author: Christopher Denney

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Dec 22, 8:38ï¿½am, Jason Spaceman <[email]>
wrote:

There is a reason the real journalists study english before they write
stories that see print, ouch is that painful to read.


author: Boikat

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Dec 22, 8:38ï¿½am, Jason Spaceman <[email]>
wrote:

"Debate" under his terms.  He gets to make assertions, most, if not
all of them a misrepresentation of the actual science, and the
scientist side has a limited ammount of time to refute Hovind's BS.
It only takes five seconds to tell a lie, but it could take quite a
bit longer to demonstrate why the claim is false, and do so in front
of a "hostile" audience.

Hovind is stupid and arrogant, and broke federal tax laws, and that is
the bottom line.

Boikat


author: Dana Tweedy

subject: Chez Watt

text:
Nominated in the "Getting His Just Desserts", or "Entree Level
Spelling", or "A non Starter" category.

DJT


author: Free Lunch

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:38:23 -0800 (PST), Jason Spaceman
<[email]> wrote in talk.origins:

That rant was from a raving fool. Kent Hovind went out of his way to
violate the law.


author: Tom McDonald

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On 12/22/2010 12:43 PM, Desertphile wrote:

Tramp stamp? :-)

<snip>


author: Walter Bushell

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
In article
<[email]>,
 Boikat <[email]> wrote:

And, even at the last minute, he could have admitted he was wrong and
agreed to go on a speaking tour denouncing tax evasion and probably
gotten off. The government *hates* tax avoiders, but more people who
actively spread the meme.


author: Mike Duffy

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Free Lunch <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

He believed that he could hold up a cross to keep them away. In other
words, he had an over-inflated idea about how his stature in the
community as a "Goof Christian" would make the authorities hesitate to
apply legal processes in a thorough manner.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
In article <ietrpj$6k0$[email]>,
 "David Hare-Scott" <[email]> wrote:

Soylent Green is creationists?


author: Bob Casanova

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:27:11 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <[email]>:

Please; "tax evaders". Tax avoidance is perfectly legal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance_and_tax_evasion


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
In article <Xns9E56B1F94C450respondinvalidinvali@94.75.214.90>,
 Mike Duffy <[email]> wrote:

If "Goof Christian" was deliberate, congrats.


author: Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Bob Casanova wrote:

Well... in the United Kingdom, there was a rule made recently that if
you think of a clever tax avoidance trick, you have to tell the tax
man how you did it.  Then next year you probably won't be allowed to
do the good ones any more.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
In article <[email]>,
 Bob Casanova <[email]> wrote:

I know the difference between the two, but keep getting the label
confused.


author: Richard Clayton

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On 22-Dec-10 2:59 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:

The really stupid thing is Hovind had access to the kind of money and
legal advice he'd need to set up a *perfectly legal* tax shelter.
Instead, his ego compelled him to press ham at the IRS while chanting
"neener-neener-neener, you can't catch me." He's a victim only of his
own arrogance.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:35:37 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "Robert Carnegie: Fnord:
cc [email]"
<[email]>:

Interesting...

So let me get this straight - keeping in mind that tax
avoidance is legal, if you follow the rules you have to
explain why you did?


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 20:17:16 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <[email]>:

So did our good Secretary of the Treasury.


author: RMcBane

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On 12/22/2010 9:41 PM, Richard Clayton wrote:

As I recall, what they charged him with was failure to withhold and
remit payroll taxes for employees to the IRS for his creation park.  He
tried to claim that his employees were not employees but missionaries
and therefore exempt, even though they were required to work on his
schedule and follow his orders.  There may have been failure on
reporting personal income as well.

I think his wife was charged for trying to hide income by conducting
numerous bank transactions of less than $10k in attempt to avoid the
reporting requirement by banks on transactions over $10k.

I think they should have tried them on RICO as well.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:41:46 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Richard Clayton
<[email]>:

Isn't poetic justice a wonderful thing? ;-)


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Bob Casanova wrote:

I'm not an expert but I think the idea is, you have to explain /what/
you did - I suppose if you're paying substantially less than you would
pay as plain income tax or business tax.  More at
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/06/treasury-review-uk-tax-
avoidance-schemes>

Reading elsewhere, a three-way split is defined, with "tax efficiency"
being the whitest of the dark arts, merely making financial and
lifestyle choices that expose you to the least tax.  "Tax avoidance"
perhaps is going out of your way to escape being taxed, and for that
reason only, such as sending your money to the Bahamas without going
there yourself.  "Tax evasion" is the illegal version of tax
efficiency.  :-)

The article I linked describes a proposal, or perhaps wishful
thinking, that seems to attempt to outlaw "tax avoidance"!

It mostly doesn't apply to wageslaves or the self-employed, because
"only the little people pay taxes" - although even "little people" who
live near to a border with another country where goods are priced or
taxed differently are liable to cross over to do their personal buying
or selling: I recently heard Northern Ireland and the Republic of
Ireland discussed, and of course there's the matter of pharmacies in
Canada.

Forms of tax fraud involving moving goods openly across a border in
one direction and then secretly in the other direction, or vice versa,
also exist, or have existed - see Ireland again.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:49:29 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by RMcBane <[email]>:

It's a shame that "arrogant stupidity" isn't a felony.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 08:15:20 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "Robert Carnegie: Fnord:
cc [email]"
<[email]>:

So my statement was correct, and regardless of the legality
of the action taken it must be explained in detail? Or is it
the same as in the US, where one must only list the nature
of the avoidance (charity to a stated group, taxes paid to
another jurisdiction, mortgage interest, etc)?


author: Andre Lieven

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Dec 23, 4:05ï¿½pm, Bob Casanova <[email]> wrote:

Would there be anyone left out of the cells in Kansas if it were... ?
<g>

Andre


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Bob Casanova wrote:

Um... I could tell you, but then I'd have to bill you.  :-)

Actually I don't understand it, it doesn't really touch me.  I am paid
every four weeks with income tax taken "Pay As You Earn" before I see
it, and my savings accounts are taxed at the same rate.  That's
simple.


author: J. J. Lodder

subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Andre Lieven <[email]> wrote:

Why limit it to Kansas... ?

Jan


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:47:05 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "Robert Carnegie: Fnord:
cc [email]"
<[email]>:

I don't know where you live, but that's essentially the way
it works in the US. It just seemed rather odd that a legal
process had to be explained to the government which made the
rules allowing the process; one would assume that they know
what they wrote.

On second thought...


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:45:30 +0100, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by [email] (J. J.
Lodder):

No reason at all. I'd suggest The Hague and Beijing as more
productive.


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Bob Casanova wrote:

Yeah, where did our economy just go?

Anyway, I think it provides for control of (1) unintended
consequences, (2) which schemes the government should try /especially/
hard to find to be alreaoy /not/ legal, and (3) sending your income
overseas particularly - That's something that Chancellor (money-man) /
Prime Minister Gordon Brown apparently was and is particularly
concerned to stop.

I suppose that if everyone is sending their money to the pretty
tropical island of Hypothetia, our government can bomb it, to put a
stop to /that/.

Extreme case, I suppose, would be


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
Bob Casanova <[email]> wrote:

The Hague, by all means.
Do send some stupid and arrogant Americans over.
(you can no doubt think of a few suitable candidates)

Excellent long term accomodation is available,
and no one (only Mr Milosovic excepted)
has ever complained about it,

Jan


subject: Re: Kent Hovind, Political Prisoner

text:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 10:38:54 +0100, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by [email] (J. J.
Lodder):

No need; there seem to be at least a few stupid and arrogant
natives in both the places I mentioned.

Oh, yes...


author: George Plimpton

subject: "Months after Limbaugh's 'slut' remark, Fluke focused on election"

text:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-months-after-limbaughs-slut-remark-fluke-focused-on-election-20120608,0,2386840.story

What I really wanted to read, and naturally it wasn't there, was an
admission by Fluke that the entire thing was a well-coordinated Democrat
campaign stunt.

What's funny is that the outrageous response from the asshole Limbaugh
first made the stunt go the collectivists' way, but then reality set in
and they lost.  It took a while, but this was an unequivocal loss for
the collectivist nanny-staters.


subject: Re: "Months after Limbaugh's 'slut' remark, Fluke focused on election"

text:
On Jun 8, 10:34 am, George Plimpton <[email]> wrote:

Sucker.

How's that nonexistent BP doing?

TMT


author: Car Crashes Mean Car Sales - GM loves highway criminals

text:
On Jun 8, 9:34 am, George Plimpton <[email]> wrote:

Yes it was a PR stunt. Fluke is a 30 your old political activist and
as such is fair game. Limbaugh was a fool to apologize.


text:
On 6/8/2012 5:33 PM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

120/71 yesterday.

You bitch - I'm 20 years older than you, and in much better health.  HA
HA HA HA HA!


text:
On 6/8/2012 10:32 AM, Car Crashes Mean Car Sales - GM loves highway
criminals wrote:

Limbaugh was a fool to play into the stunt, and an even bigger fool -
and asshole - to call her a slut.  He absolutely missed the boat.  He
didn't tackle what's objectionable about Democrats' contraception
mandate at all.

Limbaugh does more harm than good.


author: Dakota

text:
On 6/8/2012 12:32 PM, Car Crashes Mean Car Sales - GM loves highway
criminals wrote:

I've never thought of Limbaugh as a fool but his followers certainly
qualify. By pandering to them, Rush has become very wealthy indeed.


author: Scout

text:
"Dakota" <[email]> wrote in message
news:jqti26$vfi$[email]...

True, and oddly enough the bulk and most faithful of his followers seem to
be liberals.

After all, they seem to always be able to tell you what he said on his show
that day.


text:
On 6/8/2012 11:59 AM, Dakota wrote:

Limbaugh is no fool when it comes to the radio business, but he's a fool
when it comes to political analysis.


author: RD Sandman

text:
Dakota <[email]> wrote in news:jqti26$vfi$[email]:

That means that he is a good businessman......whether or not you like the
business he deals in.

--

Road Kill!! It's what's for dinner.......

Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)


author: Fred E Brown

text:
"George Plimpton" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

More harm to Liberals and Progressives you mean.


text:
On 6/8/2012 1:24 PM, Fred E Brown wrote:

No, more harm to those trying to derail the illiberal "liberal" and
regressive "progressive" agendas.  If he's trying to help conservatives,
he's failing - he's making it harder for them to counter Obama and his
mob, and that's bad for the country.


text:
On 6/8/2012 1:35 PM, Scout wrote:

Baloney.  Plenty of leftists listen to him, but the majority of his
listeners are like-minded with him.


text:
"Scout" <[email]> wrote in
news:jqtnmv$8iq$[email]:

And was shown on Fox News.

--

Road Kill!! It's what's for dinner.......

Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)


text:
"George Plimpton" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

A 100 to 1 you don't even listen to Limbaugh, you're just parroting
what the MSM talking heads blather. The Left tried to put one over
with Fluke and Limbaugh caught them.


text:
On 6/8/2012 5:12 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
Some progressive websites keep tabs on what Rush and the Fox crew say
each day. If there's a particularly egregious example of lying or
idiocy, the website share it with their visitors. This spares them
from enduring programming that is painful to a healthy mind.

It's not just websites that perform this helpful function. Steven
Colbert and Jon Stewart also help to expose the idiocy and lies.

About the only place I hear about Rush and Fox is in this newsgroup. I
don't subscribe to cable TV and rarely watch broadcast TV. I haven't
bumped into Rush's show even when changing channels. That may be
because I don't venture into the AM band.


author: [redacted]

text:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:28:14 -0700, George Plimpton <[email]>
wrote:

You're a fucking idiot.  Too stupid to recognize obvious sarcasm.


text:
On 6/8/2012 2:08 PM, Fred E Brown wrote:

I used to listen to him all the time.  In the beginning, I thought he
was funny and said some good stuff, but over time, he came to be almost
a parody of himself.

Especially when I listened to him in the early days of the Clinton
Administration ("Day 493 - America Held Hostage" - I loved the intro to
his show then), he would sound almost libertarian when he would say what
was wrong with government campaigns against tobacco, french fries, etc.,
but then every time, it was as if he suddenly became aware of where that
would lead with illegal drugs, and he'd do the fastest U-turn
imaginable.  So, instead of government restricting tobacco, he'd end up
saying they should just ban it.  I think a lot of Limbaugh's basic
inclination is libertarian, but he wants power and money and realizes
that espousing conservative nationalism will get him more of that.

Limbaugh is not the one who "caught" what the DNC and Fluke were trying
to do.  Limbaugh never "catches" anything.  He's only the mouthpiece.
Staffers who do the analysis lay it all out for him, and he says what's
in the script.


text:
Dakota <[email]> wrote in news:jqv5ck$7p3$[email]:

sl
an
and
his

Whatever.  I simply keep challenging them to show which *newscasts* on
Fox lie.  I either keep getting crickets or the name of a political
pundit, not a newscaster.  You, however, may feel free to jump in.

Not only are both of those folks comedians but Stewart, in particular, is
usually quite open about O'Reilly being pretty balanced.

No. problem, neither Rush or FoxNews is on broadcast TV.  Rush is on
radio (and I don't listen to him) and Fox News is on cable, not over the
air.

 I haven't

Not many do. The music (which is what I use radio for) is much better on
FM or XM.

--

Road Kill!! It's what's for dinner.......

Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)


text:
"Dakota" <[email]> wrote in message
news:jqv5ck$7p3$[email]...

So what you're telling me then, is that liberals are parrots?

That they don't really know what they are talking about,  that they simply
repeat what they are told by others?

Interesting, and then you talk about Rush......


author: max headroom

text:
Dakota <[email]> wrote in news:jqv5ck$7p3$[email]:

TRANSLATION: He gets all of his news from Media Matters, HuffPo, and Daily Kos.


text:
On 6/8/2012 2:38 PM, [email] wrote:

Fuck off, Scheisskopf.  I'm much smarter than you, and I'd still be
smarter than you with half a dozen arrows shot through my brain.  And I
can kick your flabby pansy ass, too.  A pansy left-winger never has any
iron in his bones.


author: Gray Guest

text:
RD Sandman <rdsandman[spamremove]@comcast.net> wrote in
news:XnsA06D8423D77D1hopewell@216.196.121.131:

Dakota wouldn't dare expose himself to an alternate point of view would he?

--
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to
be sure.

What I like about this attitude is it works equally well for Iran and the
Democrat National Covention.

http://nukeitfromorbit.com/


text:
Scout <[email]> wrote in news:jr0b74$6n6$[email]:

Almost as if they had some kind of TalkingPointsMemo.com website where they could get the
semi-official daily talking points of the DNC so they could sound just like Nancy Pelosi and Harry
Reid....

 Irony seems to be lost on pinkies.


text:
"max headroom" <[email]> wrote in
news:[email]:

Those are the majors who blog.  Wonder how much whining you got on those
blogs about Ed Schultz, Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann before he lost
his job.

--

Road Kill!! It's what's for dinner.......

Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)


text:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:40:45 -0700, George Plimpton <[email]>
wrote:

Yea, sure you are.  You're real smart psycho.  That's why you don't do
anything all day everyday except spew your hatred and stupidity on the
Internet.  You're pathetic.


text:
"max headroom" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Notice Dakota's rather conspicuous silence?


text:
Scout <[email]> wrote in news:jr63q4$hpl$[email]:

;)


author: Tang Huyen

subject: Lackadaisical (was Re: A Cry for Freedom by Robert Thurman.)

text:
On 2/9/2012 10:13 PM, Ned Ludd wrote:

I worship the Vietnamese monks and nuns
who burnt themselves to protest the Diem
regime running down Buddhism. Vietnam
previously had suppressed the Catholics,
under Emperor Minh-Mang, and from what I
hear, a hole was dug in the ground to
bury the Catholics live, a cross was put
next to it, and those Catholics were
saved who jumped over the cross. Diem
and his Catholic family (who were put in
power by the US, and at the time Diem
lived in a Catholic seminary in New
Jersey) did not follow the Christian
teaching of turning the other cheek but
wanted to take revenge by suppressing
Buddhism, so the self-immolation of the
monks and nuns was one telling way for
them to protest. It was to me as
selfless as any human act could be.

The mass wiping out of Buddhism
occurred in India, and not just India,
but Greater India, including
present-day Pakistan and Afghanistan,
generally Central Asia (which was more
hospitable than it is now) by the
Muslims. The Buddhists basically put up
little or no resistance and were wiped
out. The Muslims went on to Indonesia,
where Buddhists also did not resist. In
more recent times, Buddhism was wiped
out by the Communists from China, North
Vietnam, North Korea, and was on the
verge of being wiped out in Cambodia.
Again there was little resistance.

Buddhists tend to be easy-going and
lackadaisical, and not pushy like
followers of Jewish mythology.
Detachment and equability do not
foster violent resistance (or violent
imposition, which was standard
Christian and Muslim fare).

兀然無事坐、春夾草自生

"Sitting quietly, doing nothing,

Spring comes, and the grass grows
by itself." Zenrin Kushû (The Way
of Zen 134, 222)

青山自青山、白雲自白雲

"The blue mountains are of themselves
blue mountains;

"The white clouds are of themselves
white clouds." Zenrin Kushû (The Way
of Zen 134, 222)

萬古長空 一朝風月

An eternity of endless space:

A day of wind and moon. (The Golden
Age of Zen 246, 22 n.2).

The above attitude is part of the reason
I react strongly to people (the fakes)
who claim "mindfulness" and yet go
ballistic on mere words on the screen,
even as everybody is protected by
asynchronicity.

Tang Huyen


author: Ned Ludd

subject: Re: Lackadaisical (was Re: A Cry for Freedom by Robert Thurman.)

text:
"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@gmail.com[remove]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

  So, what is a Buddhist to do, when communists (or any
imperialists) take over their homeland?

  The bulk of your post says to 'not resist', be 'easy-going',
with the one exception of the self-immolators that you approve
of in your homeland.  Is that because you have an axe to grind
over Diem's puppet government in your homeland?  So, is your
message to be 'easy-going' until it gets personal, and then
destroy yourself in flames?  That sounds very hypocritical.

  You say Buddhism was "wiped out" in India, wiped out in
Pakistan, wiped out in Afghanistan, wiped out in Indonesia,
wiped out in China, North Vietnam and North Korea.

  Yet here Buddhism is today, with 400-500 million adherents
world-wide.  How did that happen?  Tibet will not be 'saved'
by people lighting themselves on fire.  Buddhism will survive
or perish independently of the foolish actions of martyrs.
If the dharma needs people killing themselves in order to
persist, then it is a very stupid dharma indeed.

  So, what is a Buddhist to do, when the imperialists take
over their homeland?

  And the answer is...

  Whatever the fuck he wants.

 Ned


author: Rosie Lea

text:
"Ned Ludd" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It's very sad what's happening with this self-burning but they are certainly
drawing attention to some problems in Tibet (QED) that don't even figure on
this list...

http://tinyurl.com/6lvy99f

(Fwiw personally I think any sort of violence should be an absolutely last
resort and I feel that especially monks and nuns should be exemplars of
peaceful means only - Easy for me to say ofcourse)


author: web head

subject: Re: A pile of old wive's tales, all denied (was Re: Lackadaisical)

text:
On Feb 13, 1:01 am, web head <[email]> wrote:

and keep away from the knife or i will stab you with a fork.


author: World's most respected social scientist

subject: Re: OT: My adopted sister

text:
Robibnikoff wrote:

No, it is the smart aleck comments and the fact that people think they
can just do whatever they want that makes me hate usenet.

Also, I don't like it when you doubt that I have an adopted sister.


author: Robibnikoff

subject: Re: OT: My adopted sister

text:
"World's most respected social scientist" <[email]> wrote in
message news:[email]...

So, you'll be taking your little red wagon and leaving then? Excellent!

I don't really give a flying fuck what you like.

BTW, was right by a place where you claim to work last Sunday.  What highway
was it off of?   I'll even give you a hint  - New York State.


author: Uncle Clover

subject: Re: OT: My adopted sister

text:
On 7 Jun 2006 09:59:17 -0700, "World's most respected social scientist"
<[email]> wrote:

So why do you stick around?  You know that's the way it is here.  No sense
bitching about it.  If you're going to put up with it, then do so.  Otherwise,
it's rather self-abusive to stay.

It's usenet.  What do you expect?  100% belief of everything everyone says?


author: abelard

subject: Re: "MISSED OUT" by NOT BEING in "EURO", EH, MR. BLAIR ?

text:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 15:13:22 -0000, "alex.woodward"
<[email]>

  typed:

you, like most innumerate and economically illiterate socialists
    indulge in pipe dreams in place of reality....
you have not the first notion of what emu is about.....
it is one of the greatest con jobs ever pulled upon the masses...

that is both a stupid statement and a barefaced lie....
i assume you to be stupid...and not to recognise the lie
   you have been fed by propaganda....

then you totally misled....

that has nothing to do with emu....

you are being faced with a communist takeover...
you would do well not to confuse the communist trojan horse
    with large corporations....they are totally separate issues....
or would be....if most corporates were not run by self interested
     unimaginative clerks...
the corporates are attempting to own the communists by bribery
    in order to eliminate competition...
i quite understand that as an economic illiterate...you want that.....
but a lack of competition is a recipe for you being entirely in the
    hands of monopolists....
who can then dictate the (exceedingly low) quality and (extortionate)
    price of all that you can buy....

no...it inflames those who understand the reality, meaning and purpose
    of emu....
directly to control the masses and renege on government pension
    and other 'benefit' 'promises'...
emu is a trick to lower your wages and devalue (enormously) your
   pensions...
it is a con to allow politicians to avoid admitting their past errors,
   lies and corruption...
while ensuring special treatment and sinecures for themselves....

oh yes it is....that is why you are continually being fed lies
   that it 'is not the issue'...
this is goebbels big lie....

as stated..you are an economic illiterate....
those markets ensure the value of your currency is not
    debauched by corrupt politicians....
that, and that alone, is why the pols wish to get rid of the market....

bullshit and waffle...
forced integration is a recipe for *instability*....as you would note
   if you spent a second reviewing any case where integration
   was forced...
what do you think eta and the ira are about?
force integration....and in time you will have such movements
    all over europe...

meaningless sound bites....

when thatcher came to power....britain was dying economically....
it had 3 billion of american holdings...~10 years later...it had
     100 billion...recently british companies have invested that
     much abroad in a year.....
the car industry was dying...now britain makes cars again and
    exports them.....britain has the highest inward investment
    in europe by streets....
when bliar took over...britain had become the 4th most
    competitive economy on the planet....of course bliar
    is steadily undermining that position.....
the position would be greatly worse if britain had not
    lucked out and got far the best chancellor in modern
    history....

going into emu will eave you paying the national debts
   of highly indebted european governments....
that is why they are so desperate to have you join...
forget the bollox about 'missing the bus'....they would beg
    you to come in under almost any conditions...
emu is a plot to skin you alive....crooks invite you in with
    shills....they bait the trap....they do not block your entry
    at the door.....

no...it shook out million in make work who were not producing
    goods which could be sold.....
she allowed the modernising of the economy....which is why the
   analysts are now telling you britain is best placed among nation
   to weather any down turn.....
because not britain is mostly working to produce things people
    want and will buy...
where as europe has horrendous unemployment problems...
france is constantly on strike....germany has a contracting economy...
italy has massive government debt.....spain's young cannot get jobs...
and so it goes....

dream on....rivalry is not removed by waging magic wands...
especially crooked ones...
europe will not go to war unless fools like you ignore reality
    and attempt to force integration...like germany once did.....
the number of countries around the world is rapidly increasing
   as people seek freedom and self determination....
you idealistic communist dreams are a throwback to past
    foolhardiness....

co-operation grows by freedom to trade and to visit...
not by enforcement by commissariat....

anything but....the multinationals have deep pockets to bribe
    little men...

of course they won't they will constantly introduce rules...sponsored
    by multi-nationals...designed to stop any new competitive business
    from starting up or surviving....
small businesses cannot afford bribes and large lobbying organisations....

your 'two' supposed paths are both the same....
you don't even read...or perhaps understand....your own
   pre-digested drivel!!

you haven't put 'an argument'....you have tried to contrast
    'a' with 'a'.....
you have not indicated one 'area of argument'...let alone 'areas'...

you still haven't put an 'argument'...

you wish.....

one group added


text:
"abelard" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
(provided
unrestricted
been
that

Are you attempting to suggest that those in a common currency will listen to
a nation who refuses to join it. Do you honestly believe that we will be
able to pressurise them to adopt policies that will benefit us at their
expense? Out of the Euro means for all intents and purposes, out of Europe -
full stop and period.

us
see
conditions

Yes it does. Our country has been built on the foundation of prosperity for
a vested few only. Europe and the Euro represents meritocracy where has the
pound represents the aristocracy and privaledge. Meritocracy after all means
that those who are prepared to work hard gain whereas privaledge stands for
the complete opposite. The old boy network in the UK is about to be
demolished in one simple easy stroke. And that is one of the main bug bares
of the anti Euro brigade are about. If you take in what I have just said,
you will see that I am neither a communist or your typical socialist.

we

The rest of your post descends into a rant, therefore I could not be
bothered to respond.


author: rosignol

text:
In article <DGSL7.5581$[email]>,
 "alex.woodward" <[email]> wrote:

[zap]

They most certainly will- if that nation is an important enough trading
partner. The UK should qualify.

Bullshit. The UK's too important to cut off from Europe.

Except for fools talking about false all-or-nothing choices on usenet, I
suppose...

[zap]

What country do you refer to?

Ooooh. Currencies as proxies for class warfare. Give it a rest...

The first thing you're going to have to learn about 'old boy networks'
is that they have lasted so long because they are resilient, and if you
haven't noticed a few of the ones in europe you are quite inobservant...

Are you an atypical socialist, then?

Awwww. How disappointing.


author: Bob Sims

text:
alex.woodward <[email]> wrote in message
news:DGSL7.5581$i37.615029@news6-....
to
Europe -
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

albelard is right.

You are economically illiterate.  Or a down right liar.

We are the fourth richest nation in the world - and the USA is
the first.    In several important respects, Britain is larger than
the whole of the rest of the "EU" put together - which is why
the communist bastards as so keen to annex us - and to destroy
the UK/US alliance - which is the only barrier to communist
world domination.

If the "EU" - with whom we have only had a trade surplus three
times in the last 23 years (and tiny ones at that) - were to put up
trade barriers - they would be dead in the water and descend
into the economic ruin which is the hall mark of communist
dictatorships across the world and since they were invented.

So far as their jumped up flea policies are concerned - we could
not care less.

They have NEVER, AT ANY TIME, in the last 23 years proposed
or adopted ANY policy which has done anything other than
harm us and benefit them at our expense.

Were we to surrender to total political control from them - we
would have NO influence - and NO ability to simply ignore them.

If we were to just walk out of the "EU" - as eventually we must -
we would be free to trade with the whole world again - as we
have done in the past.   And to determine on what basis we do
that - to our advantage - not theirs.

Were they to attempt a "fortress Europe" policy - as they do
to a large extent already - they would go bankrupt - and be
destroyed by civil war - since there is no electoral method
provided or envisaged by which people could take back
control of their own countries.

Once in - there is no means of ever getting out.    Which is
something you slyly omit to mention.


author: jdc

text:
"alex.woodward"

What a lot of toss. In France, for instance, the Enarques and the graduates
of the Grandes Ecoles are far more powerful than the public school /
Oxbridge network that would be the UK equivalent.

The EU is a bureaucracy, not a meritocracy - promotion in the EU civil
service is mainly based on length of service, not job ability, and the
unions are threatening to strike over Kinnock's attempts to change it.

jdcxxx


text:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 19:33:41 -0000, "alex.woodward"
<[email]>

  typed:

i have no wish to 'pressure' anyone in europe....
emu has damn all to do with whether you form co-operation
    or treaties with other in europe....
emu is a foolish and dangerous project for europe....
and would be an unmitigated folly for britain...
it has no bearing on other policies....

my implacable opposition has no bearing on any other european
    policy matter....
i am more than a little suspicious of some initiatives....
    eg anything that weakens nato or restricts uk military independence...
much else i regard as dubious....but i pose as no expert on those
issues...
i regard them as political issues which will be fought out in the
   political arena....i may well have opinions...they may even be
   supported with cogent reasoning...
   other may legitimately have other views.....

emu however is pure foolish poison.....
and there i have more detailed technical understanding than the
    very great majority of the population...

no...

you are simply deluding yourself....those problems are internal....
moving into a corrupt europe will just change some of the bums
    on the seats....they will just be bigger bums....
britain is has more powerful multinationals than the rest of europe
    put together iir.....therefore they are likely to dominate many
    european sectors.....
they and their continental clones will expand and reduce the
   choices you presently have....

you will not stop the old boy network without fundamental policy
    changes...franchise by examination...and very close scrutiny
    of inheritance 'laws'....the introduction of a citizen's wage....
and items of that sort....
emu is counter productive to those objectives....
    but that is among its more minor disadvantages.....

i belong to no brigade....

but you are economically illiterate....and you are retailing
   sound bites and empty propaganda...not analysis.....

more like you cannot follow or keep up...
however..i could not care less about that...
my only concern is to spike your rhetoric in order that no able
    person is fooled by the idiocy......that i have already achieved...

it is vital that all able and intelligent people understand the
    terrible error that joining with emu would be.....

however...we will not be joining emu...
the argument has already been won.....there is no respectable
    or credible support left for emu......
all supporters have long now been routed....
the only possibility is to force it through by government edict
    without a referendum and by stealth and lies.....

within the current political promises it is now a ded duck....
the morons will attempt every so often to revive it as they
    are now once more attempting....
within short order they will once more back off....

there only (stupid)  hope is that the opposition will become
    jaded and apathetic.....that will not happen....
too many people now understand too much of the detail
    as to why it is so very dangerous and foolish.....

you  and idiots like bliar are simply wasting my time and
     the time of other productive people....

go attend to things that you can do something about
    like fulfilling your promises on freedom of information
    and a bill of rights....
go and sort out the nhs and education as you promised.....
not that i think you have much of a clue....
continue to back bush on flattening fundamentalism...

this emu crap is just dangerous and foolish flummery....
a diversion from reality which you cannot sell....
a diversion from your increasing failures to fulfil your
    election promises....

you are simply wasting my time.....
and that is the most you can hope for...


text:
"Bob Sims" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
listen


text:
the
means
for

Ah, at last a real argument!
I absolutely agree that this is a real danger, and an area that can also be
abused by those originating from the US. I believe Blair wants to take us
down the route where big business interests supercede measures that will
benefit the public at large. Though I believe out of Europe and the Euro can
only endanger Britain in a number of ways, there is no doubt that Blairs
view is just as disturbing. Within a week of the last election he signalled
his desire to favour Multinationals by lowering corporate tax, at the very
same instance that the disabled had many of their benefits removed. Though
these two events on there own don't mean much, when you look at the wider
picture they do represent his thinking. Big Business interest comes before
public interest, that was the clear signal.

In other words, though individuals or minority groups should not expect tax
cuts, Big business represents a higher need and therefore must be in a
position to enjoy greater freedoms than a human. This is obscene and is at
the heart of Blairs world view.

He wishes to hijack the cause of Europe for big business and the US's self
interest. It's important to recognise that the US long ago took the stance
that business interest must come before public need, that is the main cause
of the anti-globalisation debate originating out of America. Therefore Blair
and the US are not far apart. Whether or not other European leaders are
savvy enough to pick up on this, I don't know.

Therefore the argument is do we as individuals and sentient beings take a
back seat to abstract economical entities? To do so would be an act of
obscenity to the highest degree, since it would represent has you rightly
suggest just a game of musical chairs.

However, the other scenario is one where the community legislates against
big business in such a way that public interest comes first. That no
multinational must be allowed to wield such power that it can dictate a
countries tax policies. Tax policies after all are a reflection of the
morals and ethics of a country. And taxes that favour business and their
ability to direct government policy must be prevented. Europe together with
a common currency can restrict the excess's of big business is done in an
intelligent fashion. Though Blair is attempting to take it in the opposite
direction.

Remember though, that outside a common currency can only allow the
multinationals to exert even more pressure since they have less legislation
and people to compete against. Hence their easy won success in getting
corporation tax reduced after only one week in to the new parliament.


text:
"alex.woodward"

Except for the twice as many who are unemployed.

jdcxxx


text:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:30:30 -0000, "alex.woodward"
<[email]>

  typed:

bliar came to power in part through the funding of big business.....
he is their client....

there is not some necessary dichotomy of interest between
     big business corporations and the public good.....
problem come from removing competition, cartelisation and
    political funding....

there is a further real difficulty in the modern world....
some businesses must get very large in order to compete.....
there is therefore a tension between the interests of allowing
  a large uk or european conglomerate to compete with say...
  japanese or american conglomerates....and the interests of
  customers around the world.....

this requires high vigilance and independence in trust and
   cartel government regulators....
unfortunately, while politicians are for sale to the highest
    bidder...and the public is totally ignorant and uneducated.....
such 'regulation' will be a joke.....

see above....

bliar is mostly an unimaginative and not very intelligent puppet....
you attribute far too much to him....

business corporations are at the heart of your standards of living....
there is no fundamental conflict....

perhaps you are saying sommat similar...you tell me...

emu is an extremely dangerous cartel...much worse than those
    that worry you....
emu is not a benefit....it is unmitigated foolishness and disaster....

that is the nature of things until you educate the public and
    stop allowing business to buy your politicians....
your politicians are mostly venal and, to use cliff's colourful
    language, bought and paid for whores....

on this you are talking piffle...

as stated above....that is not a necessary conflict....


text:
"alex.woodward"

Seems about as much point in that as Hijacking the 12:16 to King's Cross and
demanding to be taken to St. Pancras.

No it couldn't, because it lacks the support of people, and the
identifiability of a demos that will accept this sort of behaviour. It is
more lost in any attempt to socialise capitalism than a nation-state would
be.

It will just content itself with putting through ineffective yet burdensome
regulations on the environment and labour relations, putting small and
national businesses out of trade to the benefit of the multinationals who
can afford compliance systems.

Who do you think writes the regulations? The lobbyists of multinationals -
it saves a fortune in bureaucrats. Unfortunately it leads to leaves and
human skin not passing the EU test for biodegradability.

jdcxxx


text:
In article <sk7M7.6324$[email]>,
 "alex.woodward" <[email]> wrote:

[zap]

Mmm. Overanalyzing 'signals' like this is a good way to become a
conspiracy theorist.

...and bringing morality into a matter of tax policy is silly.

Yup. You're far more politically savvy than people who have spent their
lives in the political environment, making decisions and influencing
events that determine the general state of more than a few nations.

Or maybe you have yet to develop a healthy skepticism of what someone-
who is probably quite charismatic and persuasive- is telling you.

Well, once you escape from the old central-planning trap that doomed the
soviets by recognizing that it is impossible to micromanage something as
complex as a national economy, it becomes clear that dealing with things
in the abstract is the only approach that's left.

It isn't used because it's perfect, it's used because it's the best
approach discovered thus far.

...resulting in a business envoronment that makes it very difficult for
a company to prosper, grow, employ more people, and so on...

Oh, my. Dragging morals and ethics into tax policy again.

Okay, then. Let's see how much rope you take...

Accepting [for the moment] that tax policy is a reflection (...etc),
what is moral, and what is ethical, and what tax policies reflect this?

I'm a little fuzzy on how a tax gives a corporation the ability to
direct government policy. Can you elaborate?

...

Mmm. So are you for or against globalization, and the competition that
comes with it?


author: ~ DlVIDED STATES OF AMERlCA ~

subject: ~ WHAT JESUS *REALLY* MEANT... ~

text:
Jesus taught compassion & tolerance & love.

But all these new modern day Jesus cult members
read between the lines
and know what Jesus was *really* talking about...
-------------------------------------------------
"Thou *Shall* Kill! - Fuck Love!"


author: robet

subject: Re: ~ WHAT JESUS *REALLY* MEANT... ~

text:
Funny thing I noticed about the so called Jesus followers of today. They all
want revenge, shed blood and pain.. When the Christian Churches and TV
Evangleists are more concerned about your wallet than your soul.. It kinda
tells you something.

They fell off the path of righteousness amd  lost their way.

"~ DlVIDED STATES OF AMERlCA ~" <BRAINR0T@Christian_RED_STATES.NET> wrote in
message news:1099959432.ZaRUEF6BQIm88hNbD9k2UQ@teranews...


author: Don Galt

subject: Re: ~ WHAT JESUS *REALLY* MEANT... ~

text:
robet wrote:

Christianity has been a shake down racket since the beginning.

Just like "Government" and "democracy"


author: Todd McKenzie

subject: Environment Canada Scientists Told To Toe The Line

text:
Environment Canada scientists told to toe the line

Margaret Munro,  Canwest News Service  Published: Thursday, January 31, 2008

Environment Canada has "muzzled" its scientists, ordering them to refer all
media queries to Ottawa where communications officers will help them respond
with "approved lines."

The new policy, which went into force in recent weeks and sent a chill
through the department research divisions, is designed to control the
department's media message and ensure there are no "surprises" for
Environment Minister John Baird and senior management when they open the
newspaper or turn on the television, according to documents obtained by
Canwest News Service.

"Just as we have 'one department, one website' we should have 'one
department, one voice,' " says a PowerPoint presentation from Environment
Canada's executive management committee that's been sent to department staff.

It laments that there has been "limited co-ordination of messages across the
country" and how "interviews sometimes result in surprises to minister and
senior management."

Environment Canada scientists, many of them world leaders in their fields,
have long been encouraged to discuss their work on everything from migratory
birds to melting Arctic ice with the media and public. Several of them were
co-authors of the United Nations report on climate change that won the 2007
Nobel Peace Prize.

"It's insulting," says one senior staff member, who asked not to be named.
She says researchers can no longer even discuss or confirm science facts
without approval from the "highest level."

Until now, Environment Canada has been one of most open and accessible
departments in the federal government, which the executive committee says is
a problem that needs to be remedied.

It says all media queries must now be routed through Ottawa where "media
relations will work with individual staff to decide how to best handle the
call; this could include: Asking the program expert to respond with approved
lines; having media relations respond; referring the call to the minister's
office; referring the call to another department," the presentation says.

Gregory Jack, acting director of Environment Canada's ministerial and
executive services, says scientists and "subject matter experts" will still
be made available to speak to the media "on complex and technical issues." He
would not explain how "approved lines" are being written and who is approving
them.

Jack said the policy is meant to bring Environment Canada in line with other
federal departments, but insists "there is no change in the access in terms
of scientists being able to talk."

He says the intent of the new policy is to respond in a "quick, accurate way
that is consistent across Canada."

The reality, says insiders, is the policy is blocking communication and
infuriating scientists. Researchers have been told to refer all media queries
to Ottawa. The media office then asks reporters to submit their questions in
writing. Sources say researchers are then asked to respond in writing to the
media office, which then sends the answers to senior management for approval.
If a researcher is eventually cleared to do an interview, he or she is
instructed to stick to the "approved lines."

Climatologist Andrew Weaver of the University of Victoria works closely with
several Environment Canada scientists. He says the policy points to the
Conservative government's fixation with "micro-management" and message
control.

"They've been muzzled," says Weaver of the federal researchers. "The concept
of free speech is non-existent at Environment Canada. They are manufacturing
the message of science."

"They can't even now comment on why a storm hit the area without going
through head office," says Weaver, whose been fielding calls from frustrated
media who can no longer get through to federal experts scientists who once
spoke freely about their fields of work, be it atmospheric winds affecting
airliners or disease outbreaks at bird colonies.

The weather service has been exempted from having to go through head office.
"Due to volume and technical nature of inquiries, weather-related calls will
continue to be handled through the Weather Media Access Line," the PowerPoint
presentation says.

Under the "guiding principles" of the new policy, it says Environment Canada
employees and "subject matter" experts "shall discuss only their own job
within their personal areas of experience or expertise" and "shall respect
the judicial process with respect to matters before the courts, and federal
laws and policies such as the Privacy Act governing disclosure of information
to the public."

They "shall' not," the presentation says, "speculate about events, incidents,
issues or future policy decisions." Whether this prohibition covers
speculation about the impacts of phenomenon such as climate change, which is
reshaping Canadian and global ecosystems, is not clear.

Copyright © 2007 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks
Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.


author: Tunderbar

subject: Re: Environment Canada Scientists Told To Toe The Line

text:
On Feb 20, 6:26 pm, WellDone <[email]> wrote:

The canadian computer modellers are lucky to still have employment. I
would've fired their asses years ago.


author: WellDone

text:
Todd McKenzie <[email]> wrote in
<[email]>:
<snip>
That's because the scientists won't leave out their politics.
If scientists would stick to science the AGW scam would not be
happening.  Climate scientists say man's emissions are NOT
significant.  Deal with it, kids.


author: strest

subject: Iraq will "burn the earth under the feet" of the U.S.

text:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20021012/t
s_nm/iraq_dc

excerpt:

IRAQI CLERICS CALL FOR JIHAD

The mood at a Baghdad religious meeting was far from conciliatory. Some 500
Iraqi Muslim clerics and scholars issued an edict urging Muslims everywhere
to launch a holy war to "burn the earth under the feet" of the United States
if it attacked.

"If, God forbid, the aggression takes place, declaring Jihad against the
evil American administration is the duty of every able Muslim," their edict
or fatwa said, adding that this should include enlisting to fight alongside
Iraq, striking U.S. interests and launching economic boycotts of the United
States and its allies.

Foreign Minister Naji Sabri briefed Iraqi's parliament "on the dimensions of
the rude American threats to launch a new aggression," on U.S. efforts to
pass a new U.N. resolution and on arms inspections, the Iraqi News Agency
(INA) said.


author: Stupendous Man

subject: Re: Iraq will "burn the earth under the feet" of the U.S.

text:
On 2002-10-12 7:28 PM, in news article
<ve2q9.119224$[email]>, someone who goes by
"strest" apparently from <[email]> typed:

That's what they said last time.  All they managed to burn was Kuwaiti oil
wells.

Stupendous Manï¿½Enemy of Totalitarianism
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well
armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country:
but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to
render military service in person.
--The original wording of what would become the 2nd Amendment.


author: Eyewitness

text:
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:28:27 GMT, "strest" <[email]> wrote:

As I recall, a decade ago they said American's would "swim in their
own blood".

All kinds of cute little phrases. I think Fruit Boy King Pineapple
must be one of their writers.

"OBL's dead. No doubt about it. If he were in fact alive, he would let us
know. He's toast." Fruit Boy "King Pineapple" 07/13/2002

"No, OBL is still at large." Fruit Boy "King Pineapple" 10/04/2002


author: Julian D.

text:
On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:28:27 GMT, "strest" <[email]> wrote:

Fuck 'em.

JD

'All I really need to know about Islam, I learned on September 11.'
  -Me


author: Darsh

text:
Why would you even post this?  How many times have you heard this crap?  The
"burning" of the "jihad" has never ended..... why is it such news to you
now?

darsh

"strest" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ve2q9.119224$[email]...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20021012/t
500
everywhere
States
edict
alongside
United
of


author: larquest

text:
This is not old news.  This was in yesterday's newspaper.

"Darsh" <[email]> wrote in message news:<RL4q9.20543$oq6.9737@sccrnsc01>...


author: Bill Bonde

subject: Re: Iraq will "burn the earth under the feet" of the U.S.^

text:
Darsh wrote:
Some people were not paying any attention back in 1991 and didn't read
any history since.


text:
You an idiot aren't you?  It is VERY old news.  The economy is bad.... say
it everyday I could care less.  It will never make it any less old.

darsh

"larquest" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<RL4q9.20543$oq6.9737@sccrnsc01>...
The
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20021012/t
Some
the
dimensions
to
Agency


author: Yang, AthD (h.c

subject: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Quick, name one instance where Buddhists went out and wiped out a
another group of people form the face of the earth.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balanced' budget:		1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy:		-3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie:			-892 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush fuck up my country:	          Worthless


author: Bobby D. Bryant

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:18:02 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c) wrote:

Given your subject line, you should be asking for any pre-Christian
example of genocide, which is easy enough to do.


author: duke

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:18:02 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com>
wrote:

Quick, name one instance when Christians did such a thing!!!!

Are you counting Genghis khan?
duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****


author: Dave Oldridge

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:[email]:

Actually, on the basis of the city states they were mostly conquering, the
Mongols were pretty good at the genocide thing. They were certainly non-
Christian contemporaries of the Roman Church....though their leaders were
pretty much a-religious.


author: Wordsmith

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"Yang, AthD (h.c)" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Yahweh ordered Joshua and his army to wipe out the inhabitants of
Jericho.  Christians had nothing to do with it; they didn't exist.

Wordsmith :)


author: Gregory Gadow

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"Yang, AthD (h.c)" wrote:

How about the Assyrians? They had a long-standing policy of conquering territory, dispersing
the inhabitants throughout their empire, and moving other people in the land. That is how the
"Ten Lost Tribes of Israel" were lost, when Assyria conquered Israel (Judah, the southern
kingdom, was spared this fate.) The Babylonians followed suit, but were not as agressive in
killing people and dispersing the survivors. Similar policies of actual and cultural genocide
were practiced by the Egyptians and the Han (founders of Imperial China). None of these
cultures were Christian.


author: John Wilkins

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Bobby D. Bryant <[email]> wrote:

Or, indeed, a case where Christians *did* actually succeed in wiping a
people from the face of the earth. Even the Albigensians - not an ethnic
group - survived underground after the crusade.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:14:49 +0000, "Bobby D. Bryant"
<[email]> wrote:

I agree. The subject line is a takeoff from a previous post titled
"Christianity Created Science and Abolished Slavery". I could have
simply found example of pre-Christian science (Pythagoras) and
religions that does not advocate slavery (Buddhism), but this rouses
the rabble a lot more effectively.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balanced' budget:		1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy:		-3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie:			-893 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush fuck up my country:	          Worthless


author: Ninure Saunders

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
In article <[email]>, duke
<[email]> wrote:

-On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:18:02 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c)"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com>
-wrote:
-
->Quick, name one instance where Buddhists went out and wiped out a
->another group of people form the face of the earth.
-
-Quick, name one instance when Christians did such a thing!!!!

"Christian" Spanish Invaders wiping out much of the native American peoples....

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

Take my polls
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-
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author: Brian E. Clark

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
duke <[email]> wrote:

Perhaps you were thinking of Kublai Khan?

"Chingis-Khan did not belong to any religion and did not follow any
creed, he avoided fanaticism and did not prefer one faith to the other
or put the ones above the others. On the contrary, he used to hold in
esteem beloved and respected sages and hermits of every tribe,
considering this a procedure to please God." [Juwaini, sec.2]

"He [Chingis-Khan] ordered that all religions were to be respected and
that no preference was to be shown to any of them." [Makrizi, sec.11]


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:05:37 -0500, duke <[email]> wrote:

Are you as stupid as you look? Genghis Khan is not Buuddhist.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balanced' budget:		1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy:		-3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie:			-892 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush fuck up my country:	          Worthless


author: Puck Greenman

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:05:37 -0500, duke <[email]> with
calm deliberation, and malace aforethought, wrote:

The massacre of the Cathars.

    Puck Greenman

          #162

     BAAWA Knight.

Blesed is the self righteous xtian,
for his is the sure and certain knowledge
that no matter what load of tripe he
comes out with:
    God told him to say it.


author: Edgar Svendsen

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"John Wilkins" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The Yahi in California, a man named Ishi was the last of this people.

Ed


author: Mark K. Bilbo

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:10:20 +1000 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
[email] (John Wilkins):

Actually, the systematic destruction of a *nation is genocide. Genocide is
a broader concept than *extermination. Even if some people survive, if
their national/cultural existence is destroyed, that's genocide.


author: Pastor Dave

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:48:00 GMT,
[email] (Ninure
Saunders) screamed out:

He said, "Christians", not, "those who call themselves
such".  I also find it interesting, that for someone
who claims to be a Christian, you spend most of your
time berating the faith and attacking God's word.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:48:00 GMT, [email] (Ninure
Saunders) wrote:

They did?

duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Edgar  Svendsen <[email]> wrote:

Now we equivocate on the meaning of "people" - the Yahi were a tribe,
related to other NA natives. If we draw the lines that tightly, we can
surely also find a village destroyed by Buddhist warriors somewhere.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Mark K. Bilbo <[email]> wrote:

That's the UN definition, isn't it? OK, let's run with that. What counts
as a nation?


author: stoney

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:50:16 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

/cue the Native Americans.....  :\


author: Courageous

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:00:11 -0400, Pastor Dave <nospam*-*[email]> wrote:

There are centuries of history where your damning
condemnation of "not christians, (just) those
who call themselves such" would have needed to be
applied to the heart of the then-religious leaderships
around the world, and substantial portions of their
flocks as well, perhaps even majorities.

You might consider the No True Scotsman fallacy for
a moment, and as yourself if it applies.

C//


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
In article <[email]>, Pastor Dave
<nospam*-*[email]> wrote:

-While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
-Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:48:00 GMT,
[email] (Ninure
-Saunders) screamed out:
-
-
->->Quick, name one instance where Buddhists went out and wiped out a
->->another group of people form the face of the earth.
->-
->-Quick, name one instance when Christians did such a thing!!!!
->
->
->"Christian" Spanish Invaders wiping out much of the native American
peoples....
-
-He said, "Christians", not, "those who call themselves
-such".  I also find it interesting, that for someone
-who claims to be a Christian, you spend most of your
-time berating the faith and attacking God's word.

And as usual, you prove yourself to be a LIAR.

-
1) You might have a point, of those people in question aren't calleed
"Christians" when eber it becomes convient..sorta of the way the Founding
Fathers of the USA become Christian..even they committed every sin inder
the sun.

2) I don't berate "the faith"...I tell the truth about people like you,
who would have either approved  (or remained silent) what evils  those
"christians"  have done  and continue to do  in "the name of
Christianity".

3) I have NEVER attacked God's word,  since God's word is not a  book, but
the the one who became the incarnate Word, aka, Jesus.

NOW BACK TO THE KILLFILE WITH YOU!!

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com

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http://Ninure.tk

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-
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http://www.MCCchurch.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address


author: Andrew W

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
peoples....

Funny, christians are one big happy community when things are going well,
but as soon as there's trouble in the family they quickly distance
themselves from those others who they hastily label as just another false
christian sect.


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
In talk.atheism duke <[email]> wrote:

Yes, they did. Read your history.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
In article <[email]>, duke
<[email]> wrote:

-On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:48:00 GMT,
[email] (Ninure
-Saunders) wrote:
-
->->Quick, name one instance where Buddhists went out and wiped out a
->->another group of people form the face of the earth.
->-Quick, name one instance when Christians did such a thing!!!!
->"Christian" Spanish Invaders wiping out much of the native American
peoples....
-
-They did?

Yes..they did.

Try reading some history books now and then.
-

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk

My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"John Wilkins" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
ethnic
Sure!  I was responding to your intimation that Christians were too
incompetent to have ever wiped out a people, if the Yahi won't do I'll have
to do more research.

Ed


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:37:48 +1000 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
[email] (John Wilkins):

That's the original definition. The UN is using the actual definition. The
*altered definition is largely due to the US. In that the US is guilty of
genocide in the *original definition, we attempted to redefine the term.

What, exactly, constitutes a nation isn't something I'm interested in
getting into right now. It's an interesting topic but one in which it's
far too easy to get into the splitting of hairs in order to evade the
major issues that there was once an identifiable group with a language,
culture, and system of governance that has been forced to cease to exist.

I was simply noting that showing systematic and total extermination is
*not necessary to establish genocide. US recalcitrance notwithstanding.


author: Yang, AthD (h.c

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:37:48 +1000, [email] (John
Wilkins) wrote:

The fact that various American Indian tribes have signed treaties with
the US makes them distinct nations from the perspective of the US
government, I would argue.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balanced' budget:		1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy:		-3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie:			-893 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush fuck up my country:	          Worthless


author: Mike Painter

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
stoney wrote:

Mary Youngblood was a performer at a festival I worked this lastweek end. I
overheard part of a radio interview where she said that she was adopted by
whites and even though they did their best to keep her cultureal heritage
alive they could not do it.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:53:24 -0700 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
"stoney" <[email]>:

Provided you can find any left...


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:20:33 GMT, Courageous
<[email]> screamed out:

Your ranting is noted.  I am not the one who was
"condemning", but you knew that.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Courageous <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

I felt a "What does a Scotsman wear under his kilt" joke coming on,
but out of courtesy, I'll refrain.

Wordsmith :)


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:02:38 GMT,
[email] (Ninure
Saunders) screamed out:

Ignore what God says, when it's not convenient for you.
Gotcha.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"Ninure Saunders" <[email]> wrote in
message
news:[email]...

Really?

And yet the only place we can find Jesus is in a book.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:43:55 +1000 in episode
<40faef21$0$18670$[email]> we saw our hero "Andrew
W" <[email]>:

For almost two thousand years now, they've been having cat fights over
who's a Real Christian(tm).

And, you know, if *they can't make up their minds, what should the rest of
be expected to think?


author: duke

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:39:10 GMT, [email] wrote:

They did?

duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:56:32 GMT, [email] (Ninure
Saunders) wrote:

They did?

duke
*****
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you
and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
*****


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:56:32 +0000, Ninure Saunders wrote:

'Puke?'  *Read?'  My dear Ms. Saunders, Puke, like Shrub, isn't able to
ascertain what a series of pictures is 'saying.'


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Edgar  Svendsen <[email]> wrote:

It's not a matter of *incompetence* so much as the Hominid m.o. is to
kill all the men and mate with all the surviving women. A lot of culture
is passed on by women even when they are subjugated slaves. We can see
this in the Spanish treatment of South American Indians...


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Mark K. Bilbo <[email]> wrote:

Well that's actually an answer I can deal with, so thanks.

I concur.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Yang, AthD (h.c) <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

OK. How many of these treaty-making nations were exterminated? This is
not a leading question - I read Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee in the
70s, and that is the sum total of my knowledge of NA native recent
history.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:59:21 +0000, Mike Painter wrote:

Not much left to work with.  :\


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:52:22 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

Yes.  Those 'loving' Christians did a first class job of physical and
cultural genocide.  (piss on them)


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
I find calling a Christian someone who (only) "calls
himself such" more than a bit of a condemnation. But
you knew that.

C//


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
In article <40faeb82$0$18196$[email]>, "Andrew W"
<[email]> wrote:

-"Ninure Saunders" <[email]> wrote in
-message
-news:[email]...
->
-> 3) I have NEVER attacked God's word,  since God's word is not a  book,
-
-Really?
-
-> but
-> the the one who became the incarnate Word, aka, Jesus.
->
-
-And yet the only place we can find Jesus is in a book.

Millions of people,  have "found" Jesus  without any book.

In fact for at least the first 3 centuries or so most Christians found
Jesus without  the New Testament.

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk

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-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address


author: JessHC

subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
duke <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Gosh, what an asshole.  Start with these, since they skipped this
information at your "college."

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/IndianPeoples.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm
http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/history/precolumbian/tainover.htm

Read.  Learn.  And seek help.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
duke wrote:
Earl seems to be having another and more serious of his little episodes.

How about the hunting for sport of people in Austrilia?

We could also mention the condition of the people at the time of the french
Revolution or of the Russian people in 1917. Who was it that owned most of
the land in Russia at the time?


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
In talk.atheism duke <[email]> wrote:

Duke, you're repeating yourself.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
duke <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

You didn't hear about that at your "college"?


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:26:06 +1000, [email] (John
Wilkins) wrote:

Actually, I don't know. Mark Bilbo has an American Indian background,
so he would probably know more about that.

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balanced' budget:		1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy:		-3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie:			-893 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush fuck up my country:	          Worthless


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:26:06 +1000, John Wilkins wrote:

Decimated?  All of them.  Effectively destroyed culturally?  All of them.
Treaties violated right and left by the U.S. Government-there might be 1
or 2 that weren't but I wouldn't bet on it.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:34:42 -0700 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
"stoney" <[email]>:

Hey, they did it in Krustian luv!


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:31:55 GMT, Courageous
<[email]> screamed out:

Sure did and guess what?  Now I'm a doctor.  Why?
because I called myself one.  Need anything operated
on?


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
"Ninure Saunders" <[email]> wrote in
message
news:[email]...

Then what was the purpose of the book?
To confuse the issue?
Because there are a lot of confused christians going around today.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:01:26 GMT,
[email] (Ninure
Saunders) screamed out:

The New Testament has been around since the 1st
century, whether it was compiled into one book or not.

What you're saying is like saying that the Old
Testament didn't exist at all, because it wasn't bound
into one book in the 1st century, yet the Apostles
preached from it, just as the churches read the Gospels
and the letters of the Apostles and considered them
Scripture.

It is obvious that your mission is to reject the
written word of God to man.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
<[email]> wrote in message
news:mpYLc.8430$[email]...

Duke's a christian.
That's what christians do.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:18:41 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

And Christians love warming themselves in the depths of their greed and
the spilled blood of their victims.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
(1)

(2)

(1,2 and 3) So you know that you _were_ condemning, but
said to the contrary. Sure, I get it.

LIAR.

C//


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:30:23 GMT, Courageous
<[email]> screamed out:

Your dishonesty and word snipping and twisting of an
obviously sarcastic statement is noted.  Goodbye.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Pastor Dave <nospam*-*[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Don't let the door, etc.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
Your mastery of internet media leaves much to be
desired. If you want people to understand what you
say as sarcasm, you'll have to mark it.

C//


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:11:54 -0700 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
[email] (JessHC):

How many years has "Pastor" Dave been leaving now?


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:23:53 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

Six or seven, I think.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:32:38 -0700 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
"stoney" <[email]>:

Guess he just can't get enough of us eh?


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:18:05 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

He's jealous.


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:33:54 -0700 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
"stoney" <[email]>:

Or horny?


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:33:54 -0700 in episode
<[email]> we saw our hero
"stoney" <[email]>:

That's just because we have all the fun. <G>


subject: Re: Christianity Created Genocide

text:
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:03:57 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

Best protect your backside then, Mark..... :D


author: Jasbird

subject: Re: UKCIA opposes cannabis reclassification

text:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:23:54 +0100, Phil Stovell <[email]>
wrote:

Sensible move.

When cannabis was decriminalised in South Australia (the expiation
scheme") the number of people imprisoned INCREASED - because so many
refused to pay the fine.  see [MacDonanld & Atkinson 1995 - "Social
Impacts  of the Legislative Options for Cannabis in Australia: Phase
I, Research." - Australian Government Printing Office.

- which goes to show that 'liberalisation' of the law can actually be
an authoritarian measure. If the cops have given up enforcing the law
in minor cases - a measure designed to make it easier to enforce will
be a step backward. That's because criminal trials are generally
abolished - these trials cost the authorities a lot of money and are a
waste of their time (from their point of view).  Of course this isn't
what Blunkett proposes but it is what is being proposed in Canada - is
it not?


text:
Phil Stovell wrote:

Why not accept the reclassification
as a small step forward? The increase
in penalties is a separate law and therefore
a separate issue which can be fought
separately is it not?

.


text:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 10:08:07 -0400, greek_philosophizer
<[email]> wrote:

It's not a matter of cannabis reclassification. If Blunkett wanted to
do that it's very easy - he just moves Cannabis from class B to class
C with a simple standing order. Could be done tomorrow, in less than a
day.

Blunkett wants to use cannabis reclassification as a pretext to bring
in more authoritarian measures - there isn't any point in supporting
that.

If cannabis is going to be a class C drug - supposedly the least
harmful of drugs - then how can he justify seizing the homes of people
who hosted a party where some cannabis was smoked just because that
person has a nasty neighbour - who's first instinct is to go to the
cops to complain about noise.  If someone is a 'social problem' -
there should be a clear definition of social problem - ie. gets
constant complaints from all their neighbours about noise, aggression
etc. - not "smokes cannabis".  Nor do I see why cannabis use should be
associated with "social problems" more than alcohol use is.  I've
never been randomly attacked by someone stoned on cannabis - I have
been randomly attacked by drunks.

Do you think smoking cannabis is more of a "social problem" than
getting drunk?


author: All Seeing I

subject: Re: In Which All Flee & Hide Demands That Budikka Kick his Dumb Ass Again

text:
On Feb 10, 8:18 pm, bpuharic <[email]> wrote:

The fish have aquired attributes \\\ THROUGH NATURAL SELECTION///
that are NOT beneficial to the species and its survival. That
falsified how natural selection is suppose to work.

Why can't any of you address that?

Oh thats rigt!


author: Tim Miller

subject:
Re: In Which All Flee & Hide Demands That Budikka Kick his Dumb Ass
 Again

text:
All Seeing I wrote:

Well, no, they didn't.

HOW COME YOU CAN'T ADDRESS THAT??

LOL!


author: bpuharic

text:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:31:44 -0800 (PST), All Seeing I
<[email]> wrote:

uh you cant AQUIRE attributes though natural selection, no matter what
your comic books tell you.

wrong. more comic book crap. SMALLER fish survived

and reproduced

that's the DEFINITION of evolution

i just did

and creationism?

why dont you guys say word ONE about that??


author: Erwin Moller

text:
On 2/11/2011 3:31 AM, All Seeing I wrote:

I think the above statement by Madman makes it clear why he is still so
damned confused about ToE.

He still suffers from the naive notion that natural selection leads to
"better" organisms. (Clearly without wondering what he means exactly by
"better".)

Madman, get this into your head and you learned an important lesson
today: Evolution is NOT busy creating better organisms.
Evolution isn't busy at all. It isn't sentient. It is the name
scientists gave to a process.
There is no Grand Plan.
There is no Master behind the scenes pulling the strings, kindly pushing
the critters into the Right Direction.
None of that.

There is only offspring or no offspring.
You should wonder: Which genes are copied (into the offspring/next
generation) and which genes will not?

As long as you refuse to understand that, you will keep asking questions
like the current one, and think it is a smart question.

We are all addressing it all the time, in many different ways, for many
years, but nobody succeeded triggering your brains enough.

whotzraigt?

Erwin Moller


author: Robert Grumbine

subject: Re:

text:
In article <[email]>, Inez wrote:

[trim]

[trim]

  But I'll guess you didn't graduate in the last 10 years.

  Texts are indeed laden with pictures of scientists.  Also
short bios of the warm and fuzzy type.  It's part of the reason
texts are so massive any more.

  The thing which baffles me is where they found texts that
were showing mostly men to do the study with.  The books I've
looked at (my kids', plus the ones my sister has in teaching
her jr. high) are very likely majority women.  Certainly enough
that you'd have to do a statistical check to decide.  What's
clearly missing is not women, but white men.  In one book, I think
there were none.  Asian, African, and Hispanic (of the not-pale
variety) men.  There were also women, mostly white, but also
of other groups.  But no pale males.

  If one were to be drawing conclusions about who can do
science from the pictures, it'd be that white men can't
hack it, and are the only group that can't.


author: Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc

subject: White men can't jump

text:
Robert Grumbine wrote:

I gather that the text was specially prepared with male or female
scientists shown.  As for a message of stereotype threat, I'd guess
that white males are immunised to it at an early age.  Conversely, as
a white male myself, I can't cook but I did receive cooking lessons at
school, although this may have been unusual.


author: el cid

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 2, 7:51ï¿½pm, "Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-
[email]" <[email]> wrote:

Let's distinguish between can't cook and don't cook or won't
cook. My father the rocket scientist won't cook. There is an
element of situational awareness that may indeed be lacking
evidenced by cups of tea left unremembered throughout the
house and a ubiquitous one in the microwave. But it is as
much an issue of "knowing" he can't cook that stops him.

Since he now lives alone I've tried to teach him a few things. Frozen
meatballs are readily prepped with some bottled spaghetti sauce
and he can boil water and cook spaghetti but ... combining these
two operations seems like too much compared to a TV dinner that
has spaghetti.

Of course for _real_ cooking, the question is if you measure
out all ingredients or just add them. Real cooking doesn't
involve precision measurements but rather understanding of
what adding more or less of an ingredient achieves.


author: James Beck

subject: Re: White men can't jump

text:
On Sun, 2 May 2010 16:51:20 -0700 (PDT), "Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc
[email]" <[email]> wrote:

Like the other boys, I had 1 quarter of cooking lessons in junior high
and 2+ years of shop (drafting, metal, wood and plastics). I can make
gorgeous omelets mouth-watering cakes and prize winning pies, but my
father 'accidentally' broke the lamp I made in wood shop and bent my
hideous towel bar. We mutually agreed to toss my tetanus-inducing
cookie cutters. In examining one of my many drafting efforts at modern
art, teacher once said, "You know, you're supposed to use different
pencils for different kinds of line." Having replied that I had used
different pencils and been required to demonstrate it, he stared at me
for a few moments and suggested that I might prefer a different line
of work.

That's not to say that I'm mechanically inept; in a group I'm usually
the one that figures out how things work. Sometimes that goes pretty
well, as in when the cannon I made for 5th grade science class shot a
hole through one of the school windows (I can just imagine the
reaction to that today). More often things turn out bad. In sculpture
I usually wait for the audience to identify my work before I agree
with their answer.

I had forgotten that textbooks have pictures of people. If they have a
lot now, it's no wonder they're so expensive.


author: Susan S

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
In talk.origins  I read this message from el cid <[email]>:

[snip]

I must disagree. While I consider myself a good cook who usually
dispenses with formal recipes on a day to day basis, I also read
cookbooks for pleasure and will follow the directions for something that
looks interesting. My background includes a number of college courses in
food and nutrition, some of which required hands-on work in the kitchen.
I have friends and family who are also interested in food and cooking;
we discuss cookbooks, recipes, and food/cooking science.  None of us
think we know so much about the cooking process and ingredient
combinations that we can't learn more from others who make working with
the stuff their profession or scholarly pursuit. I recommend "On Food
and Cooking" by Harold McGee.

Susan Silberstein


subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
el cid wrote:

I like this definition. It makes me a Real Cook (TM).
(white man, can't jump, can cook, never had no lessons)


author: haiku jones

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 3:54ï¿½pm, Susan S <[email]> wrote:

Amen, sister!!

(and his "The Curious Cook" was interesting too, but hardly
as breath-takingly encyclopaedic as "On Food and Cooking")

Haiku Jones


author: William Morse

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
Susan S wrote:

I agree with you. My wife and I  initially will follow a recipe, and for
some of them never change it because it works perfectly. But we also
fake it on many occasions, and also fiddle with recipes that don't work
out the first time, including checking for alternates on the internet.

But my real point was that, despite being raised to think men weren't
supposed to cook, most of the male friends of my generation are quite
happy to cook regularly, trying out  interesting recipes. It would seem
  that the general message that "white men can do anything" can drown
out the  particular message that "white men can't cook".


author: aganunitsi

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 3:54ï¿½pm, Susan S <[email]> wrote:

I am totally a recipe fiend, but then my degree was in biochem. The
first time you try a recipe, it's a lab concoction you, and your
unfortunate friends/family, can eat.

Eventually you do move "beyond recipe", though. I particularly learned
this when I started making breads/pastries/pasta. There is no (good)
recipe that will tell you *exactly* how much water to add because the
amount of water needed depends on how much ambient moisture is already
in your flour. You start with a minimal amount, and then you have to
feel the dough and decide for yourself. Then you might add a bit more
and feel it again. You can't teach this with a recipe - the sense of
what feels right is trial and error. Lots of error - everyone makes a
few bricks. Which is why bread pudding is an excellent recipe to keep
in your back pocket.


author: SkyEyes

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 3:54ï¿½pm, Susan S <[email]> wrote:

Ah, I second the motion, that's a *GREAT* book!  Never mind cooking,
just read the thing for pleasure and knowledge.  I was fortunate
enough to receive it as a Giftmas present two years ago, one of the
best I've ever gotten.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes [email]


subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 5:56 pm, SkyEyes <[email]> wrote:

How come I've never heard of molecular gastronomy?! Sounds awesome - I
guess it's all biochem to me. My first exposure (although it wasn't
given a name) would have been 7th grade chem class, where we made an
appleless "apple pie" with saltine crackers and KC4H5O6 (aka cream of
tartar).

The best "molecular gastronomy" cookbook I have is Cookwise by Shirley
O. Corriher. Great illustrations, well organized, in-depth
explanations and tasty recipes for testing. Goes into the nitty gritty
of denatured proteins, white meat vs red meat protein content,
Maillard reactions, gluten + gliadin + water = gluten... it's a mini
biochem course for the kitchen.


author: Burkhard

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On 4 May, 03:23, William Morse <[email]> wrote:

But that was never a really  clear message - master chefs always were
more often than not white man, so plenty of roe models available in
principle.


author: Nick Keighley

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On 4 May, 03:23, William Morse <[email]> wrote:

I was raised in house where my father cooked so it never seemed odd. I
just thought white men never washed up...


subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On 4 May, 00:22, aganunitsi <[email]> wrote:

as a died in the wool measurer I have to disagree! Some things work
well with the toss-a-bit-of this in (soups) some things don't (cakes).

I think this is more a psychological choice than a fundamental issue.

I suffer from "the second system effect". The first time is usually
ok. I follow the recipe and weigh everything. The second time "I know
how to do this" then it breaks. Eventually I arrive at my own hacked
version of the original recipe.

This trust in the original recope can lead me astray. I have too much
trust. If it sounds like *way* too much salt, then it probably *is*
way too much salt. If no one in the right mind would use anchoveys
with *that* then I'm probably not going to like that.

never got on with that. I gave up and got a bread maker.

too much cost in time and ingredients.


subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 4:22ï¿½pm, aganunitsi <[email]> wrote:

What do you think of this new "molecular gastronomy" school of
cooking?  I am dying to try it.  (Of course, the particular restaurant
I want to try it *at* is El Bulli in Spain, Ferran Adria's place.)

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes [email]


author: wade

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 7:22ï¿½pm, aganunitsi <[email]> wrote:

Agreeing, making Navaho fry bread is not an issue of measurements
and I shudder at the notion of measuring what I put in my chili. The
difference may be in what I choose to do in the kitchen, that and some
arrogance around doing my own version of recipes I read.

Maybe there are recipes that are best followed with precision but
why would one relegate oneself to such? No fun at all!


subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
On May 3, 7:39ï¿½pm, aganunitsi <[email]> wrote:

Molecular gastronomy seems to be the science of reducing a food to
it's essential nature, then re-structuring it into a new form that
nevertheless is true to the "nature" of the food.  As a biochem guy,
you'd be in your element.  They do things like make "New England clam
chowder" with 1 raw clam, some bacon, some onion, and a kind of a
potato fluff they squirt out of a can.  Supposed to be the most
intense New England clam chowder anyone ever ate.

Go to CBS's 60 Minutes web site at http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/
and click on the "Chef Jose Andres" link (he's the one that does the
clam chowder).

Also, if you get The Food Channel, keep an eye peeled for pieces about
El Bulli in Spain (Costa Brava area IIRC).  You have to make
reservations *years* in advance.

I'm putting that one on my list.  However, unless you've seen what the
molecular gastronomy chefs do - and people's reactions to it - I don't
think you get a good mental picture about what the discipline is all
about.

Brenda


subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
Nick Keighley wrote:

Wash up? I'm sorry, I've never heard of that concept :-)


author: Paul J Gans

subject: Re: White men can't cook

text:
wade <[email]> wrote:

You can't follow recipies with precision, as you well know.  Too
many variables from altitude to humidity, to varying amounts of
active ingredients in the various materials, etc., etc.  A good
cook (and I suspect you are one) adjusts as he or she goes along.

Chemistry has it easier.


author: [redacted]

subject: Several hundred Chinese rally in Toronto opposing Tibet independence


author: Osama Bush Ladin

subject: Re: Several hundred Chinese rally in Toronto opposing Tibet independence

text:
In article <384b03c1-d3c2-482b-b4a1-
[email]>, [email] says...

Wow. That's interesting.

Too bad Tibetans don't have the same freedom to express themselves in their
own country of Tibet as these Chinese do in Canada.


subject:
Re: Several hundred Chinese rally in Toronto opposing Tibet
	independence

text:
On Mar 30, 4:15 pm, [email] wrote:

No, I have it on good authority that only those nasty Buddhists do
things like that.


author: CharlesLiu

text:
On Mar 30, 4:28 pm, [email] wrote:

And this guy tried to disrupt other people's right to free speech -
got carted away by Canadian police:

http://www.pbase.com/sheldon869/image/94863020.jpg


author: xi

text:
Xi waves hand to Chinese in Canada.

:)

Thank you Boblee1 for that information.

Peace and best wishes.

Xi

On Mar 31, 12:00 am, [email] wrote:


text:
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:00:56 -0700 (PDT), [email] wrote:

Here are the pictures.

http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/200803/news-gb2312-554045.html


text:
On Mar 30, 5:00 pm, [email] wrote:

It is high time for the world to know the other side of the story.


text:
On Mar 30, 6:00 pm, [email] wrote:

Simultaneous rallies in Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary. This
might have had outside organization, perhaps even from the Hu Jintao
clique.


text:
Thank you for that information. It has united us more, yes.

Of course, all of them are outside Chinese authorities to avoid
problems with local authorities.

On Mar 31, 1:15 am, [email] wrote:


text:
Of course, we are just students, we cannot pay the huge amounts of
money that the free Tibet propagandists pays for public relations,
marketing, etc. Do you remember the campaign "weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq"?

We cannot pay such campaigns. They are rich and they have support from
Western governments and Western media. Students are just normal
people. It is already a success to get coverage from a webpage in
internet and some local newspapers.

On Mar 31, 2:56 am, [email] wrote:


author: Jim Walsh

subject: Re: Several hundred Chinese rally in Toronto opposing Tibet    independence

text:
On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 01:58:44 +0800, CharlesLiu wrote
(in article
<[email]>):

It will be great when the Chinese police cart away those who try to disrupt
demonstrations, instead of as now when they cart (or worse) the demonstrators
away.


subject: Re: Several hundred Chinese rally in Toronto opposing Tibet  independence

text:
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:58:44 -0700 (PDT), CharlesLiu
<[email]> wrote:

Canadians are the nicest people in the world, but there are a few
diehard right wing conservatives who actually believe they are
Americans instead. That's where it went wrong, and Canada is paying
the price with real blood in Afghanistan.


text:
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:15:03 -0700 (PDT), [email] wrote:

It's nothing when compares with the CIA sponsored Tibetan protests
across the western world all the way to the Himalayas.


author: Michael Calwell

subject: Re: Access Denied to "the Pill"

text:
Attila wrote:

It's like having a discussion with a brick wall.


author: sparky

subject: Re: Access Denied to "the Pill"

text:
"Michael Calwell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:41a1e070$0$1073$[email]...
to

Are you as thick as a brick?   You can not seem to understand that
 a person should not let the beliefs of whatever cult he belongs to
interfere with the job he was hired to perform.  He can preach
Satanism after work if he wishes.


author: D. A. Tsenuf

subject: Re: Access Denied to "the Pill"

text:
"Michael Calwell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:41a1e070$0$1073$[email]...

Yes indeed..
    So why do you insist on behaving like a brick ?


subject: Re: Access Denied to "the Pill"

text:
sparky wrote:

Nonsense. Do you think that atheists should be allowed to bring their
principles to bear on their job?