author: Kristian Lahdensuo

subject: Re: a lesser autumnal meandering

text:
"Lisa Chabot" <[email]> wrote:

How can a path be broken? Perhaps an earthquake caused it not to function.

It's snowing here..


author: Lisa Chabot

subject: Re: a lesser autumnal meandering

text:
Kristian Lahdensuo <[email]> wrote:

Yes.

No.

.
.
.


author: acceptable risk

subject: Re: a lesser autumnal meandering

text:
"Kristian Lahdensuo" <[email]> wrote in message
news:bnakf5$gbs$[email]...

... and it was snowing last night here

beelzibub
ps;
    a fuckin' blizard [just a dusting]


subject: and my governor can beat up your governor

text:
Yes, life is hard.  Among other things,
I actually have to go outside soon to pick ripe tomatoes for lunch.

.
.
.


subject: Re: and my governor can beat up your governor

text:
"Lisa Chabot" <[email]> wrote in message
news:bnh8fi$fob$[email]...
... tomatos don't grow in the snow

beelzibub
ps;
    this  is true


author: Kent Paul Dolan

text:
"acceptable risk" <[email]> wrote:

That was sort of her point, Beelz.

xanthian.


author: George William Herbert

text:
acceptable risk <[email]> wrote:

Neither does it snow in the tomatos.

Instead, the acid causes a slushy percipitation of
seed-filled sleet, which then results in the classical
misinterpretation of a rain of blood and lice.

So never let the tomatos out when it's really cold
and there are biblical literallists around.

                                   -george
                                        "End days!  End days!  Squawk!"


author: Nikolaus Maack

text:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 16:42:12 -0500, Kent Paul Dolan wrote
(in message <[email]>):

I hate it when people communicate with a point.  It's so presumptuous of
them.  They assume that communication is about their expressing an idea and
my understanding that idea.  That's so very self centred, and that's not what
communication should be about.

Instead a person should open their mouth and sing.  If I choose to listen,
fine.  And whatever meaning I take from the song is up to me.  My ear will
rearrange the notes anyhow, and the love ballad will almost certainly be
turned into a punk anthem.

If I derive any sort of emotional experience from the song, it should be
considered a successful communication.  I would hope the singer could care
less whether I understood at all, but hopes that their lyrics and tones
reaches me across the void.

Given how alienated and depressed and broken we all are, any one person being
able to make another person feel anything is a great success, and the singer
should be lauded and fed peeled grapes, given the key to the city, and
perhaps crucified.

Crucifixion is the greatest tribute a person can receive.  They did it to
Jesus, John Lennon, and Marilyn Monroe.  Should I die that way, I know my
soul will be in good company.  Assuming I have a soul at all -- I suspect I
may have sold it for trinkets and beads and firewater.

In conclusion, ask not the singer to have a message in the song.  Listen to
the song, and find the message inside of you.

My apologies.  Being pretentious is as close to being an intellectual as our
current conditions allow.

    Nik
http://www.nikart.ca


text:
Nikolaus Maack  <[email]> wrote:

"Language is for casting spells on other people."

But, yes, I agree, and I was wrong to indulge in little housecleaning fits,
and I confess to succumbing to crabbiness and allowing myself to misbehave
with cobwebs and the little surprises the cats leave on the carpet, and to
play little manipulative games--even if they were "shoo!" spells...
of course, then Kent has to interpret them for them to work, so how lousy
are they...

So, well, anyway, we'll just stop short here this side of whining, shall
we.

.
.                                                                    TILT


author: [redacted]

text:
Is the drug dealer in "Tonight Tonight Tonight" also the eponymous subject
of "Mama"? Is there a homoerotic subtext in the description of the "other
woman" in "Joelene"? What does the "Nin" in "Nin Me Sar Ra" mean?

Kate Orman <[email]> http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/
"I have no idea what that meant." - Dot Warner


text:
"Lisa Chabot" <[email]> wrote:

Kent Paul Dolan wrote

Well, I don't think your point needed interpretation in general,
the subject sort of gave it away, but beelz gets off in his own
little pocket of reality once in a while, divorced from all others,
and handing him a clue seemed a kindness.

Sorry if I made you feel you'd been unclear; you were clear enough
to me.

I'd still be picking the stray ripe tomato too, but the slave
labor ripped out the garden a week ago, and now all that's left
to harvest is the flourishing weeds.

The folks in San Bernadino would really appreciate some snow just
now, my next door neighbor's parents are prepared to evacuate their
home, with the fires only four miles away and closing.

xanthian, whose beard is being extracted, one hair at a time, by
a lap cat seeking attention.


text:
<[email]> wrote:

No.

                                          -george
                                               "Not the Mama!  Not the Mama!"


author: Sky King

subject: Re: Just Say Blow

text:
Nomen Nescio <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Nomen, you are a cock biting butt thumper.

Just admit that you like to suck on a big weenie from time to time.  I
admit it, hell I am even flagrant about my taste for cock.

My buddies in soc.men like to mount me.  I have a crush on you.

Sky King


subject: Re: Just Say Blow

text:
On 24 Oct 2003 18:39:07 -0700, [email] (Sky King)
wrote:


author: Cele

subject: Re: Just Say Blow

text:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:50:59 GMT, Sky King <[email]> wrote:

At last! Sky King's true line of work identified! He's a contortionist
in the garages of Thailand!

Cele
"The spiritually mindful person seeks to live fully despite fear;
because to allow fear to direct our lives adds the suffering of
anticipation to the pain of the loss." Rabbi David Wolpe


subject: Re: Just Say Blow

text:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:34:44 GMT, Cele
<[email]> wrote:

And you  fuck the donkeys on stage in Mexico.  You seem to know a lot
about Thailand too.....you closet freak.  I will call you when I want
my ass licked again.
chuckle


author: Timothy Sutter

subject: Religious decree Issued by Bin-Laden in 1998

text:
the following(#) is the text of the religious decree
or "fatwah" issued by Bin-Laden and others.
I have inserted a few comments with no(#) before them.

#Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans
#Published in Al-Quds al-'Arabi on Febuary 23, 1998

#Statement signed by Sheikh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin;
#Ayman al-Zawahiri, leader of the Jihad Group in Egypt;
#Abu- Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the Islamic Group;
#Sheikh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan;
#and Fazlul Rahman, leader of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

intesting to note that one of the signators
is from Pakistan, our new best friend.

#Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds,
#defeats factionalism, and says in His Book "But when the
#forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans
#wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them,
#and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)";

"every stratagem" which happens to include
distancing yourself from the "fatwah" itself.

i.e. for instance, Talmud says, "never tell a
gentile what you really think of him"

and here in this "fatwah" anyone who would
question you on your allegiance deserves
no truthful response.

so, publicly, you can denounce a given action
as "horrible" and even the "fatwah" itself as a
bastrdization of "Islam" but privately you can be
happy. that's just another "stratagem".

so, who is your pal? and who is your "enemy"?

#and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah,
#who said "I have been sent with the sword between my hands
#to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my
#livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts
#humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders."

"bin-abdallah" is Bin-Laden, and here you can see
that his "livelihood is under the shadow of the spear"
he doesn't necessarily micromanage his affairs.
*but* he is wallowing in the "mad power trip"

his pals have kissed his butt so much that he
feels like some kind of special lord of the dance.
this happens all the time with really really
rich kids who don't always get their way.

and he is rich, but he's like the
17th son from a lesser wife.

the son of a really rich Saudi/Yemeni construction
contractor who was favored by the Saudi
Royal House and paid handsomely.

and in this regard, normal people, even in Isalm,
don't have multiple wives, but Rich Rich Rich
tycoons can have whatever they please.

and Bin-laden's "brother's" went to
Harvard and have endowed chairs there.

and it's "not clear" whether Bin-Laden,
himself,  was trained by the CIA or not.

of course, after being affiliated with Intelligence,
he can go "rogue" but so what?

mind you, these are not my opinions.

Bim-blabben is a rich kid from Saudi Arabia.

#The Arabian Peninsula has never--since God made it flat,
#created its desert, and encircled it with seas--been stormed
#by any forces like the crusader armies now spreading in it
#like locusts, consuming its riches and destroying its
#plantations. All this is happening at a time when nations are
#attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food.
#In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support,
#we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and
#we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

see what their trouble is?

Saudi Arabia is being trampled on by US troops.

the major issue in this "fatwah" has nothing
to do with Palestine, but has everything to do
with Saudi Arabia, and Mecca and Medina.

and they call US, "crusader forces"

believe it or not, these people still remember
the Holy Crusades as if they happened yesterday.

it's usually only Americans who
have the attention span of a dust mite.

anyway, apparently, you are being
welcomed back into the ancient conflict.

#No one argues today about three facts that are
#known to everyone; we will list them, in order
#to remind everyone:

#First, for over seven years the United States has been
#occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places,
#the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating
#to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its
#neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into
#a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

see, number one concern is for Arabia.

so, when you pipe up and say things like;

"we must protect our nation"

*that* is exactly what HE is saying.

only he's "evil" cuz ...well, you don't even
know why he's "evil' except that he's getting
the blame for making you unhappy this week.

*but* the hadjj, or pilgrimage to Mecca is
a solemn religious institution among those
who practice Islam.

and if i'm not mistaken, Mecca is on the Arabian peninsula.

so, in *his* mind, a bunch of Satan worshipers
have stormed The Vatican and are preventing
people from experiencing it.

which may be true, but would you even care
if St. Patrick's Cathredral was being
pissed on by an atheist horde?

I, myself, don't have "sacred places"
because God dwells within me,

*but* I can see how someone who
considered geography sacred could
get a bit miffed if their access was inhibitted.

like they tore down your favorite bar
to put up a Wal-Mart or something.

maybe you can relate to that a little better.

a bar that you and your father
both bought the same prostitute in.

old traditions and all.

now do you get the idear?

#If some people have formerly debated the fact
#of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula
#have now acknowledged it.

#The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression
#against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post,
#even though all its rulers are against their territories
#being used to that end, still they are helpless.

he claims the Saudis are against the US occupation of Arabia.

that the "Hell's Angels" just took over
your favorite Wendy's and started dealing
crack out of it and you can't do squat to stop them.

and they are using that Wendy's to broaden out their
occupation of your town and are slowly taking over
the Krogers and the Dairy Queen.

#Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi
#people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the
#huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million...
#despite all this, the Americans are once against trying
#to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not
#content with the protracted blockade imposed after the
#ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

Laden claims that the US has
massacred million of his people.

does he exaggerate?

maybe.

#So now they come to annihilate what is left of this
#people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

he fears anihilation.

so, is *he* terrorized?

maybe he's more than just scared that the
US will put up a Macdonald's in Mecca and
start selling pig-burgers there.

maybe he really is scared that you mean him harm.

#Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are
#religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews'
#petty state and divert attention from its occupation of
#Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

as an aside, Jerusalm is a "sacred" place
for Islam as well as ....well, you know the story.

basically, Abraham had two sons,

Isaac and Ishmael.

Isaac is said to be the progenitor
of Crusaders and *ancient* Israel.
i.e. modern "Israel" is not *just* the Jews.

and Ishmael is said to be that of the modern Arab peoples.

etc.etc.etc.

#The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq,
#the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor
#to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq,
#Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets
#and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee
#Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal
#crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

see, they're really more concerned
with Arabia than anything else.

why?

the hadjj.

a Muslim is "commanded" to, at least, make
an attempt to visit Mecca once in their life.

and in some people's minds,
the US occupation is a bad thing.

#All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans
#are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger,
#and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history
#unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty
#if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed
#by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i,"
#al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam
#in his books, where he said "As for the militant struggle, it
#is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a
#duty as agreed. Nothing is more sacred than belief except
#repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

#On that basis, and in compliance with God's order,
#we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

they are not happy about your presence in Arabia.

#The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians
#and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can
#do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in
#order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque
#from their grip, and in order for their armies to move
#out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to
#threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of
#Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they
#fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no
#more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and
#faith in God."

see, the intention is to free Mecca and Medina.

it's like someone is pissing on the Alamo or something.

or spreading fecal matter on the walls of the Alamo.

spray painting pictures of men having sex
with each other all over the dome of the Capitol.

and all you can do is sit and watch.

at least, that's how *they* seem to see this thing.

#This is in addition to the words of Almighty God
#"And why should ye not fight in the cause of God
#and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated and
#oppressed--women and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord,
#rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors;
#and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

#We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who
#believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply
#with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their
#money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call
#on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch
#the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters
#allying with them, and to displace those who are behind
#them so that they may learn a lesson.

they really don't like the US occupation force in Arabia.

#Almighty God said "O ye who believe, give your response
#to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which
#will give you life. And know that God cometh between a
#man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye
#shall all be gathered."

#Almighty God also says "O ye who believe, what is
#the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth
#in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth!
#Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter?
#But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with
#the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with
#a grievous penalty, and put others in your place;
#but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath
#power over all things."

#Almighty God also says "So lose no heart, nor fall
#into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

and basically, if you want to cleanse
and purify Mecca, you gotta be angry too.

and Mecca is an important place to these people.


author: tim gueguen

subject: Re: Religious decree Issued by Bin-Laden in 1998

text:
"Timothy Sutter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Being a Muslim lay person bin Laden has no more right to issue a fatwah than
a lay Roman Catholic has to issue a Papal Encylclical.  One has to be a
recognised Muslim cleric to issue a fatwah, and bin Laden is nothing of the
sort.

tim gueguen 101867


subject: what some people are saying

text:
this is what some people are saying.

it's not me saying this, but some people are.

George Bush and his administration, don't have high
enough security clearances to know what is actually
going on in "the government" so, you can't really blame
or expect them to know what, in fact, is going on,
and *that* is why they somewhat appear to resemble
a chicken with their head cut off running
around saying "whuh happun?"

but, what is going on is that "somebody"
let those planes hit their targets.

only even "they" miscalculated.

"they" thought that the planes would just bounce off
of the building and they'd get this call to arms and
happy patriotic feeling without losing a great big
building and all that money.

and when the building just crumbled,
"they" got more than they bargained for.

and in case you didn't know, *that's* what I meant when
i said that Bush doesn't have a security clearance
high enough to know what is going on.

he's just some elected official.

he hasn't the right nor the
need to know what "they" know.

and you can believe a thing or two,
"they" know a lot more than you do.

to believe that this thing just came out of the
blue and it ushers in a "new" way of
thinking is what they call "naive"

and that's why you get to hear all the brilliant
commentary from elementary school children.

so, wave your flags, that's nice, I love them,

*but* are you really sure that America even exists anymore?

and I'm serious, that's a serious and actual question.

"does america exist anymore?"

I mean, under this "new" way of
thinking that we are ushering in,

basically, people are being given the "right" to kick
the doors down to any part of your life and place
you not only under suspicion, but under arrest
for being cross eyed and flat footed.

no, I'm not worried about anyone kicking my door
down and placing me under arrest for having bad
breath because I use Mentaldent twice, sometimes
three times, a day.

i just don't care.

i would have said nothing,
but sometimes i just can't help it.

but if anyone believes that this thing
wasn't allowed to happen, they are simple minded.

let me remond you that they watched these
planes reroute themselves on the computer screen.

and it wasn't a matter of 5 minutes.

like the planes were on course for L.A. and
they just slipped off course and did
their bit in 5 minutes.

no, it took a bit longer than that,

and didn't you hear them tell you?

NORAD is notified the moment a plane goes off course.

and there was already heightened awareness
and the suspicion of a terrorist action.

look, there is a "government" that supercedes
the American government and "they" just happen
to make use of instruments that your tax dollars pay for.

so, it ain't all that difficult to understand that a
clerk government doesn't know every little detail
as to what the unseen hand is doing.

and it doesn't matter, they won't
even care if i or anyone says such things.

but those folks you elect and send to warshington are clerks.

just remember, this is only what *some* people are saying.

I just overheard some bum muttering
this to himself on the street corner.

"they" know more about this that "they" let on.

and i don't mean the bums on the street corners.

and Bush doesn't have a security clearance
high enough to hear these things.

*that's* what ned was telling me.


subject: end of the rule of law?

text:
yeah I know, netanyahu gives a dandy speech.
people clap for this sort of thing.

but look, you can't expect America
to take on the world view and attitude of Israel.

like it or not, America isn't exactly a tiny
little piece of acreage surrounded directly by enemies.

but one thing, mr. netanyahu was
not speaking as a head of state.
no, he was speaking as a private citizen.

so, when he suggests that you, the american government,
simply cast aside the notion of "legal justice," he errs.

yes, it gripes my stomach.

i don't like this bim-blabben any more than you do,

and yes, bim-blabben can hide behind the law.

but that is what america is all about.

"a nation of laws"

and you can't sit there and claim that this "war",
or whatever it is, is completely new and unrelated
to any type of aggression america has ever faced
and then compare it to past wars.

and, whether i like it or not,
i'll poison my own thread,

and say that america didn't go to war with hitler
because they felt he was a terrorist
and killing civilians was "wrong"

no no no.

well tim, you went and poisioned
your thread, you mentioned hitler.

that's ok, i have the antidote.

anyway, oh, that was the other thing,

do you already know that bim-blabben
was directly responsible for this crime?

and or but, would telling people how you know
that he is responsible betray how you
know and didn't stop it?

cuz he still claims that he didn't do it.

and as far as i gather, he's still
alive and living off the continent.

but we are told;

"forget the law, forget legalisms, just find
and kill this person who claims to be innocent"

this in the "nation of laws"

so, when "we" cast aside the law and legalisms
for this war thing, where does it stop?

just pick out a block of desert, and when ever
american assests are hit, drop a bomb
on that block of desert, and then we can
feel good about ourselves cuz we got
back at the piece of desert.

just keep looking over your shoulder until your head spins.

but don't bother standing up to your own standards of justice.

that would be too difficult.


subject: wondering about the Shah

text:
I'm allowed to wonder about stuff.

the Shah was our good buddy and then he wasn't anymore.

The Shah was our man in Tehran which was a key
tactical position in that it had a border with the SSR.

besides which Iran had oil.

my wondering starts about here,

what triggered the Shah's ouster?

I mean, the US academic institutions were
suddenly filled with anti-Shah iranians who
began protesting and shouting "death to the Shah"

I'm just wondering, if intelligent people, under the
heading of those "trilateralist" paradigm driven
late seventies cold war type gubments like Nixon
and Carter would have any reason to bring up
ancient history to some early third
millenia administration like Bush?

I mean, supposedly, Reagan was not a "trilateralist"
but there seems to be some question as to whether
Bush the elder was affiliated with the "trilateralists"

but that's not the point.

i was wondering who got rid of the Shah.

who instigated his downfall?

didn't the Shah get a little
hard to handle or something?

and he had outlived his usefulness.

but would any intelligent person walk up
to Bush the younger and "brief" him and say,

"oh, by the way, we dumped the Shah"
"it wasn't really some "grass roots"
effort mounted by iranians."

i was just wondering.


subject: Petitioning the Taliban from Mecca

text:
get Saudi Arabia and any of your "friendlies"
to petition the "Taliban" in the name of Allah
for the extradition of whomsoever is viewed as
"responsible" in light of agreement that
this thing represents a wholly reprehensible
act and could bring infamy upon Islam.

and if they won't, then you can question their intentions.

and if they will, you may get what you want.


subject: christian fortune cookie vol 1

text:
you can't be declared a christian by Imperial Edict.

It simply doesn't work that way.


subject: Clarity at last

text:
it all makes sense to me now,

I've had my vision.

George Carlin will kiss the left butt cheeks
of Colin Powell Dick Cheney and George Bush.

I SEE everything so very clearly now.


text:
tim gueguen wrote:

because you say so right?

what do you know about Bin Laden
or any of the other signators?

nothing that's what.


text:
tim gueguen wrote:

http://i-cias.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?fatwa.htm

Fatwa  Arabic: fatwï¿½

Fatwa is a legal statement in Islam, issued by a
mufti or a religious lawyer, on a specific issue.
Fatwas are asked for by judges or individuals,
and are needed in cases where a issue of fiqh is
undecided or uncertain. Lawsuits can be settled on
the basis of a fatwa.
It is vital that a fatwa is not based upon the
muftis or lawyers own will and ideas, he must
render it in accordance with fixed precedent.
Today, fatwas have limited importance in most Muslim
societies, and are normally used only in cases of marriage,
inheritance and divorce. The importance of a fatwa depends
on its acceptance among most people, and if people don't
care about it, it is in reality powerless.

hardly a "papal encyclical"

why don't you just shut up?

ok?

this thing isn't even a legitimate
declaration of war by anything or anyone.

go back to alt.dumbass where you belong.


subject: Re: what some people are saying

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and maybe this is just a big huge capital C Cynicism
exploding in my head right now, but maybe it isn't.

and here's my plug for Jesus, I told some guy several
years ago that I couldn't be a Cynic because Cynics
believe that all human action is motivated by selfish
desires, and I figured that Jesus did his bit out of
a complete selflessness and therefore, I couldn't
believe that *all* human actions were motivated
by selfish desires.

but anyway, maybe it really is the devils.

maybe the devils are acting just like that
little creature on Star Trek who got the
Federation and the Klingons to fight an
endless and futile battle on the Enterprise.

and Barbars Eden's husband who played the
Blue Djinn was also the head Klingon and
unlike Jeannie who was pink smoke in a bottle
was more like Blue smoke inna bottle.

except Geanie's sister Geanie was also Blue smoke inna bottle.

but anyway, *that's* not the point.

even though she did come from Bagdad and was really pretty.

the *real* point is that "our fight is supposedly
not against flesh and blood, but against all the
devils that make things difficult for us."

so big deal, Geanie can always just
blink her eyes and everything will be OK.

but if the Blue Djinn gets out of
that vacuum cleaner, we'll be in trouble.

oh, maybe he did get out of that vacuum cleaner.

but Popeye also went to Bagdad, but it was called "Badgag"
and he tried to read the menu but it was in Arabic script
and Bluto folded it up and it read
"ham and eggs on toast, 25 cents"

cuz ali baba and the forty thieves
stole everything in sight.

but Jeanie *did* come from Bagdad.

and therefore, I can't be a Cynic.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

but look, why don't you run in and kill
all of those people who applauded this action?

you showed us pictures of people women and children
and adult males who were apparently applauding the
demolishing of the world trade center.

aren't they complicit?

are not they providing aid
and comfort to your enemies?

so, what defines an "extremist"?

"no, we don't have a beef with
all islam and all arabs,
only the exremists"

so, what is an extremist?

someone who applauds a terrorist
action is *not* a terrorist?

remember, this is a "new" brand of "warfare"

do you mean to tell me that applause for
this action ion no way encourages
further actions of this sort?

but how will you prosecute _that_?

and why the obsession with bim-blabben?

is it really just and only to
appease your own constituents?

somebody doesn't like you.

why don't you go in to that
little village and wipe them all out?
they fit the definition of your presumed targets.

they provide aid and comfort
directly to your presumed foe.

and after all, we're tossing
out the rule of law in this "war"

let's get the japanese on board and see what they
say about the futility of "face saving" gestures.

or explain exactly why this isn't just that.

or wipe out any and everyone who applauds this thing.

mind you, not me, i don't applaud this thing.

but i hate to see america go down
a shitty little path to invalidating itself.


author: Glenn Christian Mystic

subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
I suppose you are unaware of the fact that to be a Christian over
there is a CAPITAL OFFENCE ? Meaning DEATH to all Christians ?

And YOU are OK with this ???

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:57:01 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

which is all i was trying to say Mr. Sharon,

"don't turn your back on Israel, but don't
listen to every little thing they say"


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

yeah, I was just wondering if intelligent people
purge the memory or do they pass such things
on thru successive generations?

would there be any record of the actions
of intelligent people 30 years ago?

and would this "record" be hot on the agenda
of things which a recent influx
was immediately briefed on?

like, "oh, hello mr. prez, let me take
you onna a trip thru ancient history"

or, would it be so thoroughly
archived so as to be forgotten?

and only some doddering old man with
the onset of terminal old age disorder
be the only place this "information"
is stored?

shut up Tim, I'll "dodder" you?

no no no no no, not *me*.

somebody else.

which is why i made my comments about
Bush the younger's security clearance.

do they just walk up to an incoming
prez and "brief" him on ancient history?

and is there _anyone_ *to* brief him on such things?

or has all record been so thoroughly purged as to be forgotten?

you wouldn't figure this to be the case.

either one.

and then they gotch yuh chasing your tail.

"what should I do dad?"

don't worry, I'm not knocking the prez, that would be wrong.

I'm curious about the nature of memory.


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
My understanding is that he came to the USA for medical treatment, and
died !

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

On Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:35:55 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: Petitioning the Taliban from Mecca

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

cuz look, you ask Saudi Arabia et al. if you can use
their air space and their landing fields to instutute
your own little acts of war.

this relieves them oif any feelings
of ...well, elet's say "guilt"

for not vociferously denouncing these actions
and even being complicit in these actions in
utter disregard of "Islamic Piety"

and they look at *you* funny for this reason.

why *don't* you seek their
assistance in remediating
this thing?

to erase this blot against Islam.

place the onus on them.

they should be made to exhibit public shame
for this act carried out in the name
of Allah who is "merciful"

but your sword waving removes this need from their minds.


author: John Jensen

subject: Re: christian fortune cookie vol 1

text:
For over a millenium, that was the edict.
Luthor agreed with you, but the pope didn't, and sought to have him killed
for disagreeing with him.
It doesn't work that way, but tell that to the people who try it. They are
usually in charge of a lot more.

"Timothy Sutter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


subject: Bim-blabben's assets widely dispersed

text:
so, should anyone suspect that there is a bank
account "out there" with the name "bim-blabben" onnit,
that holds three quarters of a billion dollars innit?

I suggest that this would be extremely
doubtful so as to be a non-existant
probability.

therefore, the next possibility would be a widely
sparsed out set of accounts that only
bim-blabben has access to.

I don't see this as terribly likely either.

remember, in Blabben's fatwa, he says:

"God who put my livelihood under the shadow of
my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn
on those who disobey my orders."

this indicates to me that blabben's
"livelyhood" is under the
shadow of the spear.

and quite possibly accessible by any
number of people numbering into the 1000s.

may tens of thousands.

and therefore, with a base of assets as sparsed
out as wide as posssible and accessible to as
many as would be willing to obey his fatwa, ....

what do you think would be the
next conclusion for me to draw?

i'll draw it later.

should be obvious.


subject: Inter-American power struggles

text:
yeah, they keep saying that "America is United"

just a few months ago, America was anything
*but* United, as there are very deep power
struggles which go on within the entrenched
bureaucracy and have gone on for years.

so, i was just wondering;

under which heading in the mad
power grab are we now united?

tell everyone who is making the
mad grab and who is getting
the lion's share.

cuz America hasn't exactly been united
in the government bureaucracy
for quite some time.

nobody much cares whether or not people
who work for the quicki mart are friendly
towards those who work for the donut shoppe.

do they?


text:
"Timothy Sutter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
than
the
No, because thats what an expert on Islam I heard on the radio said.  And
frankly its not hard to figure out that someone who is not a cleric cannot
issue a religious decree, which is what a fatwah is.

I certainly know that bin Laden is NOT a Muslim cleric.  He's a disowned son
of a rich Saudi family, which is where he got his money from.

tim gueguen 101867


text:
"Timothy Sutter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
than
the
Both are religious decrees that cannot be made by just anybody, hence the
comparison.

Funny isn't it that the text you quoted pretty much agrees with my comments.
bin Laden is neither a mufti nor a religious lawyer.  He's a fanatic who has
zip right to issue a fatwa.

Which was my point in the first place.  Have problems with reading
comprehension do you?

Maybe if you could see more than a few inches beyond your obviously inflated
ego you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself.

tim gueguen 101867


subject: Re: what some people are saying

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

no, i'm not a Cycic, and therefore, ned knows more than you do.

and ned'll be the first to tell you, just because
someone is elected president doesn't mean that
he runs every facet of government.

no, it wasn't an "intelligence failure"

_someone_ got exactly what they wanted,
or maybe _just_ a little bit more
than they wanted.

and if that's too tough a pill for anyone to swallow,
wash it down with a ground glass sandwich.

they turned their backs on the
devil and laughed at it and it flew away.

well, sometimes you actually do gotta
do more than just 'resist' the devil.

anyway, just remember, some of these fellas will
sell you crack and then arrest you for buying it from them.

suddenly, overnight, some very ruthless
people have become Haloed saints.

well, they ain't wearin' haloes dude.

and please, try not to emulate
these state propagandists
aka big tough news readers;

and sit there on the edge of your
couches and play like you can say
"we" when you watch a football game.

it's like some of these jokers are all
hyped to watch the latest miniseries
where "we" drop bombs on people
in a clean clear little affair.

can't possibly be anything more than propaganda
because if there was any real information about
this "war" it wouldn't end up in the hands
of these television people who speak
directly to "our" presumed "enemy"

either that, or we really are being
governed by the biggest batch of
incompetents that ever graced the planet.

and i can't believe that.

i'd really love to say things clearly.

but i can only sketch blurry photographs.

blech.


author: Libertarius

subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" wrote:

===>Some are indeed a few hundred years behind the rest of the world.

However, though bombs can accomplish a lot of things, they cannot
inculcate enlightenment.

        Libertarius (Ho Hairetikos)
======================


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

besides being a gross non-sequitur,
I suppose i'll waste two minutes and
find out if this is what you mean;

are you asking me if I am aware that
Messianic Y'hudim are not allowed
to repatriate to Israel?

that Messianic Y'Hudim are considered "meshumed jews"
or "traitors" and therefore may not return to Israel
and be granted citizenship.

is *that* what you are asking me?

yes, Messianic Jews are still "jews"
but they are "traitors" and therefore
not allowed to repatriate to Israel.

yes, I am aware of this.

am i ok with Messianic jews being declared
"meshumed" and therefore denied
the right to repatriate?

no, I think it's a terrible thing.

but I grant the jews the right to be
just a little fucked in the head
in certain respects.

after all, they have folks like
you who think YHWH is the devil
in their numbers.

but I don't think America should follow suit
in every detail of the way the jews
deal with *their* reality.

but the prophet Muhammed seemed to have some
"tolerance" for so-called "people of the book"
 meaning jews and christians.

I think maybe what you mean is that christians
_proselytizing_ muslims is a capital offence.

if you look in the Qur'an you may see that
isolated christian communities are "tolerable"

feel free to show me that this is not the case.

look here;

http://www.fountainlink.com/2000/july-september/3.html

"historically" there has been no such animosity.

not from *their* side.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and look, some people write letters to dead people.

so don't come running me down saying;

"oh ho ho, Tim thinks people read his stupid posts"

i'll go back to screaming at the walls soon.


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

but look, the day Robert Kennedy was shot,
there was a picture of sharks in the water
in a cloud of blood in Life magazine.

i just don't want to see the prez be the
one who asks people back in to the water
and jaws strikes again.

that guy went looney.

but the beaches were closed.
and people were lining up to be a TV dinner.

"go back in the water"

"it's safe"

is it safe?


author: Jeremy Reaban

subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
"CatNip" <[email]> wrote in message
news:0Hst7.640$[email]...
around a
what these
<snip>

He also tolerated non-muslims.  I have a cousin (by marriage) who is
Iranian - he worked for the Shah in the government and was a
Zoroastrian, so he really had to flee.

Nowdays, while the Iranian government doesn't persecute them much, I
don't believe non-muslims are allowed to work in the government...


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
Yup, read your history - the U.S. dumped him. It wasn't a
grass roots effort. The C.I.A. thought they could control
his successor, but couldn't. If I remember correctly, we
had trained his secret police, and the people had enough.


subject: Re: Petitioning the Taliban from Mecca

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

cuz you really have a lot of leveraging power in that
you see fit to "stand firm in your resolve" and not
let your sentiment and anger and emotions
get the best of you.

here's one thing, these "militant extremists"
*do* claim they act ion the name of Allah,
who is merciful.

so, you shouldn't allow the Islamic world to distance
itself from these people entirely and stand
safely in the corner.

and any pressure you can bring to bear on these folk
with the help of the more "moderate" voices in the
Islamic world would be to your benefit.

and if Saudi Arabi needs some cajoling in taking
such a "bold" step in handing down and
outright condemnation of this act,

then you go to the Indonesians and see if they will
boycott Mecca and place a moratorium on the hajj
until this thing is cleared up.

because, mecca is to islamic pilgrims what all
the disney lands and washington d.c. and
hollywood and vine, and graumann'a chinese theater
 and las vegas are to american tourists.

so, you actually do have economic interests to insult.

provided you can use your smarts
for more than just a hat rack.

I tried to tell you before that declaring war
on "terrorism" in this thing will inevitably
bring you into conflict with cultural
ideations in some manner.

and believe me, we'd all hate to see the US governemnt
try to treat this thing the way they treated
the David Koresh people. they got away with that
thing because it was insular and most
people actually hate "bible babblers"
not that Koresh even remotely compares to Bim-blabben.

"but this ain't just defenseless women
and children down by the washidah river,
there's cheyenne brave and sioux"

don't be a bunch of idiots.


subject: Re: christian fortune cookie vol 1

text:
John Jensen wrote:

that's actually part of the problem.

you can declare the state's realm to be "Christian"
by an Imperial Edict, and the citizenry of such
a realm are "born into" a _theology_ which may
be loosely associated with Christ.

and by education and rites of passage,
the citizenry carries the moniker "Christian"

*but* -we- feel that God calls and places a person
into God's Church and/or Congregation by directly
presenting God's own self to that person
in the form of The Holy Spirit.

this thru the initiation of Faith, and that Faith
being the Faith *of* Jesus Christ who lives forever with God,
and who came forth from God and who returned back to God,
and sends this Paracletos to comfort and support the
"christian" thru the walk with God which renews
that mind in the likeness of Christ.

so, while a state sponsored Christian may, indeed,
become a christian, no one is born a christian,
but becomes a christian thru the
Indwelling of God's own Spirit.

and so also, you may find an Imperially
declared 'Christian" may not be
a "christian" at all.

and therefore, oftentimes, the reputation
of the Way of Faith is sullied by Christians
who are not christians.

thank you for your contribution.


text:
tim gueguen wrote:

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

this is a staement issued by the
International Policy Institute for Counter Terrorism

and they call this thing a fatwa.

I showed you the definition of fatwa.

there is no need that our "cleric" be "officially recognized"
by you or me or the Pope to be a cleric and one who gives
religious advice and one who is able to issue
this religious statements at will.

see the little hat he wears?

that little hat makes him a cleric.

Saddam Hussein probably has such
a hat in his wardrobe as well.
and Muamar Quaddaffi also has
such a little hat.

if you can tell me the name of the
little hat, you get a stick of bubble gum.

these people wear more than one little hat.

you don't even have a competent understanding
of western religious platforms.

he issued a fatwa.

but this fatwa is not an official
declaration of war by a nation state.

suffice it to say;

you are wrong, and I am right.

Bin-Laden issued a fatwa.


text:
tim gueguen wrote:

look here;

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

this is issued by the International Policy
Institute for Counter Terrorism

and they call this thing a fatwa.

no, this fatwa is more like a "get" or a thing
a Jew hands his wife when he wants to get a divorce.

fatwas are issued commonly.

and, Bin-Laden is an educated
and very rich little boy,

he can by status as a legal mufti.

he is called a "sheikhs" and sheikhs
are religious and civil leaders.

look at the other signators;

#Statement signed by Sheikh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin;
#Ayman al-Zawahiri, leader of the Jihad Group in Egypt;
#Abu- Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the Islamic Group;
#Sheikh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan;
#and Fazlul Rahman, leader of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

given that most of the "peasant"
population in these places
are not literate,

nearly any literate person can
easily qualify as a "mufti"

and a "cleric" in the American Methodist Episcopal church
is within his rights to make a broad statement to all
christians if he feels like it.

nobody has to listen to it and it has no _binding_
authority on anyone, but you can still give
it any fancy name you like.

and this guy, Bin-Laden and the et als.
all have nice religious sounding titles.

they are "sunni" muslims, supposedly, but
they have evidently created their own little "sect"

and in so doing, have written themselves the right
to issue any sort of religious or civil document
they may wish, and that is what they have done.

no, it doesn't, you have not supported your contention
that Bin-Laden has no "right" to issue a fatwa,

you simply contend that Bin-Laden is not a "recognized"
cleric in the muslim church or whatever and therefore
you contend that he has no right to issue such statements.

well, the definition claims that a fatwa itself has no
real bearing unless you give it credence and except
if you decide to abide by it.

you also compare a fatwa with a papal encyclical.

clearly a papal encyclical is "bindiing" on all Catholics.

and a Catholic has not the ability to pick and
choose whether he will follow its decrees or not.

this thing is more of an imprimatur.

for all you know he is the pope of his little sect of sunnite muslims.

if people come to him for religious advice, he is a mufti.

he doesn't have to be a Harvard Graduate to give
religious advice or to issue religious decrees.

and unless you show that he must be educated in a
university to issue such decrees, i'll consider
that you have failed to substantiate your
claim that he cannot do so.

he is a sheikh, and who knows what other titles he may have.

no, none at all, maybe you have such troubles.

a fatwah is not a legitamate declaration of war,

so this is *not* _your_ point in the first place.

*your* point was that Bin-laden was unable to issue
such a decree which is wrong because he and the others
have clearly issued such a decree.

they have issued a fatwa and it is all legal like.

look here;

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

this is issued by the International Policy
Institute for Counter Terrorism

and they call this thing a fatwa.

yet I am right and you are wrong.

so whether i agree with your obviously erroneous
assertions or not will not change the facts.

if it hurts you to be shown your error, that's not my problem.


text:
tim gueguen wrote:

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=sheikh

sheik also sheikh (shk, shk) n.

1.Islam.
a.A religious official.
b.A leader of an Arab family or village.
c.Used as a form of address for such an official or leader.

Sheik \Sheik\, n. [Ar. sheikh, shaykh, a venerable old man, a chief,
fr. sh[=a]kha to grow or be old.] The head of an Arab family, or
of a clan or a tribe; also, the chief magistrate of an Arab village. The
name is also applied to Mohammedan ecclesiastics of a high grade.
[Written also scheik, shaik, sheikh.]

when it comes down to it, "tim"

a sheikh is more than a mufti.

i.e. he has a greater religious authority that just any old mufti.

ok, chum?

not only can Bin-Laden issue fatwas, but he has.

QED


subject: showing the instruments

text:
if you're gunna play goofy games
with these people anyway,

you may as well come right out and
tell them that you plan to drop the bomb.

and seriously discuss the fact that sand doesn't
engender a terrible fallout hazard and no one
will even realize that there's no more Afganistan.

see, cuz that will resemble when you grab a guy,
and show him a pair of pliers and tell him that
you plan to rip his teeth out if he
doesn't talk or cooperate.

and then 999,999 out of 1,000,000 times,
the guy spills his guts.

it's called "showing the instruments."

i mean, you could always blame
it on "national hysteria" or something.

then again, maybe there's the outside chance
that afgannistan is filled with a million
one in a million crazies, but i doubt it.

maybe you ought to show them the instruments and find out.


author: Elmer Bataitis

subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Libertarius wrote:

Unless they are able to eliminate the unenlightened ;-)

***************************************************************
Elmer Bataitis              ï¿½Hot dog! Smooch city here I come!ï¿½
Planetech Services                                       -Hobbes
716-442-2884
***************************************************************


subject: nothing has been lost

text:
I remember one time, me and this other person
on uselessnet said the same thing, and that was
that we had heard this being stated
with a somewhat straight face;

"I don't believe in God, and anyway,,,,,he's mean."

well, one thing is in our points of view.

we, the tiny little human beings, see things
centered around a very small point
of view, namely ourselves.

whereas God has a much much braoder point of view.

and here is something to consider carefully,

God doesn't see Death in the same way that we do.

we see death as ,,,you know,
"my best friend is dead and i'll
never see that person ever again."

well, God has manipulative power over
the material universe and can raise
a stone up and give it life.

God can watch you die, and lift you
back up and speak to you again.

so, you see God as mean
because you see death as final.

but God does have a purpose, and driving off
the impurities in the human "spirit" "soul"
whatever makes you happy,
is one of those purposes.

and sometimes, whether you can see that purpose
in such a dreadful tragedy as the death
of a dear departed, and you only feel the pain,

that purpose still holds sway,
and is being tended to in a
very direct manner.

and even if that pain burns a place
in your heart that you see as irreparable,

the cleansing effect is a thing
that even God has gone thru.

the universe was brought in to
existance in a harsh and
somewhat painful act.

in bringing children to birth,
much pain is likewise de rigeur,

some day you will be able
to look back and say,

"it's really great to be alive"

"now pass the marshmallows"

nothing has been lost.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Tim,

Get your head out of your ass and re-read the question, I made no
mention of the Jews. I was talking about the CHRISTIANS in Bin Labon
Land.

On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:55:32 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
I am one of those Christian Jews denied entry into my country, BUT

THAT

wasn't my question, now was it ?

 I am talking about Afghanstan's killing of people BECAUSE they are
CHRISTIANS, again, are you fine with this ???

On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:55:32 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


author: Richard Alexander

subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
[email] (Glenn (Christian Mystic)) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

As much as possible, the US (and other civilized nations) attempt to
go through diplomatic processes when dealing with legal infractions in
other nations. When the terrorists who blew up Pan Am Flight 103 over
Scotland were traced to Lybia, the US used diplomatic channels to get
the suspects to trial. When US citizens are abroad, the US deals with
the events differently than when the citizens are on their own soil.
As much as possible, the US attempts to respect the procedures of
recognized governments that are involved. War is reserved for grave,
direct threats to national interests.

Although other nations may do evil things to US citizens, the US would
prefer to use lesser means than war to respond. They might lodge a
protest, embargo, sanction or cut diplomatic ties. They might freeze
assets or encourage other nations to cut trade. They may encourage
neighbors who are hostile to the nation being protested.

If the trail of US citizens by the Taliban had occurred a year ago, it
would have provoked the normal diplomatic responses. Now, it just adds
fuel to the fire against the Taliban. The US is fully justified in
using a military force against the Taliban, because the Taliban is
harboring the prime suspect in an attack of mass destruction against
the national interests of the United States. The only question now is,
What is the optimal method for the US to use to reach and permanently
stop Osama bin Laden?


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and of course, what's funny is that
Sirhan Sirhan was this "palestinian dupe"

not much of a shark at all.


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

i suppose i may as well make a few
statements here for my own personal benefit.

uh, first of all, the atheist is not simply
one who is lacking belief in God or Gods
but these infidel types have a virulent
hatred towards christianity in particular.

and that virulent hatred would like
christianity blotted off the
face of the earth.

it in no way is one of these "tolerance" issues.

these people hate christians and christianity period.

alright, some atheists have seen fit to pick up
this defunct gnosticism that was the
invention of who know what.

but as far as judaism goes, supposedly, the early
"Gnostics" were jews but Gnostics practically
have a self loathing for judaism that is simply a reproach.

and by capital G Gnostic, i mean the
Gnostics jews that went after christianity
so as to anihilate it.

by the way, the idea of an atheist jew
i find to be a contradiction in terms.

so, maybe y'all should se a doctuh er sumthin'.

atheist jew,,,,hmmm, it's just a total contradiction.

but look, I ain't conflicted so please,
stay out of my clam chowduh, ok?

maybe y'all should sort yer own troubles with
the Almighty out foist, before you come
snoopin' in other people's bizniss.

and don't even try passin' that monkey shit
my way cuz i ain't gunna eat that crap
no matter how pretty you dress it up.

and that goes for any of you whiteys
who buy in to that "there is no God" bit as well.

forget it.

you people are stoooopit.

but make no mistake about it, these infidel have
wormed there way in to regular old christianity
right from the start.

Paul even says he could see tham way back when.


subject: Re: wondering about the Shah

text:
[email] wrote:

Really?

I was involved for three years with a woman who had spent 10 years in Iran,
married to a high-ranking official in the Shah's ministry of technology. It
was common knowledge in here social group that the CIA had trained the
Shah's Savak and built his torture chamber.

The CIA had a friend in the Shah, at taxpayer expense. Khomeini got smeared
by the US press, because the CIA had no hold on him. Khomeini was a
religious fanatic, but he was also and honest man, with no patience for
deception or corruption. The first thing he did, when he came to power, was
to investigate every member of his government. When any indication of
wrong-doing was found, the suspect was grilled to explain it. If he could
not do so to the courts satisfaction, he was shot. If he succeeded, he was
sent home, and asked to return to work in the morning.

Yes, the people had had enough. We should have had enough too. My friend
told of "Yankee go home" riots staged by the CIA. Knowing full well they
were all hired actors, putting on a show for the American press, she could
walk through the demonstrators with no fear of harm. The Shah's Savak were
thought police. Any statement construed as anti-Shah was grounds for
torture. My friend's social group was no immune from the Savak, but with
rank came whispers telling them when the Savak was present, so watch what
you say.

The CIA is a big part of the kind of foreign policy that has made the US
hated in many countries in the world. It has not been lost on the rest of
the world that we stabbed an ally in the back in Viet Nam, and backed a
ruthless dictator, who had been killing family members of officers in North
Viet Nam, sent there to remove the Red Chinese. Can we really be trusted to
back the forces of freedom, when allies fighting for freedom get betrayed?

Of course, we don't hear about that side of the story from the US press. We
have the CIA telling them what they can and cannot print. When Mr.
Hearsttried to take a stand, they kidnapped his daughter, so you don't see
much resistance anymore.

Remember that it was the CIA that tried John Kennedy to go to war against
Ho Chi Min, but Robert got wise and told him not to. I would be seriously
surprised if the CIA was not responsible for killing both of them.


subject: Re: Petitioning the Taliban from Mecca

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

but before you suspect that I'm getting all warm to you,

just remember, there's no enormous love
lost for what you did to those Koresh people.

you went in there to serve a simple gun warrant
which claimed koresh had bought firing pins
to convert his guns to automatic weapons.

this was shown to be untru in the first instance
when you stormed an american's house and shot bullets
into that man's house and when he returned fire, it was
obviously not automatic weapon's fire, but the gentle
"tat tat tat" of single trigger pulls per bullet.

not the da da da da da of an automatic weapon.

just beolive me, some people will always view
this as an act of state sponsored terrorism
against american citizens by the US gubberment.

and just remember, you people LAUGHED and made
big jokes about those little babies who
burned in their homes.

"the whacko from waco"
and "the bible babblers"
"burn fundy burn"

just a little shack in waco, big deal.

no one will build a memorial or even care, ha ha ha.

just don't start wearing instant Haloes my good people.

y'all ain't without blood on yer hands.

why don't you just wail loud music all night at the taliban?

it worked once, maybe it'll work again.


subject: Re: christian fortune cookie vol 1

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and this is the sort of problem that the
"founding fathers" of America sought to avoid.

they didn't find religion abhorrent or Christianity
to be a foul and contemptible anathema,

but the problem outlined here
instituted severe consequences.

and by disallowing state sponsorship,
the freedom of religion was to be ensured.

etc.etc.etc.etc.

and there is much etceterae,
but basically, that's where
we find ourselves.


text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and this speaks directly to the difference
in type of warfare you are dealing with here.

this "fatwa" thing is just a very vague statement
issued by some guy who wears a funny hat.

it isn't at all like england declaring war on germany.
or america splitting a nation and having
both sides declare war on each other.

this is just a vague statement that
suggests that muslims enter into this Jihad.

which is exactly why Bin-laden himself can safely
distance himself from the perpetrators of
any acts of war carried out because of it.

*and* why any nation state that may actually support
 Bin-Laden can also feel supportive of the effort
 without ever having to come right out
and say, "we are at war with the US.

it's more subtle than the normal
Marquis of Queensbury rules for warfare.

there's no "geneva convention" here.

it amounts to "total war" for anyone
who wishes to be a part of it.

this decree simply suggests that muslims
go to war to free mecca from the infidel.

so, having said that, no one has to stand
in the war room and direct actual efforts.

and so, Bin-Laden can say he had nothing
to do with it, and still not be telling a fib.
or bearing false witness.

*and* he et al claim that this act against
Mecca is an act of war against God himself.

but no one in the Saudi Royal house needs
to bloody his hands with this thing.

and yet, they need never tell you whether
they support this thing or not.

but just like the Afgans say;

the Saudis invited the US into their country as guests.

they can't just ask you to leave.

and likewise, the Afgans claim
they can't ask Bin-blabben to leave.

and they don't have to tell you to your face;

"i hate you and i wish you were dead"

and maybe they don't wish you were dead.

maybe they just wish you'd get out of their house.

and leave the AWACs behind so their children
can fly high priced jets around for fun.

God knows you won't give them any F-16s.

and for good reasons i suppose.

but it's all very vague.


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
Now you are talking my language, at least you appear to be...

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:49:57 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Elmer Bataitis wrote:

===>Do you really think that's possible?
(Hint: read some of the posts on these newsgroups). -- L.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Very good ! And fear is sometimes a good teacher

On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:43:48 -0500, Elmer Bataitis
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: nothing has been lost

text:
this is a particular insight of ... "christianity"

and I use quotes because the meaning
of that word has become blurred
over the millenia.

anyway;

we don't possess life in ourselves, our life is on loan.

no one can tell you what makes a cell alive.

they can describe things about cells that are
indicative of life, one being the ability to replicate,
but no one knows exactly what makes a thing "alive"
or has a suitably definitive idea of that
which defines a thing as "alive"

for all practical purposes, nothing has changed
in the chemical makeup of the cells of a
living tissue when it ceases to be "alive"
in that instance, the chemical makeup is the same.

but in that instance that life ceases,
it immediately begins to decay.

why is this relevant?

because God has Life,

God possesses Life in God.

and we suggest, that, God _alone_ has Life.

and our lives are nothing more than a breath that
is on loan for a brief period, and then it disappears,
and returns to the One who has Life.

where salvation thru Christ
makes itself known is this,

Thru Christ, we are offered
the chance to possess Life
in ourselves.

to be "like God"

to see God as God is, and thereby
come in to a Unity with God and
become Gifted with an eternal
everlasting Presence.

and in that way, the "christian" rises above
the bonds of material cessation of life, and
enters into the Holy Presence of God
to remain in Life.

there's a big difference.

aside from Christ, the life you have,
on loan, reverts to the owner of that life.

In Christ, you can be Granted Life of your own.

basically.

Timothy Sutter wrote:


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

in that case "over there" is ill defined as in the post
you wrote it under i spoke of netanyahu and Israel,
and the american legal system.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

i don't believe you.

gnostics aren't christian.

gnostics are opposed to all that Christ stood for.

Gnostics are not even very good jews.

your question was improperly formulated.

afganistan has no formal government at this time.

as I showed you, the Quo'ran does not view christians
either as infidel or enemies, neither jews,

and your assertion that anyone in afganistan
is killing christians for being
christians is unfounded.

who is this "infidel" that these people don't like?

infidels are faithless and christians are not faithless.

there are some people in pakistan
on trial for proselityzing muslims.

this because some people's brand
of "christianity" is repugnant to muslims.

possibly some of those infidels wearing collars.


author: Pastor Dave

subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On 2 Oct 2001 12:07:22 -0700, [email] (Richard
Alexander) wrote:

Agreed, except that when a nation that doesn't (to my
knowledge) have an agreement to honor extradition
requests of another country asks for some evidence that
the alleged perpetrator actually committed the crime,
they are doing a favor, since they can, like other
countries that have no agreement for extradition with
the U.S., tell us to get lost.  Remember, Mexico used
to do exactly that and we didn't invade them using
military force.

It seems to me, that if we have evidence, then it
should be provided and if they still refuse, THEN
consider other channels.  But I have not personally
seen any real evidence that this man even committed the
acts he's accused of.  It seems that hysteria and anger
is what people are using as logic.

___

Pastor Dave

"In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to
find predictable progressions.  In general, these
have not been found - yet the optimism has die hard
and some pure fantasy has crept into the textbooks."
- Raup, David M., Evolution and the Fossil Record,
Science vol 213 (July 17, 1981) p. 289


subject: Re: christian fortune cookie vol 1

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and, it's not wrong or peculiar or zany or odd
or whacky that God should be central to
the lives of any people,

but when the "state" seeks to instill this
in people by force, the tendency is for people
to feel bullied or to be nothing more than automatons.

and it has been noted that this is the case
in several of the world's "Islamic" countries

namely Saudi Arabia and the taliban and maybe Iran and etc..

Iraq is noted for being a "secular" state.

but some have pondered aloud;

"the taliban wishes to make the entire life
of the people geared around religion with
the exclusion of all else"

well, this in itself is not a strange idea.

but, *we* meaning, so-called "Christians" have already
seen for ourselves the problems that state sponsorship
can have on a religion and on the people.

and no, i don't consider myself a "so-called christian"
but i thought i'd cast myself in that culture
because that is my heritage.

and so, state sponsorship has problems all its own.

as, now,...     "what defines a True Scotman?"

well, a True Scotsman would never ...

yes?


text:
look at this bit, it's sort of funny;

http://www.adl.org/presrele/terrorismintl_93/bin_laden_93.asp

November 1996 Bin Laden issues an ultimatum
to the U.S. and Western countries with troops
stationed in Arab countries and declares a holy
war against the "enemy." "Had we wanted to
carry out small operations after our threat
statement, we would have been able toï¿½ We
thought that the two bombings in Riyadh and
Dhahran would be enough (sic.) a signal to
the wise U.S. decision-makers to avoid the
real confrontation with the Islamic nation, but
it seems they did not understand it." (The
Washington Times, 11/28/96)

if you read it in a certain way, it sounds like
Bim-blabben is the son who gets to carry out the
dirty work of ousting unwanted party guests from
the home after the party is over and it seems as
if the guests just want to freeload for another twelve weeks.

he makes a threat, "please leave or i keeel you"

then carries out a small act of aggressive force,

or vicey versy.

small aggressive force, then a threat, than another threat.

and then he says,

"apparently they didn't get the message that we want them to leave"

and then it just escalates.

i'm not condoning this stuff, but
it's not like they're just crazy people.

but once the bombs start dropping,
who cares what started it all?

too late now.


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Are you sure?
The increase in radiation exposure since the 40's has been traced as a cause
of the dramatic upswing in cancer cases since the 40's.

The problem with torture, ore even threats thereof, is that the victim tends
to say what the perpetrators want to hear.

That has already been used as an excuse for taking away our Constitutional
Rights. The whole war on drugs is a cover for that.

There is an inside chance that it is filled with innocent and starving
people who never have a chance to hear what you are asking and never see
what you're waving at them.

So, who taught you how to negotiate? The Mighty Morphin Power Rangers?

Its attitudes like this that ive me cause to be embarrassed over being an
American.

- John Jensen
http://www.the-gnosis-site.com/


subject: Re: nothing has been lost

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and you may say to me;

"well what about these other people,
don't they just live forever anyway?"

well, according to Sinai, The Law doesn't
offer nor promise a "life after death"

The Law suggests that if you can keep
the compact of Sinai from birth, you can live.

but no one ever succeeds in keeping
this compact from birth, and so, all die.

so, SINAI doesn't even offer "eternal life"

aside from perfection under its dictates.

I'm not addressing "judaism" here, because
the rabbis may have borrowed things from
elsewhere aside from THE Law to
make people happy.

but, The Law does not see man as in possession
of some eternal and immortal "soul"
that transcends the grave.

and this would be true of any people who
view a life of pious good works as that
which earns you special favors from God.

and if carefully considered, the eastern view
of being trapped in cycles of life until you
live a pious life and break free from
the material realm is unachievable.

meaning, go look, nobody ever makes it free
from the material "prison" because it is
such a total bond on the human make-up.

there are pictures and portraits as to how it *might*
be possible to break free from the material realm
and it's grasping hold in the grave, but when it
comes down to it, full admission is made
that no one can ever get out.

and so, no entry into the Heavenly plane
is ever achieved, but only spoken
of in soft whispers.

which is why we proclaim Christ.

Christ came from God and is God.

Christ is at the door.

ask.

Christ *may* just get out of bed and open to you.

Christ is not some Icon of cultural hegemony.

Christ is the Way to God.

there is Salvation on none other.

you can bank on it.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Nice duck, why are you so terrified of the question, that you must
continually AVOID answering it ?

COWARD (Rev.21:8)

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 01:00:42 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:57:07 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

Not that it matters.

Obviously you don't know what a Christian is.

By this we know Timmy is the Christ, for Christ knows best what Christ
stood for.

"Jew" and "Judaism" aren't the same thing, DNA and religion aren't
always in agreement.

The Taliban.

We aren't talking about the Qu'ran, we are talking about the Taliban
murdering people because they are Christians.

I see, you ARE AN UNINFORMED IDIOT !!!

But unlike under the Tabilan these people have not been HUNG.

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com


author: Moggin Goldberg

subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
[newsgroups trimmed, follow-ups set]

Glenn:

Timmy:

     Same here.  It's pretty hard to believe that Israel banned
Glenn merely from _entering_ because of his religion.  I'd
like him to explain how that could be.  For now I'm guessing he
confused being denied entry with being refused automatic
citizenship -- two very different things.  Maybe Glenn will say
more.

     Not so.  Historically _many_ gnostics have been Christians.
That was especially true in the early days.  For example, a
gnostic named Marcion assembled the first New Testament.  Could
even be Christianity began as gnosticism.  Admittedly,
gnosticism hasn't played a very big role since the Cathars were
murdered by the Church back in the 13th century.

-- Moggin


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
[newsgroups trimmed, follow-ups set]

Glenn:

Timmy:

     Same here.  It's pretty hard to believe that Israel banned
Glenn merely from _entering_ because of his religion.  I'd
like him to explain how that could be.  For now I'm guessing he
confused being denied entry with being refused automatic
citizenship -- two very different things.  Maybe Glenn will say
more.

     Not so.  Historically _many_ gnostics have been Christians.
That was especially true in the early days.  For example, a
gnostic named Marcion assembled the first New Testament.  Could
even be Christianity began as gnosticism.  Admittedly,
gnosticism hasn't played a very big role since the Cathars were
murdered by the Church back in the 13th century.

-- Moggi


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Pastor Dave <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...

[snip]

The US does cannot have an extradition treaty with the Taliban,
because the US does not even recognize the Taliban as a legitimate
government. For that matter, only 3 nations ever recognized the
Taliban government (United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan),
and, currently, only Pakistan continues holding diplomatic ties with
the Taliban. UAE and SA cut their diplomatic ties in the weeks
following the September 11 attacks, and Pakistan has no diplomats in
Afghanistan (Pakistan hosts the only Taliban ambassidor).

As far as the US (and most of the world) is concerned, the Taliban is
a group of thugs that has seized control of an area of the
world--nothing more. As such, it is doing the Taliban a favor in not
immediately attacking them to get Osama bin Laden.

If Mexico had refused to turn over the prime suspect in an attack on
the US of comparible size and gravity to the September 11 attacks, the
US would not have taken "no" for an answer. Exactly what the US would
have done would depend on the situation. One possibility is for the US
to send a few teams into Mexico and abduct the suspect. Even that
might have been unnecessary, if, as is the case with the Taliban, the
majority of the world condemned the attack and sanctioned the nation.

If the US were to provide the information requested, it would
compromise the source of that information. The likely result would be
that the Taliban and Osama would simply make the necessary changes to
their procedures to ensure that the US could not get that information
in future events. It is obvious that the Taliban has no intention of
turning over Osama under any circumstances; their request for the
information is not sincere, and would harm the US. The fact that
several other nations (all of NATO, and the Russian government) have
observed the evidence and called it conclusive, is sufficient evidence
to the world that the US has sufficient, compelling evidence. The US
had to supply compelling evidence that it was attacks by Osama before
NATO would invoke Article 5, which now has been invoked, pending only
the request of the US for specific assistence.

It probably will be several decades before all the evidence against
Osama bin Laden is ever made public. I don't need the evidence to say
that the US should stop Osama, using military invasion, if necessary.
Osama is known to be dangerous to the US interests, a modern pirate
who must be hunted down, no matter where he hides. If Osama were in
any nation on Earth, refusal to turn him over to the US would be
inexcusable. No nation in its right mind would protect him at this
time, as evidenced by the severing of diplomatic ties with the
Taliban.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Somebody hasn't been keeping up to date on the news....

On Wed, 03 Oct 2001 01:34:35 GMT, Pastor Dave
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: christian fortune cookie vol 1

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and the trouble is that *we* apparently have
taken the WRONG lesson home with us.

*we* have taken home the lesson that religion
itself was to blame for the troubles
brought about by state spnsorship.

*we* have cast aside that thing which
is central to *our* make-up, namely God,
and *instituted* the same evils that
state sponsorship had going under
the guise of theological initiation.

The Aegis of Man as opposed to the Aegis of God

and Man has proved himself as a
right bloody bastard right from the start.

so you'll excuse me if I happen to reject *your* Aegis
in no matter what disguise is presents itself this time.

as for me and My House, I'll walk with Christ.


text:
The Saudis invited US troops in, after saddam hussein
took Kuwait, because they felt threatened.

in case you forgot.

in part, because the Saudis keep
getting accused of being overly western,

and the A-rabs are always talking about having
a united A-rab nation and Quaddafi wanted to be
the head A-rab and saddam wanted to be the head A-rab

and all the various mad power trippers
have wanted to be the head A-rab.

and see, King Faisal and King Fahd,
well, they "were" the head A-rab.

but day to day regular A-rabs saw them as
untrue to Islam and more in line
with western ideals.

and all of this made Israel happy,
because they had to fight
like 6 or 7 nations in 1967

and they weren't interested in having some
united states of A-rab to come up and
turn a unified look at Israel again.

and i don't know, King Faisal, he just liked
drinking coca cola and wasn't all the concerned with
"rising" to prominence, because after all,
he was already King Faisal.

but these others, they always started
out as the US's "democratic hopeful"
and then went off on the mad power trip.

but anyway, this bim-blabben guy, while he probably
doesn't have designs at being the main A-rab, he does use
some of the same rhetoric about a united Islamic nation.

and the forces of globalization don't
mind that part too much, but then

but see, Iran isn't an A-rab nation.
they're Persians. they ain't A-rabs.

in fact, a whole lotta muslims ain't A-rabs.

anyway, Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was
white as snow, and everwhere that Mary went the lamb
was sure to plant a very contrary garden.

or maybe it was Mary who planted the
contrary garden and the lamb just
kept filching cockleshells.

you'll hafta find that out.


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
John Jensen wrote:

uh, some of this is what we call "deadpan delivery"
and "gallows humor." some people don't understand
gallows humor because they've never been on the gallows.

*but* yes, of course i'm sure.

uh, look at the Love Canal.
it's some place in New York.
increase in cancer had zero to do with A-tests
and much to do with building homes
over toxic waste dumps.

but the way you say it, could just as well mean
that people are getting cancer from X-rays
and television sets. televisions emit
harmful radiation, and most people simply
sit too close to their sets.

so, are you still convinced that increased
cancer risk is directly attributable
to A-tests in the Nevada desert?

in general, the worry is in "fallout"

and "fallout" is the dust of a city's worth
of buildings being vaporized in a monment and
carried up into the jet stream where carries
across all hell and creation and radioactive
dust rains on other places.

but in the desert, there isn't as much
city junk and fallout may remain at a minimum.
and to a certain extent, that is why they
chose the Nevada desert to carry out the A-tests.

way back in the 40s.

or 50s, whatever.

they did some in the south pacific
on Nothing Atoll as well.

you know what else is a problem?

some bozo like Bim-blabben piping up and taking
credit for a lot if stuff he never did.
that's another possibility.

*but* sometimes all they want to hear is the truth.

and you sound like the type that will blab with nothing
more than some bright lights and maybe they punch
your teddy bear in the stomach or something.

of which "constitutional rights" do you feel deprived?
see, cuz, no one twists your arm and tells you to vote.

and when 150 million people do not
cast ballots, their voices are muted.

the people that you want to see will see.
they have brain tumors from sitting
too close to the television.

i wuz just makin' conversation.

*but* "showing the instruments" is something
they did during the Grand Inquisition.

I was a little younger then and
somewhat brash and indifferent,
and believe it or not, the intentions were good,
but some idiots went off and made a mess of things.

my idea was a training exercise for chefs,
but they turned it into this madness
to torture the religious into renouncing God.

but yet, you feel that your
"constitutional rights" have
been taken away by whom now?

so, what sort of "american" is it
that you feel that you are anyway?

a deprived and afflicted victim of oppression,

or the self righteous;

"my definition of america stops
right outside my own front door?"

either way, you don't sound like
Ethan Allen would be a friend of yours.

*I* think yer a Benedict Arnold.

and *I* think you just wanna pretend that
you and your limp wristed view is
the best way to go.

I don't have time for that.

now if you'll excuse me,

it's time for ***Captain Schmideo***


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

I answered your question, exactly, the first time.

more foot stamping from you.

always easier for you than ever
formulating a credible argument.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

sure it matters, Gnostics aren't christians.

Jesus Christ was not a Gnostic,
being like Jesus Christ is not
compatible with being a Gnostic.

as you like it.

but a _good_ jew would be a _good_ jew.

the taliban is contested by the "northern alliance"
and the "taliban" is not composed of afgannis.

they are simply a gang of thugs
who occupy some buildings in Kabul.

and a gang of thugs is not a formal government.

which is a wholly unsubstantiated claim on your part.

stamp your feet all you like, foot stamping
is not a valid nor credible form of argumentation.
but it is, the form you and yours like best,
because it comes so very easy to you.

christians are not being murdered
in afgannistan for being christians.

irrelevant.

"proselytizing muslims" is not synonymous
with "because they are christian"

and some people are being placed on
trial in afgannistan for proselytizing muslims.

not "because they are christians"

big difference, learn what that is.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

how do you manage to type with a brain the size of a pea

you're just mad cuz you are wrong and I am right, as usual.

if anyone sees me as treasonous it's
because they have become little commies.

and now, all of a sudden, it's "oh the military is my best
friend prrotect me jesus blah blah blah blah bnlahBLAH
BLAH ABLABNLAHL.QXHBWK;JACB'JK,

end quote.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On 3 Oct 2001 09:03:57 -0700, [email] (Richard
Alexander) wrote:

Your statements are true enough.  I guess the question
that remains, is should we use military strikes as a
means of retrieving someone we believe to be guilty,
instead of just a covert operation.  Of course,
"covert" is probably a moot idea now. :)

___

Pastor Dave

"In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to
find predictable progressions.  In general, these
have not been found - yet the optimism has die hard
and some pure fantasy has crept into the textbooks."
- Raup, David M., Evolution and the Fossil Record,
Science vol 213 (July 17, 1981) p. 289


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Thanx Richard, for a very well informed post. :-)

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

On 3 Oct 2001 09:03:57 -0700, [email] (Richard Alexander) wrote:


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and just so you know, the Grand Inquisition was
a thing that ocurred in the 1500s and not last year.

and part of what i was driving at was that some
of those behind The Inquisition were the so-called
"Imperial Edict" "Christians" who were not "christian"
at all but only wolves in cheap clothing crept in awares.

most people accept the accounts in hearsay histories,
and some actually *have* minds *of* their own.


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
ROFWL, I LOVE the new you !

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com

On Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:48:38 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Still ducking....

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:38:25 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

Never have, any time.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:34:59 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

Once more you demonstrate that you don't know the meaning of the word
"Christian"

Jesus Christ was not a Christian either.

LOL, being like your opinion of Jesus Christ, maybe.

<snip>

Like as a _good_ Englishman; Irlander; German;.....

<snip>

Same was said of the Unionist of the Civil War

You are willfully unaware of the world news

Blind you may be, but others both see and know the truth

You are confusing how foriegners are treated with how the laws both
read and are carried out concerning natives.
Their Christian adults are hung, and christian children are sent to be
re-educated

Yes, you are talking about foriegn internationals, seems your news is
blocked-out as to what they are doing with their own people.

Sir, they were hung for being Christians, I prayed for a number of
them while they awaited trial (a month or so before the attack in NY).
They are DEAD now, after being publically hung.

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:56:29 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

You do it all the time, so why ask me ?

Mad ? No not at all. As to you being "right" nothing you have
presented backs that possibility.

Bin Ladon exhausted "due process" long ago, by not turning himself in.
There is NO EXCUSE for not assanating him and his, accept for
cowardance.

Odd assertion, can you back this ???

Yep !  Tim has gone off his meds, again...

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
I PRAY it isn't covert, THOUSANDS of families need to SEE JUSTICE
DONE...

My second reason for hoping it is OPEN is that of justice for the VETS
which will result... I took part in covert action a three day and
night battle in the late 70s ("Peace time" in which "No war" took
place) I saw fourty body bags, Marines DEAD in a WAR  (THAT DID NOT
HAPPEN).
It is unfair, we can't even talk about it, not really... We suffer
from post-tramantic syndroms, without the "joy" of being "heros"

I have more to say.... but....  I can't

On Thu, 04 Oct 2001 21:16:00 GMT, Pastor Dave
<[email]> wrote:


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and if you'll carefully notice, some of my concerns
in these last weeks is that you don't run up and blame
a phantom and let the genie escape into the wind.

remember, I am an American, and just as much
a target of these things as anyone else.

but sanctimony and chest pounding won't solve any of this.


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

you are still vague and tiresome


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

while knowing exactly what Gnostics are presents no such problem.

and Jesus Christ would never suggest that Genesis
was a corrupted untrustable document in order
to bolster -his- "arguments". In fact, Jesus Christ
cited Genesis rather readily never giving any
indication that he felt it was corrupted in any way.

and given the idea of Genesis as an uncorrupted
and reputable document, all of *your* arguments
disappear in to the wind.

end of story.

but he most certainly was, like himself.

not only was he "like Christ" he _was_ Christ.

anything, just so long as i don't end up like you.

now define the english religion.

if they are a government, then America can negotiate with
them without negotiating with terrorists and they say
they will turn over bim-blabben if America supply them
with credible evidence as to his guilt.

do so, or declare war on them.

do sit there changing policies day to day.

no, we're just not up on your definition of Christian,
and wonder also, if you Infidel types wouldn't like
to see the same thing done here in America.

then they should know that christians in America are persona non grata.

sounds Pharaseeic not Islamic.

aberrant strains of Pharisseism pop up all over the place.

you should know, you subscribe to one of them.

i don't need to go there to see mistreatment of christians.

i can see it here in America.

Stephen was the first Christian Martyr.

he never feared them.

and neither do i fear you and yours.


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and i don't really give much of a cold faq
what you or anyone else thinks about me.

provided you keep your distance, and
don't point those things in *my* face.

thank you, and good night.


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
"Timothy Sutter" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
<snip>
<snip>

So why does the military feel compelled to replace all the livestock lost to
radiation poisening, in southwestern Utah?

Go tell it to John Wayne. He died soon after doing a movie on a test site.

Are you seriously insisting that radioactive fallout comes from vaporized
buildings, and NOT the radioactive material of the bomb, or the nuclear
fission?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

That is NOT ok, and my name is not Charlie.

to

Difference of a rather extraordinary magnitude. You are being irrelevant.

You presume yours is credible?

That research has failed to pass peer review.

With your assumptions.
I am not here to educate someone on nuclear medicine, who has shown himself
to be obviously unwilling to learn the subject.

Than where? Where is your demographics?

Oh, and now you want me to go to a secured military site and expose myself
to but radiation and bullets. If you think it is that safe, YOU should take
the measurements. YOU are the one who insists that it isn't a hazzard. You
are the one who is trying to deny the danger,and deny half the evidence to
boot.

So is Colorado, and that was never a problem when I was growing up there.

Irrelevant. Radiation causes a broad range of cancers. The numbers, however,
bear a close statistical correlation with the amount of radiation.

If you want facts, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!!

Your sloppy logic and obvious denial tells me you don't care about facts.
Please go swim in a test site, and be so considerate as to not dump any of
your fallowout in my directions.

- John Jensen


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:37:32 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

<snip>

I have chronic-pain, beyond what most can handle without dying of
shock. And you are correct laughter is great medicine (So is ANYTHING
that can get your mind off the pain for a few moments)

<snip>

And yet most countries' education systems surpass that of the USA....
Strange.

Clear as unjust vanity.

I can identify with that ! Because Houston gets hit with severe
flooding, I can't see my doctor,,,,, And *I* risk DYING of SHOCK
because of UNBEARABLE PAIN just because some pen pusher wants to
insist "abiding by the law"

This "War on Drugs" is a war AGAINST THE SUFFERING WHO NEED THEM !!!

You are ENJOYING this ??  I pray that YOU    NEVER    have to   DEPEND
ON such medications for   SURVIVAL.

I understand that YOU ARE A HEARTLESS    BASTARD.

No, because IDIOTS    ABUSE   certian drugs the INNOCENT WHO DEPEND ON
THESE MEDS (Mine are narcartics) TO SURVIVE    are allowed to DIE.

So FUCKING WHAT ??? We depend on them to LIVE, without them we die
slow terrible deaths as vegies with heart beats.

Kinda like the abortion argument the fetuses have "no rights", isn't
it ???
Hope you aren't against abortion, because if you are, I smell a
HYPOCRIT.

PAIN   CRIPPLES, it takes away the ability to do the things which
others can do. It also kills the brain, and when SHOCK sets in it
STOPS THE HEART.

Yes, I DEMAND the RIGHT TO LIVE !!!!

You would just LOVE forcing those able to (that option is not
available to me) to turn to crime IN ORDER TO STAY ALIVE wouldn't
you ???

NONE EXISTS. (It has ALL been tried)

<snip>

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 05:51:26 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

You know what the question is, and as the coward that you are, you
still refuse to answer it.

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com


subject: Re: end of the rule of law?

text:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 05:49:08 -0400, Timothy Sutter
<[email]> wrote:

ROFWL, you forget I already had caused you to cower away once already,
we are made of much stronger stuff than your brand of Christianity. I
KNOW that we Gnostics are a much bigger "problem" than you are able to
handle.
So run away again like a good little coward.

Do you really want to go there ?  I would LOVE to see you actually
take up the challenge

You are counting on short memories, as YOU were the one who
disappeared in the wind, never addressing the arguments still being
presented.
When it got too hot for you you ran out of the kitchen. And I expect
that you will do it again.

Those threads all ended with my posts being the only ones in them, as
Timmy stopped responding, Timmy ran away.

Watch everyone, I am sure Timmy, the Bin Labin LOVER will vanish
AGAIN !

Does this mean you are going to runn away AGAIN ???

He was HIMSELF, Christians are LIKE Christ, meaning NOT Christ
HIMSELF.

That is why He wasn't/isn't a Christian.

You may find that by doing so, you won't be like Christ either, as
your words do not show the fruit of the Spirit, that we are to love
one another.

Like Jew, English, isn't a religion, but JUDAISM is a religion.

Provided they are WILLING to negotiate, which they are NOT. They have
ONE solution, turn over Bin Ladin, or die with him

In this we agree, I DO wish Bush would ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.

Personally I believe we should be fighting already !

<snip>

Regardless of how it may sound, it IS what has been happening over
there.

I agree, these monsters are not practicing what the Qu'ran teaches (at
least in accordance with how the majority of Moslems read it)

Your attempt at side-tracking from the issue at hand isn't working. We
aren't talking about me. We are talking about the Taliban.

Murder is "mistreatment" ?

In what dimention ??
Personally I don't know of anyone here in the USA facing capital
punishment just because they are Christians.

I think you are trying to run away from the issue here.

Not surprised.

What does THAT have to do with what is happening TODAY ?

Can't admit that maybe you were wrong in your claim that the Taliban
isn't killing people just because they are Christians ?

HUH ??? Where are you coming from ? When and where have I been
threatening you ?

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
matthew25-jesusjudgment.cityslide.com


subject: Re: showing the instruments

text:
Timothy Sutter wrote:

and, before you make that Grand Leap and
consider me "anti-papist" just remember,
the Pope was the one making several broad
ranging and Grand Apologies just a few whiles back.

not that he was responsible for anything done
under the banner of that Church over
the centuries, but being the Pope he felt some
intrinsic necessity to make amends for his body.

no, not *everything* that i may say in my life
has a direct relation to the actions of Sept 11,
and this does not, it's wholly unrelated, unless
you feel. that there is some relationship
that i don't see.

and it's quite unclear to me that Christ
or Peter or Paul or John or Timothy Sutter

would have ever encouraged torture
as a method of spiritual conversion.

well, not unclear at all, it would never even
be dreamt much less suggested as appropriate
much less undertaken as a direct methodology.

"ay, Tim, you place yourself
in happy company don't yuh fella?"

actually, yes, we have the same God.

and I don't much care to see
that God maligned for whatever reason.

not that God needs me to save God, but,
if I can, in any way, get it across that
the God of Christ is *not* and never your enemy,
I feel somewhat compelled to do so.

don't ever convince yourselves that
all this trouble is God's fault.

or more importantly, believe that there is no God.

but clearly, there are times and opportunities
when people erect statues that represent only
their own self interests and go to great
lengths to support their privately held
interpretations of Deity or simply the
magnifiscence of their own reflections.

this is just a generalized human frailty.

I know where i stand.

this is my age old self appraisal;

that negligible mote of dust that you
cannot remove from the balance of the Universe.

it doesn't effect the weighing in the
grand scheme of things, but it is there,
nonetheless.

believe it or not, that's me.