author: Peter Terpstra

text:
DALAI LAMA’S NEW MOVE -WHY CHINA LOOKS SO MISERABLE?
[Friday, March 25, 2011 13:46]

The new move from Dalai Lama has taken out the steam from the Chinese road roller that the Beijing leaders have been
hoping to ride on to overwhelm the post-Dalai Lama scenario.

By Vijay Kranti

Dalai Lama has always loved to introduce and present himself as a ‘humble monk’. To those who are not blessed to
respect, or even appreciate humility as a human virtue, this statement might present this Tibetan monk statesman as a
‘weak’ or a ‘timid’ person who is always available for shaking and shoving.

Ironically this has been more true with the Chinese Communist leadership who have been dealing with Dalai Lama since he
was the teenager ruler of the country that eventually became their colony. As history has proved in due course, China would
have gained far more had its leaders understood this man better and accepted him at his face value.

Instead of writing a thesis to prove this point I would rather prefer only to wonder why the rulers of a country that is
armed with one of the most powerful armies of the modern world, enormous economic resources and 1.3 billion people
should present themselves so miserably irritated in front of a stateless man who leads a microscopic bunch of 150,000 poor
refugees? The worst irony of the situation is that they go into comical fits even when this ‘humble monk’ decides to give
up all those limited powers that he has been drawing as the leader of these handful people.

On his latest proposal for discontinuation of the traditional selection process of Dalai Lama through reincarnation Beijing
leaders could not go beyond presenting themselves as a bunch of jokers by choosing to give him a lecture on promoting and
protecting ‘Tibetan traditions’ and ‘religious rituals’. They have humiliatingly exposed their vulnerability vis-à-vis a group
of 47 elected representatives of this refugee community by opposing Dalai Lama’s decision to abdicate his political powers
to the elected Prime Minister and 46 members of Parliament.

Beijing used Pema Choeling, a leading Tibetan collaborator and Chinese appointed governor of Tibet Autonomous Region
(TAR) to contest and denounce the proposal of Dalai Lama. "We must respect the historical institutions and religious rituals
of Tibetan Buddhism," said Pema to the Western journalists in Beijing. He also reminded the Dalai Lama that "Tibetan
Buddhism has a history of more than 1,000 years, and the reincarnation institutions of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama
have been carried on for several hundred years." By adding further that “I am afraid it is not up to anyone whether to
abolish the reincarnation institution or not," Pema only reflected Beijing’s irritation and shock on destabilizing its plans to
settle the Tibetan issue by appointing its own handpicked candidate as the next Dalai Lama when the present aging Dalai
Lama passes away.

Interestingly this statement from Dalai Lama came at a time when the election process for the new ‘Kalon Tripa’ (read
‘Prime Minister’) of the Tibetan Government in Exile and the ‘Chitue’ (Parliament) was in its concluding stage. The 5-year
term of the new Prime Minister and the 15th Parliament is scheduled to start in June this year.

In Tibetan tradition the supreme spiritual and temporal authorities of the country vest with the Dalai Lama whose title
shifts after his death to his reincarnation. The current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso (75) is the 14th in an over 500 year old
chain of succession. He announced his above decisions in his annual 10th March statement at Dharamsala which marked the
56th anniversary of failed Tibetan uprising against the eight year old Chinese rule over Tibet and his subsequent flight to
exile in India in 1959.

DESPERATE ACT?
To outsiders who have watched Tibetan scene from a distance or just as a passing reference in fast moving political
developments vis-à-vis China, this decision of Dalai Lama may appear to be an abrupt one or an expression of his
desperation emanating from his failure to deal with his Chinese counterparts. But to those who have been watching his
political moves since his early exile days with microscopic interest, the Dalai Lama’s 10th March announcement is the
logical culmination of a process which he started 50 years ago with the aim of establishing an effective and a long lasting
alternative machinery to keep the Tibetan struggle alive far beyond his personal life span. That should explain the Chinese
irritation and Beijing’s near comic stance of standing for promoting and protecting ‘Tibetan traditions’ and ‘religious
rituals’.

A DEMOCRATIC DALAI LAMA
For a quick review, one of the first decisions which the exiled religious ruler of Tibet took following his exile from Chinese
occupied Tibet was to replace the traditional theocratic system with a democratic one. In 1963 he presented a draft
constitution which called for democratic governance through a Parliamentary system and was based on UN’s Universal
Declaration of Human Rights. He started with a handpicked Parliament and a cabinet of ministers who were nominated by
him. Soon it graduated into an elected parliament that would choose its own PM.

In 1991 he redrafted the constitution to enhance the status of elected Parliament to one as the supreme power centre of
Tibetan system. The new constitution, more known as the ‘Charter for future Tibet’, empowered the Parliament even to
dethrone the Dalai Lama from his supreme executive position if it was convinced that the Dalai Lama was ‘failing in his
national duties’.

In 2001 the Dalai Lama further democratized the system by introducing a directly elected Prime Minister who was
answerable to the elected Parliament. He limited his own role only to a titular executive head of the Tibetan government.
And now after a gap of another decade he has asked the Parliament to further revise the constitution in which the Dalai
Lama will not even hold any titular political powers.

New amendments will leave any future Dalai Lama only as a supreme ‘religious’ leader, devoid of his traditional political
and executive powers. Even on this front, he has called upon the Tibetan community to do away with the traditional
system of selecting a new Dalai Lama through reincarnation and replace it with one that passes on the title to the next
person who is acknowledged as a capable and learned scholar and leader.

A MASTER STROKE
If applied, the new proposals of the Dalai Lama hold many political and social advantages that are very vital for the
microscopic Tibetan exile community comprising of just 150,000 individuals facing an adversary with 1.3 billion population.
It has the potential of snatching away most of political initiatives from the hands of Beijing leaders who are eagerly waiting
for this Dalai Lama to pass away so that they can present their own handpicked incarnate puppet baby as the ‘real’ Dalai
Lama.

On the home front, the new ‘Government in Exile’, empowered will all the powers so far vested in the Dalai Lama, will
have a better status in the international arena. The new system holds promises of providing the Tibetans with a popular
institutionalized leadership that has much longer shelf life than a living individual human being viz. the Dalai Lama as a
person. The real question remains how capable and sincere the next set of elected representatives proves itself in coming
years?

A SAFETY VALVE ?
The new system is also going to save the Tibetan political system from the fatal dangers of inertia and confusion which
come with a nearly 20-year long leadership void that follows the death of a Dalai Lama. His executive powers are
transferred to his incarnate only after his attainment of adulthood. All Tibetan governments in past 500 years have
suffered from this political ‘bardo’ (a spiritual term in the Tibetan system that refers to the transitional period between a
person’s death and his/her next birth). There have been many cases in Tibetan history when the political and executive
powers of Dalai Lama were manipulated and misused by some members of the caretaker committee of Regents during this
transition period. In some cases the baby Dalai Lamas died under questionable circumstances.

Interestingly, despite all these gains for the exile community, the new system is not going to take away the advantages
that the Dalai Lama has already accumulated in past years, thanks to his sheen and charisma among the international
community. Rather, his new role may give him freedom from most of the liabilities that have been weighing down on him
due to his earlier political role as the executive head of a ‘government-in-exile’. His new status may come far handier to
those governments and heads of state across the globe who have been keen to receive the Dalai Lama but have been
reluctant to do so out of fear of antagonizing Beijing.

NEW ROLE FOR DALAI LAMA
Turning down the requests of the Tibetan ‘Kashag’ (the Cabinet of ministers) and the Parliament to reconsider his current
proposal, the Dalai Lama has already assured his supporters that his proposal does not mean that he is ‘retiring’ from his
public life and that he is going to remain publicly active and available to the Tibetan cause. He will also be available to the
Tibetan exile government and Tibetan people in an ‘advisory’ role. To allay fears expressed by his people and his
international supporters about his future role in the Tibetan struggle he has also made it clear that he is not going to stop
traveling abroad or talking about Tibet.

This new development has shocked and embarrassed the Chinese leaders who have been consistently trying to belittle the
Tibetan issue merely as one limited to the person of present Dalai Lama. In their campaigns, aimed at downplaying his
religious and political role, they have been trying to paint the Dalai Lama, both as an institution as well as a person, in as
impolite terms as a ‘serf owner’, ‘gang leader of bandits’ and a ‘wolf in the robes of a monk’. Despite all claims about a
so called ‘Beijing-Dharamsala ‘dialogue’ that ran for over a decade, the Chinese leadership never moved beyond offering
safe and comfortable return of the exiled leader to Beijing (not to Tibet).

Interestingly, the Chinese side, represented exclusively by the ‘United Front’ department of the Communist Party of China
(not the ‘Government’ of China) in this ‘dialogue’ process have been consistently labeling and receiving the Dharamsala
representatives as the ‘representatives of the Dalai Lama’ and not of the ‘Tibetan Government-in-Exile’ (TGIE). Whether
Beijing is going to continue this ‘dialogue’ with the representatives of the new ‘Kalon Tripa’ or Dharamsala based TGIE, will
be a billion dollar question.

In view of Beijing’s fixation on Dalai Lama it is not surprising that China has limited its reaction only to the Dalai Lama’s
proposal about the future role of the institution of Dalai Lama. Although Beijing is striving hard to steer off Dalai Lama’s
reference to the abdication of his powers in favor of the elected representatives of Tibetan community this decision of the
exiled leader has only made things further complicated and confusing for the Beijing leadership. They may find it more
difficult now to handle the post-Dalai Lama situation, especially on matters related to the selection of his next heir.

ROLES REVERSED?
Dalai Lama’s new proposal has suddenly given a funny twist to the entire Tibetan issue. Contrary to his well established role
as a champion of Tibetan traditions and religious institutions, the Dalai Lama has emerged as a committed champion of
democracy who is ready to sacrifice his own political privileges. On the other hand Beijing leaders, who have been always
more known for their anti-religion and anti-culture policies in their Tibetan colony, are suddenly seen presenting themselves
as committed champions of Tibetan religious traditions and ritual practices.

CHINA’S NEW RELIGION STRATEGY
To understand this intriguing role reversal of Beijing and Dharamsala, one needs to understand China’s changing Tibet
strategy in recent years. A remarkably visible shift towards using religion and religious institutions to improve their grip on
Tibet has been emerging of late. Since occupation of Tibet in 1951 till late 1980s Beijing leaders have been openly
encouraging annihilation of religion and religious institutions from Tibet. It came from their sincere belief that ‘backward’
religious faith and social values were the main stumbling blocks in the way of their new Tibetan subjects towards becoming
progressive and patriotic ‘Chinese’ citizens.

However, the historic anti-China and pro-Dalai Lama uprising of 1989 in Tibet and the leading role played in it by the
Tibetan youths who were born, brought up and educated under the Chinese rule, forced the Chinese leaders to sit up and
review their Tibet strategy. During their strategy meeting of ‘Third Work Forum’ in 1991 a two pronged strategy of
crushing dissent and using Tibetan religious institutions for improving Chinese grip over Tibet was adopted.
It was this dual approach which encouraged the Chinese administrators in Tibet to give limited religious freedom to
Tibetans inside Tibet. Revival of selected monasteries and temples, closed or destroyed during the Cultural Revolution
decade, was permitted.

The first bold experiment undertaken under this policy was to find the reincarnation of 16th Karma Pa of Tsurphu
monastery near Lhasa who had died in exile in 1981. Chinese government invited a senior regent of the late Karma from
Rumtek in India to head the search team of monks. Eventually a boy Ogyen Trinley Dorje (7) was found and was recognized
both by the exiled Dalai Lama as well as the Beijing government. Beijing patronized his enthronement which was held with
a big fanfare in the presence of many invited European followers of previous Karma Pa. The ceremony was also widely
televised on Chinese network. For many reasons the Karma Pa has been considered as an import religious leader in the
Tibetan hierarchy.

THE PANCHEN LAMA BLUNDER
Encouraged by the success on Karma Pa the Beijing leaders decided to find the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama
who had died in 1989. Panchen Lama occupies the second highest place in Tibetan system after the Dalai Lama. China had
used the 10th Panchen Lama as a counter against the Dalai Lama following latter’s escape to exile. In 1995 a committee of
senior Tibetan monks under the leadership of a senior Communist Party official was established to find the new incarnate
boy. But the plans went haywire as some of the monks quietly informed the Dalai Lama and received his approval for the
new boy Gedhun Choekyi Nyima (6) before Beijing could know about it.

Enraged Chinese government arrested the boy and his parents and installed its own handpicked boy candidate Gyancain
Norbu as the ‘real’ 11th Panchen Lama. Since then Gedhun and his parents are missing and China refuses to reveal their
whereabouts despite an international campaign for the ‘youngest prisoner of conscience’. This anti-China campaign is still
supported by hundreds of human right groups which include Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

KARMA PA’s ESCAPE
Things took another sad for Beijing turn in the opening days of 2000 when Karma Pa quietly escaped to India via Nepal and
joined Dalai Lama in exile at Dharamsala. Though Chinese government regularly presents its ‘Panchen Lama’ on the
national TV but he has miserably failed to win acceptance of ordinary Tibetans. So much so that in my many thousand km
travels through Tibetan towns and villages in Kham, Amdo and U-Tsang provinces of Tibet in recent years I have yet to see
the first photo of the government sponsored ‘Panchen Lama’ in a Tibetan home, restaurant, shop, rickshaw or a taxi. A
Chinese woman who sells a wide range of Tibetan religious posters in the old part of Lhasa told me that she does not keep
his photos “because no Tibetan wants to buy it”.

WINDOW DRESSING
However, this has not discouraged the Chinese administrators in TAR or Tibetan areas in the adjoining Chinese provinces of
Yunnan, Sichuan, Qinghai and Ganzu from rehabilitating many big monasteries and temples, especially the ones which fall
on the tourist circuit of Tibet. These monasteries are now encouraged to have their respective ‘Living Buddhas’ (incarnate
Tulku, addressed as ‘Rimpoche’ by Tibetans) and install them as heads of the monastery.

In dozens of Tibetan monasteries and temples which I visited like Ganden, Drepung, Sera, Jokhang (all around Lhasa) and
Samten Ling in Shangri la, Karze, Lithang, Kirti and Robkong etc the religious compounds present colourful picture-
postcard views for the tourists. The monks there live a highly controlled life but their public debates are a big draw for the
camera wielding tourists.

BUDDHISM : BEIJING’s ROADSHOW
At international Buddhist conferences too the Chinese government makes it a point to send huge delegations of its religious
‘scholars’. At many such events the organizers are influenced or coerced by local Chinese embassies to stop Tibetan
participation. In recent years Beijing has hosted two international Buddhist conferences where its own ‘Panchen Lama’ was
presented prominently but Dalai Lama and his fellow Rimpoches or scholars were kept away.

In 2007 Chinese government announced its new policy on Tibetan religious practices including the new rules on all ‘Living
Buddhas’ which also include highest ranking reincarnate lamas like the Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama and Karma Pa etc. These
rules clearly say that each ‘Living Buddha’ will require official authorization and no ‘Living Buddha’ will be recognized
without the official permission.

However, the new move from Dalai Lama has taken out the steam from the Chinese road roller that the Beijing leaders
have been hoping to ride in and overwhelm the post-Dalai Lama scenario. This master stroke from the monk statesman
has once again proved that Tibet is going to stay a pain in the neck of a nation that is brooding great ambition of
occupying number one place on the world forum.

The views expressed in this piece are that of the author and the publication of the piece on this website does not
necessarily reflect their endorsement by the website.

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=29303&article=DALAI+LAMA%E2%80%99S+NEW+MOVE+-
WHY+CHINA+LOOKS+SO+MISERABLE%3f


author: lo yeeOn

subject: Da Lama, a CIA/NED Stooge and a Symbol of Iniquity, Failed his People:Forget about Da Lama's New Move or rather Da Lama's New Hat

text:
In article <12531846.7uLZWGnKmh@Dharma>,
Peter Terpstra  <[email]> wrote:

This paragraph really sums up who the real Da Lama is.  His public
persona is just image making.  American president Ronald Reagan was
famous for presenting himself as an "aw shucks", your grand uncle kind
of congenial nice guy.  And George W Bush presented himself as a guy
you would want to have a beer with and tried to convince the people
that he would be an inward-looking president if he were elected.

DaLai Lama has been a paid shill for the US government's propaganda
machine and in return millions have flown back to his organization.

Of course, it would serve his agenda that he would have nothing to
gain personally from his going around making quaint little speech of
compassion.

But ultimately, even when he was a teenager ruler, he was responsible
for relentlessly expanding the building project at his summer palace
Norbulingka.  It's a historical fact: Da Lama and his immediate
predecessor the 13th Chief Lama were mostly responsible for building
Norbulingka.  The Wikipedia article on Norbulingka even mentioned the
building of a movie theater under his intimate friend Herr Heinrich
Harrer's direction.  Da Lama saw nothing wrong in ordering the
building of the movie theater.  Da Lama saw nothing wrong with
exploiting the labor of "his people" so that he and his friends could
enjoy movies night after night, movie after movie, imported from the
West.  Da Lama saw fit to keep more than 80% of "his people" as serfs,
who were only good for doing the hard physical labor of working the
land and building sumptuous palatial buildings but not worth providing
with education.  So, by 1950 when the Chinese liberation army came
into Tibet, the vast majority of Tibetans were illiterate and
disempowered.

The Wikipedia article's mention of the movie-theater building at
Norbulingka poignantly confirms the Hollywood movie titled

 "Seven Years in Tibet"

which retraced Herr Heinrich Harrer's multi-year close interaction
with the boy-king Da Lama.  The movie was based on Harrer's book of
the same title.

According to Wikipedia:

 Seven Years in Tibet or

  Sieben Jahre in Tibet. Mein Leben am Hofe des Dalai Lama

 is an autobiographical travel book written by Austrian mountaineer
 Heinrich Harrer based on his real life experiences in Tibet between
 1944 and 1951 during the Second World War and the interim period
 before the Communist Chinese People's Liberation Army invaded Tibet in
 1950.

 The book covers the escape of former Nazi SS Officer Harrer, and his
 companion Peter Aufschnaiter, from a British internment camp in
 India. Harrer and Aufschnaiter then travelled across Tibet to Lhasa,
 the capital. Here they spent several years, and Harrer describes the
 contemporary Tibetan culture in detail. Harrer subsequently became a
 tutor and friend of the 14th Dalai Lama.

So unless you accuse of Harrer of lying, his memoir gave us a powerful
glimpse into the last years of the feudal theocracy under Da Lama.

Da Lama chose to monopolize Harrer as his personal tutor and went so
far as making him director of the movie-house building project when
the people who were doing the hard physical labor of building had to
also endure the trauma of digging out writhing worms who lived beneath
the cold hard ground of Norbulingka.

In the Movie, Da Lama's people were shown agonizing over the task they
had no choice but to perform, as it was the order of the boy king and
their god Bhudda reincarnated in human form at the moment.  But they
couldn't understand what was going on.

First, they were already perplexed by having a foreigner to lord over
them and tell them what to do.  They had to because when Harrer first
entered Tibet, he was noisely chased away by a crowd of village people
as they chanted "foreign devil, foreign devil!" once he and his travel
companion was spotted.  Second, they were taught that their mothers
who had died, many of them at a young age, had reincarnated into the
bodies of worms living in the cold hard ground of the Himalayas.

And finally, they had to personally disturb and even injure and cause
pain to them, the miserable creatures who, they were told, were once
their beloved mothers whose love they yearned for and had long missed.

It's worth asking how such an insensitive ruler, who has never
apologized for his excesses and indulgence and his neglect of "his
people", their welfare, their education, and their empowerment, should
be coddled and further indulged to spread phony messages of kindness
and compassion, with a hidden agenda of destabilizing China and
disrupting the progress that has been made in Tibet since he the
People's Liberation of Army came and uprooted the stranglehold of the
feudal theocracy.

Da Lama is a symbol of iniquity.  Even his intimate friend Herr
Heinrich Harrer's book strongly hints at that.  He belongs to the past
and he will be buried with the past, regardless the number of hats he
has and chooses to put on his skull at the moment.

What has Da Lama ever done to benefit "his people"?  While he was
their ruler, he just exploited them.  Qaddafi, whom the US/UK-led
coalition is now hunting, has probably done more to benefit the Libyan
people than Da Lama ever did for the Tibetan people. Just look at the
number of the Libyans who are still fighting for on Qaddafi's side
despite the immense pressure coming from the devastating airstrikes
that have been inflicted on the land of Libya!

Da Lama is a symbol of iniquity.  As a ruler, he failed "his people"!

What Da Lama is doing has nothing to do with benefiting the Tibetan
people.  He is doing absolutely nothing to help them learn medicine,
science, mathematics, or even reading.

As far as i can tell from the public record, the vast majority of the
Tibetan people have no training, have little education, and are
horribly disempowered, much worse than the people of Libya.  Even the
Tibetan refugees can only find jobs waiting tables in restaurants and
they live in squalid conditions in India.  Can't he even use some of
the NED/CIA money so they can get some education and therefore better
jobs?

The Tibetan people today continue to be a fundamentally illiterate
people.  Most of them are under-educated and super-superstitious, even
by the world's standards today.

Consider this: the three candidates who are currently running for the
job of prime minister for the Tibetan government-in-exile consist of
two university lecturers teaching Tibetan Studies at Harvard and
Stanford (largely because they can speak English as native Tibetans)
plus a politician based in Dharmasala, where the government-in-exile
is based.  It's a glaring indication that the Tibetan people have no
better intellectuals than these highly inadequate candidates to speak
for them.  It's ultimately a fundamentally illiterate people who are
being misled by Da Lama and his lamas sitting in Dharmasala spreadingn
lies about China, hurting the Chinese people, and trying to stop their
progress.  (Can you imagine that a candidate for public office
in America, even given our dumbed-down politicians, would be
a professor of American studies at some foreign university?)

Da Lama and "his people" are a fundamentally illiterate people.

Yet he is still using them, "his people", to advance the hidden agenda
of the West, which is bent on destabilizing China, destabilizing it
enough to incite a regime change to one of its liking, to one it can
freely exploit as it did in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Da Lama is a symbol of iniquity.  As a ruler, he failed "his people"!

lo yeeOn
========

It's better to ignore those who claimed that the horribly repressive
feudal theocracy of Tibet was a paradise, especially from those who
had to cite Da Lama's number of honorary degrees to justify his
holiness.

It's especially problematic when these propagandists pull out what a
dead man said a century ago.  We cannot cross-examine him and ask him
how he could excuse the practice of chopping off people's hands and
feet for punishment under Da Lama; how more than 80% of the population
were slaves who worked the land but were not allowed to own it under
him; and how Da Lama and his immediate predecessor could justify
busying themselves with building their summer palace Norbulingka for
their own enjoyment at great cost to the poor laborers whom Da Lama
called "my people".

Their cost was both the hard physical labor as well as the thought of
disturbing and injuring their deceased mothers who, they were told,
had been reincarnated as worms living in the cold hard earth (because
of their lowly social status, their fate).

Da Lama and his Tibetan theocracy was nothing but a little mafia
operation which took advantage of the weak when the central government
was corrupt and did not have the resources to make sure they did not
abuse their own people.  But when the corrupt central government was
finally overthrown by the people, when the whole country was awakened
to the call of equality, education, and progress among all, when land
reform became a necessary first step, Da Lama and his lamas resisted
and tried to fight the central government.  When they were easily
defeated, Da Lama forsook his people and fled to the West to become a
paid stooge for the CIA.

Nobody has ever recognized Tibet as a nation.

And even when Da Lama appealed to the British and the US governments
to defend him and his lamas in 1950, they ignored him!

Why?

Are those not historical facts?

What CIA/NED-backed Da Lama and his lamas have been trying to do is to
have their sock puppets populate the newsgroups to try to spread false
information and sow the falsehood that there are so-called "50-centers"
who are working hard in these newsgroups for the Chinese government.

lo yeeOn
========

Golden stupas, the Mummy in Potola, and Da Lama -  symbol of inequity

This has gone a long way to show a lack of legitimacy for the feudal
theocracy, i.e., it was always a client entity to some big power,
i.e., it has never had an independent status, i.e., it's like your pet
whose name you as owner chose according to your own fancy.  The case
is now closed!

But that's ok too, if these lamas who ruled the Tibetans had made a
positive contribution to the masses' well beings.  But they didn't!

These lamas only worried about satisfying their only selfish desires.

They exploited the people and made over 80% of them serfs and rendered
them illiterate, even as late as in the 1950s, when Da Lama decided to
flee and leave "his people" behind (when the land reformers came and
told them in no uncertain terms that either they, the lamas, would
give the land back to the masses who had worked it and would continue
to work it or somebody else would have to do it for them, with or
without these lamas' consent).

Da Lama and the lamas are now asking the world to rip up China and
hand one-sixth of it to them on a silver platter.

And they're doing this on the false premise that they're legit and
they are good.

But nothing is further from the truth as the opulent Potola and
Norbulingka have proved beyond a doubt.

(Norbulingka was Da Lama's summer palace in Lhasa before he fled
Tibet.)

As we can see from what is written below, Da Lama and the lamas are
actually guys without much foresight but with a lot of arrogance and
self-entitlement.  In short, they were shooting themselves in the
feet.  And those shots have hit them hard!  They are in demise and
nobody except themselves is the cause of it, as historical records
show.

According to the Wikipedia article on Norbulingka,

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbulingka

 The Norbulingka palace has been mostly identified with the 13th and
 the 14th Dalai Lamas who commissioned most of the structures seen
 here now.

 . . .

 There is also a zoo at Norbulingka, originally to keep the animals
 which were given to the Dalai Lamas. Heinrich Harrer helped the 14th
 Dalai Lama build a small movie theatre there in the 1950s.

So who says Da Lama, aka the 14th Dalai Lama, was too young to be
responsible for the feudal system, the serfdom, and their iniquity
there?

 The palace, with 374 rooms, is located 3 kilometres (1.9 mi) west of
 the Potala Palace, which was the winter palace. It is in the western
 suburb of Lhasa City on the bank of the Kyichu River. When
 construction of the palace was started (during the 7th Dalai Lama's
 period) in the 1740s, the site was a barren land, overgrown with
 weeds and scrub and infested with wild animals.[6]

 Fruit trees of apple, peach and apricot were also reported (but the
 fruits did not ripen in Lhasa) . . .

We already knew about the little fact that Da Lama was already asking
Herr Heinrich Harrer to direct "his people" to build a movie cinema
for him when he was only a boy, from the highly sympathetic Hollywood
movie about Da Lama named "Seven Years in Tibet", a portrayal based on
Harrer's own published account of his time in Tibet.

Writing as Da Lama's close friend, the veracity of Da Lama's seemingly
innocent edict cannot be challenged.  Yet, the stressful thing is how
the edict was impacting on the poor men and women who had to labor in
the deathly cold Himalayan weather, both physically and emotionally,
to do the work and build the theater.

It was bad enough that the working Tibetans had to do the hard work
outdoors without being able to enjoy the fruit of their labor (as
Norbulingka, Da Lama's summer palace, was a private residence for his
own enjoyment, just as his Potola Palace was, and not a park or some
venue for public consumption).

It became unbearably distressing when Da Lama and the lamas had
brainwashed the laborers into believing that their mothers had
reincarnated themselves as worms in the hard cold ground so that the
fulfilment of the little god-king's edict actually amounted to
disturbing the peace and injuring the little lowly bodies of their
(deceased) _mothers_.

In other words, it was not enough for the conniving lamas to exploit
the ignorance of the lowly serfs which constituted the vast majority
of the whole Tibetan society in as late as the 1950s in order to keep
them believing that the lowly's place shall always be lowly with this
kind of trick which is dressed in the form of transmigration of the
soul; it had to be that these lowly serfs had to be also willing to
sacrifice their _mothers_ to satisfy the lamas' many desires.  So,
just Go figure!

Actually the idea of the place the lowly are condemned to hold is
nothing original!  It is strictly a copy of the Chinese Confucian
social order.  The only surprise is the degree of disingenuousness and
exploitation Da Lama and the lamas were willing to take themselves to
to satisfy their own many selfish interests at the expense of others.

They didn't even have an ounce of compassion!  They are in fact the
most insensitive beings humanity has witnessed on earth!

Al Capone and his friends in the Mafia were at least mincing no words
about who they were.  Here a bunch of lamas with Da Lama at the head
are telling the world they are good people and they are legit so that
you ought to show some compassion for them and help them to regain
control of the land they used to own (at the expense of those who
worked it, i.e., through naked exploitation).

Since Norbulingka was largely a private enterprise at the public's
expense under the 13th and the 14th Da Lamas, it wasn't too young for
the current Da Lama as a boy to exploit his people, was it?

Now look at this:

 When construction of the palace was started (during the 7th Dalai
 Lama's period) in the 1740s, the site was a barren land, overgrown
 with weeds and scrub and infested with wild animals.

And,

 Fruit trees of apple, peach and apricot were also reported (but the
 fruits did not ripen in Lhasa) . . .

What does it tell us?

a) Da Lama wanted the fruit trees maintained anyway even though fruits
   could not ripen in Lhasa's climate --- extravagant!

b) Da Lamas have preached compassion and the transmigration of the
human souls to the animals as a fundamental tenet of their religion.
Yet what happened when it comes time for their own private enjoyment?

They went and killed off the wild animals are drove them out!  Now if
there is any poetic justice, it will just be right for these lamas and
Da Lama to be driven out, just as they drove out the wild animals when
they were perceived by these lamas as not serving them!  Since Da Lama
and the lamas proclaim to believe in karma, it's hard for see why what
they did to the animals before should apply to them personally now!

It's called sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!  It's called
poetic justice!

lo yeeOn
========

Da Lama as a symbol of inequity

The Potola Palace and its riches from the Wikipedia:

 West Chapel

 This is the chapel that contains the five golden stupas. The enormous
 central stupa, 14.85 metres (49 ft) high, contains the mummified body
 of the Fifth Dalai Lama. This stupa is built of sandalwood and is
 remarkably coated in 3,727 kg (8,200 lb) of solid gold and studded
 with 18,680 pearls and semi-precious jewels.[19] On the left is the
 funeral stupa for the Twelfth Dalai Lama and on the right that of the
 Tenth Dalai Lama. The nearby stupa for the 13th Dalai Lama is 22
 metres (72 ft) high. The stupas on both ends contain important
 scriptures.

 The tomb of the 13th Dalai Lama is located west of the Great West
 Hall and it can only be reached from an upper floor and with the
 company of a monk or a guide of the Potala. Built in 1933, the giant
 stupa contains priceless jewels and one ton of solid gold.

So are you sure that Da Lama didn't haul away some of that "one ton of
solid gold" as he was on donkey back to India?

And where did these riches come from as some 80% of the Tibetans were
serfs until the CCP came?

You should think a little bit about these two questions.

Now, why did they mummify the 5th Dalai Lama instead of giving him a
"sky burial" as the feudal theocracy has preached to the faithful that
it's the way to go for their loved ones?  Were the lamas thinking that
the god-king was too good to be eaten up by ravens?  Consider the fact
that the 5th Dalai Lama must have lived no more than 500 or so years
ago at a time when the Europeans were already emerging from the Dark
Age, when Leonardo Da Vinci and Albert Duerer were already on the
scene leading humanity into the Renaissance, when Columbus and
Magellan were already convincing the Europeans that the idea of a flat
earth could no longer stand, the social inequity in Tibet under the
lamas was not only stark but on the rise.  And it is clear that the
lamas were working hard to accumulate wealth as well as privileges.
For them to hang on to their wealth and privileges through keeping the
overwhelming serf majority ignorant and superstitious so that they
can be thoroughly controlled by the ruling class is one reason why it
was a good thing that the CCP came and liberate the people from the
feudal theocracy in Tibet.  So, the lamas decided to resist or run
instead of voluntarily giving up the land to the people who work it,
even ten years after the communists took power in China?  Then they
should stay away.  There is no room for feudal landlords in the 21st
century, especially not in Tibet, really.

It is not me who came up with the story of a rich Da Lama carrying a
hoard of gold on donkey backs.  First, the Wikipedia about the Potola
Palace talks a lot about the gold stupas.  It also mentions this:

 The tomb of the 13th Dalai Lama is located west of the Great West
 Hall and it can only be reached from an upper floor and with the
 company of a monk or a guide of the Potala. Built in 1933, the giant
 stupa contains priceless jewels and one ton of solid gold.

So are you sure that Da Lama didn't haul away some of that "one ton of
solid gold" as he was on donkey back to India?

And another page that came up when I google Da Lama and his gold:

 27-Dalai Lama, prince of peace?

 Spiritual leaders of other faiths, such as countless Indian gurus,
 Buddhist Lamas, and in particular the famous Dalai Lama, have been
 funded by non-profit corporations of the West and have received,
 since the early 1990's, a wide coverage and marketing through the
 Media.

 Buddhist temples, Stupas and Dharma centres, as well as Indian
 Ashrams and Yoga studios are rapidly spreading everywhere. These
 organizations seem to have an endless supply of money. It would take
 a lot more funds than just donations from devotees to build such an
 amazing network of Centres in such a short time. The hidden agenda of
 such a promotion is to weaken the foundation of the Christian
 stronghold of the Western world.

 I have discovered that "the humble man of Peace", the Dalai Lama, is
 actually very wealthy and paid by the CIA. In fact, this
 non-materialist holy man is the biggest serf owner in Tibet. (Yes,
 Tibet is a feudal society ruled by the Lamas). Legally, he owned the
 whole country and everyone in it. In practice, his family directly
 controlled 27 manors, 36 pastures, 6,170 field serfs and 102 house
 slaves.

 The first time he fled to India in 1950, the Dalai s advisors sent
 several hundred mule-loads of gold and silver bars ahead to secure
 his comfort in exile. After the second time he fled, in 1959, Peking
 Review reported that his family left lots of gold and silver behind,
 plus 20,331 pieces of jewelry and 14,676 pieces of clothing.

 During the fighting, the Dalai Lama fled into exile. This flight is
 portrayed by lamaists as a heroic, even mystical, event. But it is now
 well-documented that the Dalai Lama was whisked away by a CIA covert
 operation. The Dalai Lama's own autobiography admits that his cook
 and radio operator on that trip were CIA agents. The CIA wanted him
 outside of Tibet as a symbol for a contra-style war against the
 Maoist revolution.

Persecution is still persecution.  Just because someone has denounced
you (even if it is true) does not give you justification to unleash
an edict to persecute him when you are in a position of power, when
you're a leader.

This is particularly bad for a monk whose own existence depends
vitally on the compassion of others.

But this is even worse when you're retaliating against someone who
once saved your life, as we mortals have been told.

If that someone were a human, you'd be called an ingrate.  But if that
someone is actually some god or a saint through official canonization,
then do you really think that you can have a battle with the gods in
your human flesh and have your way?

Or are you trying to fool somebody?

You can't honestly believe that you can have your way against the
gods, unless of course you yourself actually do not believe in this
whole rotten scheme crafted in the Tibetan Buddhism that all these
deities you worship and make material contribution to through the
monasteries which "house" them can result in protection and luck for
you and your family!

Tsk, tsk!  Still insist that I support the cause of Dorje Shugden, eh?

You have no ground to say that because first I have never made any
reference to this assertion even if it's true and second I simply
didn't know this at all.

But it shouldn't make any difference whether I'm providing what would
amount to moral support those who are being persecuted.  Persecution
is still persecution.  Just because someone has denounced you (even if
it is true) does not justify you to unleash an edict to persecute him
when you are in a position of power, when you're a leader.

This is particularly bad for a monk whose own existence depends
vitally on the compassion of others.

But this is even worse when you're retaliating against someone who
once saved your life, as we mortals have been told.

If that someone were a human, you'd be called an ingrate.  But if that
someone is actually some god or a saint through official canonization,
then do you really think that you can have a battle with the gods in
your human flesh and have your way?

You can't unless of course you yourself actually do not believe in
this whole rotten scheme crafted in the Tibetan Buddhism that all
these deities you worship and make material contribution to through
the monasteries which "house" them can result in protection and luck
for you and your family!

And by the same logic, you can't retired from being a reincarnated
Buddha unless you don't believe in the rotten scheme of Da Lama being
a reincarnation of the original Buddha who lived some three thousand
years ago in the first place.

So it's all very curious to me that Da Lama of this super-complicated
religious institution should be talking about having retired from his
Da-Lamahood and denouncing a deity who had in his own words saved his
life before, unless of course Da Lama himself doesn't believe in any
of this stuff.

And if so, then Da Lama would have certainly been also fully aware of
the systematic inculcation of fear and superstition into the
rank-and-file believers by the leadership of the religious
institution.  The conclusion is not pretty: Da Lama and the lamas have
committed something no less than a fraud against the masses through
exploitation of their ignorance if all this talk about Da Lama
denouncing a deity which has in his own words saved his life and Da
Lama retiring from Da-Lamahood when he's still living is true.  Da
Lama and the lamas want the masses to believe in something they
themselves obviously do not!  They are using the masses for political
support, to help get them back to power.  How cruel!

So, you're full of shit as usual.

It's obvious that the average Tibetan Buddhists believe in too many
ghosts or deities.  But that doesn't mean that I'm an atheist which is
probably what you intended to say.  But regardless of whether I am an
atheist, I can still see that something with Da Lama and the lamas is
terribly wrong!

1) It's always wrong to be divisive, especially when you're a leader
of a people who don't know a whole lot of what is going on except the
flip-flop of your edicts that they are told they must obey!

2) It's particularly wrong to be divisive when you're a leader of a
homeless people who want to go home and depend on you to lead them
home but you issue edicts which pit one group against another.

3) When you flip-flop on what's right and what's wrong, people
question your authority, your sincerity, your integrity in general.

4) You're an ingrate when you denounce your savior when you no longer
need him.

5) When one preaches compassion, religious freedom, democracy, dialog,
tolerance, and practices the opposite to all these, one is a hypocrite
and a phony.

6) People tend to sympathesize with those who are beaten down.  The
Shugden followers are in a bad state.  People don't have to love Da
Lama's enemy in order to feel for poor guys he is persecuting.  This
is particularly relevant when Da Lama is telling the world to extend
its sympathy toward him and "his people".

How can Da Lama be so mean when he preaches compassion, religious
freedom, democracy, dialog, tolerance!

Of course, anyone with a brain who is kept informed, knows that Da
Lama has a different master than the Buddha.

Da Lama is a stooge for the US government.  He allows himself to be
used for the latter's subversive agenda.

He doesn't care about the Palestinian people and doesn't speak out for
their plight.  He doesn't condemn the warmongers who plunge the world
into chaos.  He didn't speak out when he could and stood by while
hundreds of thousands perished in Iraq.  He continues to remain silent
so that scores of Afghans and Pakistanis continue to be killed daily.
When you have someone so ludicrously insensitive and disingenuous, you
don't have like the CCP to dislike this person.  And just because this
person turns out to be a jackal wearing a sheep's clothing and calls
himself a living Bhudda does not change the story.  Da Lama is still
despicable.

I'm not an atheist.  Nor do I support the "Shugden cause".

It's just that when you see Da Lama willing to let superstition stand
between his people and the Buddha, you say it doesn't make any sense.

I thought to myself:

 He's willing to ditch the Dorje Shugden who he claimed had once saved
 him. He is now persecuting the popular Dorje's followers. What a joke
 to call Da Lama a holy man and even worse, a reincarnated Buddha!

I have enough religious experience to tell a good religious person
from a phony one.

One of Jesus' greatest teachings is: you care for the smallest, the
weakest, the least protected, then you're doing God's work.

In sharp contrast to Tibetan Buddhism in which authority emanates out
in accordance to a strict hierarchy, in which everything has a strict
pecking order like Confucianism which ailed China for thousands of
years until the communists took over China in the middle half of the
last century, Jesus taught egalitarianism where he walked the shore of
the Sea of Galilee among fishermen and broke bread with all kinds of
common people the upper echelon of the Jews despised, including lepers
and prostitutes.  Same way with the man who had prepared Jesus' way
but felt that he wasn't nearly good enough to do so: John the Baptist.

It was for John the Baptist's criticism of the inequity that existed
in Judea then which aroused Herodias' blood lust enough to make her
want John dead.  And so he commanded her daughter Salome to ask her
stepfather Herod the Great to deliver John's head on a silver platter
to her, after an intoxicating performance Salome had given before the
ruler and his guests, which probably included Aulus Vitellius, the
future Roman Emperor (see Gustave Flaubert's story Herodias about
Vitellius).

Da Lama is a symbol of inequity.  Who would have a summer palace in
addition to the 1,000-room palace in Lhasa?  Who would have been so
insensitive to ban the Shugden followers among his Tibetan flock?

The failure of Da Lama, if not that of the complicated Tibetan
Buddhism with its many ghosts, is now clearly why Da Lama and his
theocracy should have no place in a modern functioning society for the
Tibetans.

Da Lama and the lamas belong to the past, just as the Confucianists
who had ruled China for centuries and were buried a few decades ago.

lo yeeOn
========

Da Lama lost because he did not "lead his people"!


author: Tom Jigme Wheat

subject:
Re: Peter (the old Dutch faggot) Turd confirms again that he is a
 China hater, bent on destroying China

text:
spun out again tweaker!!!

On Mar 25, 6:57 am, Anti-DabianchenVirus <[email]>
wrote:


author: Anti-DabianchenVirus

text:
On Mar 25, 9:54 pm, Tom Jigme Wheat <[email]> wrote:

Ha-ha! Your whole life has been NOTHING but wild guesses, wrong
assumptions, and infantile insults at people who don't share your
ignorant views. That is why you needed consolation from an alien
"mystic" who promises a better life than the miserable one you are
living.

Proof that you are a LIAR, Tom Jigme Wheat - nothing you say is of any
value:

On the 17th of February, 2011, you accused me of advocating the
overthrow of American democracy, and "just a loud mouth with a one
inch rice dick":

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.tibet/msg/3535c4db40a0115c?hl=en

I have since then asked you to prove it and you couldn't. All you
could do was beat around the bush and assume:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/555a9caec9d9e24b?hl=en

making further accusations: "that makes you a foreign agent of the CCP
in my book. If your here on a visa it will be soon revoked":

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/f7d716c7958c0743?hl=en
, knowing full-well That I am an American and that I support the
American democracy in the USA:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/8e211f9563fe6443?hl=en
.

On the 5th of March, 2011, you finally admitted:

"I cant prove that you want to see america overthrown"

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/eca9ae060e064bc3?hl=en

You are so dumb that you didn't even know the United States has
different time zones:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/9353ea9cd1e264ba?hl=en

When confronted again, all you could say was "go suck up to your
racist friend house nigger"

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/4da8eea9e620ae9e?hl=en

You yourself have thus proven that you are a LIAR!

Quod erat demonstrandum.


subject:
Re: Da Lama, a CIA/NED Stooge and a Symbol of Iniquity, Failed his
 People:Forget about Da Lama's New Move or rather Da Lama's New Hat

text:
On Mar 25, 2:58 pm, [email] (lo yeeOn) wrote:

where is your evidence that illiteracy rates are higher in tibet than
in the rest of china. You are probably basing your stats on fluency in
mandarin, not tibetan. You have some racist colonial views of
tibetans.
Lobsang sangey is a graduate of harvard law school. shows how little
you know about tibetans beyond racist innuendo.


text:
On Mar 25, 4:35 pm, Tom Jigme Wheat <[email]> wrote:

Ha-ha! Your whole life has been NOTHING but wild guesses, wrong
assumptions, and infantile insults at people who don't share your
ignorant views. That is why you needed consolation from an alien
"mystic" who promises a better life than the miserable one you are
living.

Proof that you are a LIAR, Tom Jigme Wheat - nothing you say is of any
value:

On the 17th of February, 2011, you accused me of advocating the
overthrow of American democracy, and "just a loud mouth with a one
inch rice dick":

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.tibet/msg/3535c4db40a0115c?hl=en

I have since then asked you to prove it and you couldn't. All you
could do was beat around the bush and assume:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/555a9caec9d9e24b?hl=en

making further accusations: "that makes you a foreign agent of the CCP
in my book. If your here on a visa it will be soon revoked":

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/f7d716c7958c0743?hl=en
, knowing full-well That I am an American and that I support the
American democracy in the USA:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/8e211f9563fe6443?hl=en
.

On the 5th of March, 2011, you finally admitted:

"I cant prove that you want to see america overthrown"

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/eca9ae060e064bc3?hl=en

You are so dumb that you didn't even know the United States has
different time zones:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/9353ea9cd1e264ba?hl=en

When confronted again, all you could say was "go suck up to your
racist friend house nigger"

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/4da8eea9e620ae9e?hl=en

You yourself have thus proven that you are a LIAR!

Quod erat demonstrandum.


author: Romaneshti wannabe GREEK !!!!!

subject: Re: Sadistic Sultans of Turkey - Murad IV of Turkey (1612-1640) the Sultan who hated women.

text:
1612-1640

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

Grow up AussieGrikMoose

How's the facial hair ?


text:
It's that Psychomath (sic) post again !

*ROTFFLMFAOAY*

POES !


subject: Re: Uneducated and unfriendly unmanly Turks

text:
NTV/MSNBC - "EP Turkey rapporteur slam Ankara process":

Eurlings said that it was time the European Commission issued a strong
warning to Turkey.

7 April 2005

Turkey was heading in the wrong direction in its bid to gain full
membership
of the European Union, European Parliament Turkey rapporteur, Dutch
parliamentarian Camiel Eurlings said Wednesday.

Speaking to the Dutch ANP news agency Eurlings said that Ankara would
face
major problems in its efforts to join the EU unless it acted quickly.

"If Turkey does not take successful steps in a short period, there can
be
great obstacles formed before negotiations that should be started on
October
3," Eurlings said.

Turkey has started conducting more interrogations of human rights
activists
over the past few months and putting forward new conditions in order to
not
recognise the Greek Cypriot administration, Eurlings said.


author: Chloe

subject:
Sadistic Sultans of Turkey - "Mad" Mustafa I of Turkey (1591-1639)
   the Sultan fetched from the Cage.

text:
When Sultan Ahmed I (1590-1617) came to the throne in 1603, he left his
11-year-old brother Mustafa (1592-1639) in the "Cage", a large building
without windows, and he had a wall built to block the entrance. Mustafa
was possibly already mentally retarded before he was incarcerated and
the psychosocial depravation he experienced in the Cage can only have
worsened his mental condition. He is described as a paranoid, because he
was overwhelmed by fear that he would be deposed or murdered - in itself
no strange behaviour considering his circumstances.

Sultan Ahmed I used to take a different woman to his bed each night,
although he subsequently favoured two women: Hadice and K�sem
(1589-1651). Hadice was the mother of Osman II (1604-1622) and K�sem
gave birth to Murad IV (1612-1640), Bayezid and Mad Ibrahim I
(1615-1648). When Ahmed died of typhus in November 1617 at the age of
28, his most powerful concubine, K�sem, opposed the succession of his
eldest son, Osman, because she was afraid that Osman would execute her
sons. It was due to her influence that the completely insane Mustafa was
released from the Cage and declared Sultan. It was said that he had
visions and some saw in him a holy man. However, it soon became clear
that Mustafa was incapable of governing. He appointed two favourite
young pages as governors of Cairo and Damascus and replaced one of his
high officers by a farmer who had offered him something to drink when he
was out hunting. After only three months, Mustafa was dethroned by the
eunuch corps and again imprisoned in the Cage accompanied by two female
slaves *.

Young Osman II of Turkey Mustafa I was succeeded by Ahmed I's eldest
son, 13-year-old Osman II (to the right). Young Osman was very fond of
archery - especially with living targets, like prisoners-of-war or his
own pages. Before setting out on a military campaign in Poland, Osman
ordered the execution of his brother Mehmed in January 1621. Despite his
youth, Osman soon managed to increase his power, replacing Vezirs and
banishing Mustafa's supporters. He forbade the consumption of wine and
tobacco and had drunken soldiers sent to the galleys as slaves. Also, he
attempted to reform the Janissaries, the Sultan's special elite corps.
He tried to curb their power, because in his opinion they had performed
badly in the Polish campaign. In 1622 Osman announced his intention to
leave the city for a pilgrimage to Mecca. The Janissaries suspected he
had another destination in mind, because he seemed to prepare for taking
his jewels and treasures with him. Enraged they stormed the palace and
captured Osman. They made him ride on a cripple horse amidst the insults
of the crowds before he was locked up in the prison of the Seven Towers.
When they tried to kill him, Osman fought with the strength of a madman
and killed six of his attackers before he was overpowered. Young Osman
was put to death by a combination of strangulation and compression of
his testicles. His ear was cut off and presented to his mother, Hadice,
as an affront. Although fratricide was common in the Ottoman Empire,
this was the first act of regicide.

This time Mustafa refused to leave the Cage or even to open its door. So
the Janissaries made a hole in the Cage's roof. They saw Mustafa sitting
with the two women and they claimed that he was "giggling like an
imbecile". He was severely weakened, because no one had cared to serve
him any food or drink for tree days. After bringing him water, they had
the frightened Sultan hoisted up with curtain cords through the hole in
the roof. Mustafa was placed back on the Turkish throne, although he was
still unable to rule effectively. He executed all  those who had
overthrown his nephew. But later mad Mustafa had forgotten that Osman
was dead and ran in search of him through the palace, knocking on doors
and crying out to his nephew to relieve him from the burden of
sovereignty. Grand Vezirs followed one another in rapid succession and a
donkey driver was appointed as muezzin for the Aya Sofya mosque.
Throughout the realm governors refused to obey orders issued in the
Sultan's name or send taxes to Istanbul. Soon the Janissaries, who could
not be paid, began rebelling. In August 1623 the eunuch corps
intervened, when Mustafa ordered the execution of his late brother
Ahmed's other sons. The Grand Mufti stated that nobody who was mentally
unbalanced could ever execute the duties of Sultan. Mustafa renounced
his throne in favour of his nephew, Murad IV. This time Mustafa remained
in the Cage until he died at the age of 47.

Copyright � 1997-2000 by J.N.W. Bos. All rights reserved.

Topkapi Palace Topkapi Palace
the Topkapi Palace
Footnotes

       * It was said that Mustafa despised women.

Bibliography

     * Coco, C.: Secrets of the harem, Philip Wilson, 1997
     * Barber, N.: De Sultans, English title: Lords of the Golden Horn,
Fibula-Van Dishoeck, 1975
     * Dedeoglu, A.: The Ottomans, Osmanli Yayinevi, 1982
     * Freely, J.: Istanbul (The Imperial City), Viking, 1996
     * Lytle Croutier, A.: Harem (The world behind the veil), Abbeville
Press, 1989
     * Kinross, L.: The Ottoman Centuries (The Rise and Fall of the
Turkish Empire), Morrow Quill Paperbacks, 1977
     * Inalcik, H.: The Ottoman Empire (The classical age 1300-1600),
Phoenix, 1988
     * Mansel, Ph.: Constantinople (City of the World's Desire,
1453-1924), John Murray, 1996
     * Penzer, N.M.: The Harem (an account of the institution as it
existed in the Palace of the Turkish Sultans...), Spring Books, 1967
     * Blandford, N. & Jones, B.: (The world's most) Evil men, Hamlyn, 1996
     * Aksit, I.: Topkapi Palace, Aksit K�lt�r Turizm, 1997

Last modified: Sun, 06 Jan 2002. Content: Joan Bos. Design: Klaas
Vermaas. Info: FAQ.


author: amin dada

text:
"Romaneshti wannabe GREEK !!!!!" <[email]>
news:[email]...

sean is a tiurk.
tiurks speek only bad language =>
tiurks r uneducatos y sotosvilupados
u feckin tiurk anemal.
u r talkin alon.
u r mad.
u r Al Qaeda creminal lik all
tiurks.
tiurks r islamistas teroristas.
no eu 4 u tiurk anemals
tiurks r barbaros.
tiurks only speek die die die,kil kil kil.
tiurks r
anemales savaj.
tiurks r rasistas y fasistas


author: Panta Rhei

text:
Romaneshti wannabe GREEK !!!!! writes:

Yep, see, above, another example of Beanie Tinfoil's deteriorated Turkish
state of mind!

Yes, "1612-1640" is FUNNY! Makes Weenie Beanie laugh. Even numbers can make
Weenie Beanie laugh. Anyone surprised? I guess not. LMAO!


text:
Romaneshti wannabe GREEK !!!!! writes:

So glad you don't disagree with the rest of that description of you Beanie
Tinfoil, the Turkish wannabe Shriek!!!!


subject: If Turkey Joins EU, so does Algeria want to, who's next? Mozambique?

text:
http://www.zaman.org/?bl=international&alt=&hn=18383

The government of Algeria requested at the meeting that during the
European Union (EU) membership process that Turkey "should not reduce
their relations with their neighbors". Buteflika expressed his
satisfaction with Turkey's EU bid by saying; "Your presence in the EU
means our presence." The Algerian President demanded support from Gul
about "being involved in the security shield of NATO". Reporting
Turkey's positive attitude towards this subject Gul in return demanded
Algerian support for Turkey's temporary membership to the UN Security
Council. "We will lobby for you," said the Algerian leader and
underlined the fact that his country is a temporary member already, and
noted that they will protect the rights of Turkey including Cyprus.
"Pakistan defended our law when it was a Security Council member
regarding the Cyprus issue. Now we expect you to defend us," Minister
Gul said.


subject:
Sadistic Sultans of Turkey - "Mad" Ibrahim I of Turkey (1615-1648)
   the Sultan who drowned his entire harem.

text:
[email] wrote:

As an infant Ibrahim "The Mad" (1616-1648) had been locked up in the
Cage and ever since he had been living in fear of death. The Sultans
Osman II (1604-1622) and Murad IV (1612-1640) had executed all their
brothers - except Ibrahim. In 1640 Murad actually ordered Ibrahim's
death on his deathbed, because he thought it better for the dynasty to
end rather than continue with 'insane seed'. But their mother, Sultana
K�sem, intervened. Nevertheless, when a crowd tried to enter the Cage to
proclaim him Sultan, Ibrahim was so terrified that he barred the door.
He was convinced that his cruel brother was playing a trick to torment
him and refused to come out until his brother's corpse had been brought
before him. Even then his mother had to "coax him out as if cajoling a
frightened kitten with food". When he had finally left the Cage, Ibrahim
began dancing through the harem, while screaming: "The butcher of the
Empire is dead!".

Seeking compensation for his lost years, 23-year-old Ibrahim indulged in
an urge for debauchery. Sultana K�sem was happy to reign in her son's
place, so she took care of an endless supply of virgins and fat women
for his pleasure. Ibrahim was frequently impotent so his mother supplied
him with aphrodisiacs, too. Ibrahim preferred women he could not have
and found it difficult to make love to slave-girls, who were not in a
position to refuse him anything. Dimitri Cantemir of Moldavia wrote: "In
the palace gardens he frequently assembled all the virgins, made them
strip themselves naked, and neighing like a stallion ran amongst them
and as it were ravished one or the other, kicking or struggling by his
order". When Ibrahim met the beautiful daughter of the grand mufti,
Turkey's highest religious leader, he asked him for her hand in
marriage. The mufti, aware of the debaucheries in the harem, advised his
daughter to refuse the proposal. Ibrahim was enraged and had the girl
followed and kidnapped. He ravaged her for a couple of days and then
sent her back to her father. Another time Ibrahim treatened to stuff his
Grand Vezir with straw unless he recovered presents given by previous
Sultans to the shrine at Medina.

Mad Ibrahim of Turkey In 1641 one of Ibrahim's concubines, Turhan Hadice
(1627-1682), gave birth to his first son, Prince Mehmed (1642-1687).
Shortly before the birth, Ibrahim acquired a slave girl who accidentally
happened to be pregnant. After the birth she was employed as a  wet
nurse for the little Prince and so she moved into the Royal harem with
her own son. The Sultan was so taken with the healthy and robust little
boy - a contrast with his own fragile and sickly son - that he spent a
lot of time with him. When Turhan Hadice complained, Ibrahim had one of
his rages; he tore his son from his mother's arms and threw him into the
pool. Luckily, Mehmed survived. Three months after Mehmed's birth
another concubine gave birth to Ibrahim's second son, S�leyman
(1642-1691). More sons soon followed. In 1645 Ibrahim betrothed his
3-year old daughter Fatima to Kapudan Yusuf Pasha *, but he had him
executed within a year.

The shops of jewellers and European merchants were pillaged to satisfy
Ibrahim's whims and tastes of the moment. Ibrahim used to drench his
beard, clothes and room hangings with perfumes, especially the exotic
ambergris. He had a fetish for furs: his clothes, curtains and walls
were all decorated with fur. His pillows were stuffed with it and he had
a preference for making love on sable skins. Ibrahim collected books
expressing the various ways of coition and he was said to have invented
some new and previously unknown positions himself. Once, Ibrahim
happened to see the private parts of a wild young cow and according to
Cantemir, "he sent the shape of them in gold all over the Empire with
orders to make enquiries whether a woman made in just that manner could
be found for his lust". A woman fitting the description was found in
Armenia and she was received into the harem. Her name was Sechir Para
("Sugar Cube") and she weighed around 150 kilograms. Ibrahim became
madly infatuated with her.

One day Sechir Para told Ibrahim about a rumour that one of his
concubines was "compromised by an outsider", but she didn't know any
details, like the girl's name. Ibrahim promptly raged for three days.
When his son Mehmed made a joke that Ibrahim didn't like, he took his
dagger and thrust it in his little son's face. Mehmed was to carry the
resulting scar on his forehead until the end of his life. The chief
black eunuch, the most powerful man after the Grand Vezir, tried to find
the identity of the concubine by torturing some of the harem girls, but
he was not provided with a name. Then Ibrahim decided to have his entire
harem of 280 women thrown into the Bosporus, tied up in weighted sacks.
Sechir Para and Turhan Hadice were spared. Only one other girl survived,
because her sack had not been sufficiently tied up. She was dragged out
of the water by the crew of a French ship. Eventually Sultana K�sem
became jealous of Sechir Para's influence and one day she invited the
woman to dinner and had her strangled. She told the inconsolable Ibrahim
that the woman "had died suddenly of a powerful illness".

In the provinces the custodians of public property turned into feudal
lords. Offices were sold to the highest bidder or given to favourites,
taxes were increased and every resource possible was drained to supply
the demands of the Sultan's excesses. Ibrahim was indifferent to the
chaotic situation in his country and his insane behaviour alienated all
political fractions. But the birth of his sons had made Ibrahim
replaceable. In 1648 the Janissaries revolted because they were paid
poorly or not at all. They cut up the body of the Grand Vezir and sold
it in the street. Then the grand mufti decided to take revenge for the
deflowering of his daughter by sanctioning a coup. When Ibrahim asked
him: "Did I not appoint you to this high office?", he replied: "No, God
appointed me." Thus Ibrahim was deposed and put back in the Cage.
Confined once again, he became a raving lunatic. Despite the thick
walls, his cries could be heard day and night. A week after losing his
throne, the executioners entered the cage. With the Koran in his hand,
Ibrahim cried out: "Behold! God's book! By what writ shall you murder
me?" and "Is there no one among those who have eaten my bread who will
take pity on me and protect me? These cruel men have come to kill me.
Mercy! Mercy!" Nevertheless, he was strangled with a bowstring and
buried in the Haghia Sophia Mosque beside Mad Mustafa.

Abd�lkadir Dedeoglu claims that Ibrahim was by no means out of his mind
and that the rumours about his insanity were spread by his assassins in
an attempt to justify their deeds. Still, Ibrahim was an eccentric and
his liability to sudden bouts of intense violence and his boundless
indulgence in debauchery indicate that he suffered from some kind of
personality disorder. He spent his childhood and adolescent life in
solitary confinement in the Cage, while his brothers Osman II, Mehmed,
S�leyman and Bayezid met violent deaths. Growing up in fear of death
will surely have marked his personality. In addition, Ibrahim suffered
from chronic headaches all his life.

Copyright � 1997-2000 by J.N.W. Bos. All rights reserved.
Footnotes

       * The husbands of Ottoman Princesses, the leading pashas of the
day, were considered the slaves of their wives. On the wedding night the
husband, when or if admitted to his wife's bedroom, dared to approach
her only from the bottom of her bed. To remove potential rivals to the
Sultan, after 1607 Princesses' children were generally killed at birth.

Bibliography

     * Coco, C.: Secrets of the harem, Philip Wilson, 1997
     * Barber, N.: De Sultans, English title: Lords of the Golden Horn,
Fibula-Van Dishoeck, 1975
     * Dedeoglu, A.: The Ottomans, Osmanli Yayinevi, 1982
     * Freely, J.: Istanbul (The Imperial City), Viking, 1996
     * Lytle Croutier, A.: Harem (The world behind the veil), Abbeville
Press, 1989
     * Kinross, L.: The Ottoman Centuries (The Rise and Fall of the
Turkish Empire), Morrow Quill Paperbacks, 1977
     * Inalcik, H.: The Ottoman Empire (The classical age 1300-1600),
Phoenix, 1988
     * Mansel, Ph.: Constantinople (City of the World's Desire,
1453-1924), John Murray, 1996
     * Palmer, A.: The decline and fall of the Ottoman Empire, John
Murray, 1993
     * Penzer, N.M.: The Harem (an account of the institution as it
existed in the Palace of the Turkish Sultans...), Spring Books, 1967
     * Randall, D.: Royal Follies (A chronicle of royal misbehavior),
Sterling Publishing, 1988
     * Blandford, N. & Jones, B.: (The world's most) Evil men, Hamlyn, 1996
     * Zacks, R.: History laid bare (Love, sex, and perversity from the
ancient Etruscans to Warren G. Harding), Harper Collins, 1994
     * Aksit, I.: Topkapi Palace, Aksit K�lt�r Turizm, 1997
     * Treptow, K.W. (ed.): A history of Romania, East European
Monographs, Columbia University Press, 1996
     * Burke's Royal Families of the World (Europe and Latin America)


author: Timothy Sutter

subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
in fact, it was 'ok'

until i put the scratch onnit

and now it's =PERFECT=

now it's mine...


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Lady Gargoyle

text:
On Sep 16, 11:36 pm, "[email]"
<[email]> wrote:

I just noticed the Lady Gargoyle. I bear a closer resemblance to mush.
What was that language you were typing? Hawaiian?


subject: Re: Lady Gargoyle

text:
On Sep 16, 11:39 pm, "[email]"
<[email]> wrote:

_______________________

You are so exasperating! Did you know that?


subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
On Sep 10, 8:10 am, Timothy Sutter <[email]> wrote:

_______________________
The last 2 boxes were beautiful. Like a poem.


subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
On Sep 11, 4:57 am, Timothy Sutter <[email]> wrote:

______________________________
I didn't mean to send you into calendar mode. Here's a pretty song for
u.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In7enKVo2xo&feature=fvw


subject: Re: hoki ki a ratou

text:
On Sep 11, 3:47 pm, Timothy Sutter <[email]> wrote:

_______________________
Charlie who? What does all that stuff in another language mean? What
language is it?
Who is it addressed to? Does it ever occur to you that oftentimes
there is no way people could possibly know what you're talking about?
Do you care? Is it arrogance that makes you evade questions, or simply
that you are thinking about something else?


subject: Re: hoki ki a ratou

text:
On Sep 12, 10:08 am, "[email]"
<[email]> wrote:

____________________________
I can't keep writing to you without you ever replying. It hurts my
feelings. I guess when people are crazy it's really true that they
don't know it, even in spite of all the evidence, which you, yourself,
have provided. You used to at least acknowledge things. Like tell me
how you wouldn't be hurt if I never spoke to you again & really ego-
boosting things like that.


subject: Re: Lady Gargoyle

text:
On Sep 16, 5:14 am, Timothy Sutter <[email]> wrote:

_____________________
Indeed. Why was I not? Thanx for saying something. :)


subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
of course, some things get all scratched up

-without- my help, and sometimes, that's

the stuff that just happens to gravitate

to my little dump...


subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
oftentimes, the scratches are already there

before they appear

and you can practically see and hear them

and then they blossom

and the beauty is revealed

but some simply -won't- see it

and they try to fix what -ain't- broke...


subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
16

    January          February          March            April

 N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5
 6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10
11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15
 M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20
21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25
26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30

    May                June            July            August

 N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5
 6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10
11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15
 M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20
21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25
26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30

  Septermber         October          November        December

 N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5   N  2  3  4  5
 6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10   6  7  Q  9 10
11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15  11 12 13 14 15
 M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20   M 17 18 19 20
21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25  21 22  Q 24 25
26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30  26 27 28 29 30
                                                 N 32 33 34 35

17

    January          February          March            April

 1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10
 M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15
16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20
21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25
 N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30

    May                June            July            August

 1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10
 M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15
16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20
21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25
 N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30

  Septermber         October          November        December

 1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5   1  2  Q  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10   6  7  8  9 10
 M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15   M 12 13 14 15
16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20  16 17  Q 19 20
21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25  21 22 23 24 25
 N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30   N 27 28 29 30
                                                31 32  Q 34 35

18

    January          February          March            April

 1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5
 M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10
11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15
16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20
 N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25
26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30

    May                June            July            August

 1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5
 M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10
11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15
16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20
 N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25
26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30

  Septermber         October          November        December

 1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5    1  2  3  4  5
 M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10    M  7  8  9 10
11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15   11 12  Q 14 15
16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20   16 17 18 19 20
 N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25    N 22 23 24 25
26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30   26 27  Q 29 30
                                                   31 32 33 34 35

19

    January          February          March            April

 M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5
 6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10
11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15
 N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20
21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25
26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30

    May                June            July            August

 M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5
 6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10
11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15
 N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20
21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25
26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30

  Septermber         October          November        December

 M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5    M  2  3  4  5
 6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10    6  7  Q  9 10
11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15   11 12 13 14 15
 N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20    N 17 18 19 20
21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25   21 22  Q 24 25
26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30   26 27 28 29 30
                                                    M 32 33 34 35


subject: Re: if it wasn't...

text:
ï¿½if it wasn't all scratched up
 it wouldn't be mine...
 that's how i know it's mine
 it's all scratched up...

ï¿½
 in fact, it was 'ok'
 until i put the scratch onnit
 and now it's =PERFECT=
 now it's mine...

ï¿½
 of course, some things get all scratched up
 -without- my help, and sometimes, that's
 the stuff that just happens to gravitate
 to my little dump...

 microcosm

 oftentimes, the scratches are already there
 before they appear
 and you can practically see and hear them
 and then they blossom
 and the beauty is revealed
 but some simply -won't- see it
 and they try to fix what -ain't- broke...

ï¿½
 sometimes, the wounding -is- the healing...

ï¿½

ï¿½

ï¿½

ï¿½

ï¿½


subject: hoki ki a ratou

text:
A ka whakatangi te rima o nga anahera,
a ka kite ahau i tetahi whetu no te rangi
 kua taka iho ki te whenua: a ka hoatu ki
a ia te ki o te poka torere.

A uakina ana e ia te poka torere;
a ka puta ake he paoa i te poka, ano he paoa
no tetahi kapura nui; a pouri iho te ra me
te rangi i te paoa o te poka.

A ka puta mai i te paoa he mawhitiwhiti
ki runga ki te whenua; i hoatu hoki ki
a ratou he kaha, he pera me te kaha
o nga kopiona o te whenua.

I korerotia hoki ki a ratou kia kaua
e kino i a ratou te tarutaru o te whenua,
tetahi mea matomato ranei, tetahi rakau
ranei; ko nga tangata anake kahore nei
te hiri a te Atua i o ratou rae.


subject: Re: hoki ki a ratou

text:
I tukua ano hoki ki a ratou kia kaua e whakamate
i era, engari me whakamamae kia rima ra ano nga
marama: a ko ta ratou whakamamae kia pera me
te whakamamae a te kopiona, ina wero
i te tangata.

A i aua ra tera nga tangata e rapu i te mate,
a e kore rawa e kitea; e hiahia ano ratou
kia mate, heoi ka oma te mate i a ratou.

Na ko te waihanga o nga mawhitiwhiti rite
tonu ki nga hoiho kua oti te whakanoho
mo te pakanga: a i runga i o ratou
matenga he mea e rite ana ki nga
karauna koura, a ko o ratou kanohi
ano he kanohi tangata.

He makawe ano to ratou rite tonu ki te
makawe wahine, ko o ratou niho me
te mea no te raiona.


subject: Re: hoki ki a ratou

text:
He pukupuku hoki o ratou, ano he pukupuku rino;
a ko te haruru o o ratou pakau, ano ko te haruru
o nga hariata, o nga hoiho maha e rere ana
ki te tatauranga.

He hiku o ratou pera i o nga kopiona,
he wero hoki: a kei o ratou hiku to
ratou kaha ki te whakamamae tangata
mo nga marama e rima.

He kingi ano to ratou, ko te anahera
o te poka torere; ko tona ingoa i te
reo Hiperu ko Aparona, a i te reo
Kariki ko Aporiona tona ingoa.

Kua pahemo te tuatahi o nga aue;
na e rua ake nga aue kei te haere
mai i muri.

Na ka whakatangi te ono o nga anahera,
a ka rongo ahau ki tetahi reo, e ahu mai
ana i nga haona e wha o te aata koura
i te aroaro o te Atua,

E mea ana ki te ono o nga anahera,
kei a ia nei te tetere, Wetekina nga
anahera tokowha e here ra i te
awa nui, i Uparati.

Na ka wetekina aua anahera tokowha,
kua noho rite noa ake nei mo te haora,
me te ra, me te marama, me te tau,
e whakamate ai ratou i te wahi
tuatoru o nga tangata.


subject: Re: hoki ki a ratou

text:
A ko te tokomaha o nga taua o nga hoia
eke hoiho e rua tekau mano nga tekau mano;
i rongo hoki ahau ki to ratou tokomaha.

Ko taku tenei i kite ai i ahau
e titiro matakite ana, ko nga hoiho
me nga kainoho i runga he pukupuku
o ratou, ano he ahi, he hakiniti,
he whanariki: na, ko nga upoko
o nga hoiho, ano he upoko raiona;
e puta mai ana hoki i o ratou
mangai he kapu ra, he paoa,
he whanariki.

Na enei mate e toru i patu te wahi
tuatoru o nga tangata, na te kapura,
na te paoa, na te whanariki, i puta
mai i o ratou mangai.

Ko te kaha hoki o nga hoiho kei o ratou mangai,
kei o ratou waero: ko o ratou waero koia ano
kei te nakahi, he upoko o ratou; ko
a ratou mea tukino enei.

Na, ko era atu tangata, kihai nei i whakamatea
e enei mate, kahore ratou i ripeneta ki nga mahi
a o ratou ringaringa, kihai hoki i mutu to ratou
koropiko ki nga rewera, ki nga whakapakoko koura,
hiriwa, parahi, kohatu, rakau ranei; ki nga mea
ka hore nei e kite, kahore e rongo,
kahore e haereere:

Kahore ano hoki ratou i ripeneta ki a ratou kohuru,
ki a ratou mahi makutu, ki a ratou moepuku,
ki a ratou tahae.


subject: Re: hoki ki a ratou

text:
after much deliberation; [on my part]

"charlie accomplished murder"

is about all there is to it

might as well lay it to rest.

meaningless useless murder

RIP


subject: Re: usual suspect announces he is a latent homosexual

text:
Derek wrote:

could he be anything else after hangin' out with Goobernicus and etter
for so long?


author: Derek

text:
On 30 Jul 2005 10:31:40 -0700, [email] wrote:

A philosophical question; if Jon clattered to the floor
clutching his chest during a heart attack in an empty
house, would he make any noise?


text:
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:55:19 -0700, "Dutch" <[email]> wrote:

Dutch - go away.


author: Dutch

text:
"Derek" <[email]> wrote

Good to have you back Derek, we can never have too much
evidence of the foolish irrationality of vegans.


author: Beach Runner

text:
Dutch wrote:

First as accusing my previously athletic son, I don't think it fair to
accuse Unusual Suspects of being a homo sexual.  I think he just used it
as a method of attacking someone.

Mean spirited, yes, perhaps fear of homosexuals, but a blanket insult is
  wrong.

Bob


author: nikolai kingsley

subject: Beijing smog why

text:
Great Sage Equal of Heaven - Aware-of-Vacuity - is displeased and has
descended on his cloud.


author: Rohan Hawthorne

subject: Re: Beijing smog why

text:
"nikolai kingsley" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I'm boycotting the olympics.  Free Tibet!

Rohan.


author: Ace Lightning

subject: Re: Beijing smog why

text:
nikolai kingsley wrote:

and let out an enormous fart, from eating all that fruit...


author: rickthecockroach

subject: Re: Beijing smog why

text:
nikolai kingsley wrote:

There are steps that creak, and those that crumble. There are empty
rooms, and rooms that live. There are Heavens filled with waste, and
Heavens unexplored.

The last few steps fade into the ether.

***


author: Zelda Rottencrotch

subject: Re: Beijing smog why

text:
Rohan Hawthorne wrote:
I'm boycotting the  Special olympics. free ro!!!

b


subject: Re: Beijing smog why

text:
then Jackie Chan kicked the shit out of the evil warlord's army,
barehanded. i wish i could remember the name of that film.


subject: Re: Beijing smog why

text:
nikolai kingsley wrote:

the world's oldest recorded joke is a fart joke:

Something which has never occurred since time immemorial: a young
woman did not fart in her husband's lap
(1900 BC ï¿½ 1600 BC Sumerian Proverb Collection 1.12-1.13)

(collection of the oldest known jokes at
http:// www.dave-tv.co.uk)


author: Sir Marksman

subject: Re: Dishonest, LYING, HATEMONGER "craig chilton" is trying DESPERATELY to cover up the TRUTH.

text:
HATEMONGER "Craig Chilton" <[email]>  became so enraged, he
started posting replies from OTHER posts to this one!

ROFLMAO!!!


author: Craig Chilton -- On 1/20/09, it'll be BYE-BYE Bushie! Then, GOOD RIDDANCE!

text:
[[[  READERS:  The actual and original subject
       header for this was:

         "Sir Marksman" has an obvious **aversion** to
         relevant FACTS, Maturity, & telling the TRUTH.  ]]]

<Anonymous coward, "Sir Marksman's" SWILL flushed>

     If you look at the responses he makes to me, and to other
egalitarian defenders of civil & personal liberties, and human
rights, and compare those to the posts BY the egalitarians, a
pattern quickly will emerge for you (UNLESS you are a hateful
and ignorant bigot of his ilk) ---

    He almost ALWAYS lies.  The truth appears to be ALIEN
to him.

    He NEVER makes sense.

    He doesn't give a rat's ass for PEOPLE and their rights.

    He is irrationally bigoted toward HARMLESS liberties.

    He immaturely is dedicated to responding mindlessly and
lyingly to posts that prove him to be a total fool... and in the
process succeeds only in making MORE of a fool of himself.

    He wouldn't know a relevant FACT if he tripped over it.  I have
yet to EVER see him provide so much as ONE single FACT that
could be used as a relevant argument against the two liberties
that he irrationally and hatefully opposes the most.  (I.e., the
right of women NOT to be **forced** to gestate to term against
their will... and the 100% harmless marriage of same-sex couples.)

    Meanwhile, sensible and fair-minded egalitarians regularly post
an abundance of relevant facts that SUPPORT those human rights.

    In short, the cravenly-cowardly anonymous loon calling himself
"Sir Marksman" ha NOTHING going for him, and is nothing more
than a bitter, hateful, lying, irrational, sociopathic and immature...
LOSER with a capital "L."

    For the proof, just look at his response posts... and the posts of
those TO WHOM he responds with such mindless arrogance and
stupidity.  And see whose posts are factual and truthful... and
whose posts are specious, untruthful, hateful, and childish.

    Honest and intelligent people will immediately see that he is
EXACTLY as I described him, above.

          -- Craig Chilton  <[email]>


text:
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 23:34:57 GMT,
Hateful Retard, "Sir Marksman"
<LYING-and-FORGED@E-mail-address-deleted> wrote:

     You mean the way that YOU've been posting your hateful
and lying Anti-Choice SWILL to totally unrelated threads?

     Once again. you prove YOURSELF the fool.

     No suprise, because I've never once ever seen you play
any other role.  You're one of the DUMBEST retards in Usenet --
and you just keep right on **proving** that to everyone.

          -- Craig Chilton  <[email]>


author: Frederick Williams

subject: "Die beiden Grundprobleme der Erkenntnistheorie" in English?

text:
Has Popper's "Die beiden Grundprobleme der Erkenntnistheorie" been
published in English?  If so I'll be jolly grateful if someone can
furnish me with title, publisher and ISBN.

Thanks.


subject: Re: "Die beiden Grundprobleme der Erkenntnistheorie" in English?

text:
Frederick Williams wrote:

"The two fundamental problems of the theory of knowledge", Routledge,
978-0-415-39431-4.


author: Sonya Sez

text:
Me, mein is das Lord Peter Wimsey is bein mein liebin  lipschitz und das
schmelting mein hart ein dis menny menny years. Dis Herr Lord Peter W,
is das mein Schlitz mit kraut 'n sausage .   Und dis Herr ne sprechen de
doige.
..aul veder schtain


author: Re-elect Gore in 2004

subject: Biosociopathy restraints:  WWF Urges Governments to Stamp Out Domestic Ivory Markets

text:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200210090276.html

WWF Urges Governments to Stamp Out Domestic Ivory Markets
The East African (Nairobi)
October 7, 2002
Posted to the web October 9, 2002

FOLLOWING THE release of new reports highlighting the existence of a
significant ongoing illegal trade in ivory, WWF, the conservation
organisation, has called on governments to clamp down on domestic
ivory markets for elephant products.

The reports, released in Geneva on Friday by the Elephant Trade
Information System (ETIS) established by the Convention on
International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora
(Cites) and managed by Traffic, the wildlife trade monitoring network
of WWF and IUCN say there is a correlation between the presence of
large-scale, unregulated domestic ivory markets in several countries
and the illegal international trade in ivory.

They also underline that the four most important countries found to be
sources or destinations for large volumes of illegal ivory are China,
Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Thailand. Other key
players include Cameroon, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Uganda.

"These domestic markets are driving the poaching of thousands of
elephants each year, both in Africa and Asia," said Dr Susan
Lieberman, the director of WWF's Species Programme.

The release of the Traffic reports comes as governments prepare for
the 12th Cites meeting between November 3 and 15 in Santiago, Chile.
While Cites does not regulate domestic markets, WWF said that there
was nonetheless a series of steps governments should take to reduce
the threats to elephant populations.


author: Bruce Burhans

subject: Re: Biosociopathy restraints:  WWF Urges Governments to Stamp Out Domestic Ivory Markets

text:
"Re-elect Gore in 2004" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

    All you do is whine and bitch and point fingers
at people who live just like you do, and are no
more responsible for the current state of affairs than you are.
    Why don't you put your brains to some positive
use and offer some solutions?

Bruce<+>


author: Grow Some Brains

text:
"Bruce Burhans" <[email]> wrote in message news:<sT_p9.26286$[email]>...

I posted a news report. Your complaint should be addressed to
the authors/publishers of the news report. You should GROW SOME
BRAINS sufficient to distinguish between the messenge and the
messenger.

You have not demonstrated a positive example yourself. Why is
your advice poorly so thought-out that even YOU are NOT convinced
that YOUR ADVICE is good to follow?

And why are you such a whinning crybaby?

Pointing out many examples of BIOSOCIOPATHY, so that it is
instantly diagnosable, is a positive action, and explaining
the necessity of the DEATH PENALTY for biosociopathic actions
is a solution. The DEAD do not attack the BIOSPHERE. It is
100% cure for the problem. Your alternate solutions are
eagerly awaited.

_Lion_Kuntz_
http://LionKuntz.com


author: Allen W. Sherzer

subject: One Small Step for a Space Activist... Vol 3 No 9

text:
One Small Step for a Space Activist...
                             By
                  Allen Sherzer & Tim Kyger

There is an old saying in Mexico: What cannot be remedied
must be endured. With the July House appropriations vote and
with the retirement of Rep. Traxler (D-MI) it looks like Space
Station Freedom is out of remedy mode and into endure mode.
With all its flaws and costs it looks like Freedom WILL be
built (in some form anyway). At the same time, Freedom's huge
costs will consume the funds needed to go back to the Moon
and on to Mars. How can we endure this?

On the plus side, station supply will mean placing a lot of
mass into LEO, and this could make the market for launch
services a LOT bigger, which could help reduce launch
costs. But the way things currently are, NASA intends to use
only the Shuttle (with its high cost) for resupply. Not only
will this deny the advantages of a larger market but it will
add huge costs to the Station life cycle.

If a way to resupply Freedom could be found which didn't
require Shuttle, the payback would be enormous. Not only
would the larger launch markets lower costs, but non-Shuttle
based resupply could mean that the entire Shuttle program
can be phased out, freeing up roughly three BILLION every year.

So what do we need to do? We need to: 1)Fly about 160,000
pounds of supplies and experiments up and about 50,000
pounds back down (returned cargo will need low-G return);
2)Fly four crew to and from Freedom four times a year; and
3)An Orbital Transfer Vehicle needed to transport payloads
to Freedom (this is needed since we are eliminating
Shuttle).

A heavy lift vehicle would be one way to meet requirement one.
such an HLV would lift 100,000 pounds to Freedom orbit and would
carry a reusable logistics module. The logistics module would
have an aerodynamic shape (perhaps like DC-Y or an Apollo
capsule) and be capable of returning 20,000 pounds to Earth.

Such an HLV should be a commercial procurement where the
government buys launch services only (as required by current
federal law). Two candidates are Heavy Lift Delta (see One
Small Step... Vol. 2 No 2) and Titan V (see One Small
Step... Vol. 2 No 3). Both manufacturers have already offered
to sell launch services for either vehicle for less than $200
million per launch (including development costs).

The reusable Logistics Module is harder to cost out since it
doesn't exist yet. However similar efforts have costed out
around $3 billion for development; we'll toss in an extra
$100M per flight for recurring costs. At four flights per
year and amortizing development over ten years we get a cost
of about $200M per flight (including interest).

Meeting requirement 2 is easy: we can use a Russian Soyuz-TM
launched on an Atlas or Titan vehicle. All the components
exist today and have been used extensively. The only thing
which hasn't been done is integration of Soyuz on a US
launcher but since launcher/payload interfaces haven't been
standardized this should pose no serious problems. In
quantity, Atlas launches can be had for about $60 million
plus 20 million each for Soyuz. Observant readers will also
note that this eliminates the ACRV problem.

Finally, we need an Orbital Transfer Vehicle (OTV) to move
payloads to Freedom. This capability is not strictly needed
and will be rarely used but will allow us to phase out
Shuttle. This vehicle has already been costed at $3 billion
to develop.

This gives us the following costs for each year:

1. Atlas Soyuz launches (8 @ 80M each): $640M

2. Logistics modules (4 @ 200M each)  :  $800M

3. Heavy Lift Vehicles (4 @ 200M each)  :  $800M

4. Orbital Transfer Vehicle (1 @ 300M)  :  $300M

All this adds up to $2,540 million per year, which is about
half the cost of maintaining Shuttle. Using this approach would
therefore save us all about $2,500 million per year. In addition,
since it uses multiple launch vehicles with backups for every
launcher, it could be even more reliable than Shuttle.

So where does the money to develop all this come from? The answer
lies with the public sector. Many of the components needed are
available today. Contractors have already offered to build the HLVs
themselves if the government will agree to buy them. All we need do
is allow Freedom to provide the market and they will come.

                     Legislative Roundup

                            SSTO/SSRT
Sources say that Senator Pete Domenenici (R-NM) has recently
been briefed on SSRT and emerged an enthusiastic supporter.
The Senator is on the Appropriations Committee and is the
ranking Republican on the Budget Committee. He could be a
powerful ally.

The next vote is the Senate Appropriations Committee's Defense
Subcommittee currently expected for September 14. We need to get
letters to every Senator before then.

                      Commercial Space
The full House has voted on and passed the Omnibus Commercial Space
Act. However action by the Senate is looking less and less likely.

                       NSS Petition Drive
NSS has endorsed Dr. Zubrin's petition calling on the next president
to devote serious effort to SEI. Watch this space for progress reports.