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Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 306

Headlines and perennial sources
Should our perennial sources list have an entry for headlines? They have been discussed a bunch of times. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:05, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I would think so, as well as for photo captions in newspapers, for the same reason these usually aren't given the same editorial oversight as the text body. --M asem (t) 16:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:12, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. WP:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_294 already seemed to come to that conclusion. Schazjmd   (talk)  16:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Not sure if the perennial list is the right venue for it. I totally support having a clearer policy statement against using headlines as sources, but I think WP:V or WP:RS would be a better place to state it. Blueboar (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment & suggestion: had expressed concern that such an entry might not fit the list format. But perhaps insert in How to use this list … after Even considering content sentence in Context Matters para: Similarly, article elements such as headlines and photo captions may not have been held to the same standards of fact-checking and accuracy as the text body, and so should be viewed cautiously regarding claims. Either there or on WP:V or WP:RS per . I believe this addresses all concerns expressed in prior discussions:, , , , . Humanengr (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:HEADLINE is a thing, it might be worth trying to get it up to a guideline. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm flexible on placement, but I think that wording (should be viewed cautiously) is too wishy-washy. It needs to be a clear-cut directive, as worded at WP:HEADLINE. Schazjmd   (talk)  18:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I included that phrase in view of objections from prior discussions, but am fine with deleting it if that's consensus. (At one point, I had it as a parenthetical.) Without it, it's effectively a shorter form of WP:HEADLINE. Humanengr (talk) 19:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This type of guideline, assuming you can get community support for it, should be incorporated into WP:RS. It would be out place in WP:RSN. - MrX 🖋 19:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Comment: I support having a clearer policy about the use or non-use of headlines (and captions) as reliable source for content. I agree with some of the others that Reliable sources/Perennial sources is probably not the best article for it to be placed in. I think A headline is not a reliable source is a good place to start for a lengthier explanation why headlines are inappropriate. I don't find a similar essay for captions. I think Reliable sources is a good target location for a paragraph about headlines and one about captions. Normal Op (talk) 21:53, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, if we must - I'm still trying to wrap my head around why an editor would use a source's headline as content. I have listed sources in discussions and used the headline as a shortcut for ID purposes but never to use as material for inclusion. Editors shouldn't have to be reminded of WEIGHT & DUE - a headline qualifies as neither; the same applies to an image caption. Atsme Talk 📧 00:36, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment, I think WP:Headlines should be expanded to include captions as the issues seem identical. Gleeanon409 (talk) 01:07, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Confusingly WP:Headlines redirects to Manual_of_Style. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:12, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops. Now goes to A headline is not a reliable source. Gleeanon409 (talk) 01:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I appreciate this page, and I've used it as the basis for suggested wording at . If the RfC passes, A headline is not a reliable source could become an explanatory supplement. —  Newslinger  talk   01:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Per others, I'd make the essay a guideline and draw attention to it where needed instead. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 13:30, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support making WP:HEADLINE a guideline, either as a standalone page or as a subsection of WP:RS. Armadillopteryxtalk 13:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This should be added into Reliable sources as a guideline, since it applies to most news sources. The perennial sources list is not the most suitable place for this kind of guidance, since the headline is not a specific "source", but an element used by many sources. As an interim step, if it's too difficult or arduous to turn this into a guideline for some reason, a section in the list similar to the ones in could serve a temporary location for this guidance. —  Newslinger   talk   01:09, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have started an RfC in the village pump's policy section to add guidance on headlines into the reliable sources guideline. Please see for details. —  Newslinger   talk   01:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

BBC HistoryExtra / historyextra.com
Is Censoring Anne Frank: how her famous diary has been edited through history a reliable source for claims about Anne Franks's sexual orientation or preferences?

I don't think there is any question about it being a generally reliable source on history, or about it being a RS about Anne Franks's diary being censored, or about the fact that some of the censored material was about sex or poop (although for some strange reason nobody is fighting to include the poop material in the article).

I fully expect at least one reply asserting that nobody is trying to insert claims about Anne Franks's sexual orientation or preferences, but the history of the various attempts to sexualize Anne Frank shows otherwise. First there was the attempt to categorize her as a lesbian. When that didn't fly the claim morphed to bisexual, then to bisexual longings. When that got shot down the claim morphed to same-sex-attraction. The coatracking is pretty obvious. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

A related question: if this source a reliable source for claims about Anne Franks's sexual orientation or preferences, do claims about sexual orientation or preferences meet the requirements of WP:WEIGHT? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Reliable for stating that same-sex attraction is discussed in the Diary, but not for applying an LGBT label ("orientation or preferences", sic.).
 * For those disinclined to read the source, the relevant paragraph is as follows:
 * Revelations that Anne Frank wrote about sexual anatomy, masturbation, menstruation, same-sex attraction and scatology [the study of faeces] complicate readers’ image of the teenage author, who spent two formative years in hiding and whose journey to adulthood was cut tragically short. (They have also fuelled censorship attempts, as when a Michigan mother petitioned for the book’s removal from a seventh-grade classroom, and when a Virginia school district began assigning a version of the book that did not include the passage about Anne’s genitalia.)
 * It seems obvious to me that this paragraph documents the fact - that no RS contests AFAIK - that frank wrote about attraction to a girl as well as a boy. I don't see why the source would not be reliable for this claim; it is already used in Anne Frank with respect to the "genitalia" material, FWIW. Newimpartial (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Reliable per above. There has to be discussion of this in the article. I don't see anything untoward about the source. Discuss the wording of how the article will phrase the issue; to omit the whole question is wrong, but labels aren't necessary either. Claims of "sexualization" are not helpful. The article's subject is a real human being not some holy chaste martyr from fable. Remember. GPinkerton (talk) 21:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Reliable and lends some weight, along with other sources which make similar claims, per Newimpartial. It should not be used for applying an LGBT label or category to Frank herself, as that claim is not made in the source. (t · c)  buidhe  22:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Reliable Anne Frank's diary should be reliable enough source for her sexual orientation. Okay for WP:LGBT to claim the article is within its perview. As for categorization, the relevant guideline is Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality: there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate. Some deceased people are properly sourceable as having been openly LGBT during their lifetimes, in the same manner as still-living people, and do not pose any special difficulties — historically, however, LGBT people did not always come out in the way that they commonly do today, so a person's own self-identification may, in some cases, be impossible to verify by the same standards that would be applicable to a contemporary BLP. For such a person, a broad consensus of academic and/or biographical scholarship about the topic is sufficient to describe a person as LGBT.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What kind of question is this? The source says: "Otto made his own cuts, too: he removed passages in which Anne was critical of her parents’ marriage, and expurgated sections about sexuality and her often brutal comments about friends, family members and acquaintances. . . . five “suppressed pages” became public [circa 2003]. . . And in 2016, conservators photographing the diary for preservation purposes realised that brown paper inside the diary was actually pasted over two pages of dirty jokes and information on sex education.[P] Revelations that Anne Frank wrote about sexual anatomy, masturbation, menstruation, same-sex attraction and scatology [the study of faeces] . . ."

 * In general, unless there is a dispute from other sources, the source says factual things that can be checked and has the indications of reliability for those statements. This source actually says nothing about her orientation. It says she wrote about, inter alia, sexuality.  You are going to have to find other RS to discuss her orientation.

 * As for weight, the source also discusses a biography of Anne Frank, look to the biography, but in general there is no reason given here not to discuss whatever the biography says about sexuality. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:12, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You might want to look at the paragraph I quoted above, which is the one relevant to "same-sex attraction". You are right that "sexuality" can mean many things, but "same-sex attraction" means rather fewer and more relevant ones. Newimpartial (talk) 13:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I quoted the "same-sex attraction" language as it appears in source, so I already looked at it. Everyone of any orientation can write about same sex attraction (as they also do about sexual anatomy, masturbation, menstruation, and scatology) indeed people of all orientations do write and talk about it.  To source what the diarist wrote about same sex attraction, this source does not give it. --  Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry I didn't see that at the tail end of what you cited (to be fair, you left it as a sentence fragment). No, this source does not suggest a sexual identity label for Frank, so it can't be used for that.
 * The piece of context you might understandably have missed, is this Noticeboard post was part of a large-scale FORUMSHOP by Guy Macon, where he keeps framing the questions in line with his Whac-a-mole stance. In this instance, the article talk page participants (and also the participants here) aren't generally sympathetic to the LGBT label idea, at least in Wikivoice, but Guy has insisted on that framing for whatever reason. Newimpartial (talk) 19:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, if the question is put differently, 'is this source reliable for a statement that the diarist covered same sex attraction, and does it lend weight to discussing that', my answer is yes, and yes (serous author, serious publication). But the details have to be found elsewhere. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:34, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Probably reliable but still WP:UNDUE, because this has always and only been a POV-push. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Unfamiliar (trendingsocial.com)

 * 1) trendingsocial.com
 * 2) To be used in Pachtaoge
 * 3) "Originally, the song was sung by Atif Aslam. However, due to ban on Pakistani artists, it was re-recorded by Arijit Singh. Later, original version was also released on public demand.". I don't know whether this source is reliable or not but I'm sure that the information, I want to add are perfectly (100%) true. And I can also prove the correctness of statement by arguments. Thank you. Tears.  Empire AS  Talk! 13:40, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Having taken a very cursory look, I would have to say no, it is not a reliable source. The website lists no formal editorial staff, and appears to simply compile trending posts from social media without any fact checking. Blueboar (talk) 01:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that it looks like a low quality source. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Al Jazeera might have published a false claim
I think it's appropriate to point out that Al Jazeera has published a claim which may be unambiguously false. In a recent report on India's military, it stated: "'First batch of five jets arrive at Indian Air Force base as world's biggest arms importer modernises its military... India has become the world's biggest arms importer as it modernises its military.' (emphasis mine)" India is not the biggest importer of arms; it's the second biggest. —  Vaibhavafro  💬 07:07, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This seems like a pretty rote error, and not really a huge deal? "False claim" seems like a pretty weird way to frame this. Parabolist (talk) 09:23, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Is it even an error? One report is from March and measures over 5 years. The other doesn't mention its source or methodology. Does this use the same data? Does it use the same approach of reviewing a fixed period? Does the announcement on July 2nd that "approved the purchase of 21 Russian MiG-29 and 12 Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft costing $2.43bn to replace obsolete Soviet-era weapons." Stack on top of their existing spend? Does the 5 year window mean that some Saudi arms deals are now out of the period of review? Koncorde (talk) 10:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Something cannot be "may be unambiguously false", [], no not unambiguously false.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Not sure this is false. India was 2nd largest over a five year period ( or ). Al Jazeera is saying that "India has become the world's biggest arms importer as it modernises its military", with the recent buys. It might be correct for 2020, it depends how and what you measure.--Hippeus (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As others have said, comparative statements like these require more than just an editor saying "wait, this contradicts that", since there's usually multiple ways to measure something (and in this case the question is over what timeframe; India is #1 if you measure from 2010 to 2019, but Saudia Arabia is ahead if you look at just a five year period, mostly due to a spike following the Arab Spring.) Beyond that, we don't expect WP:RSes to be perfect, only to be generally reliable; they should issue retractions when an error is caught or pointed out, but I can't find anything to indicate that anyone but you has noticed this (if it is even an error in the first place and not just the comparisons being apples and oranges, as others have pointed out.)  The fact that nobody else pointed it out suggests that even if it is a mistake, it is inconsequential. --Aquillion (talk) 13:29, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And there is always "it was true at some point" [], this is the kind of "factoid" that really is all very undue.Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

✅: I agree with the opinion that the error isn't very big. I thank you all for the comments. —  Vaibhavafro  💬 14:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure this is correct, I count 1 "its minor" and 3 it might not even be false.Slatersteven (talk) 14:27, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

 * It's worth bearing in mind how we use news sources. Their value is in reporting news. In this case, the Al Jazeera article was reporting an import by India while The Week's article was reporting the findings of a research institute that ranked arms importers. Neither source would be unacceptable for a claim that India was the world's largest arms importer, although the second source would be a reliable source for the institute's rankings. TFD (talk) 02:13, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

❌ - need an RfC for this source - Al Jazeera needs to be downgraded - The Jerusalem Post - "Al Jazeera violates US law by not disclosing ties with Qatari royalty", Gore had to sue them, Politico headline: "Lawmakers push for Al Jazeera to register as foreign agent", Greek City Times headline: "Al jazeera mouthpiece for turkish propaganda against greece in new film", - needs an RfC, obviously they are not generally reliable as state owned media. Atsme Talk 📧 01:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There are many state-funded media that are considered reliable like CBC and BBC.VR talk 11:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * But this one has serious issues involving US Law which really needs close scrutiny. Look at this Malaysia police raid Al Jazeera’s office, seize computers, and this Malaysian Police Raid Al Jazeera Offices Amid Probe Into Report on Migrant Workers . If our BLPs require us to adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies then the same would apply to what we consider RS for citing material we intend to include in our encyclopedia. It may even be an issue that we should bring to the attention of the WMF., please share your thoughts. Atsme  Talk 📧 22:10, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Just a note for the casual reader about that first link: Al Jazeera is not actually having any issues with U.S. law, someone at the washington free beacon (which isn't exactly given a ringing endorsement in the archives of this page!) just THINKS they should be in trouble. Parabolist (talk) 09:24, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Just another note - we don't need the Free Beacon - how about the BBC - Al Jazeera is not a RS anymore than RT is a RS. I don't particularly care for MSN but here it is. The problems aren't new as you can see in The Guardian article. And don't overlook what's happening in Malaysia - where there's smoke there is usually a fire. Atsme Talk 📧 00:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, lets take this one at a time. I have no idea what the BBC link is supposed to say, that is just the BBC's profile of what Al Jazeera is. If your contention is that Al Jazeera is funded by a government, linking to the BBC is fairly ironic. And the MSN story is them reporting that the Free Beacon reports that a former US Congressperson THINKS that Al Jazeera did something wrong. The Guardian article gets us closest to any sort of actual sourced reporting on their independence, but is just about rumors that some employees are dissatisfied. Again, none of this is about Al Jazeera having, as you said, "serious issues with US law", outside of the opinion of a former politician. Parabolist (talk) 02:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not even a profile of Al Jazeera, it's a profile of Qatar. The only mark against AJ on that page is the (accurate) assertion that they practice self-censorship when it comes to their coverage of Qatar's government and domestic issues. Nevertheless, scholarly publications have repeatedly identified it as one of the most important, albeit not flawless, media voices out there today, placing it alongside BBC and CNN on a global scale and identifying it as the standard bearer of press freedom in the Middle East. signed,Rosguill talk 21:31, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , Reporters Without Borders's response to the "smoke" in Malaysia was to unequivocally denounce Malaysia's actions as an encroachment against press freedom. signed,Rosguill talk 21:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Please answer the following questions:
 * Is Al Jazeera owned by Qatar - yes or no?
 * Has Al Jazeera faced criticism for its involvement in several controversies ranging from slanted journalism to anti-semitism per Al Jazeera controversies and criticism?
 * Does the BBC article I linked to not state the following: Al-Jazeera Arabic can be outspoken on subjects deemed as sensitive in the region. But the Qatari media observe strict self-censorship on domestic coverage and avoid criticising the state or government. Yes or no?
 * What sections in our WP article about Al Jazerra's controversies and criticism do you consider false?
 * If The Times of India is not considered reliable because a small few editors alleged that it is pro-India, and if RT is not considererd reliable because it is alleged to be a state-owned publisher of propaganda, what makes Al Jazeera any different considering they are also state-owned and self-censored, or so they claim that's all they censor? Why should we believe their claims when there are legitimate opposing views that dispute them?
 * What scholarly publications have repeatedly identified it as one of the most important, if not flawless, media voices out there today, placing it alongside BBC and CNN on a global scale and identifying it as the standard bearer of press freedom in the Middle East? Keeping mind that Al Jazeera published an opinion piece by scholar Hamid Dabashi accusing the BBC of publishing fake news. So if it is indeed placed alongside the BBC and CNN as a RS, then how are we not dealing with fake news? I have already provided multiple links showing that CNN repeatedly failed to retract false statements and errors.
 * Based on what neutral information can we present Al Jazeera to our readers as a RS they can trust for statements of fact, when we know full well the controversies that surround that network? Is the Qatari government the best representative of freedom of the press that we have, when WP itself is censoring media based on consensus discussions that raised legitimate questions as I have repeatedly demonstrated?
 * You certainly do not have to consider me an expert opinion about media, but at least show me a tiny bit of collegial courtesy by acknowledging that my questions raise legitimate concerns about this entire rating process, and the method we are using to determine what sources are or are not reliable for statements of fact. Atsme Talk 📧 22:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's funded by the Qatari government and largely maintains editorial independence, although it has been accused of self-censorship with respect to its coverage of Qatar itself by various reliable sources. Honestly I think that this is a bit of a tired argument at any rate: it should be abundantly clear to anyone that frequents this forum that government-funded publications can be reliable, and that privately-funded publications can be unreliable.
 * Politicians and pundits have repeatedly accused Al Jazeera of antisemitism; reading through both Al Jazeera controversies and criticism and Al Jazeera, as well as peer-reviewed sources linked below, the worst I see that's credibly sourced is an anti-Semitic cartoon shared on a social media account that was then taken down and apologized for, and using framing that privileges Arab perspectives on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. None of this rises to the level of something that would merit deprecation. The claim that AJ reported that Jewish employees received advance warning of the 9/11 attacks is concerning, but the way it's reported is suspicious: we have an AJR report citing a NYT editorial that criticized AJ. Where is the actual AJ article, or failing that, additional reliable coverage criticizing it? I wasn't able to find it searching online, and the accusation is puzzling given that there's a much better documented criticism of AJ's 9/11 coverage in that they gave too much airtime to  Al-Qaeda members who took credit for the attack, which is a valid criticism of their political priorities, but doesn't imply that their coverage is unreliable and undermines the accusation that AJ presented 9/11 as some sort of Jewish conspiracy.
 * I honestly don't have time to go over it in detail right now, but from what I've read, a fair amount of the controversies actually reflect well on Al Jazeera: controversies of the form of authoritarian regimes trying to outlaw the publication. Our much better-written article at Al-Jazeera doesn't include any smoking guns.
 * I don't have an opinion of TOI's news coverage–I have much more experience with their film and celebrity coverage, which is largely tabloid-level puffery. RT is actually an unapologetic propaganda outlet and has been abundantly documented as such.
 * Type "Al Jazeera" into Google Scholar and tell me what you find. I see an abundance of academic sources poring over every detail of the network's coverage, and generally treating it as a source on par with CNN and BBC. Here's some of what I found:
 * AJE's coverage, like that of any news organization, is far from perfect. It sometimes slips into cheerleading and self-congratulation, and it sometimes makes mistakes...Nevertheless, the world of news is richer for having AJE as part of it
 * Al Jazeera–the flagship media of the Arab world–has ascended to the zenith of the global market...its audience is now larger than BBC and CNN combined...Al Jazeera earned unprecedented popularity in the Arab world for its courage to challenge the Arab establishment and its role as a forum for free speech in a landscape defined by dictatorial propaganda
 * Al Jazeera has also led the way in exposing Arab power abuses...it has instilled what may loosely be described as a culture of accountability
 * The National Press Club has vouched for it, and I've already linked Reporters without Borders' vouching for it higher up in the thread.
 * I also found many more paywalled articles analyzing CNN and AJ side by side, apparently with the same degree of gravity.
 * In sum, I think that there's ample evidence that Al Jazeera, while hardly perfect, can be considered a counterpart to other international media, a peerless source when it comes to news in the Arab world, and thus a necessary component to our neutrality if we're going to continue relying on news publications as sources. It's widely used and analyzed by academics, and deprecating it would be a travesty. In the absence of a smoking gun that shows them intentionally reporting lies, I see no reason to consider it. signed,Rosguill talk 23:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * While I disagree with your position, I certainly do appreciate and respect your input. I will take the time necessary to properly review and carefully consider your responses. Happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 00:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * While I disagree with your position, I certainly do appreciate and respect your input. I will take the time necessary to properly review and carefully consider your responses. Happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 00:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Generally reliable Despite having made a few mistakes in the past, they correct mistakes and admit to them - no outlet is immune to making mistakes, it's how they handle those errors that counts. Otherwise known for balanced reporting without sensational headlines etc. Generally they produce straight news reporting with minimal bias, but I wouldn't use them for reporting about Qatar as they are a Qatari state owned outlet and have displayed a biased lack of criticism in that regard. Bacondrum (talk) 23:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Meh Jlevi (talk) 00:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Hi, I just want to address your claims about state owned media. Al Jazeera is a top tier news outlet. Many of the highest quality and most reliable news outlets are state owned. By far the most reliable sources in England and Australia are the state owned BBC News and ABC News, privately owned for profits are often far less reliable, ie Sky News, Fox News, The Daily Mail etc. Whoever owns a paper, be it a state or an individual, each outlet must be assessed on it's record for reliable reporting of fact. Al Jazeera does as well as any reliable outlet overall. Granma is a state owned mouthpiece, Al Jazeera is more akin to the BBC or the ABC, a quality state owned outlet. Bacondrum (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Human rights in Qatar - look at the section Individual rights and the subsection Freedom of expression. It is state-owned media, and a false equivalency to compare AJ to US/UK media, or to even think they have such freedom. It may well be more than the Middle East is accustomed to but it is not a RS for this encyclopedia. I'm done presenting my views - an RfC is forthcoming. Atsme Talk 📧 20:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * sounds like your personal opinion rather than evidence based criticism of the outlet which is widely seen as a high quality, reliable news outlet. Bacondrum (talk) 06:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * you wouldn’t doubt our media freedoms? Despite having 70% of our media concentrated in a virtual monopoly, in the hands of Rupert Murdoch and the Federal Police raiding journalists homes and our public broadcaster for simply doing their jobs? That surely only happens in those backwards countries, in far away lands.   Bacondrum (talk) 06:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My comments about media are not WP:OR; rather, they are evidence-based but to understand that, one must read the links I've provided in the respective discussions. Journalistic self-censorship is influenced by political ideologies, religion and/or relative laws, and that is something we should not dismiss. previously mentioned Reporters Without Borders, so in keeping my promise I did the research, and the following tells me I've been on the right track from the beginning: Media Caught In Information Warfare - Qatari journalists are left little leeway by the oppressive legislative arsenal – whose victims include the Doha News website, closed in 2016 – and the draconian system of censorship. Reporting on the government, royal family and Islam are off limits as in the rest of the Persian Gulf and violators risk imprisonment.
 * Our job is to determine what content is compliant with our core content policies on a case by case basis, with strict adherence to US Laws per BLP as to how it should be presented in an article and cited, in context, to whatever source published the information per WP:RS. Of course we should avoid poor sources and be cautious about breaking news, recentism, newsorg, notnews, redflag, label, npov, v, etc., and exceptionally so if it involves medicine or science. See What Every Journalist Should Know About Science; seek higher quality sources per WP:MEDRS.
 * The red flag waving over the reliability of Al Jazeera is the fact that Sharia Law conflicts with US Law, and Sharia Law governs Qatar and several other ME countries. The point being...while the Qatari government denies involvement or censorship in the content of Al Jazeera, their hovering presence coupled with the potential punishment for blasphemy, or disobeying the law in the ME has a chilling effect - not unlike an unspoken "offer they can't refuse"; therefore, it is not free thought. Per CJR: There are no Al Jazeera journalists reporting in Egypt - They've all been detained or indicted. “This is beginning to creep on everyone working in Egypt, this fear. I also have this sense of concern and this over-thinking every time I go to a protest,” said photojournalist Mosa’ab Elshamy, whose brother Abdullah is an Al Jazeera Arabic correspondent detained in separate circumstances. “This is the risk that everyone in general, but photojournalists in particular, are afraid of.” AP, 2013–15 detention of Al Jazeera journalists by Egypt, BBC, English-Wales source, and CPJ.
 * Self-censored is still censorship, not the publishing of free thought. See HRW: The Qatari government tells Human Rights Watch that it was not directly involved in censoring the LGBT articles, indicating that the blank pages are self-censorship based on what a publisher perceives as compliant “with the local cultural standards and expectations.” Censorship of media content because it relates to sexual orientation and gender identity violates freedom of expression when it discriminates against LGBT people.
 * Re: US media conglomerates - I've been cautioning editors about that for quite some time, and I've explained why we should hang a caution flag on all news media, political pundits and clickbait publishers on the internet. There are many more issues that face media today besides political biases as evidenced by the following excerpt from a July 2020 article published in The New Yorker:

 * I have provided ample RS throughout this discussion that corroborate my position, and there's nothing I've seen to date that convinces me to deny the facts that I've demonstrated above. Atsme Talk 📧 16:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * you seem to be arguing that any reliable based out of a country with less free press than the US should be considered unreliable. Look at this map. Your reasoning would exclude news sources from most of the world.VR talk 21:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This has become a forum discussion about US law vs Sharia law. I'm archiving it now. Bacondrum (talk) 00:19, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Usage of published books for reliable sources and fact checking
While reading Slate I encountered this:

I wonder if this quote should be noted in regards to *published books* and the need for Wikipedians to assess their accuracy. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It depends a lot on the publisher. Some books are peer reviewed, others not fact checked at all. Books are not blanket reliable or unreliable any more than websites are. (t · c)  buidhe  22:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Good point! Before I use a book off of Google Books I check the publisher. Academic publishers are typically the best. I avoid the book if I see it's self-published. I also like to use book reviews to write Wikipedia articles on the books themselves so other editors know the book's reputation. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's what I do. Once I even caught someone citing a Holocaust denial pamphlet because it was on Google books! (t · c)  buidhe  22:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * More than once, I've seen text cited to books that were just content taken from Wikipedia. I can think of a couple cases where the text in the book was actually the exact same text of the Wikipedia article it was being used to support. XOR'easter (talk) 06:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Comment: Best said here: Self-publishing "In the traditional publishing model, editors and publishers act as a filter or screen, weeding out possibly radical, badly written, or otherwise substandard content. In contrast, self-publishing enables authors to bypass this filter and sell their books directly to the public." Though written about self-publishing, with ubiquitous internet proficiency nowadays, everyone fancies themselves an authority and knows they have an audience. A writer no longer has to convince a publisher of the worth of their book. With the collaps(ing) of the printed book industry I'm sure there is less editing and oversight with books nowadays, and more willingness to take someone's manuscript, slap on an ISBN, and go with it. Wikipedia editors should evaluate the reputation of the author and not just take it for granted if a book was published by an established publisher. The older the book (especially pre-internet), the more likely there has been publisher oversight. I agree that we should probably have a caution for Wikipedia editors to do a more thorough evaluation of the author and their expertise. Normal Op (talk) 07:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Sportskeeda

 * Sportskeeda
 * Mentioned a few years ago as being unreliable Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_240

I just ran across this, noticed it's used some 1,500 times and there's been past spam cleanup. It's not completely user-edited, but close enough that I'm thinking complete removal might be best. I'm not seeing how they distinguish user submitted content from their employees'. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Religion News Service / religionnews.com
Is this page from Religion News Service...

 * Martini Judaism: Imagine Anne Frank at 90

...a reliable source for any of the following claims?

 * Anne Frank was a lesbian
 * Anne Frank was bisexual
 * Anne Frank had a same-sex attraction
 * Anne Frank's Diary contains homoeroticism
 * Anne Frank had bisexual longings

(I apologize for listing multiple claims, but as can be seen at Talk:Anne Frank the editors who wish to insert claims about Anne Frank's sexual preferences keep changing the wording, making those who oppose play Whac-A-Mole with each new way of phrasing the same claim.) --Guy Macon (talk) 03:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of reliable sources which state some or all of these. Even if you don't accept it is true: WP:Verifiability, not truth. AFAIK RNS is a fairly reliable source. (t · c)  buidhe  04:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You appear to have misunderstood the purpose of the reliable sources noticeboard. Arguments as to whether the claims are true or whether the claims are supported by other sources belong on the article talk page. RSN is for examining whether this source is reliable for this claim.
 * For example, I could ask "is the Dilbert comic strip a reliable source for the claim the Barack Obama was the 44th president of the United States?", and the answer from RSN would be "no" despite the fact that the claim is true and supported by multiple high quality sources. Please keep in mind that a source not being reliable only puts the associated claim at risk of removal if no other reliable sources support the claim (which again, would be an argument for the article talk page, not RSN). --Guy Macon (talk) 12:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think buidhe's confusion is understandable, considering that this seems to be yet another FORUMSHOP on an issue that really should be resolve-able through the Talk page RfC. Newimpartial (talk) 18:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Regarding reliability, In my opinion the specific page listed above is a lot more like a blog entry than it is like a news item, and should not be used to support a highly contentious claim about the sexual preferences of a historical figure who was only 15 years old when she was murdered by the Nazis for being Jewish. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Number one, this isn't a news item, it's an essay or opinion piece. Number two, the reliability, or otherwise, is neither here nor there for most of those assertions - the only one of the above claims that it makes is that she had bisexual longings. Surely more authoritative academic authors (academic historians) must have covered this stuff? It's a very weak source, we should be trying to reflect what real scholarship says on the subject. Girth Summit  (blether)  12:58, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Girth Summit, the passage in question states that Otto Frank edited out many passages: about Anne's conflicts with her mother, Edith; about her emerging sexuality, especially where she embraces her bisexual longings. This strikes me as a plausible interpretation well within Jeffrey Salkin's ambit as a writer, and that there should be no bar to its inclusion on WP at least as an attributed opinion. He is certainly not the only one who has advanced this interpretation of Otto Frank's redaction of the Diary, and there aren't really any reliable sources contradicting the claim, either. Newimpartial (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It's an opinion piece (the author is listed as an opinion writer) but I think, here, it fails WP:SOURCETYPES as not the kind of source usefully reliable for history. It does suggest that there are underlying sources with serious historical commentary for the redacted portions of the diary, but then those underlying sources are what Wikipedians should be looking at. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This seems like a pretty weak source for the claims. I am very concerned that a small number of editors are dredging the dusty corners of the web for anything they can find to support the content they want to add, leading to substantially undue weight on something that is simply not considered important by most sources. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * JzG, I believe the discussion here concerns the reliability of the source, rather than weight. And you have previously argued that unlike, e.g., exploration of her genitalia, which is sourced to HistoryExtra, that academic-level sourcing is required for same-sex attraction (the phrase used in HistoryExtra). This seems inconsistent and axe-grindey to me.
 * As I said at the article talk page last month, Religion News isn't a blog - it has editorial oversight. Jeffrey Salkin, the columnist who wrote the source in question, is recognized as one of the most thoughtful Jewish writers and teachers of his generation and is therefore an "acknowledged expert in a relevant field" in the sense required by WP:RS. It should certainly be RS for an attribution of bisexual longings as one of the ways the diary was understood and as a reason that material was expurgated in earlier editions. Newimpartial (talk) 18:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , assumptions of ill-faith aside, this board routinely parses out the difference between reliabilitry and due weight. In this case the reliability is marginal and there is undue weight. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:25, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Surely per policy WEIGHT can only be determined in relation to all available RS, and not only in relation to a single source? Guy Macon appears to be playing Whac-A-Mole with sources - first PinkNews, then ReligionNews, then BBC HistoryExtra - which is not an approved use of the mallet AFAIK. Newimpartial (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , WEIGHT appears to be assessed by some editors according to "how many obscure pages can we find that support the content we desperately want to add to this article, but which is not supported by any of the dozens of heavyweight sources that are devoted to the subject". Guy (help! - typo?) 10:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 * As can be seen from the above, some editors really want to sexualize Anne Frank, but this is not the correct place to discuss that. I advise completely ignoring any comment that references some other source. The poster is free to open a new section about that other source if they want to discuss whether it is reliable for a particular claim.

 * The question before us is whether Martini Judaism: Imagine Anne Frank at 90 from Religion News Service is a reliable source for claims about Anne Frank's sexual preferences. All other unrelated material should be ignored as if it had never been added. If that doesn't do the trick, we can always apply Template:Hidden archive top. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:47, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * That's some really great framing, Guy, but to answer that question accurately people really need to look at the context of your question, including the multiple discussions on Talk:Anne Frank as well as your FORUMSHOP expeditions. Whether the Religion News source is RS for a particular claim depends on what claim it is, and whether or not said claim is extraordinary. As to your assertion As can be seen from the above, some editors really want to sexualize Anne Frank, that is a personal attack and, I must say, quite beneath you as an editor.
 * If there were consensus to add material (meeting RS and DUE requirements) that Anne Frank's Diary was censored by Otto in part to keep material concerning bisexual longings or same-sex attraction out of the published work (the terms used in the two sources mentioned above), this would by no means be sexualizing its young author. However, your misapprehension, or perhaps simply unreflected opinion, on this point may go a long way to explain your desire to right great wrongs on this topic.
 * To be clear: I don't want to see anything inserted in any article that is poorly sourced or contrary to consensus. But a campaign of tireless FORUMSHOPping, personal attacks, exaggerated or misleading edit summaries and calls to arms was not how I understood that content disputes on WP were supposed to be handled. Newimpartial (talk) 20:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I don't think I've seen the term sexual preference used in earnest since the 1990s. It's good to know how we react under stress, I suppose. Newimpartial (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * —linguistic fashion aside, what difference would it make whether or not we've heard the term "sexual preference...since the 90s"? Are you making any point that is in any way relevant to this discussion? Bus stop (talk) 16:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I will just leave this here. Newimpartial (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Bus stop (talk) 20:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not my point, though. My point was that the use of the term is not just dated or "unfashionable"; it is demonstrably clueless. Newimpartial (talk) 20:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You say "it is demonstrably clueless". How? In what way? And don't link to an article. Explain in your own words how "it is demonstrably clueless". If you don't understand what someone else has said, ask for clarification. Don't just demand that they use language that suits your sensibilities. Bus stop (talk) 20:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It is an insult and a personal attack to call another editor 'clueless'. In fact, that's your third PA in just this one indented sub-conversation, . Please stop. Normal Op (talk) 07:28, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * But I didn't, though. I commented in the contribution, not the contributor. Also, are you HOUNDING me, Normal Op? Newimpartial (talk) 11:53, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hounding? Not only don't I recognize your username, but the interaction timeline tool shows the only articles we have both posted in are ANI and RSN (none of the same threads... except this one right now where I had made one single comment; this is #2) and one vote at Talk:Anne Frank RfC. Hounding? Accusing me of that is just more Disruptive user behavior. Knock it off! Normal Op (talk)
 * Recording for posterity... disruptive behavior #5... sending me a "Thanks" as a snark for my last edit. Normal Op (talk) 19:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Chartable?
Has anyone heard of this podcast measurement company? https://chartable.com/about It's being used on Potterless for subscribership data. I can't find it in our archives. —valereee (talk) 13:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with it personally. Here's the COIBot report for that domain.  Some accounts were definitely promoters and some have been blocked.  It doesn't seem to be the case for all instances though.  By a few searches the site doesn't seem very notable but just enough so some mentions and some criticism by competitors was available.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 02:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And in mainspace.   in userspace (apparent single-purpose promotional accounts).  — Paleo  Neonate  – 02:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

9/11truth.org
Can the publications of this organisation be used as reliable sources? There is some background in the discussion at Talk:List of unrecovered and unusable flight recorders. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 9/11 truth movement is considered by RS to be conspiracy theorists, so no, not reliable or usable for anything. (t · c)  buidhe  09:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

https://911truth.org/ says that the purpose of the site is "TO EXPOSE the official lies and cover-up surrounding the events of September 11th, 2001 in a way that inspires the people to overcome denial and understand the truth …" This looks like a problem with WP:TRUTH and WP:THETRUTH so it would be better to find more mainstream sources.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Clearly not a reliable source, should not be used. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

At best it could be used as a source for statements like "and 9/11truth.org has said", but then the question becomes why would we want to?Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No. If someone (as in the linked thread) asks the question "A multi-year bi-partisan investigation said one thing, but a dedicated conspiracy website that uses the Daily Mail as a source says another. How do I know who to believe?" Then the answer is unfortunately "why is this a question that needs to be asked?"
 * If we're to be as generous as possible and drink enough hand sanitizer to shut off several important parts of our brain... Even if this didn't scream "tin foil" at every opportunity, it would still just be some website. It's not clear that they maintain offices or any full time staff. Names are hard to come by, but they do list James Hufferd as their "grassroots contact". Hufferd's qualifications seem to be that he taught at a community college and "was retired a bit early for activism". Show of hands for who can guess what that's a euphemism for. He...I guess has written a few pay-to-publish books.
 * If I had to guess I would venture that this is mostly just a personal website for Hufferd. It certainly looks at first glance that they have a diverse range of contributors, but many (most?) of these pieces appear to be merely copy/pasted from other sources (e.g., consensus911.org, The New York Times, Florida Bulldog). As it's not clear if, or for that matter why these blogs/other outlets would give permission to reprint stories in their entirety, the site may also likely be rife with copyright violations.  G M G  talk  12:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Not reliable, I also dont think there views have any weight so they should just never be used off of their own page if one exists. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Why is this even under discussion? O3000 (talk) 16:06, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Because someone, over at List of unrecovered and unusable flight recorders thought it was a good source? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * They can call themselves "911 truth" but everyone knows that THE TRUTH can only be found here: BTW, "911 truth" would be a great name for a website for Porsche owners. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Seriously? No. Batshit insane, should not be used even for the primary sourcing of statements by Truthers, because that would be UNDUE unless they have been cited in RS (in which case we use the RS). Guy (help! - typo?) 10:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, the truth. Groovy. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, it has "truth" in the domain name, so I suppose. In all reality, this is as far away from an RS and you could possibly get, just blatant conspiracy theorizing. Goodposts (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No way Absolute trash. Total and utter rubbish, nothing more than conspiracy theory crap. Bacondrum (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * In future cases where a user is aware of this discussion and understands that WP:FRINGE generally expects us to cite mainstream summaries of fringe sources (if only to establish noteworthiness), further attempts to cite 9/11truth.org should result in a DS topic ban, if not a non-DS WP:NOTHERE/WP:CIR block. I'm not pretending this is some sort of policy to be given weasely arguments over but just common sense: one should remove their tinfoil hat before editing.  Ian.thomson (talk) 23:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course not, — Paleo Neonate  – 02:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Reliability of paper from probable predatory journal
The following paper, "Folk Traditions in Konstantine Gamsakhurdia’s Creative Work (Basing on the novel "Stealing the Moon")" (http://soeagra.com/ijert/ijertjune2014/1.pdf) has some information I would like to cite in Dali (goddess). Unfortunately, it's published in what looks like a predatory open-access journal, the "International Journal of Educational Research and Technology". Would it be reasonable to consider it to be a WP:SPS by a subject-matter expert? The author, Muzaffer Kır, holds a PhD in Georgian literature, has written multiple books on the topic, and at the time of publication was Vice-Dean of the Faculty of Social Science at the International Black Sea University? (He's now moved to another position at the school apparently).

The citation would support the fact that the Georgian novelist Konstantine Gamsakhurdia used mythological characters like Dali in his work. I don't consider the information to be particularly controversial, but I can't find any other sources in English that mention it. The original novel is Georgian, which I don't read, and there's no English translation available online, so I can't even cheat and cite the novel itself. Thoughts? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 * It does not appear to be predatory, because it does not charge authors for submissions. However I have been unable to find out anything about the publisher, the "Society of Education" in India. The author appears to meet rs under WP:SELFPUB, so we don't need to establish that the journal is rs. I would view it as a weight problem. So there is one reference in an obscure journal to an obscure author using the goddess as a character. Obviously it is not important to the topic and should be left out. If the article contained everything that could be reliably sourced it would run into thousands of pages. To prevent that it should only include what is seen as important in the body of the literature. TFD (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Konstantine Gamsakhurdia "is considered to be one of the most influential Georgian novelists of the 20th century," so he's hardly an obscure author. The purpose is to support the assertion that Dali remains a part of the Georgian cultural consciousness into the modern area, which is a major point of discussion in the article. But thank you for your assessment of the quality of the source itself; I think on that basis I will cite it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Comment: This certainly is a predatory journal that charges fees ("No return publication fee at any conditions.") and has typos all over their half-broken website. Also, the quote "is considered to be one of the most influential Georgian novelists of the 20th century" from the article Konstantine Gamsakhurdia was completely unreferenced. It's a somewhat dubious source. — MarkH21talk 10:48, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Question about PubChem, Sigma Aldrich and ChemSpider
Are the sources above reliable? Nihaal The Wikipedian (talk) 13:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * PubChem (US NCBI) and ChemSpider (UK RSC) are reliable. Sigma Aldrich is a private corporation (owned by Merck), so it depends on the context. François Robere (talk) 14:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Superyacht Times
Is Superyacht Times a RS, and if so, is it suitable for establishing notability when, as is often the case, it is the sole source for an article that goes beyond namechecks? Guy (help! - typo?) 11:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Superyacht Times has it's commercial section emblazoned right on the top banner, so it's somewhat akin to Realestate websites that have previously been discussed on this noticeboard. It's probably fine for noting when someone buys/sells a yacht, but not for establishing notability. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Its one of the lower quality publications that cover this sort of thing however given that it is one of the few publications in this space without a strong paywall I’d say we can use to to establish notability in most cases, they’re generally the followers not the leaders on reporting so if they’re reporting on something its likely that someone bigger and better already has as well. The exception to this would of course be interviews, which they do pretty regularly get exclusives on. One other thing to note is that the quality of work in this space is exceptional, they’re still a solid source by our normal standards and can definitely be used for establishing notability, I just wouldn’t call them the gold standard when it comes to yachts. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Jimmy Lai arrested, Apple Daily offices raided, major implications for Hong Kong news outlets
Per BBC News this is by far the biggest National Security law related story yet. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:06, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * FYI Apple Daily is a major paper with its viewpoint in opposition to the HKSAR government. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:53, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, the implications are simple. Any China-based news source, Hong Kong or otherwise, that publishes anything the Chinese Communist Party doesn't like, is subject to this kind of treatment. We should adjust our policies accordingly. Adoring nanny (talk) 22:41, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My position a few days ago on this was “wait and see,” well now we’ve waited and seen and its bad... Very bad... The "Hong Kong exception” to Chinese media being generally unreliable seems to be at an end. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Open-access website-based opinion polls
Hey there, I would like to ask for fellow editors' opinions on the issue of website-based opinion polls. To be clear as to what I'm talking about - I'm referring to Open-access polls held entirely online, trough an internet website that is freely and readily accessible to the general public and of which no reputable polling agency has methodological control.

I am specifically not referring to polls conducted online when organized by a reputable polling agency, which has pre-selected the poll's participants offline beforehand according to proper methodological standards.

I've seen this type of polling used more and more and have now alarmingly found them used, sometimes even being given more prominence than other official sources in articles detailing opinion polls relating to national elections. The problems with open-access website-based opinion polls (which I'll reffer to as OAWBOPs for brevity from now on) are as follows:

- OAWBOPs are unrepresentative of demographic characteristics. Accessing a OAWBOP requires both access to and knowledge how to use a computer or other smart device, as well as the internet. This skews results in favour of the younger, more well-off and city dwelling demographics, to the exclusion of more elderly, poorer or rural demographics, which may not have the same access to technology and know-how.

- OAWBOPs are unrepresentative of the general population's political opinions, as a WBOP is held only among the visitors to a perticular website. This could mean, for example, that a poll on a far-right website could 'predict' a landslide victory for a far-right candidate in a general election for no reason other than the fact that the website attracts that specific voter bloc to itself. The same could be said about a leftist/centrist website, or a website that caters specifically to pro or anti-government viewpoints - the editorial viewpoints or caterings of the website in question create extreme sample biases.

- OAWBOPs are usually conducted by individuals or organizations with no knowledge of proper statistical methodology and as such, are prone to include many methodological errors - such as biased sampling, insufficient sample sizes, confirmation biases, etc.

- OAWBOPs allow for manipulation on the side of users, which can vote multiple times in one opinion poll by using tactics such as IP switching (either trough router resets, VPNs or other proxies, etc), cookie resets or internet brigading organized on online message boards.

- OAWBOPs allow for manipulation on the side of poll organizers and administrators, as when placed under no professional scrutiny, they could easily alter the results of the poll by specifically excluding certain answers, selectively enforcing voting criteria or just manually adjusting the results of the poll.

Even if both the administrators and participants of the poll are not actively trying to manipulate its results (which usually cannot be ascertained), there are many serious methodological pitfalls that can result in gross statistical misrepresentations simply due to the medium used and self-selection of study participants. As noted in the Open-access poll article, these types of polls are usually referred to as "Voodoo Polls" due to their serious methodological problems, ease of manipulation and general unreliability. You can read more about this here from Cambridge.

As such and after having made my position on the issue clear, I would like to ask for other editors to provide their own opinion and decide as to wether or not WBOPs deserve to be treated as RS. I offer the following options:

Option 1 - Treat WBOPs as generally reliable and allow their use in articles as factual statements of popular opinion

Option 2 - Treat WBOPs as generally unreliable and avoid their use in articles as factual statements of popular opinion, instead encouraging their replacement with polls conducted by reputable agencies

Thank you for your attention. Best regards, Goodposts (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I just ran an online poll on this, and exactly 100,000 responses agreeing that we should allow online polls as sources came in in the first two minutes. Now, a week later, it is 100,003 to 47. If that doesn't convince everyone, I don't know what will. :) --Guy Macon (talk) 17:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 * In 2012 Mountain Dew had an online poll to name a new apple-flavored beverage. The top results were:
 * Hitler Did Nothing Wrong
 * Gushing Granny
 * Fapple
 * Diabetus
 * Soylent Green
 * Moist Nugget

 * Taylor Swift ran an online poll to choose a school she would perform at. The winner was Boston's Horace Mann School for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing.

 * Britain's Natural Environment Research Council ran an online poll to name a polar research ship. The winning name? "Boaty McBoatface"
 * --Guy Macon (talk) 17:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Moist Nugget reminds me of another interesting poll result. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 12:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Option 2. I think what you are asking is whether or not we use the results of such polls uncritically and to present data in Wikipedia's voice.  I would be opposed to doing so with the caveat that where such polls have become themselves the commentary of reliable sources in a widespread and frequently reported way, i.e. Boaty McBoatface, then we should of course reflect the well-covered nature of such items in due course, but those will be exceptional cases and as a matter of practice, uncontrolled internet polling done outside of the confines of well-respected public polling firms should not be given any weight at Wikipedia.  -- Jayron 32</b> 18:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Option 999999. Never under any circumstances include web-based polls in any context whatsoever unless they have been reported on by multiple reliable sources independent of the original publisher. Remove all such polls on sight and blacklist if necessary. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Wen Wei Po
Which of the following best describes the reliability of the reporting of the Wen Wei Po? has been cited around 440 times on Wikipedia.

 * Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
 * Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
 * Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
 * Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail --Adamant1 (talk) 03:20, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Survey (Wen Wei Po)

 * 3–4 based on Newslinger and Adamant comments below. (t · c)  buidhe  04:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 *  4  3-4 Extremely limited press freedom in China, serious questions raised about the papers credibility, appears to be a mouthpiece for Beijing. Claims have been raised about significant interference by the CCP in the past and has also been accused of publishing falsehoods. Bacondrum (talk) 23:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3 or 4, see explanations given before the survey was created. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 *  2 or 3: RSes say that it is state-owned and advocates for the Chinese government, so there are legitimate press freedom / editorial concerns. I haven’t seen RSes say that they publish false or fabricated information though, just a single blog post. — MarkH21talk 00:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC); updated !vote to remove 2 after seeing some of the examples 00:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 4 Due to lack of press freedom from being owned by the Chinese government. Along with printing false and intentionally negative stories. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:07, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3 This article on Wikipedia by Ta Kung Pao (which has merged with Wen Wei Po) fails to understand that several Hong Kong opposition figures were indeed born in British Hong Kong which is why that is reflected in their infoboxes, apparently suggesting that this is a "criminal offence" which is totally bizarre. Both papers are controlled by the Hong Kong Liaison Office, an organ of the PRC government. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:38, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4: At most it may be served as sources for quoting pro-Beijing voice. Many of their reports are lacking of neturality Universehk (talk) 22:41, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4: Most of their articles contain obvious point of view speaking out for pro-Beijing parties which totally lack neutrality. -- SUN8908 ── Talk 11:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4: We are talking about a firm that calls foreign reporters as "foreign commanders" of the protests. All state media from China is unreliable. OceanHok (talk) 05:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 4. Propaganda publication controlled by a PRC government organ. Prefer SCMP over this for China topics. feminist (talk) 01:41, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 4+. Wen Wei Po reports often deliberately misinterprets evidence to advance a pro-CCP, anti-democrat point of view. I'd put them in a category worse than UK Daily Mail. Deryck C. 18:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (Discussion moved to below)
 * Option 4. Per the above. I'm surprised the nom hasn't started a survey on Ta Kung Pao. Should probably do that too. Flickotown (talk) 07:10, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes please! WhisperToMe (talk) 16:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Option 4 per Adamant. Cavalryman (talk) 13:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC).
 * 3 or 4. Occasionally can be used with attribution (for non REDFLAG claims). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 4. Propaganda outlet. Jayjg (talk) 17:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion (Wen Wei Po)
Hello. I'd like to know the general notability of the Hong Kong newspaper Wen Wei Po since it has came up in AfDs a few times and I'd like to add it to the list of perennial sources. The Wikipedia article for it says it's a pro-Beijing news outlet and there was a post about it on Reliable Sources Noticeboard here back in 2011 that generally seemed to agree. The last noticeboard discussion only had a few participants though and from reading it over the consensus that it's not reliable doesn't seem conclusive. So, I'd like a more definitive answer as to what it's reliable for, if anything. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Bias is not an issue.Slatersteven (talk) 12:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Call it lack of neutrality then. I don't really care because it's just splitting hairs over semantics. People here know what makes a source reliable or not. I don't feel the need to spend 50 thousands words making sure I get every single nuance of what makes a source reliable or not perfectly correct. The import thing is if Wen Wei Po can be used as a source and for what. Which every can judge, whatever term I use. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What makes an RS is accuracy, so they tell porkies?Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Obviously. Which bias has something to do with. Especially in relation to Chinese sources and Hong Kong. I'm not the judge of if they toll lies or not. That's on people who comment to decide. Although, personally I don't think they are 100% accurate with topics related to Hong Kong, but my opinion doesn't matter here or I'd just be having this discussion alone, with a wall. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:25, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose RfC. This is just a general reliability question, and doesn't need an RfC. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Should I change the title to be a regular discussion then? Tbh, I wasn't sure what the difference was. --Adamant1 (talk) 15:58, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * An RfC is used for calling for a sources deprecation, or for blacklisting or classification as generally unreliable. This is so we can get the view of people from all over the Wiki, and not just those who regular this page. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I changed the title so it's not an RfC. Since that doesn't sound like what I wanted to do. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:09, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Emir of Wikipedia is being somewhat misleading here. Emir of Wikipedia really doesn't like the concept of depreciation and I understand his perspective. However calling a RfC doesn't mean that the source must be unreliable, though obviously calling a RfC on an obviously reliable source like the NYTimes would be pointless. A RfC means that the discussion will get a formal close and verdict, and can be added to the reliable sources noticeboard immediately. Admittedly I don't think that your RfC was properly formatted. has been cited signficantly more than the Apple Daily has, with around 440 citations. I would recommend pinging the participants of The Apple Daily RfC, as they will probably be familiar with this source, as well as leave a link to this discussion on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Hong_Kong Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The top of this page says "Requests for comment for deprecation, or for blacklisting or classification as generally unreliable of sources that are widely used in articles, should be registered here using and should run for at least 7 days. Contentious RfCs should be closed by an uninvolved administrator and consensus assessed based on the weight of policy-based argument." Even if my views on deprecation are well known they were not why I was against the RfC. In my view an RfC to call people from around the Wiki, whereas this whole page is for discussing sources. I agree that the WikiProject would be a good place to get other views on the matter though. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:57, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would support an RfC if were interested in restoring the RfC tag. RfCs are intended to solicit participation from a broad section of the community. The 2019 header text RfC endorsed the use of RfCs on this noticeboard for questions of general reliability. RfCs do not necessarily have to propose deprecation; they can ask any question as long as the statement is brief and neutral. For regional sources such as Wen Wei Po, an RfC would attract more opinions from editors who are not normally involved in the Hong Kong topic area. —  Newslinger   talk   02:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright. I changed it back to an RfC. If that's what would allow it to be listed in WP:RSP then I'm for it. I don't think it would get many comments in the Hong Kong Wikiproject anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:15, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you please also follow the instructions at WP:RFCST? You'll need to write a brief and neutral statement at the top of the discussion, then apply the tag. Please see this RfC for a commonly used example of how the RfC can be formatted. —  Newslinger   talk   02:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Done, I think. Let me know if there's anything else I need to do. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:22, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks great, thanks. I've sectioned the discussion, since none of the existing comments specify an option. —  Newslinger  talk   03:51, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The main problem is with Wen Wei Po is a lack of editorial independence. Personally I would never use it and I’d probally seek to remove or replace it if I came across it but I think they’re a 3 not a 4 on our traditional scale and as such WP:DEPS seems a bit too far, generally unreliable is accurate as far as I understand. If anyone has clear cases of pushing false and misleading information I would be willing to reconsider. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You said here not a 4 but your !vote includes 4? — MarkH21talk 00:54, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There was no survey at that time. The responses which followed mine did in fact include cases of pushing false and misleading information (hadn't seen the Baltic stuff before, that was atrocious). I still have some reservations about deprecation hence the 3 or 4 instead of a straight 4, but I would take that with a grain of salt because I know my personal bar for deprecation is higher (or lower depending on how you want to conceptualize it) than the vast majority of wikipedians. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 14:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Apple Daily is the third-most credible paid newspaper in Hong Kong (with a score of 5.71/10) according to a 2019 Chinese University of Hong Kong survey of the public. The same survey listed Wen Wei Po as the second-least credible paid newspaper in Hong Kong (with a score of 3.43/10). As Apple Daily is considered a marginally reliable source, Wen Wei Po is likely either marginally reliable or generally unreliable. —  Newslinger   talk   02:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I found an article here about them mocking the conditions in Baltic states. Along with this article on how they printed a fake story about rioters burning down a building. They have also printed fake pictures. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:27, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Medium stores aren't exactly the most reliable sources themselves. Chess (talk) (please use  on reply) 06:09, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Medium is a blog host. We would need RSes about fake or fabricated reporting to deprecate. — MarkH21talk 01:03, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The source in question here is literally owned by the Chinese (Communist) central government and should be examined in that context. That being said, them being viewed in a poll as one of the least credible sources in Hong Kong needs to be considered in the context of the change of many people in Hong Kong towards an anti-Beijing point of view, which means they'd view pro-Beijing sources as unreliable. Heck We shouldn't be so easily dismissing a state media organization as "generally unreliable" due to bias or occasional government interference. The CBC, BBC, or whatever else "public broadcasters" have pretty intense biases of their own and have been interfered with despite nominal editorial independence. Heck NPR now has less than 50% of Americans considering it "credible" and was actually the least trusted news outlet out of 9 major ones in America. By the same logic since NPR gets their money from the US government and is generally considered unreliable by Americans we should be treating it as an unreliable source. Chess (talk) (please use  on reply) 06:09, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Press freedom is a factor that many editors consider when evaluating reliability. China's #177 ranking ("very serious situation") out of 180 countries in the 2020 Press Freedom Index is a strong negative indicator of the reliability of Chinese media sources (the largest of which are state-owned), and makes it unsurprising that the issue of press freedom is raised in just about every discussion on Chinese sources. The phrase "occasional government interference" severely understates the extent and scope of censorship in Chinese media. It is a false equivalence to compare NPR to Chinese state media in light of the United States' #45 ("satisfactory situation") ranking on the 2020 Press Freedom Index. Also, the NPR is primarily funded by non-government sources; see  for details. —  Newslinger   talk   07:26, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Press freedom is certainly a relevant factor. But China's ranking in the 2020 Press Freedom Index isn't the directly relevant ranking. The newspaper is in the jurisdiction of Hong Kong, which is ranked 80th out of 180 in the 2020 Press Freedom Index (above countries like Israel, Brazil, Philippines, and India). It's controlled by the Chinese government, which is a separate factor, but for Press Freedom Index purposes it's in Hong Kong. — MarkH21talk 00:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd be interested to know how much autonomy a journalist working for the Chinese government has when they are working outside of China. My guess is not very much. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, I would guess the same. But that’s due to them working for the Chinese government rather than the Press Freedom Index of the newspaper's jurisdiction. The source from Wen Wei Po says that at the very least, the Chinese government reduced its control over the newspaper. — MarkH21talk 01:08, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That could be relevant for articles produced around 1997 (as the book was published then). It might help to find sources that describe the publication after 1997. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:38, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Comment This paper is in Hong Kong, where better alternatives exist, so I have no issues with it being labeled unreliable. However, for mainland China topics I think we will have to accept newspapers with slightly lower standards, lest we risk massive systematic bias. All domestic sources are going to be at least somewhat pro-CCP (or they wouldn't be allowed to exist), so banning all pro-CCP sources would have the effect of requiring all mainland China topics to be covered in international media before we consider them notable. -- <b style="color:red">King of ♥</b><b style="color:red"> ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 20:26, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Just FYI the “independent” media in mainland China isn't allowed to do original reporting, they can only do synthesis and rewrites of pieces from the major government news sources. There is no such thing as investigative journalism as we would recognize it in most of the world in China. We have almost the same problem with other single party states like North Korea, Eritrea, and Syria... We should have a single rule for the eleven or so single party states not some special exception for China. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

As an FYI I found that it is designated as a "questionable" source on the Chinese Wikipedia zh:Wikipedia:可靠来源/常见有争议来源列表 WhisperToMe (talk) 19:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing this! I was not aware that Chinese Wikipedia community had their own perennial sources list. It's interesting that they have settled on a five-tier system that is similar to a proposal on the English Wikipedia that did not get adopted, although I don't currently see any sources in the Chinese list that are classified as "very reliable" (level 5). It looks like Hong Kong Wen Wei Po (香港文汇报) is classified as "no consensus, unclear, or other considerations apply". I'm not sure how the Chinese Wikipedia's reliability standards compare to ours. —  Newslinger  talk   05:43, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Wen Wei Pao and Ta Kung Pao are owned by Ta Kung Wen Wei Media Group, which is belong to Chinese Government, and they have some sort of similarity in content. Therefore I believe that both newspaper shall have same rating.--Cmsth11126a02 (talk) 15:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

(Moved from Deryck's vote above)
 * Examples of Wen Wei Po fabricating false reports, mainly to defame the pro-democracy camp (Hong Kong):
 * Wen Wei Po reports often deliberately misinterprets evidence to advance a pro-CCP, anti-democrat point of view. I'd put them in a category worse than UK Daily Mail. Deryck C. 18:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And if people want examples of really biased articles that I'd point to the TKP editorial on Wikipedia. If you know of some other examples of misinterpreted evidence it would be great to post those. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:31, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Wen Wei Po accuse pro-democratic having election fraud in 2019 district council election without evidence.--Cmsth11126a02 (talk) 14:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (July 2020) Another example: WenWeiPo accused Nathan Law of advocating Hong Kong independence despite that never having been his policy platform, and alleged that his former political party Demosisto had embezzled HK$5M of donor money without providing any evidence. I can keep going. Deryck C. 16:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Please do! Those are definitely examples showing that deprecation is a good idea. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (August 2019) WenWeiPo fabricated lies about the 1989 Baltic Way that are so inflammatory that the government of Latvia summoned the Chinese ambassador in protest. (Commentary by User:Yuyu, who is also a Hong Kong journalist )
 * (August 2019) Wen Wei Po fabricated a report that Hong Kong Journalists Association was selling press passes for HK$20 a piece
 * (October 2019) Fabricated report of arson of a pro-Beijing politician's office Edit: WWP's article may have been misleading but the outright lie came from a downstream reuser. Bad choice of example on my part. Deryck C. 00:57, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (April 2020) Wen Wei Po accused Sha Tin District Council of misappropriating public funds to support "riots" without evidence
 * (July 2020) Wen Wei Po fabricated stories about "Demosisto overseas support groups" and accused Joshua Wong of embezzling Demosisto funds to purchase properties for himself, of course without providing any evidence --Deryck C. 16:31, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! To add to the links, here are the articles from the Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian newspapers discussed in the Medium post:
 * https://www.postimees.ee/6772004/hiina-valitsuse-ajaleht-monitas-balti-riike-korrumpeerunud-poliitikud-naeruvaarsed-palgad-ja-rahvuste-vahelised-konfliktid (Estonian)
 * https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/arzemes/kinas-laikraksts-honkonga-izsmej-baltijas-valstu-neatkaribu.a331452/ (Latvian)
 * https://news.err.ee/978249/daily-china-s-state-owned-newspaper-criticizes-baltic-states
 * https://www.lrt.lt/naujienos/news-in-english/19/1095753/china-newspaper-mocks-baltic-states-for-squalor-and-ridiculous-wages
 * Also this is the Wen Wei Po article in question that the Baltic governments took objection to: http://paper.wenweipo.com/2019/08/24/WW1908240001.htm (I compared the text with the one in Medium)
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 17:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A poor example. Under their header "「香港眾志外援小隊」WhatsApp 群組不存在", The Stand literally cites denials from Wong himself as "evidence" to refute the claims: ，有人「別出心裁」地以「眾志張飛」的名義散播言論, and our own lede describes The Stand as a "pro-democracy online news website", and the outlet was itself engaged in veritable defamation of CY Leung. Caradhras Aiguo ( leave language ) 17:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right, I've partly misinterpreted the Stand News article. WWP might not have been the originator of the "overseas support group" lie. I've struck out the part of my comment. Deryck C. 22:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The October 2019 blog post on Medium is about a photo from the CNS being misleading and says that the photo was not in the Wen Wei Po article. — MarkH21talk 00:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You have a valid point; this is probably in the "misleading sensationalism" rather than "outright lie" category.
 * The August 2019 article regarding the Baltic Way was also an editorial rather than a news report. — MarkH21talk 00:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Opinion pieces are not exempt from requirements of factual accuracy when determining the reliability of a publication. Deryck C. 00:57, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I generally judge reliability only on a publication's factual reporting and treat its opinion/editorial articles separately (with opinion/editorial being subject to WP:RSOPINION).— MarkH21talk 03:46, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Famous Birthdays (again)
Should we depreciate Famous Birthdays website? it is unreliable because of the severe violations of biographies of living persons policy. It also had been blacklisted from Wikipedia since 2019. --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 00:23, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There's no need to do this as a a blacklisting effectively supercedes a deprecation. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Deprecate (not depreciate). --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Popular Science magazine
We currently have over 1,000 citations to Popular Science per but it has never come up on this noticeboard before. I think their health section, which makes up a large proportion of their content, comes under WP:MEDPOP and therefore doesn't pass WP:MEDRS. As far as their other magazine content goes, it seems much less in depth than coverage in other popular science magazines or the science sections of major newspapers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Does not meet the requirements for WP:MEDRS. I just looked and the first two health articles I saw are based on dodgy sources that would never pass Wikipedia's standards. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I enjoyed reading this magazine when I was younger, and it has a long and storied history. However, a lot of its content is fairly speculative or based on predictions about the future, which must be attributed to the people who made them, if experts in the field. Content quality may have also deteriorated in the last decade. I agree it doesn't meet MEDRS. (t · c)  buidhe  03:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Gallery: The Flying Cars of Popular Science -Guy Macon (talk) 04:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Generally does not meet the WP:MEDRS standards - I think that popular science publications, while useful for digesting academic information to the general public, should not be used to establish medical facts. There are peer-reviewed journals that publish high-quality scientific papers for that. WP:MEDPOP is quite clear that popular science publications are generally not acceptible as sources for medical claims. They can, however, be used in addition to more serious scientific publications, to provide reading synthesized material for readers outside of academia. So that's the exception I'd say we should stick to. Goodposts (talk) 20:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Does not meet the WP:MEDRS standards The above comments make the case as well as I could. XOR'easter (talk) 06:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Does not meet WP:MEDRS requirements. Given the huge number of top notch WP:MEDRS-compliant sources out there on any medical topic, I don't see why it would be needed to support any medical claims. Jayjg (talk) 20:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

RFC: Kimba the White Lion and YourMovieSucksDOTorg
There's an RfC regarding Kimba the White Lion that users might be interested in. © Tb hotch <big style="color: #555555;">™ (en-3). 23:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Is Nonie Darwish a reliable source?
Is Nonie Darwish a reliable source? The following content was restored by who claims Darwish is reliable:

I strongly believe that Darwish is not reliable. Darwish has no scholarly credentials. Additionally, Darwish is a highly WP:QUESTIONABLE source: VR talk  18:02, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Georgetown University's Bridge Initiative, says "Nonie Darwish has numerous affiliations with anti-Muslim organizations, has made false claims about Islam, and has called for Islam to be 'annihilated.'"
 * The Intercept reported that Darwish has stated Islam should be feared, and should be fought, and should be conquered, and defeated, and annihilated. It also called Darwish "anti-Muslim".
 * The Southern Poverty Law Center describes Darwish as "anti-Muslim activist".
 * The New York Times reported that Darwish said, "A mosque is not just a place for worship. It’s a place where war is started."
 * Further evidence of Darwish's extremism:
 * The Southern Poverty Law Center describes Darwish as not only "anti-Muslim" but also "anti-Arab". It quotes Darwish as saying "Lying and slander is an obligation in Islam."
 * Professor Deepa Kumar in Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire p. 183 writes "People like Gabriel play an important role in the Islamophobic network - they legitimize the racist attacks on Muslims and Arabs...A whole slew of people, mostly "ex-Muslims," have a played this role of legitimation. One such ideologue, Nonie Darwish..." The book seems to have received positive reviews from several professors: Gilbert Achcar, Hamid Dabashi and Arun Kundnani.
 * VR talk  23:03, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * None of the points above makes her an unreliable source. An unreliable source is only a source that does not reliably do fact-checking. Her opinions do not constitute a valid argument against her reliability and she is perfectly entitled to think whatever she wants about Islam or have all the affiliations she wants to have. I invite you to have a look at Reliable_sources. --Grufo (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Per WP:BIASED, if editors agree that the information is WP:DUE, I would use inline attribution to cite that claim to Darwish. I wouldn't use Darwish to state something as a fact in wikivoice. Schazjmd   (talk)  18:21, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Editor seems to believe that all sources critical of Islam or openly anti-Islamic should be considered unreliable per se, and this is not the first source he removes only because of that. So I don't think the point discussed here is so much about Nonie Darwish, but it is more about creating a precedent. His activity is a bit like if I started to remove all Islamic sources that talk about the Quran labeling them as "biased" arguing that only atheists can be neutral about the topic. --Grufo (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * do you believe Darwish is a WP:QUESTIONABLE source, which includes sources expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist? I would think Darwish's opinion that Islam be "annihilated" would be considered "extremist".VR talk  18:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Grufo that's totally disingenuous, you aren't quoting her for her attributed opinion, your using her a source in Wikivoice. Have any other sources corroborated this allegation? Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not using her and I am not the one who inserted her among the sources. I am only contrasting the idea that having anti-Islamic positions makes a source automatically unreliable. Every time a source is removed I would rather prefer to read an explanation about why the facts stated are dubious or even just a mention to the author's bad reputation concerning fact-checking, rather than using his/her political or religious views as an argument. --Grufo (talk) 19:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Grufo, you clearly used Darwish as a source to insert the content. Do you now agree that Darwish is an unreliable source and content sourced to her should be removed? VR talk  19:53, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's quite a stunt to state that a revert in a page where I had never intervened before is equal to “using a source to insert the content”. --Grufo (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , do you consider Darwish a reliable source for this content you inserted or not? A "yes" or "no" would be quite helpful.VR talk  20:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * just a point of order, when you revert a removal you take responsibility for what you reverted back onto the page. Please review WP:BURDEN. There is no stunt being puller here. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment Being described as "anti-Muslim" is not the same as being actually unreliable. Quite the opposite in many cases. I don't see any reason why the claim is controversial, though a better source can certainly be found. GPinkerton (talk) 20:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Exactly, I would have said the same thing if Pinkerton hadn't commented first. (t · c)  buidhe  20:30, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * wouldn't you agree that antisemitic sources should considered un-reliable? How is a source that is described as "anti-Muslim" and calls for the annihilation of Islam any different? Does WP:QUESTIONABLE not say that sources with "extremist" views should not be used? VR talk  20:37, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a fallacy of false equivalence. Antisemitism is not about criticism of Judaism as an ideology, it's about racism towards Jews. Calling for the annihilation of Islam is in no way comparable to calling for the annihilation of Jews, which of course the article's subject did on a regular basis, and his devotees continue to do to this day. GPinkerton (talk) 20:48, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * How is "anti-Muslim" not equivalent to antisemitism? VR talk  20:52, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Antisemitism is based on race, not beliefs, so it is not an acceptable position (and by the way, Arabs are Semitic people too). And yet, even an antisemitic source can be reliable as a source sometimes. Furthermore, while antisemitism is unacceptable, anti-Judaism for example is a perfectly acceptable belief. --Grufo (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you can acknowledge the equal humanity of Muslims and Jews and other groups then you should be able to acknowledge that anti-Muslim is just as extremist as antisemitic.VR talk  21:06, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not at all. You really love, fallacies, don't you? Having a negative view of a religion does not mean judging its believers. One can think that the Bible and the Quran are mental masturbations (or worse) and at the same time suspend every judgement about their individual followers. --Grufo (talk) 21:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No-one - except the antisemitic Ayatollah - is denying the humanity of anyone. Being "anti-Muslim" has nothing to do with denying anyone's humanity. It has to do with denying the validity of belief systems - which are mere ideologies. GPinkerton (talk) 21:38, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, Islamophobia is a real phenomenon that has claimed the lives of many innocent Muslims, just as antisemitism has. Darwish has been called both "anti-Muslim" and an Islamophobe by many sources.VR talk  22:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Islamophobia is often used as a scare word to stifle legitimate criticism of Islam. Criticism of Judaism is also widely practiced without being antisemitism. Criticising a religion or ideology is very different than demonizing a race or ethnic group (which is what antisemitism does); however, Muslims are not a race or ethnic group. (t · c)  buidhe  22:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , Do you agree that demonizing Muslims is as extremist as demonizing Jews? VR talk  22:28, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you now going to claim Darwish is responsible for a "list of Islamophobic incidents"? Or are you going to present some reason why you have been unable to provide any source that so much as backs your claim that "Darwish has been called both "anti-Muslim" and an Islamophobe by many sources". Your NYT article does not in any way support any of your claims; the SPLC describes her as "anti-Muslim" but not an Islamophobe; neither does The Intercept use the word. Nor indeed does the Georgetown University Bridge Initiative, it merely states that another advocacy group had labelled her a "validator" in what they call "Fear Inc". Nothing about any of this supports your idea that Dawish means that "anti-Muslim is just as extremist as antisemitic". Are you really supposing that criticism of ideology is equivalent to antisemitism? You are apparently arguing for WP:CENSORSHIP of all views opposing the Dear Leader. No demonization is mentioned anywhere. GPinkerton (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I'll just point out that there is a not so fine line when it comes to being anti-Islam and Islamophobic or anti-Muslim as some like Maajid Nawaz (who I think balances the issue properly) prefer. Yes, improper accusations of Islamophobia exist but that does not void the existence of the phenomena.

 * Certain views of Islam (not necessarily Muslims) such as viewing it as "static and unresponsive to change" do indeed veer into Islamophobia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#Contrasting_views_on_Islam]. Nonie Darwish is not so different form Raymond Ibrahim [who is regarded as unreliable) or Robert Spencer (same as Raymond and he's referred to as anti-Muslim by RS). Anti-Muslim or not they are clearly unreliable and if these are the best sources you can muster up for "academic" criticism of Islam, I'll point out that you are standing on thin ice (for the record I believe better sourced criticism exists).
 * As for the comparison with anti-Semitism I'll point out that many anti-semites strongly deny being called such and instead insist on being seen as anti-Judaic or critics of the Talmund or whatever part of Judaism or Jewishness they detest. The line is not as clear-cut. Despite these protestations, they are usually classified as anti-Semites. When you have people calling for the annihilation of a religion, for example "Judaism should be annihilated" especially when backed up by some kind of activism, you are being extremely prejudiced even if you clarify that you have no issue with individual believers per say. Plus, how is religious based prejudice less worse that ethnic prejudice? I'll also clarify that that the legacy of anti-Semitism has certainly been much more destructive than other types of prejudices. Nevertheless, two wrongs don't make a right. Islamophobia exists and is wrong even if it doesn't reach the level of anti-Semitism. I'd wager that most people with anti-semitic beliefs have never harmed a Jew, neither have most people who are anti-Muslim ever directly harmed Muslims, but that doesn't change their anti-Semetic/Muslim beliefs which builds up towards mainstream acceptance of these views.
 * Coming back to the topic, it is quite clear that Nonie Darwish is an unreliable source except perhaps for her own views on her own page.
 * P.S. Anti Semitism does not refer to prejudice against Arabs. Just check the freaking red clarification on the top of the talkpage of the anti-semitism article. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * “Nonie Darwish is not so different form Raymond Ibrahim [who is regarded as unreliable) or Robert Spencer (same as Raymond and he's referred to as anti-Muslim by RS).” This confirms my suspect that all that (and the anonymous IP address that often accompanies him) wants with Nonie Darwish is creating a precedent in order to remove all the anti-Islamic sources “as such”, independently of the context or the content . As I had already explained in Talk:Islam and blasphemy – the place where they removed Raymond Ibrahim and which is the reason why the IP address can now state that Raymond Ibrahim “is regarded as unreliable” – personally I am not a fan of conservative folk like Ibrahim, but defining him “not reliable source” to my eyes would require more than an editor's personal dislike due to political or religious disagreements. --Grufo (talk) 23:59, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Grufo, they can each independently be established as unreliable as can some other unreliable anti-Muslim sources I can think of who have not been mentioned or cited, for example: . My comment was directed at you in particular, knowing that you were familiar with the previous example of Raymond Ibrahim. Eperoton was the one who cast final judgement on Raymond Ibrahim, remember? Is he in cahoots with us too? VR even challenged you to take him up on this noticeboard but you refrained from pushing the issue. You really think this precedent for removing obviously biased sources was hatched up a few days ago by me and VR? Check the talk-pages on Islam related articles and you'll see such sources routinely removed except on the persons own articles or when they are overlooked. These articles are meant to provide a holistic overview of various topics by reliable academics. They aren't meant for naked polemicism by unreliable authors and this hold true for religions other than Islam as well. For all your talk of being a progressive atheist, every single source you defend (i.e when you present sources at all) turns out to be either non-scholarly and extremely POV or misquoted with OR added in. By now you simply seem to be engaging on a quest to Right Great Wrongs which is quite unconstructive. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * “Eperoton was the one who cast final judgement on Raymond Ibrahim, remember? Is he in cahoots with us too?”
 * Of course not, is only a user you had invoked via private message in your support, and nevertheless has demonstrated good balance in his interventions.
 * “all your talk of being a progressive atheist, every single source you defend (i.e when you present sources at all) turns out to be either non-scholarly and extremely POV or misquoted with OR added in”
 * You should have said “all your talk … and every single source you defend turns out to be conservative”, it would have been much stronger and more effective. And indeed this is what progressive people do, they oppose the fact that a political or religious opinion may constitute a prejudice towards a person, independently of his/her views. The fact that not all of them are academics and some are just book authors is definitely not an argument for being considered unreliable. We are still talking and yet I have not heard one single argument why these right wing people that love to spend their time focusing on the rotten parts of a religion are unreliable “per se”.
 * “These articles are meant to provide a holistic overview of various topics by reliable academics”
 * I agree with the claimed approach (although journalists and authors can be very reliable too). And indeed I tend to be the one who fights to save content that you and Vice regent want to remove, remember?
 * --Grufo (talk) 00:50, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * "nevertheless has demonstrated good balance in his intervention"
 * Yes that's precisely why I called him and what unbiased editors do. He's an experienced and neutral editor. I most certainly did not invite him for "my support" although yes he did tend to agree that your edits were against WP. He's much politer than VR and I, no doubt. But he clearly cautioned you a number of times about the usage of the Quran, about secondary sources, about Ibrahim and much more, all of which you have chosen to deliberately ignore or pretend not to hear.
 * 'conservative' Many of the sources above can very well be described as "Far-right" (note: Far-right does not necessarily mean neo-Nazi), so this is not just your garden variety conservatism were talking about Grufo. RS claim that many of these people are considered prejudiced against Muslims i.e anti-Muslim, their own denials notwithstanding.
 * "rotten parts of a religion are unreliable" Polemicism is by its very nature unreliable Grufo. Despite being authors Richard Dawkins is not a reliable source on Christianity in general, Israel Shahak not on Judaism and the sources above not on Islam. Simple. You have not really provided any evidence that these sources are reliable and the onus really is on you. Where are the academics and why not rely on them?
 * Regardless of how much you claim to have progressive leanings, the proof is in the pudding or rather your edits I should say. I'm sure you received your information on Islam from secondary sources as well. Which ones I do not know but can probably guess they would not be described as "progressive". Your claim that progressive people should not be biased towards people or authors who are known to have problematic views is a moral abomination as well. Should we really be completely unprejudiced towards people with anti-semetic/Racist/Islamophobic/etc views when they are discussing their pet peeves? In any case, this is not really relevant to WP. Eperoton has said in no certain terms that Raymond is unreliable as is his publisher. What more do you want? Do you dispute this?
 * "journalists and authors" Depends on whom your talking about. Might as well have said people can be very reliable too.
 * "who tends to fight to save content" Yes, yes I remember Saeed and your well cited edits over at Islam and Blasphemy. First impressions are lasting ones... and I've responded to your added or "saved" content on the various article talkpages as have others. We can keep that discussion there.  <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 01:34, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

“Many of the sources above can very well be described as "Far-right"”
 * As I said, a political position has nothing to do with being a reliable source or not. Being a reliable source means only doing the due fact-checking and stating the truth.

“Polemicism is by its very nature unreliable Grufo”
 * This is quite an empty sentence that can be read in many ways. Thanks to a lot of polemics we invented secularism, democracy, and many other things. And yet polemicism can also be an empty tool for not going behind the form without ever touching a content. It is interesting that rhetorical fallacies are often used in support of empty polemicism. I'll leave to the reader to check where and by whom rhetorical fallacies have been used in this multifaced discussion.

“Your claim that progressive people should not be biased towards people or authors who are known to have problematic views is a moral abomination as well”
 * I never said that, I think we all are biased. For example I am biased against who thinks that a political position is enough to judge the honesty of a source about a particular fact without any further check. And as I already mentioned before, in this particular case I have also the bias of suspecting that you and Vice regent want to create a precedent for denying the reliability of anti-Islamic sources “as such”, which I find unacceptable. To make a parallel, without anti-Christian western authors we would not have reached the progress and the freedom that we have reached so far.

''“Eperoton has said in no certain terms that Raymond is unreliable as is his publisher. What more do you want? Do you dispute this?”''
 * What I said so far applies also to, who has not argued in favor of his statement enough for “a normal time”, let alone for an ongoing dispute, and I would have argued way longer than he did if I was him. And yes, of course I “dispute that”, since no exhaustive motivation was given. I never agreed with the removal of Ibrahim, I only happened to become minority in that discussion.

“I remember Saeed”
 * Again, I did not remove Saeed, I removed an ideological statement that used Saeed as support reference. I thought you had understood that by now.

May I ask you why you still refuse to create a Wikipedia account, especially given that your IP address always changes? --Grufo (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * The source of the claim is Tahrir al-Wasilah, and this issue recieved extensive discussion on that articles talkpage over a decade ago. There are loads of translations but obviously all the parties who are translating the text have an incentive to spin it a certain way to either defend Khomeini or condemn him. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Darwish also claims on the same page that "Khomeini didn't just make this stuff up. Mohammed was practicing thighing with Aisha at age six and consumated the marriage at age nine". Is this a mainstream scholarly view? Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I get that it's the traditional date according to hadiths, but quoting it as is without question makes me suspect that this is not a particularly scholarly account. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don’t believe that anyone has ever claimed that Nonie Darwish is a scholar or that their work is academic in any way. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Tahrir al-Wasilah sounds like a WP:PRIMARY source. A reliable English-language secondary source would avoid the whole issue of "spin". The job of interpreting hadith and Tahrir al-Wasilah belongs to reliable, secondary sources. We need to mainly resolve whether Darwish a reliable source. (I could go into my own personal analysis of the WP:PRIMARY texts, but that would be WP:OR).VR talk  21:38, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The book publisher Thomas Nelson appears to be christian focused, and the book was largely ignored outside christian circles, with the only reputable review I can find originating in city journal. If we are going to make claims that Khomeini endorsed pedophilia we are going to need a better source than this. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:43, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hemiauchenia, coming back to Nonie Darwish, can you unambiguously clarify if she's a reliable source for articles on Islam in general. I think you can save us a lot of text here. (apologies if this comes off as a bit rude, the problem is on our end) <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Not reliable for statements of fact about history. First, it's not the case that a source is assumed to be reliable unless proven otherwise. On the contrary, we need to establish "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". For a history book, we generally do that by looking at the author's scholarly credentials, such as peer-reviewed publications on the subject, or at the publisher. In this case, the author is not an established historian. The publisher specializes on religious content, and I don't see evidence that they have a reputation for fact-checked publications on history, as university presses or some other publishers have. As another editor noted, given the wealth of academic publications about Khomeini, if the statement is accurate, it shouldn't be hard to find it in a RS. Eperoton (talk)
 * Eperon, there are quite some syllogistic fallacies in your comment. First, we are not discussing Nonie Darwish' reliability as a source because not “proven otherwise”, we are discussing her reliability because Vice regent explicitly asked us to discuss about it. Second, she qualifies as a writer, not an academic, so measuring her academic achievements is out of place. Third, I have only heard so far discredit about her publisher or prejudices about her views as disappointed ex-muslim and yet I have not heard anything about her alleged lack of fact-checking or dishonesty. I have the diametrical opposite political views of Darwish, especially concerning her endorsement of the state of Israel, I would have zero interest in the average titles of the Thomas Nelson publisher, and yet I still defend her right not to be prejudiced for her beliefs and her right to be judged only on the facts. Fourth, the editor specializes exactly in history books together with Christian-focused books. --Grufo (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, to establish a source as reliable, we need to establish its "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Being a writer doesn't establish one's book as being a RS for history, not does being published. The onus is on those who seek establish reliability, not vice versa. Of the things that we normally look at to establish reliability for a history text, I see none of them here. Where do you see that the publisher specializes in mainstream history books? The religious nature of their publications is stated explicitly in their mission: "Thomas Nelson is a world leading publisher and provider of Christian content. [...] Thomas Nelson is committed to one central mission: inspiring the world by meeting the needs of people with content that promotes biblical principles and honors Jesus Christ." Eperoton (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Reliable, though I'm not opposed to in-line attribution. I agree with, , and here; just because a source is critical of Islam as an ideology, it doesn't mean it's Islamophobic (the same goes for criticism of other ideologies). There is a major difference between "demonizing" and "criticizing", and unless we know for certain that the author has a particular agenda here, I don't see why we can't use a book that's been released by a reliable publisher. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I only see one reason for reliability in your statement above, that the book has been published "by a reliable publisher". The publisher is Thomas Nelson (publisher) and their most famous book has been subject to criticism. They publish books on trying to prove the infallibility of the Bible. So I ask you once again,, are all books published by Thomas Nelson reliable?VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 11:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Defining a publisher that has been existing since 1798 as “unreliable” only because it focuses on Christian books is quite a bold statement. To give you a parallel example, the Vatican Publishing House is a very reliable publisher. --Grufo (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * G. P. Putnam's Sons is a reputable publisher, doesn't mean that Chariots of the Gods? isn't total nonsense. Non-academic publishers like the big 4, (which Thomas Nelson is a subsidiary of, as part of HarperCollins) are interested in what sells, not what is scholarly and accurate, see Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_298. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:19, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Vatican Publishing House books may be reliable for views on the Catholic church, but I doubt we'd use in the article on evolution.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 14:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Why? Unlike many other religions people, Catholicism accepted evolution as fact more than a century ago. GPinkerton (talk) 15:31, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * See this discussion I had with . Stuff published by the Vatican Publishing House could be reliable for views of the Catholic church, but it would not be a reliable source for factual statements in most fields, like anthropology, evolution, Islam etc.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 16:10, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * While I haven't read through the entire discussion here, between Darwish's questionable credentials and the questionable status of the publisher, there's absolutely no way we can cite this kind of statement to her. If it's true, why are these low-quality sources the only sources that talk about it? Shouldn't reliable sources have said somrthing? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:30, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I found this book ("Refuting the Anti-Israel Narrative: A Case for the Historical, Legal and Moral Legitimacy of the Jewish State" by Jeremy Havardi; pubisher: McFarland) saying something similar to what Nonie Darwish claims:
 * Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That quote contradicts what scholarly sources have said about minimum age for marriage in Sharia. I don't think Jeremy Havardi is a reliable source on Islamic jurisprudence. His book makes many mistakes when talking about Islam.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 11:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This controversy is also mentioned in Khomeini's book: "The book has been the target of some polemics by some critics of Khomeini, owing to certain passages which seem to sanction sexual practices with minors, including toddlers"; although the source for that passage doesn't seem to be currently working. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You can't source wikipedia especially if that content is likely original research.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 11:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * “You can't source wikipedia”: You have . --Grufo (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe this is a link to Khomeini's book (Tahrirolvasileh) where he said this, but I'm not sure. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe this is a link to Khomeini's book (Tahrirolvasileh) where he said this, but I'm not sure. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

The second incident is referenced in this Yahoo story which notes that the sponsoring organisation is ACT! for America which SPLC describes as a hate group. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Nonie Darwish isn't a source - she's an author. The source we're talking about here is her book, Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law, which appears to be published by a respectable publisher. A quick Google check tells me that it appears in the reference list of at least one academic monograph, Global Jihad in Muslim and non-Muslim Contexts by Jonathan Matusitz of the University of Central Florida, but I haven't read the book and can't see exactly how it was treated by that work. I'm not an expert in this field, but I'd be leaning towards saying that this looks like a reliable source, as far as our guidelines are concerned. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:52, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Jonathan Matusitz seems like a pretty controversial figure himself, per the Orlando Sentinel: "Matusitz’s views on Islam have generated controversy before. In 2013, the Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations accused him of teaching anti-Muslim bigotry and asked UCF to review the content of Matusitz’s courses. Later that year, he was the featured speaker at an event called “The Islamic Threat to America" in Viera. The American-Islamic advocacy group described the organization that sponsored the event as “an anti-Muslim hate group” and asked Brevard County not to allow it to use a commission meeting room."
 * as said in WP:SOURCE? the reliability is affected by the author. And being quoted by an academic source is not an indication of reliability, as I have seen academic books use wikipedia as a source and we know that WP:UGC is definitely not reliable.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 14:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , huh? Which academic books use Wikipedia as a source? Just so I can make sure never to buy from that publisher... Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  15:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This book and this book, both by Springer Publishing, and this book by Routledge. I have also seen this done by books published by various University presses. Once I find them, I'll message on User talk:Girth Summit.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 15:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , jings. Bit of a red flag. I guess I won't be able to avoid Springer entirely, but seriously, that's pretty poor. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  15:25, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This discussion of publishers is a red-herring; things are not automatically reliable when published by a particular corporation. GPinkerton (talk) 15:31, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

is correct, in the general sense - we don't just look at the publisher to determine reliability (I've seen some terrible rubbish published by otherwise respectable presses.) I've just looked into Thomas Nelson a bit further though, and it is giving me pause. The first sentence of their company profile runs thus: Thomas Nelson is a world leading publisher and provider of Christian content. Looking at their publications, they mostly appear to be bibles, bible study guides and the like, but they also have a non-fiction bookstore, which exclusively sells... well, I find it hard to describe. Let's call it Christian stuff. I'm starting to lean away from my earlier position - perhaps this is a piece of polemic, written by a campaigner, and published by a company given over almost exclusively to... Christian stuff. What we want is scholarship, and this is looking less like that to me now. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether) 16:33, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Would not her books be considered biased sources? Per Biased or opinionated sources: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. Bias may make in-text attribution appropriate" Dimadick (talk) 17:33, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Arb Break (Nonie Darwish)

 * Darwish's twitter account certainly is... something. "Is Corona the First (grand scale) Biological World War orchestrated by globalists and China? Sure looks like it" "Must read! Many white girls are seduced into transgender! Being a victim has become the only thing to aspire for in America today!!!!! White girls want the victimhood status so they choose to be transgender!" I would place about as much trust in her words as I would those of Alex Jones. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:17, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

A quote from Darwish this 2018 journal article "... in Cruel and Usual Punishment, Darwish avows that Muslims “are incapable of feeling compassion toward non-Muslims. Acknowledging  compassion to non-Muslim oppressed minorities is grounds for apostasy. A Muslim must stay hardened and unyielding”"

I think literally suggesting Muslims cannot feel emotion is quite beyond the pale, especially considering the quote is from the exact same book we are talking about. Kevin Parker (New York politician) in a 2011 letter to chair Greg Ball (politician) asking to disinvite Darwish, cited her describing Islam as "not a true religion" and Obama as a "political muslim". Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The claim that Obama is a "political muslim" is from this article in Media Matters for America by our old friend Max Blumenthal. While I have immense distaste for his current output, I think he is reliable in this instance as the article provides a audio log as well as a transcript. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This definitely convinces me that Darwish' political position are among the most horrible political positions one can have today. It does not convinces me though that this would make her an unreliable source, especially considering the fact that she seems saying the truth about Khomeini endorsing pedophilia. Dan Fincke (an atheist), reports a quotation of Khomeini given by Maryam Namazie:
 * "A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister… It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

 * On the other hand Kaveh Mousavi, another atheist who lives in Iran, reports this other quotation, adding that Dan Fincke's translation “actually waters down what Khomeini has said” and Khomeini endorsing pedophilia “is quite public knowledge among Iranians”:
 * "Whoever has a wife under nine years old cannot penetrate her, whether she is his permanent wife or his temporary wife. But other forms of sexual pleasure are allowed, such as lustful touching, embracing, or rubbing the penis on the thigh of the girl, even if she is an infant still. And if the baby’s vagina is so badly damaged that the bladder and urethra “become the same”.he penetrates her before she is nine year old, and her hymen is not broken, he has only sinned, and if he has only sinned, but if he has, then she will be forbidden to him forever, and [he has to pay for her her entire life (I summarized here)]"

 * It seems that these are all quotation from a speech, not a written document. But even just by google-translating this original page from the series of documents (Tahrir al-Wasilah) posted by it appears something like: A woman who has not reached puberty yet (i.e., she is not yet nine years old) takes no decisions in divorcing from her husband – implying that she can already be married when she is nine years old. But of course we cannot rely on Google Translator and I cannot speak Farsi. --Grufo (talk) 23:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The main issue is that all sources that are translating the Khomeini document are a. Ideologically opposed to Khomeini. and b. have no expertise on islamic jurisprudence. I think that her stating that "Muslims are incabable of feeling" (a statement that is obviously false to any rational human being) in the same book that the quote comes from means that an alternate source should be found, and regardless of the outcome of whether the text stays or is removed it should not be cited to the book. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Being ideologically opposed to Khomeini is quite a symptom of good mental health. In any case, if the pages posted by are really the original Tahrir al-Wasilah I think the question about Khomeini endorsing pedophilia is quite closed. I have nothing against finding different sources, but I am definitely against erasing the truth. --Grufo (talk) 00:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Patheos piece states that: "Khomeini was by no means a lone voice on this. Actually, these views are still quite dominant among the Shia clerics I know of." and "on many issues Khomeini was a progressive for his time, and the fact that he seems so ancient and fundamentalist now is a testament of the great progress of the mentality of certain parts of Iran." but Patheos is a really marginal source for claims like this as it is a self-published blog. I would really want an impartial academic scholarly source. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:40, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * “Khomeini was by no means a lone voice on this. Actually, these views are still quite dominant among the Shia clerics I know of” sounds like “Other stuff exists applied to a dictator”. Pedophilia was already defined internationally at the time of Khomeini, so no, I would never agree that Khomeini “was a progressive for his time” – and let's not forget that he stopped an actual socialist revolution that was happening before him in that very same place that Patheos seems to describe as so backward. Italian neo-fascists still say to defend Mussolini “…But trains were always on time when there was him”. I am sure that with a little bit of research we can find something good that even Khomeini did. --Grufo (talk) 00:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources considers Patheos "generally unreliable" and to be treated as WP:SELFPUB. I don't see any reason to consider either of the two pieces reliable.VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 01:33, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Keep in mind this discussion is whether Nonie Darwish is a reliable source. If there are other sources they can be presented and discussed at Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini. 's comment here hints at Grufo no longer defending Nonie Darwish as reliable. do you still consider Nonie Darwish to be a reliable source? If yes, what is your reason? VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 01:37, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * “Grufo's comment here hints at Grufo not considering Nonie Darwish reliable”
 * Last time I checked I had a mouth to express my own opinions, I am quite sure I did not need to signal or “hint” them.
 * “Grufo do you still consider Nonie Darwish to be a reliable source? If yes, what is your reason?”
 * You might have missed it since it was an explicit statement and not a hint: So far yes, because she seems stating the truth and the only arguments used against her so far are her political opinions, or her positions against Islam's teachings, or what she believes the latter might provoke in people's empathy.
 * --Grufo (talk) 02:11, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Per WP:RS, you need to demonstrate that Nonie Darwish has a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", regardless of whether you think she is telling the WP:TRUTH. Do you believe Darwish is considered an expert in Islamic jurisprudence? Do you think Thomas Nelson (publisher) a reputable publisher on Islam related topics? VR <b style="color:Black">talk</b> 02:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If Khomeini really didn't write this in his book and Nonie Darwish is making it all up, then Darwish's source would indeed be a problem. Is that the case though? An author doesn't need to be an expert in Islamic jurisprudence to make a note about what Khomeini wrote in his book. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:49, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There are a number