author: John Baez

text:
Also available at http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week281.html

October 19, 2009
This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics (Week 281)
John Baez

This week I'd like to finish my news report from the Corfu summer
school on quantum gravity.  You'll hear how strings meet loops in BF
theory, and how the Poincare 2-group gives a spin foam model that
mimics flat Minkowski spacetime.

But first: Timurid tiling patterns with 5-fold and 10-fold
quasisymmetry, and the astronomy pictures of the week!

If you listen to the news, you probably heard that NASA discovered an
enormous diffuse ring around Saturn.  They did it using the Spitzer
Space Telescope, a satellite equipped with a telescope that detects
infrared light.  In "week243" I showed you infrared light from the
first stars in the Universe, and in "week257" I talked about magnesium
and iron oxide dust emanating from the Red Rectangle.  Both of those
were discovered using the Spitzer.

Here's what the new ring would look like if you could see it:

1) Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA space telescope discovers largest
ring around Saturn, October 6, 2009,
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2009-150

As you probably heard, it dwarfs all the visible rings, and it's
tilted relative to them.  But even cooler is what the Spitzer Space
Telescope actually saw:

2) NASA, Big band of dust,
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitzer/multimedia/spitzer-20091007d.html

It's an edge-on view of the new ring.  It's fat: 20 Saturns thick.
And if you look carefully, you'll see that it has two layers, with a
bit of a gap in the middle.  According to the scientists who
discovered it, this is consistent with its origin:

3) Anne Verbiscer, Michael Skrutskie, and Doug Hamilton, Saturn's
largest ring, Nature, published online October 7, 2009.

The point is that this ring surrounds the orbit of Saturn's moon
Phoebe - a meteor-scarred hulk 100 kilometers across.  While Phoebe
looks like an asteroid, it's probably an interloper from the outer
Solar System, because it's made of ice.  But it's covered with a
layer of dark material.

The newly discovered ring seems to be made of this dark stuff, blasted
away from Phoebe by meteorite collisions.  And its discoverers say the
double-layered structure is characteristic of rings formed this way
from moons with inclined orbits.  (Jupiter also has some faint rings
like this, poetically known as the "gossamer rings".)

What's really exciting about this new ring is that it explains one of
the big mysteries of the Solar System: the dark spot on Saturn's moon
Iapetus!

Iapetus is mostly icy, but one side is covered with dark stuff...
probably cyanides and carbon-rich minerals.  Now it seems this stuff
was picked up from the newly discovered ring!  It seems to have landed
in lumps - mainly on the leading side of Iapetus.  You see, this moon
is locked in synchronous rotation with Saturn, so the front plows
through space and picks up debris, while the back stays clean.

Here's a closeup of some lumps of dark stuff on Iapetus, taken by the
Cassini probe:

4) NASA, Inky stains on a frozen moon, September 12, 2007,
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/photos/imagedetails/index.cfm?imageId=2733

If you want more, there's a great introduction to Saturn's rings
in this blog, followed by a nontechnical summary of the new paper
on the Phoebe ring:

5) Emily Lakdawalla, The Phoebe ring, The Planetary Society Blog,
October 14, 2009, http://planetary.org/blog/article/00002165/

As Lakdawalla points out, discovering a big ring was just the
beginning:

   So far, it's a cool result but it's sort of like stamp collecting -
   we discovered a new X and described it, done.  Where the paper gets
   really interesting is when the authors explore what happens to the
   particles in Phoebe's ring over time, something that you can model
   by writing down a few equations that describe the orbit of a
   particle, include Saturn, Phoebe, Iapetus, and Titan, include
   the masses, densities, and albedos of the particles, and the
   effects of incident sunlight.

   What happens to particles depends upon their size.  The biggest
   chunks, several centimeters in size or larger, don't really
   migrate anywhere, sticking around near Phoebe's orbit until
   they smack into something - each other or Phoebe.  The model
   simulation suggests that it would take more than the age of
   the solar system for half of the particles to be removed from
   the system by re-collision with Phoebe, so most of the biggest
   chunks are still out there somewhere in Phoebe's orbital space.

   What about smaller particles?  The article says "re-radiation
   of absorbed sunlight exerts an asymmetric force on dust grains,
   causing them to spiral in towards Saturn with a characteristic
   timescale of 1.5 x 10^5 r years, where r is the particle radius in
   micrometers.  This force brings all centimetre-sized and smaller
   material to Iapetus and Titan unless mutual particle collisions
   occur first.... Most material from 10 micrometres to centimetres
   in size ultimately hits Iapetus, with smaller percentages striking
   Hyperion and Titan."  This would be a slow process that has
   operated continuously since whenever Phoebe was captured into
   Saturn's orbit.  There might have been bursts of material delivered
   to Iapetus associated with some of the bigger impacts that have
   left such large scars on Phoebe, but they would have been blips
   above a steady background.

Next: tilings.  The science fiction writer Greg Egan is also a
professional programmer, and he's written a remarkable collection
of Java applets, which you can see on his website.  Here's the latest:

6) Greg Egan, Girih, http://www.gregegan.net/APPLETS/32/32.html

This program generates quasiperiodic tilings with approximate 10-fold
rotational symmetry using a method called "inflation".  The idea of
inflation is to take a collection of tiles and repeatedly subdivide
each one into smaller tiles from the same collection.   Egan's applet
shows the process of inflation at work: patterns zooming in endlessly!

Some of the math behind this is modern, but some goes back to the
Timurids: the dynasty founded by the famous conqueror Timur, also
known as Tamerlane.  By 1400, the Timurid empire was huge.  It
included most of central Asia, Iran, and Afghanistan, as well as
large parts of Pakistan, India, Mesopotamia and the Caucasus.  Its
capital was the magical city of Samarkand.

The Timurids raised the art of tiling to its highest peak.  Islamic
artists had already explored periodic tilings with most of the 17
mathematically possible "wallpaper groups" as symmetries - for more
on this, see my tour of the Alhambra in "week267".  What was left
to do?  Well, periodic tilings can have 2-fold, 3-fold, 4-fold,
or 6-fold rotational symmetry, but nothing else.  Notice the gap?
It's the number 5!  So that's what they tackled.

Precisely because you *can't* produce periodic tilings with 5-fold
rotational symmetry, it's a delightful artistic challenge to fool
the careless eye into thinking you've done just that.

In the 1970's, Penrose discovered quasiperiodic patterns with
approximate 5-fold symmetry - for example, patterns made of two
tiles, called "kites" and "darts":

* kite: a convex quadrilateral with interior angles of 2pi/5,
2pi/5, 2pi/5 and 4pi/5 as you march around it.

* dart: a nonconvex quadrilateral with interior angles of 2pi/5,
pi/5, 6pi/5 and pi/5.

The work of Penrose launched a huge investigation into quasiperiodic
tilings and quasicrystals.  With their eyes opened, modern scientists
saw how fascinating the old Timurid tilings were:

7) Peter J. Lu and Paul J. Steinhardt, Decagonal and quasi-crystalline
tilings in medieval Islamic architecture, Science 315 (2007), 1106ï¿½1110.
Also available at
http://www.physics.harvard.edu/~plu/publications/Science_315_1106_2007.pdf

Lu and Steinhardt described a set of 5 tiles which seem to underlie a
lot of Timurid designs:

* a regular pentagon with five interior angles of 3pi/5.

* a regular decagon with ten interior angles of 4pi/5.

* a rhombus with interior angles of 2pi/5, 3pi/5, 2pi/5, 3pi/5.

* an elongated hexagon with interior angles of 2pi/5, 4pi/5,
4pi/5, 2pi/5, 4pi/5, 4pi/5.

* a bow tie (non-convex hexagon) with interior angles of
2pi/5, 2pi/5, 6pi/5, 2pi/5, 2pi/5, 6pi/5.

All the edges of all these tiles have the same length.

Lu and Steinhardt call these "girih tiles".  But "girih" actually
means "strapwork": the braided bands that decorate the tiles in a lot
of this art.  Egan's applet uses three of these tiles: the decagon,
the elongated hexagon and the bowtie.  As you'll see on his webpage,
each can be subdivided into smaller decagons, hexagons and bowties.
And that's how "inflation" works.

Did the Timurid artists actually understand the process of inflation,
or the idea of a quasiperiodic tiling?  Seeking clues, scholars have
turned to the Topkapi Scroll, a kind of "how-to manual" for tiling
that resides in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul.  I would love to get
my paws on this color reproduction:

8) Gulru Necipoglu and Mohammad al-Asad, The Topkapi Scroll - Geometry
and Ornament in Islamic Architecture, Getty Publications, 1996.

I've put it on my wishlist at Amazon - but a used copy costs almost
$2000, so I'm not holding my breath.  For now, the best substitute
I've found is this beautiful article:

9) Peter R. Cromwell, The search for quasi-periodicity in Islamic
5-fold ornament, Math. Intelligencer 31 (2009), 36-56.
Also available at
http://www.springerlink.com/content/760261153n347478/?p=405b9dbf45ea4f4793a097b6e12dcb08pi=7

The Mathematical Intelligencer is a wonderful magazine put out by
Springer Verlag.  It's recently become available online - and to my
shock the above article is free!  Springer doesn't give much away,
so I can't help but fear this is an oversight on their part, soon to
be corrected.  So, grab a copy of this article *now*.

Cromwell argues that we shouldn't attribute too much modern mathematical
knowledge to the Timurid tile artists.  But the really great thing about
this article is the detailed information on how some of these tiling
patterns are made - including lots of pictures.  It repays repeated study.

Here's a less mathematical and more historical introduction to the
Timurid tile artists, also with lots of nice pictures:

10) Sebastian R. Prange, The tiles of infinity, Saudi Aramco World
(October-November 2009), 24-31.  Also available at
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200905/the.tiles.of.infinity.htm

You should also check out Craig Kaplan's work.  He's studied Kepler's
work on patterns built from decagons, and written software that
generates beautiful star patterns:

11) Craig Kaplan, The trouble with five, Plus Magazine 45 (December
2007), available at
http://plus.maths.org/issue45/features/kaplan/

12) Craig Kaplan, A meditation on Kepler's Aa, in Bridges 2006:
Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science, 2006, pp. 465-472.
Also available at http://plus.maths.org/issue45/features/kaplan/

13) Craig Kaplan, Taprats: computer generated Islamic star
patterns, http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/washington/taprats/

Together with David Salesin, he's also gone beyond the old masters by
studying tilings in spherical and hyperbolic geometry:

14) Craig S. Kaplan and David H. Salesin, Islamic star patterns in
absolute geometry, ACM Transactions on Graphics 23 (April 2004),
97-119.  Also available at
http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/papers/tog2004.html

Another key player in this business is Eric Broug:

15) Broug Ateliers: Islamic Geometric Design, http://www.broug.com/

Check out the nice image galleries!  I bought this book, which
explains how to make these patterns yourself:

16) Eric Broug, Islamic Geometric Patterns (book with CD-ROM), Thames
and Hudson, 2008.

I'll list a bunch more references below, for when I retire and get
time to devote myself more deeply to this subject.  But now - on to
Corfu!

Last time I said a bit about what I learned in Ashtekar and Rovelli's
courses.  Now I'd like to talk about some other things I learned in
Corfu - some things I find even more tantalizing.

In "week232", I explained how gravity in 3d spacetime automatically
contains within it a theory of point particles, and how a 4d analogue
of 3d gravity automatically contains within it a theory of string-like
objects.  This 4d theory is called BF theory.  Like 3d gravity, it
describes a world where spacetime is flat.  So, it's boring compared
to full-fledged 4d gravity - so boring that we can understand it much
better!  In particular, unlike 4d gravity, we understand a lot about
what happens when you take quantum mechanics into account in 4d BF
theory.

But when you remove from a surface from spacetime in 4d BF theory, it
springs to life!  In particular, the surface acts a bit like the
worldsheet of a string.  It doesn't behave like the strings in
ordinary string theory: its action is not equal to its area.  But
Winston Fairbairn has been thinking about this a lot:

17) Winston J. Fairbairn and Alejandro Perez, Extended matter coupled
to BF theory, Phys. Rev. D78:024013, 2008.  Also available as
arXiv:0709.4235.

18) Winston J. Fairbairn, On gravitational defects, particles and
strings, JHEP 0809:126, 2008.  Also available as arXiv:0807.3188.

19) Winston J. Fairbairn, Karim Noui and Francesco Sardelli, Canonical
analysis of algebraic string actions, available as arXiv:0908.0953.

And it turns out that if we impose the constraints on BF theory that
turn it into general relativity, we obtain the usual Nambu-Goto
string, where the action is the area!  However, the last of the three
papers above shows there are some subtle differences.

I need to think about this a lot more.  It was always my hope to
reconcile string theory and loop quantum gravity, and this could be
the way.  Of course, reconciling two things that don't work doesn't
necessarily give one that does.  A pessimist might say that combining
string theory and loop quantum gravity is like combining epicycles and
aether.  But I'm optimistic.  Something interesting is going here.

In a different but possibly related direction, Aristide Baratin gave
a talk on recent work he's been doing with Derek Wise and Laurent
Freidel.  You can get a feel for this work from this paper:

20) Aristide Baratin, Derek K. Wise, 2-Group representations for spin
foams, to appear in proceedings of the XXV Max Born Symposium:
The Planck Scale, Wroclaw, Poland.  Also available as
arXiv:0910.1542.

In "week235" I mentioned an amazing paper by Baratin and Freidel
called "Hidden quantum gravity in 4d Feynman diagrams: emergence of
spin foams".  They described a spin foam model that acts just like
4-dimensional flat Minkowski spacetime: couple it to interacting
point particles, and you get the usual Feynman diagrams described
in a new way!

The big news is that this spin foam model comes from the
representations of a 2-group, instead of a group.  Namely, the
Poincare 2-group.  This is a 2-group I invented which has Lorentz
transformations as objects and translations as endomorphisms of any
object.

The Poincare 2-group spin foam model was first studied by Crane,
Sheppeard and Yetter.  Baratin, Freidel, Wise and I spent a long time
developing the theory of infinite-dimensional representations of
2-groups needed to make this model precise - see "week274" for more on
all this.  Now the details are falling into place, and a beautiful
picture is emerging.

I should admit that the paper by Baratin and Wise deals with the
Euclidean rather the Lorentzian version of this picture.  I hope this
is merely because the representation theory of the "Euclidean 2-group"
is more tractable than that of the Poincare 2-group.  I hope everything
generalizes to the Lorentzian case.

A lot to think about.

To wrap up, here's a big list of references from Cromwell's paper on
tilings I hadn't known so much had been written about this subject!

21) M. Arik and M. Sancak, Turkish-Islamic art and Penrose
tilings, Balkan Physics Letters 15 (1 Jul 2007) 1-12.

22) J. Bonner, Three traditions of self-similarity in fourteenth
and fifteenth century Islamic geometric ornament, Proc.
ISAMA/Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science,
(Granada, 2003), eds. R. Sarhangi and N. Friedman, 2003, pp. 1-12.

23) J. Bonner, Islamic Geometric Patterns: Their Historical Development
and Traditional Methods of Derivation, unpublished manuscript.

24) J. Bourgoin, Les Elements de l'Art Arabe: Le Trait des Entrelacs,
Firmin-Didot, 1879. Plates reprinted in Arabic Geometric Pattern and
Design, Dover Publications, 1973.

25) J.-M. Castira, Arabesques: Art Decoratif au Maroc, ACR Edition,
1996.

26) J.-M. Castira, Zellijs, muqarnas and quasicrystals, Proc. ISAMA,
(San Sebastian, 1999), eds. N. Friedman and J. Barrallo, 1999, pp.
99-104.

27) G. M. Fleurent, Pentagon and decagon designs in Islamic art,
Fivefold Symmetry, ed. I. Hargittai, World Scientific, 1992, pp.
263-281.

28) B. Grunbaum and G. C. Shephard, Tilings and Patterns, W. H.
Freeman, 1987.

29) E. H. Hankin, On some discoveries of the methods of design employed
in Mohammedan art, J. Society of Arts 53 (1905) 461-477.

30) E. H. Hankin, The Drawing of Geometric Patterns in Saracenic Art,
Memoirs of the Archaeological Society of India, no 15, Government of
India, 1925.

31) E. H. Hankin, Examples of methods of drawing geometrical arabesque
patterns, Math. Gazette 12 (1925), 370-373.

32) E. H. Hankin, Some difficult Saracenic designs II, Math. Gazette
18 (1934), 165-168.

33) E. H. Hankin, Some difficult Saracenic designs III, Math. Gazette
20 (1936), 318-319.

34) A. J. Lee, Islamic star patterns, Muqarnas IV: An Annual on
Islamic Art and Architecture, ed. O. Grabar, Leiden, 1987, pp. 182.197.

35) P. J. Lu and P. J. Steinhardt, Response to Comment on "Decagonal
and quasi-crystalline tilings in medieval Islamic architecture",
Science 318 (30 Nov 2007), 1383.

36). F. Lunnon and P. Pleasants, Quasicrystallographic tilings, J.
Math. Pures et Appliques 66 (1987), 217-263.

37) E. Makovicky, 800-year old pentagonal tiling from Maragha, Iran,
and the new varieties of aperiodic tiling it inspired, Fivefold
Symmetry, ed. I. Hargittai, World Scientific, 1992, pp. 67-86.

38) E. Makovicky, Comment on "Decagonal and quasi-crystalline tilings
in medieval Islamic architecture", Science 318 (30 Nov 2007), 1383.

39) E. Makovicky and P. Fenoll Hach-Alm, Mirador de Lindaraja: Islamic
ornamental patterns based on quasi-periodic octagonal lattices
in Alhambra, Granada, and Alcazar, Sevilla, Spain, Boletin Sociedad
Espanola Mineralogia 19 (1996), 1-26.

40) E. Makovicky and P. Fenoll Hach-Alm, The stalactite dome of the
Sala de Dos Hermanas - an octagonal tiling?, Boletin Sociedad Espanola
Mineralogia 24 (2001), 1-21.

41) E. Makovicky, F. Rull Pirez and P. Fenoll Hach-Alm, Decagonal
patterns in the Islamic ornamental art of Spain and Morocco, Boletmn
Sociedad Espanola Mineralogia 21 (1998), 107-127.

42) J. Rigby, A Turkish interlacing pattern and the golden ratio,
Mathematics in School 34 no 1 (2005), 16-24.

43) J. Rigby, Creating Penrose-type Islamic interlacing patterns,
Proc. Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science,
(London, 2006), eds. R. Sarhangi and J. Sharp, 2006, pp. 41-48.

44) F. Rull Pirez, La nocion de cuasi-cristal a traves de los mosaicos
arabes, Boletin Sociedad Espanola Mineralogia 10 (1987), 291-298.

45) P. W. Saltzman, Quasi-periodicity in Islamic ornamental design,
Nexus VII: Architecture and Mathematics, ed. K. Williams, 2008, pp.
153-168.

46) M. Senechal, Quasicrystals and Geometry, Cambridge Univ. Press,
1995.

47) M. Senechal and J. Taylor, Quasicrystals: The view from Les
Houches, Math. Intelligencer 12 (1990) 54-64.

Reference 24, the book by Bourgoin, is a classic - and the Dover version
is probably quite affordable.  Cromwell also lists some more websites:

48) ArchNet. Library of digital images of Islamic architecture,
http://archnet.org/library/images/

49) E. Harriss and D. Frettlvh, Tilings Encyclopedia,
http://tilings.math.uni-bielefeld.de/

50) P. J. Lu and P. J. Steinhardt, Decagonal and quasi-crystalline
tilings in medieval Islamic architecture, supporting online material,
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/315/5815/1106/DC1

51) D. Wade, Pattern in Islamic Art: The Wade Photo-Archive,
http://www.patterninislamicart.com/

The last one is a huge treasure trove of images!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote of the Week:

For lust of knowing what should not be known, we take the Golden Road
to Samarkand. - James Elroy Flecker

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous issues of "This Week's Finds" and other expository articles on
mathematics and physics, as well as some of my research papers, can be
obtained at

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/

For a table of contents of all the issues of This Week's Finds, try

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/twfcontents.html

A simple jumping-off point to the old issues is available at

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/twfshort.html

If you just want the latest issue, go to

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/this.week.html


author: Robert L. Oldershaw

subject: Re: This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics (Week 281)

text:
On Oct 22, 11:09ï¿½am, "Robert L. Oldershaw" <[email]>
wrote:

See latest issue of Nature [Oct. 28] for a very interesting report by
the FERMI gamma-ray team.  Classical General Relativity vindicated;
"spin foams" and most "quantum gravity" speculations AWOL.

Robert L. Oldershaw
www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw


text:
On Oct 20, 3:18ï¿½pm, [email] (John Baez)
wrote:

Is there any way to test these hypotheses empirically in a definitive
manner, i.e., via unique predictions that are feasible, quantitative,
and non-"adjustable" ?

In light of the Nielsen/Ninomiya "excursions", is not some tangible
connection to physical reality a good idea for the health of
theoretical
physics?

RLO
www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw


author: jenmoocat

subject:
Which is better:  equal or unequal sample sizes for tests of
	proportion

text:
We are having an argument at work and don't have the statistical chops
to back up my gut instincts.
Hopefully, someone could help me determine if I am totally offbase/
misremembering/or just wrong.

I have a sample of 400 observations from one type of respondent.
This is group A
I have a sample of 8000 observations from a different type of
respondent.   This is group B

Getting group A responses is expensive.
Getting group B responses is cheap.


author: Paige Miller

subject:
Re: Which is better: equal or unequal sample sizes for tests of
	proportion

text:
On Feb 24, 1:49 pm, jenmoocat <[email]> wrote:

Having different sample sizes in the two groups does not bias the
results.

Having different sample sizes in the two groups causes different
precision in the two different groups (i.e. you know the answer with
much lower variance in the group with 8000).

Bias does not equal precision. Bias would mean that you estimate of
proportion or mean is going to be, on average, too high (or too low).
As an example, if your data collection method or analysis method
always adds 10 to a variable's value, that would be a biased test.
Your estimates of means and proportions from these data will not be
biased (indeed, I can't think of a situation where means and
proportions are biased, but maybe there is one).

If you could design the ideal test, all things being equal, you would
design a test where you have the exact same number of data points in
each group. In your case, all things are not equal, and so you were
not able to collect as many data points in group A as in group B.
Given this situation, the best thing you can do is to use all of the
data in your statistical tests. (It's not as good as the textbook
theory says it can be when all things are equal, but you can't get to
the textbook theory position in this case).


author: Tony Lance

subject: Re: Big Bertha Thing blogs

text:
Big Bertha Thing lightcraft
Cosmic Ray Series
Possible Real World System Constructs
http://web.onetel.com/~tonylance/liteship.html
14K Web page
Astrophysics net ring Access site
Newsgroup Reviews including uk.rec.gardening

Lightcraft powered by lasers and microwaves

 v1.1
 15 sep 99
 greg goebel
 public domain

Contents List:-
1.LASER LIGHTCRAFT
2.MICROWAVE LIGHTCRAFT
3.LASER LIGHTCRAFT IN TEST
4.COMMENTS, SOURCES, & REVISION HISTORY

Big Bertha Thing property

All pages are handcoded in HTML level 2.
No pages are proprietary copyrighted HTML code copies.
Such copies would be illegal.
Such are in restraint of trade.
Such are theft of intellectual property.
Such close down the open web.

All refugees from such are welcome.
Such delete downloaded pages.
Such download twice regardless.
Such switch off the text only option.
Such demand to be the default browser.
Such yield control not even to power down.

Tony Lance
[email]

Big Bertha Thing corporate

1.  What happened to the guys on the most wanted list?
2.  Corporate America opened fire with an industrial
      strength denial of service attack.
3.  It was complete with worm virus.
4.  150K mailbox postings.
5.  Daily basis.
6.  Unlimited smtp mailboxes and names.
7.  Ownership of smtp mailbox provider.
8.  This is a proprietorial interest in Usenet newsgroup
     postings.
9.  Big Bertha is now on the list.
10. A sustainable defense would be nice.
11. When the guns fall silent, the battle will be over.
12. There were enough shells for 42 months, without
     recycling.

Big Bertha Thing binary

The defense is of course binary; the old one two.
You need two filters.
The first blocks mailbox entry and strips out the from
mailbox address, for disclosure.
It uses mailbox address or sufix to select postings.
The second uses partial strings.
Any portion of the mailbox address or subject line to
select postings.
It flags them as deleted and moves them to the trashcan.
The trashcan auto-deletes before the mailbox fills up.
Lastly you need vacation auto-reply and a mailing list,
with an smtp mailbox.
The replies from auto reply tell you which mailboxes are
closed.
The mailing list replies confirms which mailboxes are open.

NB There may be another case with the same protaganist:-
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3e10cd57.0311261707.35b8cf51%40posting.google.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain


author: Stimpy

subject: Re: Big Bertha Thing blogs

text:
Tony Lance wrote:

<stuff deleted>

Does anyone know what all these 'Big Bertha Thing' postings are about?  They
appear every month and appear to be unintelligable garbage...


author: Alek

subject: Re: Big Bertha Thing blogs

text:
It is apparently the new requirements for Revenue Protection Inspectors In
TfL.
Applicants are required to collect the full set and decipher the hidden
message before their application will be taken  any further.....!


author: [redacted]

subject: Language of Thought

text:
Putting this IN context:  This was about the ability of two
  lowland gorillas (Koko and Michael) to communicate (with each
  other and with people) using American Sign Language.

  How about if: Koko wanted to get the keys (out of reach) in order
  to get out.  She asked Mike for a stick.  Mike gave her the stick.
  She was discovered using the stick to take the keys off of the hook
  on the far wall.  When asked how she got the stick, she lied, "I don't
  know." I don't think that she or Mike have ever been punished. (How
  WOULD one punish a 450 pound gorilla?)

  There are many more . . .

  Does American Sign Language satisfy the requirement for "language?"

  How is thinking defined?  Does any of the above indicate thought?
  If it is insufficient, scientific or anecdotal information can be
  supplied.

  As I stated before, there are some who WILL not accept the
  intellect and abilities of other animals, even with the best
  evidence.

  This, too, may miss the point.  The first goal is to understand
  ourselves.  If the "understanding" means COMPLETE understanding,
  then we are all doomed to failure.  If understanding another
  species enhances our understanding of ourselves, fine.


author: Jacob Galley

subject: Re: Language of Thought

text:
[email] writes:

Okay.  I was just pointing out that you shouldn't put "thinking" before
communication.  Communicating through a symbolic language is a highly
specialized and advanced behavior.

Yes, ASL is a natural human langauge, at least as used by humans.  I
don't know the details of how these gorillas and the other chimpanzees
used ASL well enough to argue whether or not they used it like humans
do.

I don't pretend to know.  'Thought' is a concept based upon our
intuitions and everyday experience.  It can mean different things in
different contexts.  At our present level of understanding, it's value
is more connotative than denotative of a specific process.

That's not me.  I just hesitate to use these vague terms.

I think that Darwin meant that whatever processes make the human human
supervene on the biology/cognition of primates in general.

Jake.


author: James Magnuson

subject: Re: Language of Thought

text:
In article <[email]> [email] writes:

using a VERY SMALL SUBSET of ASL.

how about if i write a computer program that says "i need a password
open this file  -- please get it for me."  then suppose that i ask, "how
did you get the key?" and the computer program replies "i don't know..."

what sort of intentions do we attribute to the computer program?  that it
is lying?

(this is rather an extreme and hasty example, but the leap you have to
make between the symbols for "i don't know" and koko's motivations isn't
small -- there is no direct evidence that koko was lying...)

the problem is, the best evidence is not very good.

as i recall from a class i took a few years ago, laura petito and others
have pointed out that koko and other primates do learn to use small
systems of symbols.  however, their ability to combine them productively
is extremely limited.  i think someone posted a list of references on
this topic not so very long ago...  in any case, perhaps someone up-to-date
on this debate could post something?

jim


author: Greg Heinrich

subject: Microwave Therapy ... what do you reckon Steph and others?

text:
On "A Current Affair" last night on Australian television, there
was a big story about microwave therapy (administed via the
Tronado machine) being used to treat cancer.

A respected oncologist in Perth, Dr John Holt, has been using
the controversial treatment for several years, and has apparently
cured metastatic cancers.  Holt is a publicity-shy doctor in his late
70s who is not into self-promotion and who charges a modest amount for
the
treatment.  The treatment consists of an infusion of glucose blocking
agent
and then an infusion of insulin to lower blood sugar.  The patient
then
receives microwave therapy.

There were a number of people with "terminal" cancer who testified
they
had been cured on A Current Affair.  One of these patients also
has put her story online here:
Page 4 of this document
http://www.cancersupportwa.org.au/MediaBoard/newsletter/February2002.pdf

Whilst I am usually skeptical of obvious quackery, Dr Holt seems to be
a genuine, respectable, well-qualified oncologist.  He's also the
former director of the Institute of Oncology and Radiology in Western
Australia.

Is microwave therapy likely to be beneficial for cancer sufferers in
your
opinion?

Greg


author: Yu

subject: Re: Microwave Therapy ... what do you reckon Steph and others?

text:
What you think about that? http://www.celsion.com/breastcancer.htm ,
http://www.celsion.com/technology.htm

Celsion's core technology employs focused heat to treat cancer and other
diseases.  The core technology was initially developed and patented by
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) for the "Strategic Defense
Initiative."  Celsion has worked closely with MIT to adapt this technology
to focus heat at cancer cells, killing them while simultaneously avoiding
damage to healthy tissue.

Yuri Eisenstark

"Greg Heinrich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Steph

text:
"Greg Heinrich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It's just a way of heating cancers, and has been used for many years.
There is no evidence that it can cure cancers however, even if he is a nice
old gent.

I had microwave hyperthermia as part of a research project once. It's bloody
unpleasant.........


author: Peter Moran

text:
"Greg Heinrich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

After some Medline and Google searching, this testimonial seems to be the
only evidence that can be found anywhere as to the effectiveness of his
methods.    I find it odd that a respected doctor having free access to the
technology for demonstrating cancer cure/remissions, and with already so
many publications in conventional and 'alternative' journals to his credit,
should allow such a furor to develop while having so little showing as to
his treatment's usefulness.

It does not make sense.

Peter Moran


author: Mike Radcliffe

text:
"Greg Heinrich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I've nurseda few of Dr Holt's patients, all dead now. They were all made
very
ill by the experience and a few who flew in from the eastern states felt
cheated.
It is not cheap.
They all know someone who met someone in the waiting room of his clinic who
 knew someone else who was cured by the tronado machine. Sound famliar?
There was great interest in this treatment in the 1980s but, as Steph says,
it all
 came to nought as many things like this do.Looks good in theory, it just
doesn't
work. My amazement is that these 'treatments' are allowed to carry on by
'respected doctors'.


author: J

text:
Steph wrote:

Well according to posters on m.h.a., the "nice old gent" charges $1,000.00 for a
3 week treatment (over and above whatever the patient's insurance pays).

Also he injects glucose blocking agent
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/1744.asp
False negative on PETs?
J


text:
Peter Moran wrote:

  http://tinyurl.com/3m5bv
The National Cancer Institute (NCI) is currently sponsoring three phase II
clinical trials using whole-body heat therapy in combination with chemotherapy
drugs in treating patients with advanced melanoma, advanced sarcoma, and
metastatic and recurring lymphoma."

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00003135
(don't know where the other 2 are) but this one seems to say Phase II
http://cancer.duke.edu/hyperthermia/research.asp

http://www.vci.org/inflamma.htm
These preliminary results show that thermoradiotherapy should be considered as
a treatment modality for inflammatory breast cancer."

J


author: madiba

text:
Mike Radcliffe <[email]> wrote:

Maybe the old guy has a mistress, or is just battling to make ends meet
and needs the extra cash?  Much as I love Oz, the number of senior
citizens we saw 'living' in camping centres tells me that all is not
well with your pension system..


text:
J <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Firstly that's $1,000 in Aussie money, which is about US$700, for a
supposedly
curative therapy.  I've heard chemo, which is a curative therapy in
only 5% of cancers, can cost many thousands of dollars over the course
of patient's illness.  If Dr Holt's therapy works, that's a relatively
inexpensive price-tag.

Secondly, Dr Holt has 26 medical letters after his name. For more than
a decade he was in charge of Western Australia's main cancer
institute.  He sounds like he should know what he's talking about.

I understand your cynicism about therapies that are not currently
mainstream.
However, the story which aired in Australia also featured testimonies
of supposedly cured terminal patients.  It was very, very convincing.
Patients with mets everywhere suddenly went into remission, sometimes
complete remission, after experiencing Dr Holt's treatment.  These are
patients who have inoperable tumours and who have been unresponsive to
chemo and radiotherapy.  Dr Holt's remission rate seems to be much
higher than the rate of spontaneous remission.  Most oncologists will
never seen a spontaneous remission in their life-times, yet Dr Holt
has seen several.

After the story broke, Dr Holt has been overwhelmed with hundreds of
patients turning up at his surgery and has had to send most of them
home (he can only see 12 a day).  As a result of Holt's story
receiving nationwide coverage, it looks like the medical establishment
will be undertaking new clinical trials in the therapy to find out if
Holt has something to offer ...

Greg


author: Matti Narkia

text:
Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:13:31 -0400 in article <[email]>
J <[email]> wrote:
Whole body hyperthermia is very tough (at least psychologically) for the
patient even without chemotherapy, if temperatures approaching or exceeding
40 degrees Celcius are aimed at. I know, I've been there :-). Therefore the
clinics, where whole body hyperthermia treatments have been experimentally
done with temperatures like 41-42 degrees Celcius, often in combination with
chemotherapy, have frequently used general anesthesia. I didn't see general
anesthesia mentioned on the above pages. Perhaps they don't aim at so high
temperatures that they would require general anesthesia?


text:
"madiba" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
made

You obviously missed the whole point of the Australian way of life. Many
people's lifelong ambition is to reach retirement, buy a camper and travel
the continent. The weather is so good you don't actually need a house
because you can do all your living and entertaining out doors and many
people live in caravan parks in the north during winter and their second
home caravan in the south in summer.
  Not my cup of tea but many people love it. It's like a whole alternative
society.
MIKE


text:
"Greg Heinrich" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
late
for
blocking
http://www.cancersupportwa.org.au/MediaBoard/newsletter/February2002.pdf
be
Western
nice
$1,000.00 for a

But if it doesn't, and it doesn't, it's pretty expensive.
As for the cost of chemo, nobody should prescribe it or take it (just like
anything else) unless the "questions" have been asked and answered.

If letters were intelligence, there would be some clever people in the
world.....

He's at liberty to show the evidence at any time, and to thereby help many
more than 12 people per day.

Steph MB ChB, MRCP(UK), FRCR, LMCC, FRCPC, but that's only 24
letters..........so I'm 2 letters more stupid I guess


text:
Matti Narkia wrote:

This one's more current (and both are recruiting)
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00061867 (prostate cancer - Phase I)
Approximately 50 patients will be accrued for this study.
They both say " several degrees above body temperature"
The latter one mentions "No prior therapy that resulted in permanent reduction of
pain response (e.g., prior surgery, regional or local anesthetic)"
Might that mean they're also looking for pain reduction?

And yours was for?
And was it worth it? ...definitively prove something to you?

Perhaps.
I'm not advocating these - just posting them.
J


text:
Mike Radcliffe <[email]> wrote:

These campsites looked very permanent, but okay that could explain
things.


text:
Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:59:33 -0400 in article <[email]>
J <[email]> wrote:

It was a part of adjunctive therapy for cancer. If used alone, without
chemotherapy, it's not likely be curative with survivable temperatures.
I did it three times. The heating was stopped every time, when 40 degrees of
Celsius was reached. Although the therapy was at first psychologically
difficult to tolerate, it got easier every time. And afterwards I noticed an
immunological reaction in the tumor areas, and an increased feeling of
well-being. Still, definitely not a first line treatment.

If temperatures higher than 40 degrees Celsius are used in combination with
chemotherapy, some fatalities will probably start to occur, so it's
relatively high risk therapy.


text:
Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:59:33 +0300 in article
<[email]> Matti Narkia
<[email]> wrote:

There are two kinds of whole-body hyperthermia: a mild whole-body
hyperthermia, which uses temperatures <= 40 degrees Celsius and tries mainly
to achieve an immunological reaction (hopefully against cancer), and a high
temperature whole-body hyperthermia or extreme whole-body hyperthermia,
which uses temperatures >= 41.8 degrees Celsius and has some curative
ambitions if used together with chemotherapy and/or radiation. The therapy
I've had was the former, the mild one. Below some references about the
latter one, the extreme whole-body hyperthermia:

1:  Hildebrandt B, Drager J, Kerner T, Deja M, Loffel J, Stroszczynski C,
Ahlers O, Felix R, Riess H, Wust P.
 Whole-body hyperthermia in the scope of von Ardenne's systemic cancer
multistep therapy (sCMT) combined with chemotherapy in patients with
metastatic colorectal cancer: a phase I/II study.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2004 May;20(3):317-33.
PMID: 15204528 [PubMed - in process]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15204528>

2:  Douwes F, BogoviC J, Douwes O, Migeod F, Grote C.
 Whole-body hyperthermia in combination with platinum-containing drugs in
patients with recurrent ovarian cancer.
Int J Clin Oncol. 2004 Apr;9(2):85-91.
PMID: 15108039 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15108039>

3:  Bruns I, Kohlmann T, Wiedemann GJ, Bakhshandeh A.
 [Evaluation of the therapeutic benefit of 41.8 degrees C whole body
hyperthermia plus ifosfamide, carboplatin and etoposide (ICE) for patients
with malignant pleural mesothelioma using the Modified Brunner-Score (MBS)]
Pneumologie. 2004 Apr;58(4):210-6. German.
PMID: 15098157 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15098157>

4:  Hegewisch-Becker S, Braun K, Otte M, Corovic A, Atanackovic D, Nierhaus
A, Hossfeld DK, Pantel K.
 Effects of whole body hyperthermia (41.8 degrees C) on the frequency of
tumor cells in the peripheral blood of patients with advanced malignancies.
Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jun;9(6):2079-84.
PMID: 12796371 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12796371>

5:  Kerner T, Hildebrandt B, Ahlers O, Deja M, Riess H, Draeger J, Wust P,
Gerlach H.
 Anaesthesiological experiences with whole body hyperthermia.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2003 Jan-Feb;19(1):1-12.
PMID: 12519707 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12519707>

6:  Westermann AM, Wiedemann GJ, Jager E, Jager D, Katschinski DM, Knuth A,
Vorde Sive Vording PZ, Van Dijk JD, Finet J, Neumann A, Longo W, Bakhshandeh
A, Tiggelaar CL, Gillis W, Bailey H, Peters SO, Robins HI; Systemic
Hyperthermia Oncologic Working Group.
 A Systemic Hyperthermia Oncologic Working Group trial. Ifosfamide,
carboplatin, and etoposide combined with 41.8 degrees C whole-body
hyperthermia for metastatic soft tissue sarcoma.
Oncology. 2003;64(4):312-21.
PMID: 12759526 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12759526>

7:  Atanackovic D, Nierhaus A, Neumeier M, Hossfeld DK, Hegewisch-Becker S.
 41.8 degrees C whole body hyperthermia as an adjunct to chemotherapy
induces prolonged T cell activation in patients with various malignant
diseases.
Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2002 Dec;51(11-12):603-13. Epub 2002 Oct 18.
PMID: 12439605 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12439605Z

8:  Hegewisch-Becker S, Gruber Y, Corovic A, Pichlmeier U, Atanackovic D,
Nierhaus A, Hossfeld DK.
 Whole-body hyperthermia (41.8 degrees C) combined with bimonthly
oxaliplatin, high-dose leucovorin and 5-fluorouracil 48-hour continuous
infusion in pretreated metastatic colorectal cancer: a phase II study.
Ann Oncol. 2002 Aug;13(8):1197-204.
PMID: 12181242 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12181242>

9:  van der Zee J.
 Heating the patient: a promising approach?
Ann Oncol. 2002 Aug;13(8):1173-84. Review.
PMID: 12181239 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12181242>

10:  Hildebrandt B, Wust P, Ahlers O, Dieing A, Sreenivasa G, Kerner T,
Felix R, Riess H.
 The cellular and molecular basis of hyperthermia.
Crit Rev Oncol Hematol. 2002 Jul;43(1):33-56. Review.
PMID: 12098606 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12098606>

11:  Vertree RA, Leeth A, Girouard M, Roach JD, Zwischenberger JB.
 Whole-body hyperthermia: a review of theory, design and application.
Perfusion. 2002 Jul;17(4):279-90. Review.
PMID: 12139385 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12139385>

12:  Sawaji Y, Sato T, Takeuchi A, Hirata M, Ito A.
 Anti-angiogenic action of hyperthermia by suppressing gene expression and
production of tumour-derived vascular endothelial growth factor in vivo and
in vitro.
Br J Cancer. 2002 May 20;86(10):1597-603.
PMID: 12085210 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12085210>

13:  Kerner T, Deja M, Ahlers O, Hildebrandt B, Dieing A, Riess H, Wust P,
Gerlach H.
 Monitoring arterial blood pressure during whole body hyperthermia.
Acta Anaesthesiol Scand. 2002 May;46(5):561-6.
PMID: 12027851 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12027851>

14:  Kraybill WG, Olenki T, Evans SS, Ostberg JR, O'Leary KA, Gibbs JF,
Repasky EA.
 A phase I study of fever-range whole body hyperthermia (FR-WBH) in patients
with advanced solid tumours: correlation with mouse models.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2002 May-Jun;18(3):253-66.
PMID: 12028640 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12028640>

15:  Sagowski C, Jaehne M, Kehrl W, Hegewisch-Becker S, Wenzel S, Panse J,
Nierhaus A.
 Tumor oxygenation under combined whole-body-hyperthermia and
polychemotherapy in a case of recurrent carcinoma of the oral cavity.
Eur Arch Otorhinolaryngol. 2002 Jan;259(1):27-31.
PMID: 11954922 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12028640>

16:  Xi L, Tekin D, Bhargava P, Kukreja RC.
 Whole body hyperthermia and preconditioning of the heart: basic concepts,
complexity, and potential mechanisms.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2001 Sep-Oct;17(5):439-55. Review.
PMID: 11587081 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11587081>

17:  Saga T, Sakahara H, Nakamoto Y, Sato N, Ishimori T, Mamede M, Kobayashi
H, Masunaga S, Sasai K, Kuroki M, Konishi J.
 Enhancement of the therapeutic outcome of radio-immunotherapy by
combination with whole-body mild hyperthermia.
Eur J Cancer. 2001 Jul;37(11):1429-34.
PMID: 11435076 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11435076>

18:  Hegewisch-Becker S, Hossfeld DK.
 [Addition of hyperthermia. Heat potentiates cancer therapy]
MMW Fortschr Med. 2001 Jun 21;143(25):28-32. German.
PMID: 11468993 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11468993>

19:  Westermann AM, Grosen EA, Katschinski DM, Jager D, Rietbroek R, Schink
JC, Tiggelaar CL, Jager E, Zum Vorde sive Vording P, Neuman A, Knuth A, Van
Dijk JD, Wiedemann GJ, Robins HI.
 A pilot study of whole body hyperthermia and carboplatin in
platinum-resistant ovarian cancer.
Eur J Cancer. 2001 Jun;37(9):1111-7.
PMID: 11378341 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11378341>

20:  Feyerabend T, Wiedemann GJ, Steeves R.
 Advanced non-seminomatous germ cell cancer of the testis with brain
metastases: feasibility of additional brain irradiation and whole body
hyperthermia plus chemotherapy.
Oncol Rep. 2001 Mar-Apr;8(2):219-23.
PMID: 11182030 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11182030>

21:  Wehner H, von Ardenne A, Kaltofen S.
 Whole-body hyperthermia with water-filtered infrared radiation:
technical-physical aspects and clinical experiences.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2001 Jan-Feb;17(1):19-30.
PMID: 11212877 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11212877>

22:  Sagowski C, Kehrl W, Hegewisch-Becker S, Wenzel S, Jaehne M, Panse J,
Nierhaus A.
 [Tumor oxygenation in combined whole body hyperthermia and
polychemotherapy.
Studies exemplified by recurrent carcinoma of the mouth cavity]
HNO. 2000 Dec;48(12):949-54. German.
PMID: 11196098 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11196098>

23:  Wust P, Riess H, Hildebrandt B, Loffel J, Deja M, Ahlers O, Kerner T,
von Ardenne A, Felix R.
 Feasibility and analysis of thermal parameters for the
whole-body-hyperthermia system IRATHERM-2000.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2000 Jul-Aug;16(4):325-39.
PMID: 10949129 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10949129>

24:  Bakhshandeh A, Bruns I, Eberhardt K, Wiedemann GJ.
 [Chemotherapy in combination with whole-body hyperthermia in advanced
malignant pleural mesothelioma]
Dtsch Med Wochenschr. 2000 Mar 17;125(11):317-9. Review. German.
PMID: 10761473 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10761473>

25:  Gerke P, Filejski W, Robins HI, Wiedemann GJ, Steinhoff J.
 Nephrotoxicity of ifosfamide, carboplatin and etoposide (ICE) alone or
combined with extracorporeal or radiant-heat-induced whole-body
hyperthermia.
J Cancer Res Clin Oncol. 2000 Mar;126(3):173-7.
PMID: 10741912 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10741912>

26:  Kerner T, Deja M, Ahlers O, Loffel J, Hildebrandt B, Wust P, Gerlach H,
Riess H.
 Whole body hyperthermia: a secure procedure for patients with various
malignancies?
Intensive Care Med. 1999 Sep;25(9):959-65.
PMID: 10501752 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10501752>

27:  Mazokhin VN, Kolmakov DN, Lucheyov NA, Gelvich EA, Troshin II.
 A HF EM installation allowing simultaneous whole body and deep local EM
hyperthermia.
Int J Hyperthermia. 1999 Jul-Aug;15(4):309-29.
PMID: 10458570 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10458570>

28:  Katschinski DM, Wiedemann GJ, Longo W, d'Oleire FR, Spriggs D, Robins
HI.
 Whole body hyperthermia cytokine induction: a review, and unifying
hypothesis for myeloprotection in the setting of cytotoxic therapy.
Cytokine Growth Factor Rev. 1999 Jun;10(2):93-7. Review.
PMID: 10743501 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10743501>

29:  Katschinski DM, Benndorf R, Wiedemann GJ, Mulkerin DL, Touhidi R,
Robins HI.
 Heat shock protein antibodies in sarcoma patients undergoing 41.8 degrees C
whole body hyperthermia.
J Immunother. 1999 Jan;22(1):67-70.
PMID: 9924701 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9924701>

30:  Katschinski DM, Jelkmann W, Wiedemann GJ, Mentzel M, Mulkerin DL,
Touhidi R, Robins HI.
 Dynamic changes in serum erythropoietin levels in solid tumour patients
undergoing 41.8 degrees C whole body hyperthermia and/or chemotherapy.
Int J Hyperthermia. 1997 Nov-Dec;13(6):563-9.
PMID: 9421738 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9421738>

31:  Robins HI, D'Oleire F, Grosen E, Spriggs D.
 Rationale and clinical status of 41.8 degrees C systemic hyperthermia tumor
necrosis factor, and melphalan for neoplastic disease.
Anticancer Res. 1997 Jul-Aug;17(4B):2891-4. Review.
PMID: 9329556 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9329556>

32:  Katschinski DM, Wiedemann GJ, Mentzel M, Mulkerin DL, Touhidi R, Robins
HI.
 Optimization of chemotherapy administration for clinical 41.8 degrees C
whole body hyperthermia.
Cancer Lett. 1997 May 19;115(2):195-9.
PMID: 9149124 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9149124>

33:  Kaneko T, Sakaguchi Y, Makino M, Matsuda H, Strebel FR, Jenkins GN,
Bull JM.
 Optimal duration of whole body hyperthermia when combined with
cis-diaminne-1,1-cychlobutane dicarboxylate platinum (II) (carboplatin).
Anticancer Res. 1997 May-Jun;17(3C):1897-901.
PMID: 9216642 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9216642>

34:  Robins HI, Rushing D, Kutz M, Tutsch KD, Tiggelaar CL, Paul D, Spriggs
D, Kraemer C, Gillis W, Feierabend C, Arzoomanian RZ, Longo W, Alberti D,
d'Oleire F, Qu RP, Wilding G, Stewart JA.
 Phase I clinical trial of melphalan and 41.8 degrees C whole-body
hyperthermia in cancer patients.
J Clin Oncol. 1997 Jan;15(1):158-64.
PMID: 8996137 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8996137>

35:  Wiedemann GJ, Robins HI, Gutsche S, Mentzel M, Deeken M, Katschinski
DM, Eleftheriadis S, Crahe R, Weiss C, Storer B, Wagner T.
 Ifosfamide, carboplatin and etoposide (ICE) combined with 41.8 degrees C
whole body hyperthermia in patients with refractory sarcoma.
Eur J Cancer. 1996 May;32A(5):888-92.
PMID: 9081372 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9081372>

36:  Fritz KL, Koziol S, Fabian DF, Lefor AT.
 Tumor necrosis factor alpha mediates the antitumor effect of combined
interleukin-2 and whole body hyperthermia.
J Surg Res. 1996 Jan;60(1):55-60.
PMID: 8592432 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8592432>

37:  Wiedemann GJ, d'Oleire F, Knop E, Eleftheriadis S, Bucsky P, Feddersen
S, Klouche M, Geisler J, Mentzel M, Schmucker P, et al.
 Ifosfamide and carboplatin combined with 41.8 degrees C whole-body
hyperthermia in patients with refractory sarcoma and malignant teratoma.
Cancer Res. 1994 Oct 15;54(20):5346-50.
PMID: 7923163 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7923163>

38:  von Ardenne M.
 Principles and concept 1993 of the Systemic Cancer Multistep Therapy
(sCMT). Extreme whole-body hyperthermia using the infrared-A technique
IRATHERM 2000--selective thermosensitisation by hyperglycemia--circulatory
back-up by adapted hyperoxemia.
Strahlenther Onkol. 1994 Oct;170(10):581-9.
PMID: 7974169 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7974169>

39:  Steinhausen D, Mayer WK, von Ardenne M.
 Evaluation of systemic tolerance of 42.0 degrees C infrared-A whole-body
hyperthermia in combination with hyperglycemia and hyperoxemia. A Phase-I
study.
Strahlenther Onkol. 1994 Jun;170(6):322-34.
PMID: 8023241 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8023241>

40:  Sminia P, van der Zee J, Wondergem J, Haveman J.
 Effect of hyperthermia on the central nervous system: a review.
Int J Hyperthermia. 1994 Jan-Feb;10(1):1-30. Review.
PMID: 8144981 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8144981>

41:  Robins HI, Cohen JD, Schmitt CL, Tutsch KD, Feierabend C, Arzoomanian
RZ, Alberti D, d'Oleire F, Longo W, Heiss C, et al.
 Phase I clinical trial of carboplatin and 41.8 degrees C whole-body
hyperthermia in cancer patients.
J Clin Oncol. 1993 Sep;11(9):1787-94.
PMID: 8355046 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<URL:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8355046>


text:
Matti Narkia wrote:

Phase II "the median time to treatment failure was 123 days"

There's been a Phase III running since 1997 in Belgium.
http://www.eortc.be/protoc/details.asp?protocol=62961
Larger cohort (wanted).
Perhaps they don't have enough patients with sarcoma or perhaps there's few interested given the results of
phase II?
J


text:
Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:52:20 -0400 in article <[email]>
J <[email]> wrote:

This is a _not_ trial of whole-body hyperthermia, but a trial of regional
hyperthermia (combined with chemotherapy). Don't compare apples to oranges.


author: Brian Borchers

subject: Optimality of scaling factors in LAPACK DPOEQU routine

text:
The documentation for the LAPACK routine DPOEQU asserts that the diagonal
scaling results in a condition number which is within a factor of N
of the best possible condition number that can be achieved by diagonal
scaling.

Can anyone provide a reference to a paper or book where this is
proved?


author: Victor Eijkhout

subject: Re: Optimality of scaling factors in LAPACK DPOEQU routine

text:
Brian Borchers <[email]> wrote:

What diagonal scaling is used?

Here are a few references that prove that scaling by the matrix diagonal
is optimal:

@article{vdSl:equilibration,
author = {A. {van der Sluis}},
title = {Condition numbers and equilibration of matrices},
journal = {Numer. Math.},
volume = {14},
year = {1969},
pages = {14--23}
}

@article{El:blockscaling,
author = {L. Elsner},
title = {A note on optimal block-scaling of matrices},
journal = {Numer. Math.},
volume = {44},
year = {1984},
pages = {127--128}
}


author: Henry Wolkowicz

text:
Another reference is:
author="J.E. {DENNIS Jr.}  and H. WOLKOWICZ",
    TITLE = {Sizing and least-change secant methods},
  JOURNAL = {SIAM J. Numer. Anal.},
 FJOURNAL = {SIAM Journal on Numerical Analysis},
   VOLUME = {30},
     YEAR = {1993},
   NUMBER = {5},
    PAGES = {1291--1314},
     ISSN = {0036-1429},
    CODEN = {SJNAAM},
  MRCLASS = {90C30 (49M37 65K05)},
 MRNUMBER = {94g:90107},

e.g. for a positive definite matrix A, consider the function
w(A)=(trace(A)/n)/ det(A)^{1/n}
i.e. arith/geom means of the eigenvalues.
This is a valid condition number that is bounded above by the standard
condition number, \kappa, and below by sqrt(n) \kappa/4.
For the optimal column diagonal scaling
      VD     where V is full column rank m by n
that minimizes   w((VD)^T(VD))
is given by     D_ii   =  1/||v_{:i}||

So for the positive definite matrix A=V^TV, the column scaling is THE
optimal one for the condition number w(A).

Prof. Henry Wolkowicz    |Email: [email]
Univ. of Waterloo        |URL http://orion.math.uwaterloo.ca/~hwolkowi
Dept of Comb and Opt     |Tel   (519) 888-4567, x5589, office MC6065
Waterloo, Ont. CANADA N2L 3G1          |Fax   (519) 725-5441

On 13 Jun 2003, Brian Borchers wrote:


text:
Victor Eijkhout wrote:

The diagonal scaling in this routine is scaling by the matrix diagonal.
That is, after the scaling, the diagonal of the matrix is all 1's.

That's what I was looking for.  Thanks!


author: TCL

subject: An abelian group question

text:
Let q be a positive integer. Denote by Z*(q) the set of positive
integers relatively
prime to q. Z*(q) is an abelian group under multiplication modulo q.

My question is: Is every finite abelian group isomorphic to Z*(q) for
some q?


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Oct 18, 10:32 pm, TCL <[email]> wrote:

The structure of Z*(n) is completely well understood.
Google: multiplicative group of integers modulo n


author: Arturo Magidin

subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Oct 18, 9:32 pm, TCL <[email]> wrote:

The multiplicative group of integers relatively prime to n modulo n is
cyclic if and only if there is a "primitive root modulo n" (an integer
g such that every integer coprime to n is congruent modulo n to some
power of g).

It is a classic theorem that the only numbers for which primitive
roots exist are: 2, 4, odd prime powers p^m (p an odd prime, m a
positive integer), and twice an odd prime power 2p^m.

In particular, the only cyclic groups of admissible order that arise
as the group of units modulo q are the trivial group, the group of
order 2, and the groups of order (p-1)p^{k-1} where p is an odd prime
and k is a positive integer.

But there are admissible numbers which are not of this form; for
example, 2^k where k>1 is not a power of 2. E.g., 2^3. There are, of
course, other values for which you will not get a cyclic group from
the group of units modulo q.


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
Oops. Z*(p) is isomorphic to Z(p-1) if p is prime. So Z*(17) is
isomorphic to Z(16). Z(16) is not a counterexample.


author: achille

subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Oct 19, 1:58 pm, quasi <[email]> wrote:

How about n = 18 = 2*3^2?

I believe phi^(-1)(18) = {19, 27, 38, 54} and

(Z/19Z)*                     ~ C_phi(19) = C_18
(Z/27Z)* = (Z/(3^3)Z)*       ~ C_phi(3^3) = C_18
(Z/38Z)* ~ (Z/2)* x (Z/19Z)* ~ C_1 x C_phi(19) ~ C_18
(C/54Z)* ~ (Z/2)* x (Z/27Z)* ~ C_1 x C_phi(3^3) ~ C_18

where C_k is the cyclic group of order k.
It is clear Z/3Z x Z/3Z x Z/2Z has order 18 but not
cyclic.


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Oct 19, 12:24 am, quasi <[email]> wrote:

This is not quite right. You miss q=20. But Z*(16)=Z*(20)=Z(2)+Z(4),
Z*(24)=Z(2)+Z(2)+Z(2).
So Z(8) is a counterexample to my question.

When e=4, I found 4 solutions: 2^5, 3*2^4, 17, 5*2^3
But there are 5 nonisomorphic abelian groups of order 16. Maybe Z(16)
is a counterexample again, I
don't know; did not check.


author: Chip Eastham

subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Oct 18, 8:56 pm, TCL <[email]> wrote:

Is there a q such that Z*(q) is isomorphic to Z/3Z?

Note that the order of Z*(q) is Euler's phi(q).

regards, chip


author: quasi

subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:56:11 -0700 (PDT), TCL <[email]> wrote:

No.

The order of Z*(q) is phi(q), but phi(q) is never odd if q > 1.

In particular, a nontrivial abelian group of odd order is not
isomorphic to Z*(q) for any positive integer q.

Here is a followup question (which I haven't tried) ...

Let S be the set of positive integers n such that every abelian group
of order phi(n) is isomorphic Z*(q) for some positive integer q. Is S
infinite?

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT), TCL <[email]> wrote:

Sort of ...

It depends what you mean by "completely well understood".

By the Chinese Remainder Theorem, if the prime factorization of n is

   n = (p_1)^(e_1) (p_2)^(e_2) ... (p_k)^(e_k)

then Z*(n) is isomorphic to the direct product

   Z*((p_1)^(e_1)) x Z*((p_2)^(e_2)) x ... x Z*((p_k)^(e_k))

Moreover, if we assume

   p_1 < p_2 < ... p_k, then for i = 1, 2, ..., k

   Z*((p_i)^(e_i)) is a cyclic group of order

   phi((p_i)^(e-i)) = ((p_i)^(e_i - 1)) (p_i -1)

with the exception that if p_1 = 2 and e_1 = e > 2, then

   Z*(2^e)

is not cyclic -- it's isomorphic to Z_2 x Z_(2^(e-1)).

But note, the direct product representation above does not, in
general, match the canonical representation of a finite abelian group
as a direct product of cyclic groups, and it's precisely at that point
where the "completely well understood" claim breaks down. Of course,
for each n, you can use the above representation to find the canonical
one, but sometimes the question requires more than just finding the
structure of Z*(n) for one particular n.

For example, consider the question -- essentially a more realistic
version of your original one, which I posed in a previous reply ...

Question:

For which m in N is every finite abelian group of order m isomorphic
to Z*(n) for some n in N?

Remarks:

(1) The obstacle here is Number-Theoretic rather than Group-Theoretic.
It's our lack of full understanding of phi^(-1) that makes the above
question difficult.

(2) I posted a summary of results and a conjecture related to the
above question elsewhere in this thread.

quasi


author: Jim Heckman (reply-to

subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On 19-Oct-2010, TCL <[email]>
wrote in message
<[email]>:

Z*(2^5) = Z(8)+Z(2)
Z*(3*2^4) = Z*(3)+Z*(2^4) = Z(2)+(Z(4)+Z(2))
Z*(17) = Z(16)
Z*(5*2^3) = Z*(5)+Z*(2^3) = Z(4)+(Z(2)+Z(2))

So there are two missing: Z(4)+Z(4) and Z(2)+Z(2)+Z(2)+Z(2)


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Oct 18, 9:24 pm, Chip Eastham <[email]> wrote:

Oop. Let me rephrase my question:

Let q be a positive integer. Denote by Z*(q) the set of positive
integers relatively prime to q. Z*(q) is an abelian group under
multiplication modulo q.

Call a positive integer  n admissible if n=phi(q) for some q, where
phi is the
Euler totient function.

My question is: Is every finite abelian group whose order is
admissible isomorphic to Z*(q) for
some q?


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:06:39 -0500, quasi <[email]> wrote:

Let me revise the wording of the question (for clarity) and give a
partial answer ...

Question:

Which positive integers m are such that every abelian group of order
phi(m) is isomorphic to Z*(q) for some positive integer q?

The following analysis will yield a partial answer ...

Let S be the set of positive integers m satisfying the requirements of
the above question.

Clearly the integers 1,2,4 are elements of S.

If a finite cyclic groups of order m > 1 is isomorphic to Z*(q) for
some q, then m must have the form

   m = p^(e-1) * (p-1).

for some prime p and some positive integer e.

Hence, if m > 1 is in S, then m must have the above form.

For the rest of the discussion, assume m has the above form for some
prime p and some positive integer e.

In a previous reply, I analyzed the case p = 2, with the result that
for p = 2, the only values of m > 1which are in S are m = 2 and m = 4.

Next assume p is an odd prime.

Then there are only 2 values of q such that phi(q) = m, namely q = p^e
and q = 2*p^e.

It follows that the only abelian group of order m isomorphic to a
group of the form Z*(q) is the cyclic group of order m. But if e > 1,
there are also non-cyclic abelian groups of order m.

Hence we must have e = 1, which means that

   m = p-1

where p is prime.

Now if p-1 is squarefree, the only abelian group of order m is cyclic,
and since the cyclic group of order p-1 is isomorphic to Z*(p), it
follows that p-1 is in S whenever p-1 is squarefree.

To summarize, I've shown the following 2 results:

(1) If m is in S then m has the form p-1 where p is prime.

(2) If p is prime and p-1 is squarefree, then p-1 is in S.

I haven't investigated the question of whether or not S contains any
other elements besides squarefree numbers of the form p-1 where p is
prime.

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:32:06 -0700 (PDT), TCL <[email]> wrote:

No.

8 is admissible phi(16) = 8 and phi(24) = 8.

But q = 16 and q = 24 are the _only_ values of q such that phi(q) = 8,
whereas there are 3 non-isomorphic abelian groups of order 8.

More generally, for all nonnegative integers e, phi(q) = 2^e has
exactly 2 solutions, namely q = 2^(e+1) and q = 3*2^e. But for e > 2,
there are always more than 2 non-isomorphic abelian groups of order
2^e.

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 00:28:57 -0500, quasi <[email]> wrote:

S _does_ contain other elements besides the ones of the type mentioned
above. There appears to be lots of such elements, probably infinitely
many.

Now that I've looked at some data, while I still don't have a
structural characterization of the elements of S, some partial
patterns are apparent.

I'll post a summary of results and conjectures in my next reply.

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 23:24:22 -0500, quasi <[email]> wrote:

Correction:

phi(q) = 8 for 5 values of q, namely q = 15, 16, 20, 24, 30.

However for the above values of q, none of the groups Z*(q) is cyclic.

Thus although 8 is admissible, not all abelian groups of order 8 are
isomorphic to a group of the form Z*(q).

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 23:24:22 -0500, quasi <[email]> wrote:

Correction:

More generally, for all nonnegative integers e, phi(q) = 2^e has at
most 3 solutions. It always has the 2 solutions

    q = 2^(e+1) and q = 3*2^e

and it also the solution

   q = 2^e + 1

provided 2^e + 1 is prime.

But for e = 3, q isn't prime, and for e > 3, there are more than 3
non-isomorphic abelian groups of order 2^e.

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
Here is a revised version of my previously posed question, followed by
a few easy partial results, and some conjectures.

Let Z*(n) denote the multiplicative group of units mod n.

Question:

For which m in N is every finite abelian group of order m isomorphic
to Z*(n) for some n in N?

Discussion:

Let S be the set of values of m which satisfy the above condition.

Some easy results:

(1) If m is in S and m > 1, then m is even.

(2) If phi^(-1) (m) is nonempty and m is squarefree, then m is in S.

(3) As an immediate consequence of (2), if m+1 is prime and m is
squarefree, then m is in S.

(4) There are values of m in S which do not satisfy condition (2), for
example m = 4, 12, 20, 40, 60, 88 (and lots of others).

Conjectures:

(1) S is infinite.

(2) There are infinitely many m in S which are not squarefree.

(3) Other than m = 20, if m in S is such that m is not squarefree,
then m+1 is prime and the odd part of m is squarefree.

The above conjectures were derived by looking at data.

I actually believe conjectures (1) and (2).

Conjecture (3) seems doubtful, but the data _insists_. Thus, for the
record, it's not my conjecture -- it's my pc's conjecture!

quasi


subject: Re: An abelian group question

text:
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 00:40:56 -0500, quasi <[email]> wrote:

Based on TCL's example showing 4 values of q with phi(q) = 16, I
realize that my above "corrected" claim is still not correct. I failed
to account for other prime factors of q which might be of the form one
more than a power of 2 (Fermat primes).

It's clear that powers of 2 are problematic. I should have just used
powers of an odd prime, which would have yielded easy counterexamples
with less headaches.

quasi


author: Benj

subject:
Germans not only invented the REAL UFOs during WWII but now invent
	great hoax ones too!

text:
Forget crop circle hoaxes when now you can make killer UFO hoaxes!

Scare those stupid villagers shitless!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLZHjdY6i3s

Install a nice flash strobe and you can even get all the locals
believing lightning actually exists!


subject:
Re: Germans not only invented the REAL UFOs during WWII but now
	invent great hoax ones too!

text:
On Aug 6, 8:16 am, "Autymn D. C." <[email]> wrote:

And the reason you need "the furthest inertial moment" to make your
"loftcraft" fly would be?

No question a few of your gears are missing the hub...


text:
On Aug 5, 4:22 pm, "Androcles" <[email]_z> wrote:

Well, sure, in the Yoo Kay you just tell criminals that guns are
illegal and crime immediately stops.

Over here what we'd call police Octokopters:  Target practice drones!


author: Autymn D. C.

text:
On Aug 5, 10:20 am, Benj <[email]> wrote:

Eh, my design is better, thriftier.  The flaw in all of these
loftcraft is the hub; wherever there's a hub, the spokes don't run at
the furthest inertial moment.

-Aut


author: Androcles

subject: Re: Germans not only invented the REAL UFOs during WWII but now invent great hoax ones too!

text:
"Benj" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
| Forget crop circle hoaxes when now you can make killer UFO hoaxes!
|
| Scare those stupid villagers shitless!
|
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLZHjdY6i3s
|
| Install a nice flash strobe and you can even get all the locals
| believing lightning actually exists!
|
Neat trick, but when the police used one in Britain for surveillance it was
deemed illegal and grounded; now I never get to see lightning anymore. Rolf
Harris in a helicopter is still aloud... or allowed, I'm not sure which.


text:
"Benj" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Aug 5, 4:22 pm, "Androcles" <[email]_z> wrote:

Well, sure, in the Yoo Kay you just tell criminals that guns are
illegal and crime immediately stops.

Over here what we'd call police Octokopters:  Target practice drones!
===================================================
There is no such thing as a gun. What you call gunfire is the sound of Rolf
Harris shaking a metal board at Basil Brush. Install a nice muzzle flash
strobe and you can even get all the locals believing guns actually exist!
Besides, our criminals get eight years for theft of an old book with malice
aforethought and five years for homicide without a gun. "I didn't mean it!"
is a powerful defence.
   http://tinyurl.com/27vgxvj
   http://tinyurl.com/2fykphq


author: hoofprints

subject:
Re: Obstruction of Justice - False Memory Syndrome Foundation,  the
 Order of the Brotherhood,  the Church of Satan and the Church of Set.

text:
"Gore, L" wrote:

Thanks for the link.
I was wondering how JLH fit into this scandal, now I know.

One question I have is: were the FMSF members of the other three she
mentioned?
I guess I don't know enough about them, but it would seem that not
_everyone_ in the FMSF would be Satanists.


author: Necco Wafers

subject: Re: Obstruction of Justice - False Memory Syndrome Foundation,  the  Order of the Brotherhood,  the Church of Satan and the Church of Set.

text:
"hoofprints" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Why don't you even give a serious look at what the False Memory Foundation
is.

If anything, they have saved the byootocks of people like you kooks, because
they
have insisted that there be facts, proof, before convicting people of child
sexual
abuse.

But nooooooo!  You'd rather follow the delusional rantings of a proven
wacko.

Figgers.

Nomen Necco
TJ #17


text:
Necco Wafers wrote:

WTF?!?  How did you extrapolate those premises from what I
stated/posted?
Wacko yourself!!


subject: Re: Obstruction of Justice - False Memory Syndrome Foundation,  the   Order of the Brotherhood,  the Church of Satan and the Church of Set.

text:
"hoofprints" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

How did I "extrapolate?"  By reading what you wrote and what you
supported by your statements.

Try it yourself.  It might help if you were to actually read what you post
and to even read the posts to which you respond.

Nomen Necco


subject: Killing of next myth.

text:
That Norï¿½rsetrn in Disco Bay been accepted as the northern hunting area of
the Norse Greenlanders,
is an underestimation of the Norse Greenlanders activity in the area. That
becomes clear when following is put on the table where it belongs.

On page 73 in Jansen Henrik M, A critical account of the written and
archaeological sources' evidence concerning the Norse settlements in
Greenland, Meddelelser om Grï¿½nland 182:4, 1972, following is noted that a
Norwegian King in 1261 demanded blood-money for homicide not only in the
bigger settlements but also from Norï¿½rsetr, a settlement in Disco Bay.

Given that Jansen is correct, which he usually are and he seems to be when
his ref been checked,
this calls for killing of the myth that the Norse Greenlanders 'only' used
Disco Bay area as hunting area. But the impact of this also is that the
ruins found in Disco Bay might be Norse and not as interpreted otherwise.

It's hard to believe that any King of Norway would call for law being
followed in Norï¿½rsetr if Norï¿½rsetra wasn't more than a seasonal used
settlement in Disco Bay.

Inger E


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
On 19 Jan, 14:35, "IE_Json" <[email]> wrote:

So then, let's take it from the top.

You're wrong.

Alan has demonstrated that you're wrong.

Another myth mysteriously comes back to life.

Any news on A.L. Binns?

Please don't hesitate to quote real scholars.  After all:

Lag (1960:729) om upphovsrätt till litterära och konstnärliga verk.

22 § Var och en får citera ur offentliggjorda verk i överensstämmelse
med god sed och i den omfattning som motiveras av ändamålet.

Taken from the Swedish Government website on copyright.

That seems to give you pretty much permission to quote, in so far as
is necessary, any published work, provided that your quotation is in
good taste.

Of course, you may argue that the works are private.  I am only
interested in the public parts.  As far as I know, no one here, apart
from perhaps R.R., is interested in your private parts.

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:

Dang!  There goes another ruined keyboard.  Your dry sense of humour
will get me into the debt trap, at this rate.

In emergency, Flateyarbók is available online on Sagnanet, but don't
hold your breath while waiting for the pages to download.

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
[email] wrote:

No response.

So myth 1 remains standing, its hair barely ruffled.  Let's see how
myth 2 fares.

Oh, and it would be hard to find a scholar less qualified in this field
than I am, so if you can drag them all out to support your contentions,
please do.

I'm a sucker for qualified scholars, Real Mediaeval Historians, and the
like.

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:

Sorry, Alan -- I should have checked it was all there before giving the
reference.  Comes of not being a specialist.

;-)

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Erik Hammerstad wrote:

But, of course, Alan is not an Icelander, so he won't be able to
translate or understand "obigdum" -- see earlier thread.

At least we see that the King's writ reaches to the _uninhabited_ parts
of Greenland, which is the point misunderstood or (less charitably)
misrepresented by Inger.

BTW, does my finely-attuned nose smell a Cambridge ASNaC in Alan?

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:

Aha! Thought so! I shared Old English tutorials with some of your lot
in the 1960s.

They were all seriously eccentric.  Not like yourself, of
course...ahem...or me...

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
IE_Json wrote:

<top-posting corrected yet again -- sigh!>

Name one scholar who thinks that there are unique armrings (or even
wrist clasps) that are only found in Vest Agder and Yorkshire, and that
prove that women from Vest Agder migrated to Yorkshire.

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Answer to three men who ARE WRONG Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
IE_Json wrote:

My pals call me Pete.

Never seen any of that.

 -  Munch was not

Oh. no, Inger -- he understands you only too well.

Gracious me!  Why?  With references, please.  "Because I say so" won't
do.

So your work has been plagiarised from others?

...and if you are an example of one, I'm almost infinitely pleased not
to be counted among you.  As it happens, I am happy in my work, and it
pays very well, allowing me the privilege of being an amateur
mediaevalist.

Tee hee!

Are they all in the same institution?  (P.S. "..as I _did_").

You think this is an attack?  Try annoying me....

You really have got a cheek calling us liars.  After misrepresenting
what Mr. Binns said in the way you did, I would be very wary of
accusing others of lying.  I really would.

Pete Stretton


author: Peter Alaca

subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
IE_Json <[email] > wrote:

What great logic. So if someone says that a dog was
beaten in near my house once, my cat might be a dog.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
IE_Json wrote:

Quite apart from the problem that you haven't killed the first myth yet
(see A. L. Binns et al.), this seems an unwarranted assumption.

Why should a King of Norway who claimed suzerainty over Iceland and
Greenland not want the rule of law to extend to summer hunting-grounds,
as well as to winter quarters?

The alternative could be, as we know from other sagas, an
uncontrollable series of revenge-killings, and that could be an
economic disaster, from the royal taxation point of view.

The words "clutching" and "straws" come to mind.

Pete Stretton


author: Volucris

subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Peter,

<snip.

Might it not be that Inger comes from a country that follows different
ways of refering to persons. As you can see she wrote Jansen(,) Henrik
M. That can be read as Henrik M. Jansen. Further on you can see that
mentioned the same person als ( ) Jansen. I have no difficulty reading
her. I have not followed the previous and past discussion. I feel no
need to participate though I had to say my piece on this item.

With regards,

Hans Vogels
Helmond, The Netherlands


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Erik Hammerstad wrote:

Thanks for the useful link, Erik.

Inger leaves unasked the question "Why should the king be interested in
Nordstetr murders?"

Answer:  They would be a source of royal revenue, like any other
murders.

In the words of Abba:  "money, money, money".

Pete Stretton


author: Alan Crozier

subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Alan Crozier wrote:
message
must
if
i
in
Vestri
meant).
said?

<snip>
: In emergency, Flateyarbï¿½k is available online on Sagnanet, but don't
: hold your breath while waiting for the pages to download.

As far as I can see, all they have is 15 pages of the edition of
Flateyarbï¿½k by Unger and Vigfusson. The rest hasn't been scanned yet.
:-(

Alan


author: Erik Hammerstad

subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
[email] wrote:

Almost 60 pages from the Hï¿½kon Hï¿½konsson saga from the
Skï¿½lholtsbok yngsta is scanned, see
http://skaldic.arts.usyd.edu.au/db.php?table=images&id=11286 but
it seems too much to look through for the few lines regarding
Greenland - here it must be much better to await the specialist's
results :-) You are welcome to try of course.

I have failed to find the Flateyarbok version unfortunately, again
we hope for Alan's help.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Erik Hammerstad wrote:
eller
i.e.,
translation).
translation
others.
check
don't
yet.

But, of course, Alan is not an Icelander, so he won't be able to
translate or understand "obigdum" -- see earlier thread.

At least we see that the King's writ reaches to the _uninhabited_ parts
of Greenland, which is the point misunderstood or (less charitably)
misrepresented by Inger.

BTW, does my finely-attuned nose smell a Cambridge ASNaC in Alan?

Yes indeed!

Alan


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
[email] <[email] > wrote:

She didn''t say what Henrik Jansen (not Jansen Henrik)
actually wrote, and we have seen in the past the most
fantastic interpretations of what she thought people wrote.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
flexford,
I have killed the first myth - that you and some here haven't got it doesn't
change that several scholars more qualified in the field have.

Inger E
<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

IE_Json wrote:

Quite apart from the problem that you haven't killed the first myth yet
(see A. L. Binns et al.), this seems an unwarranted assumption.

Why should a King of Norway who claimed suzerainty over Iceland and
Greenland not want the rule of law to extend to summer hunting-grounds,
as well as to winter quarters?

The alternative could be, as we know from other sagas, an
uncontrollable series of revenge-killings, and that could be an
economic disaster, from the royal taxation point of view.

The words "clutching" and "straws" come to mind.

Pete Stretton


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Volucris <[email] > wrote:

You are right of course, and in this case it is not diffucult
(esp.not to us Dutch with such a familyname), but she
does this all the time, making it sometimes hard to find
the correct name, and there usually is very little else to
search for when she gives a reference.
BTW, Inger E. Johansson is from Sweden.


author: prd

subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
In sci.archaeology message  news:1169243618.246429.202810
@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com by "Volucris" <[email]>  . . .
:

Inger mislabels to diffuse her irresponsibility when she is proven
to have misquoted people or quoted them out of context. Its
quite a normal practice for her, make it difficult for critics
to follow up and confront her on her references. This is nothing
but a childish propoganda ploy. She finally has run out of excuses
I guess for not providing her references and sources.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
[email] <[email] > wrote:

Well, Gothic Norse is not that easy reading for me
but on the sight of it, Saganet is a great source.


subject: Answer to three men who ARE WRONG Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Erik H, Peter A and Flexford,
Are WRONG, not I!
False information presented by Erik H over and over again -  Munch was not
mentioned by me - Jansen Henrik M was - the text is correct by me,
but once again Erik H shown incapacity to read and understand!

IF you three continue, you may do so, BUT that doesn't alter the fact that
you are WRONG.
Neither does it alter the fact that the article of Jansen by other scholars
have been interpretated the way I done.

Is it possible for you to understand that you aren't specialists in this
area, I am and there are many more who really are who arrived to same
conclusion as I done! Stop attacking me! Present valid arguments instead of
pure lies!

Inger E


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:
Try this one http://tinyurl.com/2nwxov I believe the passage we
are discussing is on page 290v, as far as I can decipher the
handwriting it says: "Gellt a Grï¿½nlande & skrede jafnvel nordast i
obigdum". As far as I can see this is yet another version of the
saga that does not name Nordsetr explicitly. Which manuscript this
is scanned from I cannot discern (it says Lbs 423 fol
[1700-1799?]), but allthough different it is more in line with the
Codex Frisianus version than Munch's translation.

I trust that Alan will be kind enough to follow this through, I'm
afraid its beyond the capabilities of IEJ ;-)


subject: WAS Killing of next myth.

text:
"Erik Hammerstad" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
message
of
been
of
eller
i.e.,
summer
translation).
reference
translation
others.
check
Skï¿½lholtsbï¿½k
don't
yet.
the

I have now looked at editions of two of the manuscripts and can sum up
the situation as follows.

Lbs 423 fol is an 18th-century paper copy of AM 47 fol (Eirspennill).
The passage about Greenland in Lbs 423 is not in AM 47 since the last
six or so leaves of that manuscript are lost. The text in Lbs 423, as we
have seen, uses the phrase "nordast i obygdum" (in the northernmost
uninhabited areas).

I can't find the passage in Skï¿½lholtsbok yngsta. It seems to be yet
another very different redaction from the one in Flateyjarbï¿½k.

The Codex Frisianus version is shorter than the passage in Flateyjarbï¿½k.
It says only that teh Greenlanders agreed to pay tax to the king and
also blood-money for homicide, whether the slain men were Norse or
Greenlanders. The king now took ï¿½egn-gildi (blood money for a thane) all
the way north under the Pole Star, as the poet Sturla said in a quoted
verse.

The same verse is quoted in Flateyjarbï¿½k, but here the prose is slightly
more detailed. This is where the Norwegian translation by Munch et al.
comes from. It says (ch. 271, or vol. 3, p. 214 of the edition by Unger
& Vigfusson):

oll manndraap skylldi bï¿½ta vid konunginn huart er vï¿½ri norï¿½nir edr
grï¿½nlendzkir ok huart sem ï¿½eir voru drepnir i bygd edr nordrsetu

"compensation for all homicides was to be paid to the king, whether it
was for Norwegians or Greenlanders and whether they were killed in
"bygd" (settled land) or "nordrsetr".

That last word is a compound of "north" and a word that in Norway refers
to mountain pastures used in the summer. In Greenland it is unlikely to
refer to transhumance; "summer hunting grounds" would perhaps be a
better translation. The word is not a place-name.

I can't find the passage in Skï¿½lholtsbok yngsta. It seems to be yet
another very different redaction from the one in Flateyjarbï¿½k. This
particular verse about the Pole Star by Sturla does not occur (although
lots of others do).

There is nothing here to suggest permanent settlement in the north of
Greenland. On the contrary, the formulaic character of the language
shows that the king wanted to get blood money for any possible murder,
no matter who the victim was and no matter whether it happened in
inhabited or not (permanently) inhabited areas. The "nordrsetr" clearly
belonged to the latter category.

Alan


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Peter Alaca wrote:
What exactly Henrik Jansen wrote I don't know, but his source must
have been Hï¿½kon Hï¿½konson's saga. It states that in the autumn of
1261 three men (names given) returned from Greenland having been
away for four winters. They report to the king that the
Greenlanders has decided to pay him taxes, including fines for
murder, both if the victim was a Norwegian or a Greenlander and if
the murder took place either in the settlement or Nordsetur.

So IEJ gets it wrong  again ;-) And if she once again wants to
accuse me of lying, the above is translated from P.A. Munch's
translation to Norwegian, online at http://tinyurl.com/275j2d page
434.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
In sci.archaeology message  news:45b154b6$1$49932$[email]
by "Peter Alaca" <[email]>  . . . :

Or, do people in Linkoping speak a different nordic language
from the rest of Sweden?


text:
IE_Json wrote:

Ad hominem isn't proof, and so far that is all you have produced -
in addition to unfounded speculations.

The only one of us being unable to read and understand seems to be
yourself.

Ad hominem again.

Assertion without documentation.

To the last, that's an undocumented claim. To the first, to be
recognized as a specialist you have to show it, for example by
producing scholarly publications - which you have not done (posts
on Usenet do not qualify of course).

Relevant quotes from regular scholars are of course neither
attacks nor lies, that you are conceited enough to regard them as
such only shows your incapacity of logical thought.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
IE_Json <[email] > wrote:

His name is Pete .

Do you realy think that shouting works?

Repeating that over and over again makes it still not true.

Nobody said Much was mentioned by you,
but you should have mentioned him.

What do you mean?

So, if it is not your idea, how can you kill a myth then?

No you aren't.

Good for you.

You have to start with giving facts.
All you gave us was a speculation based on
mis-interpretation, as Erik showed.
And now stifle yourself, woman.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Erik Hammerstad wrote:

Lbs 423 fol is from AM 47, Eirspennill.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
"Erik Hammerstad" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
eller
i.e.,
translation).
translation
others.
check
don't
yet.

Yes, and that last bit means "in the northernmost uninhabited areas".
Instead of using bygd (permanent settlement) or setr (seasonal
settlement) the text has "obygdir" (UNinhabited areas = no people living
there at all). This breathes new life into the "myth" that there was no
permanent settlement  in the north of Greenland.

I'll check Flateyjarbï¿½k too, but it will take some time, with trips to
the library on two separate days, one to place the order, another to
consult the works.

Alan


subject: Re: WAS Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier <[email] > wrote:

Thanks, I think the myth is thoroughly killed now.
That adds another ten year to her book.


subject: Re: WAS Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:
Thank you very much for an enlightening and scholarly piece of
work, too bad that you-know-who probably won't take any notice.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Erik Hammerstad <[email] > wrote:

    "Given that Jansen is correct, which he usually are
     and he seems to be when his ref been checked"

That makes sense.

Do you think that will help you? :-)


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
"Erik Hammerstad" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
it
and
in
not
settlement
as
being
used

The forms of the place-names indicate a difference in the type of
settlement. The saga says (in Munch's translation) "i Bygden eller i
Nordsï¿½derne", and formulaic phrases like this recur in Old Norse texts:
"til sï¿½tra ok ï¿½ bygï¿½inni", "bï¿½ï¿½i til setra ok svï¿½ ï¿½ bygï¿½ir", i.e., "both
in the summer settlements and in the year-round settlements" (in other
words, everywhere). These place-name elements are also reflected in the
names given to the Norse parts of Greenland: Eystri bygï¿½ and Vestri
bygï¿½, the two permanent settlements, but Norï¿½rsetr for the summer
hunting grounds.

Alan


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
prd <[email] > wrote:

She is from Barcelï¿½na.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:
 From the introduction to the Norwegian translation I see that
Hï¿½kon Hï¿½konson's saga was not actually translated by P.A. Munch,
but by D. Rygh after Munch's death. He refers to five manuscripts,
but the fifth may be a version only available in a translation by
Peder Claussï¿½n though, see http://tinyurl.com/237ayp page
XIII-XIV. But while the main source for Rygh is Flateyjarbook, it
has been supplemented by material from the others.

Take your time, and thanks in advance.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
Alan Crozier wrote:

Actually it seems that it is Munch who introduced the words "i
Bygden eller i Nordsï¿½terne" in his translation. In the original
text that I can find, http://tinyurl.com/3y6cxq page 567, Codex
Frisianus version, it says only "allt nordr vndr stiornv sva at
giallda thegngilldi eftir sem Sturla quad." after which follows
the poetic words of Sturla Tordarson noting that the land of the
king now extended as far North as under the leitharstiornv (the
polar star?) farther than the sun shines (a very rough translation).

Perhaps Alan knows of another version where the Nordsetr reference
is explicitly given? As I understand a remark in Edvard Bull's
1931 History of the Norwegian People, there are no other sources
on this that Sturla Tordarson's saga, which is also what Knut
Helle writes in his 1995 Norway's History.


subject: Re: Killing of next myth.

text:
"Erik Hammerstad" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
texts:
"both
other
the

I hardly think that Munch introduced those words into his translation
(especially since he has a footnote explaining what Nordsï¿½terne meant).
Perhaps the Codex Frisianus version differs radically from the others.
The saga is preserved in three other manuscripts which I can't check
here at home on a Sunday: Flateyarbï¿½k, Eirspennill and Skï¿½lholtsbï¿½k
yngsta. Perhaps Inger can tell us what those manuscripts actually said?
She's the one who has studied these primary sources closely.

Alan


author: erik van loon

subject: heavy metals with H2S

text:
After several years, we must startup again the method for analysing heavy
metals with H2S (FCC).
Because off the hazards off H2S, we are not pleased to do.
Has anaybody experience with this test.
The alternative ICP-test (contract lab), is to expensive.


author: Marvin Margoshes

subject: Re: heavy metals with H2S

text:
"erik van loon" <[email]> wrote in message
news:94ptk5$4qa$1@Snowflake_Obsidian.lion-access.net...

I did this as an undergraduate, but that was about 1948.  We sometimes used
ammonium polysulfide instead of H2S.  Nevertheless, I did come down with a
case of H2S poisoning one day on my way home.  You should not do this
procedure on an open bench, but in a fume hood.  H2S is actually rated as
more toxic than HCN.

Are alternatives more expensive when you figure in the labor cost of the wet
chemistry method?  If you are looking for a few specific elements, AA may be
more economical than ICP.


author: Steve Short

subject: Re: heavy metals with H2S

text:
You could use small amounts of added solid thioacetamide which promptly
hydrolyzes to realse sulfide into solution. With a little experience it is
quite easy to judge the amount to add. You should be doing this work in a
fume hood in any case.


subject: Re: heavy metals with H2S

text:
In article <Vc%b6.4646$[email]>,
  "Marvin Margoshes" <[email]> wrote:

used

APS is used in classical analysis for other things than H2S, means: it
is not a substitute for H2S. And: working with H2S is safe when using a
few elementary safety precautions. If it is more or less appropriate
than ICP-MS or -OES depends on a number of circumstances.

Micha.

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


author: Mark Tracy

subject: Re: heavy metals with H2S

text:
In article <kV4c6.324$[email]>, "Steve Short"
<[email]> wrote:

[snip]

Thioacetamide hydrolyzes to H2S in a boiling water bath. Its quite water
soluble, so you just prepare a standard solution of it; it is stable at
room temp.

It is safe enough that college freshmen used it in Chem 1B when I was a
teaching assistant some 20 years ago.

Mark Tracy


author: DP

subject: Progressive:

text: What is the best brand of progressive no line bifocals to buy?      DP


author: CatmanX

subject: Re: Progressive:

text:
How dare you give advice Mark. Like no-one asked for it did they?

DP specifically asked for what was the best lens, not what was the
differences between brands. You should be shot for this tirade about
multifocals. In fact, I am going to have google ban you just so Dp
doesn't get upset any more.

By the way, does DP stand for what I think it does?

Sarcasm fully intended, DP, you are an idiot.

dr grant


author: William Stacy

subject: Re: Progressive:

text:
DP wrote:

Probably the favorite one of your eye guy.  What he/she would wear
personally if they were in your shoes.

I just got a new pair of hoya cd in trivex.  Very nice, but depending on
your Rx, might not even be available to you.

w.stacy, o.d.