subject: Re: Welding 4140 to mild steel

text:
On May 18, 7:47 am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

I  agree with Lloyd but for somewhat different reasons.  I think you
will get some distortion in the ram anyway and  having a close fit
will make it hard to take your weldment offi  So I would put some set
screws in the tube.  I would only put in two set screws spaced about
60 degrees apart.  And drill a slight bit into the ram where the set
screws contact the ram so the set screws will not distort the ram and
make it hard to remove.  When you put it together put some wax in the
hole so the ram and tube will not rust. And make sure the ram is not a
close fit in the tube.

It would be better if the plate was 4140 and the tube was mild steel.
The force will almost all  on the plate.

Dan


author: Steve W.

subject: Re: Welding 4140 to mild steel

text:
Ignoramus12664 wrote:

One thing I just thought of, Are the faces of both sides of the plate
parallel? You don't want the face to be angled in any direction while
your using the press. Not a good thing for precise work.

--
Steve W.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Welding 4140 to mild steel

text:
Cool. :)

Prob'ly 100% right too! :)

Spark test it and you'll know-more. ;)

I was given some hot rolled steel that's new-old-stock VascoWear.
(type 421 tool steel, type 420 = A2)

Bought some hot rolled steel that was D2 Tool steel.

Igno, I  know you from the blacksmithing newsgroup, please learn
how to spark test?

Please? ;)

All you need are a few known samples.

Alvin in AZ


subject: Re: Call the Bayonne YMCA and complain about Andrew

text: On 18 Jan 2001 04:42:05 GMT, [email] (DeepSand562) wrote:


author: Moses

text:
Excellent, thanks for posting that....

<[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
| On 18 Jan 2001 04:42:05 GMT, [email] (DeepSand562) wrote:
|
| >I found out tonight that a lot of people have been calling the Bayonne
YMCA and
| >complaining about our friend Andrew AKA "Flight of the Phoenix." I also
found
| >out that the Bayonne YMCA  people  are pretty fed up with these
complaints and
| >Andrew is currently "borderline" as far as being allowed to stay there.
| >
| >So my message to you is call the Bayonne YMCA and complain. Tell them you
are
| >fed up with Andrew's crap and constant spamming of all these mental
health
| >Usenet support groups. The phone number for the Bayonne YMCA is
(201)339-2330.
| >Tell them Andrew is sick and needs help. Tell them Andrew harasses a lot
of
| >people online and has ruined multiple mental health online support
groups.
| >
| >Above all, remind them that what Andrew is doing is against the YMCA
charter.
| >If the Y goes by the book, I can guarantee Andrew should have been canned
by
| >now.
| >
| >If you have not called the YMCA yet and complained about Andrew...it is
time
| >for you to call and complain.
| >
| >Eric
|


author: LostBoyinNC

text:
--

You never told us who you are. If you are going to come on here out of
the blue like the lone ranger or something acting like an online super
hero, you at least owe us an explanation of who you are. Real Email
address? First name? Location? Who are you?

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


author: Crimson Ghost

text:
Where do you live?  Who are you?  Why don't *you* fuck off?
Who the fuck *are* you anyway?  Some dude that lives
on this fucking newsgroup because without the conflict
you have with Andrew and Fred YOU WOULDN'T HAVE
A LIFE.

"LostBoyinNC" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9477cj$dqu$[email]...


text:
In article <9477cj$dqu$[email]>,
  LostBoyinNC <[email]> wrote:

Why?

You're starting to sound like the troll.


text:
In article <3a6dad9d$[email]>,
  "Crimson Ghost" <[email]> wrote:

-- Change your tone to me asshole. You are damn straight I dont have a
life. I have treatment resistant major depression.

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


text:
MEOW!

^_^

<[email]> wrote in message
news:947gin$n0h$[email]...
| In article <9477cj$dqu$[email]>,
|   LostBoyinNC <[email]> wrote:
| > --
| >
| > You never told us who you are. If you are going to come on here out of
| > the blue like the lone ranger or something acting like an online super
| > hero, you at least owe us an explanation of who you are. Real Email
| > address? First name? Location? Who are you?
| >
|
|
| Why?
|
|
| You're starting to sound like the troll.
|
| --
| Light, Love, & Laughter,
| Kitten, Goddess of Mischief
|
| "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never
| forgotten this." - Anonymous
| "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your
| living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude
| for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui
|
|
| Sent via Deja.com
| http://www.deja.com/


text:
In article <947gin$n0h$[email]>,
  [email] wrote:
of
super


text:
It sounds like you are proud of this.... And that it gives you an excuse to
behave as you like, Eric. Am I reading that correctly?

| -- Change your tone to me asshole. You are damn straight I dont have a
| life. I have treatment resistant major depression.
|
| Eric
|
| New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
| http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression
|
| Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively
|
|
|
| Sent via Deja.com
| http://www.deja.com/


text:
In article <zzI96.885$Y2.16518@news>,
  "Moses" <[email]> wrote:

gotta love techies


text:
In article <947lgf$rp3$[email]>,
  LostBoyinNC <[email]> wrote:
out
Email
FBI.

Why don't you like him?  Because you don't like the truths that he is
telling you?

Look, Eric, if you looked in the right place, you'd be able to figure
out the company name on his paychecks.  Heck, if you looked hard enough,
you'd be able to figure out the company name on *my* paychecks.  Suffice
it to say, I know enough to know he's telling the truth.

I've been working online for a while now.  Granted, I've not been online
nearly as long as my husband and probably not as long as Moses.  But
I've been around long enough, doing the right kind of work, to know that
what he's telling you is absolutely true.

You don't like it that Moses is telling you that trolls and spammers get
TOS'd.  Well, they do.  Like it or not, everyone is eventually
responsible for their own actions.

Sometimes it takes longer, especially if they're using a posting service
that allows munging.  But even with that, they can still be traced by
those who know what to look for.

So, yes, whether you like it or not, you *are* responsible for what you
post to Usenet.  If you don't like that idea, well, don't know what to
tell you.  Maybe you shouldn't post to Usenet.


text:
In article <eTjb6.1164$Y2.20550@news>,
  "Moses" <[email]> wrote:
excuse to
-- Look man, dont start any shit with me. Dont follow me around like
this...really gets on my nerves.

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


text:
In article <eTjb6.1164$Y2.20550@news>,
  "Moses" <[email]> wrote:
excuse to

-- Are you ever going to post a real Email? I shouldnt have to "figure
out" your Email from the above thing you post as a so called Email. I
like things straightforward Moses...Im not a computer
nerd/hacker/techie geek like you claim to be.

BTW...Im not "proud" of having treatment resistant major depression.
But I do have it and  it does make you so it is impossible to have a
life. Makes it hard to handle jobs, impossible to get into or remain in
relationships...you are damn straight it makes you so you dont have a
life. You cant have a life in this kind of condition. Its like trying
to have a life with any other serious medical condition that is not
treated properly. I am medication resistant Moses, been on just about
all the psych meds at maximum doses. The best I can get to is about
50%. The only thing left for me to try is ECT, which I am considering.

I wasnt bragging about it I was just stating the facts. Hope that you
never get into the condition I am in.

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


author: R. Williams

text:
What is the point of getting rid of FLoP if you guys are going to
continue to invade the newsgroups who wanted it stopped?
R

Robin

Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's ALL small stuff!


text:
My point then was/is:

If you can dedicate this much time and effort to newsgroups, you are capable
of dedicating it elsewhere. Like a job, a relationship, a life.

Following and posting about many different threads requires a little
attention. Take that a step further. Put that attention elsewhere.

"LostBoyinNC" <[email]> wrote in message
news:94kspv$it3$[email]...
| In article <eTjb6.1164$Y2.20550@news>,
|   "Moses" <[email]> wrote:
| >
| > It sounds like you are proud of this.... And that it gives you an
| excuse to
| > behave as you like, Eric. Am I reading that correctly?
| >
|
| -- Are you ever going to post a real Email? I shouldnt have to "figure
| out" your Email from the above thing you post as a so called Email. I
| like things straightforward Moses...Im not a computer
| nerd/hacker/techie geek like you claim to be.
|
| BTW...Im not "proud" of having treatment resistant major depression.
| But I do have it and  it does make you so it is impossible to have a
| life. Makes it hard to handle jobs, impossible to get into or remain in
| relationships...you are damn straight it makes you so you dont have a
| life. You cant have a life in this kind of condition. Its like trying
| to have a life with any other serious medical condition that is not
| treated properly. I am medication resistant Moses, been on just about
| all the psych meds at maximum doses. The best I can get to is about
| 50%. The only thing left for me to try is ECT, which I am considering.
|
| I wasnt bragging about it I was just stating the facts. Hope that you
| never get into the condition I am in.
|
| Eric
|
| New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
| http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression
|
| Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively
|
|
|
| Sent via Deja.com
| http://www.deja.com/


text:
In article <94811n$6oe$[email]>,
  LostBoyinNC <[email]> wrote:
is
figure
by
to

And where was Moses talking about getting *you* knocked offline.  He was
referring to Andrew, silly.

Actually, no he doesn't come across as anti-free speech.  He comes
across as "each person is responsible for what they post".  *Big*
difference.

Looks to me like *you* are the one trying to exert control here.  You
don't like what Moses is saying, so you're trying to make him leave.
All he's doing is telling you what the facts are concerning how ISPs
have to handle their TOS issues.

He hasn't been.  You've been the only one I've seen trying to be tough.

name.

Why?

Well, DUH!!

The email address listed on his posts is [email]  ===>  reply to
group.  Hellooooooo!!!

Nope.  Well, I take that back.  There's a German ISP that you can sign
up with online that require that you use your real name and email addy.
 Thought about using it as a backup, but figured they'd nix goddess as
first name and kitten as last name.

Nope.  It's up to the posting service through which one is posting.
They can trace your posts anyhow, so it doesn't really matter.  Even
Andrew's posts can be traced, even though he's using Altopia.  Ya just
have to know a little more in order to trace the trolls and spammers who
post there.

Nope.  You're wrong there.  He's telling you facts, and you don't like
them, so you're resorting to calling him names and to trying to bully
him around.  It's not working, so you've decided to throw a temper
tantrum.

Grow up.


text:
I'm sorry, but isn't that what you are doing?  Why do you feel the
need to crosspost it to all of us?  Delete ASAP...NO ONE from our ng
is even involved in this crap and it is literally the most annoying
possible thing you can do to continue the thread like this
R

Robin

Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's ALL small stuff!


text:
In article <dhnb6.1171$Y2.20380@news>,
  "Moses" <[email]> wrote:
capable

-- It doesnt take any effort to piddle around a NG like I do. To have a
relationship you have to have a sex drive. I dont have one. I can
barely even get it up anymore. You dont have a clue what you are
talking about.

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


text:
In article <[email]>,
  [email] (R. Williams) wrote:
-- Oh I am sorry that my post crossposted into the psychotherapy NG. I
dont know how that happened, really. I started this post in asdm, how
did the psychotherapy people get involved in it?

How do you prevent crossposting from occuring? Im ignorant on the
subject and would like to stay out of psychotherapy NG...and for them
to stay out of asdm as they both represent total opposite opinions on
how to handle mental illness.

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


author: Mark Morin

text:
"LostBoyinNC" <[email]> wrote in message
news:94kvve$lv4$[email]...

I suspect most relationships in life don't require an erection.


text:
When you reply, just make sure that you only have ONE ng in the
header...I am not from the psychotherapy ng, but anxiety-panic and you
are in about 4 at once right now
R

Robin

Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's ALL small stuff!


text:
In article <[email]>,
  [email] (R. Williams) wrote:

-- I understand...but how come this post is showing up in
alt.support.depression.medication yet it doesnt show in my forum
headers?

Eric

New depression support group "Facts and Fallacies of depression"
http://www.egroups.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


text:
Hmmmmm, I don't know...it shows it to be going to these:
sci.psychology.psychotherapy,alt.support.anxiety-panic,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.manic
That would be all of them in my header...but can you do me a favor :)
Please remove asap in it now....we're being flooded and it is really
getting hard to support around when we thought getting FLoP off the
crossposts would work...now we are still getting these threads over
again.
Thanks
Robin

Robin

Don't sweat the small stuff...and it's ALL small stuff!


author: Alan \"Uncle Al\" Schwartz

subject: Re: Low alcoholic wine/beer

text:
[email] wrote:

Go to your local liquor emporium, see who makes the stuff, ask THEM.
Seems kinda obvious to me.


author: Jon Noring

subject: Manufacturing options for the very-precise Gilson Atlas circular slide rule? (For the nostalgia-inclined)

text:
Everyone,

I would like feedback regarding design and manufacturing options (in
low quantities, and also in a "one-off") for a modernized reproduction
of what is considered by many slide rule collectors (remember slide
rules? <smile/>) to be the most precise and aesthetically-pleasing
slide rule ever made: The "Gilson Atlas".

What makes the Gilson Atlas unique is its aesthetic simplicity yet
relatively high-precision in a small package. For multiplication and
division it yields 4-5 digits of precision (100-200 ppm), unlike
common slide rules which give about 3-4 digits (>1000 ppm). It also
keeps the digit precision more constant across the entire range of the
scale, which is the bane of ordinary slide rules.

Unlike ordinary slide rules, however, it is not linear -- it is what
is called a circular rule (strictly, the term "slide" should not be
used in describing it.) The scale itself is helical-coiled, having
either 25 or 30 spirals. Thus, even though the diameter of the Gilson
Atlas is a little over 8", it packs a scale over 40 feet long, which
is how it achieves its precision.

There are two nice online images of the Gilson Atlas. The first is the
earliest Type I (with 30 spirals), while the second one (a very nice
image) is the Type III (with 25 spirals) which was manufactured
through the 1960's and maybe into the early 70's. The Type III was
used by many professionals and students who wanted the higher
precision it gave over an ordinary slide rule:

   http://sliderules.lovett.com/gilsonsquare/frontnew.jpg (Type I)

http://www.konshak.com/Sliderules/Archive/Gilson_Atlas_Type3_WhiteCollection.jpg
(Type III)

The Gilson Atlases were made from 1/16" coated aluminum. Note that the
only moving parts are the two clear cursors (the backside used one
cursor but I am focusing here on the high-precision side with the
spiral scale.) There are no sliding scales as ordinary slide rules
have. This adds to the aesthetic simplicity of the Gilson Atlas. For
an overview of how the Gilson Atlas works, the original manual (for
the 30-spiral Type I) is online at:

   http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/gilson/gilson-manual2.jpg
   http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/gilson/gilson-manual3.jpg

(The instructions are insufficiently terse, unfortunately.)

Wayne Harrison has produced a Postscript file of the scale layout for
the Gilson Atlas Type III (25 spiral), which can be downloaded (along
with an explanatory text file) from:

   http://www.openreader.org/gilsonatlas/GilsonAtlas3.zip

(The Postscript file probably would not be used for manufacturing
purposes, but illustrates how it looks and even works for those
inclined to build a "paper" demo. I produced a PDF from Wayne's
Postscript, included in the zip file, for easier printing.)

*****

So what are the various design options in a modern replica of the
Gilson Atlas? Here are my initial thoughts...

With regard to substrate materials we could consider:

1) Metal: aluminum alloy, titanium, stainless steel, etc. (anything
   which is corrosion/oxidation resistant). I think it should be a
   little thicker than the original 1/16" for added stiffness and
   "solid feel".

2) Plastic: Obviously high quality is desired, having the ivory-like
   look and feel of the classic slide rules of old, such as Dietzgen,
   Keufel & Esser, etc. The plastic needs to be very stable (long-
   lasting and environmentally-resistant), scratch-resistant, able to
   resolve fine details of inscribed scales, and with the nice surface
   finish just mentioned.

3) (anything else ???)

Then there's the issue of surface coatings (if any -- coatings can be
painted/layered on, or in the case of metal could be electroplated,
anodized, nitrided, etc.). And of course how the spiral and marks are
placed on the surface with high precision and fineness (e.g., etched,
scratched, painted/inked, etc., etc., etc.)

And lastly there's the issue of designing the rotating cursors.

I can't help but think that since the early 1970's (when slide rules
were last king), new manufacturing materials and methods could be used
to improve the quality and lower the manufacturing cost (including for
small runs) for all types of slide rules. But then, maybe I'm wrong
here.

Of course, there's no demand for slide rules for practical use, but
there's certainly nostalgic interest (witness the large slide rule and
vintage scientific instrument collecting communities), so I believe
there is a small market there, maybe a few hundred to a thousand.

Your feedback is much appreciated. Let me know if you are interested
in being involved with a project to design and build a circular rule
similar to the Gilson Atlas.

Thanks!

Jon Noring

(p.s., it is intriguing to consider building a much larger Gilson
Atlas, say for a science/technology museum, which can have an even
more precise and longer scale. For example, one could etch the spiral
and marker lines into a mirror polished stainless steel plate, say
3 to 6 feet diameter. The problem here is making the cursors stiff
enough so they don't bend/bow sideways due to their own weight. And
maybe there's a clever way to reduce the number of cursors to one and
have an alternate method to register intermediate results.)


author: Anthony Garcia

subject: Re: Manufacturing options for the very-precise Gilson Atlas circular slide rule? (For the nostalgia-inclined)

text:
"Jon Noring" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

[snippage]

You can use metal substrate materials however I don't think they give you
much you can't get with good old plastic at fairly minimal charge ... More
on that later in this post ...

[this is later in the post]
If you will find yourself a good graphics shop that makes printed plastic
sheet for backlit signage you will basically have your problems largely
solved.  I have some good experience with polycarbonate.  Many
fabricators/graphics shops can screen your graphic onto a 4' x 8' sheet of
polycarbonate, cut your holes apply a film on one or both surfaces and then
cut the plastic into it's finished shape to ~.005" or less reliably.  The
most variable part will be that your holes will probably not be completely
cylindrical ... I would caution you however that few processes do produce
completely cylindrical holes.

For your film I would recommend an anti-glare film that would both protect
your polycarbonate from UV and chemicals (again see your supplier) and
protect your graphics from abrasion.  The cursors could be made of the
same/similar  material.   btw ... polycarbonate is not the only material you
can uses ... acrylic and polyethylene will probably meet your needs as well.

The advantages of the process I am advocating are as follows:
1 - The requirements on you are pretty minimal as long as you find a
competent shop and there are plenty.
2 - Many shops that produce back-lit signs or at least the graphics for
back-lit signs will have a CNC router or can get access to a laser cutter
(leaves a slight yellowing at the edge of the cut on Lexan but I don't find
it objectionable).  This is good because CNC milling will cost you a whole
lot more and you will not likely get better results.
3 - There is a wealth of experience in this type of work.  I haven't been
involved in signage lately but I can tell you that if you go to any
department store and find out where they get their signs made you will get
useful feedback.  I would recommend a local (to me) fabricator except the
ones I know have gone out of business.
4 - Entry level pricing is pretty low.  You can expect up to ~$2,000 or so
for artwork charges and die work depending on colors and the amount of work
they have to do.  If you provide a DXF file you can probably cut that down
to considerably less as in more like $400-500.

  If you will be satisfied with general graphics and the precision that can
be had you can go to many local graphics/print/sign shops and they will get
you what you need.  Be explicit on your precision requirements.

  If you still aren't satisfied with the precision I can probably put you in
touch with one or two precision plastics suppliers that can do the work you
need but I have confidence that with a little work you can probably develop
your own locally.


author: John Eric Voltin

text:
Hello Jon,

I read about your project with interest.  I'm not particularly familiar with
slide rules and the Gilson Atlas since they were really before my time.
Nonetheless, the project seems quite interesting.

I would suggest spending some time looking at the economic feasibility of
manufacturing the Gilson Atlas.  You have clearly thought about the number
of potential buyers, but do you know what they would be willing to spend
buying this product?

Molding this product would allow you to produce each copy relatively cheaply
(maybe $2 to $5), but the initial tooling cost will be quite high (maybe
$20K to $30K).  Machining them may be a good alternative because you avoid
the tooling charge and the result will be very nice (no parting lines,
etc.), but the cost for each piece will be much higher.  Its hard to
estimate the cost of machining without knowing the material, quantity, and
design of the moving arms.  There are also lots of different qualtity levels
when it comes to machining.  I'm assuming very good maching would be
required to maintain the proper tolerances and cosmetic requirements.

I would be happy to discuss this project further and offer my assistance in
exploring the options, etc.


author: Dr. Sam

text:
Jon,

Slide rules are not before my time, but I never used one of this type.
Even so, your project is quite interesting, and I might be able to help
as well.

I think for the small volume production that you will have, you will be
looking at machining each unit, rather than the larger volume methods
such as molding. I think that what you will want to do is essentially
to "print" the spiral scale on the surface of the plate, rather than to
try to scribe it in any form. This requires that the image be developed
in detail one time, but then it can be produced as many times as
required. I'm pretty sure this was how it was done with the original
rule.

If you use a printed image for the scale, there is a potential for
error if the arms are not correctly centered with respect to the
spiral. This is a kinematic problem, one that I can address if needs
be. If you decide to go forward with this project, please let me know
how you are going to do this, and let me know if I can be of help.

Jon Noring wrote:
reproduction
the
the
http://www.konshak.com/Sliderules/Archive/Gilson_Atlas_Type3_WhiteCollection.jpg
the
surface
used
for
and


subject: Laser Engraving? (was Manufacturing options for the very-precise Gilson Atlas circular slide rule?)

text:
I've been investigating laser engraving as a means to place the scales
on the Atlas circular slide rule replica.

As I peruse the various online information sources on laser engraving
(just do a Google search), it appears this may be a viable option.
Many places do this commercially -- just give them a CAD file and the
parts to inscribe, and away they burn. Many will do custom jobs of
even one part.

I'm not sure of the cost of such laser engraving services, but I don't
see it particularly expensive considering the type of jobs they
advertise doing in small runs. Many claim being able to put down
lettering as small as 0.01" in size, so it appears they can do the
fineness required (I assume the XY precision will also be sufficient).

(Who knows, maybe a company with idle engraver machine time will
donate engraving service as a way of advertising their company. We'll
let them burn their logo and name somewhere on the dial or edge.)

The only issues with this option are with regards to substrate
materials (one can engrave just about anything, though), whether the
materials are coated (maybe with various background surface colors)
and how to "color" the engraved lines and lettering (it appears there
are various techniques depending upon substrate material, coating (if
any), etc.) Maybe the engraved areas can be "inked" by some clever
inexpensive process?

(It would not surprise me if the cost of laser engraving is strongly
proportional to the extent of engraving needed to be done, and clearly
with the Atlas replica there will be a need for a *lot* of intricate
engraving which probably will take a lot of time -- we are talking
about engraving a 40 foot long spiral, with ten thousand tick marks
and lots of lettering along the way. Fortunately the needed depth is
quite small, so that probably lowers the burn time, especially when
using the right substrate.)

Anyone here an expert on laser engraving care to respond? Is this a
viable option, or something to cross off our manufacturing options
list?

Thanks.

Jon Noring


author: Wayne Lundberg

text:
"Jon Noring" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Consider screen printing a negative then chem milling the lines, the
swabbing the ink into the chem milled slots. This is not as far fetched as
you may think. Look at how they make microprocessors with chem milled lines
only microns wide and deep. Once you have the basic shape sliding nicely,
then do the printing. You can't do it any cheaper nor better any other way
that I know of except possibly laser marking.

Wayne
www.rcsailcars.com


text:
"Dr. Sam" wrote:

Thanks for your interest! If you know of others who might be
interested in this project, tell them about it. John Eric Voltin has
graciously offered his help with the 3-D graphics aspects, to
develop virtual prototypes and interface with machine shops.

I can't help but believe that with particular substrate materials
there can be a cost-effective way in low runs to inscribe/emboss/etch/
whatever the scale markers into the substrate with high precision. But
then maybe I'm out to lunch on this.

In terms of the aesthetics, using engraved (and inked where it makes
sense) scale markers is visually and tactilly more appealing than
printed-on markers -- it speaks of quality. However, printing can look
appealing *if* the surface (whether coated or bare) is very smooth and
visually non-obtrusive, and the printing is extremely sharp even under
significant magnification, and has excellent contrast -- any fuzziness
or loss of contrast in different lighting, and it looks cheesy and
cheap (engraved/inked markers keep their contrast much better than
painted on markers.)

But "printing" the scales is certainly a possibility. At the end of
the slide rule era in the 1970's, Pickett (which used aluminum as a
substrate) printed the scales using some sort of photographic process,
the details of which I'm now trying to obtain from those who research
slide rule history. As noted above, Pickett executed this very well
because the printing was very sharp and precise, and the background
color coating did not interfere with readability. My slide rule of
choice at the time was Pickett, which I still have (the surface is
painted in an easy-on-the-eyes yellow, with black scales.)

The downside to printing, of course, is durability -- printing is
more easily rubbed off by use and by cleaning. Inscribed marks better
protect whatever is used to color the mark (if any), so they cannot be
rubbed off even with heavy-duty use.

I'd judiciously use color to differentiate some of the scales, as
well as the background surface color (if one is applied.) For example,
the outermost scale (used to determine the 3-digit answer to the
operation before moving to the spiral for the 5 digit answer) should
be colored differently from the spiral area (either the background
color and/or the scale color.)

(The Atlas 3 used two colors for the background to differentiate the
ranges in the spiral, important for usability:

http://www.konshak.com/Sliderules/Archive/Gilson_Atlas_Type3_WhiteCollection.jpg
)

Overuse of color is certainly not good. An aesthetic balance is
necessary. Fortunately, with today's realistic 3-D rendering, which
can emulate the optical properties of the background surface, we can
generate a virtually unlimited number of prototype variations and
come up with a coloring scheme which many agree is aesthetically
pleasing, functional in various lighting conditions, and which is not
expensive or difficult to execute.

This indicates to me, provided the printing is sufficiently precise in
two dimensions, to drill the center pivot hole after the printing is
done. The printing can include the precision guides at the center hole
area -- now it's a matter of drilling the hole to precisely align with
the center hole marks (probably use a milling machine.) Now, if the
printing is not precise enough in a 2-D sense, then some sort of
"averaging" process would be necessary to determine the best center
point of the spiral -- to do this on a unit-by-unit basis.

*****

Now, with regards to substrate materials, we essentially have three
general categories (I've left wood/bamboo off this list):

1) High-quality plastic. (E.g., Cycolac/ABS, which K&E called
   'ivorite' and used in its last series of slide rules. It would not
   surprise me if, since the 1970's, a whole new bunch of much better
   plastic materials have been developed.)

2) Metal. (Aluminum or titanium looks to be of interest.)

3) Ceramic. (Probably out of the question.)

Aluminum or titanium are of especial interest since they form a fairly
stiff and durable substrate with a nice feel to it (e.g., the Pickett
slide rule). We can also entertain both hardening and coloring the
surface of aluminum using an anodization/dyeing process (don't know if
this would be too expensive -- and don't know if it's possible to
effect multiple surface background colors -- the scale marks would
still have to be inscribed or printed.) Titanium can be nitrided (to
form a golden color surface), but again this may be too expensive. (I
believe for a given thickness, a titanium alloy is both stiffer and
lighter weight than aluminum alloys -- is this so?)

Lots of ways to go.

Jon


author: Ned Simmons

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] says...

For a true engraved scale I'd look into laser engraving or
photo-etching for moderate quantities, for example...

http://www.synrad.com/search_apps/process/engraving.htm
or
<http://www.tech-
etch.com/photoetch/photogallery/LaserScale.html>

Presumably the laser engraver could be driven by a CAD
file. It shouldn't be too difficult to import coordinates
from a spreadsheet into Autocad (probably via .dxf) to
generate the spiral, scale points and graduation text. This
would give you a very accurate easily modifiable model of
the scale. Prototypes would be easy by plotting onto
adhesive backed mylar.

I'd be willing to give this a shot if a mathematical
representation of the scale is available. I also have
access to machine tools for prototype construction.

Off the top of my head, I think you'll find aluminum to be
stiffest per unit weight for a solid flat plate among the
above materials.

Ned Simmons


text:
Ned Simmons wrote:

A minute before receiving your message, I sent out an inquiry about
laser engraving, so your reply is very timely for sure.

I would suspect (but am not sure) that photo-etching will have a
substantial setup cost, but once setup, the per-part manufacturing
cost (not counting setup costs) will be lower than laser engraving,
which is a one-off process. I don't know about the precision of the
photoetching, but it seems like it will compete with laser engraving
except for very small sizes (I'm just guessing here.)

Yes, this is how they work, from my online research.

As I noted in my original message, a zip archive of a Postscript
rendering (and a PDF conversion) of the Atlas 3 spiral scale is found
at:

   http://www.openreader.org/gilsonatlas/GilsonAtlas3.zip

Read the text file in that zip archive. The author of the Postscript
file, Wayne Harrison, is still active on the 'sliderule' group on
Yahoo, so I assume he'd be able to advise us with the mathematics of
the spiral and the marks. Also, the authors of the journal article on
the Gilson Atlas may also provide advice.

(By and large, I understand the mathematics of the spiral and marks,
but I've not reduced it down to formulae that would work with a CAD
system -- it depends upon the coordinate system used. Maybe this
weekend I'll put something together.)

Wow, great! Two others have offered their help: John Eric Voltin and
Dr. Sam. Hopefully others will also step forward to help. If it makes
sense, I can start a separate mailing list on Yahoo for more serious
discussion of this project. We can also consider a short
teleconference (using FreeConference.Com) to help get the project
properly launched (we would need to do teleconferences only
occasionally -- most of it can be done by online communication, such
as the mailing list and AIM or YahooIM.)

Yes, that is my impression. Titanium doesn't appear to offer anything
special or unique for this particular project (as far as I can tell)
other than it being a "sexy" material (the bare metal is more
corrosion-resistant, especially in ocean environments.)

A higher-end aluminum alloy (such as the venerable 6061) appears to
offer a good choice as substrate material. The other choice would be a
higher-end plastic as noted in prior messages.

With aluminum, we can either keep it bare metal, or anodize it (with
choice of color(s) or simply clear), or use some paint-like or plastic
coating on it. There's advantages and disadvantages for each option.

With plastic, it will probably have to be thicker to maintain
sufficient stiffness and "feel", but this is not a major issue (if
it is 8.25" diameter, anything between 0.25 to 0.5" thick seems
right to me.) The plastic chosen would have to meet various
requirements, some of which are related to how the scale will be
placed on it (e.g., if laser engraved, certain plastics cannot be
used since they produce poisonous gases, such as PVC.) Some plastics
appear to be quite difficult to coat or print on (try coating Teflon
or other fluorinated plastic. <smile/>)

Jon


text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
says...

I printed the pdf and made a crude mylar cursor. It looks very good--I
may have been jummping to conclusions about needing a CAD model. When
all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

You were being kind when you said the instructions you pointed to in an
earlier post were 'terse'. I assume that choosing on which ring to read
the result involves jumping rings based on how far the
multiplier/divisor is from the center ring?

If I get a chance this week I'll print a scale on mylar and stick it to
some lexan or acrylic and make some real cursors.

One possibility for laser engraving might be black anodized aluminum
with a silkscreened overlay to get the color bands. If you can burn thru
the overlay without damaging the anodize, you've got your color bands
and dark graduations in one shot. Registration and durability of the
overlay are things to consider. Time for advice from the engravers, I
think.

Ned Simmons


text:
Ned Simmons wrote:

<laugh/>

Actually, the method to determine which spiral segment to read the
answer requires that one first determine the approximate 3-4-digit
result using the outer scale (refer to the PDF). It's the one downside
to the Atlas approach at high-precision calculation ("high-precision"
for a slide rule, at least.) When using the spiral, simply select the
spiral segment corresponding to the 3-4-digit answer (one has to redo
the whole calculational sequence when using the spiral -- there's no
way to transfer results from the outer scale to the spiral since they
are of different lengths.)

However, interestingly, one can use the outer scale for most work (and
ignore the spiral section), and still get precision equivalent to a
25" linear rule (which were made but are very unwieldly -- most slide
rules used by engineers/scientists for rough calculations were 10"
long). But the spiral scale is there when an engineer/scientist needs
the extra 1-2 digits of precision.

There is another interesting and fairly simple slide rule (a
cylindrical type also of very long scale length) which doesn't require
a precalculation: the Otis King. (This is another on my "would like a
replica" list, but appears to be a step-up in machining complexity.)

Here's a good summary of the Otis King:

   http://www.svpal.org/~dickel/OK/OtisKing.html

And since we are talking about high-precision slide rules, the other
two which come to mind (in addition to other circular types using a
scale like the outer scale of the Atlas), the Thacher:

   http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/unusual/thatcher4.jpg

   http://www.mathsyear2000.org/museum/floor3/gallery9/gal2_2p5.html

And the Fuller:

   http://sliderules.lovett.com/fullertype2/fullertype2pics.htm

(Try to build one of these, especially the Thacher! Note that the
Atlas has as good of a precision as the Thacher/Otis King/Fuller, and
in a much simpler and much more compact package. The downside with the
Atlas, as noted above, is the need for precalculation to 3-4-digits of
the answer, while the cylindrical types give direct read-out of the
answer without need for precalculation -- however again, using the
outer scale of the Atlas outperforms nearly all linear slide rules.)

Great! Let me know how it works. Hopefully your printer has good XY
accuracy (so the printout is a true circle and not slightly
elliptical -- with my laser printer I find that one axis of the
circle is 0.03" shorter than the other, which works out to about 4
parts per thousand deviation.)

I saw on one of the laser engraving sites that they can burn through
paint coatings to expose the metal underneath, so this certainly looks
like an option.

Yes, consulting with one or more experts in laser engraving/etching is
a good idea. The most important thing to ask is how much time it will
take to burn the long spiral scale and associated tick marks and
lettering --> time == $$$. Fortunately we don't have to burn deep or
wide. The substrate material undoubtedly affects burn time (based on
its optical and thermophysical properties), so again feedback from
the experts in laser engraving will assist with material selection.

Jon


author: ptek

subject: Driving a DC motor

text:
Hi,

I pretend to control a small dc motor (about 5 - 6V) using a
microcontroller (PIC) and I think I need some precautions since the
motor may be an inductive load...

What I want to do is this : the PIC connects to the base of a
transistor working in saturation zone, so that is behaves like a
switch turning on and off the motor's power supply (you know, the
motor is wired to the power source and connected to the transistor
colector, the usual stuff.)

By doing PWM on the signal outputed by the PIC to the transistor's
base, it's possible to control the motor speed (the motor is "quickly"
beeing turned on and off).

Since the motor is an inductive load (all dc motor are? correct me if
i'm worng) each time I power it and "unpower" it, a spike of current
is generated so the life of this circuit would be seriously shortened
...

What is the easiest yet functional way to protect it agains these
spikes ? Some diodes ? Where and how ? I'm know very little about this
matter ... A small schematic or a detailed description of an example
circuit is really welcome.

Thanks a lot

Pedro Duarte


author: Jerry G.

subject: Re: Driving a DC motor

text:
You can use a transistor to drive the motor. Use a series resistor on the
base of the transistor to limit the base current.  You would have to work
out the value according to the amount of required base current required.
This will isolate the base a little, and thus give the transistor some
current limiting.

Put a small capacitor arrangement across the motor. Take care for the
polarity of the cap (as normal).  You can typically use a 10 uF / 25 V in
parallel to a 0.1 uF / 100 V cap. This is done very often in many types of
devices using small DC motors.  These are very common type voltage ratings
at the values indicated.  The idea of the smaller cap is to suppress any
high frequency noise that the larger cap cannot deal with because of its
structure. The larger cap is the main suppressor for the lower frequency
noise or spiking factor.

Across the transistor you can put a silicon type rectifier diode.  Take
regard for the polarity of the diode.  You want to have the diode arranged
so that it only conducts across the transistor inversely. This will suppress
any reverse polarity noise from going across the transistor. Only when the
transistor is forward conducting the motor should run.

The PWM effect should still work.  The cap arrangement across the motor is
not large enough to cause any delay effects, or cause excessive loading.


author: cpemma

subject: Re: Driving a DC motor

text:
Jerry G. wrote:

You can put the same inverse diode across the motor instead, which will also
protect other electronics on the supply line, as shown
http://www.cpemma.co.uk/555pwm.html


author: Myron Samila

subject: Re: Driving a DC motor

text:
Actually, some brushless DC fans are impedance protected.

Also, in professional stage dimmer applications, we use opto-isolators and opto-couplers
to isolate the sensitive electronics from these types of problems you mention.  ie: MOC
3021.


author: SRFNSON

subject: Deletigng maps and waypoints in 2610

text:
how do you delete maps and waypoints that are in 2610?

can't find answer in manual

Thanks


subject: Re: Deletigng maps and waypoints in 2610

text:
Try hitting the menu button while you are on the waypoints page.

That should open a delete option

Same for maps, hit menu while on the map page (list of maps on CF
card), should open a delete option, but it may only give choice of
delete all maps.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:37:51 GMT, "SRFNSON" <[email]>
wrote:


text:
You can only enable or disable maps when hitting menu from the map info
page.

There is an option in mapsource to clear CF card but this only works if CF
card is in a USB card reader and not in GPS.

Still puzzled

"lizard@My_Lair.com" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: BillW

text:
Reloading a new map set to the card erases all old maps on the card..

"SRFNSON" <[email]> wrote in message
news:X6yqb.322438$6C4.210221@pd7tw1no...


text:
Right you are. Thanks for the info!

"BillW" <[email]> wrote in message
news:b7zqb.7988$[email]...
CF


author: Punish Biosociopaths

text:
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1035873451136

BUSH ENERGY POLICY: Messy trail of responsibility for oil disaster
By Leslie Crawford and Toby Shelley
Published: November 19 2002 22:43 | Last Updated: November 19 2002
22:43
When a stricken tanker is registered in the Bahamas, owned by a
Liberian company, managed by Greek administrators, chartered by a
Swiss-based Russian oil trader and sails under the command of a Greek
captain with an Asian crew, who is ultimately responsible for the
environmental and economic damage caused by oil spills?

The sinking of the Prestige, an ageing, single-hulled ship, off the
northern Spanish coast on Tuesday with 70,000 tonnes of industrial
fuel, has rekindled debate over the inspection of sea-faring vessels
and enforcement of international shipping laws.

The 26-year-old tanker developed a crack in its hull during a storm
last week. It has already spilled 10,000 tonnes of its highly toxic
cargo, causing a 130km oil slick that has contaminated much of
Galicia's rich fisheries. More than 1,000 fishermen have been thrown
out of work, seabirds have been coated in oil and lobster banks
destroyed.

Maritime traffic is intense in the north Atlantic, and this is not the
first time an oil spill has blackened Spain's north-west coast.
France, too, has suffered ecological disasters caused by shipping
accidents and on Tuesday, President Jacques Chirac called for
"draconian" maritime security measures to protect Europe's coastline.

In 1999, the Erika sank off the coast of Brittany, spilling 15,000
tonnes of fuel which contaminated more than 400km of coast. After the
incident, France asked the European Union to set up a maritime safety
organisation, but discussions got bogged down over where to locate it.

"We have made very firm propositions, notably after the Erika drama,"
Mr Chirac said. "It is now urgent to take measures that are a bit
draconian, serious and severe, even if they conflict with the
interests of certain companies."

Josï¿½ Mara Aznar, Spain's prime minister, has threatened legal action
to recoup the cost of the environmental clean-up.

But who could the prime minister sue? Lawyers say it has become
increasingly difficult to enforce international maritime law at a time
when companies and ship owners are cutting costs by registering their
vessels in tax havens and hiring cheap, but often poorly trained,
crews.

The Prestige was no exception. Registered in the Bahamas, it was owned
by Mare Shipping, a Liberian company, managed by Universe Maritime, a
Greek company, and had been chartered by Crown Resources, a
Swiss-based Russian commodities trader.

So far, Spanish authorities have only been able to get hold of
Apostolus Maguras, the Greek captain, who has been remanded in custody
in the port of La Corun~a.

Politics also gets in the way. When the Prestige ran into trouble last
week, the Spanish government jumped on the fact that the tanker was
heading for Gibraltar - a territory claimed by Spain - to accuse the
British colony of failing to comply with EU directives on the
inspection of maritime vessels. Loyola de Palacio, a Spaniard and the
EU's transport and energy commissioner, went further and blamed
Gibraltar for the disaster.

Nonsense, replied the British government. In a letter to the European
Commission, obtained by the Financial Times, Sir Nigel Sheinwald,
permanent represen tative to the EU, says the Prestige was not
operating to Gibraltar on its ill-fated last voyage.

"The only time in the last five years that the Prestige has stopped in
Gibraltar was on June 13 2002, to refuel, without even entering the
port," the letter says.

The clean-up costs will fall under the remit of the International
Maritime Organisation's Civil Liability Convention of 1975. Under
this, the shipowner has strict liability for a tanker spill but it is
capped, currently to a maximum of $80m.

In 95 per cent of cases, CLC compensation is sufficient to fund a
clean-up, according to Intertanko, the trade association of
independent tanker owners. Where it is not, the International Oil
Pollution Compensation Fund, financed by the receivers of oil, comes
into play. The maximum combined compensation under the two regimes is
$180m.

The accident has also focused attention on the inspection of ageing
vessels. Yesterday, the European Commission demanded governments move
faster to enforce new inspection rules.

Under these rules, port authorities will be required to check at least
25 per cent of all ships coming into dock, starting with older,
single-hull vessels. Ships flying flags of convenience are to be given
priority, an EU spokesman said.


author: Don Staples

subject: Re: BUSH ENERGY POLICY: Messy trail of responsibility for oil disaster

text:
As was asked elsewhere, what has this got to do with Bush Energy Policy, or
is it a secret agenda you espouse?

"Punish Biosociopaths" <[email]> wrote in
message news:[email]...
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
=StoryFT&cid=1035873451136


author: Lion Kuntz

text:
"Don Staples" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Oil Millionaire GW Bush and Oil Millionaire Cherney have hijacked all
of America's Energy Policy to their plutocratic-class maximum profits.
It is blatent, obvious, visible. There is no secret. Why voters allow
these pigs to gorge using public power is the secret. Can you explain
that to me?


text:
"Lion Kuntz" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<[email]>...
or
Do try to pay attention.  What has a tanker off the coast of Spain breaking
up have to do with the Bush Energy policy?  It has no connection to the US.

But then, as a troll, you have a slow response to answer with logic and the
truth.

Be gone, troll, the sun approaches.


subject: DON STAPLES ENERGY POLICY: Messy trail of responsibility for oil disaster

text:
"Don Staples" <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Gonna bury you with science and facts... L.K.

======================================
http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=716D726A-F6A6-4324-8BACA8BE38B355CB

Experts Evaluate Environmental Damage from Prestige Oil Spill
Grace Cutler
London
21 Nov 2002, 19:09 UTC

 Listen to Grace Cutler's report from London (RealAudio) ï¿½
 Cutler report - Download 762KB (RealAudio) ï¿½

Map courtesy of WWF - World Wide Fund For Nature Environmental
organizations have voiced concern that the oil seeping from the sunken
tanker Prestige off the coast of Spain could trigger a major
ecological disaster. The short-term impact on animals and coastal
industries can be devastating. Some experts say the long-term impact
from these massive oil spills may not be as dramatic as it seems.

As salvage workers on Spain's northwestern coast struggle to keep
millions of liters of fuel oil away from the shore, many are already
trying to calculate the environmental and economic damage caused by
the spill. The Spanish government has declined to give specific
predictions, but the World Wildlife Fund says the spill will devastate
Spain's fishing industry, and will destroy the fragile seashore rich
in fish, birds, and marine mammals.

But the long-term effect of an oil spill on wildlife is the subject of
much debate among experts. Some argue that animals and birds are
harmed many years after the event. Thirteen years after the Exxon
Valdez disaster in Alaska, for example, scientists say oil still
contaminates the coastline.

That spill was not the world's largest, but is considered the worst in
terms of damage to the environment. An Alaska citizens group, the Oil
Spill Trustee Council, says of all animals affected, only the bald
eagle and river otter populations have recovered. Many other species,
including endangered killer whales, have made little or no progress at
all.

The Exxon Valdez spill involved more than 40 million liters of crude
oil, which is more damaging than the fuel oil spilled by the Prestige.

AP
A veterinarian helps a bird covered in oil after the oil spill off the
coast of SpainBut as in the case of many oil spills that reach shore,
images of the Spanish coastline transformed into stagnant pools of
sludgy liquid and oil-slicked birds and other marine life are filling
the public consciousness. But Paul Kingston from the Center for Marine
Diversity and Biotechnology at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh,
Scotland says the chances of recovery for the wildlife may be better
than they appear.

"One sort of envisages death and destruction and if you see a shore as
far as you can see covered in black tar with struggling birds on it,
it is not a nice sight," Mr. Kingston said. "But as a biologist, if
you look at the numbers that are actually killed even in some of the
worst oil spills, even though they are high, in terms of the total
bird population, they are not that high, and populations do tend to
recover."

Mr. Kingston says shore animals have adapted over the centuries to the
need to rapidly replenish their populations, which are routinely
depleted by harsh sea and weather conditions. In addition, he says
fuel oil spills are relatively short lived because the oil has very
little toxic residue, unlike other, more noxious types of oil, such as
diesel or crude oil. The danger for a spill like the Prestige, he
says, lies in its initial stages when the sticky oil comes into
contact with marine life. It clings to the animals' skin and feathers
immobilizing and sometimes suffocating them.

"Once the bulk oil has been removed, and that is quite important, the
shore itself will recover relatively quickly, particularly on a rocky
shore where the oil is superficial. It is just attached to the surface
of the rocks, and it is cleaned off. And that can happen quite
naturally by wave action. The only problem that can arise is if the
oil gets buried someway in the sediments, but even then it can sort of
sit underneath the sediments and providing it is deep enough, it is
not going to effect the surface so again, the animals will settle back
again on the surface."

This is what many hope will happen to the oil that has leaked from the
Prestige.

But a large amount of the fuel remains in the ship's hold, now deep
under the sea. Some scientists believe the fuel will solidify in the
cold water and stay there at the bottom of the ocean causing little
damage. But environmental groups like Greenpeace call it a time bomb,
and say it will slowly pollute the region for years to come as oil
continues to seep out.

AP
A bird covered in oil sits on the rocks in Malpica, northwestern Spain
Making matters worse, 10 years ago the Greek tanker Aegean Sea ran
aground in the same area, releasing more than 75 million gallons of
crude oil into the sea. Scientists say the area has not yet recovered.

The long-term, global impact on marine life from these and other
spills is still not clear.

World Wildlife Fund biologist Susana Riqina says toxins leaked from
oil are absorbed and accumulate in the bodies of marine animals. She
says as fish and other animals migrate and feed off each other, toxic
contaminants spread.

"It is difficult to determine why animals are dying and in different
areas in the world. For instance whales and many other animals appear
(to be) dying at the coast. Sometimes we do not know why, really," Ms.
Riqina said. "But we should be sure that all these problems are
connected. And what happened here can produce problems (in) any other
part of the world because animals move."

Ms. Riqina says fuel oil can mix with heavy metals, sulfurs and other
toxins, and threaten the worldwide ecological balance. But Paul
Kingston, the researcher in Edinburgh, argues pollutants from spilled
fuel oil break down very quickly when they are eaten by animals, and
their strength is further diluted as they move through the food chain.

Still, the immediate damage is considerable, and environmental groups
are calling for governments to do more to prevent accidents from
happening. The World Wildlife Fund has been lobbying the Spanish
government to declare its northwest coastline a protected area, which
would keep shipping traffic away from the coast, and minimize damage
if other spills happen.


author: Kamal R. Prasad

subject: Re: India to get more H1B visas - NOT

text:
The Trucker wrote:

I remember reading that both democrats and republicans voted for H1B
quota increases. The San Jose Mercury news reported that the silicon
valley fund [or something named like that for the hi tech lobby] paid
campaign finance to both democrats and republicans in line with their
voting pattern.

You can yank their charter -it means nothing to them. The key is
whether you decide to confiscare their capital -which is when they will
yank their capital before you can implement your ideas. Lots of
countries or even states within the US are willing to court private
equity with incentives -just in case you don't want any of it.

I don't have anything positive to say about american politicians -but
you do need to get over your ideas of entitlement. There is nothing
that entitles citizens of a given country to a decent wage. You need to
bring value to the table and be competitive, to earn your living.

regards
-kamal


author: The Trucker

subject: Re: India to get more H1B visas - NOT

text:
"Kamal R. Prasad" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

And when you find the "pattern" you will fid thst te Republicans are
way ahead of the Democrats in collection of payola and in voting
for increase in H1B visas.

So you are telling us that GM is going to yank its manufcturing
systems and haul them of to India?   Maybe they will be taking
all the land they own ti INdia too.  I think not.  but so what if
they did?  If they are\not going to pay lots of taxes and are
not going to hire Americans then their presence here is an
insult.

Ths is where we diasagree.  If the House of Represnetatives of
the UnitedStates is, in truth, a House tht represents the common
people of this country then we ARE entitled to a decent wage and
will have it if it means that corporations are barred from operating
here.


author: anon

subject: Re: India to get more H1B visas - NOT

text:
"Kamal R. Prasad" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

one can bring value, skills, productivity and still get treated like sh*t.
this is political economy.


author: Sharlune

subject: Recursive Parametric Segmentation Algorithm

text:
I'm not familiar in this field (Image Processing) at all, but I want it
for using it in some other work.
I want a parametric algorithm for Image Segmentation or Object
recognition. I mean the algorithm to work by setting some parameters
and different values of these parameters should change the output of
the algorithm. I want to make a recursive way to find the optimal
values for the parameters using some AI methods. Can anyone introduce
me something?

Thanks a lot :)
Roozbeh


author: Martin Leese

subject: Re: Recursive Parametric Segmentation Algorithm

text:
Sharlune wrote:

On another thread somebody gave this URL.  I believe it
will help you.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

What do you wish to segment?  What object do you wish to
recognize?  In practical terms, what is your problem?


text:
Dear Martin, well I don't have any particular problem in mind. It can
be segmentation or recognition of anything!
I just want to focus on the other part, so I prefer the implementation
of the image segmentation/recognition not to be difficult.

Thanks for your reply
Roozbeh
Web: http://sharlunika.com/


text:
Sharlune wrote:

General image segmentation is extremely difficult.
Please see this recent thread in this newsgroup:
http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.image.processing/browse_frm/thread/5ad605669ddc3f0d/91917a0c6f338421?q=locate+*+image+subject+(region+OR+r%C3%A9gion+OR+regi%C3%B3n)+author:martin+author:leese&rnum=2&hl=en#91917a0c6f338421


author: Peter Jason

subject: Did Egyptian cats have ear-rings?

text:
Some of the statuettes show cats with
fetching gold ear-rings.
Can we assume this was the case with live
cats too?


author: Whiskers

subject: Re: Did Egyptian cats have ear-rings?

text:
On 2007-12-06, Peter Jason <[email]> wrote:

Meeoowww!  <pose>


author: Lisbeth Andersson

subject: Re: Did Egyptian cats have ear-rings?

text:
"Peter Jason" <[email]> wrote in news:fj80e8$1odl$1
@otis.netspace.net.au:

I don't know. How many cat mummies with earrings have been found?

Lisbeth.

----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.

*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.


author: William Holmes

subject: Re: The Solar Solutions

text:
To: Geoff Henderson
Subject: RE: The Solar Solutions

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Henderson [mailto:[email]]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 1998 10:40 AM
To: William T Holmes
Subject: The Solar Solutions

William Holmes wrote in reply to someone else:
was
scientific

Engineering reasons - it's too damned expensive!

The costs of building a Nuclear Power Station are not high. An endless
stream
of buracratic non-sense is what is expensive. The actual cost of building a
Nuclear
power station (the plant itself) are not much more than an equivelent sized
fossil
fuel plant. As far as the fuel costs go there is not even a comparision.
Nuclear fuel
is two orders of magnitude less expensive than is fossil fuel.

Considering that fossil fuel is at least an order of magnitude cheaper than
wind and
solar those technologies donï¿½t make ecnonoic sense as long as Nuclear fuel
is available
and that time frame is 200 years without reprocessing and 2000 years with.

Solar
for

Biomass and hydro provide storage of solar energy, and the wind blows
at night.   Note also that fossil fuels are simply stored solar energy
- the problem with them is they are being laid down at about
one-millionth of the rate we are using them, whereas the solar resource
(about 1380 W/sq.m flux, not 400 W/sq.m which is the figure you keep
quoting), is 10,000 times humanity's requirements.

Biomass produces CO2.  Hydroelectric destroys the environment and has
very little additonal potential anyway.  Pump storage is not efficient less
than
30%.

As far as solar flux in Upstate New York the solar flux is not 1380 W/sq M.
its
430 watts /square meter.

Even with your figure of 1380 W/sq meter 1000 Megawatts (the size of an
average
nuclear power station) you need 724637 square meters of 100 % efficient
solar
collection area. This assumes that the sun shines 24 hours a day. Given that
the
storage is not even close to being perfect and that the sun does not shine
24 hours
a day and that on many days of the year cloud cover significantly reduces
the actual
flux hitting the collectors  you would need many times that area to meet the
real
demand.

This is an area 851 meters on a side. The actual area counting 12 hours of
perfect
sunlight, 70% loss in storage (you need energy at night) 15% actual solar
collection
efficiency.  is about 14 million square meters or 3.9 kilometers square. And
this is
still assuming perfectly sunny weather. Thatï¿½s to replace ONE nuclear power
plant.

very
collect

Try quantifying "vast" before putting your mouth into gear.  Yes
biomass would require a lot of land, (about 25% of most nations) but
solar, wind and hydro are a couple of orders of magnitude more
land-efficient.

And running the entire United States on Nuclear would occupy less than
1% of the total land area.

 Consider for example that a modern windmill physically
occupies about 25 sq.m (one-sixth the area of a typical house) but
provides enough for about 100-200 housholds on average.

How many watts does this windmill actually produce ?  A hair dryer
uses 1000 watts. Can this single wind-mill actually produce 200 Kw ?
I have seen some pretty big wind mills 100 foot diameter blades that
can manage 12 Kw in average winds. Thatï¿½s enough for 120 100 watt
light bulbs or .6 per/house based on you figure of 200 houses.

I would really like to see you figures if you have a source that I can look
at I would appreciate a URL or reference.

  Roading etc
can take up a bit more land than the 25 sq. m (or not depending on the
existing infrastructure).  But the vast majority (typically 97%) of
land "used" for wind farming is actually still in agriculture (grazing
or cropping) so it is a dual use of land.

Similarly rooftop PV does not take up any land, so it is infinitely
land-efficient.

Thatï¿½s fine but the area of roofs in insufficient to collect the needed
energy even with your figure of 1380 watts / square meter.

If you are going to push the nuclear barrow, could you please do it on
another thread.  This one is labelled the solar solutions.

I did not start the barrow rolling, but as long as I see unscientific claims
made against Nuclear and equally unscientific claims made for solar
I will continue posting.

I have nothing against solar energy but it is being sold a solution to
our energy needs when in fact it is not practical for large scale energy
production.  This wonï¿½t change with time unless you can get the sun
to increase its output.

In the mean time we continue producing large quantities of CO2 and other
green house gasses unnecessarily. The technology exists right now to
shut down all fossil based fixed energy production. That technology is not
solar or wind or biomass its Nuclear.

Unfortunately persons like yourself are to close minded to objectively
access
anything Nuclear.

Geoff Henderson
PE (Calif & NZ)
Director, Wind Torque Ltd
12 Scotston Ave, Christchurch, New Zealand
add .nz to e-mail me
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^
Engineers, economists and environmentalists have a common goal, maximising
per-capita
well-being at minimum cost.  Unfortunately they do not always agree on the
definitions of
well-being and cost.
We engineer cost-effective wind power solutions for a sustainable future.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: The Solar Solutions

text:
In article <6lnp2q$[email]>,
  "William Holmes" <[email]> wrote:

Do you have figures for costs to back up these assertions, I can tell you
that in the UK where a lot of money has been spent on subsidising nuclear it
still costs 8 pence/kWh to produce electricity, in the last round of the UK's
renewable energy support programme wind energy recieved an average of 3.56
pence per kWh, ie it is half the price of nuclear, furthermore there is
evidence that not enough money is being set aside for nuclear decommisionning
so that the 8 pence figure probably is an underestimate of the true costs.
Solar is of course not comparable with wind but I would still be somewhat
surprised to find it was producing power at 80pence/kWh.

Biomass is CO2 neutral.

Do you not have a national grid system in the US then?

The average windmill installed in Germany in 1997 was around 650kW, I would
imagine this figure would be fairly typical on a world basis dependent on the
particular needs of consumers, eg its lower in Denmark as small coops buy
their own turbines.  The average figure has roughly doubled in the last 4-5
years and most likely will continue to rise quite rapidly, Vestas, the
world's largest turbine manufacturer have a 1.65 MW turbine available
commercially.

Peter Connor

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


author: Steve Hemphill

subject: Re: Insolation

text:
There appears to be some mass confusion concerning
insolation.  For actual values by latitude and month (at no
cloud cover) you can go to:
http://www.covis.nwu.edu/gev.cgi
Basically,
southern US max is about 350 w/m^2,
northern US max is about 300 w/m^2

(Maximum insolation normal to incidence is about 1400 w/m^2)

For required area, I think 10% efficiency is the typical
present cost competitive number (lowest cost per watt
production value) and the upper end of prototypes of unknown
production cost is about 20%.

Somebody check my numbers, please:


author: Geoff Henderson

subject: Re: The Solar Solutions

text:
William Holmes wrote in reply to my posting:

Sorry, whining about safety-compliance costs does not remove the fact
that nuclear energy demands high safety standards and this costs money.

Are you including all fuel-cycle costs, including waste treatment and
disposal?

Nonsense. Gas-fired combined cycle is the cheapest form of
fossil-fuelled power and works out at about 5 c/kWh (capital and
running costs).  Wind power is also about 5 c/kWh (capital and running)
so it is very competitive, certainly not an order of magnitude dearer.

Nonsense again, it is a zero net CO2 producer (must be).  Think about
it.  Think also about the food you eat.  Are you a net CO2 producer?
If you were, you would starve.  Fortunately we grow food on a
sustainable basis, unlike our use of fossil fuels where we ignore the
implications of depleting our resource.  Imagine if we reaped more than
we sowed.

Typical modern windmills are rated at 500-600 kW, with rotor diameters
in the 33-50 m (100-160 ft) range.  In average winds (say 15 knots) a
100 ft windmill will produce about 75 kW (not 12).

Try the American Wind Energy Association site, www.awea.com for
starters.

I accept that you are a well-meaning person and no doubt a good
scientist.  Please do me the same respect as an engineering-science
exponent.  Engineering introduces the discipline of economics, which I
believe is missing from most scientific assessments of nuclear power
(dating from the 1950's - "too cheap to meter", ha!).

As an engineer I have worked alongside people working on nuclear power
(in England at Taylor Woodrow Construction).  The amount of engineering
which had to go into each step of the process was staggering.  I
remember one guy working on a coring machine to inspect steel drums
containing rad-waste.  What a coring machine that had to be!

All my exposure to nuclear power has convinced me it is simply too
expensive (taking all costs into account, and even if you leave out
the cost of insurance as is presently done.  Put in the cost of
insurance, as any other market player must, and nuclear just dies).

But I don't care if you don't accept my opinion.  The solar solutions
should not be slugging it out with nuclear - we should both be fighting
to apply polluter pays to fossil fuel emissions so that we have a level
playing field with respect to CO2.  On that level playing field I am
confident that the solar solutions (including wind, hydro and
biomass) will be cheaper than nuclear.

The scientific fact remains that the solar flux hitting the Earth is
178,000 TW, 10,000 times humanity's requirements of about 17 TW.  And
fossil fuels are only being laid down at about 5 MW.

Nuclear may be part of the future, but solar also has a part to play.
I believe it will be the larger part.

Geoff Henderson
PE (Calif & NZ)
Director, Wind Torque Ltd
12 Scotston Ave, Christchurch, New Zealand
add .nz to e-mail me
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Engineers, economists and environmentalists have a common goal, maximising per-capita
well-being at minimum cost.  Unfortunately they do not always agree on the definitions of
well-being and cost.
We engineer cost-effective wind power solutions for a sustainable future.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


subject: Re: The Solar Solutions

text:
Geoff Henderson <[email]> wrote in message
[email]...

I am not whining about valid safety-compliance costs.  I am simply pointing
out that a good deal of money is spent on buracratic non-sense rather than
on engineering and construction.

Yes I am.  The total volume of fuel is very small less than 1/2 meter cubed
per year per 1000 MWatts.

I did say fuel costs. A nuclear energy's  cost ditribution is about 90%
capitol
and 10% running.  What that means to me is investment now with eventual
payback. In a world that thinks to the tip of its nose and not much further
this
puts Nuclear at a distinct disadvantage. However those who only think to the
tip of their nose are not considering many factors:

1. CO2 is now effecting the environment continued production is not in the
long
    term interests.

2. Fossil fuels do have a unique quality that no other energy source has.
Portibiltiy.
    You can't run an airliner on solar, wind, or nuclear power. Each of
these energy
    sources is a fixed source type of energy. It is foolish to waste our
fossil fuel
    producing energy in a fixed location when it could be produced by
alternatives.

But food is porduction is not CO2 zero net.  To grow and harvest food
requires using energy. Have you been to the midwest of the US ? They
have thousands of dissel water pumps to irrigate the crops. This is simply
to grow food. Now we talking about growing just to have energy available.

We haven't even started talking about what intensive agriculture does to
the soil.  And even so you are still dependent on a good year of growth.
If you have a failure you are in trouble. Bio-Mass may be practicle for
for utilizing "waste" material for agriculture and other sources but it is
unlikely to be practicle in a world that already is short of food and
airable
land.

My winds don't average that high. 5 knots is a more likely average. That's
not to say that there are not areas that average above 15 knots. I'm sure
there are.

Even so 600 KW is less than 1/1000 the output of a single Nuclear Power
Station. (1000 Megawatts). That is a lot of windmills. At the average wind
speed (15 knots) and output of (75Kw) that's 13,000 windmills Which is
a stright line 120 miles long (assumng zero clearence between 100 ft
blades).

What is the cost for one of these windmills ?  How much for 5kw in 5 knot
winds ?
I ask because I use about 1.2 KW average in my home. So assuming I stay on
the grid so I don't have to buy storage ( and assuming that my electic
company
allows me to put power back on the grid which I believe assuming I meet
their
requirements for sycronization they are required to do) I wouldn't mind
reducing
the worlds CO2 production.

I would like to compare this to investing in a 1 GWatt Nuclear Power plant.
Reactor Designs Like the Wesitinghouse AP600 and General Atomics MHTGR
put costs at about $2000 KW. Now if I am willing to make a 40 year
investment
even doubling the costs to account for unforseen repairs ect...  I am
talking about
$200 for my energy needs that's $5 per year. That's a pretty cheap power
plant.
Now if we want to account for the fuel cycle and maintanence  we have to add
somthing
to this but at most it would be $100 / year. If I double it again that's
$210.00/year total.
So in 40 years that's $8400.

What will a 5 Kw windmill cost me ?

Can you give me a 5kw wind generating package for under $10,000 ?

I guess we will all see at least I hope all of us will.

^^
per-capita
definitions of
^^


subject: Re: The Solar Solutions

text:
Geoff Henderson wrote:

That was a simple (and true) statement on the convolution of
the requirements.

Consider that the bureaucratic nightmare changes whenever
somebody new comes into the upper chain of command, and the
length of stay is generally less than 4 years.  Just when it's
almost ready, somebody new comes in and wants something else,
sometimes conflicting with the previous requirements.  Then,
of course, the new requirements aren't just added, it's back
to step whatever and regurgitate the entire process.

Absolutely.  And then if you consider the real costs of the
pollution of fossil fuels, it's much cheaper than that.  Even
with the realization that CO2 isn't pollution.

<snip>

We never know what improvements are just around the corner.
There are many potential future energy sources, and to argue
against the practicality of any of the close to competitive
ones now is only done by those trapped in their paradigms.

Fusion, Solar, Wind, Wave, Tidal, all may become important.

Not only that, but if climate change hits us hard enough in
the increased sink department, we'd want to increase fossil
fuel consumption.


author: Gregg

subject: Re: Building and Osciloscore

text:
Only if you want the bandwidth to be about 40 KHz. Good for audio
though, but it won't be linear over the full range.

You need a CRT with static deflection plates.

Military surplus stores may have those for $10. That's where I got
mine.

If you don't mind a circular screen, your best bet will be a 7JP4. It
has medium persistance, green trace phosphor (white screen), and I
have used one as a modulation monitor up into the GHz range.

There are much more modern tubes out there, but they cost nearly as
much as buying a ready-made 20MHz Lodestar scope.

Good luck!


subject: Re: Building and Osciloscore

text:
"Nï¿½lio Remigio Abreu" wrote ...

Asked (and answered) 3 days ago. To wit:

"Nï¿½lio Remigio Abreu" wrote ...

Yes, if:
1) If your requirements for horizontal and vertical sweep can be accomodated
with the magnetic yoke (vs electrostatic in traditional oscilloscopes)  Note
that you will likely not get anywhere near the kind of frequency response
(vertical sweep) or sweep speed (horizontal) that you would get from even a
cheap conventional oscilloscope.
2) If you can design or acquire the circuits necessary to drive the yoke and
grid.


author: Andre

subject: Re: Building and Osciloscore

text:
[email] (Gregg) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

There was a project in EPE a while back to use a TV as an oscilloscope
- used the TV intact and stored the trace and fed it directly into the
TV's video input as a complete frame .


author: P.J. ``Slob'' Gobbs

subject: Re: Compulsory post mortem dissection

text:
Jeffrey Goldberg wrote:
   Sorry - goes to show that I shouldn't jump to conclusions!  Any claim
that comments on usenet about such a thing are actionable sounds so
goofy that I got the wrong idea.

   I only killfile folks in my home group, alt.slack, where it's
necessary to handle the flow of idiocy.  I'm just a day-tripper here;
while I'd love to be cryopreserved, I'm not likely to be able to afford
the insurance in the shape I'm in.  =(


author: John de Rivaz

subject: Re: Compulsory post mortem dissection

text:
There are other funding options on http://www.cryonics.org if you are
serious.No one knows that you are looking at a web site.


author: Dingleberry Dogg

subject: Re: Compulsory post mortem dissection

text:
John de Rivaz wrote:

  Heh.  No anonymity issues here, believe me.  Bookmarked.


author: David Christainsen

subject: Is this kind of marine archaeology using sidescan legitimate?

text:
Friends,

Update on Deep Water Megalithic Stones and Structures Near Western Cuba
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=587&category=Science

Submerged city in the Gulf of Khambat:
neolithic precursor of the Sarasvati Sindhu Valley Civilization
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/khambat/khambat01.htm

Do we have a revolution a la Hancock on our hands or is there
another explanation?

Best,
Dave


author: Rocket Scientist

subject: Re: Is this kind of marine archaeology using sidescan legitimate? ABSOLUTELY YES!

text:
On 26 Sep 2003, [email] (David Christainsen) wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Right on! But you know, between the Holy Bible,
Edgar Cayce and Nostradamus, the rest of ya'll
are just playing "catch-ups". As for orthodoxy
of science and religion, they've been dead for
quite some time now. Like the film Sixth Sense
with Bruce Willis: they're dead, but they just
don't know it yet but the signs are everywhere.

Enjoy!
Daniel

*Min's Notes & Links on the "A" word:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Historical Calendar Of Jesus:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Compleat Tarot Manual:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Light & Sound:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Astronomical Observations:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Planetary Awareness Technique (work in progress):
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Official PGP Public Key on the MIT server:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

*Min's Home Page On The World Wide Web:
 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQA/AwUBP3W+lpljD7YrHM/nEQIXfwCeJUZVE4fNzbP/FSPW/cCD1k7d6ZUAnA0i
VUTIKEuSGDJf1kFnqctq7FpF
=Hc9Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
The original sender is unknown.  Any address shown in the From header
is unverified.


author: Thomas McDonald

subject: Re: Is this kind of marine archaeology using sidescan legitimate?

text:
"David Christainsen" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Dave,

    Both sites have people making reasonable claims about them, primarily
that the apparent anomolies require more and better research to determine
what, if anything, about them is the result of human activity.

    Both sites also have people, a la Hancock, making claims, often
disguised as 'what-if' questions, that are not supported by the current
data.  In the first link above, there is absolutely no new information
(except perhaps the business about possible National Geographic involvement,
and the spring/summer 2004 guess as to when they'll go back to the site
again).   There is still nothing solid either way about the postulated
"sunken city".

    I've been more interested in the Gulf of Khambat location, but even that
doesn't seem to have the kind of evidence needed to establish structures or
evidence of human habitation.  Some of the 'artifacts' that first attracted
attention have been shown to be very interesting but quite natural
formations.  In addition, there has been sea-borne trade and fishing in that
area for millenia, which certainly would have left the occasional trace on
the seafloor.  Finally, there are several rivers that flow into the Gulf,
and such situations in populated regions lead to washing of artifacts
downstream into the Gulf.

    I'll be interested in seeing what comes of the work on those sites, but
as of now, I don't see anything to get too worked up about.

Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply


author: Eric Stevens

text:
On 26 Sep 2003 08:22:23 -0700, [email] (David
Christainsen) wrote:

One day we will know. Right now we almost no information and lots of
speculation.

Eric Stevens


text:
"Thomas McDonald" <[email]> wrote in message news:<i%_cb.3092$[email]>...

Tom,

Part 2 - Cuban Megaliths and the Atlantis Question
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=590&category=Science

Interview with Paul Weinzweig

"It's possible there could be metal because sometimes the darker the
image, the more dense the material. But again, this is only
hypothetical and would need to be verified by visual probes, by an ROV
(Remote Operated Video) and cameras and good lighting. The area is
quite extensive, spread out over several kilometers and we've barely
touched it in terms of video probes."

Note Metal On Stone in the Atlantis Legend - Plato's CRITIAS.

---

I invite comment on the speculation.  To get the hard data will be
expensive.

For now, does anyone find the sonar images interesting?

Best,
David


text:
Eric Stevens <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Eric,

I think Glenn Milne and his state-of-the-art inundation simulations
belong in the mix.

Best,
Dave


text:
On 8 Oct 2003 07:21:20 -0700, [email] (David
Christainsen) wrote:

Without looking it up, my memory is hazy - would you mind pointing me
to the relevant quote?

Eric Stevens


text:
Eric Stevens <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Eric,

Always a pleasure to do a service for a friend.

It was embedded inside the cited link ---

The Greek philosopher, Plato, wrote in his Dialogue called the CRITIAS
about the destroyed continent of Atlantis and its walls covered by
metals:

"The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath
the center island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well
as the inner side. One kind of stone was white, another black, and a
third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out
rocks double within, having roofs formed out of the native rock.
...The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost one,
they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall
they coated with tin, and the third,m which encompassed the citadel,
flashed with the red light of orichalcum (copper or copper alloy).

"...In the center was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon,
which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of
gold. ...All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the
pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In
the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, adorned everywhere
with gold and silver and orichalcum; all the other parts of the walls
and pillars and floor they lined with orichalcum."

Best,
Dave


text:
On 9 Oct 2003 06:14:46 -0700, [email] (David
Christainsen) wrote:

I thought it might be that. There are various translations of that
part of the text and they don't much agree about anything. The more
honest translators say they don't quite know what the circuit of the
outer wall was covered with other than that it was yellow. Brass has
been suggested and so too has bronze, gold and a lacquer of amber laid
in oil (varnish in other words).

The silvery metal is generally translated as either silver or tin. In
other words, its nature is not clearly identified. The only general
agreement between the various translations is as to the gold.

Brass will have long ago dissolved and so too may bronze, depending on
the composition. The tin will have gone and so too will metallic
silver. If there is any metal down their in accordance with Critias,
it will be gold. But that much gold ... ?

As for the orichalcum: nobody really knows what it is as the meaning
had become lost even by the time of Plato. It can't have been gold,
silver or any of the common metals as Plato certainly hadn't lost the
meaning of those words. It has been suggested that it may be amber.

The URL you referred me to
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=590&category=Science
appears to make use of the Benjamin Jowett translation which, in my
opinion, builds a number of possible misconceptions into the
translation in order to prove a point. I am always cautious about
literal translations of these ancient documents which display no doubt
about the accuracy of the modern terms they offer as translations of
the old.

Eric Stevens


text:
Eric Stevens <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Eric,


subject: Re: Homeopathic Remedy Ruta 6 selectively induces cell death in brain cancer cells

text:
David Wright wrote:

What I explained was the origin of the "future telling from stars"
business.  Nomenclature changes all over time and place.

The basic point was that a lot of people don't start
following something unless there is something real
to it.

Now the something real may later on turn out to be
something insignificant.  But it still was real at
the time it gained popularity.

The particular god-mask that a tribe uses, may turn out
to be simply the most scary one they found, which
was perhaps very useful in tribal warfare of the time.

But things don't just happen without any reason altogether.
Superstitions tend to have some basis in fact, that later
on gets completely forgotten.  Circumcision perhaps
originated because of some disease that once was
rampant in dry areas of the world, but is now forgotten.
The caste system of India perhaps originated because
it made sense for teaching children the occupation of
their parents from early childhood, before other
educational institutions had evolved.

That was the relevance of explaining what happened
in astrology thousands of years ago, as it's a popular
and valid example of "look, so many people are wrong".

That's why I doubt that homeopathy has no remedies
that work.  While a lot of them certainly don't work (for
it has remedies for everything from myopia to
male pattern baldness, with no evidence of success
otherwise these would have been big news on the
internet), many of them have to work to have provided
it with its initial success.


text:
Forgive me for saying so, but the below is one of the most convoluted and
self serving and working backwards to make a point set of logic one could
imagine. Whatever the reason that it started and whatever the motivation,
including the placebo effect that people continue to use the products, at
present homopathology can not present a research scientific basis for its
truth claims.  That is the bottom line on the question and there it
remains
until and unless they can demonstrate to the contrary.

"That's why I doubt that homeopathy has no remedies that work.  While a
lot
of them certainly don't work (for it has remedies for everything from
myopia to male pattern baldness, with no evidence of success otherwise
these would have been big news on the internet), many of them have to work
to have provided it with its initial success."


author: JohnDoe

subject:
Re: Homeopathic Remedy Ruta 6 selectively induces cell death in brain
 cancer cells

text:
[email] wrote:

We see people getting fooled everyday by things were there's nothing
real to it.

Pyramid schemes for instance have never been 'real' but they still pop
up every now and then.

That would be 'some' superstitions at most.

The point is that astrology is still popular *today*. We're not talking
about the past here.

Homeopathy has no remedies that work (and never had either).
At the time of it's conception, homeopathy was better than other
treatments, since other treatments (such as purging and bloodletting)
did much more damage than good, so much damage in fact, that in many
cases doing nothing yielded better results. And that is exactly what
homeopathy does, nothing. Nowadays of course, medicine has progressed
and that situation has changed.

See above.....


author: Pizza Girl.

text:
Can you give us some of your personal experiences with homeopathics?

BTW: Logic one doesn't imagine anything and neither does logic zero.

<[email]> wrote in message
news:4338127e$0$280$[email]...
Forgive me for saying so, but the below is one of the most convoluted and
self serving and working backwards to make a point set of logic one could
imagine. Whatever the reason that it started and whatever the motivation,
including the placebo effect that people continue to use the products, at
present homopathology can not present a research scientific basis for its
truth claims.  That is the bottom line on the question and there it
remains
until and unless they can demonstrate to the contrary.

"That's why I doubt that homeopathy has no remedies that work.  While a
lot
of them certainly don't work (for it has remedies for everything from
myopia to male pattern baldness, with no evidence of success otherwise
these would have been big news on the internet), many of them have to work
to have provided it with its initial success."


text:
"Can you give us some of your personal experiences with homeopathics?"

No, neither can I give you my experience with ufo encounters.


author: David Wright

text:
In article <[email]>,
cathyb <[email]> wrote:

Testimonials, dear, testimonials.  Two people I knew (who didn't know
each other) had recommended this homeopath.  So, I went to see him.
Among other things, he swung a pendulum over the materia medica to
help him with his prescription.

The problem I was trying to treat (and I still am) is chronic nasal
congestion and drainage.  Ironically enough, as I was leaving the
office and going back to my car, I noticed that my nose was pretty
clear, and thought maybe I was onto something, but it turned out to be
the onset of a cold (this has happened to me at other times -- clear,
then wham, the cold hits me).

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
     "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                 -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth


text:
Well then why are you pretending to be such an expert on something you have
never experienced.

You are just preaching to the devil. Trying to tell people using them
successfully for 100 of years they don't work.

<[email]> wrote in message
news:43388cc6$0$279$[email]...
"Can you give us some of your personal experiences with homeopathics?"

No, neither can I give you my experience with ufo encounters.


text:
"Well then why are you pretending to be such an expert on something you
have never experienced.

You are just preaching to the devil. Trying to tell people using them
successfully for 100 of years they don't work."

No pretense, just following through with the direction that was obvious
when you asked the original question, happy to be your straight man in the
joke.  If I'm a missionary to the devil, what does that make you? Most
things that are obviously lousy science, in this case not even that, don't
require one experience it to know their folly.  Some traditional indian,
as
in india, "medicine" says drinking urine and eating dung will fix what
ails
you.  If you haven't experienced it can you say it doesn't work?


text:
In article <1127855627.f791f6dd87fd8ee6ac13af934bd8820e@teranews>,
Pizza Girl. <[email]> wrote:

I've tried a homeopathic remedy (prescribed for me by a homeopath, I
might add), and it didn't do a damn thing for me.  Nat mur 20C, I
think it was.

So up yours, Pizza Face.

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
     "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                 -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth


text:
Are you recommending these urine and dung as therapies and what are your
resources for doing so?

This is not a good analogy for therapies that have worked, worked well, and
worked where many medications have failed for many ailments. Homeopathics
have proven themselves over and over. In Europe Homeopathics are more the
commonplace than allopathic poisons. They could argue that your junk doesn't
work by the same type of arguments you use.

 I remember these same arguments from your same crowd thirty years ago that
herbal preparations were all hoax and quackery. Your allopathic, so-called
"scientific" methods are only 30-40 years behind. Science evolves and
corrects itself. This means sometimes it is incorrect and this is provided
for in real scientific techniques

<[email]> wrote in message
news:4339cb18$0$281$[email]...
"Well then why are you pretending to be such an expert on something you
have never experienced.

You are just preaching to the devil. Trying to tell people using them
successfully for 100 of years they don't work."

No pretense, just following through with the direction that was obvious
when you asked the original question, happy to be your straight man in the
joke.  If I'm a missionary to the devil, what does that make you? Most
things that are obviously lousy science, in this case not even that, don't
require one experience it to know their folly.  Some traditional indian,
as
in india, "medicine" says drinking urine and eating dung will fix what
ails
you.  If you haven't experienced it can you say it doesn't work?


text:
Allopathic medicine can't cure ignorance or pessimism  either.

"David Wright" <[email]> wrote in message
news:dYo_e.433$[email]...
In article <1127855627.f791f6dd87fd8ee6ac13af934bd8820e@teranews>,
Pizza Girl. <[email]> wrote:

I've tried a homeopathic remedy (prescribed for me by a homeopath, I
might add), and it didn't do a damn thing for me.  Nat mur 20C, I
think it was.

So up yours, Pizza Face.

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
     "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                 -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth