text:
"J Young" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It's the same thing for prisons here in the U.S.

Many people feel they are scum, the offenders that is.

And in many cases they are right. But they are still human beings, they
still have some rights.

I always tell new recruits..remember this.

The person you see in prison is someones father, brother, son, or husband.
That is for male prisons.  Same thing for women's prison.  That person is
someones wife, daughter, mother, girlfriend, or sister.

We don't punish, at least we are not supposed to.

The court systems do that.

 Perhaps if the ACLU were pro-American, they'd find a way to


author: Shawn Hirn

subject: Re: US Force-Feeding Prisoners in Torture Camp

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "J Young" <[email]> wrote:

Imprisoning someone in perpetuity and them allowing them to starve
themselves to death IS killing them. Is this the way Jesus would treat
his enemies? I doubt it.


author: George

text:
On 2006-02-21 15:21:40 -0800, "osprey" <[email]> said:

LOL!!!


author: Freeman

subject: Sept. 11, 2002: we are eclipsed

text:
The last time it went this quiet in public, there was an almost-total
eclipse of the Sun (in 1999).

The Sun has been eclipsed for a year.  Will we see it lit again in our
lifetime?


author: Dirk Bruere

subject: Re: Sept. 11, 2002: we are eclipsed

text:
"Freeman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Looked out the window just now, and there it is.
Must be a bit cloudy down your way.

Dirk


author: Ron

subject: Re: Sept. 11, 2002: we are eclipsed

text:
[email] (Freeman) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

 You might;...if you get your ass in gear and bring to justice those
criminally insane occupants of the White House.


author: Joel J. Marangella

subject: The Aghsan myth exposed

text:
POSTED ON BEHALF OF THE THIRD GUARDIAN OF THE BAHA'I FAITH

THE AGHSAN MYTH EXPOSED

The undeniable falsehood propagated by twenty-six Hands of the Cause that
only an Aghsï¿½n could inherit the Guardianship.

The Aghsï¿½n have been identified by Shoghi Effendi, both in God Passes By
(p.239) and in the Gleanings from the Writings of Bahï¿½'u'llï¿½h (p.244), as
the sons of Bahï¿½'ullï¿½h. Therefore, the Aghsï¿½n were contemporaries of
'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ and could never have outlived Shoghi Effendi and been
available, even if they had remained loyal to the Covenant, for appointment
as successors to Shoghi Effendi. It should be obvious that 'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ was
concerned that there was the danger that the sons of Bahï¿½'u'llï¿½h  would
consider themselves superior to Bahï¿½'u'llï¿½h's great-grandson, Shoghi
Effendi, even though he had been appointed Guardian of the Faith and
therefore, 'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ enjoined them, in His Testament, to show their
"obedience, submissiveness and subordination" unto him.  But in spite of
this injunction, they subsequently became disloyal, as attested to by the
Hands of the Cause in the proclamation they issued at the end of their first
conclave,  following the passing of Shoghi Effendi, (incidentally, no such
conclave is required under the provisions of the Will and Testament  of
'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½) in which they  stated: "The Aghsï¿½n (branches) one and all are
either dead or have been declared violators of the Covenant by the Guardian
for their faithlessness to the Master's Will and Testament . . ."

Significantly, this disloyalty must have already been manifested when
'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ penned "Part Three" of His Will and Testament, at a later date
than the first two parts, as He makes no mention  of the Aghsï¿½n at all in
that part of His Testament.   In contrast, for example, to the passage found
in Part One, of the Will and Testament (on page 11 of the 1944 edition,
translated by Shoghi Effendi) wherein 'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ states: "It is incumbent
upon the members of the House of Justice, upon all the Aghsï¿½n, the Afnan,
the Hands of the Cause of God to  show their obedience, submissiveness and
subordination unto the guardian of the Cause of God, to turn unto him and be
lowly before him." 'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ in Part Three (in the next to the last page)
states, in His reference to the "guardian of the Cause of God" that "the
Afnan, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause and the beloved of the Lord must
obey him and turn unto him."  It should therefore be crystal clear that
'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½  had never intended that only an Aghsï¿½n should inherit the
Guardianship, as claimed by the Hands, in the event that the eldest son did
"not inherit the spiritual within him" and he had to "choose another
branch," as they would not have outlived Shoghi Effendi.   Yet, incredibly,
the Hands of the Cause erroneously claimed that Shoghi Effendi, who, himself
was not even an Aghsï¿½n, (i.e. not a son of Bahï¿½'u'llï¿½h) had been unable to
appoint a successor because: "The Aghsï¿½n (branches) one and all are either
dead or have been declared violators of the Covenant by the Guardian . . ."
and for this reason: "no successor to Shoghi Effendi could have been
appointed by him. . ."

In view of the foregoing, it is obvious that any claim that 'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ had
restricted the Guardian's choice of a successsor, under the terms of His
Will and Testament to an Aghsï¿½n, is completely without foundation and is
patently false.  Furthermore, there is no clause in the Will and Testament
that requires the Guardian to appoint only a descendant of Bahï¿½'u'llï¿½h or a
Persian as his successor.  There is no excuse, therefore, for refusing to
accept Shoghi Effendi's undeniable appointment of a successsor "in his own
life-time" in complete conformity with the provisions of the Will and
Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½ and not through the instrumentality of a
conventional will and testament, which the Hands of the Cause would have
foreseen, had they familiarized themselves again with the provisions of that
sacred Document and not have undertaken a search for a will and testament
left by Shoghi Effendi, as they announced in their "Official Statement" of
November 19, 1957, that, of course, proved fruitless.

                    Joel Bray Marangella
                    Guardian of the Bahï¿½'ï¿½ Faith

http://Bahai-Guardian.com


author: Jeffrey

subject: Re: The Aghsan myth exposed

text:
The fact that Shoghi Effendi was not an Agshan should be proof enough that
the Guardian need not be an Agshan.

Jeffrey

"Joel J. Marangella" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
appointment
was
first
are
Guardian
date
found
incumbent
be
page)
did
incredibly,
himself
."
had
a
that


author: Wick Breslin

subject: Re: The Aghsan myth exposed

text:
Jeff,

I recall arguing this point to a sans-Guardian believer some time ago
and it's funny because the argument that a Guardian must be an Agshan
makes the first Guardian's station null and void because like you
stated, Shoghi Effendi was not.  An Agshan is the first born male
lineal descendent in Baha'u'llah's line.  Shoghi Effendi was born to
Abdu'l Baha's daughter.  Not a direct male descendent.

I am amazed that individuals still use this argument to dispute Mason
Remey and  Joel Marangella's respective Guardianships.
Reaching...really reaching.

Sincerely,
Chad L. Olsen

"Jeffrey" <[email]> wrote in message news:<5V9qb.29$[email]>...


subject: Re: The Aghsan myth exposed

text:
Dear Chad,

Of course, they are reaching.  What else are they going to do?

All of their so-called teaching the Faith also is reaching.  They abandoned
the verities of the Faith and are teaching their religion as if it were just
some peace and love organization-- when really it was supposed to have been
the Kingdom of God upon earth!

I am just hoping that there are some sincere ones amongst the Heterodox
organization, who will have an open mind and see that they are unwittingly
members of an organization that has gone to the "dark side" in the struggle
between Good and Evil now occurring between the forces of the old order and
the Order of Baha'u'llah.

It really does not matter for the Cause of God whether or not they come back
to the true Faith.  The Cause of God will be victorious.  Of this, there is
no doubt whatsoever.

However, humanity will suffer greatly unless the sincere ones put an end to
this Violation and help us spread the  Message.

Jeffrey

"Wick Breslin" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<5V9qb.29$[email]>...
that
that
By
as
'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½
would
of
the
such
of
all
in
edition,
Afnan,
and
and
"the
must
that
the
son
unable to
either
.
'Abdu'l-Bahï¿½
His
is
Testament
or
to
own
have
of
testament
Statement" of


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: The Aghsan myth exposed

text:
I think you have hit the nail on the head!  We were told once long ago
that it was up to the Bhaa';is how they reponded to the Message of
Bha'u'llah as to the severity of the calamity spoken of by His
Holiness Baha'u'llah.  It appears that when it finally hits it will be
unmitagated disaster unless the vast majority of Bha'is understand why
the Prophet came and for what purpose the Guardianship and the
Administrative structure was tyo be raised.  Indeed, this is not for
lvoe and peace, but for the establsihment of the very kingdom of God
on earth.

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:53:39 -0700, "Jeffrey" <[email]>
wrote:


author: The Daring Dufas

subject:
Re: How come we have to pay for  Oklahoma hillbillies home  -- AGAIN
 !

text:
On 6/16/2013 12:46 PM, Silly Demented Billy wrote:

Shrink government, I suppose getting rid of The Commiecrat parasites
infesting Washington D.C. would shrink government. We don't need a
powerful overbearing central government telling the states what to do
and controlling every aspect of the lives of the citizenry. The feral
federal government needs to shrink by 75% and only do those things
spelled out in our Constitution and the states will get along just fine.
Feral Federales Go Home! ^_^

TDD


author: Billy

subject: Re: How come we have to pay for  Oklahoma hillbillies home  -- AGAIN !

text:
In article <kpm07s$oa1$[email]>,
 The Daring Dippy Dumbass <[email]>
wrote:

And there you have it, folks, the "N" word. The shibboleth of tx.guns.
Whites for Black slavery. Guns are good for shooting black People. It's
the reason you may never again see a Guardian of Privilege (The White
Whine Party) win another national election. The "N" word means no
African-Americans, no Latinos, no Liberals will be voting for your sorry
ass Presidential candidates. Kiss Allen West, Herman Cain, Clarence
Thomas, and Condi Rice good-bye.

The victimized, white racists will now plaintively cry out, "They hate
us for our Freedoms", and only White bigots will listen.

<http://www.gallup.com/poll/160373/democrats-racially-diverse-republicans
-mostly-white.aspx>
February 8, 2013
Democrats Racially Diverse; Republicans Mostly White

Good work, Dumbass. Thanks for showing who you guys really are. Scum.
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>


text:
On 6/17/2013 12:13 PM, Silly Emotional Demented Billy wrote:
-mostly-white.aspx>

OH MY GOD! Silly Demented Overly Emotional Billy is a racist!

So typical of ignorant overly emotional P.L.L.C.F. who don't possess a
rational mind. Some of my Irish ancestors were called "nigger" but THEY
GOT OVER IT. Heck, it was once a grave insult for a Caucasian to be
called "Irish". The difference is, Caucasian immigrants who were called
names GOT OVER IT and went on to build a great country. When was the
last time you heard of an American of Chinese ancestry having a stroke
over being called a "coolie"? A young American of Chinese ancestry would
probably have no idea of what you were yapping about. The Chinese
immigrants who came to America were mistreated in the early history of
our country but THEY GOT OVER IT. The first slaves who built this
country were Irish and Scotsmen captured in wars with England and later
English deemed to be criminals sent to America as slaves. There were
times when Irish slaves were given dangerous jobs to do because African
slaves were considered too expensive to risk in dangerous situations.
The White Irishman was consider to be worth less than an African Negro.
The Irish GOT OVER IT and went on to do great things. Silly Demented
Billy is one of those White slavery deniers who refuses to acknowledge
that the first slaves brought to America were Caucasians from Europe
long before any African Negroes where brought here as slaves. You also
deny that free Negroes owned White slaves in America or perhaps you're
totally ignorant of the TRUE history of America because of your lax
government school education. You swallowed the the nonsense that the
only slaves ever were African Negroes and that Caucasian Americans owe
reparations to Negro Americans because some of their ancestors were
slaves. Perhaps you should demand that the West African countries that
sold the African Negroes into slavery are responsible and should pay
reparations? My REAL African friends think Negro Americans are idiots
and say they wouldn't last 5 minutes in Africa. A Homie from da hood
would mouth off to an African cop and his body might be found in a dump
somewhere. Real African Negroes don't think too highly of Negro
Americans and consider in insulting when they hear someone say "African
American". So Silly Demented Racist Billy, I only have one word for
you... nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger,
nigger, nigger. You can shove it up your ass where most of what you
write comes from. Honkies GOT OVER IT, Niggers should GET OVER IT too.  ^_^

TDD


subject: tx.guns says "Get over it" to LA (R) Sen. Elbert Guillory

text:
On 6/17/2013 12:13 PM, Silly Emotional Demented Billy wrote:
Billy claims no authorship in the following email addresses.

-mostly-white.aspx>

OH MY GOD! Silly Demented Overly Emotional Billy is a racist!

So typical of ignorant overly emotional P.L.L.C.F. who don't possess a
rational mind. Some of my Irish ancestors were called "nigger" but THEY
GOT OVER IT. Heck, it was once a grave insult for a Caucasian to be
called "Irish". The difference is, Caucasian immigrants who were called
names GOT OVER IT and went on to build a great country. When was the
last time you heard of an American of Chinese ancestry having a stroke
over being called a "coolie"? A young American of Chinese ancestry would
probably have no idea of what you were yapping about. The Chinese
immigrants who came to America were mistreated in the early history of
our country but THEY GOT OVER IT. The first slaves who built this
country were Irish and Scotsmen captured in wars with England and later
English deemed to be criminals sent to America as slaves. There were
times when Irish slaves were given dangerous jobs to do because African
slaves were considered too expensive to risk in dangerous situations.
The White Irishman was consider to be worth less than an African Negro.
The Irish GOT OVER IT and went on to do great things. Silly Demented
Billy is one of those White slavery deniers who refuses to acknowledge
that the first slaves brought to America were Caucasians from Europe
long before any African Negroes where brought here as slaves. You also
deny that free Negroes owned White slaves in America or perhaps you're
totally ignorant of the TRUE history of America because of your lax
government school education. You swallowed the the nonsense that the
only slaves ever were African Negroes and that Caucasian Americans owe
reparations to Negro Americans because some of their ancestors were
slaves. Perhaps you should demand that the West African countries that
sold the African Negroes into slavery are responsible and should pay
reparations? My REAL African friends think Negro Americans are idiots
and say they wouldn't last 5 minutes in Africa. A Homie from da hood
would mouth off to an African cop and his body might be found in a dump
somewhere. Real African Negroes don't think too highly of Negro
Americans and consider in insulting when they hear someone say "African
American". So Silly Demented Racist Billy, I only have one word for
you... nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger,
nigger, nigger. You can shove it up your ass where most of what you
write comes from. Honkies GOT OVER IT, Niggers should GET OVER IT too.
^_^

TDD
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>


text:
In article <kpstnj$dbo$[email]>,
 The Dippy Dumbass <[email]> wrote:

Looks like Dippy has gone dived into the shallow end of the pool, again.
No cover Dippy? No place to hide? Sure we kept you in slavery for 250
years, denied your humanity, raped you, beat you, and hung you.
Now, get over it.

Words to live by. Noted above that the original post has been altered on
that day of infamy [6/15/13]. Instead of the original
<i-blow-ni**[email]> he has changed it to "ima-niger".
Why you be doin' that, boy? You ashamed of what you did, boy? Good,
maybe there still may be hope for you, but probably not. Were you just
skulkin' around, boy? Pretending to just be some innocent seed of Africa.

Uh, maybe you should take that up with the brothers.

I also wanted to wish you HAPPY JUNETEENTH, Dumbass. The day in 1865
that Union troops came in to Galvaston, TX, and told you sorry white
asses that you didn't have slaves anymore. Now that's progress, boy :O)
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>


text:
On 6/19/2013 7:24 PM, Silly Insane Billy wrote:

Yea Silly Demented Outer Space Alien Billy, I've already taken it up
with my four brothers. ^_^

Damn! You mean we can no longer have White slaves. I sure will miss
Sandra my White slave girl. Gosh, perhaps we should make up some sort of
holiday for the White slaves who were freed from their Black masters.
Perhaps "Honkyteenth" maybe "Crackerday"? I'm sure we can come up with
something. ^_^

Hey Silly Demented Racist Billy, how many big niggers with giant dongs
have you blown today? ^_^

TDD


author: The truth will set you free

text:
juneteenth, another day made up so we can pander to those lower on the
Bell Curve. Merry Kwaanza you goofy Shine.


text:
In article <kpu320$pl8$[email]>,
 The Daring Dufas <[email]> wrote:

Say hello to Hillary and Nancy, and a big warm welcome to your latest
Republican Senator from Louisiana, Sen. Elbert Guillory.
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>


text:
On 6/20/2013 1:15 AM, Billy wrote:

So you're being a racist over a wonderful American, La. State Senator
Elbert Guillory just because he is a Negro American who decided the
Democrats are full of crap. How typical of you P.L.L.C.F., a Black man
decides the Liberal way is the wrong way so you creeps lambast him
calling him a Uncle Tom or lapdog of the Republicans. My God, what
horrible racists you and your kind are Billy. o_O

TDD


author: jbg

subject: creating visions

text:
- cynicism - materialism - egoism - abuse - sexual frustration -
spiritual confusion - fear - hate - death - violence - destruction -
exploitation - greed - callousness - corruption - depression -
delusion - denial - futility - illusion - cruelty - judgment - need -
rigidity - numbness - loathing - failure - obfuscation - intolerance -
oppression - manipulation - restriction - ignorance

+ love + power + joy + lucidity + tranquillity + wisdom + faith +
creation + awareness + transcendence + unity + purpose + compassion +
energy + connectivity + realization + gratitude + humor + balance +
continuity + condonation + unconditionality + utility + happiness +
acceptance + respect + affirmation + consciousness + appreciation +
liberation + empowerment + choice + transformation

= 0

it's your choice to create and experience...


author: David Lloyd-Jones

subject: Re: creating visions

text:
jbg wrote:

Watta lotta codswallop!

Materialilsm is good. Need is unavoidable. Egoism, sexual frustration,
spiritual confusion and illusion are all far more good than bad.
Intolerance is like a fully fueled and armed M-1A1 Abrams tank, with air
cover: it depends where you point it.

That's the supposed minuses.

                                               * * *

                                                      Let's turn to the
wannabe positives:

Now I'm not so goddam sure about lucidity. Having hunted John Lott all
over the Net I'm really impressed with how lucid the sociopathic little
sicko is.

I don't have enough time for all of these, but as far as affirmation is
concerned, when the Crystal Cathedral looms up on my Sunday morning TV,
I change channels toot sweet.

"Empowerment + choice + transformation"? Shee-yit. Give me a little
empowerment an' I can think of half dozen folks my choice would be, I'd
transform 'em into pillars of salt.  See "unconditionality," supra.

      -dlj.


author: Uncle Al

subject: Re: creating visions

text:
jbg wrote:

http://w0rli.home.att.net/youare.swf

Do you want your lights to come on when you flip the switch?  How good
must you feel about yourself to design an AC generation and
distribution network?  To manufacture the plastic that is the switch
body?  Do you even know why the filaments of a fluorescent tube have
that thin little steel disk behind them?

Do you know how to machine a screw?  To machine a billion screws?  We
don't mine them, jackass, we make them - loud, dirty, boring,
poorly-paid, essential work.  Have you ever worked on a production
line, pontificating moron?

Newly educated and semi-educated classes - social or intellectual -
seek positions in government bureaucracies or social advocacy rather
than in industry and commerce where competence is inarguably measured
at the end of every business quarter.  The growth of bureaucracies
needed to absorb these swaggering imbeciles is precisely opposed to
society's growth and development both as direct philosophical enemy
and as infinitely hungry sump to resources otherwise needed to support
productive endeavors.

Anything origianlly posted to a *.environement group is bullshit and
abusive crossposting.

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
 (Do something naughty to physics)


subject: Re: creating visions

text:
In sci.econ Uncle Al <[email]> wrote:

 Good lord! You are talking about India, aren't you?

 Mind if I use that in my .sig file?

 Atanu


author: TellTheTruth

subject: Re: creating visions

text:
"Uncle Al" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

You tell the truth.

Ball comes instantly to mind.  Ian, of course, isn't even fit for government
"employmnent".


subject: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
A few years back I seem to recall that some people took out a private
prosecution for Treason against Douglas Hurd for signing the Maastrict
treaty. It was taken over by the DPP and dropped 'in the public interest'

My question is this, given the human rights act is now in place. If, say,
some individual were to take out a private prosecution against say Edward
Heath for signing the treaty of Rome, would it now be a breach of their
human rights for the DPP to take over the case and scrap it regardless of
the public interest issue?


author: Muiris Mag Ualghairg

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
Go and read the case your memory seems to be a bit poor - what happened is
that the speaker of the house of commons made a statement that the act of
parliament enacting the Maastricht treaty had been passed by Parliament and
as such the courts had no authority to rule on it, under the Bill of Rights.

If I remember correctly a number of Scottish MPs pointed out that the Bill
of Rights in question was a law of the English Parliament (i.e. pre Union
Parliament of England) and as such only bound the English courts, where as
the equivalent Scottish law gives the courts the right to look at
Parliamentary actions and determine if they were passed correctly or not.
The people who wanted to press for the treason charge were so bothered that
their country was supposedly under threat that they didn't restart the case
in a Scottish court which would have had jurisdiction!

"paul.rowntree" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3c31f0c8@212.67.96.135...


author: Paul Wolff

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
In article <[email]>, Richard Buttrey
<[email]> writes

But in the ERM, they weren't absolutely fixed, which was the nub of the
problem.  There was an agreement by the countries concerned to take
action in the market or by interest rate adjustment to strive to
maintain market values within an agreed band.

In EMU, there is no scope for market pressures to shift relative
exchange rates.

The ERM was a disaster because it forced the UK authorities to take
extreme measures to try and keep within the snake.  This is not needed
in EMU.

Precisely -- see above.

I presume because they were not equivalent regimes.  It's disingenuous
in the extreme to say that EMU will be a disaster because ERM was.

I do agree that if the sterling and euro economies are not in step,
economic imbalances will occur, and the results won't be pleasant, but
they will not force 15% interest rates on us in a desperate effort to
keep the British euro at par with the continental euro.


author: Richard Buttrey

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 17:29:40 -0000, "paul.rowntree"
<[email]> wrote:

I guess, (and usual caveat applies here IANAL), that that would depend
on whether Heath was arraigned in his own name, i.e. a true private
prosecution, or in his capacity as an ex Prime Minister.

In a true private prosecution, presumably the state would have no
competence at all.

The other option is a more interesting one however. Haven't recent
cases shown that a government may not act as both judge and jury,
since this removes one of the basic principles enshrined in the HRA,
i.e. the prosecution must be independent of the judging authority?
(The recent case I had in  mind was I think something to do with
planning applications, where an inspector responsible to the secretary
of state, both hears the evidence and makes a judgment. This was held
to be contrary to the HRA).

Rgds


author: Bob Sims

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
paul.rowntree <[email]> wrote in message
news:3c31f0c8@212.67.96.135...
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The breach of human rights has been the business of the so-called
"EU" from its very outset.

300 charges of treason where laid against Blair in the magistrates
courts last year, under the SANITY initiative, which began as
a Magna Carta project.

Every one of them was illegally refused.

The magistrates who refused to accept them - other than as private
actions - are in breach of their oaths of allegiance and guilty of the
serious crime of Misprision of Treason.   (Failure to act on a
report of treason).

The depth and breadth of the subversion of our society - and
especially of our law - by the "EU" and its collaborators - with
their "placemen" at every level - is beginning to be better
understood by the public.

The entire system in Britain is under the thrall of Blair and his
criminals - and I use the word "criminals" advisedly - which has
been achieved by the massive use of "placemen" who wilfully
and wantonly betray the offices and duties they hold.

When Blair has been destroyed and the rule of law restored
to the UK - there will be hundreds, if not thousands, in the
civil service and courts who will have to explain themselves -
and who face the prospect of long prison sentences.

There will be no need to appeal to any European or other
"Human Rights" rules - adequate provision already exists -
and always has existed - under British law.


author: sophocles

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
Another nutter who writes complete and utter rubbish.
You will get used to the Euro when it comes, it's good money.

---
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author: Robert Henderson

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
In article <3c31f0c8@212.67.96.135>, paul.rowntree
<[email]> writes
The HRA guarantees the right to a fair trial, not the right to
prosecute. However, I suspect something might be made of the argument
that as the right to private prosecution exists in English law, the
power of the attorney general squash a private prosecution or to take it
over and make a deliberate horlicks of it, is illegitimate, especially
as their is no right of appeal against the attorney general taking
either course. RH


author: Richard Miller

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
"paul.rowntree" <[email]> wrote in message
news:3c31f0c8@212.67.96.135...

No. How could it be?

Richard Miller


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
Bob Sims <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
interest'
say,
Edward
of

Have you proceeded in action against the magistrates?

<snip>

What about Thomas Moore's human rights?  Where was his human rights
protected for dare resisting the State?  Not to mention the thousands of
Cathoilics that were burnt or tortured under Protestant Monarchs.  What
about the thousands of Protestants that were burnt or tortured under Mary's
rule?  In what way did Magna Carta protect thier human rights?  Our Bill of
Rights continue to fail us as the ECHR has shown by exposing the UK as the
main country who are in breach of Human Rights.

What your argument lacks in substance, is made up for in irrational,
groundless rantings.

If you were really interested in Human Rights, you would be campaigning for
a written Constitution which you have helped decide on, with provisions to
form a Government with limited powers to infringe on peoples rights.

But you and the rest of the flat Earth mob cannot and indeed will not do
this.  You are advocating for a continuation of a system which ensures that
anybody who is not English - read Roman/Viking/Saxon/Norman descent - white
and protestant is not protected from abuses of basic, inalienable rights.

Your continual anti jewish/communist/left wing/catholic agenda is
tranaparent.  Your continual pursuit of spreading mistrust and hatred of
foriegners - without whom incidentally, there would have been no Magna
Carta - is about as ill concieved as any paranoid, murdering Austrian could
have come up with.

When the nurses take you off the medication, and you come out of the
delusional state you constantly appear to be in, can you tell us where this
3 square feet of little England you, and the handful of the Flat Earthers
occupy actually is?


author: athomik

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
"Bob Sims" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
<snip>
say,
Edward
of
Being that the UK government is in the business of creating laws which
override the human rights convention, I suspect you'd have to turn to Europe
to defend your rights in the above scenarion.


author: Till M Ruessmann

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"sophocles" <[email]> wrote in message
news:donY7.25164$[email]...

Uhh, I had in my hands the first time today. Reminds me of Monopoly money. I
think I'll stick to my Eurocard.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
sophocles <[email]> wrote in message
news:donY7.25164$[email]...
--------------------------------------------------------------

People do not get used to cancer.

They die from it.

It is the stunning arrogance and insolence of jumped up
fleas like you that justify civil war.


author: ad c

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
sophocles wrote:

If you have not noticed, but we have not got the Euro in the UK, so we
can not really get used to it.It is monopoly money. We will see how good
money it is when one country have to raise interest rates to sort their
economy out and find out they can not do that. Germany is now finding it
difficult, almost if not in, ressecion, unemployment going higher. I
blame the Euro.

I do not want to get used to it, I do not want anything from the
corupted E.U.


author: Cliff Morrison

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
In article <donY7.25164$[email]>,
"sophocles" <[email]> wrote:

Don't recall anyone wanting to ban foreign currency, nor for that matter
threatening to prohibit the use of a common currency; it is the
control-freaking monopolists' forced substitution and termination of a
UK-based (and thereby reformable) system with a single currency that's
external in all respects (and therefore beyond all prospect of reform)
that people find deeply objectionable.

You got a problem with that?


author: Mark Holland

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:39:27 -0000, "sophocles"
<[email]> wrote:

Why is it necessarily "good" money. It's fiat. It only has worth
because the ECB say it has. Would you trust a Eurocrat further than
you could throw him?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
In article <a0t83v$i44$[email]>, "Richard Miller"
<[email]> wrote:

In the not too distant future, coz the EU-critical
complainant would simultaneously get done for "xenophobia"?


author: Marc Living

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:01:56 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Miller"
<[email]> wrote:

Whilst I agree that there is no specific right to prosecute - nor a
specific right given to a prosecutor (as opposed to a defendant) to a
fair trial by an independent tribunal - an argument can be constructed
using Articles 6, 13* and 17 (and s.11 of the HRA) to say that the
Attorney General's residual discretion to discontinue is incompatible
with the HRA - or that it, at least, can now be reviewed by a court.

Unfortunately for anybody briefed to advance such an argument, there
have been two decisions of the ECHR which have refused to acknowledge
a general right, under Art 6, to have a third party prosecuted.

(* Although Art 13 has, strangely, been left out of the HRA, the Lord
Chancellor has confirmed that the courts should continue to take into
account the case law under that article.)


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
Bob Sims <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Since when does arrogance and insolence "justify" civil war?


author: Fergus O'Rourke

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Bob Sims" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Is this treason or not ?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Bob Sims" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Bob, Thatï¿½s a good characterization of your postings.


author: Phil Stovell

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 03:11:24 -0000 in alt.politics.british, "Bob Sims"
<[email]> wrote:

You *ARE* advocating civil war.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
ad c <[email]1> wrote in message news:<[email]1>...

Eh? The Euro is responsible for the poor performance of Germany? Why is that so?

Your computer corupted the word corupted.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Cliff Morrison" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
that's
reform)

Please be clear:

You are saying (1) that UK democracy works, and (2) that the UK has no
say
in EU decisions ?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
Cliff Morrison <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course he does, Cliff.

Because that arrangement does not hand power over to the cabel
of communist criminals who run the "EU".


subject: Rule of law in UK (Was:Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?)

text:
"Marc Living" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
(snip)
Lord
into
(snip)

What ?

The LC can in effect decree how the courts interpret the law ?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 01:25:38 +0000, Marc Living
<[email]> wrote:

Oops. That should read "take over [a private prosecution] and
discontinue".


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
Marc Living <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

The ECHR as the HRA are the result of treason. Therefore these laws do
not apply. Otherwise how could have Nuremberg taken place, or how
could have re-united Germanyï¿½s courts sit trial on GDR soldiers who
killed those trying to escape from one socialist paradise to West
Germany (another socialist paradise as some worthwhile contributors of
this NG make us believe).


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:07:09 -0000 in alt.politics.british, "Fergus O'Rourke"
<[email]> wrote:

Sounds like it.

That's where Bob mentioned civil war, dormouse.


author: jdc

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Till M Ruessmann"

Germany needs lower interest rates and a couple of years of higher
government deficits. The Euro of Maastricht prevents both of these things.

jdcxxx


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
In article <PxGY7.22948$[email]>, "Fergus O'Rourke"
<[email]> wrote:

No, it doesn't; but that wasn't directly what was being referred to -
which was the Bank of England, the Treasury and the public financing
system presently in operation.

Depends what you're meaning by "UK"... if the population in general, then
no not much at all and certainly not over the most serious issues. That
situation would be just as bad in or out of the single currency, though -
as it's the the WTO and suchlike at corporatist global level which dictate
the policies their puppet regime then implements. In that context, the
"EU" is just a regional office.


subject: Re: Rule of law in UK (Was:Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?)

text:
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:02:51 -0000, "Fergus O'Rourke"
<[email]> wrote:

Not as far as I'm aware. But Pepper v Hart means that the courts are
entitled to take his (and other MPs') speeches into account when
deciding what Prliament means by the HRA.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
On 2 Jan 2002 06:27:10 -0800, [email] (Till M
Ruessmann) wrote:

Eh?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"jdc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:oKEY7.41493$[email]...

I always thought the poor performance was due to the high labour costs in
Germany which IMO has nothing to do with the Euro. Besides interest rates
are that low alreday that the inflation target is likely to be missed.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Cliff Morrison" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
O'Rourke"
news:[email]...
to -

So what does "UK-based (and thereby reformable) " mean ?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL QUESTION?

text:
Marc Living <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Obviously any law that prevents the Bob Simsï¿½ of this world from
prosecuting traitors must be treason, right?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
Till M Ruessmann <[email]>

That might be part of it, but I don't see people accepting a reduction in
wages - it would defeat the point of competition. Possibly they will have to
lose some labour taxes.

Across the Eurozone, but not for Germany. Which is rather the point.

jdcxxx


author: Sam

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"jdc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:gNFY7.29583$[email]...

When UK per capita GDP is as high as Germany then
critical comments on the performance of their economy
might have some relevance.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"jdc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:gNFY7.29583$[email]...
to

You cannot blame the Euro for something which is caused by something
completely different - on the grounds that you cannot do anything about the
latter.

Inflation or interset rates ?


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:16:57 -0000, "Sam"
<[email]> wrote:

Is GDP necessarily the best sort of measure?

I understand that GDP includes, amongst many other things, the costs
of services provided by say the fire service, or health service. In
which case if Germany has a higher incidence of car accidents, which I
believe it does, and therefore this higher accident incidence means
more costs, which in turn feed into GDP, is having more accidents an
argument in favour of a high GDP?

Rgds


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Sam"

The average is not all that matters - a Briton still has only half the
chance of ending up unemployed as a German. Besides, according to EU figures
in May of last year (the latest I have), GDP per capita in US dollars was as
follows.

UK 25773
DE 24995
FR 23961
EZ 21950

Even at purchasing power parity instead, it was

DE 106.4
UK 103.1
FR  98.9

- A relatively small difference, especially when you think that it is before
taxes, which are much higher in most of the Eurozone than the UK.

jdcxxx


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Till M Ruessmann"

But German labour costs have been high for a while, it hasn't always meant
high unemployment.

Inflation.

jdcxxx


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Richard Buttrey" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
in
have to

Indeed. In addition as more people are killed by car accidents and less
pensioners are around the GDP will be driven up artificially as well.
Germany is a truly a dire place. Health service, public transport, the
environment - forget it. Qulaity of life is sooooooo much better in the UK.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"jdc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:2GGY7.30118$[email]...
figures
as

But I tell you one thing: the English have to work bloody hard for this!
About 20% more hours  than the Germans (or so I read in The Times half a
year ago).

before

Well, taxes are not meaningful in this context. In the end high taxes to a
large degree translate into better services - which I can tell as I just
made it back to Germany after 10 years UK.


subject: Euro/German Labour costs (Was:Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?)

text:
"jdc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:%FGY7.30117$[email]...

It can take a while - a very long while - for uncompetitiveness to "bite",
and the
absolute, or even relative, level of labour costs is only one element in the
equation


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"Till M Ruessmann"

I don't think the difference is quite that large, but the British working
week is longer.

I work a 40 hour week, so that would be illegal in France, for starters.

jdcxxx


author: alanG

subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:25:47 +0100, "Till M Ruessmann"
<[email]> wrote:

Did you have a tunnel or did you go over the wire?
Alan G


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"jdc" <[email]> wrote in message
news:pKHY7.30823$[email]...

Well, there is a 37.5 hour week, about 12 bank holidays, plus some 35 days
holidays. It adds up.


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
"alanG" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
was
a

I dug a tunnel, tricked the guards, and the final stretch was managed by a
motorbike :-)


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:55:57 -0000, "Till M Ruessmann"
<[email]> wrote:

Triumph I hope. None of this BMW stuff.
 --
Alan G

Fight for a fairer tax system
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.goss/Index.html


subject: Re: TREASON - A LEGAL ANSWER?

text:
alanG <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Why should I limit my chances? Besides it's far less conspicuous
driving a BMW in UK :-)


author: Rodrigo Calvo de No

subject: Re: EU-language?

text:
[email] wrote:

More rational? More rational than what? Wonderland?I'm very careful before
using the "Stalinist" tag, just as I'm with the "Nazi" or "fascist" tags.
Irrational politics aren't the same as totalitarian politics. The Walloon
socialists are no more irrational than the defenders of the Flemish
peasant. Who is just as dependent from state aid as the Walloon steelworker
(a disappearing species nowadays, anyway). Client politics are one of the
worst features of the Belgian political system. And the fragmentation of
the Belgian political system, divided between Flemish and French-speaking
(not just Walloon) political parties, hasn't helped there.

Has it? Then what the bloody hell is happening with the high speed rail
links?The main reason for the high debt was client politics, corruption and
graft. Of which Flemish politicians are just as guilty as their Southern
counterparts (just one word: Smeerpijp. And another: Dassault).
Otherwise, some Flemish politicians are very outspoken about the
North-South transfer of wealth. But, they are a lot more coy when it comes
to the contribution of the Brussels region to the national budget...

I'm not a specialist in Swiss politics, but as far as I know there are
bilingual as well as monolingual cantons. And in any case, when I've been
in Switzerland (not very often, that's true), I've seen a far more relaxed
approach to language, with multilingual administration all over the place.

So what? Nationalists have this quirk of bringing up past wrongs (often
quite difficult to prove: people have short memories). An overwhelming
majority of all Belgians weren't even born back then. Let's focus on the
present situation, shall we?In any case, I am not very tender with the
French-speaking politicians either. They are just as guilty of fuelling the
language wars for their own self-serving interests.

The city would have grown substantially, as all university towns have done
since university education became widespread in the '60s. It was indeed
plans for Leuven's expansion that precipitated the events back then. That
argument is a real sham. It is quite tragic how the university's growth was
stunted back then.I'm glad that you at least have some feelings for the
books. It would be nice if you also had some for the people (university
teachers and workers) that were expelled from their hometown in a really
nasty campaign. That sort of thing got a name in this decade in Yugoslavia.

I find it awfully ironic that it happened in an institution calling itself
a Catholic University. In Greek, "Catholic" means "universal". And the root
of the word "university" is too obvious for comment.
And now, the university tries to underline its open and cosmopolitan
character by offering courses in English, but French remains a non-issue.
How curious...

Regards,

Rodrigo Calvo


author: [redacted]

subject: Off-topic Re: EU-language?

text:
In article <[email]>,
  Rodrigo Calvo de No <[email]> wrote:

For example:
In 1995 the province of Brabant was split into Brussels, Flemish Brabant
an Walloon Brabant. Since then, people in the province know who is their
governor, have a governor they can talk with in their own language, a
real urban policy and a decentralized administration.

Flemish government recently set up a new (extra) pension fund, which the
Francophones are very opposed to, based on savings and investments in
stead of redistribution. Whilst most Flemish politicians say that a
reorganisation of the pension system is inevitable (like in all other
countries), if young people still want to receive the pension they think
they are paying for, Francophone (PS) politicians refuse even to talk
about reforms.

tags.
Walloon
steelworker
the
of
French-speaking

In fact, Flemish and Walloons are not only different ethnical groups,
but there are also large ideological differences and different
economical needs. Now, Flemish and Walloon politicians can choose their
clients independently :-) (I only wrote nowadays government is better,
not that has become ideal).

rail
Railways are still an issue of the federal government.

comes
Every day people from all over the country go and work in Brussels,
where a lot of multinational firms have their headquarters.
BTW, Flemish politicians are not against transfers in se, but they want
to make them visible and rational (excuse me for using the word
"rational" again").

been
relaxed
place.

Bilingual: Valais/Wallis Bern/Berne Fribourg/Freiburg
Graubuenden/Grigioni/Grischun.
All others are monolingual. In my experience, bilingualism French/German
isn't so whidespread amongst Swiss as it is amongst Belgians.
Did you ever go to the canton of Jura (monolingual French, till 1979
part of bilingual Bern? Tensions between French and German communities
in the North-East of Switzerland incidentally might get high; an
indication is the fact that our Walloon friend Josï¿½ Happart visits the
region quite often.

than
This isn't a "wrong". I'm just saying Belgium's constellation could be
very different, but politicians chose a certain path, opened certain
gates, and Belgium's centrifugal federalism is doomed to evolve
continuously.

done
indeed

Why should all towns of a country that is bilingual on a national level,
be bilingual? Except for Brussel a few villages along the linguistic
border, there are no areas inhabited by both communities. The growth of
Leuven's university would have caused immigration of more French
speaking personnel and students, who eventually would have decided to
stay there, thus forcing a de facto annexation of the town to the
bilingual region of Brussels.

growth was
How would it have been now if its growth hadn't been stunted back?
K.U.Leuven ranked third on "Der Spiegel"'s list of the best European
universities. UCL ranked tenth.

(university
really
Still autochthonous people (either Dutch or French speaking) from the
Flemish "rand" near Brussels have to search housing in other villages
than their hometown because of the arrival of Brussel's French speaking
bourgeoisie and the Eurocrats, and the subsequential rise of prices.

itself
root
non-issue.

- Foreign and Belgian students willing to study in French can always go
to the other university.
- In the faculty of law, a dozen of foreign professors teach every year
in English, French and German (and last year Afrikaans).
- In the faculty of Romance languages, a lot of general courses are
taught in French.
- We can still go to Louvain-La-Neuve's libraries without any entrance
fees.

Back to the original discussion: why should the principle of integration
into the local community not apply to infra-national (Francophone
Belgians moving to Flanders) migrations? In Limburg, there is a big
Italian minority all speaking Dutch fluently, eventhough these are the
families of the so called 'miners with a "low education"', who arrived
in the sixties, as opposed to the highly educated French speaking
immigrants from Brussels.

Kind regards,

Maarten Vidal

Maybe the following article (Le Soir, today - surprise, I read "Le Soir"
every day, to see the Francophone point of view, and not only "De
Standaard") is of interest to you:

"La sï¿½natrice PSC Magdeleine Willame et le dï¿½putï¿½ SP Robert Delathouwer
sont les initiateurs du mouvement Tibem (1) pour
la promotion du bilinguisme franï¿½ais-nï¿½erlandais et de l'apprentissage
des langues. Ils ont prï¿½sentï¿½, mardi, les rï¿½sultats d'une
enquï¿½te sur le bilinguisme des Belges (2).

Tibem tire trois leï¿½ons des rï¿½ponses au premier item ï¿½Quelles langues
ont ï¿½tudiï¿½es les Belges?ï¿½. Primo, les Wallons ont moins
ï¿½tudiï¿½ la deuxiï¿½me langue nationale que les Flamands et les Bruxellois.
Ainsi, 71% des Flamands ont ï¿½tudiï¿½ le franï¿½ais comme
deuxiï¿½me langue, tandis que 51% des Wallons et 63% des Bruxellois, ont
appris le nï¿½erlandais. Deux: les Bruxellois ont ï¿½tudiï¿½
l'anglais (72%) plutï¿½t que le nï¿½erlandais (63%).

Trois: le bilinguisme est une rï¿½alitï¿½ plus en Flandre et ï¿½ Bruxelles
qu'en Wallonie: 36% des Wallons n'ont ï¿½tudiï¿½ aucune langue
autre que leur idiome, contre 24 % des Flamands et 12% des Bruxellois.

Tibem constate que les Flamands sont meilleurs que les Wallons pour ce
qui est de la maï¿½trise des langues: 57 % des
nï¿½erlandophones disent maï¿½triser ï¿½tout ï¿½ fait correctementï¿½ ou ï¿½plus ou
moins correctementï¿½ l'anglais, et 44 % le franï¿½ais; 43
% des Wallons en disent autant de l'anglais, et 25% du nï¿½erlandais. A
Bruxelles, l'ï¿½cart est presque nul: 77% pour l'anglais;
75% pour la deuxiï¿½me langue nationale.

Les Bruxellois sont les Belges qui ont ï¿½tudiï¿½ le plus longtemps la
deuxiï¿½me langue nationale: 8,2 annï¿½es, contre 6,83 annï¿½es
pour les Flamands et 5,1 annï¿½es pour les Wallons.

Les Flamands, cependant, consacrent plus de temps ï¿½ l'apprentissage des
langues hors ï¿½tudes.

Magdeleine Willame et Robert Delathouwer feront de nouveau, mardi
prochain, une prï¿½sentation liminaire des rï¿½sultats de cette
ï¿½tude d'Inra-Marketing Unit au cours d'un dï¿½bat sur le thï¿½me ï¿½Tous
bilingues ï¿½ 18 ans, un dï¿½fi ï¿½ releverï¿½ (3). Dï¿½bat auquel
participeront Jos Chabert (CVP), Magda De Galan (PS), Marie Nagy
(Ecolo), Annemie Neyts (VLD) et Alain Zenner (PRL).
Catï¿½chiseront-ils les (ï¿½ventuels) auditeurs unilingues? Notre souci est
d'ï¿½tre plus ouverts les uns aux autres par
l'apprentissage des langues, indique Willame.

E. L.

(1) ï¿½Tweetaligheid in beweging - Bilinguisme en mouvementï¿½: mouvement de
citoyens en faveur de l'apprentissage des
langues; Tï¿½l.: 02-501.75.49, Fax: 02-514.34.67.

(2) Etude rï¿½alisï¿½e par Inra-Marketing Unit sur un ï¿½chantillon de 700
personnes reprï¿½sentatif de la population belge.
Intervalle de confiance: 97,5 %. Marge d'erreur: 2,5 %.

(3) Mardi 25 mai, de 18 ï¿½ 20 heures, ï¿½ la maison des Parlementaires
(salle des congrï¿½s, rue de Louvain, 21, ï¿½ 1009
Bruxelles)."

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---


subject: Re: Off-topic Re: EU-language?

text:
[email] wrote:

I was away for a long week-end, so I couldn't answer this. The split of
Brabant may have been rational in a few aspects, but it has led to very
irrational effects in others...see the Drogenbos Incinerator Battle. The
fact is that apart from the language split, Brabant is quite an integrated
territory, with both the French- and Flemish-speaking parts heavily
dependent of Brussels. And, face it, it is a tiny spot in the map which
hardly needed further splitting. The main benefit from that reform didn't
come from decentralization, but, on the contrary, from the fact that
Brussels itself got for the first time a reasonably strong central
administration (in the form of the Brussels Region) to impose some order on
its 19 fractious municipalities (the division of Brussels is itself a
flagrant example of the pitfalls of Belgian "split politics"...it is a shame
they still haven't come around to build a decent waste water treatment
system)

I must say I've been quite bored of the Belgian pension debate. It is hard
to say which side is more disingenous: the Flemings want to split the social
security system now because they don't want to pay for Walloon unemployed.
The Walloons are evidently against that, but also quite rightly point out
that demography shows that in a few years it's possibly the Walloons who'll
have to pay for Flemish pensioners.I personally just have to say that, if
the system has to have some solidarity built into it, I don't see why it
should stop at language barriers. In short: if you refuse to pay for Walloon
unemployeds...why should you pay for Flemish unemployeds?

Different ethnical groups?! For God's sake, look at the phone books in
Liege, Brussels and Antwerp and compare the family names! There are
thousands of French-speaking Vandermeulens and just as many Flemish-speaking
Durands! You are hopelessly intermingled! Ethnic purity is a fallacy anyway:
I'm as Spanish and Spanish-looking as you can get...yet I have a Vandernoot
of Brussels among my distant ancestors!

What a big step...

Still, my point stands. Wafer politics are still alive and well. And you
aren't going to rationalize *any* transportation system by splitting it
further and further. Already European rail networks are plagued by
fragmentation, with differing standards, power systems and even track
widths.

Maybe because Brussels is such a varied, multicultural environment. Haven't
you thought of that? After all, Antwerp would otherwise seem a much more
rational choice.

I also just used it. Even if it seems a bit out of context when speaking of
Belgian politics.

Well, those you cite are among the most populated, aren't they? (And also
among  the most prosperous, but that's another matter...)

Happart is an arse. Just like some Flemish politicians often visiting the
Basque country.I'm afraid that "ethnic imbecility", a sometime lethal
syndrome leading to classify and divide people along supposed ethnic
faultlines, is quite widespread and might even affect some feeble minds in
Switzerland. Still, it isn't quite as endemic there as in Belgium. Just as
Belgium hasn't been quite so badly affected as former Yugoslavia.

Where human minds are concerned, nothing is "doomed". Just as European
integration isn't "doomed" to succeed (something I regret), Belgian
disintegration isn't "doomed" to happen. Beware politicians that present a
policy as something unavoidable...that only means that they are at a loss of
arguments to justify it.

When did I say that? If you read my previous arguments, I've said that
administrations should be forthcoming and address all members of public in
their own language, as far as it is practicable. Which should be the case if
a sizeable part of the population speaks that language. This is the case
with French around Brussels...but not in Turnhout, for instance. But this
could very well also be the case with Arabic in Brussels...BTW, as I try to
explain to you from the beginning, towns cannot be bilingual or monolingual.
Stones and bricks do not speak. The languages spoken in most places in
Europe have changed along the time, with the movement of people and the
cultural evolution. So, for instance, in Maastricht Latin was once spoken.
Then old Germanic. Then something like Flemish. Then French. Then
Limburgsch, which now, thanks to schools, radio and TV is coming closer and
closer to normalized Dutch (and some may say that English in the future)

So what?! What is a "de facto annexation" and why would it have been so
nocive to Leuven to accept a sizeable contingent of highly qualified
academics and scientists happening to speak French as a first language?
Please explain...

In my book, settling for third best is called "mediocrity". I don't believe
that the sum of third and tenth best gives sixth of seventh. Fact is, Leuven
lost a chance to be something quite unique...

Argument I've heard more than enough. Argument also more and more frequently
used against people settling in border areas (be it the Dutch in Belgium,
Germans in Belgium, France or Denmark...even Spanish Basques settling in the
French Basque Country). Disgusting, demagogic argument...and also profoundly
wrong: those (more or less affluent) people settling over do have an impact
in housing prices...but they also have an impact in the local economy, as
they spend their money there. Without them, many of the original locals
would be out of a job...and wouldn't be able to afford any housing at
all.BTW, I do know a girl born and raised in Linkebeek. She isn't going back
to Belgium anymore. She lives now in Holland and in England before that. A
Fleming who couldn't afford housing in Linkebeek anymore? Nope, a disgusted
and quite bilingual French-speaker...

Or to another Belgian French-speaking university. Or to France. Or
Switzerland. Or Quebec. So what?

Very commendable, and I wasn't aware of that. Mind you, it *does* make quite
a lot of sense to teach foreign law systems in the original language, as
some legal terms are impossible to translate, for lack of equivalent legal
figures. This said, it *is* pretty ironic to let only *foreign* law
professors use French

Quite natural, I think.

As you should, since the books were split in such a curious manner.

I do not appreciate the so-called "principle of integration" very highly in
the first place, as you should have understood by now. Migrations should be
seen as opportunities to enrich the local culture, not as menaces to it. A
segment of the population shouldn't be considered less part of the local
culture just because it arrived more recently. If they are there...face it,
they are locals. And it is as necessary for the rest of the locals to try to
adapt to them as it is for them to adapt to the rest.

They didn't have much of a choice, did they? And just as it is the case with
Mexicans in California, for instance, their generally low level of education
made it easier to instil into them a sense of cultural inferiority...

  Of course, that article doesn't say anything new to me. I know that the
Flemings speak generally better French than the French-speakers Flemish.
Which is a pity for the French-speakers...(this often means they are less
qualified for a number of jobs where bilingualism is a must). And the
article in itself should be a clear indication of a real concern among them
about this situation...
The evident explanation is that there is more motivation to learn a widely
spoken language such as French than to learn a language only spoken by
"just" some 22 million people generally confined to a very small
geographical area (just the region in Spain where I come from is bigger than
the whole of the Benelux). Which is just why English-speakers are usually so
hopeless when it comes to foreign languages...
I'm not trying to justify it, just to explain it.

Regards,

Rodrigo Calvo


author: John Schonholtz

subject: No word for "efficiency" in the Russian language?

text:
I just heard an interview on NPR in which the "expert" being interviewed
claimed that the Russian language has no word for "efficiency".  Is this
really true, or was he stretching the truth a little?  If this is so, it
would explain a lot!


author: Thierry Dolidon

subject: Re: No word for "efficiency" in the Russian language?

text:
The Russian word for "efficiency" is "effektivnost". You may notice
its termination in "-ost" (abstract word, like "-ship" or "-hood" in
English) like "glasnost" (from "golos"=voice).

On the other side, I may add a remark :
present name of Sunday is "voskresenie" (resurrection). Former name was
"nediela" which means "do nothing". Monday is "ponedelnik" (the day after
do nothing). In Czech, "nediele" means still Sunday. In Russian, "nediela"
means the WHOLE week. Salut !
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <[email]>, [email] (John
Schonholtz) writes:
|>I just heard an interview on NPR in which the "expert" being interviewed
|>claimed that the Russian language has no word for "efficiency".  Is this
|>really true, or was he stretching the truth a little?  If this is so, it
|>would explain a lot!
|>--
|>John Schonholtz						[email]
|>Idealism + Pragmatism = Cynicism

Thierry DOLIDON, Bull S.A.    e-mail: [email]
Software Development Methodology    F60G10     Bull     BP.53
78340 Les Clayes sous Bois, France
#include <disclaimer>              | Emplacement publicitaire a louer
| Nanimaetsa miesto dlia reklamy   | Advertisement place for rent


text:
The Russian word for "efficiency" is "effektivnost". You may notice
its termination in "-ost" (abstract word, like "-ship" or "-hood" in
English) like "glasnost" (from "golos"=voice).

On the other side, I may add a remark :
present name of Sunday is "voskresenie" (resurrection). Former name was
"nediela" which means "do nothing". Monday is "ponedelnik" (the day after
do nothing). In Czech, "nediele" means still Sunday. In Russian, "nediela"
means the WHOLE week. Salut !
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <[email]>, [email] (John
Schonholtz) writes:
|>I just heard an interview on NPR in which the "expert" being interviewed
|>claimed that the Russian language has no word for "efficiency".  Is this
|>really true, or was he stretching the truth a little?  If this is so, it
|>would explain a lot!
|>--
|>John Schonholtz						[email]
|>Idealism + Pragmatism = Cynicism

Thierry DOLIDON, Bull S.A.    e-mail: [email]
Software Development Methodology    F60G10     Bull     BP.53
78340 Les Clayes sous Bois, France
#include <disclaimer>              | Emplacement publicitaire a louer
| Nanimaetsa miesto dlia reklamy   | Advertisement place for rent


author: Carl Turner

text:
<[email]> [email] (John Schonholtz) writes:

Perhaps this is the same expert consulted by Ronald Reagan when the
ex-pres declared that there is no word for "freedom" in Russian.


author: Dmitry V. Volodin

text:
[email] (John Schonholtz) writes:

Guess what does "effektivnost'" mean. And check you nearest Russian
vocabulary why I call these experts "pridurki" (singular - "pridurok").

Dima


author: Scott Horne

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (John Schonholtz) writes:
<I just heard an interview on NPR in which the "expert" being interviewed
<claimed that the Russian language has no word for "efficiency".

Presumably this is the great Russian linguist Ronald Reagan, who used to
claim that there's no Russian word for `freedom'.

					--Scott


author: Herschel Browne

text:
In article <[email]>, [email]
(HE-DAN Master of the Universe) says:

And this reminds *me* of something that happened in my first-year
German class. We had a little translation (English-to-German)
excercise that had a sentence something like "Would you like
a piece of cake?" One student had rendered this as "Moechten Sie
ein Kinderspiel?" The instructor was bewildered. I was amused.

H.


author: Igor Sheyn

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David Kane) writes:
   Although people have posted assorted words for freedom and effeciency and
   the like, they are not necessarily literal translations.  A Russian techer
   of mine noted that freedom in Russian expresses a freedom to do somehting,
   whereas freedom in our sense of the word is freedom from something.  Its
   an important distinction, and reflects our attitudes towards government and
   privacy.

What do you mean by "freedom from something"?


author: Pekka J Taipale

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David Kane) writes:

This particular example of Eskimo words for snow is a myth, not a fact.
See recent discussion in alt.folklore.urban.

Otherwise, I have nothing to add - I agree that language reflects
the needs of the people that uses it, it is greatly affected by the
ways of the people.


author: Paul Nevai

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Carl Turner) writes:

Maybe yes maybe not. BUT: there is no word for "privacy" in Russian (or
in Hungarian for that matter). I guarantee it.

Paul Nevai                            [email] (Internet)
Department of Mathematics             nevai@ohstpy (BITNET)
The Ohio State University             1-(614)-292-3317 (Office)
P.O. Box 3341                         1-(614)-292-5310 (Answering Machine)
Columbus, OH 43210-0341, USA          1-(614)-459-5615 (FAX)


author: Wayne Citrin

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Scott Horne) writes:

The interview was with a Russian television crew which was in the US making
a series of documentaries on small businesses in the US.  The statement was
made by one of the Russian correspondents who was interviewed.

This whole discussion reminds me of a discussion I had at a party where
someone claimed that there was no word in the German language for "convenient".

Wayne

Wayne Citrin
[email]
[email]


author: Sharon Machlis Gartenberg

text:
This discussion is aggravating both me & my tendons :-)
My last comment -- The SU has many talented & well-educated engineers.
Surely they have a way to describe whether a motor design is or is not
using fuel efficiently; how efficient an HVAC design is; etc. I have
spoken w/ Soviet engineers who have no trouble at all with this
concept, of course.

Sharon


author: Stanislaw Semczuk

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Paul Nevai) writes:

	I know nothing about Hungrian, but in Russian it is "pokoy". One
would argue that this rather peace, than privacy, but there is nothing like
exact translation of any particular word of any language to a single
particular word of another.
Sincerely
stas


text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Paul Nevai) writes:
<In article <[email]> [email] (Carl Turner) writes:
<><[email]> [email] (John Schonholtz) writes:
<>
<>Perhaps this is the same expert consulted by Ronald Reagan when the
<>ex-pres declared that there is no word for "freedom" in Russian.
<
<Maybe yes maybe not.

Absolutely not.  One such word is _svoboda_.

<BUT: there is no word for "privacy" in Russian (or
<in Hungarian for that matter). I guarantee it.

People frequently make claims like this and draw from them the conclusion
that the concept of privacy (or freedom, efficiency, whatever) cannot be
expressed in the language in question and therefore must be foreign to
speakers of the language.  That is simply not true.  It's possible to discuss
privacy in English without using the word `privacy' or any of its synonyms;
why shouldn't that be just as easy to do in other languages?

Any decent introductory text on linguistics (yes, I know that that rules out
quite a few :-) ) should treat this topic in greater detail.

					--Scott


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Paul Nevai) writes:
Pochemu v Langenscheidt Pocket Russian Dictionary "privacy -- uedinenye;
sokhranenye v taine"?


author: Zhenya Gorokhovsky

subject: Re: Privacy (was No word for "efficiency")

text:
Webster: privacy : state of being private or alone
         private : 1) personal; not public
                   2) secret, confidential;being alone

         private:  1) lichniy; ne ocshchestvenniy
                   2) secretniy, konfidentsial'niy; uedinenyonniy [ie]
         privacy : sostoyanie uedineniya, uyedinyonnost'

Now please, how to say in English "pogrom"?
Oh, you use  pogrom  as well, you say. I see.  Does it mean that
there are no pogroms here? Look at Crown Heights.
  Presence or absence of a single word for a certain concept in any language
does not say anything about presence or absence of this concept
in culture of the people who speak this language.
  Now please translate from Russian word which is certainly more applicable
to Americans than to Russians: "zazhravhijsya"
  This word comes to my mind when somebody says that there is
no word for privacy in Russian.


author: Christopher Biow

text:
The easiest way to evaluate the significance of these questions
is to look at the language we are using:  English.

English has no words for "perestroika," "junta," "coup d'etat,"
"glasnost," or "putsch." But we have no trouble understanding
or expresing the concepts--we just import the words we need.f*

The presence or absence of words for certain concepts has more
to do with history that with mental limitations of speakers of
a given language.


author: Nick Szabo

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Stanislaw Semczuk) writes:
[word for "privacy"]

What is the difference in meanings between "mir" and "pokoy"?


author: Mikhail Zeleny

subject: Re: No word for "efficiency" in the Russian langu

text:
In article <[email]>
[email] (Stanislaw Semczuk) writes:

somebody else:

PN:

Try:

"A kotelok po zhope b'yot
"I mne pokoya ne dayot,
"Svoboda, blya, svoboda, blya, svovoda!"

PN:

SS:

It certainly doesn't mean that, as used above.  On the other hand, you may
wish to translate `Ostav'te menya v pokoye!' loosely, as in `Give me some
privacy!', rather than idiomatically, as `Leave me alone!', or literally,
if unnaturally, as `Leave me in peace!'

As for wide-ranging cultural implications, the concept of privacy is,
indeed, rather alien to the soon-to-be-ex-Soviet society; moreover, its
positive sense is rather hard to convey in Russian even by circumlocution.
Which is not to say that it has no chance of developing there, associating
with the newly imported term `privatnost''.  Incidentally, there is no term
for privacy in French, either; all budding sociolinguists are invited to
draw comparative conclusions.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
| ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?''   |
|                                (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938)   |
| Mikhail Zeleny                                           Harvard   |
| 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                         doesn't   |
| Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139                            think    |
| (617) 661-8151                                              so     |
| email [email] or [email]        |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/


author: Jess Anderson

subject: Privacy (was No word for "efficiency")

text:
In article <[email]>
[email] (Stanislaw Semczuk) writes:

Nonsense.  Rain = dozhd'.  Each is an exact translation of the
other.

Pokoj *is* peace (in the sense of repose).  It is nothing like
privacy.

<> For what a man would like to to be true, that he more
<> readily believes. -- Francis Bacon


author: Igor Rubinstein

text:
Private	- privatn[o], ~iy (old Russian word), Knowledge or information not
intended for distribution.

Efficiency - effectivnost.  Freedom - svoboda.

Interstingly enough, some of the English words, have the same meaning in Russian
language. Note English word "occasion".  The Russian word "okaziy", occasionally
(pun intended) means exactly the same thing.

			--Igor.


author: INFIDEL

text:
Hey, Sharon, take care of those hands, you hear ?

Anyhow, now that we're playing this "find the word which I betcha
doesn't exist" game,   find the following words [apologies for wrong
spelling]:

(a)  bureaucracy  in Japanese;
(b)  amaeru  (Japanese)  in English;
(c)  wspolcucie  (Polish) in English  (with the right connotation,
please);
(d)  niepodlegloscisty (Polish)  in  English;
(e)  gong 'an ju  (Chinese) in English  (with right connotations of
syllables please)

There are some deep questions hanging around here. Anyone feel like
diving into the deep end and offering a discourse ?

JW


text:
In article <[email]>
[email] (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

PN:

SMG:

For the same reason my Langenscheidt Pocket French Dictionary gives
`intimit\'e' and `secret' as putative French equivalents.  Most bilingual
dictionaries, with the conspicuous exception of the Oxford Latin
Dictionary, the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, and so on, are not in the
business of supplying exact equivalents.  In this case, reverse translation
will give `seclusion' and `secrecy', respectively.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
| ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?''   |
|                                (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938)   |
| Mikhail Zeleny                                           Harvard   |
| 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                         doesn't   |
| Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139                            think    |
| (617) 661-8151                                              so     |
| email [email] or [email]        |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/


author: HE-DAN Master of the Universe

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:

Potomu chto ego pisal inostranets.  V slovare Ozhegova: "uedinenie - Prebyvanie
v odinochestve _Zhit'  v uedinenii_."  I v Langenscheidt Pocket Russian
Dictionary my vidim "uedinenie -- solitude"  I v Oksforde Pocket Russian
Dictionary "uedinenie -- solitude; seclusion."

I am a native American English speaker and do not consider "solitude/seclusion"
to be the same as privacy.  One cannot look at one entry (especially one
that goes from one lang to another) and say,"Yup, that's it.  It's written
here so it must be so."

For example, in the 17 vol. Acad. Dict., an entry under "rebyata" states
"Molodyje lyudi, parni... O gruppe lits muzhkogo pola; obrashchenie k
gruppe muzhkogo pola"  When we all know it is not just used when referring
to "male" persons. You gotta remember, dictionaries are compiled by a
group of people much like ourselves.  They are not always right (nor
do they include everything).

I can remember a story a colleague (oh, I sound so academic, don't I?) told
me.  A student wanted the word "overall" as in "Overall, I believe..."  She
looked it up in her Langenscheidt and found "spetsodezhda"  You gotta
cross reference!!!!

Dan Brown
[email]


text:
Zhenya Gorokhovsky writes:

Also (Polish):     private:  privatny, sekretny, ...

JW


author: David M Pesetsky

text:
Russian lacks separate words for fingers and toes.  Must say something
deep about their culture.

By the way, the Eskimo snow business is a hoax, as documented by Geoff
Pullum in a chapter of a recently published book (based upon someone
else's research -- I forget the name).

-David Pesetsky
 Dept. of Linguistics and Philosophy


author: vlad

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Jess Anderson) writes:

The Russian word for "privacy" is "chastnost'". It just happens that it is
never used in the noun form. However, it is often used in the adjective
form:

	private life - chastnaya zhizn'

	private property - chastnoye imuschestvo

Vlad

Disclaimer: my employer may disagree


text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Igor Rubinstein) writes:
					^^^^^^^

Gee, I thought that meant "dropped an easy fly ball". -:)

	Seth Rosenthal


author: David Kane

text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (INFIDEL) writes:
|>Hey, Sharon, take care of those hands, you hear ?
|>
|>Anyhow, now that we're playing this "find the word which I betcha
|>doesn't exist" game,   find the following words [apologies for wrong
|>spelling]:
|>
|>(a)  bureaucracy  in Japanese;
|>(b)  amaeru  (Japanese)  in English;
|>(c)  wspolcucie  (Polish) in English  (with the right connotation,
|>please);
|>(d)  niepodlegloscisty (Polish)  in  English;
|>(e)  gong 'an ju  (Chinese) in English  (with right connotations of
|>syllables please)
|>
|>
|>There are some deep questions hanging around here. Anyone feel like
|>diving into the deep end and offering a discourse ?

I'll take a stab at it.

Language is a powerful indicator of the societies customs and culture.  For
example, in the language of the Eskimoes, there are some 200 different ways
to say "snow."   For them, the differences can be critical, and that
importance is reflected in their langauge.

In George Orwell's 1984, the restriction of language is used as a tool to
supress its people.  If the conecpt of rebellion is foreign to a language
and a culture, how can one rebel?

Although people have posted assorted words for freedom and effeciency and
the like, they are not necessarily literal translations.  A Russian techer
of mine noted that freedom in Russian expresses a freedom to do somehting,
whereas freedom in our sense of the word is freedom from something.  Its
an important distinction, and reflects our attitudes towards government and
privacy.

Simply having a pocket dictionary that relexifies Russian words for English
words isn't enough to claim equivalence.  You must understand the context
in which the word is appropriate.  At the very least, the Russian-English
reference should be followed up with a dictionary meaning, otherwise its
like looking the meaning of a word with a thesaurus.

=================================================================
=                                                               =
=        David Kane   [email]	=
= 	                                                        =
=		           "I'm here."			        =
=							        =
=================================================================


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David M Pesetsky) writes:

WHAT?!?!?!

How about.....palets (bol'shoj ~ = thumb; ukazatel'nyj ~ = index; srednij ~
= middle; bezymyannyj ~ = ring; mininets = little finger)  For the toes
they use the same name but put nogi (of the "foot") after it.

Then again, look at English.  I know the "big toe" but all the others I have
to say something like "the toe next to the big one"  or "pinkey toe".  Does
this, too, say something "deep" about our culture???  (Perhaps we all have
latenet sexual hang-ups about the toes and, as with the genitals, we cover
them up by not naming them---s bol'shim sarkasmom)

dan brown                             Words are like unto the dung of cattle;
Department of Slavic Langs and Lits   and if thou flingest a sufficiency
University of Illinois, UC            thereof at the side of a barn, doth
[email]             not a goodly portion stick?
                                        (hmmm. Reminds me of cAcademia.)


author: Joe Halpin

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David M Pesetsky) writes:

What does 'palets' mean then? The Russians I know think it means 'finger'
or 'toe'.

Is there a point to all this searching for words that aren't supposed to
be there? It's fun and all, but is there a prize or anything if one is
found?

Joe
-------


subject: 1913 (was re: No word for "efficiency" in the Russian language)

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David M Pesetsky) writes:

It certainly does: those prehensile toes are going to be a great help in
aiding the switch from the Great March towards the Radiant Future to the
good old days of chauvinism, plutocracy, and absolute monarchy.

Happy trails.  See you in 1913.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
| ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?''   |
|                                (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938)   |
| Mikhail Zeleny                                           Harvard   |
| 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                         doesn't   |
| Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139                            think    |
| (617) 661-8151                                              so     |
| email [email] or [email]        |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/


text:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (David M Pesetsky) writes:
|>Russian lacks separate words for fingers and toes.  Must say something
|>deep about their culture.

	I've never studied math in the Soviet Union, or done a comparative
study of mathmatical teching methods in history, but you might find a
difference.  Has anyone heard of a culture using base 20?

=================================================================
=                                                               =
=        David Kane   [email]	=
= 	                                                        =
=		           "I'm here."			        =
=							        =
=================================================================


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (vlad) writes:

                            ...which is to say, it is not a Russian word.

This is, of course, quite irrelevant.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
| ``If there are no Platonic ideals, then what did we fight for?''   |
|                                (A Spanish anarchist, after 1938)   |
| Mikhail Zeleny                                           Harvard   |
| 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                         doesn't   |
| Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139                            think    |
| (617) 661-8151                                              so     |
| email [email] or [email]        |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/


author: Oleg Kiselev

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (David Kane) writes:

You may right about that.  But doesn't "freedom" in English also mean
"freedom to" as well as "freedom from"?

For that matter, in both Russian and English the expression like "freedom from
[xxxx]" sounds a lot clumsier than "freedom to [yyyy]".

On the other hand, there is one interesting similarity of Russian and
English languages -- both have the important concept of an "old fart".


author: John Schonholtz

text:
Good lord!

I have posted many times to the net on many subjects, but never have I said
anything that attracted a fraction of the flameage that this did.  Okay, I
should have said "MIGHT explain a lot" instead of "would explain a lot", but I
remain baffled as to what I said that was so awful.

Anyway, there is one guy who doesn't think that I'm an imbecile for
suggesting the lack of a word for efficiency might lead to a lack of
efficiency:
In article <[email]> [email] (David Kane) writes:
In article <[email]>,
[email] (INFIDEL) writes:
[stuff deleted]
|>There are some deep questions hanging around here. Anyone feel like
|>diving into the deep end and offering a discourse ?

Don't you have this backwards?  It seems to me that Russians are more
interested in freedom *from* (hunger, disease, disorder), while Americans
are more interested in freedom *to* (say what you want, do what you want,
live where you want).

Perhaps.  Common sense tells us that sometimes this is meaningful, as in
the apparent lack of a word for privacy, and sometimes not, as in the lack
of separate words for fingers and toes (as pointed out by our resident
linguistics professor--he makes a good point but what did I say to make
him so angry?).  I still think it's significant that "anticonstitutional"
has entered the language as a result of the coup.


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (HE-DAN Master of the Universe) writes:

That's what he said: there is no separate words for "toe" vs. "finger"

But hey!  Japanese have some 2-3 dozen words to describe suicide.  Must
be something truely socio-psychologically profound about that.


author: Rob Bernardo

text:
[email] (David Kane) wrote:

Actually, yes. The language in what is now France prior to Latinization
counted by 20's.  Remnants of this show up in the numbers from eighty to
99, e.g. "ninety" is "quartre-vingt dix", literally "four twenties ten".


text:
In article <[email]>
[email] (Oleg Kiselev) writes:

Naturally, one must defer to expert testimony! :-)

A eto tochno kak po-russki?
(Old fart, I mean, not expert testimony.)

<> Writers, like teeth, are divided into incisors and
<> grinders. -- Walter Bagehot


text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (John
Schonholtz) writes:
|>Good lord!
|>
|>I have posted many times to the net on many subjects, but never have I said
|>anything that attracted a fraction of the flameage that this did.  Okay, I
|>should have said "MIGHT explain a lot" instead of "would explain a
lot", but I
|>remain baffled as to what I said that was so awful.
|>
|>Anyway, there is one guy who doesn't think that I'm an imbecile for
|>suggesting the lack of a word for efficiency might lead to a lack of
|>efficiency:
|>In article <[email]>
[email] (David Kane) writes:
|>In article <[email]>,
|>[email] (INFIDEL) writes:
|>[stuff deleted]
|>|>There are some deep questions hanging around here. Anyone feel like
|>|>diving into the deep end and offering a discourse ?
|>
|>>I'll take a stab at it.
|>
|>>In George Orwell's 1984, the restriction of language is used as a tool to
|>>supress its people.  If the concept of rebellion is foreign to a language
|>>and a culture, how can one rebel?
|>
|>>Although people have posted assorted words for freedom and effeciency and
|>>the like, they are not necessarily literal translations.  A Russian techer
|>>of mine noted that freedom in Russian expresses a freedom to do somehting,
|>>whereas freedom in our sense of the word is freedom from something.
|>
|>Don't you have this backwards?  It seems to me that Russians are more
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>interested in freedom *from* (hunger, disease, disorder), while Americans
|>are more interested in freedom *to* (say what you want, do what you want,
|>live where you want).

	I don't think so.  Take the freedom of speech.  Our freedom is a
freedom from government intervention.  We are free to do many things with
that right.  To compile a list of the the the freedoms to do that that
entails would be endless.   We are free FROM government intervention.

	On the other hand, the Soviet press had the right to present
A paper with A view, the appoved view.  The freedom to print that kind
of press is a limited freedom to do, while the list of forbidden items
is quite long and extensive, (and flexible beyond imagination :+)   The
government offers freedoms TO do things instead.

|>>Its an important distinction, and reflects our attitudes towards government
|>>and privacy.

|>John Schonholtz						[email]
|>Idealism + Pragmatism = Cynicism

=================================================================
=                                                               =
=        David Kane   [email]	=
= 	                                                        =
=		           "I'm here."			        =
=							        =
=================================================================


author: Sharon Machlis Gartenberg

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (John Schonholtz) writes:

There is no single word for "pursuit of happiness" in the English language,
even though that's a  pretty important concept here (the Declaration of
Independence, the Reagan years :-) ). The fact that it takes 3 words, not 1,
does not diminish its importance or our understanding.

Your suggestion seems to be that Russians have no concept of what efficiency
is. If I were Russian, I would find that extremely condescending and
insulting. In fact, I still find it insulting to the Russian people.


author: Carl Turner

text:
<[email]> [email] (John Schonholtz) writes:

You didn't say anything "awful."  You took a single, flawed piece of data
by an unnamed "expert" and drew some inferences from it.  Your comment drew
some pretty interesting discussion on the relation between language,
concepts, and behavior.

On another subject entirely, it is interesting to me that large numbers of
people will remember and repeat as truth the most fantastical statements
by popular political and religious leaders, so long as it fits with their
personal world-view.  "There's no word for freedom in Russian," "Trees
cause pollution," etc.  A little scepticism is a healthy thing.


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Oleg Kiselev) writes:

			  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm sorry but that's NOT what he said.  If he had in mind what you suggest,
he should have said, "separate words for finger and toe" (note: singular)

dan brown
[email]


text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Oleg
Kiselev) writes:
|>In article <[email]>
[email] (HE-DAN Master of the Universe) writes:
|>>>Russian lacks separate words for fingers and toes.  Must say something
|>>>deep about their culture.
|>>How about.....palets (bol'shoj ~ = thumb; ukazatel'nyj ~ = index; srednij ~
|>>= middle; bezymyannyj ~ = ring; mininets = little finger)  For the toes
|>>they use the same name but put nogi (of the "foot") after it.
|>
|>That's what he said: there is no separate words for "toe" vs. "finger"
|>
|>But hey!  Japanese have some 2-3 dozen words to describe suicide.  Must
|>be something truely socio-psychologically profound about that.

Perhaps that is true.   The size, number and organization of kamakazee
attcks in WWII might be indicative of that as well.  It would certainly
seem to be consistant.

=================================================================
=                                                               =
=        David Kane   [email]	=
= 	                                                        =
=		           "I'm here."			        =
=							        =
=================================================================


author: Hubey

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Rob Bernardo) writes:

Isn't this going a bit too far off ?? (Please see below.)

How about this famous line;

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this
continent....."

What does that say about English ??  The phenomenon of counting in
'twenties' was probably much more widespread.  It probably all goes
back to those olden but not golden days when people counted on their
fingers and toes.  The English language itself has different
structure for words up to twenty then changes gears.

The word 'digit' itself comes from Latin 'digitus' which means
finger and there are other words which show this meaning.  In fact,
there are references in the English language --borrowed from Latin--
which even stretch back to more primitive times.  Calculus means
pebble (i.e.  reckoning stones were used in calculation.)  'Calculate'
obviously comes from the same root.


text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Jess Anderson) writes:

It's close, but not exactly the same: "staryi perdun."


author: Gary Coffman

text:
In article <[email]> [email] (Carl Turner) writes:

And blind disbelief is just as bad. The research that supports the claim
that "Trees cause pollution" came from Ga Tech and is sound. That blue
haze Daniel Boone saw over the Great Smokey Mountains didn't come from
tourist automobiles. Trees are the number one source of hydrocarbon
atmospheric pollution in the Southeast. Just because a politician says
something doesn't automatically make it wrong.

Gary


author: Joe Buck

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] (Gary Coffman) writes:
|> And blind disbelief is just as bad. The research that supports the claim
|> that "Trees cause pollution" came from Ga Tech and is sound. That blue
|> haze Daniel Boone saw over the Great Smokey Mountains didn't come from
|> tourist automobiles. Trees are the number one source of hydrocarbon
|> atmospheric pollution in the Southeast. Just because a politician says
|> something doesn't automatically make it wrong.

Off the subject, but I can't let this one stand.  Pollution != the
aromatic hydrocarbons produced by trees.

It is true that the haze in the Great Smoky Mountains is produced by
certain hydrocarbons coming from trees.  However, these hydrocarbons
are not harmful to living things (if they originally were, they no longer
are because we evolved in an environment where trees emit hydrocarbons).
These hydrocarbons are quite different from the ones produced by incomplete
combustion.

Similarly, trees produce a tiny amount of N2O, but this particular
oxide of nitrogen is relatively harmless (it's "laughing gas" and is used
for anesthesia by dentists, and also for fun by DeadHeads).  The "bad"
nitrogen oxides, produced in car engines, have nitrogen in higher oxidation
states; these are much more reactive and acidic (eg NO2, NO, N2O4).  NO2
makes the skies of LA brown.

The most correct answer is "trees emit certain substances that bear a
superficial resemblance to, but are not the same as, those toxic compounds
produced by man that are harmful the environment."

Now, if you wanted to argue "volcanos cause pollution" you'd be on much
firmer ground.


author: Eggs Ackley

subject:
God kicks U.S. ass in a major way. And she ain't jus' shittin'
 around!  Can you say, Fukushima Part Deux?

text:
Natural Selection:  Will America's east coast be rendered unlivable as
millions slowly die of radiation poisoning, say nothing of rising sea
levels.  Hello!  Any global warming doubters left out there?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-26/nrc-monitors-nuclear-plants-in-hurricane-s-projected-path.html


author: Marvin the Martian

subject:
Re: God kicks U.S. ass in a major way. And she ain't jus' shittin'
 around!  Can you say, Fukushima Part Deux?

text:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:10:52 -0700, Baxter wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a simple solubility problem in high school chemistry. Your website
never even addresses the chemistry, and is using  an appeal to complexity
fallacy to avoid it.

You didn't and can't answer a simple chemistry question, can you? It
really ISN'T okay to be that ignorant, and it is damned stupid of you to
pontificate and pretend you're an authority about science when you can't
even work the most SIMPLE problems.

I think in the colloquial, what you're doing is called, "Talking out of
your ass".

There is no rational process where you go from what I explained to what
you said. Just an observation.

Here's the graph:
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/
Atmospheric_Transmission.png/595px-Atmospheric_Transmission.png>

The only IR band that matters to AGW is the 14 micrometer band. Notice
two things about this band: First, that it is already half blocked by
water vapor. Second, that the band blocks 100% of the incoming energy.

The AGW argument is that you can block MORE than 100% of the energy, thus
cause warming. That's a violation of the law of conservation of energy.

The rebuttal from the AGW frauds to this point is that CO2 closer to the
earth is warmed and it stays closer to the earth. The problem with that
is, hot air rises and hot CO2 will NOT stay closer to the earth, but
rather it would rise.

The AGW frauds don't have a rebuttal to that one.

You don't understand this science stuff, I know. You're going to come
back with some silly meta argument about how could so many "scientists"
be lying to you. The answer is that it is not that many "scientists", and
they lie for money.

stopped-121017.html

Fallacies in your article:

1) Glacier melt proves warming.
FALSE: Glaciers have been melting since the end of the last ice age,
20,000 years ago. The rate has not been constant, such as the little ice
age and the Medieval and Roman warm periods (periods that were warmer
than now, btw)

2) High temperatures mean warming.
FALSE: This is a confusion of T_max with dT/dt. One is a maximum, and the
other a rate of change. Note that the argument is that the rate of change
(aka "warming") has STOPPED, not that it isn't warm now.

Besides, the graphs of temperature vs. time are PROVEN to be based on bad
surface temperature data - they were contaminated with UHI effects. When
the satellite data debunked the surface temperature, do you know what
your "scientists" did? Despite all reason, they fudged the satellite
data. That was very, very un-scientific.

3) The data is good because of the Berkley Earth Study
FALSE: The Berkley earth study never even looked at the bad data points
pointed out by Watt. All they did is scrub the bad data the same way
Hansen did, and declare the data good. They mindlessly DISMISSED the bad
data by saying there were not that many urban data collection stations,
but that is a semantic fallacy - the UHI effect does NOT require that
stations be "urban". If the Berkley study was valid, then eliminating the
data centers that were in question wouldn't have cut the observed
temperature change down to 25% of the stated value.

4) The scientist who say there is no warming are cherry picking the data.
FALSE; This is a case of the liars calling the people who are telling the
truth liars. As I said, if you eliminate the bad data stations that do
NOT meet the data collection protocol, you eliminate MOST of the warming.
Further, the claim is that the warming stopped in 1998. To "refute" this
the "scientist" then pick a period that goes way BEFORE 1998, and draw a
trend line through the data, and extrapolating the trend through the
current non-warming period. That's just fraud. What's more, because the
"scientist" WILLFULLY are using bad data that shows a systematic warming
error, the trend they are extrapolating isn't even real! It's an artifact
of their crappy methods!!

I'm happy to explain science to you. I know damned well that you're as
ignorant of science as a creationist, and it will do nothing at all to
sway your idiotic, pig headed beliefs. You NEED to believe in your free
lunch and those who offer you a free lunch told you to say "AGW is real",
so like a good little parrot you're going to say it. But science wise,
you and the creationist you hate so much are both full of crap.