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Talk:Le Sage's theory of gravitation/Archive 4

POV?
I think the POV tag at the beginning of the article should be removed. The entire article is mainly based on primary historical sources. Also the prediction/criticism section reflects mainstream science and therefore is NPOV according to Wikipedia policies. --D.H 09:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

 * No objection was made, so I removed the POV tag. --D.H 17:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Including the Mainstream - The Silent Majority
I think the recent edits of D.H are pretty good, but I think the article is still lacking any coherent and comprehensive presentation of the mainstream view. What I mean is this: The article contains a lot of non-mainstream assertions along with the associated non-mainstream reasoning... and then it says "Mainstream science disagrees", or "Mainstream scientists don't take this seriously", or words to that effect. The problem is, the article rarely gives the mainstream REASONS for disagreeing or for not taking something seriously. Newton laughs at it, Herschel says it's grotesque, Euler says it's repugnant, Darwin says no man of science agrees with it, Poincare speaks disdainfully of it, Feynman says it doesn't work, and so on... yet the article rarely explains WHY all these scientists held these views. The difficulty here (in Wikipedia) is that the mainstream scientists regard Le Sage as SO self-evidently wrong and childish, that it would be a waste of time to publish anything about it. So almost the only things that have been published about it are things written by people to whom the foolishness of the theory is not self-evident. Hence we never get the mainstream side of the story. At most, we get a handful of popular expository articles that just cite Le Sage as an example of a theory that doesn't work, but never really explaining in scientific detail WHY it doesn't work. The same is true for other discredited theories, such as the theory that gravity is due to all material bodies expanding at an accelerating rate, causing the distances between them to shrink. Now, this is an absurd theory, but the only things published on it are in favor of it, because no serious person would stoop to address it. Le Sage is not quite in that same category, but it's close. So, to try to address this problem in the article, I made some additions to the Energy Absorption section, under Criticisms and Predictions. This isn't chisled in stone, but it indicates the KIND of explanation of the mainstream view that I think is needed in the article.SJC1 23:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think, that the article "rarely gives the mainstream REASONS for disagreeing". In fact, every reason for the overthrow of the theory (thermodynamic, drag, aberration, shielding, infinite energy etc.) ís discussed in detail. And the same arguments against the theory are valid today. BTW: The only "official" discussion between Le Sage gravity proponants and mainstream physisists are the newsgroup discussions of Steve Carlip with Stowe/Mingst or Van Flandern - but newsgroup postings are hardly a reputable source of information....

 * Maybe the Maxwell section was a little bit unclear, so I added a sentence refering to the handling of the thermodynamic problem in the Poincare section. Also I included a citation of Aronson in the Absorbed Energy section and left your corrections regarding "conversion from hot to cold" unchanged - but I removed the passage of the unexplained absorption capability of the ultramandane corpuscles. The problematic of cohesive forces and the nature of particles is already mentioned in the Bois-Reymond section. Every step beyond that would lead us to some sort of original research, which isn't allowed in Wikipedia (for some very good reasons). --D.H 18:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Du Bois-Reymond Cone-Proof?
I question the value of describing the "du Bois-Reymond cone-proof" in so much detail, because all he is saying is that, according to Le Sage theory, there is gravitational saturation, so it doesn't maintain mass proportionality for masses greater than a certain size. The "cone proof" is just a convoluted and obscure way of saying the same thing. It could be summarized in just a sentence, saying that du Bois cited saturation as an objection to the theory. (Of course, since saturation can be made as small as we like, this isn't really a very strong objection, except that it highlights the lack of falsifiability of Le Sage theory, since it has enough free variables to nullify every prediction.) Much more important is du Bois's comment that even if Le Sage theory was empirically viable, it would not accomplish its intent, which is to eliminate elementary attractive forces at a distance.

So, my suggestion is to delete the image and most of the description of the "cone proof", and just note that du Bois cited saturation and the lack of strict mass proportionality as objections to the theory. Then expand on his comments on the failure of Le Sage gravity to eliminate elementary attractive forces at a distance.SJC1 16:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

 * There seems to be some misunderstandings. Bois's argument has nothing to do with saturation or shielding. It is only based on the finite strength of the ultramundane flux, which means that mass proportionality is nicht strictly fulfilled in Le Sage's theory, independent (!) from the question, whether there is some shielding or not (The shielding effect must be computed additionally). --D.H 10:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * No, they are not independent, they are the same thing. In Le Sage theory the force of gravity is essentially equal to the product of the flux intensity and the surface area per gram of mass. To achieve approximate mass proportionality, we need to minimize saturation and shielding, which means we need to make the surface area per gram of mass extremely small, which means the flux intensity must be extremely great. To completely eliminate saturation and internal shielding, it would be necessary to have ZERO surface area per gram, and therefore infinite intensity of flux. But this is not possible. (The force of gravity would then be infinity times zero.) So du Bois was NOT saying anything new. He was simply objecting to the saturation limit implicit in Le Sage theory, expressing it in a different way.

 * This highlights one of the problems with the existing article: It has section headers like "Later Developments", implying that there have been "developments" in Fatio-Le Sage theory. That isn't accurate. Nothing new has been said about Fatio-Le Sage theory since about 1694. All that has happened since then is that new people have come along to repeat the same things, over and over. The way the article is presently written, it could easily mislead the reader into thinking this is some kind of "active" field of research, when in fact there has been nothing new in over 300 years (and it was anachronitic already in the 1690s!)SJC1 20:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"If it is a dream..."
The claim that Lichenberg "supported Le Sage's idea for a long time" is substantiated only by the quotation that begins "If it is a dream, ...". This, in itself, does not really indicate support of a scientific theory, to call it a dream. It should also be noted that this somewhat anachronistic form of "if" expression in English has the meaning "Although it is a dream..." So, I suggest providing some actual reference for the claim that Lichenberg supported Le Sage for a long time. Also, the aspect of Kant's philosophy that compelled him to change his mind, and his final mature considered opinion of Le Sage's theory should be presented.SJC1 07:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I will provide more information. PS: Thanks for the info regarding the word "if". I replaced it with "in case". --D.H 09:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The replacement of "if" with "in case" doesn't really address the point. Here's a sentence from one of Fatio's friends for you to parse: "If I have seen further than others, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants". This is a semantical device, considered slightly affectatious, whereby someone explains something without having to actually assert it. It is NOT exactly a conditional if/then statement, as in "IN CASE I have seen further than others, THEN I stood on the shoulders of giants." No, he is saying "Far be it from me to ever claim that I have seen further than others (I am much too modest)... but if I have, it's because I stood on the shoulders of giants."  Of course, shorn of the nuanced syntax, his real message is "I have seen further than others because I stood on the shoulders of giants". The "if" is just for being nice. I don't think this kind of "if" formulation is confined to English, because when I read what Lichtenberg said, it strikes me that he was speaking in the same sense. Ultimately the sentence must be placed in context. Trying to do history by isolated "sound bites" is risky... and susceptible to manipulation and distortion.SJC1 00:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Your edits concerning Lichtenberg are not correct. I know the meaning of Lichtenberg's german statement very well, but maybe the way of my description was unclear. The word "although" (which you used) is inappropriate - Lichtenberg made his statement in a time, when he supported Le Sage's model - not afterwards, as your edits suggested. So I tried to make a better one:

In 1790 he expressed his enthusiasm for the theory, because Le Sage's theory embraces all of our knowledge und makes any further dreaming useless. But should Le Sage's theory have been only a dream "it is the greatest and the most magnificent which was ever dreamed". --D.H 14:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It still sounds fishy to me. Instead of paraphrasing him, could you provide the entire quote in context, and cite the reference?SJC1 20:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Fatio and Le Sage
First of all, I created a Wikisource page, where I placed Plarfair's Notice de la Vie et des Ecrits de George Louis Le Sage (in English).

I think SJC1's recent edits do not provide an accurate historical description.

 * 1) It isn't necessary, to comment on every single statement Le Sage's, that Fatio hat the same idea before. So I inserted one passage, which present Zehe's statement on this issue. I wrote: Le Sage discussed the theory very detailed, but by comparing it with Fatio's theory, Zehe judged that Le Sage actually contributed nothing essentially new and, although Le Sage was in possession of Fatio's papers, he often didn't reach Fatio's level.
 * 2) It's not true, that "in none of Le Sage's published works did he acknowledge any of his predecessors". He did in the 1756 paper and in the 1818 paper (published by Prevost). Sometimes he says, Fatio's theory is "perfectly similar" to his own, that he said it is "ill-assured". Therefore I've created an extra section for "Fatio and Le Sage" - including the citations of the letter to Lambert, and his comment in Lucrece Newtonien. The section shows, how contradicting Le Sage's statements were. I think that's sufficient.

PS: In my POV, the reasons of Le Sage's peculiar statements are founded in his mental and physical constitution. We know, that Le Sage had an accident, which left him almost blind. Also his catastrophic memory must be considered as well. But my POV doesn't belong in the article. --D.H 17:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

 * For aspects of the theory that have already been described by Fatio, there really is no need to repeat them at all in the Le Sage section. I agree it is tedious to have a long list of statements, each prefaced with the words "Like Fatio, Le Sage said...", but the proper way to fix this tedium is to simply delete the statements. Once we have said that Le Sage's theory is essentially identical to Fatio's, what else needs to be said? Fatio's theory has already been described in detail in the previous section.

 * You are counting Prevosts 1818 publication as one of Le Sage's "four" published works, and this is certainly justifiable for technical content, but since it was prepared for publication by Prevost many years after Le Sage's death, it is obviously not valid testimony of Le Sage's willingness to credit Fatio in his published works. Furthermore, the "crediting" that Fatio receives in Prevost's publication is actually more of an denigration than a credit. It was on the basis of Prevost's account that all subsequent researchers who relied on him believed that Fatio "had really not explained gravity at all", and that Le Sage was very generous to even mention him. But this is all irrelevant, because, as I said, this was Prevost's publication. Of the remaining three "publications", only two actually have the status of real publications, and in neither of those did Le Sage credit his predecessors. So, I think D.H is padding and slanting the history to suit his tastes.

 * Furthermore, Le Sage's most polished mature presentation, Newtonian Lucretius, does not simply omit mention of his predecessors, it contains a long section in which Le Sage arrogantly berates all previous thinkers for failing to discover "his" theory, which is so simple that HE was able to discover it as a mere child. I think this material is very appropriate for inclusion in this article, as it gives the fullest direct account of what Le Sage claimed regarding his own accomplishment and that of his (unnamed) predecessors. Deleting this primary material from Le Sage's most famous work (as D.H has done) is motivated only by the fact that it doesn't support a particular POV. I think the material should be re-instated, to give an accurate historical account of Le Sage.

 * As to the actual reasons for why Le Sage wrote what he did in Lucretius, and whether it was a result of blindness or a bad memory, or a preference to believe that he had accomplished something with his life, we obviously aren't in a position to know. All we can do is accurately report what he published. On that basis, by today's standards, the readers can conclude for themselves that Le Sage clearly was either mentally impaired or else he was knowingly claiming undue credit to himself (or perhaps both).SJC1 18:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The current list of references to the article lists only two publications of Le Sage on this theory, so I'm removed the comments about his FOUR published papers until those are cited.SJC1 07:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I thought the phrase "vague and ill-assured fashion" would be sufficient. But if you want to insert more specific material from Lucrece Newtonien, no problem. BTW: Is the Smithsonian-Lucretius-paper public domain? Than I could place Abbot's translation as a Wikisource page - what about that?
 * Also the letter to "Mercure de France" is a publication and must be mentioned. And regarding the Physique Mechanique publication: Well, it wasn't published by Le Sage himself. But also the Lucrece-paper wasn't published by Le Sage, but was read by Prevost in Berlin. So at the end, both papers carry the fingerprints of Prevost. The only papers "published" by Le Sage himself were his various letters and his "Essai" (but which was only in possession of a handful people.)
 * Regarding POV: My edits are mostly based on primary sources, which is the best way to avoid POV. --D.H 09:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

My apparent quibbling about what qualifies as a "publication" is due to the fact that there seems to be a double standard applied to Le Sage and Fatio. The article asserts flatly that Fatio never published anything on the subject, and this is sometimes offered as justification for not crediting him, and yet Fatio actually presented papers to the Royal Society, and circulated drafts, and got prominent fellow scientists to sign them, wrote letters, and even submitted a description of his theory to a Prize contest in Paris (similar to Le Sage's prize entry)... yet none of this counts as publication or "communicating his ideas". Well, okay... but when we then consider Le Sage, is it correct to credit him with essays, letters that circulated among a small number of people, and with contest prize entries, and with things that were actually published by others, especially many years after his death? In my opinion, Fatio and Le Sage were not much different in how much they, themselves, actually "published" in a formal sense. Le Sage was more fortunate to have a friend (Prevost) interested in promoting his ideas, and also in living at a time when formal modern ideas about "publication" were becoming more prevalent.SJC1 20:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't see a "double standard". In fact, none of the Fatio-material in the article was published in his lifetime, but was published long after his death by Bopp and Gagnebin. Also the Fatio-reception section is only based on letters, which were'n published for a long thim. So under those circumstances, it would be unfair not to include Le Sage's material like the "Phyisque Mechanique" or some of his letters. Of course it's true: The main difference between Fatio and Le Sage was not the number of published works, but the existence of friends like Prevost, Deluc etc., who presented Le Sage's theory in their papers. But none of Fatio's "friends" like Huygens, Bernoulli etc. did something like that. --D.H 13:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. As I said initially, it's perfectly appropriate to cite posthumous works and letters and anything else for technical information as to their theories. But the question at hand is the proper crediting of the person who originated the theory, and the avoidance of giving posterity a false impression of whose theory it was. For this purpose, we can place very little weight on posthumously published works assembled and edited by other people. We are interested in what the person officially claimed, for the record. And for this we must rely most heavily on any formal publications... which for Le Sage limits us to just two (at most!) documents, namely, the prize essay and Lucretius, in neither of which he credited anyone else, and in fact strongly claimed that he was the first to successfully grasp the theory. On the other hand, the double-standard arises when people say that Le Sage deserves to be credited with the theory, even though he wasn't the first to think of it, because he published it whereas Fatio did not. This is where I see some double standard, because Fatio promoted and publicized his idea as energetically as Le Sage did, and both submitted prize contest entries, and so on.SJC1 20:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Totally Inelastic?
I think there's a problem with the paragraph describing Le Sage's basic concept. It says he postulated totally inelastic colisions, but then it says he talked about reducing the speed of the corpuscles by 2/3. Well, if the colisions are totally inelastic, the speed (relative to the ordinary matter) is reduced to zero, by definition. So the corpuscles just stick to the bars, perhaps slipping off later. The thing about reducing speed by 2/3 must be based on some assumed elasticity. The thing about angles of incidence really doesn't make sense either. This is presumably when Maxwell meant when he said Le Sage's theory of impact was faulty.SJC1 22:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

One other point: The article tries to excuse Le Sage for not realizing that Fatio's theory involved inelastic interactions by saying the section of Fatio's paper where this is explained is difficult to understand. That's not a valid argument, because throughout Fatio's description, in all the sections, he states explicitly several times that the force of gravity is due to the particles having less speed going away than they had when approaching. There is simply no plausible way for any sentient being to "miss" this. You don't have to slog through a difficult sections of his paper, he states it right up front, in just so many words. So, I think the attempted excuse about the difficult sections should be removed from the article.SJC1 22:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Regarding elasticity: The same argument (including absolute hardness, inelasticaty) was made by Isenkrahe - and he derived the same value as Le Sage. The explanation was as follows: Suppose a straight line, and many particles travelling relativ to that line. The particle-velocity after the impact of two particles is zero only in the case, that both particles are travelling on the same straight line and therefore after the impact their kinetic energy if fully destroyed. But if only one particle is travelling on that line, and the other particle is coming from another angle, only the velocity component in the direction of that line is destroyed in the second particle, but the other component remains. Under those assumptions Isenkrahe calculated the resultant mean velocity, and like Le Sage, he came to the conclusion, that the mean velocity of the particles after the collision is 2/3. --D.H 14:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * That doesn't make sense. According to Le Sage theory, the ultramundane corpuscles are moving so much faster than the greatest speed of motion of ordinary matter that drag is negligible. In other words, from the standpoint of the ultramundane particles, the particles of ordinary matter at all essentially stationary. Now, if Le Sage (and Isenkrahe) want(s) to claim that the particles of ordinary matter are spherical (for example), and the ultramundane particles lose all their motion in the direction normal to the surface of the ordinary matter particle, but none of their motion is lost in the tangential direction, then this should be stated. This isn't really describing perfectly inelastic collisions, it is describing a more complicated kind of scattering interaction. But from what you said, this is not what they had in mind, because you talked about both particles moving in various directions prior to contact, and that is simply not relevant to Le Sage theory. As far as interactions are concerns, the ordinary matter is essentially a stationary target for the incoming corpuscles.SJC1 21:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * A follow-up on this point: A 2/3 factor is easily seen to come from assuming spherical particles of ordinary matter, and assuming the collisions are totally inelastic normal to the surface, and totally elastic tangential to the surface. But three points need to be made about this. First, it is not what you described, regarding the lines of motion of the particles. Second, as Darwin showed, Le Sage's theory does NOT give an inverse square law if you assume the normal elasticity is different from the tangential elasticity. Third, the 2/3 factor applies only to the ultramundane corpuscles that make contact with ordinary matter, which is a negligibly small fraction of all the ultramundane corpuscles, so the whole thing is irrelevant anyway. So, unless we want to present this "2/3 business" as an example of the senseless and misguided thought processes of Le Sage and his adherents, I think it should just be charitably deleted.SJC1 02:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Your description is correct. Isenkrahe first used the example with the "straight line" only ot show the difference between the various forms of collision. Then in the next chapter he calculated the effect of the collision of the gravific particles on a stationary body and he derived the 2/3 factor. Isenkrahe also noted that under this suppositions the inverse square law is only valid on greater distances.

BTW: Le Sage derived the 2/3 factor as well, but he never clearly pointed out why -- maybe the issue should be discussed in the Isenkrahe section, not in the Le Sage section. --D.H 14:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Scholared Associates?
The article says Le Sage's ideas attracted little support, except for his "scholared associated Prevost, Bonnet, Deluc and L'Huilier". The word would be scholarly instead of scholared, except that I don't think this is a good characterization. Previously the article called them "close associates", which was better. Basically, Prevost and L'Huilier were Le Sage's students, and Bonnet was his best friend, and Deluc was a Swiss geologist and meteorologist. All four were either very close associates/students/friends, with the possible exception of Deluc (I don't know if he was personally friends with Le Sage or not), but Deluc wasn't a physicist anyway, so the word "scholarly" is misleading anyway. I think it was more accurate the way it was written previously, i.e., his close associates, or maybe identify them as "his students Prevost and L'Huilier, his close friend Bonnet, and the Swiss geologist Deluc". The point is, list his next-door neighbor and his barber and his brother-in-law as scholarly supporters of his theory is kind of silly and POV slanting on the basic fact that his theory essentially attracted no supporters. Sure, a couple of his students and his best friend wrote favorably about it, but that's just silly and POV to list those people without acknowledging how closely they were related to Le Sage (if they are going to be mentioned at all).SJC1 06:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok, I've changed the text, but: To bring scholarly people like Prevost, Bonnet, Deluc and L'Huilier in connection to "barbers", "brothers-in-law" etc. is the only thing, which is "silly and POV". So I please you to tone down your comments. --D.H 16:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

em-waves
I was able to find some historical material on the connection between Le Sage gravity and electromagnetic waves.
 * 1) The secondary re-radiation mechanism was first developed by Thomson in 1904 in his paper Electricity and Matter. The "matter" article in 1911 was only a renewed version of his 1904-paper. Therefore Poincare was only repeating Thomson's re-radiation argument. So I moved the Thomsons section into the Lorentz-section and finshed the section with as small Tommasina/Brush passage.
 * 2) Poincare published his criticism on Lesage for the first time in 1908 in his paper La dynamique de l'électron, Revue générale des sciences pures et appliquées 19, pp. 386-402. That paper was reprinted in the same year in Science and Methode.
 * 3) Aronson wrote : "Poincare notes without comment that as late as 1900 the eminent physicist Lorentz was still working on Tommasina's wave formulation of the theory of gravitation." That's wrong. It was Lorentz, who first introduced such a mechanism in 1900 - in that paper Tommasina's name isn't mentioned. But Tommasina published his first explanation of gravitation in 1903 - Tommasina also said in one of his papers, that his theory is "competely different" from that of Loretnz, because Tommasina also introduced long-wavelength radition. But because Poincare first mentioned Tommasina and after him Lorentz, Aronson obviously believed, that Poincare's description was in a historical order. So based on those primary sources I've changed the order of the theories.
 * 4) I've included a link to Maxwell's "Atom" from Encyclopædia Britannica, 9th edition and created a wikisource-version of Thomson's article "Matter" from Encyclopædia Britannica, 11th edition. --D.H 17:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Shielding
I've shortened the shielding passage and re-inserted the passage in the article on gravitational shielding. --D.H 11:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Some edits
I wrote some passages about P.G. Tait, Hendrik Lorentz and Richard Feynman and included links to

Le Sage: Deux traités de physique mécanique

Tait: Lectures on some recent advances in physical science with a special lecture on force

Lorentz: Lectures On Theoretical Physics (pp. 151-155)

Arp: Le Sage gravity

Mathpages: Kinetic Pressure and Tetrode’s Star

Auffray: Preston on E=mc² and Dual origin of E=mc²

--D.H 10:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

F.A.E.
What's F.A.E. stand for? Denis tarasov 18:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't know. See their paper (online available): --D.H 09:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Fatio and Le Sage, II
I'm now in possesion of Prevost's Biography on Le Sage, which includes many details on the relation Fatio and Le Sage. So, to make this article more readable, I deleted the "Fatio and Le Sage" section from this article and wrote a more detailed account in the article on Georges-Louis Le Sage. --D.H 18:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Lomonosov ??
Since every other person who ever uttered a word about this theory has been included in the article, it seems we should include a few words on Losomonov, or whatever his name was. I think he described the theory in a letter to Euler.SJC1 04:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, it was Mikhail Lomonosov, but I wasn't able to find out what exactly he said on this topic. --D.H 14:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi. I found a paper of Lomonosov in Englisch. See . It's interesting that Lomonosov's theory ist not a Le Sage type model, so I've included a description of Lomonosov's theory in the article mechanical explanations of gravitation and not in Le Sage's theory of gravitation. --D.H 21:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Feynman on Models versus Math
I don't think the concluding quote in the Feynman paragraph (beginning with "Well, you say, it was a good one...") is relevant to this article, for the following reasons: At this point he has concluded his discussion of Le Sage theory (which was just an example), and has gone back to talking very generally about all possible kinds of physics theories, not just Le Sage or even mechanical, but all kinds of physics theories, and he is trying to make a point that no one has ever been able to reduce the inverse-square action-at-a-distance law to primitive and simple local operations. Well, that statement is flatly false, as he knew fell well. General relativity eliminates action-at-a-distance, and everything is the result of local primitive actions. And Feynman's claim is muddled, becuase he also talks about "making the math simpler", whereas the math of Le Sage theory is not simpler than Newton's simple inverse square law. Actually, the math of Le Sage is much MORE complicated, in the aggregate, than Newton's simple instantaneous inverse-square law, and leads to endless complications and difficulties. Now, you may say that Feynman meant that Le Sage was simpler on the microscopic primitive level, where each particle is moving by simple laws locally along its path, and doesn't have to know what is happenning far away... well, that's fine, but by that criteria any field theory is even simpler. General relativity is conceptually extremely simple, and the primitive local operations are trivial, much simpler than (for example) Le Sage collisions. And general relativity has the added advantage of actually being a successful theory, conceptually coherent, and consistent with observation. So this statement of Feynman's doesn't really make sense, but more importantly it's not relevant to the subject of this article. He was talking in the context of a larger discussion about the relation between mathematics and modeling, and the quoted statement, taken out of context, is inconsistent with many things that Feynman said in other places (about the simplicity and logical economy of general relativity, for example), so if this oddball statement is going to be included, it must be acompanied with more context...and it's just not worth the effort. He was just explaining to the audience why nature seems to be mathematical, and no one has ever been able to give a good theory that didn't involve math. But Le Sage theory is not less math-intensive than any other approach. In fact, as you know, Le Sage himself said the math was terrifying, and this is one of the reasons he gave for why no one before himself had been able to handle it. So it just seems dumb and pointless to include the quote from Feynman. In the context of the book (Character of Physical Law) you can understand his point, but in the context of a discussion of LeSage theory it doesn't make much sense. So I think it should either be deleted (preferred) or else I'll need to add a lot more context to accurately convey what he meant... which is just going to be totally off topic.

 * I agree with your edits. And I don't think it (the reference to mathematics) is going out of topic - many of the "non-mainstream" authors think that a Le Sage type theoy is very simple to create. However, Feynman and others showed that it isn't so. Also the intro looks good to me now. Thanks. --D.H 07:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Major edits
Now, after some months I think that the greatest parts of my edits are over. The historical and thematic parts are fully discussed in the article. (There are only a few changes in the Le Sage and Tommasina section to made....if I can grasp some primary sources). Here is a list of my recent edits:
 * 1) Minor corrections in the Fatio and Le Sage sections.
 * 2) Including a description of the wave theory of Keller in the Keller, Leray, Boisbaudran section.
 * 3) Creation of a new Isenkrahe, Rysanek, Du Bois-Reymond section.
 * 4) Expanding the Lorentz section.
 * 5) Shortening the Poincare/Thomson section.
 * 6) Some edits in the Porosity of Matter section (Including a comment to the electrical constitution of matter).
 * 7) Rename and rewrite the mass accretion section into Absorbed Energy.
 * 8) Inserting some links to: Keller, Picart, Du Bois-Reymond, Farr (all primary) and to a new mathpages article (secondary). --D.H 21:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

// I have no sources, but I think that the "Main Theory" paragraph talking about elastic collisions (and the gravitic particles 'necessarily' having not-completely-elastic collisions) is fundamentally flawed. All elastic collisions impart net momentum: The object is technically decelerated to zero velocity, then accelerated to -V velocity, so that 2*M*V momentum is imparted to the thing that was hit. I don't want to change the main article without resources, but can someone with more physics under their belt confirm that elastic collisions with a net direction (the other side of object A being shadowed) impart net force? Clarion2050 20:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[User:clarion2050|clarion2050]]16:18:00, 21 June 2007

Herapath and Waterston
Not an easy to read article this one so forgive me if I have missed something. There is no mention that the theory motivated both John James Waterston and John Herapath in their development of the kinetic theory of gases. Cutler 12:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * There are many "kinetic theories of gravity" - Le Sage's theory of gravitation is only one of them (see also some other, non-Le-Sage-type-theories in the article mechanical explanations of gravitation). Maybe there is some misunderstanding - for example in this article we find:
 * "Herapath was initially interested in developing an explanation of gravity in terms of the impacts of particles of an ethereal fluid, somewhat along the lines of the 'kinetic theory of gravity' proposed by G. S. LeSage and many others."

 * "Along the lines" doesn't mean (in my POV) that Herapath and Waterston were directly influenced by Le Sage. As far as I know Le Sage, Herapath and Waterston developed different mechanical gravity models which where important to create their own versions of the kinetic theory of gases. BTW: Herapath's model is not an Le Sage type model at all: He proposed the aether is heated up next to the bodies - that's the exact opposite as it is proposed by Le Sage. Also there are a lot of papers by John Herapath in the Annals of Philosophy which are online availabe (see the Herapath article or search Google-Books for more articles) - in none of those papers the name Le Sage is mentioned. Also according to the description of Taylor in the Smithsonian report I see no Connection between the theory of Le Sage and John James Waterston, except the fact that they are all mechanical explanations of gravitation. Or do you have other sources? --D.H 16:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Good answer! I am happy. Cutler 07:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Solution
All problems of this theory can be avoided if we assume that Inertial mass of the gravitational corpuscles not equal to its gravitational mass, because of equivalence principle is not applicable in this case (gravitational particles don't collide with each other, hence don't have gravitational mass). IMHO Denis tarasov 17:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

GA fail
I hate to fail this article because so many parts of it are so carefully worded and so well thought out. However, overall, I do not think that the article meets the GA criteria.

General comments
 * The lead is not yet a summary of the article per WP:LEAD; I would suggest adding more detail on the theory itself. If readers look only at the lead, something we have to consider, especially if they are following wikilinks, what will they learn?

 * Despite the lower threshold for citations in scientific articles, this article does not meet WP:V as outlined in Scientific citation guidelines. Major sections of the article are uncited.

 * While the writing in the article is generally of high quality, I think that the article could do with a copy edit from a scientifically-educated reader. I tried to fix some sentences as I was reading, but felt hampered by my lack of knowledge.

 * The information about the various Fatio editions belongs in footnotes; it distracts readers from the historical narrative and the scientific information. I think it is more academic than encyclopedic.

 * The "Recent activity" section seems to get short shrift compared to the other sections. I would suggest expanding that section while trying to cut back on some of the other sections.

 * I think it would be fine to trim down some of the other sections, but expanding the "Recent Activity" section would likely lead to trouble. The only proponents of Le Sage theory today are physics cranks (of the Roy C Keys variety), so any expansion of the "Recent Activity" section would have to be an account of modern physics cranks. I think it would be best to place such a discussion in a separate article on pseudo-science or fringe-science, maybe with a link from this page. SJC1 (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Can you put the page numbers in the footnotes? This combination of Harvard and inline citation styles is confusing.

Some specific comments
 * The theory posits that the force of gravity is the result of tiny particles (corpuscles) or waves moving at high speed in all directions - Particle/wave duality sounds oddly modern - what version of the theory is this?

 * From the things outlined so far, there arises only a force which is proportional to the surface of the bodies. - "things" is a vague word

 * Nicolas Fatio presented the first formulation of his thoughts on gravitation in a letter to Christiaan Huygens in spring 1690.[1] Two days later he read the content of the letter before the Royal Society in London. - Who is the "he" in the second sentence?

 * Fatio pointed out, that by continuing to increase both the velocity and the elasticity of the particles this condensation can get arbitrarily small. - "can get" is vague diction

 * In order to ensure mass proportionality, Fatio assumed that gross matter is extremely permeable for the gravific fluid. - Why is gravity a fluid now?

 * In this chapter Fatio examines the connections between the term "infinity" and its relations to his theory. - Suddenly, the problems are represented as being parts of different "chapters". This is a bit jarring.

 * For example the diameter of the staffs is infinitely smaller than their distance to each other - What are "staffs"?

 * Nevertheless, Fatio's theory remained largely unknown with a few exceptions like Cramer and Le Sage, because he never was able to formally publish his works and he fell under the influence of a group of religious fanatics called the "French prophets" (which belonged to the camisards) and therefore his public reputation was ruined. - More could be said here - intriguing story.

 * In 1731 the Swiss mathematician Gabriel Cramer published a dissertation,[6] at the end of which appeared a sketch of a theory perfectly similar to Fatio's (including net structure of matter, analogy to light, shading...), but without mentioning Fatio's name. - Ellipses instead of words are discouraged - tell readers what you want them to know.

 * Le Sage argued, that in case the matter-particle-collisions are perfectly elastic, no gravitational force would arise. - Something is off about the punctuation or grammar here.

 * Le Sage’s ideas were not well-received during his day, except for some of his friends and associates like Pierre Prévost, Charles Bonnet, Jean-André Deluc and Simon Lhuilier. - Explain who these people are with identifying tags - this is the case throughout the article.

 * He proposed that the excess heat might be absorbed by internal energy modes of the particles themselves, analogous to his proposal of the vortex-nature of matter. - I don't understand the analogy.

 * Feynman bit seems historically irrelevant - was it just a teaching tool?

 * Yes, Feynman just used it as an example. It wasn't really the subject of his discussion. So I'm inclined to agree that the Feynman section could be omitted from the article. Or perhaps it could be added to the "recent activity" section, noting that Le Sage theory has been used by Feynman as an illustrative example of a failed theory in his lectures. SJC1 (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd also say the Hilbert section could be removed. There's no need to give a section to every famous person who ever made a passing reference to the subject. The article by Cory makes it clear that Hilbert didn't have anything new to say on the subject, and just made an off-hand comment on it. Also, his comment was specifically about the wave version, so if anything, it should be moved up and made part of the Lorentz section. But really Hilbert didn't add anything. If someone wants to mention the Madelung idea, that could be cited separately, but he arrived at an alternately attractive and repulsive force at varying distances between molecules, which doesn't really seem to have much to do with Le Sage's concept of gravity. I suggest removing the Hilbert section altogether. SJC1 (talk) 19:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Regarding Isenkrahe's proposal on the connection between density, temperature and weight: Since his reasoning was based purely on the anticipated effects of changes in material density, and since temperature at a given density can be increased or decreased, Isenkrahe's comments do not imply any fundamental relation between temperature and gravitation. - Full sentences, please.

I hope this review was helpful. Please feel free to ask questions about it on my talk page. Awadewit | talk  03:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

 * There seems to be different standards in German and English Wikipedia. In German, the same article is a featured one. But no problem, perhaps I will make some changes in the near future. And thank your very much for your efforts. --D.H 08:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't know much about the German wikipedia, but I have heard that articles that are translated into English often need more sourcing before they can reach GA and FA on the English wikipedia. If you feel this review was in error, you can always appeal it at GA review. You might also think about asking for a scientific peer review. Readers there will more likely be able to offer you informed advice. I'll see if I can scrounge up anyone as well. Awadewit | talk  08:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The Lead
Awadewit suggested that the lead paragraph of the article could be improved, by saying more about the actual theory, to give a more representative overview of the subject. I agree with that suggestion, because the current lead barely discusses the theory, and spends much time on bibleographic issues. I propose modifying the lead to read somewhat as follows:

 * Le Sage's theory of gravitation is the most common name for the kinetic theory of gravity originally proposed by Nicolas Fatio de Duillier in 1690 and later by Georges-Louis Le Sage in 1748. The theory proposed a mechanical explanation for Newton's gravitational force in terms of streams of tiny unseen particles (which Le Sage called ultra-mundane corpuscles) impacting on all material objects from all directions. According to this model, any two material bodies partially shield each other from the impinging corpuscles, resulting in a net imbalance in the pressure exerted by the impacting corpuscles on the bodies, tending to drive the bodies together. This mechanical explanation for gravity never gained widespread acceptance, although it was ocassionally studied by physicists until the beginning of the twentieth century, by which time it was generally considered to be conclusively discredited.

It might also be good to mention that the theory is usually regarded as an attempt to reconcile Newtonian gravity with the mechanistic philosophy of Descartes, but I'm not sure how to word that.SJC1 (talk) 03:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Your proposal sounds good. As you recommended, I put the Feynman passage into the recent activity section, including the phrase that Feynman used it as an example of a failed theory. And I put a shortened version of the Hilbert passage into the Lorentz section and the Isenkrahe, Rysanek, Reymond passages are shortened as well. --D.H (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

1908 Poincare Reference
I've tried unsuccessfully to find the English translation of the 1908 Poincare article (The Dynamics of the Electron) mentioned in Reference 42. (This is where Poincare uses George Darwin's result, and argues against the Le Sage hypothesis.) It's supposed to be in the 2003 Dover edition of his "Science and Method," but Dover tells me that that edition is simply an unabridged reprint of the 1914 version of the book, translated by Francis Maitland, and doesn't contain that translation from the French. I haven't seen the 2003 edition of the book myself, but a careful browsing through earlier versions didn't seem to have the article. Can anyone enlighten me on this? And, if anyone DOES have an English translation of the article, I'd like a photocopy! hkyriazi (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Poincaré's article La dynamique de l'électron is of course reprinted in Science and Method, see for example the French original of the book, online available at Science et Methode. See. Livre III: La mecanique nouvelle. Lesage's theory is discussed in Chapitre III, section III:La theorie de Lesage. For an english discussion of that chapter, see: Historical Assessments of the Fatio-Lesage Theory. --D.H (talk) 08:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, D.H. Not sure how I missed it. hkyriazi (talk) 20:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No Condensation?
I'm very interested in this question of how Fatio addressed Huygen's criticism, which he said occupied his mind for three years. I think it needs to be made clearer that some degree of condensation must occur, as, by definition, when the incoming particles "are spaced fruther [sic] apart than are the reflected corpuscles", the corpuscles ARE more concentrated around the material body. I don't have an English translation of his writings, and so I'm not sure how he stated this, but it seems that the only solution would be a dynamic equilibrium, where the density built up to a point where the outward rate of diffusion equaled the inflow rate. Having said that, we can always go far enough away from the material body so that there actually IS a build-up of corpuscle number going on. Since the corpuscles are assumed to come from an infinite distance, there will always be some distance at which the built-up concentration hasn't yet had time to diffuse away to. One can see why he struggled with this problem, and with the notion of infinity. And, of course, we also would have to address the problem of how that build-up of corpuscles doesn't itself slow the incoming corpuscles, resulting in a negation of gravity. I think Le Sage also worried about this, but I'm not sure what he concluded either. hkyriazi (talk) 20:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Role of Planck units?
Were Planck units ever discussed in context with Le-Sage model? E.g. ubiquitous particles containing four Planck charges arranged as a square with the area of 1 Planck lenghth^2 (=hG/c^3). Or cubes with 8 Planck charges at its corners and an edge-length of 1 Planck length? Such objects may interact with matter in a way that they transmit impulses with a cross-section size of 1 Planck length^2. In case e.g. protons would provide a string with such a cross-section at its end the probability of impulse transmission would be very low (but not zero) and the resulting force on the string resp proton would be also very low even if Planck-impulses would be transmitted. To be born in mind: the squares/cubes as mentioned would be about 10^20 fold smaller than a proton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 10:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Original Research of Nigel Harris
In a recent series of edits, the editor NigelHarris has inserted material offering his unsourced commentary on the validity of Le Sage theory, and arguing that "Le Sage makes modern sense with light speed neutrinos changing flavour upon interaction with matter, becoming less interactive, at least temporarily." I contend that this is unsourced original research, and does not belong in the article.Flau98bert (talk) 16:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Yes, such statements need to be properly sourced. --D.H (talk) 16:21, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Background Radiation
I deleted the comment about zero point energy from the Background Radiation section because zero point energy is not any kind of "background radiation", and bears no resemblance to Le Sage's momentum flux streaming rectilinearly through space. In quantum field theory the whole notion of mechanistic entities that can be tracked through space like normal objects is discarded. I simply think it's too much of a stretch to credit Fatio or Le Sage for predicting quantum field theory. To my mind, this is a "novel historical narrative and interpretation" of the kind that does not belong in Wikipedia. I would need to see a reputable source stating that Le Sage theory predicted the zero point energy of quantum field theory.SJC1 23:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with your edits and only included some wikilinks (also the headline "background radiation" was doubled before). But I thought it would be worth mentioning, that indeed a "attracting force" like the casimir effect arises from some sort of push process in the vacuum. Of course, it's not exactly a Le Sage type shielding.... --D.H 09:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Everything SJC1 has written about "quantum field theory" above is plain wrong and shows he knows absolutely nothing about science, let alone physics! It's the kind of pseudoscience that Ed Witten states: he's thinking of non-relativistic quantum mechanics (single wavefunction nonsense), not quantum field theory is about quantum fields.  For a 1996 checked prediction of dark energy from quantum gravity (confirmed 2 years later), see, or else  Photocopier (talk) 19:09, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

External links trim
Anon <IP_ADDRESS> seems to have done a major trim of the external links section. Looks like a good idea, per our content guidelines wp:ELNO. Is one of the remaining entries (Mountainman) sufficiently notable? I.o.w. is it sufficiently mentioned elsewhere in the literature—main- or non-mainstream? If not, I suggest we remove it too and only keep the Arp link. - DVdm (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Apparently new user restored the link farm. Let's discuss here what belongs and what does not, keeping wp:ELNO in mind. - DVdm (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note — see also the closed discussion at User talk:DVdm. - DVdm (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * WOW you people really are amazingly petty ...rather than admit my links consistency with the category you wipe out the category. Science should not be afraid to even link to dissenting opinion or interpretations. DoNotGod (talk) 19:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * I think it's Wikipedia's guidelines and policies that you find petty. Feel free to try to change those—Wikipedia is yours. You can start at External links/Noticeboard. But first read about them by following the link in the welcome message on your talk page. One of the most important policies is the one about wp:consensus. - DVdm (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * You are not an authority whose research has been subject to any kind of peer review, Inmendham. Your link is not going up, period. You can make as many vulgar attack videos as you'd like on your YouTube channel, nothing's going to change. Insidiae (talk) 22:22, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * "peer review" show me where any of the other papers were peer reviewed. ..."Your link is not going up" you what to bet some hard money? ..."attack videos" the facts leave no Doubt regarding who started the attacks ...."nothing's going to change" accept your chtch-22 definitions of personal site. DoNotGod (talk) 03:37, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Insidiae, let's remember to focus on the content, not the contributor. How is stating "Your link is not going up, period" conducive to a productive conversation? I'm new here, but is this how editors usually communicate with contributors? DoNotGod has reasonable grounds to believe his link belongs in the "non-mainstream" links section, and to believe the near-total destruction of the preexisting external links was hastily done to justify the removal of his link from that (very appropriate) section. Snowwhiteunger (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Does anyone else notice the irony of Snowwhiteunger telling me to "focus on the content, not the contributor", when DoNotGod has made two videos attacking myself and other editors involved here, with some pretty vicious remarks that, if posted here, would get him an WP:NPA block faster than he could say "oops"? Sorry Mr. Meatpuppet, but I've got no reason to assume good faith at this point, espeically considering Inmendham's completely incompetent understanding of Wiki guidelines, which he plainly demonstrated in both of his videos. Now please, demonstrate how DoNotGod's page at all follows the guidelines regarding external links (i.e. how it does not qualify as a personal web page), or make a sound case as to why we should forgo those guidelines to include it. If you can't do either, then please go away and stop wasting everyone's time. Insidiae (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * "with some pretty vicious remarks" you mean real facts pointing out your obvious duplicity ..."considering Inmendham's completely incompetent understanding of Wiki guidelines" you still haven't quoted a relevant guideline violation all the other links didn't commit. ..."how it does not qualify as a personal web page" first it has nothing to do with me personally beyond me presenting the theory. Second, all the content is on the subject of kinetic push force (gravity). third, the content is no more or less "personal" than any of the other links in the category. What is your definition of a personal site, any site put up by a person? DoNotGod (talk) 03:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Please read WP:ELNO, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Like you have been advised. Repeatedly. Here, I'll even quote the relevant section from the former:

 * 11. Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority.

 * Are you a recognized authority, DoNotGod? The answer is no. Insidiae (talk) 07:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks for pointing out that "blogs, personal web pages, and most fansites" are, in fact, allowed in certain cases, which leaves the door open for content from contributors such as DoNotGod. What constitutes "personal web page" is debatable. Likewise, Wikipedia leaves the door open to discuss what is meant by "recognized authority". To suggest the door is slammed shut to discussion on either point would be inconsistent with Wikipedia's long standing policy of encouraging discussion. Snowwhiteunger (talk) 14:26, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Alright, fair enough. Let's hear your case. Why do you think article 11 of WP:ELNO doesn't apply to DoNotGod's page? Insidiae (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * The scope of justifying the link isn't strictly limited to article 11 of ELNO. Let's look at the ELNO preamble itself: "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject, one should generally avoid providing external links to: (19 articles follow, including article 11)." The four key words here would be "one should generally avoid" which necessarily means, not always avoid. According to External_links, sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources "yet still contain information about the subject of the article" should be considered for inclusion. And let's not forget the importance of the name of the External Link subcategory: "Non-Mainstream" links. DoNotGod's link is a suitable non-mainstream link. Snowwhiteunger (talk) 15:18, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Insidiae, above you ironically suggest the importance of following Wikipedia guidelines while simultaneously rejecting my suggestion to follow Wikipedia guidelines (to "focus on the content, not the contributor"). The content the contributor (DoNotGod) attempted to link to Wikipedia in the non-mainstream link section is meant to be discussed here, not content the contributor never attempted to link to Wikipedia at all. Your tone here strikes me as inconsistent with Wikipedia's standards of decorum. By attempting to contribute to the non-mainstream section with a link that contains information about the subject of the article, DoNotGod was following Wikipedia's policy of encouraging contributors to "please be bold". Snowwhiteunger (talk) 02:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Be bold, but don't then be surprised if you are reverted. If this happens don't re-revert but discuss, and try and address the concerns that got you reverted. Though not a formal policy this is the process many editors follow, as part of our consensus seeking process. There is even an essay for it: BOLD, revert, discuss cycle.

 * So again, the problem with the link is it is a personal web site, and so should be excluded according to WP:ELNO #11. As I noted below the default is not to include external links and probably most articles have none, and links should be kept to a minimum, which means there must be a good reason for including each one.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 02:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Note — Apparently another ip <IP_ADDRESS> from the same region has joined in, restoring the list. Suspecting wp:meatpuppets or wp:sockpuppets. - DVdm (talk) 19:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Reverted. Thanks to <IP_ADDRESS> for the initial cull. A lot of work to go through the links check them and make judgement calls on their suitability. The default is of course not to include them, and the normal number of external links in an article is zero. Long lists of links are hardly ever necessary, as WP is not a directory of links. Surveys of important products/viewpoints/theories should be done in the article where appropriate, not by listing them as external links.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 19:45, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

The initial cull wasn't necessary. I went through all of them prior to my first edit and found them entirely suitable as "non-mainstream" links, in that they all contained information about the subject of the article (DoNotGod's link included). At this rate, one wonders if the editors would just as soon see the entire article deleted before they'd deign to allow DoNotGod's link. I also think DVdm got this important discussion off to a poor start by stating: "To me personally it looks like utter nonsense, but to be polite I settled for fringe." That likely precipitated the meatpuppet accusation subsequently hurled directly at me, a new user here. For this reason I believe DVdm should make a special effort to reset the tone of this conversation. Snowwhiteunger (talk) 21:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. For someone who seems to have a problem understanding what a personal site or web page is, I will make a special effort to explain. Look carefully at wp:ELNO item 11:
 * 11. Blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority. (This exception for blogs, etc., controlled by recognized authorities is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities who are individuals always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people.)
 * Now you will notice that the string "personal web pages" is blue (or even underlined if a certain option is selected in your preferences). That means that there is an article behind the link. When you click the link, you will be taken to our article Personal web page, where you can read:
 * Personal web pages are World Wide Web web pages created by an individual to contain content of a personal nature rather than on behalf of a company, organization or institution. Personal web pages are primarily used for informative or entertainment purposes but can also be used for personal career marketing, social networking, or personal expression.
 * You also see that the string "recognized authority" has a link behind it. That one takes you to our policy meta-article wp:Verifiability, where in the subsection WP:SPS, you can read some more about the WIkipedia meaning of "recognized authority".
 * So, there you go, crystal clear. By the way, as you can see, the article about personal web pages is not in good shape and needs attention, so feel free to make it better. Wikipedia is yours. Hope this helps. - DVdm (talk) 07:16, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * I've looked at the links you provided, and nothing I've read suggests the door isn't open to discussing what is meant by "recognized authority"...to suggest otherwise would run counter to Wikipedia's long standing policy of encouraging discussion. Personal web pages are "largely not acceptable as sources", which necessarily means that certain web pages are, in fact, acceptable as sources. And indeed, according to External_links there's even limited room for sites that fail to meet the criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article. So, per Wikipedia guidelines, the door is left open a crack when it comes to allowing personal web pages and when it comes to allowing sites that fail to meet the criteria for reliable sources. This leaves the suitability of DoNotGod's link very much open to discussion, which hopefully will continue. Let us not forget: "Wikipedia does not "enshrine" old practices: bold changes to its policies and guidelines are sometimes the best way to allow the encyclopedia to adapt and improve." Snowwhiteunger (talk) 14:54, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Usually a "recognized authority" is mentioned or quoted in the relevant literature, or perhaps on the web on relevant pages—mainstream or non-mainstream. If the person is not (or insufficiently) mentioned, I think we can safely say that he is not recognised. If you want to make changes to the policies, even you can edit the policies and guidelines, so go ahead and give it a try on the relevant policy talk pages. Meanwhile, there is—de facto—no consensus to include the DoNotGod page here, so you should make your case at the External links/Noticeboard. Good luck. - DVdm (talk) 15:30, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Apparently, SPI was launched against myself and the allegation was proven to be completely false. I wasn't the only one investigated, according to what I've read. This is serious imo, because it has the effect of targeted undermining of Consensus against only the editors who were in favor of including DoNotGod's link. That doesn't look good by any standard of fairness. Snowwhiteunger (talk) 13:35, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

dispute resolution noticeboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation#External_links_trim DoNotGod (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


text:
User:Utkarsh2094

User:Utkarsh2094

Introduction
Calendar of Scientific Events:-

Source

 * 1) www.iswaindia.com

source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Utkarsh2094


text:
George Szpiro

George Geza Szpiro (born 18 February 1950 in Vienna) is an Israeli–Swiss author, journalist, and mathematician. He has written articles and books on popular mathematics and related topics.

Life and career
Szpiro was born in Vienna in 1950, and moved to Zug, Switzerland, in 1961. He obtained a master's degree in mathematics and physics from ETH Zurich. He also obtained an MBA from Stanford University, in 1975. Afterward, he worked as a management consultant at McKinsey & Company. In 1984, he obtained a Ph.D. in mathematical economics from Hebrew University.

Szpiro was an assistant professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, during 1984–1986. He was a lecturer in mathematical economics at Hebrew University, during 1986–1992. He also taught at the University of Zurich. He has published research papers related to mathematics, finance, and statistics.

Since 1986, Szpiro has worked as a journalist at Neue Zürcher Zeitung. At NZZ, he has been the Israel correspondent and mathematics columnist. For his mathematics columns, Szpiro was awarded the Prix Média by the Swiss Academy of Natural Sciences, in 2003. He was also awarded the Media Prize by the German Mathematical Society, in 2006. Beside writing for NZZ, he has also written non-research mathematics columns for journals such as Nature and Notices of the American Mathematical Society.

Books

 * Kepler's Conjecture: How Some of the Greatest Minds in History Helped Solve One of the Oldest Math Problems in the World (John Wiley & Sons, 2003)
 * The Secret Life of Numbers: 50 Easy Pieces on How Mathematicians Work and Think (Joseph Henry Press, 2006)
 * Poincaré's Prize: The Hundred-Year Quest to Solve One of Math's Greatest Puzzles (Dutton, 2007)
 * Numbers Rule: The Vexing Mathematics of Democracy, from Plato to the Present (Princeton University Press, 2010)
 * A Mathematical Medley: Fifty Easy Pieces on Mathematics (American Mathematical Society, 2010)
 * Pricing the Future: Finance, Physics, and the 300-year Journey to the Black-Scholes Equation (Basic Books, 2011)

title: George Szpiro


text:
Talk:Bolboschoenus caldwellii

Link to bush tucker page
I note this plant is included on the bush tucker page (Bush tucker) where it states "The roots are edible once they've been roasted." I would suggest including a link to the bush tucker page - I don't know how to do that, plus include the information that its roots are edible.

Tzali (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bolboschoenus caldwellii


text:
autoreceptor

Etymology
en

Noun

 * 1)  A receptor, situated in the terminal of a presynaptic nerve cell, that is sensitive to neurotransmitters released by the neuron in whose membrane the autoreceptor sits.

title: autoreceptor


text:
User:<IP_ADDRESS>/sandbox

Article Evaluation

Article In question: No Fly List

 * Is everything in the article relevant to the article topic? Is there anything that distracted you?
 * There were numerous parts of the article that referenced the creation and maintenance of several other kinds of lists with similar purposes. I will admit that these lists are related, but i think they could also deserve thier own article. The section on the "no buy, no fly" debates was especially counter intuitive: it detracted from the rest of the article and was out of place, especially compared to the rest of the article.
 * Is the article neutral? Are there any claims, or frames, that appear heavily biased toward a particular position?
 * The article seems to be very neutral, but the opposing arguments to the use of the list appear deeper within the article, as opposed to the pro arguements which are at the top of the article. Other than that, the article appears to be unbiased
 * Are there viewpoints that are over-represented, or underrepresented?
 * The bottom of the article is essentially an essay against the list, and cites many examples of why it shouldn't be used. I think a bit more evidence in the pro list party would be appreciated
 * Check a few citations. Do the links work? Does the source support the claims in the article?
 * The citations work. They are very appropriate for the article (some include press releases from the FBI). They support the claims

 * Is each fact referenced with an appropriate, reliable reference? Where does the information come from? Are these neutral sources? If biased, is that bias noted?
 * The first facts the article mentions are not fact checked (the numbers given for the total number of names on the list), but many are fact checked. considering the sources cited for the article (coming from the FBI for instance, there are somethings that we can't guarantee in terms of accuracy, but most of them can be assumed to be as accurate as possible

 * Is any information out of date? Is anything missing that could be added?
 * The majority of the information appears to be a handful of years out of date. seeing as the use of the no-fly list has fallen out of favor in recent years, this is understandable. In addition, I think Mr. Trump's use of the no fly list to embargo several middle eastern countries would have been a great inclusion.
 * Check out the Talk page of the article. What kinds of conversations, if any, are going on behind the scenes about how to represent this topic?
 * There is a great deal of discussion concerning how best to represent the no fly list,as well as a large amount of discussion being directed to how best to differentiate this from the different lists in existence..
 * How is the article rated? Is it a part of any WikiProjects?
 * This is rated as a B article and also rated as a "start" article for both the Aviation and US politics Wikiproject. It is also recommended to be added to the Law enforcement project.
 * How does the way Wikipedia discusses this topic differ from the way we've talked about it in class?
 * Though the list itself has yet to come up in class, I see this as the combination of a tonne of data being placed into a single entity and being used for a singular purpose. This is, in my opinion, one of the the epitomes of data usage, and it has been situated at the center of many recent political debates. It makes perfect sense that it be discussed. This article does not reference where the data comes from that makes up the list, but it could and i think that this would make a fine addition to the larger picture.

title: User:142.118.185.132/sandbox


text:
Wikijunior:Solar System/Uranus

Uranus, the seventh planet from the Sun, was discovered by William Herschel on March 13, 1781.

How big is Uranus?
Uranus is 51,118 kilometers or about four Earths wide. It is the third widest and fourth heaviest planet in the Solar System.

What is the surface of Uranus like?
Uranus does not have a surface that you could stand on without going deep into the atmosphere. Under the atmosphere, there may be an even mixture of rock and ice.

What are the rings around Uranus like?
Uranus has eleven rings. They are dark in colour and very hard to see. They were discovered by accident in 1977. Scientists were studying a bright star near Uranus. However, the star's light was blocked before and after it disappeared behind Uranus. From this, they figured out that Uranus has a ring system.

What are its moons like?

Uranus has 27 known moons, which places it third in the Solar System for number of moons. The five main ones are Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania and Oberon.

Miranda
Miranda is the smallest and closest of Uranus's major moons. It is mainly made of ice and rock. Miranda's surface has grooves, cliffs, and valleys. The moon was named after a character in The Tempest, a play by Shakespeare.

Ariel
Ariel is made of rock and ice. Ariel has many valleys, but not many craters. Ariel was named after a character in the poem The Rape of the Lock by Alexander Pope. Ariel is also a spirit in The Tempest by Shakespeare.

Umbriel
Umbriel is made of lots of ices and some rock. It is also the darkest of Uranus's major moons. Umbriel was named after a character in the poem The Rape of the Lock by Alexander Pope.

Titania
Titania is the largest moon of Uranus. It is mostly ice and rock. The surface is covered with canyons. It was named after the Queen of the Fairies in A Midsummer's Night Dream, a play by Shakespeare.

Oberon
Oberon is the outermost of the major moons of Uranus. It is made of the same things as Titania. It has many craters. Some of them have white rays around them and dark crater floors. It was named after the King of the Fairies in A Midsummer's Night Dream.

Other Moons
There are 13 tiny moons known to be orbiting Uranus inside Miranda's orbit. Nine more tiny moons are known to be in big orbits beyond Oberon's orbit.

How long is a day on Uranus?
One day on Uranus is about 17.24 Earth hours long. Uranus spins on its side, maybe because of a big impact early in the history of the Solar System.

How long is a year on Uranus?
One year on Uranus would be 30,708 days or 84 years on Earth.

What is Uranus made of?
Unlike Jupiter and Saturn, Uranus is thought to be made mostly of rock and ice. The gases in its atmosphere are 83% hydrogen, 15% helium, and 2% methane. Other gases found in smaller amounts are ammonia, water, and methane. Uranus' blue color comes from methane clouds, which absorb red light and reflect blue light.

How much would Uranus's gravity pull on me?
If you were floating close to the cloud tops of Uranus, you would be pulled down with a force about 89% of Earth's gravity.

Who is Uranus named after?
Uranus was named after Ouranos, the Greek name for the sky. Ouranos was the ancient Greek deity of the heavens, the earliest supreme God. According to Greek mythology, Ouranos was the husband and son of Gaia, Mother Earth.

Next Topic: Neptune

title: Wikijunior:Solar System/Uranus


text:
Cocoa Programming/Objective-C basics

Objective-C is the native language of Cocoa applications. It is an object-oriented superset of ANSI C, allowing the developer to include "plain C" statements and code into the program. Any ANSI C program is a valid Objective-C program.

NSObject
The Objective-C used in Cocoa is a bit different from "plain" Objective-C, because of the Cocoa runtime system which defines a new root class,. All Cocoa objects should be descendants of  in order to gain from its improved memory management model.

is defined in the header.

The NSObject life cycle
To create an, send its class either an  or a   message:

Although " " and " followed by  " methods appear to be identical, Apple documentation seems to give preference to the latter method. This gives developers the ability to override  or   separately to achieve a certain result, if necessary.

Note that initializing an object may sometimes fail: for example a file containing the initialization data may be unavailable. In that case,  will return. Therefore, it is always necessary to check the return value of  before using the object!

After an object has been initialized, it is ready for use. To use an object, send it messages:

If the object understands the message, it will react to it. Otherwise, a trap is generated.

When an object is no longer used, it must be released. To release an object, send it a  message.

This will lead to the destruction of the object (unless it's still in use somewhere else, see Cocoa memory management for details).

When an object is about to be destroyed, it will receive a  message. If the object has reserved any resources, it should release them now.

Extending NSObject
All classes in an Cocoa/Objective-C application should be derivatives of. Thus, when defining a new class you should follow some basic rules:

 * Derive from :
 * Either directly or from a derivative
 * Define initializer & deallocator
 * Call base class initializer & deallocator

Deriving from
To create your class as a subclass of, define it as follows (in the interface definition file "MyClass.h"):

Defining initializer and deallocator
An initializer is a method that initializes an object. In Cocoa, the initializer for  is called. The  method for   does not know about user-defined classes and cannot therefore initialize their instances properly. Thus, it is essential to write an initializer method for your class. If the initialization does not require any parameters, the method to define is called  (i.e., you should override the base class initializer). This makes it possible to create instances of your class by using the  class method derived from  :

The above code creates a new instance of. Since  has no methods called   or , the messages are automatically sent to its base class.

To override the initializer for your class, optionally define it in the interface file:

and implement it in the.m file:

If the initialization requires additional parameters, you should define an initializer like, for example

Even then, it is often advisable to define a "default" initializer that calls your  method with suitable default parameters:

A deallocator is a method that is responsible to release all resources an object holds. The deallocator is called before an object is released, thus making sure everything gets cleaned up properly. In Cocoa, the deallocator method is. Every class that holds any resources should define a  method. For example:

Calling the base class initializer and deallocator
When a class is derived from some other class (as the  was derived from  ), the instances created from it are not only instances of the derived class, but also instances of the base class. This is called the is-a relation. A derived class is an extension of the base class: it can do more than the base class, but it can do everything the base class can. Therefore, objects of a derived class always contain everything that objects of the base class contain. If an  contains a retain count member variable, then also   objects will contain it. Thus, the "base class part" of a derived object needs to be initialized and deallocated when initializing and deallocating the derived object.

To initialize the base class part of an object write

to the very beginning of the initializer of your class. To deallocate the base class part of the object write

to the very end of the deallocator of your class.

More information
For more information on Objective-C in Cocoa, see
 * Objective-C Programming for general information on Objective-C
 * Objective-C GNUstep Base Programming Manual for specific information on Objective-C in Cocoa/GNUstep.

title: Cocoa Programming/Objective-C basics


text:
User:MichaelBillington/Blog

Trying to get more users into the #wikiversity-en channel
14:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well it's been almost a year since I used my wikiversity learning blog, but I finally have something to post about.

My first attempt back in March to try to make an easy way for people to get on IRC didn't seem to take off very well. I thought I'd make a better solution for people who don't want to [or don't know how to] edit their monobook.js.

So I made a page off-site which already has the IRC logon form and associated javascript on it, and uses the wikizine gateway. It uses the monobook skin and the wikiversity logo to make it look more familiar. It can be found here (tools.wikimedia.de)

You just enter a nickname and click logon. It will take you to the #wikiversity-en IRC channel on. Custodians can edit the text on the page, as well.

There's been some discussion about adding a "live chat" tab to every page. I don't think CGI:IRC is our best bet for this, but it would be very interesting, so long as it can be implemented well somehow. Any takers? :] --Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 14:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

And we have a blog
06:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, seeing as I'm the creator of the RSS bot which was made for Wikiversity learning blogs (User:MichaelBillingtonBot), it seems a bit odd that until now I didn't have one. So here it is. I can't see much being posted here, but it may as well exist  -- Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 06:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

title: User:MichaelBillington/Blog


text:
Hunan University station

Hunan University station is a subway station in Changsha, Hunan, China, operated by the Changsha subway operator Changsha Metro. Its name is derived from the nearby Hunan University campus.

Station layout
The station has one island platform.

History
The station was completed in November 2017 and opened on 26 May 2019.

Surrounding area

 * Hunan University

title: Hunan University station


text:
Talk:Yakisoba

Assessment
Not very long, but I can't imagine it could be much longer. And that picture is seriously making me hungry. LordAmeth 08:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yakisoba is also served in the dining facilities at United States Air Force installations.

Yakisoba is extremely popular in Brazil, been sold in carts around the streets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vegaswest (talk • contribs) 01:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

buckwheat or flour???
The second sentence contrasts buckwheat with flour. The intention is probably to say that Yakisob is made from wheat. But I don't know. (etxrge) --<IP_ADDRESS> 19:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yakisoba-pan
Yakisoba-pan is not usually sold at festivals in Japan. At festivals, they sell Yakisoba, not Yakisoba-pan. Yakisoba-pan is sold in convenience stores and bakeries as a kind of "Chori-pan 調理パン" which means buns with side dishes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Violetholmes (talk • contribs) 17:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

what do you mean "misperception of Yakisoba as a Japanese dish"?
This line doesn't make any sense. The dish has a Japanese name, a very particular flavor and you can't confuse it with chow mein. It doesn't matter if for example Ramen is derived from Chinese food, and Japanese internally consider it a "Chinese dish" - objectively/internationally speaking, it's a distinct Japanese dish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Nissin/Germany
Actually Nissin sells several types of instant Yakisoba in different price ranges in Germany, but I guess that's too much information in this article. Also I suppose the market is not limited to Germany, but includes some other EU countries too. --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Maruchan instant Yakisoba in US
Similarily to how Nissin sells instant Yakisoba, Maruchan does the same for the United States. --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Better resources and proposed info removal
Honestly it may have been derived from chow mein, but the article implies that the two are the same, like calling bread a cake since one is derived from the other.

Additionally, I propose that information calling a dish that originated in China be removed, as the taste is immensely different and there are no sources for that. Also a better picture should be added as the main picture because that one is not an accurate portrayal of yakisoba.

I am willing to rewrite the lead, and change the picture (in some time though). Also I am proposing the addition of the category "Regional Varieties" as there as such varieties. The preparation section also needs to be removed as that belongs on wikicookbooks, and an origin section is another possible add on

PikachuTatoo (talk) 17:37, 19 December 2014 (UTC)PikachuTatoo
 * you are an idiot. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 07:18, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Add-on I will takew action in January if no replies~

I agree with your proposed changes and I have two additional suggestions / questions: note the romanization of the term as 'yaki soba' as well as 'yakisoba'; and distinguish between yakisoba bread / pan as a type of hot dog bun filled with yakisoba as opposed to yaki soba bread as a type of grilled doughnut. (The latter form is depicted on the third page of the second chapter ("Lord Uro") of Volume 5 of the English translation of Kekkaishi a manga by Yellow Tanabe.)Penelope Gordon (talk) 22:45, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

This Article is full of errors and omissions
I corrected some of these errors and omissions in a previous revision, but my changes were reverted and I don't even see it in the history anymore.

1. Yakisoba sauce is nothing like oyster sauce. In fact, Yakisoba sauce is Japanese "so-su" which is basically worcester sauce. It contains no oysters (although it often uses small amounts of anchovy). cf. the Wikipedia article Sauce: "In modern Japanese cuisine, the word "sauce" often refers to Worcestershire sauce, introduced in the 19th century and modified to suit Japanese tastes. Tonkatsu, okonomiyaki, and yakisoba sauces are based on this sauce."

2. Yakisoba which is cooked with worcester sauce is "so-su yakisoba", the most common type. If just "yakisoba" is specified, than so-su yakisoba is implied. Contrary to the implication in the description, Yakisoba is always in sauce, unless it's shio yakisoba.

3. You can fry yakisoba with oil and garlic but no sauce. This is called "shio yakisoba" 塩焼きそば (salt yakisoba). This will always be specified, since it is not the usual default option.

4. There are other variations such as curry yakisoba (sosu yakisoba plus curry powder), etc.

5. "soba" does mean buckwheat, but it has a common second meaning of "buckwheat noodles". So the best (literal) translation of "yakisoba" is "cooked/fried buckwheat noodles". However, as correctly noted, wheat flour noodles are used. In fact, Yakisoba noodles are basically identical to ramen noodles. The description "Chinese style Soba" that is used is weird. I would say "Chinese Ramen-type noodles" or just "Ramen noodles". "Japanese white Udon" also sounds odd--what other colors does it come in? I would say "Japanese Udon noodles" or just "Udon noodles".

6. Yakisoba is usually available in restaurants which sell okonomiyaki, since it is prepared on the same kind of grill.

7. Instant yakisoba is commonly sold in Japan. These use noodles which are identical to cup ramen, and only require hot water to be added and drained in order to prepare them.

8. "Kata yakisoba" and "ankake yakisoba" are totally different dishes from regular yakisoba, so including a photo without explanation is confusing. In these dishes, wheat noodles are deep fried until crisp, and then a stew-like mixture is ladled on top. It is somewhat similar to the American dish Chow Mein, but not directly related in any way. Unlike regular yakisoba, this dish is regarded as a Chinese dish. In fact, if you order "yakisoba" in a Japan Chinese restaurant, this is what they will bring out.

9. It's possible that they use hot dog pieces, Spam and chicken in Yakisoba in Okinawa. But I have never seen these used ever in Honshuu. If this is true, it would be nice to have a citation.

10. As pointed out in another talk page comment, Yakisoba is sold at festivals (matsuri), but yakisoba pan is usually not sold there. Yakisoba pan is sold at conbis (convenience stores) or bread shops.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 07:42, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

the word "yaki"
i edited the the initial description of yakitori from "fried noodles" to "GRILLED noodles," as that is what the word/phrase yaki means, grilled, not fried. hope this helps authenticity. cheers, y'all and happy new year! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sidjsavage (talk • contribs) 18:02, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Image is clearly not yakisoba
I am Japanese. The image is clearly not of yakisoba. I shall be removing it. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 14:53, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Is it pancit? 2A00:23C6:BE86:B401:DC08:F7B6:63C9:6AC2 (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Worcestershire sauce in infobox?
Why is Worcestershire sauce in the infobox? Even if it’s a common ingredient is it quintessential? Is it more important to yakisoba then soy sauce or ketchup? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 04:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Worcestershire sauce seems to be a common ingredient of yakisoba. Why should it therefore not be included in the infobox? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well I think it should be changed to “yakisoba sauce” or include soy sauce, woster and ketchup because the infobox makes it sound like the sauce IS woster and not that Woster is just a small part of a larger sauce. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * My take on it is that "Japanese Worcestershire sauce" is the main type of sauce used in yakisoba, whereas other types of sauces, such as soy sauce and ketchup, aren't nearly as common.Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 00:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Instant Yakisoba
Nissin does instant yakisoba but I saw a packet on Google that said on the packet Pancit and I can write a sub article about it. Now the Pancit thing, what is it yakisoba or Pancit??? Can someone add more detail for the Pancit article they says instant Pancit that Nissin has an instant “ Pancit “ 2A00:23C6:BE86:B401:DC08:F7B6:63C9:6AC2 (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding Otaru Ankake Yakisoba
I am in the process of attempting to de-orphan the regional yakisoba variant Otaru Ankake Yakisoba and feel like it might have a place listed in either the See also section of this article or as an image with a caption linking to the dish's page. Are there any opinions either way? ~ Trucks7op (talk) 02:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say an entry under See also would be sufficient. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yakisoba


text:
Threadbanger

Threadbanger is an American YouTube channel run by Rob Czar and Corinne Leigh producing primarily DIY and crafting content. The channel is known for such series as Man vs. Pin, Corinne vs. Pin, Man vs. House, and the YouTube Red series Do or DIY.

History
Threadbanger launched in 2008. The channel began with content centred around sewing but later shifted to focus on broader DIY series such as Man vs. Pin and Corinne vs. Pin. Threadbanger reached one million subscribers in 2015.

Threadbanger began posting videos as part of the Man vs. House series in late 2017. The series followed Czar and Leigh refurbishing and renovating an older house. Man vs. House was sponsored by Lowe's. In May 2018, Threadbanger launched the YouTube Red series Do or DIY.

In 2019, Czar was declared medically deceased after suffering a heart attack. He was revived and subsequently diagnosed with the autoimmune disease, granulomatosis with polyangiitis. Czar's health issues caused the Threadbanger to take a break from posting videos. Threadbanger returned to posting videos on August 3, 2019 with the video "I DIED....but", which recounted Czar's health issues for the YouTube audience. As of October 2019, Threadbanger had 4 million subscribers.

After recovering, Czar began working seriously on his painting, partly chronicling his art-making on ThreadBanger. In 2022, Czar and Leigh opened an art gallery called the Czart Gallery in West Asheville to display Czar's art.

In 2024, Czar uploaded a YouTube video to his personal channel titled "How-To Ghost Your Audience On Youtube!" in which he indicated that the Threadbanger channel will be no longer updated.

Awards
Czar and Leigh were honorees during the 2009 Webby awards for the How-To, Explainer & DIY category. Along with being the nominees during the 2008, 2009, and 2015 Webbys. During the 2017 Webbys, Threadbanger won the People's Voice category for best web personality.

title: Threadbanger


text:
Tatyana Troina

Tatyana Troina (Таццяна Уладзіміраўна Троіна, born 30 June 1981) is a Belarusian basketball player who competed in the 2008 Summer Olympics and in the 2016 Summer Olympics in Rio de Janeiro.

title: Tatyana Troina


text:
6 Below: Miracle on the Mountain

6 Below: Miracle on the Mountain is a 2017 American survival drama film directed by Scott Waugh and written by Madison Turner, based on the non-fiction book Crystal Clear by Eric LeMarque and Davin Seay. It stars Josh Hartnett, Mira Sorvino, Sarah Dumont, and Jason Cottle, and tells the true story of former professional hockey player Eric LeMarque, who finds himself stranded in the High Sierra during a fierce snowstorm and must use his wit and willpower to survive. The film was released in the United States on October 13, 2017.

Premise
In February 2004, when a snowstorm strands former professional hockey player Eric LeMarque atop the Sierra Nevada Mountains, he is forced to rediscover the power of faith within him in order to survive.

Cast

 * Josh Hartnett as Eric LeMarque
 * Mira Sorvino as Susan LeMarque
 * Sarah Dumont as Sarah
 * Jason Cottle as David LeMarque

Production
In February 2016, it was announced the first film former Relativity Studios president Tucker Tooley would finance 6 Below, based on the memoir by Eric LeMarque. Filming began in Utah in March 2016.

Release
In February 2017, Momentum Pictures acquired the distribution rights to the film, later setting it for an October 13, 2017 release.

Critical response
On review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes the film holds an approval rating of 22% based on 18 reviews, with an average rating of 4.37/10. On Metacritic, the film has a weighted average score of 40 out of 100, based on 5 critics, indicating "mixed or average reviews".

title: 6 Below: Miracle on the Mountain