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Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 184

New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case
Current dispute regarding extremely topical subject matters; hence the importance of ascertaining whether or not the below-referenced are, in fact, reliable sources.

Respectfully submitted, Quis separabit?  01:22, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

 * A complete determination of reliability requires both a source and a diff of what it's used to say. Considering the naked bias of most of the sources in this list, I'd be very skeptical of relying only on the discretion of involved editors to parse the Daily Caller report. I suggest treating Daily Caller as WP:PRIMARYNEWS, and using the Fox piece (the most professional on the topic that Google turned up) as a secondary source to determine what was significant in Daily Caller's investigation. Carefully observe where Fox uses attribution, "reportedly", scare quotes, etc. Other low-quality republications of the same info add nothing worthwhile. HuffPo looks perfectly fine for reporting without analysis that Schmaler left her position. It looks like a group "Justice Watch" received emails from an FOIA request that are the same or similar to those received by Daily Caller. The least-bad secondary on that seems to be . I wouldn't trust AIM for analysis, but it seems good enough to confirm for WP the existence and notability of the Justice Watch report. Rhoark (talk) 16:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons
At Talk:St. John's Park there is question as to whether Wikimedia Commons photo of a No Trespassing sign is reliable/verifiable reference used to support the statement:

it is not legally accessible to pedestrians

Reference in question:

Djflem (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Djflem's statement of the situation is givs the wrong impression. The actual argument is this: the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey owns some property.  On the fence around the property, they have placed a "No trespassing" sign.  Thus the PANYNJ has "published" the sign to the public, and it can therefore be cited to show that the property is not legally accessible.  The photograph I took of the sign is then in the nature of verification of the existence and placement of the sign, to show that I have not made it up out of whole cloth. So, "Commons" isn't what's being cited as a reliable source, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is being cited as a reliable source for their own regulations, as publicly displayed in the sign, and my photograph is offered as verification of the objective reality of the sign. That seems pretty straightforward to me. BMK (talk) 01:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, here are the diffs from 13 days ago, when Pburka first explained this to Djflem:, . BMK (talk) 01:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

 * The existence of a 'no trespassing' sign on a property is in no shape or form evidence that the property is in fact not legally accessible to pedestrians. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Why is that? In any jurisdiction I'm familiar with, the posting of a "no trespassing" sign serves as legal notice that the owner does not want anyone on the property without permission. Without such a sign, or alternately one sayong "Posted: Private Property", it's possible that the police, prosecutors and courts will not aceept a criminal complaint of trespassing, and that a civil complaint will fail due to lack of proper advance notification.  Given then, I'd say that the sign is very much evidence that the labelled property is legally inaccessible.  BMK (talk) 02:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Aside from that, I think you're rather missing the crux: that by posting the sign, the Port Authority is publishing their intention concerning the property, that no one should trespass on it. Since the property belongs to them, they certainly have the right to limit who can and cannot be on the property, and the article can cite that. BMK (talk) 02:28, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

 * A sign may very possibly indicate what the owner wants. It isn't however evidence that what the owner wants is legally enforcible (or even evidence that the person responsible for putting up the sign is in fact the owner for that matter). Any assertion that a sign is proof of legal rights is WP:OR plain and simple. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I very much disagree, especially since, in this case, the Port Authority is a bi-state governmental agency with its own police force to enforce its will. What your arguing, then, is a stop sign placed on a city street corner is not indicative of the city's assertion that you mist legally stop there. I think there's no way that makes sense, and no way citing it as proof that a stop is required can be considered to be OR. BMK (talk) 03:01, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Police forces are supposed to enforce law, not will - though whether they always do so in practice is perhaps not best discussed here. Anyway, you are citing something (a sign) for something it does not state, based on that sign in combination with your interpretation of other sources. That is synthesis plain and simple, in my opinion. And since there is no point in engaging in a "yes it is, no it isn't" style dialogue here, I suggest we wait for further opinion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In this case "will" = 'law" or, at least, legally enforceable regulation. But I agree, let's see what others say. BMK (talk) 03:56, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with others that a sign can certainly be a reliable source--when it is visible from a public place, it is published, and could be reliable if it meets the ordinary criteria. Just think of informational signs placed by the National Park Service, for example. There seems to be no dispute that the sign is placed by the Port Authority. The case here, then, is solely whether "no trespassing" equates to "not legally accessible to pedestrians" without editor synthesis, which is a question of WP:OR. In my view, a simple "no trespassing" signs is too ambiguous to support that statement. "No trespassing" can mean "do not enter except when the gate is open," or "do not enter after hours," for example. "No trespassing" simply asserts that passage across the area is not free, which is altogether different than "not legally accessible." For the latter claim, a different source is necessary. Knight of Truth (talk) 04:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * So, I pick up a book which I want to use as a source. The title page says near the middle of the page "The Bastion of Truth" with "Edward Rudick" under it.  At the bottom of the page it says "Harper & Row" and underneath that "1972".  Note that the title page does not identify what any of these phrases or numbers mean, but because I'm intimately familiar with the conventions of book publishing, I cite it as a source with "title=The Bastion of Truth", "author=Edward Rudick", publisher="Harper & Row", and "date=1972." Are we seriously saying that my real world knowledge of publishing conventions which allows me to translate the meaning of the title page is an example of OR?  If not, how is it any different from my knowledge of signage convention that "No Trespassing" means "Don't come in here"? Really, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just sensing that the concept of "OR" is being stretched far beyond its intended purpose, which is to prevent original research  of editors from being published in Wikipedia articles. There is no "original research" involved in the example here (any more than there is "original research in finding sources by researching online or in a library), only the reading of the sign and the reporting of it existence ith the application of everyday common "Sky is blue" sense. BMK (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * When I say "original research," I mean you're adding a meaning to a source that is not evidently there. It is not a "sky is blue" issue because, as I said, "no trespassing" does not universally mean "no access without express authorization." Many places that are perfectly legal for the public to enter (within certain restrictions imposed by the owner) have "no trespassing" signs posted somewhere. It would be different, say, if we were looking at an "employees only" or similar, more specific sign. Without specifics, it is a legal interpretation that in this context "no trespassing" means that the area is entirely off-limits to pedestrians, and it is not for editors to provide such interpretations. Knight of Truth (talk) 06:00, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, "no trespassing" does universally mean "no access without authorization" That is exactly and precisely what it means. The authorization can be express or implicit.  I can't imagine how anyone would get the impression that it means anything other than that.  BMK (talk) 06:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That's just my point. If "no trespassing" does not mean an area is inaccessible (e.g. if there is routine authorization under circumstances), then the sign does not support the statement as written. Knight of Truth (talk) 21:36, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree with AndyTheGrump above. Someone putting up a sign does not indicate that the terms on the sign are automatically legally binding or even true. I have myself run into situations where companies or agencies have attempted to insist that an area is not legally acceptable because of a place sign, despite the sign being in obvious contravention to the law-- case in point, many years ago, when taking photographs of an oil refinery in rural Illinois from the shoulder of a state road, security attempted to force me to leave for trespassing, pointing out the "NO TRESPASSING" sign. Of course, a private company cannot simply assert authority over a public roadway, the sign was inoperative, and taking its existence as indicative of a legal fact was incorrect. Simply taking a picture of the sign in this case and attempting to use it as proof of a legal statement is synthesis; the picture of the sign is evidence (assuming we can accept that the picture is actually what it purports to be) of the existence of the sign and could also be construed to be evidence that the agent who put it up is asserting it's legally true (this is a stretch), but the sign is not, ipso facto, a legal fact. The sign is meant to indicate a legal fact, but does not demonstrate it. siafu (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that you are taking into account that the entity posting the "No trespassing" sign is a governmental agency, with its own police (who are peace officers) to enforce its edicts. That makes it a bit different than a private company or citizen posting such a sign. Their postings have the force of law. BMK (talk) 07:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Taking a picture of the sign to serve as verifiable proof of a fact is, as I explained, WP:SYNTH and also could be construed as WP:OR. Also, having one's own police force does not make it different: many universities have their own police forces, who are bonded peace officers, but this does not suddenly empower them make new laws. siafu (talk) 13:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you're entirely ignoring the inconvenient fact that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is a bi-state governmental agency empowered to do exactly that, make regulations that have the force of law and which can -- and will -- be enforced by their police officers. What I've seen in this discussion is very interesting, editors bending over backwards -- in their own versions of OR (or, as the rest of the world would call it "unfounded speculation") -- to interpret a sign issued by a government agency in every possible way except the most reasonable, logical and common sense one: that it is announcing that no one is allowed to tresspass on the property, and that the governmental agency will enforce that warning.' For those of you of that rather peculiar state of mind, I wish you luck when you ignore a similar sign in your area and climb over a fence to play Frisbee. BMK (talk) 01:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps both parties would be willing to consider more literal alternative wording, such as:
 * but access is prevented by a gated fence and a "No Trespassing" sign.

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:02, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not a gated fence, just a fence, but the point is a good one. In fact, the fence does not surround the property -- it can't, because it has a bunch of exits from the Holland Tunnel and the cars need to get out, so it can't be fenced off completely.  This is exactly the reason why it needs to be described as legally inaccessible, because it is, in actual fact, very easily physical accessible to anyone willing to cross two lanes of traffic.  I know, I've done it, and took pictures from there -- and was warned for doing so and told to leave.  To say that the exit plaza is "not accessible to pedestrians" is somewhat deceptive, which is why I opted for "not legally accessible to pedestrians", which is more accurate. BMK (talk) 01:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Great info BMK, and congrats for getting pictures of public property despite the discouragement. A 'No Trespassing' sign (for which the Commons photo is surely a reliable source) doesn't make anything 'legally inaccessible'. We don't know what the law is in force, and it has surely never been tested in a court. We can say that the Port Authority prohibits access, but we don't know if it has an enforceable bylaw, regulation or common law right to stop you going there. These are the kind of loopholes that vigilante litterpickers and guerrilla gardeners exploit. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, bending over backwards to interpret the sign in every conceivable way except the common, reasonable, obvious and logical one is OR, not vice versa. BMK (talk) 19:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * One more for "the Port Authority prohibits access". That is, hopefully, a compromise that everyone can accept, and, frankly, the difference is not worth fighting over. --GRuban (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Not accurate. The Port Authority has posted a sign that states "No Trespassing." Do we have sources for more than that? Hipocrite (talk) 21:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Is www.bwtf.com a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia?
I am curious as to how one can determine whether a particular web site is a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia.

The site in question appears to be a fan site, but I'm open minded to different standards perhaps being okay for toy sites and toy-related articles, if the community has weighed in on such matters in previous consensus discussions.

Is www.bwtf.com a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia? Cheers. N2e (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It does not seem to be a reliable source per WP:SPS, but self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications. According to Ben, he has been interviewed by a few notable publications. If this is verified to be true, then that lends some credibility. Do other reliable sources cite his website? If so WP:USEBYOTHERS factors in.- MrX 13:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I would add a caveat to what Mr. X says... assuming that the author can be considered an expert, then any material taken from his self published source should be phrased as being his opinion (ie attributed) and not stated as unattributed fact. Blueboar (talk) 15:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks for offering views on the matter. It was related to a mongo 10 kByte addition to this article List of Beast Wars Neo Characters by an IP editor, where much of the edit was totally unsourced, and some parts of it were sourced with the web site I asked about.  I BRD'd it and have started a discussion on the Talk page.  Haven't yet heard back from the editor who had added the large edit.  N2e (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Iranian sources for biography: Iran Book News Agency, Islamic Republic News Agency, and Tehran Times
Are the "Iran Book News Agency," Tehran Times, and the Islamic Republic News Agency reliable sources for a biography of an Iranian soldier of the Iraq-Iran War - in this case for Ahmad Keshvari? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 03:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Possibly. Are you able to link to the newspaper articles and tell us what content is being supported by those sources?- MrX 18:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Two are English news websites, "Iran Book News Agency" and Tehran Times the third source, Islamic Republic News Agency, has a website for English and a site for Farsi. Ism schism (talk) 18:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The newspaper sources would generally be considered reliable. Iran Book News Agency, is not useful as a source per my comments in the section below.- MrX 19:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree. IRNA is a government controlled newspaper and as such serves the same role as press releases published by corporations: it is not an independent news source but instead an instrument of policy. Today's headlines include:
 * "Social Networks have to be Used to Serve National Interests"
 * "Iran Aluminum Output Exceeds 290,000 tonnes"
 * "End of Dollar Domination over Iran's Economy"
 * "Iran space program: sky is not the limit"
 * "Book on Leader’s vision of Islamic theology released in U.S."
 * Its just a mouthpiece for the government, and reads pretty much like Pravda did in the 1970s. Its about as reliable a source as a press release or television advertisement. I'd say the same is probably true for the Tehran Times, but I'll eat my words if someone can point out an article that is in any direct or indirect way critical of any government policy or which is out of line with the government's position on any subject. Formerly 98 (talk) 19:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Soka Gakkai
Before being threatened with a topic ban again I would like a third opinion on the section about “Peace activities”. There are a number of links (SG links) indicating that some SGI adherents like doing gymnastics and building human pyramids. I’d like a third opinion if there is enough evidence that this IS an official SGI peace activity and if the reference stated are concrete enough? Posted this message earlier on the Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please review the boxes at the top of the page, in particular what information should be included with a request. Rhoark (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Well the sources given are [], [] and []. I am not sure if one could conclude with those sources given that “Soka Gakkai considers dance and other performance art to be a major aspect of its peace activities” and secondly I am not sure if that is rather promotional. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

 * The paper by Cornelio looks reliable for such a claim. Talk page consensus should be sought for whether it needs to be attributed to the author or stated in Wikipedia's voice. The websites of the event and organization would only be reliable for uncontroversial claims about themselves. Rhoark (talk) 22:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Right Web as external link
Robert Kagan profile on "Right Web"  is added also as an external link. It is also editorial in nature, and does not offer "research" or other WP:EL rationales for its inclusion. The discussions on the BLP offer no consensus in favour of including these sources as "proof" that Kagan is a "neoconservative" and this may be a means of presenting such a claim where the talk page disallowed the claim per WP:CONSENSUS.

Query: Is the Right Web editorial biography a valid external link where the inclusion of that source was specifically disallowed on the talk page discussions? Thanks. Collect (talk) 12:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Given that numerous high-quality sources describe Kagan as neoconservative (NY Times, BBC, etc. etc.) use of a lower quality source is unnecessary. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * No. I would not consider this EL source a RS for contentious claims in a BLP. I suggest that unless the subject has self-identified as a "neoconservative" calling him one would require that to be described as an opinion. E.G. "The New York Times and the BBC have described Mr. Kagan as a neoconservative." (refs). Capitalismojo (talk) 14:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

 * The question is skewed and a misrepresentation has been made regarding Talk page discussion, because the source was not being used in relation to the claim that Kagan is a neoconservative at all. There are many better sources for that.
 * The citation to the Right Web profile, which is a tertiary source containing 24 sources that includes multiple NYT and WP articles and is fairly neutral, has been in the Robert Kagan article with consensus continually since May 2007, when it was first added as an External link. Here is the link to the Talk thread addressing its deletion.
 * It was claimed to be an "attack site" because it characterizes the public figures profiled there as "militarists" on the webpage.-- Ubikwit 連絡見学/迷惑 01:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Right Web's declared purpose is partisan: "Tracking militarists’ efforts to influence U.S. foreign policy", ["assesses the work of prominent ... individuals ... who promote militarist U.S. foreign and defense policies" http://rightweb.irc-online.org/about/].  However, the word "militarist" does not appear in the biography of Robert Kagan, not even in the nasty stitches holding together quotes from its (weak) sources. Thus, the website's "profile" is not serious.
 * The sources are mostly Kagan's writings and newspaper or quarterly journalists and pundits, rather than academic researchers publishing in peer reviewed journals or books. The quotes are linked by undocumented partisan assertions. For example, there are no citations supporting this original research: "'Israel-centred neoconservatives, for whom Obama’s “weakness” and “appeasement” in dealing with perceived adversaries have become a mantra over the past five years, have been quick to use the Ukraine crisis to argue for toughening Washington’s position in the Middle East....'"
 * The sources are weak, but one should beware of miscounting duplicates, which might suggest that this was a serious resource: E.g., Journalist Horowitz's one article [1,3,7,12] and Kagan's own writings are repeatedly cited. is a 01:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Freezerbox Magazine (freezerbox.com)
Is Freezerbox.com a proper external source on the Robert Kagan BLP?

is used as an external source for that article. It quite appears to be a self-published source and the article appears to be entirely editorial in nature, and IMO not a valid external source per WP:EL

 *  Infused with the righteousness of the true believer, neo-conservatives are terrifyingly fanciful when it comes to international affairs. Robert Kagan and William Kristol, two neo-con architects of GOP policy, recently penned an essay in the conservative National Review entitled "The Present Danger" in which they explicitly held up the Cold War era Reagan model as appropriate for the next president. While the authors admit that the new Present Danger is not incarnate in any adversary--"it has no name"--they nonetheless recommend that the US spend an extra $60-100 billion per year above current defense budgets to combat it. This money would be devoted to enhancing America's ability to project force abroad and the pursuance of "regime change," i.e., the invasion of foreign countries and the overthrow of leaders unpalatable to Mr. Kagan and Mr. Kristol. Flagrant disregard for international law and arms racing is to make the world safe for democracy--again.  is the salient marterial which the editor adding this external link seems to think important for readers.

Query: Is such an editorial from a self-published source a valid external link? WP:EL states Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy. Thanks. Collect (talk) 12:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * No. It's like a blog without references. is a 01:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Brooklyn Lee

 * Generally, I've found that reliable sources for the real names of pornographic actors are hard to find, but I added this (from the International Business Times) to the above article. I was then reverted by and then directed to this discussion (from four years ago) that suggested that a consensus had been reached that IBT is not a reliable source. After reading that discussion, I fail to see that a consensus had been met after all, so I re-added the information while suggesting that if Morbidthoughts still disagrees, to start a new RSN thread. S/he simply re-reverted my addition, so I am starting a thread here myself. Does anyone else object to International Business Times being a reliable source?  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources for real names are hard to find because the subjects intentionally conceal it. This is actually a WP:BLPN issue. As I mentioned on your talk page, "The burden of proof lies on the editor who adds the material. The issue of real names of pornographic actors is contentious enough that it requires exceptional sources. The fact that multiple users have disputed the reliability of IBT guides us to err on the side of omission." Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Their front-page headline was that Putin may be autistic. Would not trust this source for BLP claims. Rhoark (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Japan Today?
I recently removed a false citation of the online newspaper Japan Today from the article Ainu people. In that case, JT was named inline as the source, but the actual JT article stated that it was a reprint of an article from a magazine that explicitly admits to not fact-checking. (I added the details on the talk page.) I'm still a little concerned about other articles citing this source, though: JT has explicitly borrowed over 400 articles from Metropolis, which doesn't fact-check. I don't know how to search all English Wikipedia articles for this citation (a lot of articles include the text "In Japan today, it is ..." and the like), but Ethnic issues in Japan currently cites it 4 times, and Interac (Japan) three times. Their "About" page says they translate articles from Japanese sources, but they don't indicate how they mark translations off from their own material -- this is concerning because an accurate translation can't be edited for fact-checking purposes -- and they don't indicate that fact-checking is what they do. The first translated article I found on searching (again, they don't make it easy) is taken from a Japanese blog (WP:SELFPUB), but doesn't specify such in its translation -- it just makes itself look like a normal newspaper article. I'm also wondering what their advertising policy means when it says "Japan Today offers the following advertising services to companies seeking to reach foreigners both within and outside Japan: [...] advertorials (separate coverage may also be made by a foreign reporter)" (『ジャパン・トゥデイ』では、国内外の外国人に訴求されたい企業様に向けて以下のような広告商品をご提供しています. [...] 記事広告（外国人専属記者による別途取材も可）). (Unlike their translations, advertorials appear to at least be marked as such.) Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 07:21, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * A publisher does not conifer truth and accuracy. Something of dubious origin does not become "reliable" because of re-publication or by mirroring in another (better) publication. And that better publication does not certainly become the true "origin" of such material by the act of mere reprinting. In such cases, the origin should be cited for transparency at minimum. The true origin or any faults with the material can not be diminished or diverted by arguing that it was "republished in a more reliable source" under said circumstances. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Japan Today is a blog, and while they sometimes carry reporting, much of what's posted there is personal opinion. It's absolutely not reliable, and shouldn't be used as a source except when it is quoted as a noteworthy blog (for example, a product review). Shii (tock) 07:42, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Um,, it calls itself an online newspaper, it looks like a newspaper, and it has editors. I think that's different from a blog. It's true that it carries a lot of material sourced elsewhere – wire service stories, press releases, and translations of material from Japanese newspapers, magazines, and blogs. It's a low-budget operation. The same is true of many other online newspapers, which are essentially aggregators. In practical terms, if the original source is indicated, I think it should be treated the same way as other aggregator-type newspapers. The reliability of any particular story depends on the original source.
 * I'm also fairly dubious about the idea that a reporter's statements about Japanese history are nothing more than opinion. Sure, it would be preferable to cite a renowned historian about how the Ainu were treated in Edo-period Japan. But this is what reporters do. They read books by historians and report their findings. In practical terms I think it's going to be difficult to exclude statements by reporters about matters that have also been discussed in books by historians. – Margin1522 (talk) 09:21, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It's really not a newspaper in the way we understand that on this noticeboard. It's a blog that copies and pastes a lot of stories. Shii (tock) 04:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That is correct, it is an unreliable online publication, like everything operated by GPlus Media.
 * When they first started the "newspaper", they had subscribed to the English language version of the respected and reliable Kyodo news wire serve (like an AP service), but they subsequently dropped that and turned into more of a gossipy forum.-- Ubikwit 連絡見学/迷惑 11:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Looking at the top two stories and the five "most popular" stories on the front page of today's Japan Today, they have three wire service stories, from AFP, Reuters, and AP. Also two stories under their own byline – one about the Tokyo Marathon, and one about a low-teen singer who was taken to the hospital after inhaling too much helium before a TV show. Those two are like local news stories in any other newspaper. So far, still like a newspaper and nothing unreliable.
 * The remaining two are irrelevant, because one was a digest of a story from The Economist and for that we would cite The Economist, and one was an anonymous readers' forum with opinions about the best city in the world. Stuff like that also appears in newspapers, and doesn't matter because we never cite it.
 * Anyway, none of this is relevant to the OP's original question, the Ainu story. In the Japan Today it was just a reprint. The OP should have corrected the cite to refer to the original source and then asked about that. – Margin1522 (talk) 14:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Chuck Bryant
I posted this on the talk page of the article on Chuck Bryant as well: Most of the sources are based on Chuck Bryant's own statements in different episodes of the Stuff You Should Know podcast (at least 12 of the cited sources). I don't think this goes as a reliable source in this context because Bryant talks about himself. Would be nice to get some opinions on this matter. Tuluqaruk (talk) 08:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I trimmed all the trivia out of the article, not sure if it meets WP:GNG. Tagged accordingly. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  18:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Multiple Landmark Worldwide sources
At least one editor at Landmark Worldwide would like to use the following sources to support the given statements. Others (including myself) disagree. Please provide commentary to assist us in resolving these questions. Thank you. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note, the most recent discussion of these sources is found at Talk:Landmark_Worldwide. --Tgeairn (talk) 04:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Tidskriften Analys & Kritik
Source:

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content: "Landmark closed its offices in Sweden as of June 2004."

Discussion:

1) This is listed as being published by "University of Zurich and University of Düsseldorf" in the citation. The linked article is published in the "Journal of Analysis & Criticism", which was published by "Steve Hall".

2) There is no indication of editorial oversight or of reliability of this source.

3) It looks to be a "blog" type entry. Some other entries are sourced, but this one is not. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ad 1. The link points to a journal issue of Tidskriften Analys & Kritik, which is Swedish not German. Here is the record in The European Library (derived from the Swedish National Library - it has its own record but deeplinking is not possible). It is as far as I can see not an issue of the Journal of Analysis & Criticism (has there ever been a journal published under that title?). Neither is it the German journal Analyse & Kritik (Düsseldorf and Zürich). Here is the webpage of Analyse & Kritik. None of the aforementioned journals has ever been published by Steve Hall. So their seems to be a lot of confusion here.
 * Ad 2. Possibly true.
 * Ad 3. True, but also renowned journals as for example Nature have 'blog'-type entries.
 * I am not certain if the source suffices to support the statement. Is the statement that Landmark stopped its activities in Sweden after the Swedish television had broadcasted the Landmark documentary films (Kalla Fakta, 2003/2004) controversial at all? This website provides the same information. Theobald Tiger (talk) 16:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, the full statement from the article is "Following these articles and programs on the private TV channel TV4, Landmark closed its offices in Sweden in June 2004.", which is unsupported by the source and not supported by the FRI post either. It may be possible to source that Landmark does not have an office in Sweden, but we don't have sources for this cause-effect relationship. --Tgeairn (talk) 18:26, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Scribd.com
Source:

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content: "In 2001 Landmark Education formed Tekniko Licensing Corporation, a Nevada corporation, which purchased Tekniko Technology from Giles' company."

Discussion:

1) The scribd copy of a document doesn't appear to support the text at all. 2) It's scribd.com - not a reliable source at all.

3) The document appears to have a url at the top (http://www.secinfo.com/dRqWm.5wzh.htm). This url is already linked as a different source in the article, and the editor insists that this is a separate and different document. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ad 1. I agree that both the secinfo-website and the scribd-document (the last is a part of the first) do not support the current text. The source merely states that Giles is the owner of Tekniko Licensing Corporation. Here is a vacancy for a Tekniko Administrative Manager (2005), which clearly states: "The qualified candidate would be accountable for managing all administrative aspects of one of Landmark Education's wholly owned subsidiaries, Tekniko Licensing Corporation." So there must have been a transfer between 2000 and 2005.
 * Ad 2. Generally this is true, but it is in the context a form of hairsplitting.
 * Ad 3. It is misleading to say that the editor (Astynax) has insisted that the Scribd-file is a separate and different document.
 * The text is not properly backed by sources (though I think it likely that the information is correct). Theobald Tiger (talk) 19:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

DIKE staff
Source:

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content: "Subsidiaries: The Vanto Group, Landmark Education International, Inc."

Discussion:

This is an anonymous passage from an anti-cult editorial website, which states "The personal opinions of the individual authors do not represent the opinion of SINUS". It is not a reliable source. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The source does not support Landmark Education International, Inc. being a subsidiary of Landmark Worldwide. That Vanto Group is a wholly owned subsidiary is openly acknowledged by Landmark Worldwide. As far as I am aware Landmark Education International, Inc. is a former name of Landmark Worldwide. Theobald Tiger (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Cultic Studies Review
Source:

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content: "Other observers have noted relationships between the training programs and religion or a spiritual experience"

Discussion:

1) This citation claims the journal was published by the International Cultic Studies Association, which did not exist at the time of publication. The actual document shows that it was published by the AFF (a predecessor to the ICSA).

2) The Cultic Studies Review did not have (and did not claim) an editorial review, and the TOC of the issue clearly shows which articles were peer-reviewed (this one was not).

3) A copy of the article is found here, and does not support the cited passage in any way. The source says "we have also had many inquiries about the American psychogroup, Landmark, which is associated with cults because of the high level of one-sided sales pressure that many people report."  The source is calling Landmark a psychogroup (not religion or spiritual) and then says "Tvind is another [emphasis added] non-religious organization...", effectively saying the opposite of that the passage in the article claims.  And again, there was no peer-review or editorial review. Simply a statement by a self-trained "Exit Counselor". --Tgeairn (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ad 1. What Tgeairn calls "the actual document" does not, as far as I can see, contain the text relevant to the issue.
 * Ad 2. Therefore Tgeairn's conclusion under 2. is based, I fear, upon the wrong publication. (But I think the conclusion is nevertheless true.)
 * Ad 3. This reference should be removed, because it doest not support the text. The text itself needs not to be changed, as it is backed by other (and better) references. Theobald Tiger (talk) 22:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Re 1: You're right, the pdf of the print copy does not contain that article (and I should have made that clear in my opening remarks). It was only in the electronic (website) edition of that issue.  Somewhere in the web archive I saw the listing showing what was in the print copy and what was electronic only.  If needed, I can go dig that up, but it seems unnecessary to do so (given the other issues with the source and the availability of other sources). --Tgeairn (talk) 18:31, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Not reliable Given that ICSA doesn't seem to have had editorial review prior to 2010, any ICSA article from before that time should not be considered a reliable source. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Lockwood, Religiosity Rejected
Source:

Article: Landmark Worldwide

Content: "Before leaving his position at Mind Dynamics, Erhard considered setting up est as a church" "It [Landmark] has also denied any direct connection between its programs and Erhard's est and Forum" "Some scholars have categorized Landmark and its predecessor organizations as new age, self religion or a new religious movement."

Discussion:

These are three controversial statements, and each of them require exceptional sources before we make them. At the time this source was published, the author (Lockwoood) was a graduate student at the University of Sydney. In the paper, the author acknowledges that several articles have been published about the Landmark Forum, and says "These have proved to be valuable resources, and are referenced here only when their account can be supported by the author's experiences of the Landmark Forum". This is also not the behaviour of a researcher. About the claims:

1) "Before leaving his position at Mind Dynamics, Erhard considered setting up est as a church". This is taking the source (Bartlet, 1978) somewhat out of context, Barlet said "...a variety of alternative plans were canvased - whether to be profit or nonprofit, whether to organize as a church...".  We should just stick with citing Bartlet.

2) "It [Landmark] has also denied any direct connection between its programs and Erhard's est and Forum". The word denied is only in the paper once ("...[Landmark] has continuously denied being a religious organization").  The paper does not allege that Landmark disclaims Erhard or a relationship with est or the Forum.

3) "Some scholars have categorized Landmark and its predecessor organizations as new age, self religion or a new religious movement." Lockwood mostly says that previous writers do not include Landmark as religious (for instance "Rarely are the boundaries of what constitutes a “religion” expanded in order to explore those groups that, though not understood to be “religious” in a traditional sense, clearly contribute to contemporary “spiritual” life.") She indirectly says that it should be percieved as religious, but she is hardly a "scholar". --Tgeairn (talk) 21:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

'''Is this a reliable source at all? Is it reliable for the sourced statements?'''
 * Not reliable - As proposer of commentary above. --Tgeairn (talk) 21:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * As there are no arguments given to support the view that this is not a reliable source, I am not able to address them. Obviously this source is reliable.
 * Ad 1. The source does support the first statement: "Finally, it is imperative to note that during its inception, the possibility of establishing est as a church was indeed considered, but its official position as an "educational corporation" eventually prevailed." (p.229)
 * Ad 2. The source does support the second statement: "Landmark Education today insists that the Landmark Forum is entirely distinct from est, claiming that it is not based on or a derivation of Werner Erhard’s original program." (p.227)
 * Ad 3. It is crystal clear that Tgeairn has not read the Lockwood article. Moreover, the statement is not controversial at all.
 * Kind regards, Theobald Tiger (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. Regarding the source itself, as I said - it is a student paper written by a graduate student, as such it is PRIMARY at best.  It is not published in citation indexes, it's DOI isn't even published..  These alone disqualify it as a reliable source, I believe (see WP:SCHOLARSHIP).  Even if not, the author herself says that she disregarded other sources that did not match her own experience (actual quote above).  As for the points, I re-read Lockwood's paper just today before preparing this.  There is a link above to read it online, and if you would like a pdf then it's available via google search (I won't link as it's a site that is hosting copyrighted content for download in avoidance of payment).
 * Ad 1: My point here is that Lockwood is taking Bartlet (her cited source) out of context. We already have Bartlet sourced in the LW article, so I see no need for this interpretation.
 * Ad 2: This still feels like a twist of terms, but I can see your logic.
 * Ad 3: The statement is not only controversial, but it is the point of the paper and it is the crux of what Arbcom has said is the locus of dispute with the LW article. Lockwood disputes Chryssides and others in their limitation of what constitutes a religious movement, and she arrives at novel interpretations from her own observation of a course she attended.
 * We can disagree on a topic, but please do not make statements such as "It is crystal clear that Tgeairn has not read the Lockwood article". Thank you, Tgeairn (talk) 23:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not only have you not read the article, as I have clearly demonstrated, but you also have not the faintest idea of what primary source actually means. The Lockwood article is not a primary source at all. It is a study and it has been published in the International Journal for the Study of New Religions, Vol 2, No 2 (2011), which is published in cooperation between the International Society for the Study of New Religions and Equinox Publishing (link). It is a refereed journal. Is has an editorial board with distinguished scholars as Susan J. Palmer, Adam Possamai, Paul Heelas, Boaz Huss among others. Theobald Tiger (talk) 09:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I would say that it is clearly not reliable, particularly as a source for the highly contentious claim that Landmark is a "Religious" organisation in any sense in which a normal reader would understand that term. Lockwood explicitly states that she is "expanding" the scope of the religious beyond its normal usage. The study is a student paper, written while she was a postgraduate and before she received a doctorate. In the four years since then, she has still not attained an academic position as far as I can see. Nor do web searches produce any evidence that she is recognised as an expert in the field, and there do not appear to be anything much in the way of citations, endorsements or commentaries on her paper.I have no idea what the acceptance criteria are for that journal, but I am not convinced that fact that they printed it confers any evidence of notability. I have read it (twice) and I don't find it a very impressive piece of work. I am sure Tgeairn knows whether he has read it or not, and it strikes me as uncivil to contradict him. DaveApter (talk) 14:16, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Civil or uncivil, the conclusion is simply inescapable. Theobald Tiger (talk) 23:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Limited Reliability as Minority View For 1) Bartlett is clearly a better source. For 2) the source isn't saying what the text is alleging, so it shouldn't be used. For 3) I think this is fair, but it's extremely critical to note that saying something is an NRM is completely distinct from calling something religious, since many scholars use a definition of an NRM that doesn't require religiosity, merely that it be something they wish to study. Lockwoocd's claim of Landmark's actual religosity is valid only as a minority view, as she acknowledges that it contradicts the claims of more noted scholars like Chryssides, and that she is clearly proposing a new theory. A new theory by a graduate student contradicting other existing scholarship is clearly a minority view. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * At first I was going to say this is a reliable source. But in reading- frankly it is hard to tell.  I think as the discussion above points out, it is not being used in a way that supports what is being said in the article.  If I understand the way this is being used in the article in the broader picture, it is to support the notion that a for profit company has religious characteristics or is a religion.  If that is the case then I don't really think the graduate paper (although quite interesting) quite adequately supports that claim either. Admittedly, I just don't understand how anyone can contend that corporations can be religions. Legally it is either one or the other so in my view this is an extraordinary claim that requires more. If my answer took this beyond the scope of what was intended- my apologies! Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * So, what (policy based) support is there for using a paper by a graduate student as a reliable source for anything - let alone for a rather contentious claim that a for-profit company is religious in nature? --Tgeairn (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that the author being a graduate student is particularly relevant. I would be more concerned to establish the nature and reputation of the journal that the article is published in. Is it peer reviewed, for example? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The paper was published in the International Journal for the Study of New Religions, which is published by the International Society for the Study of New Religions. They list an editorial board, some members of which are notable in their field.  I don't see any indication of the paper being cited by secondary sources, and the paper frequently cites "Author’s experience of the Landmark Forum, Sydney 2007" which clearly makes it (at least partially) a primary source.  --Tgeairn (talk) 19:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a relatively new journal, so its repute is still to be established, I guess. The "author's experience" citations don't really sound like the mark of a quality journal to me, though. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Adam Smith Institute
Can the following article from Adam Smith Institute be used in Gamergate controversy?. Note that it makes a contentious BLP claim therefore I am asking here. Avono (talk) 18:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I would say no, with the exception of non-self-serving claims about the institute.- MrX 18:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I will not comment on this particular source right now, but I think it is a recurrent problem of how to evaluate the reliability of things like NGOs and think tanks. WP:IRS mostly pertains to newspapers and peer-reviewed journals, but there is a universe of other sources. IRS is a guideline that defers to WP:V and WP:OR. Some things that should be ascertained:
 * Is it WP:THIRDPARTY?
 * Is it WP:SECONDARY?
 * Is the publishing organization independent of the material's author, or is it a proxy for him/her?
 * Is there a conflict of interest?
 * How is the publisher's reputation?
 * Is there use by others?
 * Does the source identify the material as news, blogging, opinion, or research?
 * Is the claim that is to be used in Wikipedia an instance of WP:BLP?

Here are some prior noticeboard discussions about think tanks: Rhoark (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What is the claim that you wish to cite from this source? (If you are not sure if you can quote it, can you point at the section and paragraph number?) --Obsidi (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Cambridge University Press and Washington Post on Islamophobia in Steven Emerson article
There is a debate on the Steven Emerson article on if two sources are reliable in claiming that Steven Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia. The sources are:

The exact quote these sources cite are

"...and has been criticized for his inaccuracies, Islamophobia (references) and for saying that..."

User:ChrisGualtieri is arguing that since the Cambridge University Press book has a footnote referencing ThinkProgress that the book is not a reliable source in this context. He further argues that the Washington Post piece is a blog and therefore not a reliable source.

As of yet, he has not been able to explain why the Washington Post piece, which was written by a paid foreign correspondence reporter for the Washington Post in their World Views published section is a Blog, but he continuously asserts that it is in fact a blog and thus not a reliable source. Please advise, are these reliable sources? Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course they are. ChrisGualtieri often questions reliable sources such as these, based on a misguided and extremely narrow interpretation of our content policies, asserting that BLPs should contain only "facts" and not opinions. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  03:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Cwobeel claims all that is required is a source for inclusion, he adds this material because he thinks that calling someone a bigot is a problem only if it is unsourced. It will take more than a label cited to "Think Progress" in a Cambridge University Press book to stick. I explained that the WaPo source should be in the body and not both in the lead to label someone a bigot. The WP:BATTLE tendencies here are repulsive and using Salon and other poor sources to directly attribute someone as a bigot and writings as a form of hate speech is unacceptable. Just because someone makes an accusation doesn't make it true or fitting for a BLP - by that logic you can go and drag up a string of nasties at almost any historic or political figure. How many times did MLK get called a nigger? Might as well reference a single sentence in Oxford and slap that on the article. It would be crude, but that is a parallel to which we see here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Could this be closed as the wrong forum. This is a BLPN issue and BLPN#Steven Emerson is still in progress? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * look at the differences above User:ChrisGualtieri, YOU were the one who SPECIFICALLY and REPEATEDLY argued that these sources were not reliable sources. The WP:BLPN is dealing with other things, but right now on this board I'm bringing up your REPEATED assertions that the Cambridge Guide to American Islam, and the Washington Post were not reliable sources.  Again, your differences and arguments are above.  Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I explained and this is a BLP issue because it labels a person as a bigot. How is that not a BLP issue? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not here to discuss that, I'm here to discuss your claims and repeated assertions (cited in differences above) that the sources themselves are not reliable. You are welcome to discuss the fact that multiple reliable sources have documented the fact that Steven Emerson is criticized for being an Islamophobe on the WP:BLPN, but HERE we are discussing your interpretation of WP:RS and your statement to me to re-read WP:IRS in reference to these two articles. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 03:58, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * And comparing Martin Luther King to Emerson is a massive stretch, and your use if the n word to illustrate your point is atrocious, to say it kindly. -  Cwobeel   (talk)  04:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

 * (Copied over) For the CC source, the line being used is it for the entire book. Not another mention or aspect of Emerson and it has to use a Think Progress source for that twisted gem. I'd be willing to consider it being a suitable source if actually discussed Emerson more than citing Think Progress which was itself cherry-picking. Obviously Emerson ain't so discredited when his group and work was being cited by the United States Congress and was cited on a panel consisted of former Ambassador Dore Gold, Steven Emerson, and Jonathan Winer in 2003. Or in mentioned cases in 2001. Official meetings in 2005. Since that "gaff" Emerson has "testified and briefed Congress dozens of times on terrorist financing and operational networks of al-Qaeda". He is a recognized expert by the United States Government A single sentence which is so thoroughly disproven by over a decade of continued work and council at the highest levels of the United States Government - discredited? Hardly. The man may make mistakes, but he is not the bigot or disgrace that trivial mention makes. Is that trivial mention in a book really acceptable to call him a bigot - when it cannot even spare a full sentence about his actual credentials? The answer is a resounding no. For the WaPo blog - it is just weak and uses Twitter to mirror it, gosh is it weak. I placed that up against the American Educational Trust and the United States Congress volumes. His work can be cited as inspiring Islamophobia, but calling the person a bigot is an issue and I agreed with the original editor who highlighted it on BLPN. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:43, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * wikipedia doesn't have a merit system when it comes to inserting sourced criticism. Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 06:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * @ChrisGualtieri: I just checked each of those linked URLs you provided; it appears you have seriously misunderstood that information when you concluded "Obviously Emerson ain't so discredited when his group and work was being cited by the United States Congress...". In reality, anyone can offer to appear or be called as a witness at a hearing by contacting a committee holding a relevant hearing, and Emerson wasn't "cited by the United States Congress", his statements were simply recorded in the Congressional Record as required by procedural law. He's not a "recognized expert by the United States Government"; he is simply whatever he claims to be, as the Committee asks him how he should be described in the record -- and much of the flowery descriptions of him in your links are word-for-word copies from his personal website profile. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Comment, while Cambridge University Press is a reliable source in and of itself, regarding the passage of the book that is cited to a non-reliable source thinkprogress, what can be verified from the reliable source is that thinkprogress says... (attributed opinion). The Washington Post does publish blogs, but generally are vetted through an editor, therefore unless a blog can be found not to be vetted, and as Washington Post is generally seen as meeting criteria set forth in WP:IRS the blog can be seen as meeting WP:NEWSBLOG. This is in no way saying these sources should be used in the article in question, just my opinion on these two potential reliable sources. BLP issues should be discussed at the appropriate noticeboard. G'day.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - I agree with RightCowLeftCoast that ThinkProgress cannot be cited in Wikipedia as a reliable source for assertion of fact, only attributed opinion. Information asserted as fact in a ThinkProgress article can't appear in a Wikipedia article unless it is first vetted by a quality reliable source, preferably an academic source. The scholarly work published by Cambridge University easily meets that requirement. Remember that we Wikipedia editors cannot use sources of lesser or unknown quality, so we depend on these higher quality academic sources to sift through all relevant information resources (even articles in ThinkProgress, primary sources, personal interviews, website data, etc.), rigorously research and vet it, and submit it for review and publication in a source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy — only then can we assert the information in Wikipedia's voice as factual. These requirements have been met by the two sources listed above; applying attribution is not required, and could actually mislead readers into thinking the factual assertion is mere opinion. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Comment - while the Cambridge University Press is considered a reliable publisher, the actual source in question, The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, is co-authored by the controversial professor of Islamic Studies, Omid Safi.   . The book mentions Emerson in passing, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe.    The same contentious material further discredits Emerson by inaccurately stating that he falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing which is an inaccurate accusation.  Emerson actually said, ``This was done with the intent to inflict as many casualties as possible, Emerson said on CBS. ``That is a Mideastern trait.  The bigoted label and false statements in RS are why the contentious statements are unacceptable per BLP.  Atsme  ☯  Consult  05:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Those sources don't demonstrate anything particularly controversial about Safi; rather, they show that his views are pretty mainstream and uncontroversial. In both cases the briefness of the mention in the source is either explicitly or implicitly alluding to other sources that have given a more in-depth discussion (eg. googling brings up Islamophobia in America: The Anatomy of Intolerance), so we could either cite Cambridge and the WaPo, or other sources. I might suggest "criticized as Islamophobic", but don't find such a change necessary. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * the actual source is in question — No, it is not — and I checked your links. My favorite was your citation to the screed against "Barack Hussein Obama" that you found by searching Google Books for "Omid Safi is anti-Semitic". You do realize that book is published by Tate Publishing & Enterprises, right? That's the vanity publisher someone goes to, and pays to publish crap, after all legitimate publishers refuse it. You cite that to discredit the oldest academic publisher in the world? That brought a smile to my face. The book mentions Emerson in passing — No, it doesn't. The description is actually cited, which means a little more than "just passing" thought went in to it. incorrectly stating that he falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing... — No, it's not incorrect. From the source you linked: It looked to him like the work of Muslim terrorists, he said. Ooops? He also said, "Oklahoma City, I can tell you, is probably considered one of the largest centers of Islamic radical activity outside the Middle East." Maybe he was talking about those Jewish-Hawaiian Islamic radicals, not the Muslim ones; I guess I won't know until you produce a full transcript. But the source you provided supports the book, rather than show it was incorrect. Xenophrenic (talk) 06:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but the "oldest academic publisher in the world" published a book that was co-authored by a controversial professor of Islamic studies who inaccurately stated what Emerson said. I can't see how that could possibly be acceptable in a BLP.  It was passing mention using a (not very collegiate) bigoted slur describing Emerson as an Islamophobe, and further defames him with an incorrect statement - the discredited "terrorism expert" who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma city bombings committed by Timothy McVeigh, citing Think Progress as their source.  Forget the smile I brought to your face - that book should bring tears to your eyes.  Watch the Emerson interview and read the transcript from that 20 year old CBS interview so you'll at least know what he said.  As for your criticism of the sources I used, it brought a smile to my face.  Have a good evening.  Atsme  ☯  Consult  08:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted, Atsme. The book was co-authored by more than a dozen professors you mean, and you've failed to show that any of them are "controversial" (not that it would matter), and you've failed to point to an "inaccurate" statement with evidence as to why it is supposedly inaccurate. And the text we're discussing isn't "citing Think Progress as their source", it is citing an article by a reporter which was published there, and itself contains numerous additional reference citations - so we're still left waiting for you to explain a policy-compliant objection. Still waiting. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Books, academics, op-eds and blocks blogs are reliable sources for their own opinions, which seems to be the main dispute here. As long as you clearly report and attribute opinions in the text (not a footnote) and the opinion is otherwise notable and part of balance balanced coverage, I don't think it is helps the editorial discussion to delve into reliability any more deeply. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hrothulf, we aren't discussing any of those, so you have misunderstood the main dispute. We're discussing the Cambridge Companion to American Islam (you'll see it linked at the top of this section), which is a reliable source for the assertion of fact.  Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * CCAI is a "book", written by an "academic". The post page is an op-ed or blog; I am not sure which. So I stand by my earlier point that the reliability or not (of CCAI and the Post) is not relevant to the sentence you want in the article. If we set aside the reliability of the articles, their editors and their authors, which I believe we can, Xenophrenic and Atsme should be able to have a civilized discussion about relevance and balance. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Incorrect on both counts,, which leaves me wondering if you've even bothered to look at the two sources we are discussing. The Cambridge Companion to American Islam textbook was compiled by 22 scholars, and vetted by the academic Cambridge University Press. As explained by our Identifying Reliable Sources policy, "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources" for the assertion of fact (not merely "their own opinions"). You say you can't tell if the Washington Post article is an op-ed or a blog, which means you also can't tell if it is either. Allow me to help: it's neither. It's an article published in their news blog section, by a reporter on the staff of the Washington Post, under the full editorial control of the Washington Post, and our policy says that is a reliable source for the assertion of fact. (This is easily verified at the WaPo site in their /blogs section.) The text being cited, "...and has been criticized for his inaccuracies, Islamophobia (references) and for saying that...", is supported as written (barring the production of equally reliable sources refuting that information, of course - but that has not happened yet). Attempting to misrepresent an assertion of fact as a mere opinion, as you suggest, would be against policy. If the original poster, , and Atsme would like to have a discussion about relevance and balance, they can; my interest only pertains to the reliability of cited sources. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

There actually was a quite lengthy and detailed exchange on this very subject on my TP:  Atsme  ☯  Consult  21:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Somalis in the United Kingdom
There are a couple of debates going on at the talk page for Somalis in the United Kingdom, one on education statistics and situation of Somalis in 2004? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This is the material I have suggested adding to the article, based on that source: "In the mid 2000s, research showed completed education within the Somali community to be low. For instance, in 2005 the Institute for Public Policy Research published analysis of Labour Force Survey data for the period 2000-04, and found that, of Somali-born immigrants who had arrived between 1990 and 2004 (who made up 761 of 812 Somali-born people in the sample), 50.1 per cent had no qualification and 2.8 per cent had higher qualifications". Cordless Larry (talk) 08:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * While we're at it, I'd also like views on whether this Economist article can be appropriately used as a source on British Somalis' educational one on use of religion data from the 2001 census. One editor is claiming that historical data can't be used about these topics, as the sources provide data on a previous time period, and in some cases there is more recent data available. He's citing WP:SCHOLARSHIP and claiming that the sources are dated. Can I get a view on this? Mine is that it's fine to include historical data based on reliable sources, as long as it's not presented as if it represents the situation in 2015. Several different sources are being discussed, but to give an example, is it appropriate to use this one to present data on the educational status. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The editor above has been trying to add statistical data on educational qualifications and religious affiliation from as far back as 14 years ago to the page. This material was originally phrased in the present tense, evidently with the intent to suggest that it represented the current situation. All of this material is also contradicted by newer data, including a 2010 education study that the editor had himself originally linked to and newer data on religious affiliation. The editor has queried on various venues and sought a third opinion; this is the third venue where this same material has been posted, reaching the limit of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Several other editors besides myself explained to him that it is inappropriate to use old statistics to reflect the current situation when newer stats are available. The editor subsequently insisted that he just wanted to cite some of this old data in an historical context, although I explained to him that the figures were contradicted even at the time of their publication by other data. Just as an example, a 2002 Africa Education Trust and London Learning and Skills Council report indicates that: "In general the Somali community are highly educated. Approximately half had completed secondary education and a further fifth of those interviewed had completed university. Most Somalis had attended education or training courses in the UK and over half had done a course at FE or HE level. Most Somali women had accessed education or training in the UK." The Economist editorial he links to above likewise does not identify from where it culled its purported nationwide education figure. By contrast, the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no such nationwide statistics are in fact available, nor is the size of the student population indeed even known . As the editor also indicated that he had a different interpretation of the term "outdated" in WP:SCHOLARSHIP's stipulation that "some scholarly material may be outdated, in competition with alternative theories, or controversial within the relevant field[...] try to cite present scholarly consensus when available, recognizing that this is often absent", one of the other editors explained that outdated means that the data has been superceded by more recent information. Middayexpress (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I won't comment on this account of my behaviour other than to suggest that people visit Talk:Somalis in the United_Kingdom and judge for themselves, and to say I'm not aware of anyone on that page who has disagreed with me, apart from Middayexpress. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, just on the point about the use of the present tense: I think I was clear with my original edits what time period the data was from. Of course, suggestions for better phrasing are always welcome. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, that's not quite true. There's Inayity, AcidSnow on his page, and Maunus on what "outdated" data actually means, for starters. Neil also doesn't seem to disagree that newer figures supercede the older ones. At any rate, I invite you to identify for the first time there just where exactly that Economist piece got its WP:REDFLAG figure from, and why it conflicts with the actual, official government figures. Middayexpress (talk) 20:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Inayity said: "But if something is 10 years old, it obviously has problems in stat terms in the context of this article. I guess you could state the period in which it was accurate and that would fix that problem". Stating the period in which the data was accurate is precisely what I'm proposing to do with the IPPR LFS data - see my suggested wording on the talk page. AcidSnow does appear to agree with you, but Maunus is saying that the data you're citing is not a more recent equivalent of the IPPR data. I don't think it's my job to do research into where the Economist got their data from. There is partial data for the UK, so presumably it's that. Your demands all sound a bit WP:OR to me though. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed: "if something is 10 years old, it obviously has problems in stat terms in the context of this article". Also see below. Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * And the rest of the quote, where Inayity suggests a solution to that problem? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * See his latest clarification below. And yes, per WP:REDFLAG, it certainly does matter where that piece got its figure from. Especially since that number conflicts with the official government local authority figures; it is literally half that of some of them ("any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources[...] red flags that should prompt extra caution include: surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"). Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Given the wide variation in GCSE results across the country, it's not all surprising that there's a difference between a national figure and results for Camden schools alone. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The economist is a reliable source. The article is not an editorial. Spumuq (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not whether the news outlet The Economist itself is reliable that is the question, but rather whether that specific article is. It does not indicate from where it derived its WP:REDFLAG nationwide education figure. This is perhaps not surprising since the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no reliable nationwide statistics are in fact available, nor is the size of the student population indeed even known . Local authorities such as the Camden Education Commission likewise indicate an altogether different, higher figure . Middayexpress (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * And I have to remark while BBC or the economist might be RS in principle we do have take a case-by-case approach. B/c if they are quoting stats without a source it is a problem. And with the volume of nonsense you read in these "respectable" places we need to be careful.--Inayity (talk) 20:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification, User:Inayity. Note that several independent reviews indicate that the piece is factually inacurate in several aspects (e.g. ). What do you make of that review? Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * On a side note this is something which vexes me about Wikipedia. Often so-called RS source talk a lot of nonsense but the communities rebuttal is silenced from Wiki b/c it fails RS. I am dealing with this issue all the time. The African American community goes crazy at something but those voices are from grassroots org etc. But I feel i digress. --Inayity (talk) 20:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I actually think that's very relevant, Inayity. I'm more than happy to cite the Economist article and then cite articles such as the one Middayexpress suggests, noting that they contest the characterisation in the Economist article. I think that's a better approach than trying to find the one, "true" source. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Although I should also say that this community source, which predates the Economist article, features the exact same GCSE statistics. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a better source, but it doesn't identify the original examination that it was taken from either. Which governmental body administered the examination(s), if any, and when? Both the Camden Council and Tower Hamlets local administrations report GCSEs over twice as high. In 2012, the official GCSE stats in Camden schools were a full 37 percentage points higher (page 13 ). Middayexpress (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't really suggesting it as an alternative source, just pointing out that not all Somali community groups disagree with the figures in the Economist article. I'm not sure it is a better source though - it gives no indication of data sources, whereas the charts in the Economist article do at least state the ONS as a source. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The Economist piece does not indicate that its GCSE figure was taken from the ONS. It doesn't identify any governmental body as the source of its figure. For the same reason, there's no telling where the other organization got its figure from. What's certain is that it wasn't inspired by that Economist piece, as it predates it by several months. In fact, pretty much the entire community takes umbrage at the piece . Thus, what there is here is a redflag figure of uncertain derivation, which to boot is contradicted (and by a substantial margin at that) by the very government bodies that actually administer the GCSE examinations. Middayexpress (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, good point Inayity. In this instance, it's a pretty clear WP:REDFLAG fail. The piece doesn't even bother identifying where it culled its figure from, which is literally half that of the official government figures. Compare it, for example, with the Camden Education Commission's different, much higher figure for 2011 . Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem with pointing to Camden though, is that it's just one London borough, and not necessarily representative of the UK as a whole, or indeed London (see figure 2 of this source, which makes it clear how widely Somali pupils' GCSE performance varies across London). It's perfectly possible that Somali pupils do well in Camden but not that well nationally. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit report uses a series of case studies at various London schools to represent the Somali student community as a whole. It concludes that the overall attainment of Somali pupils is rising and is directly related to a number of factors including mobility and especially relative command of English ("the evidence is that once Somali children reach a competent level of English, they forge ahead in their learning and can reach the highest standards" ). Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea. How about, rather than using the Economist source for the GSCE figures, we use this? It's not UK-wide in its coverage, but it does cover England (with some caveats that we could note). It happens to give a figure of 33.2 per cent 5 A*–C grades at GCSE for 2010-11, which is the same as the Economist. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That paper may perhaps be where that Economist piece got its figure from, but there's no way of knowing for sure since it is doesn't indicate this. The paper includes a caveat that its data is not robust. In its Table 6.1, it also compares the data against the 2003 England mean rather than the contemporaneous 2011 one. Hence, its inconsistency with the local authority data, and extreme scores for certain student groups like Portuguese and Yemeni (over 40 percentage points below the England mean?). For Camden schools, the official data for a number of these student populations is instead substantially higher (66% GSCE in 2011 and 70% GSCE in 2012 for Somali pupils ). Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Where does it say that it's comparing with the 2003 mean? The table looks like it compares the 2010-11 figures for Somalis with the 2010-11 mean to me, but I'm happy to be corrected. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's in the table's second column ("Mean % difference from England mean, 2003, excluding maths and English GCSE"). The England mean is unchanged because it is from the same year, 2003. Middayexpress (talk) 00:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Are we looking at the same table (6.1)? It's in the column headed "Mean % difference from England mean, 2010–2011, including maths and English GCSE"! Cordless Larry (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that looks like the column. It's strange how Portuguese and Yemeni are over 40 percentage points below the England mean in that Table 6.1, yet the paper offers no explanation for this. It also says that it collected the data from the local authorities that actually administered the exams. These single GCSE percentages are thus not in fact official government averages, but rather averages that the authors themselves later tabulated through some obscure process. This would explain the wide discrepancy between these figures and the actual official local authority figures (e.g. ). Middayexpress (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * There are quite a lot of other sources that confirm that Portuguese and Yemeni pupils are amongst the poorest performing, so I don't think that's inconsistent. The wide discrepancy is between a national figure calculated by Rutter, and a figure for Camden - i.e. one London borough. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not just Camden, obviously. Many other local authorities -- which actually administer the exams -- report official GCSE results substantially higher than that of the IPPR's unofficial, interpreted average. For Tower Hamlets, where almost 80% of Somalis in the UK live, the local authority reports that in 2011-2012, 58% of Somali students achieved five or more A*–Cs grades at GCSE in subjects including English and Maths. This was slightly above the overall average. The girls were actually much higher than the average, at 70%; the boys were closer to the overall GCSE average at 49%. Middayexpress (talk) 16:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The nature of an average is that some individual areas will be above it and others below it. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And the official GCSE average in 2011-2012 for the largest concentration of Somali students is slightly above the overall average. Middayexpress (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Its sounds like some individuals are drawing their own conclusions WP:OR. Regardless of academic performance in one London Borough, only figures that relate to overall national performance can be used.  A situation similar to that of Somalis is that of South Asian communities, communities in the north of England are far less wealthy and educated compared to those in the South East of England.  As a result the relatively high academic performance of Bangladeshis in London Tower Hamlets is masked by the lower academic performance of their ethnic peers in places like Bradford and Leicester.  The economic strength of the South East of England no doubt plays a part in this, but lower national figures are the result.  Actually the same pattern can be observed for Caucasians incidentally. Nograviti (talk) 07:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I agree that only national figures should be used. We can note the London figures as well (the sources seem clearly reliable to me), but it would seem odd to rely on figures for London alone, when there is data that covers other parts of the UK (even if the coverage is not complete and the figures are subject to caveats). The point you make about variation across the country is a good one - that's what I was getting at with my comment about averages, a few posts up. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That is not a comparable situation since ~80% of South Asians in the UK do not live in one local authority as Somalis do. That IPPR data also is not official; the authors tabulated their own average from different local authorities. However, the local authorities themselves indicate an altogether different GCSE. The Tower Hamlets GCSE, by the way, is not OR. It's the local authority's official GCSE data from its Achievement Statistics for 2011-2012. Middayexpress (talk) 16:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you point me to evidence that around 80 per cent of Somalis live in one local authority area? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, but given this is an article on Somalis nationally, the emphasis should be on national data. But I don't see a problem with highlighting data from specific areas in the country, but there should be a caveat pointing out that the results are for specific local area and may not be indicative of results across the country.Nograviti (talk) 09:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed, although the IPPR data is for England, not the whole of the UK, but it appears to be the best we have. I've seen a source for Wales somewhere too, so will have a look for that. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no such nationwide GCSE stats for Somali students are in fact available . The IPPR's unofficial, interpreted figure for England (not the UK) is thus certainly not the best GCSE figure. It also just so happens to be almost half that of the official GCSE figure for Tower Hamlets, where most Somalis in the UK actually reside. Middayexpress (talk) 16:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, everyone accepts that no UK-wide data is available, I think. Given that, the IPPR's attempt to produce an average for England, with all its caveats, is the most comprehensive we have. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That makes no difference since the IPPR figure is still not the official government GCSE stat. It is instead an unofficial average of the local authority GCSE data that the IPPR authors themselves tabulated. Given this, the official GCSEs from the local authorities with the largest Somali students populations are the actual next best thing after an official nationwide GCSE average for them. Middayexpress (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * There's nothing about WP:RS that says we can't use "unofficial" (by which I presume you mean not government) sources. If we had data from all of the local authorities that IPPR had collected data from, I might agree with you, but we only have it from a few London ones, like Camden and Lambeth. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:59, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The IPPR's unofficial calculations from official local authority data are not infallible, as it itself concedes elsewhere (page 19 ). Besides Camden and Lambeth, there's also Tower Hamlets, a local authority that alone accounts for almost 80% of Somalis in the nation. That's certainly more representative and official at that. Middayexpress (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you provide me a source for that 80 per cent figure? It's at odds with the statistics in the article itself. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:33, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Midday, you must be mistaken. The 2011 census only recorded just under 3,000 Somali-born people in Tower Hamlets, out of more than 100,000 in the UK. See here. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's only the number that reported they lived there; it doesn't capture everyone. In actuality, almost 80% of Somalis in the UK indeed mainly reside in Tower Hamlets . Middayexpress (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but a Powerpoint presentation hardly qualifies as a reliable source. If that were true, there are tens of thousands of Somalis in Tower Hamlets who have been completely missed by the census. Seems a bit unlikely given that the population of the borough is only 250,000. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's a detailed study of the Tower Hamlets population that concludes that there were 4,600 Somalis there in 2010. That makes much more sense. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The file format doesn't really matter, but I think you may be right. The proportion is apparently instead for London as a whole. Middayexpress (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I didn't express that very well. It's not the file format, just that it's a presentation that's been put online without it being checked for accuracy. It sounds likely that that figure is indeed for London as a whole (otherwise there are a whole lot of Somalis hiding in Tower Hamlets somewhere!). Cordless Larry (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Understood. Middayexpress (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I was about the add one of the largest well known concentrations of Somalis in London is in Somers Town in Camden. But it seems like you have already confirmed the hard data Larry.  Midday please keep to actual data instead of conjecture and WP:OR.  Also the discussion is not on whether the IPPR article is bulletproof, the issue is whether it forms the best basis for national data on Somalis, everyone except for you is of the opinion that it is Nograviti (talk) 07:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, there's nothing conjectural about those official Tower Hamlets GCSE figures (which, in any event, weren't adressed to you and don't concern Nigerians). Since you are here presumably because of the Nigerian GCSEs, you should also be aware that the head of the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit already published nationwide GCSE data in 2013 for various populations. And as expected, here too the official figures don't jibe with the IPPR's unofficial calculations . Middayexpress (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think Nograviti was referring to your 80 per cent of Somalis point, not the GCSE figures, with that comment about conjecture. The IPPR and Demie data can't really be directly compared, because they refer to different years and one uses ethnicity data and one language data. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:13, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Larry, Yes I was referring to the 80% point. Also midday please see my talk page to understand my motivations here on WPNograviti (talk) 08:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It says there that your main goal was to have recent data which shows the academic achievements of British Nigerians. I hope that's indeed all there is to it; I really do. Middayexpress (talk) 16:34, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Stitch Kingdom
This source is being used in the article Klaw (Marvel Comics) to state that Andy Serkis will be playing the character in an upcoming movie. We were attempting to discuss this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics, but since Adamstom.97 claimed that "the discussion concerning this is going nowhere" he reverted and put the source back in the article. Is this a reliable source for this claim? 2601:D:B480:ED2:B1FE:426A:B8FA:EA58 (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I would like to point out that the source is also being used in the articles Avengers: Age of Ultron and List of Marvel Cinematic Universe film actors, and that the discussion really wasn't going anywhere anytime soon, which wouldn't be a problem (as we are in no rush) if it wasn't causing consistincy issues with these other articles. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:11, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

"Bellingcat"
I know that this board isn't meant to be used to address general source reliability, but I was wonder if any of my esteemed colleagues that frequent this board could comment on a website called "Bellingcat". Queer name, if I've ever heard one. It is a relatively new website, and largely seems to be the project of one fellow, a Mr Brown Moses. It seems to be a form of original research, activist blogging. I can't seem to find any evidence of reliability accorded to it by RS. This question came up when an editor attempted to add information from this Bellingcat "report" to our article on the Battle of Mariupol. I cannot trace its reliability, at all. I'm especially concerned by the fact that it is written by a one "Pieter van Huis", who the site says "is based in the Netherlands and is currently finishing his university studies". Kyiv Post, which I generally consider reliable, mentioned the report. KP says that Bellingcat is a "renowned open-source investigative group", but I find that odd, as it is a fairly new "group" (launched on 1 July in the prior summer), and not mentioned by any RS. I'd never heard of it until now. KP also says "Despite verbal and written requests to the General Prosecutor’s office, the Kyiv Post was not able to ascertain the status of the official investigation into the May 9 shootings". The lack of the official investigation report is also very concerning. Anyway, what do you fellows think? I personally don't think it is RS. It seems too shaky. RGloucester — ☎ 23:36, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat is often cited in RS, as for example in the guardian last july on mh-17mh17  , he has been profiled in The New Yorker rocket man, a speaker at the Frontline Club,the changing face of news gathering,   and - Bellingcat, though still quite new has attracted attention , as for example here    -,  - he is already a respected  citizen investigative journalist - is Bellingcat a RS ? if one were an  Assad regime supporter, or Putinist one would frantic denigrate it and say, its not a RS, but then that's from a pov that regards LifeNews and SANa and RT reliable, so what would that be  worth ?, otherwise ,  - I think it should be regarded as a RS, its a team, not one person now,  - 'a Bellingcat study  said ...' such and such, -  should be fine. bloody hell when one thinks how painstaking and scrupulous bellingcat reports are, wp should be  asking itself - is it  of its caliber , or even close, not the other way round really Sayerslle (talk) 01:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * We have a page about Eliot Higgins, founder and one of Bellingcat authors. Based on info/sources on his page, he looks like a more or less reputable journalist. So, I think this source may deserve some credibility. My very best wishes (talk) 02:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * He may well be, but it seems like he has political motives. What's more, this particular report is sourced to a student that is "finishing his university studies". RGloucester  — ☎ 02:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * One must be careful, however this particular publication looks like a good and detailed investigative report to me. BTW, this former student edited here, on-wiki a few years ago and looked as a reasonable contributor, which does not affect credibility of his article though.My very best wishes (talk) 04:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Having an article about someone, or saying they're a journalist, doesn't mean a source they write in is automatically reliable. We have a whole list of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, but that doesn't mean any of them should be used as reliable sources. Shii (tock) 02:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't have an article on the author, only on the founder of the blog. It is fairly obvious that this isn't an RS report. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about the web site, but the 'queer name' may be a reference to the phrase Belling the cat. Daveosaurus (talk) 04:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I've seen it being used as an RS on quite a number of articles surrounding current events, and have been wanting to query it myself. Being started by a notable, as we know, does not make any committees, think tanks or publications the notable is attached to inherently notable (or reliable). It certainly doesn't make any 'journalist' published there RS, just self-professed. At the very least, if anything is to be used in an article, it should require WP:INTEXT attribution, as well as being open to being challenged or discussed on the article's talk page. Not sure = probably not RS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

 * I think the operative question is whether the site exercises enough editorial control to be considered a third-party publisher. Rhoark (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Every indication I've found points to yes. I'm beginning to suspect this might be the most reliable source in existence. [] Rhoark (talk) 21:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how the article you've pointed to (an obscure, blog-like online journal using an article by an equally obscure 'journalist'!?) demonstrates your contention. I'm pleased for you that you're convinced that it's the ultimate RS, but you've demonstrated nothing other than establishing that you believe that your opinion qualifies as an empirical truth. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Ultimately, I do not think claims by this "Bellingcat" should be used unless reported elsewhere and verified. I think it is very shaky. I know that I'll lose any battle to remove it from the article in question, but the reality is that this isn't RS in the slightest. I'm sure it serves its purpose, but it should not be the basis for encylopaedia articles. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * what do you mean 'verified'? -it was reported elsewhere - the kyivpost - and you atill complained, - now it has to be 'verified' - what does that mean? Sayerslle (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it is obvious. If you are not aware, I might direct you to WP:V and WP:RS. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * well the Kyiv post 'verified' it was worth reading.  bt you set up a yawp didn't yu so I got confused what you meant by verified. and then you said they didn't 'verify' the report, merely reported it - and I lost the will to live - imo wp articles should lead readers to  interesting information, via RS yes, which the kyivpost  is, -  but obviously 'some RS are more  equal than others' in your world. its like 'did the kyivpost verify that it was 'the truth'? - well, no - so what? they published an article about it - its an RS - full stop. Sayerslle (talk) 01:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting information that is not picked up by an RS other than Kyiv Post is of suspicious character. Keep in mind that KP, once again, confirmed that none of it was verifiable. Note that WP:V is a policy. It is not our job to point people to "interesting" information, but to verifiable information. RGloucester  — ☎ 02:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 'verifiability means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source' - well, I guess its at a remove, but at least readers of wp can verify that a RS is happy to report the findings of bellingcat - in a sane  editing environment that would count for  much, the KP not as suspicious of the  originators of the information as 'RGloucester' is - so rgloucester is a better 'gatekeeper'  for what should be read than the KP ? I interpret the policy different to you -  and please don't tell me I don't understand the policy then, because that's  all too possible -  I keep it simple in my head - the KP report covers this investigation - fine , I stop there  -Sayerslle (talk) 02:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not how it works. What is RS or not changes on the basis of what is reported, which is exactly why this board exists. RGloucester  — ☎ 02:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * right - so the editorial board at the KP lost their minds to touch the bellingcat report?  I doubt it Sayerslle (talk) 02:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You need to look closer. What we have here is the Columbia_Journalism_Review, an absolutely top-tier reliable source on the journalism industry, describing how Bellingcat has taken investigative journalism and fact-checking to unprecedented levels. It's a game-changer. Rhoark (talk) 05:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not what that says. It may be "revolutionary" in the way it does things, but that doesn't make it reliable in Wikipedia's terms. Twitter has been considered "revolutionary" too, but we don't use that as a source. The way it does "fact-checking" is through analysing YouTube videos, which by most standards isn't fact-checking at all. RGloucester  — ☎ 05:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 'Yet he consistently identified which weapons were being used by which side (or rebel group) through the meticulous appraisal of photographs, satellite images, and YouTube videos, and the use of social media to seek information when he was uncertain -  I've noticed with you when you take against something you unscrupulously twist things- ('unarmed protestors' - it is there, listen yu deaf person 'it is there' it is there' -  - no , it wasn't , it wasn't me who was deaf) - what on earth are you about? ) Sayerslle (talk) 11:17, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * All information at some point originates with a primary source. Wikipedia relies on secondary sources to identify and fact-check the relevant primary sources. Secondary sources are not required to even name their sources, though its clearly better for the purpose of verifiability if they do. Anyway, we have
 * *third-party
 * *published
 * *editorial oversight
 * *reputation for fact checking
 * *use by others
 * *no identified conflict of interest
 * Except for special situations such as medical claims, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find a way in which Bellingcat does not fulfill what is asked for by WP:RS or WP:V Rhoark (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What editorial oversight? It is a university student analysing Youtube videos, in this case. Anyone can do that. There is no clear "editorial oversight" of any kind. As far as "unarmed protesters", that's not what I was concerned with. I was concerned with the removal of the phrase all together, when it was sourced. If there was an inaccuracy in the sentence, fix it. Do not wholesale remove sourced content and start weaselling around what it says. This is typical. "Meticulous use of social media" does not constitute RS. RGloucester  — ☎ 15:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

 * so again RGloucester saying 'there is no editorial oversight of any kind' - is a slurring over things -  and 'Anyone can do that ' - is claptrap - if anyone can get profiled by the new Yorker,  interviewed and quoted by masses of Rs - raise 49,000   to get bellingcat going -  as if Kyiv post would print the results of the latest investigation if  just anyone said ' I've looked at some youtube vids' - not 'anyone' - drivel Sayerslle (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Show me an English-speaking world-based establishment source that cites this particular report from Bellingcat, and the'll I'll concede. Untill then, it is unverifiable and non-RS in as far as I'm concerned. Of course, one thing that quote does make clear is that this Bellingcat is a "blog" or "amateur reporting", neither of which belong here. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 'You’ve managed to overcome this perception through your scrupulousness and record of accuracy' - anyhow it is at least mentioned on the article page this investigation via KP, as it deserves to be, so  whatever,  for now - Sayerslle (talk) 17:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you explain why these claim have not appeared in mainstream Anglophone RS? Can you explain why there is no trace of the official investigation, and why KP acknowledged that fact? Can you acknowledge that a university student who was nowhere near Mariupol at the time of the incident in question (or ever) has no grounds for determining anything about what happened there? RGloucester  — ☎ 17:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * the story has moved on for mainstream Anglophone RS - they don't care, its old history - why would they return to it ? its a specialist concern kind of thing - why isn't the fact that Kyiv pOst thought it noteworthy  of any import to you at all? - like you are a better judge than the Kyiv post? - who indeed are on the spot in Ukraine, whilst you are not, but you set yourself up as the mandarin of all good judgment - absurd- the official investigation will emerge when it will , its utterly irrelevant to this investigation, and lastly, of course  being on the spot is not the be all and end all -  eliot Higgins  on Syria and ukraine and MH-17 has been quoted at great length by RS for his great insight and has never set foot in Syria or Ukraine -he didn't write this  in-depth study but he oversaw it and - well, etc ,  of course this painstaking analysis can have things to offerSayerslle (talk) 18:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Painstaking"? Are you sure you don't work for this Bellingcat? You seem to be their number-one promoter. RGloucester  — ☎ 18:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * what would you call it? a 'slapdash' investigation? are you sure you don't work against this belingcat? you seem to be their number one denigrator. Sayerslle (talk) 18:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I demand adherence to the words of establishment mainstream anglophone reliable sources, as is necessary and demanded by our policies. This blog is clearly attempting to overthrow the establishment with its emphasis on the demos, and that simply cannot be tolerated.  RGloucester  — ☎ 18:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The phrases "blog" and "amateur reporting" were being used of Higgins' efforts before starting a professional publication. Even then, he was highly respected. Bellingcat has less of a track record than Higgins himself, but evidence is he exerts personal oversight over contributors. It meets all the requirements at WP:RS with flying colors, has an outstanding reputation for fact checking, and is frequently used by other reliable sources.        I'm sorry that wasn't the answer you were looking for. Rhoark (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think some of those RS mentioned above are actually not RS. The Daily Mail for one, probably some others. But the point stands. Geogene (talk) 02:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Bellingcat seems to be a blog of amateur journalists, yet on a few occasions it has been referenced by RS, including The Guardian,. I'd suggest that where one of its reports is referenced favorably by RS, that report be considered RS, and otherwise Bellingcat content should be treated as a non-RS blog. If its reputation continues to grow, and we get some insight into its editorial control, then we can revisit it later. Geogene (talk) 02:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with this, which is what I've been saying. If a report by this "Bellingcat" appears in an establishment source, then it that report is notable. Otherwise, it is just a blog. A rubbish rag of discontented youths that has no place in the realm of learned men. In the particular case I've referenced, it has made no such appearance in establishment sources. RGloucester  — ☎ 00:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Now your objection is to the author's age? Rhoark (talk) 22:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ' a rubbish rag of discontented youths' ? - ffs - more like active, mature minds, a decade or so past school or college but not thank Christ having fallen away into the 'sere, the yellow leaf'  and decaying grips on reality. Sayerslle (talk) 23:59, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Ahmad Keshvari
In the Ahmad Keshvari deletion discussion, which of these sources can be used to reliably establish the notability of Iranian pilot Ahmad Keshvari?
 * "Simorgh TV series: In 1992, Iranian television made a series that was about pilots of the western war zone such as Ali Akbar Shiroodi, Ahmad Keshvari, and Soheilian." (cited by User:AliAkar and User:Mhhossein)
 * "Flight Wing is the name of the book that reflects the life of Ahmad Keshvari which presented at the 26th Tehran International Book Fair." (cited by User:AliAkar) (presumable description of book)

--Anders Feder (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you need to provide more information. Was the TV series a documentary, or fiction based on real life events? Are there specific episodes entirely about the subject, or was the subject's name merely mentioned. The second source does not seem to be at all useful for establishing notability.- MrX 18:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you provide the information requested?--Anders Feder (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read the Wikipedia rules (WP:SOLDIER). The TV series was an documentary bout Ahmad Keshvari life from born to death. All the film and not an episode is about him and you can see him and his name in the all the time. In addition to he was an Iranian general and according ti Wikipedia rules, generals have notability.AliAkar (talk) 08:14, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * No, generals do not have notability according to any Wikipedia rules, as explained here. Also, this is the reliability noticeboard. It is not notability that is being discussed. It is the (lack of) reliability of the sources you cite.--Anders Feder (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Is an artist's own work not a reliable source on the artist?
Artist James Peck documenting his return home, I would normally not use a personal blog for a source but this was never going to be front page news. Is the revert of an WP:SPS not just a little over the top, if ever there was an example of WP:IAR this would be a good one. WCM email 14:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Considering it is self-published and apparently pertains to controversies that involve the author, I would not consider it a reliable source. It does seem like a very appropriate external link.

 * Read the section of policy titled Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves. This would appear to qualify since Peck is otherwise notable. In other words, the self-published source is not the only reason for the article but does provide relevant information about the subject from the subject.--GodBlessYou2 (talk) 18:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Citing a podcast to write an article about a podcast
Hi - I am attempting to create a new article about a podcast. The only source of information I have about the podcast is the podcast itself and 1 or 2 mentions in other podcasts on the web. Is this enough to create a Wikipedia article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgreenberg52 (talk • contribs)

 * Based on that description alone, such an article likely would not meet notability and/or verifiability standards. — ATinySliver / ATalkPage 09:18, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Mexican Demographics
According to the 1921 census in Mexico (the last official census to account for race), the population was stated as being 9.8% white, 60% mestizo, 30% native. In terms of modern references, there are a couple. The CIA World Factbook states that the population is now 9% white, 60% mestizo, and 30% either predominantly amerindian or amerindian. While, Britannica states the population is around two-thirds mestizo, a little over one-sixth for amerindian, and a little under one-sixth for white. Note, that Britannica is ambiguous in its phraseology, and does not give the specific numbers. So, given that we have a primary source (the last recorded census) of 1921, that is backed by a modern secondary source such as the CIA World Factbook, which modern source should feature greater exposure, such as for the chart in this section titled 'Racial and ethnic composition in Mexico ' (which currently reflects the britannica source, which is only one source that is not corroborated and contains ambiguity).

census, see page 63

CIA World Factbook

Britannica

I would say that given we have a contemporary secondary source, the CIA World Factbook, backed by the primary census, the Mexican census, it makes more sense to place more weight on the calculations of those 2, rather than a single tertiary sources like Britannica, and so the data in the article should be updated to reflect the former 2. Technically, the 17.5 and 16.5 numbers were just made up here in the chart, as the exact numbers are not provided by britannica. That does not sound reliable. Alon12 (talk) 20:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

wargs.com
Is wargs.com a reliable source for genealogies of Donald Trump, the Marx Brothers etc.? (169 hits for it in articles per Wikipedia search function). is from the Quentin Tarantino BLP. from the Jim Gilmore BLP among a host of others. Thanks. Collect (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)   Collect (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

 * wargs.com is the web site that curates the work of the late William Addams Reitwiesner. Although Reitwiesner was not a professional genealogist, some googling around shows his work is highly respected and frequently cited in books and other media. I'd say it can be used with the standard caveats. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:36, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * A number of them are specifically noted as drafts, however. Make a difference?
 * Yes, it does make a difference. Definitely do not cite any thing marked as a draft... it is quite common for drafts (even drafts of highly reliable sources) to contain inaccurate information which is later corrected in the final version.   Blueboar (talk) 20:20, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * WAR habitually cited his unprinted output as drafts (like any careful genealogist who reports and relies on BLPs in his work), even decades after he'd ceased conducting active research on a line of descent; that did not prevent him from eventually citing it publicly or uploading it to his website, nor prevent otherwise highly reliable sources from publishing excerpts and summaries of his work. Generally and in practice, his reputation was such that once he reported genealogical findings (though not necessarily other dicta) online or in interviews, it was treated as of reliably professional quality. FactStraight (talk) 12:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure its reliability is even relevant. This information on non-notable ancestors of any given person is unencyclopedic. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:52, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As Short Brigade Harvester Boris said, Reitwiesner's work is highly respected and frequently cited by others. It is not unencyclopedic to include the names of non-notable ancestors of a given person as part of an ahnentafel. Saying more about them would be, but mentioning them in an ahnentafel is no more unencylcopedic than naming the non-notable parents of a celebrity, which is common practice on Wikipedia. Bobby Martnen (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree. While I'm not a huge fan of naming non-notable parents either, distant ancestors clearly have little relevance to the life of the person being profiled. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * If I may give an anecdotal example re: non-notable parents, and I know this isn't main point,but there are times when it's helpful. For instance, if a person migrated to a new country and had their name changed, it might be help in getting their birth name if you knew the names of their parents (provided they weren't changed as well). Several editors are starting work on an Israeli archaeologist's new article. He was born in Poland though and so his current name is unlikely his birth name and we can't seem to find what his name was before his family moved to Israel. Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 22 Shevat 5775 06:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

BBC documentary in Lewis Carroll
BBC documentary The Secret World of Lewis Carroll. Broadcast BBC 1 31 Jan 2015. url. Attempted to be used in Lewis Carroll. Words to the effect of "In a 2015 BBC programme The Secret World of Lewis Carroll experts indicated their belief that a photograph of a naked teenage girl was the oldest Liddell girl Lorina, and was the work of Dodgson. The programme speculated that this was the possible cause of the break in the relationship between him and the Liddell family." Editors against its inclusion contend that THIS documentary is not a RS, or that ALL BBC documentaries are not RSs.
 * its possible to watch until  March 1 or 2,  2015, the BBC documentary, on the I-player link above. Sayerslle (talk) 22:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

"Speculated" means they do not know. I know fairly directly that Alice would not speak to Charles - but we can't use that knowledge in any article. BBC documentaries are no better nor worse than their writers (and their advertising blurbs for such documentaries are much worse) - which means one is well-advised to get a second source to back it up. Collect (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think Martha Kearney is a respected reporter. There are sources that refer to the programme. A History Today article does, and is rather negative towards it. Newspaper references repeat the idea. Surely it is unlikely that anyone will actually KNOW. WP only reports what RSs say. We would surely allow a citation to a book that speculates about Shakespeare's sexuality - so why not a BBC documentary about Carroll? This is not a question about whether Carroll was a paedophile, it is about whether a BBC documentary, that suggests he might have been, can be cited. I was hoping someone would know of some WP rule that allows or disallows BBC documentaries as RSs.Myrvin (talk) 07:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

 * There is no WP list of reliable or unreliable sources. It is clearly a verifiable source, a notable and widely viewed source, and not a self-published source.  So in my book, it can be used, but it should be carefully identified inline, as you have done, but rather than just say that the program interviewed "experts" I think you should identify specifically who the expert(s) were offering this opinion.  In short, carefully identify the complete fact.  It is a fact that Dr. X and Mrs. Y expressed the opinion you describe in this BBC documentary.  Attributing who made the claim helps to reduce the chance that readers will read the opinion as a statement of fact.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 19:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Naming names is a very good point, and I was thinking of doing that. I have a recording of the programme and I am noting these things down. However, There is so much resistance to the idea of LC's dodgy sexuality that editors are likely to dislike the documentary, no matter what. Still thanks a lot for the view. Myrvin (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I intend to put this in, but it may well be deleted out of hand:"In a 2015 BBC programme, presented by journalist Martha Kearney, experts indicated their belief that a full-frontal photograph of a naked teenage girl was that of the oldest Liddell girl Lorina, and was the work of Dodgson.[3] Nicolas Burnett, a photographic conservation specialist, ruled out the idea that the print is a modern fake. He also said that the image had been taken by a similar camera to the one Carroll is known to have used, and that the developing process and paper was the same as that used by Carroll. He gave his 'gut instinct' that the photograph was by Lewis Carroll. Forensic imagery analyst David Anley compared known images of Lorina at different ages with the suspected photograph. He said 'In my opinion, I would say it's her'. The presenter speculated that this was the possible cause of the rift between Carroll and the Liddell family."Myrvin (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that this would be undue weight. The photography and his relationships with other women are already covered -- all that would be added was a speculation that something that's previously been explained (though less-than-satisfactorily) might or might not have another explanation. Barring that, your phrasing above seems workable. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Use of Yahad-In Unum
I come here as a debate has started on WP:ANI regarding the reliability of that source. Let me sum up the situation: one user, User:Yahad-In Unum (possibly affiliated), has been adding historical information and quotes from witnesses to various articles of Ukrainian towns and villages (examples: ). It has been objected to by Taivo on grounds of COI (username identical to NGO), irrelevance and unreliability of the source. I guess the last one is what matters here.

In my opinion, historical information available on Yahad-In Unum's website is reliable. Our article about the NGO is well-sourced, and shows it is a respected organization with a great record identifying mass grave sites in Ukraine, Belarus, and other territories occupied by the Nazis, and collecting testimonies of surviving inhabitants. Their website is organized around a map, that they inaccurately described as "interactive". I guess that word is what led to it being dismissed as a self-published source. However, it is not user-generated; "interactive" only means "clickable" here I think. A note on the site states: "site profiles are being added incrementally each month as information is prepared and new sites identified" which indicates that the info is provided and/or vetted by their staff.

So would it be considered a reliable source regarding Nazi mass killings in these regions? I would answer with the positive, but defer to second opinions that you would provide here. Thanks! Susuman77 (talk) 15:23, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The website in question may be a good piece of reporting, but it doesn't fit into Wikipedia's definition of reliable source since it consists of a compilation of primary sources (first-person accounts) rather than Wikipedia's preferred secondary sources. While I have the utmost respect for survivors, their memories do not constitute vetted information.  Susuman77's concerns are valid, but my ANI was initiated after reading one entry in Wikipedia which 1) was not much more than the quote, "They lined us up against a wall and shot most of us", and 2) was inserted into a very brief history section.  Some of the additions have dates and numbers of victims, but we need to be judicious about which ones are added.  And I still think it is inappropriate for User:Yahad-In Unum to be adding information as it is a WP:COI.  If another editor wants to use that site judiciously, then that is another matter.  --Taivo (talk) 15:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * For reference, this is the edit that got my attention. It is hardly encyclopedic.  --Taivo (talk) 15:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess Taivo and I can agree on the need for judicious use of the source. Indeed, not all quotes from their witness accounts have a place in our articles. However, the site also offers short description of events and statistics in its own voice, and I reckon that would constitute a reliable source. History sections are brief for many reasons, and current paucity of info should not be a reason to remove new info that is relevant: the Holocaust was a crucial event that, besides deserving mention and remembrance, drastically changed the demographics of these places. I hope we can find agreement on what is relevant in addition to reliability matters. Susuman77 (talk) 15:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that User:Susuman77 and I might very well agree on these things, correct me if I'm wrong:
 * User:Yahad-In Unum should suggest additions on Talk Pages first.
 * Information to be added should be substantial, such as total numbers of people killed, deported, population figures, dates of occupation, etc.
 * Survivor quotes are generally not appropriate since they don't address the points in the preceding bullet.
 * --Taivo (talk) 15:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure I can agree on these points:
 * I guess your first bullet is motivated by COI concerns. We need to first hear from the user whether he is directly involved with the NGO/website. Even if he is, Nyttend suggested at ANI that he should be able to add valuable information if that source is deemed reliable: it is not the situation of a company trying to get more business though WP but an educational/memorial NGO trying to contribute. Let's see what others think.
 * Description of events based on witness testimonies is valuable to a historical article/section. I think that paraphrasing/summarizing events based on the testimonies available on that website should be possible and valuable if attributed correctly, and preferable to bare quotes as provided in the edits you object to. However, I don't see these edits (even the Khmelnytskyi one as unencyclopedic, even though they can be improved. Susuman77 (talk) 16:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Quotes that do not add actual information, but do nothing more than sensationalize the situation or evoke empathy are not encyclopedic. The quote at Khmelnytskyi is precisely of that nature--it adds no actual information to the article, it simply evokes empathy or sensationalizes the atrocity.  There are no numbers, no facts, no actual content.  --Taivo (talk) 16:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It does add information and contain facts: Jews were killed by the Nazis, and villagers were forced to watch and threatened with similar treatment. I fail to see any sensationalization. It should be presented better (number of people killed, date, etc., I'll try to find out more in the next days), but it definitely adds information about an important fact in the history of this place, that was totally missing from the article before. It should be improved, not removed. Susuman77 (talk) 16:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, people over here, calm down. Wait for a third-party to voice their thoughts. It's still a dialogue. -- QEDK ♠  T  ♥  C  16:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

. Taivo's description above in their first post describes what I'm seeing pretty well right now. We don't use first-hand accounts for much of anything on Wikipedia really. The map may have some editorial oversight, but it appears like it's based on just recollection rather than confirmation of the locations. I wouldn't consider the source reliable for the content that was removed (though it's also a weight question a bit too). Susuman77 brought up the idea of more general statistics being presented later in this conversation. That's a little better, but I would imagine there are plenty of more reliable sources out there for that basic information than this one. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:02, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your opinion, Kingofaces43! Allow me to disagree with you on one point: I don't think the content of the website is "based on just recollection rather than confirmation of the locations". Gathering testimonies is indeed a crucial part of their work, but far from the only aspect. To quote our article on them (paragraph unfortunately without inline references, but I can look for them), "the team includes a photographer, ballistics expert, translators, drivers, daily report recorders, a witness interviewer and camera operator. During each trip, the team travels from village to village, where they interview and film the surviving eyewitnesses, using testimony of witnesses to discover the locations of the graves. Once the graves are located, the team uses high-tech equipment to obtain forensic evidence that validates the testimonies." The data and testimony videos they publish on the site are only a fraction of their work. If we look at a random location (Klimovo), we also see excerpts of Soviet investigative reports and their own trip reports. More data seems available if you register as a researcher. All in all, it seems like the work of a dedicated professional research team, who selected and interpreted the primary material (forensic + testimonies), making it a secondary source rather than a gathering of recollection with "some editorial oversight". I have not found scholarly criticism of their methods and conclusions. On the contrary, honorary doctorates from NYU or Hebrew University show they receive respect from fellow Holocaust researchers. A brief research shows them taking part in a scholarly conference (Paris Sorbonne 2007), and the US Holocaust Memorial Museum praises them and insists on their close collaboration.
 * On the other hand, I tend to think that the bare quotes from witnesses as inserted by User:Yahad-In Unum are not the best way to exploit this material in WP. I would rather support summaries sourced to them, but focused on numbers, dates, and a short description of the events (explicitly attributed to surviving witnesses so that is clear, but without unnecessary direct quotes). Would you favor such an approach for these Ukrainian town articles? Susuman77 (talk) 21:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That changes things up a little bit for me then. I would still consider the location information a WP:PRIMARY source from the website still, but it does seem reliable to say the group claims to have found sites now with that attribution. That at least brings it past my minimum threshold where I normally wouldn't consider using a source in question. I'd look for secondary sources that are summarizing this information instead though. The reason why I don't consider this source a secondary source though is because all the work is basically part of the same project. It's similar to designing a scientific experiment that has multiple steps. Even though you are collecting the data (i.e., forensics + testimony) you are still interpreting those findings and presenting them (i.e., maps). I'd look for sources that cite this source and see what they say. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:06, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You make a convincing point for the "primary" status of this source. Reading WP:PRIMARY, it seems to me that such sources can be used "with care". I think info published on that website can be used in such a way, with attribution, as the organization that publishes it has a good scholarly reputation and can be relied upon to not publish blatantly false material. I would use them for bare facts in such a way: "On, Einsatzgruppen killed Jewish inhabitants of . According to testimonies gathered by Yahad-In Unum, they were ." with ref to the relevant page. Additional context (dates of German occupation, size of Jewish community/general town population before/after the war) can be added from other sources. For more controversial statements, such as voluntary collaboration of local population in the massacres, more secondary sources would probably be needed. Their research is pretty recent and more detailed than any previous one on the Holocaust in former Soviet territories, which means it is still difficult to find secondary sources that would go in such detail about each locality. It does not mean in my opinion that mentioning those events in the history sections of the articles about the towns is undue weight: these towns had often a sizable Jewish population, if not a majority of Jewish inhabitants, until the Einsatzgruppen murdered them, drastically altering the demographic, religious, cultural nature of the places. As such, not mentioning it would be detrimental to a comprehensive encyclopedic overview of each town's history. Susuman77 (talk) 22:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I must, however, express one difference that Susuman77 and myself still apparently have, however. That is directly related to the first instance that got my attention here (link above), where an eyewitness statement is the only thing added to an article and contained no numbers and no hard data, just the quote, "They shot some of us and threatened us."  That is simply not encyclopedic.  Please name a town in Eastern Europe that didn't have that same experience with the Nazis.  It is like saying, "Every day in Prescott, Arizona, the sun rises in the east and the citizens have the right of free speech."  It's sad that it happened, but it's not anything unique to that town and doesn't need to be stated for every town in Ukraine.  Numbers, dates, etc.--that is encyclopedic content, but simply a former resident saying the Nazis were doing what Nazis did everywhere is not encyclopedic.  --Taivo (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I get your point, sadly. However, the enormity of the Nazis' crimes makes it in my opinion more necessary to document them painstakingly town by town. Yes, a simple mention of the event is not enough, but I do not feel it right to remove it instead of improving it. I think the ideal solution would combine data on population before and after the war, dates of occupation and massacres, perpetrators, and a brief summary of events from testimonies/investigations (some sourced narrative in addition to numbers is not unencyclopedic, just look at some WW2 GAs and FAs). YiU is an important source for that, not the only one. I'll try to develop a model and look for good complementary sources in the next weeks. If we can achieve that, I guess the debate we're having here and now would become irrelevant. Susuman77 (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * We are in agreement that dates, numbers, etc. are appropriate encyclopedic content. But even when paired with actual facts, victim quotes are not appropriate encyclopedic content since the majority of the time their primary content is emotional and their factual content is absolutely minimal at best.  We don't include quotes from, say, Boko Haram survivors or ISIS survivors or survivors of other atrocities because the factual content is minimal and the emotional content is maximal.  Describe what happened in the town with facts, figures, etc. from reliable sources, but leave the direct quotes out.  --Taivo (talk) 23:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Though I agree with you from an NPOV perspective, this isn't the board to settle discuss. I think you two have it settled what the source appears reliable