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Talk:Nautical fiction

Collaboration
, I would welcome collaboration on this article if you like. I am likely going to redirect over Sea story, because that is not frequently how the genre is represented in scholarship. My goal is to do a DYK within the next couple weeks, and possibly to push it towards GA. Sadads (talk) 16:15, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Sadads I will try and help. Rwood128 (talk) 16:36, 10 February 2015 (UTC) I will try also to help. The Mad Hatter (talk)

 * Sadads I notice that Conrad's Heart of Darkness is included. I think that this is right, though it is really a river story – like Huckleberry Finn. There is a grave danger of this article being mainly about English-speaking writers. Also might it not be better to change the title to Nautical literature, so as to be fully inclusive? Then a poem like Seafarer could then be included. Rwood128 (talk) 01:47, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem with "nautical literature" is that it opens us up to the scope creep of non-fiction before the 18th century (like travel narratives) and the kinds of plays and operas that simply have "nautical" settings (I just read the Klein, Bernhard, ed. (2002). Fictions of the Sea. Critical Perspectives on the Ocean in British Literature and Culture., which has this scope creep, and about half the articles where nautical and traval history studies or Shakespearian plays with nautical settings: which in my mind, is a bit dangerous, because it conflates widely different narrative forms and forms of scholarship, for the sake of a common setting; instead of the scholarly move I am making here: which puts a clearer genesis with antecedents that aren't part of the genre, but influence it). In part this is a judgement call, in part this a frustration on my part that we don't have a "Sea novel/fiction" article; in part, this reflects a need for an article on "Early modern travel literature/writing" which is a dominate literary move in European cultures from ~16th century to the mid 18th century and subsumes works like Robinson Crusoe, which offers a modifcation of that larger narrative style. There is a distinct change post Cooper/Marryat, that creates a whole bunch of plays, short stories, novels, movies, games, etc. that is a distinct cultural move in and of itself, focused on heroism, masculinity, realism, and the naval/nautical setting. As someone who has read a fair bit of both, I can't help to agree with the moves made by Iglesias and others when they state Cooper as a distinct "first"; even though, I partially think that scholarship is just a move to push Coopers' importance as the first "American novelist" so to speak.Sadads (talk) 02:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Sadads, yes that sounds sensible. I read the plot summary of Hugo's Toilers of the Sea and wonder if it is really a sea novel. In Heart of Darkness Marlow is of course is a seaman, even if he's on a river boat. I don't know Cooper's sea stories and hadn't realized that he'd served in the navy -- must check one of those novels. The scholarship sounds very useful. I'm very interested in James Hanley, a working-class writer about the sea. He grew-up close to the Liverpool docks and came from a family of seamen, and briefly worked on merchant ships himself. There some discussion of working-class seamen writers in Ken Worpole's Dockers and Detectives. This is a great project that you've undertaken. Rwood128 (talk) 12:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Glad you think its good! Always appreciate your feedback. I am going to be writing a section on social class and excersize of power in the themes sections: its one of the most consistent themes I have seen in the works, and there appears to be plenty of scholarship that supports this as a dominant literary convention, as well as a dominate historical theme. Just ordered Ken Worpole's Dockers and Detectives from Inter-library loan: looks like an interesting book, growing out cultural studies, et.al. Sadads (talk) 03:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Should Dana's Two Years Before the Mast be included, even though is a memoir (or at least mentioned)? Rwood128 (talk) 12:32, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It probably deserves mention, I have seen a couple references of it unintentionally (at least for the author) reinforcing the conventions of the genre: Probably will get worked into the history, Sadads (talk) 03:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Guys, I suggest there should be clear distinction between Pirate fiction and just Nautical fiction. I suggest we make seperate sections because Treasure Island and Sandokan are clearly early exemples of Nautical fiction yet Pirate fiction and you have clearly included them.The Mad Hatter (talk)

 * This is of interest: The Guardian, " Carsten Jensen's top 10 seafaring tales"

Jensen's seafaring novel We, the drowned, got some impressive reviews. Rwood128 (talk) 01:18, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Post-modern deconstruction
Re: 'William Golding's To the Ends of the Earth trilogy, explores the complexities of what constitutes a stable and acceptable masculine role through post-modern deconstruction', less academic language is needed. Actually the example that follows doesn't sound very post-modern. Rwood128 (talk) 22:18, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, the description by the scholar, in some ways, its very typical of the post modern, in the line of John Fowles's The French Lieutenants Women (having read the first two books in the series I also agree with the scholars assessment). I put in a link that is much more specific in the concept of deconstruction in the post-modern sense. Really, its not so much that the approach or narrative style is abstract, but rather it leads to a number of ambiguities and subjectivities that strike at the core of identity and the structures surrounding knowledge. I would be very remiss to remove the concept, because it waters down the meaning and argument behind the argument made by the scholar. I will message it in more, especially as I read more of the scholarship I am collecting. Most of my work up to this point, has been very author specific. Its nice to do a composite survey, its reminding me why I got into literary studies to begin with :) Sadads (talk) 03:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Different kinds of ships
Perhaps there is a need to emphasize more the different kinds of sea stories: There are those about naval ships (and warfare); fishing boats (including of course whalers); liners; cargo boats; and of course sail and steam. Another sub-genre would be stories about sinking ships. Rwood128 (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thats an interesting concept, especially when we think of authors like Tom Clancy and Clive Cussler, which have shifted a lot of conventions of the thriller into the genre. I  will keep an eye out for scholarship looking at the developments in the 20th century, and the doing the kinds of boundary work we are talking about here. There is a tendency to privilege the Forester - O'Brian line (which dominates "sea fiction" in the publishing world), while also signalling the importance of literary authors like Goldman.  Sadads (talk) 03:15, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

And what about Clemens
This is nicely crafted as a new article. Did you think about including Samuel Clemens and the riverboat narratives on the Mississippi? Also there is no mention of the biblical narratives of the flood and Noah's ark, or, of the Sea of Galilee and the fishermen. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 02:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi : Clemens is a good point; I am not seeing him often aligned with these works (will keep an eye out for that). Especially in the inclusion of Mellville, London, and Conrad in most of the studies, you would think they would allude to Clemen's works. Its probably because they often include a different tone.
 * As a deliberate scholarly move, I am sticking away from non-fiction, myth and traditional narratives, and broad definitions of the genre (see above discussion, and I plan on working on the definition section this weekend, if I have the time). That being said, I think there is plenty of room for an article like Biography in literature for Sea in literature, which can deal with the range of conventions: such as the Ocean or Sea as symbol; thematic uses of ocean travel; and the mythological implications of the concept. This would require a very ambitious, and broad sweeping article however, which I don't have the interest or energy for: in my opinion, studies that try to do this, tend to fail, because they start making broader generalizations than I am making already. Thanks for the feedback, Sadads (talk) 03:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Re riverboats, maybe even Conrad's Heart of Darkness isn't a true example of a sea story? Rwood128 (talk) 12:47, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * See also: The African Queen is a 1935 novel written by English author C. S. Forester, which was adapted to the 1951 film with the same name. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 18:17, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

LawrencePrincipe, I don't really understand why you mention The African Queen, as it is another river story and the main characters aren't seamen. It doesn't seem to be relevant to the article, even though by C. S Forester. Rwood128 (talk) 23:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Your mention of Heart of Darkness seemed to suggest it. If you are setting up a priority between Oceans, and Seas, and Rivers, (excluding the latter) then that is fine too. Cheers. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 23:09, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

LawrencePrincipe, sorry I should have been clearer. I was in fact suggesting that, perhaps, H of D should be excluded, because it isn't nautical, though, because of the seaman Marlow, that is certainly debatable. The African Queen, however, doesn't seem to have any connection to the sea. Rwood128 (talk) 23:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Heart of Darkness is one that is consistently mentioned ad nauseum as part of the genre in the scholarship (I think because it involves sailors, and because it takes place on a boat). This is part of the reason I am opting for "Nautical fiction" as the title, because it moves further away from pure "sea" and more a focus on nautical culture.Sadads (talk) 05:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * sadads and rwood; It would be a large move to include river novels. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

LawrencePrincipe, the whole ethos and symbolism associated with river stories is somewhat different from maritime fiction. Rwood128 (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Sadads and LawrencePrincipe, of Joseph Conrad's works Lord Jim and Typhoon should probably be given the most attention. Rwood128 (talk) 16:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed: I haven't gotten to the section in Peck's book that covers Conrad, Jack London and Kipling: which are all very important for the later 20th century moves. Sadads (talk) 17:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Conrad as modernist is a hard sell. Perhaps try late romanticism for him. If this article is based mostly on two main sources Peck and Klein,then perhaps mention this with more recognition at the start. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 19:46, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * On the issue of two sources; I have a pile of books, and a whole bunch of journal articles on my reading list: however, I am working two intellectual labor jobs, so work on the research for this article is a slow and steady thing when I am not mentally exhausted from those. The latest batch of additions, was me attempting to avoid other work :P I am running with the work in progress assumption. I do know my limiting of the definition (as described below), does a fairly good scholarly consensus: acknowledging the definition we are using as limited, but giving framework for weighing the possible alternatives (and pointing to other parts of Wikipedia that deal with these other possible scopes). Sadads (talk) 22:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * My Rephrase here. It's good to have many sources. Who are the top two or three here... LawrencePrincipe (talk) 03:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's that simple – I've a feeling that this is debatable – but my brain is tired. Isn't Heart of Darkness in particular seen as one of the early modernist works? Anyhow someone like John Cowper Powys is both late romantic and modernist: Walter Scott crossed with Dostoievski. Arnold Schoenberg is another modernist/romantic. Rwood128 (talk) 20:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC).
 * Treating Conrad as early modernist is typical in literature classrooms, but not neccessarily "true" because, as far as I understand it, he didn't buy in to the literary movement pushing for those changes; its more an Edwardian straddle of Modernist and pre-modernist interests; and he is more a product of late Victorian values, ideologies and interests, than many of his contemporaries. Sadads (talk) 22:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadads I think that you are both right and wrong. Some think he is others differ. But see the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Wikipedia Joseph Conrad, etc, etc., for the pro side: "Feminist and postcolonialist readings of Modernist works have focused on Conrad and have confirmed his centrality to Modernism and to the general understanding of it" ("Joseph Conrad." Encyclopaedia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Online Academic Edition. Encyclopædia Britannica Inc., 2015. Web. 05 Mar. 2015. <http://academic.eb.com.qe2a-proxy.mun.ca/EBchecked/topic/133148/Joseph-Conrad).
 * Use of Conrad to support modernist comment is not to call him a modernist. It seems simpler to use sadads late Victorian attribution. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 03:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Fenimore Cooper
I came upon the following which looks important for the early history of the genre:
 * "In the 1849 "Preface" to The Pilot, Cooper narrates how his dissatisfaction with the representation of technical knowledge, nautical language, and seafaring life in The Pirate by Walter Scott prompted a literary response that dramatizes the patriotic exploits of mariners led by John Paul Jones in a raid off the coast of Britain during the Revolutionary War. But in addition to nautical verisimilitude, the nature of legitimate political authority is at stake in both works, and so in The Pilot Cooper adapts a scene from The Pirate that enacts a central problem of democracy—in popular governments factions form, and sap a state’s ability to function as a collective unit."

Rwood128 (talk) 12:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Adding to the section I just expanded, Sadads (talk) 05:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadads good to see you back working on this, especially the adding of more on Melville and Cooper. What about novels about slave ships? Is that important? Just a thought, I was initially thinking of novels about ships carrying colonists to Australia and the USA. Rwood128 (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Different types of voyages and ships seems like a really relevant "setting" section: describing the scope of different spaces that are used for their novels, and their relative tendencies (the navy as a space for social commentary, fishing vessels in the American context, life raft stories (Life of Pi and The Open Boat), and the importance of slave ship and other exile narratives (i.e. Australia. For instance Goldman's novels in To_the_Ends_of_the_Earth have the connection to this in the background. I would be very surprised if the literary studies community in Australia hasn't dealt with this, by example.Sadads (talk) 17:39, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Children's literature
A recent review (TLS, 6 Feb., p.22) of Books for Children, Books for Adults, by Teresa Michals, comments on how in the late Victorian period "adventure stories became increasingly identified with young male readers". This seems to be relevant for at least some sea stories. Rwood128 (talk) 12:37, 18 February 2015 (UTC).

Mr Midshipman Easy and Westward Ho! are obvious examples. Rwood128 (talk) 13:35, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you have a link? That is a claim I just saw on a website. Not sure how much I believe that claim, but it would be interesting to get a few less casual and more scholarly assessments of that situation in the publishing market. Sadads (talk) 05:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadads, I took a quick look at Michals' book but it didn't seem to be use. I think that this is, however, a valid historical fact and I remember seeing something in reference to the decline in Walter Scott's reputation. A Google search shows that this is true for Mr Midshipman Easy (various example from Googlebooks), and on Wikipedia I found this for Westward Ho!: "Although originally written for adults, its mixture of patriotism, sentiment and romance deemed it suitable for children, and it became a firm favourite of children's literature. ." A good guide to children's literature should provide the full story. Rwood128 (talk) 14:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

 * I now realize that there are children's editions of these novels, suitable expurgated, as there are for Gulliver's Travels and Robinson Crusoe. This is not surprising given Marryatt's subsequent reputation as a writer for children. I found this online: "unique RARE and HARD to FIND 1954 EDITION of the classic children's novel. "Mr. Midshipman Easy" is Captain Marryat's thrilling story of the sea and Mr. Midshipman (Jack) Easy's adventures". Some quick research suggests that Jules Verne wrote several nautical novels, some published in Boys Own Paper. Rwood128 (talk) 17:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow! What a great set of discoveries! I have been so focused on the adult items, that I have missed this conversation entirely. Makes a lot of sense though: several of Patrick O'Brian's novels are definitely focused on YA audiences, and Forrestor's seem to be thought of as "entry level" historical fiction for young readers. It would be great if you did a section on the children's lit iterations of the genre (this actually is getting me very interested in that whole subgenre, I wonder how good the scholarship is, these kinds of works tend to be undercovered subgenres). Sadads (talk) 17:42, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Tobias Smollett and Byron
The article focusses on the idea of Fenimore Cooper being the first real writer in this genre, with only brief reference Tobias Smollett, and other writers in the genre. I've also seen reference to Lord Byron's narrative poem, The Corsair. This would seem to be worth mentioning – I'm seeing fiction as anything that tells a story and there's an opera Il Corsaro by Giuseppe Verdi based on Byron's poem. Byron was of course a major influence on other writers, musicians, etc. at the beginning of the nineteenth century. Rwood128 (talk) 13:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Rwood: Byron's work is not "fiction" persay - and isn't actually an investigation of nautical culture; and Tobias Smollett's work is clearly picaresque, which happens to have naval settings for a few sections. I appreciate the enthusiasm for finding examples to expand the definition of the genre: but again, and again, I am running into a distinction between the conventional genre in the scholarship, and what happens to have a nautical setting and seems like it might fit this concept if we were discussing thematically or topically Sea in culture. If you can find sources that write these into the genesis and development of the genre: that is fine; however, we can't just pull in examples without backing them up; this is one of those moments where we need to opt into "Verifiability not truth" per WP:V. Sadads (talk) 16:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadads, I wasn't suggesting that either of these authors was central, just that they possibly need to be given a little space. I haven't, however, read either work. All the same what I read about Roderick Random suggests that it deals with the experiences of a naval surgeon at sea, so that it would give insight into another (unromantic) aspect of early life at sea. With regard to Byron's The Corsair, surely a narrative poem is fiction (certainly within the broad definition given at the beginning of the article) -- personally I'd prefer that the article focussed just on the novel. Even then a dramatist like Eugene O'Neill was an influence, so that he would have to be mentioned. I see that fiction includes (correctly) song.

I appreciate your difficulty in establishing a focus here, especially given the different kinds of settings for nautical fiction. The life of a fisherman, for example, is totally different from that of a naval officer, as is that of a woman on a Viking ship! I sense that might you'd prefer a narrower focus? Rwood128 (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC) Rwood128 (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Connections to space opera
I was thinking how the Honorverse series is based on the Hornblower series, and how this article doesn't even mention the world space opera, or science fiction. I think there is a number of works in science fiction (and some in fantasy) that are also part of the nautical fiction genre. This article probably should discuss that. In particular something along the "sea of stars" concept. If there are any RS for that, of course... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Sounds interesting, and in the TV mini-series Ascension the captain owns Columbus's compass. However, though the analogies are worth mentioning, I think that this article should keep its main focus on on the sea and the novel. There should be space, however, for a survey of theatre, opera, science fiction, narrative poetry, etc.Rwood128 (talk) 11:59, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

A short check list

 * Shakespeare contributions should be mentioned. Antony and Cleopatra and the battle at sea with Rome, and The Tempest on the island only reached by sea.--
 * Reply: Yes, the importance of the sea in his plays needs to be touched on, but the main concern of this article appears to be the novel. Don't forget the storm in Othello. Perhaps there can be a section on 'The sea on the stage', that would include Eugene O'Neill.
 * None of these works fall within the standard definition of "nautical fiction": works set on board a ship, with deep nautical detail, and a focus on nautical culture. Sadads (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Jane Austen Persuasion has multiple characters and interactions with and by the sea, does not appear to be mentioned.---
 * Austen's depiction of midshipmen is touched upon, and should be developed a little more. But she obviously doesn't write nautical novels, so is only of marginal importance here.
 * Per above, Sadads (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Golding and Lord of the Flies is mentioned or is not mentioned. --
 * How is this a nautical novel? Do you mean Pincher Martin?

 * One section dealing with sea disasters and disasters at sea, a common theme in literature whether ship wreck or prominent storm and their after effects.--
 * agreed.

 * If the article is fully excluding rivers, harbors, bays, inlets, etc, then the article should say this at the start. No difficulty if they are excluded, only say this at the start. For example, A River Runs Through It appears to be outside this article. --
 * The article will presumably d/w novels that are in part are set in fishing villages or sea ports, but rivers have already been commented on. The lede seems to be clear re rivers and the shore.

 * The two lead authorities being used for this article prefer the terms "fiction at sea" and "sea fiction", which appear only parenthetically at the start of the article. ––
 * is this that important? I'd prefer Nautical or Maritime novel, myself.
 * All the searches come up with similar items, and all are interchangible when you start researching. Nautical and naval fiction seem to be the standard amongst fans, publishers and digital resources; sea fiction, though usually a stand-in for the genre, sometimes goes a bit farther abroad, but not much. In general, these boundaries allide: but all of the scholarship I read points to a "standard" Cooper, Marryat, Mellvile, Conrad, Forestor, O'Brian line, Sadads (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

 * At present, Moby Dick appears to be in a class by itself, often called "the great American novel". Should it be mentioned casually next to the other titles chosen in this article because of some shared attributes with the other literary works. --
 * Moby Dick, I suppose belongs in a section on novels about fishing. Moby Dick is generally considered the greatest sea story and therefore deserve full treatment. A full, separate discussion of MD along with "Billy Budd" and Melville's other sea novels.

 * Conrad as an early modernist continues to sound off-center. I have no trouble with Joyce as an early modernist or with Chekhov as an early modernist in theatre. Conrad and Joyce do not appear to be clearly linked by literary ties in the Joyce studies I have seen. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 23:54, 10 March 2015 (UTC) --
 * Re Conrad and modernism, this is of course debatable, but numerous sources describe him as a modernist, as noted already. I will add a citation to settle this controversy – or maybe a note would be better, so as to include both points of view.

 * I have added some responses to these points. Rwood128 (talk) 00:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Boundaries
Re the discussion above. I agree with Sadads idea that the article should focus on works where the main setting, or an important setting as in Conrad's Chance, is the sea.

Matters would be simplified if the lede is changed so that the article is just about novels, novellas and short stories". Currently it is about 'Nautical literature'. See definitions of fiction: "Types of literature in the fiction genre include the novel, short story, and novella" (Britannica); "literature in the form of prose, esp. short stories and novels, that describes imaginary events and people" (New Oxford American Dictionary). I have problems with the use of the word fiction to describe anything else. Is it commonly used this way by anyone, other than a specialized lit crit group? A quick Google search suggests that it isn't common. Rwood128 (talk) 13:18, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds great! Sadads (talk) 13:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I unthinkingly deleted graphic novel in my recent edit, but it is covered by the definition, surely. TV drama is, however, no more fiction than opera, though fictional. Rwood128 (talk) 13:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thats fine: we can wait til we have scholarship which includes these as examples (I was just thinking about how some people elide the films and TV, like the Hornblower tv series with the works themselves, and they are treated with the same generic expectations). Sadads (talk) 16:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it would be logical to include them when discussing the novels, but then the subject would be adaptations and not fiction. Rwood128 (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the real focus on clarification and attention to detail clarity; and I shouldn't have called the "fiction" definition silly: just I can see starting to pull definitions like that that we would run down the rabbit hole of drawing those boundaries (which is not the goal here, I would think). Your right in that the concept of literary adaptation is what I was getting at in part (though I imagine their are nautical films that often get treated as a compatable influence, esp. in Post-World War II materials. Sadads (talk) 17:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Re the latest revision, including "will also get grouped under the broader genre". This is imprecise, the adaptations will be drama not novels/fiction. Sorry Sadads to be so picky. Rwood128 (talk) 17:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * See the latest pass, maybe that makes a bit more sense (I am trying to communicate how the generic expectations are in conversation influence these larger artistic modes). Sadads (talk) 17:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadads Aren't you relying a little too much on Peck? Rwood128 (talk)
 * Peck
 * I have since tried to reduce the emphasis, by removing his name in a couple of places and in others removing the word critic. Rwood128 (talk) 17:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, most definitely: its just the first book I read when working on the article. The recent changes make sense, and I am going to work on a couple, more book-length sources in the next few weeks, so should be able to contribute more in that window. Sadads (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Sadads, I failed to comment on the great work you have done. Rwood128 (talk) 12:01, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Fishers and fishing villages
 * I keep coming across novels set in fishing villages and I'll try and do a little research into this topic, if I can find any time. This is probably an under researched area. See Rockbound and I Malavoglia, in addition to Carsten Jensen's We, the drowned, Hans Kirk's The Fishermen, Pierre Loti's The Iceland Fishermen and Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea, that are on the article's list. I still think, however, that the article should focus on works where the main, or major episodes take place at sea. Therefore the lede probably needs revision from: "a genre of literature with a setting on or near the sea". to: a genre of literature where the main or a major setting is on the sea. This is again a question of where to draw the boundary. James Hanley wrote a sequence of novels about a Liverpool–Irish seafaring family but I don't remember any direct scenes set at sea, though life at sea is obviously important, especially including the impact on the women at home. There is also the subject of seamen's experiences in the areas in ports known as Sailortown, as discussed in the essay by Valerie Burton, in Klein's book. Rwood128 (talk)
 * Thats an interesting phenomena: I also recently noticed that a generic Sailortown and/or Dockland article doesn't exist, just redirects/specific cases (which would be a really relevant space to talk about these in fiction as a subsection). We should definitely draft up a start-class article for this, just to take over the redirects, and create a parking space to talk about these issues, Sadads (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Pictures?
I just stumbled upon this article in the DYK section, and since it is a subject close to my heart I can't help but getting involved. It would be nice to have some pics in the article especially with the DYK in mind. Here are some suggestions:

The Two Years Before the Mast cover would make an excellent main pic for this article, it doesn't get more maritime than this. But then again it might be misleading since it is already used in that article. Perhaps just a maritime painting? I'm sure other pics can be found, and it would make the article more interesting. Best, w.carter -Talk  20:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Had the same thought, re the need for illustrations, though I don't entirely understand the concept of a main picture – do you mean the first? Rwood128 (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep. The one up top right that represent the article in a sort of way, usually the one used in the DYK as well. I have no idea what the correct Wiki-name for it is, but I hope that you get the idea. In this case I would go with a slightly bigger than |thumb| size for it, say 300px. (Strike that, tried it, it was too much since it is an upright pic. Normal thumb is good enough.) The body of the text is large enough to balance it and it would look magnificent. (Just my personal opinion though.) w.carter -Talk  21:04, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I would avoid Two Years before the mast for the main picture - its not really nautical fiction, though it looks good: but the Moby Dick image is very much the epitome of the genre. I would also be interested in seeing something from commons:Category:Sailors_in_art in there as well: its always worth it to talk about the context, Sadads (talk) 00:00, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I added a few of the images, but would appreciate more if we can find them. Sadads (talk) 16:59, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Sadads just back from holiday. I like the additions. Rwood128 (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

History
The following sentence doesn't make sense: "First with the Enlightenment practical and pragmatic economic opportunities brought by the sea as represented by nautical dramas". I presume that "dramas" refers to plays, so it would help if they were identified, but there is a need for a fuller discussion of this topic to make things clearer. Rwood128 (talk) 20:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

 * The discussion of works like The Female Marine of 1815, and similar works, suggests that the article needs to be revised to better take into account the early history of sea stories. Rwood128 (talk) 20:31, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

The heading 'Themes'
I'm pondering the recent edits. I've always had a problem with the word 'theme'; are, for example, 'Working class at sea' or 'Women at sea' themes? Perhaps these should be main headings (or is it simply a matter of revising the wording)? I'll try and work on revised versions of the the two deleted sections, with some preamble so that they are better integrated into the article.

On other matters:
 * There is no discussion of the effect on nautical literature of technological change -- the words 'sail' and 'steam' are absent, other than a link to Age of Sail in a caption to an image.
 * Shouldn't there be a section on 18th century picaresque sea fiction?

Rwood128 (talk) 13:02, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

In Hazard
I'm a little puzzled by the comments attached to this deletion: "Masculinity and heroism: weird paragraph, completely out of context, doesn't follow the same theme (look like original research).) "

The discussion of Hughes's novel is about masculinity and heroism, and is based on a source. Is the problem, perhaps, that it isn't sufficiently integrated into the surrounding text? I'm puzzled. Rwood128 (talk) 13:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The paragraph that was there, was simply a summary of the plot. Moreover, you didn't have any secondary sources verifying the claim that the novel is in fact about masculinity-> remember, we are treating the theme as a scholarly topic of analysis, not simply as something that exists because its obvious. In general, the paragraphs that you have been drawing from other articles don't address thematic issues, nor are integrated into the article itself (for example, what value does it add the reader to have someones' biographical information? Are you implying that someone's biography alters their ability to write nautical fiction? If so, that would be WP:SYNTH, which is original research). We should have a paragraph or section about biographical experiences of authors, if and only if, that is a central theme of the scholarship (which it is for some authors, and not for others, but you need to make sure its actually in the source). Sadads (talk) 15:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Sadads it's good to have your comments, which, after some thought, I basically agree with. However, the material in the two sections deleted would be a useful, and interesting, addition, if we can find a way of integrating them. Rwood128 (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Notable works
This heading should be changed, because it now consists of works not yet discussed in the body of this article, i.e. most are therefore not notable. Rwood128 (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * They are notable works, they are just "other" than what has been the core of the article. I like the current version, Sadads (talk) 15:59, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Sadads I'm presuming that you are referring to my recent revised heading. Rwood128 (talk) 18:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Life ashore
Given that nautical fiction "is a genre of literature with a setting on or near the sea, that focuses on the human relationship to the sea and sea voyages and highlights nautical culture in these environments", I'm considering adding a section on "Life ashore". This will include seamen's experiences of sailor town – that area of public houses, brothels, lodgings, etc, close to the docks which caters to their needs away from home – as well as their experiences in their home port and those of their families ashore. Any suggestions for works that might be included? Rwood128 (talk) 20:21, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Sailing on rivers, lakes or canals
The definition excludes riverboats on the Mississippi as stated above (or on the Danube or Rhine in Europe or the Murray in Australia). It also excludes Arthur Ransome’s childrens’ novels about sailing small yachts in the English Lake District or on the Norfolk Broads (although four in the Swallows and Amazons series (1930-1947) involve sailing at sea: (Peter Duck, We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea, Missee Lee and Great Northern?) hence have added them Hugo999 (talk) 01:02, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nautical fiction


text:
Brewood Grammar School

Brewood Grammar School was a boys' school in the village of Brewood in South Staffordshire, England.

Founded in the mid 15th century by the Bishop of Lichfield as a chantry school it was closed by the Dissolution of Chantries Act 1547. It was re-founded by Matthew Knightley and Sir Thomas Gifford in 1553 and survived as a grammar school until 1975 when its last headmaster, Roy Leafe, retired. It then became a mixed-sex middle school in 1977. As a 20th-century grammar school it took a number of boarders half of whom lived in the school itself and the rest lived at Wheaton Aston Hall, and taught agricultural science. The school had a small attached farm with cattle and poultry.

The original building does not survive. The earliest part of the remaining buildings, originally two houses donated to the school, dates from 1778. In 1799 these were enclosed in the school grounds by moving the road. They were rebuilt in 1856 as Rushall House (now Grade II listed ) and used as a schoolroom and dormitories. In 1863 the headmaster's house was rebuilt, and further extensions to the school were made in 1898, 1926, 1935, and 1952.

The school is commemorated in a recent memorial window in the nearby parish church, St Mary and St Chad.

Notable staff

 * William Budworth (1699–1745) was headmaster here and declined to employ Samuel Johnson as an usher in 1736.
 * George Croft (1747–1809), an English clergyman, headmaster 1780-1791.
 * Mary Whitehouse (1910–2001), the TV/radio clean-up campaigner, was once a teacher at the school earlier in her teaching career.
 * Sir Patrick Cormack (born 1939), Conservative MP from 1970 to 2010, was head of history at the school from 1969 to 1970.

source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Brewood Grammar School


text:
Skirwith Cave

Skirwith Cave is a major resurgence solutional cave on Ingleborough in Chapel-le-Dale, North Yorkshire, England; it was a show cave between 1964 and 1974. It is no longer open to the public but is still visited by cavers. It lies within the designated Ingleborough Site of Special Scientific Interest.

Description
The current entrance is through an opening in a small shakehole. This drops into a well-decorated rift passage, which was part of the former show cave. A levelled floor reaches a boulder choke which once had a flight of steps leading over it; this is now covered by a boulder collapse. The show cave terminated at a 5 m waterfall. Above this, a long, mainly low, wet passage reaches a sump after several hundred metres. This is the first of three short sumps separated by short sections of passage. The fourth sump has been dived for 24 m to an underwater boulder choke. The cave has no inlet passages in its 1000 m length.

Geology and hydrology
Skirwith Cave is a solutional cave formed in the lowest beds of the Visean Great Scar limestone from the Mississippian Series of the Carboniferous period, which here lies unconformably on impervious Ordovician rocks. The cave runs up dip NNE towards the valley of Crina Bottom, and drains the area around Boggarts Roaring Holes on the other side of the valley, although in times of flood it also takes water from overflow sinks in Crina Bottom itself. A fragment of the continuing passage has been entered from Lower Hardgill Pot, some 400 m away in Crina Bottom. The water resurges on the basal unconformity.

History
It is thought that the cave was first entered by locals in 1934, and at least some of the upstream passages were further explored by members of the Yorkshire Ramblers' Club in 1935. By 1947, the cave had been fully explored to the first sump. The sumps were explored in 1965 and 1966 by members of the Happy Wanderers Cave and Pothole Club.

The cave was opened as a show cave in 1964; it was always a smaller commercial operation than the nearby showcaves Ingleborough and White Scar, and more difficult of access for visitors. Blasting from the local quarry destabilized the roof and boulder piles, and the cave was closed in 1974. Little evidence remains above ground of its use as a show cave.

title: Skirwith Cave


text:
Primary Mathematics/Subtracting numbers

Subtracting numbers
Subtraction is when we ask the question, if I have this many, and take away that many, how many are left? Like I may have 7 apples, but I eat 2, so I have 7-2 = 5 left.

We are not allowed to subtract a larger natural number from a smaller one because we can not have less than zero of anything.

Subtraction is just addition reversed. You can see this in the following way. If I have an addition, like 3+5 = 8, I can write it in a triangle like so:

8  / \  3 + 5

Now the left side and the right side of the triangle are two subtractions: 8 - 3 = 5, and 8 - 5 = 3. This nicely shows that when you subtract, say, 8 - 5, you want to know what the other leg of the triangle is, given that the top is 8 and one leg is 5. To say this in another way, you want to know what must be added to 5 to get 8.

Below is a subtraction table for small numbers. To use it, find your first number in the left column, your second number in the top row. Then the difference is found where that row and column intersect. These differences follow a very regular pattern and are easy to remember with a little practice.

Subtraction with large numbers
When larger numbers are involved, use the following procedure. Subtraction is more complicated than addition, so pen and paper are usually required.

 * Start with the right-most digit of each number.
 * If the answer of subtracting these digits will not be less than zero, subtract these digits. The answer is the right-most digit of the answer.
 * In this case, move one digit left in each number and repeat the process.
 * If it was not possible to perform the subtraction because the result would be less than zero, add 10 to the digit of the first number to make the subtraction possible. Do the subtraction, the answer is the right-most digit of the answer.
 * Reduce the next digit to the left in the first number by 1. This will be possible if that digit is 1 or more.
 * If reducing that digit was possible, the borrowing procedure is complete. Continue to the next round, moving one digit to the left in each number.  You will now use the reduced digit in the next round.
 * If reducing that digit was not possible because it was 0, add 10 to it and then reduce it by one. Now one must borrow again from next left digit.  Reduce the next digit to the left by 1, borrowing again if it is 0.  Continue this process until you reduce by 1 a digit that is 1 or more.  Then the borrowing procedure is complete.  Repeat the process with the next digit of each number.  You will now be using the first of the reduced digits in the next round.

To make this clearer, see the examples below.

Example 1, no borrowing required.

36   36 -  5, -  5         ∴36-5=31    1    31

Example 2, 1 round of borrowing required.

3   3  40   4 0   4 0 - 2, - 2, - 2 ---  ---  ---　　　　　∴40-2=38   8    8   38

Example 3, 2 rounds of borrowing required.

09   09  100   10 0   10 0 - 15, - 15, - 15  ---   ---   ---     　∴100-15=85    5     5    85

Teaching subtraction
Subtracting numbers and adding numbers should be taught together, the process of teaching subtraction is the same as teaching addition. You should not teach children negative numbers at a young age as there is no way to physically show them a negative number.

As with addition it is important for children to remember the simple combinations of single digit numbers. Moving to 2 digit addition (having learnt place values), start with simple problems:

45 -32 === first 5-2=3 second 40-30=10

45 -32 ===  3  10

then add

45 -32 ===  3  10 ===  13

To get the answer.

When this is grasped move on to harder problems:

52 -35 ====

There are 2 methods that I would like to illustrate, the first uses carrying:

Start by saying that 5 is bigger than 2 so we take 10 from the 50 and add it to the 2 to get 12

5 412 - 3 5 ======

Is the usual way of writing this.

Now subtract 5 from 12 to get 7. This is another 'pair' that needs to be taught - all the numbers up to 10 subtracted from all larger numbers up to 20 are 'required', or it is possible to say that 12-2 is 10 and that 5-2 is 3 and 10-3 is 7, which is how I do it, but is not necesseraly the 'easiest' way. Different children will want to do this in different ways and will often develop their own methods for mental subtraction (ie when you don't write it down). For instance I do this: 56-38 becomes 50-40+6+2 : note that I have used both the fact that 56=50+6 and that 38=40-2 (this is why I personally feel that every child needs to know the pairs that sum to 10) and that a+b-(c-d) = a-c+b+d allthough you can 'see' this as the 'big chunk' from 40 to 50 and then the two small end bits added on (6 and 2) without expaining using algebra, again teachers should remember this general truth (that addition can be re-ordered and that minus minus = plus) in order to answer questions and with a view to the child learning it in this form.

To continue:

5 412 - 3 5 ======    7

Then we take 30 from 40 (remember that it is now 40 since we gave the other 10 to the units) to get 10

5 412 - 3 5 ======    7    10

And finally add these two together

5 412 - 3 5 ======    7    10 ======    17

To give the answer.

An alternate method of subtraction is to perform subtraction starting on the left and heading to the right. This second method was used by some young children, which shows that young children can understand negative numbers if told about them:

The same sum:

52 -35 ====

This time we will take 30 from 50 first (working left to right here - much more 'obvious') to get 20

52 -35 ==== 20

Then we will take 5 from 2 to get -3

52 -35 ==== 20   -3

Then we take the 3 from the 20

52 -35 ==== 20   -3 ====  17

To finish the sum. Here students need to know what 20-3 is: This is easiest to look at as 10+10-3 and then know that 10-3 is 7 (again, numbers adding to 10).

title: Primary Mathematics/Subtracting numbers