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User:JWSchmidt/Semantic prosthetic

This page was originally made for Wiki Science but was never made welcome because of its original research aspect.

Semantic Networks and Personal Experience
Human conscious experience is normally dominated by memory. New sensory experiences are processed in ways that are heavily influenced by past experiences. When sensory stimuli are reduced (sensory deprivation), a human brain is able to continue generating chains of thoughts by making use of existing memories. The ways in which one thought leads to another thought reflects a semantic network that exists within the brain. The behavior of such a semantic network can be described as a content addressable memory system. A new sensory pattern or a thought will "resonate" with existing contents of the memory system leading to activation of relevant memories and the generation of adaptive thoughts and behavioral responses. The semantic memory network is modified by on-going thoughts resulting in new memories. With time, human semantic memory comes to contain an increasing complex representation of the world.

Degenerotes, Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes, Semantotes
It has been suggested that humans should be classified in a "kingdom" distinct from other animals. We can tentatively place humans in the kingdom of "Semantotes", those beings who exist consciously within a virtual mental world that is generated by the semantic network that their brain can learn. Other animals such as the apes and dolphins may fruitfully be classified as Semantotes. However, humans are exceptional in terms of their neotenic brain development which is adapted to juvenile learning of culturally transmitted skills such as language and tool use. (However, juvenile primates do learn culturally transmitted skills such as tool use from watching others. Nestling song birds also learn how to correctly vocalize their species-specific song by listening to others.)

Human Language as a Semantic Prosthetic Device
We all live in the same physical world and we all share a common genetic heritage which determines the basic structure and function of the brain. Humans have evolved in a social environment where there is a high level of reward for knowing what other people are thinking. It has been suggested that this need to know what others know is the major reason for our unique human cognitive strengths. If so, it may be that human languages evolve so as to best serve as tools for allowing people to come to know what other people are thinking. We can think of human language as a cultural artifact, a prosthetic device or a tool that assists humans to survive by enhancing their ability to come to know what other people know. We can describe human language as the original semantic prosthetic.

Wiki as a prosthetic device
Written language is a relatively new invention. Books and other written documents have become useful aids for the cultural transmission of knowledge and they certainly qualify as useful semantic prosthetics. However, traditional books and printed documents have severe limitations as semantic prosthetics: they are limited in perspective, expensive, rare, hard to access, and they easily become out-dated. Electronic forms of communication and knowledge exchange can avoid some of the limitations of printed books. When distributed by the world wide web, electronic documents such as HTML pages can become cheap, easy to copy, and easy to access. A single individual can keep conventional HTML pages up to date, but a quick look at the World Wide Web (WWW) reveals a common problem: too many HTML pages that are abandoned by their single authors and which quickly become irrelevant fossils.

Wiki HTML pages can escape the limitations of narrow perspective imposed by a limited number (usually just one) of authors and also make it easier to keep pages up to date by sharing the work load involved in the update process. While conventional HTML pages can be cheap, another all too common feature of the WWW is the sale of information. Open and free modes of information exchange (like wikis using a free license) can place reasonable limits on the cost of obtaining information. It remains to be seen just how dramatically human communication will be affected by new semantic prostheses like wikis. Empirical observations will be required as part of the scientific study of Wikis as semantic prostheses.

Semantic prosthetic theory and the future of Wiki
Can we make fruitful guesses about the future of wikis as semantic prosthetic devices? I suggest that a theoretical foundation for the science of wiki can be established by formalizing the idea of a semantic network. We can start by thinking about the set of all things that people have known, now know, and will know in the future. We can conceptualize this set of human knowledge as a high-dimensional space, but project all of the high-dimensional structure into a simple 2-dimensional map for "back of the envelop" evaluation of basic ideas.

One important 2-dimensional projection results from mapping each person's total knowledge as a point on a 2D "everything I know" map (or, for short, "knowledge map"). We imagine that at any given time, each individual is located at some point (A) on this map. A prosthetic device like a wiki can speed the rate at which a person moves across the map towards a new desired state of knowledge (B). In building our wikis, we can seek ways to maximize their ability to increase the speed at which people can move around on the "everything I know" map. The formation of new useful semantic memory (movement across the "everything I know" map) depends on a fruitful matching (path 2 in the diagram) between what a person already knows and the format of the information provided by the semantic prosthetic device that is guiding that person to a new state of knowledge (a new location on the knowledge map). For each person the topography of the knowledge map might be different and for most efficient movement to a new state of knowledge there is an optimal path. Without good matching between the learner and the topic to be learned, the learning process is more difficult (path 1 in the diagram).

How can a wiki evolve so as to be able to provide optimal paths? I think there are two basic ways to promote the utility of a wiki as a semantic prosthetic device. First, the people who make the wiki pages have to be thinking about how to most efficiently move a person from point A to point B. This requires an understanding of what it means for a person to be at point A or point B and an understanding of the cognitive landscape around this region of the knowledge map. Second, the people making the wiki pages have to be able to abandon the idea of "one page fits all". Different people are going to arrive at point B from different starting points. Diversity, a multiplicity of approaches to point B need to be made available. This is the positive approach and algorithm for wiki success.

Pulling our ladders up behind us
I think the major problem for optimization of a wiki is that once people reach a certain knowledge state, they tend to forget what it was like before they got there. This problem can be addressed by collaboration between people who are at point A and point B on a knowledge map. Users of a wiki who are using the wiki to get from A to B have to be able to provide feedback to those people who are already at B. By way of this feedback learners can make known the places on a wiki page where they fail to make rapid progress towards their learning goal. At the very least, there needs to be a way for people to mark places on a wiki page where they get confused and need more help. Theoretically, such feedback could take place on "talk" pages that are associated with each content page. However, current wiki talk pages tend to be dominated by arguments between people who are already at point B.

Actual users (those who are learning from the content of the page) need a simple and quick way to mark difficult locations in a page. The standard for ease of use is "point and click." I propose that wiki engineers should develop a system by which wiki readers can be provided with a small pallet of "feedback markups" where they can simply click on an icon and "stick" it on the page where they have a problem or want to make a comment. Ideally, each page could have a transparent "markup" overlay that would display the user feedback icons and could be used to quickly visually identify problem locations on a page.

The "stop", "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" icons would just be dragged onto the page and dropped. When the "add a comment" icon is dropped, a comment window would open allowing the user to add a comment for that particular location in the page. An example of a wiki page with this user markup overlay is shown below.

Related resources

 * Angela's comments on a meta data layer - Wikipedia mail list, December 2007

title: User:JWSchmidt/Semantic prosthetic


text:
Talk:Rebecca Lobo

Untitled
Rebecca is not listed here as being one of the seven womens' basketball players who have won an NCAA title, an Olympic gold medal, and a WNBA championship, though she is listed as such on several other places. As a matter of record (and as reflected in this article though not in any others), Lobo does have an NCAA championship and was a member of the 1996 USA Olympic team that won gold in Atlanta. However, she spend five years as a member of the New York Liberty, a period of time where the Liberty went to the league finals four times against two different teams, winning no championships. By the time she was traded to Houston, that team was a few years removed from their championships, and Connecticut was not yet to their run of fruitless appearances in the league finals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca on CP
go to www.clubpenguin.com and find a penguin named blackpaw3 most likley on klondike most likely with a penguin named Kikolynne who is her gard in real life so good luck with her —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kikolyne (talk • contribs) 00:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

High school scoring record?
Porter (Basketball: A Biographical Dictionary) says 2740, while this says 2710 and Southwick-Tolland Regional High School says 2710 (uncited).-- SPhilbrick  T  13:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

LDR style
I decided to add some material and reference it using the WP:LDR citation style. In order to reduce confusion, I converted existing references to LDR style, so all are in the same style. Any questions, please ask.-- SPhilbrick  T  16:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)She was a A+ student and went to the best schools.

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 * Added tag to http://msn.foxsports.com/wcbk/story/Lobo-Age-why-shes-1st-of-UConn-Huskies-in-hall-67720740

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121109022509/http://www.wickedlocal.com/bellingham/sports/x2136192967 to http://www.wickedlocal.com/bellingham/sports/x2136192967
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source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Rebecca Lobo


text:
oplawaai

Etymology
Compound og.

Noun

 * 1) A sounding blow, punch, whack, as with a fist
 * 2)  A hard hit, bad blow, inadversity such as a setback

title: oplawaai


text:
User:Dom0803

Dom0803 is a wikipedian. You can see his userpage here. He is at Wikiversity to write an article on Locator maps.

Dom0803's sandbox

title: User:Dom0803


text:
vuil

Etymology
From, from , from , from.

Adjective

 * 1) obscene, indecent, dirty
 * 2) dishonorable

Etymology
From, from. The adjective is from, from , the noun from. Ultimately from,. Akin to 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬.

Adjective

 * 1) foul, dirty, filthy
 * 2) obscene, lewd
 * 3) dishonorable
 * 4) illegal, improper
 * 5)  fouled, having its wetted surface polluted by marine organisms

Noun

 * 1) dirt, filth
 * 2) garbage, trash, waste, litter

title: vuil


text:
User:Kwiki111

Destination: Ecotourism A comparison of the many definitions of ecotourism indicate that ecotourism tends to have three main components: nature-based, educational and sustainable management that includes economic, social, cultural and ethical issues.

Definitions
Unlike other travel and tourism terminologies, there is no established conceptual and technical definition of ecotourism.

 * As a guiding conceptual principle, however, ecotourism can be said to be that which occurs in natural settings (protected and non-protected) with an attempt to increase benefits to the economy, society and environment through sustainable educational practices from locals to tourists and vice versa.

 * Responsible travel to natural areas that conserves the environment and improves the well being of local people	(The International Ecotourism Society, 1990)

 * Ecotourism is travel to fragile, pristine and usually protected areas that strives to be low impact and (usually small scale). It helps educate the traveler; provides funds for conservation; directly benefits the economic development and political empowerment of local communities; and fosters respect for different cultures and for human rights. (Martha Honey, 1999)

 * Environmentally responsible travel and visitation to natural areas, in order to enjoy and appreciate nature (and accompanying cultural features, both past and present) that promote conservation, have a low visitor impact and provide for beneficially active socio-economic involvement of local people. (World Conservation Union, 1996)

 * Ecotourism embraces the principles of sustainable tourism… and the following principles which distinguish it from the wider concept of sustainable tourism:
 * contributes actively to the conservation of natural and cultural heritage,
 * includes local and indigenous communities in its planning, development an operation,   contributing to their well-being,
 * interprets the natural and cultural heritage of the destination to visitor, and
 * lends itself better to independent travelers as well as to organized tours for small size groups. (Quebec Declaration on Ecotourism)

History
"Although the origin of this concept dates back to the 1960’s, Hector Ceballos-Lascurain is generally regarded as the one who coined the term ecotourism. Ceballos-Lascurain defined ecotourism as “that segment of tourism that involves travel to relatively undisturbed or uncontaminated natural areas with the specific objective of admiring, studying and enjoying the scenery and its wild plants and animals, as well as any existing cultural features (both past and present) found in these areas." (Cruz, 2000)

Ecotourism activities have been expanding rapidly over the past two decades world-wide and further growth is expected in the future. (WTO-UNEP, 2002)

Born in its current form in the late 1980's, Ecotourism came of age in 2002. The United Nations, recognizing its global importance, designated the year 2002 as the International Year of Ecotourism, and its Commission on Sustainable Development requested international agencies, governments and the private sector to undertake supportive activities. The World Tourism Organization (WTO) and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) have joined forces in the preparation and co-ordination of some activities to be undertaken at the international level during the Year.

Prominent Examples from Around the World
http://www.ecotour.org/xp/ecotour/destinations/

Important Planning Principles and Values to Emphasize

 * A particular planning concern of this type of tourism is the environmental impact of the tourist activities in natural environments and, in some places, the cultural impact on traditional societies.

 * The basic approach for planning of natural tourist attractions such as national parks is an application of the environmental planning approach, which emphasizes conservation of the natural environment as well as designing visitor facilities and organizing visitor use that will fit well into the environment and do not degrade it. This can also be expressed as achieving a balance between optimum enjoyment and appreciation of the environment by the visitors without the degradation of the environment by tourism and maintaining the conservation objectives.

 * The park or conservation plan is often termed as a management plan because the planning concept is that of continuous management of the natural resource so that it serves both

Guidelines for Ecotourism Development

 * 1) 	The attraction and activities in a particular area must be varied and interesting.
 * 2) 	In case of a single outstanding feature, it must truly be unique and impressive. Inherent activities like diving or trekking may also be possible in the area.
 * 3) 	The size of the area can range from a few hectares to a town, a province, or a region. The number of attractions, however, must be closely associated and connected with one another in terms of accessibility.
 * 4) 	The community, through a dialogue, must be willing to accept the introduction or development of tourism in their area. Community-based ecotourism must be supported by the locals.
 * 5) 	The area or large part of it must be accessible for most parts of the year.
 * 6) 	There must be adequate resources to support the community and visitors.

Planning Process and Techniques
The process of planning natural attractions is generally as follows:
 * determination of the development and conservation objectives within the framework of the parks and conservation policy
 * environmental/ecological analysis, including any special surveys required such as wildlife, flora, and ecological systems, with identification of special environment areas to be preserved, such as wildlife habitat
 * establishment of visitor carrying capacities, based on various assumptions of types of visitor use
 * projection of visitor demand by type of use, such as day tours, hiking and camping and, if necessary, reconciliation made with the carrying capacity analysis to arrive at optimum visitor use levels
 * determination of type of visitor facilities needed and facility space requirements
 * formulation of the plan, including preparation and evaluation of the outline plans based on the plan’s objectives and environmental impacts, and finalization of the selected plan with staging of development indicated
 * preparation of a visitor use

Planning Guides

 * Pacific Business Center Program's Ecotourism Planning Kit
 * Planning for Ecotourism on the Coast of Maine
 * The World Ecotourism Summit

Key institutions
Important organizations involved in or supporting ecotourism development:
 * http://www.wwf.org/
 * http://www.ecotour.org/
 * http://www.ecotourism.org/
 * http://www.uneptie.org/pc/tourism/
 * http://www.nature.org/
 * http://www.rainforestalliance.org/

Case Studies
The following are links to documents that show the planning process, plans, and outcomes of ecotourism.

'''Community- Based Ecotourism Venture: The Case of Sunungukai Camp, Zimbabwe'''

Authors: Kenneth K. Odero and Prisca Huchu

“This case is an example of a community-based ecotourism venture in Sunungkai Camp, Zimbabwe. The project aims to provide income to the surrounding communities and to promote the conservation of natural resources. The principle behind ecotourism is that providing compensation and substitution can lead to change of attitude and practice of resource management by local communities. There were four institutions involved in this process: the Local Community, CAMPFIRE Association, Zimbabwe Trust and the Uzumba-Maramba-Pfungwe Rural District Council (UMPRDC). CAMPFIRE Association served as the lead institution promoting the project; Zimbabwe Trust provided funding and management training; and UMPRDC served as the link organization.” [Read more at http://srdis.ciesin.org/cases/zimbabwe-004.html]

'''Indigenous Ecotourism and Sustainable Development: The Case of Rio Blanco, Ecuador'''

Author: David T. Schaller

“The indigenous Quichua community of Río Blanco, in the Ecuadorian Amazon (Napo Province), was founded in 1971 by Quichua migrants from the Andean foothills, where, as a result of population growth and inmigration of mestizo agricultural colonists, the supply of land was becoming short. Since 1971, the economy of Río Blanco has shifted from one based almost entirely on subsistence agriculture and hunting to one reliant on cash crops such as coffee, cacao, rice and maize. Río Blanco has experienced high population growth in the past twenty years which, along with a rising cost of living, has driven the people of the community to expand greatly the amount of land under cultivation. As a result, the amount of primary tropical forest has decreased until, in 1995, it accounted for less than half of the community's main block of land. Facing continued population growth, the community has developed an ecotourism project as an alternative economic activity which may protect the forest rather than clear it.” [Read more at http://www.eduweb.com/schaller/RioBlancoSummary.html]

'''Remote Sensing and GIS based Ecotourism Planning: A Case Study for Western Midnapore, West Bengal, India'''

Authors: U. K. Banerjee, Smriti Kumari, S. K. Paul and S. Sudhakar

“Present study is an attempt to identify potential ecotourism sites in eastern India using Remote Sensing and GIS techniques in forest dominated area of western Midnapore, West Bengal. After identifying the potential sites, a demonstrative plan has been made for Ecotourism development based on locally available natural resources.” [Read more at http://www.gisdevelopment.net/application/miscellaneous/misc028.htm]

Ecotourism in Uganda: A Case Study of the Mgahinga National Park

Author: Francis Okello

“This is a case study of Mgahinga gorilla national park in Western Uganda. It is an attempt to investigate the importance and relevance of ecotourism and assess the awareness and understanding of ecotourism among the local population. The results show that, despite a low number of respondents employed in the tourism industry, the local population supports the idea of conservation of wildlife. All the respondents interviewed unanimously answered that they support the idea of nature conservation.” [read more at http://www.handels.gu.se/epc/archive/00003698/]

Community Eco-tourism Development in Cockrane Village, Dominica: A Case Study by OECS Environment and Sustainable Development Unit

Author: David T. Popo

“The village is rich with plantation salve history and still contains some old ruins which will form part of the tourist attractions. The village borders the Morne Pitons National Park which is listed as a world heritage site. The conversion of the village into an eco-village will enable historians to continue the documentation of this slave based community and also to afford residents and visitors the opportunity to enjoy the ecosystem in its glory. Because of the decline in Bannaa production, turning Cockrane into and eco-village would provide villagers an alternative source of income. The super goal of the Cockrane Ecotourism project is to develop Cockrane as a buffer zone to the Morne Trois Piton world heritage site by enhancing biodiversity conservation and sustainable livelihoods.” [Read more at http://www.oecs.org/esdu/documents/CommResManage/CASE%20STUDY%20COMMUNITY%20ECOTOURISM%20COCKRANE.pdf]

Case Study: Tourism and Biodiversity (Ecotourism – A Sustainable Development Tool, A Case for Belize)

Author: Wiezsman Pat

“This case study highlights the potential of ecotourism as an economic activity that will contribute to the sustainable economic and social development of the country and contribute to environmental and cultural heritage preservation, while ensuring the participation of the local communities and the other stakeholders in the process.” [Read more at http://<IP_ADDRESS>/search?q=cache:a4ma8X2JZeEJ:www.unep.org/bpsp/Tourism/Case%2520Studies%2520(pdf)/Belize(Tourism).pdf+case+study+ecotourism&hl=tl&gl=ph&ct=clnk&cd=6]

'''Community- Based Ecotourism and Community Building: The Case of the Lacandones (Chiapas)'''

Author: Axel Kersten

“A recent "post development" approach within the tourism sector is community based ecotourism. The concept tries to describe a sustainable way of tourism into natural reserves while providing a source of community building or development for local people without destroying natural habitats and cultural systems.” [Read more at http://www.planeta.com/planeta/97/0597lacandon.html]

Community Initiatives in Ecotourism:A Case Study from Sikkim, India

Author: By the staff and participants from The Sikkim Biodiversity and Ecotourism Project

“With over 90,000 domestic and 6,000 international tourists in 1995, tourism is rapidly becoming an important economic activity for the Sikkimese people. Ecotourism, with its focus on environmentally sound practices and generating widespread economic benefits, offers an opportunity for Sikkim to improve the livelihoods of its mountain communities and protect its unique heritage. The Sikkim Biodiversity and Ecotourism Project (SBEP) is a collaborative initiative designed to conserve the biological diversity of key destinations. At the heart of the project are participatory approaches that link enterprise operation with conservation action, while merging traditional cultural practices.” [Read more at http://www.recoftc.org/site/fileadmin/docs/publications/Seminar_Proceeding/Sikkim.doc]

References:

 * Cruz, Reil. Principles of Travel and Tourism. Quezon City: Tourism Research Philippines. 2000.
 * http://www.ecotourism.org/index2.php?ecotourism_associations
 * http://www.planeta.com/ecotravel/tour/definitions.html
 * http://www.cabi-publishing.org/bookshop/BookDisplay.asp?SubjectArea=&Subject=&PID=1614
 * http://www.uneptie.org/pc/tourism/ecotourism/home.htm
 * http://www.nature.org/aboutus/travel/ecotourism/
 * http://www.tq.com.au/special-interests/ecotourism/ecotourism_home.cfm
 * http://www.hawaiiecotourism.org/
 * http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4733
 * http://www.ecotourism.org/store/product_info.php?cPath=28_29&products_id=5

title: User:Kwiki111


text:
Talk:Ramgarhia

Cleanup
This article has rough sections now, but it needs to be rewritten to be less confusing and unencyclopedic. Explaining the importance of this group would be a good idea too. --Danaman5 00:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are right Danaman5. Someone has wrote the introductory para with no grammar, zero reference to the history and lot of vague information. The author wrote what was in his/her mind rather than what is the history with a reference to some good book or any article. RajwantSinghRamgarhia (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The standard of this article is really poor. There seems to be zero referencing and really poor grammar. I am deleting all empty sections. Manmeets 09:26, 10 November 2009

. There is also NO evidence/proof that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was Khatri, it is widely accepted that he was born into a Parsi family. 12:12, 11 November 2009

This article is full of inaccurate statements that are not backed up with any evidence. Again, the information about the Sikh Guru's is totally irrelevant! It is absolutely accepted that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born into a Khatri Hindu Bedi family. The information about Satguru Ram Singh is not needed, as there is already a separate article for him. Manmeets 08:53, 12 November 2009

I've started the clean-up of this document (particularly regarding non-reliable information). Manmeets (talk) 20:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the anonymous editer gets the concept of sources!!Manmeets (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleted - Arjun Rampal- Bollywood film star (Rampal - Punjabi saraswat brahmin) (Rajpal- Ramgarhia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramgarhia Munda (talk • contribs) 17:45, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

How can they or who are they (Paramjit S Judge and Gurpreet Bal) to decide what H. A. Rose,Denzil Ibbetson and William Crooke supposed? This is absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramgarhia Munda (talk • contribs) 20:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

This article presents severely controversial, and unprofessionally biased information glorifying a certain group over the one discussed. Singhjischolar (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

BRILL sources
Please explain why is unreliable, and why people keep removing it. The source appears to be of impeccable academic pedigree and all the arguments in the (mostly old, terribly fractured) preceding section are trying to compare it with British Raj era sources which long-standing consensus says are not reliable. You may not like it but Wikipedia is not here to glorify any particular group and is not censored. - Sitush (talk) 14:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This doesn't even warrant any discussion.Clear POV pushing.I often wander whether all caste-based articles shall be mass-semi'd! Winged Blades Godric 15:03, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Try telling the admin who fully protected the thing. I can't believe what has just happened, WP:WRONGVERSION or not. I can only assume that they're out of touch with the discretionary sanctions and the topic area etc because I asked for semi at WP:RFPP. Anons are do not usually respond when they have got their way and, as you say, this is blatant. - Sitush (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I could have invoked Spiffy or Bish but that would be adminshopping. Winged Blades Godric 15:42, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * --This's going to be interesting. Winged Blades Godric 15:55, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * All I can see is it being a waste of time due to an ignorant admin. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah..See Dloh's last t/p thread.By their motives, this's going to be a time-sink, before T-bans strike. Winged Blades Godric 16:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * I'm better staying away from their talk page - I'm likely to come out with a stream of invective and get a topic ban myself. Their decision can be overturned at any time before protection expires if an admin is satisfied consensus exists. Basically, it looks like we'll have to wait for one other person to state the obvious and then it can be dropped to a semi-protection, which might just encourage the anons to discuss their ludicrous notions that the sources are unreliable. The pattern is familiar to any admin with even a small amount of common sense and topic area knowledge. - Sitush (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * T-banning you! That would be fun!  Considering that I, Utcursch and you are all supporting it, I fail to see why we even need to get another man supporting us. Winged Blades Godric 16:13, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

appalled
Please try to seek a consensus for your version. If the anon's fail to opine, then that is up to them. Once consensus is reached, we can unprotect the page. Thanks -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There is a bloody consensus. You just can't see it for some daft reason. I'll not bother with RfPP in future if you're going to be patrolling it - plenty of admins who actually have some clue and willing to act elsewhere. - Sitush (talk) 15:50, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * To be fair, is a damn good sysop but wading into areas where one clearly know(s) next to nothing and stubbornness aren't desirable. Winged Blades Godric 15:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * They are? Never come across them before so will have to take your word for it. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

There is not a consensus. The page is poorly written, and clearly has not been written from a neutral viewpoint. Sentences such as: "Free from their socially superior Jat landlords of the Punjab, the once-lowly Ramgarhia" are highly offensive to the Ramgharia and do not add anything to the page. It only promotes prejudice and is un-neccessary, and should be removed pernamently. Johnsimpson321 (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Let's analyse your phrases one by one:--

 * There is not a consensus--There is concensus. I, Sitush, Utcursch, can you be counted?  vs you.
 * clearly has not been written from a neutral viewpoint-That's unfortunate.Please provide the reliably sourced alternative viewpoints.
 * are highly offensive...only promotes prejudice...un-neccessary--Read WP:NOTCENSORED
 * and do not add anything to the page--Subjective opinion.Adds much to the page by awaring the readers about the-then social hiearchy. Winged Blades Godric 16:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * No, don't count me, thanks. I may take over here as an uninvolved admin, if Dlohcierekim agrees to a suggestion I've made on his page. I'm not part of any consensus (if I was, I would no longer be uninvolved). Bishonen | talk 16:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC).
 * <> I'd prefer to allow the discussion to run a bit longer, but I leave it un your capable hands. Thanks for the 2nd opinion. Cheers, -- Dlohcierekim (talk) 16:43, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

The sentence: "Free from their socially superior Jat landlords of the Punjab, the once-lowly Ramgarhia" does not accurately reflect the words of the cited content. No where in the cited document does it state that any Ramgharia were dependent on ‘Jat Landlords’. It reads as if the Ramgharia were prisoners of the Jat landlords. The words of the cited document have been distorted, to promote prejudice and division. -John Simpson

 * So you are not now claiming that the source is unreliable but rather that it is misrepresented? I can't see the specific pages of the thing so it might help if (a) you could provide some sort of relevant quotation from it (in context, not just a cherry-picked sentence) and (b) you explain why the sentence that you quote, and which was recently removed from the article, implies that they were prisoners. For what it is worth, I see no mention of jails, imprisonment etc but rather a nicely worded, succinct statement that the once-lowly Ramgarhias were able to progress after they were distanced from the Jat landlords. There may be an English language comprehension issue here, rather than a fault with what was said. - Sitush (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * I definitely disagree with the anon's assertion that the source is unreliable. That is simply not true -- the author, the editor, and the publisher have strong credentials.
 * / anon: I hope you are not claiming that the Ramgarhias were never considered low in social status compared to the Jats (a statement supported by several reliable sources). Achieving a higher social status despite having a disadvantaged background is something to be proud of, not something that should be considered as offensive.
 * If your contention is simply about the words "free of", "socially superior Jat landlords" / "the once-lowly Ramgarhia", that can be discussed here. For example, "lowly" can be changed to something like "who previously held a low social status" or "who were earlier considered low in social status". utcursch | talk 18:23, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes my problem is with the words: "free of", "socially superior Jat landlords" / "the once-lowly Ramgarhia". They do not best reflect the cited material, and can be easily interpreted as being offensive. Please reword this phrase, or remove it.

I am open to suggestions. I find Utcursch’s suggestions helpful.

“free of” should be changed to “distanced from”

“lowly” should be changed to “who were earlier considered low in social status”

Did all Ramgharia have Jat Landlords? Every single one? Not one owned their land at the time? Please provide me with more information regarding this.

The actual book which is being cited cannot be read when following the links in the bibliography. I had to read the material elsewhere.

Perhaps you could show me some more sources regarding what was said? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Why does it need multiple sources? Are we really quibbling about whether literally every single Ramgarhia was this or that? Do you still have access to the source, wherever you read it? I really would like to see what it says. And I would also appreciate an explanation for the other removal of a mention of the Jats, further down in the article. It does all rather smack of trying to eliminate referring to them. - Sitush (talk) 20:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Ah, how weird. I can now see it, having visited exactly the same GBooks link again. "The Ramgarhias of the Brahmaputra Valley ... migrated from Amritsar and Gurdaspur in the first quarter of the twentieth century ... In Punjab, they stood comparatively at a lower wrung (sic) of the rural order and were called kamins (artisans) by their landlords who were mostly Jats. In the plains of Assam, however, taking advantage of Jats' absence, they managed to slip into their shoes. Their emigration to the plains of Assam offered them an opportunity for caste mobilisation which was otherwise impossible in Punjab." I still can't see p. 176 but the aforementioned in from p 175. All I have omitted via ellipses is detail about exactly where they settled etc. - Sitush (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * And now I can see p 176 after revisiting the link yet again. "The new habitat also enabled them to claim a higher social status by putting their inferior rural social position to the background". There is more of the same on p 177, eg: "owing to their low artisanal status in villages". - Sitush (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

If the information was so reliable, then you should easily be able to provide multiple sources? The more sources the more realiable the information.

Have you even read the sourced content, find it on the internet yourself. If you read it you will realise the sentence:

"Free from their socially superior Jat landlords of the Punjab, the once-lowly Ramgarhia"

Is poorly worded and has misrepresented the sourced material? So we should remove it or reword it as per Utcursch’s helpful suggestions.

I restate my question:

Did all Ramgharia have Jat Landlords? Every single one? Not one owned their land at the time? Please provide me with more information regarding this.

If we don’t discuss such things then we promote prejudice and stereotypes.

For these reasons. Either keep the sentence deleted and end this, or work with me to find better wording. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 20:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I see you have found the material, reading it, it is very clear that sentence is lacking and has been poorly worded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * So propose new wording. It wasn't that far off the mark and you do have to read it in the context of the sentences that preceded and followed it in the article - you cannot take it in isolation. And I would still like to know why you removed the other mention of Jats further down the article. - Sitush (talk) 20:44, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Others have shown discontent towards the wording on this page as well. To quote:

This article presents severely controversial, and unprofessionally biased information glorifying a certain group over the one discussed. Singhjischolar (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Best Regards, John Simpson

I was proposing new wording. Please pay attention — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I dont know what you are talking about, this is the only thing I have a problem with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * No, you said you were open to suggestions and mentioned a couple of words. You are the person objecting, so you should propose a full sentence etc. I really couldn't care less what caste warriors from ages ago may or may not have said here - it's a perennial issue that such comments are made at many caste-like articles but unless they are specific etc it is useless time-wasting. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Try looking at the diff I gave above. It clearly shows a mention of Jat being remove elsewhere. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * See here - "only to Jat Sikhs" was removed. - Sitush (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Thats wasn’t me.

I feel we should remove the sentence entirely, for reasons outlined above. If you want it so badly, you reword it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * In that case, it will probably stay in pretty much the form that it was removed. It certainly will not be removed because it is sourced and relevant. That's how consensus works on Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

You said yourself according to the cited content they were “mostly jat landlords” and they were “Ramgharia of the Bhramaputavalley” not all Ramgharia. The sentence reads as if all Ramgharia were slaves to their Jat landlords.

So the sentence is misleading, and not reflective of the sourced content. And has been written to glorify one group over the other. This promotes prejudice and is disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 21:06, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

That is all I have to say, I have outlined my reasoning and I will let the orginal admin who locked the page make the final decision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * WP:NOTCENSORED, as you have been told before. If you really want to quibble about "mostly" then craft a sentence to reflect that. The paragraph is already speaking of the diaspora etc, so it does not refer to all Ramgarhia everywhere. Like I said earlier, I think there is a problem with comprehension and a problem with understanding our policies. You do not have to read Wikipedia if you do not like it, and you can always write whatever you want at some other website.

 * Please note that no admin will make a decision about content while wearing their admin "hat" because that would make them WP:INVOLVED. And that sentence, in some form or another, is going back in for the reasons already given, ie WP:CONSENSUS. I think you need to spend a little time reading some of these capitalised blue links that I and others have mentioned. - Sitush (talk) 21:12, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Perhaps start with Now distant from their landlords in Punjab, who were mostly Jat Sikhs, the Ramhgarhia diaspora in Assam were able to enhance their previously low social status. as the basis for your proposal? - Sitush (talk) 21:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion Sitush. How about:

The sentence: "Free from their socially superior Jat landlords of the Punjab, the once-lowly Ramgarhia"

Changes to: “Distanced from their landlords of the Punjab, who were mostly Jat Sikhs, the Ramgarhia of the Brahmaputra valley were able to improve their own socio-economic standing through these mutually advantageous relationships with the British”

Or: “Distanced from their landlords in the Punjab, the Ramgarhia were able to improve their own socio-economic standing through these mutually advantageous relationships with the British” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

 * You could limit it to the Brahmaputra Valley, rather than Assam, if you want. As for another source, this covers some of it. I really do think your bone of contention is the mention of the Jats, not the efforts of the diaspora etc but the role of the Jat majority among Sikhs is very significant and we should not downplay it. - Sitush (talk) 21:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I have no bone of contention with the mention of Jat Sikhs, I have the utmost respect for them. They fought for the religion and it would not be what it is today without them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

What do you think of my proposals. Feel free to edit them and restate. —— — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 21:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Also the following based off of your suggestion is acceptable:

“Now distant from their landlords in Punjab, who were mainly Jat Sikhs, the Ramgarhia of the Brahmaputrin valley were able to enhance their previously low social status through mutually advantageous relationships with the British”

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 21:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we could mention the fact they opened Gurdwara in the region? As per the source you just linked

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 21:43, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Just has a final clarification I find the following acceptable, and true to the cited text.

The sentence:

"Free from their socially superior Jat landlords of the Punjab, the once-lowly Ramgarhia"

Should change to:

“Now distant from the Jat Sikhs in the Punjab, the Ramgarhia of the Brahmaputrin valley were able to enhance their own socio-economic standing through these mutually advantageous relationships with the British”

Or:

“Distanced from the Jat Sikhs in the Punjab, the Ramgarhia of the Brahmaputra valley were able to improve their own socio-economic standing through these mutually advantageous relationships with the British”

After edits, now pretty much the same thing. Please read the cited content, this is a better reflection of the cited content, and I hope we can please everyone and reach a good end.

Perhaps a mention as to how they mobilised Gurdwara in the region?

I.e. “.... mutually advantageous relationships with the British and the mobilisation of Gurdwara bearing their name in the region”

Sourced text: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8I0NAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA538#v=onepage&q&f=false pg. 538

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The source states:--The Ramgahrias of the Brahmaputra Valley maintained their link with Punjab, but it was differently designed. They migrated from the districts of Amritsar and Gurdaspur in the first quarter of twentieth century and settled in numerous places from Guwahati to Digboi, a distance of more than five hundred kilometers. Their numbers increased as the century rolled on. In Punjab, they stood comparatively at a lower wrung of the rural order and were called kamins (artisans) by their landlords who were mostly Jats . In the plains of Assam, however, taking advantage of Jats' absence, they managed to slip into their shoes . Their emigration to the plains of Assam offered them an opportunity for caste mobilization which was otherwise impossible in Punjab......... The new habitat also enabled them to claim a higher social Status by putting their inferior rural social position to the background. OCR Grab.My emphasis Winged Blades Godric 04:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Another source states:--The early twentieth-century Ramgarhia caste mobilization in Assam provides an interesting illustration. Like Jats, they also migrated, but their destinations as well as the nature of the jobs which they were willing to do were not always identical. As they were linked With technical jobs, Ramgarhias not only reached industrial cities like Jamshedpur and Kolkata, but also went to Assam for laying railway lines-an area missed by lat migrants owing to the lack of surface traffic. In the absence of Jats, Ramgarhias slipped into the Jat position and claimed the highest social ranking among local Sikhs which was inconceivable in contemporary Punjab. OCR Grab.My emphasis Winged Blades Godric 04:59, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * In lines with that, my version is
 * in place of the current version which reads
 * . Winged Blades Godric 04:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Thus in all effectiveness, I am in favor of adding a phrase that migrated to the Brahmaputra valley. Winged Blades Godric 04:53, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Thank you for the suggestion. However I still find the words “distanced from” or “in the absence of” to be a better reflection of the sourced material than “free of”, it also ensures the sentence will not be mis-interpreted.

For example, one may read it as the Ramgharia of the Brahmaputrin valley being slaves of their Jat landlords. I.e. A slave become ‘free of’ his master, A prisoner becomes ‘free of’ prison

I do not believe the source makes any reference to all of the Ramgharia of the Brahmanputrin Valley having all Jat landlords, they were mostly Jat according to the above source.

One source, the linked in my previous post, makes no reference to ‘landlords’ at all, it states in the absence of Jat Sikhs they were able to claim the highest social status in the local area.

I acknowledge, they were previously of low social status and were able to claim the “highest social ranking” in the absence of the Jat Sikhs as per the above source.

Hence,

The sentence:

"Free from their socially superior Jat landlords of the Punjab, the once-lowly Ramgarhia"

Should change to:

“In the absence of the Jat Sikhs in the Punjab, the Ramgarhia of the Brahmaputrin valley who were previously considered of low social status were able to enhance their own socio-economic standing and claim the highest social ranking amongst local Sikhs through these mutually advantageous relationships with the British”

Some Sourced Material Reflected in the above sentence:

“The new habitat also enabled them to claim a higher social Status by putting their inferior rural social position to the background”

“In the absence of Jats, Ramgarhias slipped into the Jat position and claimed the highest social ranking among local Sikhs which was inconceivable in contemporary Punjab.''

Thanks,

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * How'bout  Winged Blades Godric 14:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * One source is sufficient enough.We combine data from sources, without delving into synthesis. Winged Blades Godric 14:25, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Begin with the word ‘distanced’ instead or ‘free of’, ‘humble’ instead of ‘lowly’, as quoted below and I find this acceptable.

Thanks, Johnsimpson321 (talk) 14:46, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Humbled--We ain't writing hagiographic style! Low is Low. Winged Blades Godric 15:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Alright, So I take it we agree on the following?

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 15:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I am a bit hazy over distant/free and could not choose.Rest is OK to me.--Any comments? Winged Blades Godric 15:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

 * These proposals are becoming far too complex. The last one above (now last but one due to edit conflict) is a very complex statement of something very simple. We're not lawyers and we can cover the bases without so much fine print and convolution. They were low status in Punjab by any Sikh community's standards, not just the Jats; in Assam, without the Jat Sikhs being in the same localities, they were able to reinvent themselves. That last proposal is moving so far away from the basics that it is making a mockery of the situation. I think the pair of you need to rewind to somewhere around 6 or 7 hours ago above. - Sitush (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm...In fairness, mostly makes little sense.So, my new proposal stands:----How do you think? Winged Blades Godric 16:02, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand your reasoning, however I still think the following is truer to the sourced text:

As, If I remember correctly, the source stated that the Jat Sikhs migrated out of the region, as the British influence grew. (I will add the passage below shortly), hence ‘Distanced from’ or ‘In the absence of’ is more appropriate.

I also believe the passage should state they ‘mostly comprised of socially superior Jats’ as this is truer to the sourced text. Perhaps ‘a large portion of whom consisted of Jat Sikhs’. (I will again add the sourced text below shortly)

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 16:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I choose to take simplicity over your nitpicking about trivial details.No reader is going to be ever too bothered about whether our phrase means that Jats were the landlords of 100% of the Ramgarhia population or not.As Sitush said, we aren't lawyers. Winged Blades Godric 16:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand, but consider this the source states that they “mostly consisted of Jat landlords’, by simplifying we risk mis-representing the original source.

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

However after considering the above statement, if you are still not convinced, I don’t mind a compromise. To the following: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsimpson321 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Now distant from their landlords in Punjab, who were mostly Jat Sikhs, the Ramhgarhia diaspora in the Brahmaputra Valley of Assam were able to enhance their previously low social status That's all we need. The next sentence is already in the article. Let's get back to basics. There is nothing Johnsimpson321 can say that will persuade me that we need anything more, and I think Winged Blades is being sucked into a discussion of semantics that is unnecessary. I'm getting bored of this increasingly bizarre and tangled thread that, frankly, hasn't produced a single grammatically correct proposal today and seems to be a series of never-ending edit conflicts. So unless you two come to some arrangement soon you'll find yourselves in a stalemate. (You can't keep pinging people to join in etc, btw.) - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I am quite surprised to find the last sentence remaining in the current version. I seem to have been under the impression that the entire line has been removed! Bad eyes:)  But, your proposed sentence without being coupled with the latter fails to look any cohesive.So, my last proposal would be:--....the tea plantations in Assam.Now distant from their landlords in Punjab, who were mostly Jat Sikhs, the diaspora, that migrated to the Brahmaputra valley were able to utilize these mutually advantageous relationships with the British to enhance their previously low social status and improve upon their socio-economic standing to the extent of claiming the highest social-tier amongst local Sikhs.The lessons learned.... as the entire paragraph.  Winged Blades'' Godric 17:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Sitush, we should end this

Godrics orginal sentence below, is okay with me. So this is the one which will stand

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 17:19, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

 * So you agree with me and then immediately propose something else? Make your mind up, please. FWIW, I will not accept your last effort: it is convoluted almost to the point of gibberish. - Sitush (talk) 17:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Godrics last one, the one I restated above.

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Well, you did agree with me and then changed your post massively. I am fed up of this. Whatever you two decide, it will end up being as near as dammit my version within a few weeks because neither of you are writing decent English and both of you are drifting from the sources. I am out of here: fed up of you both and in particular of the extent to which you are both rapid-fire commenting here, which is effectively making it impossible for anyone else to get a word in edgeways. It's like I'm dealing with two people with ADD or something. - Sitush (talk) 17:25, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Listen, me and Godric are in agreement. This should be the final edit:

This is the last time you will hear from me.

Johnsimpson321 (talk) 17:30, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * We aint anymore.

Summary

 * I proposed Now distant from their landlords in Punjab, who were mostly Jat Sikhs, the Ramgarhia diaspora in the Brahmaputra Valley of Assam were able to enhance their previously low social status.
 * Johnsimpson proposed Distanced from their landlords in the Punjab, the Ramgarhia of the Brahmaputra valley were able to utilize these mutually advantageous relationships with the British to enhance their socio-economic standing to the extent of claiming the highest social-tier amongst local Sikhs, thus shunning their once-lowly social status.
 * Winged Blades says ....plantations in Assam.Now distant from their landlords in Punjab, who were mostly Jat Sikhs, the diaspora, that migrated to the Brahmaputra valley were able to utilize these mutually advantageous relationships with the British to enhance their previously low social status and improve upon their socio-economic standing to the extent of claiming the highest social-tier amongst local Sikhs.The lessons learned....

Now let's have no more proposals from any of us three. It has gone on long enough and at least two of the three can't keep the same proposal for more than 30 minutes without changing their mind. Someone else will turn up soon, I'm sure, and they can decide. Failing which, we'll have to go the ridiculous route of an RfC, which will be even more of a timesink and which, I know 100&, will reject two of the above simply because they are not remotely decent English sentences. The only good outcome so far is that the reason for protecting the article (ie: an alleged lack of consensus regarding reliability of the sources) has proven to be misguided. - Sitush (talk) 17:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi all, I got here having been pinged by Godric. I think Sitush's version is simple and clear. I would recommend omitting "previously low", because they were basically artisan/working class, which is not particularly low in the order of things. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * the sources quoted way, way above say otherwise. Yes, artisan (kamin) but considered low. I think for that reason, all three of the proposals have accepted it goes in, although Johnsimpson has quibbled about it on occasion. FWIW, I think utcursch agreed also. - Sitush (talk) 20:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that the source said "comparatively lower". I took it to mean: compared to the land-owning Jats. We don't know how they compare to other landless classes. I think the point that is being made in the sources is really that, they were able to claim the top rank among Sikhs, because of migration. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:08, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, in that case we should add that the Jat Sikh landlords were superior. Pending further reading (because I am fairly sure I've seen them described as plain "low") take your pick. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, it's on the same page of the same source, if you can see it? - Sitush (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, I am satisfied. :-) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:30, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I am suggesting you please merge Ramgarhia article's, Tarkhan article's, Tarkhan Punjab into one all are same castes Empire HP (talk) 05:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramgarhia#:~:text=The%20Ramgarhia%20are%20a%20community,the%20Lohar%20and%20Tarkhan%20subgroups. Empire HP (talk) 05:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan_(Punjab)#:~:text=The%20Tarkhan%20is%20a%20group,the%20Vishwakarma%20community%20of%20India. Empire HP (talk) 05:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan Empire HP (talk) 05:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

All articles merge into one Empire HP (talk) 05:48, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

June 2023
The content you are removing here, here and here are sourced. See. And this is the stable version of the article. If you want it changed you would need a WP:CONSENSUS here. Do not edit war. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:48, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 * fixed year above - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Send me your number why are u givin wrong information to all Ranveer89jng (talk) 16:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Information is sourced, and I'm keeping it that way. And if you are trying to threaten me, I'd say refrain from such activity, otherwise you'll get blocked. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:51, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh bulshit if don’t know the proper information then why are u post and edit again again
 * Ramgharia is synonymous of tarkhaan
 * and tarkhaans are mistri singhs (engineer singhs) Ranveer89jng (talk) 16:55, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia articles rely on WP:RS sources. The current content writes exactly what the accompanying source says. Wikipedia doesn't work on personal whims, mine or yours or anybody else's. See WP:V. And maintain WP:CIVIL while we are discussing. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:58, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The source page 84 specifically mentions → "...Arora, Ramgarhia (Lohar and Tarkhan), Parjapat.... Source and content matches, WP:VERIFIABILITY checked. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 * You shouldn't be editing in the middle of a discussion. See WP:EW, you might get blocked. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:06, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2024
<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 11:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC) They are also considered as jatt. Subcaste of jatt most of the surnames are common in between.
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ramgarhia


text:
Abstract Algebra/Category theory

Category theory is the study of categories, which are collections of objects and morphisms (or arrows), from one object to another. It generalizes many common notions in Algebra, such as different kinds of products, the notion of kernel, etc. See Category Theory for additional information.

Definitions & Notations
Definition 1: A (locally small) category $$\mathcal{C}$$ consists of

 * A collection $$\mathrm{Obj}(\mathcal{C})$$ of objects.

 * A collection $$\mathrm{Arr}(\mathcal{C})$$ of morphisms.

 * For any $$X,Y\in\mathrm{Obj}(\mathcal{C})$$, $$\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$ is the subcollection of $$\mathrm{Arr}(\mathcal{C})$$ of morphisms from $$X$$ to $$Y$$, where each $$\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$ is required to be a set (hence the term locally small).

These obey the following axioms:

 * There is a notion of composition. If $$X,Y,Z\in\mathrm{Obj}(\mathcal{C})$$, $$f\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$ and $$g\in\mathrm{Hom}(Y,Z)$$, then $$f$$ and $$g$$ are called a composable pair. Their composition is a morphism $$g\circ f\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Z)$$.

 * Composition is associative. $$f\circ(g\circ h)=(f\circ g)\circ h$$ whenever the composition is defined.

 * For any object $$X$$, there is an identity morphism $$\mathrm{id}_X\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,X)$$ such that if $$Y,Z$$ are objects, $$f\in\mathrm{Hom}(Y,X)$$ and $$g\in \mathrm{Hom}(X,Z)$$, then $$\mathrm{id}_X\circ f=f$$ and $$g\circ\mathrm{id}_X=g$$.

Note that we demand neither $$\mathrm{Obj}(\mathcal{C})$$ nor $$\mathrm{Arr}(\mathcal{C})$$ to be sets; if they are both in fact sets, then we call our category small.

Definition 2: A morphism $$f$$ has associated with it two functions $$\mathrm{dom}$$ and $$\mathrm{cod}$$ called domain and codomain respectively, such that $$f\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$ if and only if $$\mathrm{dom}\,f=X$$ and $$\mathrm{cod}\,f=Y$$. Thus two morphisms $$f,g$$ are composable if and only if $$\mathrm{cod}\,f=\mathrm{dom}\,g$$.

Remark 3: Unless confusion is possible, we will usually not specify which Hom-set a given morphism belongs to. Also, unless several categories are in play, we will usually not write $$X\in\mathrm{Obj}(\mathcal{C})$$, but just "$$X$$ is an object". We may write $$X\stackrel{f}{\longrightarrow}Y$$ or $$f:X\to Y$$ to implicitly indicate the Hom-set $$f$$ belongs to. We may also omit the composition symbol, writing simply $$gf$$ for $$g\circ f$$.

Basic Properties
Lemma 4: Let $$X$$ be an object of a category. The identity morphism for $$X$$ is unique.

Proof: Assume $$i$$ and $$j$$ are identity morphisms for $$X$$. Then $$i=i\circ j=j$$.

Example 5: We present some of the simplest categories:

 * i) $$0$$ is the empty category, with no objects and no morphisms.

 * ii) $$1$$ is the category containging only a single object and its identity morphism. This is the trivial category.

 * iii) $$2$$ is the category with two objects, $$X$$ and $$Y$$, their identity morphisms, and a single morphism $$f\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$.

 * iv) We can also have a category like $$2$$, but where we have two morphisms $$f,g\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$ with $$f\neq g$$. Then $$f$$ and $$g$$ are called parallel morphisms.

 * v) $$3$$ is the category with three objects $$X,Y,Z$$. We have $$f\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Y)$$, $$g\in\mathrm{Hom}(Y,Z)$$ and $$h=gf\in\mathrm{Hom}(X,Z)$$.

Initial and Final Objects
Definition An object $$I$$ in a category is called initial or cofinal, if for any object $$X$$ there exists a unique morphism $$f:I\to X$$

Lemma If $$I$$ and $$J$$ are initial objects, then they are isomorphic.

Proof: Let $$i:I\to J$$ and $$j:J\to I$$ be the unique morphisms between $$ I$$ and $$J$$. Given that both $$ I$$ and $$J$$ have a unique endomorphism because of their initiality, this morphism must be the identity. Therefore $$i\circ j$$ and $$j\circ i$$ are the respective identity morphisms, making $$ I$$ and $$J$$ isomorphic.

Definition An object $$F$$ in a category is called final or coinitial, if for any object $$X$$ there exists a unique morphism $$f:X\to F$$

Lemma If $$T$$ and $$S$$ are final objects, then they are isomorphic.

Proof Pass to isomorphicness of initial objects in the cocategory.

Some examples of categories

 * $$\mathbf{Set}$$: the category whose objects are sets and whose morphisms are maps between sets.
 * $$\mathbf{FinSet}$$: the category whose objects are finite sets and whose morphisms are maps between finite sets.
 * The category whose objects are open subsets of $$\mathbb{\R}^n$$ and whose morphisms are continuous (differentiable, smooth) maps between them.
 * The category whose objects are smooth (differentiable, topological) manifolds and whose morphisms are smooth (differentiable, continuous) maps.
 * Let $$k$$ be a field. Then we can define $$k-\mathbf{Vect}$$: the category whose objects are vector spaces over $$k$$ and whose morphisms are linear maps between vector spaces over $$k$$.
 * $$\mathbf{Group}$$: the category whose objects are groups and whose morphisms are homomorphisms between groups.

In all the examples given thus far, the objects have been sets with the morphisms given by set maps between them. This is not always the case. There are some categories where this is not possible, and others where the category doesn't naturally appear in this way. For example:

 * Let $$\mathcal{G}$$ be any category. Then its opposite category $$\mathcal{G}^{op}$$ is a category with the same objects, and all the arrows reversed.  More formally, a morphism in $$\mathcal{G}^{op}$$ from an object $$X$$ to $$Y$$ is a morphism from $$Y$$ to $$X$$ in $$\mathcal{G}$$.
 * Let $$M$$ be any monoid. Then we can define a category with a single object, with morphisms from that object to itself given by elements of $$M$$ with composition given by multiplication in $$M$$.
 * Let $$G$$ be any group. Then we can define a category with a single object, with morphisms from that object to itself given by elements of $$G$$ with composition given by multiplication in $$G$$.
 * Let $$\mathcal{C}$$ be any small category, and let $$\mathcal{D}$$ be any category. Then we can define a category $$\mathcal{D}^\mathcal{C}$$ whose objects are functors from $$\mathcal{C}$$ to $$\mathcal{D}$$ and whose morphisms are natural transformations between the functors from $$\mathcal{C}$$ to $$\mathcal{D}$$.
 * $$\mathbf{Cat}$$: the category whose objects are small categories and whose morphisms are functors between small categories.

title: Abstract Algebra/Category theory


text:
Category:User en-2

Category:User en-N: Users whose native language is English

Category:User en-3: Users with advanced and fluent level of English

Category:User en-2: Users with intermediate level of English

Category:User en-1: Users with basic level of English

title: Category:User en-2


text:
Talk:David Glen Eisley

Super Bowl Halftime Show "Sweet Victory"
Sweet Victory In The Super Bowl Halftime Show The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 02:21, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Aaaaand? There was no performance of the song, therefore he’s irrelevant to it--Fradio71 (talk) 02:38, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, There Was A Short Clip The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 02:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * And Had A Petition With A Large People Signing It The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 03:04, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * And what does that have to do with Eisley?--Fradio71 (talk) 03:14, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * He created the song, And his song was going to be a Tribute for Stephen Hillenburg in the Super Bowl The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 03:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * But it didn't happen--Fradio71 (talk) 03:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

No, They Just Show A Small Intro for Sicko Mode The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 03:53, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The clip start with Squidward starting up the trumpets and ends with comets hitting towards the stage as Travis Scott start to sing Sicko Mode The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 04:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC) Also, The Stadium Company, Mercedes Benz, Did The Song A Couple of Minutes Before The Super Bowl but the Stadium was preparing for the Super Bowl. The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 05:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC) Check out @MBStadium’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/MBStadium/status/1092225771362492416?s=09 The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 05:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah thats before halftime. Untelevised. Are we supposed to keep track of every time songs are played in a sports stadium?--Fradio71 (talk) 05:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Welp, I Learn that After The Chaos With The Halftime Show, The Dallas Stars From NHL, Played The Full Song For People Who Weren't Satisfied With The Super Bowl Halftime Show. They played it in their halftime show with all the band members wearing green. The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 00:20, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Still not going in--Fradio71 (talk) 00:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Check out @DallasStars’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/DallasStars/status/1092455235555971073?s=09 The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 00:30, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * So what? Arenas play videos all the time--Fradio71 (talk) 00:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The Arena was filled with people and no one sings in ice floor The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 00:38, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * AND? What does that have to do with anything? You're clearly not listening, just rambling--Fradio71 (talk) 00:48, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry If I'm Rambling, I just want something about the halftime show and the NHL Dallas Stars "Sweet Victory" Halftime Show The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 00:54, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Hockey doesnt have halftime shows. There's nothing notable about the occurrence. --Fradio71 (talk) 01:41, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Welp, Sweet Victory May Play In The 2019 Nickelodeon Choice Awards, So.. Let's See And Wait The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Hockey Has a Intermission and Some sort of cheerleaders. The Mysterious Man 42 (talk) 02:55, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019
Add to the "Music Career" section:

The introduction to his piece "Sweet Victory" was used in the Super Bowl LIII halftime performance with Maroon5 to introduce "Sicko Mode", which angered plenty of Spongebob fans as well as fans of the song. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 04:22, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Denied. The intro part in SpongeBob was just general trumpet fanfare--Fradio71 (talk) 04:29, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:David Glen Eisley


text:
User:Nikolai35

Hi!

My name is Nicolas Ritoux, and I'm a self-employed marketing consultant living in Saigon, Vietnam.

fr:Utilisateur:Nikolai35

title: User:Nikolai35