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msg-560424a3c2c5f612d07980e7c5a74384 | talk.environment | 31 Mar 2002 06:04:45 -0800 | Donald L Ferrt | Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,73%257E495259,00.html
Plant patents sow seeds of destruction
By Stan Cox
Sunday, March 31, 2002 - Somebody's trying to patent fish and chips -
the chips part, anyway. The nonprofit organization ActionAid has filed
an application with the British Patent Office, claiming that ... |
msg-8015f0eedec4466e876a0396e6983793 | talk.environment | Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:54:34 +0100 | paul olive | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | it is completely necessary to patent them(but monsantos terminator gene is
evil, however un fortunately legal) but if they have declared open season
all plants i call the patents on cotton, maize, wheat, t
omato,s and potatos as well as beans |
msg-71a2427a461f89ad4115bac3a870909c | talk.environment | Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:13:25 -0600 | David Gossman | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "Donald L Ferrt" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
The author's confusion over the difference between a copyright and pantent
says a great deal about the logic of the rest of the post.
A socialist initiative that has at its roots the destruction of private
property rights.
Patents on varieties of roses have... |
msg-4b4994001c2f5ae2e592b39104699b47 | talk.environment | 31 Mar 2002 16:42:44 -0800 | Donald L Ferrt | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "David Gossman" <[email]> wrote in message news:<a87g6m$ca4$[email]>...
Or shows you lack of perception of reality! The author was using an
analogy!
To the contrary! It delineates among concepts of privacy! Since the
Libertarians want to privatize the ocean, the air we breath or even
the sun we get = as if they co... |
msg-7aa21fa1523bf5b20043241df461297c | talk.environment | Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:53:41 GMT | Rufio | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "David Gossman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:a87g6m$ca4$[email]...
Can't patent a book - unless it's a new design. All other books should be
PD. But it may be possible to copyright the contents
You use the term 'socialist' like it's a bad thing! And before discussing
property rights, you might want to read Alan De... |
msg-95d5075afe8e5300c1376feaff455346 | talk.environment | Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:17:18 -0600 | David Gossman | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "Donald L Ferrt" <[email]> wrote in message
news:[email]...
news:<a87g6m$ca4$[email]>...
pantent
And if you understood what I was saying you would understand that the
analogy does not hold because of the differences between a patent and a
copyright. It is rather clear, between your not understanding this and your
inabi... |
msg-d0ab94d5b3948436c308890e965aa571 | talk.environment | Sun, 31 Mar 2002 15:06:35 -0600 | David Gossman | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "Rufio" <[email]> wrote in message
news:9PJp8.10406$[email]...
Socialism is the based on the philosophy that the state is more important
than the individual and by its very nature socialism stands opposed to the
rights of the individual. Of course it is a bad thing - unless you are a
totalitarian dictator - then it wo... |
msg-4a82b6c3314461b5adecb58edd8361eb | talk.environment | Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:33:11 GMT | Rufio | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "David Gossman" <[email]> wrote in message
news:a87trs$2r4$[email]...
private
discussing
"Shouting
Didn't go as far as unreservedly promoting socialism. But it can also be
seen as recognising the needs of society, rahter than those of the
individual. I've been unemployed, andreceived unemployment payments - but
now I'... |
msg-4023c14aab435c1202c6900aa9dd72cd | talk.environment | Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:55:16 -0600 | David Gossman | Re: Plant patents sow seeds of destruction | "Rufio" <[email]> wrote in message
news:rgLp8.10666$[email]...
important
the
When the "needs" of society take over the rights of the individual you can
bet that a politician in power is the winner. "Needs of society" are made up
to keep someone in power. The logic and the history is quite evident.
And there is no nee... |
msg-24a61e5c8fe70153950047b1db4599d6 | talk.abortion | Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:40:45 -0400 | james g. keegan jr. | Re: Women Want to Know of Abortion Risks Beforehand, New Survey Shows | In article <[email]>,
"osprey" <[email]> wrote:
can you cite any relevant statutes which prevent a man from having an
abortion?
or were you referring to men who had been raped? |
msg-a3cccd47769926d031a60cf0cd67e570 | talk.abortion | Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:20:55 GMT | David W. Barnes | Re: Women Want to Know of Abortion Risks Beforehand, New Survey Shows | In article <[email]>, james g.
keegan jr. <[email]> wrote:
Its amazing, isn't it. That is the same argument he uses to support
discriminating against gays. "They can marry those of the opposite sex
like everyone else." Osprey is an unbelievable hypocrite. |
msg-cb7667c4d8dfdf241a7cb4beee20cc2b | talk.abortion | Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:45:42 -0400 | james g. keegan jr. | Re: Women Want to Know of Abortion Risks Beforehand, New Survey Shows | In article <[email]>,
"David W. Barnes" <[email]> wrote:
coward bobby will run away from my question, and its implications. |
msg-825139508993f477c3ded5a367f47191 | talk.atheism | Sun, 09 Sep 2007 12:14:15 -0700 | John C. | Re: Twenty Questions for Evolutionists Answered | On Sep 7, 8:00 pm, Matt Silberstein <[email]>
wrote:
Let me provide a few in no particular order:
Biblical Creation predicts that there is something to observe and make
predictions about. Observed evidence: there is a wide variety of
phenomena about which observations and predictions are made.
While this may seem ... |
msg-ca24e10b552ebbdcede1e4917b163b90 | talk.atheism | Sun, 09 Sep 2007 12:59:40 -0700 | David V. | Re: Twenty Questions for Evolutionists Answered | John C. wrote:
No. All creationism says is "goddidit." There are no predictions,
nothing to observe, no discoveries possible, no arguments
possible, just sacrosanct religious dogma.
Nor would it want to.
No reason to create a creator. Your strawman arguments are not
working.
What facts? They accept only religiou... |
msg-e622550dae225a480e637b0e0ae6157c | talk.atheism | Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:35:22 -0400 | Matt Silberstein | Re: Twenty Questions for Evolutionists Answered | On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 12:14:15 -0700, "John C."
<[email]> wrote:
To be a scientific prediction it has to predict something other than
the observations used to create the model. Predicting that there is
something to observe is week on the face of it and useless and a real
prediction.
That is just silly. It is creationi... |
msg-04a4e445d774cfad686d8180d4cc6686 | talk.atheism | Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:30:27 -0800 (PST) | Jahnu | Re: Abiogenesis? hahaha :) | On Mar 1, 9:13 am, Free Lunch <[email]> wrote:
When it comes to knowledge of science, intelligence, and even ordinary
common sense, I am quantum leaps ahead of you.
I repeat, there is aboslutely no scientific evidence in support of
neither abiogenesis nor ET. It is pure fanciful speculation and
wishful thinking. If y... |
msg-8aedbba549948116cccd8436f295cbec | talk.atheism | Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:00:19 -0500 | Olrik | Re: Abiogenesis? hahaha :) | Le 2010-03-01 00:30, Jahnu a �crit :
Do you look exactly like you mother or your father? If not, then
evolution happened.
And in time, say a few thousands years, a mutation might occur where
you'll grow a neuron. |
msg-feb61c39ec9229ed46e453a29494fd00 | talk.atheism | Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:04:27 -0500 | Tim Miller | Re: Abiogenesis? hahaha :) | Jahnu wrote:
You do realize that "quantum leaps" are almost invisibly SMALL,
don't you?
More evidence of your ignorance of science? |
msg-f54693b9f5ef67b450c7c0fce4129f02 | talk.atheism | Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:35:03 -0600 | Free Lunch | Re: Abiogenesis? hahaha :) | On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:30:27 -0800 (PST), Jahnu <[email]>
wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
You are free to say what you want, but it's not true just because you
said so. You have demonstrated your ignorance. That's not too bad. What
is bad is that you are proud of your ignorance, as all of the
evolution-deniers around h... |
msg-a94314e6e5e1f860eed8dc213f677de8 | talk.politics.guns | Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:15:37 -0700 (PDT) | [redacted] | John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices | John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2d0CKXy8HQ&list=PL32A3140D59BF5772&feature=plpp_play_all
http://tinyurl.com/mccainconfronted
Additional via http://tinyurl.com/mccainussliberty |
msg-5db132822858ee05a1e8d632db541db4 | talk.politics.guns | Wed, 27 Jun 2012 02:40:48 -0700 (PDT) | [redacted] | Re: John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices | Phil, I suggest you follow the Lord's advice when dealing with this fellow and... "go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." - Proverbs 14:7 |
msg-c621639e53e129bdb873f42fb038b1b8 | talk.politics.guns | Sun, 24 Jun 2012 23:53:14 -0700 (PDT) | [redacted] | Re: John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices | Another apparent Israel first fifth columnist who more than like would
go on and on about the 'Holocaust' but couldn't care less about Israel
murdering/maiming Americans on the USS Liberty (especially when there
is no statute of limitations for murder as I mentioned in the
following email to John McCain which he st... |
msg-60f118f50f3b251a8ed72d66c2ad80ac | talk.politics.guns | Fri, 22 Jun 2012 03:29:45 +0000 (UTC) | Gray Guest | Re: John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices | [email] wrote in
news:[email]:
Hey idiot, that was 45 years ago. Got anything more current or relevant?
--
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to
be sure.
What I like about this attitude is it works equally well for Iran and the
Democrat National Covention.
htt... |
msg-ea5be13f136ffdff0b2ee0efcb80896d | talk.politics.guns | Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:02:51 +0000 (UTC) | Gray Guest | Re: John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices | [email] wrote in
news:[email]:
I suggest you piss off, ya loon.
--
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to
be sure.
What I like about this attitude is it works equally well for Iran and the
Democrat National Covention.
http://nukeitfromorbit.com/ |
msg-baf77fbcb3d73e1b6b41fcec5915a4d3 | talk.politics.guns | Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:12:46 +0000 (UTC) | Gray Guest | Re: John McCain Confronted on USS Liberty Cover-up & Media Accomplices | [email] wrote in news:0288d0bc-93a8-4095-
[email]:
4327-
Oh dear God! Kill yourself ya loon.
--
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to
be sure.
What I like about this attitude is it works equally well for Iran and the
Democrat National Covention.
http://nukeitf... |
msg-70c2642ed7f2b6713cb9b7e2bbf42e75 | talk.politics.medicine | 1999/12/21 | Bloody Viking | Perverse Effects of Single-Payer. (WAS: uninsured crisis brewing?) | CAUTION: Content is distasteful. Do not read while eating.
Herman Rubin ([email]) wrote:
: Those who would restrict care, and this will be almost an
: immediate result of the costs of centralized insurance, will
: guarantee that good healthcare is not available, just as
: governments have made good education unavai... |
msg-39ceda2b819c6a07b003d5b07217c2c8 | talk.politics.medicine | 1999/12/21 | jenwolf | Re: Perverse Effects of Single-Payer. (WAS: uninsured crisis brewing?) | Bloody Viking wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. From what I saw of Finland's system, the
people didn't seem to be lacking in the treatments they needed, but
truthfully I wasn't there long enough to really get an idea what it's
all about.
So we make it so it's not like an HMO. |
msg-a7c78763a6f029c3955af3ac95ea3bb3 | talk.politics.medicine | 1999/12/21 | jenwolf | Re: Perverse Effects of Single-Payer. (WAS: uninsured crisis brewing?) | Bloody Viking wrote:
Or Kill yourself.
Boy, wouldn't the HMOs squeal with delight if suicide/assisted suicide
were legal! |
msg-e489f8d4f0d4f538e18049f1d4f61da6 | talk.politics.medicine | 1999/12/22 | Jerome Bigge | Re: Perverse Effects of Single-Payer. (WAS: uninsured crisis brewing?) | On 21 Dec 1999 01:40:36 GMT, [email] (Bloody Viking) wrote:
You make a very good case for elimination of prescription laws.
However, those without insurance here in the US would be far
better off with "single payer" than they are now. And people
would not have to worry about losing their jobs, not being able
to get ... |
msg-69e96e304f696a29b4dd2f656e0bca22 | talk.politics.medicine | 1999/12/21 | George Conklin | Re: Perverse Effects of Single-Payer. (WAS: uninsured crisis brewing?) | In article <83mlqk$dv9$[email]>,
Bloody Viking <[email]> wrote:
Funny. They have universal access, with everyone getting
health care, only a dream in the USA. They have better
results. We ration health care all over the place only we
lie about it by saying that the uninsured are not severly
rationed all the time.... |
msg-345565f72906a43118b073ef5fe97250 | talk.politics.medicine | 1999/12/26 | Bloody Viking | Re: Perverse Effects of Single-Payer. (WAS: uninsured crisis brewing?) | Jerome Bigge ([email]) wrote:
: You make a very good case for elimination of prescription laws.
Indeed, I do. However, I'm a special case. While eliminating Prescription
would work for me it would have adverse side effects like addiction with most
people. The original purpose for Prescription was for cuttind down o... |
msg-c3fc4f989c9fc82ee0d66e5c83dae748 | talk.abortion | 25 Feb 2007 01:46:13 -0800 | [redacted] | OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids
By Denise Noe
The Alice Crimmins case broke in 1965 when the two young children of
the attractive, red-haired woman, who was separated from her husband,
were found dead in different vacant lots. My first encounter with the
sensational case was through ... |
msg-6c3484f60a4aa53e93529550bd7cd771 | talk.abortion | 13 Mar 2007 17:34:01 -0700 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
.
Ah, but you *should* be able to see my point.
Restricting abortion does not enslave the woman for the needs of the
fetus. It prevents her from exploiting the fetus for her own sake.
The fact that the sex act gained comes *before* the crime of murder
that facilitates it matters not one whit. Fetu... |
msg-d7a76f31e2b38c9bed118c23b2af4f75 | talk.abortion | 13 Mar 2007 20:23:22 -0700 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 13, 5:34 pm, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
the fetus is exploiting and harming her considerably.
And the fact is, most zygotes die long before birth.
There is a much higher spontaneous abortion and stillbirth rate than
is commonly known, which is a factor in why women who have failed
pregnancies have so many pr... |
msg-9cd231c89246be41fcf6baaba8248305 | talk.abortion | 14 Mar 2007 05:34:27 -0700 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
Taking care of the children here now is a separate question.
Making it legal to shoot six-month-olds to solve the problem of
starving three-year-olds is not the right direction to move in to
create a society founded on humane principles.
John Savard |
msg-d44fc2080225f961e9fb13aced1746ea | talk.abortion | 14 Mar 2007 14:31:04 -0700 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 14, 5:34 am, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
Actually, most young children are killed by their parents or
caretakers .. . esp those who didn't want a child in the first
place .. . so you are in favor of killing children, since that is a
forseeable outcome of mandating gestation. Even people who want a kid
are mos... |
msg-571a2517f68d961eb42066648a49d9c5 | talk.abortion | 12 Mar 2007 22:29:46 -0700 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 10, 7:08 pm, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
snip
So is life these days. We haven't been "natural" for generations.
Dying of communicable diseases is "natural" and vaccinations is not
natural.
I'll stick with all the unnaturalness of modern life and modern
medicine.
When there is no more rape, then maybe you mi... |
msg-2ccce4e81d484601de05a3d860a44016 | talk.abortion | 13 Mar 2007 04:27:36 -0700 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
The darky's importance is based solely on his master's choice, and is
none of your damyankee business.
John Savard |
msg-fd3fce13b8f6929c12cb5ca5ea4e24ad | talk.abortion | 13 Mar 2007 04:36:16 -0700 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
Indeed.
The idea that men have such a "need" for sex that it licenses them to
enslave women is apparently assumed by many.
But because women can fight back, this kind of thinking has found a
new outlet.
Why not just tell women that their children aren't really children
until they're born, so they w... |
msg-872d9b1630635a7c06c33027370679c2 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 17:56:44 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
That's simply silly, because you could justify infanticide in
precisely the same way.
John Savard |
msg-86cd39b279f0865ed1b9a6f4a94b7510 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 17:58:10 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
Ah, so it's *already* safe, legal, *and* rare. Bill Clinton should be
pleased.
John Savard |
msg-7e294fb812c6217f57ce47527a3de661 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 18:08:28 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
It is natural and common that people choose to engage in sex, but that
is still a chosen action on their part. Rape is violent, wicked, and
hence unnatural.
It isn't a natural consequence of a date the way that going "splat" is
a natural consequence of jumping out of a fifteenth-story window.
But ... |
msg-a21727790f491ae23fb948e73851127f | talk.abortion | 11 Mar 2007 04:11:57 -0700 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
.
Abortion does, in fact, kill.
That the goal is escaping from pregnancy does not change things. The
goal of an armed bank robber is unearned wealth, not the death of
security guards, tellers, or police. But that is no excuse.
Neither is escaping from pregnancy, at the cost of an innocent child's
... |
msg-2db5394c700445b04be077047063744e | talk.abortion | 11 Mar 2007 17:00:37 -0700 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | james g. keegan jr. wrote:
The patient who benefits may take a risk.
And cancer cells and microbes are not worth worrying about.
But killing innocent unborn children to facilitate sexual freedom is
another matter. That is exploitative. Your argument makes no sense -
except, of course, by assuming the most important ... |
msg-69da1506171502d3f6f52200d84d7a36 | talk.abortion | 8 Mar 2007 19:13:40 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
Would it be desirable not to hate serial killers?
I do not claim sainthood, but I think my reasoning does not leave me
open to all these charges of being vicious and evil. Unless, of
course, some fact not yet mentioned in this discussion needs to be
brought forwards.
Obviously, the power to make up any... |
msg-461dd6f582cc7fb08744d558e94d10f9 | talk.abortion | 8 Mar 2007 19:18:27 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | james g. keegan jr. wrote:
Many people support the continued existence of legalized abortion.
Human fetuses are human organisms in an immature state of development.
Abortion is performed on private initiative, and it is premeditated.
If a belief is unreasonable, the right to act based on that belief is
more limited... |
msg-e5de9693206559caca444e86a0c0b0de | talk.abortion | 9 Mar 2007 14:46:53 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 8, 7:18 pm, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
snip
And since men haev no consequences if they FREELY CHOOSE to rape women
and to coerce them into having sex, it follows that men are totally
irresponsible and therefore should be castrated, since they are so out
of control, and since they have no negative sequela to s... |
msg-939177ef10eef2fb21e19bb69b8f047e | talk.abortion | 9 Mar 2007 18:06:11 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | james g. keegan jr. wrote:
And, while no one calls for the murder of innocent ones whom *you*
call children, of course, as you say, legal abortion has supporters.
And human fetuses are, in fact, human children. It's just lying bigots
who try to put a different face on abortion than that. So I'm not the
one telling li... |
msg-8c3ff7791db5796c7c9c537dee117580 | talk.abortion | 9 Mar 2007 18:10:23 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
No.
Gametes can be differentiated from children relatively simply, on a
*principled* basis.
Fetuses and infants, however, are very similar. Drawing a dividing
line between them *is* clearly and obviously arbitrary.
A sperm cell doesn't develop into a child. A fetus does grow to be a
human adult.
... |
msg-1bd9389b3a261608bb4b451a73270066 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 02:40:10 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
For one thing, I do not condone rape.
For another thing, we all have to trade in order to live. Men work in
boring, exhausting, or dangerous jobs to purchase food, because they
do not own farms of their own.
Also, I am not trying to settle moral questions for the Third World.
Instead, I look at the... |
msg-a03bc43a07d78f536f5eb8d2bc27a251 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 02:50:56 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
Outright lies?
No, fetuses and infants really are similar.
Self-serving hypocrisy?
Now, that is perhaps a charge to be examined more seriously. After
all, the fetus has a woman connected to it.
I agree with you that the fetus doesn't have the right to exploit the
woman to survive. But I also agr... |
msg-e2990372911806046dfebc55274b5a32 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 02:56:02 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
You want bigotry?
Treating a young child as though he or she were just a puppy or
kitten, who we may drown or otherwise humanely kill if we don't choose
to accept the burden of feeding it, simply because that young child
hasn't transitioned from placental oxygen exchange to respiratory
breathing. That's... |
msg-9c90a3affd5b9bac1ff4d81c5264d128 | talk.abortion | 10 Mar 2007 10:19:54 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 10, 2:40 am, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
Sure you do. And it's very, very common, whether you condone it or
not. So the fact remains, most women in the world can"t "just say no"
and if children are punishment for sex, you are in favor of punishing
only women, which gives men no incentive to quit raping and a... |
msg-e01a6aaa65c469737f445833df8ce1c6 | talk.abortion | 7 Mar 2007 21:31:46 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
I am not sure how you infer hatred from my post.
I don't want innocent children to be killed. I believe that it isn't
reasonable to think that fetuses aren't children. I think adults are
the ones responsible for their own freely chosen sexual activities.
On what basis do you justify using an emoti... |
msg-4e9dc38637a8a774824a3f0a931749b8 | talk.abortion | 8 Mar 2007 14:24:40 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 7, 9:31 pm, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
forcing women to gestate against their will is a clear indication of
hate, at best.
A fetus is not a child, and can be neither innocent nor guilty.
And we kill children, and adults, by omission and comission all the
time--few of them are "guilty" in any sense.
Unlike fe... |
msg-daf75bb5a444f89c09f39c50247ef0c4 | talk.abortion | 5 Mar 2007 18:34:26 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 2, 9:40 pm, [email] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Wrong. I merely point out to the womenhaters that banning abortion
won't end it, you have to ban unwanted pregnancy, and castration is
the only 100% effective, 100% safe, and inexpensive way to completely
end unwanted pregnancy.
Which would end abortion. I don't mind ... |
msg-7ae8f18e694f3a53bb232fb445c87ea4 | talk.abortion | 4 Mar 2007 09:49:23 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
But they do choose to participate in sex.
It's a choice. Why should other people pay for a woman's activities?
Sex is, after all, optional.
Now, this argument would be severely weakened if sex were not merely
*as natural* as breathing, but *as essential* as breathing to life.
While it's true that... |
msg-c6ec07c56f8e7f9398eb08056545f761 | talk.abortion | 4 Mar 2007 13:24:39 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | james g. keegan jr. wrote:
.
.
.
.
The embryo or fetus with whom she is pregnant. Of course, if you can
show that it is reasonable to deny that it is the same as a born baby
as far as its right not to be unjustly killed is concerned, then there
would be no problem.
John Savard |
msg-c8325acf55744b98b4ebc5e5ec7faa75 | talk.abortion | 3 Mar 2007 20:25:58 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
Embryos don't really choose to implant, but adults do really choose to
have sex.
When people make choices, and they know these choices have a certain
natural probability of a natural result, why wouldn't *they* be the
ones responsible, instead of someone else with no choice in the matter
who is jus... |
msg-8eb56fa4ab046fe6ca8716b18c0f247f | talk.abortion | 3 Mar 2007 20:31:33 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
(snip)
In order to make sense out of a complicated world, we do have to
generalize and simplify.
When I look out the window at the world around me, I don't see a
perfect world.
But rape is still the exception and not the rule. The world I believe
I live in bears no resemblance to, say, Gor, the wor... |
msg-32ab49f27008becaa8cfc53d4d4880d1 | talk.abortion | 2 Mar 2007 13:41:21 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Mar 1, 7:53 pm, [email] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Wrong.
Too many women are victims, and far too many men are perpetrators.
When that balances, you might have a point.
I'd prefer that it be balanced by men being less violent than women
getting more violent . .. but being nice hasn't worked to stop men
from not hurtin... |
msg-61c3ba11b2e63b6fd60cc619e7fe5b2c | talk.abortion | 1 Mar 2007 17:25:50 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
I'm sure Pierre Trudeau would have gotten around to it eventually.
John Savard |
msg-e797db2e1e9b900cdb0c9c7a92147de7 | talk.abortion | 1 Mar 2007 17:31:14 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
If someone were to kidnap a woman, and drain her blood to keep a baby
alive, of course that would be evil.
Because there's the woman, minding her own business - and the needs of
the baby don't create a right to steal from her or do violence to her.
In abortion, though, the _status quo ante_ is that the... |
msg-8f19e6fcf13dc9927d8c991065818788 | talk.abortion | 1 Mar 2007 12:27:46 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 28, 9:58 pm, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
snip
The problem is that men refuse to listen to No.
And that's why sexual assualt, sexual slavery, etc still continue.
Because of what *men* do, not women.
when men stop forcing women to have sex, or are responsible enough to
get vasectomies, which is the cheapest, sa... |
msg-e0f5c2563e3fc9b56f3fbc2e19b65df5 | talk.abortion | 1 Mar 2007 12:30:43 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 28, 10:58 pm, [email] (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Far fewer than men have been convicted for rape . .. and that's not
counting all the cases where the woman's word was not deemed
sufficient.
Like with Richard Allen Davies. You know, the dude who killed Polly
Klass. He had been arrested for a particularly brutal sex... |
msg-e76e84a77aa3589ffeb7560d584c4f55 | talk.abortion | 1 Mar 2007 17:23:00 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
Yes, she should be grateful she doesn't have to supply four male
witnesses.
That is a difficult offense to prove as well.
If only 2% of rapes end in conviction, and we can't improve that
number very much without making it possible for a malicious woman to
easily convict any man she chooses, then w... |
msg-1fa71d4b485ec4aeee90327304a190d1 | talk.abortion | 28 Feb 2007 21:53:40 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
Do people who get cancer have to steal and kill to get their
treatment? No.
Abortion is only objectionable because it *hurts someone else*, the
fetus killed by it.
John Savard |
msg-008f476b0aa0e833351663b51ccc3de5 | talk.abortion | 28 Feb 2007 21:58:39 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
Of course I assume exactly that - that women can Just Say No.
That unless sex is actually and obviously rape, a rare and exceptional
violent crime, then it has two partners who are jointly and severally
responsible for it.
And so, when the unfortunate fetus sues for gestational services, it
goes aft... |
msg-858eb378e61d7489f082c82f84795cc1 | talk.abortion | 28 Feb 2007 18:41:58 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 28, 3:38 am, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
But we don't. Only about 2% of rapes end in conviction. Rape is a
very easy crime to get away with--because the woman is always held
accountable for what men do, even now.
Then please do so, since it's never been tried before.
Castration is much simpler and easier. ... |
msg-4f89da2e8b8898877eb5577b3a991197 | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 20:22:06 -0800 | elizabeth | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 27, 5:24 pm, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
A fetus is not a child, and can be neither innocent nor guilty.
It is, however, harming the woman.
So only women are responsible for pregnancy?
So you are asserting that men are totally out of control, can't be
held responsible .. .. then we should just castrate the me... |
msg-22e9243d21120f1dfd9e563f07c99b84 | talk.abortion | 28 Feb 2007 03:38:04 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | elizabeth wrote:
No, but we can't do much to them that will directly help the fetus,
can we?
Certainly we can punish men for rape.
We can even punish men for knowingly having intercourse with women who
they know aren't contracepting, who they know are likely to abort if
they become pregnant. Or even just being carel... |
msg-a76a83b430fc36bc44d08f8c719e1d28 | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 17:24:24 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
No. Pregnancy is not sustained by acts of will on the part of the
woman.
Yes, the woman is stuck with a parasite... but she may not kill an
innocent child to escape this misfortune.
It's like someone embezzling money to pay a gambling debt.
Because although the fetus is the parasite, it's adult s... |
msg-e18ff0fc5a6e2fec753d0cf5f0d557c5 | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 17:27:01 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
I would certainly agree - *if* we were talking about, say, forcing a
woman to become pregnant. To carry an embryo that was in frozen
storage at a fertility clinic, for example.
But we're talking about a woman who is *already* pregnant. Pregnancy
is natural, not imposed by the government.
To end the pre... |
msg-390fd308da1c47e700e1f045e95c50ad | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 18:31:45 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
Perhaps I just define "actively" differently than you do.
I see that I *spell* it differently than you do.
John Savard |
msg-5f11d66ceed70f64b47ac119de358810 | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 18:41:00 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
That may be, but then it ought to be easy to explain *why*.
I can see that what I think isn't important to you. But I don't know
how intelligent you are, and even if you are an intelligent person,
that wouldn't mean you were typical of intelligent people in general.
John Savard |
msg-1fd1d3bfc902f9863f13669631072484 | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 00:19:59 -0800 | [redacted] | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Hi, John. Did you read my article on the Alice Crimmins case? I'd be
very interested in any thoughts you might have. |
msg-727f65042810030906e62c2e8ecd2969 | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 03:00:39 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
You can look at it that way.
However, the poster to which I was replying simply said that life
begins at birth. He didn't explain which possible definition of life
he was using.
Obviously, metabolic processes and cell division *don't* begin at
birth.
It's true that "for the past several millenia"... |
msg-153cf4094e6ba6f816f47dce0ca8d88e | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 03:10:40 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
.
I go on living and I don't give all my money to Oxfam or Unicef or
whatever.
Is that the same as taking a gun, pointing it at someone's head, and
firing?
No.
Which one is abortion more similar to, in relation to the fetus or
embryo?
The latter. Women don't just walk away from being pregnant.
... |
msg-db30d6d787ad6058c892871a6aae2bbd | talk.abortion | 27 Feb 2007 03:12:33 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | [email] wrote:
Based on your post, not the article, I have one comment:
If you don't want people convicted of crimes based on circumstantial
evidence that isn't quite ironclad...
provide a Scotch-style "not proven" verdict as an exception to the
double-jeopardy rule.
John Savard |
msg-8f827097d9ff01acb9c2a8b44d511556 | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 04:36:46 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
Well, it's about a woman who is believed to have killed two of her own
children.
Also, the evidence against her was not ironclad, according to the
post, so Denise puts forward the hypothesis that her sexual history
helped jurors conclude that she was guilty.
This does relate, even if not directly, to t... |
msg-a9881c9e4238470bea266213952698c1 | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 09:06:36 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
I knew that, and I was pointing out that what she could be seen as
doing is instead saying that the pro-life conclusion that women who
abort are committing infanticide may be *influenced* by their
hostility to sexual activity.
But I'm curious as to what grounds you have for objecting to equating
infanti... |
msg-b0dd88789c9a7843d3295adcbaa6f67e | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 11:53:54 -0800 | [redacted] | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 26, 7:36 am, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
(Denise) Actually, it wasn't pro-choice or pro-life. It was off-topic
which was why I put OT. The reason I posted it here is because I
frequently post here, respect the thoughts of many others who post
here, and wondered what they would think of this crime case. I
co... |
msg-5f63ad6c5ccfd100b5b4cc80c7105c5e | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 13:24:05 -0800 | [redacted] | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 26, 6:00 pm, Robert <[email]> wrote:
(Denise) Did you read my Crime Library piece on the case? Or do you
base your conclusions on books read or newspaper articles or what? |
msg-31de8a8410e10ac66cc80636fee12860 | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 14:22:37 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Ray Fischer wrote:
The fetus winds up dead. People who perform abortions know full well
they are taking actions which are lethal to the embryo. That they are
doing so with another end in view does not protect them from
culpability in homicide.
And so it is. But embryos don't summon themselves into existence from
non-... |
msg-586a306e30838aa0bdfe1ec4af28526f | talk.abortion | 26 Feb 2007 14:37:40 -0800 | Quadibloc | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Robert wrote:
An infant has been born, and a fetus or embryo has not. So? Why is
"born" any more important than, say, "weaned"?
Life begins at birth? Does the heart start beating at birth? Does
electrical activity in the brain begin at birth? Life is, or is not,
present in beings out there depending on their own intr... |
msg-20d198bba5cd6c6b3922471f81b98ec5 | talk.abortion | 25 Feb 2007 13:56:30 -0800 | [redacted] | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On Feb 25, 12:32 pm, Robert <[email]> wrote:
(Denise) OT stands for "off-topic." |
msg-faccd7424e7e6f982f2c5f351b2b2f55 | talk.abortion | Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:32:19 -0800 | Robert | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On 25 Feb 2007 01:46:13 -0800, "[email]"
<[email]> wrote:
WTF does this have to do with abortion rights? |
msg-1b6ffc155bfa3246dfb713ae1303dcf1 | talk.abortion | Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:59:54 -0400 | james g. keegan jr. | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | In article <[email]>,
"Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
of course it does.
no, it would subjugate her to the whims of crazed neocons who argue
the rights of the fetus while concurrently abandoning the interests
of children.
"You have confirmed my suspicion that those who argue the rights of
the fetus view the woman a... |
msg-81572eaf50da9e93bf13dd83e3e0296e | talk.abortion | 14 Mar 2007 02:40:20 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
Your point is that your opinion is "correct" and everybody should be
forced to do as you say.
Just like restricting escapes didn't enslave blacks to the demands of
the slaveowners. |
msg-81719f9230c26995932ea473940baa84 | talk.abortion | Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:28:24 -0800 | Robert | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On 14 Mar 2007 05:34:27 -0700, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
And no one is suggesting shooting sex month old babies, unless you
pro lifers, have decided to do so instead of murdering Doctors and
Nurses.
No society that denies women the right to choose to abort a unwanted
pregnancy is founded on humane principles.
... |
msg-65d1051566c1a32e0ae341f54cb99056 | talk.abortion | 13 Mar 2007 12:11:22 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
'The idea that [fetuses] have such a "need" for [a woman's body] that
it licenses them to enslave women is apparently assumed by many.' |
msg-ac8787771b1966f6c01d1f8f0fa18594 | talk.abortion | 11 Mar 2007 02:57:49 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
Nope. You can justify adoption the same way.
You depend upon the lie that abortion is about killing, but once that
sleaze is rejected then you have nothing left. |
msg-b5dd9d0f3f6a9aa84f7ae433f4ca7886 | talk.abortion | 11 Mar 2007 02:59:42 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
Ah, so the pro-liar resorts to the usual babbling idiocy. |
msg-7e64ae0834666588dc5fd68c654c9060 | talk.abortion | 11 Mar 2007 03:04:46 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
Forced childbirth is "violent, wicked, and hence unnatural".
Sex is a "natural consequence of [dating] *in just that way*." |
msg-6e5f8ae68493a73aa05c21df0caa7656 | talk.abortion | 11 Mar 2007 17:10:41 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
So do you.
Yes, it does.
Do you send money to your ISP in order to kill children?
Are YOU a murderer? |
msg-48eb6db26a5b0cad5680506d55d89b5b | talk.abortion | Sun, 11 Mar 2007 13:20:44 -0400 | james g. keegan jr. | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | In article <[email]>,
"Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
so does cancer surgery and antibiotics. |
msg-eb8a4a71fed8d6123439d2f6bac527a7 | talk.abortion | Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:38:57 -0800 | Robert | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | On 11 Mar 2007 17:00:37 -0700, "Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
The fetus importance is based solely on the woman's choice, and is
none of your self righteous business. |
msg-965709d8614a3a378974667166cff1dd | talk.abortion | Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:09:29 -0400 | james g. keegan jr. | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | In article <[email]>,
"Quadibloc" <[email]> wrote:
nice of you to allow patient to make personal medical decisions.
are you directing others as to what they may think is important?
tisk. tisk. there is no such thing as "innocent unborn children"
although i understand the need of some low iq types to pretend that
... |
msg-caeee11ff3ce171abf52eea83a9f45d2 | talk.abortion | 12 Mar 2007 04:10:26 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
Your entire argument is that women should be forced to suffer through
childbirth because you say so. |
msg-c553bc4d655a0f0a23fdbac57e948a1d | talk.abortion | 09 Mar 2007 04:37:04 GMT | Ray Fischer | Re: OT: The confusing case of Alice Crimmins: promiscuity and killed kids | Quadibloc <[email]> wrote:
It is desirable not to hate.
[...]
"To say that a [sperm] is not a child because children are born - by
definition - allows an *arbitrary* definition to rule us."
Some moment must be chosen. Birth is, by far, the most practical.
Your assumption that a fetus has some right to a woman's ... |
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