author: Organic Food Rules

subject: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Rachel News-Hazards of GE Foods

Part One
RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH NEWS #716 .
January 17, 2001
HEADLINES
BIOTECH: THE BASICS, PART 1

BIOTECH: THE BASICS, PART 1
by Rachel Massey*

Genetic engineering is the process by which genes are altered and
transferred artificially from one organism to another. Genes,
which are made of DNA, contain the instructions according to
which cells produce proteins; proteins in turn form the basis for
most of a cell's functions. Genetic engineering makes it possible
to mix genetic material between organisms that could never breed
with each other. It allows people to take genes from one species,
such as a flounder, and insert them into another species, such as
a tomato -- thus, for example, creating a tomato that has some of
the characteristics of a fish.

Starting in the 1980s and accelerating rapidly in the past
decade, companies have begun using genetic engineering to insert
foreign genes into many crops, including important foods such as
corn and soybeans.[1] Just in the past few years, genetically
engineered ingredients have begun appearing in many foods in U.S.
supermarkets; they have been detected in processed foods such as
infant formulas, drink mixes, and taco shells, to name a few
examples.[2] These foods are not labeled, so consumers have no
way to know when they are eating genetically engineered food.

Genetic engineering is an extremely powerful technology whose
mechanisms are not fully understood even by those who do the
basic scientific work. In this series, we will review the main
problems that have been identified with genetically engineered
crops.[3]

Most genetically engineered crops planted worldwide are designed
either to survive exposure to certain herbicides or to kill
certain insects. Herbicide tolerant crops accounted for 71% of
the acreage planted with genetically engineered crops in 1998 and
1999, and crops designed to kill insects (or designed both to
kill insects AND to withstand herbicides) accounted for most of
the remaining acreage. A small proportion (under 1%) of
genetically engineered crops planted in 1998 and 1999 were
designed to resist infection by certain viruses.[4]

Genetically engineered herbicide-tolerant crops are able to
survive applications of herbicides that would ordinarily kill
them. The U.S. food supply currently includes products made from
genetically engineered herbicide-tolerant crops including
"Roundup Ready" canola, corn, and soybeans which are engineered
to withstand applications of Monsanto's Roundup (active
ingredient, glyphosate), as well as crops engineered to survive
exposure to other herbicides.[1]

Genetically engineered pest-resistant (or pesticidal) crops are
toxic to insects that eat them. For example, corn can be
engineered to kill the European corn borer, an insect in the
order lepidoptera (the category that includes butterflies and
moths). This is accomplished by adding genetic material derived
from a soil bacterium, BACILLUS THURINGIENSIS (Bt), to the
genetic code of the corn. BACILLUS THURINGIENSIS naturally
produces a protein toxic to some insects, and organic farmers
sometimes spray Bt on their crops as a natural pesticide. In
genetically engineered "Bt corn," every cell of the corn plant
produces the toxin ordinarily found only in the bacterium.

Unfortunately, genetically engineered crops can have adverse
effects on human health and on ecosystems. And by failing to test
or regulate genetically engineered crops adequately, the U.S.
government has allowed corporations to introduce unfamiliar
substances into our food supply without any systematic safety
checks.

Here are some of the reasons why we might not want to eat
genetically engineered crops:

** Ordinary, familiar foods can become allergenic through the
addition of foreign genes.

Genetic engineering can introduce a known or unknown allergen
into a food that previously did not contain it. For example, a
soybean engineered to contain genes from a brazil nut was found
to produce allergic reactions in blood serum of individuals with
nut allergies. (See REHN #638.) Allergic reactions to nuts can be
serious and even fatal. Researchers were able to identify the
danger in this particular case because nut allergies are common
and it was possible to conduct proper tests on blood serum from
allergic individuals. In other cases, testing for allergenic
potential can be much more difficult. When genetic engineering
causes a familiar food to start producing a substance previously
not present in the human food supply, it is impossible to know
who may have an allergic reaction.

** Genetic engineering has the potential to make ordinary,
familiar foods become toxic.

In some cases, new characteristics introduced intentionally may
create toxicity. The Bt toxin as it appears in the bacteria that
produce it naturally is considered relatively safe for humans. In
these bacteria, the toxin exists in a "protoxin" form, which
becomes dangerous to insects only after it has been shortened, or
"activated," in the insect's digestive system. In contrast, some
genetically engineered Bt crops produce the toxin in its
activated form, which previously only appeared inside the
digestive systems of certain insects.[5] Humans have little
experience with exposure to this form of the toxin. Furthermore,
in the past humans have had no opportunity or reason to ingest
any form of the Bt toxin in large quantities. When the Bt toxin
is incorporated into our common foods, we are exposed each time
we eat those foods.[6, pgs. 64-65.] And of course, a pesticide
engineered into every cell of a food source cannot simply be
washed off before a meal.

Toxicity can also result from characteristics introduced
unintentionally. For example, a plant that ordinarily produces
high amounts of a toxin in its leaves and low amounts in its
fruit could unexpectedly begin to concentrate the toxin in its
fruit after addition of a new gene. (See REHN #696.)

Unpleasant surprises of this sort can result from our ignorance
about exactly how a foreign gene has been incorporated into the
engineered cell. Foreign genes can be added to cells by various
methods; among other options, they can be blasted into cells
using a "gene gun," or a virus or bacterium can be used to carry
them into the target cells.[7] The "genetic engineer" who sets
this process in motion does not actually control where the new
genes end up in the genetic code of the target organism. The
"engineer" essentially inserts the genes at a random, unknown
location in the cell's existing DNA. These newly-inserted genes
may sometimes end up in the middle of existing genetic
instructions, and may disrupt those instructions.

A foreign gene could, for example, be inserted in the middle of
an existing gene that instructs a plant to shut off production of
a toxin in its fruit. The foreign gene could disrupt the
functioning of this existing gene, causing the plant to produce
abnormal levels of the toxin in its fruit. This phenomenon is
known as "insertional mutagenesis" -- unpredictable changes
resulting from the position in which a new gene is inserted.[8]
Genetic engineering can also introduce unexpected new toxicity in
food through a well-known phenomenon known as pleiotropy, in
which one gene affects multiple characteristics of an organism.
(See REHN #685.)

** Genetically engineered crops can indirectly promote the
development of antibiotic resistance, making it difficult or
impossible to treat common human diseases.

Whatever method is used to introduce foreign genes into a target
cell, it only works some of the time, so the "genetic engineer"
needs a way to identify those cells that have successfully taken
up the foreign genes. One way to identify these cells is to
attach a gene for antibiotic resistance to the gene intended for
insertion. After attempting to introduce the foreign genes, the
"engineer" can treat the mass of cells with an antibiotic. Only
those cells that have incorporated the new genes survive, because
they are now resistant to antibiotics.

of this plant contains the newly introduced genes, including the
gene for antibiotic resistance. Once in the food chain, in some
cases these genes could be taken up by and incorporated into the
genetic material of bacteria living in human or animal digestive
systems. A 1999 study published in APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL
MICROBIOLOGY found evidence supporting the view that bacteria in
the human mouth could potentially take up antibiotic resistance
genes released from food.[9] Antibiotic resistance among
disease-causing bacteria is already a major threat to public
health; due to the excessive use of antibiotics in medical
treatment and in agriculture, we are losing the ability to treat
life-threatening diseases such as pneumonia, tuberculosis, and
salmonella.[10] (See REHN #402.) By putting antibiotic resistance
genes into our food, we may be increasing the public health
problem even further.

The British Medical Association, the leading association of
doctors in Britain, urged an end to the use of antibiotic
resistance genes in genetically engineered crops in a 1999
report. "There should be a ban on the use of antibiotic
resistance marker genes in GM [genetically modified] food, as the
risk to human health from antibiotic resistance developing in
micro-organisms is one of the major public health threats that
will be faced in the 21st Century. The risk that antibiotic
resistance may be passed on to bacteria affecting human beings,
through marker genes in the food chain, is one that cannot at
present be ruled out," the Association said.[11]

To be continued.

==========

*Rachel Massey is a consultant to Environmental Research
Foundation.

[1] Union of Concerned Scientists, "Foods on the Market,"
available at http://www.ucsusa.org. Choose "biotechnology" in the
bar at the bottom of the screen, then click on "Foods on the
Market."

[2] Consumers Union, "CONSUMER REPORTS: Genetically Engineered
Foods in Your Shopping Cart," Press Release, August 23, 1999.
Available at http://www.consumersunion.org/food/gefny999.htm.

[3] For one recent overview, see Environmental Media Services
(EMS), REPORTERS' GUIDE: GENETIC ENGINEERING IN AGRICULTURE,
Edition 1 (October 2000), available from EMS, Washington, D.C.,
(202) 463-6670 or at http://www.ems.org. Also see Pesticide
Action Network North America (PANNA), "Genetically Engineered
Crops and Foods: Online Presentation," available at
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources/geTutorial.html.

[4] Clive James, "Global Review of Commercialized Transgenic
Crops: 1999" ISAAA BRIEFS No. 12: Preview, produced by
International Service for the Acquisition of Agri-Biotech
Applications (ISAAA). Available at
http://www.isaaa.org/Global%20Review%201999/briefs12cj.htm.

[5] See Michael Hansen, "Potential Environmental and Human Health
Problems Associated with Genetically Engineered Food."
Presentation delivered at CREA International Seminar on
Transgenic Products, Curitiba, Brazil, October 11, 1999.
Available from Consumer Policy Institute, Yonkers, N.Y.:
914-378-2455.

[6] National Research Council, GENETICALLY MODIFIED
PEST-PROTECTED PLANTS: SCIENCE AND REGULATION (Washington, D.C.:
National Academy of Sciences, 2000). ISBN 0309069300.

[7] Union of Concerned Scientists, "Fact Sheet: Genetic
Engineering Techniques." Available at http://www.ucsusa.org.
Choose "biotechnology" in the bar at the bottom of the screen,
then click on "Genetic Engineering Techniques."

[8] See Food and Drug Administration, "Premarket Notice
Concerning Bioengineered Foods," FEDERAL REGISTER Vol. 66, No. 12
(January 18, 2001), pg. 4710.

[9] Derry K. Mercer and others, "Fate of Free DNA and
Transformation of the Oral Bacterium STREPTOCOCCUS GORDONII DL1
by Plasmid DNA in Human Saliva," APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL
MICROBIOLOGY Vol. 65, No. 1 (January 1999), pgs. 6-10.

[10] See World Health Organization (WHO), OVERCOMING
ANTIMICROBIAL RESISTANCE (Geneva, Switzerland: World Health
Organization, 2000). Available at
http://www.who.int/infectious-disease-report/2000/.

[11] British Medical Association Board of Science and Education,
"The Impact of Genetic Modification on Agriculture, Food and
Health -- An Interim Statement," May 1999. Summary statement
available at http://www.bma.org.uk/public/science/genmod.htm.

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Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/


author: George Baxter

subject: Re: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Most of the original posting is verifably untrue. Repeating old untruths
does not make them true.

If you want the scienfically verifed truth, have a look at
www.probiotech.fsnet.co.uk

It is an idependent site, not associated with any biotech company in any
way.

A few examples of the lies and the actual truth follow.

There is not a sinlge piece of evidence to show that gmo does cause
harm. Greenpeace have been looking for 10 years and they cannot cite
any. If anyone had the evidence they would, and also be trumpeting all
over the world. They have not.

The tests really happened. The demonstrate that allergens can be
transferred. But it hides the reality that the scientist and the
regulatory bodies are fully aware of that. That is why all foodstuffs
have to be subject to allergenicity tests. There are currently over 9000
known allergens. The foods are tested to ensure no accidental allergens
or toxins are produced.

The whole item drones on in a specultive way, not a factual way. You can
argue that any new combination ( yoghurt and cornflakes and strawberries
say ) have never been fully and extensively tested.


author: Jim Webster

subject: Re: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Amos Keppler wrote in message <[email]>...

nothing much but a collection of links to secondary and tertiary sources,
most of which merely rehash the same old news that has done the rounds so
often it has grown a beard

Jim Webster

We worship the inexorable god known as Dangott.
 Strangers are automatically heretics, and so are fed to the sacred apes.


subject: Re: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Amos Keppler wrote

oppressive public or private government.

Would you care to cite the lies I am supposed to be making?


author: Amos Keppler

subject: Re: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Jim Webster wrote:

 You're lying.

 Another post by a thorughly dishonest person

 Amos


subject: Re: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Amos Keppler wrote:
I agree with Jim. Repeating misinformation does not make it true.


subject: Re: Hazards of GE Foods - Part One

text:
Amos Keppler wrote in message <[email]>...

and you will of course provide evidence....

Jim Webster

We worship the inexorable god known as Dangott.
 Strangers are automatically heretics, and so are fed to the sacred apes.


author: [redacted]

subject: Lyme & cranial nerves

text:
Does anyone know of any articles discussing the effect of Lyme with
regard to cranial nerves.  I'm having trouble with the fifth cranial
nerves and while my osteopath is helping relieve the symptoms he is
clueless about whats going on.  Thanks

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


author: Kathleen

subject: Re: Lyme & cranial nerves

text:
[email] wrote:

http://igm-02.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/IGM_robot.pl?search=Subject=Lyme+OR+Subject=Borrelia+AND+Subject=cranial&datafile=MEDLINE

Main Entry: mononeuritis mul.ti.plex
Pronunciation: -'m&l-ti-"pleks
Function: noun
: neuritis that affects several separate nerves --
called also mononeuropathy multiplex

http://igm-02.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/IGM_robot.pl?search=Author+Name=Philipp+MT+AND+Subject=Multiplex&datafile=MEDLINE


author: Frank de Groot

subject: Re: Lyme & cranial nerves

text:
Of course osteopaths haven't got a clue about what's going on.
They're osteopaths.

Franciscus

<[email]> schreef in bericht
news:8tajgt$ftk$[email]...


author: Karvey

subject: Re: Lyme & cranial nerves

text:
In article <8tbabn$32e$[email]>, "Frank de Groot"
<[email]> writes:

Our LLMD is actually an LLDO and is one of the best!

He also knows a lot about the cranial nerves, how LD affects them and is
qualified to do trigger point injections to provide temporary relief of some
headaches.

So, how about cranking down your anger a notch or two?
Spare us, please.

Karvey


subject: Re: Lyme & cranial nerves

text:
In article <8tbabn$32e$[email]>,
  "Frank de Groot" <[email]> wrote:

If your ever in the Sierra foothills above Sacramento, CA, you'll have
to change your tune, if you want to get treated for LD.  The only LLMD
in the area is an Osteopath.  By the way in CA they are considered to
be MD's.

Mike

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


subject: Re: Lyme & cranial nerves

text:
I do not whish to be treated for anything by any MD any more.
I have cancelled my health insurance.

I would prefer to die an agonizing and miserable death, to seing any MD ever
again.
Those guys are killing more patients than they are curing.
The mere fact that 99.99999% does not support Dr. B is proof that they're
ignorant
malicious hypocrits.

Lazy, cotton-picking good-for-nothing greedy half-wit numbskull quacks,
that's
what they are.  And then I'm giving them a compliment.

F


author: Alias

subject: Re: Scam

text:
"SteveS" <[email]> wrote

: No takers yet???

I forgot to cross post it to club Scmed. How silly of me.

: I can't resist any longer.
: What is a bum like yours doing on the internet?
:
: Love,
: Steve

Got me. What?

Alias
:
:
: "Alias" <[email]> wrote

: >  Generally, I hate the warnings that get sent around, but I
: >  have to admit that this one is important.
: >  Please protect everyone you know by
: >  sending this to your entire email list.
: >
: >  If a man comes to your front door and says he is conducting
: >  a survey and asks you to show him your bum,
: >  do NOT show him your bum.
: > This  is a scam - he only wants to see your bum.
: >
: >  I wish I'd got this yesterday. I feel so stupid and cheap.
: >
: > Alias
: >
: >
:
:


author: SteveS

subject: Re: Scam

text:
Saying hello, of course.
How YOU doin?
Had a pcr lately?

"Alias" <knownloved&[email]> wrote in message
news:%dKwd.4802$[email]...


subject: Re: Scam

text:
"SteveS" <[email]> wrote

: Saying hello, of course.

Hi

: How YOU doin?

Great, and you?

: Had a pcr lately?

What's a "pcr"?

Alias
:
:
:
: "Alias" <knownloved&[email]> wrote in message
: news:%dKwd.4802$[email]...
: >
: > "SteveS" <[email]> wrote
: >
: > : No takers yet???
: >
: > I forgot to cross post it to club Scmed. How silly of me.
: >
: >
: > : I can't resist any longer.
: > : What is a bum like yours doing on the internet?
: > :
: > : Love,
: > : Steve
: >
: > Got me. What?
: >
: > Alias
: > :
: > :
: > : "Alias" <[email]> wrote
: >
: > : >  Generally, I hate the warnings that get sent around, but I
: > : >  have to admit that this one is important.
: > : >  Please protect everyone you know by
: > : >  sending this to your entire email list.
: > : >
: > : >  If a man comes to your front door and says he is conducting
: > : >  a survey and asks you to show him your bum,
: > : >  do NOT show him your bum.
: > : > This  is a scam - he only wants to see your bum.
: > : >
: > : >  I wish I'd got this yesterday. I feel so stupid and cheap.
: > : >
: > : > Alias
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:


subject: Re: Scam

text:
I'm ok, Cody.
pcr is a method of Viral Count.

Steve

"Alias" <knownloved&[email]> wrote in message
news:IhLwd.5407$[email]...


subject: Re: Scam

text:
After Christmas I go again for blood work and a scan and then the biopsy.

Alias

"SteveS" <[email]> wrote in message
news:L%kxd.18139$[email]...
: I'm ok, Cody.
: pcr is a method of Viral Count.
:
: Steve
:
: "Alias" <knownloved&[email]> wrote in message
: news:IhLwd.5407$[email]...
: >
: > "SteveS" <[email]> wrote
: >
: > : Saying hello, of course.
: >
: > Hi
: >
: > : How YOU doin?
: >
: > Great, and you?
: >
: > : Had a pcr lately?
: >
: > What's a "pcr"?
: >
: > Alias
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : "Alias" <knownloved&[email]> wrote in message
: > : news:%dKwd.4802$[email]...
: > : >
: > : > "SteveS" <[email]> wrote
: > : >
: > : > : No takers yet???
: > : >
: > : > I forgot to cross post it to club Scmed. How silly of me.
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > : I can't resist any longer.
: > : > : What is a bum like yours doing on the internet?
: > : > :
: > : > : Love,
: > : > : Steve
: > : >
: > : > Got me. What?
: > : >
: > : > Alias
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > : "Alias" <[email]> wrote
: > : >
: > : > : >  Generally, I hate the warnings that get sent around, but I
: > : > : >  have to admit that this one is important.
: > : > : >  Please protect everyone you know by
: > : > : >  sending this to your entire email list.
: > : > : >
: > : > : >  If a man comes to your front door and says he is conducting
: > : > : >  a survey and asks you to show him your bum,
: > : > : >  do NOT show him your bum.
: > : > : > This  is a scam - he only wants to see your bum.
: > : > : >
: > : > : >  I wish I'd got this yesterday. I feel so stupid and cheap.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Alias
: > : > : >
: > : > : >
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:


subject: Re: Scam

text:
Well Cody... best of luck in all three.
Sorry, but I have some advice for you.
Practice when you're cold.
Practice when you're hot.
Practice when you're angry.
Practice when you're not.

Get your mind clear.
And please stop stirring up shitstorms.
As a benefit for all beings.

Steve

"Alias" <&known&loved&[email]> wrote in message
news:GGlxd.5022$[email]...


author: Fred Nurk

subject: Graph question

text:
Victoria Jones wants to construct a time capsule in which to bury some of
her treasures. The time capsule will be a right circular cylinder of
height h cm, and radius r cm, with hemispherical caps of radius r cm on
each end.
Let the total volume of the capsule be V cm^3.

a) Express V in terms of r and h.
V = V_sphere + V_cylinder
  = 4/3 * pi*r^3 + pi*r^2*h

If the total volume of the capsule is 8000 cm^3, then it can be shown
that h = 8000/(pi * r^2)  - 4r/3.

b) The material for the cylindrical part of the capsule costs 2 cents per
cm2 of surface. The material for the hemispherical caps costs 3 cents per
cm^2 of surface. (The surface area of a sphere of radius r is 4*pi*r^2.)
Find an expression for C cents, the total cost of the materials for the
capsule, in terms of r.

C = 3 * 4*pi*r^2 + 2 * 2pi*r*h
  = 20pi*r^2 / 3 + 32000 / r

Is this correct? It looks too hard for me to find the asymptotes
(required below), given what the course currently covers.

d) Sketch the graph of C over the appropriate domain on the axes below.
Label any horizontal or vertical asymptotes with their equations. (You
are not required to show the coordinates of any turning point.)

Fred


subject: Re: Graph question

text:
William Elliot wrote:

OK, thanks everyone. I can sketch it now.

Fred


author: William Elliot

subject: Re: Graph question

text:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010, Philippe 92 wrote:

No.  There's another as r -> oo, h -> -4r/3.


author: Gerry Myerson

subject: Re: Graph question

text:
In article <0fAko.6639$[email]>,
 Fred Nurk <[email]> wrote:

I don't know, but...

You get vertical asymptotes at values of r where C is not defined,
which generally means when they would make you divide by zero.
Which values of r do that?

Horizontal asymptotes are just a question of what happens
as r goes to (plus-or-minus) infinity; does C approach a limit?


subject: Re: Graph question

text:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010, Fred Nurk wrote:

There's only a vertical asymptote at 0.

The graph should make it easy to see that.


author: Virgil

subject: Re: Graph question

text:
In article <[email]>,
 William Elliot <[email]> wrote:

That is not a VERTICAL asymptote, but a diagonal or skewed one.

The skew line to which the curve is asymptotic is h = -4/3*x, which is
clearly not vertical.


author: Philippe 92

subject: Re: Graph question

text:
William Elliot wrote :

Are you shure ?
What is the limit of h + 4r/3 when r -> infinity ?
What kind of curve has equation h + 4r/3 = 0 ?

Regards.


subject: Re: Graph question

text:
Virgil wrote :

Oops.

I didn't carefully read what Fred Nurk wrote :

and not just "asymptotes" :-(

Regards.


subject: PROG./DICE FORMULA

text:
Does anyone know where i can FTP a fast/easy prog to graph fractals? one for
windoze would be nice.  I was also wondering if anyone knew the fromula for the
fractal of the numbers that are the result of the rolls of dice.  how many dice
should i use? how many times should i roll them? if anyone knows where i might
be able to find this info (i've reseached quite extensively, i need a specific
source, not just a Lib.) if you don't know it offhand. i would prefer an e-mail
response... THANXS
OMUCH in advance... |)
Nate Daiger
[email]


author: MICHAEL E GIBSON

subject: Re: PROG./DICE FORMULA

text:
[email] wrote:
: Does anyone know where i can FTP a fast/easy prog to graph fractals? one for
: windoze would be nice.  I was also wondering if anyone knew the fromula for the
: fractal of the numbers that are the result of the rolls of dice.  how many dice
: should i use? how many times should i roll them? if anyone knows where i might
: be able to find this info (i've reseached quite extensively, i need a specific
: source, not just a Lib.) if you don't know it offhand. i would prefer an e-mail
: response... THANXS

Isn't dice rolling a pretty much random process?  Although alot of
fractals are based on randomness, the numbers the result from the rolling
of dice are pretty much evenly spread, and don't have any fractal patterns.

If you are doing a science project, I would suggest that you do something
that has research already done.

I might suggest that you come up with some recursive replacement curve
(like the koch curve), and explore the properties.  Find the fractal
dimension, write a computer program to display it, etc, etc, etc.


author: Richard Ottolini

subject: Re: PROG./DICE FORMULA

text:
In article <39s3oc$[email]>,
MICHAEL E GIBSON <[email]> wrote:

Integrate such a random process and graph the result.
You'll see something familar :-)
To keep it simple, just work with one bit, e.g. heads of a coin toss.


author: Lysander

subject: Re: Some Basics on AGW

text:
On Dec 26, 11:59 am, Dan Bloomquist <[email]> wrote:

Yes I did you snipped.

No you are snipping it because Simmons is unqualified to make his
statements. He is an investment banker who works with oil companies
and does not have the knowledge to do the estimates he claims to have
done. A quick google on his name shows he is an investment banker in
Houston who deals with oil companies. Not a geologist, not an expert
in estimating how much oil is in oil wells in any way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simmons_%26_Company_International
Simmons & Company International is a private investment bank based in
Houston, Texas that specializes in energy research, trading, and
capital structuring. It was founded in 1974 by Matthew Simmons who was
motivated by the 1973 energy crisis to create an investment banking
firm catering to oil companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Simmons
Matthew R. Simmons, chairman and CEO of Simmons & Company
International, is a prominent oil-industry insider[citation needed]
and one of the world's leading experts on the topic of peak oil.
Simmons was motivated by the 1973 energy crisis to create an
investment banking firm catering to oil companies. In his previous
capacity, he served as energy adviser to U.S. President George W.
Bush.

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/
Simmons & Company is the only independent investment bank specializing
in the entire spectrum of the energy industry.

Simmons is an investment banker
http://www.energybulletin.net/17555.html
His firm has completed for its clients' investment-banking projects
that have valued over $65 billion.

Again I ask why would an investment banker make up a scare on oil?
What does he have to gain?

Gee maybe high oil stock prices and tons of investment banking fees.
Maybe tons of fees on selling options for oil companies because people
believe the price will continue to skyrocket.

Simmons is a sham and it is all about creating a scare to make profits
but manipulating expectations. He is an investment banker not a
geologist and has no expertise to determine how much oil Saudi has. He
has no access to the Saudi oil reports. The King keeps those secret.

Oh but I did in the post before that. You have no response to it so
you are concentrating on a side issue.


author: Dan Bloomquist

subject: Re: Some Basics on AGW

text:
Lysander wrote:

No you snipped.

Now I'm snipping. You have no business busting the balls of an author
who's book you have not read. The guy consulted with geologists,
including the ones that were there....

You are certifiably bonkers.


subject: One moment this one moment that

text:
Bush tells the world that the world enemy now sees that Saddam got the
justice that he denied from his people, then Saddam's half brother is
hanged, and his head rips off accidentally during the hanging.

A Texas man talks about Democracy in regards to hangings, that are
tasty sights to Cannibals. An Iraq is being erected as a model
Democracy to the whole Arab world, kicked off with hanging those that
this Texas man couldn't stand and raged the world for revenge against
for the crimes of Osama. Osama did not attack with the whole Arab
world, as Timothy McVeigh did not attack with the whole American world.
Bush calls it freedom, and now listens to all phone calls in the world.
Bush declared a mission of Capitalism in the Arab world, led by a model
Iraq, Bush said this mission may last for generations. Bush wants an
Iraq that is better than what he sees over there, he is the Arab
expert.

Arabs now hate Americans, while in the past they liked Americans, Bush
actions led to discrimination, racism, by a racist who only knows
sentiment and eye for eye as means of communication, as a radical
fundamentalist of the Soviet Union of Capitalism. A retard prison
sadist mentality basically, awarded crimes against humanity, and called
a genius by Tony Blair. You know many people called Hitler a genius.


subject: Re: One moment this one moment that

text:
Germans are not operating in the USA, the USA operates in Germany
and in 109 other countries. It is a unilateral dictatorship, one
described
as the Soviet Union of Capitalism. An ideology embraced with a form of
a dictatorship and mafia power embraced in the federalistic mandation
as religion of a basic human need to make money. The Capitalist
Federalism,
the ancient imperialisms of wealth, the primitive daily brainwash
toward
a system of power, only in the old Soviet Union and today in the USA
a militarist pledge lives and feeds the mind with an eye-for-eye
mentality
of wars and regimes. Under God is what America envisions the Arab World
as federalism, united by Allah. An extremely primitive United States,
there is a level for something other than extremism. Its called
humanity,
a place now under FEARS for being repressed and politically annihilated
as a deserted of a higher cause. Jailed, ridiculed, a recipe for prison
abuse,
food for sadists who expect to see crying in jail.

Its the truth.


subject: Re: One moment this one moment that, a recipe of peace

text:
A recipe of peace, and lifetime dissidentry.

Eating discriminating pigs of power, preparing spices out of the KKK.
Mixing the bellies with paprika, emerges American food in the guts.
Jailing schwarzenegger for supremacy, executing Bush for unilateral
corruption. Sniffing but not biting the cooking until it is done.

A retarded American of power is in a barrel or two. His Soviet Union
of Capitalism is now flavored with Cannibal sauce, a masterpiece in
the making, and party awaiting.


text: I am not a human rights activist. I am a Cannibal. I eat people.


text:
There is a level. A level, that's all they need to know. That's why we
can eat them. As simple as that. Its low what we see, their power
will not make them kinder, more humaner. There is not much intelligence
left in the United States, those who do not want to be eaten try not to
vote for Bush. Our sicking planet, but one thing we know as Europeans.
To cook, to make marvelous achievements out of barbaric oinking pigs.

Go home, and feed yourself. Go home and rage the Capitalist War
in your nation whose world enemies will learn the will of the nation
that the job will be done and Iraq will have the future vision of the
President for the whole Arab world that needs to learn and pay the
dues as the dues are to paid. A mafia pigfuck breakfast special.
Go in peace, food.


text:
A president guilty of crimes against humanity, re-voted into power.
Very smart people. Saliva dripping, God gave us food. Cannibalism is
alive, last seen among white people a long time ago. 3000 years ago.
No, Attila the Hun ate people in the 5th century. Romans were eaten,
Romans described Attila as a man rolling his eyes around, cooking
around, and a cotere of wives, also Cannibals, sharing the dinner.
Attila choked on his dinner once. People said his nose was running
blood in his drunk sleep and he choked. It was just an overdose of
Roman pigs for dinner. Attila kicked all the Romans out. He ate them.
He was a lifetime dissident and peace activist. He wasn't really white.
He was like the mix of all kinds.


text:
Cannibals. Rolling eyes, crazy, eating barbarians (Romans), but called
the
King of barbarians. I think there is only one barbarian, the one like
the Jewish who warned Iran that Israel might use the nuclear weapons,
they are all the same, as Bush. The Soviet Union of Capitalism, and
the they are all the same. Food. The religious fanatics. Americans.
Jewish. Arabs. May the Huns eat you up. Only they are missing.


text:
Rolling eyes around. This iiiiis a dreeeeam American, you are having
a baaaaaad dreeeeam.


text:
To you its all liberals who are not with the mob, liverals, flip
floppers
who are not witrh the country and who don't pay the dues.

Remember all the people,
who didn't pay their dues,

ooooooh oooooooh oo oo ooooooooh,

Americans want their justice,
The Soviet Union of Capitalism,
A military in 110 countries,
And a vision of the mafia boss,

Remember all the people,
who didn't pay their dues,
Remember what they did,
Remember why they are flip floppers,
Remember that they are with the terrorists,

Remember all the people,
Who didn't want the war,

ooooooh oooooooh oo oo ooooooooh,

They are scums, liberals flip floppers,
They are with the world enemy,
They share no vision for a model Iraq,
in the whole Arab World,
They share no vision for America,
to erect Iraq that is better than all of them.

We are the world supremacists,
We are better than the rest,
We blackmail all Democrats thats true,
but its their fault that they are so much less.

Remember all the people,
Remembering what they did,
revenge, oooooooh oooh oooh.

Remember we are here to protect you,
Remember mafia is the best,
Our protection is for the Soviet,
The Soviets Union,

of Capitalism,

Our secret police is everywhere,
all phone calls are listened to in the world,
Remember all the rest.

We are the best. Fuck John Lennon. Fuck all liberals and flip floppers
who are not with this nation,
Arabs will see an Iraq as a model that will be better than what our
president sees over there. Racism, rulership, empire, vote for Bush or
die liar. Supremacy Rules!


text:
This song is called "our mafia is the best and you may die with the
rest,
a Republican contribute to John Lennon"


author: Stanislaw Sidor

subject: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
Is it possible to treat the Alpha station as launch platform for a lunar
trajectory or
for probes/spacecrafts targeted to Mars ?
Of course a beginning orbit close to the ecliptic would be the best, but how
to estimate needed energy and trajectory for Alpha(ISS) based launch to the
Moon
for example ?

(STS)


author: Douglas Ellison

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
A few points..

What's the point in stopping off at ISS on the way to the moon?
And stopping on the way back involved an enormous Delta V that would be
better avoided using a direct re-entry

Doug

"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9a9tq7$8li$[email]...
how
the


author: jeff findley

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> writes:

You've still got the Van Allen radiation belts to deal with.  If your
spacecraft has things like solar arrays and electronics (computers,
sensors, etc) on it, then you'll have to go to the time and expense to
build them to take the radiation dose.  Continuous exposure to
radiation does bad things to electronics.

Jeff


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> writes:

This is a bad idea.  If you do this, you'll subject your craft and the
crew to months of repeated passes through the Van-Allen radiation
belts.  Much better to go straight to earth and minimize the radiation
hazzard.

Jeff


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> writes:

If you want to fly by ISS at a *great* difference in velocity, maybe.
If you want to dock with ISS, this is not possible without using up
*obscene* amounts of fuel.  A pesky subject called orbital mechanics
gets in the way.  I took a very non-trivial 500 level course in
orbital mechanics in college, and it wasn't exactly cake walk (it was
one of those few classes that took up most of my time, yet I was happy
to earn a passing grade, because I'd actually learned something in the
class).

What do you mean "Maybe yes, maybe not"?  You can't argue with orbital
mechanics!

The answer is that it's technically possible, but it's simply not
practical.  Let's take a look at Apollo as and example (you can even
look at Zond, if you're interested in a non-American system).

Take a look at the Apollo/Saturn V stack.  Take a look at the size of
the third stage with was used for the TLI burn (the one that took them
from LEO to the moon).  Look up the fully fueled mass of the third
stage.  It's *huge* compared to the LEM/CSM (both in terms of size and
mass).  If you wanted to take something the size of the LEM/CSM (say,
your lunar shuttle) and get it back into LEO, it will take another
Saturn V third stage to get you from the moon back to LEO.

It's going to be more than non-trivial to arrange for an
infrastructure which would get something the size of a Saturn V third
stage into lunar orbit.  In fact, it's completely impractical.

Besides, what's the reason for a shuttle from ISS to the moon and
back?  Why do you want to stop at ISS?  What's the justification?
You'd better have a damn good one since heat shields and parachutes
(for a direct re-entry of your shuttle) are going to be *way* lighter
and cheaper than sending huge rocket stages to the moon, just so you
can do a "round trip" to ISS.

Of course, this discussion completely ignores the huge payload penalty
you pay from launching at KSC into the (high inclination) ISS orbit.
If you're planning on launching from KSC, you might as well launch
directly to the moon, so you don't pay this penalty.

In the end, it's not advantageous to stop at ISS if your destination
is the moon.  Of course, the reasons why you don't want to change
if you're on your way to the moon or on your way back, but it still
remains a bad idea.

Jeff


author: Bill Bonde

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
JF Mezei wrote:
Almost anything is possible with enough thrust.


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> writes:

In the proposed (Caltech) mission profile, the CRV stays in high earth
orbit, does it not?  Lowering its energy (to get it to ISS orbit),
then adding more energy to it to send it back to Mars is inefficient.
Even if you use aerobraking to lower the orbit to match that of ISS,
you've still lost that energy and must replace it by launching more
propellant.

ISS has nothing to offer a Mars mission CRV anyway.  The CRV will be
designed to operate for extremely long missions on its own, so what
does ISS offer?  Spare parts, consumables, and the like, can be
launched with the crew.

I tried to make this point in my earlier posts, but you seem to have
missed it.  Going to ISS doesn't seem to gain you anything.  Why do
you want to stop there in the first place?  It certainly wouldn't be
to save money, because it's going to cost you propellant (even if you
assume negligible cost of aerobraking, you've got to replace the
energy lost).  At current launch costs, propellant isn't cheap!

If you leave the CRV in high earth orbit, making a "pit stop" at ISS,
on your way to the CRV, buys you nothing (except for pesky payload
penalties to launch from KSC to ISS, then again to change your plane
to match that of the CRV.  What's the chance the CRV will arrive back
from Mars at just the right time to get it into the same plane as
ISS?

Jeff


author: JF Mezei

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
jeff findley wrote:

This is something I am curious about. I understand the principle of launching
at a precice time on earth to enter a specific orbital plane.

However, for a returning vehicle, lets say from Mars, can it enter any
inclination orbit upon returning by just aiming at a different point on the
edges/horizon of the earth ?

In a theoretical Mars-Earth mission that would stop at the ISS  how long
before arriving on earth would they start to have to aim the vehicle to the
right point ? Right from the start ? Halfway into the 4 month trip ? The week
before arriving on earth ?


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Douglas Ellison <[email]> wrote:

It may be possible to set up a 'science-shuttle' between Alpha and the Moon
similar to the Lunar Prospector probe for example.

Maybe yes, maybe not.

My question is, it is(technically) possible or not. If not, why ?

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news jeff findley <[email]> wrote:

Right, but I think that it's possible to proceed the aerobeaking procedure in
such a way to lower the first(and next too) orbit below the Van Allen belts
and next using the ion engine set up the orbit close to the ISS one.
That is my idea (?)

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news jeff findley <[email]> wrote:

I wrote about an aerobreaking technique some posts ago. Haven't you notice
them ?

No, but I try to find a nontrivial and useful solution based on the ISS.

What is interesting in Apollo or Zond  ?
Of course Zond (and Apollo too) was optimized for dual reentry, but I can't
see any more similar features.

Do not stop on the chemical propulsion system. We can use ion engines now and
it would be useful for my idea.

Look backward :)

My idea is to design a shuttle-science probe launched from the ISS to the
lunar trajectory and reuse it after long period aerobreaking near the Earth.
Of course the probe should have an ion engine powered by solar panels (hidden
during the aerobreaking).

That is the matter if we have to launch a probe from the Earth to the Moon. We
must choose low inclination trajectory close to the ecliptic, so this is a
technique optimal for chemical propulsion but for different kind I think no.

I'm agree with you if a chemical propulsion is taken into consideration.

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news jeff findley <[email]> wrote:

No, I do have noticed them, but I was concentrated on 'science-shuttle'
ISS<->Moon.

I prefer such mission profile where we can safe a sophisticated equipment for
re-use.
CRV may consist of two parts - crew capsule and service module which could be
re-used for next mission. Of course the ISS isn't the best solution for
servicing it, I know.

(STS)


author: Rand Simberg

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 16:58:24 -0400, in a place far, far away, JF Mezei
<[email]> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

Yes, it can enter any inclination, but it can't enter any *orbital
plane*.  There are an infinite number of orbital planes with a given
inclination.  To rendezvous with, say, ISS, it would have to enter an
orbit with the same inclination, and then go to a different altitude
to allow the ascending node to rotate around until they are coplanar
using differential nodal regression.  This could take day, weeks, or
months, depending on the altitude difference and how far off they
started.

Such a maneuver could be made very late in the trajectory, subject to
my comment above.

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subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
Stanislaw Sidor wrote:

Coming back is where the problem is. By the time you reach the vicinity of the
earth, the earth's gravity will have accelerated the vehicle so much that in
order to stay in orbit at the same altitude and same orbital plane as the ISS,
you'll need a lot of fuel to slow you down, or perform some form of
aerobraking manoeuver (still untested).

On the way back from the moon, the Apollo missions were decelerated by the atmosphere.

Question: at what speed did the Apollo modules reach the earth entry interface
? Shuttle does it in the vicinity of 17,500 mph, correct ?


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 15:32:05 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Sure, given enough propellant.  Many things are technically possible
that are not sensible (like the perennial question in s.s.p of sending
a Shuttle Orbiter to the Moon...).

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author: Alejandro Zuzek

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
Stanislaw Sidor wrote:

<snip>

Why retract the solar panels during aerobraking? Didn't MGS brake in
Mars atmosphere with its solar panels deployed? I also donï¿½t understand
why would one need shielding during the aerobraking process, as was
mentioned earlier in this thread.


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:10:25 GMT, in a place far, far away,
[email] (Rand Simberg) made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Just to be precise, I should amend that to "a given *non-zero*
inclination."  There is only one equatorial plane...

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subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:10:25 GMT, in a place far, far away,
[email] (Rand Simberg) made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

And actually, to expand further, it can't really even get to any
inclination-it is limited by the tilt of the earth's axis with respect
to the incoming spacecraft.  For example, if you were approaching the
earth from a pole, no matter where you aim on the horizon, you're
going to end up in a polar orbit.

If you're coming on a trajectory roughly in the ecliptic (which would
be the most likely, since it's the most propellant efficient for
interplanetary transfers) the only time that you'd have access to
*all* inclinations would be during the equinoxen.  Worst case, at the
solstices, you'd be unable to get to any orbit under 23 degrees (or
greater than 157 degrees).  Rest of the year would be somewhere in
between.

************************************************************************
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interglobal space lines  * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news JF Mezei <[email]> wrote:
Moon
the
ISS,

No. You are wrong. Look at the areobreaking procedure used in Mars Global
Surveyor.
It may take months. Why not, if we haven't to build another spacecraft(probe)
we may wait.

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

O.K. I'm not a man who wants to fly by the shuttle to the Moon ;-) but would
you
like to estimate how additional energy we must have to send a small probe
(500kg) to the Moon using as a starting point the ISS. What will be the
optimal trajectory ?

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Alejandro Zuzek <[email]> wrote:

... in order to save the time; to make more deep and efficient the
aerobreaking process.

(STS)


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
Rand Simberg wrote:

So, when the mars mission returns to earth, even if it doesn't slow down to
orbit and aims for an ocean, its choice of landing sites will be limited ?

Much has been said about the need to slow down significantly in onrder to
enter into a LEO orbit during a return trip from mars. Lets turn the question around:

Do we have technology today to build a re-entry vehicle that can widthstand
re-entry while travelling at the speed that such a vehicle would have attained
travelling from mars to earth ? If not, then aerobraking and additional fuel
will be required, at which point, slowing down to LEO might not be so ludricrous.


author: Greg D. Moore (Strider

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9aa1d6$ok4$[email]...
spacecraft(probe)

For crewed craft this is obviously no solution.  Besides the delay which
requires additional consumables, you have the very real issue of multiple
passes through the Van Allen radiation belts.  Not something you want to do.


author: Steven Kasow

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
In article <9aa1d6$ok4$[email]>,
Stanislaw Sidor <[email]> wrote:

	Aerobraking of that sort may be possible for an unmanned
craft, but is not practical for a manned one- the highly elliptical
orbits we are talking about, with very long periods, and very high
apogees, would take the craft through the Van Allen belts time and
time again.  This kind of radiation exposure would certainly endanger
any people on board, and could potentially harm electronics as
well. Apollo, for example, didn't carry enough shielding to be able to
linger in the Van Allen belts, but instead used trajectories that
travelled through them as quickly as possible, so as to minimize
exposure.

	cheers,

		Steven


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:35:38 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Compared to what?  A lower inclination?  If you're not picky about
where on the Moon you land, it's really not much more costly at
all--there's no preferred plane--you can even get there from a polar
orbit.

But there's no particular advantage to it either, and if instead
you're comparing it to an earth launch, it's quite a bit cheaper to do
it direct than to stop off in LEO--any LEO...

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subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:17:06 -0400, in a place far, far away, JF Mezei
<[email]> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

No, it can *land* anywhere it wants, by choosing the right trajectory
and timing of the approach.  Its choice of *LEO parking orbits* will
be limited.

Sure.  You don't need technology--just mass for ablation in the worst
case...

Velocity coming in from Mars (assuming a standard elliptical transfer)
is not much higher than that coming in from the Moon, or for that
matter, from Pluto.  They are all close to earth escape velocity.

I don't understand your statement.  Aerobraking *is* required.  But
stopping in LEO would require both aerobraking and propellant, whereas
a direct descent to the surface can be done with aerobraking alone.
Same aerobrake mass in both cases.

And unless you're very lucky with the timing, it will be almost
impossible to aerobrake directly into an ISS orbit.

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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Greg D. Moore (Strider) <[email]> wrote:

[about areobreaking near the Earth]

Yes, but I didn't take a manned craft into my consideration.
Areobreaking would be very useful technique for automated spacecraft used as a
'science shuttle' between the ISS and the Moon, I do think.

(STS)


author: Invid Fan

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
In article <%T%x6.28237$[email]>, Strider\
<[email]> wrote:

One could drop a crew capsule off, then have the rest of the ship
areobreak. Another crew capsule would then be sent up with the next
crew to the space station. Naturaly this makes more sense the larger
the station -> moon shuttle is.


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Steven Kasow <[email]> wrote:

Of course. Right, but please return to my initial question. How to launch an
automated spacecraft from the ISS to the lunar trajectory ?

... but automated spacecraft can take it (if Galileo can ... ).

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

would

Sorry, I haven't written about it ... comparing it to existing upper stages
and it's capabilities.

Yes, it is 'a bit' cheaper to do it once, but 10-20 times ?
A reusable Moon probe can be only depended on fuel (xenon for example) and it
seems to me that it would be cheaper to supply the probe with the gas on LEO
than to make another one.

(STS)


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
Rand Simberg wrote:

But it must approach the earth in a tangential so that its re-entry is "slow"
as opposed to straight down where G forces would be too great, correct ?

Is the philosophy of travel between 2 planets one of changing the altitude of
orbit around the sun or of direct travel between the two ? (in earth terms,
doing as the shuttle and soyuz do to get to ISS versus a direct vertical
ascent to the ISS ?)

I was using aerobraking in a context of slowing down the aircraft slightly
before either entering orbit or doing the full atmosphere entry interface.

But if you say that coming back from mars would result in a re-entry speed
that is similar to that when coming back from the moon, then the question is moot.


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
Stanislaw Sidor wrote:

What is the advantage of returning a unmanned spacecraft to the ISS instead of
returning it to earth ? Also, if a spacecraft (manned or unmanned) is equipped
to survive aerobraking, it is probably equipped with sufficient shielding to
survive total re-entry.

In my mind, the ISS would be a perfect staging area to assemble a mars ship.
Such a ship would be  assembled while berthed to the ISS, allowing ISS crews
to work inside as the ship grows. This would have the benefit of having access
to the various robotic arms for outside work, an airlock for EVAs, regular
supply runs (Progress and shuttle) and life support provided from day 1 from
the ISS until the ship had its life support modules. Also, a single reboost
would keep both the ISS and the new ship in orbit.


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:09:57 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Well, until you define a specific mission, and describe all the
assumptions and what you're comparing it to in similar detail, it's
hard to evaluate it

I see.  You lose on each mission, but you make it up in volume?

If that were the case, it would quickly pay for itself to establish a
platform at much lower inclination than ISS, because a) the ISS design
is not particularly suited to this mission and, b) it is very costly
to get to from earth, relative to lower inclinations.

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"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:17:37 -0400, in a place far, far away, JF Mezei
<[email]> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

Yes.

Ummmm, if I understand the question correctly, it is the former
(barring something like nuclear or antimatter propulsion).

It is slightly higher, but not enough so to unmoot the question.

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author: Eric Pederson

subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
How much advantage would there be to not having to lift the entire upper stage
back to LEO each time?

Would the following have any merit for lunar or planetary probes?
 - the reusable chemical upper stage+probe are sent out on a lunar free-return
    path using the upper stage engine+fuel.
 - the probe/payload separates and uses it's own engine for a final burn.
 - the upper stage returns and executes a series of aerobraking passes to a
     parking/collection orbit.
 - a new payload/probe + fuel is launched and mated to the upper stage.

If there is not some regular need for such a system, the costs of maintaining
the ability to use it may soon wipeout any savings.

The ISS is not vital to this system, since the shuttle or an automated system
could do the job just as well and in a better orbit.

Other propulsion systems might work, however:
Solar thermal would add the complications of folding/unfolding or replacing
the collectors each trip.
The PR hassles with aerobraking a fission reactor are not worth discussing.
Ion or magnetic systems might work for guidance thrusters, but do not
provide enough initial boost.

Other details such as single use fuel tanks, or a permanent high pressure
upper stage set and simple low pressure transfer tanks would depend on
the exact details of the system.

The portion to aerobrake would consist of the engine+tanks?+payload supports,
etc. with a simple rad-hardened guidance/control system.   Any radiation
sensitive payloads would have to use a capsule for a direct entry.

JF Mezei wrote:


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 16:31:59 -0400, in a place far, far away, JF Mezei
<[email]> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

Some space platform might be good for this, but no ISS.

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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

Exactly yes.

it
LEO

Of course, but who knows, when we receive 'low inclination platform' ? :-)
I wonder if we can use ISS orbit (much higher inclination than the ecliptic)
to make accidental launch to the lunar trajectory. Look at this situation in
3D.
I know that low inclination orbits let us to send probes and other ships to
the Moon any time we want, but in my opinion, during a short launch window it
is
possible to use other starting orbits(as ISS have).
Maybe I'm wrong ?

Yes, I know.

(STS)


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:55:35 GMT, in a place far, far away,
[email] (Rand Simberg) made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Sorry, I'm fumble-fingered today.. that's "not ISS."

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subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:20:20 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

You don't get the joke?

As soon as we find the money for regular flights to the Moon...

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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

'Regular flights to the Moon' it sounds like 'daily news in virtual reality'
;-)
The money is the biggest problem ... so one should search any solution.

(STS)


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 20:54:05 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

No, one should search for the lowest-cost solution.  Staging out of
ISS isn't it...

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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

Lowest-cost solution ? Oh yes, 'faster, cheaper, better' :-)) and now -
'mission success first'.

(STS)


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:10:12 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Yes, the lowest-cost solution that works.  Going through ISS would
increase costs, while doing nothing to improve the odds of success.

************************************************************************
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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

Generally you are right.

On the second hand, look at the Caltech Mars manned mission update
http://members.aol.com/dsfportree/exannotations.htm
where CRV is areobreaked into high Earth orbit for re-use.
What is your opinion ?
Would the ISS be useful in this Mars mission profile or not.

(STS)


subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Stanislaw Sidor <[email]> wrote:

Sorry,
exactly at http://members.aol.com/dsportree/ex99b.htm

(STS)


subject: Re: Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:32:01 +0200, in a place far, far away,
"Stanislaw Sidor" <[email]> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

I don't have an opinion.  I really don't care much about manned Mars
missions, and so don't spend much time analyzing them unless someone
is paying me to do so.

Probably not.

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subject: Re:  Alpha as a launch platform

text:
On the news Rand Simberg <[email]> wrote:

Cold-minded philosophy, but useful :-)

Thanks for the discuss followed by the topic.

(STS)


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Dravidian Negroes

text:
Nei genetic distances between Indians/Dravidians and other populations

		Indian	Dravidian
Indian		-	44
Iran		31	68
Dravidian	44	-
Near Eastern 	47	56
English		59	92
Korean		135	98

Australoid	208	203
African		351	305

The genetic distance between Africans and Indians/Dravidians is even greater
than that between English and Africans (274). Indians/Dravidians are closest
genetically to those groups living in the Eurasian 'continent' and further from
Australoids and Africans. This is natural since people living in the same
'continent' migrate to each other's areas while being isolated from those
living in other continents, ie: Africa.

============================================================================
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:22:43 GMT, [email] wrote:

East Africans are quite unlike other sub-Saharan Africans, they are genetically
closer to Indians (and other Caucasoids) than other Africans are to Caucasoids.
This is due to certain East Africans (Ethiopia/Eritrea) being partly caucasoid
due to ancient migrations from North-Africa/Arabian Peninsula, as atttested by
Guglielmino-Matessi et al.'s DNA work....

'East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly
separate. Estimation of admixture by standard methods
(Guglielmino-Matessi et al., in prep.) has given values
of about 60% African and 40% Caucasoid, using sub-
Saharan Africans as African "parents" and Southwest
Asians as Caucasoid parents.'

Very few Africans have light hair/eye color, some Ethiopians and many black
Americans do since many have a high Caucasoid admixture, Vanessa Williams comes
to mind. Light hair/eye traits are recessive, migrants into India (from the
Middle East or Central Asia) with such light features would have their traits
'hidden' by the dark hair/eye Australoid/Veddoids (not Negroids) who are
aboriginal to India. Thus the dark features of Indians is not due to a Negroid
component but darker aborigines and climate acting together.

'The first component (Australoid or Veddoid) is an older
substrate of Paleolithic occupants, perhaps represented to-
day by a few tribals, but probably almost extinct or largely
covered by successive waves and presumably leaving no
linguistic relics, except perhaps for the Hunza and Nahali.
There seems to be no linguistic trace of the Australoid-
Negrito language but Andamanese speak languages of the
Indo-Pacific family. This may or may not be their original
language.'

The Australoids are quite different from Negroids, a small group of 2,600 still
live in Sri Lanka, one of them is pictured at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4827/vedda.jpg

India and Middle East are not tiny points, so you must be more detailed when
giving latitudes. Yemen (Sanna the capital) is at 15 degrees, Iraq (Baghdad) at
33 degrees, South India at 8 degrees, and North India around 20 degrees. Skin
darkness of both Arabs and Indians increse as you get closer to the equator.
Some Middle Easterners, like those in southern Gulf regions of Oman for
instance, are darker than some Indians. So skin colors overlap between Indians
and ME people. Also Indians have a pre-Dravidian genetic component whom they
share with Asians further east and not with Middle Easterners, those
pre-Dravidians were very dark skinned people but not Africans

Most Arabs live at a higher latitude than most Indians, most don't live in
Saudi and Kuwait but further North, also the heat level is lower in winter in
the Middle East while it tends to be the same in Southern India. Thus the UV
radiation level is fairly constant in most of India while it lowers in winter
in most of ME.

In a nutshell the Dravids are a mix of Middle East caucasoids(mainly) with a
minority Australoid/Veddoid component (which is also present further east in
Asia), the Negroid component is insignificant if any, see the genetic distances
at the top of the post.

'

You don't know what you are talking about, even the 'out of Africa' theorists
use the term 'Mongoloid'. 'Multi-regional' is usually referred to only as a
hypothesis rather than a theory.

So Iraqis are Asiatic? I mean they live in Asia don't they?

Wishful thinking.

Afghanistan is landlocked, (oh well I guess you are a product of what the
American education system produces due to Affirmative Action).

Sure, and Iran is full of black people too, funny!
Even if there was migration to the Indian subcontinent from Africa, it would
have been covered over by successive waves of non-african peoples making the
African component negligible. See genetic distances at the top.

Shouldn't you be the one looking at a map, you thought Afghanistan had a
coastline.


author: S Singh Sandhu

subject: Re: Dravidian Negroes

text:
Abt that 70% dravidian 30% aryan thing the author mentioned is a load of
crap , that is probably true for South India ..but in north India or at
least punjab .. there is very little dravidian component.
[email] wrote in message
<[email]>...
greater
closest
from
=
that the
seen
have
siginificant
native
in
one
even
AfricanAmericans,
even
mention
see
Indian
genetically
Caucasoids.
caucasoid
by
Europe
hard
(Africans)
group
comes
traits
Negroid
still
Aryan
blonde hair
Indian
with
when
(Baghdad) at
Skin
equator.
Indians
they
in
in
UV
winter
No
nature of
their
a
in
distances
is
is
No
mean
theory
theorists
Pakistan
land,
the
Iranian
would
the


subject: Re: Dravidian Negroes

text:
On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:51:52 +0800, "S Singh Sandhu" <[email]>
wrote:

It wasn't an author that said that, Falc2199 felt that way though I don't know
how he calculated it or whether he is right or wrong.
Falc2199 said
'In India today, the genetic makeup is probably 70% Dravdian and only 30%
Aryan'


author: Steve Leyland

subject: Re: FREE: Get your AUK Hate Machine Cog Number here - 500 to be given away

text:
Once upon a time in a magickal land far far away the being called AUK award
winner stirred from its deep slumber and pronounced to usenet:

: On Tue, 15 May 2007 03:11:16 +0100, "Steve Leyland"
: <[email]> wrote:
:
:: Once upon a time in a magickal land far far away the being called
:: Art Deco stirred from its deep slumber and pronounced to usenet:
::
::: Steve Leyland <[email]> wrote:
:::
:::: Once upon a time in a magickal land far far away the being called
:::: Terrence Cooter stirred from its deep slumber and pronounced to
:::: usenet:
::::
::::: Cujo DeSockpuppet wrote in
::::: <f25v8m$a00$[email]>:
:::::
:::::: "Kadaitcha Man" <[email]> wrote in
:::::: news:[email]:
::::::
::::::: Crash Street Kidd <[email]> Thou seven-chinned
::::::: heap of wrath. Thou stagnant clotpole. Ye exhorted:
:::::::
:::::::: So solly.   You are not allowed to give out cog numbers.
:::::::
::::::: Want to bet on that, Slimy Street Kidd-Predator?
:::::::
:::::::: Shut up, kook!
:::::::
::::::: Please form a queue and add your name to the lits in the first
::::::: free space after the last person on the lits. See disclaimer at
::::::: end. Offer limited to first 500 applicants.
:::::::
::::::: 1. Lionel Lauer AKA Loonie Lionel AKA Sick Freak AKA nancyboi
:::::::    AKA Longword AKA google-eyes
::::::: 2. Rick Mather AKA Kadaitcha Man AKA Kaidy AKA nancyboy AKA
::::::: fatass
::::::: 3. Carl R. Osterwald AKA purpurroterwald AKA Art Deco AKA fatass
:::::::    in a nerdy sweater
::::::: 4. Kymberly Barnard AKA Kali  AKA fatass AKA Queen Bee
::::::: 5. Kevin A. Cannon
::::::: 6. Blu AKA fatass
::::::: 7. "Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt"
::::::: 8. Meatplow fatass
::::::: 9. Lamey
::::::: 10. Fly Cooter
::::::: 11. Bookman
::::::: 12. DrPostman
::::::: 13. Cujo DeSockpuppet - anti-13th stepper.
::::::: 14. Pinku-Sensei
::::::: 15. Sean Monaghan
::::::: 16. Peter J Ross
::::::: 17. Bob Officer
::::::: 18. Woodchuck Bill
::::::: 19. Pope Snarky Goodfella
::::::: 20. Widdershins
::::::: 21. Wally Anglesea
::::::: 22. Charlotte Blackmer
::::::: 23. Veronica O'Donoghue
::::::: 24. Steve Leyland
::::
:::: why teh fuck am I on a auk lits, when I've not even read that froup
:::: for 6 months and have posted my objections to its collective
:::: mentallity?
:::
::: Whine much?
:: 'ologist much?
: Having had a few oligists over for supper, I have come to the
: conclusion that they are nuttier than those they call kooks. These
: brats live for usenet. It is fun watching them foam over what "they"
: think is ...well whatever they think.

Xacterly mate, teh 'ologists are far kookier than their prey. hey maybe I
can get an award too?
:
: LOL
:
:
: GIT-R-DONE!
: alt.usenet.legends.lamey
: http://blu05.port5.com
: #20 Usenet asshole
: #6 Lits Slut
: #9  Cog in the AUK Hate Machine
: <approved by Lionel>
: #11 Most posting trolls/hunters/flonkers 2007
: #1 Disenfranchised AUK Kookologist.
: #1 Galactic Killfile Award
: Rhiannon" <[email]> wrote:
:: Oh fer fucksakes.  Welcome to my killfile you annoying little gnat.
:
: <working on one of them specheel AUK awards>


author: miguel

text:
On Tue, 15 May 2007 03:38:39 +0100, "Steve Leyland"
<[email]> wrote:

No, man. They've all been given out.

Only now in the end, Vince, do you understand.


author: John "C"

text:
"miguel" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
award

You mean ole Kimberly Barnyard?

HJ


author: Sandi

subject: Prayers, good thoughts, good vibes, whatever you got...

text:
I'll take any of those you have to offer.  I interviewed Tuesday for a job
as a domestic violence prosecutor - my dream job, with my background - and
am waiting to hear back whether they think I'm the woman for the job.  If I
get it it will start immediately after I take the bar; they won't even make
me wait for the results.

So if you have the time and you don't mind, please give me a boost in
whatever way you believe will work.  Thanks, y'all.  :)

Sandi


author: Marsha

subject: Re: Prayers, good thoughts, good vibes, whatever you got...

text:
Sandi wrote:

You certainly deserve it, Sandi.  Stick
around here after you become famous,
though.  Maybe some of the people here
could use your help :-)

Marsha/Ohio


author: Blupencl

text:
How wonderful! I know you'll get it but I'll send a lil prayer up
anyhow. :)


author: Anne Vasquez

text:
All of the above coming your way from Texas!  All the best to you, Sandi
- you'll do great!

Anne

Sandi wrote:


author: Kathycarp

text:
All fingers and toes crossed. Prayers, good thoughts, and best wishes coming
your way.


author: Judity

text:
Sandi, you are my idol for having the courage to push ahead with this
new challenging career.

Of course I'm sending you all the best wishes and positive thoughts you
deserve so much.

Isn't changing this large part of your life scary but exciting, too? I
guarantee it will keep you young in mind, if not in body.

Judity
Come drop by Walker's mansion
http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1082587
The Home of the Red Fox
http://judity.Writing.Com/


author: Bam

text:
AWESOME!!  You got it!!  Sending the Goddess BIG TIME KARMA thoughts for
ya!!

"Sandi" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
I
make


author: RaeMorrill

text:
Good luck! Would feel so great to be able to stick it to these bastards
(and that's an appropriate place for that word IMHO!)

Sandi wrote:


author: Barbara Carlson

text:
Positive thoughts coming your way.  Good luck.

Barb C.
"Sandi" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: The Other Kim

text:
Positive energies headed your way!!!

The Other Kim
kimagreenfieldatyahoodotcom

"Sandi" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


author: bsptss

text:
Sandi,
Prayers are on the way....hope once you hit the big time you'll still
pop in occasionally and let us know how you're doing!

Barbara


author: Jeannie Wilson

text:
"Sandi" <[email]> wrote here for all to
seenews:[email]:

How exciting for you!!!  Keep us posted


author: Gisele

text:
Good thoughts hurtling your way at light speed!  Let us know as soon as
you get the news.

Gisele


author: [redacted]

text:
Shouting my best Oprah impression - "You GO girl!"

I'm so proud of you!

Sandi wrote:


author: haggis

text:
Good luck indeed! My divorce atty. actually quit her practice after my
divorce (she swears it wasn't me <G>) to work as a child advocate for
the court system in these cases. She seemed to think it was one of the
few areas she could be proud to be an attorney.

jeanne

Sandi wrote:


text:
"Judity" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
Heck yeah, Judith, it's scary, and exciting.  I participated in my first
full blown hearing on Tuesday with questioning and cross-examining of
witnesses, presentation of evidence, and so on, and I learned really quickly
that there are so many things they don't teach you in law school, like:
Hand the piece of evidence to the other attorneys BEFORE you show it to your
witness.  Don't hand another attorney your marked-up copy of a document
(okay, so I knew that but I was nervous - oops!).  I've been doing the big
things like writing appeal briefs and preparing major felonies for trial,
and in the meantime haven't learned the basic courtroom etiquette that I
know will be second nature eventually.

Still, even with my stumbling all around the courtroom, about midway through
my cross examination of the one of the opposing witnesses, the opposing
counsel turned to his client and whispered, "She's getting killed up there!"
I know it was supposed to be private, but the whole courtroom stopped and
looked at him, including the judge and the witness.  Not a bad first try for
me, eh?  :)

And yes, we won.  Wheeeeeeeeeee!

As you can see, Tuesday was a really good day for me.  Given what the date
was that day, my friend Regina commented that maybe I'm evil or something.
LOL

Sandi


text:
"RaeMorrill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:flYhg.10268$[email]...
Now THAT use of the word I endorse wholeheartedly.  :)

Sandi


text:
Congrats! I'll bet you could hear a pin drop after that remark was made
- but you got the last laugh!

Sandi wrote:


text:
"Sandi" <[email]> wrote here for all to
seenews:[email]:

Now...when it's used _that_ way, it seems more of an insult on their mother
than to them - at least IMO.  LOL


text:
And I'm looking forward to hearing tales (can you tell them or is that
privileged) when you win and get them locked up.

Sandi wrote:


text:
Oh, no - he wasn't saying I was getting killed; he said I was killing his
witness.  LOL - when I saw my post and re-read it, I thought it might sound
bass-ackwards.  This was after about 20 minutes of making her admit that her
written report to the court was full of errors - one error at a time.  :)

Sandi

"RaeMorrill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:V20ig.32848$[email]...


text:
General tales about a comment someone made in the courtroom that don't
relate to the case, don't identify the client or even anything that the
client said or did, and are something that could happen anywhere - such as
the one I shared earlier - are okay.  What's confidential when you don't
have a client - i.e., when you are "the man" working for the state - is
something I will have to learn.

Sandi

"RaeMorrill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:F50ig.32851$[email]...


text:
LOL. WAY TO GO!!!! Hmm. Something of the MT coming out there perhaps?

Sandi wrote:


text:
Aren't most court records public, i.e., long as you related what
happened in the courtroom it's something anyone could generally get?

Sandi wrote:


text:
"RaeMorrill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9N5ig.10356$[email]...
No, that doesn't matter.  It's still not for me to tell, even if you can get
it through court records.  Anything you learn as a result of your
attorney-client relationship, even something unrelated about the client, is
hushed.

Sandi


text:
Interesting. I thought freedom of information etc would allow one to get
access to most stuff like that unless it was specifically sealed.

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to send wrote:


text:
RaeMorrill <[email]> wrote here for all to
seenews:mNgig.33094$[email]:

It could vary from state to state.  I can go to our county courts website
and get a good bit of information but a lot of it is not available.


text:
"RaeMorrill" <[email]> wrote in message
news:mNgig.33094$[email]...
Assuming it's not a sealed file (such as family court), you could certainly
get the information of what went on in the case.  But I as someone's
attorney can't be the person who discloses any of it to you because of
confidentiality.  Confidentiality constrains me from telling things, not you
from learning them some other way.

Sandi


author: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to send

text:
RaeMorrill wrote:

Most family law records are public where I am except for probate, where
you have to demonstrate a vested interest in the records you seek.
Juvenile records are not public; I don't believe the details of criminal
cases are public.  I used to know all this during the days when I felt
like I was going to the courthouse at least once a week, but I have
forgotten.


author: Lee Nave

subject: Wanted: Large-Precision PD Arithmetic Pkge

text:
I'm needing to do to basic arithmetic (addition, subtraction, integer
division with remainder) on integers with up to 100 digits.  Can anyone
recommend a C-compatible public domain package for Unix?

Thanks for your help.

Lee


author: Andreas Westfeld

subject: Re: Wanted: Large-Precision PD Arithmetic Pkge

text:
Have you tryed /usr/bin/bc?
   Name
     bc - interactive arithmetic language processor

   Syntax
     bc [-c] [-l] [file...]

   Description
     The bc command provides an interactive processor for a language which
     resembles C but provides unlimited precision arithmetic.  It takes input
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     from any files given, then reads the standard input.  The -l argument
     stands for the name of an arbitrary precision math library.  The syntax
     for bc programs is as follows: L means letter a-z, E means expression, S
     means statement.


author: Marc Samama

text:
In article <1pc0ct$[email]>, [email] (Andreas Westfeld) writes:
|>
|> Have you tryed /usr/bin/bc?
|>    Name
|>      bc - interactive arithmetic language processor
|>

This was posted a few months ago, in sci.crypt:

//etc,etc...

=> bc (or dc) is not very efficient, and seems buggy...

There is a lot of public domain software that provide unlimited
precision arithmetic. Further more, you'll be able to change the code
so that it suits your needs.
For a list of C-packages, look at the file BIGNUMS.TXT from
cl-next2.cl.msu.edu. There are some C++ and Fortran packages to.


author: Jay R. Hill

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Marc Samama) writes:
|>
|> There is a lot of public domain software that provide unlimited
|> precision arithmetic. Further more, you'll be able to change the code
|> so that it suits your needs.
|> For a list of C-packages, look at the file BIGNUMS.TXT from
|> cl-next2.cl.msu.edu. There are some C++ and Fortran packages to.

I tried ftp cl-next2.cl.msu.edu and found
"The archives previously kept here have been moved to rpub.msu.edu.
(Not everything has been transferred yet.)"

Files are in /pub/bignum

|>
|> --
|> Marc D. Samama ([email])

Warmly,
 Jay


author: Richard Owlett

subject: Confused by DATUM's

text:
I can "see" rectil-linear (sp?) systems such as UTM having a dependence
on presumed shape of earth.

Why/how would this influence a readout in
latitude/longitude/elevation(assumed to be distance from earth's center
of gravity).

What SIMPLE thing am I missing?

TIA


author: Harald Hanche-Olsen

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
+ Richard Owlett <[email]>:

| I can "see" rectil-linear (sp?) systems such as UTM having a
| dependence on presumed shape of earth.

It's spelled rectilinear, though "conformal" may be a more appropriate
word here.

| Why/how would this influence a readout in
| latitude/longitude/elevation(assumed to be distance from earth's
| center of gravity).
|
| What SIMPLE thing am I missing?

It's rather difficult to pinpoint the earth's center of gravity by
measurement.  In fact, measuring the shape of the earth is a
nontrivial task.  (Or used to be until recent times, except now that
we can do it so much more precisely, of course we demand much more
precision, so it still remains nontrivial.)

So you really shouldn't be surprised that coordinate systems
established in different parts of the world, at different times, don't
quite agree.  Rather, you ought to be amazed that they agree as
closely as they do: Discrepancies below a few hundred meters over
global distances, without the benefit of satellites and other modern
technology, are not to be sneered at.


author: Dominic Sexton

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
In article <[email]>, Richard Owlett
<[email]> writes

Datums can not only have a different shape for the earth but also
different location for the centre of gravity and even a rotation of the
co-ordinate frame.

Usually the earth shape will be defined by the ellipsoid used and the
different locations will be expressed as shifts in x y and z directions.
For higher accuracy transformation between datums there are also
rotations around each axis and a scale factor.


author: Chuck Taylor

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 12:40:29 -0600, Richard Owlett
<[email]> wrote:

Try this document, particularly those sections that discuss position
and datums:
<URL:http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/gps/information/coordinatesystemsinfo/guidecontents/index.html>


author: Sam Wormley

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
Richard Owlett wrote:

   There are a number of ellipsoids that attempt to be a good
   fit for a portion of the earth.
      http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/datum/edlist.html

   Upon which are built many different datums (ellipsoid) for reference
   point. Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates define two
   dimensional, horizontal, positions--in a localized region.
     http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/coordsys/coordsys.html#utm

  -Sam Wormley
   http://edu-observatory.org/maps/utm.html


author: Jeff

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
"Richard Owlett" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The problem is that the Earth's surface is irregular and cannot easily be
defined by a mathematical formula. Also gravity is not uniform from place to
place. These things add up to make it impossible to accurately define at
lat/long at any one place. Datums are just approximations and often are nor
related to each other.

WGS84 is a world wide approximation, other datums are often only valid over
a small area but are much better fit over that area. It is quite legitimate
for a single point to have different lat/long co-ordinates using different
datums.

Regards
Jeff


author: Chuck Tribolet

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
NAD27CONUS was laid out on the US using transits and tape measures starting from
Meade's Ranch, Kansas.  By the time they got to California, the east/west error (relative to WGS84)
was less than a one degree F change in the expansion of a steel tape over that
distance.  WOW!

"Harald Hanche-Olsen" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...


subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
Dominic Sexton wrote:

I think you may have focused on my *PROBLEM*
EARTH *does have* a "center of gravity"
That's a physical "fact of life"

IIRC a satellite MUST orbit in path defined by focii of an ellipse.
If focii are equal, orbit is a circle.

So what am I missing.

Why would not lat and long ignore orbit? ?????


subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
Chuck Taylor wrote:

HAVE bookmarked site ;)
suspect I'll spend hours/days/years/eons there
thanks anyway ;)
I *DID* ask for references. Thanks!


subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
Sam Wormley wrote:

I looked at them.
What questions should I be asking ?

I think I'm missing something fundamental.


author: Jack Yeazel

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
Jeff wrote:

All the above in eminently correct...  In fact, there is a
lookup table in each GPS unit that correct the altitude
readout (from the reference ellipsoid) due to this
irregularity...

There is an interesting reason why surveyors in the US use
NAD-83 instead of WGS-84...  NAD-83 considers the North
American Continent NOT drifting (which it is)...  Thus
surveys made today will be valid farther into the future...
See State Plane Coordinates instructions at:
http://www.gpsinformation.net/state-plane-mag.html

If one uses WGS-84 (as in GPS units) then after staring at
their GPS for a long time, will see us (in the US) "slip
sliding away"!


author: Bruce

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
"Richard Owlett" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Here is what I think is one explanation for the different datums.  Lets say
it's 1792 and you are sailing the ocean blue, and you come upon a new
uncharted island.  You name it "New Duckland".  Now you would like to create
a map of the island and use a latitude and longitude grid.  So what you do
is pick some convenient point on the island and using your navigation
instruments (perhaps a sextant and one of those new-fangled chronometers)
and you make your best estimate of the position of that point.  Then you
create your map based on that point.  You have now essentially created a
datum, lets call it the New Duckland-1792 datum.

Now fast forward to the 20th century.  There are other datums available,
more accurate of course then your New Duckland-1792 datum.  If you try to
navigate using a GPSR on New Duckland using the old map with a new datum
then things wont work out correctly unless you change your GPS to use the
New Duckland-1792 datum.  That is of course because the old map was created
using the "best estimate" that could be made at that time of the location of
that convenient point.

I hope this isn't too stupid of an explanation, not sure if you were looking
for something more technical.  I leave that up to others who really know
what they are talking about :)


author: Alan Murphy

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:35:54 -0600, Richard Owlett
<[email]> wrote:

You can try my explanation of Datums at
http://www.gpsu.co.uk/datums.html

This might help to explain it better.

Alan Murphy. (author GPS Utility)


author: Ted Edwards

subject: Re: Confused by DATUM's

text:
Richard Owlett wrote:

Suppose you lived on a flat world (never mind the fact that one could
not exist).  You could define a reference point and a reference
direction, say from your reference point to a perpendicular to a
particular star.  Given a unit of measurement (say a meter) you now have
a datum and all locations on your plane could be accurately described.

Now graduate to a perfectly spherical world.  If you know the radius,
choose a reference point and direction you can again locate any point on
your world.

Regrettably the Earth is not a perfect sphere.  It isn't even a perfect
oblate spheroid.  Inconsiderate of it but that's how it is.  We must
approximate.  Having made careful measurements some wise folk defined
WGS84 which approximates the Earth with an oblate spheroid of equatorial
radius 6378137 meters and flattening of 1/298.257223563 along the polar
axis.  There's some other stuff but that will do for the present.

The key word in the above is _"approximates"_.  Since the Earth is not a
perfect oblate spheroid with a well defined center, other descriptions
suit various areas better.  Thus the UK prefers one, Australia another
for best accuracy in their areas.  However, the best (so far) overall is
WGS84.  Some are hanging around from earlier days, e.g. NAD27.

These descriptions are datums (not data).  A map should state what datum
was used to assign coordinates to locations on it.  Otherwise you do not
know how to relate points on it to the same points on another map or
your GPSR.

Example:  I'm a map freak.  Have been for many years.  If I dig out one
of my old topos (using datum NAD27) and observe something interesting at
(say) 50d North, 120d West and want to go look.  So I set a waypoint in
my GPS at 50N,120W forgetting that I left it set for the default datum
of WGS84.  I will wind up 89 meters from where I wanted to be.  Now this
may sound small but depending on where in the world I am and what
_datum_ the map I'm using claims as its reference, it could be a lot
worse.  But even 89 meters could put me on the opposite side of the
canyon from what I wanted. :-(

Thus whenever you try to correlate your GPS readings to a map, you
_must_ be sure that both are using the same datum.

I hope this helps.

Ted


author: gregvan

subject: Practical FUSION reactor site.

text:
The best place to build a FUSION reactor is 93,000,000 miles away
from
the consumer... It's called the SUN...

Robert Stirling invented a heat engine in 1816... it can use focused
sunlight to move pistons by expansion and contraction of a gas...
driving an electricity generator...
Giant power plant for Southern California Edison now under
construction.
read more:
http://gregvanderlaan.com/solar.aspx

Schatz Energy Labs at Humboldt State University does research into
hydrogen fuel cells... basically, a better battery...
read more:
http://gregvanderlaan.com/ecofair.aspx


author: Bob Eld

subject: Re: Practical FUSION reactor site.

text:
"gregvan" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Childish web sites with pretty pictures of Stirling Solar installations but
absolutely NO information as to the costs, yields, trade offs, power output
or any other useful information that might give a clue about the viability
and competitiveness of the schemes.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Practical FUSION reactor site.

text:
On Dec 9, 5:50 am, gregvan <[email]> wrote:

   Well, we knew that. But the trick isn't so much getting the sun,
   it's getting the gas.


author: Doug Bashford

subject: Deal at Last at UN climate change talks!   -- Video

text:
Video: Deal at last at UN climate change talks
YouTube euronews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2BJuz3WyEU&feature=player_embedded

Published on Dec 11, 2011 by Euronews

http://www.euronews.net/ UN climate change talks have ended
in Durban with agreement to force all the world's biggest
polluters to take action to slow the pace of global warming.

It follows years of failed attempts to impose legally
binding cuts on developing giants such as China and India.

The tortuous negotiations in South Africa were extended to
allow more time to bang some reluctant heads together.