text:
"Adam H." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
haven't
memos?

Well, let's see. You admit there is no evidence to show they are real....and
the question of their validity has been raised. Hence it is the obligation
of those that wish to introduce these documents to established their
authenticity.


author: Ray Fischer

subject: Re: Boston Globe: Authenticity Backed On Bush Documents

text:
Scout <[email]> wrote:

And Killian didn't type the memos.

That says nothing about whther they were his.

And people sign documents to indicate that they concur with the
contents.


author: Adam H.

text:
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:46:46 -0400, "Scout"
<[email]> wrote:

But for those who maintain that they are definitely forgeries there is
also a burden of proof.

Lacking proof of authenticity does not allow one to honestly conclude
they are necessarily fake.

---
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful,
and so are we. They never stop thinking about
new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we."

President George W. Bush.


author: Scout

text:
"Ray Fischer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ci8kpj$d5b$[email]...
introducing

And neither did his secretary. So who did?


text:
"Adam H." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
introducing
real....and
obligation

True, but as time goes on, it seems more and more like that is the case.

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

True, but it also doesn't establish there are authentic. As such reasonable
doubt lies with the defendant, and he wins by default.


author: rexcurrydotnet

subject: EU to ban USA's pledge of allegiance?

text:
Wow, somebody emailed this in.  Is it true? Either way it is
eye-popping.

BRUSSELS, Belgium - The recent EU proposal to ban Nazi symbols might
include the USA's pledge of allegiance.

EU Justice and Home Affairs Commissioner Franco Frattini has proposed a
Europe-wide ban on display of Nazi symbols.  A group of European Union
lawmakers called then for a ban on other symbols of oppression,
including the red star and the hammer and sickle. Another new proposal
bans the USA's pledge of allegiance to its flag.

"If we decide to ban one, we should decide to ban all of them,"
said Jan Zahradil, a Czech member of the EU assembly.

"Most Americans are ignoramuses about their pledge as a Nazi symbol
and that it was the origin of the straight-arm salute of the Nazis,"
a spokesman said.

He added that the ban would not apply in the USA but only in the EU.

"The ban may not be necessary in that the USA's pledge is a bizarre
ritual that is already shunned by every other country.  We don't want
it to happen here," He said "Or we don't want it to happen here
AGAIN.  It already happened once."

Even in the USA some action was taken against the pledge in 1942, but
only the original straight-arm salute was changed.

"Many Europeans know more about the USA's pledge than does the
typical U.S. citizen.  That is because U.S. schools teach propaganda
and never show historic photographs," said Tomas Corbisier pointing
to a web image search for the "original socialist salute."

"The only reason the pledge continues in the USA is because the U.S.
government hides the truth," Corbisier added.

The USA's pledge was created by Francis Bellamy, a self-proclaimed
national socialist in the USA and an advocate of "military
socialism."  At that time government schools in the U.S. imposed
segregation by law and taught racism as official government policy. It
happened for three decades in the USA before the National Socialist
German Workers' Party (Nazis) adopted the salute and similar
behavior.

In the past, U.S. schools expelled and jailed people who refused to
pledge until the U.S. supreme court enjoined the punishments. "But
there are many people who disagree with the court decision and there
are many laws that require teachers to try to lead a daily robotic
chant of the pledge in military formation like Pavlov's lapdogs of
the state," he added.


subject: Re: EU to ban USA's pledge of allegiance?

text:
But a web search for "Jan Zahradil" with the word "ban" gives multiple
articles with the quote.

This part is completely wrong and it is ironic that it supports the
quote about Americans being ignoramuses about their own pledge and its
author: "Francis Bellamy was just a Christian socialist, actually what
we would call today a "progressive socialist."  He died in 1931, long
before Nazism became important.  So he came before National Socialism."

Francis Bellamy was not "just" a Christian socialist, nor his cohort
and cousin Edward Bellamy.  They both distributed the "Nationalist"
magazine and operated the "Nationalist Educational Association"
http://rexcurry.net/pledgeapology.html

Francis died in 1931.  The National Socialist German Workers' Party
had been in existence since 1920 (with electoral breakthroughs in 1930
and dictatorship in 1933).
So Francis lived long enough to see his salute used by the National
Socialist German Workers Party for 11 years and I am still researching
whether he like it or not.

It is unclear whether the writer intends to dispute the fact that the
pledge used a straight-arm salute for 3 decades before it was adopted
by the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html

Further, the National Socialist German Workers' Party was not the first
example of National Socalism by a long shot.

And Edward and Francis explicitly commented on their admiration for the
military and that it inspired their socialist views of wanting to
impose the "military" system on all of society so that food, clothing,
shelter and all goods and services would "enjoy" the efficiency of the
military model.   I have to go now as I am going to be ill again.


author: James A. Doemer

text:
"rexcurrydotnet" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Interesting.  I have a photo from 1924 where my Grandfather is in a
classroom while saying the Pledge of Allegiance.  This was, of course,
before the Pledge was modified to include "Under God", which happened in
1956.  He was in about the 6th or 7th grade and with all of his classmates.
They all had their hand over their hearts, not a straight armed salute.
Could you provide some evidence that this happened?  Thank you very much.


text:
Regarding historic photos of the actual straight-arm salute there are
many examples linked  http://rexcurry.net/pledge1.html


author: Philip Davidson

text:
talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.liberalism
James A. Doemer wrote:
in
of
and
of us
Ironically, I

Meine freye Absicht hält keinen besondern Lauf, sondern bewegt sich
selbst in einer weiten See von Wachs; keine gesäurte Bosheit vergiftet
ein einziges Comma in dem Lauf den ich halte: sondern er fliegt einen
Adler-Flug, kühn, in einem fort, und läßt keine Spur zurük.

Mahler. Wie soll ich euch verstehen?

Poet. Ich will es euch aufrigeln. Ihr seht wie alle Stände, wie alle
Arten von Leute, sowohl die von glatter und schlüpfriger als die von
spröder und herber Beschaffenheit, ihre Dienste zu den Füssen des
Lord Timon legen: Sein grosser Reichthum, der an seiner leutseligen und
gütigen Gemüthsart hängt, überwältigt alle Arten von Herzen, und
macht sie zu seinen freywilligen Unterthanen; ja, von dem
Spiegelartigen Schmeichler bis zum Apemanthus, der wenige Dinge so sehr
liebt als sich selbst zu verabscheuen; aber auch dieser gießt sich auf
die Knie vor ihm hin, und kehrt vergnügt, und durch ein Kopfniken des
Timons, in seinen Gedanken, höchst glüklich von ihm zurük.

Mahler. Ich sah sie mit einander reden.

Poet. Ich dichte also das Glük, auf einem hohen und anmuthigen Hügel
gethront. Der Fuß des Berges ist mit allen Arten von Personen und
Verdiensten dicht umgeben, die sich bestreben sich auf dem Busen dieser
Sphäre festzusezen. Unter allen diesen Wesen, deren Augen auf diese
allgewaltige Beherrscherin geheftet sind, personificire ich einen in
Timons Gestalt, den Fortuna mit ihrer elfenbeinernen Hand zu sich
winkt, und durch diese Gunst in ebendemselben Augenblik alle seine
Nebenbuhler zu seinen Dienern und Sclaven macht.

Mahler. Eine mahlerische Idee! Dieser Thron, diese Fortuna und dieser
Hügel, mit einem Manne, dem aus den übrigen untenstehenden
emporgewinkt wird, und der sein Haupt gegen den schrofen Berg beugt, um
zu seinem Glük hinaufzuklettern, würde, nach unsrer Kunst, wohl
ausgesonnen seyn.

Poet. Nein, hört mich nur weiter: Alle diese, die so kürzlich erst
seines gleichen waren, einige besser als er, folgen in diesem Augenblik
seinen Schritten, drängen sich aufwartsam um ihn her, regnen
flüsternde Schmeichlereyen in sein Ohr, machen sogar seine Schuhriemen
zu einem Heiligthum, und trinken die freye Luft durch ihn.

Mahler. Zum Henker, was wollt ihr mit diesen?

Poet. Sobald nun Fortuna, in einem Anstoß von Wankelmuth den, der kaum
ihr Liebling war, mit Füssen tritt; so seht ihr, wie alle seine
Verehrer, die mit Knien und Händen sich auf den Gipfel des Berges
hinaufarbeiteten, ihn hinunter schlüpfen lassen, ohne daß nur ein
einziger seinen ausglitschenden Fuß begleiten wollte.

Mahler. Das ist gemein; ich kan euch tausend moralische Gemählde
zeigen, die dergleichen plözliche Glüks-Streiche weit lebhafter
vorstellen sollen, als Worte. Doch thut ihr wohl, dem Lord Timon zu
zeigen, daß es schon begegnet ist, daß erniedrigte Augen den Fuß
über dem Kopf gesehen haben. * Unser Autor hat, wie der Augenschein
zeigt, seinen Poeten in diesem Stüke zu einem schlechten Kerl gemacht.
Damit sein Charakter aber nicht der Profeßion selbst nachtheilig sey,
so hat er ihn zu einem eben so schlechten Poeten gemacht, als er ein
schlechter Mann ist. Ein untrügliches Kennzeichen von dem falschen
Geschmak und unreiffen Urtheil, so er ihm beylegt, ist seine Liebe zu
allem was seltsam, erstaunlich und abentheurlich, und eine Verachtung
alles dessen, was gewöhnlich oder der Natur gemäß ist. Warbürton.

(Inspicere tanquam in speculum jubeo)-- (Terent.)

Zweyte Scene. (Trompeten. Timon tritt auf, und wendet sich auf eine
leutselige Art an die verschiednen Personen, die ihm die Aufwartung
machen.)

Timon (zu einem Boten.) Er sizt im Gefängniß, sagt ihr?

Bote. Ja, gnädiger Herr; Seine Schulden belauffen sich auf fünf
Talente, seine Mittel sind sehr knapp, seine Glaubiger sehr dringend;
er bittet euch, an diejenige, die ihn eingesezt haben, zu seinem Behuf
zu schreiben, und würde ohne allen Trost seyn, wenn ihr ihm diese
Gunst versagen würdet.

Timon. Der edle Ventidius! Gut! Ich bin nicht von der Art, meinen
Freund zu verlassen, wenn er meiner am meisten nöthig hat.


text:
talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.liberalism
James A. Doemer wrote:
talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.
is
armed
like
true.
sich
vergiftet
einen
(Sie sezen sich.)

Lucius. Wir sind immer davon überzeugt gewesen.

Apemanthus. Ho, ho, überzeugt gewesen? Daß ihr gehangen wär't!

Timon. Ha, Apemanthus! Ihr seyd willkommen.

Apemanthus. Ich will es aber nicht seyn; ich komme nur, daß du mich
zur Thüre hinausstossest.

Timon. Pfui, wie grob du bist! Ihr habt da einen Humor angenommen, der
einem Mann nicht gut läßt; es ist gar nicht hübsch. Man sagt sonst,
meine Herren, (ira furor brevis est), aber dieser Mann dort ist immer
entrüstet.

Apemanthus. Laß mich auf deine Gefahr da bleiben, Timon; ich komme,
Beobachtungen zu machen, ich will dich gewarnt haben.

Timon. Und ich gebe dir keine Acht; du bist ein Athenienser, und also
willkommen; ich möchte für mich selbst kein Vermögen haben--Ich
bitte dich, laß meine Schüsseln dich zum Stillschweigen bringen.

Apemanthus. Ich verschmähe deine Schüsseln; ich wollt' eher dran
erworgen, eh ich dir jemals schmeicheln wollte. O ihr Götter, wieviel
Leute essen den Timon, und er sieht sie nicht! Es schmerzt mich, ihrer
so viele zu sehen, die ihren Bissen in eines einzigen Mannes Blut
tauchen; und das unsinnigste ist, daß er sie noch dazu aufmuntert.
Mich wundert nur, daß es Menschen giebt, die sich bey andern Menschen
sicher halten. Sie sollten einander ohne Messer einladen, es wäre gut
für ihre Schüsseln, und sichrer für ihr Leben. An Beyspielen fehlt
es nicht; der Bursche, zum Exempel, der hier zu nächst an ihm sizt,
das Brodt mit ihm theilt, und thut als ob er auch den Athem mit ihm
theilen wollte, ist alle Augenblike bereitwillig, ihm einen Dolch in
das Herz zu stossen. Es sind Beweise davon da. Wär' ich ein grosser
Herr, ich hätte das Herz nicht zu trinken, aus Furcht, sie möchten
ausspähen, wo sie meiner Luftröhre am besten beykommen könnten;
grosse Herren sollten nicht anders trinken, als mit einem Harnisch um
ihre Gurgel.

Timon (indem er dem Lucullus zutrinkt.) Milord, von Herzen; laßt die
Gesundheit herumgehen.

Lucullus. Laßt sie diesen Weg gehen, mein werthester Lord.

Apemanthus. Diesen Weg gehen--Ein braver Kerl; er weiß die Zeit wol in
Acht zu nehmen; diese Gesundheiten werden noch machen, daß du und dein
Vermögen die Schwindsucht kriegen werden, Timon.

(Er langt ein Stük Brodt und einen Krug mit Wasser aus seiner Tasche.)

Hier ist etwas, das zu schwach ist, ein Sünder zu seyn, ehrliches
Wasser, das noch niemand in den Schuld-Thurm gebracht hat. Mein Essen
schikt sich zu meinem Trank--

(Er stellt sich hin, das Tisch-Gebett zu sprechen.)

Gastmähler sind zu stolz, den Göttern Dank zu sagen.

Apemanthus (betet:) (Ihr Götter, ich spreche euch um keine
Reichthümer an, denn ich achte sie für Quark; ich bitte für niemand,
als mich selbst. Verleihet, daß ich niemals so ein guter Narr werde,
einem Mann auf seinen Eyd zu trauen, oder einer Hure auf ihre Thränen,
oder einem Hund, der zu schlafen scheint, oder meinen Freunden, wenn
ich ihrer nöthig habe; Amen, Amen.) Izt zugegriffen! Reiche Leute
sündigen, und ich esse Wurzeln.

Timon. General Alcibiades, mich däucht, euer Herz ist diesen Augenblik
im Felde.

Alcibiades. Mein Herz ist allenthalben zu euern Diensten, Milord.

Timon. Ihr wäret lieber bey einem Frühstük von Feinden, als bey
einem Mittag-Essen von Freunden gewesen.

Alcibiades. Wenn sie so frisch bluten, so ist kein besseres Gericht als
sie; ich wollte meinen Freund zu einem solchen Schmaus wünschen.*

Apemanthus. Ich wollte also, daß alle diese Schmarozer deine Feinde
wären, damit du sie umbrächtest, und mich darauf zu Gaste bätest.

Lucullus. Möchten wir nur das Glük haben, Milord, daß ihr uns einmal
durch etwas auf die Probe sezen wolltet, wobey wir euch unsre
Ergebenheit in etwas zeigen könnten; es würde uns nichts mehr zu
wünschen übrig bleiben.

Timon. O, meine guten Freunde, ich zweifle keinen Augenblik, daß die
Götter für Gelegenheiten gesorgt haben, wo ich eben so viel Hülfe
von euch erhalten werde; wie wäret ihr sonst meine Freunde gewesen?
Warum trüget ihr diesen herzrührenden Namen, vor tausenden, wenn ihr
mein Herz nicht näher angienget? Ich habe über diesen Punct mehr von
euch zu mir selbst gesagt, als ihr mit Bescheidenheit zu euerm eignen
Behuf sagen könntet.


text:
It wasn't so much regional as that all schools did not take orders from
the federal government nor did they seem to strive to all be the same
mediocrity of government as they strive today.  There were more
non-government schools then too. You said that you I have a picture
from 1924 which shows a classroom of kids reciting the pledge with
their hands over their hearts and I would greatly appreciate having a
copy if you can either copy or better yet, scan it and email it.  If
this is possible then please communicate with me at rexy (at) ij.net

It is also possible that the photo you have is of only the beginning of
the pledge.  the original pledge used a military salute that then
extended outward with the right hand in the style later adopted by the
National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Some schools did not like
the military salute part early on and replaced it with a hand over the
heart that then stretched outward in the "Nazi-style."

You said "I know the pledge was written in 1892, by Francis Bellamy,
who I also know was a socialist minister."  That is correct, and if you
look a tad farther then it is not difficult to learn his actual
description of that pledge in 1892 (with the straight armed salute).
It is also on my site at http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html

Congratulations on your comment that "I myself am 62 years old, and my
father is 83, and neither of us have ever heard of a straight armed
salute
in U.S. Public schools" (as to your ages), however, during the rise of
the National Socialist German Workers' Party the straight arm salute
was becoming so awkward that in 1942 Congress passed an act attempting
to change the salute from the straight-arm to the hand over the heart
(which as you note did exist also).   The US had entered WWII on
December 7, 1941 against Japan after Pearl Harbor.  On December 11,
1942 Germany and Italy declared war on the United States and the U.S.
declared war on Germany and Italy.


author: W. D. Allen Sr.

text:
"...their pledge as a Nazi symbol and that it was the origin of the
straight-arm salute of the Nazis...."

Does such tripe actually get published in Europe?

I was one of those kids decades ago who made the pledge each morning. It was
made with the right hand over the heart until the word "flag" was spoken, at
which time the right arm was extended to the flag with the palm UP, not
down, as in the NAZI salute!

It's no wonder the EU can't get it stuff together enough to even compete
with the USA, with such mindless fools like as this group of "lawmakers"!

"Tis wiser to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and prove it
true!"

WDA

end

"rexcurrydotnet" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...


text:
talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.liberalism
rexcurrydotnet wrote:
from
of
the
the
you
my
of
attempting

`I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of
escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.'

`You were always a good friend to me,' said Scrooge. `Thank 'ee!'

`You will be haunted,' resumed the Ghost, `by Three Spirits.'

Scrooge's countenance fell almost as low as the Ghost's had done.

`Is that the chance and hope you mentioned, Jacob?' he demanded, in a
faltering voice.

`It is.'

`I--I think I'd rather not,' said Scrooge.

`Without their visits,' said the Ghost, `you cannot hope to shun the
path I tread. Expect the first tomorrow, when the bell tolls One.'

`Couldn't I take `em all at once, and have it over, Jacob?' hinted
Scrooge.

`Expect the second on the next night at the same hour. The third upon
the next night when the last stroke of Twelve has ceased to vibrate.
Look to see me no more; and look that, for your own sake, you remember
what has passed between us!'

When it had said these words, the spectre took its wrapper from the
table, and bound it round its head, as before. Scrooge knew this, by
the smart sound its teeth made, when the jaws were brought together by
the bandage. He ventured to raise his eyes again, and found his
supernatural visitor confronting him in an erect attitude, with its
chain wound over and about its arm.

The apparition walked backward from him; and at every step it took, the
window raised itself a little, so that when the spectre reached it, it
was wide open. It beckoned Scrooge to approach, which he did. When they
were within two paces of each other, Marley's Ghost held up its hand,
warning him to come no nearer. Scrooge stopped.

Not so much in obedience, as in surprise and fear: for on the raising
of the hand, he became sensible of confused noises in the air;
incoherent sounds of lamentation and regret; wailings inexpressibly
sorrowful and self-accusatory. The spectre, after listening for a
moment, joined in the mournful dirge;and floated out upon the bleak,
dark night.

Scrooge followed to the window: desperate in his curiosity. He looked
out.

The air was filled with phantoms, wandering hither and thither in
restless haste, and moaning as they went. Every one of them wore chains
like Marley's Ghost; some few (they might be guilty governments) were
linked together; none were free. Many had been personally known to
Scrooge in their lives. He had been quite familiar with one old ghost,
in a white waistcoat, with a monstrous iron safe attached to its ankle,
who cried piteously at being unable to assist a wretched woman with an
infant, whom it saw below, upon a door-step. The misery with them all
was, clearly, that they sought to interfere, for good, in human
matters, and had lost the power for ever.

Whether these creatures faded into mist, or mist enshrouded them, he
could not tell. But they and their spirit voices faded together; and
the night became as it had been when he walked home.

Scrooge closed the window, and examined the door by which the Ghost had
entered. It was double-locked, as he had locked it with his own hands,
and the bolts were undisturbed. He tried to say `Humbug!' but stopped
at the first syllable. And being, from the emotion he had undergone, or
the fatigues of the day, or his glimpse of the Invisible World, or the
dull conversation of the Ghost, or the lateness of the hour, much in
need of repose; went straight to bed, without undressing, and fell
asleep upon the instant.

Stave 2: The First of the Three Spirits

When Scrooge awoke, it was so dark, that looking out of bed, he could
scarcely distinguish the transparent window from the opaque walls of
his chamber. He was endeavouring to pierce the darkness with his ferret
eyes, when the chimes of a neighbouring church struck the four
quarters. So he listened for the hour.

To his great astonishment the heavy bell went on from six to seven, and
from seven to eight, and regularly up to twelve; then stopped. Twelve.
It was past two when he went to bed. The clock was wrong


author: Paul Schmitz-Josten

text:
rexcurrydotnet wrote on 17 Feb 2005 07:49:03 -0800 in
<[email]>:

<snip>

I could not find such topic in German and European internet sources.

Paul


text:
talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.liberalism
W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
It was
spoken, at
not
compete
"lawmakers"!
prove it
might
proposed a
Union
proposal
Nazis,"
EU.
want
but
propaganda
U.S.
It
(Nazis)talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.liberalism
adopted the salute and similar
there

"USA's pledge of allegiance".

When did  Europeans or Asians or even some fucking alien
pledge allegiance to America?

No you're right I  was reading it in the paper
all painters and decorators are going to be banned
because holding their arm out looks like a Nazi gesture

Hey Mr painter and decorator SIEG HEIL!!!
SIEG HEIL

I better be careful they don't put my dog down
because it likes to shake hands SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL
SIEG HEIL

http://www.tv-ark.org.uk/childrens/c-itv/dangermouse1982.rm

_____________________________
ID signature
Philip Davidson,
10 Ronald Avenue
West Ham
E15 3AH
East London
Phone:  ( 020 ) 511 9341
Mobile phone 07906821566


text:
It is unfortunate that there is a LOT more to it then your school
taught
http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html

http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html


text:
It is unfortunate that there is a LOT more to it then simply the
salute, there  is also terrifying philosophy behind it and ominous
parallels that remain to this day

http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html

http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html

http://rexcurry.net/pledge1.html


author: Julian D.

text:
On 17 Feb 2005 07:49:03 -0800, "rexcurrydotnet" <[email]> wrote:

If true, I hope the Democrats run with this.  They can point to the
UN's 'wisdom' as their guiding light.
The Congress and the Presidency will be Republican forever.

JD

"On the other hand, I think sometimes I take kind of a delight
in who the critics are."
-President George W. Bush
Time's Person Of The Year
2004

"The course of this nation does not depend on the decisions of
others."
-President George W. Bush
SOA
2003

 "... by 2013, payroll taxes will no longer
be sufficient to cover monthly payments. And by 2032, the
trust fund will be exhausted, and Social Security will be
unable to pay out the full benefits older Americans have
been promised."

Bill Clinton
1998 State of the Union


author: [redacted]

text:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It will be eye-popping if bits have been cut-out of the news report.

It's a pity somebody didn't email the www link to the original report.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


author: Lucile Wilson

text:
Why would anyone be saying the Pledge of Alliegence in Europe unless
they were Embassy personel or there were private American schools or
corporations.


text:
It seems like the pledge would be treated like the the swastika - it
cannot be shown nor any representation of it (photographs, pictures,
art, movies, news), including of course the original straight arm
salute.  Of course, I suppose at Olympic games and such would be
another place where it would no longer be allowed even by people who
want to do it.


author: Delila

text:
"James A. Doemer" <[email]> wrote in message
news:kiaRd.2794$[email]...
classmates.
much.

  I have seen a picture where kids had their arms outstretched like Nazis in
my local newspaper a few years ago. So this part is true. Maybe they didn't
do it like that everywhere.

  D.


text:
rexcurrydotnet <[email]> wrote:

These pictures, while interesting, are not terribly compelling.  How would
you know that these kids are reciting the pledge?  Like I said, I have a
picture from 1924 which shows a classroom of kids reciting the pledge with
their hands over their hearts.   I know the pledge was written in 1892, by
Francis Bellamy, who I also know was a socialist minister.  Was the straight
armed salute perhaps a regional thing?   I myself am 62 years old, and my
father is 83, and neither of us have ever heard of a straight armed salute
in U.S. Public schools.


text:
Philip Davidson <[email]> wrote:
talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german,alt.politics.republican,alt.
politics.bush,alt.politics.liberalism

Babbling, even in German, is still Babbling Philip.


author: Steven L.

text:
Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:

I think it's a hoax.

Somebody is trying to shaft Frattini, perhaps because of the strong
stand they're taking against Nazism.


text:
Steven L. schrieb am Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:32:44 GMT in
<MOvRd.617$[email]>:

(a hoax)

In the light of that it is interesting what the site "rexcurry.net" says
which the OP "rexcurrydotnet" offers for explanation:
|Francis Bellamy and his cousin and cohort, the author Edward Bellamy, were
|self-proclaimed national socialists in the U.S. who promoted "military socialism"
(<http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html>)

Therefore I agree that "rexcurrydotnet" might have "mailed" this stuff to
himself.

So it's just a troll and a homepage promotion, IMHO.

Ciao,

Paul


text:
Delila <[email]> wrote:

It must have been regional.   I'm 62, and my father is 83, and neithe of us
have ever heard of a straight armed salute for the pledge.   Ironically, I
live in an area which was has a large German decendant population.


text:
Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:

Thank you!
I will simply killfile this entire subject, and not discuss it further.


author: D. Ashley Hill

subject: Re: FOR AMP MAN

text:
"S.T. Dees" wrote:

Hill wrote:

You've got to be kidding.   Nobody with any common sense would consider a
hysterectomy on a 5 pound cat to be analogous to a hysterectomy on a 340 pound
woman.  Please refer to my previous post regarding the difficulty of human
hysterectomy compared to small animal hysterectomy.

I've seen a number of small animal hysterectomies, although not in the last 3
years, and they were simplistic compared to human hysterectomies.  Have you ever
performed a human hysterectomy, or even observed one?  The cat hysterectomy I
saw was a 1-clamper.  This is not possible with humans.

Sorry.  Give me a minute.  I'm cleaning up the margarita I just spit all over
computer laughing at this absolutely foolish statement.  If I ever need my gall
bladder out I'll be sure to give you a call.

Yep.  Except the human uterus is about 40 times larger than the cat uterus, the
blood vessels are larger, the incision is tremendously larger, and the potential
for damage to the ureters, bladder, and GI tract is greater.  Honestly, this is
ridiculous.  Cat = human.  You're convincing a lot of folks on this group, I'm
sure.

Many government guidlelines are useful and important.  My point is that the
complexity is significantly higher for human hysterectomies than small animal
hysterectomies.

Now you have clearly shown that you are not a gynecologist, at least not an
expert one.  A tough vaginal morcellation of a large, fibroid uterus can take a
few hours.  Sure, I can do a vaginal hysterectomy in 20 minutes for a
normal-size, prolapsed uterus, but that's easy.  A tough laparoscopic
hysterectomy using even a battery-powered morecellator can take a few hours.  I
did a laparoscopic hysterectomy yesterday for a patient with an enlarged uterus
with multiple varicosities and somewhat unusual anatomy.  It took just shy of 3
hours.  She went home 5 hours later, and when I called her she was using only
ibuprofen for pain.  Does your vet perform similar surgery?

I wasn't either.  I was talking about post-op rounds, not generally required
after small animal hysterectomy.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here.  Doctors don't own hospitals.  We
run medical practices, where the overhead (for ob/gyn practices) is on average
about 53-56 percent).  Ob/gyn physicians pay for rent, power, equipment,
salaries, insurance, etc., just as you describe.

Wow.  This group just gets stranger and stranger.  I've heard some bizarre
comments on this group, but this is in the top 4.  I don't see any hope of
common ground between us.  To be honest, your comments are totally without
logic.  Current hysterectomy reimbursement in our area is at 1965 levels.  Many
ob/gyns in our area are refusing to do surgery, because they lose money doing
it.  They cannot make up the office overhead, malpractice, etc., as I
described.  To suggest that most in-hospital surgery is lucrative for the doctor
at this stage is just plain incorrect.

Ashley
D. Ashley Hill, MD
Orlando, FL


author: S.T. Dees

subject: Re: FOR AMP MAN/FOR ASHLEY ON SURGEONS FEES

text:
In article <[email]>, [email] says...

No- I'm not.  Between 1975 and 1984 I routinely did hysterectomies on
sheep (40 KG), about the same size as a small woman.  Procedure of course
involves laparotomy; ligation of vessels and uterine neck at the vagina;
and closure by layers of the abdominal cavity.  Don't tell me
about how extra complicated it is because it is a person.

There is extra care that must be taken, and that by the anesthesia folks.
As for the 3 hour hysterectomy, did someone put a rent in the bladder?
Gut?  Never bother to tell  the patient?  Just come out and say, gee this
was a tough one... and add bunches to the bill?

 Nobody with any common sense would consider a

Please see above. TV has given the public a misguided impression of the
complexities of surgery, and the MDs have taken great advantage of that
misinformation to milk the public for excessive fees.

ever

No, I've not seen one on a human.  See above.  The anatomy is comparable.
THe complexity is comparable.  BTW, I watched a really interesting
video of an oral surgeon repairing a cleft palate.  Fascinating.  Mostly
accomplished with simple interrupted sutures and one or two well placed
mattress sutures.  I'm sick of hearing all the hype about how technically
difficult human surgery is.  Some is of course.  BUT...

I'm not laughing.  Let's switch from hysterectomy to e.g., ileostomy.
In a research setting I routinely did what are called thiry-vella fistulas.
These require end-to-end anastomoses and the isolated U shaped intestinal
segment is sutured to the body wall.  Not that different than the
technique for say, an ileostomy.

Go puke on your computer if you like. It is high time someone stands up
and tells it like it is.  The methodology is NOT that complex.
The ripoff, in terms of surgeons charges is outlandish.

  If I ever need my gall

Now that one ISmore complex.  The one and only time I mucked about
in that area, trying to put a canula in the hepatic vein, my sheep  went
to sheep heaven.

What does size have to do with it?  DO you charge by the pound?

 the

Good, you can see them and put a ligature on them.

the incision is tremendously larger,

So, it takes a few minutes longer to close, big deal!

 and the potential

Huh?  THese dangers exist no matter what species is undergoing the surgery.

 Honestly, this is
the pricing currently in vogue; and gets away with the exaggerations
about how tough their work is.
\

Don't think I ever said I was. Three hours is a very long time and
indicates really major headaches.

 at least not an
a

Well, would you do that for $60.00;  $160.00 -- assuming all other
costs are covered including insurance?  I think not.  That is the
problem .   You, as so many others, are spoiled.  You think you should
get wealthy on the misery of others.  Marcio I suspect would be tickled if he
could get $160.00 for 20 minutes time.

 A tough laparoscopic
I
uterus

I've no experience with a laparoscope.  Yes, UNUSUAL anatomy can make
you earn your living.  On that I will agree.  And that is something
I think most people don't appreciate-- the extent to which anatomical
variation occurs- sometimes bizzare variations too.

 It took just shy of 3

My sheep were on their feet eating and drinking within minutes of removal
of the endotracheal tube?  Do your patients do that?

Oh, poor you, you are doing it for charity at 1965 payment levels. Sure!
I feel so sorry for you!

 Many
doctor

Somehow the above does not have the ring of truth to it.


author: George Conklin

subject: Re: FOR AMP MAN

text:
In article <[email]>,
D. Ashley Hill <[email]> wrote:

  The cat is much smaller and therefore much harder to work
on.

   As for malpractice, you could bill that separately and
thus break out the cost.  After all, you pay that not for
just surgery.

   Having said that, it is obvious that for your branch of
medicine, malpractice insurance weighs very heavily.


text:
In article <8sd281$qs6$[email]>, S.T. Dees <[email]> wrote:

   I wonder if Marcio is on vacation.

   Anyway, Vets invest just as much cost in their education
as physicians (of the human variety).

   Med students do graduate with horrible debt today.  One
friend of my youngest daughter is paying back $900 a month
on her loan while a resident.  I wonder how a Vet can do
that?

  My grandfather, a MD, lived to be 80 before he knew that
his stomach and intestines were 'upside down.'  He had onlyl
one kidney.  His digestion from bottom to top and then on
out.  My mother had interesting differences too in her
shoulders: they ended up in a textbook.


author: His Highness the TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher

subject: Where's the solidarity of the American Christians with the Mexican Christians?

text:
Mexico is deeply Christian, and so is America --the most Christian
nation in the civilized world-- which can invade countries, or can
simply give the word to the Mexican government to liberalize drugs and
thus starve the cartels at the source.

Mexicans are dying by truckloads and LIVING IN FEAR. Last night a
Mexican told me it's worse than Iraq. Indeed the level of cruelty
seems to be worse than the terrorists'.

Or are the American Christians willing to live in hypocrisy and ignore
the Mexican brothers before they wake up to reality and do what needs
to be done? Yes, LEGALIZE IT!

Though this video is unrelated to the topic, I'll put it here for its
sentimental value to touch the heart of the Christians...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NNZ4iZkIZA

(I support the Jalapeno Revolution --initiated by me)

-------------------------------------------------------

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION


subject:
Re: Where's the solidarity of the American Christians with the
 Mexican Christians?

text:
On Apr 23, 9:10 pm, Lil Abner <@Daisey.Maes> wrote:

Just tell them to decriminalize drugs while cracking down on those on
this side of the border selling guns to them.

I hope you understand that CHAOS down there can only bring MORE
immigrants.


text:
On Apr 23, 10:17 pm, Lil Abner <@Daisey.Maes> wrote:

Captain Gadget, perhaps.

Businessmen do it for the money, not for the love of the trade.

It worked with the Prohibition and it will work with
Decriminalization, if it brings prices to the bottom. Let the 6
million Americans who are into cocaine die of overdose if they wish.
Just educate the new generations and treat it like a plague.


text:
On Apr 24, 2:32 am, [email] (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Yeah, but they are not evil people per se. They are just prisoners of
their own traditions, like we are too!

By that token only followers of Tantra --like me-- are worth
saving. ;)


author: james g. keegan jr.

subject: Re: Gun control kills again

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "SaPeIsMa" <[email]> wrote:

you don't know what projecting is, do you?


author: SaPeIsMa

subject: Re: Gun control kills again

text:
"james g. keegan jr." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Actually I do
    I'm watching you do a lot of it
But that doesn't mean I'm doing it


subject: Re: Gun control kills again

text:
"james g. keegan jr." <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

It's something you two idiots do all the time


subject: Re: Gun control kills again

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "SaPeIsMa" <[email]> wrote:

then why did you lie about doing it?


subject: Re: Gun control kills again

text:
In article <[email]>,
 "SaPeIsMa" <[email]> wrote:

thanks for admitting you don't know.

[...]


author: -ZZ

subject: Re: Can God Sin? Why?

text:
On 15 Mar 1998 02:15:28 GMT, "Caesar Squitti "
<[email]> wrote:

I got the impression the Child didn't leave, but that he (or she) was
pushed.

-ZZ


author: Nikolai Kingsley

subject: this week's updates

text:
1: from now on, "Keep your nose to the grindstone" will be replaced by
"keep your nose to the screen".

2: "cis-sy" will replace "gay" as the level-entry insult.

3: chess will be replaced by liar's poker.

now, get back to work, or it's flogging time.

--
Ceterum censeo Jitanem esse delendam


subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
Nikolai Kingsley wrote:

Nikolai, cancel the mission to Hell's Gate.  I would email you regarding
this excepot that the email address I like to mail you at has expired.

Let me know if you have already completed the mission.  Do not coninue
with the mission if you are enroute and sneak back into the Volleyball
area of sand  and pleasance where you must await further instruction.


author: Ken Johnson

subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
On Mar 23, 8:40 am, Nikolai Kingsley <[email]> wrote:

I thought it was "sissy," being a diminutive of "sister." I like being
called "sissy" when I'm wearing a dress. It's kind of respectful.

Ken Johnson


subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
i've been, uh, kind of dragging my feet on that one. it looked very
involved. i can handle it, i'm certain - i got the gank and the tank -
but from the outline it looks like it's gonna take about two hours. so i
put it off for a few days, then a few weeks, then i started hanging out
with this rather odd young woman who turns out to be one of Sansha
Kuvakei's illegitimate daughters. she's a lot of fun, considering her
screwed-up childhood. gadding about Airaken in a faction-fitted Succubus.

--
Rania Kuvakei > so.. if i flew a succubus into an incursion, *everyone*
would shoot at me, right?


subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
cis-sy is more dire:

http://www.plasticbrickautomaton.com/comics/101.jpg


author: euclid

subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
On Mar 23, 5:43 pm, Nikolai Kingsley <[email]> wrote:

I'm cis.  Somehow I don't think I'd feel insulted if someone called me
a cis-sy..

OTOH, I have no clue what people are talking about when the croon that
they "feel like a woman".
What the heck is that?  Do they have an extra special relationship
with their 'nads or something?

euclid
Conversations about eye liner bore me.


author: Not.

subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
Nikolai Kingsley wrote:

Take her ith the two of you.. Keep her on a lastic band to your writst
yet let her go as far as it stretches maybe upwards of twelve feet
downwards of two furlongs and see if he can steal her heart yet know she
is yours.  He just need a tahgetses..

J. Mook
Keeper of the Nostradamus Sphere


subject: Re: this week's updates

text:
Nikolai Kingsley wrote:

Oh, by the way, I know how it all goes down.  He goes in. Satan pudds up
his chest and pounds it in his mighty half-troll way.  Very very shortly
the S. gu is pushing him out from his hind even Abraham Lincoln was not
this bad heh heh

J. Mook
Keeper of the Nostradamus Sphere


subject: Re: this week's updates

text: it's usually after having had to deal with another guy being an asshole.


author: Yury M. Mukharsky

subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
In article <[email]>,
HOLMAN EUGENE <[email]> wrote:

It was not sold, it was leased (for 99 years?). USA did not return Alaska since USSR did not
pay Tzar's debts to USA or under some similar pretext.

Yury


author: Tapani Hietaniemi

subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
Yury M. Mukharsky (muh@physics1) wrote:

Sorry to rectify this minor detail once again but, according to
Encyclopedia Britannica (I refuse to use both my Encyclopedia Americana
and Bolshaja Sovjetskaja Entsiklopedia when dealing with this issue):

Alaska --
"In 1857 the Russian minister to Washington was instructed to hint that
Russia might sell its colony... In February 1867 the Russian minister
to Washington returned to his post with instructions to enter into
negotiations... The treaty was completed in haste on March 30, the
agreed _sale_price_ being USD 7,200,000."

Encyclopedia Fennica confirms this. Actually, from point of view of
Helsinki this state of affairs is an extremely sad one. Alaska had
during the 19th centrury even some Finnish governors...

with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
At the Imperial Alexander University of Helsinki


author: Jarmo Ryyti

subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
Tapani Hietaniemi ([email]) wrote:

: Encyclopedia Fennica confirms this. Actually, from point of view of
: Helsinki this state of affairs is an extremely sad one. Alaska had
: during the 19th centrury even some Finnish governors...

Even if I know that the sensitive Russian souls will be shocked when reading
the true story of the history of Alaska in addition to other hardships
they have had recent times 8-)...I have to refer to a broschure of an
exhibition at our university:

* LETTERS FROM ALASKA - Uno Cygnaeus in Sitka Island 1839-1845 *

"After studying natural scince and theology at the University of Helsinki
Cygnaeus was ordained a priest in the year 1837. The Russian-American
Trading Company were looking for a priest to head the Evangelical-
Lutheran Church of Sitka, in Alaska, in the year 1839. Uno Cygnaeus
(1810-1888) decided to take the office, which was offered to him.
Cygnaeus was commissioned to found the first Lutheran parish of Russian
Alaska.

The voyage to Alaska started from Kronstadt on the 19th of August 1839,
on the ship Nikolai. Besides Uno Cygnaeus a new _governor_ Etholen (a Finn)
with his wife and _Finnish_ and Russian (also those:-) emigrants departed
to Alaska. The eventful voyage via Cape Horn took nine months.

Snow-capped Mountains and Sitka spruces

To Cygnaeus mind, the views of Sitka reminded him faintly of a Finnish
archipelago, but everything was more beautiful, more green and more
large scale.

Mainly one-storey log houses of which most important ones were built
with horizontal boards on the facade, rose from the only street of the
city. Immigrants from different parts of Russia lived in the city itself.
Original natives of the area such as the Tingit indians lived outside
the paling. Besides this the Aleuts lived in the neighbourhood.

Cygnaeus' Parish

Pastor Uno Cygnaeus' new parish consisted of around 100 members: Finns,
Baltics, Scandinavians and Germans. To this congregation Cygnaeus delivered
sermons in Finnish, Swedish and German. Important facets of the parish's
life included a confirmation school, wedding ceremonies and christening.
Uno Cygnaeus also inaugurated the Lutheran parish's cemetary.

The _first FINNISH_ born Governor, Etholen was Lutheran and attended
Cygnaeus' sermons. Previous governors of the settlement belonged
to the Orthodox church. (There was even them!:-)
The Lutheran governor strengthened the new parish's position within an
Orthodox stronghold.

The Trading Company donated a building area, in Sitka's only street,
next to the Orthodox Church. Based on the drawings of pastor Cygnaeus
_FINNISH_  carpenters built the church which was inaugurated in July
1843.

Source: A brochure of Jyvaskyla University Museum's Cultural-Historical
        Department.

jarmo
ps.
The copier of the writing has added some personal remarks:-)


author: [redacted]

subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
In article <299ago$[email]>, [email] (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:

Oh, ye-a-a-a!
here it is!    Tapani, what about retired US army and FBI officers?
Will you pay pensions to them?


author: Andrew Lobanov

subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
In article [email],  [email] (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:

K terapevtu, please! Your request should be directed to the Congress of the United
States. Or better, to Mr. President, personally.
Meanwhile, I would like to express my feeling for Finland which had lost such a
strategic bridgehead in Northern America.

But this story is best when served with some decent dinner in Mexican restaurant. We
tried it last night, and that worked really nice. I and two of my friends (a Finn and
an American - what a coincidence!) got a good laugh about it.

By the way, my Finnish friend says, the US communist party was founded by Finnish
descendants. So, was it a revenge for a loss of Alaska, or was it an attempt to
weaken this poor country, to buy back what was sold so unjustly by drunken Russians?

Oh yeah, another question: what should we do about the Finnish share in the bargain??

Andrew.


subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
In article <29ecrk$[email]>, [email] (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

Why do you  think somebody should be shocked by the fact that people
belonging to the empire served it occupiing high positions in it?
Only xenophobs like you are interested in ethnical backgrounds of the soldier
who comes to serve in the Army. Majority of the netters from the
Russian-speaking side here always claimed that ethnicity doesn't matter -
the governor you speak about serve Russian empire there. So, all the grories
and all the guilts of his activity in Alaska belonged to the Russian empire.
Nobody is Russia is going to blame Finnish people in case the fact of genocide
against Aleuts would be found in documents referring to this period.
Exactly the same way the administration of the Soviet Union should be blamed
for wrongdoins in Baltia in 40-ies.
Best...
Vadim S.


author: Dan Hartung

subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
<[email]> wrote:
[someone from finland wrote:]
[others:]

Just to clarify a small point here, the Encyclopedia Britannica is
not a British publication.  For something like a century it has
been a private company, based in Chicago, closely allied with the
University of Chicago, which provides much of its research support.


subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
[email] wrote:
: In article <299ago$[email]>, [email] (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:

: > Encyclopedia Fennica confirms this. Actually, from point of view of
: > Helsinki this state of affairs is an extremely sad one. Alaska had
: > during the 19th centrury even some Finnish governors...

: Oh, ye-a-a-a!
: here it is!    Tapani, what about retired US army and FBI officers?
: Will you pay pensions to them?

Hietaniemi is right. At our university is at the moment an exhibition
about Uno Cygnaeus and his years in Alaska. Uno Cygnaeus was a lutheran
priest who acted as a priest and a teacher in Alaska and later was
called "the father of Finnish public schools".

Russian colony in Alaska was multinational and U.Cygnaeus was sent
there to take care of those who were Lutherans of their faith.
Mostly Finns, Germans and Swedes. Nearly half of the "Russians"
were not ethnic Russians in Alaska and really some governeurs
were from Finland. (I think very few Americans know that?)

An amusing detail, Cygneus wanted to build a bigger church for the
Lutherans for the colony in Alaska (I do not remember the name of the town,
however on an island). He got the permission if it is smaller that the Creek-
Orthodox church of the town. The greek-orthodox priests had a strong
grip on the colony in an old Russian style!

So if you like to see an exhibition about "Finno-Russian Alaska" visit
university of Jyvaskyla soon.
jarmo


subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
Andrew Lobanov ([email]) wrote:
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:

No, on the contrary,  _Russia_ has lost her "strategic brigdeheads" both in
Alaska and Finland. It's true that the citizens of republic of Finland do not
have such career possibilities as the citizens of the Grand Duchy of
Finland did - like a career in Imperial administration (as some civil
servants from Helsinki made even in Alaska) or a career in military
(which Mannerheim made in Russo - Japanese war). Nevetheless, I am not
lamenting the existing state of affairs...

with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
Helsinki/Helsingfors - stolitsa svobodnoi Finlyandii


subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
Andrew Lobanov ([email]) wrote:

: States. Or better, to Mr. President, personally.
: Meanwhile, I would like to express my feeling for Finland which had lost
: such a strategic bridgehead in Northern America.

Thank you very much for the emphaty. That is indeed needed in these
hard times. The loss is enormous.

: But this story is best when served with some decent dinner in Mexican
: restaurant. We
: tried it last night, and that worked really nice. I and two of my friends
: (a Finn and
: an American - what a coincidence!) got a good laugh about it.

: By the way, my Finnish friend says, the US communist party was founded
: by Finnish
: descendants.

He is right. The Finns were "overpresented" among the labour activists
in the US and Canada. One reason was that the Finnish immigrants  were mostly
workers, working-class people. The other reason was that unlike many
other immigrant groups the Finns were litterate. In turn of this century
many immigrant nationalities were analphabets and had a poor ideological
"education".

Third reason was following: After the loss of Civil War of Finland ,
(the War of Independence if you like), the Reds lost (unlike in Russia)
in Finland and those who were not imprisoned or shot on the spot
fled to Russia and many to the United States. These two countries
in those days were safe-heavens for all kinds of crooks.

Thus these two nations got as a present lots of Finnish communists
(and it was rigth for them of course 8-) among the others Otto Ville Kuusinen
and Edward Gylling for the SU. United States got the forefathers of
Gus Hall who is perhaps still the chief of US communists. Or may
be he is retired in ourdays. (He however tried to make a revolution
in the US so he deserves a decent pension:-)

His real Finnish name was not of course Gus Hall, but something else.

As an anecdote: when Socialist Paradise was about to be built in the SU,
many Finns, returned from Canada and US, but not to Finland, but to
Karelia. Later on Stalinists killed most of them in 1930's.

: So, was it a revenge for a loss of Alaska, or was it
: an attempt to weaken this poor country, to buy back what was sold so
: unjustly by drunken Russians?

The purpose of that was of course to weaken SU and United States 8-)
If the Russians had not sold Alaska and there had not been any
Socialist Revolution in Russia Alaska may have had many more
Finnish governeurs as there was. So the Finns had to be compensated
of this loss somehow;-) What do think?

I believe that the sale of "Alaska" was totally something else
as it is told. In a reality the question was of a tiny area in the
area of Alaska somewhere,perhapst some islands, but it turned into
something else first later.

: Oh yeah, another question: what should we do about the Finnish share
: in the bargain??

We had to find the original agreements, papers and see what was sold.
Some ackres called Alaska, or that what is _today_ ,later, called Alaska.
(First then we know what nasty tricks the Americans did and then
we can send a precise bill for the compensation :-)

I think this could be a good Finno-Russian joint-project.
Finally something productive;-)

jarmo


subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
Jarmo Ryyti ([email]) wrote:

: An amusing detail, Cygneus wanted to build a bigger church for the
: Lutherans for the colony in _Sitka_, Alaska.
  He got the permission if it is smaller that the Creek-
: Orthodox church of the town. The greek-orthodox priests had a strong
: grip on the colony in an old Russian style!

: So if you like to see an exhibition about "Finno-Russian Alaska" visit
: university of Jyvaskyla soon.
: jarmo


subject: Re: Russian claims on Alaska?

text:
In article [email],  [email] (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
Take it easy, pal. Life is full of losses.

I wouldn't call *THAT* "an andecdot". They were but poor misguided people,
and what's so funny about their deaths?

Agreed. We'll nominate you as the CEO.

Andrew.


author: firehose

subject: Re: Raindrops (was Re: let's end this dream now.)

text:
Tang Huyen wrote:

You are much more like him than you can imagine.
Clueless and full of anger and hatred.
Stop dressing up the rotting corpse for a puppet show
and enjoy the lazy summer days near the sea.

  cumulus clouds
  dream of tornadoes
  over a mirror-like sea
  ~oxtail  2010.07.10


author: Hydralisk

text:
On 10/07/2010 11:41 PM, firehose wrote:

if i give you an A+ will you grow up?


author: Lee Rudolph

text:
oxtail (DBA firehose) writes:

Rotting-corpse puppet
seeks same, for a summer fling
with no strings attached.

Lee Rudolph


author: niunian

text:
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 23:47:18 +0800, Hydralisk <[email]> wrote:

A+ can only be for faking. Is there such thing as simulated orgasm?


author: Tang Huyen

text:
Lee Rudolph wrote:

Just watch out for vultures. They like rotten
meat, the more rotten the merrier.

Or, get the puppeteer(s) to move around
a lot.

Better yet, stage the fling near a corpse
flower, and the vultures will be fooled.

Tang Huyen


text:
On 10/07/2010 11:55 PM, niunian wrote:

he simulates everything so far. i thought i could
simulate a graduation and get him the fuck outtahere


author: halfawake

text:
Tang Huyen wrote:

my friend lost his way in Varanasi and wanted to get back to the ghats
at the Ganges and his nearby hotel.  eventually he figured out how to
get back there:  follow the corpses.

Robert

= = = = = = v= = =


text:
Tang Huyen <tanghuyen{delete}@gmail.com[remove]> writes:

According to press coverage of the World Cup,
dried vulture brain cigarettes are in much demand
in South Africa (for their prognostication-enhancing
properties), putting further pressure on already
endangered African vultures.  And the plight of
the Zoroastrians of India, where vulture stocks
are in collapse to the point that Parsee "towers
of silence" have become seriously dysfunctional,
is old news.  I fear the Grand Guignol will have
to go on without relying on them.

Although (if the Negro lullabye with the line
"bees and butterflies eating out its eyes" can
be taken at face value) there may be some help
from the Lepidoptera, enjoying their own lazy,
golden summer days near the sea.

Lee Rudolph


text:
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:09:21 +0800, Hydralisk <[email]> wrote:

Actually, I would like him simulate his ultimate enlightenment, so
that I can observe all the stupid western Buddhists in here got
excited as if they are watching some real porn.

:-)


text:
On 11/07/2010 12:14 AM, niunian wrote:

masturbation salvation


author: Harbinger

subject: What is Falungong.

text:
Would someone enlighten me on Falungong.

It dabbles in metaphysics , practices Qigong and agitates and organizes
people to go against Chinese government.

So, exactly what it is...

1) a political movement

2) a health promotion group (Qigong)

3)a  religion or cult.  ??


author: Planter

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Your compartmentalizing already. It means love.

Bright Blessings

King Amdo

Harbinger <[email]> wrote in message
news:ahjqr0$559$[email]...


author: Mahakala

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Harbinger" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ahjqr0$559$[email]...
Very good. Straightforward questions, no sign of sneering or hostility.
There is hope for you. <G>


author: Wing C Ng

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
In article <ahjqr0$559$[email]>,
Harbinger <[email]> wrote:

It is a mixture of Qigong practice and Buddhism.  Li Hongzhi
claims he is better than Buddha.

Few years ago, local gov. started persecuting FLG.  It then
organized a big rally in Beijing demanding that the persecution
stop.  Then Jiang himself got real upset about their ability
to mobilize the masses and ordered persecution from the central
govt. leve.

I would say it's religion plus Qigong, not a political
movement.

Wing


subject: Lunyu (Forward of Zhuan Falun- main text of Falun Gong)

text:
LUNYU1

"The Buddha Fa"2  is most profound; among all the theories in the world, it
is the most intricate and extraordinary science. In order to explore this
domain, humankind must fundamentally change its conventional thinking.
Otherwise, the truth of the universe will forever remain a mystery to
humankind, and everyday people will forever crawl within the boundary
delimited by their own ignorance.

Then, what exactly is "the Buddha Fa"?  Is it a religion? Is it a
philosophy? That is only the understanding of the "modernized Buddhist
scholars," who merely study theories. They regard it as a philosophical
category for critical studies and so-called research. Actually, "the Buddha
Fa" is not only the tiny portion documented in the scriptures, for that is
simply "the Buddha Fa" at an elementary level. "The Buddha Fa" is an insight
into all mysteries. It encompasses everything and leaves out nothing-from
particles and molecules to the universe, from the even smaller to the even
greater. It is an exposition of the characteristic of the universe,
"Zhen-Shan-Ren,"3  expressed at different levels with different layers of
meaning. It is also what the Tao School calls the "Tao,"4 or what the Buddha
School calls the "Fa."5

As advanced as the present human science has become, it is still only part
of the mysteries of the universe. Whenever we mention specific phenomena of
"the Buddha Fa," someone will claim: "This is already the electronic age,
and science is very advanced. Spaceships have already flown to other
planets, yet you still bring up these outdated superstitions." To put it
frankly, no matter how advanced a computer is, it is still no match for the
human brain, which to this day remains an unfathomable enigma. However far a
spaceship may fly, it cannot travel beyond this physical dimension in which
our human race exists. What can be understood with modern human knowledge is
extremely shallow and tiny; it is far from truly coming to terms with the
truth of the universe. Some people even dare not face, touch upon, or admit
the facts of phenomena that objectively exist, because they are too
conservative and unwilling to change their conventional thinking. Only
through "the Buddha Fa," can the mysteries of the universe, time-space, and
the human body be completely unveiled. It is able to truly distinguish what
is righteous from evil, good from bad, and eliminate all misconceptions
while providing what is correct.

The guiding ideology for today's human science is confined only to this
physical world in its research and development, as a subject will not be
studied until it is recognized-it follows such a path. As for phenomena that
are intangible and invisible in our dimension, but objectively exist and are
reflected into our physical dimension as concrete manifestations, people
dare not approach them, dismissing them as unknown phenomena. Opinionated
people groundlessly try to reason that they are natural phenomena, while
those with ulterior motives, against their own conscience, simply label all
of them as superstition. Those who are indifferent simply stay away from the
issue with the excuse that science is not yet advanced enough. If human
beings are able to take a fresh look at themselves as well as the universe
and change their rigid mentalities, humankind will make a leap forward. "The
Buddha Fa" enables humankind to understand the immeasurable and boundless
world. Throughout the ages, only "the Buddha Fa" has been able to perfectly
provide a clear exposition of humanity, every dimension of material
existence, life, and the entire universe.

*    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *    *
*    *    *
 1 Lunyu (loon-yew)-statement; comment.
 2 the Buddha Fa-the universal principles and law; the way of the universe.
 3 Zhen-Shan-Ren (jhun-shahn-ren)-Zhen (truth, truthfulness); Shan
(compassion, benevolence, kindness); Ren (forbearance, tolerance,
endurance).
 4 Tao-1. also known as "Dao," Taoist term for "the Way of nature and the
universe"; 2. enlightened being who has achieved this Tao.
 5 Fa (fah)-law and principles in the Buddha School.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Harbinger" wrote...

Please read Zhuan Falun --> www.falundafa.org

This is not true.  We are not against the Chinese government.  We don't care
if Jiang Zemin stays in power.  We don't care if Communists stay in power.
We don't care if there's democracy.

We just want to be allowed to cultivate our hearts by practicing Falun Gong-
doing the exercises and reading Zhuan Falun- without being tortured and
killed.

In short, we are against the persecution, not the Chinese government.  In
fact many Falun Gong practitioners were Communist Party members and they
exclaimed "how can we be against ourselves?"

No.

The base form of the practice is qigong, but it's much more than that, as
most qigong is used for keeping fit.

It is neither a religion nor a cult.  There are no rituals, no customs, no
divination, no places of worship, no ordination of ministers etc, that
characterize religions.  There is only one teacher, Li Hongzhi.  Everyone
else is a student (practitioner).

It's not a cult because there is no "joining".  Everything is free.  There's
no idea of transfer of property.  We don't separate ourselves from our
relatives- in fact we are encouraged to be a normal family member, employee,
citizen, etc.  But to just do so in accordance with the principles of Truth,
Compassion, and Forbearance.

And if someone starts to practice, they're not pressured into continuing.
They're not pressured into anything, for Falun Gong is a voluntary system of
self-improvement.  Someone has to want to do it, to reap it's rewards.  If
they don't want to, who cares?  It doesn't matter, for we are only concerned
with the people who do want to.


author: greg

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Please see
http://www.geocities.com/gelaige79/flg.htm (html)    or

http://www.geocities.com/gelaige79/flg.doc (ms word doc)    or

http://www.geocities.com/gelaige79/flg.pdf (adobe acrobat file)


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
A jolt or two may disorientate you momentarily.
But the new equilibrium gained would place things in their perspective.

Who says shock tactic doesn't work ?

"Mahakala" <[email]> wrote in message
news:NYj%8.789$[email]...


author: Jim Walsh

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:30:42 +0800, Wing C Ng wrote:

That is basically correct, as I understand it. My memory is that when FLG
tried to register, as every organization is required to do in the PRC, a
anti-superstition campaigner wrote a negative article about it and the
registration was denied.

The rest is correct.

It is not a political movement. It doesn't qualify as a religion under
some definitions, but it qualifies for protection under Freedom of
Religion.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Wing C Ng" said:

Actually, he never said this.  This is Jiang's propaganda.

But you're welcome to try find a quote and prove me wrong.


author: Tube Radio

subject: Re: Lunyu (Forward of Zhuan Falun- main text of Falun Gong)

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message news:<MGe%8.286642$[email]>...

Could you introduce to this newsgroup more chapters of the Zuanfalun?
Want to know more about it. What about 'don't-go-see-dcotor-when-sick"
stuff? Is that part of FLG teaching?


text:
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:33:00 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

Crap. It is silly garbage wrapped around breathing exercises well-known
for thousands of years.

Love, Jim

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author: LT Lee

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message news:<tRe%8.334957$[email]>...

Let us cut to the chase.

1. How can one tell whether a certain person is a Falun Gong adherent?

2. What constitute Falun Gong practices?


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:44:25 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

Now you have shown yourself to be truly ignorant.

There will be no peace for the FLG (or any independent thinkers) until the
CCP is gone and democracy is established.

If you really don't care about democracy, yikes.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Looks like you can have a job at Xinhua.

Ever heard of bias?  If you only quote from texts critical of Falun Gong,
lo' and behold, the results will be negative of Falun Gong as well.

"greg" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ahjvjh$sjapq$[email]...


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:34:54 +0800, Harbinger wrote:

What do you regard as a shock tactic? Whom do you propose using that
tactic on?

Love, Jim

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author: Robert Knowles

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:wqy%8.259558$[email]...

Oh, wait.  Now you want evidence for an
"unverifiable" claim?

Can't we just "assert" that Li Hongzhi said that and
claim that Li Hongzhi just doesn't want to admit
it because it will ruin his stage performance?

[If it works on David Copperfield, why doesn't
it work on Li Hongzhi?  Different karma?]


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
In article <wqy%8.259558$[email]>,
scott_in_CT <[email]> wrote:

There is an article in <<Ming Pao Monthly>> that quotes
directly from Zhuan Falun that says that.

Nothing wrong with it even if true, the next generation
of religious persona always says he is better than the
previous generation, Jesus says he is better than the
Prophets, Mohammed says he is better than Jesus, goes on
and on.

Wing


text:
"Jim Walsh" wrote...

No one is asking you to believe anything.

But you might want to consider WHY certain exercises have been around for
thousands of years.

Scott

PS- there are no breathing exercises in Falun Gong

==----------
=-----


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"LT Lee" asks:

I suppose for a start, you can ask them.  Or if you see them doing the
exercises, there's a good chance they're a practitioner.  (they may only
want to do the exercises, however)

Doing the 5 sets of exercises regularly.  Reading Zhuan Falun regularly, and
constantly upgrading one's xinxing by adhering to Zhen-Shan-Ren (Truth,
Compassion, Forbearance).


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Scott_in_CT wrote:

"Jim Walsh" wrote...

Like I said, we don't care about politics.  Jiang was president, the
Communists were in power, and there was no democracy back when Falun Gong
was supported by the PRC.  They are not mutually exclusive.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Are you replying to me?
Did you actually read it?
Try reading it again because you've clearly misunderstood it.

"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:RCf%8.238388$[email]...


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Jim Walsh" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
I assume that he was taking a playful shot at me, since I commented that his
question was phrased in a nice way.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Robert Knowles" wrote...

Actually, it's very verifiable.  He can just copy & paste from where he read
it, and then tell us the source.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Wing C Ng" wrote...
scott_in_CT wrote:
"Wing C Ng" wrote...

I have read Zhuan Falun more times than I can count, and I can assure you he
does not say this.

As to why a Chinese news organization would misrepresent the facts....
uhh....


author: charles liu

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message news:<obf%8.287251$[email]>...

Easy, aliens from beyond dimensions with supernormal powers visit
mankind periodically, refred to as "dharma-ending time" in this
dimention. They teach such exercise so mankind can be enlightened to
see/fly to said beyond dimensions. Funny you only cited small chapter
of Zhuan Fa Lun, as if you are trying to hide the truth (full reading
of ZFL is cited below):

- The important Truth about animal/alien posession was foretold by
Teacher, repeatedly mentioned in Zhuan Fa Lun and in sharing
conferences:

http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/doc/zflus.doc

Search with keyword "fox" and you'll see Master Li's reference to
animal posession in pages 69, 73, 74, 76, 77, 118, 142, 151, 155, 218.

- Read the interview Master Li granted to Time magazine, you'll
know what an incredible Being He truely is:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview3.html

Thus far His prediction about cloning and alien invasion has come true
- Raelian, Cloneaid, Advanced Cell Technology, and British government
legalizing cloning of human embryos.

Even China's own posessed leaders are directing scientists to clone
human embryo by incorporating human genes into rabbit egg - is this
not animal posession of man as foretold by Teacher in Zhuan Fa Lun?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992012

Dafa practioners beware, the truth is overt display of evil in China
is but a clever trick by the aliens to distract people from Truth of
danger in High Level that ordinary people can't comprehend. The real
retribution of false practioners will be the eternal destruction of
Fa, not temporary suffering of the flesh.

- The Truth why Jiang Zemin is an alien toad ghost with oozing
pores, that's the Truth. Let's not hide the Truth about alien invasion
any longer; let's reveal Dafa's Truth:

Eye witness cited by Minghui:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2001/5/25/10373.html
"I saw that it was a monster toad with three legs and it was dozens of
times of the size of an ordinary toad. It had spots of black, yellow
and green on its body. Wasn't it the leader of the XX Party in China"

Uncanny id's, proof positive of Jiang's True identity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1535300_mao150ap.jpg
http://www.reklama.sp.ru/images/jaba.gif
http://168.229.236.7/~cc/picts/jaba-bib.jpg


text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:07:48 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

Because they have positive consequences in the real world.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:50:44 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

If the politics of a nation is bad, good people go to prison, and worse.
But you don't care??

And you are proud of that??

The FLG was never supported by the CCP. Never.

What does that mean?

Oh I see, the FLG can co-exist with dictators. Well, sure, if the
dictators say so and the membership of the FLG is brain-dead.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
I apologize.  I should not have responded without reading more, which I have
now done.

While the author's understanding of Falun Gong is rather cursory, his
knowledge of history, and his penchant for writing is great.  His reporting
of the situation is balanced, except for not mentioning any of the
persecution, which in my mind is what we should be discussing here.  What
Falun Gong is, and what it's people believe is immaterial to the fact that
people shouldn't be killed/tortured for believing it.

Scott

"greg" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ahk47n$tb13m$[email]...
Gong,


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:6gB%8.261877$[email]...

Oh right.  Now you are very comfortable with
physical evidence when it fits your needs.  How
convenient for you.

Just as I suspected, you don't really believe your own
excuses for Li Hongzhi's lies, do you?

Oh, and if I find a quote from David Copperfield
saying that he has no supernatural powers, will that be
enough for you to admit that Li Hongzhi was wrong?

Or will you go back into that same song and dance
that you did before to see if you can shake off that
cognitive dissonance.

Then, it becomes so difficult to distinguish fact from
fiction, lies from truth, and whether David Copperfield
lies about his supernatural powers because Li Hongzhi
says he has them.

Any lie to protect your religion.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:HvS%8.275888$[email]...
he
To prove what he did say is easier and more logical than to require proof of
what he did not say. Coming from a credible source helps.

Come on, this is a credible source and worthy of unquestioning acceptance.
<snicker>
Excuse me.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Exactely, let's go the the source. Zhuan Fa Lun can be downloaded
free:

www.falundafa.org/book/eng/doc/zflus.doc

- Search for keyword "fox", and you'll see apx 20-30 references on
spiritual posession and fox/snake/weassle ghosts;

- Search for keyword "radiation", and you'll see Master Li's Power
demonstrated as he self-induces thermo nuclear fission (the only time
neutron release radiation in quantity is when an atom is split).

What greate power He has, what True Enlightenment He brings. As Master
Li's GongShen came to an end, Teacher had reincarnated in True Budda
Master Peng Shan Shan. What great benevolence that Teacher should
visit mankind twice in this dharma-ending time...

"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message news:<HvS%8.275888$[email]>...


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
In article <HvS%8.275888$[email]>,
scott_in_CT <[email]> wrote:

The author was clearly biased, and maybe he made it up.
I would not dispute you since I have not read Zhuan Falun
myself.

It is not a CCP news organization, it is a Hong Kong magazine,
in fact just last month it had a picture of a PRC intellectual
persecuted and executed by the CCP on its cover.

Although the author himself was clearly biased, the magazine
itself is not particularly so.

Wing


text:
Scott wrote:
Jim wrote:

Yes, this true, but there might also be other reasons below the immediate
surface.

For example, why do we dream?  Scientific research points out that we "need"
to dream.  Among other affects, being deprived of dreaming will really take
a toll on a person's health.  And empirically, I know that when I was
traveling around Europe back in college, sleeping on trains and such and not
getting much sleep, I noticed that as soon as I rested and closed my eyes,
I'd immediately start dreaming.  It was very strange.

So, assuming that dreaming is a human need, regardless of whether we
remember them or not, does it have a positive consequences in the real
world?

Scott


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Not true. It was until He Zuoxia wrote an article criticising FLG. Before
this point many CCP members were FLG practitioners.
Jiang Zemin was a Zhong Gong practitioner until it was banned.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:UYh%8.238099$[email]...
have
reporting

The author is me and I wasn't writing about the human rights abuses as that
has been covered at length. I was approaching the issue from an angle of
"nationalism" and "chineseness". My knowledge of FLG is not cursory - It is
not a document explaining FLG. It is examining a particular aspect of FLG -
it assumes a certain knowledge of FLG before reading.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
have

Thanks.  Sorry, it may not be entirely relevant to the previous post as it
does not deal with human rights abuses etc.. but it is relevant to the
original post of this thread because it is about FLG.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Robert Knowles" <[email]> wrote in message
news:NmC%8.155401$[email]...

<flush...gurgle gurgle gurgle>
Dismissed. Next!


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
In article <NmC%8.155401$[email]>,
Robert Knowles <[email]> wrote:

There is no such thing about a lie in a religion, people
believe in a religion, and they choose to believe what
that religion claims to be the truth.  Christianity claims
Jesus' mother was a virgin, and that he rose from the
dead.  These are central doctrines of Christianity.  Those
who believe it believe it, those who  don't, don't.  They
are quite unverifiable.

Wing


text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:lNf%8.236444$[email]...

Assuming that these humans are living in the real world and are
having their needs met in the real world, then yes.

(At least as positive as havnig their needs for water, air, food,
and shelter met.  )


text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:48:17 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

Positive consequences usually are "below the immediate surface".

Yes. Dreaming (and the lack of dreaming) has positive (by that I mean
"actual", not in contrast with "negative" or "bad") consequences as you
have indicated. You can get sick if you don't have "healthy sleep" and
dreaming is a part of healthy sleep.

Now, are you planning to jump from that to a claim that dreams predict the
future? If so, don't bother to tell me that claim, I am not interested in
silly stuff like that.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:41:16 +0800, greg wrote:

1. Sure, many CCP members were FLG members.
2. No, the CCP (as a party) never supported the FLG.
3. Lots of members of the Democratic Party are Baptists but neither the
Democratic Party nor the US government "supports" the Baptists.
4. All organizations in the PRC fall into two categories: registered
(recognized, approved) or illegal. The FLG was always illegal.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
You're right, and again I apologize for my earlier ignorant action.

Scott

"greg" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ahkpsr$tsucj$[email]...


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:32:32 +0800, Wing C Ng wrote:

..............

Well said.

Some of the *lies* attributed to Li Hongzhi are pretty silly, and would be
easily disproved if put to a rational test. On the other hand, perhaps his
statements were meant metaphorically or were meant poetically. Who is to
say, and, frankly, who cares.

My grandmother lived a long and fruitful life, attended mass nearly every
day, and died believing that the piece of bread on her tongue was Christ's
body.

Robert Knowles may regard such a claim as an obvious fraud, but it is not
at all obvious to me that the Church and its silly (to me) beliefs injured
my grandmother at all.

On the other hand, had Robert Knowles and his ilk gained power and forbid
the Roman Catholic Church to offer mass unless it could prove that the
bread became flesh, literally, it would have caused my grandmother
terrible suffering.

Which is why I endorse religious freedom, absolutely, in spite of not
believing in any religion.

And that is why I regard Robert Knowles more dangerous than the FLG.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Wing C Ng" <[email]> wrote in message
news:ahok40$d4u$[email]...

And Islam is a religion which claims to have a system
of laws perfect for governing the entire world.

And if religions can't lie, then maybe a theocracy IS the
best form of government.

[But, damn, without any way to "verify" the truth,
whose theocracy should rule?  I guess the one
with the most "believers".  As they say, "a million
flies can't be wrong".]

Or maybe the CCP should just declare itself a
religion so it could never be accused of lying.

And maybe Enron should declare itself a religion,
too.

After all, it seems that all criminals could benefit
greatly from the "no lies in religion" loophole.


text:
"Robert Knowles" <[email]> wrote in message
news:EVi%8.151268$[email]...
So, if you are saying that anything that a human will do that meets their
basic needs serves the greater good (positive consequences), then Falun Gong
is good, as it has contributed to my health- physically and mentally.  I
haven't been sick in the 3 years of practicing.  And I am more at peace than
ever as a result of the practice.

I'd say this is a fairly basic human need- the desire for health (which is
the result of food, water, shelter) and peace, which also leads to health.

So, then if Jiang is killing/torturing people who are serving their own
basic needs, then are his actions serving the greater good, or going against
them?

Scott


text:
"Jim Walsh" wrote...

I knew you were going to say that.

But no, I was not going to say that.  See other thread on what I was going
to say....


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Jim, you don't seem to, or want to, understand that in China "legal" doesn't
have any, well, legal standing.

So, it is moot to say that things are legal, or illegal, when the body, that
is responsible for 1)upholding the Constitution and 2) enforcing it, do
neither.  Rather, they do whatever they want and make up a law ex-post
facto.

Like Robert Knowles and others have said.  There is freedom of religion in
China.  It's just that this constitutional entitlement isn't allowed to be
manifest in today's political climate.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Jim Walsh" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

And, your grandmother is free to do that.  She is free to believe
that they turn into stir-fried locusts and soy sauce if she wishes.

I would just subject them to the same laws that any other business
or organization would have to follow.  If they make a claim, they
should provide evidence or stop making the claim.

Plenty of religions pass out crackers and juice without claiming
that those items literally turn to flesh and blood, so this would
not be the demise of the RCC.

And I oppose it for the same reason I oppose fraud in government
and business.

I don't think religion should be given special exemptions for fraud
just because they do it all the time and it's expected of them.

The best parallel I can think of in the U.S. is the truth in labeling
laws and its impact on the "health food" industry.  It is an industry
which gets way out of hand with its claims about what its products
can do, often to the harm of people who seek out those products
instead of real medical help.

People, of course, are still free to believe that eating ginseng will
improve their sex life, or that shark cartilege can cure cancer,
but they just can't advertise it that way.

Now, when you regard me as more dangerous than
the Roman Catholic Church, I'll even be afraid of
myself.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Fri, 26 Jul 2002 00:29:49 +0800, Robert Knowles wrote:

Did you *really* not understand what Mr. Wing Ng wrote?

Love, Jim

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author: FD

subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
If there's no proof for something, it's supersition, and if you don't
believe in it, it's a lie, right?

"Robert Knowles" <[email]> wrote in message
news:1IV%8.164698$[email]...


text:
"scott_in_CT" <[email]> wrote in message
news:D7j%8.337121$[email]...
Gong

Well, some Germans could probably have made the same claims
about Nazism.   That philosophy probably did make some people
feel good.

Now, as far as mental health goes, that's debatable where religion
is concerned.

than

Nice try, but, unfortunately, you haven't shown that Falun Gong is
a basic human need.

I and billions of others survive quite well without Falun Gong, but
seriously doubt that  we all could survive without food, sleep, water,
air, or shelter for very long.

against

Torture and killing is rarely good, even for Falun Gong members.


text:
My term "positive consequences" was inartfully chosen. I meant "physically
verifiable consequences".

I do not think that the "greater good" is a meaningful concept.

I don't think that "anything a human does to meet their basic needs
servers the greater good".

He is doing what you are saying and his actions are evil.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 07:39:17 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

Of course telling a government what you want it to do is "political". That
is the essence of politics.

False. It was TECHNICALLY and actually illegal.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:19:42 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

I am completely aware that there are no "laws" in the PRC which the CCP
is bound to obey.

This fact does not make the illegal status of the FLG *more* secure. It
has the opposite effect of making a legal status insecure.

For example, the CCP had no trouble summarily closing licensed and legal
internet cafes which (to get the license) had already demonstrated they
met fire safety regulations.

If Knowles said that "there is freedom of religion which isn't allowed to
be manifested", then he is capable of saying any imaginable, stupid
thing.

There is not any freedom of religion in the PRC. Period.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:46:48 GMT, "Robert Knowles"
<[email]> wrote:

Well, now you talk about FREEDOM. Aren't you the guy who said that the
CCP was right to lock up the FLG because their silly lies made them
enemies of the state?

The Roman Catholic Church has as many silly lies as the FLG. Why do
you grant freedom to one and support putting the other in prison?

So, your statement "She is free to believe..." is false. She must
prove it or stop believing it.

If the RCC were barred from saying that the bread becomes flesh it
would go underground, as it has in the PRC, where it is banned for
similar reasons.

Finally the truth. You are opposed to freedom of religion. Why did you
deny that when I said it several threads ago?

I regard you (and your "anti-freedom" ideas) more dangerous than all
the religions and cults put together.

Religions and cults will not cause permanent damage. A denial of
freedom will.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
Robert Knowles wrote:

snip snip

The issue of "life after death" or whatever, is a
question that has been pondered since anyone can
remember.  It literally concerns te core of a
person's being. How is it that that ugly
monstrosity - the CCP - can decide that they have
the right, nevermind the wisdom to "settle" the
issue once and for all? A personal quest for
"the meaning of life and death" is just that
personal, and if someone wants to aggregate
with others who share a belief about that,
however silly it be to those not in the group,
as long as they don't force others or inflict
bodily harm on others should be OK.

It's just that that ugly CCP who is so insecure
about its hold on power spends futile efforts
on imposing their wiil on the most personal area
of people's lives, instead of governing in a
fair and honest way that allows people the freedom
to become prosperous in their own creative ways.

Well even the most devout atheist can accept something
called the placebo effect wherein merely the idea or
perception of "salvation" or whatever can affect great
positive change in people's lives.  And before you
go and twist this into something it wasn't meant to be,
No, someone declaring "jihad" and blowing up people and
property does NOT fall under the category I just described.

The difference is that government and business objectives are
fairly well understood as providing goods or services, which
can usually be verified as to whether or not those goods or
services were provided as promised (for the CCP the answer is
a big fat NO when considering their stated goals upon its inception).
Schools, roads, hospitals, social services, etc can be
evaluated in the way you propose.

Religion OTOH, is a very personal thing that defies
most "quantification" measures.  I suppose you could
send surveys and such, but you would just write that
off as the mark of "brainwashed" bias. People's activities
in a church are a means of gathering and sharing while at
the same time sharing in the belief that there is some power
bigger or greater than them. The only problem I see is that
the beligerent child known as the CCP can't tolerate this
because of their broken ego, subconsciously or consciously
aware of the immeasurable pain and suffering they have
inflicted on the people.  And since they squelched out
all meaningful ideas of religion, now they must deal with
FLG, which has the fortitude that way surpasses any "evil"
western religion.  Or as Mao could have called it
"domestic opium"

Have you ever measured or can you cite a study that
measures "spiritual well being"? Well others have,
and the conclusions are positive. See this link:

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/cin/health/healthteam/stories/healthteam-naturalhealthcheck-45449920010209-140203.html


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
That maybe what R. Knowles says, but that it is not what I say.

BTW, some of the claims made here (FLG reduces or eliminates disease) are
easily proven (or disproven). How about putting them to a scientific test?

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002 13:41:54 +0800, FD wrote:


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"FD" <[email]> wrote in message
news:CuL09.504776$[email]...

Can David Copperfield "really, really" fly just like hundreds
of other people living in China as Li Hongzhi says?

All you have to do is put on an airshow.


text:
Is love physically verifiable?

Love,
Scott

"Jim Walsh" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
==----------
=-----


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Jim Walsh" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

I agree.  That doesn't sound like me.

If I said it, it must have been in a very weak moment.

[I think Li Hongzhi said that, but I'm sure he'll deny it
because he doesn't want anyone to know his true
thoughts, just like David Copperfield doesn't want
anyone to know he can "really, really" fly.]


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"1_Han_2_Bush" <[email]> wrote in message news:[email]...

Without first proving that a "spirit" exists, of course.

Also, you have to be careful to distinguish what the
study actually shows from the fluff added by the
reporter.

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/cin/health/healthteam/stories/healthteam-na
turalhealthcheck-45449920010209-140203.html

Well, that's certainly a step in the right direction because
now others can examine the study and critique its techniques
and attempt to reproduce them.

The problem, of course, is that the rebuttals will not get
nearly the attention as the claim because few people are
comforted by reports such as "Prayer Still Doesn't Work",
or "Prayer Study Flawed".

That kind of stuff is just too boring for the typical daily
newspaper reader.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayerstudyafterpub.html

http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html

Still, it is a move in the right direction and something I'd
like to see them do more often.


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:59:18 GMT, 1_Han_2_Bush <[email]> wrote:

Well-said.

Love, Jim

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subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Jim Walsh" wrote...

Yes, that would be great.  And I truly believe this will happen, as all
scientific "knowledge" starts off anecdotally until science "proves" they're
right.

There was a survey done in China in '98, I believe, with 12,000
practitioners of Falun Gong showing a disease healing rate of 97%.  But, of
course, western science establishment will claim that strict scientific
controls aren't done in China, etc, etc.

When enough people see that Falun Gong practitioners don't have diseases, as
compared to the general population, science will then come around to
"proving" that this is "true", and they will be left to suggest possible
excuses for the results- healthy lifestyle, positive thinking, chance,
placebo, or anything that doesn't shift their paradigm too drastically, as
they have to live their lives on assumptions-as-fact, just as everyone
does......

Scott


subject: Re: What is Falungong.

text:
"Jim Walsh" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...

Exactly what I have suggested.

I focused on the easiest claim.  David Copperfield and hundreds
of Chinese flying.  It doesn't take much sophisticated equipment
to put that to the test.

If they aren't willing to "prove" something as simple as that, I
doubt that they can tackle the tougher proofs.

As for the "lie" or "not a lie" part, when two people like David
Copperfield and Li Hongzhi directly contradict each other on
David Copperfield's "real" flying abilities, then one of them is
not telling the truth.

Now, we could tie David Copperfield down and torture
him until he "confesses" that his flying abilities are "real"
like Li Hongzhi says, or we could ask Li Hongzhi how he
"knows" this about David Copperfield and give us the
evidence.

Since Li Hongzhi also claims that hundreds of people in China
also "really" fly, then we can ask him to produce one of those
for a quick demo or explain why he makes that claim without
providing evidence.

At some point, when he keeps making claims without evidence
his credibility should be in serious doubt (except for the fact that
he is a religious leader who has people who will believe him no
matter what he says or does).

People "really, really" flying (as in levitation) is such a remarkable
claim, that it would revolutionize the world, much like the claims
for Cold Fusion.  It was a remarkable claim and they were asked
to produce the proof.  They couldn't and Cold Fusion is now just
a fading memory.


text:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 05:51:50 +0800, scott_in_CT wrote:

Sure. And so is sex. And so is friendship. And so is hate.

BTW, some of these things have "measurement" issues, but so do some
sub-atomic particles.

As any physicist will tell you, the existence of measurement problems is
NOT evidence of lack of existence.

Love, Jim

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