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Talk:Rajput/Archive 19

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'''DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.'''

This archive page covers approximately the dates between 17/Feb/2006 and 20/Mar/2006.

Requests for arbitration/Rajput
The arbitration committee has reached a final decision in the case associated with this article.

For the arbitration committee. --Tony Sidaway 22:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) (and all sockpuppets) is banned from editing Rajput and related articles.
 * 2) (and all sockpuppets) is banned from editing Rajput and related articles.
 * 3) (and all sockpuppets) is banned from editing Rajput and related articles.
 * 4) All users listed as the "Hindus only side" at Requests_for_arbitration/Rajput/Evidence are banned from editing Rajput and related articles.
 * 5) All editors of Rajput are reminded of the necessity to more or less follow the core Wikipedia policies of Neutral point of view, Verifiability, and Citing sources. Advocates of an Islamic point of view are specially reminded that Rajput is a noble Hindu caste and that the bulk of the information in the article should reflect that reality.

Any party banned by this decision who violates the ban may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeat offenses. After 5 blocks the maximum ban shall increase to one year. Blocks are to be logged at Requests_for_arbitration/Rajput

move and move back
The old article was entitled 'Rajput', but instead of dealing with all Rajputs generally, it dealt only with Rajputs as a Hindu caste. Not only that, but it also had a very slanted POV.

So I moved the old article, unaltered, to Rajput (Hindu caste).

This new article is intended to deal with all Rajputs in general, and not just those who subscribe to one particular religion.

--Bhola 19:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Bhola, that's grabbing the article for one side of the dispute, with a vengeance. Even though Shivraj and his buds are banned, I think they must represent a fairly widespread view in contemporary India, riven as it is by communal controversies. Their view should be represented. Zora 20:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Aha. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, and didn't realize how long and heated the debate over this article has been. In haste, I took the advice of be bold in updating pages without reading the discussion and history of the page. I didn't mean to grab the article for any side of the dispute, nor was my move motivated by any vengeance towards anyone. I don't know Shivraj or his buds and didn't intend to exclude anyone's views. That's why I didn't make any changes to the article when I moved it. For the record I still think that moving this existing communally-exclusive article was a good idea, as was the idea of starting a new non-communal 'Rajput' article at this location. Bhola 21 February 2006

 * Furthermore, you give absolutely no references supporting your claims to such huge Muslim Rajput populations. Zora 20:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * You're right that I didn't cite my references but it seems to me that a great deal of claims are made by other contributors to this article who don't give any legitimate references either. Are the claims that I made any less credible than theirs? Do my claims need to be singled out for special scrutiny while theirs don't? Nevertheless, I can cite my references if you're interested. I got my figures from sources that I thought were reputable, such as 'The Historical Atlas of South Asia' edited by Joseph Schwartzberg (Oxford University Press, 1992), and from official government publications from pre-partition British India, like 'The Imperial Gazetteer of India' (1909-1922) and from portions of the Ethnographic Survey of India (another official government project), such as 'A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province' (1911-19) and 'The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh" by (1896). The data in all of those books come from the results of censuses. Bhola 21 February 2006

 * Bhola -- if you've got real references, great. They have been in short supply here. Give figures, dates, and then footnote with the exact source and page where you got them. Then if others disagree, they have to come up with competing references. We don't need to come to conclusion -- we can just say "these references imply A and these references imply B" and let readers draw their own conclusions. Zora 03:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why it is imagined, at this point, that the main Rajput article will reflect only the PoV of those who have been banned yesterday. Extremely counter-intuitive --- anyway, IMO, it is possible to write an eminently NPOV and understated article, making mention of "Muslim Rajputs" while keeping within the Arbcom's admonition that "Advocates of an Islamic point of view are specially reminded that Rajput is a noble Hindu caste and that the bulk of the information in the article should reflect that reality". Let us work on that, and abandon this unwarranted fork. ImpuMozhi 21:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

hm, what's going on? where are all the talk archives? Why the wild forking? I am hoping we will have a chance of disecting the issue in peace now and pinning the various aspects of the term into neat sections, like butterflies, just like we boring encyclopedists like our material, neatly labelled and spread out. "The Rajputs are a noble Hindu caste and that the bulk of the information in the article should reflect that reality" indeed. I think this is undisputed. What we need to do is cleanup the unorganized state of the article, and minimize overlap between this article and the related History of Rajputs and Rajputs and invasions of India. More than half of the present article can be deleted as already covered there. Please do not refactor this article without taking these sub-articles into account also. If we keep Muslim Rajputs as a separate article, it needs its own short section here, and will be a sub-article of this one. dab (ᛏ) 14:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ah, the archives are now at Talk:Rajput (Hindu caste) thanks to the kneejerk fork. They should be merged back here. dab (ᛏ) 14:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Please use your divine admin powers to undo Bhola's rename and move, which was done without any consultation with other editors. Zora 18:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I moved it back and merged the talk page histories. dab (ᛏ) 21:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Tidy up
I am wondering. This article is focussing on Rajastani exploits of rajputs, but we know rajputs had kingdoms in Punjab also and if we were to include ALL such exploits for fairness then we would have an overly HUGE page. In it's present form it's already too long and not enough elaboration on an actual rajput and the different clans. We could possible include where each tribe ruled majorly in it's times instead as a reference rather than an entire 'article within an article'?

Im also removing the point that no further Muslim conquests took place in the 9th century due to the formidable reputation of the rajputs as there is no proof of this from the middle eastern side to corroborate this, so it's more a 'proud assumption' rather than proof I think? Please feel free to correct me guys. I've also done a tidy up of 'language' in the history section of where unencyclopedic words such as 'treacherously' and 'crushed' have been replaced suitably.

Can other editors help in this respect with other sections?

Looking better guys, let's keep up the good work.--Raja 22:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We need to cast this into Summary style. This is the main article and should give easy access to all specialized Rajput-related sub-articles. Specifically, it is about the people (ethnologically). Material already at History of Rajputs and Rajputs and invasions of India should be very briefly summarized, with the use of main. Please do match the content of this article to the content of the history articles and see how this article may be shortened without loss of information. dab (ᛏ) 22:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Resigning Wikipedia membership
I am resigning my wikipedia membership effective immediately.

Rajputs remember a few things:

 * Arbcom has decided against me NOT BECAUSE OF THE CONTENT OF RAJPUT ARTICLE but how I dealt with the intervention of Bachman. Arbcom DOES NOT DECIDE ON THE CONTENTS OF THE ARTICLES. So is communicated to me by Charles Matthews of Arbcom.

 * Also for the record Arbcom never asked me to provide any evidence against Bachman. Infact no body from the rajput side presented any evidence at all. Arbcom unilaterally decided based only on Bachman's one sided evidence! Also at one point arbcom considered desysopping Bachman.

 * Bachman has a racist mindset as is evident from his comments here so do not let him bully you:

 * Bachman,Zora and in general the entire muslim side operates without references and pushes references without having read a single one of them.

 * References on the rajput page (look for my last save) are pretty much complete.

 * Impumozhi is another person who reads a few websites and thinks he is an expert. See his blatant lies discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rathore. Read the entire section of the heading "Impumozhi is a liar". So do not let him have a free reign on rajput related articles.

 * Lastly these were the pages on my watchlist and it would be nice for one of the fellow rajputs to look after them.

 * Akbar
 * Ala ud din Khilji
 * Alwar
 * Aryan invasion theory
 * Aurangzeb
 * Babur
 * Bagelkhand
 * Baghel
 * Banaphar
 * Bappa Rawal
 * Bhadail
 * Bhaduria
 * Bhatti
 * Bika
 * Birgoojur
 * Chandela
 * Chhatarpur
 * Chittorgarh
 * Dahia
 * Deora
 * Dhandhul
 * Dogra
 * Durga Das Rathore
 * Gaddi (ethnic group)
 * Gahadvala
 * Ganges River
 * Gogunda
 * Hada
 * Hammir Dev Chauhan
 * Idar
 * Indo-Aryan migration
 * Jadeja
 * Jaitawat
 * Jasrotia
 * Jauhar
 * Jhala
 * Jodha
 * Jodhpur
 * Kachwaha
 * Kalyanot
 * Kanhad Dev Songara
 * Karnot
 * Katoch
 * Kayadara
 * Kheechee
 * Khokra
 * Klaus Klostermaier
 * Kshatriya
 * Kumpawat
 * Lalitaditya Muktapida
 * Maharaja Jaswant Singh
 * Maharana Hammir
 * Maharana Kumbha
 * Mandu
 * Maratha
 * Martial Race
 * Max Müller
 * Mewar
 * Mirabai
 * Mori
 * Muhammad of Ghor
 * Narwar
 * Paramara
 * Pathania
 * Pattan
 * Pokhariya
 * Prithviraj III
 * Prithviraj Raso
 * Pundir
 * Pundri
 * Raisen
 * Rajasthan
 * Rajawat
 * Rajpipla
 * Rajput
 * Rajputana
 * Rajputani
 * Rana Hamir
 * Rana Pratap Singh
 * Rana Sanga
 * Rani Padmini
 * Rao Ajay
 * Rao Asthan
 * Rao Doohad
 * Rao Jodha
 * Rao Maldeo Rathore
 * Rao Shekha
 * Rao Sheoji
 * Rao Shiva
 * Rao Sonag
 * Rathore
 * Rawal Ratan Singh
 * Second Battle of Tarain
 * Sher Shah Suri
 * Silhadi
 * Singh
 * Sisodia
 * Solanki
 * Songara
 * Taraori
 * Tikka
 * Tomara

Shivraj Singh 02:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Its a sad day in the history of the Rajputs. Sisodia 02:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

the arbcom found,
 * The ip addresses used by Shivraj Singh created, , . and.

so, do you mean "resign", or "change socks"? I am tired of being called names over upholding WP fundamentals, either here or on my talk. Could someone bother removing the PAs above? dab (ᛏ) 18:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Sock puppets are back
The sock puppets of old have returned it appears. Can something be done about this as it's not progressing the article at all.

I've removed some bias propoganda material at the end of the article re Muslim conversion as it is irrelevant and antagonistic here. Also contained points that Hinduism was solely saved by rajputs which is in my opinion insulting to the non rajput hindu populace as well as a baseless assumption.

Cross references to other rajastani rajputs is also something I think should be removed as they have their own articles. We can provide names as references instead as a link? They take up too much space and are tainted with propoganda. (Why not mention all of the hundreds of other Rajput kings in that case? Im not recommending this, but displaying my point)--Raja 15:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Featured article
This article definitely has the scope to become a featured article. However, massive cleanup of the article is required. --Spartian 17:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * quite massive, yes. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

images
This article is supposed to be about a people, right? Caste, ethnicity, nation, whatever. I note that there is no single photograph of a person. Instead, people seem to prefer to add architecture, statues and heroic drawings on postage stamps. I happened to add a 19th century photograph of actual Rajputs. Whatever happened to that? There should, of course, be photos of contemporary people. Make sure that the article is not dominated by the "History" section. We have History of Rajputs for that, alright? Give a tight summary of that here, but don't dwell on it. Give contemporary population statistics, folklore and customs etc. instead. Right now, the historical part is about 80% of the article. It should be 25% at most, summarizing. If nothing happens, I will radically export historical stuff to the history article. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Who are you and what are your credentials to make these claims? Statues and stamps are more valuable then living people. History section infact needs to be cleaned and expanded more.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 11:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)+

 * The main stay of the article is as Dab has stated. I actually had a friend look at it, in it's current form, he still cant understand what exactly a rajput is, lol! The photos provided by Dab should be imported back and although I cleared up some of the poor taste propoganda here, our RSS friends are back with other aliases again. 100 000 rain clouds or storms or something. This was going to happen given the bans. Can we see some enforcements on these extremists? --Raja 21:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you the Jarral contributor? You have put some crackpot assertions on Jarral that I deleted today.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 11:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * who am I? I am a rather experienced Wikipedian with some 25,000 edits and hundreds of articles under my belt. My advice was not confrontational or partisan, but matter of fact: This is the article about the Rajput people. Compare, if you like, Greeks or Armenians or Ethnic Germans or Pashtun. Note the Ethnic group template, note how there is a "history" section typically taking less than 50% of the article, along with sections like "culture", "institutions", "identity", etc.; especially when there is a specialized history article, what is the point of just duplicating information already there?

 * You proved quality and quantity are not related. In future develop a consensus on this page before you make your edits.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 06:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * and who may you be? someone's sockpuppet? we didn't go through this tedious rfar just to continue these childish games. Your article is at "Invasion", where it belongs. If you care about working on it, you are most welcome to. Contribute constructively. If you are not already banned, edit warring is the best way to become banned soon. dab (ᛏ) 09:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

sub-articles
this is crazy. if typhoon has his way, the Rajput article has more information about the invasions than the specialized Rajputs and Invasions of India. At least make plain what you propose. Why are you removing Category:Rajputs? Is the Rajput article unrelated to Rajputs? I see the following possibilities. Express your preference. dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Rajput, sub-articles History of Rajputs, Rajputs and Invasions of India
Summary style. The "Invasions" episodes are part of Rajput history, but since we have most information about them, they get to have their own historical sub-article.
 * dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Rajput, sub-article History of Rajputs
Rajputs and Invasions of India should be a redirect to History of Rajputs and the various invasions should be discussed in detail there.

Rajput, no sub-articles
There is not enough material to branch off specialized articles. Rajput should be the only article on Wikipedia discussing Rajput history and the invasions stuff in particular. Make both History of Rajputs and Rajputs and Invasions of India into redirects to Rajput.

Banned
Gurkhaboy got banned? He is a Western University educated scholar on the Rajputs. People like Dr. King, Dr. McCleod, Dr. Malvika Kasturi and Dr. J. T. O'Connell know him or of him. I think this article is gonna take a really bad turn. Daniel Ponzi
 * it couldn't be getting much worse, could it? These people didn't get banned for being clueless, but for misbehaving. dab (ᛏ) 09:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, you know fully well I didn't misbehave, nor was I insulting, so get off your high horse. I could have brought a lot to this article but I left when I saw Shivraj and you guys just go at it. But when I saw the Pakistani side not cite even one reference and your comments about Hindus, thats when I got involved. Go through your arguements and I rarely come up, never used a sockpuppet, didi,'t say that its "Hindus only", nor did I revert the article like others did. How old are you anyways? What do you mean by "These people"? Just because you were made an admin doesn't mean you should demean others. You just got away with misbehaving with your comments and being partial. An admin has to be held to a higher standard, something that you lack through your comments. And instead of being gracious about the matter you can't refrain but give snooty remarks. Are you just an angry person? You could have made this article amazing, but because of your disgust for Shivraj you began blindly acting into the hands of one side which does not have an legitimate arguement, thus you compromise your judgement and the integrity of the article. You should learn to keep yourself cool even if the likes of Shivraj.Gorkhali 11:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * wait a minute - I apologize, I didn't mean you. I never even listed you as part and parcel of the "Hindu trolls". You appear on the "good faith Hindu side" in my book. I did not realize before now that you were banned, I mean I saw your name on the remedy, but I didn't check back with the evidence. So I apologize for my statement above as not referring to you. I am unsure why you were banned, in fact I would be prepared to ask for clarification, especially concerning ban expiration. As it is, I certainly welcome you to continue constructively contributing via the talkpage. dab (ᛏ) 12:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab I would love to work with you, but I am banned and that makes me fear this article being highjacked again by sock puppets and Pakistanis. You understand my concern.Gorkhali 12:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Images for future use
__________________________________________________________________________________________

A suggestion
Perhaps we could also provide a picture of Maharaja Ganga Singh of Bikaner during his appointment to the British War Cabinet WW1 and as he is presented in the famous painting by Sir James Guthrie "The great statesmen of the war", also we could place a pic of Maharaja Raghubir Singh of Kotah Bundi and also Maharaja Dhiraj Gyanendra Bir Bikram Shahdev of Nepal as well as HRH Sri teen Maharaja Jung Bahadur of Nepal (my great great grandfather). Gorkhali 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

 * A separate page on HH Ganga Singh is certainly appropriate, and if you provide an image without copyright issues, we could use it there -- in this connection, GS's grandson, HH Karni Singh, wrote a scholarly dissertation entitled "The Relations of the House of Bikaner with the Central Powers, 1465-1949", for which he received a PhD. This can serve as an unimpeachable source for crafting a section on mughal-rajput relations. I know that a copy is available at the Seshadri Iyer memorial library in Bangalore, and I am trying to get hold of a copy through the library network where I live. If trolls are kept at bay, it is not impossible to write a sensible piece here and also create many other useful articles. This whole era of Indian history cries out for attention. ImpuMozhi 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I personally own a lot of these potraits of Maharajas, my personal collection, so no copyright issues involved, however I am waiting to have the ban lifted so that I may contribute to the article. Gorkhali 22:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Category:Rajputs
I was asked to seek for consensus. See above. No-one bothered to express their opinion. Understandably, since the case is really straightforward, it is not a matter of a controversial position, but a simple matter dividing material into an accessible series of articles. As long as no-one proposes a viable alternative, I take it as self-evident that here just as everywhere else on Wikipedia, sub-articles contain detailed information and are summarized on main articles. I can only imagine typhoon's revert-warring is some sort of sulking since I can see no rhyme or reason whatsoever. I am not even taking any position towards the factuality of the material. Stop it, or propose a coherent scheme of how you see the arrangement of related articles. dab (ᛏ) 13:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Your persistent deletions are not cool. Rajput history and character should be the main emphasis of this page. May I ask you again what stake do you have in this page and what prompts you to make massive edits?
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 08:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)+

 * Rajput history is big subject and deserves its own article or sets of articles. Someone using this encyclopedia to find out about Rajputs wants to know who they are, where they live, how many there are ... right now. Then perhaps the reader might explore the history. Insisting that Rajput should ONLY be history smacks of a coverup -- like a homeless man displaying a picture of the haveli (mansion) he owned fifty years ago and insisted he is defined by his haveli and not by his current homeless, impoverished state. If you're not ashamed of the current state of Rajputs, then allow that to be the focus of the main article and let the other material be sorted out into history articles. Zora 08:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Holy cow, so much hatred for rajputs that you are brandishing them "ashamed of ......". You better watch out what you say.  You also seem clueless about the present state of rajputs in India: with two prime ministers, more then a dozen chief ministers, bunch of industrialists and so on.  But all of them put together pale in comparison to a single Maharana Pratap or Prithviraj.   So I repeat please contribute constructively and not in a crackpot manner.  It will lead to more bickering.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 12:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)+

 * I am not "deleting" anything. The link to History of Rajputs is plain as day. Not a single shred of information was lost. You are really not getting this, are you? Take a step back, assume good faith, and have a look around the editing process on Wikipedia. Especially Categories. What do you say to that, Rajputs are so cool and important, they do not just get a single article, they get a whole series, and their own category. dab (ᛏ) 09:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * You are deleting whole bunch of stuff which is central theme of this article. Discuss here and come to consensus with all editors and stop revert warring.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 12:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * I am not. Just your continued assertion doesn't make it so. I've asked you about four times now to present your ideas of how these articles should be organized. Until you present them here in a proper manner, you will just be rolled back. dab (ᛏ) 08:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I have told you a bunch of times that character and history of rajputs should be the central theme of this page. Rolling back is not constructive and is a waste of time.  It is better to arrive at a consensus here with all editors.  Realize, rolling back is as easy for the "other side".
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 11:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * so your vote is for merging History of Rajputs back here? Why don't you just say so? Is the character of Rajputs best defined from the 12th to 17th century, or do they have any character at all today? dab (ᛏ) 12:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * A man's character comes out either when he has lot of power or he is under extreme stress. Last few hundred years have not been that stressful for majority of rajputs.  Average rajput tilled his land, paid his taxes and no one bothered him. British did a fine job in maintaining law and order and rajputs remember them for this.  With Muslims it was completely different.  Read how Colonel James Tod describes the character of rajput towards the end of rajput page last saved by myself.
 * Your tenor is a little weird to ask if they have any character today.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 07:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * great, so I suggest you head over to History of Rajputs and write a great article about their past heroism. We'll be sure to have a fair summary in the "History" section here. dab (ᛏ) 08:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I suggest you create a page on modern rajputs and say what you have to say there and we will be sure to link it from tis page.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 08:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)+

Who should deside origins of Maratha
While reading history of MY Maratha caste i have became sure that more care is taken while desiding the origin of western dog breeds like Germen Shepard, Dobermen etc. Today in this present world we Maratha's seem to be less than a dog breed in the world dominated by western civilisiation. This American, British civilisations give importance to our Maratha's less than their dogs. Desiding Maratha history, origin is child's play.As we all know that some outcaste social classes of every society of any nation such as Begger ,Criminal , murderer , sluts ,pimps etc have no digniety or value in any society. We all enjoy sick kind of enjoyment in passing comments on them.All western civilisations are enjoying such low rank enjoyment on history of Maratha caste.I want to make aware all the world off all this activities.Now very important question is that all those pepoles who make comments on Maratha history and origin, carries what kind of values , ideology, mentality,gens , .Are they worthy to deside others origin and write history of Maratha caste.What is the history and origin of ther own caste , nation ?? Do they belong to respectable families. Is their mind, soul pure and not full of dirty politics.??? hOW MUCH PURE BREAD ARE THEY ALL COMMENTRETORS Why don't we belive on the history told by Maratha's themselves??? Because western civilisations have gotta all the money, power ,resourcess , army with them.

By Vishal p Dudhane
 * do you have a suggestion related to this article? Otherwise per "WP:NOT a soapbox" I think this comment does not belong here. We want to avoid the sort of stream-of-consciousness rants that fill archives 1-16 already. dab (ᛏ) 10:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Vishal D.
 * I support you 100%. Non-marathas, non-rajputs will not define the origins of marathas or rajputs.  Is something bothering you on the maratha page?
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 11:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * Exactly the attitude that got people banned. dab (ᛏ) 12:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Please remove Rajput samaj link
Dab, please remove the Rajput samaj link, they have a lot of mistakes and especially their article about my cousins the Phulkian royal family (ie Patiala, Nabha etc), the origins are completely wrong and you can cross reference this with Christopher Buyers of the Royal Ark (he keeps track of descendants of Royal families). Rajput Samaj is very bad and inaccurate, even the Pakistani side had a laugh during the early parts of the debate on this article. Gorkhali 02:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * hm, would you be content to have the link labelled "Pakistan centered account" or something? Is it Pakistan centered? dab (ᛏ) 09:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * ah, no, it is a website by one individual, Chhatrapal Singh Shekhawat of Rajasthan. Unfortunately, it is not very strong on sources either. I cannot judge its accuracy, but I am ready to believe you it is inaccurate, or at best the opinion of an individual. So if nobody objects I will remove the link. dab (ᛏ) 09:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Dab. You see the reason why I say his site is inaccurate is because he has no valid sources on the families he talks about. One of them being the Nabha Royal fmaily, my immediate 1st cousins. He had an article about the origins of the family which was completely inaccurate, myself knowing because its my family. This site doesn't have a good reputation in terms of academia. He shoudl have cross referenced with Christopher Buyers at least. Thank you for removing it.Gorkhali 16:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice article, but too long
Tha article has a lot of valuable information and has nice illustrations. However it is too long, and has too many details. I am afraid most potential readers do not read the article. It should be remembered that most readers are not experts but people with little or no knowledge of the subject.

I would suggest dividing the article into 2-3 articles, and using smaller and well-separated paragraphs.--Malaiya 00:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It is a work-in-progress and also somewhat contentious. It will be done in due course; I have already moved large swathes of text to other pages -- we should let some of the old text and references remain until they are replaced by the new. ImpuMozhi 01:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Impumozzhi
is a liar and has been exposed at Talk:Rathore. What will it take to make him stop lying? =Bhannu 14:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

... and Bachmann's truth
I wish my compatriots would stop giving this daily proof of the truth of poor Bachmann's much-criticised comment. ImpuMozhi 15:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

1911
for reference, Rajput/1911, can be worked into the article (public domain). The Britannica is hardly npov (neither "fine and brave" nor "lazy and indifferent" will do in Wikipedia's voice), but we can refer the reader to Britannia's 1911 opinion, and the census data might be handy. dab (ᛏ) 13:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * 1901 census data:
 * 9,712,156 Rajputs in all [British] India (viz., including Pakistan)
 * 1,875,387 of them Muslim ("the great majority", presumably 7.9 million, Hindu)
 * 620,229 in Rajputana
 * 122,160 Rahtor (largest clan)
 * 100,186 Kachwaha
 * 86,460 Chauhan
 * 74,666 Jadu
 * 51,366 Sisodhyias
 * 43,435 Ponwar
 * 18,949 Solanki
 * 9,448 Parihar

do we have more up-to-date demographic data? These are just the official figures of course, not the "truth", but I'm afraid we won't be able to do better than offer the official figures with suitable caveats. dab (ᛏ) 13:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

article length
the article weighs 44k at present. This is rather too long. For this reason alone, I advise against the merger with History of Rajputs. If you do want to merge them, do a poll, if there is a majority in favour of the merge, I will not object. As it is, the article should be shortened slightly, and made more coherent. I admit that the emphasis will still be on historical events, since the Rajputs have had no official status since 1931, and there is no reliable census data even before that, so that it is questionable how far they are well defined as a group at all. Before 1600 or so I have no doubt the concept was perfectly well defined, and this article has the difficult task to connect the historical caste with ideas of "Rajputness" very obviously still alive today. The "History" article is free to ignore the current complications and concentrate on the glorious past. dab (ᛏ) 09:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Are you and this fellow zora operating with some religio political agenda? BTW what is your character?
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 12:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * no, we have an encyclopedic agenda. See WP:ENC. Writing about my character would violate WP:NOR. You should do constructive work here, such as working on the History article. As it is, you are obstructing Wikipedia. This may get you blocked from editing. dab (ᛏ) 12:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * All I have seen you do so far is take out hindi from the page, cut and paste from EB, take out most relevant photographs, allow lies to be pushed on the page, threaten me about some banned user, delete large texts without discussion.  I repeat please discuss large edits to the page here.  Arrive at a conclusion that all editors agree with.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 09:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * Why do you want to duplicate History of Rajputs here? Do you propose a merge? Just answer the question. It is not "deletion" to remove material copied verbatim from another article. It is pointless to host the same text several times over. It is even harmful, by constituting a fork. dab (ᛏ) 15:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

sprotection
we didn't plod through arbitration to continue playing hide and seeks with people's socks. If you want to merge History of Rajputs here, make a clean proposal. I will not object to such a merger in principle, just do it properly and without all the socks and the edit warring. dab (ᛏ) 09:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * My reason for being so lukewarm to this (very logical) proposal to create a summary here and move text to the "history" page is that I am sure the warring will only extend to that page, and there will be less mutual support there; and even in that case, this main page will not know peace, because even bland and uncontroversial additions to it are not acceptable, apparently. Somebody combines 2-penny scholarship and laughable composition skills with unmerited vanity and that accounts for this continued sockpuppetry. He does not realize that creating endless sockpuppets gives other people the wrong impression that all rajputs are like this -- stupid, vain, obdurate. ImpuMozhi 10:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

You and your fellow mates Zora/Latinus contributing to edit warring as much as the other side. Can you calm yourself and your mates down? Please discuss and arrive on a consensus that makes everyone happy. No point in bickering.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 09:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * We don't know what makes you happy because all you ever do is summary reversion. We don't have to guess what you want. Make it plain or begone. Did you even make an attempt at explaining what you want remotely comparable to the list of options at ? Pick one of the options there, or make a suggestion in your own words. Until you do that, you are just a nuisance, not a contributor. dab (ᛏ) 10:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * What makes me happy is you and your team not deleting whole bunch of text without discussing and convincing editors on this talk page. Ask your team to stop revert warring. Then we can develop ideas in peace.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 08:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * You show no sign of listening or collaborating. Do a strawpoll on whatever it is you propose (like I did above, except that nobody participated). dab (ᛏ) 09:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

stay on topic
Impumozhi and his knowledge (or lack of) about rajputs by Bhannu 10:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * stay on topic. discuss the present article and how to proceed with it. There is no room for anyting else on this page. If you want to talk to Impumozhi, do it on his talkpage. If you want to invite opinions on another user, do a proper rfc. We have to keep this page from descending into a mudslinging discussion board again.

Article reference
The page looks a lot better than it's previous version, hats off to the writer. I make it clear that I do respect this page being a primarily Hindu caste page, but only argued that the language be encyclopedic (i.e not POV with anti Islamic slurs) and a mild reference that there are Rajputs of other faiths. I dont want arguments but I would like to assure Ghorkali both me and Khurram are far from 'Pakistani Teenagers' and such name calling doesn't win him more respect from us either. But, either way, things have no doubt improved, lets keep up this trend.

A reference I have a problem with is on the 'Invasions' section;

"Within a hundred years after his (Muhammad's) death, his followers had invaded the countries of Asia as far as the Hindu Kush... almost from (the) first, the Arabs had fixed eager eyes upon (India). Fifteen years after the death of prophet, Usman sent a sea expedition to Thana and Broach on the Bombay coast (c.647 AD?). Other raids towards Sindh took place in 662 and 664 with no results.

a) This is unencyclopedic language i.e. I question the writers neutrality completely

b) The 4th Caliph Ali took over from Caliph Usman (after his death) approx within 6 years of Muhammed's (pbuh) death. How in God's name could the same Usman now be a Caliph fifteen years after his death? This reference is therefore more agenda and factually incorrect.

Can this therefore either be replaced or removed? Serious ideas please. --Raja 18:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The entire extract from the Walker as also the extract from James Tod is horrendously biased. It should be knocked off entirely. I am retaining it for the moment only to see if any info can be used elsewhere in the article. Whatever I have deleted was utterly useless; not only POV but also nothing to do with rajputs. South India, Marathas, Sikhs, etc. Thank you for the kind words Raja. ImpuMozhi 18:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Um, Muhammad died in 632 CE. Uthman was caliph from 644 to 656. He was succeeded by Ali (caliph 656-661) and then Muawiya (661-680). So the quote was right in saying that an expedition in 647 would have been on Uthman's watch. However, I agree that the wording is dreadfully POV. Zora 18:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * yes, extract the factual info and replace the quotes with Wikipedia's voice. Nice work on the ToC reorganisation. But do we need separate "Islamic invasions" and "Rajputs and Invasions" section? They appear to cover the same period and could be merged. But we should make mention of how impressed Tod and other Brits were with the Rajputs, preferably in the "Character" section. Even the 1911 Britannica has "fine brave men", although "lazy and indifferent" as farmers. dab (ᛏ) 18:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The 1911 thing is written in the grand old imperial style -- I don't know. Also, the demographica of 1911 is not altogether relevant, except in affirming that the British census recognized muslim-rajputs, apart from every other divisive caste-identity grouping. I think these sections need much copy-editing, and the demographics may disappear into another section, is that all right? Also Raja, you will see in the section of on "origins" that there is mention of maratha and Jat claims to Rajput-hood. I am planning to word the Muslim-rajput thing in terms of "similarly, converts are loath to disassociate themselves from the identity and image of the parent community ". What do you think of that? ImpuMozhi 18:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * well, if we had the 1931 census data it would be more relevant. The 1911 demographic data is still of historic interest, especially since "Rajput" is not an officially recognized group or ethnicity today. Much like in my own country where there is no official nobility and I can call myself "Lord", "Duke" or "Count" or whatever without breaking any law. Even before 1931, "Rajput" seems to have become an "embattled identity" with conflicting claims. In prosaic reality, the census guy walked up to your door in 1868, and you were free to tell him that you were or were not a Rajput, so we can pretty much forget about a headcount that is both official and realistic. The admiration of the British for the soldierly qualities of the Rajputs would seem to belong in the "British Raj" section. dab (ᛏ) 19:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Other articles and work
I would like views on - This page needs a great deal more work -- (patronage of) literature, art, architecture etc etc but at present I will concentrate on getting what is already available into acceptable, readable form. Regards, ImpuMozhi 18:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Deletion of the separate "Invasions" page altogether
 * Replacement of the bulk of the "History" page with the "Political History" section here. I know that this is basically a summary, and the history page can have much more detail, but nothing further is possible in the circumstances
 * Deletion of the "Further reading" section -- not many pages have such a section.
 * let's not rush it. The literature section can hang around, maybe useful quotes are forthcoming. Also review the "comments", some of them may be used in the article. After that, there can be a "further reading" section with books about the Rajputs in general. Individual biographies should be moved to the article of the biographee rather than just deleted. The Hindi books should either be used for a specific quotation or removed, it does not do to have a Hindi "further reading" section on English Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 19:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

definition
hello everyone.i want to know if dr sumer chauhan can call himself rajput.on his gorkhali page he has claimed that maharaja of patiala is his maternal uncle.he has also claimed that the royal family of patiala is sikh jat.does this not make him a sikh jat rather than a rajput. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk • contribs)

origins of rajputs. brahmins are descended from brahm rishis(priest prophets).all in all their are seven brahm rishis(priest prophets). rajputs are descended from raj rishis(king prophets).in the bhagvad gita, fourth discourse,shri krishan ji maharaj says to arjuna ji about jnana yoga "in the beginning i taught this imperishable yoga to vivashvant,vivashvant taught it to manu,manu taught it to ikshvaku.this yoga having thus passed in succession,the king sages (raj rishis)learnt.suraj vanshi rajputs are descended from vivashvantji,manuji and ikshvakuji(rajrishis).vivashvantji,s title is surya or suraj(sun).chandervanshi rajputs are descended from somaji.somaji,s title is chander(moon).vivashvantji and somaji were second cousins. both brahmins and rajputs are of divine lineage.that is why they feel so proud of themselves.                                               hawkraj.
 * "the moon told us to keep vandalizing Wikipedia" -- suddenly it all makes so much sense. not. dab (ᛏ) 09:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

To User:10 000 thundering typhoons
What are you trying to do? You are copying large chunks of text from History of Rajputs. If merging both articles is what you're after, fine, but do take into consideration that this article is over 46 KB long, well over the recommended article length. So far you have not indicated what you want; all you have been doing is revert warring on the article and this talk page! Can't you understand that your views, whatever they may be, are clearly in the minority and until you provide your rationale for them, you will simply be trolling the article. What do you want? --Latinus 12:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

 * it's just the same game of socks all over again. Shall we block the sock warriors from now on? Some people are trying to write an encyclopedia here. dab (ᛏ) 06:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

i have been going through the archives for the past three weeks.i don,t like what i see.both hindu rajputs and muslim rajputs have made false claims due to ignorance and lack of knowledge.islam was spread with the sword,blackmails,kidnappings and terror.muslim rajputs are excepted as rajputs by majority of hindus.raja jaipal was converted by mahmood ghaznavi by force.raja jaipal reconverted to hinduism again and died as a hindu.in 1922 100,000 malkana muslim rajputs in agra region converted back to hinduism and were excepted as rajputs.in the 90,s 40,000 chauhan muslim rajputs in rajastan converted back to hinduism and were excepted as rajputs.thousands converted in jammu kashmir region.there are only a handful young hindu rajputs on the internet who are carrying on with anti-muslim rajput rhetoric.and their leader is dr.sumer chauhan.i think his mother is a sick jat and that is where he is getting his anti muslim rajput hatred from because sikhs hate muslims and jats hate rajputs. hawkraj.

 * I never said there were no such thing as Muslims who are descended from Rajput families. Nor do I have anything to do with the sock puppets. Dab and others know I am quite sincere and I have thus not interfered with this article any longer, I simply come and look at its progression and how Impumozhi has done quite a bit of good work to the article. As for Hawkraj commenting on my mother, that is so inappropriate. However in case you were wondering, my mother is not a Sikh Jat, look at my profile, she is the grandaughter of HRH Prince Dhwaj Narsingh Rana of Kaski Lambjung Nepal, which can be confirmed by Christopher Buyers and Dr. Joseph T. O'Connell at the university of Toronto. This is the same family as Rajmata Scindia, Rana of Udaipur, Ranas of Nepal. Dab Don't you think that such personal attacks are inappropriate?Gorkhali 19:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that commenting on editor's mothers and random allegations is going too far. We have a few Hindu kids who make a point of disrupting this article. This is a problem, but nothing out of the ordinary. Wikipedia can deal with it. Gorkhali is not one of these kids, but a well-behaved editor with a pov. This article needs admin attention. The kids indulging in unproductive reverts should be blocked and offtopic trash posted to the talkpage should be reverted. Zora, if you're reading this, or any other admin, please get involved. dab (ᛏ) 19:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The comments about Mr.Chauhan (User:Gorkhali) are so tasteless as to be beneath comment. I urge him to follow the dictum "never explain never complain" when faced with these third-rate types -- do not dignify trolls by bandying words with them. In the light of the public image of rajputs, one may wonder whether these guys are real rajputs. Do rajputs hide behind sock-puppets, play with the truth, use foul language and behave so cheaply? Speaking at their level, as far as I am able to, let me say that these people give rajputs a bad name, and make Indians feel ashamed in front of urbane Pakistanis, who seem to be so much more cultured. ImpuMozhi 22:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Trollish behavior
Both these user-accounts (and now Chudasama) have the same aim, but Stephanian account is clearly intended to be recognized as a troll and banned, while the 1000 tycoons account tries to build up a non-troll image by making pious calls for consensus (and also by copy-pasting matter in toto from websites). Why not follow the script thus charted out for us? What more is needed before Stephanian is recognized as a troll and banned? Apart from personal abuse, he is also blanking out important sections of the talk-page and now, he is emptying out Category:Rajputs and Category:Rajput clans with senseless vengeance. Why exactly is he still being tolerated? Is it because the blocking of this account will have absolutely no effect on affairs here? ImpuMozhi 12:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree - this has been going on for ages. Not considering the obvious sockpuppets involved, the revert warring on the article and talk page is unique. While I have absolutely no problem in reverting and reverting again and again ad nauseam, I don't think revert warring of this scale is allowed (if it is, it shouldn't be). 10 000 typhoons's approach appears to contradict itself: in effect he's saying "do as I say [not revert war and discuss on the talk page], not as I do [revert war and never discuss on the talk page]". The tactics are well known and are outlined in detail at WP:TROLL. Stephanian's approach is blatantly rude and if he doesn't stop, I advise you to take it to WP:PAIN. As for removing the categories - I'd use the rollback script to reverse it, but I'm not sure if it's allowed. The IP check was "inconclusive", but I have a feeling that this is going to reach the extent where they are banned in their own right and their socks are blockable on sight. I requested an IP check for RendezvousSingh a few days ago and there was no response. I'm certain that the same thing would happen if one were requested for Chudasama. --Latinus 13:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * "banned in their own right and their socks are blockable on sight" is exactly what is needed -- we already have an Arbcom ruling against User:Shivraj Singh, which has availed us nothing; neither Dab nor Zora nor I have any doubt about where the font of this trolling lies. WP:PAIN can hardly be more potent than Arbcom, and anyway it is at best a personal reprieve and will not help the articles. I think anything less than the hammer will be effort gone waste. We need all the help we can get, Latinus, and I am very glad to have you here. Regards, ImpuMozhi 13:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * imho, the arbcom was doing a sloppy job, they recognized the trolls and summarily banned them (including, without stating their reason, Gorkhali, likely just because they were confused by the numerous sock accounts), but they didn't give us tools to cope with the situation. Now I wouldn't say the situaton hasn't improved. Look at the archives if you want to be remembered of the madness reigning here before the rfar. Now we have a slow revert-war, and all editors participating in constructive debate and editing seem to agree on the "troll" status on the revert crew, be they socks or meatpuppets. We just need to avoid letting this talkpage slip into another swamp of abuse, and stay on topic working on the article. The reverting doesn't prevent us from this, and if the trolls continue, I am confident an admin will step in sooner or later. dab (ᛏ) 14:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

i apologise.i am sorry.in my ear;ier post i deliberately avoided mentioning other members of his family and only mentioned about his maternal uncle.maternal uncle means mother,s brother.if his maternal uncle is sikh jat then he is also partly sikh jat.hawkraj. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk • contribs)
 * it's ok - discussion of possible definitions of "Rahjput" is on topic, there is just no need to discuss a Wikipedia editor's family to illustrate the case. dab (ᛏ) 14:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Dab, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, Maharaj Patiala is referred to as my maternal uncle because he is my mother's couisn through marriage, not blood. So much for your accussation. If you do not know anything about how the princely families of India are inter-related then you should refrain from passing judgement over me. Before passing judgement on who is who and who is what, you should clarify it first, or at least take up a course in South Asian Studies. My blood relatives are the Ranas of Nepal and Udaipur, my relatives through marriages of cousins, uncles and aunts is the Patiala and Nabha family. And why are you after me? This a talk page about Rajput, not about my life.Gorkhali 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * exactly (meaning your last statement). If we can abstract something relevant to this article from the case study of your family, that's fine; otherwise, if you object to having your family discussed here, I suggest you remove this part of the discussion from the page as offtopic and ad hominem (compare WP:RPA). Incidentially, since the typhoon troll seems to hold you in some esteem, Gorkhali, you may want to attempt getting him to listen to sense on his talkpage. dab (ᛏ) 17:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, there isn't a Rajput alive or University Professor in South Asian Studies who doesn't know my family or of my family (meaning the enitre group of extended cousins, its a huge family), enough books have been written. I agree with you that here is not the place to discuss my fmaily, and their are enough articles about my fmaily on Wiki already (some of which have been done by Impumozhi, I was very touched by what he has written). I believe 10,000 typhoon must be a Rajput since he showed me respect. I will try and reason with him and hopefully everyone can work together. However, I will be really active in two weeks. I think a lot of misunderstandings have given way to a huge edit war which has tired out most people. I suggest that if everyone is in agreement, after my hectic schedule for two weeks, I could sit down and see the two versions, from your side and Impumozhi and 10,000 typhoons side and try to combine the two. Whatever is not appropriate we could perhaps place in subarticles and link it to the main article, thus perhaps all groups will be happy and we can maitian an academic article. "Rajputs" is a huge topic but I understand that being an encyclopedia, we need to maintian a certain length. Let me know what you think. Cheers Gorkhali 02:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Full protection
In light of the edit/revert war, I've installed full protection to the article. Please get consensus one a single version, or bring it to WP:RFC, and stop edit warring - it's not conducive to Wikipedia. NSL E (T+C) at 06:25 UTC (2006-03-16)

that is much better.calling a non-rajput your mama(maternal uncle)is very serious matter.if someone,s mother is chauhan,rathore or sisodia they can principaly call every chauhan,rathore or sisodia their mamaji.next time be specific and give clarifications.this is a public platform.people could get wrong ideas.hawkraj.

khurram,raja,wisesabre pay attention.in archive 17 suryabandhu sahib has quoted a passage from maulana maududi,s book"the fundamentals of islam".you muslim rajputs have claimed that there is no compulsion in islam.but maulana maududi is threatening muslim rajputs,muslim jats,muslim gujjars etc. that if they do not practice inter caste marriages maulana maududi will cut you to peices,disgrace you and humiliate you and dishonour you.if this is not compulsion then what is compulsion.maulana maududi is a sayyid himself.sayyid caste is highest caste in islam.sayyids do not give their daughters to non-sayyids.they say that they are superior than non-sayyids.rajputs and brahmins in hinduism are equivalent to sayyids in islam.rajputs and brahmins are descended from rishis and avtars (prophets and messengers or nabis and rasools)and sayyids are descended from prophet mohammad (nabi and rasool).sayyids do preach equality but they do not practice it.don,t you think this is contradiction?.i bet you people don,t have the guts to marry a sayyid woman.in the koran in surat zakhraf,verse 32 it says that "to some people we have given honour over others and they serve them".rich people all over the world have honour over poor people.in hinduism superiority and honour is based on caste.therefore caste is ordained by god almighty. hindu rajputs pay attention.this passage that suryabandhu sahib has quoted proves that muslim rajputs,muslims jats and muslim gujjars have maintained their purity of blood and they refuse to practice inter-caste marriages and that is why maulana maududi is threatening to cut them to peices,disgrace them and dishonour them.maulana maududi has ulterior motives.by making desi muslims lose their caste identities muslims of arab,iranian and central asian origins want to steal their ruling and warrior caste status and become rulers and warriors themselves.with rajputs,jats and gujjars around muslims of foreign origin cannot claim to be legitimate rulers of society.muslim rajputs don,t need to feel guilty for feeling proud of their rajput lineage.if god has given you honour and made you superior then be proud of it.

Seek consensus?
As I expected, Stephanian, typhoons, RendezvousSingh et al, don't initiate a debate and completely ignore the attempts to start one above. Yes, the article has been protected and in normal edit wars, it is the right thing to do, but this is not a normal edit war. Typhoons specifically, calls for consensus, but he does not co-operate in reaching one. Protection is ideal when there are two or more bone fide factions who do want to co-operate and reach consensus. That is not the case here. While it may stop the edit war, it doesn't keep rants off the talk page and is only temporary. Once it is unprotected, I'm sure, they will continue and typhoons will continue inviting us to seek consensus totally oblivious to the fact that that is what we have been trying to do all this time! I have a feeling that the standard of proof for sockpuppets should be lowered to the balance of probabilities and once that standard is met, they should immediately be reverted and blocked. I have a feeling that measures such as those on force over at Bogdanov affair would be a great asset here. --Latinus 14:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * they are not getting it, no question. see User_talk:NSLE. Whatever you do, don't reply to their dreamy rants, we must stay on topic. This is Wikipedia and not a general discussion board. It has been obvious for months that these people are not here to write an encyclopedia (hell, they wouldn't recognize one), I simply don't see why we should play their game, protecting and unprotecting, just ban their socks. dab (ᛏ) 14:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

 * As you wish, switched to sprotection. NSL E (T+C) at 01:03 UTC (2006-03-17)

Classic trolls
People who revert only and never contribute matter to a page.

Latinus please tell me have you or Zora added a single line to rajput page other then revert it?

Dab has cut and pasted matter from EB.

Mozhi seems to be lying. Can you ask him to give a rebuttal to stephanian's assertions?

+10 000 thundering typhoons 07:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)+

 * LOL, what have you contributed?? Zilch, except revert-warring. Same goes for Stephanian, Rendezvous, Chudasama....ImpuMozhi 17:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Here are my contribs so far: ,,, and so on. I will admit my knowledge on rajputs is not that extensive, but it is more then all four of you put together.  We are trying to figure out who is a bonafide editor and who is a troll.  Two of you have not added a single word or useful information to the rajput page.  One of you is a liar and unless he/she explains there position on why they lied they cannot be considered serious editors. Last one, Dab, is a cut and paste expert.
 * A good conversation is only possible with people who are reasonable and konwledgable on a topic. I am afraid none of you posess any knowledge on rajputs.  So your contribution can be helpful in page organization and not content. With that in mind discuss further.
 * Lastly it is almost a sacrilege for a rajput to use someone else'e clan name as there own. Chudasama is a surname of rajputs from Gujarat. I am not a chudasama.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 18:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)+
 * ...which are just a bunch of colourful socks, of course, of a user who did "contribute" (to the sad excuse for a 'debate' now in the archives), only they won't admit to it because they would then admit they are really banned by the arbcom :) dab (ᛏ) 17:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * *sigh*, typhoons (Shivraj Singh), what changes do you want to make? Is this information really too sensitive to disclose? As I told you before, if you continue revert warring without stating your rationale you will be trolling the article. That's what you have been doing so far, so I think you accusing me of trolling is a bit rich on your part. --Latinus 18:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * BTW we should have a special section on this talk page to store all the rants, because they keep piling up. --Latinus 18:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

re-conversions.dab or zora,could you please go on google search and type in "qalander-article".this article is about reconversions that started in the late 19th century and have continued to this day.some hindus had lost their caste by going overseas and when they came back to india they had to go through a purification ceremony in order to be re-instated to their former caste status.this led to the re-conversions of some muslims of hindu origin and then ultimately to the mass conversions of muslim rajputs,muslim jats and muslim gujjars etc.see if it is relevant to paste here.there is another article on google search called "a forgotten hero named jassa".it is on chowk website.it is about a neo-muslim rajput who fought a geurilla war for 40 years against foreign muslim invaders against the dehli dynasty that was appointed by tamerlane in the 14th century.this article also gives reasons for hindu conversions to islam.can you see if it is worth pasting it here.thank you.hawkraj.

 * Having read what you put up about Gorkhali, that is completely deplorable. To make that kind of derogatory remark about another with the comfort of a PC is in very poor taste and class (of human, let alone any 'caste'), so an apology was the least that he deserved here. Dab,, you and latinus are on the right tracks here, revert and edit warring and not much else is coming out here from these fanatics. Gorkhali believes that he can talk to typhoon to be more civil but when he's one of the first people to tell him not to be 'bullied' etc and go ahead on typhoons talk page, I dont think he knew what he was doin,lol. Either way, can the reference to Muslim Rajputs be returned in the initial intro (seeing as we know they were accepted in the last census early 1900's) and these sock puppets finally permanently banned for their incivil, intellectually retarded and fanatic behaviour? Im surprised half of them can even type....--Raja 18:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think Muslim Rajputs are really that much of a concern for the article now. They are clearly mentioned up front under "Demographics", as counted by the Brits back in 1901. But that's a hundred years ago, and nobody has been counting Rajputs for a 70 years now. The concept seems to have become a bit fuzzy since. We are still waiting for anyone to provide a sourced discussion of the controversy that seems to surround all this. I can only see there is controversy, but unfortunately the Rajput warriors (or 'worriers' as they style themselves in poetic ungrammaticality) plaguing this article are so unintellectual or uneloquent that we still don't know what it is supposed to be about. All we know is they are really proud and angry and manly and uncompromising, but that's about it. We cannot write "Today's Rajputs enjoy pestering people online" in the article, since that would be original research. Until somebody provides a clean paragraph on 20th century history and the current situation, this article is stuck with the medieval Muslim-invasion-cruft. As far as that goes, it looks quite fair now, and I think we can remove the cleanup tag. At least I think the current article manages to convey the rough outlines of what this is about to the novice reader. But it's still not great, of course. dab (ᛏ) 08:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

@Dab, "All we know is they are really proud and angry and manly and uncompromising, but that's about it. We cannot write "Today's Rajputs enjoy pestering people online" in the article, since that would be original research." LOL :) Gorkhali 01:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

(Final) New Beginning
In this soap opera of edit war that has been going on for months, there are no winners. No one has emerged as a beacon of wisdom or civility, and the ultimate loser has been Wikipedia. It would have been comical, had not the tragic outcome of this farcical drama been that a very important encyclopedic article lies in shambles for months now.

I have decided to take the matter in my own hands. I shall take the article in its present form as the baseline, and accept only those modifications which are acceptable to the majority. In the case of a dispute, I will conduct a simple poll and implement its results.

Calling each other troll or sockpuppet will not achieve anything. Wikipedia by design is open to all, so all sort of blocking and banning is basically non-enforceable. So let’s not waste time over name-calling. I expect more maturity from the editors going forward.

Cooperation from all concerned is welcome.

Medicine Man 04:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Wikipedia, Medicine Man, where did you hear about the project? Since the article is semi-protected right now, I suggest you work on uncontroversial topics first, until you get to know how things work. dab (ᛏ) 08:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And why should medicine man take your advice? Have you offered any thing to this page yet? MMan welcome to the rajput page.  We have a serious lack of quality editors who are knowledgable about rajputs. Please explain clearly on this talk page what exactly do you want to achieve.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 18:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)+

"I suggest you work on uncontroversial topics first, until you get to know how things work"

It is precisely this kind of condescending behavior that has made this article a circus. I believe an attitude correction is overdue for some of the editors.

Dear Mr. Bachmann, thanks for your suggestion. I believe that you must spend your energy in deciding what you should work on, rather than advising others what they should work on.

Two things I want going forward:-

(1) For every change any editor makes on the article page, He/she must provide a rationale for the change on the article talk page. Nothing rambling or tortuous, just a couple of sentences will suffice. if no justification for the change is forthcoming is next 24 hours, the modifications must be rolled back.

In the case a justification as been offered, other editors involved decide by straw poll if the changes should stay or go.

(2) All parties agree that all editors are equal, and nobody is more equal than others. If some editors wield admin powers to push their POV or carry on a vendetta, it is not a fair play. That’s just not cricket. So before we start involved parties must declare whether they want to be an editor, or an admin. They can't be both together.

Let’s go. It's time now.

Medicine Man 06:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Um, Medicine Man, are you affiliated in some way with User:Shivraj Singh or User:DPSingh? --Latinus 12:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * No Sir, I am not. Who are these gentlemen and what heinous crimes have they committed?

 * Medicine Man 19:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

dab sahib,if you go on the website called "operation world" on google search,there you will find figures for muslim rajputs,hindu rajputs,sikh rajputs and christian rajputs and all the rest of the castes in minute details.the figures are for the 21st century.hawkraj.

khuram sahib,i am not happy with the article on bhatti rajputs.it says bhatti is from the word bhatakana.bhatakana means going astray.this is complete nonsense and insulting.bhatti is probably short for bharatri or bhatarak.bhatarak means warrior or lord.i am not sure about bharatri.can you get hold of col.james tod,s annals and antiquities of rajasthan.history of the bhattis is in the second volume.there is a geneological table given beginning from our ancestor brahmaji to our ancestor shri krishan ji maharaj.can you copy the geneological table at the top and then write the history of the bhattis in chronological order.ignore col.tod sahib,s speculations about rajputs being descended from central asians.just follow and beleive the official version of rajput ancestry.people are just so jealous of rajputs that they cannot swallow the fact that rajputs have been wielding power since prehistoric times,for thousands of years.caste system was established by our ancestors so that their descendants(that is us rajputs) will keep wielding power,exercising power and enjoy power and have honour and glory for thousands of years to come.people like ms thapar,mr.jamanadas and mr.mukherji are not rajputs,so do not beleive what they say about origins of rajputs.they are just jealous of rajputs.beleive in the official version of rajput origins,that rajputs are descended from rajrishis chanderji,surajji and avatars ramchanderji and shri krishanji maharaj.jai shri krishna.hawkraj.

are janjuas rajputs?.in col.tod,s book,in the 2nd volume,in annals of jaisalmer,page no.1221 the very first word is janjua rajput.janjua rajputs have been mentioned in the annals of bhattis in the middle of 15th century.khokhars have been mentioned on page 1222.the origin of rajput tribal names in non-rajput castes is due to intermarriage between rajput men and non-rajput women.the origin of khokhars who claim arab origin is due to marriage between arab men and khokhar women.in nepal when hamal brahmins marry thakur women the offspring are called hamal thakuries.the origins of some other tribes who claim arab origin is also due to marriages between arab men and indian women.they are not rajputs,of course.there may be jat khokhars,gujjar khokhars,qureshi khokhars and some other khokhars,but their are also real rajput khokhars.khokhars are a branch of the rathores.all that you people have to do is read the annals of jaisalmer and you will find solutions to all your problems.hawkraj.

Error
You have an error in the Demographics: The successor-states of the British Raj have chosen not to record caste affiliation; present-day estimates are therefore necessarily inexact, and range in the vicinity of 40 million people claiming people claiming Rajput heritage.

This is a clear POV: Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi and dialects of these languages are the native languages of the Rajputs.

The languages are also incorrect since Hindi and Urdu were languages that developed much later (please consult a lingustic/socio-anthropologist or Indian languages expert). Native languages of the Rajputs can be anything from Sanskrit to Pali to Devnagri to Braj to Nepali (a Rajasthani dialect) etc etc, so I would suggest removing the line about languages since Rajputs can come from as far as Manipur. Be careful not to write down your assumptions but try to keep all claims that can be backed up by credible authentic sources. William Cutbush 05:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Another point you should be careful about is that in COgnate communities, your line states: "It is interesting to note that by their own definition, every mughal emperor beginning with Jehangir, the fourth of that numerous dynasty, were muslim-rajput. The great bulk of muslim-rajputs are found in Pakistan. Detailed information on the community is available at the Muslim Rajputs page. "

First of all, Jehangir's mother was Jodha-bai, the princess of Jaipur, she was a Rajput, but Jehangir's father was Akbar the Great, thus Jehangir is referred to as a Mughal Prince, not a Rajput, you're playing with the credibility of Wikipedia with such claims that only reflect a POV. Also the comment that the "Great bulk of Muslim Rajputs are found in Pakistan" is quite a claim considering that there are more Muslims in India than Pakistan. In Pakistan, Sindhis are not Rajputs, Baluchis are not Rajputs and Pathans are not Rajputs, neither are the Kashmiri Muslims. The Baluchis and Pathans are great warrior people in their own right but are not the focus of this article. This leaves us with the Punjabis of Pakistan where you have some Rajputs, Khatris (a business community subcaste of the Punjab), other groups but the vast majority of Punjabis are Jats. We seriously need to consult some demographics now. I will try to go to the Pakistani consulate tomorrow or in the coming week and consult them on some facts. For now I will continue to read your "interesting" article. So far have taken a look at:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html http://www.infopak.gov.pk/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan

And nothing turned up about Pakistan's Rajput population, there is however mention of Pathans, Baluchis and everyone else.

Another point that could be placed here is that according to the official website for the Pakistani Government: http://www.infopak.gov.pk/public/govt/information_desk_index.htm You can go to the link: http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/main.html then click on "Pakistan Rarely Part of India".

It seems that the Pakistani government wants nothing to do with anything Hindu or Indian. Be careful of pushing POVs and allowing personal opinions get in the way of writing a proper article.

I'm gonna take a look at some other Pakistani related material. Perhaps something will show up that is valid.

William Cutbush 06:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Points
Hi, it is delightful to have some constructive criticism on this talk-page. Regarding the points raised: I hope this addresses your points. Please do provide further constructive criticism on this page, if possible. Regards, ImpuMozhi 08:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have fixed the typo (double wording)
 * I have removed the "bulk of muslim-rajputs are Pakistani" sentence as a measure of abundant caution
 * Regarding languages: My understanding of the term "native language of the rajputs" is that the said language/s is/are the mother-tongues of that community. This is the language they speak at home. The references to Sanskrit, Pali, etc are surely misplaced? Also, Devanagari is a script, and Braj-bhasha is a dialect of Hindi. Nepali is an independent language.
 * As may be ascertained from the 17 archived talk-pages, the partisans of the muslim-rajput identity base their claim on part-descent from some Hindu-rajput convert to Islam. The idea is that if one of a thousand known ancestors was a rajput, the person is entitled to self-describe as being "muslim-rajput". The patrilineal principle is irrelevant. By this definition, every mughal emperor beginning with Jehangir was certainly a "muslim-rajput".
 * I am very well aware of the general Pakistani antipathy for all things Indian or Hindu. I am also aware of the championing of that sentiment by the Pakistani government. This was the reason for my initial surprise at the heat with which the MR partisans pursued their objective of securing mention on this page. Perhaps you do not realise it, but the present mention of that community on this page is the result of much stridency on their part. Far be it from me to impose a Hindu caste identity on an unwilling muslim group.

 * Shivraj or whoever you are, the sockpuppetry is really getting ridiculous now. Just do yourself and everyone a favour and find another project. As for Devanagari (an abugida) or Sanskrit (6,000 claimed native speakers in to) being today's Rajput's native languages -- well, great, make sure to write that on your geocities page or whatever. Don't waste our time here any more, you are banned. dab (ᛏ) 14:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Clever, exceedingly clever. The apparent decency, the better language, the slight cluelessness on languages that may not be surprising in someone named "Will Cut bush". Man, you do have a strong will. I should have recognised "too much of a good thing" with the reference to "going to a consulate" -- what a sucker I am for a little civility. One lives and learns. ImpuMozhi 17:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see someone
Glad to see you appreciated my constructive criticsm of the article. Why is Dbachman so hostile and who is Shivraj? I can see that there was a rather lengthy debate on the topic but that doesn't mean anyone should be hostile to someone new to wikipedia. Oh well, thanks for taking my comments into consideration. About the languages comment; what I meant to say was that listing a couple of Indian languages, while not listing the rest may give the wrong impression. Perahps we could say that Rajputs beings natives of India, mainly speak languages of Indian origin, but then again that would be problem since most Indo-european languages find their roots in India. I guess do waht you see fit, Impumozhi. Also it would be more than appropriate to add an additional subsection with demographics of Rajput contirbutions in World War 1 and 2, as well as their role in the indian military forces today.William Cutbush 16:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You, sir, are what we on Wikipedia call a sockpuppet. You know it, I know it, so who are we fooling here. dab (ᛏ) 18:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Dear Mr. Bachmann, you are again descending into petty name calling and issuing threats. May I request you to be more constructive in the future? We are trying to create an encyclopedia here, in case you are not aware.

 * Medicine Man 19:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * This reminds me of a dream (nightmare) I once had: I was surrounded by sockpuppets... --Latinus 19:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * do we continue playing, or will we just slap them as they come in? Tony, are you watching this at all? dab (ᛏ) 20:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Talking about sockpuppets, what was the name of the famous one that was dressed like a sheep, it used to be popular in the 1960s and early 70s? Gorkhali 01:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC) It is really unfortunate that some editors are showing inexplicable hostility to an offer made in good faith and persist in issuing threats. In the name of a higher goal, we should ignore such semi-literate editors and work with conscientious and educated editors only.

Dear Mr. William, it is heartening to see you take interest in this besieged page and offer your valuable insight into the demographics and linguistics of the Rajputs. You are a good man and we can surely work together to get this article back to its feet.

The article in its current form is erroneous from the opening sentences itself.

(1) It gives the impression that Rajput term is applied primarily in Hindi or Gujarati languages only. This is kind of misleading. As far as I am aware Rajput word is equally frequent in usage in Rajasthani, Awadhi, Bhojpuri and many other languages. Statements like "the Kshatriyas of Bihar and eastern Uttar Pradesh still do not generally self-describe as rajputs" are plainly wrong. Also, opening para gives the impression that Kshatriya and Rajput words are synonyms. In reality, Rajputs are a subset of Kshatriyas; Jats, Yadavs, Marathas etc being others Kshatriya castes.
 * Lies of Mozhi are numerous. If Mozhi is an Indian would he like to go to Bihar and tell rajputs of Ganga belt, on there face, they are not rajputs?  Rajputs of Ganga belt are the most fierce in eastern UP and Bihar.
 * +10 000 thundering typhoons 06:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)+

(2) The article insinuates that Rajputs may have achieved Rajput status through the process of Sanskritization, which is highly disputable. In fact the phenomenon of Sansktrization is still not understood properly, and researches on this phenomenon are frequently fraught with the political biases of the researchers. Hence, it is best to avoid making such debatable claims in a callous manner.

Let’s begin by fixing these deficiencies for a start. We shall go step by step over this entire article.

Medicine Man 03:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * go ahead, feel free to make step-by-step edits. If they are uncontroversial or well sourced, they will be left standing. But, again, you are obviously not new to Wikipedia, so please use your normal account. dab (ᛏ) 10:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rajput/Archive 19


text:
Ayimagonu Festival

The Ayimagonu Festival is an annual festival celebrated by the chiefs and people of Dofor Traditional Area in the North Tongu District. It is located at a few kilometers east of Juapong in the Volta Region of Ghana. It is usually celebrated in the month of November.

Celebrations
There is a grand durbar of chiefs during the festival. Activities such as pouring of libations and chiefs riding in palanquins in the midst of singing war songs. There are pomp and pageantry activities too. The chiefs also sit in state while their subjects pay homage to them.

source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ayimagonu Festival


text:
Talk:Dennis Conner

Mr. America's Cup
Mr. America's Cup and variants should redirect here. <IP_ADDRESS> 04:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Television Interview
IIRC, Conner walked out of a TV interview (in New Zealand? Australia?). Does anyone know a bit of the history of this, and any links? <IP_ADDRESS> 15:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It was the First Holmes show, in NZ, 1989. Check the 'Paul Homes, Broadcaster' entry.

Video of this can be found on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKEMpg_Ck_M&feature=related (it was provided by TVNVOnline, who have rights to the video).

 * This is a none event. Paul Holmes attempts an ambush interview after the news that the New York court (whose decision would be overturned on appeal) had decided to strip the San Diego Yacht Club of the America's Cup.  Mr. Holmes is fishing for some sort of apology from Dennis Conner, saying that he lost the Cup this time because he cheated.  It was an outrageous claim, and there was some typical baiting going on from Holmes.  Conner had just received the news earlier, and was still processing it all.

 * Clearly Conner had put in a tremendous effort to regain the Cup, and his expectation, as was the expectation of all the participants at the regatta off Fremantle, was that the Cup would be defended in 1990, either in 12 Meters or a similar class craft that would be better suited to the lighter airs off San Diego. In his legal case against SDYC, Fay's lawyers had argued that though both boats fit the description under the deed, it was not sportsman like of Conner to sail in a boat that was so much faster.

 * For Fay to respond to the Kiwi Magic loss of the 1987 Louis Vuitton Cup Finals by having his legal team review the Deed of Gift and look for a way to turn the tables on SDYC, make them defend on Fay's terms and in boats of Fay's choosing and which he had the jump on in design strikes me as the height of poor sportsmanship.

 * The appeal court stated that they were not in the business of ruling on what was "sporting", that those questions should be argued before a recognized governing body of sailing, something which Mr. Fay had declined to do. Instead he insisted that the case be argued before the New York courts.  Both boats fit under the terms of the deed was the answer that he received, and SDYC went on to host their event in 1992, though by this time much of the sheen of the Cup had been rubbed off.  With the decision of the appeal court, it would seem that Mr. Holmes and more importantly Mr. Fay owed an apology to Conner.

 * Were they big enough men to do that? Apparently not.  Gunbirddriver (talk) 07:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Dennis Conner doesn't own the San Diego Yacht Club!
"Business Owner: 1983 - Present San Diego Yacht Club "

I'm sure Mr. Conner would be surprised to know he owns SDYC. I doubt he'd want to pay the taxes (or be responsible for the overall bar tab)!

Maybe someone has the time to make a correction

Maryyugo (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

white wash
I don't know what white wash means. Is this expression known to the general public or does it need to be explained/reformulated? --Ettrig (talk) 07:31, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Sailor mounts a challenge
Conner was a rare non-billionaire fielding a team to compete in the 2003 America's Cup

This is one of the striking aspects of his story. He was a sailor, brought on by the NYYC to sail their boat, and was roundly criticized for the loss of the Cup, even though he was clearly sailing in a slower boat. The fact that the helmsman of the yacht would walk away from that experience and decide to build his own syndicate, find sponsors and mount a challenge of his own was a remarkable occurrence. He poured everything he had into the effort, culminating in his victory at Fremantle in '87. Dennis Conner was no billionaire with a sailing hobby. He made his living selling carpet. He was a great competitor and he loved to sail. Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

We talk about professional sailors, guys like Chris Dickson, Russell Coutts, Peter Gilmour and Paul Cayard, and they are great sailors, but they are hired to sail for a syndicate. Conner wanted to sail, he wanted to get the Cup back, so he built a syndicate to enable him to do that. When you think of the millions of dollars involved in such an effort, all the coordination and work to build the syndicate, let alone the boat development, crew training and sailing in the regatta itself, you have to say that is remarkable. Gunbirddriver (talk) 21:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dennis Conner


text:
Bryant Martin Gammiero

Bryant Martin Gammiero is an American soccer player who plays as a goalkeeper.

Semi-professional & Professional
Gammiero played with NPSL side Miami United in 2018. In May 2019, he joined United Premier Soccer League side Florida Soccer Soldiers, featuring for the amateur club in its notable run in the Lamar Hunt US Open Cup, reaching the Third Round with wins over Miami FC and USL Championship's Charlotte Independence.

In September 2020, Gammiero joined Miami FC for their NISA season, making a single appearance. He stayed with the side during their move to the USL Championship in 2020. He made his USL debut on August 16, 2020, earning Miami its first league point in a 1–1 draw against rival Tampa Bay Rowdies.

Honors
Miami FC
 * National Independent Soccer Association
 * East Coast Championship (1): 2019

title: Bryant Martin Gammiero


text:
таки

Particle

 * 1)  still, after all, in spite of (everything)

Usage notes

 * May be added after almost any word to add emphasis.
 * Associated with Jewish or Odessan accent.
 * On its own, not as a suffix, e.g. it's not considered very standard or a good style.

title: таки


text:
Steve Emt

Stephen Emt (born January 6, 1970) is an American wheelchair curler.

Career
He represented the United States at the 2018 Winter Paralympics and 2022 Winter Paralympics where they finished in twelfth and fifth places respectively.

title: Steve Emt


text:
Talk:Elementary logic

Logic as Mathematics?
It would be a flaw to say that logic is a subset of mathematics. Rather, it's the other way around. Logic is at its smallest a subset of meta-mathematics. There is, I suppose, a way to approach it in mathematics but the type of introduction here probably should be a philosophy course. Mo Anabre 20:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But logic can be formulated in terms of set theory or category theory? --Hillgentleman 23:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This should be radically rewritten
This is actually a pretty poor attempt at explaining elimentary logic. Firstly, logic does not let us know if statements are true or false. Rather, it allows us to test whether propositions are valid or invalid and on a higher level if arguments are valid or fallacious.

To explain this, a proposition is a statment that can be either true or false. The current article does give good examples or propositions (I am human. 1 + 1 = 2 Roses are red and violets are blue.)

As for the operators, the basic operators are as follows:

If p and q are both propositions,

Negation: Not p (meaning p is not true) Conjunction: p and q are both true Inclusive Disjunction: p or q or both Exclusive Disjunction: p or q but not both Conditional: If p is true then q is true (but not necessarily the other way around) Biconditional: p is true if and only if q is true (meaning they are either both true or both false)

The NAND, NOR and XOR are all combinations of these (not-and, not-or and not-biconditional respectively)

 * I started merging it for you. You are welcome to insert corrections or add useful information directly into the article if it is an obvious improvement.  I appreciate you being cautious.  The local operating premise is that if we all are polite and use our best judgement the aggregate information will improve beyond our individual capabilities.  Thanks for the info!  Mirwin 06:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Elementary logic


text:
Gene regulation in prokaryotes/The lac operon

lac operon structure
In the absence of lactose, the lac repressor binds to the operator and prevents transcription of the operon.

In the presence of lactose, the repressor cannot bind to the operator and lac proteins are produced. The gene product of the lac operon digests lactose. It is only present if lactose is present.

lac mutants
Lac proteins are produced constitutively in lacI mutants and laO mutants

Lac mutants are distinguished by performing a complementation testComplementation_test by creating a heterozygous mut1/mut2. If both gene mutations are the same functional unit, no functional gene product will be made. The phenotype will remain mutant. If the genes are in different functional units, they will complement to give a wild type phenotype.

Inducer mutant
lacI+ is dominant to lacI-. lacZ and lacY are inducible in lacI+/lacI- heterozygous mutants (lacI acts in cis and trans)

lacZ and lac Y are still inducible in lacI+lacY-lacZ-/lacI-lacY+lacZ+ mutants. LacI can act in trans.

Operator mutation
lacO- mutations are cis-dominant. lacZ and lacY are constitutive.

I-d mutation
I-d mutations are dominant to I+. The repressor functions as a tetramer and the mixed wild type and I-d tetramers are unable to bind DNA.

I-s mutation
I-s (super-repressed) mutations make the lac operon uninducible. The mutant repressor binds DNA but does not respond to inducer.

Lactose/Glucose
In the presence of glucose, the lac operon cannot be induced by addition of lactose. lac operon is controlled so that cells are prevented from wasting energy metabolizing complex sugars when easily metabolized sugars are present.

cAMP-CAP
A positively acting protein called Catabolite Activator Protein (CAP) stimulates RNA polymerase binding to the promotor by binding just upstream of the RNA polymerase binding site of the promotor by binding upstream of the RNA polymerase binding site. The repressor binding site overlaps the mRNA start site.

CAP uses cAMP as a small effector molecule. cAMP accumulates in cells as they run out of glucose. At high cAMP concentrations, cAMP binds to CAP and enables CAP to bind to the lac promoter.

cAMP-CAP is also used for induction in many other sugar metabolizing operons such as arabinose (ara) and galactose (gal).


text:
Gauss's Law

The Law in Integral Form
Gauss's Law in integral form states that the electric flux, $$\Phi$$, through any closed surface is proportional to the amount of electric charge circumscribed by that surface.

Equation 1: $$\Phi = \oint_S\mathbf{E}\cdot d\mathbf{S} = \frac{q_{in}}{\varepsilon_0}$$

From above,
 * $$\Phi = EA = \frac{Q}{\varepsilon_0}$$
 * $$\varepsilon_0 E = \frac{Q}{A} = D$$

where E is the electric field vector (V/m), dS is a differential element surface normal vector (m2) belonging to the closed surface S over which the integral takes place, qin is the charge circumscribed by the surface S (C), and $$\epsilon_0$$ is the permittivity of free space (C/Vm). Note well the integral: in order to evaluate it properly, first take the dot product of the electric field and differential surface normal vectors, yielding a scalar; then integrate over the entire surface to determine the electric flux. Note also the assumption that the objects of our analysis are situated in a vacuum. If this is not the case, the permittivity of free space must be replaced with the electric permittivity of the material in question.

Derivative Form
The derivative form or the point form of the Gauss Law, can be derived by the application of the Gauss Divergence Theorem.
 * $$\oint_S\mathbf{E}\cdot d\mathbf{S} = \frac{q_{in}}{\varepsilon_0}$$
 * $$\varepsilon_0\oint_S\mathbf{E}\cdot d\mathbf{S} = q_{in}$$
 * $$\oint_S\varepsilon_0\mathbf{E}\cdot d\mathbf{S} = q_{in}$$

$$\oint_S\mathbf{D}\cdot d\mathbf{S} = q_{in}$$

From above,
 * $$DA = Q = \varepsilon_0 E$$

By the Gauss Divergence theorem, the closed surface integral may be rewritten as a volume integral.
 * $$\iiint_V \nabla\cdot \mathbf{D} dV = \iiint_V\rho dV$$

Since the integrands are equal, one concludes that: $$\nabla\cdot\mathbf{D} = \rho$$ Where $$\rho$$ is the charge density distribution inside the enclosed surface S

Derivation
As a challenging exercise in mathematics, let us now undertake to derive Gauss's Law in both integral and derivative forms from Coulomb's Law. Coulomb's Law states the following:

Equation 2:
 * $$\mathbf{F} = \frac{1}{4\pi\varepsilon_0}\frac{q_0 q_1}{r^{2}} \mathbf{\hat {r}}$$

where F is the electrical force on bodies 0 and 1 (N), $$\epsilon_0$$ is the permittivity of free space (C/Vm), q0 and q1 are the electrical charges on bodies 0 and 1 (C), r is the distance between bodies 0 and 1 (m) and $$\mathbf{\hat {r}}$$ is a radial unit vector (unitless, but indicative of the force vector's direction).

How do we convert units of volts and coulombs into newtons? Let us substitute units for the variables in Equation 2 above:

Equation 2a:
 * $$N = \frac{1}{\frac{C}{V m}}\frac{C C}{m^2} = \frac{1}{\frac{1}{V m}}\frac{C}{m^2} = V m\frac{C}{m^2} = \frac{C V}{m}$$

The units on the right cannot be simplified beyond what is shown, so we see that a newton is one coulomb-volt per meter. In other words, a one V/m electric field exerts a force of one newton on a one coulomb charge. So from this and Equation 2 we easily derive an equation for the electric field generated by a point charge q.

Equation 3
 * $$\mathbf{E} = \frac{1}{4\pi\varepsilon_0}\frac{q}{r^{2}} \mathbf{\hat {r}}$$

Okay, so clearly the electric field is radially symmetric around a point charge, and we see that at any point in space a distance r from the charge q be subjected to an electric field of magnitude E (the direction of the field E will obviously be different for each location in space). So let us construct an imaginary spherical shell of radius r centered on the charge q. This will allow us to define a quantity called the electric flux $$\Phi$$, which is a measure of the electric field strength perpendicular to a closed surface summed over that surface. Ultimately, what we are trying to accomplish is to sum up the individual contributions of each infinitesimal area to the total flux. In the case of a spherical shell and radially symmetric electric field distribution, the flux is easy to calculate, as it is simply the magnitude of the electric field multiplied by the surface area, S:

Equation 4
 * $$\Phi = \oint_S\mathbf{E}\cdot d\mathbf{S} = E S = \left(\frac{1}{4\pi\varepsilon_0}\frac{q}{r^{2}}\right) \left(4\pi r^{2}\right) = \frac{q}{\varepsilon_0}$$

Interesting! The electric flux is a constant for any spherical shell centered on the point charge q! But what about the case where a sphere surrounds, but is not centered on, the point charge q? Or what about non-spherical surfaces? Or other charge distributions, inside or outside our surface? How can we prove that a generalization of Equation 4 to all closed surfaces and charge distributions is possible?

title: Gauss's Law


text:
User:Dharp66

D Harp is a man born in 1966. He lives in the southwestern united states & is a public high school teacher

title: User:Dharp66


text:
Talk:Sexual Psychology

Untitled
Since I first posted on here, I've changed my mind completely about the layout of the book. I think now that a more conventional layout is desirable. Below is an outline of what I'm thinking about right now.

The general notion is that, aside from the usual TOC, index, etc., the book will have two large sections. The first is the traditional textbook part, providing the info one would find in any human sexuality text, while the second zooms in to focus on topics that are particularly hot right now outside the academy. Homo- and bisexuality, for example, are all over the news, what with the Federal Marriage Amendment and related stuff. I'm also looking at info on sex education, rape, and pornography, all of which are politically charged and directly relevant to the lives of your average undergrad. Take a look at the outline and let me know what you think.

Front Matter
Contents Preface

Section 1 - The Usual
Chapter 1 - Introduction and History
 * Intro: what this book's about, prerequisites, thanks
 * History: from Aristotle to those German guys

Chapter 2 - Theoretical Perspectives
 * Feminism:
 * Social Exchange & Choice:
 * Scripting:

Chapter 3 - Who's Doing What
 * Number of Partners: Problems of sex surveys, fake gender difference, numbers
 * Premarital Sex: trends, acceptability, problems (incl. teen pregnancy)
 * Marital & Extramarital Sex: trends (in marriage & extramarital sex), acceptability, stability of marriage

Chapter 4 - Men & Women
 * Differences: need more detail

Chapter 5 - Intimate Relationships
 * Attraction:
 * Love:
 * Dissolution:

Chapter 6 - Special Topics in Sex
 * Special Topics: childhood, old age, homosexuality, fetishes

Chapter 7 - STIs
 * AIDS: history, incidence, trends
 * Common STIs: herpes, HPV, etc.

Section 2 - Controversies
Chapter 8 - Rape
 * Outline of the Controversey:
 * General: fantasies, consensual non-consensuality, arguments about incidence & cause, where takes place
 * Perpetrators: how they differ from others
 * Victims: how they differ from others, effects on
 * Legal Issues:

Chapter 9 - Sex Education
 * Outline of the Controversey:
 * History:
 * Research: abstinence only, comprehensive, none

Chapter 10 - Pornography
 * Outline of the Controversey:
 * History:
 * Research: types, who uses, how much, does it cause violence

Chapter 11 - Homo, Bi, Trans
 * Outline of the Controversey:
 * History:
 * Research: defined, incidence, marriage, gender dysphoria

End Matter
Bibliography Index Blank Pages that Serve No Apparent Purpose --George McAllister 21:10, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

other topics
lgbt and other already on other places

title: Talk:Sexual Psychology


text:
Talk:Denis Carter, Baron Carter

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title: Talk:Denis Carter, Baron Carter