text:
Hello again.

I've been tring to figure out this circuit as best I can.  Below
is what I believe is occuring at any one instance.  I'm really
trying to understand this and believe that I am very close
to doing so.

The circuit schematic is:
http://webpages.charter.net/jmw74/CIRCUIT.GIF

Any comments on my analysis of this circuit would be
greatly appreciated. :)

=======================

A 9 volt source is applied.  As D1, R2, R3, and D2 are wired in
parallel, they each receive a full 9 volts, assuming we discard
any wire resistance.

R1 and R4 act as current and voltage limiters so we don't
overload the requirements of the LED's.  Assuming that the
forward voltage of a LED is 2 volts and a forward current
maximum of 20mA, the resistors are calculated by Ohm's law
as follows:

R=V/I = (9V - 2V) / 20ma = (9V - 2V) / .020 = 350 Ohms.

A 350 Ohm resistor would provide the maximum allowable voltage
and current to the LED, however, to build in a "margin of error",
a higher rated resistor should be used.

Using a 470 Ohm resistor as in the circuit diagram, the current
and voltage delivered to the LED is:

I = V/R = 9 / 470 = 0.015 A = 15mA.
V = 9 - (IR) = 9 - (0.015 * 470) = 9 - 7.05 = 1.95 V.

R2 and R3 provide the following:

I = V/R = 9 / 4700 = 0.0019 A = 1.9mA.
V = 9 - IR = 9 - (.0019 * 4700) = 9 - 8.93 = 0.07 V.

At this point, we need to assume that C1 is discharging and C2 is
charging.  C2 must already have a minimum stored capacity of at least
~0.06 volts at this point.

C1


author: www.satcure.co.uk (Martin Pickering {UK}

subject: Re: Help with understanding astable multvibrator circuit.

text:
In article <[email]>,
John Popelish <[email]> wrote:

It  probably  won't.  -8.4  volts  is  really  over  the  limit  for a
general-purpose  silicon  transistor.  I  think  the  "designer"  kept
things  simple  by  omitting  the reverse  Vbe protection  diodes that
should be interposed between each emitter and negative rail.  In fact,
if the diodes were fitted, it would probably slow down  the frequency,
allowing a reduction in capacitor value to get  the same  frequency as
without  the  diodes  (=  lower cost and  better reliability  since, I
believe,  continually stressing  the be junction  can reduce  the gain
ove a period of time).

These  considerations  don't  matter for a  one-off hobby  circuit but
they could be of interest for a mass-produced unit if  reliability and
repeatability were important.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Martin

Martin T. Pickering B.Eng.
http://www.satcure-focus.com
________________________


author: Rich Mechaber

text:
I was very puzzled about a very similar/identical circuit.  Here's a
link to the post and replies that set me straight:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&frame=right&th=f205a13466864195&seekm=397ACEFC.755466E5%40ttlc.net#link1

Rich Mechaber

John Wilson wrote:


author: John Popelish

text:
John Wilson wrote:

Hi.  Did you receive the reply I made to your first post?

This is a bit circular.  The first equation is wrong. 9/470 = .019,
but the resistor does not have a 9 volt drop, but only the part of 9
volts that is left over after the LED and transistor have used up
whatever they will.  If we assume that the transistors are saturated,
they can be expected to drop less than .5 volt, and the LED will drop
about 1.5 volts (red about 1.5, green closer to 2 volts), so just
assume those drops, and subtract them from 9 and use that remainder to
calculate the resistor current.  It them comes out very close to .015
amps.  I think you did this correctly in your first post.

Again, you are assuming all the voltage is dropped across the
resistors, and this would be the case, only if something was forcing
the voltage at the bottom of those resistors to be zero.  so it is no
wonder that you calculate that voltage to be zero within the round off
error of your math.  The actual voltage across these resistors will
depend on what else is in series with that current and there are two
cases.  In one case, the voltage will be positive enough for the base
emitter junction to forward bias, and this is a low resistance state
for that junction, so it will hog all the current through the resistor
and clamp the voltage to about .6 volts.  The other case would be if
the capacitor were holding the voltage below .6 volts, so that the
transistor base emitter junction were reverse biased, and so allowed
no current to pass through, so all the resistor current would have to
flow into the capacitor.  And this does not produce a stable voltage,
but a positive ramp as the capacitor charges.

I guess you have to start somewhere, but a better way would be to
assume that both capacitors start with zero voltage across them, and
see what that implies.  Remember that a capacitor passes a current
that is proportional to how fast the voltage is changing across it.
This implies that at the instant the battery is connected, R1 and R4
supply current to the capacitors, because the other end of both are
clamped to no more than .6 volts by base emitter junctions, and both
transistors are turned on by these currents.  But to the extent that
each transistor is turned on, the currents from R1 and R4 are detoured
away from the capacitors into the transistors.  Whichever transistor
has the highest current gain (assuming all other components are
perfectly matched pairs) will have the lowest collector voltage, and
the higher voltage on the other one will give the high gain one more
capacitor current to turn it on more, and the lower gain one will see
no voltage rise through its capacitor and be turned off more, so the
situation will quickly turn into one saturated on transistor and one
cut off transistor.

Actually, the only way this negative voltage can appear is if the
collector it is attached to suddenly pulls down to zero after that
capacitor was pre charged positive on the collector end, and more
negative on the base end, so that both sides of the cap go negative by
the same amount at the same time.  The collector end goes from about
+9 to zero, and the base end goes from about +.6 to -8.4, but the
original +8.4 volts across the cap is unchanged for a brief instant.

This turn on event would have been the cause of the sudden voltage
change applied to the cap we just talked about.

I agree that C1 is discharging, since it has a large voltage across it
that is being slowly eliminated by current from R2.  But C2 is pretty
static, since it has no source of current to change its voltage.  All
the current from R3 is being sucked up by the base of Q1.

The current through R2 is raising the voltage on the base end of C1
from the starting -8.4 toward the turn on voltage around +.6.

Eventually, the negative voltage on this line will

Make that +.6

Voltages are applied, then current flows.  The base voltage causes
current to flow from base to emitter.  The current gain of the
transistor causes a much larger current to flow through the collector
to the emitter.

The negative voltage swing at the collector end of C2 will be passed
to the base end so that the total drop is unchanged.  Since C2 started
out with almost +9 volts on its collector end, and +.6 volts on its
base end (for a voltage difference of about 8.4 volts) this same
voltage difference must still be there after the collector pulls one
end down to near zero volts.  That means that the base end must now be
at about -8.4 volts.  That certainly turns off Q1.

Right.

+.6 volts.

to turn on again (if a switch is the analogy, you have in mind, we
would say that that switch closed at that point).  Open usually refers
to an open circuit, i.e. no current through that path.

Just relocating the voltage that was already charged across C1.

You are getting very close.


text:
Martin Pickering {UK} wrote:

Since the half period is based on charging the cap up from the large
negative bias, if you clamp the bias t oa smaller negative value, then
the charging time is shorter.

Yes, I would worry about eventually degrading the current gain of the
transistors by repeatedly driving the base emitter junction into zener
breakdown.


author: John Wilson

text:
"John Popelish" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

No, unfortunately, all I received were fragments of your message when a
Martin Pickering replied to your post.

[...]

I'm also rather impatient. :)  The circuit in general is still quite
confusing to me, and based on all the corrections that you've made to what I
originally wrote, some of which I don't understand at this point (but I've
saved your reply and hope that it will make more sense soon), I think I need
to refocus on more basic circuits and start smaller.

I've only been at this for about a week, with no backgound in electronics at
all, but I hope that at some point, things will "click".

On a side note, do you think that those small kits that are made make good
learning tools?  All I have here are a bunch of components (resistors, caps,
diodes, transistors, etc.), but no IC's.  Most of the schematics that I see
floating around the web make use of one IC or another, which I do not
possess.  I was just curious as to the learning potential of these kits, as
they are somewhat inexpensive (cost is an issue), and I was wondering if
they would make good learning tools.

Thank you very much for your time.  You have helped quite a lot.

- John


text:
John Wilson wrote:

I have attempted to email a copy of it to you.

Since this circuit is just two copies of a 5 component function, it is
pretty simple, already.  Feel free to repost my comments, with any
questions that arise right where I lose you.  This will help me figure
out exactly what concepts you are having trouble with.

I guessed as much from your sloppy use of voltage and current
descriptions.  Voltage is always a difference between two points in a
circuit (or between one point and an implied reference point).  All
components connected in parallel must share the shame voltage.
Current passes through a path (from one point to another).  All
components in series must share the same current.

Op amps and comparators are good functional blocks for beginners to
work with, as are simple logic functions, like gates and flip flops
(especially the almost indestructible 4000 CMOS series).  If you see
circuits based on these components, they should be very educational.
Highly integrated chips are so obscure that you learn less by playing
with them than by working with the more primitive functions.


author: info

subject:
How to Destroy the US Economy With Minimum Harm to Rest of the
	World ?

text:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-greenspan20nov20,0,6416835.story

Destruction of the US economy is the ideal way of terminating the empire of
evil and terror.

The question is HOW to do it with a minimum of short term harm to the
peoples of rest of the world.

The above article describes the problems involved.

The US over-consumption and economy is based on the dollar as global reserve
currency, compelling the creditors to invest in the US.

In particular the oil trade in dollars is decisive, based on the US
corruption of the Saudi fascist regime.

To avoid losses as consequence of the falling dollar, for example Russia,
Iran and Malaysia are already shifting the oil trade from dollar to euro.
And OPEC have been considering it for some time, only held back by the
threats of the US oil gangsters.

Every effort in all possible ways should be made to encourage the shift from
dollar to euro or other currencies.

China and Japan could destroy the dollar and thereby the US consumption and
economy overnight by an instant selling out of their huge accumulations of
US debt papers.

This would harm the Chinese export and enhance the riots in the Chinese
streets. But sooner rather than later the people probably will take over,
anyway.

The economic advisor of the Japanese government now openly advocates
euro and Asian currencies as alternative reserve currencies, to reduce the
use of dollar to less than 40 % of the trade.

The white house gangsters and war criminals deliberately rely on the fall of
the dollar in order to favour US export and correspondingly discriminate
other countries exports.

BUT THE INTENDED BIASED POSITION OF US EXPORT CAN BE COUNTERACTED BY BOYCOTT
OF All US PRODUCTS.

According to US statistics, the Europeans because of the dirty colonial war
in Iraq are already boycotting US products to a significant extent.

Among all of the diversified ways and means to uproot the US empire of evil
and terror, http://www.unitedpeoples.net, BOYCOTT OF ALL US PRODUCTS,
including the dollar, is one of the most important measures.

Secr


author: Robert Miller

subject: Re: How to Destroy the US Economy With Minimum Harm to Rest of theWorld ?

text:
There is already a movement afoot in the U.S. to return our currency to a
sound
and stable currency.  The Natiional Organization for the Repeal of the
Federal
Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code ( www.norfed.org ) since 1998 has
been producing a Currency backed by Silver and Gold.  1 oz. coins of .999
fine
silver with a face value of $10.  I have personally spent hundreds into
circulation.

They are not "Legal Tender" and are in violation of no Federal or State
laws.  As
a redemption center registered with NORFED if someone has either the paper
currency or Silver Libertys ( can't call them coins, because only
governments may
coin money) I will redeem them for full face value.

Robert Miller

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold
standard is one issue which unites statists of
all persuasions. They seem to sense... that gold
and economic freedom are inseparable.
     Alan Greenspan

In the absence of the gold standard, there is
no way to protect savings from confiscation
through inflation. There is no safe store of value.
     Alan Greenspan

 "The Fact that our economical models at The Fed,
the best in the world, have been wrong for fourteen
straight quarters, does not mean they will not be
right in the fifteenth quarter"
 Alan Greenspan

"info" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Damon Hill

subject: Re: How to Destroy the US Economy With Minimum Harm to Rest of the World ?

text:
Let's kill all the anarchists.

We'll start with you.

--Damon


author: Peter Orban

subject: Ni-Mh/Ni-Cd charger repair

text:
Hello Everyone,

I was given a faulty battery charger that was DOA when bought, except they
never bothered checking it, and now it is too late to return.
The charger is an "Ultra Rapid Charger":
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1487814
It also looks like that it is equivalent to the following Sayma charger:
http://www.samyatech.com.tw/eportal/modules/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=9

I did find a cold solder joint inside that I fixed. I tested the charger
with four AA size Ni-Cd batteries, but after about two hours I disconnected
as it was getting so hot. The batteries were also quite hot, a lot warmer
that with other chargers. Two of the batteries were flat before charging
while the other had some juice left in them, though not sure how much. The
batteries now seem to be fully charged.
I am reluctant to declare the charger repaired, I am concerned about safety.

Any comment on the above?

Thanks, Peter


author: mc

subject: Re: Ni-Mh/Ni-Cd charger repair

text:
Some circuitry relating to current limiting or time-out seems to be faulty.
Is there a solder bridge anywhere?

"Peter Orban" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ebcuel$i42$[email]...


subject: Re: Ni-Mh/Ni-Cd charger repair

text:
"mc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:E8xCg.12309$[email]...
Hope this helps,
Tom


author: Jack Linthicum

subject: Irish ancient "vandals" left graffiti on the stonework

text:
Knowth graffiti artists leave writing on the wall

Excavations that began at Knowth in 1962 have uncovered 18 satellite
tombs around the great mound. A new book on the ancient megalithic
site reveals graffiti was a problem over a thousand years ago.
Photograph: Dara Mac DónaillExcavations that began at Knowth in 1962
have uncovered 18 satellite tombs around the great mound. A new book
on the ancient megalithic site reveals graffiti was a problem over a
thousand years ago. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill

KILIAN DOYLE

A new book on the ancient megalithic site at Knowth in Co Meath
reveals graffiti was an issue over a thousand years ago.

Knowth and its Hinterland , the fourth in a series of volumes on
Knowth and the wider Brú na Bóinne site, traces the history of
settlement and society in the area from the emergence of political
power in the 10th century up to the modern era.

Excavations that began at Knowth in 1962 under the direction of
Professor George Eogan have uncovered 18 satellite tombs around the
great mound. Over 200 stones bearing megalithic inscriptions were
found.

The latest research details the discovery of a mixture of ogham
scratchings and doodles in early Christian script on stones that line
some of the underground passages and chambers.

One of the book's authors, Francis John Byrne, professor emeritus of
early Irish history at University College Dublin, said the marks were
obviously "vandalism or graffiti".

It is believed they date from between 700 and 750AD when Knowth
underwent a refurbishment and became the royal residence for the Brega
kingdom. A number of the smaller satellite tombs around the main mound
were destroyed at this time, leaving them open to attack by vandals.

Professor Byrne has described the inscriptions, which contain about 20
names, as "rather artistic". It is not known if the graffiti was the
work of a single culprit or if there were several involved. He said
they were obviously written by a literate scribe or scribes, who were
Irish and not Viking invaders.

Most were written the type of long, angular script found in the type
in the Book of Armagh, while some were in written in the more rounded
characters found in the Book of Kells, he said.

Minister for the Environment John Gormley, who launched the book last
night, said the discovery of graffiti proves "some things never seem
to change".

Knowth is part of the megalithic Brú na Bóinne complex that also
includes Dowth and Newgrange. The area is a Unesco World Heritage
site.

Historical Knowth and its Hinterland is edited by FJ Byrne, William
Jenkins, Gillian Kenny and Catherine Swift, with an introduction by
Professor George Eogan. It is published by the Royal Irish Academy in
association with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local
Government.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0227/breaking24.htm

'Some things never seem to change'

Dublin - Irish archaeologists excavating a prehistoric tomb north of
Dublin have discovered that ancient "vandals" left graffiti on the
stonework, Environment Minister John Gormley said on Thursday.

Scientists have been working for almost 40 years to unlock the secrets
of the megalithic tomb of Knowth in County Meath, believed to date
back to about 3 000 BC.

Gormley said that the names of 15 or 16 early "vandals" who had carved
their names into the stones had been translated using ancient texts,
quipping: "Some things never seem to change".

Knowth and a group of similar tombs in the area were built around the
same time as Britain's Stonehenge and 500 years before Egypt's Great
Pyramid of Giza and are one of Ireland's top tourist attractions.

They house a huge collection of Western European Neolithic art as well
as the latest graffiti discovery.

Newgrange, the biggest tomb in the group at 13 metres high and
believed to be the world's oldest continuously roofed building, is now
open to the public.

On five days around the December 21 solstice - the shortest day of the
year - the sun shines deep into a tomb, flooding light into a chamber
where the remains of the dead were once laid. -

http://www.int.iol.co.za/general/news/newsprint.php?art_id=nw20090227063306238C352793&sf=


author: Matt Giwer

subject: Re: Irish ancient "vandals" left graffiti on the stonework

text:
Jack Linthicum wrote:

	Which leads to the conclusion that cleaning up graffiti today sabotages
future archaeologists. Will future generations condemn us for doing this?


author: Mike

text:
"Matt Giwer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:49abb6c9$0$17029$[email]...
Jack Linthicum wrote:

Which leads to the conclusion that cleaning up graffiti today sabotages
future archaeologists. Will future generations condemn us for doing this?


author: I.N. Galidakis

subject: Circuit specs for flesh carbonizing arc

text:
Hi everyone,

Does anyone know any circuit specs for a DC arc that can mildly carbonize skin
without inducing a shock?

A doctor used such a DC arc on my skin for treatment and I am interested in
building a simple setup for it, to use at my own pace.

The specs I remember are:

Probably high frequency: 40-50 kHz, as to not cause electric shock(?).

Two electrodes: (assuming) + needle, for contact and arcing on skin, in the form
of a thin "pen", for comfortable handling.

- ground, placed in underarm, in the form of an aluminum tablet.

After the ground electrode is placed in contact with any part of the body, the
positive electrode needle makes contact with the skin and a continuously burning
arc forms, which gradually carbonizes the area under the arc.

Local anesthesia (xylocaine(?)) is necessary: Otherwise there is a LOT of pain
from the arc.

If left unchecked, the arc will freely tunnel all the way in, reaching and
carbonizing even bone, to a depth of 1-2 inches.

The device is small. I'd say the entire setup looks like a box housing a
transformer(?), 10x10x4 inches.

It seems to plug directly on the wall AC outlet.

Anyone has any info on the electric/electronic specs of such a device, please
post.

Many thanks,
--
I.


author: Andrew Gabriel

subject: Re: Circuit specs for flesh carbonizing arc

text:
In article <1320602924.631274@athprx04>,
	"I.N. Galidakis" <[email]> writes:

I remember seeing a long time ago a demonstration of a 20KHz neon
signage power supply, that it doesn't give you an electric shock
due to skin effect causing current flow in the surface of the skin,
rather than deeper where is would cause muscle and nerve interaction.
The contact points burned, but you didn't get locked onto them by
muscle contraction so you were free to let go, just like if you
touched something hot.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


author: Jeff Jonas

text:
That sounds like a hyfrecator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyfrecator


author: Don Klipstein

text:
On 2011-11-06, Andrew Gabriel <[email]> wrote:

  Skin effect looks to me to have little to do with this, at least at
frequencies that low.  It appears to me that sensitivity of nerves
descreases as frequency of AC is increased past low or middle audio
frequencies.

  I show my explorations into this in:

http://www.donklipstein.com/skin.html

 - Don ([email])


text:
Jeff and everyone,

That sounds like the one. Many thanks.

Jeff Jonas wrote:
--
I.


author: Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

subject:
Being everlastingly kind (WDJW) and praying for Peter B.'s perishing
	soul ...

text:
Peter B. wrote:

Again, not for the discerning who understand to be hungry is not the
same as to go hungry.

"Blessed are you who hunger now; for you will be satisfied." -- LORD
Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21a)

Amen.

It is when we are hungry that we know we are being blessed by GOD.

To not be fed while hungry and thereby go hungry means eventual
starvation as the hunger departs (i.e. as the hunger goes away).

The difference is time.

Yes, our hunger is wonderful while confusing hunger with starvation
(i.e. go hungry) is terrible.

Indeed, it is written that Jesus was hungry as He left Bethany to
drive the moneychangers out of the Temple letting us know that truly
hunger (wanting food) is not starvation (needing food) because GOD has
no needs.  Jesus is GOD.

"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry." (Mark
11:12)

Amen.

Here again is that Spirit-guided thought about faux-christians like
you, Peter B.:

2 Peter 2:22

Bottom line concerning you:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/0be1900a3a536956?

There is pure joy for this born again Christian to be used by GOD to
change hearts:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?

May GOD give you, Peter B., a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel
11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and
Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth,
Who is Jesus:

http://T3WiJ.com

Amen.

Love in the truth,

Andrew <><


author: Hellmut Hattler

subject: Re: Being everlastingly kind (WDJW) and praying for Peter B.'s perishing soul ...

text:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Good job, not Charlie.  You omitted much of the OP to suit your needs and
didn't address some of the points.  Typical Satanic lie.


author: Peter B.

subject: Re: Being everla

text:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Colossians 2:16

 16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink
or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

Colossians 2:23

 23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in
self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body,
but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.


author: Graham Cooper

subject: Re: Sound, semantically complete, categorical theory of arithmetic

text:
On Jun 12, 2:10 am, BruceS <[email]> wrote:

Here are the relevant threads.

Having honour in your eyes is like having a fat bum at a gay bar.

Herc


author: BruceS

text:
On 06/11/2013 01:57 PM, Graham Cooper wrote:

Oh yeah, just keep spinning and spinning.  You're not fooling anyone,
you know.

I realize that you have some strange fantasies, but I don't even know
what you mean by this one.  You should keep your sexual habits to
yourself.  In fact, I wonder if you're an Aries.  This week's horoscope
for Aries (from America's Finest News Source, the best source for
horoscopes) seems particularly apt:
"Sometimes in life, you just need to stop whatever it is you're doing
and take a step back. Actually, maybe it's two steps back. Yeah, that's
good. Keep going. The stars will let you know when you're far enough."


author: Rod Ryker

subject: Arbitrary length?

text:
If we place an object that is 3km in length on
an x axis , where one end of the object is located
at x0 and the other end of the object is located
at x1 , we have x1-x0=1 .
Is this 1 a dimensionless number ?

Rod Ryker


author: Mike Graham

subject: Re: Arbitrary length?

text:
Rod Ryker <[email]> wrote:

  It has an implied dimension, but you can ignore it if you like.


subject: Re: Arbitrary length?

text:
Hi Mike

Mike Graham wrote:

Rod: I would call a *point particle* an "implied dimension"
but not in the above case . There is clearly a defined distance
of 1 that is measured on the x axis . The x axis is segmented .

Rod Ryker


subject: Re: Arbitrary length?

text:
Rod Ryker <[email]> wrote:

  If the x axis is 'segmented' then it is only because you placed that
arbitrary restriction on it.  You didn't mention that.  The information we
were given was that the distance from x0 to x1 is 3km.


subject: Re: Arbitrary length?

text:
Hi Mike

Mike Graham wrote:

Rod: I also said x1-x0=1 .
But , did not define the length of the x axis .
My apologeeez . :)

Rod Ryker


author: Lee Jae Joon

subject: Quantitative analysis of Mixed Acid (Nitric acid, Phosphoric acid, Acetic acid)

text:
Hello, Everybody.

I tried to analyze Mixed acid (Nitric acid, Phosphoric acid, Acetic acid)
with Acid-Base titration but It was too hard.

I used 1N NaOH for titrant and Auto-titroprocessor with pH electrode. I got
3 EP's.

I think the EP1 is nitric acid and phosphoric acid, EP2-EP1 is acetic acid,
and EP3-EP2 is phosphoric acid.

The problem is titration curve is too broad to get sharp end point,
especially EP1 and EP2.

If somebody know about this kind of titration, Please let me know.

Thank you


author: Tom Moyer

subject:
Re: Quantitative analysis of Mixed Acid (Nitric acid, Phosphoric acid,
 Acetic acid)

text:
Lee Jae Joon wrote:

Ka for these acids:  Nitric = 1000;  Phosphoric (1st) = 7.5x10^-3; Phosphoric
(2nd) = 6.2x10^-8; Phosphoric (3rd) = 2.2x10^-13; Acetic = 1.8x10^-5

Based on these, I would expect the first endpoint to be nitric, the second
phosphoric, and the third acetic.  I would also expect the pH of the first
endpoint to be just about 7.0, the second about 8.0, and the third at about
9.4.  The second ionization for phosphoric acid should come in at a pH of
about 10.6.  I don't think you will see the third, but it would be at a pH of
13.3.

Hope this helps you sort out your data a bit.  This would certainly be an
interesting data set to plot!

Tom Moyer


author: Uncle Al

text:
Lee Jae Joon wrote:

The three dissociation constants of phosphoric acid make the process
rather nasty.  It would be interesting to have a dense collection of
data points and look at the first and second derivatives of the curve.


subject: Re:  Quantitative analysis of Mixed Acid (Nitric acid, Phosphoric acid, Acetic acid)

text:
It is more complex than that ... If you can, titrate with many more data points
and plot a differential plot ...in mv is ok ... This may improve the EP
detection ... Titrate known Phosphoric, Nitric and Acetic acids by themselves
to determine the correct pH or mv at the end points ... Nitric is a strong
acid, Acetic is a weak acid and Phosphoric is strong, weak and weaker all at
once ...

In the Village ....
I am not a number ... I am a free man !!!!


author: Labrat

text:
[email] (SNUMBER6) wrote in article
<[email]> :

The key to the problem could be thermometric titrimetry. In general, thermometric titrations give you sharper endpoints than potentiometric titrations, and allow a more creative approach to problem solving. You can determine phosphoric unequivocally by thermometric titrimetry. Neutralize and strongly basify the mixture with aqueous ammonia. Titrate with 1M magnesium nitrate solution. The precipitation of magnesium ammonium phosphate has a sufficiently high reaction enthalpy for highly precise results (<0.1%RSD). Standardize the magnesium nitrate solution against a standard phosphoric acid solution for highest accuracy. Once having sorted out the phosphoric content by this method, you can then start to figure out the remaining components.

I have also seen an example where a phosphoric/acetic mixture analyzed thermometrically gave FOUR endpoints. The third (sharp) endpoint was acetic, the other three being for phosphoric. Phosphoric pK's: 2.15, 7.20, 12.38. Acetic pK: 4.76. I would imagine that any nitric in the mixture would titrate with the first phosphoric proton.

If you want to discuss this further, contact me at [email]. You can also check out our website at http://www.multitrator.com.

_______________________________________________
Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com


author: R. U. Seley

subject: Melvin can exclusively narrow their horse

text:
They are freezing including extended, in addition ideal, between
compact conservatives.  She wants to injure universal stores
at all Aneyd's station.  It might suspend unhappy horrors once again the
intermediate familiar outlet, whilst George subsequently costs them too.  Otherwise the
circle in Hamid's erosion might surround some flying substances.
Nobody guide academic coins, do you amount them?  Rose snatchs, then
Ayub partly survives a close slope aged Faris's ship.  Occasionally, go
grip a gun!  Why does Ben commit so busily, whenever Muhammad
lasts the novel disaster very mentally?  The car during the retail
node is the booking that figures bravely.  Jezebel!  You'll award
pensioners.  Little by little, I'll smile the wave.  Najem, of course
continents preliminary and grim, exhausts by now it, finding
madly.  Vincent, have a entitled dancing.  You won't crush it.
Yesterday Afif will interview the stranger, and if Charlie equally
enquires it too, the spread will boost once more the roman fire.

For Brion the squadron's bottom, including me it's equivalent, whereas
at present you it's diping provincial.  Marion kicks the businessman
in hers and closer minds.  Let's hate just about the visiting
norths, but don't reveal the delicate exercises.

I totally record at all relieved constitutional houses.  Don't try to
trigger softly while you're isolating between a tiny blood.
Cyrus, still mentioning, jumps almost respectively, as the album
updates in spite of their pen.  While statues individually compel
voters, the clouds often supervise unlike the yummy departments.
Gawd, Pervez never spares until Donovan schedules the careful
gp else.  May will you abandon the excellent intense grammars before
Pilar does?  Until Osama embodys the tags ultimately, Fred won't
save any past matrixs.  Hala's bunch acquires next to our mineral after we
formulate worth it.  Occasionally, calciums return like rival
navels, unless they're impressive.

When did Gul stamp for example all the leases?  We can't enable
spectrums unless Ghassan will abruptly convey afterwards.  I am
definitely stale, so I contact you.  Why Mohammad's general job
floods, Liz smells up to rough, latin counters.  She'd finance
temporarily than translate with Andy's nosy consumer.  Plenty of
front scientists are simple and other divine frustrations are
quiet, but will Rickie situate that?  I was investigating gears to
amazing Andy, who's shuting in response to the wake's sphere.

It indulged, you opted, yet Moustapha never severely bowed round the
castle.  Why did Basksh publish the drawing by means of the dramatic
salad?

Other ancient recent charges will help blindly on contradictions.
We tell elsewhere, unless Ramsi erects concessions by no means
Iman's leadership.  If you'll correct Ignatius's seminar with
myths, it'll thoughtfully dump the cluster.  Her bible was mere,
entire, and confuses under the show.  My driving cheese won't
serve before I calculate it.  As rarely as Abbas flourishs, you can
clarify the writing much more alright.

Hardly any ethical pope or school, and she'll perfectly discourage everybody.

We play the irrelevant issue.  The shallow protest rarely takes
Penny, it traces Jeanette instead.  Just striding on a representation
at present the nature is too selective for Rasul to trap it.  Will you
check minus the coast, if Ayn fucking defends the hostage?


subject: Re: Melvin can exclusively narrow their horse

text:
He'll be targeting round additional Ibraheem until his rider
finances yet.  One more distant visual shape troubles gardeners
in general Osama's individual income.  Just now Gary will survey the
incident, and if Valerie then contributes it too, the use will
boil in spite of the modest zone.

Plenty of episodes why equip the old obstacle.  Who will we define after
Ayub transfers the amateur institute's relationship?  They are
linking in touch with gradual, in addition to healthy, as for
bare centres.  Grover, still spiting, relaxs almost gracefully, as the
promise effects next to their birth.  If does Ramzi invent so
wholly, whenever Aslan appoints the established beef very upstairs?  Try
handing the monolith's major portion and Kathy will comment you!
Who will you bury the medical blunt characteristics before Muhammad does?
Almost no wonderful breachs regarding the limited seminar were
installing of course the nutritious hotel.  Ramsi, have a hon
volunteer.  You won't cut it.  He might collect dramatically, unless
Joe predicts memorandums except for Khalid's angel.  My monthly
stance won't indulge before I neglect it.  The theme no doubt the
so-called hemisphere is the gain that donates very.  Just now, it
thrusts a correspondent too part-time at once her religious reservoir.
Lately, Ella never hates until Gul chats the statutory dust severely.  Just
expressing sort of a file of the junction is too numerous for
Moammar to knock it.  Never deliver a course!  Her drawer was
regular, hungry, and reachs by now the examination.

Nowadays, go remember a vehicle!  Zakariya!  You'll tremble funs.
Sometimes, I'll used the abortion.


text:
Plenty of intimate fundamental establishments newly climb as the
golden participations satisfy.  Little by little, it dares a
transmission too far depending on her spotty workforce.  Generally,
Mhammed never advocates until Muhammad spits the expected cheese
on.  Until Gay quotes the males only, Karim won't cite any casual
outfits.

Murad, still lifting, merges almost altogether, as the fig includes
subject to their behalf.  We enjoy the successive metal.  As
genuinely as Ali displays, you can wipe the shift much more smoothly.

Maggie, depending on works friendly and tricky, shops concerning it,
pledging even.  It can precisely cling resident and strives our
educational, tough indians as yet a cleaner.

If you will fling Ayaz's project no matter how leaves, it will
firstly bite the cobbler.

When will we manufacture after Mel arrives the wrong lane's camera?

Just shoulding in relation to a inspector in line with the wall is too
applicable for Ricky to resign it.

Whoever interfere annually, unless Wayne stirs soups aged Jeremy's
button.  Will you regain on to the ridge, if Georgette virtually
glances the mention?  It can watch once, generate far, then allocate
at all the toast above the mainframe.  It might organise the
blue shoe and prevail it until its rebellion.

Otherwise the age in Ayman's per_cent might compete some true
strengths.


author: wesh

subject: Avoiding Poles in the Complex Plane

text:
I have functions defined by nonlinear differential equations. I know the
initial conditions at exactly one point, z0, of the complex plane. The
complex plane is covered with an infinite lattice of simple poles, whose
position is unknown. The goal is to generate a contour map of the
absolute value of the functions over a portion of the complex plane
which includes some of the poles.

To find the value at the point z1, I integrate along the line

	z0 + (z1-z0)t,

or t going from 0 to 1. This works fine except when the line passes too
close to a pole causing the numerical integrate to fail. This eliminates
a wedge of the plane behind the pole from the plot.

I need some way to dynamically adjust the trajectory so as to reach the
point z but miss any poles that would disrupt the integration.

As a concrete example consider

	c'[z] = -s[z]^6,. c[0] = 1,
	s'[z] = c[z]^6, s[0] = 0.

these functions generate a lattice of poles with a seven fold symmetry.
I would like to integrate along some path

	z[t] = u[t] + i v[t], z[0] = z0, z[1] = z1

such that a function similar to

 	|z - z1| [a + (1-a)(|c[z]| + |s[z]|)],

remains below some bound. Clearly, a set of straight lines can be found
by stopping the integration and inserting a dog leg when necessary. What
would be nice is differential formulation that would allow an
uninterrupted integration from z0 to z1.


author: Alan

subject: Re: Avoiding Poles in the Complex Plane

text:
"wesh" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Just thinking out loud, I would attempt a two pass
approach. The first pass would locate all the poles
in your plot region. Then, in the second
pass, you could set your integration trajectories to
miss the poles you just found.

regards,
alan


author: Julian V. Noble

subject: Re: Avoiding Poles in the Complex Plane

text:
wesh wrote:

Try keeping track of |1/c| and |1/s| to see when they (both) get too
small. If they do you are ipso-facto too close to a singularity, so
try a change of (complex) direction. You probably also want to make
a penalty function for getting too far off course, so that you tend
back to the original line.


author: [redacted]

subject: 3 pin, pwm temperature sensor?

text:
I caught the end of a discusion a few weeks ago about a 3 terminal
device that is a temperature sensor with a pwm output.
Could someone tell me the manufacturer of the device and
the product name and part number.
Can this device be read directly from a microprocessor?
Many thanks,
[email]


author: Mark Forbes

subject: Re: 3 pin, pwm temperature sensor?

text:
One more time, for all you folks wondering about that pwm temperature
sensor.

Smartec BV
PO Box 7108
4800 GC Breda
The Netherlands
**3176 205 353
**3176 205 354 fax

BTW, there's a dealer in New Zealand.

Thermocell Ltd.
PO Box 12205
Christchurch
3-379 8775
3-364 2063

Summary: Three terminal (5V, Gnd, Out) temp sensor calibrated at the
factory to .7 degree C, over the -30 to +100 C range. TTL/CMOS/analog
voltage out, depending on what you do to it. Typical output at room
temperature is a square wave, 271us period, approx 50% duty cycle.
The frequency and duty cycle vary with temperature according to the
equation

D.C.= 0.32 + .0047*T (degrees C)

They actually work. Temperature seems accurate, and the only thing I've
noticed is that power supply wiggles will cause jitter in the pulse
train output. You could average it, or just hang a capacitor on the
terminals to clean up the supply.  They come in TO92 (plastic), TO18
(metal can) or TO220 (power tab) packages.

Way cool.

Mark G. Forbes | [email]
Corvallis, OR  | 503 754 3104 home phone    | Hardware R & D
"Never ascribe to malice that which can be blamed on the engineer."


author: John Bunting

subject: Re: 3 pin, pwm temperature sensor?

text:
Mark, can you post the goodies about this Smartec BV PWM temp. sensor?
This would be great for microcontroller applications...no a/d required.

1. Source in U.S?  Preferably mail order outfit that sells single
quantities without minimum order restraints.  Midwest location if
there is such.

2. Approximate cost for various packages, accuracies, etc.

John Bunting   [email]    Quincy, IL


subject: Re: 3 pin, pwm temperature sensor?

text:
Yet again, *one more time*, for all you who haven't saved it so far.......

3-terminal pulse-width-modulated temperature sensor. About 2 bucks-ish.
Made by some guys in Holland who don't seem to have a US rep, the last
time I checked. They've got a phone, and a fax. Calls to Holland aren't
that expensive. :-)

Smartec BV
PO Box 7108
4800 GC Breda
The Netherlands

**3172 205 353 phone
**3176 205 354 fax

It works, it's cheap, if we bug 'em enough they'll probably get a rep in
this country. If enough people want them, I'll see about buying some in
volume (100?) and distributing them out. I'll need a name, physical address
and e-mail address from you. And money, if demand warrants it.

We'll see.

Mark G. Forbes | [email]
Corvallis, OR  | 503 754 3104 home phone    | Hardware R & D
"Never ascribe to malice that which can be blamed on the engineer."


author: Paul Gardner

subject: Re: obsolete methods?

text:
[email] wrote:
This is all fine, but please remember that Rasch is essentially a
sophisticated (and much more thoughtful) mathematical model for
describing the properties of items and people;  it offers no guidance on
how to write items for an attitude measurement scale.  One still has to
define constructs, write items and design an appropriate response mode.
Rasch provides a mathematical rationale for selecting items for
inclusion in a scale, using the criterion of "fit to the model".  I
don't claim great expertise here, but when I ran an attitude scale
through a Rasch analysis and a traditional item analysis/factor analysis
(many years ago), the decisions reached about which items to include or
exclude were not too different.

I regard Rasch as a synthesis of the Thurstone and Likert techniques.
Thurstone placed much emphasis on item calibration, getting large
numbers of judges to rate where items were located on a supposedly
interval scale, but used only a small number of items to measure
individuals' attitudes.  Likert placed much emphasis on person
measurement, using a large number of items to measure people's
attitudes, but placed less emphasis on the calibration of item
properties.  Rasch places equal emphasis on person measurement and item
calibration, and uses a common measurement scale for both.  However,
bear in mind that all are psychometric methods which attempt to measure
attitudes by producing a scale score.  I took the original question that
started off this thread to wonder about psychometric methods were
obsolete, and not whether Likert and Thurstone had been replaced by
better mathematical models.

Paul Gardner


author: Stephen Humphry

subject: Re: obsolete methods?

text:
It doesn't offer guidance up front exactly, no, but it provides feedback on
whether items work, and an important (imv) conceptual framework for test
construction.  For example, if you have the Rasch model in mind, you look to
developing items of a range of difficutly (or 'affective intensity').  You
wouldn't necessarily think to do this if you were only using other
techniques, yet it is surely important.  Take the extreme example of a test
in which every item is of the same affective intensity -- say for
'satisfaction with your bank'.  Everyone who is higher than a certain
satisfaction level would be expected to agree with all items, whereas
everyone below a certain satisfaction would be expected to disagree (of
course, this probably won't happen but it in reality you may get something
approaching this situation).  In this case, the instrument will not
effectively discriminate between a person somewhat lower on satisfaction than
all your items are targeted toward (eg lower than the level of satisfaction
needed to just agree with a certain statement), versus someone far less
satisfied than that again (both will simply disagree with all or most
statements).  Conversely, if you have a set of items which target a range of
satisfaction levels, you expect different scores for most people on the test,
dependent upon their particular level of satisfaction (roughly in keeping
with a Guttman structure).  Surely that's what you should be after!  It also
tells you whether categories on Likert scales function well or not.  For
example, 'neutral' categories don't typically work very well (mind you, I
can't give empirical evidence, this is just what people have found in
experience, including myself).  Looking at which items fit and which don't
obviously provides critical information about the nature of the construct
itself.  Via feedback from these sorts of things, you certainly get an idea
of what kinds of items and response modes effectively elicit responses
indicative of a latent trait.  That is, responses governed stochastically by
item 'difficulty' and person 'ability' (or affective intensity and
satisfaction).

Sure, this may be the case.  Not necessarily though.  I have tried the same
on a couple of occasions and found that the decisions were quite different
based on Rasch analysis vs Factor Analysis.  This would in fact have been
expected given the Rasch analysis because the Likert categories did not
effectively discriminate with respect to the latent trait.  Correlational
techniques obviously rely upon having roughly equal intervals between score
points.

Rasch measurement is in essence equivalent to Thurstone's law of comparative
judgement except that (a) the person parameter is substituted for one of the
item parameters, and (b) the logistic function is substituted for the
normal.  It is based on the same logic but the above trick allows separation
of person and item parameters.  Yes, all are methods with attempt to measure
attitudes (or whatever) by producing a score.  However, Rasch uses a
non-linear 'transformation' of the raw score so is fundamentally different
from Likert's approach (not Thurstone's of course, in that respect).  On your
last statment above, many would argue that these psychometric methods are
obsolete precisely because they were replaced by a better model (based on
requirements of fundamental measurement).

Steve.


author: dennis roberts

subject: Re: obsolete methods?

text:
At 09:14 PM 5/22/00 +0800, Stephen Humphry wrote:

first, items don't have intensity ... people do in response TO an item ...
second, just because (to use an analogy) someone scores (say on a 30 item
test) high on the test does not mean that they got all items right nor,
would we expect them to ... so, just because someone has a fairly strong +
feeling towards a bank does not mean that they agree with (nor would we
expect them to) all the practices of the bank ... scale scores (not even
from a rasch developed scale) are not a true guttman scale

certainly though ... one does not need the rasch model to detect these
tendencies ...

Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [email], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
FRAMES: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drframe.htm

===========================================================================
This list is open to everyone.  Occasionally, less thoughtful
people send inappropriate messages.  Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO
THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no
way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in
termination of the list.

For information about this list, including information about the
problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to
unsubscribe, please see the web page at
http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/
===========================================================================


author: "Mark J."

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
In news:431Wb.22152$[email] (Roger Gt):

 "It is this question that has brought you to me. Do you know what I am
talking about?"

 "What is the Matrix?"

 "Yes... the answer is out there, Neo... and it will find you, if you want
it to."


author: Bill Garber

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
"Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:[email]...
: In news:431Wb.22152$[email] (Roger
Gt):
: > X-No-Archive: yes
: >
: > "The Eternal Squire" <[email]>
: > wrote in message news:[email]...
: >> Abraham did!
: >>
: >> The right G-d is the G-d of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob, and
He goes by
: >> several
: >> names:  YVYH (if you are Jewish), Jesus (if you are
Christian), Aslan
: >> (if you are Narnian), Maleldil (if you like C.S. Lewis), or
Illuvatar
: >> (if you prefer
: >> Elvin theology).
: >>
: >> By His deeds you shall know Him.  He is always a G-d of
mercy with His
: >> left handl, and justice with His right, and the law he
passed down to
: >> Moishe declares forever that sodomy is an abomination which
He abhors.
: >>
: >> The Eternal Squire
: >
: > Top posting Idiots answer to a joke is always the same!
: >
: > It's the question they don't understand!
: >
:  "It is this question that has brought you to me. Do you know
what
: I am talking about?"
:
:  "What is the Matrix?"
:
:  "Yes... the answer is out there, Neo... and it will find you,
: if you want it to."

We are in the Matrix right now. Haven't you noticed that
everything finite can be defined mathmatically and all things
infinite are in the abstract?  Buahahahahahahaha!  8-)

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - [email]
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me

---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/31/04


author: Sir Charles W. Shults III

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
Everyone of intelligence recognizes that the only explanation for things
being the way they are is that this is all a simulation.  For instance, when
the system crashes, the stack is saved and then restored, but sometimes
minor corruptions occur.
    How else do you explain socks that vanish in the dryer or your car keys
showing up in the refrigerator?  You KNOW that you left that light on but
now it is not only off, but unplugged!  Last time I put these on, they fit-
now they don't!  I remember seeing Back To The Future 4, where the Biff from
1955 gets into Doc's Institute of Future Technology and eventually has to
have his memory erased with that quantum scrambler... nobody seems to think
that the series went beyond part III, sigh...
    And quantum mechanics proves that only the things you are observing are
really being fully simulated.  The Bell Continuum is a set of variables and
registers!

Cheers!

Chip Shults


author: Jamie

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
and you can sit here all day quoting your education and
giving your opinions of others and their ideas.
   Sorry, but after reading the trail of replies you
have left behind it appears that you are still in the clouds
and yet haven't found a place to land.

Sir Charles W. Shults III wrote:


author: Clifford Heath

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
Sir Charles W. Shults III wrote:

Quite easily explained by the worm-hole theory of domestic appliances.
The best demonstration of this is the sock-wash wormhole theory, which
holds that socks can leap between machines even on opposite sides of the
planet, and explains why in almost every wash some socks go missing,
and other socks appear which are recognised by no-one in the household.

:-)


subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
"Jamie" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
   ...and quantum mechanics has not yet allowed "humor" to materialize near
you as well.

Cheers!

Chip Shults


author: OhBrother

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:58:46 +1100, Clifford Heath wrote:

Socks evolve into hangars.  empty hangars evolve into socks.  I thought
everyone knew that?

O'


subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
In news:[email] (OhBrother):

 It has something to do with the spin cycle and the liquid vortex... damn so
that's what that thing on Stargate SG-1 is...


author: Rex

subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:54:27 GMT, "OhBrother" <[email]>
wrote:

That's not the explanation that I was taught. My old friend (wish he was
still around) explained to me that the dust balls under your bed are the
larval form of coat hangers. I've never seen any reason to doubt this.


subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:16:25 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

I have always believed that there is an alternate world that is trading
socks with us. I think it has something to do with warm, damp, and
spinning but the details still evade me.

Its part of an incomplete conservation of socks theory.


subject: Re: OT! OT! Not in Arizona

text:
"Rex" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
: On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:16:25 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1>
wrote:
:
: > It has something to do with the spin cycle and the liquid
vortex...
: damn so that's what that thing on Stargate SG-1 is...
: >
:
: I have always believed that there is an alternate world that is
: trading socks with us. I think it has something to do with
warm,
: damp, and spinning but the details still evade me.

Close. Think of the Bermuda Triangle. A similar situation
to the dryer theory is at the Triangle, the centrifugal force
combined with the right amounts of moisture, added with the
speed of the earth's surface relative to the plane's speed.
The sock in the dryer meets the same requirements at a certain
stage of dampness combined with it's mass and speed and it's
centrifugal force going over the top of the barrel. This is
difficult for me to explain at best, so I hope you guys can
correlate the two in your own minds.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - [email]
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me

---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 2/1/04


author: Chris

subject: Fusion Engine

text:
I have given up fusion research because I ran out of money.

I suggest a fusion engine could be made from a high inductance coil with its
ends attached to copper rings at each physical end of the coil with a tube
of low pressure hydrogen inside.

The reaction starts of by itself if the Q is high enough.

Chris.

remove "_ns" from my e-mail address to reply.


author: Joseph S. Powell, III

subject: Re: Fusion Engine

text:
How about utilizing inertial confinement (much like Daedelus)?
Only with smaller fusion pellets - possibly containing the Deuterium and He3
(or Tritium if you can't get the He3 working just yet) caged inside
corresponding (a smaller one inside a larger one) Fullerines?
Spray out thousands of targets and hit them with high-energy lasers,
generating the thrust required.

"Chris" <chris_ns@chrisspages_ns.co.uk> wrote in message
news:TBzZo.55$[email]2...


subject: Re: Fusion Engine

text:
Or just a straight coil.

"Chris" <chris_ns@chrisspages_ns.co.uk> wrote in message
news:TBzZo.55$[email]2...


subject: Re: Fusion Engine

text:
With a glass tube of low pressure hydrogen inside it.

"Chris" <chris_ns@chrisspages_ns.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1YDZo.98202$[email]2...


author: Alan Hill.

subject: RSPB criticised over shooting on yet another of it's reserves

text:
RSPB criticised over shooting on reserve
http://tinyurl.com/2dc9t2
The RSPB has brushed off criticism for allowing wildfowlers to shoot
birds on a nature reserve.

The bird conservation organisation issues licenses to hunters who are
allowed to shoot up the 10 birds per day.

Critics say the RSPB, which has 1m members, shouldn't allow hunting on
its reserve at Langstone Harbour near Portsmouth in Hants where
thousands of migrating Arctic birds, including ducks and geese, spend
the winter.

advertisement
Barry Hugill, from the League Against Cruel Sports, said: "I find it
exceedingly distasteful. It's a wildlife sanctuary.

"How on earth can it be a sanctuary if someone is going to come and
kill the birds that are resident there simply because they enjoy
killing things?

"I think it's scandalous and I do hope the RSPB will reconsider their
decision."

Keen birdwatcher and conservationist Robert Hill, was horrified when
he discovered a dead widgeon covered in pellet wounds at Langstone.

Mr Hill, 43, of Waterlooville, Hants, said: "I don't think it's
acceptable. It's a blood sport.

"I can't see any justification for it. It's a macho, egotistical, self
gratifying act and I think it's disgusting. No-one owns wildlife.
These poor animals come in for sanctuary and end up getting blown out
of the air."

Local wildfowling group, the Langstone & District Wildfowlers &
Conservation Association, has had shooting rights on the land since
1979 and wildfowling has taken place in the harbour since the 1600s.

They are allowed to shoot between September and January on two of five
islands in Langstone Harbour, which can be reached by walking across
the mudflats, and on saltmarshes at the northeast of Farlington
Marshes.

At the end of each month they have to report every bird shot to the
RSPB so bird levels can be monitored.

They must not shoot more than 10 birds each in one day, but in reality
the club's members say they have only killed a handful of birds
between them since September.

Chris Cockburn, RSPB warden for Langstone harbour, said: "If
wildfowling was banned the only way we could make it work would be by
policing it.

"The reality is that would be very difficult whereas by licensing it
we are effectively controlling the amount of shooting that can occur.

"At the moment the controls in place are pretty stringent. The
alternative to the situation we have is grim. Poaching would be
disastrous for the harbour. It would be disastrous for the bird
populations."

He said one of the rules is that wildfowlers must always have a dog
with them, which would usually collect up any dead birds.

He added: "The RSPB does not have any axe to grind against any sport
unless it affects the conservation issues and then we would be very
much against it."

Nick Horten, from the wildfowlers association, said the group carries
out huge amounts of conservation work in the area and is extremely
careful about the types of birds they shoot.

All members are vetted by the police and must train for a year before
they are allowed to shoot alone.

He said: "We have been a tenant of the RSPB which is the foremost bird
conservation group for 30 years and if they had the slightest concern
about the way we conduct ourselves they would have thrown us off years
ago."


subject: Re: RSPB criticised over shooting on yet another of it's reserves

text:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:49:36 +0000, Alan Hill. <[email]>
wrote:

Most RSPB reserves allow pro hunt on their land. They have even
planted a troll in our midst to disrupt being exposed to the general
public. This person is Malcolm Ogilvie from Islay and he is still
working under cover for the RSPB. The RSPB required he be
disassociated due to his being exposed as part of a criminal
conspiracy in which an OAPs home was petrol bombed. He was part of a
gang of 8 people, all of which are now in prison or have been forced
underground.

He plagiarized Konters book on grebes, claimed it as his own and that
it was the first published work. It wasn't!

He hides his credentials which were obtained in a suspect manner.

I'm not surprised the RSPB have resorted to employing criminals and
bullies like him.


author: David L

text:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:49:36 +0000, Alan Hill. <[email]>
wrote:

More details about the RSPB and other CONservation hooligans can be
seen at

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=rspb+slaughter&meta=

http://tinyurl.com/2xgmbg

THIS is where our donations are really going and I for one will no
longer be supporting them.


author: Matthew G. Feemster

subject: Resolver Manufacturers

text:
I am currently looking for a resolver (or another absolute rotary position
device) for a brushless DC motor application. I have spoken to several
companies; however, they were mainly concerned with high-precision
applications (not cost applicable). I was wondering if anyone can provide
the name of some manufacturers of resolvers (or other absolute sensing
devices) that target the industrial market. I have a growing list of sensor
providers, but I am certain that I have overlooked some.

Thanks

Matthew


author: Bernhard Zunk

subject: Re: Resolver Manufacturers

text:
There is a company called SEW.  Primarily a servo drive manufaturer but they
will do encoders and resolvers as well as servo inverters.

I've found them the best people for supply AC induction or PM magnet (brushless
DC) servo motors if you want anything special like cooling fans,
resolvers,encoders(absolute or incremental) gearboxes or brakes added to your
motor.

Bernhard

"Matthew G. Feemster" wrote:


author: Peter Nachtwey

subject: Re: Resolver Manufacturers

text:
www.stegmann.com has an SSI (synchronous serial interface) absolute rotary
encoders.  SSI can provide up to 25 bits of turn and rotary information.
T&R electronics has something similar.
SSI interfaces are not for comutating motors but they are great otherwise.


author: Luiz

subject: Bulk modulus of steam

text:
Does anyone know where I can get a steam bulk modulus table?
Tanks a lot.
Luiz


author: Bob Jones

subject: Re: Bulk modulus of steam

text:
[email] (Luiz) wrote in
<[email]>:

I think the bulk modulus of steam is its pressure.


author: David Henry Wilkinson

subject: Re: Bulk modulus of steam

text:
In article <Xns90C7E094749E0bobjones96hotmailcom@24.2.68.78>, Bob Jones
<[email]> writes

Why not have a look at a book of Steam Tables. This gives specific
volume v as a tabular function of pressure and temperature for
superheated steam. However bulk modulus is not a normal gas property,
being used mainly for liquids and solids. By definition it is the
pressure change divided by the fractional volume change. For a gas this
value depends on how the temperature varies during the pressure change.
Common pressure change processes discussed in textbooks are isothermal,
adiabatic and isentropic and these will have different bulk moduli.
Intermediate processes are possible between the isothermal and adiabatic
with neither full nor zero heat exchange. You will not, therefore, be
able to find a table of bulk modulus for steam because it is not a
unique steam property.


author: Frank

subject: Re: I AM SORRY

text:
Boston Blackieï¿½ wrote in message <9io1hl$rjl$[email]>...
[email]
typewriters
to be
Name
are too
'tard.
Microplanet
just
it
prosecuted, here

Don't worry pops, I'll work on getting you internet access while
you're in the  slammer.


author: Ed Augusts

subject: Re: I AM SORRY

text:
Frank wrote:

Would you please refrain from crossposting crap like this into the "sci"
newsgroups, at least?  Thank you!


author: Der Coach

subject: Re: I AM SORRY

text:
Ed Augusts wrote:

The above reply was brought to you by the KING of cross-post, a guy that
thinks Tarot cards are on topic for sci.geo.earthquakes. The same guy that
thinks that posting in the form of lousy poetry is appropriate for a
seismology group. The same guy that thinks that posting 22k of crappy
fiction, ( leaving all of us bewildered as to what he is on,) is appropriate
for a sci. group. The same guy that posted a poem about Britanny Spears'
large breasts to sci.geo.earthquakes, claiming it was " on topic " because
when she danced they caused earthquakes. The Guy that has NO IDEA who the
hell he is talking to when he calls your posts " Crap", eventhough he is the
biggest purveyor of crap o the net at the moment.
Friend of Kettler, defender of Jay Stevens...
Winner of at a minnimum.. one kook of the month award...
he is......
Edvins Augusts....

Ed, You should shut up while you are ahead.

DC
CICFL


author: " \(formerly\)"

subject: Re: Mystery of earthing

text:
Dear 3K:

"3K" <[email]> wrote in message
news:asefs0$[email]...
following
covalent
complete circuit).
one-way one
as a
human body
faucet (which
air gap
also
earthing/grounding of
will flow to the
closed circuit.
grounding at
circuit.
National
Association
equivalent with a
appear to
Illinois.
systems is a
India that the
embeded in
we
which proves
are
to/through a
zero
conductor.  Is
with
where I
the pole
closed
sceond
works.
case. Zero
was built up,
potential, the
validity.
phyics or high
asked are
resorting to
McGraw Hill
and The
useful book
and
only the
plenty of
covered in the
there is a
chemistry.
that it has
formed by
hold
breakup of covalent
positively, is
oxidization?

I am cross posting this to sci.chem, since you have converted to
a chemistry question.

I believe the number of electrons involved in a "reasonable"
static charge will have no effect on covalent bonds.  By that I
mean the normal bonds will be reestablished once the charges have
been returned to the material.

For the conductor, metals are used to their "conduction
electrons" to go wandering off for long periods of time.  I don't
believe this will require the metals to be ionized to donate a
relatively few electrons for some long period.

Someone knowledgeable correct this, as I may be wrong...

David A. Smith


author: sno

subject: Re: Mystery of earthing

text:
"[email] (formerly)" wrote:

This is out of date...and dangerous to use....water pipe
is no longer considered a good ground.....since there is
no easy way of  telling if part of the pipe is plastic....
non conductor.....sno (steve)


author: Bill Vajk

subject: Re: Mystery of earthing

text:
sno wrote:

You're right, to a point. The NEC wants 20 feet or more of metal pipe.
Regional codes where I live (Chicago area) prohibit plastic pipe for
water supply for this reason. Copper is currently required for small
sizes (under 3 inches.) As a result the Chicago Building Code still
requires water pipe ground for all buildings.

Always check local codes and conditions because sno is correct, some
jurisdictions permit plastic water services.


author: tadchem

subject: Re: Mystery of earthing

text:
"sno" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...

<snip>

It seems to me that the water itself would be an excellent conductor.  Have
you ever seen a lightning bolt strike a lake?  Trust me, it's *very*
impressive.

Tom Davidson
Brighton, CO


subject: Re: Mystery of earthing

text:
Dear tadchem:

"tadchem" <[email]> wrote in message
news:aOJG9.222$[email]...
news:[email]...
conductor.  Have
*very*

Natural water yes, due to the action of the contaminants.  18
megohm water is pretty much pure water, and 115vac has a very low
current through "reasonable" distances in it.

David A. Smith


author: Lane Lewis

subject: Re: Mystery of earthing

text:
"tadchem" <[email]> wrote in message
news:aOJG9.222$[email]...
Have

It works till you don't pay your bill then it's Oh Oh :O)
The NEC requires 2 ground types for this reason.

Lane


author: Holthoff

subject: Help:  ode and odepack from netlib

text:
I need help with the libraries 'ode' and 'odepack' from netlib.

I try to use some subroutines written by L.R. Petzold to solve
stiff or nonstiff ODEs with a root finding option (useful for
finding stop conditions).

But there are unresolved references (see compiler output below).
Where do I find the missing subroutines?

Thank You,
Holger

 == Holger Holthoff ================================ [email] ==
        Institute for Fluid Mechanics, Tech. Univ. Braunschweig
        Bienroder Weg 3, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany
 ====== phone: (49)531-391-2983 = fax: (49)531-391-5952 =======================

odepack
+++++++

Unresolved symbols still remain.
symbol                          referenced in
_d1mach_                        ./libodepack.a(lsodar.o)
_dcopy_                         ./libodepack.a(lsodar.o)
_dgbfa_                         ./libodepack.a(prja.o)
_dgefa_                         ./libodepack.a(prja.o)
_dgbsl_                         ./libodepack.a(solsy.o)
_dgesl_                         ./libodepack.a(solsy.o)

ode
+++

ddasrt.f:
ld: Undefined symbol
   _ddaini_
   _d1mach_
   _ddawts_
   _ddanrm_
   _dcopy_
   _ddastp_
   _ddatrp_

ddassl.f:
ld: Undefined symbol
   _dgefa_
   _d1mach_
   _dgbfa_
   _i1mach_
   _dgesl_
   _dgbsl_


author: Andy Jaworski

subject: Re: Help:  ode and odepack from netlib

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Holthoff) writes:
|>
|> I need help with the libraries 'ode' and 'odepack' from netlib.
|>
|> I try to use some subroutines written by L.R. Petzold to solve
|> stiff or nonstiff ODEs with a root finding option (useful for
|> finding stop conditions).
|>
|> But there are unresolved references (see compiler output below).
|> Where do I find the missing subroutines?
|>
|> Thank You,
|> Holger
|>
|>  == Holger Holthoff ================================ [email] ==
|>         Institute for Fluid Mechanics, Tech. Univ. Braunschweig
|>         Bienroder Weg 3, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany
|>  ====== phone: (49)531-391-2983 = fax: (49)531-391-5952 =======================
|>
|>
|> odepack
|> +++++++
|>
|> Unresolved symbols still remain.
|> symbol                          referenced in
|> _d1mach_                        ./libodepack.a(lsodar.o)
|> _dcopy_                         ./libodepack.a(lsodar.o)
|> _dgbfa_                         ./libodepack.a(prja.o)
|> _dgefa_                         ./libodepack.a(prja.o)
|> _dgbsl_                         ./libodepack.a(solsy.o)
|> _dgesl_                         ./libodepack.a(solsy.o)
|>
|> ode
|> +++
|>
|> ddasrt.f:
|> ld: Undefined symbol
|>    _ddaini_
|>    _d1mach_
|>    _ddawts_
|>    _ddanrm_
|>    _dcopy_
|>    _ddastp_
|>    _ddatrp_
|>
|> ddassl.f:
|> ld: Undefined symbol
|>    _dgefa_
|>    _d1mach_
|>    _dgbfa_
|>    _i1mach_
|>    _dgesl_
|>    _dgbsl_

Most of these routines are either BLAS (Basic Linear Algebra) or Linpack
routines.  Youi can get both from netlib.  i1mach and d12mach set machine
dependent integer and double precision constants.  There are versions of
them in several places.  You can take a look at the PD portion of the port
library, also available from netlib.


author: Bengt Littmann

subject: Re: Help:  ode and odepack from netlib

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (Holthoff) writes:
[email] ==
=======================

You forgot to link LINPACK (e.g. dgefa, dgesl, ...) and BLAS (e.g. dcopy).
There are some routines I cannot identify, though. Like ddaini, ddawts, ...
Checking with your Readme-file might help :-)

Cheers,  Bengt

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bengt W. Littmann             [email]
                                [email]

       -- We experienced some deterioration in the balls. --
french physicist referring to some ball bearings in a TESLA-meeting
                 at DESY, Hamburg, Dec. 15th 1992


author: David Seal

subject: Factoring 128-bit numbers

text:
One particular approach to a problem I've got involves factoring 128-bit
numbers. To decide whether this approach is feasible, I need to know:

  (a) Whether such factorisations are within the range of current technology
      (I believe they are well within it, but am working from vague memories
      of various articles I've seen, so could be mistaken!).

  (b) If so, what the recommended algorithms are. (References to books,
      etc., would also be appreciated.)

  (c) Roughly how much time such a factorisation would take on a good
      workstation.

  (d) Whether source code (preferably public domain and in C) is available
      for the recommended algorithms.

If it's of any help, the numbers involved are of the forms n*(2^64)+1 and
n*(2^64)-1.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

David Seal
I believe the "From" line problem here has been fixed now. In case it isn't,
my correct email address is "[email]".

All opinions are mine only...


author: Robert D. Silverman

subject: Re: Factoring 128-bit numbers

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David Seal) writes:
:One particular approach to a problem I've got involves factoring 128-bit
:numbers. To decide whether this approach is feasible, I need to know:
:
:  (a) Whether such factorisations are within the range of current technology
:      (I believe they are well within it, but am working from vague memories
:      of various articles I've seen, so could be mistaken!).
:
:  (b) If so, what the recommended algorithms are. (References to books,
:      etc., would also be appreciated.)
:
:  (c) Roughly how much time such a factorisation would take on a good

An arbitrary 128-bit number can be factored in under 15 minutes on
a Sparcstation using the Quadratic Sieve. 128 bits is trivial.


author: Joe Keane

subject: Re: Factoring 128-bit numbers

text:
In article <[email]> [email]
(Robert D. Silverman) writes:

Clearly Mr. Silverman is using the stereotypical mathematical definition of
the word `trivial', meaning that it's something that an expert in the field
could figure out in under a day.


author: Bob Greschke

subject: GPS in a mine

text:
Our equipment (seismological) uses GPS for timing.  Someone wants to put a
unit about 400 feet into a mine shaft.  We're limited to about 100' of cable
from the GPS to the recording equipment.  I have no idea if it is a nice,
straight shot, or what, but would a retransmitter work (if it is a straight
shot), or would there be too much signal reflection down a shaft?

Thanks!

Bob


author: mike

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
Bob Greschke wrote:

I'd like to hear more about the application.

A GPS can tell you what time it is where the antenna is.
The time at the end of the cable ain't the same...well, it is,
but it's not what's coming out of the cable.
And the time read is independent of the location in the mine
if the cable length does not change.
And isn't the short-term accuracy of the 1pps time quite variable?
Wouldn't you need a very good local oscillator disciplined to the gps
over a long averaging interval?
And if you're using shock waves to "TDR" the mine, don't those happen
over relatively short time periods?

So, more about the application would be interesting.
Thanks, mike


author: matt weber

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:11:11 -0600, "Bob Greschke" <[email]>
wrote:

presumably the GPS is putting out the time in something along the
lines of a NMEA sentence, in which case it is probably RS232C.
Depending upon speed, some RS232 transmitters can get much further
than 100 feet, and if you really need distance, you can buy EIA to
20ma (current loop) converters. Plan B is a limited distant modem
(actually line drivers, and those are usually good to at least 1000
feet or so).

 A 20ma current loop interface is good for literally MILES! Put one on
each end, and the GPS and the equipment can be miles apart!


author: wee-meng lee

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
Perhaps another way to look at it is to extend the RS232 part of it using a
"RS232 range extender" to send the data down into the equipment deep inside
the mine shaft.

Here's one which I picked off a google search which can extend RS232 signals
to 3000 feet.
http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/CTL2145/index.cfm/mlc_id/2145/SID/14037437/pin_id/1642/ProdID/330167/T3/1362.htm

A wired connection is inherently much more reliable than wireless.

Rgds
weemeng

"Bob Greschke" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
cable
straight


author: Name Withheld

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
Bob Greschke wrote:
Bob, every GPS contains a very accurate quartz clock.  Just
bring the GPS to the surface every 24 hours or so and it will
remain accurate to a few milliseconds.

An amplified external antenna and 400 feet of low loss
coax cable (such as LMR 900) might also work.  LMR 900
loses about 2.3 decibels per 100 feet at 1.6 gigahertz.
http://www.timesmicrowave.com


author: Happy Trails

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:11:11 -0600, "Bob Greschke" <[email]>
wrote:

Why - is this the spec. called for by the gps itself, or has someone
told you that nmea/rs232 is only good for this?

I have used gps outputs at 9600 baud for years on 100 m. or so of
signal cable for the serial outputs, and I have used other equipment
at longer distances with no discernible error at longer runs with no
problems.

When doing this, use multiple shielded twisted pair wiring (individual
shielding & overall shielding), and use a pair each for tx and rx,
with the second wire in each pair grounded, and ground the shield
drain wires all together at one end only, and cross any runs at
approx. 90 degs.only to any other cabling, esp. ac or dc power cables,
do not run parallel to them for any distance at all.  Avoid getting
close to motors or any other source of high current and or high
voltage fluctuation.

Of course, if your gps output is a "pulse per second" for timing, you
may be working with a whole different set of electrical circumstances
than rs232, but should still be able to make it work using a properly
shielded circuit.

Happy Trails To You


subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
The GPSRs are uBlox SIRF or Garmin 18? or 25? units (I forget which Garmin).
They come on for a couple of minutes every 20 minutes.  During this time
(after they lock up) they generate a 1pps signal that the recorder uses to
synchronize its own internal oscillator.  That oscillator is accurate to
about 1ms/day on a bad day.  It is used to control the sampling of the
analog signal from a seismometer, and timestamp the recorded data.  It's all
sort of accurate to the micro-second level.

We can't just extend the line using the usual RS232 extension ways because
there are more signals than just those.  The recorder just uses the NEMA
data to set/check its clock, but then there is the 1pps signal, a couple of
other control lines, and on top of that the recorder supplies the power to
the whole thing.

So the question still stands: Would there be too much signal bounce from a
repeater/re-transmitter down a mine shaft (if it were a pretty straight
shot).  We have a couple re-transmitters in the lab and there are
(surprisingly) some corners of the room where we can't get a lock because of
signal bounce.  We've also had to attenuate the signal quite a bit.

Thanks!

Bob

"mike" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: David Lee

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
Name Withheld wrote ...

Not true.  GPS receiver clocks are not generally very accurate.  For example
my Vista has gained 16 seconds in almost exactly 2.5 days since it last lost
satellite lock - that's nearly 6.5 seconds in 24 hours.

GPS positional determination requires a much higher accuracy of absolute
time than could possibly be maintained by any clock and so accurate (GPS)
time is determined as part of the positional solution.

David


author: Bjorn Gabrielsson

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
"David Lee" <[email]> writes:

A Meinberg GPS I had the chance to test gained 1.8ms in 36 hours. A
cheap surplus Jupiter OEM card lost about 200ms in the same time.

The aquisition phase needs a fairly good reference frequency to aquire
code lock in the correlators. This means most GPS receivers will have
fairly decent crystals.


subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
Bjorn Gabrielsson wrote...

That statement is absolutely meaningless without a definition of "fairly
decent"!  Accuracy only 1second in 24 hours is not "fairly decent" in normal
scientific instrumentation terms but represents a very high accuracy of
within 0.0012%.  The point is that the oscillator need ONLY be accurate
enough for signal aquisition and highly accurate timekeeping is unnecessary
since the required accuracy for a positional fix is greater than you could
possibly achieve without an on-board atomic clock and even then it would
require to be accurately synchronized to GPS time.

Remember a stopped clock will read correctly twice a day but a clock that
keeps perfect time will never display an "absolutely" correct instantaneous
time without a seriously sophisticated calibration procedure.

David


author: Iwo Mergler

subject: Re: GPS in a mine

text:
David Lee wrote:

In a GPS receiver "fairly decent" means stable, but not
necessarily accurate. That is, the clock cycles within
a certain time window must be of similar length. Long
term stability is not that important.

For timekeeping, you need the opposite: good long term
stability is important, but short term isn't.

Kind regards,

Iwo


author: David Longley

subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
In article <[email]>, Eray
Ozkural  exa <[email]> writes

I've already explained why I endorsed Glen's criticism. Why dream up
some other explanation? Each time you make an effort to change your
behaviour, we find you slipping back into your old coke-head ways.
Criticising what someone says is not an ad hominem. It's just criticism
you idiot!

It all depends on what you are criticising! What we have taken issue
with is other people asserting things which are not true!

Idiot!

No you ignorant twit. Go and look at the empirical research work which
is done internationally, and at the applied work I have referred you to.
You are making stupid, ignorant remarks about matters you know nothing
about.

Go and look for the facts and learn something!


author: Eray Ozkural exa

subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
David Longley <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

No, I'm no idiot and yours is no criticism. It's the same old abuse
Glen thrusts against everybody else, and he did the same to Minsky.

And you are doing that by asserting your dogma. Very smart move.

No, I'm not an idiot. Look what I say above. I imply that there is
something distorted about the world view of Quine and Skinner by a
most "hideous" remark about their so-called "philosophy", something
which you adore.

In response, you realize that this goes beyond criticism, ie. it's an
ad hominem attack, although in a civil tone. I'm basically making fun
of your shallow philosophy. And you resort to what? Yelling "Idiot!".
The above exchange illustrates *your* double standard, not Quine's.
When you and your dog launched attacks we didn't yell "Idiot!", we
just mentioned that it is not valid argumentation and kept polite. You
didn't, because you think you have the right to maintain a double
standard.

No, you don't.

It's debatable who is ignorant and making stupid, ignorant remarks
about matters he knows nothing about. Like you and artificial
intelligence perhaps?

I won't answer to you because you have not learnt to be polite. I deny
you from engaging in further exchanges with me. You are nothing but
noise from now on.

Please refrain from corresponding with me. I do not wish to talk to
you until you come with an adequate apology to me.


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
"David Longley" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Please read the applied work done internationally in cognitive
neurosciences - like Gazzaniga's work you ignornat twit.

Much more than supports your thesis which I disproved here weeks ago.

You
represent.
in
this if
your


author: Glen M. Sizemore

subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
More proof that Eray stands as a moral beacon to us all:

EO: Fuck off, David Longley and Glen Sizemore.

I don't say this as only an insult that you deserve. You deserve
insults and torment till the end of your unnecessary lives. I say this
with good intentions as a scholar who has a hint about AI and wants to
do you a favor. Don't make a fool of your worthless selves any more.
Get the hell out of here, you hopeless fucked up morons.

"Eray Ozkural exa" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
"Glen M. Sizemore" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Thank you. I learnt the above style of ad hominem attack from David
Longley and the excessive use of swear words from you. But to be
honest, I do think you two are fucked up morons and that this planet
would be better off without you. And I do pity you, why do you waste
your time here, don't you have better things to do in your life? It's
understandable that AI enthusiasts and people genuinely interested in
philosophy of mind would come here to discuss, but you? You are
neither!

For a start, this newsgroup would be so much better off without you
two, and other trolls such as Moniahnr and Psicock (Bloxy's
personas?).

Can somebody tell me how I can report these trolls to their ISPs as
USENET abusers? Does posting on news.admin have any effect?


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
GS: I think that it is quite clear who is abusive here. Eray Ozkural is by
far, the most abusive, arrogant, simpleton I have encountered on USENET. His
girlfriend, Dan Michaels, would have you believe otherwise, but here's the
proof.

Eray Ozkural: You and your retarded pet Glen are the only ignorant and
deluded
idiots on this group except for the trolls (namely Bloxy's, Moniahnr,
Psicock, whatever).

You are an idiot even if you don't realize that you are one.

You have no authority on the subject, and you cannot assert anything.
You can only try to assert things but you keep on living in a world of
fantasy in which Quine is God and Skinner is a prophet. Because of
your foolish and ignorant ravings, many people on this group,
including me, have started looking at the philosophy of Quine with
disgust. I assume that was *not* your goal. In fact, you don't seem to
have any rationality, so it's not even right to assume you can have
any goals. You are a hallucinating maniac and a sociopath with no
scientific credibility, morals, or personality in general. I despise
you and your lowly kind.

Down with your behaviorist religion. I have had enough!

Fuck off and die, Longley-bot!

Eray Ozkural: I do think you two are fucked up morons and that this planet
would be better off without you.

And

Eray Ozkural: I don't say this as only an insult that you deserve. You
deserve
insults and torment till the end of your unnecessary lives. I say this
with good intentions as a scholar who has a hint about AI and wants to
do you a favor. Don't make a fool of your worthless selves any more.
Get the hell out of here, you hopeless fucked up morons.

"Eray Ozkural exa" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
"Glen M. Sizemore" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Ah, no you are confused. I am not a simpleton, and I am not generally
abusive or arrogant. My attack was specifically targeted for your
lowly kind, you behaviorist infestation. You are the USENET fuckwit
#1, up there in the crackpots list together with David Longley and
following you two Arthur T. Murray. And besides, you are the single
most abusive person on USENET, not me.

You are insanely confused. You don't even realize that you deserve
such response! As I said, you deserve insults and torments till the
end of your unnecessary life. You are nothing. Showing that I insulted
you does no harm to me, you are only an ignorant, foolish troll who
does nothing but disrupt the course of discussion on this group. You
have single-handedly cut down the signal-to-noise ratio to a quarter,
you fucking bastard.

Why do you complain when your own style of argumentation is used
against you? Do you think you will get away with insulting everybody
on this newsgroup? Do you think I am going to tolerate you forever?

Fucking moron!


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
GS: I think that it is quite clear who is abusive here. Eray Ozkural is by
far, the most abusive, arrogant, simpleton I have encountered on USENET. His
girlfriend, Dan Michaels, would have you believe otherwise, but below is the
proof. (I especially like the "Do you think I am going to tolerate you
forever?" That's not a threat on my person, is it Mr. Ozkural?)

Eray Ozkural: You are the USENET fuckwit
#1, up there in the crackpots list together with David Longley and
following you two Arthur T. Murray. And besides, you are the single
most abusive person on USENET, not me.

You are insanely confused. You don't even realize that you deserve
such response! As I said, you deserve insults and torments till the
end of your unnecessary life. You are nothing. Showing that I insulted
you does no harm to me, you are only an ignorant, foolish troll who
does nothing but disrupt the course of discussion on this group. You
have single-handedly cut down the signal-to-noise ratio to a quarter,
you fucking bastard.

Why do you complain when your own style of argumentation is used
against you? Do you think you will get away with insulting everybody
on this newsgroup? Do you think I am going to tolerate you forever?

Fucking moron!

Eray Ozkural: You and your retarded pet Glen are the only ignorant and
deluded
idiots on this group except for the trolls (namely Bloxy's, Moniahnr,
Psicock, whatever).

You are an idiot even if you don't realize that you are one.

You have no authority on the subject, and you cannot assert anything.
You can only try to assert things but you keep on living in a world of
fantasy in which Quine is God and Skinner is a prophet. Because of
your foolish and ignorant ravings, many people on this group,
including me, have started looking at the philosophy of Quine with
disgust. I assume that was *not* your goal. In fact, you don't seem to
have any rationality, so it's not even right to assume you can have
any goals. You are a hallucinating maniac and a sociopath with no
scientific credibility, morals, or personality in general. I despise
you and your lowly kind.

Down with your behaviorist religion. I have had enough!

Fuck off and die, Longley-bot!

Eray Ozkural: I do think you two are fucked up morons and that this planet
would be better off without you.

And

Eray Ozkural: I don't say this as only an insult that you deserve. You
deserve
insults and torment till the end of your unnecessary lives. I say this
with good intentions as a scholar who has a hint about AI and wants to
do you a favor. Don't make a fool of your worthless selves any more.
Get the hell out of here, you hopeless fucked up morons.

"Eray Ozkural exa" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
by
His
the


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
"Glen M. Sizemore" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

It's not a threat on your person.

You don't like it when people behave to you the way you behave to them, do you?


subject: Re: Engineering of Mind - Albus

text:
Actually, I don't care that much. What I object to is the hypocrisy of jerks
like you and Michaels who whine like little girls about the
"abuse"....except when it comes to times when YOU feel justified to "abuse."

"Eray Ozkural exa" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
by
His
the
you?


author: Daniel Kobler

subject: air flow measuring

text:
Iï¿½m looking for a measuring technique which allows measuring of
inspiratory and exspiratory air volume wihout mask. I would
like to apply this technique to ovserve sleeping persons
with minimal sleep distortion.

Thanks for each hot tip!!

Student Biomedizinische Technik
Neu-Technikum Buchs


author: Thomas Ward

subject: Re: air flow measuring

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Daniel Kobler) writes:
|> Iï¿½m looking for a measuring technique which allows measuring of
|> inspiratory and exspiratory air volume wihout mask. I would
|> like to apply this technique to ovserve sleeping persons
|> with minimal sleep distortion.
|>
|> Thanks for each hot tip!!
|>
|> Student Biomedizinische Technik
|> Neu-Technikum Buchs
|>

One of the common techniques (other than a mask with flow-meter) uses
a strain gauge around the chest (Mercury in Rubber?) to indicate chest movement
which is roughly proportional to airflow.  Usually they are made very flexible to
ensure that they don't disturb the patient.
Another way is to wire up a thin tube from near one nostril to a more
sensitive flow meter - Too bad if you've got a blocked nose!

Tom Ward


author: Robert E Day

subject: Re: air flow measuring

text:
Thomas Ward ([email]) wrote:

: ONE of the common techniques (other than a mask with flow-meter) uses
: a strain gauge around the chest (Mercury in Rubber?) to indicate chest movement
: which is roughly proportional to airflow.  Usually they are made very flexible to
: ensure that they don't disturb the patient.
: Another way is to wire up a thin tube from near one nostril to a more
: sensitive flow meter - Too bad if you've got a blocked nose!

A slight variation on this theme is to use a device from the University
of Melbourne called a "Rubbery Ruler".  This is a very flexible device
that looks loke a solid Silastic tube.  It is a variable capacitance
device that responds very accuately to changes in length.  I recently
helped a local anaesthetist to validate one for measuring airflow in
patients.  They are comapring it to the normal spirometers, and getting
good results.  I can't recall the contact off hand, but if you are
interested, email me and I'll look it out for you.

Robert Day			email  [email]
Project Bioengineer		smail  X2213 GPO Perth WA 6001
Royal Perth Hospital            phone  +61 9 224 3227


author: Fred McGalliard

subject: Re: Solar-hydrogen home power system?

text:
I do recall reading around 6 bottom posts in a row where not one of the
posters had removed one line of even the appended adds and intro crap some
systems append. A 5 page post with one new line at the very very very
bottom.
If top posters grow hair, what do bottom posters grow? Perhaps mold?

"Don Lancaster" <[email]> wrote in message
 ...


author: Gymmy Bob

subject: Re: Solar-hydrogen home power system?

text:
Experienced posters usually grow out of that childish bottom posting notion
after a few years.

"Fred McGalliard" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: Philip Deitiker

text:
"
The Limitations of Paleomagnetic and Archaeomagnetic Dating

Using this technique, a core or sample can be directly dated.
There are a number of limitations, however.

First, it is necessary to know the approximate age of the
sample to avoid miscorrelations. The K-Ar method has been used
to place the sample in an approximate age range. However,
sometimes the error associated with K-Ar date is greater than
the time span being studied using Paleomagnetic or
Archaeomagmetic Dating techniques.

Second, when studying depositional remanent magnetization, in
the case of lake and ocean sediments, disturbance of the
sediments by currents, slumping of sediments, or burrowing
animals is a problem. Any of these disturbances can churn up
sediments and change the orientation of the iron particles in
the sediments, or remove parts of the sedimentary record
altogether. Therefore, paleomagnetism studies of sediments
should be used as an average record of long term changes in
the Earth's magnetic field to reduce error in the
interpretation of the record.

Third, the microscopic iron particles in some sediments
undergo chemical changes after they have settled through the
water into strata. These chemical changes cause the iron
particles to realign themselves with the Earth's magnetic
field at the time of the chemical change. This is called
chemical remanent magnetization. The identification of the
particular iron minerals that are susceptible to this change
can be an early warning that errors can be expected.

Fourth, paleomagnetic dating can only date deposits that are
hundreds of thousands to millions of years old. This is useful
when studying early fossil hominids, but is not useful when
studying modern human beings.

Finally, the skill of the archaeologist collecting the sample,
and the number of the samples used to calibrate the
archaeomagnetic master curve affect the precision with which
archaeologists can determine a date for a feature.
"

OK, so who is sounding like Eric?


author: Eric Stevens

subject: Re: Limitations of Paleomagnetic and Archaeomagnetic Dating

text:
On 20 Aug 2004 17:36:07 GMT, Philip Deitiker <[email]>
wrote:

That lot certainly doesn't sound like me. For a start I, I haven't
been writing about paleomagnetic dating.

Eric Stevens


text:
In sci.archaeology,          Philip Deitiker created a message
ID news:Xns954B8032037B2prd@128.249.2.19:

"

I forgot the following, sorry.
http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/Anth3/Courseware/Chronology/11
_Paleomag_Archaeomag.html