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Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 5

Untitled
Archived discussion:
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive8, 25 April 2006 to 26 May 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive9, 26 May 2006 to 2 June 2006

There have been a lot of recent small edits that have introduced a lot of pro-FLG info. Most of it is OK by me, but the removal of older blocks of text and replacing them with copy that makes assertions of opinion on Wikipedia's behalf are going to be removed. Any assertions of opinions about FLG's effectiveness or spiritual superiority have to be ascribed to Li or FLG, not to the prose of the article. If it keeps up, I'll have to tag the article with an NPOV sticker until I can undo the damage. --Fire Star 14:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It is requested most humbly that the article be reverted to the one on " 2:31 2 March, 2006  "... I had been working on re-structuring the article on the whole. As of now I am spending more time studying the teachings of Falun Dafa. I am putting in a lot of effort to ensure accuracy and comleteness. Kindly allow me a few days time before such drastic changes are made. It is requested that I may please be be given a chances to complete the re-structuring and then the article reverted if majority opinion is that it should be... I am putting in a lot of effort and time in the direction and I hope you will grant me time to complete my changes. As of now, kindly donot consider it a finished work. Thanking You. Dilip rajeev 15:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Greetings. As I said, most of the changes were interesting and helpful, especially the awards and commendations sections, but the informative body of the text that was removed was worked out over a long period of time by a consensus of people editing this article, and its removal without discussion will continue to be reverted. Please see the archived talk for this article. Everyone sees FLG with different eyes: the CCP sees it as an evil cult, traditionalists see them as a loopy "new religion" and FLG followers see Li as the saviour of mankind. Wikipedia should not espouse any of these POVs, rather we have to simply report them dispassionately, without weasel words or advertising copy; see What Wikipedia is not. Direct apologetics and "How-to" manuals for and about FLG don't really have a place in an encyclopaedia article. No one "owns" WP articles, and as Mcconn and I were discussing before, every point should be considered with such a long, controversial subject if the article isn't going to simply be reverted. As the script on every edit page says: Please note: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. --Fire Star 17:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

We must remember that Falun Gong is practiced by well over 100 milion practitioners world over. We cant casually call it " controversial qigong"- infact they are the majority and without argument the most popular system of qigong... we discuss the controversies in a section - the reader decides if it is controversial - we dont beat things into people's heads.

Not everyone agrees it is "controversial qigong" there are many Buddhist monks practicing Falun Gong..atleast a 100 million qigong practitioners wont agree with that... We must also understand that we are talking about a cultivation way and we must respect the fact that we are talking about faith. We cant casually talk about things - for instance tainmu is not said to be " in the pineal gland" but to be of material existance in other dimensions. I refer you to the lecture 2 of falun dafa (audio/ video lectures on falundafa website)

Buddhism talks about 49 levels of hell, Deva Mara, ghosts and spirits, or evil demons... can you start an article on Buddhist Beliefs saying... and it is not the hollywood concept of demons shayamuni talks about... a lot of context goes behind it.... The Ancient Gnostic Bible, "Pistis Sophia" says :

Bartholomew said: “A man who hath intercourse with a male, what is his vengeance?”

Jesus said: “The measure of the man who hath intercourse with males and of the man with whom he lieth, is the same as that of the blasphemer.

“When then the time is completed through the sphere, the receivers of Yaldabaōth come after their soul, and he with his forty-and-nine demons taketh vengeance on it eleven years.

“Thereafter they carry it to the fire-rivers and seething pitch-seas, which are full of demons with pigs’ faces. They eat into them and take vengeance on them in the fire-rivers another eleven years.

“Thereafter they carry them into the outer darkness until the day of judgment when the great darkness is judged; and then they will be dissolved and destroyed."

How much sense would it make to discuss this section in detail in an encyclopaedia article on Gnosticism?

The gnostics, tantrism, hinduism and several other traditions talk about tianmu. for instance the gnostics say that the materially existing higher dimensions can be percieved through the faculty of the third eye. We dont see an article on hinduism or buddhism starting with so and so says there is a third eye in the pineal gland!

If we chose to disuss something on beliefs regarding extra terrestrials, what excuse is there not to discuss this paragraph

“If there were such an instrument through which we could expand and see the level at which all atomic elements or molecular elements could manifest in their entirety, or if this scene were observed, you would reach beyond this dimension and see the real scenes existing in other dimensions” –Zhuan Falun

and its striking similarity to what one of the fore-most scientists suggests might serve as an explanation for quantum behaviour

“…Thus (as is indeed shown by a more careful consideration of the Mathematical form of the quantum Laws involved here) each electron (elementary particle) acts as if it were a projection of a higher dimensional reality”- David Bohm, In Wholeness and Implicate order.

The word demon is used in the sense - a being removed from the nature of the cosmos - zen shan ren.... For practitioners there is much higher meaning to this...A LOT of explanation must go into these terms and I am not joking... kindly go through the Falun Dafa teachings.... We are not just putting things out of context but what we are doing is out-right distortion and we dont even remotely suspect the extent to which we are doing it. Dilip rajeev 17:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

When you say it is "based on the religous belief of Li Hongzhi".... let me ask you - how do we know it is so? 100 million differ.... How do you know it is not handed down? ... We say it was first taught in 1992 by Li Hongzhi. Anything else is assumption and Distortion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Dilip rajeev (talk • contribs)

 * Well, the 100 million number is only one claim. There can be an argument made that more people do some form of Taijiquan or even yoga everyday, but we can't really know for sure. And of course FLG is controversial, just ask the current Chinese govt.! We don't say that controversy is justified, we are saying that it exists, and it does exist, there is a lot of evidence of controversy in our external links section if nothing else. Many, many people take exception to Li Hongzhi's public statements. As I've mentioned before, even the popular American television show Law & Order had its main character call FLG practitioners "weirdos". I have studied FLG, Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, etc. and Li's claims that his teachings are superior to the religious teachings of others are typical of claims made by religious leaders trying to win converts, and place his movement firmly in the religious arena. The language of Li's public lectures, and his claims of spiritual supremacy for himself in his lectures and publications is blatantly religious. How do we know that it is handed down? Li doesn't name his teachers. Wikipedia cannot say or even imply that Li has any spiritual authority beyond his own group, and the article must stay scrupulously neutral. To discuss disputed points, we should list them numerically and go over them one by one. Even if we don't agree, perhaps we may find some language to report things that we can agree on. --Fire Star 18:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

from a dialectical perspective, instead of saying controversial system of qi-gong why not say well acclaimed- as it has the greatest number of practitioners and has recieved around a thousand awards from over the world... far greater than any other system of qi gong has...several renowned qi-gong experts have spoken in praise of Falun Gong:

... Master Da Liu. ...born 1906 in Kiangshu province, China and started learning TaiQi with several masters. In the early 1950´s he came to USA and he was the FIRST TaiQi teacher in America, he wrote several books about Ta Qi, meditation and I-Ging.

In the age of 95 Master Da Liu made following statement: "I had been teaching Taichi and studying various Qigong practices for more than 40 years when I started looking into Falun Dafa. I now tell all my students to practice Falun Dafa."

Shao, Xiaodong considered by the acedemic community to be one of the world's foremost "experts" on Qi Gong who was The academic counselor of therapeutic Qigong for China Qigong Science Research Society and China Human Body Science Society... is himself a Falun Dafa practitioner as according to him, Falun Gong is an "advanced cultivation Dafa (Great Way)"

... My point is we dont have to label falun gong "controverial". We are discussing the controversies and people can judge for themselves. Keep the article objective. An encyclopaedia article is not a place ot go over disputed quotes "on by "one" and ignore the other intricate and profound teachings. It is IMPOSSIBLE to bring into picture all the context behinnd even one quote- disputed or otherwise.

An article on chritianity wouldnt keep emphasisng the controversies surrounding the church and list one by one each disputed "quote" from the bible.. we must respect faith.... the article must give an over-all unbiased view on the the practice. Not talking about whether it is Li Hiongzi's religious belief or otherwise. We are making it very clear, that it was introduced by Li Hongzhi... on the otherhand, authoritatively emphasizing it is based on "Li Hongzhi's religious beliefs" is putting in personal notions into the article.

Dilip rajeev 18:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

100 million, infact, is is a 1998 estimate.. Some recent estimates put the number well over 200 million...

This statement is also Inaccurate : "exercises".."said by them to develop high levels" .... Never is it said in any of the Falun Gong books that exercises are to develop "gong"... Refer the Lecture Videos... to understand the purpose of the exercises...

 * Any religion/religious movement/qigong/whatever that has controversies surrounding it is controversial. Falun Gong does. As Falun Gong people are wont to attack Christianity, here are four full articles that are entirely about controversies about the church and the bible.

 * 1) Christian theological controversy
 * 2) Criticisms of Charismatic and Pentecostal belief
 * 3) Criticisms of Christianity
 * 4) Criticism of the Bible
 * -- Миборовский U 23:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

 * We can't have this become an ad for FLG. As I've mentioned before, there are many well meaning, enthisastic FLG followers who would have the article read "FLG is universally loved by everyone and Master Li is the saviour of mankind!" but that just isn't going to happen, I'm afraid. We do have to discuss every point, that is the way consensus for this kind of article works. We can report the awards and acclamations, but we also have to report the criticisms and controversy, we will not pretend they don't exist. It isn't about respect, much more important to Wikipedia are the the interests of neutrality, many people revere Li and FLG, seeing them as beneficial to health and of high moral standards, many other people see them as racist, manipulative lunatics with pretensions to a xenophobic theocracy. We have to mention both. --Fire Star 13:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa and Qigong
Seems that in the above articles some people seem to claim all qigong and qigong practitioners as some how belonging to Falun Dafa.... which they do not. That might be why numbers are so inflated. In the words of the great detective Joe Friday... "Just the facts... m'am".Mike 19:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality
Fire Star, It is hoped that we all will refrain from pouring in our own POV into the article. The earlier edition was accepted, in majority opinion, to be more un-biased and neutral and as much as it was agreed upon to be a better base. I was watching the edits you added - Facts cannot and must not be presented in a manner that distorts the the context behind it. Subjective interpolation must be avoided. I appreciate the neutrality you have shown throughout and it is hoped that you will continue doing so.
 * It was? There is a long history here of anti- and pro-FLG people coming by and doing drive by edits to rewrite the article either extremely negatively or positively. Neither is acceptable. I'd say it is about 50-50. To insist that there is no controversy over FLG when there most certainly is much documentation of such seems like an attempt at advertising. See What Wikipedia is not. And to say that I am demonstratiing a POV without providing evidence goes against our assume good faith policy. As I've mentioned before (and it was rejected by Dilip rajeev), I'm happy to work with anyone; list your concerns, and we'll address them one by one. --Fire Star 14:38, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I dont think Fire star has intentionally introduced his POV into the article. I must emphasize that he has maintained an objective stand-point and that it is to be appreciated. I do request him to put time into studying Falun Gong teachings(I am doing the same) so that accuracy is not sacrificied in the name of verbal/surface neutrality-- I have this concern regarding certain paragraphs. Further, I understand that I hadnt discussed/justified the changed I had made, in detail, in the talk section...

Dilip rajeev 15:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussing Requested Changes
1. In my opinion, "is a controversial system of qigong based on the religious beliefs of its founder". is better changed to "is a system of qigong introduced by Li Hongzhi..."

for these reasons: 1. We dont have to make assumptions regarding wether the system is based on "the religious beliefs" of Li Hongzhi or not. The term "based on religious beliefs of" is a vague term with so many connotations behind it. Further its a POV.

---> "introduced by Li Hongzhi" makes it clear that it was "introduced by Li Hongzhi".

2. Wikipedia doesnt have to introduce the system as " a controversial system". We are clearly discussing the controversies in the later sections of the article. Should Falun gong be introduced to the un-informed reader as a "controversial" system? Shouldnt we be discussing the controversies, objectively, rather than emphatically declare Falun gong to be "a controversial system" to the reader? We must be careful about it and remember that even renowned masters of qi-gong arts like Master Da Liu (who introduced tai-chi to America ) differ on the issue:

At the age of 95 Master Da Liu made following statement: "I had been teaching Taichi and studying various Qigong practices for more than 40 years when I started looking into Falun Dafa. I now tell all my students to practice Falun Dafa.

 * Thank you for your kind words. I'm positive we can find language that we are all happy with if we consider these things together.

 * How about:

 * 1."is a system of qigong introduced by Li Hongzhi..." then followed by "and has generated some controversy, particularly in regards to the Chinese govt."

 * 2. The controversy is one of the most notable features of FLG's public profile for most people. More people practise orthodox Buddhism, but you don't hear about them as much because they aren't being persecuted (as much) by the CCP. My compromise suggestion would be to mention the controversial nature of FLG's relationship with China and other religions later in the introduction.

 * FLG isn't being singled out, if you look at the Talk:Tai Chi Chuan, or Talk:Jesus or Talk:Scientology pages (and hundreds of others) you'll see that there is an awful lot of controversy surrounding all of these subjects. What I mean is that we don't mean it in a pejorative sense, we aren't taking exception to FLG, but we are reporting that others do. Think of it more as one more bland fact, along with the list commendations and human rights organisations involved and religious issues, about a huge international phenomenon. Cheers, --Fire Star 19:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Certainly. I accept your suggestion.... but arent we starting the very next paragraph... with "The government of the People's Republic of China began a nation-wide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999.".. so would it be re-dundant? just some thoughts... I will think about how to phrase the statement well. I mean - my idea of a good article is one in which we present the fact as such and let people decide... there should be good flow and and little redundancy. We must be able to get ideas across without beating it into the reader's head. The fact that the very next paragraph talks about the falun gong being supressed in China brings the central controversy into picture. minimal edit: "an empty yet conscious state of mind concept taken from Taoism" has been changed to "A taoist Term for an Empty yet conscious state of Mind" which i think is a better way of phrasing the sentence.

changes to morality section
- In the morality section: Title "Morality" changed to "Emphasis on Good Moral Nature" -- Which is more descriptive... Falun gong doesnt have any "set of moral standards" for practitioners:

"Of course, if we want to lose ordinary people’s different desires and meet the standard for a true cultivator, and if we want to achieve that instantly, then it’s not easy. You have to do it gradually. You hear what I say, “do it gradually,” and you say “Teacher told me to do it gradually, so I’ll just take my time.” But that’s not right! You have to be strict with yourself, but we do let you improve gradually. If you achieved it instantly today, you’d be a Buddha today, and that’s just not realistic." -Zhuan Falun

"If you are always compassionate and friendly to others, if you always consider other people when you do things, and whenever you have issues with other people you first think about whether they can take it or whether it will cause them harm, then you won’t have any problem. So, when you cultivate you should follow high and even higher standards. " -Zhuan Falun

" Li Hongzhi claims that according to Buddhism( The Diamond Sutra, this is the “Dharma Ending Period” and that “Nobody should blame others for it, as everyone has added fuel to the flame.” " This sentence has absolutely has no meaning!!!

sentence, restructured, and "claims" changed to "points out"

From the Diamond Sutra ( sect. 6 in the translation by A.F. Price and Wong Mou-lam).

The time following Buddha Shakyamuni's demise is divided into three periods: .... the Perfect Age of the Dharma, lasting 500 years, when the Buddha's teaching (usually meditation) was correctly practiced and Enlightenment often attained....the Dharma Semblance Age, lasting about 1,000 years, when a form of the teaching was practiced but Enlightenment seldom attained... and then the Dharma-Ending Age begins... - God!!! I found this while searching for material from Buddhist Scriptures to justify argument that this is the Dharma Ending Age.... It sent a shiver through my spine...

"Alas! In the evil time

Of the Dharma-Ending Age,

Living beings' blessings are slight,

It is difficult to train them.

Far indeed from the sages of the past!

Their deviant views are deep.

Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;

Many are the wrongs and injuries.

Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,

They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.

The doing is in the mind;

The body suffers the calamities.

There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.

If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],

'''Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma. "'''

-Gautama Buddha (SE 62-63)

http://www.drba.org/dharma/btts/9xxentrydetail.asp?wid=89'''

paragraph after paragraph, Buddha Gautama's words in the sutra( given in the website above)seemed to be about Falun Dafa.. "shocking " is the only word I can say now... I will discuss the article later.. after I regain my composure!!!

... if you go through the falun dafa texts ... you will see that the main reason why Falun Dafa practitioners spend a lot of time clarifying the truth about the situation in China is that they want to save people who have been 'poisoned' by the CCP's stories from bringing upon themselves terrible karma by having negative thoughts against the Dharma and slandering the Dharma... There is just too much to talk about... I guess I'll leave it at that..... study the books of Falun Dafa and read the Sutra.. you'll be shocked beyond words..

Fire Star, I think we have been knowingly sacrificing too much accuracy ... and deviating from the truth... by phrasing sentences like "Falun gong's CLAIMS of torture"... while the united nations, united states congress and many other international bodies agree on the issue...

.. we have been presenting Falun Gong's teachings in such a way that it terribly and intentionally distorts the context behind it...turth matters much more than surface neurality.. and we have to live upto our responsibity...

The campaign of persecution [against Falun Gong] has been... carried out by government officials and police at all levels, and has permeated every segment of society and every level of government in the People’s Republic of China." United States Congress (Resolution No. 188 Unanimously Passed 420-0)

"Jiang’s horrific form of genocide is a terror that does not just destroy lives, but [aims to] destroy faith… It is a terror that must be brought to justice." Georges-Henri Beauthier Renowned Human Rights Attorney

"At least 43 psychiatric hospitals all over China are being used to detain and torture [Falun Gong] practitioners...We know some of the drugs the hospitals force on sane individuals in an attempt to destroy their will and spirit... we know of the widespread use of psychotropic drugs by ordinary police in jails, brainwashing centers, and labor camps." Abraham L. Halpern, M.D. Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry, New York Medical College; Former President of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law

“The Communist Party must vanquish Falun Gong… How could it be possible that the Marxist theory we endorse and the materialism and atheism that we believe in can’t vanquish what Falun Gong propagates? If it were true, wouldn’t we become laughing stocks?” -From a letter written by the then President of China, Jiang Zemin to Senior Communist Party Officials on April 25 1999

Also see the United Nations Report on the Persecution of Falun Gong...

Let us atleast not put these undisputed things as if to say falun gong practitioners are making up fancy tales of torture..

-

I have, in the light of discussions made eariler changed, made changes to the introduction - changing the text that declares falun gong's system of Qi Gong controversial... to a much more neutral one...

Statement Inaccurate... relation ship between chi karma and diseases discussed in the "Cultivation of Mind and Body" section... Exercises are not said to develod gong... purpose of the exercises also discussed in section "Cultivation of Mind and Body" .. "Falun Gong's qigong-like practises are said by them to develop high levels of 功, gōng, which Falun Gong practitioners use to mean "high level energy" (this is an unconventional use of the word, which in Mandarin Chinese means "merit" or "achievement" and by extension is part of compound terms describing a disciplined regimen.) Falun Gong adherents make the claim that gōng possesses healing properties, and that 氣 qi (which means "breath") only suppresses or postpones illness. See also: kung fu, traditional Chinese medicine."

Many occurances of "Li Claims".. most changed to "Li Hongzhi states"... "claims" has derogatory connotations. Refering to a person by the first name is not acceptable in western culture...

Fire Star,I wanted to discuss these two paragrahs with you:

"In 2002, Li claimed that after spreading Falun Gong for ten years....So it has to do with high-level beings as well. If this situation is to be turned around, it has to begin from high levels."

Hundereds of such concepts are discussed in the lectures... why pick out a few sensational sounding ones and put it in lime-light? Moreover so much context goes into it... they are unequivocably distorting the meaning behind the teachings... |for instance what is meant by alien beings has been discussed in detail in another lecture...arent we ignoring the conext behind it completley.. very different from the hollywood concept.... ANd They sound almost childish!!!!... Like saying :he said "..." and "...." and "..." see what they believe in....

The concept of pre-historic civilizations, tainmu etc has been touched upon in a neutral way in the next paragraph.... the material seems redundant and doesnt flow along with the text... AND WAS CLEARLY ADDED BY SOMEONE WITH A STRONG POV

I am removing the two paragraphs... you may revert the changes if you think it requires further disussion.... The discussed changes have been made...

 * Hello everyone. I put them back, Li does say those things, unfortunately, and they are illustrative of the context which will interest outsiders about FLG's conceptual world. See the section on aliens at the Scientology article, for example. As for the word "claims" being derogatory, you have to read Neutral point of view. For a blatant example; Li says there are aliens, yet he can't produce an alien for examination, hence Li's statements are a claim. There may indeed be aliens somewhere, but he doesn't have one, so we cannot know if he is correct or not in his assumptions, hence the word "claim." This is common Wikipedia usage for religious articles. --Fire Star 14:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm.. Friend, the I request you to please read through the texts of Falun Dafa... The Quote is by no means representative of Li Hongzhi or the beliefs of Falun Dafa. It is an intentional distortion. and those are not even quotes... but statements plucked out from here and there with a clear intent of defaming Falun Dafa... what about the context that goes behind.. and the required explanations. We must touch upon the concepts in a neutral manner and the next paragraph does that. I am not removing any existing information.

The statement regarding gong was removed as it is not correct. Falun Gongs books doesnt say so. The purpose of the exerxises is very different.... I am removing the incorrect statemnt on "gong"... simply because it is not true... I refer you to the video/audio lectures on the Falun Dafa Website.. -Dilip

 * And I am going to put it back. An instance of FLG's idiosyncratic use of the word gong is here: . Please do not continue to unilaterally revert text that has a long history in the article. --Fire Star 15:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Te very reference you gave me says: " This is the principle for cultivating at high levels. Strictly speaking, the gong potency that determines one’s level isn’t developed through performing exercises but through xinxing cultivation. Improving xinxing is easier said than done. Cultivators must be able to put forth great effort, improve their enlightenment quality, bear hardships upon hardships, endure almost unendurable things, and so on. Why haven’t some people’s gong grown even though they have practiced for years? "

So tell me -is the statement accurate.? Allow me to edit it to improve accuracy. I am not replacing it.

"In religious cultivation in the past, Buddhists taught Emptiness—not thinking about anything, and entering the Gate of Emptiness. And Daoists taught Nothingness—having nothing, wanting nothing, and seeking nothing. Cultivators used to talk about, “Putting the mind on practicing, not putting the mind on getting gong.” So you cultivate in a state of nonaction and just focus on cultivating your character, then you’ll be making breakthroughs in your level, and you’ll definitely have whatever you should. If you can’t let go of something, isn’t that an attachment? Here we’re teaching such high-level Laws right at the outset, so of course the demands on your character are high. And that’s why you can’t come to learn the Law wanting to get something. " -Zhuan Falun

 * The point is the use of the word gong itself, FLG's usage is unique. Traditional Chinese medicine, qigong or martial art all uses it the same way, always as part of a compound qualifying something else. FLG uses it a different way. That won't be acknowledged in FLG literature. Standard uses include:

功夫 gōng fu /skill/art/kung fu/labor/effort/

功绩 gōng jī /feat/

功课 gōng kè /classwork/

功劳 gōng láo /contribution/meritorious/credit/

功率 gōng lǜ /power(the output of an engine)/

功率恶化 gōng lǜ è huà /power penalty/

功能 gōng néng /function/

功能集 gōng néng jí /function library/

功能群 gōng néng qún /functional group/

功效 gōng xiào /(n) efficacy/

 * I will have a go at the paragraph here in a bit to see if we can get it in a way that you'll like better, so check back. --Fire Star 15:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking about it too... we can point that out....we must try to improve accuracy as there is a whole section in the Book Zhuan Falun titled "Why doing Exercises doesnt increase gong"... Falun gong's concept of transforming de to gong is more similar to concepts found in cultivation ways like Universal Gnosticism... the usage is certainly quite different and falun gong literature doesnt hide that..

--- I had made minor change to the morality section.. and was about to revert it myself.. ... thought i must discuss it with you...

What about changing "Falun Gong includes a set of moral expectations for practitioners to emulate." to "Falun Gong lays emphasis on Good Moral Nature" ?

There are no sets of moral codes... so current statement is inaccurate...The previous version " Practitioners are required to set high moral standards for themselves", though accurate, may sound POV for someone who has not studied FG ... SO ""Falun Gong lays emphasis on good moral nature" -i think would be a good description..

 * The problem is we have to say it neutrally. If we (Wikipedia) say "good" or "high" morals we are making a judgment, asserting that FLG possesses same. If there are no moral codes taught by FLG at all, then we can delete the sentence entirely. If FLG says "high morals" or "good morals" or even "conservative morals" somewhere, then we have to feature it as a quote, and source the quote. It is a notable feature, and perhaps there is some variance between what FLG teaches in various books? --Fire Star 05:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

...please see section "continuing discussion"...

Attempts of edit from Behind Firewall??
Olaf Stefanos, I have reservations on you calling the poor guy an "agent provocateur" and "vandal", I think he is behind the great firewall and desperately wants to speak out.... seems he tried editing the page through proxy but all quotes became something like \' .... and then he ended up replacing the whole article with

"Broters and sisters, I need your help. My internet can not go to Wikipedia, and Editing from proxy does no help. It turns all \' to \\\'.

Here there are lots of text and links sponsored by the CCP, I thank it if you remove them."

... then he himself(?) reverted the whole page back...

Friend, if u r reading this... you may discuss your concerns with us on the talk page...

 * I know. I noticed this, and if this "poor guy" is reading, I apologize. I just thought that his edits were silly vandalism (but I didn't actually call him a vandal, it was the other IP/person reverting). It seems he didn't intentionally want to mess up the article. I will assume better faith from this day on. ---Olaf Stephanos 05:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * There's way more Falun Gong-sponsored links in this article than "CCP-sponsored" ones. Even if he does make a successful change we'd probably end up reverting his edit due to POV. -- Миборовский U 07:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Continuing Discussion on Edits
. . There really isnt any difference between the teachings in the books... only that a superficial understanding may make it seem like there is... Infact the word "moral" is rarely used... It is xinxing or mind-nature that is emphasized.. now that a section by the name is there in the wikipedia... we somehow need to ensure accuracy... A quote from Zhuan Falun: " "If you are always compassionate and friendly to others, if you always consider other people when you do things, and whenever you have issues with other people you first think about whether they can take it or whether it will cause them harm, then you won’t have any problem. So, when you cultivate you should follow high and even higher standards. "

That is why I wrote "Falun Gong requires practitioners to set high moral standards for themselves"...

I will go through all the books in greater detail...

"Falun Gong's qigong style practises are said by them to develop high levels of 功, gōng, which Falun Gong practitioners use to mean "high level energy" (this is an unconventional use of the word, which in Mandarin Chinese means "merit" or "achievement" and by extension is part of compound terms describing a disciplined regimen.)"

Why not change it to.... "Falun gong uses the word gong to mean "high level energy" which is an unconventional use of the word (In Mandarin Chinese it means "merit" or "achievement" and by extension is part of compound terms describing a disciplined regimen)."

I see that this para has been removed from the beliefs section... while it is central to falun gong's view on qi gong... while three or four sensational sounding statements from the whole sets of lectures running to around 1000 pages have been projectes....

"Li Hongzhi states that the term "qigong" is of recent origin. That originally such disciplines had names like "The Dhyana of Vajra", "Ninefold Immortality Elixir method" and "Dafa of Cultivating Dao" and that the lowest level things of some cultivation ways, the things for healing and fitness, were brought out to the general public under the name "qigong". According to the QiJournal, It wasn't until 1953, when Liu Gui-zheng published a paper entitled "Practice On Qigong Therapy", that the term qigong (ch'i kung) was adopted as the popular name for this type of exercise system. Prior to that date, there were many terms given to such exercise, such as Daoyin, Xingqi, Liandan, Xuangong, Yangshengong, etc. ""

 * I like this: "Falun gong uses the word gong from Falun Gong: 功, pronounced gōng, to mean "high level energy" which is an unconventional use of the word (In Mandarin Chinese it means "merit" or "achievement" and by extension is part of compound terms describing a disciplined regimen)." If FLG literature doesn't use the words "moral" or "morality" much, neither should we, I'd say. --Fire Star 19:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

On the use of "gong"
Although the use of "gong" is somewhat unconventional as compared to how it most often is used in compound words, as noted in the text, I'd like to add that this use still is rather conventional within qigong systems, where "fa-gong 发功" (a verb-noun compound not found in my Chinese dictionaries) is a quite common term (but possibly with meanings differing from school to school). Now the unconventionality of the use is, to my mind, not so strange with qigong itself being such a recent assemblage/label, but I suggest that the meaning about its FLG use be edited so as to accord this unconventionality of the use to qigong thinking in general instead of as something unique to FLG. Certainly there is no need to make FLG appear more strange than it already is/is seen as? Berox 20:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Li's Dafa is the essential part of Falun Gong, not the exercises!
This is a re-post of an earlier post on 3/5/06 which no one responded to:

NEED TO REVISE INTRODUCTORY SECTION

The recent round of edits on this piece have totally distorted the over-all presentation of what the basics of Falun Gong are. After mentioning the "five sets of meditation exercises" in the first paragraph, the piece now launches directly into a lengthy discussion of the history of the Falun Gong in China. The first sentence does, at least, mention the word "Falun Dafa"...but then fails to go on to explain the difference between Falun Gong (which are the meditation exercises) and the Falun Dafa (which is Master Li's great law). It is fundamentially inaccurate to represent the Falun Gong as merely a set of mediation exercises. Master Li has told his practitioners that if all they do is the exercises, then they can't be considered Falun Gong practitioners. Thus the Falun Dafa...and Master Li's absolute insistence that all his disciples protect and defend the Dafa...is the core of Falun Gong.

Here's my suggested addition:

Central to "Falun Gong" is five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting). ''More important than the meditation exercises, however, is Master Li's Dafa, or "great law." Central to "Falun Dafa" is belief in Li's God-like role as the exclusive savior of mankind in this "Dharma ending" period. If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to live up to Master Li's Dafa, that person would no longer be considered a practitioner by the Master. Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they stand up for the Dafa. Master Li has stated that his Dafa created all beings in the cosmos, so in a sense Master Li himself can be considered a creator God.''

''Also central to the Falun Dafa is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to live up to the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons...sickness, old age and even death will return to them. If practitioners live up to the Dafa, they are promised salvation, while non-practitioners who criticize the Dafa, corrupt people, homosexuals and the "dregs" of humanity can expect to be eliminated by Master Li's great law in a process called “Fa-rectification.”''

Critics of the Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Master Li establishes between himself and his followers, using a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than just a new religious movement. A number of prominent American cult experts, including Margaret Singer and Steven Hassan, have stated that Master Li meets the classic definition of a manipulative cult leader.

If the Wikipedia piece on the Falun Gong is going to have any claim of objectivity, it must also represent the views of its critics. I am proposing that something like the above be added to frame the discussion at the beginning of the piece. As an alternative, it would be ok to just add the first two paragaphs (which are hypenated) and then add a new section on the controversial aspects of Falun Gong (similar to the treatment of Scientology by Wikipedia).

--Tomananda 02:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * If you can provide citations to the Sanger and Hassan publications, they should certainly be mentioned in the article, and also at Li Hongzhi. --Fire Star 15:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Steve Hassan has an article on FLG, I like the part where he asks about the numbers of members in North America. --Yenchin 21:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Article will stay Objective and continue to get more Objective
Objectivity is not plucking out a few quotes... distorting it out of context and presenting it... Neither is it talking about every self-proclaimed experts stand-point...The current introduction to Falun Gong... mentions the concepts and even mentions the most controversial quotes ( according to practitioners-out of context).... this is not a place to criticize or praise Falun Gong... ... if you are to go by the opinion of every single person in the introduction... we will have a lot to say...

Right from Master Da Liu among the most reputed Tai chi Masters in America( who introduced tai chi to america, author of several books on tai chi and qi gong) who says he asks all his students to study falun dafa.... youfu Li a Martial arts exprt and tai chi professor who considers Falun Dafa to Be a Great Way of cultivation of Buddhahood... The previous academic counsellor to China qigong research society who himself a falun gong practitioner..

many prominent chi gong masters...the governor of canada... atlanta... ambassador mark palmer... prominent human rights attorneys...

For instance, Special Rapporteur of the UN Commission on Human Rights ,UN director on reports of torture - 70 year old Theo van Boven speaks very strongly againt CCP's perecution of Falun Gong...according to him.. reports say that Mr. Xiao was "subjected to the so-called “water dungeon”… locking a naked person into a small iron cage with spikes on all sides. The cage is then lowered into filthy water up to the victim’s chest or neck in a completely dark room. The victim may be locked in the cage for days or even weeks, and urine and feces are excreted into the water.”

Theo Van Boven is also a winner of several reputed awards... could we quote him too?... no... we cant quote every single person.. we will only quote what honoured international authorities say... not every self proclaimed expert..

.. dis-information has been CCP's mot powerful ally in the persection... why would they block even the wikipedia article if they had nothing to hide? we would not allow such dis-information and distortions - used tctfully by the CCP to inundate hatred among the masses to creep into the article...

there are a million people saying a million personal things falun gong... we take an objective stance. quoting information first hand.. and we refuse to use your words to label people.. or to put quotes out of context...

Falun Dafa is cultivaion Practice... such beliefs donot exist in Falun Dafa... The Master protects disciples and a master is one who has complete his cultivation... similar beliefs are found in Buddhism... gnosticism... and all cultivation ways... we refuse to distort content.

I have personally gone through all the public lectures of Falun Dafa ... i dont find things even remotely close to what you talk about in any of the lectures...

-Dilip Rajeev

Continuing Discussion
Fire Star.. I am replacing the sentence on Gong with your suggestion... we have a whole section to deal with if we are to change the word "Morality"... yet we have the responsibilty to not sacrifice on accuracy... friend, could you go through the books and lectures of Falun Gong? I suggest, from personal experience, that going through the lectures in chronological order mt help understand them faster... mt help us do this job better.. thanx...

I changed "high level energy" to "cultivation energy" ... which is first hand translaion from the book Falun Gong....

Fire Star, The paragraphs below... do they flow with the article... the concepts like tianmu are mentioned in the next paragraph... mixing of races is discussed in the next section.... and anthrolpological beliefs have also been discussed in the next paragaph....

"In 2002, Li claimed that after spreading Falun Gong for ten years, some of humanity's predestinations had been averted, including a "comet catastrophe" and "the third world war." [1]

In some of his published lectures, Li states that aliens, gods and demons exist, humans have a "celestial eye" in their pineal gland (tianmu, also known as the "third eye"), that Earth has been influenced by extraterrestrials [2], and that remains of unknown prehistoric civilizations can still be found, for instance, in the bottom of the oceans. According to some sources, Li also explains that mixed-race people are instruments of an alien plot to destroy humanity's link to heaven. "By mixing the races of humans, the aliens make humans cast off gods," he said in a lecture in Switzerland. These same sources claim that he made a statement: "by embedding their technology and science in human bodies, aliens control their thoughts". However, this is one of the several instances where the alleged direct quotes cannot be traced back to Li. In his Switzerland lecture[3], Li stated: "The way alien beings get human beings to shake free of the gods is to mix the races, causing human beings to become rootless people, just like the plant hybrids people make nowadays." And further, "They have formed a layer of their body within the human body." According to Li, humans are not to be blamed for this: "There are other reasons why they dare to do this sort of thing. It has happened because the Fa of the universe has deviated and gods no longer look after things. So it has to do with high-level beings as well. If this situation is to be turned around, it has to begin from high levels."

-Dilip Rajeev
 * First off, as a courtesy to the rest of us, people should sign their discussion so that we know who we are discussing with. Secondly, I think the info flows fine, the thing is that Li said these things in the course of his teaching, so they are germane to an article on what he teaches. If he didn't want to seem sensational (and perhaps a bit potty to some people) he shouldn't have said them, I suppose...--Fire Star 16:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi as an Authoritarian Cult Leader
Fire Star, thanks for inviting me to document the representations I made in paragraph three of my proposed addition to the introduction. Here they are:

Cult experts speaking about Li Hongzhi:

1. Steven Hassan is a leading American cult counselor who wrote:  Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves (Sommerville, Mass: Freedom of Mind Press, 2000)  He has made several comments about Li Hongzhi.

a) Founder Li Hongzhi “comes very much out of the cult extreme, the authoritarian stereotype.”   Quote from San Francisco Chronicle article 12/18/05 at:

SF Chronicle

b) Mr. Hassan wrote a rather long statement about why he has “grave concerns about the personage of Li Hongzhi,  head of Falun Dafa and his organization”  on his own website. His statement really needs to be read in its entirety to get the full meaning of where he stands on the Falun Gong.  It appears in a section called “Notes from Steve Hassan 12/02” at the bottom of this web page:

Steve Hassan

2. Dr. Margaret Singer was probably the world’s most respected pioneer and scholar on the subject of destructive cults. In 1996 she published her landmark book:  Cults in Our Midst: the Hidden Menace in Our Everyday Lives. She passed away in 2003.

a) Quote from New Times article:

“Some will say it’s not but Falun Gong looks like a cult to me,” cult expert Margaret Singer told New Times reporter Joel Emgardio wveral years ago. “My criteria is a self-appointed person with secret knowledge to share, who gets his followers convinced he is the pipeline to the eternal good life. Doesn’t that sound like Master Li?”

See: Joel P. Emgardio,  “Spiritual CULTivation,”  New Times,  Los Angeles,  March 23-29, 2000.

b) Quotes from San Francisco Chronicle:

“If you want a good description of a cult, all you have to do is read what they say they are” said Margaret Singer [referring to the Falun Gong]. a longtime crusader against authoritarian religious groups. They actually say ‘Don’t Think.’ Just recite the master’s teaching.” …

Falun Gong critics at the conference say that they have nothing against the exercises but charge that the movement’s founder, Master Li Hongzhi – now living in exile in New York – leads an authoritarian sect that is breaking up Chinese families, discouraging devotees to seek medical care and misrepresenting its true teachings.

….

Singer said she has been contacted 44 times by concerned relatives of Falun Gong members, 35 of them of Chinese background. “Their children have begun talking to them in memorized jargon, reading from the words of Master Li,” she said.

See: Don Lattin, “Falun Gong Derided as Authoritarian Sect by Anti-cult Experts in Seattle,” San Francisco Chronicle,  April 29, 2000

Although Western cult experts have yet to come to a common agreement on exactly how to define a cult, most agree that there are common characteristics that are employed by the cult leaders themselves. By almost any reasonable standard, Master Li’s manipulative style of  leadership fits that bill. There are many examples in Master Li’s own words of how he does this, and I would be happy to compile a documented list of those quotes for a separate posting.

The important point here is that we cannot rely on the representations made by Falun Gong practitioners about what the Falun Gong is all about. Practitioners conceal the “higher teachings” of Master Li Hongzhi because he commands them to do so. In a very recent speech in San Francisco (available on a Falun Gong website) Master Li stated:

“So when you clarify the truth you absolutely must not speak at too high of a level. Right now when you clarify the truth you only need to talk about the persecution of Dafa disciples, how the evil party has been violating the human rights and the freedom of belief of the Chinese people, how historically the evil party has persecuted the Chinese people and the people of the countries belonging to the wicked Communist bloc, and how it is persecuting Dafa disciples today in the same way. And that's enough. As for high-level cultivation and gods, you shouldn't talk about those things.” Teaching the Fa in San Francisco, 2005 (Lecture Portion), November 5, 2005.

Li's San Francisco Speech

Fire Star: Can I go ahead and post the three paragraphs I proposed in my earlier post called '''"Li's Dafa is the essential part of Falun Gong, not the exercises?" ''' I know it will be subject to futher editing, but it would make the process easier for all of us. --Tomananda 22:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Fine with me. It could even be its own section of the article. I believe we have a responsibility to use sources from inside and outside FLG at Wikipedia. FLG's ardent devotees have a tendency IMO to often use weasel words to present what they do in a less sensational light, to make them appear more "mainstream" or at least apolitical, which they demonstrably aren't. That cult experts would be alarmed at what Li has said doesn't surprise me. On a personal note to Dilip, I am well versed in Buddhism, Taoism, qigong and neigong myself, and when I see evidence that FLG can do what I can do, then I will be impressed enough to study its exercises. So far, to my knowledge at least, they haven't demonstrated any remarkable abilities in the demos I've seen or in the practitioners I've dealt with, rather the opposite. Faith is fine, but we can't report their abilities as proven fact. --Fire Star 23:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources for new paragraphs in introductory section:
Dilip: You must not have read very far. Here are my sources for the first two paragraphs I added to the introductory section. I already sited my sources for the last paragraph in the earlier post. Let me know if I have left anything un-covered. Most of these sources are in the form of a PDF or DOC file on a Falun Gong website, and I don't know how to provide them as a link. If you can help, that would be fine.

Central to "Falun Gong" is five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting). More important than the meditation exercises, however, is Master Li's Dafa(1), or "great law." Central to "Falun Dafa" is belief in Li's God-like role as the exclusive savior (2) of mankind in this "Dharma ending" period. If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to live up to Master Li's Dafa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple (3) and thus not a candidate for salvation. Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods (4) as long as they stand up for the Dafa. Master Li has stated that his Dafa created all beings in the cosmos (5), so in a sense Master Li himself can be considered a creator God.

Also central to the Falun Dafa is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to live up to the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons...sickness, old age and even death will return to them (6). If practitioners live up to the Dafa, they are promised salvation, while non-practitioners who criticize the Dafa, corrupt people, homosexuals and the "dregs" of humanity can expect to be eliminated by Master Li's great law in a process called “Fa-rectification.” (7)

Critics of the Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Master Li establishes between himself and his followers, using a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than just a new religious movement. A number of prominent American cult experts, including Margaret Singer and Steven Hassan, have stated that Master Li meets the classic definition of a manipulative cult leader.

Sources:

1. Master’s Li’s Dafa:

“I am telling you now that Dafa belongs to me, Li Hongzhi. It is taught to save you and spoken from my mouth.”  “Awakening”  (May 27, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I

2. Li as exclusive savior:

a) “If I cannot save you, nobody can do it.”   Zhuan Falun, 2nd, edition.  p. 160 on-line document at:   http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/index.html

b) “Because I come precisely to offer salvation to all sentient beings, if I am not responsible to you, reading such things will bring danger to you.  Therefore, I must take care of you.”   Falun Dafa Lecture (Sydney Australia), p. 20.

c) “I am the only person in the world who is teaching orthodox Fa in public.  I have done something nobody did in the past and opened such a large door in the Dharma-ending time.”   Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition. p. 101

3. Studying the Dafa, not the exercises, is the essence of Falun Gong

“Why do I tell you to study, read and memorize Zhuan Falun? It is to guide your cultivation practice! As to those who only do the exercises but do not study the Fa, they are not disciples of Dafa whatsoever.”  “What is Cultivation Practice?”  (September 6, 1996)  Essentials for Further Advancement, English Version.

4. Promising to make his practitioners Gods:

This thought appears throughout most of Li’s more recent speeches. It’s a comment that usually elicits a lot of applause from his devoted disciples. For example, in a speech in 2003, Li said:

“I will also save you and turn you into Gods…since you'll become Gods at levels that high, I have to give you the honors of Gods at levels that high and all the blessings that you need.” Los Angeles Lecture (February 15, 2003)

5. Li’s  Dafa created all beings:

“Dafa is the Fa (Law) of the cosmos, and Dafa has created all beings in the cosmos.” “Using at Will” (June 28, 200) in Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 12.

6. Master Li protects his disciples (but also threatens them if they should not live up to the standards required by his Dafa:

a) “My Fashen (law body) knows everything. He knows everything on your mind, and he can do anything.  He will not take care of you if you do not practice cultivation, and he will help you all the way to the end if you practice cultivation.”  Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition, p. 170.

b) “In recent years some practitioners suddenly died; some of them died precisely because they did such things (plagiarized Li’s Dafa). Don’t think your master might do something to you.  You should know that there are numerous guardian Gods of the Fa at various levels whose very duty is to protect the Fa.  Furthermore, demons won’t leave you alone!....Once you are reduced to the level of an everyday person, no one will protect you and demons will also take your life.”   “Dafa Can Never be Plagiarized”   (September 22, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I

7. Master Li’s Dafa “weeding out” people in the Fa-rectification

a) weeding out the critics:

“Let me tell you, when this Fa-rectification matter is over, humankind will enter the next stage, and those people and beings who in their minds think that the Great Fa of the cosmos isn’t good will be the first weeded out.”  “Teaching the Fa at the Great Lakes Fa conference in North America (December 9, 2000),  p. 1.

b) weeding out the evil people, including homosexuals:

“All the evil beings in the world will be knocked down into hell when the Fa rectifies the human world, and for all eternity they will pay for the sins they committed.” “A Suggestion” (April 10,2001) in Essentials for Further Advancement II

Note: Since homosexuality is one of the world’s ten evils, and homosexuals have “dark hearts, turning demonic” there’s no question that practicing homosexuals will be “weeded out”  by Master Li’s great “Fa-rectification.”  See:  “The World’s Ten Evils” (July 7, 1998)

See: http://falundafa.org/book/eng/HongYinVB.htm#_Toc110877614

c) weeding out the "dregs" of humanity:

"Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out." Essentials for Further Advancement II,  item 28

d) weeding out a great many people:

“The number who will be weeded out is large and terrifying. At the beginning people will still feel shocked, while by the end they'll be numb to it. What kind of state will a person be in when he sees dead people strewn everywhere on the street?” “Teaching the Fa at the 2003 Atlanta Conference” (November 29, 2003)  Q & A section.

--Tomananda 03:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Terribly out of context
What you say seem like a joke made in a very bad taste to me. You are terribly distorting everything. Do some justice to your own conscience!!! The term "evil beings " never refers to human beings!!!! Evil is considered very different from the human... the things that manipulate human mind to do bad deeds.... humans are considered inherently good!!! Concept of achieving buddhahood/godhood through cultivation doesnt carry the fairy tale concept of "god"... God is used in the sense a being who has achieved consummation/perfection through cultivation... For instance...

"“My Fashen (law body) knows everything. He knows everything on your mind, and he can do anything.  He will not take care of you if you do not practice cultivation, and he will help you all the way to the end if you practice cultivation."....

... the statement is there in all cultivation practices... masters of a school, through their faculties, guides the cultivators in cultivation...they are said to guide cultivators in cultivation... it has got absolutely no meanings to the effect you imply... read the paragraps surrounding it... HOW COULD YOU ATTRIBUTE SUCH A MEANING TO THE QUOTE???!!!... In Zhuan Falun II Li Hongzhi also talks about people who are practicing cultivation whithout they themseles not knowing it...

...to understand the concepts of cultivation ways... I refer you to the website www.gnosis-usa.com ...

... the concepts are very similar... and it has nothing to do with what you speak about... and it is not something unique to falun dafa....

... further you are putting every little thing out of context.... a 100 million people would emphatically disagree with the connotations you give to those satements... you dont even understand the vocabulary used in the teachings ... which is only understood by studying all th books

... Apparently you have not studied any of the books!!! I have read every single paragraph you quoted... I cant understand why ...neither do I know if it is intentional...but you are quoting everything terribly out of context...

.... We cant introduce Falun Gong based on opinions / interpretations of teachings.... there are just too many...

You Are Concealing the Core Beliefs of Falun Gong
Dear Practitioner: I give a long list of Li Hongzhi's quotes and you call them my opinions? The truth is that you are avoiding talking about what is probably the most important part of Master Li's teachings: the idea of Fa-rectification. I noticed that after the practioners' last big round of edits on the Wikipedia piece, the word Fa-rectification had been totally deleted. Why is that?

You might be interested in knowing that a review of all of Master Li's speeches in 2005 reveals that the word Fa-rectification appears almost twice as often as the word Cultivation. And in all those same speeches you will find the word Gong only once.

The point I am making is this: Fa-rectification is a core concept of the Falun Gong, much more important than the meditative exercises. To simply say I am quoting things out of context will not work. I am at least as familiar as you are with Master Li's teachings. I challenge you to go back to the Master Li quotes I have listed above and explain to me what their meaning is other than what I have entered.

The corrupt people of the world are going to be weeded out by Master Li's Fa-rectification, while Falun Gong practioners are going to be saved, even turned into Gods. Is that not correct? It is what your Master teaches, and unless you are willing to repudiate at least some of the Master's teachings...are you?...I have to conclude that you are being evasive about your own beliefs.

What are your own thoughts on the Fa-rectification, anyway? Do you think people are already being "weeded out" in Master Li's Fa-rectification? When Master Li said in New York in 2003 that the SARS epidemic was "the first round of cleansing" how would you explain that way of thinking?

When he said that SARS was "Heaven punishing people" what people was he referring to? Any why, exactly, should these people be punished?

By the way, you didn't sign your post. --Tomananda 06:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Violation of Wikipedia Etiquette
Fire Star: Please explain what is happening here. An anyonymous editor has deleted my edits, which you approved and which I have fully documented in the discussion above. This seems like bullying to me. Rather than deal with the text as text, making line-by-line edit recommendations, there's a generalized response from a practitioner which really doesn't deal with the Li Honzhi quotes. Can you revert the text to what it was after my update? If not, there is absolutely no objectivity in this article. As you yourself observed above, this Wickipedia article is in danger of becoming an advertisement for the Falun Gong.

--Tomananda 06:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Ah yes, those things happen. My suggestion is to revert and place "see talk page" in the edit summary. Discussion here is the way to avoid a revert war. --Fire Star 14:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is concealing anything. Everybody is invited to go through the books. I myself have been going through it.
Friend,

Fa- rectification is not a "practice"... it is part of cultivation...The closest phrase I can find to it is the Hindu concept of "Dharma Punastaapana"... The dharma/teachings (Fa) rectifies the practitioners own heart... eliminating all evil within and the evil within the cosmic space encompassed by his bodies( not the physical body).... evil doesnot mean "evil people" ... there is ABSOLUTELY NO SUCH CONCEPT... EVIL refers to aggregates removed from the nature of the cosmos(zen shan ren) that control human thinking .... for instace ancient hindustani scriptures say... "you may hate sin... but never hate the sinner"...

See what Li Hongzhi says about homosexuality: "You are wantonly indulging your thoughts. Your thoughts, like the ones I just mentioned, are not actually you. The mentality that makes you homosexual was driven by postnatally-formed bad things. But you yourself were numbed by them and went along with them and wallowed in the mud. You need to find yourself again and stop doing those filthy things. Gods view them as filthy."

...we see that homosexuality is strongly opposed in all traditions including gnosticism( see quote above from pistis sophia) and Buddist scriptures.. homosexuality is bad... doesnt mean homosexuals are!!!!!! ... hatred is bad.. doesnt mean who ever has felt hatred is!!!

... all cultivation ways clearly distinguish between aggregates that manipualte human thoughts to make them accumulate karma and the person himself.... They also point out that some of the greatst cultivators have arisen from the sinnrs of the past...

.. we see that in the teachings, cultivators are asked.. never to harbour even the slightest trace of hatred against the police men who torture them in prison... not to see it with human thoughts... to see that they themselves are being manipulated by the "evil"...

... The content you are trying to add is terribly inaccurate.... pulling out a few quote from here and there and attributing to them meaning that were never intented is....

-Dilip Rajeev

Let me also add that the "anonymous_user"... is not really anonymous... that is his user name!!!... he is a user with several stars....

The Quotes from Li Hongzhi Say What They Mean
Dilip,

I notice in your response you avoid making reference to Li's many quotes on Fa-rectification, and prefer instead to draw (inacccurate)analogies to other religions. Li Honhzi is a lot clearer than you are in his meaning, especially when it comes to Fa-rectification and practitioners becoming Gods. If you choose not to acknowledge these things publicly, there's little I can do about it. After all, Master Li does say to his practitioners "you absolutely must not speak at the higher levels" when talking with ordinary people. (San Francisco,2005) Why should I expect anything different from you now?

As it stands now, there is no balance or objectivity in the Wikipedia piece. If the anonymous user you refer to has several stars and absolute editing powers, then God bless him.

So let's pretend that the Falun Gong Wikipedia report is complete and balanced, without explaining the concept of Fa-rectification in detail, or without having a section on the very real contorversies about Master Li's teachings (by which I mean other than relations with China.)

Some people will go to Wikipedia and believe what they read. Others will recognize the self-promotion for what it is.

--Tomananda 07:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Explaining some context
You say that the San francisco lecture says: "must not speak at too high a level" .. (you changed the wordings of the quote... but..)let me ask you - what was the context??? isnt it when letting others know about the persecution in China!!!!.... putting it so much out of context is really  nothing more than a joke made in grotesque taste!!!

I must also say that practitioners would point out there is a lot more context to the quotes than what I point out.... ... many would be able to address the issues you have raised in much greater depth and clarity... I respect faith and I apologize to those practitioners who are reading this... further, to understand the context even superficially requires studying the teachings in great depth.... so I wont be able to share with you completely all the context I am aware of... there are pages to be written on each quote if you are have an understanding that can atleast be referred to as  "an understanding"...but I will try to... pls read through in detail...

1. There is no concept of "A God" in cultivation ways... and the aim of cultivation practice is achieving "buddhahood"...Gautama was Mr Gautama before he completed his cultivation and he taught what he had enlightened-to to save people... taught them a path to Buddhahood( or godhood or perfection)...a cultivation way... He taught HIS OWN DHARMA... th dharma he had enlightened to.. Gnostics believe Jesus practiced cultivation in the cultivation way of "The Great Arcanum" ( see www.gnosis-usa.com )... incarnated his christ (achieved buddhahood/ perfection ) and taught what he had enlightened-to to save people... and that masters/buddhas in the gnostic school tkes care of cultivators in that school.... guiding them inn cultivation...

“I am telling you now that Dafa belongs to me, Li Hongzhi. It is taught to save you and spoken from my mouth.”  “Awakening”  (May 27, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I

2. Usually cultivation ways require people to leave the "mundane world".. go through unspeakable hardships and the path is considered almost impossible to walk... the Katha Upanishad (ancient vedic scripture) calls the path of cultivation "The Razor's Edge"... cultivation in a Dafa is considered to be the easiest.. one that be can walked without leaving the mundane world.... and a Dafa is only revealed because of profound historical reasons... If a being cant cultivate to perfection in Dafa... it is considered almost impossible for him to walk the path... his endurance is considered far from adequate... “If I cannot save you, nobody can do it.”   Zhuan Falun, 2nd, edition. p. 160 on-line document at:  http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/index.html

... The dharma is taught to offer salvation to sentient beings... to show them a path (which they themselves must walk) to achive perfection( in every sense of the word)... Like I said before all cultivation ways require the Master to carefully guide the disciple and protect him.... compare similarity with buddhist and gnostic reaching... Gautama Buddha offered salvation to all sentient beings.. he is said to have protected the path of cultivation for his disciples.... All traditions say that it is impossible to cultivate without protection from high level masters.... Gautama Buddha himself said he had masters guiding him and protecting him during cultivation... Li Hongzhi has also said that had masters guiding him in his path of cultivation...

“Because I come precisely to offer salvation to all sentient beings, if I am not responsible to you, reading such things will bring danger to you. Therefore, I must take care of you.”  Falun Dafa Lecture (Sydney Australia), p. 20.

c)

When a Dharma is taught there are profound reasons... The orthodox Fa is not causually taught....

“I am the only person in the world who is teaching orthodox Fa in public. I have done something nobody did in the past and opened such a large door in the Dharma-ending time.”  Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition. p. 101

Regarding what Buddhism says on "Dharma-Ending time":

"Alas! In the evil time

Of the Dharma-Ending Age,

Living beings' blessings are slight,

It is difficult to train them.

Far indeed from the sages of the past!

Their deviant views are deep.

Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;

Many are the wrongs and injuries.

Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,

They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.

The doing is in the mind;

The body suffers the calamities.

There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.

If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],

Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma. "

-Gautama Buddha (SE 62-63)

http://www.drba.org/dharma/btts/9xxentrydetail.asp?wid=89

According to buddhism (Gautama Buddha ) this is the Dharma Ending period in which all the teachings would cease to exist and a Great Way would spread. Hinduism calls this the kali yuga... gnostics also have very similar beliefs regarding the matter... I refer you to the above link to a Buddhist website.. which says this is the Dharma Ending Period... According to the Buddhist scripture the time period during which the orthodox Fa would spread again is characterized by several things including the reversal of Yin and Yang.. which according to chinese belief started in the 60s... according to gnostic belief it started on February 4th 1962....

3.

Dafa is cultivation ... studying Zhuan falun... which is considered by practitioners to encompass great inner meaning and to constantly guide the practitioner in letting go of all attachments like hatred, lust,greed, jealousy .. studying Zhuan Falun IS considered central to progressing in cultivation... we say that in the beliefs section...buddhist monks study the scriptures a lot... why? it guides them in cultivation... always having the teachings in mind helps the practitioner assimilate to zen-shan-ren... and let go of all bad things in his own mind.... exercises are to strengthen energy mechanism that continually transform ones benti.. the teachings guide the practitioner in cultivation...

“Why do I tell you to study, read and memorize Zhuan Falun? It is to guide your cultivation practice! As to those who only do the exercises but do not study the Fa, they are not disciples of Dafa whatsoever.” “What is Cultivation Practice?” (September 6, 1996) Essentials for Further Advancement, English Version.

4.

Achieving "god-hood" is letting go of all bad aggregates/attachments and achieving perfection... according to gnosticism, when all the bad aggregates are removed the WILL is freed to great extent.... and higher faculties emerge.... cultivation ways believe that the human is not a biped mammal with intellect... they say there are much higher faculties in the levels of the being which can be freed when one completes cultivation... and the person is said to have achieved godhood or perfection.... Li Hongzhi also makes clear that perfection can ONLY be acheived by cultivating oneself... Zhuan Falun makes it very clear that it is not achieved by belief or by praying... only through arduous cultivation...

“I will also save you and turn you into Gods…since you'll become Gods at levels that high, I have to give you the honors of Gods at levels that high and all the blessings that you need.” Los Angeles Lecture (February 15, 2003)

5. All taditions believe that it is the Dharama that guides the evolution of the cosmos... the law that guides all cosmic changes.... the law that can guide a cultivator in his course of cultivation... the law that has manifestations at all levels...Dafa means the Great Dharma...

“Dafa is the Fa (Law) of the cosmos, and Dafa has created all beings in the cosmos.” “Using at Will” (June 28, 200) in Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 12.

6. This absolutely is no threatening or anything of that sort!!!! Where did you get that idea from???.... It says that the master protects and guides the cultivator in cultivation; all the way to the end.... I request EVERYBODY reading this to please read the chapter/page containing the quote from Zhuan Falun

“My Fashen (law body) knows everything. He knows everything on your mind, and he can do anything. He will not take care of you if you do not practice cultivation, and he will help you all the way to the end if you practice cultivation.” Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition, p. 170.

In all traditions... distorting/slandering the Dafa is considered the Greatest sin a sentient being can make.... see previous quote by Gautama Buddha too.. Buddha shayamuni sas that he who distorts the Dharma would have to go through 49 levels of Hell. In Pistis Sophia Jesus Christ says that he who slanders a true teaching will have to suffer the "49 demons"... “In recent years some practitioners suddenly died; some of them died precisely because they did such things (plagiarized Li’s Dafa). Don’t think your master might do something to you. You should know that there are numerous guardian Gods of the Fa at various levels whose very duty is to protect the Fa. Furthermore, demons won’t leave you alone!....Once you are reduced to the level of an everyday person, no one will protect you and demons will also take your life.” “Dafa Can Never be Plagiarized” (September 22, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I

7. 'Evil' doesnot refer to the true self of the 'person'!!pls see next section an prvious post i had made.....according to all traditions, Slanderng the dharma is said to bring upon oneself terrible karma... and if a person's words cause a being to lose his oppurtunity to cultivate the sin is considered unforgivable in the gnostic tradition....see buddhist belief in quote above...

“Let me tell you, when this Fa-rectification matter is over, humankind will enter the next stage, and those people and beings who in their minds think that the Great Fa of the cosmos isn’t good will be the first weeded out.”  “Teaching the Fa at the Great Lakes Fa conference in North America (December 9, 2000),  p. 1.

b) Pls see my prev post.. "evil beings" are evil beings that manipulate human minds to sin... never humans...

"You yourself are a primordial self that is unchangeable."...."When one breaks his frame of thought, he will easily feel and perceive his good temperament, disposition, fundamental nature and character which have formed his real self."..."One's Chief Spirit will not change because of the notions it has produced. Chief Spirit will not have its nature changed because of the notions it has produced. The human nature can be buried in, covered with or entirely surrounded by various notions and different kinds of karma and cannot show itself, but it will not change." -Zhuan Falun II

“All the evil beings in the world will be knocked down into hell when the Fa rectifies the human world, and for all eternity they will pay for the sins they committed.”

“A Suggestion” (April 10,2001) in Essentials for Further Advancement II

Note: Since homosexuality is one of the world’s ten evils, and homosexuals have “dark hearts, turning demonic” there’s no question that practicing homosexuals will be “weeded out” by Master Li’s great “Fa-rectification.” See: “The World’s Ten Evils” (July 7, 1998)

See: http://falundafa.org/book/eng/HongYinVB.htm#_Toc110877614

c) ... what is meant by "dregs" of humanity? beings that harm mankind... and what is the "degenrate world"??

"Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out." Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 28

d) All traditions predict huge catastrophies and epidemics during this time... no suffering is considered to be of co-incidential nature... karma is considered to be of material reality in higher dimensions and when mankind's karma reaches terrible extents huge catastrophies and epidemics are said to manifest... that is considered to be the nature of the cosmos... by all traditions.. be it hinduism, gnosticism, buddhism or zoroastrainism... falun dafa lectures say that the immense catastrophies predicted in the ancient scriptures are non-existant....

“The number who will be weeded out is large and terrifying. At the beginning people will still feel shocked, while by the end they'll be numb to it. What kind of state will a person be in when he sees dead people strewn everywhere on the street?” “Teaching the Fa at the 2003 Atlanta Conference” (November 29, 2003) Q & A section.

"Fa- rectification is not a "practice"... it is part of cultivation...The closest phrase I can find to it is the Hindu concept of "Dharma Punastaapana"... The dharma/teachings (Fa) rectifies the practitioners own heart... eliminating all evil within and the evil within the cosmic space encompassed by his bodies( not the physical body).... evil doesnot mean "evil people" ... there is ABSOLUTELY NO SUCH CONCEPT... EVIL refers to aggregates removed from the nature of the cosmos(zen shan ren) that control human thinking .... for instace ancient hindustani scriptures say... "you may hate sin... but never hate the sinner"...

See what Li Hongzhi says about homosexuality: "You are wantonly indulging your thoughts. Your thoughts, like the ones I just mentioned, are not actually you. The mentality that makes you homosexual was driven by postnatally-formed bad things. But you yourself were numbed by them and went along with them and wallowed in the mud. You need to find yourself again and stop doing those filthy things. Gods view them as filthy."

...we see that homosexuality is strongly opposed in all traditions including gnosticism( see quote above from pistis sophia) and Buddist scriptures.. homosexuality is bad... doesnt mean homosexuals are!!!!!! ... hatred is bad.. doesnt mean who ever has felt hatred is!!!

... all cultivation ways clearly distinguish between aggregates that manipualte human thoughts to make them accumulate karma( referred to as evil) and the person himself.... They also point out that some of the greatest cultivators have risen from the sinners of the past...

.. we see that in the teachings, cultivators are asked.. never to harbour even the slightest trace of hatred against the police men who torture them in prison... not to see it with human thoughts... to see that they themselves are being manipulated by the "evil"...

... The content you are trying to add is terribly inaccurate.... pulling out a few quote from here and there and attributing to them meaning that were never intented is...

-Dilip rajeev

One More Time
Dilip,

You've gone off on a tangent. Here are the two paragraphs I wrote:

Central to "Falun Dafa" is belief in Li's God-like role as the exclusive savior (2) of mankind in this "Dharma ending" period. If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to live up to Master Li's Dafa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple (3) and thus not a candidate for salvation. Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods (4) as long as they stand up for the Dafa. Master Li has stated that his Dafa created all beings in the cosmos (5), so in a sense Master Li himself can be considered a creator God.

Also central to the Falun Dafa is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to live up to the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons...sickness, old age and even death will return to them (6). If practitioners live up to the Dafa, they are promised salvation, while non-practitioners who criticize the Dafa, corrupt people, homosexuals and the "dregs" of humanity can expect to be eliminated by Master Li's great law in a process called “Fa-rectification.” (7)

You've offered a lot of extraneous comments, but you have failed to say what of the above you find incorrect. For example, do you disagree with my statement that "Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they stand up for the Dafa." The Master says:

"I will also save you and turn you into Gods…since you'll become Gods at levels that high, I have to give you the honors of Gods at levels that high and all the blessings that you need.” Los Angeles Lecture (February 15, 2003)

So what is wrong with my sentence, if anything?

And by the way, do you believe you are already a God...or on your way to becoming a God? You know, I have been told by some practitioners who are married (hetorsexual) that their spouse has said to them they are a God. But these marriages usually wind up breaking up. Are you married? Is your wife a Falun Gong practitioner? You know, one of the complaints about Falun Gong is how it breaks up families.

--Tomananda 11:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Questioning each others beliefs is off point a bit. We should stick to discussing the article. --Fire Star 14:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Please go through Falun Dafa books
I am not going "off-tangent". I pointed out why your statements are inaccurate ... and that you are (intentionally or otherwise) putting the quotes out of context...

Buddhist concept of cultivation is cultivation of buddhahood... "Buddha-hood" is achieved through cultivation--never by "standing up" for anybody!!! where did u get that idea from....??? A falun gong practitioner is a cultivator- nothing more; nothing less.

My concept of "god" is so very different from yours!!... I request you to please study the books and lectures of the gnostic cultivation way... www.gnosis-usa.com ... you will understand what cultivation ways mean by the concept "god" ...I have never seen any practitioner who has claimed themselves to be gods!!! I have seen Falun Dafa practice bringing peace, joy and health to innumerable families... I am yet to see a family break up because of Falun Dafa... i just happenned to read this article.. I request you to patiently go through the entire article... http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/3/1/70417.htmlhealth survery conductd by reputed researchers show a 99% improvement rate in mental health with Falun Gong practice and a CURE rate of 58%!!!

You may also interact with me over my email id<EMAIL_ADDRESS>
Friend, when you so emphatically want to put foward Falun Gong as a mind control cult ( i cant understand Why!!!).. please see that one of the world's greatest authorities on physchiatry - Abraham L. Halpern, M.D. (Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry, New York Medical College Former President, American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law) .. is himself a Board Member of Friends of Falun Gong ....

 * Again, please sign posts, as you are editing from a rotating IP it is hard to follow sometimes. The issue isn't that any of us think FLG is a cult, it is that Steve Hassan and his colleagues do. It also doesn't matter what any of us think of God or gods. Whether the cult experts take Li's statements out of context or not isn't our problem, they are notable, verifiably documented critics and should be in the article. We can provide the context of what FLG stands for and what its critics believe about them, the reader has to make up their own mind, we don't make it up for them. This is the controversial nature of FLG that I was on about earlier, a lot of people are wary of Li and his public position. We have to report that. --Fire Star 14:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Newly Introduced Paragraphs
The newly introduced paragraphs in the "beliefs" section:

"Another feature of Falun Dafa is promotion of Li's role as the exclusive savior of mankind in this "Dharma ending" period. If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to live up to Master Li's Dafa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple and thus not a candidate for salvation. Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they stand up for the Dafa.

Also found is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to live up to the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons and that sickness, old age and even death will return to them. If practitioners live up to the Dafa, they are promised salvation, while non-practitioners who criticize the Dafa, corrupt people, homosexuals and the "dregs" of humanity can expect to be eliminated by the great law in a process called “Fa-rectification.”"

Has been edited to improve accuracy and bring it closer to what is said in the books... Please see Zhuan Falun... and the quotes below..

Falun Dafa is said to be the only "orthodox Fa" being taught during the "Dharma ending period". Also found is the idea that Master Li protects all disciples during cultivation and that a person may be considered to be a disciple only if he cultivates his xinxing(mind-nature) in accordance with the teachings of Dafa. It is said that while a cultivator can achieve a disease free state; birth, old-age, sickness and death are just "facts of life" for ordinary people. And thus, a person can only be helped if he can elevate his mind-nature to the level of a cultivator.

If practitioners cultivate in accordance with Dafa, it is said that the goal of cultivation practice- Buddhahood can be achieved. It is also said that the cosmic firmament, from very high levels, has deviated from the Fa(Dharma) and that all levels are being rectified by the Fa(Dharma) in the process of Fa-rectification. Slandering the Fa(Dharma) is considered an act that brings terrible karma on oneself. It is also said that those who slander the Dafa, the "dregs" of humanity and others who have accumulated a lot of karma are likely to be eliminated when the Fa(Dharma) rectifies the human world.

-

Never has it been said that "homosexuals" and "corrupt people" are to be eliminAted in Fa rectification... the word "salvation" is rarely used ... it iS the concept of achieving Buddhahood ...... The concept of Fa- Rectification concisely presented before it is dicussed... it is only said that birth old age sickness and deaths are "facts of life" and manifestations of the Fa at this level... never anything to the effect that if a person stops practicing, old-age, sickness and "even" death ...I HAVE BEEN REPEATEDLY TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE IS AN ATTEMPT(DELIBERATE or OTHERWISE) TO COMPLETELY DISTORT WHAT IS SAID IN THE BOOK... I cant understand how this person would miss the word "birth"!!!

and ' "dregs" of humanity ' CHANGED TO ' "dregs of humanity" '(position of the quote)

.... something else of importance that I wanted to point out.... the para added lately said "Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they stand up for the Dafa."!!! .... this lecture from Frankfurt germany, emphatically says:

If any of you sitting here can’t cultivate your xinxing (mind/heart-nature) to the            point  of Consummation, then I can’t do anything about it either

FROM LECTURES IN EUROPE(Germany):

" Since Jesus had such great abilities and his father was Lord of the Caucasians, couldn’t he do whatever he wanted? Why did he spend so much effort on Earth persuading people to do good, telling people principles of the truth, and suffering so much for human beings? And at that time he also had to endure suppression and sabotage from other religions. Why then bother to do things the way he did? It means that even though he had such great abilities, he still had to rectify the human heart in order to save a person.If any of you sitting here can’t cultivate your xinxing to the    point  of Consummation, then I can’t do anything about it either . I can teach you the principles of the Fa, I can help you evolve gong, I can eliminate a portion of your karma for you, I can protect you, and I can do a huge range of things for you that you don’t know about but that are necessary when you Consummate and afterwards. But if your heart doesn’t change and your mind doesn’t elevate, then all of that is in vain. That’s what I mean when I say that if a person’s heart doesn’t change, even a Buddha can’t help him. "

From Zhuan Falun....

"We emphasize one point: If you cannot relinquish the attachment or concern for illness, we cannot do anything and will be unable to help you. Why is this? It is because there is such a principle in the universe: Ordinary human affairs, according to the Buddha School, all have predestined relationships. Birth, old age, illness, and death exist as such for ordinary people. Due to karma resulting from past wrongdoing, one has illnesses or tribulations; suffering is repaying a karmic debt, and thus nobody can casually change this. Changing it means that one would not have to repay the debt after being in debt, and this cannot be done at will. Doing otherwise is the same as committing a bad deed. "......... "Why can this be done for a practitioner, then? It is because a practitioner is most precious, for he or she wants to practice cultivation. Therefore, developing this thought is most precious. ".... .."Therefore, once a person wants to practice cultivation, his or her Buddha-nature is considered to have come forth. Such a thought is most precious, for this person wants to return to his or her original, true self and transcend the ordinary human level. Perhaps everyone has heard this statement in Buddhism: “When one’s Buddha-nature emerges, it will shake ‘the world of ten directions.’” Whoever sees it will come to give a hand and help this person out unconditionally. In providing salvation to humankind, the Buddha School does not attach any condition or seek returns, and it will help unconditionally. Accordingly, we can do many things for practitioners. But for an everyday person who just wants to be an everyday person and to cure his or her illness, it will not work." Dilip rajeev 17:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star, Please donot replace the factual verion of the paragraphs in the beliefs section with a POV version. i was thinking it is an edit conflit... I am the praragraphs with the factual version. Please see to it that it is not reverted... Tibetan tantrism, lamaism, shakyamunis teachings are all considered cultivation ways in falun dafa... it is never said that falun gong is the only cultivation way!!See my above post too... -Dilip Rajeev

Florid prose ==

The rewrite of Tomananda's latest paragraphs that I have reverted twice now introduces language that implies (among other things) that any criticism of FLG is "slander". That itself is a POV. I feel that the language should be left in the drier version, instead of the version that reads like an FLG advert. --Fire Star 17:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star,

I used the word slander becaue that is the word used in the lectures... it is NOT SAID ANYWHERE THAT "CRITICIZING" The Dharma would bring a lot of karma on the inividual.... the word used in the lectures is "SLANDER"... i think "slander" and "criticism" are different....

 * But the version you are putting in doesn't have the word slander in quotes. Without quotes, it has to be a paraphrase, and "criticizing" is a neutral description of behaviour to be punished by "Fa-rectification". The wording is going to have to be changed. You have said in edit summaries that it isn't "remotely factual" yet Tomananda has done a pretty good job of documenting these things to be what Li has said. FLG practitioners may see what Li has said many different ways, but unless the interpretation is published elsewhere (and even then it will be one interpretation of many) we shouldn't have it in the article. --Fire Star 19:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star,

Criticism and slander are different things. The lectures say slandering the dafa is an act that brings karma on oneself... we say in the beliefs section that slandering the dahma is considered....

I am not talking about interpretations. A quote has no meaning outside the "context"... If you just read the pargraph surrounding the quote or the chapter it is in, you will understand what I am talking about... and you may verify for yourself by reading the books...

"not even remotely factual" is to put it mildly.. let me please point out a few things....

Tomananada says according to Falun Gong, one can achieve comsummation (he uses the word salvation) by "standing up" for falun gong!!! it is repeatedly said in the lectures only by cultivating one's xinxing can you go forward in cultivation... and even praying or hoping for things to go well in cultivation is considered futile:

"If any of you sitting here can’t cultivate your xinxing to the point of Consummation, then I can’t do anything about it either..." - Lectures in Europe

It is said in the lectures that while a cultivator can achieve a disease free state; birth, old-age, sickness and death are just "facts of life" for ordinary people. And thus, a dis-ease free state can be achieved only if a person can elevate his mind-nature to the level of a cultivator. but tomananda puts it as :

"if they fail to live up to the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons and that sickness, old age and even death will return to them."

you wont find anything of that sort in the lectures!!! and pls note the "even death" part!!!

Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy
I have added a request for comment at the above link in order to solicit further input on this apparent impasse. --Fire Star 17:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Response to Request for Comments
Fire Star: I am happy with your most recent edit Revision 3:16 13 march 2006. However, I have spent most of today composing a long response to your request for comments which winds up with slightly different wording, but the same meaning. Either version (your's or mine) is fine with me. I'm very sorry for adding so much length to the discussion page:

Revision as of 16:15, 12 March 2006

Line 37:

1. Paragraph One, sentence one:

Another feature of Falun Dafa is promotion of Li’s roles as the exclusive savior of mankind in the “Dharma ending” period.

Sources:

a) “Except for the demons that will deceive you, nobody else will teach you and you will not be able to practice cultivation in the future. If I cannot save you, nobody else can do it.”   Zhuan Falun, 2nd, edition.  p. 160 on-line document at:   http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lecture8.html#4

b) “Because I come precisely to offer salvation to all sentient beings, if I am not responsible to you, reading such things will bring danger to you.  Therefore, I must take care of you.”   Falun Dafa Lecture (Sydney Australia), p. 20. http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/xnjf1.htm

c) “Some people say, ‘If I believe in Jesus, I will be able to go to heaven.’ I say that you won't. Why not? It is because people nowadays do not understand the true meaning of what Jesus said.” Falun Dafa Lecture (Sydney, Australia), p.4 http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/xnjf1.htm

d) “The Dharma taught by Sakyamuni was provided for ordinary people of the extremely low levels two thousand five hundred years ago, who just evolved from the primitive society with simple minds.  The Dharma-ending Period that he referred to is today.  Now people can no longer practice cultivation with that Dharma. Even monks in temples cannot save themselves in the Dharma-ending period, let alone offer salvation to others.”    Zhuan Falun, 2nd print edition, p.13

Comment:

The words save (in the soteriological sense) or salvation were spoken by Master Li 40 times in the Sydney speech alone.

2. Paragraph One, sentence Two:

If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to live up to Master Li’s Dafa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple and thus not a candidate for salvation.

Source:

“Why do I tell you to study, read and memorize Zhuan Falun? It is to guide your cultivation practice! As to those who only do the exercises but do not study the Fa, they are not disciples of Dafa whatsoever.”  “What is Cultivation Practice?”  (September 6, 1996)  Essentials for Further Advancement, English Version. http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz51.htm

Comments:

1). In order to make the edit correspond exactly with Li’s words (see 4b), I would agree to change “fail to live up to the requirements of the Dafa” to “do not follow the requirements of the Fa.”

2) I do not object to substituting the word consummation for salvation, but then this would require defining the word consummation. Since salvation is the more general word, understood by everyone, I argue that it works better in this very short summary.

3. Paragraph One, sentence Three:

Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they stand up for the Dafa.

Sources:

a) “I have truly borne for you the sins you committed over hundreds and thousands of years. And it doesn't stop at just that. Because of this, I will also save you and turn you into Gods. I have spared no effort for you in this process. Along with this, since you'll become Gods at levels that high, I have to give you the honors of Gods at levels that high and all the blessings that you need to have at levels that high.” (Applause) Fa-Lecture During the 2003 Lantern Festival at the U.S. West Fa Conference (February 15, 2003) http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2003/2/27/32713.html

b) “A Dafa disciple who fails to achieve the effect of the safeguarding and upholding Dafa has no way of reaching Consummation.”  “Fa-Rectification Period Dafa Disciples,”  Same source as C below:

c) “Dafa disciples are magnificent because you are here at the same time as the period of Master’s Fa-rectification and are able to safeguard and uphold Dafa. If what you do is no longer worthy of a Dafa disciple, think about it, if under the greatest mercy since the beginning of Heaven and Earth and under Buddha’s infinite grace you still can’t do well, how could there be another chance?” “Fa-Rectification Period Dafa Disciples,” Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 40 http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_40.htm

Comments:

1).  Li’s promise to turn his practitioners into Gods appears fairly frequently in his more recent speeches. It’s a comment that usually elicits a lot of applause from his devoted disciples.  Who wouldn’t want to be turned into a God?

2). “Safeguarding and upholding the Dafa” is an essential requirement that Master Li puts on his practitioners. He speaks about it frequently.  In these quotes, he explicitly associates that requirement with both “reaching consummation” and being “worthy of a Dafa disciple.”

By replacing my wording with the statement that a person can be considered a disciple “only if he cultivates his xinxing (mind-nature) in accordance with the teachings of the Dafa” practitioner Dilip is engaging in apologetics (to use Fire Star’s term). It is essential to explicitly state Li’s larger teaching that you must also “safeguard and uphold the Dafa” in order to be considered his disciple.

3) In keeping with the spirit of making the summary words agree with Li’s own words,  even when they are not directly quoted,  I would agree to changing “stand up for the Dafa” to “safeguard and uphold the Dafa.”

4. Paragraph Two, sentence one:

Also found is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to live up to the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons and that sickness, old age and even death will return to them.

Sources:

a) “Practitioners will gain protection from my Law Bodies (fashen) when they accept my Falun Dafa teachings and genuinely practice cultivation. As long as you persevere in practicing cultivation, my Law Bodies will protect you until you reach Consummation. Should you decide to stop cultivating at some point, my Law Bodies will leave you.” The Great Consumation Way of Falun Dafa (translation updated April 2001) http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/dymf_1.htm#8

b) “If you do not follow the requirements of the Fa, you are not a practitioner of Falun Dafa. Because you want to be an everyday person, your body will be reset to the level of everyday people and the bad things will be returned to you.”  “Issue of Pursuit,”  Zhuan Falen, Third Edition,,Internet (March 2000) http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lecture2.html#5

c) “If you follow the right way in cultivation practice, nobody will dare to touch you casually. Besides, you have the protection of my Fashen (law body), and you will not run into any danger.”  “What Has the Teacher Given to Practitioners,”  Zhuan Falen, Third Edition, Internet (March 2000): http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lecture3.html#8

d) “Falun Gong cultivators look quite different in age from everyday people—they do not look their actual age. So the primary features of cultivation methods that cultivate both mind and body are: prolonging life, deterring aging, and lengthening people’s life expectancy.” “Characteristics of Falun Gong Cultivation in Falun Gong”  in Falun Gong (4th translation edition, April 2001) http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_2.htm#3

Here are some examples of “bad things” that are removed, but can return to you:

-- illness and aging: While you are cultivating “you will look like an ordinary person from the appearance. The only difference is that you will appear younger than those who are your age. Certainly, the bad things in your body will, first of all, have to be removed, including illnesses.” Zhuan Falun, Third Edition, Internet (March 2000) http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lecture1.html#7

-- death for those who plagiarize Li’s Dafa: “In recent years some practitioners suddenly died; some of them died precisely because they did such things. Don’t think your master might do something to you. You should know that there are numerous guardian Gods of the Fa at various levels whose very duty is to protect the Fa. Furthermore, demons won’t leave you alone!....Once you are reduced to the level of an everyday person, no one will protect you and demons will also take your life.”  “Dafa Can Never be Plagiarized”   (September 22, 1996)  Essentials for Further Advancement I. http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz55.htm

Comments:

1. I would agree to change “fail to live up to the requirements of the Dafa” to “do not follow the requirements of the Fa.”

2. The above quotes fully establish the idea that Li and his Fashen (law bodies) protect Falun Gong practitioners. It is an essential teaching. In fact, virtually all of the benefits that a practitioner gets from cultivating are at some point dependent upon the direct intervention of Master Li. He installs a Falun (rotating law wheel) in the abdomen of each of the practitioners, which is necessary for cultivation. His Fashen knows everything on a practitioner’s minds, but will not take care of that practitioner if he does not practice cultivation. And in the karma-elimination process, although a practitioner can get rid of a lot of his karma by his own cultivating efforts, he cannot eliminate all of his karma without the direct help of the Master.

3. The above quotes also clearly establish the idea that through cultivation, and with Master Li’s help, practitioners can reap benefits such as having illness removed,  deterring aging and prolonging life.

4. While practitioner Dilip is correct in pointing out that a practitioner must also cultivate his xinxing (mind-nature) as part of the practice, he fails to acknowledge the essential role of Master Li. Although Li has never claimed to be God, he does claim powers that only a God could have and, when pressed, many practitioners will admit to thinking of him as God. But they are told by Li not to talk to ordinary people about Gods or the higher level teachings. Li said exactly that last year at a speech in San Francisco. The reason why writing an objective piece about the Falun Gong is so difficult is because practitioners hold back their core beliefs. Yes, it is all available on the internet...but how many people have the patience to ferrit it all out?

5. Paragraph Two, sentence two:

'''If practitioners live up to the Dafa, they are promised salvation, while non-practitioners who criticize the Dafa,  corrupt people and the “dregs of humanity” can expect to be eliminated by the great law in a process called “Fa-rectification.”

'''Sources:

a) weeding out people who don’t think the Dafa is good:

“Let me tell you, when this Fa-rectification matter is over, humankind will enter the next stage, and those people and beings who in their minds think that the Great Fa of the cosmos isn’t good will be the first weeded out.”  “Teaching the Fa at the Great Lakes Fa conference in North America (December 9, 2000),  p. 1.

b) weeding out “evil beings”

“All the evil beings in the world will be knocked down into hell when the Fa rectifies the human world, and for all eternity they will pay for the sins they committed.” “A Suggestion” (April 10, 2001) Essentials for Further Advancement II http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_25.htm

c) weeding out “the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world” “Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out.”  Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 28: http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz2_28.htm

Comments:

1. I would agree to change “live up to the Dafa”  to “follow the requirements of the Fa” so that the wording will reflect Li’s words exactly.

2. Concerning the categories of people who will be “weeded out” in Master Li’s Fa-rectification, I agree to word changes that will reflects Li’s words more exactly. The complete new sentence now reads:

“If practitioners follow the requirements of the Fa they are promised salvation, while people who think that the Dafa isn’t good, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world can expect to be eliminated by the Dafa in a process called “Fa-rectification.”

A possible revised edit becomes:

Another feature of Falun Dafa is promotion of Li’s role as the exclusive savior of mankind in the “Dharma ending” period. If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to follow the requirements of the Fa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple and thus not a candidate for salvation. Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they safeguard and uphold the Dafa.

Also found is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to follow the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons and that sickness, old age and even death will return to them. If practitioners follow the requirements of the Fa they are promised salvation, while people who think that the Dafa isn’t good, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world can expect to be eliminated by the Dafa in a process called “Fa-rectification.” --Tomananda 10:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Violation of Wikipedia Etiquette
Fire Star: I spent many hours documenting the two paragraph edit above using Li Honzhi wording throughout. It is an important and accurate reflection of Falun Gong beliefs, but one which Falun Gong practitioners don't like. As you know, Dilip had posted his own two paragraph version which can be considered apologetics and you had twice previously deleted his version through the use of revisions. Now I find a new Falun Gong practitioner has again re-posted the Dilip version using as his justification "descriptive version preferred."

As I've said before, Falun Gong practitioners work hard to conceal Master Li's higher level teachings from the public. If you read Master Li's November, 2005 San Francisco speech you will see why: Li Hongzhi SF Speech

There are thousand of Falun Gong practitioners who could log on to Wikipedia every day and re-post the Dilip version over and over again. This would be nonsense. Instead of respondig to the justifications I have entered above, practitioner Aparna is simply trying to force a particular point of view.

I've gone ahead and posted my version for the first time.

Can you intervene to make sure proper Wikipedia edit is followed in this discussion?

--Tomananda 19:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Greetings. I do keep this page on my watchlist, and I have recently posted a request for input at Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy. That is just a first step. If we get buried, I will ask other administrators to step in, and they can protect the page, ban spammers, etc. I feel it is unethical for myself to exercise such functions because I have edited here so much. I appreciate what you've contributed, as well as others, because we do want a fair and neutral presentation. Dilip has compromised quite a bit, and I am always willing to, but I feel that verifiable information should not be removed or glossed over in any article. I'm helping out as a 3rd party in a dispute over at Mahavatar Babaji that may interest you. The dispute is a little different, but the religious nature of the article and how to deal with such a hotbutton diplomatically is always interesting! Regards, --Fire Star 21:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The San Fransisco lecture only says that practitioners must not talk "at too high a level" when telling people about the "persecution" in china. Falun Gong practitioners believe there are higher cosmic factors behind it. I dont see anything like you imply in the lecture.

"Aparna" has only made the context behind the things you put in clear. I dont think she removed any information. I certainly would prefer a version that makes context clear and brings more facts to the reader over a POV. Msriram 14:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Generalized Apologetics is Not a Response to a Serious Revision
So now it begins, a parade of Falun Gong practitioners editing in the same two paragraphs that Dilip entered some days ago, again and again, not once referring to the actual wording in the revision I submitted before Dilip replaced my two paragraphs with his, or the copious sources I have cited to justify that language (see item #24 above). This is not how a cooperative discussion about Wikipedia content is supposed to occur. Vital information to understanding what the Falun Gong really teaches has been systematically edited out by practitioners, and that should not be allowed to stand.

Msriram, Aparna and Dilip: Why do you continue to reject my wording that comes directly from Master Li concerning his self-proclaimed role as savior; Fa-rectification and the people who will be weeded out; and how he promises to turn practitioners into Gods? A careful review of Master Li's statements will show that the language I have used reflects exactly what he has said in countless writings, recent speeches, the Essentials, and elsewhere. Fa-rectification and Li's role as the only Savior of mankind in this Dharma-ending period is core to the teaching and you know it. Yet you want to conceal any meaningful report on that. Why?

Here's what Master Li said in his San Francisco speech:

"So when you clarify the truth you absolutely must not speak at too high a level." He went on to tell practitioners they should only talk about the persecution in China and then concluded "As for high-level cultivation and gods, you shouldn't talk about those things."

Yet in Wikipedia we must "talk about those things" if the piece on Falun Gong is going to have any pretense of objectivity and balance. Just because the Master wants you to focus on the persecution now, does not justify editing out the soteriological teachings of Master Li. Otherwise, the Wikipedia piece becomes nothing more than an advertisment for the Falung Gong's political agenda in China.

If there is an administrator monitoring this discussion, I ask that you read through the postings above and weigh in on this debate. It doesn't make sense to revert over and over again the same two paragraphs.

--Tomananda 03:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Greetings, Tomananda. I don't oppose to mentioning these things in the article, but you don't seem to assume good faith and acknowledge that other people have indeed tried to contextualize them, not simply "cover them up". For sure, their editions have not been entirely neutral, either, but instead of obstinately reverting the changes, each party should be open to suggestions. Certain questions do stir up emotional reactions, but we must strive towards objectivity and neutrality in any case. An editor isn't necessarily able to perceive his or her own bias. This applies to you, me, as well as any other contributor.

 * You say you've been studing Li Hongzhi's teachings in-depth, but you still seem to omit crucial aspects of the articles. Li has stated multiple times that specifically those who directly commit sins against the Buddha Dharma, support the persecution and choose the side of the Chinese Communist Party will be in serious trouble. Of course, people have different interpretations, and I think Li elaborates on the issue from multiple viewpoints. But considering the quotes below, for example, your additions are not sufficient, nor do they convey a neutral representation of his teachings.

 * I think the idea of "not speaking on too high level" has nothing to do with hiding the actual content of the teachings. If anybody is interested, he has access to all the material instantly. But if somebody's personal view of the world doesn't conform to Falun Dafa's teachings, he doesn't have to have anything to do with all this stuff about gods, cultivation and Buddhahood. How convenient - nobody's trying to convert you, and you're just asked to condemn the CCP's crimes against humanity, which is something that every moral person ought to agree with. But there are actually lots of muddle-headed individuals who have lost their conscience; just because they don't agree with the "high-level" content of Dafa, they actually believe that the persecution, imprisonments, torture, murders and organ harvesting are somehow justified or acceptable to a greater or lesser extent, and that is indeed dangerous (from Falun Dafa's point of view).

 * I think you should comment on the following quotes. Shouldn't we add these things to the article as well?

 * 1. In the Fa-rectification, Master is actually saving all beings, not just the good ones; evil ones are of course included as well. I have often said that during the Fa-rectification I don't hold the past faults of any sentient being against him, and that I look only at a sentient being's attitude toward Dafa during the Fa-rectification. In other words, no matter which beings they are or how huge the mistakes and sins they committed in history, as long as they do not play a negative role with regard to the Fa-rectification, I can give them benevolent solutions and eliminate their sins and karma. That is the greatest mercy and true salvation. That's because in the universe positive and negative beings co-exist, and that is the principle of yin and yang and their mutual generation. (Turning the Wheel Towards the Human World)

 * 2. It is for the purpose of saving all beings and saving the people in the world today that we help people to see the wicked CCP for what it is. Of course, no matter how the CCP tries to hide the evil face of its wicked gangster regime, once the world's people come to know it for what it is, they will realize that it is evil, and they will not cooperate with it anymore, choosing instead to withdraw from the Party. And that is when it ceases to exist. But that is not what we are trying to do--our goal is to save sentient beings. Many things here in the human world, here in the delusion, are hard to see for what they are, so it's a matter of how people look at and understand things. (Teaching the Fa in the City of Chicago, 2005)

 * 3. When Dafa rectifies the Fa in the cosmos, things are carried out in a way different from in any cultivation form of the past, where [the cultivation form] would be responsible for only one particular type of being or the beings within only a certain range. Fa-rectification is to save all beings that can be saved, which includes all forms of life that are created by gods and are present in a person’s main body. What’s more, many people have undergone great hardships over the course of the long, drawn-out years, so how could they not be saved? Aren’t humans the primary beings in the Three Realms? Don’t all of the beings in the Three Realms need to be saved? Then this cultivation form as well as the foundation that the human race has laid and the suffering that it has gone through over the course of the long years of history—isn’t it exactly these things that have enabled human beings to gain the greatest mighty-virtue of all time? And shouldn’t these beings be deemed the most outstanding and considered first for salvation? When this human place is made the base point of Fa-rectification, isn’t it only fitting that the first priority be to set free this group of beings, human beings? (Teaching the Fa at the 2005 Canada Fa Conference)

 * 4. Everything that Dafa disciples are doing today and everything in society you encounter, I can tell you, you are saving all beings. So no matter what kind of person you meet, what strata of society he’s from, or what profession he’s in, don’t think that you’re just going to him to explain the truth merely because evil is persecuting Dafa disciples. I’ll tell you, saving all beings is first and foremost, and clarifying the truth is the way to save people. When people understand the facts and find out how wicked the persecution is, people will naturally know what to do. And if afterwards you ask him to lend support and do something about it, that’s him choosing a future. So with those people who’ve been deceived in the persecution, all the more so, how could you not give them a chance? If you don’t tell them the facts they will lose their futures forever. (Teaching the Fa at the 2003 Atlanta Fa Conference)

 * Later I can search for more similar quotes related to these issues, if you wish, but right now I don't have time for intense scrutiny. I think it's obvious that a person's attitude towards the persecution is the only determining factor.

 * As for people's bodies being returned back to their original state if they don't cultivate according to Dafa, that might just be true. I'm really surprised to see the "supernatural" changes in a lot of people's bodies, including my own; sometimes, the practitioners' radiant appearance is truly eye-catching. They got it by cultivating in Falun Dafa, so I don't have problems believing that it might be gone if they decide to stop.

 * Humans becoming "gods" through cultivation practice isn't really a new idea, maybe it just seems unbelievable to a lot of folks. We're basically talking about forgotten cultural heritage. Besides, the concept of a "god" is not exactly the same in Eastern and Western traditions:

 * Suppose a man sitting here could do things without moving his hands and feet, [and] the other people could not do [them] even by moving their hands and feet - in those backward times [in ancient China], wouldn't people have called him a god? But actually, he's just a man with a cultivation achievement. (Lecture 1, audio recording from Guangzhou 1994)

 * I look forward to your comments, and I do believe we can reach a consensus. All the best to you, Tomananda!

 * ---Olaf Stephanos 15:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

What the fuck do you know of Chinese history anyway? Oh the CCP harvest organs just because the Epoch Times said so?Someone can't grasp the concept of NOPV--PatCheng 05:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

POV edits
Tomananda, Friend, I think the quotes pointed out by Olaf Stephanos quite clearly show that Falun Gong doesnt have the kind of beliefs you talk about in the paragraphs. And I dont consider pointing out errors in the paragraph should be labelled should be labelled "apologetics". I am quite sure that you understand that too. The paragraphs are, as pointed out, inaccurate. I think we must keep the paragraph (either version) out of the text till we reach a consensus through further discussion. The content of the paragraph is not something that long term editors of this article (like Olaf Stephanos) agree with. I think the paragraph requires futher dicussion, and the consent of multiple editors. Dilip rajeev 16:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Dilip:

You are wrong. Every statement in the two paragraphs is supported by Master Li Hongzhi's own teachings and the citations for the quotes are provided in topic #24 above. You are avoiding acknowledging the truth of Master Li's teachings to the general public, and that is a component of apologetics as defined by Wikipedia. The two paragraphs in question were, in fact, a revision of my words done by Fire Star and entered by him at the place you now find them. Fire Star, as you know, is an editor.

Fire Star: Please help. This kind of bullying by multiple FG practitioners is not fair, nor is there any reason in the argument. If there is a POV in my two paragrpahs, it is Master Li Hongzhi's point of view, which the practitioners don't want to be made public.

--Tomananda 18:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

 * A POV doesn't only consist of what is said; it also involves what is not said, as well as what expressions are used. As I said, I don't oppose to mentioning these things in the article, but they must be contextualised by further information. Editing such a controversial article is not easy, and nobody should insert his or her contribution by fiat. I have nothing against a consensus. We're editors discussing an article, not "bullies". Regards, Olaf Stephanos 19:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Olaf: The comment about "bullying" had to do with the succession of practioners who one after another simply replaced my edit, which had previously been posted on the discussion page for comments, with a radical revision done by Dilip. I have provided copious citations for my modest edit revision which, by the way, was placed where it now is by Fire Star. I have accepted that it can be relegated to the end of the Beliefs section, but I cannot accept that over and over again practitioners simply delete and replace it with their own two paragraphs, while also claiming what I have written is inaccurate. It is not.

Perhaps the problem here is that no one wants to read through the long list of citations I provided above (see item #24) so in the spirit of cooperation I have added a Li Hongzhi quote to the text to support the first paragraph. I can certainly do a similar addtion for the second paragraph, but would appreciate any comments there are concerning the first paragraph. --Tomananda 20:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Olaf: Are you the same Finnish graduate student of cultural history and comparative religion who has done some postings on the homophobia of the Falun Gong at the sf.indymedia.org website? The person who posted on that website identified himself as a Falun Gong practitioner, saying "And I really think Falun Gong hit the bull's eye: in my opinion, this is the real thing." If you are one and the same person, can you really be objective as a higher level editor on this piece? Is it possible to get a second editor involved in this discussion, so that there's a real balance of opinions at the editor level? --Tomananda 22:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Very succinctly, Li Hongzhi does indeed seem to promise that he is a universal saviour and that by following him precisely he can change you into a divine being. Also, not everyone who is sceptical of Li and FLG approves of what the CCP has done to them. Wikipedia isn't a place for FLG practitioners to explain away what Li has said, or to assert that FLG is orthodox Buddhist or Taoist teaching, or for anyone else to assert that the CCP is right and FLG had it coming. Editors with a pro-FLG POV are welcome to edit, but as the edit screen says If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. In any Wikipedia article, if other editors don't agree with what you are putting in, they are going to change it. I have modified Tomananda's prose somewhat on occasion, as people have modified mine. If someone were to come here and put in the article that Li Hongzhi is a baby-eating demon, I would take that out, too. If people really want their version in, the first step in a compromise is to include it without removing the work of others. That is much less likely to be completely removed than an edit at the expense of someone else. There is no gurantee that it won't at least be changed, of course. A friend of mine told me he didn't like Wikipedia because he thought it was like "writing in sand". That is how it must seem to people who feel attached to their writing. --Fire Star 23:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, I dont think your strategy of saying anybody who differs with your view point is a falun gong practitioner is ... I read through the links you posted. I dont see anything like you are talking about. You even exaggerated the statements made by the cult experts!! Aparna r 18:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Aparna: You'll find all the sources for the cult experts in the discussion above at:

 * Actually, the bits taken out are pretty clearly referenced here: . I'm going to be reverting. --Fire Star 18:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

...
The quote is sourced. But the text of the paragraphs are far from being factual. Dilip rajeev 20:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Tomananda's accusation
You have been repeatedly making this accusation. And that is why I write this. It is only said in the lectures that the act of homosexuality is bad ( distinguish that from the person)... It is very clearly said that the person may cultivate if he can break out of that...

...Infact all the traditions I know, be it Buddhism, Christianity, or Gnosticism dont consider homosexuality normal... In Buddhism, it is, by precept, PROHIBIDDEN( see below) for a homosexual to become a monk!! Does that mean buddhists are "homophobic"??

...

The Ancient Gnostic Bible, "Pistis Sophia", considered by many scholars to be authentic teachings of Jesus Christ, says :

Bartholomew said: “A man who hath intercourse with a male, what is his vengeance?”

Jesus said: “The measure of the man who hath intercourse with males and of the man with whom he lieth, is the same as that of the blasphemer.

“When then the time is completed through the sphere, the receivers of Yaldabaōth come after their soul, and he with his forty-and-nine demons taketh vengeance on it eleven years.

“Thereafter they carry it to the fire-rivers and seething pitch-seas, which are full of demons with pigs’ faces. They eat into them and take vengeance on them in the fire-rivers another eleven years.

“Thereafter they carry them into the outer darkness until the day of judgment when the great darkness is judged; and then they will be dissolved and destroyed."

The Buddhist Scriptures Say:

"The pandaka (Pali for "homosexual") had been ordained in a residence of monks. He went to the young monks and encouraged them thus, 'Come all of you and assault me.'

"The monks spoke aggressively, 'Pandaka, you will surely be ... spiritually destroyed. Of what benefit will it be?" ...

He went to some large, stout novices and encouraged them thus, 'Come all of you and assault me.'

The novices spoke, 'Pandaka, you will surely be destroyed. Of what benefit will it be?'

"The pandaka then went to men who tend elephants and horses and spoke to them thus. 'Come all of you and assault me.' The men who tend elephants and horses assaulted him.

"The Blessed One then ordered the monks, 'Behold monks, a pandaka is one who is not to be ordained, ... and (pandakas) who have already been ordained must be made to disrobe. "

A Conversation with A Gnostic Master:

Question: A homosexual who regenerates is not a homosexual any more?

Answer: Have you ever known any homosexuals, who in their life have truly, one hundred percent, stopped being homosexual?

There are none, because they are degenerated seeds, they can not be remade, because they are rotten. It is like degenerated vegetable seeds, which do not germinate, even being sown in a very good soil and in the best conditions, they do not germinate because they are degenerated.

So, there are also human seeds, human germs, which even being germs, are degenerated, and in any way they can be changed (or improved). Try to regenerate a seed, a vegetable germ, try to place it in perfect conditions to germinate, to see if it germinates after demonstrating that it is degenerated. Obviously it would not germinate. The same happens with the germs deposited in the sexual glands; a degenerated germ never germinates. A man can not come from it; he is a lost case.

"Normally the infrasexuals of homosexuality and lesbianism enter into the submerged involution of the infernal worlds. Very rare are those cases in which (through supreme pain) they repent and in a new existence they are born amongst normal people. Those cases are very rare, they can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and we will still have some fingers left. "

Question: Can in the next lives, a homosexual or a lesbian, get that (appropriate) condition? Can they change? Or are they going already into a complete involution?

Answer: It could happen that, through great repentance and great pain, in a future existence, they could have a very normal body. After having passed through great pain, that is possible.

Question: Master, I have a friend, who has committed herself to treat homosexuals to find out if she can regenerate them, and in her long experience as psychologist, she has never been able to regenerate any of them.

Answer: Because it is completely impossible, they are degenerated seeds. Tell your friend not to waste her time foolishly. That is impossible, a degenerated seed, is degenerated.

Many Western Inner Traditions call the homosexual the "The Male Vampire"... And Zoroastrainism.. one of the world's oldest religions .. says... ""The man that lies with mankind as man lies with womankind, or as woman lies with mankind, is the man that is a Daeva [demon]; this one is the man that is a worshipper of the Daevas, that is a male paramour of the Daevas"" -The Venidad

I dont think I need to quote the Bible... or the teachings of Judaism.... Do all these traditions fall under your definition for being "homophobic"... ?

Dilip: Your efforts to justify the intense homophobia of Li Hongzhi based on citing the anti-homosexuality teachings of other religions, while interesting, is not what is currently being discussed here. As far as I know, no one has proposed any edits to the Wikipedia Falun Gong page concerning homosexuality. I know that Master Li does not consider me human for being homosexual...I have a "dark heart, turning demonic" and my form of love does not "meet the standard of being human"....but so be it. I don't expect Master Li to be very sophisticated when it comes to issues of homosexuality having grown up, as he did, in rural China.

If you really want to pursue an in-depth discussion about the homophobia of the Falun Gong as it relates to the teachings of other religions, I suggest we take this conversation off the Wikipedia discussion site all together.

There was a very lengthy discussion about the homophobia of the Falun Gong at this site: Do you want to discuss this further there? --Tomananda 00:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Disapproval of homosexuality is by no means exclusive to FLG. It is, however, a notable feature of FLG. If other groups also disapprove, then it is very likely to be mentioned at their articles too. In the articles, we shouldn't say FLG are justified or unjustified in their disapproval, just that they express it. Different people see things differently. Just as many will be disgusted by apparent intolerance, there are going to be very many readers who will approve of FLG's stance, I'm sure! --Fire Star 06:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Pointing out POVs
Tomananda, you are using too many manipulative tactics to influence other editors.

1. Where is it said: "Also found is the idea that Master Li protects all his disciples, but that if they fail to follow the requirements of his Dafa he will withdraw his protection and their bodies will be returned to those of ordinary persons and that sickness, old age and even death will return to them."?

In Zhuan Falun it is said: "If you cannot relinquish the attachment or concern for illness, we cannot do anything and will be unable to help you. Why is this? It is because there is such a principle in the universe: Ordinary human affairs, according to the Buddha School, all have predestined relationships. Birth, old age, illness, and death exist as such for ordinary people. Due to karma resulting from past wrongdoing, one has illnesses or tribulations; suffering is repaying a karmic debt, and thus nobody can casually change this. Changing it means that one would not have to repay the debt after being in debt, and this cannot be done at will. Doing otherwise is the same as committing a bad deed. "

Let me ask you: where is it said that stopping cultivation practice would result in "even death" returning to the practitioner.

2. "Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they safeguard and uphold the Dafa."

From Lecture in Frankfurt, Germany:

" Since Jesus had such great abilities and his father was Lord of the Caucasians, couldn’t he do whatever he wanted? Why did he spend so much effort on Earth persuading people to do good, telling people principles of the truth, and suffering so much for human beings? And at that time he also had to endure suppression and sabotage from other religions. Why then bother to do things the way he did? It means that even though he had such great abilities, he still had to rectify the human heart in order to save a person. If any of you sitting here can’t cultivate your xinxing to the point of Consummation, then I can’t do anything about it either . I can teach you the principles of the Fa, I can help you evolve gong, I can eliminate a portion of your karma for you, I can protect you, and I can do a huge range of things for you that you don’t know about but that are necessary when you Consummate and afterwards. But if your heart doesn’t change and your mind doesn’t elevate, then all of that is in vain. That’s what I mean when I say that if a person’s heart doesn’t change, even a Buddha can’t help him. ""

Isnt it very clearly said that one can achieve (godhood) consummation only by cultivating one's mind-nature??

3. "requirement of Dafa" Where do you get that term from? and what are these "requirements" you speak about??

Let me keep the paras out till issues are resolved the version to be put in agreed upon. Dilip rajeev 20:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Dilip: We all have our POV's.  The point here is that you have deleted the two paragraphs once again which is not in the spirit of cooperative article building. You'll notice that Fire Star has reverted the text back to the earlier version. You must by now also be aware that I have provided multiple sources for every thing that I included in those two paragraphs. You also continue to mis-represent what I have said. For example, I never said that death would result merely from stopping Falun Gong cultivation. Here's the Master Li quote:

Death for those who plagiarize Li’s Dafa: “In recent years some practitioners suddenly died; some of them died precisely because they did such things. Don’t think your master might do something to you. You should know that there are numerous guardian Gods of the Fa at various levels whose very duty is to protect the Fa. Furthermore, demons won’t leave you alone!....Once you are reduced to the level of an everyday person, no one will protect you and demons will also take your life.”  “Dafa Can Never be Plagiarized”   (September 22, 1996)  Essentials for Further Advancement I.

So there you have it: if you do something really bad, like plagiarizing Master Li's Dafa, he withdraws his protection and warns that the demons will get you. These types of threats by Master

title: Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 5