subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Greetings;

"Freethought110" <[email]> wrote in message news:<newscache$pnu2yg$psi1$[email]>...

I are a hick.  And derned prowed uv it.

Now don't soft soap me.  If you don't like me, just say so.

(snip long personal and political diatribe)

Actually, I think I expressly did state that there are complexities,
and that there are significant blocs of moderate Palestinians, many of
whom reside in my neighborhood as peaceful and valued contributors to
the community.

But in HIS neighborhood, Arafat holds the reins of power, and he is
NOT committed to the welfare of the Palestinain people.  If somehow he
can be replaced by someone who would rather spend money on economic
development than on shiploads of smuggled weapons, a propserous
Palestinian people would have a stake in peace instead of in suicide
and murder.  (I read somewhere that enough money has been spent on the
PA by the USA to have made--- if prudently invested in productive
assets--- every Palestinian family a millionaire by now.  But that
would have made Arafat obsolete, and he does not want that--- at any
price.)

While it is a mistake to underestimate political (social, cultural,
economic, agricultural etc) complexities, it is also a mistake to
forget that at the center of any tangle of Gordian complexity, there
is also a fundamental set of principles which if not respected, will
thwart any attempt to reach a peaceful settlement.  Sadly, the sword
is often the resort which cuts the knot.

Finally, I have not seen Hamas say anything about making peace---
except by killing every last Jewish man, woman and child they possibly
can.

But then, duh, wut duz ah no?

God bless you!


subject: Re: Christianity killed more people than all the groups combined

text:
"Al Klein" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Correct. The "...government of the United States of America is not in any
sense founded on the Christian Religion..." However the nation of peoples
constituting the United States of America are overwhelmingly a nation of
Christians and thus paying adherence thereunto. There's a big distinction
between the two.

 --
Freethought110


author: Paul Hammond

text:
Al Klein <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
opposed
a
governmental
technically

And so what?  Did you forget to read Nima's post before you
attached this reply?  Does the "treaty of Tripoli" invalidate
the living experience of millions of Americans?

I don't think so!

Paul


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
"Robert Arvay" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It definitely shows.

I do not like Christian fundamentalists such as yourself. In fact, I despise
you people as much as your Muslim, Jewish and Baha'i counterparts.

Which included points that you cannot address.

That is errant nonesense and the propagandistic simplisticisms which the
American media corporate conglomerates have duped you into sheepishly
believing.

<big snip>


author: Al Klein

text:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:48:53 GMT, "Freethought110"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

And an even bigger one between freedom of religion and freedom to make
others adhere to it.


text:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:34:52 +0100, "Paul Hammond"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

Their experiences have nothing to do with those who haven't had those
experiences.


author: Robert Arvay

subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Greetings;

I don't despise you, Freethought.  Quite the contrary, I pray for
blessings upon you.
=================

"Freethought110" <[email]> wrote in message news:<newscache$1psayg$cqn1$[email]>...


text:
Al Klein <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You seem to be arguing that one sentence in a legal
document is somehow the "truth", and that the fact
that so many Americans are Christian is just
irrelevant somehow.  I'm afraid I just can't get my
head around the obtuseness of that idea.

Would you seriously argue that Christianity is not
still a powerful force in American culture and politics,
and that it played a defining role in shaping and
informing the history and culture of that country?

The very founding myths of the culture, and the
*reason* why religious tolerance, and the right
to religious self-determination are so highly valued
in the founding documents of the culture involve
the migration of dissenting Christians to a place
where they could live out their Christian ideals
free from the persecutions of other Christians.

There's just no getting around that fact.

And, for the record, because I think you may be under
a misapprehension about me, I am *not* a Christian,
I'm agnostic.

Paul


text:
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:10:34 +0100, "Paul Hammond"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

Since most of the founders of the U. S. weren't Christian (in fact
many of them held Christianity in contempt or worse), why would they
have founded a Christian nation?

It's totally irrelevant to whether the U. S. is a Christian nation
not, as you're arguing, to whether the U. S. is a nation of
Christians.

Of course not.
,

Originally?  Only by its absence.

Sorry, but the founding fathers were, for the most parts, Deists, not
Christians, so they'd have no "myths of Christianity" on which to
found the nation.  Christians seem to forget that one little annoying
fact and, instead, choose to believe that this nation was founded by
Christians who had escaped religious prosecution.  It wasn't.

The fact that the nation was founded by Christians, remembering the
flight of other Christians from persecution?  There's no such "fact"
to get around - it never happened.

Atheistic agnostic or theistic agnostic?  Or are you using "agnostic"
to mean that you refuse to take sides?


author: Peter

text:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:55:42 -0400, Al Klein <[email]> wrote:

I tell you what the diffference is : The Klan is a very very small
part of the Christian community,  However the Radical Islam controls a
majority of the murders in Islam.


author: Randy Burns

text:
Al Klein <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Deism is a response "within" Christianity.  You can't really say that
European Deists are "non-Christians," particularly when their children and
grand children grew up to be Christians.

Cheers, Randy


text:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 00:54:56 GMT, Peter <[email]> posted
in alt.atheism:

Radical Islamic suicide bombers are a very small part of the Moslem
community.  However the Klan controls a majority of the racists in
Christianity.

IOW, there's no difference.


author: Jeff Laventure

text:
"Al Klein" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Hold it.  When the US went after Osama and attacked the regime in
Afghanistan, there were many Muslims screaming it was an attack on Islam.
Now you are disassociating Islam from so-called radicals.  Which is it?
Either it is wrong to blame all of Islam for the wrong doings of a few or it
is wrong to blame others for demanding the few be punished.


author: Admiral Bob

text:
Al Klein <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

To my mind, this is reductionist gibberish. The Catholic population of
Africa alone is greater than the entire Christian community of the US.


author: stoney

text:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 23:48:44 GMT, " Jeff Laventure"
<[email]>, Message ID:
<w95V8.1209$[email]> wrote in
alt.atheism;

Al turned Peter's rhetoric against him.


text:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 23:48:44 GMT, " Jeff Laventure"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

The radicals are as much a part of Islam as Christian radicals are a
part of Christianity.

And EXACTLY the same is true of Christianity.  We're talking about the
differences between Christianity and Islam, not the differences
between radical and mainstream Islam.


text:
On 4 Jul 2002 18:34:02 -0700, [email] (Admiral Bob)
posted in alt.atheism:

Are you saying that the majority of Catholics in Africa are racist?


author: Kanwal Rahman

subject: a wild thought

text:
"the deeepr sorrow craves into your being the more joy it can contain"

"sorrows"."pain","diappointment","depression".We all wanna get rid of
them but there are some peopl who love them who want to keep them.cuz
they value sincerity,they value loyality, they value faithfullness.who
could be  more faithful then my sorrows, they leave me never until i
leave them,who could be more sicere then my lonliness,it is there with
me when everyone else has left.who could be more loyal then my pain
cuz it churns in my heart when emptiness could have killed me.who
could enable a blind to see but the darkness,cuz it reveals to me
fears of my heart it shows me which i coulnot see in the bright light.
Ask me who is my best buddy my sighs, my lonliness, my gloom, and the
silence that speaks to me secrets of life,secrets that the sky holds
trapped inside each star.silence in which i can hear silent cries of
my wounded heart.
My sorrow are my joys they make me complete,they bring me closer to
life.they making me stroing enough to die everyday and taking a new
birth with the setting of the sun.yes i m the daughter of night.yes i
am drowned in the ultimate gloom,but what you call gloom, makes my
heart shine brighter then the sun.it steels shimmer of the stars and
conceal it inside my each tear.
my sorrows my blues.My ultimate comapanion.which know no deciet,which
knows no turning back on me.
let the stillness in moment catch the motion of my tears,slowly they
fall in the arms of my fears.
senselessness in itself is a freedom.when you know not what you
say,yet every word you say is soaked in truth.


author: Qexugir

subject: Re: a wild thought

text:
Kanwal Rahman wrote:

Congratulations on your insight, because I have a feeling it came to you
in the best possible way - not as a result of reading someone else's
thoughts on the subject, but out of your own depths and from the force of
experience.  It almost doesn't matter whether anyone else on the earth has
ever had the same insight before.

To paraphrase an established thinker, sorrow and joy are twins that either
remain small together or grow large together.

Qexugir


author: Peter F

subject: Re: a wild thought

text:
To feel deeply in any sort of way - pleasurable/beautiful "ways" not the
least - it is important not to have got into a habit of supressing foul
(painful) feelings.

It is doubly unfortunate to have been in a lot of SHITS ("selective
Hibernation" imploring type situations) because "selective Hibernation"
constrains consciousness including one's readiness to have deeply felt
positive experiences in what remains of one's life.

I have here used the word "Hibernation" _not_ entirely metaphorically, since
there are relatively simple and conservative neuropsychological reasons for
believing that when signals sent by reticular activating type neurons are
being selectively blocked (or "gated"), selective unconsciousness (primarily
of painful personal realities, and of personal memories of past such
realites) results.

P


author: JusUK

subject: Re: a wild thought

text:
"the deeepr sorrow craves into your being the more joy it can contain"

Initial thought from Kahlil Gibran (very nice book), I like a lot of the
rest as well.


author: fasgnadh

subject:
Re: Atheism - less than1% of population  B^D  95% of non-believers
 REJECT atheism!

text:
On 11/11/2010 7:39 AM, Syd M. wrote:

That atheism is as insignificant and pointless as your posts!

---------

"At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one half of the world's
population identified itself as either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant,
Hindu or Buddhist, and 100 years of secularism, and technological
advancement, and scientific progress later and that number is now
two thirds.

So, for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time to change
the subject! It's time to talk about something else , because
it's not happening at all.

People are becoming more religious, not less religious,
and religion itself is also evolving"

   - Dr Reza Aslan

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/2929354.htm


author: Les Hellawell

subject: Re: Atheism - less than1% of population  B^D  95% of non-believers REJECT atheism!

text:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:00:19 +1100, fasgnadh <[email]>
wrote:

Obviously not to you it isn't nor to the loons who post here under
various disguises. Apart from Duke, who is clearly proud to be
an RC,  none of you seem willing to associate your real names
with your religion. If you have something to hide...

Whereas most of the atheists on this group are proud to
associate their real names with being atheist.

Interesting contast yes?

In no way are we responsible for Christianity.


text:
On 15/11/2010 12:16 AM, Les Hellawell wrote:

Not obvious at all..

His post was clearly so pointless he was ASKING for one!   B^D

Do you have problems parsing English or are you simply
incapable of comprehension

But I clearly stated it is.  Perhaps your problem is BOTH
an inability to understand plain English and an inability to
comprehend obvious meaning. And so, you PROJECT your
incomprehension onto others.

Oh, who knows what Slimer and Trance Stupor think, only you are stupid
enough to formulate your entire response around your pretence to possess
psychic powers.

What 'religion'?  I critique militant atheism, when did that become a
'religion'?

I was critiquing militant fundie religion and clerical paedophiles
long before the atheists came to my attention.

Why do you illogical atheist nutters insist that any criticism
of atheism means the critic is religious?

In case you haven't noticed it is not only the 80% of Americans who
are religious who reject rabid militant atheism, but also NINETY
FIVE PERCENT of the netire 'No religion specified' group!!!   8^o

  Subject: Re: US religious now at 85% - It's GOD in a LANDSLIDE!!!
# -Atheists wallow at 2.3% worldwide, 0.7% in the USA!  -a pitiful
# fraction of the minority of non-believers!  B^D
#
# From: fasgnadh <[email]>
# Newsgroups:
# alt.atheism,aus.religion,alt.religion,aus.politics,
# alt.politics.republicans, alt.politics.democrats,uk.politics.misc
# Message-ID: <8QNtl.26734$[email]>
# Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:07:32 GMT
#
# American Religious Identification Survey, Summary Report March 2009:
#
# "Self-identification of U.S. Adult Population by Religious Tradition
#
#                                 2008
#
# Non- religious          34,169,000  (15%)
#
# Atheists                 1,621,000  (0.7%)
#
#

1,621,000 / 34,169,000 =>  5%

    Not just the majority religious, but also 95% of
    the NON religious repudiate atheism!                8^o

You are the one running from the issue with ad hom attacks.  B^]

I admit that my contempt for your incoherent rambling, gutless
lies and misrepresentation is barely concealable.

Slimer
Panamafraud
Syd M(oron).
Trance Stupor
bpuharic
Virgin
Bimbo
Uncle Vic
Doc Smartarse
Bukakke
Father Haskell
Olrik the Unworthy
Reverend Dave
Buddythunder
Devils Advocaat

Just a few of the reasons why you are talking shite, again.

Between your opinions and the facts?

Look, we all know that when you can't debate the facts
you have to invent bullshit to talk about.

Of course not, atheists have never built a hospital, let
alone a great and enduring civilisation, EVERY atheist state
has been a totalitarian shithole.

If atheists were not hypocrites they would go and live in
the last remaining atheist regime, North Korea, instead of
parasitically sponging off the majority religious societies
that provide them with free, open, progressive, prosperous,
tolerant secular democratic states in which to live. I don't
know of any other minority of hate filled bigots so
insignificantly small and simultaneously so ungrateful to the
religious society which has given them so much.

Victims of atheist regimes constantly attempt to escape
to majority religious societies based on spiritual values,
how come none of you atheist HYPOCRITES ever put your money
where your mouth is and escape from the societies you
claim are polluted by religion to the North Korean Atheist
Paradise?

Interesting contrast, yes?

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA

In no way are WE responsible for the >70,000,000 dead victims of
the atheist regimes.

The flag of the United Kingdom reveals the origins of the
laws and values by which you live, composed, as it is
of the crosses of St George, St Andrew and St Patrick.   ;-)

The Welsh are still pissed off that the flag of St David is
not included. but you can't expect the English to care.

---------

"At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one half of the world's
population identified itself as either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant,
Hindu or Buddhist, and 100 years of secularism, and technological
advancement, and scientific progress later and that number is now
two thirds.

So, for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
conversations with "The Death of God"  .. it's time to change
the subject! It's time to talk about something else , because
it's not happening at all.

People are becoming more religious, not less religious,
and religion itself is also evolving"

   - Dr Reza Aslan

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/2929354.htm


author: [redacted]

text:
"Les Hellawell" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The main point is that if it is posted by fags - it's nothing more piles of
bull shit lies.
There is no reason to rebut since nothing of any value has ever been
presented - and rebuttals are always ignored.


text:
On 16/11/2010 2:59 AM, [email] wrote:

  Not obvious at all..

  His post was clearly so pointless he was ASKING for one! B^D

  Do you have problems parsing English or are you simply
  incapable of comprehension

  But I clearly stated it is. Perhaps your problem is BOTH
  an inability to understand plain English and an inability to
  comprehend obvious meaning. And so, you PROJECT your
  incomprehension onto others.

Sure, but unlike the unproven accusations of atheists I like to
demonstrate their falsehoods!

  Oh, who knows what Slimer and Trance Stupor think, only you are stupid
  enough to formulate your entire response around your pretence to possess
  psychic powers.

  What 'religion'? I critique militant atheism, when did that become a
  'religion'?

  I was critiquing militant fundie religion and clerical paedophiles
  long before the atheists came to my attention.

  Why do you illogical atheist nutters insist that any criticism
  of atheism means the critic is religious?

  In case you haven't noticed it is not only the 80% of Americans who
  are religious who reject rabid militant atheism, but also NINETY
  FIVE PERCENT of the netire 'No religion specified' group!!! 8^o

  Subject: Re: US religious now at 85% - It's GOD in a LANDSLIDE!!!
  # -Atheists wallow at 2.3% worldwide, 0.7% in the USA! -a pitiful
  # fraction of the minority of non-believers! B^D
  #
  # From: fasgnadh <[email]>
  # Newsgroups:
  # alt.atheism,aus.religion,alt.religion,aus.politics,
  # alt.politics.republicans, alt.politics.democrats,uk.politics.misc
  # Message-ID: <8QNtl.26734$[email]>
  # Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:07:32 GMT
  #
  # American Religious Identification Survey, Summary Report March 2009:
  #
  # "Self-identification of U.S. Adult Population by Religious Tradition
  #
  # 2008
  #
  # Non- religious 34,169,000 (15%)
  #
  # Atheists 1,621,000 (0.7%)
  #
  #

  1,621,000 / 34,169,000 => 5%
                                              B^D

  Not just the majority religious, but also 95% of
  the NON religious repudiate atheism! 8^o

  You are the one running from the issue with ad hom attacks. B^]

  I admit that my contempt for your incoherent rambling, gutless
  lies and misrepresentation is barely concealable.

  Slimer
  Panamafraud
  Syd M(oron).
  Trance Stupor
  bpuharic
  Virgin
  Bimbo
  Uncle Vic
  Doc Smartarse
  Bukakke
  Father Haskell
  Olrik the Unworthy
  Reverend Dave
  Buddythunder
  Devils Advocaat

  Just a few of the reasons why you are talking shite, again.

  Between your opinions and the facts?

  Look, we all know that when you can't debate the facts
  you have to invent bullshit to talk about.

There is no 'reason' in atheist posts AT ALL,
there is no facts to challenge, no sense to discern,
no argument to demolish..  mere ASSERTION and ad hom

That is why atheism is in global decline and why atheists
are the most distrusted, irrelevant minority in the USA;

# Atheists Identified as Americaï¿½s Most Distrusted Minority"
#  - American Sociological Association, ASA NEWS
#
# "A survey by sociologists at the University of Minnesota
# found that atheists are ï¿½Americaï¿½s most distrusted minority.ï¿½
#
# "From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households,
# university researchers found that Americans rate atheists
# below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and
# other minority groups in ï¿½sharing their vision of
# American society.ï¿½
#
# Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are
# least willing to allow their children to marry.
#
# Even though atheists are few in number, not formally
# organized and relatively hard to publicly identify,
# they are seen as a threat to the American way of life
# by a large portion of the American public.
#
# Many of the studyï¿½s respondents associated atheism with
# an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal
# behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.
#
# Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting
# social disorder is behind the findings.
# ï¿½Americans believe they share more than rules and
# procedures with their fellow citizensï¿½they share an
# understanding of right and wrong,ï¿½ she said. ï¿½Our
# findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as
# self-interested individuals who are not concerned
# with the common good.ï¿½
#
# The study is co-authored by assistant professor
# Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann.
# Itï¿½s the first in a series of national studies conducted
# the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded
# by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation
# that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in
# the contemporary United States."

  Of course not, atheists have never built a hospital, let
  alone a great and enduring civilisation, EVERY atheist state
  has been a totalitarian shithole.

  If atheists were not hypocrites they would go and live in
  the last remaining atheist regime, North Korea, instead of
  parasitically sponging off the majority religious societies
  that provide them with free, open, progressive, prosperous,
  tolerant secular democratic states in which to live. I don't
  know of any other minority of hate filled bigots so
  insignificantly small and simultaneously so ungrateful to the
  religious society which has given them so much.

  Victims of atheist regimes constantly attempt to escape
  to majority religious societies based on spiritual values,
  how come none of you atheist HYPOCRITES ever put your money
  where your mouth is and escape from the societies you
  claim are polluted by religion to the North Korean Atheist
  Paradise?

  Interesting contrast, yes?

  BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA

  In no way are WE responsible for the >70,000,000 dead victims of
  the atheist regimes.

  The flag of the United Kingdom reveals the origins of the
  laws and values by which you live, composed, as it is
  of the crosses of St George, St Andrew and St Patrick. ;-)

  The Welsh are still pissed off that the flag of St David is
  not included. but you can't expect the English to care.

  ---------

  "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one half of the world's
  population identified itself as either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant,
  Hindu or Buddhist, and 100 years of secularism, and technological
  advancement, and scientific progress later and that number is now
  two thirds.

  So, for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
  conversations with "The Death of God" .. it's time to change
  the subject! It's time to talk about something else , because
  it's not happening at all.

  People are becoming more religious, not less religious,
  and religion itself is also evolving"

  - Dr Reza Aslan

  http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/2929354.htm

---------

"Mr Abbott made a semi-apology for going back on
his word over the provision in the parliamentary
agreement - hammered out between government,
opposition and those on the crossbenches -
for pairing the Speaker and Deputy Speaker."
     - The Age 1/10/2010

"Last week, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott reneged
  on a deal on voting rights..
  Mr Abbott again defended his decision to break the deal"

        -   SMH 28/9/2010

    "Tony Abbott and his wife Margie,
       ...set aside their differences and prayed for
           mutual trust, kindness and love."

        - The Australian 28/9/2010

Tony Abbott, Economic Management - FAIL:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABtlI2Wk3Ws

Tony Abbott. telling the truth - Fail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYzLIywCiA

Tony Abbott - his word is WORTHLESS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5ljcri6Nk

---------

"The coalition won more votes and more seats than
  our opponents but sadly we did not get the
  opportunity to form a government,'
      - Tony Abbott, betraying truth and integrity.

Why is Tony Abbott such a LIAR and DREADFULLY BAD LOSER?

He can't accept that Gillard WON, and instead the
dishonest little grub is trying to claim the government
is NOT Legitimate!  8^o  He does this by blatantly LYING
that he got the majority of seats and the majority
of votes!

If the pathetic fraud got the majority of seats he would
be sworn in as the New Government. He isn't because he DIDN'T!

If the Government is constitutionally Illegitimate, then why
hasn't he taken legal action?   The answer is, he's a filthy LIAR!
and the Lieberals, falsely maligning the legitimacy
of our democracy are tantamount to TREASON

B^D  Tony Abbott is back to the REAL Tony!  B^[

And he did NOT get the majority of votes, the ALP did:

                       	      Votes  	   Percentage %
Australian Labor Party 	    6,216,445        50.12
Liberal/National Coalition  6,185,919        49.88

http://vtr.aec.gov.au/     Final Tally


text:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 07:09:35 +1100, fasgnadh <[email]>
wrote:

<snip more chaff blowing in the wind>


text:
Les Hellawell cuts and runs after his bullshit was exposed and mocked:

Why is the ONLY response atheists can manage when confronted
with questions about atheist history to SNIP and RUN AWAY???  8^o

Atheists often claim that others are liars, but what you notice
is that they NEVER have any proof, they can't even cite any examples
from the posts THEY claim are lies.

Apparenly they just want you to take them on faith!    B^]

to believe them without proof...   B^D

Priceless!

No wonder they are in decline, they are intellectually dishonest
traducers..   unchanged since the heyday of Pravda..

Lets see what facts they can't face, again:

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA

No wonder the atheists have all run away from these statistics from
ARIS!!!!!!

And this wins the AQOTM of the month for Irony:

B^D  Once again I not only called MY shots,
but pre-emptively predicted THEIRS!

It's easy because the gutless liars are SO predictable!

As soon as his BULLSHIT was exposed with some simply obtained FACTS..

Les Howler folded faster than the deckchairs on the Titanic!!!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA

When you witness Lying Les's gutless abandonment of the field, you
can see why atheists are so distrusted and despised.

Every lie he told was rebutted, every demand he show evidence for HIS
false claims of lying by myself and others, shows him RUNNING AWAY.

Run Chicken Little..  see if you can catch alt.atheisms longest
running cowardly liar.. Bukakke!

B^]

If they had, they would have CHALLENGED this statement!!!  8^o

If my text was lies they would have EXPOSED those lies with PROOF
and humiliated me in public!!!!!!!

The fact they have not means they CANNOT!!!

And that is why the SNIP, RUN and leave nothing but LIES by them,
unproven accusations, because they are false, and my critique
of atheist history remains without even an attempot at rebuttal...

    because those gutless propagandists CANNOT REFUTE THE TRUTH!

    B^D

  ---------

  "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one half of the world's
  population identified itself as either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant,
  Hindu or Buddhist, and 100 years of secularism, and technological
  advancement, and scientific progress later and that number is now
  two thirds.

  So, for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
  conversations with "The Death of God" .. it's time to change
  the subject! It's time to talk about something else , because
  it's not happening at all.

  People are becoming more religious, not less religious,
  and religion itself is also evolving"

  - Dr Reza Aslan

  http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/2929354.htm


text:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:13:40 +1100, fasgnadh <[email]>
wrote:

Because all you posted was the same chaff previously dealt with.

<The same chaff blown away>


author: bpuharic

text:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:13:40 +1100, fasgnadh <[email]>
wrote:

so far he's excused nazi persecution of jews, spanish murder of
christians, and the rwandan genocide

he hates gays as well...typical nazi sympathizer


text:
Les Hellawell - another atheist lightweight routed and in retreat!: B^D

Snipping and running a second time after prfeviously snipping and
running is not 'dealing with' anything!   It's just running away
because you can't deal.   B^]

Run along lightweight, no serious debater would bother with you
in future because when you are pushed to a corner you just
fold faster than the deck chairs on the Titanic and run away crying
like a little girl.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAA

This weak tossers hot air couldn't blow anything away, and certainly
doesn't deal with the challenges put to him, from which he is FLEEING!  B^D

Note what the atheists tremble and hide from, anyone who asks
them to provide evidence to back up their lies and slanders:

When cornered Les and his cronies start accusing people of being liars..

but as here, when challenged for examples of the alleged lies, they
fold and flee!

They are so full of shit you can SMELL THEM FROM HERE!   B^D

IF their claims about others were true, they would document the lies,
embarass the liars publicly and crow about humiliating them.

Instead, I have exposed their lies, humiliated them publicly and
now laugh at their retreating backs.

The atheists are terrified of the truth!   B^]

  Lets see what facts they can't face, again:

That was the first challenge to Les's slander and abuse, and he avoided
it then as he is now.

He was already running out of steam at that early stage, couldn't hold
up his end of any rational debatge and had thus resorted to bare faced
lying.. in this case, groundshifting from the topic to baseless
insinuation that critics of atheism are cowards because they won't
reveal their religion...  8^o  He could have got away with that,
it sounds plausible, except that you don't have to be a theist to
criticise atheism..  he set a poisonous trap of slander and lies,
and then FELL IN IT!    B^D

As in the days of the Soviet Show Trials, the atheists make wild and
unsubstantiated accusations..  but ask for evidence, as I did here,
and they run like frightened children, huddle under their rocks,
and lick each others wounds!    B^D

It's hilarious to watch!  B^]

  BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA

  No wonder the atheists have all run away from these statistics from
  ARIS!!!!!!

  And this wins the AQOTM of the month for Irony:

Les is a lightweight, couldn't even last two rounds!  B^D

Les has ended as he began, TELLING BARE FACED LIES

  As soon as his BULLSHIT was exposed with some simply obtained FACTS..

  Les Howler folded faster than the deckchairs on the Titanic!!!

  BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAA

  When you witness Lying Les's gutless abandonment of the field, you
  can see why atheists are so distrusted and despised.

  Every lie he told was rebutted, every demand he show evidence for HIS
  false claims of lying by myself and others, shows him RUNNING AWAY.

  Run Chicken Little.. see if you can catch alt.atheisms longest
  running cowardly liar.. Bukakke!

  B^]

Not one atheist could find ANY example to falsify this statement,
because ATHEISM is SOCIALLY USELESS!    B^p

Atheists could not refute a SINGLE point I made, they could
not challenge a single indictment of their tyrannical regimes,
nor could they find a single example of a decent democratic atheist
regime in history...

If atheists had ANY rebuttal, they would have used it to
refute their NEMESIS...    but they abandoned the field...

B^D  Truth shines light on those cockroaches, scurrying away!   B^]

  ---------

  "At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one half of the world's
  population identified itself as either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant,
  Hindu or Buddhist, and 100 years of secularism, and technological
  advancement, and scientific progress later and that number is now
  two thirds.

  So, for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
  conversations with "The Death of God" .. it's time to change
  the subject! It's time to talk about something else , because
  it's not happening at all.

  People are becoming more religious, not less religious,
  and religion itself is also evolving"

  - Dr Reza Aslan

  http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/2929354.htm


text:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 06:31:18 -0500, bpuharic <[email]> wrote:

Note how he also glossess over the White Orthodox Christian
terror reaction to their last despot being deposed.

They would sweep into villages murdering all the women,
men and children without mercy. The responce was equally
brutal. Spontanously the whole of Russian had broken down
into little more than a brutal murderng hate filled mob.

After Centuries of one brutal Christian despot after another
supported by the Orthodox church where the majority were
little more than half starved slaves what else would you expect?
WW1 was just the catalyst.

This is a powerful lesson from history as to the dangers
of uncontrolled Christian power. Every Christian regime
has been the same, it is why people fled to the New World
and set up a state that kept Christianity at arms length

The USA is not because of Christianity but the reaction
against it. A land where religion is permitted but not
allowed to take control.


subject: Fasgnadh shows signs of entering his dotage with serious short term memory problems

text:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 23:20:52 +1100, fasgnadh <[email]>
wrote:

OK if you insists I will repeat ny post since Chaff  seem to be having
short term memory problems on top of his concentration and
comprehension difficulties. I blame long term exposure to Christianity

repeated post
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Chaff has chopped my post into tiny little piieces and is
commenting on each little bit entirely out of context. I am
restoring what I wrote so it is back in context.

[original context]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously not to you it isn't nor to the loons who post here under
various disguises.  ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was commenting on what you said as above and nothing
more here as should be clear now the phrase is back in
context. At least try to keep up and concentrate

[original context]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously not to you it isn't nor to the loons who post here under
various disguises.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back in context it is clear what Chaff actually said,  and it was
that I commented upon

This of course completely invalidates his follow up
comments. Who is the one deliberately lying here?

[original context
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously not to you it isn't nor to the loons who post here under
various disguises.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I certainly knew that if I pushed Slika hard enough you would
emerge from behind your mask and lo here you are in a frantic
flood of posts clearly hopping mad.

Gotcha :-)

'Militant atheism' is your straw man Chaff. I do not answer for
your strawmen.

All I have ever seen from you is an extreme passionate hatred
of atheists. Maybe you might have pretended to attack theists
in order to confuse us. We know you like to try and do that. I
would not put any lie or subtefuge past you but I am just
speculating having never seen any of these examples.

That's not the reason why I regard you as a rabid theists.
You hatred is deep and passionate. There is no reason why
an agnostic should hate us with such passion as you do. Indeed
many of us are agonistic as well as atheist.

Lying is your trade. For sure you are a fundy.

Yes because of the considerable lies told about us. You lot
control what lies go up on your church walls. This stigma
does not apply to UK atheists to anything like the same
extent As non believers grow this will diminish with time.

In any case it's what people believe or
do not believe that matters not the label they use.

To me the former group is the more important. This is
a group of people who will bring up their children without
religious indoctrination.  Thewir children will not grow
up with a church going culture as the norm as their
parents, for whatever reason have simply dropped
out.
I
f you do not get them when young and vilnerable you have
lost them and the generations that follow.

Whether they call themselves 'non religious or atheist
or even agnostic the church has lost them, their children
and their childrens children.

That is far more important to you than it is to
us.

As I say that is because the majority religious have by
far the loudest voice and make sure people are misinformed.
Nor does it matter what labels people use. The moment
a person stops walking into a church you have lost them.

[original context
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously not to you it isn't nor to the loons who post here under
various disguises. Apart from Duke, who is clearly proud to be
an RC,  none of you seem willing to associate your real names
with your religion. If you have something to hide...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly I had dealt with your comment that "atheism is as
insignificant".  It clearly is to you,  otherwise why this rash
of frantic posts desperately trying to make us look bad?

If we were as insignificant as you make out you would
not care a hoor about us.

One paragraph an incoherent ramble?  That's rich coming
from one who posts reams of the stuff. That's the pot
calling the fine bone China black :-)

You have must have posted hundreds of words to every
one of mine in reply Chaff. LOL

[Original context]
--------------------------------------------

Obviously not to you it isn't nor to the loons who post here under
various disguises. Apart from Duke, who is clearly proud to be
an RC,  none of you seem willing to associate your real names
with your religion. If you have something to hide...

Whereas most of the atheists on this group are proud to
associate their real names with being atheist.

Interesting contast yes?
-------------------------------------------------

Just run by me again who it was that had comprehension
problems?

A moot point since there has never been any atheist
states only Communist and religious dictarorships and
we all know just how bad they have been

In case you didn't know
Hospital are built by the secular democratic state in this country.

Which most of us voted for and wllingly pay National Insurance
Contributions to pay for them.

Atheists and Christians alike make their fair contrbution
and we all benefit in equal measure.

I would not want it any other way.

I prefer a secular democratic regime thank you.

Maybe you should  consider moving to to a
religious controlled hell hole  as hat seem to be what you
desire.  You seem to like China, why not move there?

The UK no longer has a majority religious society
nor has most of Europe. I am quite happy where
I am thank you. You can keep your communist and
religious hell holes thank you

That is just a silly comment.

Wales is not and never has been an independant Kingdom
nor did it ever have a King. When the Crowns were united
so were their flags.

Now who is ramblng off the point

Indeed I think you have waffled on long enough.


author: Spartakus

subject: The Vatican directed bishops to cover up sex crimes of priests

text:
A confidential Vatican document that defines church policy calling for
absolute secrecy when it comes to sexual abuse by priests has come to
light:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

The document was written in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, and it
instructs bishops on how to handle criminal behavior on the part of
priests, especially the "worst crime" - sexual assault, or sex with
youths of either gender or with animals.

Ottaviani, btw, was a leading member of what is now called the "Sacred
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith", holding the title of
Prefect Emeritus.  The Sacred Congregation used be called the
Inquisition.

According to the document, these cases are to be handled "in the most
secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence".  Everyone,
including the alleged victim, is to observe strict secrecy, "under the
penalty of excommunication."


author: Marie A.

subject: Re: The Vatican directed bishops to cover up sex crimes of priests

text:
[email] (Spartakus) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Gee, Distortakus, come another war, does this mean that you won't be
directing the rest of us to review the Catholic church's position on
peace?

Cordially, Marie


author: james g. keegan jr.

text:
[email] (Marie A.) wrote in
news:[email]:

when you attack someone's name, rather than the issue being
discussed, it almost always means they caught you lying again,
doesn't it?


text:
[email] (Marie A.) wrote...

Let me respond to your question with an analogous question: now that
Bill Bennett's gambling addiction is a matter of public record, do you
think it's time to reconsider Pete Rose's banishment from baseball and
put him in the Hall of Fame?

I'm touched by your concern, Marie, really.  You wish for me to take
the easy way, applying a strict either/or, binary approach to these
issues.  That would make things much more simple and easy to
understand, wouldn't it?  Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in
the Real World[tm], cupcake, so I will continue to maintain a certain
ambivalence about the Catholic Church, as I described in Message-ID:
<[email]>:

     "I should disclaim that I am ambivalent about the Catholic
      Church.  I acknowledge that the Church has been a generous
      patron of the arts, of education and of outreach to the
      poor.  I live in the shadow of St. Paul's Cathedral in
      St. Paul, Minnesota, and I bask daily in the splendor of
      its architecture, and I've attended concerts enhanced by
      its acoustics.

     "Just a few miles away, St. Thomas University and St.
      Catherine's College continue to be small galaxies of
      enlightened inquiry, despite the Pope's attempts to
      make them into centers of Vatican-style theological
      correctness.

     "Good on the Church for supporting the creation of
      beauty and enlightment!

      [...]

     "The Church's heirarchy cannot and probably will never
      admit any error on their parts.  To do so would be to
      admit that they really aren't in communion with the Holy
      Spirit, or that their connection to the Holy Spirit
      depends on other factors than the authority allegedly
      passed down to them from Peter.  And if they admit that,
      their game is up.

     "There is no addiction so corrupting and so difficult to
      let go of as the addiction to power.


text:
[email] (Spartakus) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

(snip)

What utter drivel! Sir, your kind absolutely loathes the Catholic
church. You despise it with every fiber of your being. But being the
monumental hypocrite you are, you're not above ingratiating yourself
with your sworn enemy where advancing your leftist politics demands a
little ass-kissing. Your numbers are legion, Spartakus, and the
liberal Jewish community it seems has more than their share of them. I
find this nauseating in the extreme.

Cordially, Marie


text:
[email] (Marie A.) wrote...

How conveeeeeeeenient!  Define a group called "your kind", give
whatever attributes you need to make your point and then put me in it.
 That's a neat trick; did you get a free whoopie cushion when you
bought it from your local magic and gag gift shop?

Actually, the *real* hypocrisy would be to pretend to dislike
everything Catholic while enjoying the fruits of Catholic patronage,
like music, for example.  Did you know that several Italian
Renaissance and Baroque composers (like Vivaldi) were priests, and
that Mozart, Schubert, Bruckner and Messiaen were faithful Catholics?
(Although Mozart drove his patron, the Archbishop of Salzburg, to
distraction, and Schubert refused to include the Latin words for "I
believe in one catholic and apostolic church" in any of his sacred
music.)

Whereas your irritability, incomprehension, mindlessness and
ignorance, accompanied by your propensity for lying and weaseling,
leave you wide open to lurching from one embarrassing, self-inflicted
indignity to the next, as regularly as cats shed dander.  Welcome to
your own nightmare.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just as nausea is in the gizzard
of the too-sensitive cave newt.  If all this is too much for you, I
suggest rec.pet.cats.


text:
[email] (Marie A.) wrote in
news:[email]:

interesting that you felt it necessary to delete it before you
misreprsented it.

*chuckle*


author: Melanie

subject: Re: Abortion: respecting rights of mother and fetus

text:
Ray Fischer wrote:

Ray, A weapon will never kill anyone, nor does the ownership of a weapon
mean that you will kill anyone.  Most here believe self-defense to be
legitimate whether it be abortion or someone threatening your life with a
weapon. A closer analogy would be whether or not someone has a right to
shoot if they are not clear as to whether or not the target might be
another person.  If you aren't sure, and you shoot and kill someone, you
are guilty of a crime.

--Melanie


author: Erik Falentijn

subject: Liguo Sun Award

text:
Dear discussers,

In honor of a great socially involved man I'd like to propose to install
a new award on this great discussiongroup.

The man I am talking about is always courtious, honorable, compassionate
and isn't the least bit biassed. No matter what subject is discussed he
is there with a profound wish to help his discussionpartner to have new
brave insights.

If one of you ought to think that he is doing this with doubtable
reasons, you are wrong. This man is completely altruistic. He never
writes for his own benefit. He is a true servant of others and of love.

His best qualities are these:
He'd never condemn a human being.
He is always speaking from his heart.
He is humble and polite.
Nothing can drive him to anger.
He's always there to help out, where there is ignorance.

This great man is ofcourse Liguo Sun. He has helped all of us to see
clearly our wrong views, especially about HH The Dalai Lama and Tibet.
In honor of the learned  Liguo Sun I'd like to dedicate a new Award:
THE LIGUO SUN AWARD.

For those of you who have never read the comments of Liguo Sun, I have
selected some of his finest remarks:
"Why would a bodhisattva/buddha care about slanders? If he wouldn't
care,
  why should you?"
"He did not say anything about the Japanese equivalent of the
 denial of the Holocaust "
"When Buddhists lie like they did, you can't help wondering about the
fate
 of mankind "
"The Dalai Lama is certainly a Fundamentalist cult leader. Other cult
  leaders of equal fundamentalist fervor, such as Asahara Shoko of the
Aum
  Shinri Kyo, appear to have learnt from him."
" Tibet achieved a trade surplus (and a surprise to many) last year "
" When? Where did I do such a terrible thing? "
" The UFO guy had nothing to do with Buddhism, had he? "
" I write what I think, not what others think or say. By the way, who is

  your handler?  The Dalai Lama's pal Harrer? "
" Get it, Simpson woman? "
" You can't read English, eh?  Go back to school :-) :-) "
" [X]  is an uneducated person, without any college degree.
  [Y] ought to share his degrees with [X], [...] "
" "A owns B" is the same as "B belongs to A".  You never went
  to college, did you?  Even some jail birds get University of London
  degrees (or so I was told).  Why don't you look into that possibility?
"
" You are just too dumb: slavery was tolerated until the slave holders
   launched or joined rebellion.  Get it? "
" The more the [X] woman talks, the more evident that she's got no
  college education.  I would be surprised if she could score 500 verbal
on
  an SAT test, let alone the more advanced tests. "
" Unwritten Buddhist rules, more powerful than secular laws. "
" Your prose is such that everyone is confuded, including yourself. "
"  Truly terrible.  [....]  They said [.....]  Just like another of
their favorite lie: [....] Both are  100% lies. "
" You are both dumb and poorly educated.  I would bet that you have
never
  heard of Benjamin Franklin Butler.  You have no college degree you
dare
  mention. Yes, Wally Boy? "
" But Wally Boy ( == [X]) is  just too dumb to understand.  So
I will skip any discussion of what happened then and there. "
" Please stop lying and stop using the HK SAR, even remotely, as a base
to
challenge Chinese unity. "
" I guess I am not.  But I do know what's right and what's wrong about
[...] , which I don't think you do. "
" It is well-known that [...] "
" Hypocrisy is the hallmark of many human rights talkers, isn't it? "
" When was the last time you did try to do something about Cyprus for
instance? "
" You appear particularly dumb when you denounce everyone favoring
China's
long and time-honored sovereignty over Tibet as a pro-CCP person. "
" Wrong again, Wally Boy. [...] You have much to learn about the
American Civil War, Wally Boy. "
" Sorry about your ignorance. "
" Slander? Are you kidding?  "
" Who are you to argue with the Emperor or with Rene Grousset? "
" If you did not know what I am talking about, get more education. "
" The joke is on you, Wally Boy. "
" Your English is getting worse, Wally Boy.  Hire a new ghost writer. "
" Since you are Wally Boy, there's no way you can be an interface
between
anyone and Wally Boy. Get it? "
" You are just dishonest, which is made worse by your lack of education!
"
" Certainly, I may well be better educated than you are, but I still
need
education.  In fact, Confucius educated himself till his last breath.
Who am I to disagree with him?  Why are you, by the way, so sensitive to

the merest hint that you need more education? "
" You have lost an argument, after pretending know something about
American
history. "
" Ask Wing to discuss the fantasy figures your side keep rehashing,
[...] "
" Don't worry, you can accuse me of anything you wish. "
" Your lack of a college education is showing all the time, [X]. If I
were you, I would quit talking about international law. "
" Talks are cheap, even by human rights heroes like yourself. "
" Displease?  Your selection of issues in [....]  showed your
position is untenable. I am mighty pleased. "
" There ain't got no paradise on earth, dude. "
" When did that happen?  You are a proven liar.  Your pocket of tricks,
North American pun intended, must be really deep, but you are so
childish
that despite your age you do sound like a child member of the oldest
profession of the (Western) world. "
"  Wally Boy will soon again enter a hospital, perhaps for good this
time.
Life is unfair for a dumb person like you."

Yes, dear discussiongroup members. This is all the work of this truly
great individual: Liguo Sun.

I propose that he will receive, in honor of himself, the first  LIGUO
SUN AWARD.

Now we can all vote for his nomination..
Anyone against?


author: Liguo Sun

subject: Wally Boy award?

text:
Erik Falentijn <[email]> wrote:

        [...]

Are you sure you are not Wally Jansen.  Jansen appears to
have some Dutch connection :-)

-LS


author: Fred Martinsen

subject: Re: Liguo Sun Award

text:
In article <[email]>, Erik Falentijn <[email]> writes:

He'd never condemn a human being. ?

He is humble and polite. ?

He is always speaking from his heart. !
He is humble and polite. ?

He's always there to help out, where there is ignorance. !!  :-)

He'd never condemn a human being. ?
He is humble and polite. ?

He'd never condemn a human being. ?
He is humble and polite. ?
He is always speaking from his heart. !
he is there with a profound wish to help his discussionpartner to have new
brave insights. !!!!!

:-)

No votes for Liguo.

Fred M.


author: Glenys

subject: Re: Liguo Sun Award

text:
In message <[email]> Erik Falentijn wrote:

NO, of course not ... but please could you add to his list of achievements:

             "Liguo Sun wrote on Thur 19 Feb 1998 03:15:36 GMT
                Personal attacks have no place in these NGs."


subject: Re: Liguo Sun Award

text:
Please remove the Buddhist newsgroups from your replies.

Mick

Erik Falentijn wrote in message <[email]>...


subject: Re: The Dalai Lama and Terrorism

text:
It is far from well known in the West that the Dalai Lama's
Tibetan followers are not very popular in the independent
states south to China's Himalayan border.   Western news media
and commentators generally ignore any hint of their unpopularity.

In Nepal, the Royal Nepali Army (RNA) attacked the Dalai Lama's
armed organization ChuShi GangDrug, despite Western human
rights professionals' often emotional ravings about these
"freedom fighters". (See for example, Michael Harris Goodman's
book _The Last Dalai Lama_, Shambhala, Boston, 1986). In
the end, the RNA achieved their objective of eliminating the
Dalai Lama's terrorist bases in Nepal, giving credence to
the Royal Nepali Government's oft-repeated promise that Nepal
will not permit anyone to use its territories to subvert China's
Tibet.

Nepal has a relatively large population and a credible fighting
force, namely the RNA.  Another Himalayan state, the Kingdom of
Bhutan, has not been so lucky.  For many years the Yellow Hat
followers of the Dalai Lama who fled to Bhutan in 1959 had been
trying to subvert that Red Hat Tibetan Kingdom.  It is truly
ironic that folks who habitually accuse the evil and insidious
Chinese of "imperialism" or "imperialist practices" should try
to do unto others what they accuse their enemies of having
done.

In 1964, for example, the Bhutanese prime minister Jigme Dorji
was assassinated while the King was receiving medical treatment
in Switzerland.  The King rushed back to Bhutan and had his
own uncle summarily executed.  The King's Yellow Hat Tibetan
mistress and her father were involved in the plot but their
involvement was covered up.

Ten years later, the old King's son and successor Jigme Wangchuk
again became the target of an assassination attempt apparently
launched by a group of Yellow Hats, including not only the royal
mistress and her father but also at least 22 most prominent Tibetan
followers of His Holiness Dalai Lama.  The most prominent among them
was none other than Gyalo Thondrup, the Dalai Lama's older brother.

Some of the conspirators fled to India before they could be
brought to justice, but a number of them were arrested,
including Lhading, the personal representative of the Dalai
Lama in Bhutan.  For a self-serving explanation of the
episode, see the Dalai Lama's _Freedom In Exile_, page 191.
To understand the disastrous nature of the 1974 assassination
attempt and the seriousness of Gyalo Thondrup's role therein,
note the omission of his name from His Holiness's carefully
worded account and the total absence of any mention of the
Bhutan affair from Michael Harris Goodman's book.

It is amusing to realize that His Holiness wrote of the "many
[Yellow Hat] refugees [who] decided to leave Bhutan"  without
mentioning that his own brother escaped arrest by fleeing to
India.  It is even more ironic that he concealed the fact that
he ordered his remaining followers in Bhutan not to take out local
citizenship papers only to complain bitterly later that they were
regarded with suspicion and resentment in Bhutan.


author: Mike

subject: STUDY: Rhode Islanders Are Cranks

text:
Which state has the most pissed-off, disagreeable residents?

Congratulations Rhode Island!

http://www.abc6.com/news/featurestory/50623787.html
STUDY: Rhode Islanders Are Cranks
Chris Boardman
Jul 13, 2009

According to a recent study, Rhode Islanders aren't the friendliest
crowd of people in the United States. ABC6 Reporter John Guice has more
on this story.

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) - Rhode Islanders are a pretty cantankerous bunch.

At least according to a psychological study by researchers at Cambridge
University in England, which measured residents of all 50 U.S. states
and the District of Columbia on five personality dimensions - openness,
conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness and neuroticism.

Rhode Island ranked poorly in all.

The study found Ocean State residents to be the second-most neurotic,
and the sixth-most disagreeable.

The state was judged 40th on extraversion and 48th on conscientiousness.

University of Rhode Island historian Scott Molloy tells The Providence
Journal the results shouldn't be surprising since the state was founded
by Roger Williams, a malcontent tossed out of Massachusetts.


author: Laury

subject: Re: STUDY: Rhode Islanders Are Cranks

text:
"Mike" <[email]> wrote in message
news:h3gljl$hss$[email]...

I don't think this study has any scientific validity.

But I do think many visitors to RI don't get the mind-our-own-business
reserve. I think a large majority of RIers are natives with large, extended
families here. The limited social time they have tends to be spent with
families, or friends they've known for many years. Some other states..
Florida comes to mind... see large numbers of new arrivals, leaving families
behind and having to build new relationships.

Point in case: my parents went to FL for an extended stay this winter. And
they went with their friends from high school.

It's just different here.


subject: Re: STUDY: Rhode Islanders Are Cranks

text:
Sixth-most disagreeable state?  What are the first five?

C.C.


author: Dana Prescott

subject:
Re: Marriage and Homosexuality: Traditional Indigenous American
	Values

text:
On Jun 15, 2:32 am, "- .. --  Tim    .-." <[email]>
wrote:

Bingo, Tim. I couldn't have said it any more cogently myself.

Since "Christians" are a fully-encompassed subset of the species
"human", let me heighten the silliness of Veff/Jeff's statement by
just a single-word substitution:

Let me present, for Veff's rumination, a sermon honouring Blessed
Mykal Judge, the openly gay (though not sexually-transgressing)
Franciscan priest who was killed by falling debris, while ministering
to the firefighters of NYFD at the 9/11 attack site:

http://suncath.org/sermons/20070911.pdf

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


author: Pastor Dave

subject: Re: Marriage and Homosexuality: Traditional Indigenous American  Values

text:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 02:47:15 -0700 (PDT), Dana Prescott
<[email]> spake thusly:

If that's the vest you could have said it, then you
are not that bright, period!

Liberals always try to make themselves the winners
by default.  Note how they try to limit the scientific
data to only that which agrees with them, by saying
that "all reliable scientific and medical research
sources".  Note: ALL.  Note: RELIABLE.

In other words, by default, anything they don't want
to see, is "not reliable" and this is without ever having
looked at it and they try to discount any data that
doesn't agree with their claims.

Fact: There is no such thing as any scientific or medical
         data that proves that a person is born homosexual.

And anything they how, is just headlines, not science.
People claiming it is, does not make it so and every
single time this has occurred, these liberal idiots have
had to slink off into the shadows, when their claims
have been put to the test.


author: "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

subject: Re: Marriage and Homosexuality: Traditional Indigenous American Values

text:
"Dana Prescott" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
On Jun 15, 2:32 am, "- .. --  Tim    .-." <[email]>
wrote:

Bingo, Tim. I couldn't have said it any more cogently myself.

Since "Christians" are a fully-encompassed subset of the species
"human", let me heighten the silliness of Veff/Jeff's statement by
just a single-word substitution:

                                 __
~Let me present, for Veff's rumination, a sermon honouring Blessed
~Mykal Judge, the openly gay (though not sexually-transgressing)

If he had stopped fornicating and ceased from his immorality he was not
sinning any more in a way which brings condemnation.
But few same-sex couples have ceased their immorality, they want their cake
and to eat it.
Check out the homo-christian sites and see for yourself.


text:
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:

My argument is that peoples' private sex lives (or lack thereof) is no-one's
business but their own.  Prejudice against people because they love someone
of their own gender (which might or might not be expressed sexually,
depending on THEIR beliefs on the issue) cannot be justified.

Tim.


author: Ilena Rose

subject: The Pope ... Corporate Junk Science Flack Andy Langer & Ilena Rosenthal

text:
I guess you missed this part Coleah ... while falling over yourself to
defend embedded spy wannabe Andrew M Langer ... your choice of
"advocates" for those harmed by breast implants.

He ... and you ... fool only the other fools/shills.

Back to Andy and the Pope and what this thread is about ...
(regardless of your silly attempts at distraction:

As we were saying:

I praise the Pope once again for his stand against the illegal and
immoral Iraqui Invasion that Warmongers Coleah Penley Ayers and
Chicken Hawk Andy Langer used Usenet to advertise for.

My favorite thead ever ... was this one ...

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/browse_frm/thread/e6bca01b1cf91965/a2cb98f49ff3388d?q=author:[email]+pope&rnum=6#a2cb98f49ff3388d

After badgering and insulting me ... calling me an ignoramous and
worse .. trying to drag me into his paid political discussions ...
Andy demanded to know my stance on the horrific American Destruction
of Iraq ...

Calling the brave anti-war stand "indefensible" and using the usual
Politcal Propaganda that anyone who didn't believe in the War was
"Pro-Saddam" ... Andy filled Usenet with the Corporate War 'opinions'
... forgetting that there are options other than destroying a country
and a culture for dethroning dictators.

When I replied with an article from the Pope which mirrored my beliefs
... Corporate Lobbyist Andy ... as always being paid for his public
relations outreach (and ever lying about it) ...

Blurted out:

LOL ... suddenly ... my opinions were more important to Andy than the
Pope's!

For more on Who Andy Langer is and Who Pays Andy Langer while he posts
on Usenet:

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/AEI-PNAC.htm

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/LangerVsIlena.htm

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/AndysPosse.htm#Rag-tag
Andy's Team ... Quacks Barrett/Poleoy and their Guerrillas

Newsgroups: alt.support.breast-implant
From: Andrew Langer<[email]> - Find messages by this author
Local: Tues, Dec 16 2003 2:46 pm
Subject: OT: Question for Ilena Rosenthal Regarding Iraq

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/browse_frm/thread/e6bca01b1cf91965/a2cb98f49ff3388d?q=author:[email]+pope&rnum=6#a2cb98f49ff3388d

EXCERPT:

 Pope Peace Message Takes Swipe at U.S. Over Iraq
     By Philip Pullella
     CNN | Reuters

     Tuesday 16 December 2003

     (Reuters) - Pope John Paul took a swipe at the United States and
its allies Tuesday for invading Iraq without U.N. approval, suggesting
they had succumbed to the temptation to use the law of force instead
of the force of law.

     In his World Day of Peace message, issued three days after the
capture of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, he also appealed to
democracies fighting terrorism to uphold the principles of
international law and fundamental human rights.

I praise the Pope once again for his stand against the illegal and
immoral Iraqui Invasion that Warmongers Coleah Penley Ayers and
Chicken Hawk Andy Langer used Usenet to advertise for.

My favorite thead ever ... was this one ...

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/browse_frm/thread/e6bca01b1cf91965/a2cb98f49ff3388d?q=author:[email]+pope&rnum=6#a2cb98f49ff3388d

After badgering and insulting me ... calling me an ignoramous and
worse .. trying to drag me into his paid political discussions ...
Andy demanded to know my stance on the horrific American Destruction
of Iraq ...

Calling the brave anti-war stand "indefensible" and using the usual
Politcal Propaganda that anyone who didn't believe in the War was
"Pro-Saddam" ... Andy filled Usenet with the Corporate War 'opinions'
... forgetting that there are options other than destroying a country
and a culture for dethroning dictators.

When I replied with an article from the Pope which mirrored my beliefs
... Corporate Lobbyist Andy ... as always being paid for his public
relations outreach (and ever lying about it) ...

Blurted out:

LOL ... suddenly ... my opinions were more important to Andy than the
Pope's!

For more on Who Andy Langer is and Who Pays Andy Langer while he posts
on Usenet:

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/AEI-PNAC.htm

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/LangerVsIlena.htm

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/AndysPosse.htm#Rag-tag
Andy's Team ... Quacks Barrett/Poleoy and their Guerrillas

Newsgroups: alt.support.breast-implant
From: Andrew Langer<[email]> - Find messages by this author
Local: Tues, Dec 16 2003 2:46 pm
Subject: OT: Question for Ilena Rosenthal Regarding Iraq

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/browse_frm/thread/e6bca01b1cf91965/a2cb98f49ff3388d?q=author:[email]+pope&rnum=6#a2cb98f49ff3388d

EXCERPT:

 Pope Peace Message Takes Swipe at U.S. Over Iraq
     By Philip Pullella
     CNN | Reuters

     Tuesday 16 December 2003

     (Reuters) - Pope John Paul took a swipe at the United States and
its allies Tuesday for invading Iraq without U.N. approval, suggesting
they had succumbed to the temptation to use the law of force instead
of the force of law.

     In his World Day of Peace message, issued three days after the
capture of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, he also appealed to
democracies fighting terrorism to uphold the principles of
international law and fundamental human rights.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


author: Nana Weedkiller

subject: Re: The Pope ... Corporate Junk Science Flack  Ilena Rosenthal

text:
ELMENDORF AIR FORCE BASE,
Alaska (AFPN) - Perhaps the singlemost
discussed issue in the media lately
has been the passing of Pope John Paul II.
The pontiff's death is being mourned and
his life celebrated around the globe.
Chaplain (Maj.) Patrick Fletcher, a
Catholic priest here, sees the pope's death
on a different level; as the loss of a
personal friend.
While studying clinical psychology at
the University of Krakow in Poland
throughout the mid-1970s, years before
entering ministry, Chaplain Fletcher was
asked to teach English to seminary
students in Krakow. He accepted the
challenge, not knowing he would
eventually become the future pontiff's
English professor.
Chaplain Fletcher said the pope, who at
the time was Cardinal Karol Wojtyla, was
an amazing student and learned the
relatively difficult subject matter with very
few problems.
"If he said something incorrectly, I
would correct him, and he never made the
same mistake again,"the chaplain said.
With no plans of entering the seminary,
and intentions to begin a family, Chaplain
Fletcher said he remembers the night in
1975 when the future pope predicted his
ordination to the priesthood, 10 years
before it became a reality.
"He looked at me and said, 'Patrick, I
am going to ordain you,'" Chaplain
Fletcher said. "I told him I had other plans,
to which he replied, 'No, no, no Patrick, I
am going to ordain you.'"
In 1981, Chaplain Fletcher received his
calling to serve God, and in 1985, Pope
John Paul II, his former student, ordained
him a priest.
Chaplain Fletcher said the Pope has
had ties to the military since his birth in
1920.
"His father was an officer in the Polish
army," Chaplain Fletcher said. "He is the
world's most famous military brat."


author: Myrl

subject: Re: The Pope ... Corporate Junk Science Flack Ilena Rosenthal

text:
Nana-
What a great story about the Pope.  I managed to off and on, watch
segments about his life, this week , not only as a Pope, but as a child
growing up in Poland, where he lived under frightful tyrrany for many
years.

What a remarkable man, Pope John Paul was!

I thoroughly resent that Ilena, who I consider a Newsgroup Warmonger,
would choose to use the Pope as a tool for her abusive campaigns!  The
pope was a man of peaceful ways - Ilena Rosenthal most definitely
isn't!


author: pilotis

subject:
Re: Boehner and His TeaBaggers May Be Bringing Athens and Oslo To
 Your American Neighborhood

text:
On 07/29/2011 10:45 PM, Jerry Okamura wrote:

The Dems are blaming portions of the debt (Bush, Reagan, etc.) as the
problem as if they could be dealt with on a "first in-first out" basis,
leaving their own profligate spending on entitlements and social
programs alone.

Got it?


author: Ray Fischer

text:
<pilotis> wrote:

The rightards want to steal from Americans by taking the money people
have contributed to Social Security and giving it to the rich.


author: Jerry Okamura

subject: Re: Boehner and His TeaBaggers May Be Bringing Athens and Oslo To Your American Neighborhood

text:
"pilotis" wrote in message news:201107301504.UTC.j116i4$h42$[email]...

On 07/29/2011 10:45 PM, Jerry Okamura wrote:

The Dems are blaming portions of the debt (Bush, Reagan, etc.) as the
problem as if they could be dealt with on a "first in-first out" basis,
leaving their own profligate spending on entitlements and social
programs alone.

Got it?

Not really, but I will accept that explanation.


text:
"Ray Fischer"  wrote in message
news:4e345c0a$0$2198$[email]...

<pilotis> wrote:

The rightards want to steal from Americans by taking the money people
have contributed to Social Security and giving it to the rich.

How are they doing that?


text:
On 07/30/2011 02:15 PM, Jerry Okamura wrote:

OK, they're playing pick and choose with a cumulative bi-partisan mess.


author: First Post

text:
On Sat, 30 Jul 2011 10:14:19 -1000, "Jerry Okamura"
<[email]> wrote:

Fischer has the classic mind numb liberal mentality that all money
belongs to the government therefore all money not collected in the
form of taxation is stealing from the government.  Thus, by not taking
from the rich they are giving to the rich in his feeble little drug
addled brain.


text:
Jerry Okamura <[email]> wrote:

Cut taxes for the rich and cut benefits for everybody else.


text:
"pilotis" wrote in message news:201107311722.UTC.j1430f$bf7$[email]...

On 07/30/2011 02:15 PM, Jerry Okamura wrote:

OK, they're playing pick and choose with a cumulative bi-partisan mess.

Now that I can agree with....


text:
First Post  <[email]> wrote:

The rightard has the classic fascist mentality that all money belongs
to him and his corporate masters, and people who contributed for
decades to Social Security have no business asking for that money
back.


text:
"Ray Fischer"  wrote in message
news:4e347d49$0$2129$[email]...

Jerry Okamura <[email]> wrote:

Cut taxes for the rich and cut benefits for everybody else.

Is the best policy to make people more dependent on the government, or is
the best policy to help people to become less dependent on the government,
or for that matter, less dependent on anyone else?


text:
"Ray Fischer"  wrote in message
news:4e347d97$0$2129$[email]...

First Post  <[email]> wrote:

The rightard has the classic fascist mentality that all money belongs
to him and his corporate masters, and people who contributed for
decades to Social Security have no business asking for that money
back.

Good question.  Does the money belong to the "people" or does the money
belong to the "government"?


text:
Jerry Okamura <[email]> wrote:

The brutal fascist wants to see people dead in order to teach them a
lesson.

Like you are?


text:
Jerry Okamura <[email]> wrote:

Not a question, dumbass.

What "money", dumbass?
And did you forget that the government IS the people?


author: [redacted]

subject: Edmond Wollmann: The Forward Guard

text:
http://tinyurl.com/4f668z

Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
(c) 2008 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
The Sun http://www.edmondwollmann.com/
Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Gallery http://www.e-wollmann.com/


author: Ventas

subject: Re: Edmond Wollmann: The Fool

text:
In article <[email]>
[email] wrote:

URL fixored!!1!!


author: That Wollmann Asshole

subject: Re: Edmond Wollmann: Crab Wonton Fearing Kook

text:
[email] wrote in news:0ee8310f-74d3-484d-be31-1b329b6a7669
@g61g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

Fixed.


subject: Re: Edmond Wollmann: The Forward Guard

text:
On Oct 6, 8:56 pm, [email] wrote:

"There will be great economic destructurization which will
necessitate power decentralization. Our greatest difficulties will
come from
governmental disarray and the final recognition that we have given far
to much
power to those in authority...
Our philosophical and religious beliefs will be shattered (Uranus
square
Jupiter) and business will not be "as usual" (Uranus square Saturn).
The
unsoundness of our values (Taurus) and economic structures leads to
destruction
(Saturn square Uranus) through  power struggles  and war (Sun/Mars
opposition
Pluto, Pluto opposing Sun/Mars midpoint."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/msg/db9300a9c6782074?hl=en

"Now we enter a painful period for many as the foreclosure and
economic
repercussions therefrom accelerate. Markets will crash and real
estate
values plummet. This actually began in earnest with the first Mars
Opposed Pluto in September of 2007 and will accelerate with the final
one which occurs at 0 Capricorn/Cancer ( August 26 2009), if you have
planets at these
degrees take precautions to protect your assets. Mars in its fall
will
focus this crisis in national and personal security.
The environment contributes to the destruction with extreme weather
conditions, wherein neither the weather nor business will be as
"usual".

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/econ-m18.shtml

"I thought I'd better check this third plate, which is another date,
see if there's an image there in the right place that would be
consistent with the images on the other plates. That was the final
proof."
Clyde Tombaugh

Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
(c) 2008 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
The Sun http://www.edmondwollmann.com/
Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Gallery http://www.e-wollmann.com/


subject: Re: Edmond Wollmann: The Forward Guard

text:
On Oct 8, 3:55 am, Dave U. Random <[email]>
wrote:

Over and over I wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/52c3x3

Which is why I posted this in November of 2007 as Neptune slowly
triggers the conjunction and square:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology/browse_thread/thread/653128b29e394b70/db9300a9c6782074?hl=en&

Now we enter a painful period for many as the foreclosure and
economic
repercussions therefrom accelerate. Markets will crash and real
estate
values plummet. This actually began in earnest with the first Mars
Opposed Pluto in September of 2007 and will accelerate with the final
one which occurs at 0 Capricorn/Cancer, if you have planets at these
degrees take precautions to protect your assets. Mars in its fall
will
focus this crisis in national and personal security.
The environment contributes to the destruction with extreme weather
conditions, wherein neither the weather nor business will be as
"usual".

I also told readers what aspects and when in the future this would be
triggered.
The fault "dear stalker freak", is not in my postings, but in your
incessant focus on calling me a kook and other worthless mindless shit
for 14 years and wasting not only the groups time, but the the
opportunity I have provided for all of you free of charge.

Attention
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The act or state of attending or heeding; the application of the mind
to any object of sense, representation, or thought; notice; exclusive
or special consideration; earnest consideration, thought, or regard;
obedient or affectionate heed; the supposed power or faculty of
attending.

Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
(c) 2008 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
The Sun http://www.edmondwollmann.com/
Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Gallery http://www.e-wollmann.com/


subject: Re: Edmond Wollmann: The delusional kook

text:
In article <[email]>
[email] wrote:

Flush!


subject: Re: Edmond Wollmann: The Asshat


author: Zhiqi Zuo

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Arnold Chu) writes:

You seem to be against TI, why don't have a try? :-)

What is your stand on TI? If not neutral, please try too. :-)

This approach is not a bad idea, though the practices may likely end up
with people's going back to argue on how inaccurate their opinions'
are being presented by their opponents. :-)

OK, my turn. This first try is *just to set a basic tone* for all my
future posters. So, you have to read this one first before we can go
further. More details behind this summary are on their ways. This is
to imitate typical(but not ALL) exile Tibetans. I hope that many west
TI sympathizers would subscribe the point of views, from the Tibetan
official line in India, more than those of the Chinese government.

Our country Tibet, which was independent from 1951 to 1913 :-), was
attacked then occupied by the Chinese PLA in 1951. Our heroic
widespred uprising in 1959, with some other small ones in the holy
motherland, was brutally put out by the oppressive Chinese government.
Dalai Lama, the respectable leader of our own government, escaped
finally from the Chinese aggressions. Many monasteries were turned down.
Monks and nuns were forced to return home and to get married. Our
peaceful people, with monks and nuns being included, have been being
persecuted for their struggles for a free and independent Tibet.
Tibetans have been deprived of the religion freedoms, which were
flourishing and which were enjoyed by our people since the time when we
had our first religious governmental ruler of the united Tibet. Chinese
corruption is spreading in the Tibet government, in which Tibetans have
no real power. Our motherland have been occupied by the babaric Chinese
soldiers. 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed during the Chinese
occupation, though we only have 6 million at its peak. We Tibetans are
now outnumberred by the flooding Chinese immigrants in our own land. Our
culture is being genocized. Our resources are carried away to China. The
environment of our land is deterioted. Our whole country is still in a
process of the total destructions by Chinese. Our people are being
exploited and tortured by the Chinese masters.

The solution: for human rights, freedom and justice, Chinese out, Dalai
Lama in, free Tibet!

No thanks, please. :-) Let's see how the ignorant people from the
uncivilized China say. :-)


author: Nima Gyaltsen Dorjee

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2pm7co$[email]> [email] (Zhiqi Zuo) writes:

This looks like fun...
Let me put my 2 cents worth in this.

You are a triator to the motherland!  How dare you seek
understanding?
They are a very small former SLAVE OWNERS who want to split the
Motherland.  You are very priviledged have access to the net so
we cannot ever trust these people.  You cannot empathize with
the ordinary Tibetans who were all slaves because you were a
slave owner and you want your power back.

This all a propaganda.  This is not what was taught to me in my
schools.  None of this was ever reported in the Xinhua News,
therefore, none of it can ever be true.  Besides, you were a
slave owner/ (if it is a westerner) Then what about the INDIANS?
You are occupying Indian Land therefore you cannot and should not
say anything!
You want your power back!  If China was rich and powerful, you
wouldnot ask for Independence.

Long Live the Motherland!

Neal D.

(of course, it is me - Nima)


author: Karen Lofstrom

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
Zhiqi Zuo ([email]) wrote:

: Our motherland have been occupied by the babaric Chinese
: soldiers. 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed during the Chinese
: occupation, though we only have 6 million at its peak. We Tibetans are
: now outnumberred by the flooding Chinese immigrants in our own land. Our
: culture is being genocized. Our resources are carried away to China. The
: environment of our land is deterioted. Our whole country is still in a
: process of the total destructions by Chinese. Our people are being
: exploited and tortured by the Chinese masters.

I, as a pragmatic Chinese liberal (this week only), admit that the CCP
has done many bad things.  They have done them to all of China, not just
to Tibet!  Tibetan monasteries were destroyed, true -- but so were all
sorts of cultural treasures in China.  The monuments at the grave of Kung
Fu Tze were destroyed -- how barbaric!  Millions of people died in the
rest of China during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.
Tibetans did not suffer alone.

One Chinese government was bad.  This does not mean that Chinese are bad,
or that all Chinese governments will be bad.

If I could rewrite history, I would.  I wish that the Chinese central
government that reestablished control over the peripheries in the late
forties and early fifties had been a humane and sensible government.
I wish that we had instituted a program of land reform in Tibet that gave
land to the peasants, and compensated landlords with government bonds.  I
wish we'd allowed religious freedom.  I wish that Tibetans had been
allowed to keep their houses and their possessions, or allowed to wander
with their herds as they always had.

If we had done it right, then perhaps there would be no complaints now.
Tibetans would be happy to be part of a benevolent government that freed
them from serfdom, gave them roads and hospitals and modern education.

The CCP is on its way out.  When there is a new government in Beijing,
then Tibetans will have no reason to brood on the past.

Tibet's destiny lies with China.  The easiest trade routes link Tibet and
China.  Even if Tibet were independent, geography and trade would make
Tibet a junior partner to the Beijing government.  Both sides have
everything to gain by a peaceful relationship.  If Tibet continues as part
of China, peace and trade will be assured.  Imagine the difficulties if
traders had to send goods through customs and pay tariffs.  Imagine the
problems if Tibetans wanted to travel to visit family across the border
and had to deal with passports and visas.  Imagine the difficulties in
just drawing a border, when there have been Hans and Tibetans living
intermingled for centuries!

I (as a Chinese liberal for this week only) apologize for the mistakes of
the past, but assure you that Tibetans will be happy to be part of a new
democratic China.


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Nima Gyaltsen Dorjee) writes:
...

Believe me, Nima. All the parts that I wrote are politically correct.
The obvious evidence is that almost all the people who showed any doubt
of it are from the Chauvinism China! Chinese must be taught.

Bod Langzen! Bod Langzen! Bod Langzen! Bod Langzen! Bod Langzen!

ME, a Tibetan or a person whereever from the great west.


author: Wing Ng

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
Karen does a very credible imitation of the liberal Chinese.  I
could have written her message, almost word for word.

Wing

In article <[email]> [email] (Karen Lofstrom) writes:


author: Junchun Yu

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Karen Lofstrom) writes:

No matter what role your guys are playing, you seems to be only shouting
slogans and talk big words (maybe because you all want to make a parody
of the opposite side). I am not smart enough to understand what your
grand theory and I can not care less about the supposedly high ideal
held by YOU intellectuals (Yes. I am not intellectual enough to be
a member of intellectual community and I mean it. Hope the freedom
speech and the democracy does and will apply to the commoners such
as me because we the ordinary people are the majority in this world).
We common and ordinary folks care more about "firewoods,rice,cooking
oil and salt". We want to improve our living standard and get a better
job oppotunity. TI or not should be in the actual benefits of us
commoners. Could all of you folks, the pros and cons of TI, explain
to us, in a very PLAIN EVERYDAY-LIFE English, what benefits the
ordinary Chinese will earn if China lets Tibet go or what the
benefits the ordinary Tibetan can get if Tibet remain in the big
family of the China.

Believe me. The interest driven (rather than ideology driven)
motivation plays a big role in any important decision for the
ordinary people as well as the government.


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2pme7k$[email]> [email] (Zhiqi Zuo) writes:

No, It is not Lice but Rice!!  (-; (-; (-; (O-;

Nima


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2pplae$[email]> [email] (Junchun Yu) writes:

Your opinions are typical among some pragmatic Chinese netters. I am
talking from a Tibetan perspective, my views are typical among my
Tibetan compatriots in exile. Only these points count, which our
government has been presenting in many documentations and compaigns.
We are the ones who want to negotiate with CG the most. To show our
willingness for negotiations, we made our biggest concession that
we could have not made: giving up our independence to satisfy the biggest
precondition that the CG asked. We have many great concessions resulted
from this one too. PLA can stay for the defense and CG handles our
foreign relationships. But we must organize our own government. But you
know what? CG still insists that Dalai Lama talk with it on personal
basis. It doesn't even think that our government is a government, though
our plan is that our future government is independent from and equal to
CG on other matters than what I just mentioned. Even a federal CG is not
to our Tibetan people's taste. We made our concessions, but it doesn't
mean that the demands for independence are wrong. From our Tibetans'
actions, you should know it.

I am not talking big, the points of views are not only my own.
They are based on facts and they are popular opinions from Tibetans.

Remember that we sufferred a lot under Chinese government, and we
want to organize our own government based on our people's will. This
is a point that we can't give up. We don't need Chinese help on this.
We can and want to do thing in Tibet on our own, though we may need your
advise if necessary. Thanks for your suggestions anyway.


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
Junchun Yu ([email]) wrote:

: Could all of you folks, the pros and cons of TI, explain
: to us, in a very PLAIN EVERYDAY-LIFE English, what benefits the
: ordinary Chinese will earn if China lets Tibet go or what the
: benefits the ordinary Tibetan can get if Tibet remain in the big
: family of the China.

I (a pragmatic liberal Chinese for one week only) reply that this is the
*essence* of what China has to offer Tibet.  Alone, Tibet will be a
small, poor, isolated country, without the resources to afford the best
university equipment and library, modern hospitals, up-to-date phones,
roads, trains, airports.  As part of the new China, Tibet will share in our
prosperity.  Frankly, Tibetans will probably receive more in tax benefits
than they will pay out in taxes.  What does central China get in return?
Security.  We don't want a potentially hostile country in the west.  In
return, we are willing to pay what it takes to keep Tibet happy.  We are
getting rich, we can afford it.

Look at the rest of the world.  Everywhere, countries are cooperating for
economic benefits.  European nations join the European Union.  The US,
Mexico and Canada join NAFTA.  When national boundaries go down, trade
gets more efficient and everyone profits.

In the new China, Tibetans will have all the rights, freedoms  and
protections that they would have if they were independent.  In addition,
they will get extra money from the central government, and lots of trade
benefits.  The ordinary Tibetans will not turn this down!  They will know
which side of the bread the yak butter is on!


author: Tingli Pan

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <[email]>,
Nima Gyaltsen Dorjee <[email]> wrote:
Do we think that we are a little bit rediculas and stupid, (I mean both
sides) when we are looking from our opponents side?
Tingli Pan


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2pr9le$[email]>, Zhiqi Zuo <[email]> wrote:
But Tibet is not an independent country. And the exile government has
never been recognized in the international community. And all your
auguments are based on nothing.
I wouldn't say the popular opinions of Tibetans, rather it is the
opinions of some Tibetans.

Your suffere is due to the fact as Chinese under a ruthless government.
Therefor your prioty, is just like ours, fihgt for the rights of all
Chinese, instead splitting Chinese into several groups.

Tingli Pan


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
Ok, I am back to normal now. :-)

It is hard for me to play this game to satisfy you guys, but WHY
don't you try this to show that you can do it MUCH BETTER?

I was just trying to show you how things are screwed up totally
and generally from the beginning to the end in THEORY then actions:
the dispute about Tibetan identity. They can't work things out
their remarkable difference/"differences".

I was also trying to show you the GENERAL attitudes of all sides
BEHIND FACES in more sensible ways. I was not imitating individuals
like you. Your thinkings become almost irrelavant comparing to
the big stands by the conflicting sides IN GENERAL. If they can't
work some basic out, how can they go further to work on educational,
cultural, trade...plans?

Andrew's basic attitude is still there. Mine here. His there.
No improvement.

My efforts end as totaly a failure. :-(

On the second thought, life goes on. :-)

In article <[email]> [email] (andrew ï¿½) writes:


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Karen Lofstrom) writes:

(My observation is that Mr. Zuo Zhiqi sounds like a naughty brat and
 Ms. Karen Lostrom sounds like a arrogant snob in this game.)

Now Karen suppose you were a pragmatic liberal Tibetan, how could you
refute the above article you wrote as a pragmatic liberal Chinese?


author: jack chao

subject: Basic questions on Tibet Independ.

text:
Could some Tibetan intellectual enlighten me on some basic questions
about TI movement ?

I got the following mail to confirm what I read about what Tibetan
wants for their land. Roughly it's 1/4 of China and it will block the
connection of China to SinJing(?). so it may cause SinJiang to request
for independent. Then the total land China lose is close to 40%.

Why Tibetan believes the Tibet should be as what Dalai described below ?
Most area outside of Tibet Auto. Region are populated by more than
20 millions Han Chineses. What  6 million Tibetans want to do with these
Hans ? Relocate them or rule them ?  Any plan ?

To me, what Dalai Lama proposed Tibet's territory is just a way beyond
a Chinese like me can understand and accept. It's pure national security
issue. I really like to learn why Tibetan believes they deserve that ?

I just can't see Russian to let native Siberians (Buliate?) to be independent.
I also  really doubt USA will let Mexican American or  American Indian to
claim any state to be independent.  Even  they have some compatible great
religion leader like Dalai Lama  in there. Why Tibetan thinks PRC could
be different ?  Is there any other alternative that Tibetan can work out
with PRC to stay in PRC ?

Jack

-------------------------------------------------------

This is also discussed a lot on the net some time ago. But I didn't save the
articles. Basicly, The Dalai Lama defines Tibet to be the present Tibet +
whole Chinghai (Qinghai) province + part of Gansu + part of Sichuan + part of
Yunan. This makes about 1/4 of PRC as "Tibet".

As a matter of fact, the Tibet controlled by Dalai Lama's government in the
last 200+ years was exactly the same area as the present Tibet or "TAR"
(Tibertan Autonomous Region). Other areas have been directly governed by Ching,
ROC, and PRC for at least 200+ years. However, the present Dalai Lama (14th)
was born in a Tibetan family in Chinghai province. That's probably why he
insists the whole Chinghai province as part of Tibet.

I don't believe any Chinese government (ROC, PRC, or any future one) would
agree to the definition of Tibet by the Dala Lama. Last year, I read from a
local English newspaper here that the negociation between the Dalai Lama and
the Chinese government broke because two sides could not agree to what Tibet
is.


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2pmi63$[email]> [email] (Tingli Pan) writes:

I agree. Even so, you should have some ideas about my attitudes/opinions
now. I will try to make my tones much softer thus more rational. :-)


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
Then I guess that since Chinese are having the controlling
power, we Tibetans have to wait and see, while we will launch
more international campaigns to get helps.

BTW, we had our own government toally independent from ROC(for
38 years before the Chinese invasion), like CCP in Yanan. But
the difference was we Tibetans are not Chinese.

I am a Tibetan, I know what we feel. And we know what our
identity should be. As I told you, we are not Chinese, how
can you expect us to work under the same government, now and
future, good or not?

Tenzin

In article <2prd7p$[email]> [email] (Tingli Pan) writes:


author: Eddie Cheng

subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2prv47$[email]>, Zhiqi Zuo <[email]> wrote:

Thank God.

I thought that was why Karen started the whole thing, so that SHE can
show YOU how to do it better.  She never said that YOU could do the
same to HER.  It's your own fault that you have to learn this the hard
way.  :)

Now you know you are a Chinese who is studying in a technical field
and trying to argue social issues with experts using a language
medium that you hadn't mastered.

    Eddie


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2ps30c$[email]> [email] (Junchun Yu) writes:
...

I agree, and I felt like though my :-) standings were almost all
from the line of the Tibetans in exile and a typical westerner.
The basic difference is a fatal one as shown before.

There might be no such a pragmatic Tibetan comming out to refute
your pragmatic points? Can you refute yours? I am waiting to see
and even Tenzin :-) will be very picky.


subject: Re: Basic questions on Tibet Independ.

text:
In article <2ps2kv$[email]> [email] writes:
...

The very narrow Gansu Corridor can still links the two chunks together,
even if Inner Mongolia were gone. But the serious geopolitics problem
is still there.

Place                       Area(in million sq. km)
TAR                         1.3
area living by Tibetans     3.8
XinJiang                    1.7
Inner Mongolia              1.3
P.R. Mongolia               1.7
PRC                         9.6

If some people in XingJiang asked and fought for independence, things
will become extremely bloody again.

Ask CG, the controlling power.

Buryat has been divided into three parts now. Mongolian makes only less
than half of the population in the old region. But mongolians account for
more than half of the Yakut to the even north. Of course, there are also
some other Mongolian areas in Russia.

Things are totally mixed up and screwed up for the Tibet problem. Yeah,
you pointed the core of it.

I think it is about 1/3, even if Outer Mongolia and some other areas once
claimed by ROC were counted now(as some ROC people did/do).

Actually, Qinghai had a very important role for Tibetans in history.

I doubt that the talk can go that far, when CG insists on talking with Dalai
Lama as a person while Dalai Lama is supposed by the Tibetans in exile as
their governing head. The situation might be closer to what the CG, the party
in upper hand, wants to be.


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2prg1h$[email]>, Zhiqi Zuo <[email]> wrote:
More or less, you are right here.
That is the key point, as Chinese consider Tibet is part of China, and
Tibetans are Chinese as well.
But there are many different ethnic peoples working under a government,
why can't Tibetans?

Tingli Pan


subject: Re: Karen as turncoat

text:
In article <2ps03p$[email]> [email] (Eddie Cheng) writes:

Agree to some degree. The problem is that people like Mr. Yu and
Andrew are still complaining, though Karen and I are actually
presenting some of their basic :-) standings to let them know that
nobody is ignored. They all failed to realize that it was because of
some of their current standings that "cooperations" can't possibly
achieved. Mr. Yu even believe that Karen has to be a pragmatic
Tibetan to be constructive. Gosh, according to some people, Dalai
Lama is pragmatic enough in giving up independence, though Tingli
as a pragmatic Chinese basically turned down Dalai Lama's demand
to organize Tibetans' own government according to Tibetan people's
will. Mr. Yu may be able to tell us what a pragmatic Tibetan will
be like who is acceptable by most Tibetans in exile.

I have to agree that my language should have been more lengthy though
my points are still the same to persuade NObody. :-) ALL Chinese
netters have done it but no opponent was ever persuaded before, maybe
I could have changed the miserable :-) history, ASSUMING the lacking
of language skills is the core of the Tibet problem? :-)

Qiaoxiong