation, the researchers "turned on" the production of SOD
separately in nerves and muscles. SOD in nerves did not appear to make
a significant difference in prolonging the fruit flies' lives, but it
did make a difference when it was activated in their muscles. The
survival of fruit flies with SOD "turned on" in their muscles
increased, and for several days, they remained as active as their
normal counterparts. Measurement of their muscle activity also showed
that SOD helped the muscle work normally, helping survival.

"It's long been known that the oxygen we breath can be toxic, and this
work provides a concrete example of that with real consequences." said
Mark Johnston, Editor-in-Chief of the journal Genetics. "As baby
boomers get older, the need to help older people stay mobile and fit
has never been greater in our lifetimes. This study helps address this
need by providing insight into what causes physical decline, and in
turn, bringing us a step closer toward finding ways to stop or reverse
it."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.Godenschwege et al. Mitochondrial Superoxide Radicals Differentially
Affect Muscle Activity and Neural Function. Genetics, 2009; 183 (1):
175 DOI: 10.1534/genetics.109.103515
Adapted from materials provided by Genetics Society of America, via
EurekAlert!, a service of AAAS.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


subject: Re: Iron Chelation In Ageing

text:
On Sep 24, 9:51 am, ironjustice <[email]> wrote:
 can be safely used for the treatment of age-related muscle
loss. <<

Iron accumulation with age, oxidative stress and functional decline.
Xu J, Knutson MD, Carter CS, Leeuwenburgh C
Research Support, N.I.H., Extramural, Research Support, Non-U.S.
Gov't]
PLoS ONE 2008; 3(8):e2865.

Identification of biological mediators in sarcopenia is pertinent to
the development of targeted interventions to alleviate this
condition.
Iron is recognized as a potent pro-oxidant and a catalyst for the
formation of reactive oxygen species in biological systems.
It is well accepted that iron accumulates with senescence in several
organs, but little is known about iron accumulation in muscle and how
it may affect muscle function.
In addition, it is unclear if interventions which reduced age-related
loss of muscle quality, such as calorie restriction, impact iron
accumulation.
We investigated non-heme iron concentration, oxidative stress to
nucleic acids in gastrocnemius muscle and key indices of sarcopenia
(muscle mass and grip strength) in male Fischer 344 X Brown Norway
rats fed ad libitum (AL) or a calorie restricted diet (60% of ad
libitum food intake starting at 4 months of age) at 8, 18, 29 and 37
months of age.
Total non-heme iron levels in the gastrocnemius muscle of AL rats
increased progressively with age.
Between 29 and 37 months of age, the non-heme iron concentration
increased by approximately 200% in AL-fed rats.
Most importantly, the levels of oxidized RNA in gastrocnemius muscle
of AL rats were significantly increased as well.
The striking age-associated increase in non-heme iron and oxidized RNA
levels and decrease in sarcopenia indices were all attenuated in the
calorie restriction (CR) rats.
These findings strongly suggest that the age-related iron accumulation
in muscle contributes to increased oxidative damage and sarcopenia,
and that CR effectively attenuates these negative effects.

PLoS ONE [PLoS ONE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"Iron might contribute to muscle atrophy"

Increased iron content and RNA oxidative damage in skeletal muscle
with aging and disuse atrophy.
Hofer T, Marzetti E, Xu J, Seo AY, Gulec S, Knutson MD, Leeuwenburgh
C, Dupont-Versteegden EE
Exp Gerontol 2008 Feb 29.

Muscle atrophy with aging or disuse is associated with deregulated
iron homeostasis and increased oxidative stress likely inflicting
damage to nucleic acids.
Therefore, we investigated RNA and DNA oxidation, and iron homeostasis
in gastrocnemius muscles.
Disuse atrophy was induced in 6- and 32-month old male Fischer 344/
Brown Norway rats by 14 days of hind limb suspension (HS).
We show that RNA, but not DNA, oxidative damage increased 85% with age
and 36% with HS in aged muscle.
Additionally, non-heme iron levels increased 233% with aging and 83%
with HS at old age, while staining for free iron was strongest in the
smallest fibers. Simultaneously, the mRNA abundance of transferrin
receptor-1 decreased by 80% with age and 48% with HS for young
animals, while that of the hepcidin regulator hemojuvelin decreased
37% with age, but increased about 44% with disuse, indicating a
dysregulation of iron homeostasis favoring increased intracellular
free iron in atrophied muscles.
RNA and DNA concentrations increased with age and were negatively
correlated with muscle mass, whereas protein concentrations decreased
with aging, indicating a preferential loss of protein compared to
nucleic acids.
Furthermore, xanthine oxidase activity increased with age, but not
with HS, while mRNA abundance of the Y box-binding protein-1, which
has been suggested to bind oxidized RNA, did not change with age or
HS.
These results suggest that RNA oxidation, possibly mediated by
increased non-heme iron, might contribute to muscle atrophy due to
disuse particularly in aged muscle.

Experimental gerontology [Exp Gerontol]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/4rq595

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


subject: Re: Iron Chelation In Ageing

text:
On Sep 24, 10:17 am, ironjustice <[email]> wrote:
 Iron accumulation with age, oxidative stress and functional decline.
<<

I nominate the common sugar maltol.

Research to develop small-molecule drug that blocks excess iron
absorption
25. September 2009 06:53

While most people are familiar with anemia - or lack of iron in the
blood - they are less familiar with diseases of too much iron.

Excess iron in the body, if left unchecked, can form toxic deposits
in
major organs leading to serious conditions including heart failure,
diabetes, liver cirrhosis, arthritis, and even infertility. Iron
overload can be a consequence of a genetically mutated gene known as
hereditary hemochromatosis, or a consequence of red blood cell
transfusions, required as life saving treatments, for patients with
diseases such as thalassemia.

Patients with hemochromatosis and thalassemia both absorb too much
iron from their diet which either causes or exacerbates their iron
overloading to levels that are toxic.

The mutated gene for hemochromatosis is carried by 1 in 9 Canadians.
Currently over 100,000 Canadians and several million people in the US
have hemochromatosis, with many of these patients still undiagnosed.

"Part of the problem is that this condition of hemochromatosis will
present itself in disguised ways and is often unrecognized by
physicians. A patient may have arthritis, or extreme fatigue or even
diabetes, but often it's not linked to the real genetic cause, which
is iron overload," says Dr. Paul Goldberg of Xenon Pharmaceuticals.

Goldberg is the lead investigator on the $7.5 million project
entitled
Enabling Studies for a DMT1 inhibitor - A Novel Therapeutic Approach
for Treatment of Iron Overload Disorders.

The research, funded by Xenon Pharmaceuticals and Genome BC will
tackle the disease, by creating a small-molecule drug to block excess
iron absorption at its source: directly in the gut.

Currently, hemochromatosis patients are treated with lifelong
phlebotomies - invasive and sometimes painful treatments that require
regular trips to the hospital or clinic to remove about half a litre
of blood, allowing the patient to produce new blood with less iron.

While phlebotomies work well in many of the patients, they can be
problematic, causing recipients to feel unwell for a while following
the procedure. "Patients are rendered anemic temporarily so the
procedure is not suitable for people with heart conditions or needle
intolerance," says Goldberg. He also points out that patient
compliance can be a problem with this form of treatment.

As such, Goldberg's research is focused on creating a safe and
effective oral therapy as an alternative or adjunctive treatment for
those affected by iron overload.

"Patients with hemochromatosis are hyper-absorbing iron he says. The
drug that we are developing would block the key transporter for this
excess iron uptake, known as DMT1."

Thalassemia patients may also directly benefit from the DMT1
blockers.
These patients become severely iron overloaded at a young age due to
the requirement for regular life saving blood transfusions and the
additive complication of excessive iron absorption from their diet.

Patients who chronically receive blood transfusions are currently
treated with iron chelators to control their iron levels. However
chelators have severe dose limiting side effects and it remains
challenging for clinicians to maintain normal iron balance in these
patients. In addition, chelation therapy is extremely expensive,
sometimes costing up to $50,000 per patient and may require for some
patients frequent and prolonged intravenous administration.

"The Xenon drug provides an oral alternative and is being optimized
for patient safety," says Dr. Simon Pimstone, President and CEO of
Xenon Pharmaceuticals. "Our DMT1 blockers could lower the dosage of
iron chelator drugs making them safer or could make them more
effective, either way, improving patient outcomes. Our goal is to
test
this drug in iron overload patients within two to three years."

"Genome BC is pleased to co-support this innovative research, which
may develop an innovative, safe and valuable treatment alternative to
patients suffering from iron overload disorders," says Dr. Alan
Winter, President and CEO of Genome BC.

http://www.xenon-pharma.com/

Tags: Adjuvant Therapy, Anemia, Arthritis, Cell, Cirrhosis, Diabetes,
Diet, Genetics, Genomics, Heart Failure, Hemochromatosis, Hospital,
Infertility, Metabolism, Thalassemia, Xenon
--------------------------

You take a can of cream of mushroom soup.
You add half a quarter can of milk.
You heat the soup .. up ..
You smear it on a piece of quality bread and you broil it for five
minutes.
Mmmm ..
You may add more mushrooms if you like ..
The sugar you taste is maltol ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/4rq595

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


author: Inverse 19 mathematics

subject: TAN   5:7  "PRIME NUMBERS"   FROM  INVERSE19 MATHEMATICS

text:
Your Mathematical theory should be "embarrased " about its Nuisance
Primr number solution calling it Randon , murderous etc over 300
years, Since Inverse mathematics has clearly shown in these posts at
Sci math that

1. Prime numbers are not random atall!

2. That Prime numbers are predictable by several means including
"Convergence" , and "Divergence" and orientation as we have shown , a
clear proof ,  also by sets of 36 , by divergence and convergence.

3. We have sorted these numbers out  by divergence and convergence at
19 , midline 9.5 , and we have a clear method of sieving out Pseudo
primes , that is priviliged, till your mathematics is brought down to
its knees

 HERE IS yet  another Method from Inverse 19 for the "potsherd" of
Mathematics. We do not have time because it is spring planting time
etc , but here it is as an outline , work it out if you wish, Please
check it out because we spent but 10 minutes on it total, honest!

5+7=12/6=1---

6+5=11
6+6=13

7+5=12/6=2---

8+5=13
8+7=15

9+7=16
9+5= 15

10+7=17
10+5=15

11+7=18/6=3---

12+5=17
12+7=19

13+5 =18/6=3--

14+5 =19
14+7=21

15+7=22
15+5=20

16+5=21
16+7=23

17+7=24/6=4---

18+5= 23
18+7=25

19+5=24/6=4----

20+5=25
20+7=27

21+5=26
21+7=28

22+5=27
22+7= 29

23+7=30/6=5------

prime 7919 +7=7926/6=1321

 SO ON! , SO ON!  We do not have the time to pick uop the garbage of
oyour mathematics, you clean your corridors of this 300 year old
garbage

 PSEUDO PRIMEE CAVEATS )F TAN 5:7 yet another  Method of inverse 19

133+5=138/6=23 -133=110 --np

119+5 =126/6=21 +119=140--np

49+5   = 54 / 6 = 9 -49  = 40np

121+5  =126/6=21-121  =100

 GOOD BY TILL June we will not  pick up the garbage nuisance of
current mathematics!! Shame on your mathematics!

 Hope Research- r


author: The Earl of Doncaster

subject: Re: TAN   5:7  "PRIME NUMBERS"   FROM  INVERSE19 MATHEMATICS

text:
Die shrieking in agony with a high-voltage chain saw rammed up your bottom.

"Inverse 19 mathematics" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

*** NOTHING ***


subject: Re: TAN 5:7 "PRIME NUMBERS" FROM INVERSE19 MATHEMATICS

text:
On Mar 18, 9:29 am, Inverse 19 mathematics <[email]>
wrote:

 REALLY , THIS IS PATHETIC OF YOUR MATHEMATICS AND YOUR PROFESSORS
THAT ARE PICKLED IN THE BRINE OF ONE ANCIENT THEORY , Clearly Inverse
Mathematics has delineated all your Prime numbers as predictable, and
in convergence and divergence , we do have primality solved , but that
is left till june , THEN this above method concieved in 10 minutes!!!
Same on your Mathematics Indeed , aas we will Publish oour Final draft
of Inverse 19 Mathematics  this JUne . Professor Escultura Is not part
of this mathematics , but his Crirtique was helpful  with us, but he
has not acceded to Inverse 19 Mathematics,We can live with that.

 Hope Research  " In the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ ",
-- Good by  all from Inverse 19 mathematuiccs  till june or after


author: Zero

subject: PROTOCOL CONVERTER

text:
Hi,

Can anyone recommend an RS232 to ethernet bidirectional protocol converter?
basically I am after something that plugs in to a single 9 way D type RS232
port and to an Ethernet hub and then allows real time bidirectional
comunications to take place.

Any advice/comments would be much appreciated.

Many thanks

Mike


author: Thomas Lutz

subject: Re: PROTOCOL CONVERTER

text:
There are several solutions available.
One is to use a "hardware Terminal Server" like the Digi One RealPort
http://www.digi.com/solutions/devtermsrv/devsrv/digioneTsRpSp.shtml
or the Lantronix MSS100
http://www.lantronix.com
or the Precidia serial servers
http://www.precidia.com

If you have a PC near the serial device that you want to connect to
the network, you can use a software proeuct called TCP/Com from TAL
Technologies.
http://www.taltech.com/TALtech_web/products/tcpcom.html

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:23:20 +0100, "Zero" <[email]> wrote:


author: cjt

subject: Re: PROTOCOL CONVERTER

text:
Zero wrote:

Like this? -

http://www.perle.com/products/prod_family/serial_servers/index.html


author: Alan Schnittman

subject: Re: PROTOCOL CONVERTER

text:
Take a look at the "NPort" product from Moxa Technology.
<www.moxa.com>.  I haven't had the opportunity to use one of these,
but I think it'll do what you want.

Good luck,

   Alan

====================================================
Alan Schnittman  | Brainchild Evolution, Inc | [email]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    prototype design & development | computer interface
embedded control | analog & digital circuits | software development
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


author: kim watson

subject: Re: PROTOCOL CONVERTER

text:
Alan Schnittman <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...
Zero,

Have a look at the 'pIPer' from Mutek Transcom Ltd.(www.mutek.co.uk)I
think this may do the trick.

all the best,

  Kim


author: Rick Williams

subject: Outsiders Observation of Nursing was Why no Nurse's Union?

text:
[email] wrote:

Although I am not a nurse, I have been married to one for nearly 19
years as she made the trials and tribulations of SICU for 16 years and
as she made her way into management.  So please do not take my
following comments as an attack on nursing, but rather as the
observations of someone who has watched with some interest for a
number of years.

First of all, I feel that the nashing of teeth and beating of breasts
exemplified by some of the above postings will accomplish absolutely
nothing for nursing!  I posed a question to my wife and several of her
friends nearly 20 years ago and that question was; why is it that in
organizations dominated by one class of employees, are those employees
so lacking in power?

As a professional manager myself, I see the answers as several fold
but rather obvious.  I'll try and highlight them below.

1.  Nursing has never made a serious attempt at integrating itself in
management.  It's lacks formalized training at both undergraduate and
graduate levels.  What programs do exist, have failed in building an
infrastructure in nursing management as a power base.  Typically
speaking, VP's of Nursing are the weak sisters in corporate
management.  (This is not a gender specific comment)

This lack of knowledge base has left nursing ill prepared to deal with
hospital administrators and in particular the economic side of health
care in justifying it's own causes.  Nursing decades ago should have
made a concerted effort to remove itself from an accounting class
including funiture and beds!!!  Thereby changing it's status from a
cost item to a profit item and thereby illustrating it's own worth.

2.  Nursing itself has been clearly devided in both leadership and
direction.  Debates such as "are non degreed nurses professional" have
done nothing other than divide nursing in times when unity was clearly
warrented.  The leaders of such discussions, brought the wrong item to
the table at the wrong time.

3. Nurses themselves have failed to support nursing causes both
locally within hospitals and care groups as well as nationally.

4. Nursing has failed to make legislative action that would have
pre-cluded use of non-licensed care givers in critical areas.  Further
nursing could have formulated a national standard of care based on
pt/RN ratios in specific settings.

In reviewing ocassionaly the discussions which occur in this news
group I cannot help but feel that nurses still don't understand or see
the handwriting on the wall!  For example everytime someone makes a
statement about the increase cost of nursing why aren't there 1.3
million voices screaming about the major increase in costs and that is
administrative, which is not patient care orientated.

Clearly, nursing can promote it's primary concern, which is direct
patient care, but to do that you as a group must organize and fight
back!!  And most importantly, you must fight smart!!

Best Regards
R. Williams