author: David P.

subject: Need to legalize drugs, Stupid!

text:
In Juarez drug war, priest is on front lines

By Nick Valencia, CNN, Feb 3, 2010

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

* For Hesiquio Trevizo, fear of violence permeates his
  work and church
* Trevizo: "None of us are entirely safe from organized
  crime. Not even priests."
* He closes the doors to his church earlier; church offices
  are dead-bolted shut
* Juarez bishop: Drug traffickers don't want to take risk
  of confessions being repeated

(CNN)--For most of his 70 years, Hesiquio Trevizo has been
a man of good will, preaching the word of God. These days,
the Roman Catholic priest is a self-described capitan de la
guerra -- a war veteran.  That he should feel so within the
confines of the sanctuary tells all about the violence and
pervasive fear that have gripped the border city of Ciudad
Juarez.  "None of us are entirely safe from organized crime.
Not even priests," Trevizo says.  He laughs, awkwardly.
Trepidation leaks out with every word.  Perhaps the most
important aspect of his job as priest makes him a potential
target for organized crime. Criminals know grisly details of
violence have spilled out in the privacy of the confessional,
& crime bosses would rather not have those details repeated
or remembered.
[...]
Juarez was once a city where innocents were safe, but that
memory is fading fast. Even those who aren't aligned with
the drug trade have been targeted, among them priests. They
were once revered in Mexican communities, but a collar isn't
protection anymore in the violent clashes over territory &
power.  Trevizo, who ought to fear nothing, watches his back.
He agreed to be interviewed by CNN, but balked at being
photographed or even having a photo of his church published,
citing safety concerns.  Suspicions dictate his decisions.
He closes the doors to his church earlier. At Sunday Mass,
he asks parishioners to enter through a specific door rather
than flock in from every direction. The church offices are
dead-bolted shut.  The paralysis-like atmosphere spills onto
the streets, shops & residences of Juarez, where incredulous
people peep through window blinds and seemingly creep by in
the streets.

Many residents escape from populated parts of town during
the day and often stay home after dusk. Life goes on amid
the violence, and added precautions are taken in stride.
Sometimes, Trevizo wonders who among his flock might leave
the church and pick up an assault weapon. He does not know
whether there are killers who step inside the sanctuary.
But he knows there are victims.  He attended the funeral of
a lawyer who was assassinated. During the procession, the
lawyer's daughter was gunned down before Trevizo. The convoy
she was in, which followed her father's casket, was ambushed
by gunmen as it approached the cemetery.  Trevizo said he
didn't know whether she was the target, but the lawyer was
an outspoken critic of organized crime. Trevizo was uneasy
when asked for other details.
[...]
==============  =========  =========
soundoff (Comments)

Guest
Where is Rambo when we need him?  15 hours ago
==================
Guest
Please Americans, help us, stop consuming too much drugs...
15 hours ago
==================
truthyface
war on drugs is 100 percent successful!*
*at getting a lot of innocent people killed and filling
the pockets of gangsters   16 hours ago
==================
chessnutz
I will not just blame the drug cartels, but the main
reason that everyone overlooks. That is the US stance
to continue in this failed drug policy. Mexico’s drug
cartels main export is marijuana. The criminal gangs are
making billions if not trillions of $$ in this illegal business.
 When will the US Gov't stop doing the same failed policy
over and over, continue to escalate this “war on drugs” &
begin to look for other solutions?
When alcohol was legalized the policy wasn’t changed
because the use/abuse of alcohol were a good thing for
personnel behavior. Alcohol wasn't declared safe it was
regulated. The policy didn't say alcohol is legal go give
your babies a beer. The policy and the laws were changed
because the criminal gangs, the violence & corruption
were unacceptable damage of the policy of prohibition.
Now is the time to legalize marijuana, regulate it, and
control it and contain the use above the black market
drug cartels. IMHO take the profits away and remove the
teeth of these criminals, and save thousands of innocent
victims here and in Mexico.  16 hours ago
==================
barko
It's a mess but as several here have said there is a
simple fix. Legalize the drugs, tax them, regulate
dispensing like we do with our biggest drug and put
all the criminals out of business. We could take 1/10
the money we spend on the war on drugs and use it for
education about drugs and still keep the usage about
the same as it is now.  People have used drugs for
thousands of years and will for thousands more right
or wrong, it is a fact.  17 hours ago
==================
6cobra
First guest: you say the cartels will still be making
big money off narcotics even if they are legalized.
Answer me this: when was the last time you bought an
illegal beer in a speakeasy, or drank some hard alcohol
made in a bathtub? Probably not too recently. The mob
isnt making a dime on alchohol because people would much
rather buy "safe" alchohol at the corner store... just
like people would rather buy their weed at the local
pharmacy than from a dealer in the ghetto. Cartels will
still make money, but it will be from gambling, counter-
feit goods, and petty crap like that.  12 hours ago
==================
n8r
Guest said "even if drugs are legalized they will still
do something to make a profit."  IMO: The cartels are
already setup to grow and sell. They will most likely
switch to the legal operation. Why? They are already in
operation. The black market for pot will shrink and it
won't be as profitable.  14 hours ago
==================
Guest
barko; WE the people should create a citizen's watch.
We should ALL stop working for ONE day, all of us, for ONE
day, to make the politicians in the USA realize that enough
is ENOUGH. How long can we die with our kids taking drugs,
our parents taking drugs, while our mexican brothers and
sisters are being murdered......AND WE DO NOTHING.
14 hours ago
===================
Guest
even if drugs are legalized they will still do something
to make a profit. like if we were to tax them they would
obviously not pay the taxes & they'll still make thier
own drugs & probably sell them for less than the "legal"
drug sellers.  15 hours ago
===================
Guest
When I was in school I was told that prohibition didn't
work. It makes criminals out of ordinary people. For me
the question is who has the right to tell me what I can &
can't put in my body. The War on Drugs™ is big business
in this country & makes a lot of money for police depts.
The government should butt out or be reasonable the sale
and collect taxes.  17 hours ago
===================
.
.


author: Kent Paul Dolan

subject: Re: Need to legalize drugs, Stupid!

text:
(David P.) wrote:

Says the person who burned out his brain on an
addictive and abusable substance once illegal in
the USA, but later made legal.

That "legalize drugs" (in this case, ethanol) idea
worked out so well for him that he is a pathetic
obsessive compulsive person now, making zero
contribution to humankind, who wastes his life on
repetitive mindless rants for one idiotic cause or
another, this just one among many.

Of course, there's no reason on earth to expect
those such as him, brain-burned by abusable
substances, to be anything _but_ slow learners.

xanthian.


author: Illivanilli

subject: Re: Need to legalize drugs, Stupid!

text:
On Feb 4, 12:18 am, "(David P.)" <[email]> wrote:

  Legalizing all drugs is the only sensible thing to do. One can take
a look at the past prohibitions. Alchol in the united states, only
increased consumption of alchol. We should be treating addiction and
drug use as a health care problem instead of a criminal problem. This
drug war has failed, and really shouldn't have been enacted.


author: jellybean stonerfish

subject: Re: Need to legalize drugs, Stupid!

text:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:25:01 -0800, Illivanilli wrote:

Has the drug war really failed?  The war on drugs has been used as a way
to direct mass amounts of public money toward the police sector, and away
from programs that should get it.  Hospitals, schools, parks, etc.  It also
has been use as a way of breaking down civil liberties.  It didn't really
fail, but it did not go far enough.  The war on terror is being used to
fill the gaps.  If the war on terror isn't enough, the next phase will be
enabled in 10 - 30 years, the war on dissent.


author: sid vicious

subject: Re: Need to legalize drugs, Stupid!

text:
Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
... i told you 'standing aked out in the driveway;' would get you in
urouble but do you listen???


author: Lee

subject: Why Grow Spiritually?

text:
"Every human being senses an inner longing that goes deeper than the
longings for emotional and creative fulfillment. This longing comes from
sensing that another, more fulfilling state of consciousness and a larger
capacity to experience life must exist."
    __________

 Actualizing the Divine life ~ Eva Pierrakos
 April 6, 1973

 In this lecture I wish to give you some clear-cut pointers and
 initial concepts of what to look for, what to be attuned to, and
 what to be prepared to recognize as your own as yet
 dormant potentials. I will draw a picture of what it is like,
 inwardly as well as outwardly, to come to the point where the
 personality truly unites with the inner divine self, with the
 inexhaustible wealth that is every human being's inner nucleus:
 the center of one's very being. ... I will try to give you a
 concept and a vision so that you can begin to see with fresh
 eyes, and perhaps recognize in others what you had previously
 been blind to.

 When individuals come to the state of deliberately and
 consciously choosing to commit themselves to the divine will
 and reality, then the groundwork has been laid for certain vital
 changes to occur in their inner and outer lives. This is a
 commitment to the all-consciousness indwelling in every creature.
 It can be called by any name you choose: God, universal
 consciousness, the real self,the inner self -- whatever name you
 give to that which transcends the little ego. When this whole-
 hearted commitment is made totally, then certain things begin
 to happen in one's life. Obviously,one reaches this state not by
 crossing a sharply defined line, but through a gradual process.
 Before describing this process, I wish to say that you must not
 be misled by the fact that you may consciously have made such
 a commitment, and yet find no great inner or outer change
 occurring in your life.

 I shall now discuss specific manifestations that take place in
 a person who is already deeply anchored in the process of
 actualizing the divine life into his or her ... consciousness.
 What are the inner and outer attitudes, manifestations, and
 expressions of such a person? All decisions, big or small, are
 made on the basis of self-surrender, where the little self
 surrenders to the godself. It steps aside and allows the inner
 wisdom to permeate it. In this process the personality realizes
 that there is nothing that is unimportant. Every thought, every
 opinion, every interpretation, every mode of reacting is given
 a chance to be permeated by the greater consciousness.

 At this stage the resistance to paying attention to everything
 that occurs is overcome; a new habit has been formed so that
 the divine process is now self-perpetuating. It is so much part
 of the whole person that it operates even on those rare occasions
 when the personality forgets to establish the contact, when,
 perhaps, an old raw area might still flare up and push the
 personality in the wrong direction. The inner self is
 sufficiently freed to manifest so that it can send forth
 warnings, disagreement, adviceï¿½and then leave the decision
 of whether or not to follow such advice to the outer personality.
 This is already a state of grace. Confidence and trust have been
 established as a result of repeated proof that divine reality
 brings truth, wisdom, goodness, and joy. At first, the divine
 will is not trusted. It is confused with untrustworthy parental
 authority, which may often have proclaimed something as good
 for the child that really proved not to be so. At the stage in
 question this confusion no longer exists. The self is fully aware
 that divine will is truly in accordance with all that the heart
 may possibly desire. This trust grows gradually every time you
 overcome your resistance and go into the apparent abyss of
 surrender, giving up narrow selfwill.

 This self-perpetuating divine process brings a vital
 revolutionary change into the entire person. I can touch upon
 only a few of its manifestations. Thoughts of truth will be sent
 forth into your being, notwithstanding the limited thoughts you
 still habitually follow. You will hear an inner voice instructing
 you with a wisdom and a unifying spirit that your outer self
 cannot possibly produce. According to this wisdom, there is
 never any need to hate, to feel self-rejection or to reject others.
 The answers and revelations will show the oneness and unity of
 all, which will completely eliminate fear, anxiety, friction, and
 despair.

 Surrendering the knowledge of the limited ego to the knowledge
 of the deeper self, so as to exert all energy, courage, honesty,
 and self discipline toward making the deeper knowledge self-
 perpetuating, leads to ultimate fulfillment.

 Without this as the essential foundation, no joy, pleasure, or
 fulfillment can exist for long. Even while they do exist, the
 fulfillment becomes unbearable and finally cannot be accepted.
 Give up your stake in your negative reaction, in the stubborn
 opinions of your little mind, in the laziness that forces you to
 succumb to the old habits of your separated self. You will thus
 gain true life. Wait patiently, but be ready to receive divine
 wisdom which you can activate if you so desire. When this state
 has been instituted, or is in the process of being continually
 deepened and strengthened, then certain other manifestations
 begin to appear, inwardly and outwardly.

 You will find an immense security. This is a security you can
 only gain when you discover the reality of the spiritual world
 within you and operative around you. You will then know the
 deep peace of the meaning of your life and of all life. You will
 intuitively know the connections and be permeated by a sense
 of fulfillment and safety that surpasses all words. All this will
 then no longer be a theory of belief that you cling to or deny,
 but an experiential fact which you can recognize again and again.
 There is always a way out of every darkness and therefore never
 a reason to despair. You will know that you are always capable
 of using whatever you experience to heighten your blissful life.
 Dark spots become opportunities for further light and no longer
 need to be avoided, whether they be pain, guilt, fear, or
 whatever. Again and again you will experience the wide
 open system of creation.

 You will know and make use of your own creative powers,
 rather than feeling a helpless object in a fixed world. Peace and
 knowledge of the tightness of life come from realizing that your
 world, your experience, your life is your creation. This opens
 many new doors. You no longer live in the two-dimensional
 world of either/or. You avail yourself of the many-faceted reality
 at your disposal.

 The confidence and fearlessness in which you then live
 necessarily release an immense amount of energy and joy. As you
 lose your fear of anger and hate because you can accept your own
 anger and hate, they no longer exist. The energy is now free for
 other, better expressions. You now become capable of pleasure
 and joy and no longer need to reject them. Instead of creating
 loneliness, you can create relationships: the bliss of the most
 intimate relationship with one mate, and the satisfaction of
 deep, open friendships. Pleasure will no longer frighten you
 because you now know in every pore and cell of your being that
 you deserve it. Your every pore and every cell are expressions
 of a consciousness which is now in harmony with your god-
 consciousness.

 Many of you find yourselves in an interim state where you
 experience new joys and pleasures you never knew existed. life
 opens up for you as it never did. But you also find yourself in
 the position where you cannot yet bear too much of it. This is
 because you have not totally surrendered to the god-
 consciousness, or you have not sufficiently faced negative
 aspects in you and still cling to them. Hence, you fear pleasure,
 which becomes more frightening than the grayness you still wish
 for and create, a grayness of neither pleasure nor pain. You
 often want to painstakingly preserve this state of grayness
 without knowing that you do so. It is a grayness which gives
 you comfort, but in the long run leaves you empty.

 An inevitable manifestation of the continuous process of
 actualizing your deep self is the incredible creativity that
 blossoms out from your inner life. You are creative in ideas,
 alternatives, talents, richness of feelings, and the ability to
 live with and relate to others. You find the treasure of your
 creative powers, the wealth of your feelings, and the fullness of
 your own being. Only as you go through the emptiness can you
 find that fullness. And that requires courage which comes when
 you pray or meditate for it. You must want the fullness and
 commit yourself to it. This fullness of feelings, this wealth of
 creative ideas, and the ability to live in the now with all its
 excitement and peace, will deepen and widen.  It will not consist
 of mutually exclusive opposites but of different facets of the
 same fullness. The times when you seem to lose it will come less
 often and be less severe.

 Since you now have the power to create, you can create a deeper
 intuitive understanding of yourself, others, and life. Your total
 attitude of relaxation about every part of yourself eliminates
 the need to cover up and escape from anything in you and
 therefore must make you aware of other people on their deepest
 levels. You read their thoughts and understand the deeper
 connections within and between them so that you can help them,
 have empathy for them, and love them. You need never fear and
 defend against others with your destructive ego defenses.

 Inner unity with your eternal self makes it possible to use your
 creative ability to explore any area of universal truth you truly
 wish to comprehend. You now know the power of thought and
 consciousness and you can focus it as a result of the self-
 discipline you have learned. Thus you can cultivate a creative
 receptivity to experience the eternal state beyond physical
 death. This perception is not reliable as long as you seek it out
 of your own fear of death. It is reliable only when you do not
 fear death because you now can die, just as you can be in pain.
 Whenever you want something because you fear its opposite,
 the result cannot be reliable. You can create only out of fullness,
 not out of need and poverty.

 So the difficulty is in initially creating fullness. Seeking the
 opposite of what you fear is an escape and leads to a split
 rather than to unification. Exactly the opposite road must be
 taken. You must die many deaths, right now, every day in
 your life, in order to discover the eternality of life. Only then
 will you live fearlessly.

 How can you die all these little deaths? Follow exactly the
 process I described: let go of the little ego, the little
 opinions, the negative reactions you have such an investment
 in. You have to die to those. The little ego with its little
 investments must die. In that way you can transcend death
 and intuitively experience the reality of life ongoing.

 When you live without fear of death because you experience
 it so many times, you will know that in principle physical death
 is the same. You find it to be so by temporarily letting go of
 the smaller self, only in order to find a larger self wakening,
 which then unifies with the little self. So you see, not even
 the little self of the ego really dies. It is enlarged and united
 with the larger self, not given up. But it appears to be given
 up and you must be ready to take the plunge.

 When this happens, a measure of eternality will manifest in
 your life right now. It manifests not only by eliminating fear of
 dying but also in a more immediate practical sense. It will keep
 you vital and youthful, giving you as it were a foretaste of the
 timelessness and agelessness of the true life.

 Another outward manifestation is abundance. Since real spiritual
 life is limitless abundance, to some degree you must begin to
 manifest that when you actualize your divine self. If you can
 make room in your consciousness for outer abundance as a
 reflection of universal abundance, you will create and experience
 it. If you want to experience it because you fear poverty, you
 also create a split. The abundance you create out of fear is not
 built on reality, and its flimsy structure must be crushed again
 so that you can then let yourself be poor and dissolve the
 illusion of poverty. Only after this can the real, unified
 richness grow. Only when you first can be poor can you allow
 yourself to be rich as an outer expression of inner content. Then
 you will not want to be rich for the sake of power or for outer
 gains in the eyes of others, or out of greed and fear, but in
 order to be a true divine expression of the abundance that
 is the nature of the universe.

 Another outer manifestation of the continual process of
 actualizing divine life is the proper balance of everything: the
 balance of assertion and giving in, for instance. The spontaneous
 knowing when one or the other is appropriate comes from within.
 Or consider the proper balance of right selflessness and wrong
 selfishness. All these balances and dualities will become
 elements in a spontaneous unification and harmony. The intuitive
 knowledge of when, what, and how will come not because you
 decide it with your mind, but as an expression of inner truth and
 beauty that reaches expression on the outer level, appropriately
 and beautifully.

 There will be a poise and beauty in your whole bearingï¿½a courtesy
 and chivalry that never needs to fear being ridiculed or being
 taken advantage of. There will be order without a trace of
 compulsiveness, order in all things of your life. Order and
 beauty are related and interdependent. There will be generosity,
 a giving and receiving in one ongoing stream. There will come a
 deep ability to be grateful and to appreciate others, yourself,
 and the whole creative universe.

 A new freedom to be soft and vulnerable will make you truly
 strong and take away false shame. Concurrently, you will
 experience a new freedom to be strong and assertiveï¿½even
 angryï¿½without false guilt. You will know and act from within
 because you are in constant contact with the wisdom, love,
 and truth of your inner divine reality.

 The emotional loneliness that is the self-chosen lot of so many
 people gradually begins to disappear among you, my friends. In
 your development you learn to be real, to function without your
 masks and pretenses. Consequently you begin to feel comfortable
 in closer intimacy. As you simultaneously cease to fear the
 pain/pleasure syndrome, true ecstasy and deep fusion on all
 levels must give you the deepest fulfillment a human being can
 experience. You will progress to new heights and depths of
 experience, where you explore the inner universe in unison.
 Loneliness and the torture of conflict about the need for and
 fear of closeness will no longer exist. Such relationships fuse
 on all levels. The abundance of the universe expresses itself in
 all areas of life. You will feel it in the sharing, the respect,
 the warmth, the ease and comfort with which you can be intimate
 and fused with another person, or in giving to and receiving from
 another person. The security of your own feeling will make you
 equally secure about being loved.

 You will experience the deep satisfaction of giving, helping,
 fulfilling a task, and of being devoted to doing so. You will
 rejoice in the ongoing creative process that is at work in it.

 All of these are gauges for you, my friends. These gauges are
 not to be used to put yourself down in impatience and intolerance.
 They are gauges you can use in order to create deliberate inner
 visualization about any and all of these life expressions. And
 then you will perhaps be more strongly motivated to search
 further for what still stands in the way. This lecture will give
 you many tools for your work.

 The love of the universe spreads over all of your and reaches
 deep into your hearts, my dearest friends. Be blessed, be God.


author: Katie

subject: Re: Why Grow Spiritually?

text:
On Jan 30, 9:11 am, "Lee" <[email]> wrote:

Q: Why Grow Speeeeeeeeeeeeeritchually?

A: Because it's the only form of "growth" which can't be defined,
measured, or verified, so the ethicless can demand lots of credit for
doing nothing from the mindless, so it   works out really well for
losers, users, abusers predators, and scared little Creepy People
posing as Enlightened Beings for fun and prophet.


author: Chuck

subject: Re: Why Grow Spiritually?

text:
On Jan 31, 5:14 pm, "Katie" <[email]> wrote:

Nothing at all. You know the saying, "Clothes make the man"? Well, I
haven't decided what I want to be made into today.

OK, I've got your number. I just have to remember where I saw it
last.

I recently got back from my planned trip around the world. I got over
half way and remembered that I left home without my AMEX card, so I
retraced my steps before the pocket change ran out. I think I'll try
again next month before the summer tourist season.

Sounds kinky. Too bad J-Lo's absent. You didn't perchance catch the
Mythbusters show recently that featured chain mail? It was such a turn
on.


author: Pieter

subject: Re: Why Grow Spiritually?

text:
"Katie" <[email]> schreef in bericht
news:[email]...

What about (wo)men like Florence Nightingale, Ghandi,
Martin Luther King, mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela?
I agree that they cannot be "measured".


author: Academic Zodiac 22 Zodiacal Constellations 16 Eastern Ascendants

subject: Longevity Express

text:
Bad transits are the matter of the past.

Change your horoscope for the best!

Materialize whatever you wish for in minutes

with the Real Time Reality Rendering Tools.

First published by Klaudio Zic Publications, 2010, {www.lulu.com/
astrology}. Copyright © 2010 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No
part of this material may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or
by any means, electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes or
otherwise, without the written permission of the Author. The names of
dedicated publications are normally given in italics.

PRACTICAL IMMORTALITY

{news://94.75.214.90/alt.clearing.o5}


author: Desertphile

subject: Re: Longevity Express

text:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:08:18 -0700 (PDT), Academic Zodiac 22
Zodiacal Constellations 16 Eastern Ascendants <[email]>
wrote:

Scientology kills people.


author: Terrys

subject: Re: Longevity Express

text:
On Aug 15, 8:08 pm, Academic Zodiac 22 Zodiacal Constellations 16
Eastern Ascendants <[email]> wrote:

You've posted a UseNet thread. We'll quote and copy it however we
fucking like.
You don't like it - then you're in the wrong place. Get your own
private network.
You can't claim your piss once it hits the stream.
In the case, the analogy is particularly apt.


author: John G. Otto

subject: Re: tax slaves

text:
There's a widely known anecdote in which one person asks another
whether they'd be willing to have sex for $1M.  When the answer is
"Yes.", the first person asks, "Well, would you be willing to have
sex for $10." to which the answer is: "Why, of course not!  What
kind of person do you think I am!"  The first comes back with:
"We've already established that.  We're just dickering over the
price."

By the same token (:B-)}  it doesn't matter whether the extortionist
demands 90% of earnings, 20% of earnings, 1% of earnings, or 1 cent;
he is still an extortionist demanding the other party to be his slave.

"'Liberty', as guaranteed by the Constitution, is the right of a citizen to
 use his faculties in all lawful ways, to live & work where he will, to
 earn his livelihood in any lawfult calling, & to pursue any lawful trade
 or avocation."       --- Ives v S Buffalo Railway Co 94 NE 431, 439 (1911)

"If [a person who lost her job due to the minimum wage law]
 cannot be trained to yield output that does pay the cost of her
 labor, then she can... accept that status of a defective to be
 segregated for special treatment as a dependent of the state."
                    --- Oregon brief to US Supreme Court 1914


author: Mike Huben

subject: Re: tax slaves

text:
In article <[email]>,
John G. Otto <[email]> wrote:

But the government is not an extortionist.  That's YOUR absurd presumption.


author: Curt Howland

subject: Re: tax slaves

text:
[email] (Mike Huben) writes:

|> From the FAQ:

|> Mike Huben
|>
|> (Check out the Critiques Of Libertarianism web page.  The URL is
|>  http://draco.centerline.com:8080/~mrh/liber/)

Mike, in the interests of complete accuracy and
full disclosure, would you consider changing your
statements of "THE faq" and "Check out THE Critiques"
with the words "MY faq" and "Check out MY Critiques"
please?

Just to keep from confusing people.

---
Curt Howland         [email]
 What have I done to harm you that you wish
to take away my ability to posess a firearm?


subject: Re: tax slaves

text:
In article <[email]>,
Curt Howland <[email]> wrote:

What confusion?  How many Non-Libertarian FAQ's are there out there?
How many  Critiques Of Libertarianism web pages are there?  Can you point
to one thing I wrote without my name on it?

At a guestimate, 80% of the Non-Libertarian FAQ is my original contribution,
and the rest is contributions or material revised at the suggestion of a
large number of reviewers.  I'd like to increase the contributed percentage
as I enlarge the FAQ into a system of FAQs.

Almost everything else at the web page is somebody else's freely shared
product.

The only sense they are "mine" is that I am the editor (and primary contributor
to the FAQ, which I clearly state.)  But I'm not surprised that a libertarian
like you would WANT me to prominantly claim it as my personal property.  :-)
I'd rather present it as more open, to aid in soliciting further materiel.

Mike Huben

(Check out the Critiques Of Libertarianism web page.  The URL is
 http://draco.centerline.com:8080/~mrh/liber/)

"I think it must be conceded that it is possible to create a society in which
the response to market failure is not a swing to socialism, but an exacerbation
of individual efforts to stay ahead by making and spending yet more money.
Does the public health service have long waiting lists and inadequate
facilities?  Buy private insurance.  Has public transport broken down?  Buy a
car for each member of the family above driving age.  Has the countryside been
built over or the footpaths eradicated?  Buy some elaborate exercise machinery
and work out at home.  Is air pollution intolerable?  Buy an air-filtering unit
and stay indoors.  Is what comes out of the tap foul to the taste and chock-
full of carcinogens?  Buy bottled water.  And so on.  We know it can all happen
because it has:  I have been doing little more than describing Southern
California."
"Now it is worth noticing two things about the private substitutes that I have
described.  The first is that in the aggregate they are probably much more
expensive than would be the implementation of the appropriate public policy.
The second is that they are extremely poor replacements for the missing
outcomes of good public policy.  Nevertheless, it is plain that the members of
a society can become so alienated from one another, so mistrustful of any form
of collective action, that they prefer to go it alone."
	Brian Barry, "The Continuing Relevance of Socialism"


author: Alex Vange

subject: Re: libertarianism - (Mr. Allen would solve things via Inquisition)

text:
Ron Allen <[email]> wrote in article
<[email]>...
      Communism is power from below. It is opposed to having the best
statesmen lead the nation.

Here are some quotes form Mein Kampf:

     "Hence all inventions are the result of the creative faculty of the
individual. And all such individuals, whether they have willed it or not,
are the benefactors of mankind, both great and small. Through their work
millions and indeed billions of human beings have been provided with means
and resources which facilitate their struggle for existance.
    "Thus at the origin of the material civilization which flourishes
to-day we always see individual persons. They supplement one another and
one of them bases his work on that of another. The same is true in regard
to the practical application of those inventions and discoveries. For all
the various methods of production are in their turn inventions also and
consequently dependant on the creative faculty of the individual. Even in
purely theoretical work, which can not be measured by a definate rule and
is preliminary to all subsequent technical discoveries, is exclusively the
product of the individual brain. The broad masses do not invent, nor does
the majority organize or think; but always and in every case the individual
man, the person."

 "Therfore not only does the organization possess no right to prevent men
of brains from rising above the multitude but, on the contrary, it must use
its organizing powers to enable and promote that ascension as far as it
possibly can. It must start out from the principle that the blessings of
mankind never came from the masses but from the creative brains of
individuals, who are therefore the real benefactors of humanity. It is in
the interest of all to assure men of creative brains a decisive influence
and facilitate their work. This common interest is surely not served by
allowing the multitude to rule, for they are not capable of thinking nor
are they efficient and in no case whatsoever can they be said to be gifted.
Only those should rule who have the natural tempermant and gifts of
leadership."

        "Though all human civilization has resulted exclusively from the
creative activity of the individual, the principle that it is the mass
which counts--through the decision of the majority-- makes its appearance
only in the administration of the national community especially in the
higher grades; and from their downwards the poison gradually filters into
all branches of national life, thus causing a veritable decomposition. The
destructive workings of Judaism in different parts of the national body can
be ascribed fundamentally to the persistant Jewish efforts at undermining
the importance of personality among the nations that are their hosts and,
in place of personality, substituting the domination of the masses. The
constructive principle of Aryan humanity is thus displaced by the
destructive principle of the Jews. They become the 'ferment of
decomposition' among nations and races and, in a broad sence, the wreckers
of human civilization.
       "Marxism represents the most striking phase of the Jewish endeaver
to eliminate the dominant significance of personality in every sphere of
human life and replace it by the numerical power of the masses. In politics
the parlimentary form of government is the expression of this effort. We
can observe the fatal  effects of it everywhere, from the smallest parish
council upwards to the highest governing circles of the nation. In the
field of economics we see the trades union movement, which does not serve
the real interests of the employees but the destructive aims of
international Jewry."

      "If the National Socialist Movement should fail to understand the
fundamental importance of the essential principle, if it should merely
varnish the external appearance of the present State and adopt the majority
principle, it would really do nothing more than compete with Marxism on its
own ground."

    "The best constitution and the best form of government is that which
makes it quite natural for the best brains to reach a position of dominant
importance and influence in the community."

     Russian socialism was more like a gang of bandits running the country
than any kind of socialism.


author: Ron Allen

text:
Alex Vange wrote:

Ron Allen answers:
Communism presupposes that every human being is capable of being the
best, and that the qualities of statesmanship can become the democratic
qualities of a stateless society.

Alex Vange wrote:

Ron Allen answers:
It would be well-suited to a fï¿½hrer to give credit to individuals for
their inventiveness and creativity  -- after all, Hitler is endeavoring
to show himself as one of those inventive and creative geniuses.  To a
socialist and communist, the inventive and creative individual remains a
social individual, educated by the community, inspired by other human
beings, encouraged by the social usefullness of what is conceived and
brought into being.

Alex Vange wrote (quoting Hitler):

Ron Allen answers:
Even Einstein knew his ideas were not "the product of the individual
brain" alone.  Einstein built upon the products of other individual
brains that also built upon the products of other brains, and so on.
Hitler's focus on the individual serves the purpose of preparing the
people for his own fascist version of a cult of the individual  -- a
fï¿½hrer cult.

Alex Vange wrote (still quoting Hitler):

Ron Allen answers:
Who do you suppose Hitler is talking about when he demands that "men of
brains" be allowed to "rise above the multitude"?

Alex Vange wrote (quoting Hitler):

Ron Allen answers:
Educated and free people will at last be able to govern themselves.
Unlike Hitler, I do not judge the better potential of human nature by
observing human nature enslaved under the rule of capital.  I judge the
better potential of human nature by observing my own inner desire and
yearnings to be free, to be humane, and to be noble.

Alex Vange wrote:

Ron Allen answers:
And to think these Jews are the only group in ancient times that fought
so bravely and so long against Greek and Roman imperialism.  Many were
crucified, and many decided to commit suicide, rather than submit
themselves, or their culture, to outside domination.

Alex Vange wrote:

Ron Allen answers:
Hitler fails to convince me that democracy is bad.  I believe human
beings can get along very well without fï¿½hrers or commissars.

Alex Vange wrote:

Ron Allen answers:
And that is one of the reasons Russian socialism is often called "red
fascism".  Bolshevism was more fascist than socialist, especially as it
evolved into Stalinism.


author: chow yun-fat

text:
On 27 Jun 1998 23:02:47 GMT, "Alex Vange" <[email]> wrote:

Communism is not about power ffrom below, it is about everyone sharing
in power.  It is opposed to having a statesman lead the nation because
there is no way to diffinatively test what qualities make the best
statesman.  When you say that the opposite of communism has the best
statesman lead the nation, what exactly do you mean by the best
statesman.  As often as Mein Kampf has been quoted, I think there is
OVERWHELMING evidence against Hitler as the best statesman.  I just
want to know what qualities make a great statesman, and how can these
qualities be tested as to not give an advantage to any person or group
of people.

Kendall Bader


author: Brenden D. Chase

subject: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
Bob F.'s Uncle's New York System Sauce
I can say with great confidence that the recipes for New York System style
"sauce" that have been posted here are not authentic, because they lack one
key ingredient: lard. Sorry to break this to you hot weiner afficionados,
but like it or not, from this point forward, you will knowingly stuff your
arteries with cholestrol-laden lard... I can hear those arteries slamming
shut now. Many years ago my uncle acquired the recipe for the "sauce" (he
claimed he won it in a card game), and he made it all the time for family
and friends. He used to make the sauce in huge batches that he would freeze
in reasonable portions to be thawed when the mood struck. Sometime after I
had moved away from Rhode Island and married he gave me the recipe. It's the
real deal. I've scaled down the recipe so that I don't have to store a few
gallons of it. Here it is.

  a.. 2 pounds of hamburger
  b.. ï¿½ cup of lard (I'll admit that I substitute canola for the lard, but
you can definitely tell the difference)
  c.. 8 ounces of water
  d.. 1 large onion, finely minced
  e.. 4 cloves of garlic, finely minced
  f.. 1 teaspoon of cumin
  g.. 1 tablespoon of paprika
  h.. 1 tablespoon of celery salt
  i.. 1 tablespoon of chili powder
  j.. 1 tablespoon of allspice
  k.. 2 teaspoons of dry mustard
  l.. 1 teaspoon of Tabasco
  m.. 1 teaspoon of salt
Render the lard in a large pan over medium heat, and saute the onions and
garlic until they are translucent. Add all the spices except the salt and
the Tabasco. Add the hamburger, breaking it up and stirring it continually
until crumbly and cooked. Add the water and cook as long as it takes to
evaporate the water. By this time the hamburger should be blended into the
sauce and take on the consistency that you are familiar with. If this does
not happen, then add four more ounces of water and reduce. Once you've
attained the proper consistency, taste the sauce. Add salt and Tabasco in
proportions that suit your taste. These items are reserved until the end
because the salt content in the celery salt is variable, as is the degree of
heat provided by the various brands of dry mustard.

----------------------
Found this on the internet.  A far away friend has never had a hot weiner,
and i wanted to take a stab at it..  Does this seem accurate to the folks
here??

Here's the original link:
http://www.quahog.org/factsfolklore/index.php?id=129


author: Laury

subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
"Brenden D. Chase" <[email]> wrote in message
news:7FV%l.4696$[email]...

Yes, I think so, Brenden. Bob F was a regular poster here, ex-patriate RIer
and devotee of all things RI. The website you found it on, quahog.org, is
the work of Christopher Martin, a lurker here who always attends confabs,
and he is very careful of what goes there. I'd trust anything on quahog.org.

Laury


subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
"Brenden D. Chase" <[email]> wrote in message
news:7FV%l.4696$[email]...

Also, I think the hardest part is finding the actually weiners themselves.
They are not standard hot dogs. Don't forget to tell him to steam the buns.

Hmm, I think it's been about 25 years since I've had one. Oh, no, wait, I
had a visitor from California who was fascinated with the weiners stacked up
the arm... I had one then, about 4 years ago. Back when I was an immortal
teen I used to eat 3 as a meal. Ugh, can't even consider that now without
feeling queasy.

Laury


author: Mike

subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
Brenden D. Chase wrote:

FYI, I've made various versions and use olive oil exclusively. I also
rinse the ground beef after cooking to remove the saturated beef fat
which adds nothing beneficial to the flavor, IMO.

I actually prefer the olive oil based meat sauce to the "authentic" meat
sauce.

PS: Bannister Spice of East Providence used to sell a spice packet for
"NY System Weiners" through local stores, eg: Shores and Carcieri's,
just add oil and meat.


author: Christopher Martin

subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
Laury <[email]> wrote:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Laury. I wouldn't go so far as to say
I am always right, but I do try to be as accurate as possible. In this
case I merely reposted Bob's uncle's recipe as one possible way among
many to make hot weiner sauce. Is it truly authentic? Who's to say?
Weiner sauce recipes have been handed down within families and from
restaurant to restaurant (and sometimes just taken by employees bent on
starting their own businesses) for generations. Each change of hands may
result in a subtle or not-so-subtle change in the recipe, so that today
there are dozens of variations.

Brenden, give Bob's uncle's recipe a try. If it doesn't do it for you,
try a different one. You'll eventually hit on one you like.

Christopher

-------------------------------------------------
Quahog.org: the definitive Rhode Island road trip
-------------------------------------------------


author: Edwin I

subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
"Laury" <[email]> wrote in message
news:S440m.14244$[email]...

I remember eating 12 with onions in one sitting when I was 18 or 19, but I
could never do that now!

Edwin


author: ctowers

subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
Mike wrote:

Here's a spice packet that can be bought locally or online, it's made
by someone that operates three NY System restaurants in RI.
There's also a recipe, and directions for serving the wieners -
http://www.olneyvillenysystem.com/


author: Mr Potatohead

subject: Re: Weiner Sauce - Accuracy??

text:
Edwin I wrote:
Eating 12, Edwin? Never. But even today I sneak off to
down a gagger or two occasionally. However I usually
follow them with a 5-day fast followed by a week of
spinach salads. :-)


author: David Jensen

subject: Re: Shame on Milwaukee ( cont. )

text:
On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:21:46 GMT, in wi.general
r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.worldnet.att.net wrote in
<[email]>:

I've heard those vague accusations, but no one seems to have details.

Is it ethical to substitute your judgment of fairness for the law? If
the law says that DNR cannot do something, you cannot blame them for
following the law.

They may have the right to feel discomfort, but unless a law is being
violated they cannot stop Perrier. The only question is: what law did
Perrier not follow in applying for the license. You have to live with
the law you have. They cannot take property rights away just because
they don't want Perrier to do something. On the other hand, they are
free to buy the right to use that water from Perrier. It's funny how
none of the opponents are willing to spend local or state tax money to
stop Perrier.


subject: Re: Shame on Milwaukee ( cont. )

text:
David Jensen <[email]> wrote:

Whatever.  You are pro-business, I am pro-environment.  I'm content to
leave it at that.

The department only answers to King Tommy.  Laws are subjective, after
a department has been politicized.

What a load of crap.

I will not waste time debating with you.

Cheers,

Robert

( modify address for return email )


subject: Re: Shame on Milwaukee ( cont. )

text:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2000 00:17:51 GMT, in wi.general
r_obert@REMOVE_THIS.worldnet.att.net wrote in
<[email]>:

You are mistaken, but since you can't actually tell me what you are
talking about, I'll let it go.

So you claim.

WHAT LAW IS BEING VIOLATED?

Do you know how?


author: Robert Arvay

subject: Jew-Bashing

text:
Some samples of Islamic public media in Arab nations.
These are not considered fringe radical groups.
They are mainstream.
Excerpted from FoxNews Views 2002-06-17;

Then there's the May 9, 2002, program on "discipline in the family,"
featuring one Jasem Al-Mutawah, an "expert on family matters," who
patiently describes to his viewers where on her body, how severely, with
what weapon, and under what circumstances a man should beat his wife.

(snip)

And, most harrowing of all, perhaps, especially if you have kids of your
own, there is the May 7, 2002 edition of "Muslim Woman Magazine,"
Toddler: Allah's mercy and blessing upon you.
'Amer: What's your name?
Toddler: Basmallah.
'Amer: Basmallah, how old are you?
Toddler: Three and a half.
'Amer: Are you a Muslim?
Toddler: Yes.
'Amer: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?
Toddler: Yes.
'Amer: Do you like them?
Toddler: No.
'Amer: Why don't you like them?
Toddler: Because . . .
'Amer: Because they are what?
Toddler: They're apes and pigs.
'Amer: Because they are apes and pigs. Who said they are so?
Toddler: Our God.

[End Excerpts]

The FoxNews article goes on to describe the depth of racism and misogyny
which has infected the Islamic world to its core.
Can there be any hope of peace while this depravity continues?
Can the Jews ever hope for reconciliation with these people?

God save us all!


author: Pat Kohli

subject: Re: Muslim-Bashing

text:
Robert Arvay wrote:

I was looking for that edition, any edition, even of "Muslim Woman
Magazine".  I even looked through this set of links for Muslim women,
and I
couldn't find it.
http://members.tripod.com/~jpeer/islam015.htm
Maybe you can explain where you got this information, Robert?  I looked
at
FoxNews, for what it is worth, and didn't see this at 6:41pm EDT and it
was
not there: http://www.foxnews.com/

Lot's of depravity, done simply by repeating out of context quotes:
http://www.ministriesofchrist.org/Click%20Quick%20Islam1.htm
http://www.ministriesofchrist.org/Click%20Quick%20Islam2.htm
http://www.ministriesofchrist.org/Click%20Quick%20Islam3.htm
http://www.ministriesofchrist.org/Click%20Quick%20Islam4.htm

or repeating some story, w/ color fotos!
http://www.camelraces.com/

Categorizing Muslims as 'unreached'?
http://www.parousiatoday.org/unreached/30-week2.htm
http://www.bethany.com/profiles/p_code2/1815.html

Peaceful thoughts from the Zionist perspective:
THE NATURE OF THE BEAST
      By David Basch

      The jackal kills sheep becase he is a jackal. The jackal has
nothing personal against the sheep. Nothing the sheep can do, no gift he
can make, no appeasement will make the jackal change his mind about
this. It is the nature of the beast as everyone will recognize. The
jackal is a useful prototype to bear in mind as our attention shifts to
two other kinds of "beasts".

      The first "beast" is the Muslim-Arab. In the same way that the
jackal must kill the sheep because he is a jackal, the Muslim-Arab must
attempt to destroy Israel because he is a Muslim-Arab. It is the nature
of the beast. It goes to the essence of what the Muslim-Arab is.

      He is the product of his socialization that has given him a value
system and his peculiar sense of right and wrong. To him, it is wrong,
unjust, for a non-Muslim national power, a power ruled by infidels, to
exist within what he regards as the Islamic realm.  What is more, his
socialization teaches that it is right and proper to endlessly expand
this Islamic realm into the domain of  others, even using military force
if necessary to do so -- a doctrine called Jihad. While Muslim-Arabs
attempt to disguise this  pernicious anti-social goal -- the better to
achieve it -- world class experts on Islam, like Professor Bernard Lewis
of the University of Chicago, certify that this martial aspect is indeed
the nature of Jihad.

      The Muslim-Arab tends to be more observant of his creed than
persons with a Western orientation. Submerged in their own secular
culture, Westerners can scarcely imagine the mind-set of the
Muslim-Arab, a person that can appear charming, gracious, and generous.
Unfortunately, when this same sweet person answers the imperatives of
his Islamic religion, he can be transformed into a man of simmering hate
and a supporter if not a perpetrator of the terrorism for which Arabs
have by now become justly famous.

      While non-Muslims will see the vile terrorist actions of the
Muslim-Arab as the savagery it is, to the Arab this same savagery meets
his definition of being "a good Muslim-Arab". Read the Gazan opinion
polls after each savage attack. Robbery and murder, which everywhere
else would be considered evils, when perpetrated by Muslims against
unsubjugated Israeli infidels are "righteous" acts. In Arab eyes, the
Jews of Israel dare to impose a non-Muslim sovereignty over what
Muslim-Arabs deem the lands of Islam. No historical evidence of two
earlier Jewish commonwealths can change this Arab opinion. Nor can
mountains of opposing historical evidence shake the opinion of the Arabs
of the territories that they are the original Canaanites.  The alleged
Islamic lands in question are not just the famous "territories" but all
the lands of the State of Israel.

      Since Muslim-Arabs take with deadly seriousness the idea that
Islam must triumph over its rivals, failure to achieve this goal leaves
the Muslim-Arab's life incomplete, moreso, and especially, when that
unachieved triumph concerns infidels in a place as conspicuous as a
standing Israel.

      Yes, like the jackal to the sheep, the Muslim-Arab has a murderous
design toward unsubjugated infidels. This is given exquisite expression
in the current designs of the Arabs toward the destruction of the State
of Israel, the religious nature of which goal the Muslim-Arab tries hard
to disguise as some secular matter of historical justice -- the better
to achieve it.

      The second of the two "beasts" of interest is the "universalist"
Jew. Like the jackal and the Muslim-Arab, this beast is also programmed
and predictable. He is an animal obsessed with finding brotherhood among
all men in accordance with utopian doctrines of the nature of mankind.
Driven by a desparate need to demonstrate a moral superiority -- he
obviously knows himself as the opposite -- he is programmed to find
traits of brotherhood in others, even if he has to invent the evidence
for it.

      Overly righteous to a fault, this is the kind of Jew who would
fight on principle to the death to enable an Adolph Hitler to come to
power by democratic means, against the objections of Jewish
"troublemakers". Only clear history has forced such Jews to take note of
the Nazi horror as the mass behavior of a supposedly enlightened nation
in violation of utopian assumptions about man. But learning this the
hard way, they cannot apply such knowledge to new, prospective cases.
Thus, today, the Jewish universalists find many "good" Muslim-Arabs that
do not wish to destroy Israel. That is what the "nice Arabs" tell them
to their face as they support Arab terror behind the scenes. It is to
such persons that the universalists want to surrender to demonstrate
their nobility, to show those "nice" savages and the world that there
are indeed good, high-minded, righteous Jews like themselves, the
universalists.

      Not peculiarly -- since it is probably of the essence of his
flawed, corrupted character -- though the universalist Jew is blind to
the savagery of the Arab strangers who want to kill him and his people,
he remains finely tuned to detecting "the evil ones" of his own people
who would guard the Jewish community against the savages this liberal
Jew has adopted as his brothers in humanity. Uncovering the reality of
the Arab threat and his savage capabilities would shatter the emotional
balance and world view of the universalist. (Peres has not discovered it
yet even at this late date.) Hence, he strives mightly to prevent
himself from learning of this reality. It is the nature of this beast.

      It is instructive to recognize the role of the two aforementioned
"beasts" in making the Oslo process possible:

      The Muslim-Arab has seen in the universalist Jews allies, par
excellence, in fulfilling his heart's desire to destroy Israel. All the
Muslim-Arab needed to do was to speak in a language of idealism resonant
to the ears of this kind of Jew. In the process that emerged, the
universalist Jew saw a means to gratify his neurotic need to pose as a
moral giant in creating a new utopian Middle East. He was willing on
behalf of his illusions to trade to the Arabs the strategic positions
Israel had been using to hold her enemies at bay for an illusion of
peace. Like a sheep opening the gate to the jackal, the universalist Jew
agreed to hopelessly weaken his nation in the name of his utopian dream
of mankind in an illusion of a peace that jackals cannot deliver.

      The psychic rewards to the universalist Jew of actualizing his
imagined ideals must not be underestimated. It is probably as great as
the reward the Arab imagines to be gained from Muslim-Arab triumph. That
is why such universalist Jews are virtually impervious to recognizing
reality, unless forced by an Arab knife against his own neck, if then.
Shimon Peres has not recognized this to this day after the tragic murder
of almost 300 Jews.

      The universalist Jew surrenders to his enemy because he is the
sick universalist beast he is. The Jews of Israel who trust the
governance of their land to persons of this ilk, as they did four years
ago when they elected the Labor Party to office, sell out their own
future. To do so, they threw out of office the Likud Shamir government
that had given the nation unprecedented levels of security, gone today.

      No doubt, a Western media creates confusion by carefully painting
a false picture of events in support of the Jewish universalists who
champion the foreign policy of others -- not Israel's. Haven't the Jews
of Israel wised up to the fact that this media is "free" to do the
bidding of the foreign policy establishment it serves, establishments
quite willing to take gambles with Israel's future for the sake of oil.
If there were really an Arab peace partner at the other side of the
negotiation table, would it be necessary for a CIA infiltrated press
corps and the falsifications, distortions, and omissions that
characterize "news" coverage to obscure the nature of the Muslim-Arab
and his ominous goals?

      It is time for Israelis and their government to wake up. The
Muslim-Arab has designs on Israel because he is Muslim-Arab, not because
of a few dunams of sand in the territories of Judea and Samaria that he
calls the "West Bank" that he says he wants. He had those territories
prior to 1967, including Jerusalem. When enough Israelis are brought to
the recognition of the enduring nature of the Muslim-Arab enemy, they
will see that appeasing the belligerant Arab "no-people", a
pseudo-people invented to sow moral confusion among the leftists,
facilitating Israeli surrender, cannot bring peace. It will only bring
the front lines of the enemy forward, to Israel's disadvantage.

      The idea that Israel must leave herself open to the mercy of
murderers is as irrational as leaving the sheep pen open to the jackal.
What is more, guarding the sheep from the jackal offers the pattern for
guarding Israel against the ravages of the Muslim-Arabs.

      When this understanding becomes common currency, I have no doubt
that Israelis will find the means to counter the dangerous Arab forces
arrayed against them -- forces that will only become ever more ominous
to the extent that the raging furnace of Arab demands are vainly
gratified.
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/automorphism.html

This is the real American Muslim perspective, not the hate-mongering
that suits your expectation, and feeds Zionism.
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1995_cr/h950329-terror.htm


author: Randy Burns

subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Robert Arvay <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

What's interesting about these problems is that they are late developments
in the history of Islam, basically only coming about as a type of
retaliation and resistance to Western European development.  What's funny is
that Christian fundamentalists also have had the same reaction in relation
to the place of women in society and  to race.

In other words there are great similiarities between fundamentalist Muslims,
Jews and Christians in terms of their interaction with the modern world,
almost as if they were of the same religion and belief!

Cheers, Randy


subject: Re: Muslim-Bashing

text:
Greetings;

Muslim bashing (or Arab bashing) is every bit as poisonous as
Jew-bashing, Fundamentalist Christian bashing, gay bashing and on and
on.
And undoubtedly there is too much of it within every large group.
But the items I presented were an order of magnitude beyond that.
What is now happening in the Arab world is much like the venomous and
murderous Jew-hating that expressed itself in the Nazi death camps of
the 1933-45 era.  It is the pervasiveness, the intensity, and the
state sponsorship of anti-Jewishness that is producing the
suicide/homicide bombers.
I am sure you have seen the TV news documentaries about the
madrassas--- small Muslim schools where young boys are taught hatred.
Undoubtedly you have read the Western news accounts--- of Arab press
reports--- that Jews drink the blood of Arab children.  These press
reports could never be printed without the approval of the dictatorial
Arab states in which they are published (and where there is no freedom
of the press).  And no doubt you are aware of the rampant belief among
many Palestinians and Arabs that no Jews died at the WTC--- because
they supposedly planned and carried out the atrocity, and stayed home
from work that day.
Despite all that, a great many Arabs come to the USA and mingle
without rancor in our multi-ethnic and multi-religious society.  Only
a small minority of them have hostilities toward their Jewish
neighbors.  But most of them are afraid to speak out, because the
fanatics among them are murderous to the point of suicide.
Indeed, many Palestinians are in the West because at home their
moderate persuasions would get them killed.  Surely you are aware that
in Palestine territory, it is not enough to be lukewarm in favor of
terrorism.  Anyone suspected of disloyalty is subject to summary
execution in the streets.
Contrast this to the state of Israel, where despite propaganda to the
contrary, there is respect for everyone's human rights, the rule of
law prevails, Jews are arrested and punished for crimes against
Palestinians (not one Palestinian has been arrested and punished by
the PA for crimes against Jews, except when forced to do so at virtual
gunpoint).

Note:  I regret not having cut and pasted the URL, and author, of the
FoxNews item from its Views section.  It has been rotated off the
site.  However, if you go to the Jewish World Review site, you will
find there the archived writings of many (about 40-50?) nationally
syndicated columnists, many of whom have documented and detailed a
large body of evidence, perhaps including the items I mentioned.
These authors include John Leo, Mort Kondracke, Nat Hentoff, and many
others well respected for their journalistic integrity.

Also, new evidence gets reported every day, it seems, as I'm sure your
alertness will prove me out.

Once again, I am not anti-Arab.  I am not aware of any Semitic
heritage in my past.  While I regard Islam as a false religion, I do
not doubt the sincerity and humaneness of many of its practitioners.
It's just that I see as absurd the claims that Israel should bare its
throat to the daggers of fanatics who have shown no hesitation to shed
innocent blood in the pursuit of their aims.
To try to put those people on a moral level with Israelis (and
Fundamentalist Christians in general) is simply a diversionary ploy to
remove attention from the obvious--- terrorists are not freedom
fighters.  They are murderers.
================

Pat Kohli <[email]> wrote in message news:<[email]>...
(snip)


author: Dermod Ryder

subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
"Randy Burns" <[email]> wrote in message
news:uJuP8.57641$[email]...
misogyny
developments
funny is
relation
Muslims,
world,

But they all are, Randy - adherents of the faith of
self-righteousness, the self appointed and anointed elect and elite,
of bigotry, intolerance and an inspired belief that nobody possesses
truth the way they possess truth.

Dermod.

Said Tiny Tim, mistakenly believing he was to be the stuffing for that
huge turkey that a born again Scrooge had bought!


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Greetings;

"Randy Burns" <[email]> wrote in message news:<uJuP8.57641$[email]>...

Really?  The Koran does not say that Jews are apes and pigs?  Women
are only recently chattel?

Here we go again.  Everything bad--- everything--- is the fault of
Western Civ.

And so has every other category of sinners.  But the point here is
that you have, juxtaposed, two societies in violent conflict--- Israel
and Palestine--- and it's the Israelis who are being told that, if
ONLY they would make one more concession in return for another promise
in a long line of broken promises from the PA, that the Palestinians
would live peacefully with the Israelis.  No, they won't.  The PA will
never be satisfied until every Jew is dead, preferably in some
horrible way.

There are great similarities between Muslim, Jew, Christian, and
Secularist fanatics.  At least to those who would paint with a broad
brush.
Truly, though, Fundamentalist Christians have not been good stewards
of God's word, myself worst of all.  And we must never lose sight of
the fact--- as we so often have--- that God loves every Muslim, Jew,
Baha'i, atheist etc etc with infinite love and yearning.  And that we
are commanded to "love one another."

As the End Times seem to be approaching at an accelerating rate, it
behooves us all to recognize the intractable depths of hatred which
fester in the hearts of men--- the flames of which are being fanned in
the madrassas and in the examples cited in my preveious post--- and to
try through prayer and action, to bring the world God's message of
love.

May it begin with me!


author: Paul Hammond

subject: Re: Muslim-Bashing

text:
Robert Arvay <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I saw a rather interesting programme, in a series by a British
journalist, called "Langan behind the lines" - in which, considering
that he knew little about the realities of life in the middle
eastern states, he went on a trip - to Iran, Iraq and Palestine
- to find out what life was *really* like there.

I could digress, because the whole series was wonderful, and
about Iran, particularly hopeful - there's a real "Prague spring"
type atmosphere there.

Anyway, he was in Palestine just before the intafada started,
and he was talking to a group of young lads on the beach.  They
refused to believe him when he talked with them about Hitler
and the gas chambers - as far as they are concerned this
is merely Jewish propaganda.  So, I can well believe that
such a patently ridiculous theory is widely believed in
Palestine.

However, I would tend to tolerance of such demonising of
their enemies, considering that their only impression of
the Jewish people is in the effects they experience
daily of the Israeli Palestinian policy.

Yes, this is quite often the case.  Greeks and Turks living in
another country often get on very well with each other, when
away from the context of the political disagreements between
their countries.  Arabs living in the USA have no reason to
hate the Jews that also live there, and don't need to talk
about Palestine if they want a quiet life.

But most of them are afraid to speak out, because the

I haven't heard of this happening, though what I've heard of
the IRA would lead me to lend credence to it.  Surely, it's
people who are suspected of collaborating with Israel
that are in danger, just like French collaborators were
strung up from the lampposts after WWII.

But, you are forgetting that one man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter.

Of course, it is absurd to say that Israel should surrender to
Palestinian aggression - but there has been aggression on
both sides.  Sharon came to power on the back of frustration,
promising security.  He cannot deliver that security with his
tanks.  The developments of the day will only make things
worse (in fact, AIUI, on the very day his tanks have moved
back into occupying Palestinian land, the "retribution" for
this has already started).  In the words of another
cliche, violence only breeds more violence.

Paul


author: Mr Mahdi

subject: Christianity killed more people than all the groups combined

text:
The Bible said you shall know them by their fruits:

Christians started WWI and WWII where hundreds of millions of people died.
Christian started every major world war in the past 2000 years, which proves
that Christianity produces cold-blooded killers in the name of their religion.

Christianity is the most racially segegrated religion on earth.  Sunday, when
church services are held is the most segegrated hour in the world.  Even racist
groups like the KKK and other white supremists are themselves Christian
fundamentalists.

In every single Christian country, the overwhelming majority of scientists and
thinkers are atheists, agnostics, etc.  Most of them are ex-Christians and
consider the Bible to be a masterpiece of scientific inaccuracy.

The Church used to kill and oppress people who believed in things like the
earth being round.  It was the Muslims that evil Christian Europe owed a
gratitude for rescuing these filthy, paganistic heathens from utter ignorance
of the Dark Ages.

Christians started wars like the Crusades and the Inquisition where they forced
non Christians to be Christians.  They stole hundreds of millions of Africans
and forced them to be slaves and Christian.

All of the colonial nations were Christian.  They stole the land of the people,
subjugated them to second class citizens in their own lands and forced the
inhabitants to embrace the Christian way.

Both South Africa and Israel are apartheid nations.  While South Africa has
abolished apartheid, the Zionist nation which has support by the majority of
white Christian fundamentalists is still an apartheid nation.
Christianity has caused more people to become atheists than Communism.  The
Bible is regularly being burned and the religion ridiculed, proving that
Christianity has no effect in the lives of those who think.

Christians by far has killed, raped, enslaved and destroyed more people and
nations than other group in the history of mankind combined.  This and MANY
other factors prove that Christianity by far is a false, evil religion created
by evil people and have nothing to do with the noble teachings of Jesus (as).
Christianity is really Paulianity and that of evil men.

Christians worship 3 gods and claim that its all one.  They call Jesus Lord
when Jesus called God Lord.  According to the Bible, Jesus was saved on the
cross by God (this is refuted in the Quran of course; Jesus was never crucified
or killed)  but Christians call Jesus and not God the Saviour.  Jesus even is
shown praying to God in the Bible but yet Christians worship Jesus and not God.

Jesus (as) was reported to of have said in the Bible that he did not come to
change the Covenant but to fulfil it.  These misguided Christians break almost
every law in the Covenant while claiming to of have followed the Prophet Jesus
(as).

Christian fundamentalists like Robert Arvay are the most hypocritical,
oppoturnistic bunch of devils in the planet.  They overlook the evil of their
people and religion and yet have the nerve to call Islam "a false religion."  I
can easily prove the mistakes and contradictions in the Bible to prove the
Bible is not from God.  I can show the fallacies of Christian dogma.  I can
show the scientific errors and historical blunders in the Bible to prove that
the book is not from God.

But since when intellectual proof meant to these evil, Christian
fundamentalists?

I want this hypocrite to quote Matthew 10:34 in the Bible to see if Bible
promotes peace.  Matthew 10:34 said that Jesus didn't come to bring peace but
the sword.  No wonder why Christians have a track record in killing the most
people.  They are just following their own Bible.

I suggest that Robert Avray study his own religion before calling Islam as a
false religion.

Mahdi Muhammad

http://brothermahdi.tripod.com/index.html


subject: Re: Muslim-Bashing

text:
Robert Arvay wrote:

Great!  So stop it, then!

(more Muslim bashing snipped)


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Robert Arvay <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

The solution to this problem becomes obvious when posed this way! (Kill them
before they kill us).  A typical Christian solution.

Cheers, Randy


author: Denis Giron

subject: Re: Christianity killed more people than all the groups combined

text:
[email] (Mr Mahdi) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

The Christians started these wars? Christians certainly took part (as
did many Muslims), but how did the Christians start them? It seems to
me that, with the exception of the Ottoman Empire, most of the parties
taking part in either war represented secular nations.

Every major world war? All two of them? Anyway, you haven't really
proven this; rather you just asserted such.

WOW! And the fighting for second place in the race to commit the most
murders would be the Atheists and the Muslims... can we make similar
leaps like Mahdi did above? By the way folks, I'm an Atheist...

Regardless, let's play with Mahdi's logic...

Christians have committed murders, which proves that Christianity
produces cold blooded killers.

Many Buddhists have been pacifists, which proves that Buddhism turns
people into pacifists.

There have been many Muslims who commit acts of terrorism, which
proves Islam produces terrorists... Oh wait, I bet Mahdi doesn't like
this sort of argument. Surely it is fallacious, but Mahdi ignores this
fact when he's attacking another faith.

You say this so much, which makes me wonder if you have ever been in a
Church. I used to be a member of the NYC Church of Christ, and it was
not segregated in any sense... not by race, not by financial status,
not by gender (no, the Christians don't send their women to the
partition).

There have been Muslims who associated themselves with fascism as
well. During the second world war, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was an
admirer of Hitler:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

Does Mahdi really believe the KKK represents Christianity? Can we also
assume the NOI represents Islam?

And how does this lend weight to your assertion that "Christianity
killed more people than all the groups combined"? Did you post this to
prove Christianity false? If you're so into this ad-verecundiam
approach, why not wonder what it says about Islam?

There are also many Christian intellectuals... ever heard of Alvin
Plantinga or William Lane Craig? I have much to disagree with them
about, but they are far above you and your Caliphist goons in terms of
brilliance.

And there were Muslim authorities (self-proclaimed Islamic states,
etc) who also committed crimes against people. If you always complain
that *REAL* Islam is not iplemented, cannot the Christians also agree
that crimes committed by the Catholic Church were outside the scope of
real Christianity? Even the Church itself has admitted those acts were
unChristian. Surely non-Catholics should not have to feel guilty about
it.

Never heard of the enlightenment, eh?

Many Jews, Christians and Muslims have engaged in forced conversions.
The Christians are the only ones who are willing to admit this is a
part of their history.

Islam played a major role in the African holocaust/slave-trade as
well. However, you claim Arab slave traders who oppressed and murdered
Africans were not real Muslims... so too, Christians can argue that
their coreligionists who committed these crimes weren't following the
gospel (check the Sermon on the Mount).

Most, actually, were secular. Sheesh!

The African continent has been ravaged by both Christianity and Islam.
Indigenous African culture has been almost entirely wiped out, and
nearly the entire population has been assimilated.

South African abolished apartheid... and are you blaming Israel on the
Christians too?

"White" Christian fundamentalists? A hint of racism? Many Christian
conservatives (and this crosses racial lines) in America support
Israel. So what?

Actually, Christianity is on the rise in this country. Go take a
closer look at American politics. Thankfully, in America people are
free to doubt Christianity. There is no law that calls for the killing
of apostates. Think about that...

WOW! Mahdi has no clue... so, do Islamic terrorists prove Islam is a
terrorist religion? Do drug dealers in Pakistan prove Islam is an evil
religion that condones drug abuse? Think hard about these silly
questions, as they show the silly leap you made in the paragraph
above.

Mahdi, you have no idea what Christianity is.

Some do, some don't. So what?

So wait, should Christians keep this covenant, and be even more
violent, stoning adulterers, killing homosexuals, waging war against
idolaters? That would make them too close to being like your ideal
Muslims...

Great! Let's see it. But remember, you onced ridiculed Baha'ullaah for
saying that these contraditions stem from interpretation, not the
actual text. So, I am challenging you to show me errors and
contradictions in the actual text (not a translation, which is just an
interpretation). Put up or shut up busta; I'm waiting...

In the discussions on logic, you have shown that you do not even know
what a "fallacy" is.

Go ahead.

The word "intellectual" does not mean much to you either...

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/home.html


author: Adelard R

text:
forced

Just look yourself in mirror. Let's me ask you a question. Didn't you say "
Death to Baha'is" last time?

Don't forget that the Arabs Muslims were major players in the slave trading.
How about Sudan and Mauritania, two Muslims nations which are still
practicing slavery. You should just read your Qu'ran, and you would
recognize that the practice of owning slaves was not abolished. Those
Christians pretend using the Bible like Muslims in Sudan pretend using the
Qu'ran.

<snip>
their
religion."

People like Robert are not that Christians, but they are driven by a kind of
political ideology, pretending to believe in Bible.
If you read the Bible or the Gospel, you will see nothing but love and
compassion of Jesus.

If you go to the third world countries, you would see that Christians are
loving and compassionate.

<snip>

Peace
Adelard


text:
Greetings;

[email] (Mr Mahdi) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Actually, it was Europeans who were violating the teachings of Jesus
who did this.

(Snip)

I can only speak for my congregation, which is integrated.  In the
several churches I occasionally visit, they, too, have multi-racial
composition.

They call themselves that.  Are there no Muslims with whom you are
embarrassed to be associated?

(snip)

I think that if you review my posts, I have not overlooked the evils
of myself, nor of people associated with me.  The Bible teaches that
we are all sinners in need of a forgiveness which none of us could
ever earn.
Sir, I am a Christian.  If I did not view Islam to be a false
religion, I would be a Muslim.  The two beliefs are clearly
incompatible.  Nevertheless, as a Christian, I am commanded by God to
love every human being on this earth, even those who would do me harm.
 Furthermore, whatever someone's religious belief, I believe I always
give them credit for the sincerity of that belief.  I may criticize
someone's politics or economic philosophy.  I try never to attack
their person or the sincerity of their beliefs.  To the extent that I
may fail in meeting this standard, I can only beg forgiveness.

(snip)

I believe you are misinterpreting that passage.  Taken in context with
the entire Gospels, Jesus calls upon us all to boldly wage war against
evil, but to do so with love for every individual.  Our war is not
against governments, nor for territory, but against evil.  And our
weapons are the virtues and the truth of God's word, not weapons of
destruction.  That we have failed to achieve this high standard is
disastrous.  But God is merciful.

Sir, with sincerity, I ask God's blessings on you and yours.


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
<snip>
them

Hi Randy,

I really don't think this is a typical Christian solution. Growing up in the
third world countries, in Christian environment, Christians were more loving
and compassionate.
When I first came here to the West, I felt there is something wrong with
these fundamentalist Christians of West, they are not at all compassionate,
rather they are into materialism and they are so fearful of diversity
because of lack of ignorance of other people traditions. If they could
understand and experience the power of Unity maybe they can understand and
practice the gospel of Jesus which is based on love and compassion.

Peace
Adelard


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Greetings;

You missed the point.  It's the PA (Palestinian Authority) which
cannot survive without fomenting hatred.  The solution then is to
remove the PA and find some moderate and competent leaders who can
develop Palestine economically (without getting assassinated by the
present Palestinian powers). The Palestinians I come in contact with
here in the USA seem to be quite adept at functioning peacefully in a
democratic economy.  I'm sure that, given opportunities in their own
land, they could become wealthy enough that they would rather trade
and barter than send their kids out to die.
While the history of conflict using Jesus as an emblem is shameful,
the TYPICAL Christian way is to follow Jesus.
May we all learn to do that, and soon.
===============

"Randy Burns" <[email]> wrote in message news:<s1JP8.61780$[email]>...

"Randy Burns" <[email]> wrote in message news:<s1JP8.61780$[email]>...


author: Steven Douglas

text:
[email] (Denis Giron) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

Denis, you have given Mr Mahdi an excellent response to his post and I
don't disagree with anything you wrote.  I'd just like to add a couple
of points below concerning science, KKK, the Crusades, Africa, and
when will he respond to your challenge?  I had to leave your entire
post intact.  It is too good to edit anything out.

KKK is not a Christian organization.  Christians don't have Wizards.

I believe most scientists in the US consider themselves to be
Christian.  There is a difference between "science" and "scientists"
-- "science" can only rely on hard facts, but "scientists" (as
individual people) are free to have faith.

Some Islamic leaders TODAY kill and opress people who believe in
anything other than Islam.

For 400 years prior to the Crusades, Muhammad the warrior, and his
succeeding warriors, spread their culture and doctrine by force.  In
1095, the Pope asked the leaders of Western Europe to *respond* to the
killings of Byzantine Christians by Muslim Turks.  This *response*
became known as the Crusades.

http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/religion/crusades/Crusade_Intro.html

Today, the Taliban-like government of Sudan forces Christians to
convert to Islam under threat of death.  Today, Sudanese Muslims also
abduct many Christians into slavery.

I've been waiting for his response.  Maybe he doesn't have one???


text:
(typical Adelard BS snipped)

LOL, just like the Christians in Rwanda who killed a million people in a few
weeks?  I have a friend who is Muslim from Rwanda and he told me the only time
a Huti would protect and Tutsi and vice versa were if they were Muslims.
Muslims were the only ones who didn't care for what ethnic group one came from,
while the Christians were busy killing each other off.  Plus, Christians have
killed and raped people in Bosnia, Kosovo and Russia.  I guess 300,000 Muslims
killed and raped by the Christian Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo were a sign of how
Christians were loving and compassionate?

Mahdi Muhammad

http://brothermahdi.tripod.com/index.html


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Like it or not, the Palestinians have to choose their own leaders or there
is no point in it.  Only the Palestinians can find a solution to their side
of the conflict.  Are there Christian groups in the West Bank helping
moderate Arabs build businesses?

Cheers, Randy


author: Al Klein

text:
On 26 Jun 2002 16:06:31 -0700, [email] (Steven Douglas)
posted in alt.atheism:

Since one MUST be Christian to be a member of the KKK, one can safely
assume that it's a Christian organization, whatever it might be in
addition to being Christian.  (Your argument is actually a No True
Scotsman fallacy.)

Which has nothing to do with Christianity.

"He did it too, so it's okay that I did it."   Pretty lame argument.

Most (England, France, Holland, Germany) were Christian.

All the failed prophesies.  The claim that if any group of Christians
asks for something in Christ's name, they'll get it.  Cud-chewing
hares.  Four-legged insects.  Day and night before there was a sun.
And on and on and on ...


text:
"Jacob T." <[email]> wrote in message news:<r6SQ8.48622$[email]>...

The Christian equivalent of Mahdi has chymed in... bravo, bravo...

Quite a bit of profanity for a pious follower of Jesus, eh?

You're calling the USA a Christian nation? A representation of
Christianity? Secularism is to credit (and blame) for the U.S.

That's not true. It would be more accurate to say that *MANY* Muslims
aligned themselves with the Nazis. I have not seen any evidence of a
majority. Besides, many Christians, agnostics and Atheists became
fascists as well, so this is a bad argument no matter which group you
are attacking...

Some did, but not all... this is important, and it is a distinction
that applies to the Christians as well.

Whatever...


text:
[email] (Mr Mahdi) wrote in message news:<[email]>...

WOW! Adelard needs to give up now, since Mahdi is citing such
irrefutable sources as some anonymous Rwandan Muslim he knows. Maybe
after that we can all take a trip to alt.religion.christianity and let
some guy tell us how bad Islam really is based on what he heard from a
Pakistani Christian ("we love each other; the muhammadans kill each
other").

The Rwanda conflict was ethnic, but also political... started by the
Belgians. The reality is that while there were many murders committed
in Rwanda by people who associate themselves with Christianity, many
Christians did cross ethnic lines in love and brotherhood. If Mahdi
needs an example of Hutu-Tutsi love among Christians, he need not look
any further than Jean-Baptiste Ndahindurwa, the former King, who was a
Tutsi with a loving Hutu wife. Not only that, but there are even
Christians and Muslims working together for justice in Rwanda:

http://www.warc.ch/up014/09.html

But wait folks, there were also many murders committed by Muslims,
Atheists and Agnostics... I guess only the Bahais are free of sin on
this one! Bosnia, Kosovo, the whole Yugoslav area... all that was
political and ethnic. Since we can cite people we know, I know a
Croatian Muslim who is quite proud of his role in killing Albanians.
Is Mahdi confused? Didn't he read in his Hizbut-Tahrir pamphlettes
that all Albanians are Muslims? More below...

As I understand it, hundreds of thousands of Albanians were killed,
but not all of them were Muslim. Many were Atheists, many more were
Catholic or Orthodox Christian. This was ethnic an political violence.
Furthermore, not all the Serbs were Christian. Mahdi is making things
too simple as usual.


text:
"Mr Mahdi" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
few
time

The Genocide of  Rwanda was caused by the Rwanda government in Power. Rwanda
Radio which was manipulated by the Rwanda government was the only way of
getting news and this Radio propagated a lot of hate and fear between Hutus
and Tutsis. At that time, People from Tutsi background were in exile, trying
to go back to Rwanda and the Rwanda government of which majority ( 99%) were
Hutus didn't want it and began a propaganda of hear and hate.
 When they tried to return to go back to Rwanda, that's when war began.

You may read the history of former Rwanda Colonialist, Beligium on the
Rwanda history, you would have a good understand about the problem the
ethnic divisions of Rwanda.

Take look in many countries in Africa, like Zaire, Kenya, Gabon, Christians
people come from different background and they live side by side in peace
and harmony

The Problem was the Rwanda government, in the case of USA, the situation is
completely different, the USA government abolished all the laws of racism,
but still many people are still ignorant of oneness of humankind and don't
have any compassion at all for the deprived ones.
The USA has one of the best constitution in the world and there is a freedom
of expression and it's easier to know the truth from the falsehood because
of advanced communication ( ie, internet, etc ) and but still many people
are still holding their prejudices.

from,

Who told you that Mahdi? He didn't tell you the truth. Tutsi Baha'is and
Hutu Baha'is are the only hope for Rwanda. As I said before, only
Baha'u'llah can provide the healing of humanity. I experienced first hand
this revelation in middle of critical time of disunity, so I know it's
power, this faith is nothing but a miracle for the world.

have
Muslims
of how

This is a good point. And again I believe that the power of love and
compassion of Christianity can't eradicate all the major problems facing the
world. A new medicine need to be applied as the the Manifestation of this
age said. A more powerful degree of love and compassion need to be applied.
In this case the Power of Unity need to be taught and experienced when
people from different culture and religion are living side by side in this
age of communication.. So that's when the revelation of Baha'u'llah comes in
picture  to bring a high degree of love and compassion through it's teaching
of the power of Unity and understanding of the needs of humankind.

Peace
Adelard


text:
Mr Mahdi <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
few
time
from,
have
Muslims
of how

LOL Mahdi,

Can we crosspost this everywhere now as an example of
"muslim hatespeech", like you just did with the sayings
of one "Joel Smith".

"Anti-Christian hate-speech by A. Muslim".

Nice one!

Paul


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
"Randy Burns" <[email]> wrote in message news:<2b8Q8.65149$[email]>...

I like it.  And let's remember that the freedom to choose is the
freedom to choose rightly OR wrongly.  Remember that Hitler was
elected.
Also, the power to choose entails accountability for that choice.  If
the Palestinians choose to continue along the path of terrorism,
heedless of the cliff at the end of that road, they should not enjoy
the support of Western sympathizers, but rather, endure their
reproach, which might eventually save them from disaster.
As for building businesses among the Palestinians, that would be an
excellent idea.  But it would take courage.  Success engenders envy,
and among the thugs in the PA, envy breeds murder.
Unfortunately, the PA profits from the misery of the Palestinian
people.


text:
On 22 Jun 2002 19:31:16 -0700, [email] (Denis Giron)
posted in alt.atheism:

The U. S., by ratified treaty, is NOT a Christian nation.

Name some Moslem leaders who didn't.


text:
Denis Giron <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<r6SQ8.48622$[email]>...
guys

The USA is most definitely a Christian nation - however, the
Italians and the Germans, both also Christian nations, might
take except to the claim to be eclipsed in greatness by
the USA.

How come "the bad guys" turned out to _also_ be Christian
in that shining hour of glory JT is so proud of?

NAZIS

Ireland remained neutral in the war, in the 30s, there were many
Nazi sympathisers, and actual joiners amongst the ranks of
Germany's eventual enemies.  For example, some think that
the King of England himself supported Nazi policies in those
days.

WWII

I don't see how this incorrect fact should be leading you to
draw Islamophobic conclusions.  So what?  If they were
all Yankee's fans, would that tell us anything important
about Islam?  Most Islamic nations are mad about
cricket - but that's down to the legacy of the British
Empire, rather than some effect of Islam.

Paul


author: Mark Elderkin

text:
As he has so many times before......... Adelard has hit the nail on the
head.  Adelard seems to have a great sense of spirituality about him.  As is
always the case....... being Christian or a Baha'i is a state of action and
not merely a category. I would like to suggest that those who have managed
to kill, torture and pillage those people who may have different ethnic
values or backgrounds are certainly not representing any teachings of Christ
or Mohammed that I'm aware of. When you step out of the realm of spiritual
values and into the sub-human characteristics of greed.... lust ...... and
striving of power, then you certainly don't maintain the title of Christian
or Muslem or Baha'i.  The greatest evil in the world is the evil commited in
the name of Allah........
Mark

Mahdi said:."........killed and raped by the Christian Serbs in Bosnia and
Kosovo were a sign
Adelkard said:   " This is a good point. And again I believe that the power
of love and
the
applied.
in
teaching


author: Brian Walker

text:
Paul, you are toying with the "man" - displaying him for a buffoon!

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:22:27 +0800, Paul Hammond wrote:

snip

I do so love to watch when Mudd-ette appears on the scene. He is living
proof of the difficulty of establishing brain death. Does anyone know if
he has all his organs still?

Brian


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
"Robert Arvay" <[email]> wrote in message

Interestingly, that is EXACTLY what the internal enemies of Arafat and the
Palestinian Authority, i.e. HAMAS and Islamic Jihad, say about it as well.


text:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:51:29 +0100, "Paul Hammond"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

Proof?  (Strong enough to overturn an official document that says that
we're not?)


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
Greetings;

"Freethought110" <[email]> wrote in message news:<newscache$ph71yg$azf1$[email]>...

I'm not sure what the point is.  So, if Hamas says that the PA is
holding on to power by keeping the Palestinian people in poverty--- ?


text:
There's a big difference in stating the US is a Christian nation as opposed
to the US being a Christian _state_. In the first case we're speaking of a
preponderant social/cultural-religious adherence in the US, in the second
we're speaking of the formal instituional juridical-political governmental
mechanisms which constitute the US as a state. Paul is therefore technically
right and even Alexis De Tocqueville conceded that much about America.


text:
Al Klein <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Oh, please!  Look at any survey of the religions of the USA,
and you'll find that somewhere around 90% at least will
identify as "Christian", the USA, unlike the UK for example,
is a country where most people think that God and
relgion is important.

"Official document"?  You mean the constitution, right?  Well,
that only guarantees a person's freedom of religion - but
sociologically speaking, the USA is a Christian nation. IMV,
the *most* Christian of the western nations.

In which other western democracy do we find politicians
who would be President campaigning from churches, and
praying on the campaign trail?

Anyway, my point is that the original poster cannot make
a simple equation of "Christian= good" while calling the
Nazis the "bad guys" - like their problem was not coming
from a Christian nation.

Paul


subject: Re: Jew-Bashing

text:
"Robert Arvay" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
the
well.

Your overall perspective on this conflict is so typical of a provincial
(nay, hick) uninformed American Christian fundamentalist zealot simpleton
WASP brainwashed rightwing Republican goon, like your hero (the illegitimate
(p)resident of 1600 Pennsylvannia Avenue) words do not begin to express your
utter ignorance of the players and actors nor the complexity of the issues
of this conflict. You parrot lines from the American corporate media
propaganda machine such as the crappola that is daily churned out by
Murdoch's FOX news network, on the one hand, as if it is the truth without
in anyway realizing that you have no idea what you are talking about but are
merely regurgitating a rehearsed and simplistic party-line; then pronounce
slogans and platitudes of a nature which might as well have come out of the
offices of HAMAS and Islamic Jihad, on the other. In other words you have
your head so far up where the sun doesn't shine that you are looking at the
other end sounding like the Islamic fundamentalists. You don't seem to
understand something as basic as the fact that the Palestinian Authority is
composed of multiple actors with diverse approaches, not just Yasser Arafat
and his al-Fatah, some of whom are as against the suicide bombings and
violence (and have been from the beginning of this second Intifadah) than
any Israeli. You lump the PA, just as that war criminal fascist Ariel Sharon
does, into a single bloc, not realizing their are people in the PA (such as
Ashrawi or Barakat, to name just two) who are mortal enemies of the
religious fascists who intiate the terrorism. Then you have the temerity,
without any knowledge of the complex facts, to blame the economic woes of
the Palestinian people on this Palestinian Authority, in no way realizing
that the PA has only been constituted since 1994, and that these economic
problems which have impoverished the people of Palestine have causes which
go back to 1948 and prior. Do you geddit, Mr fundie? Probably not.

God willing, if there is a god, those Americans with a conscience will show
George Dumbya Shrub the door and he will be ousted from office come November
2004 so that the rest of the world can get on with it and will no longer
have to put up with the jerk-off Christian fascist idiots and their screwey
agenda of fascizing this world like you people have been doing since January
20th 2001.

HAIL TO THE THIEF!


text:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:51:44 GMT, "Freethought110"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

The Treaty of Tripoli to which the U. S. is a party, states, "As the
government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded
on the Christian Religion ..."


text:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:17:27 +0100, "Paul Hammond"
<[email]> posted in alt.atheism:

So now opinions of people on the street determine the form of our
government?

"The U. S. is not a Christian nation" doesn't mean that the majority
of its citizens don't consider themselves Christians, so the number
who do so consider themselves has nothing at all to do with the
matter.

No, I mean the 11th article of the Treaty of Tripoli, as ratified by
the Congress of the United States..

A nation of Christians, yes.  Whether Weimar Germany was a Christian
nation I can't say.