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Talk:Kinmen/Archive 1

Page move
This page should be moved from Quemoy to Kinmen (81600 vs 220,000 on google). Quemoy is an outdated name for Kinmen. Kinmen is now used by the government, in tourist brochures, and elsewhere. --Jiang 05:41, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. I'm getting slightly different numbers from Google – 303,000 for "Kinmen" vs. 105,000 for "Quemoy" (and 41,100 for "Jinmen") – but the qualitative conclusion is the same. --MarkSweep ✍ 12:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I subtracted "wikipedia" so our own articles would not skew the count --Jiang 16:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I search for English pages only.. it gives 69 300 hits for Quemoy, 72 200 for Kinmen, 33 200 for Jinmen, 5 590 for Chinmen, and 3 910 for Chin-men. "Quemoy -Wikipedia -Kinmen" gives 72 000, whereas "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy" gives 68 700. I'd prefer to keep it as it is, since the difference is not that large. — Instantnood 10:32, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

I really don't see a reason for *not* moving here. Exclusing non-English sites means exclusing Taiwan-based websites. The government uses Kinmen. --Jiang 21:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "Quemoy -Wikipedia -Kinmen site:gov.tw", English pages only, gives 18 hits. The same search in all languages gives 119 hits, most are European languages other than English. "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy site:gov.tw" in all languages gives 25 000 hits, many are Chinese ones (15 800).
 * "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy site:gov.tw", English pages only, gives 6 110 hits. By comparing 18 and 6 110, with 72 000 and 68 700 above, we can see the figures of English-language pages all over the Internet in popular usage, and by the government itself. — Instantnood 06:41, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * More interestingly, "Quemoy -Wikipedia -Kinmen site:tw", English only, gives 125, and "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy site:tw" gives 24 900. Compare this with 72 000 and 68 700, we can see the difference of choice between pages under the .tw country domain and those outside of the country domain. — Instantnood 06:48, September 11, 2005 (UTC) (modified 12:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC))

Well, on my personal website I use Hanyu pinyin exclusively -- smarter that whatever nutcase in the presidential palace says. Jidanni 05:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Should the page be now renamed to Chinmen or Jinmen, to reflect the correct pronunciation of the city's name? --Atitarev (talk) 04:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Page move unwarranted. Kinmen is the official name. There are a variety of Romanizations. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not so much about the romanisation but also endonym vs exonym. Happy to use the Wade-Giles if there is a general agreement. "Kinmen" is based on the Taiwanese dialect pronunciation, Jinmen/Chinmen on the standard Mandarin pronunciation. The latter is now used in encyclopedias (Britannica) and official maps. "Jinmen" (tonyong pinyin and hanyu pinyin) and "Chinmen" (Wade-Giles) are the 2 different romanisations of the same pronunciation. Mandarin is much more in use than Taiwanese in Taiwan. --Atitarev (talk) 05:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The official name is Kinmen; that makes it an endonym in my book... If EB uses Wade-Giles then again they are imposing the exonym... as for "Mandarin is much more in use than Taiwanese in Taiwan" well, where do you live? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 12:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * From Languages of Taiwan, a well-know fact:
 * A large majority of people on Taiwan speak Standard Mandarin, which has been the only officially sanctioned medium of instruction in the schools for more than four decades.

 * No, I don't live in Taiwan. I have no idea about you, you are not even signed in! :)
 * An endonym is a native name. The native formal name is 進門 Jīnmén (here the romanisation is just to show how it is pronounced formally in standard Mandarin). "Kinmen" is the current English exonym (name in the target language) based on the dialectal name Kim-mn̂g. --Atitarev (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to fire your Chinese teacher. It's 金門 not 進門. That would be "Golden gate" or "Golden door" to you. And since we can't name the article 金門, we should follow the current government usage. You are making things far more complicated than they should be. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 12:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It was an honest mistake, my fault, not my teacher's. ;) I know the characters for Kinmen/Jinmen but when I typed accidentally selected wrong characters. No over-complication, I prefer Qingdao over Tsindao, Livorno over Leghorn. --Atitarev (talk) 15:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

There is now not even a mention of Quemoy on this page, but there is still a redirect. Surely it deserves at least a mention on the page? Fmph (talk) 08:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Japanese occupation
Were Quemoy, Matsu and other ROC's islands on the coast of PRC's Fujian Province, occupied by Japan during the Second World War? — Instantnood 20:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Quemoy and Matsu were occupied from 1937 onwards. -- ran (talk) 07:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

so? japan also occupied a large amount of China, kinmen is a part of china occupied

history
Kinmen, until the late 80's/early 90's, had a very heavy military presence. the island was essentially a fortress and owned by the ROC army, which allocated six divisions to the Kinmen defense command. due to its close proximity to mainland (on a good day one can easily swim across), controlling the island was very important to the ROC government, psychologically and militarily. Mct mht (talk) 23:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Map
I don't know whether the map is highlighted correctly. There are three pink/red squares, but only one of them is definitely part of Kinmen. I know that Kinmen has 12 islands (actually 15, I think, but three are administered by the PTC), but i don't think any of them aare as far north as the northernmost of the red squares. Any takers on this question? If no one can *prove* the squares are accurately placed, I'll alter the image accordingly. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 14:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose you're right. I've changed the map into a better one, I think.Guss2 (talk) 13:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move: Kinmen → Quemoy

The result of the move request was: moved. While the trend certainly looks like "Kinmen" will surpass "Quemoy" in common usage sometime in the near future, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The finding that "Quemoy" is more common is surprising to me, personally, because I lived in Taiwan for a number of years, where the usage is overwhelmingly "Kinmen". However, this seems not to be true yet on a worldwide basis. Once it IS true, the article should reside at "Kinmen". Until such time, however, common usage dictates "Quemoy". Aervanath (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Kinmen → Quemoy – One might well ask why a tiny island in the Taiwan Strait has an English-language common name. The reason for this is that the phrase "Quemoy and Matsu" was extremely prominent in the 1960 U.S. presidential election. (There were so few policy differences between Kennedy and Nixon that only subject they could debate was these two islands, or at least that was the joke.) This ngram shows both the spike in usage associated with the election, as well as the fact that "Quemoy" was and remains the WP:COMMONNAME for this island. ("Jinmen" is also on the graph as it is the pinyin spelling, but I should add that this term has various other meanings.) "Quemoy" is certainly the more familiar term in the United States, according to Google Insights. Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary, recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style as the source on these matters, gives the name as "Quemoy." Britannica gives the name as "Quemoy Island". See also China Post and The Guardian. Kauffner (talk) 01:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a note about the China Post citation. Using the paper's own search, since 1 Jan 2000, "Kinmen" has appeared 223 times while "Quemoy" has been only used 6 times.

 * As noted in a previous discussion above, "Quemoy is an outdated name for Kinmen. Kinmen is now used by the government, in tourist brochures, and elsewhere". I would add that Quemoy is still used in sources referring to the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis but it rarely used for contemporary topics.  This no doubt accounts for "Quemoy" being still common in books (as opposed to news sources or journals) and being used outside of Taiwan.  In common English usage in the context of contemporary Taiwan, "Kinmen" is almost exclusively used.  Also note the usage in the WTO name for Taiwan, the "Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu".  —  AjaxSmack   03:33, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * presumed oppose? --Jiang (talk) 02:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I suppose so. —  AjaxSmack   05:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Strongly support. Quemoy is still the more common name by a factor of about three. More people are likely to look up this article to find out about its only appearance in English-speaking historiography. We are not a tour guide; we do not follow them; as WP:NCGN explains: When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say; Munich and Nuremberg are still the English names. Similarly, a town's own website may well attest to an official name, even when this differs from local usage and widespread English usage. In this case, tour guides use the name on ferry schedules, but the principle is the same. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please do a search spanning the years 2008-2001, instead of 1800-2008. The results would be dramatically different.--Jiang (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A similar case is Penghu and its historical variant, the Pescadores. The Google Ngram which seems to be the rage these days still shows "Pescadores" as more common but its usage is highly deprecated in contemporary usage (e.g. Penghu County, the "Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu").  A little like Volgograd/Stalingrad or Gdańsk/Danzig.  —  AjaxSmack   06:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Comment The BBC, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal are all using Kinmen, while The Washington Post uses Quemoy. (Search for the other names at the links to see that they are less prevalent).--Wikimedes (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 07:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC).
 * Oppose. Kinmen is now the common name and Quemoy is gradually falling out of favor. Since this is matter of romanization, we use what is presently favored, not what was favored 40 years ago. (compare Peking, Canton, Amoy, etc.) --Jiang (talk) 08:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you look at this ngram or Insights? From the bar graph it looks like Americans are Googling for "Quemoy" four or five times more often than "Kinmen", even today. The 1960 election had the first televised presidential debates and they made a big impression. This explains how the name of this island became a household word. Kauffner (talk) 09:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * First, this is not an American topic, so the name should be what is most prevalent worldwide, rather than what is most prevalent among Americans. Second, the search should be conducted to bias the most recent sources. Once 2005-present is used as a date range, Kinmen becomes more prevalent as a search term than Quemoy: . This Wikipedia article was originally placed at Quemoy and moved to Kinmen in the middle of the decade.--Jiang (talk) 10:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is only in Taiwan that anyone Googles for "Kinmen". Unless Taiwanese English counts an WP:ENGVAR I would suggest going with Merriam Webster, which the Chicago Manual of Style recognizes as the authority on these matters. Kauffner (talk) 16:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not true. See links to the BBC, The New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal above, as well as the designation used in the WTO. We are not the Chicago Manual of Style and do not use a dictionary to determine common names.--Jiang (talk) 02:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Support. The only advantage Kinmen would have over the common name Quemoy would be if it were a systematic romanization of Standard Chinese, but since Jinmen has that distinction, Quemoy is more suitable as a name that native English speakers would recognize. Quigley (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see the evidence here that Quemoy is clearly more common than Kinmen. The searches done above are systemically flawed. We take the common name as it is now, not what the common name was over the past century. Otherwise, People's Republic of China should not have been moved to China but to Communist China since that was the prevalent term in English for a good chunk of the 20th century.--Jiang (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Quemoy vs. Kinmen
The subject of the opening sentence should correspond with the title, according to WP:LEAD. Merriam-Webster gives "Quemoy" with "Jinmen" the only variant. Britannica says, " Quemoy  Chinese (Wade-Giles)  Chin-men Tao  or  (Pinyin)  Jinmen Dao,  also called  Kinmen". So "Kinmen" is presented as a No. 4 also ran possibility. In short, I think we can make it "Quemoy" throughout the article. Kauffner (talk) 06:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Please authoritative source, rename to Kinmen

 * Information about foreign geographic feature names can be obtained from the GEOnet Names Server (GNS), developed and maintained by the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA). The GNS database is the official repository of foreign place-name decisions approved by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names.
 * http://geonames.nga.mil/ggmagaz/
 * That is a genuinely authoritative source. Google is fine for collecting and (very relevantly, to the above discussion) counting freshman term papers about events that happened in the 1950s, and Merriam Webster is fine for conventional names (see below), but authoritative they are not.
 * The BGN Approved local official name is Jinmen Dao. That's spelled J-I-N-M-E-N. Quemoy is listed as a "conventional name", which is further defined as "A commonly-used English name approved by the U.S. Board on geographic names (BGN) in addition to, or in lieu of, [my emphasis] a BGN-approved local official name or names."
 * Note that "Dao" means simply "island".
 * Note that the island's government calls itself Kinmen. Kinmen county government
 * Note that none of the above use "Quemoy"
 * Gee, if it were me, I'd let them name themselves first (go with "Kinmen"). If I couldn't bear to give them permission to name themselves, I'd go with the BGN (Jinmen). By no means would I let Google sit at the same table in terms of authoritativeness.
 * –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * A genuinely authoritative source.....like the Kinmen County Website? The BGN approves "Xianggang" for Hong Kong, "Thành Phố Hồ Chí Minh" for Saigon, "Athína" for Athens, and "Warszawa" for Warsaw. I don't know who they are approving names for, but obviously not for use by English-speaking humans. Kauffner (talk) 16:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The Kinmen County website is indeed authoritative, since it is their name. They are in turn following the Romanization that the government of Taiwan uses. Is the government of Taiwan not an authoritative source on the Romanization of their own place name? I find it difficult to imagine that you are defending Google and Merriam Webster as superior sources. [Searching the websites of the ROC is instructive, as forex in that the uses of Quemoy are on non-English pages, while English language pages give it is "Kinmen"... here's one source that is indicative: http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/yearbook/01Geography.pdf ]. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 23:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You've gone from proposing the PRC spelling to insisting on the authority of the Taiwanese government, which is certainly quite a trip. But, sure, the ROC Yearbook is an authoritative source. So are Merriam-Webster, Britannica, and BGN's conventional names. Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary is the source recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style. Readers in the U.S. are looking for "Quemoy" far more often than they are for "Kinmen" or "Jinmen". BTW, Quemoy became a household word because of its use as a hypothetical in the Kennedy/Nixon debates. So its fame is only indirectly a result of the Taiwan Straits crisis. Kauffner (talk) 03:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Your logic is backwards and even destructive. You say that more people are searching for "Quemoy". However, renaming it in that way disseminates incorrect information even farther. Should we go back to calling Beijing "Peking", then? Meanwhile, I have not made any sort of a "trip" at all. I have not moved or changed in any way. I continue to state that I think the Republic of China should have first say on the Romanization of its own territory (i.e., "Kinmen"). [Redirects can be very educational] If you are unwilling to let the democratic government there speak for itself, I suggest that the BGN's "Jinmen" is a poor second choice. Quemoy is not even an option. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 04:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Quemoy --> Kinmen

The result of the move request was: Moved to Kinmen, essentially this discussion developed sufficient local consensus to overturn move made in Dec 2011. Mike Cline (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Quemoy → Kinmen –
 * Summary of what I have said above, but with new points:
 * At Talk:Quemoy a recent poll moved the article from "Kinmen" to "Quemoy". The poll derived consensus based on the !votes of two (and only two) editors. The initial arguments were based on Google hits, one (cherry picked, see below) Taiwanese newspaper, and Merriam Webster dictionary. A later argument referenced Wikipedia page views as a deciding factor as well. The deciding admin said that Quemoy is "more popular" than Kinmen.

 * 1) This claim about raw count equaling "popularity" is deeply flawed for three reasons:
 * 2) First, Google is an inappropriate tool in this case, for two reasons:
 * 3) As I said on Talk:Quemoy, "Google is fine for collecting and (very relevantly, to this discussion) counting freshman term papers about events that happened in the 1950]]s (here meaning the First Taiwan Strait Crisis and " (during those events, "Quemoy" was definitely the preferred Romanization, but that has changed). Google ghits overcount usage due to its inclusion of historical accounts that use an outdated name, weakening the claim that ghits should determine "popularity" and in turn "current usage".
 * 4) "Quemoy" does seem to be the standard spelling in some other languages that use Roman letters (e.g. Spanish, etc.)... but we are the English Wikipedia. Ghits overcount for this reason as well.
 * 5) In terms of raw count, old usage outweighs new usage for quite some time. For example, if we had had Google at the time when we switched from "Peking" to "Beijing", then "Peking" would outweigh "Beijing" by a huge factor.
 * 6) I just reject the reasoning outright, to be honest. I think that if the Republic of China uses the "Kinmen" spelling as its first choice on all of its official documents, that trumps popularity even if "Quemoy" is more popular (and I dispute the assertion that it is more popular). Even more to the point, I think this argument trumps all others: Taiwan's government documents use "Kinmen". Taiwan's Government Information Office uses "Kinmen" example. The Kinmen county government uses "Kinmen". Etc.
 * 7) As for  Merriam Webster dictionary and other sources, various sources give various usages. Did we cherry pick our sources? See forex comment above (copy/paste):"  The BBC, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal are all using Kinmen, while The Washington Post uses Quemoy." Did we cherry pick our sources in this argument?
 * 8) The argument that "Quemoy has more hits on Wikipedia" is even more deeply flawed.  Disseminating incorrect usage is a disservice to our readers. Redirects can be very educational.
 * There are other arguments. There is a reference to a Taiwanese newspaper, apparently using it to determine usage in Taiwan. But the English-language newspapers in Taiwan deliberately differ in their spelling/usage as much as possible, for political reasons. The argument links China Post, but Taipei Times and Taiwan News both use "Kinmen" exclusively [It seems the Wikipedian cherry-picked his newspaper links]. Moreover, the Kinmen newspaper (Kinmen Daily News) uses "Kinmen" example. Etc.   –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 08:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Support as nominator (see above) –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 07:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Support -- This is a question of the correct transliteration of a Chinese name. Since the islands are a possession of Taiwan, we should use the spelling preferred by that country, not one preferred by PRC or an archaic one.  What may be found in WP is a non-starter, because the present WP spelling is likely to result from that of this article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 12:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - The evidence provided on this page at best suggests that there is no reason to favor either Kinmen or Quemoy as article titles. Both are commonly used and separately prevalent in different contexts (i.e. historical vs. geographical). There is no good reason to bias books on 20th century history or American newspapers from the 1960s over present-day newspapers and travel guides (two likely places where out readers would come across this topic). Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but the article titles policy states to use "common sense" in favoring more recent usage when a name change of an entity or organization has occurred. By using Kinmen, we are not creating the "unverifiable speculation" as claimed above, since the increasing prevalence of the transliteration Kinmen over the transliteration Quemoy is well supported by the evidence and not mere speculation; instead we are merely favoring one of two equally viable alternatives. --Jiang (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I get 4,130 post-1990 English-language Google Book hits for Kinmen island, 8,100 for Quemoy island. The most authoritative source for the English-language spellings of geographical names is Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary, which gives "Quemoy". GeoNames also gives "Quemoy" as its "conventional" (meaning English-language) spelling. At least in the U.S., far more readers are looking for "Quemoy" than for "Kinmen", according to Google Insights. The trend all over the world is to rename minor geography according to local convention. But Quemoy is in a different category because this name became quite familiar to the American public as a result of the Nixon/Kennedy debates in 1960. Kauffner (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * First, no one calls it "Kinmen island" or "Quemoy island". Any such phrasing should be purged from this site. Kinmen/Quemoy refers to multiple islands. Second, this is cherry picking. Where in policy does it say that for geographical names the specific and limited sources are more authoritative than newspapers and travel guides? --Jiang (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not search for the phrase "Kinmen island", but for Kinmen AND island. If you prefer no screening, here is an ngram. As far as travel guides go, here is what WP:NCGN has to say: "When considering a source in determining English usage, remember the purpose of the source. When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say; Munich and Nuremberg are still the English names. Similarly, a town's own website may well attest to an official name, even when this differs from local usage and widespread English usage." Kauffner (talk) 05:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You haven't addressed why we should put give more weight to books written in the mid-20th century over widely circulated newspapers such as the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. It would be interesting to see when it was that these publications switched over from Quemoy to Kinmen. The guidebook note you cited is aimed at languages like German that use Roman characters and thus can be incorporated into English texts; Taiwan uses Chinese characters - anything in Roman characters is aimed to reflect English, not Chinese usage. see New Taipei as example of English language dominance in Taiwan. Whether Lonely Planet used Kinmen, Jinmen, Chin-men, or Quemoy would have exactly no practical effect on its efficacy as a guidebook as the locals do not use English as a working language.--Jiang (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Books in the 20th century? Kauffner's search was limited to post-1990 books. --Xiaopo (Talk) 03:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Support per AjaxSmack's reasoning above—Kinmen is used more commonly in a modern context. GotR Talk 19:44, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose. As Peterkingiron says, "this is a question of the correct transliteration of a Chinese name". However, he is mistaken that Kinmen is the correct transliteration. "Kinmen" is the Chinese Postal Map Romanization, ironically the same archaic system that produced "Pekin". What is the correct transliteration of 金門 then? It's "Jinmen", the second choice of Britannica behind Quemoy, a spelling both derived not from the Mandarin but from a truly native dialect, and one long known to English speakers through the Nixon-Kennedy debates. What else is Quemoy but the most common name used in books, atlases, and searches from English-speaking countries! Jinmen uses the standard system of transliterating Chinese, which was indeed invented by the PRC government but which is official in Taiwan also. Jinmen, not Kinmen, is the true second choice to Quemoy, if we wanted to "educate" or "be correct". As OneLeafKnowsAutumn says, some Taiwanese newspapers may purposefully use archaic unsystematic spellings (e.g. Kinmen) in order to protest the Taiwanese government's move to what was once exclusively a PRC transliteration system. However, Wikipedia should not play these petty political games. To sum up:
 * 1) Kinmen is not the well-established name known to English speakers: that is Quemoy.
 * 2) Kinmen is not a genuinely local name derived from islanders' spoken dialect: that is Quemoy.
 * Comment: Sorry for interrupting Shrigley's remarks, but you'll have a hard time establishing that without WP:OR. Do locals use the word "Quemoy" when speaking among themselves? [See my WP:OR below; Shrigley's remark is inaccurate].  As Jiang said, locals are nearly universally bilingual in Min Nan and Mandarin. Code-switching issues arise, as well as register, etc. It's a deep, dark hole you're going into there – even assuming we want to follow a transliteration of Min Nan pronunciation. But see below, this whole thing may be politicized along pro-union with China lines. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 03:43, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Kinmen is not what native English-speaking people write or search for: that is Quemoy.
 * 2) Kinmen is not the correct transliteration of the Chinese characters: that is Jinmen.
 * The name "Kinmen" is on its way to the garbage heap of history, and Wikipedia should not prolong its suffering. Shrigley (talk) 01:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am beginning to wonder whether this issue brings out politically polarized positions in the China-Taiwan spat. Do people from one side of the issue of unification with China prefer "Quemoy"? The differences in Taiwanese newspapers spellings make it an extremely strong possibility. In any event, we should follow the usage of the Republic of China, as do in fact many newspapers of record such as The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. Who are we to argue with the ROC, The NYT and the WSJ collectively? Mmmm, even the US Department of State prefers Kinmen –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "Kinmen" was used 7 times by the New York Times in the last 12 months, Quemoy once. WSJ has 6 mentions of "Kinmen" in the last two years, 2 for Quemoy. Why base a decision on such a tenuous database when we can use book result numbers that are far more firmly established? Kauffner (talk) 07:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The mentions in widely circulated newspapers, as opposed to books published in the 1960s, reflects current usage. You would be more convincing by comparing the 12 mentions in the NYT with 12 books published in 2011, not a range of books published from the year 1950. Your set of data would justify moving Beijing to Peking and Mao Zedong to Mao Tse-tung. If you can limit your search to the years 2006-2011, then we're talking! If this were still 2002 instead of 2012 then perhaps I would be supporting Quemoy instead of Kinmen. Looking at publications published before the recent decade is misleading.--Jiang (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There were are a lot more than 12 books published in 2011 that mentioned "Quemoy". To be exact, there were 449 76 (deghosted) such books. Of course, we must considered ourselves fortunate that nothing newsworthy has happened on the island in recent years. Kauffner (talk) 01:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You keep throwing out numbers, but you aren't actually looking at the books you've linked as support for your position. The overwhelming majority of them are explicitly discussing the Taiwan Straits Crises of the 1950s (as I have said again and again), when Kinmen was indeed known as Quemoy. The one or two little exceptions that I saw are looking far, far, far from being authoritative, high quality sources. Please don't make me list and examine every single one of those sources. Please. I beg you. Please look at them closely yourself, and admit that what I've said is true. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 08:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Here lies the systemic bias of your analysis. Every single one of the mentions of "Quemoy" on google books refer to events in the 1950s and 1960s. Isn't the opening of the three links quite a newsworthy event? The Taiwan Strait crisis receives exactly two sentences worth of coverage in this article. See my comment above: we should be using Kinmen vs. Quemoy in different contexts, lest Wikipedia starts to sound like it was written in a 1960s time warp.--Jiang (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you have in fact found a solitary cite from a WP:RS that uses "Quemoy" and does so outside of the context of the Straits Crises of the 1950s, then I congratulate you. However, the weight of evidence that I have repeatedly cited (the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. speaks in favor of "Kinmen". –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 01:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Kinmen is not exactly a hot news item... the point is that when it is mentioned, it is "kinmen", unless the reference is a historical one regarding the Straits Crises of the 1950s... Speaking of which, did you look at those books you are citing as evidence for "Quemoy"? They're all discussions of the crisis... we could play dueling books – mine is by the World Trade Organization: [ http://www.amazon.com/Accession-Territory-Establishing-Organization-Instruments/dp/0521788919/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325336033&sr=1-7 Protocol on the Accession of the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu to the Marrakesh Agreement Establishing the World ...] (World Trade Organization Legal Instruments) –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 13:01, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

 * I believe that the entirety of your post [OneLeaf says: that post is now far above this spot, sorry for the interruptions], except for the citation to Britannica, is mistaken and false. First, Quemoy is the Chinese Postal Map Romanization for Kinmen based on Min-nan (Amoy dialect) in the same way Amoy is the Chinese Postal Map Romanization for Xiamen. Second, Kinmen is based on the Wade-Giles, rather than Amoy dialect, transliteration of the name, which is what is used for county-level divisions in Taiwan. While Taiwan has adopted Hanyu Pinyin for most sub-county level political divisions, it retains the former spellings in county-level and higher divisions such as Taipei. See also: Hsinchu County and Hualien County. There is basically no justification for using pinyin here. Third, Kinmen is well-established and known to English speakers: Lonely Planet This is not a claim that Quemoy is not established, but I find it hard to believe in light of the evidence given that Kinmen is not well-established as a name. Anyone who searches this name outside the realm of Cold War history, which is not the focus of this article, will be likely looking for Kinmen, not Quemoy. Fourth, the notion that we must use "genuinely local name derived from islanders' spoken dialect" or that pinyin is "the correct transliteration of the Chinese characters" is hogwash. The locals are bilingual in Amoy dialect and Mandarin. By local dialect, we would have to move Xiamen to Amoy. Wikipedia naming conventions only favor pinyin when it is more common - there is no rule overriding common names when it comes to choice of romanization. Although I believe pinyin is a superior romanization system, this is not our call to make.--Jiang (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: This doesn't resolve the article naming issue, but perhaps we should use either name in different context so usage on Wikipedia conforms to usage in the real world - Kinmen when speaking of geography (e.g. ferries between Xiamen and Kinmen), and Quemoy when speaking of the Cold War. Otherwise, to use Quemoy in every instance would be anachronistic: anyone who says "I am taking the ferry from Xiamen to Quemoy" will be sounding awfully archaic. They were be more consistent and equally archaic if they said "I am taking the ferry from Amoy to Quemoy."--Jiang (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Not that it matters how the subject is given in an obsolete system, but the Wade-Giles spelling for this locality is Chin-men. Of course, the county remains "Kinmen County" regardless of what the island might be called. It's nice to know the nomenclature in Taiwanese English. I don't see that as decisive. Kauffner (talk) 05:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * While we're at it, I must confess: I indulged in WP:OR. I contacted a true local Kinmen-ren (not a transplant from Taiwan). He told me that  no one says "Quemoy", not even when Kinmnen-ren are speaking among themselves in the local Min Nan. The "K" is not Wade-Giles, it's Min Nan! [By coincidence, it is the same as wade Giles]. Kinmen-ren say "Kinmon" (with an initial voiceless velar plosive /k/) and a slight variation in the second vowel sound); Mandarin speakers say "Jinmen". All of this is WP:OR, but it may enlighten the conversation a bit. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If the islanders are using the Mandarin form, they are saying Jinmen (or possibly Chinmen, if you are a Wade-Giles man). If they are using the Minnan dialect, they might be saying "Quemoy." But as they are not speaking Taiwanese English with each other, there is no basis to claim that they are saying, "Kinmen." Kauffner (talk) 13:33, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know this is gonna sound impolite and I do sincerely apologize, but really, you are way off whatever is your turf when you begin arguing linguistics. What you said about Min Nan is simply wrong. You should kinda stick to safer ground. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 13:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It has no relevance to the common, English name of the island but Kinmen is probably not from Minnan. Rather, it's a Chinese Postal Map Romanization name (note in that article: "Chi, ch'i, and hsi (pinyin ji, qi, and xi) are represented as either tsi, tsi, and si or ki, ki, and hi depending on historic pronunciation.".  Hence, Wade-Giles Chin-men → Kinmen.)  The Minnan would be Kim-mng.  —  AjaxSmack   02:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I stand corrected - Kinmen is not Wade-Giles. But as the closing admin in the previous move discussion stated, Kinmen is overtaking Quemoy as the prevalent usage. I find it hard to fathom Quigley's statement that between Kinmen and Quemoy, Kinmen is obsolete. The opposite is true.--Jiang (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Taiwan officially adopted pinyin in 2009. So I think it is just a matter of time before this island is renamed "Jinmen." Jinmen is already almost as common as "Kinmen." Kauffner (talk) 13:33, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is true, and nor is Wikipedia a crystal ball. The decision has to keep prevalent non-pinyin names four county level divisions. New Taipei was formed in 2010 and the specifically decided not to avoid pinyin.--Jiang (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a crystal ball rationale that is really wishful thinking of pinyin supporters. The first-level units (e.g., Taichung, Kaohsiung, Kinmen) aren't going to be changed.  —  AjaxSmack   02:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Another thing WP:NCGN says is that the GEOnet server normally presents local official usage in the country concerned (for example, Frankfurt am Main); in a handful of cases, like Florence, it has a conventional name field. Its BGN Approved is a systematic transliteration, as Moskva — Wikipedia prefers Moscow, which is also the BGN conventional name. Where it acknowledges a conventional name, it is evidence of widespread English usage; where it does not, it is not addressing our primary question.
 * We are not primarily intended for the inhabitants of Quemoy, even in this article. Nor are we intended to take a position on the contending governments and transliteration systems of China. We are intended to communicate with an English-speaking audience, all over the world. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please note: Kinmen has become the conventional name. Another editor (above) keeps scaring up "Quemoy" in English-language books and papers etc., but he never actually looks at the texts he is linking: they all refer to events in the 1950s. [Google hits are illegitimate for this reason, and for the reason that "Quemoy" at least seems to be in use in other languages, such as Spanish.] The English-language texts that refer to the place as it currently exists all refer to it as "Kinmen", often with "Quemoy" mentioned parenthetically. That's the truth according to the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. So yes, "we are intended to communicate with an English-speaking audience, all over the world", which is precisely why Kinmen is the preferred route. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 00:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Tell us about your "true local Kinmen-ren" friend again. That argument was way more amusing. Maybe a picture would help? Kauffner (talk) 02:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Alas, having been severely outgunned by the impeccable, sterling reliable sources I have produced, and thus having no objective resources left to continue your argument with, you have been reduced to attempting to belittle me. I am not lying at all when I say that I hope your remarks are not in response to my suggestion that you reconsider arguing linguistics. I apologized before I said that, but again alas, it was simply the honest truth. Argue against the the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. But if you start trying to push my buttons, it won't work. –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 06:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Support, as I agree this is the conventional name. Rennell435 (talk) 06:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The "conventional name" terminology is from GeoNames, and they have designated "Quemoy" as the conventional name of this subject. Kauffner (talk) 09:33, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the Approved (or systematic) name is Jinmen Dao. We have reservations, quoted above, about the "approved" name; but we should use one or the other, unless there is an extremely strong case for the variant. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That is but one source. The weight of evidence that I have repeatedly cited (the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. speaks in favor of "Kinmen". –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 01:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Why would we follow what Geonames thinks? There are many other sources as One Leaf has said. Rennell435 (talk) 08:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Comment. If you can take the top three or four authorities on a given subject and each and every one of them says the same thing, it should be case closed. So let me do it one more time: Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary, GeoNames, Columbia Encyclopedia, Britannica, and Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names all give "Quemoy" as their preferred spelling. [ http://www.amazon.com/dp/081293265X/ref=rdr_ext_tmb The Times Atlas of the World] gives "Chinmen". (This book was published in 1999 and uses Wade-Giles for Taiwanese place names.) Only Britannica gives "Kinmen" at all -- and as a fourth choice. "Jinmen" is better supported than "Kinmen." GeoNames implies that this is now the form approved by the Taiwanese government. Kauffner (talk) 02:14, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: A more pertinent question might be, why do sources as authoritative and diverse as the NYT, WSJ, US Dept. of State, World Trade Organization and Library of Congress – Federal Research Division all agree that your sources should be completely ignored...? –One Leaf KnowsAutumn (talk) 04:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per my reasoning in the previous move request: "As noted in a previous discussion above, 'Quemoy is an outdated name for Kinmen. Kinmen is now used by the government, in tourist brochures, and elsewhere'. I would add that Quemoy is still used in sources referring to the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis but it rarely used for contemporary topics.  This no doubt accounts for 'Quemoy' being still common in books (as opposed to news sources or journals) and being used outside of Taiwan.  In common English usage in the context of contemporary Taiwan, 'Kinmen' is almost exclusively used.  Also note the usage in the WTO name for Taiwan, the 'Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu'."  I would add that the situation is a little like that of Stalingrad.  No doubt many people search Wikipedia for "Stalingrad" and many contemporary sources use that name in its historical context but we still title the city Volgograd because that's its name today.  The same is true with Kinmen.  In the historical context of the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis, it was Quemoy.  Though the island doesn't receive much press in English these days, it's Kinmen when it does.  (As an aside, an anecdotal bit of original research:  People from the island usually say "I'm from Kinmen" in English.)  —  AjaxSmack   02:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Categories and template
Fujian very clearly states that Kinmen is under ROC control, while "Fujian" in Category:County-level divisions of Fujian is NOT limited to PRC-controlled Fujian. There is no reason (other than to push an expansionist Taiwanisation of the Fujian islands like some here have been doing) to not include either. GotR Talk 16:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Taiwanese nationalism is a significant view, but I'm not sure what the general Taiwanese nationalist view on Kinmen is. Unless someone can demonstrate that they consider it part of Taiwan, I don't see any reason not to include Kinmen related categories as as a subcategory of Fujian related information. I think this is different from the Taiwan/China issue in that Kinmen really has been historically closely associated with Fujian and the people still, according to Wikipedia and it's sources, see themselves as Fujianese/Chinese. Readin (talk) 00:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

IP setting up archive
Just a note (to myself before I forget for good as much as anyone) this this is one of the pages affected by Ho Chi Minh IP cluster setting up Miszabot archiving of previous RMs. Editors should consider this when previous RM is archived and new RM appears. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kaohsiung which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 29 August 2015

The result of the move request was: CLOSE community-banned user. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Kinmen → Jinmen – Jinmen is the pinyin spelling of this name, and WP:PINYIN tells us that pinyin is our default Romanization. "Jinmen" is at least as common in the RS as "Kinmen," according to this ngram. Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary gives "Quemoy or Chin. Jinmen" (that is to say, no "Kinmen") "For spelling of place names, a good reference is Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary." according to WP:WIAN. The Columbia Gazetteer of the World, an authoritative library reference work, gives "Jinmen." ConstitutionalRepublic (talk) 03:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Please note previous move discussions in the Archives here. —  AjaxSmack  16:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Use Quemoy -- <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 06:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Stay with Kinmen as Lonely Planet etc. Do not use old colonial name Quemoy as per Archive move discussions. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:24, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:PINYIN (use "pinyin as the default..., except where a non-pinyin form of a word is used by modern reliable secondary sources.") [my emphasis] Note that the names of the  counties of Taiwan use the postal form and not pinyin.  (The sources given in the nomination to support "Jinmen" also use the very uncommon "Chi-lung" instead of Keelung) Also note my reasoning and evidence in previous move requests: In common English usage in the context of contemporary Taiwan, "Kinmen" is almost exclusively used.  Also note the usage in Kinmen National Park and the WTO name for Taiwan, the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu.  As far as <IP_ADDRESS>'s comment goes, "Quemoy" is still used in sources referring to the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis, but it is rarely used for contemporary topics (cf. Stalingrad vs. Volgograd).  —  AjaxSmack   16:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If this theory was true, wouldn’t you expect to see an author use a different name depending on which historical period he was discussing? That never happens. It would be like saying that the capital of China was once in Peking, but that it is now in Beijing. It makes no sense to grant a common name exception for Kinmen, but not for Quemoy, which is a far more common usage. According to Geonames, the “approved” (local official) usage for the island is Jinmen Dao. The county is given as Jinmen while Keelung is Jilong. In other words, pinyin is official pretty much across the board at this point. We should not assume that the Taiwanese are making some sort of political statement when they use a non-standard Romanization. They are usually just screwing up. This page has some amusing examples. ConstitutionalRepublic (talk) 16:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The local official name is 金門 which we won't be using for a number of reasons. You are relying on a USA military source that does not use common English names for places.  A search reveals that Kinmen is a "Conventional" name while Jinmen is "Approved".  Compare this with let's say Florence (Conventional) and Firenze (Approved) or Hong Kong (Conventional) and Heung Kong (Approved).  Are we really supposed to have an article called Heung Kong based on this source?  Please take a trip to Kinmen if you get a chance.  It's a nice place.  Notice all of the English signs that use "Kinmen" (and many Engrish ones, too).  If you prefer more official usage, try both local and national government sources from Taiwan, the folks who are actually in charge in Kinmen.  I agree that it is poor policy for Taiwan to have such exception to its pinyin policy for county names like Hsinchu and other places like Lukang but it's not my decision to make. —  AjaxSmack   02:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't mention Geonames in the proposal, you know. My argument is that "Jinmen" and "Kinmen" are about equally common on Gbooks, and that our guideline recommends defaulting to pinyin. Geonames gets its data from BGN, which is a civilian U.S. agency. BGN standardizes geographic naming across the U.S. government, not just for the military. It is the main supplier of data to the makers of atlases, gazetteers, and other geographic references. See here.
 * The World Factbook gives this subject as "Quemoy," as does Columbia Encyclopedia and EB. I uploaded a scan from Columbia Gazeteer, which uses "Jinmen": Jinmen, Columbia.JPG All of these references are recommended in WP:WIAN. I'm fine with either "Quemoy" or "Jinmen." The name was Quemoy, and it is in process changing to Jinmen. Kinmen it never was, or is going to be. ConstitutionalRepublic (talk) 02:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose, it might be simpler if Taiwan used pinyin place names exclusively but this is not the actual practice, otherwise we would have Gaoxiong instead of Kaohsiung, etc. AjaxSmack has already cited WP:PINYIN. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 17:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Close User:Jenks24 User:AjaxSmack this a Kauffner sock, no need to relist. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Am I missing something? The account doesn't appear to be blocked or at SPI? Jenks24 (talk) 18:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been archived Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner/Archive In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic photo article
I found a photo article that may be of use: WhisperToMe (talk) 03:48, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Taylor, Alan. "Taiwan's Kinmen Islands, Only a Few Miles From Mainland China." The Atlantic. October 8, 2015.

Archipelago?
I think it's a bit disingenuous to call Kinmen an "archipelago," since even in the in this article, there are clearly other islands in this group that are not part of "Kinmen." The term "archipelago" would refer to all of these islands, not just the ones that have been designated as "Kinmen County." I am changing "archipelago" to "group of islands," but I'm open to other possibilities. Phlar (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

 * I think you are reading more into the definition of archipelago than really exists in normal use of the word. An archipelago is a group of islands - any group. There is no definition to define the grouping. There are many island groups in the world that are described as archipelagos but where the islands cross political borders. For example, Indonesia is often described as an archipelago even though the Indonesian government doesn't control all the islands clustered between Australia and Asia. Kinmen is a group of islands and thus the term archipelago correctly describes it. There may be other islands nearby that could allow some other grouping to be also described as an archipelago, but the two descriptions are not exclusive of each other nor does the use of one definition imply the other. Rincewind42 (talk) 02:29, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

 * To me, calling Kinmen County an "archipelago" implies that the county encompasses some sort of "complete" grouping of islands. But Kinmen County is just a political designation; only the islands under the control of the ROC are part of this county, and other nearby islands that aren't under control of the ROC are not part of this county. But I think any geologist or geographer would consider them all---ROC controlled and otherwise---to be part of the same archipelago. The passage in question currently reads, "...Kinmen County (Chinese: 金門縣; pinyin: Jīnmén Xiàn), is a group of islands, governed by Taiwan, which is located just off...." In my view, "group of islands" is unambiguous, but "archipelago" would misleadingly imply that Kinmen County is a discrete group of islands. Phlar (talk) 03:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Separate article for Jinmen?
User would reckon that Jinmen PRC should have its own page. As the two names refer to the same current physical place I have reverted to using a redirect from that name (Jinmen) to this article. Does anyone have a further perspective on this issue? Batternut (talk) 09:47, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps a separate article on the history of the ownership dispute might be the answer? Batternut (talk) 10:43, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150119204530/http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20141120000090&cid=1101 to http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20141120000090&cid=1101

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climate?
I was curious to know the seasonality/climate of the weather/temperature/rainfall etc. in/on Kinmen, but there is no section here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 18:24, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Non-native Namings
It is WP:UNDUE "prominence of placement" to add foreign language content not cited to native-native communication between the residents of the area. Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:46, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Recent changes
I recently made various edits to the article which I will justify in this post.
 * A paragraph on the pinyin name, "Jinmen," was added. On GBooks, Jinmen is used far more than "Chin-men," a Wade-Giles spelling which was given more coverage in the article prior to my recent edits. As the island's Cold War prominence faded in the 1980s and 1990s, usage for Kinmen declined, but not nearly as much as usage for Quemoy. Check out this ngram.
 * Since I have been accused of being a pinyin supporter, I should note that my preferred spelling of the island's name is "Quemoy." This is the spelling used by published dictionaries and encyclopedias. It would be the article's title if we followed our own naming guidelines.

 * My removal of this reference was questioned. The Ministry of the Interior doesn't make "the rules," so I don't understand the objection. The reference is a Chinese-language PDF that was removed from the MOI site years ago. IMO, this source, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, is superior. This is just about neater sourcing since the various branches of the Taiwanese government provide consistent information.
 * I have to wonder why the 1958 bombardment and the island’s Cold War status were removed from the lead. These issues are surely more relevant than the names of the outlying island and the status of the disbanded Fujian Province.
 * I have restored the discussion of travel restrictions to the lead.
 * I have asked around to try to determine why so many Wikipedia editors add the phrase "Republic of China" to article text. It might look like an infiltration by the KMT. But as near as I can tell, it's not really a political statement. These editors argue the ROC is "official" because the Taiwanese government occasionally uses it. Of course, the government uses "Taiwan" as well. Asking how the government would do it is not how editing is supposed to work. Copy editors should select a dictionary and appropriate reference works and follow the usage in those. In this case, relevant reference works almost invarably use “Taiwan.” Our guidelines recommend The Chicago Manual of Style, which in turn recommends The World Factbook for this purpose. "Taiwan" is also more practical since “People’s Republic of China” and “Republic of China” are confusingly similar names.
 * The reason the island is called Quemoy has nothing to do with the university. So this information doesn’t belong in the names section.
 * I’d have restored the information that Taiwan officially uses pinyin to the “Names” section. The way it was written, it sounded like postal romanization is still a thing. 5440orSleep (talk) 08:56, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * infiltration by the KMT is an immediately block-able offense. Caradhras Aiguo ( leave language ) 14:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Is there a guideline regarding KMT infiltration? It was just a joke. 5440orSleep (talk) 17:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * "The reason the island is called Quemoy has nothing to do with the university. So this information doesn’t belong in the names section." No, but it is an example of the usage of the term in a prominent context in the local area. Hence it is warranted for the name section; hence it is readded. Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Of all the many mentions of "Quemoy," why single out this one? It makes it sound like the term is making a comeback. Whether usage is increasing or not, the horserace tone is inappropriate. When I walked around the island, I didn't see even one sign that said "Quemoy." The islanders I talked to made a point of saying "Kinmen." I remember this because I thought it was odd that they would use this pseudo-English pronunciation instead of standard Chinese. Certainly usage for Quemoy has declined since the 1990s. 5440orSleep (talk) 05:50, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Greater Kinmen
Geonames gives eleven names for the island, but "Greater Kinmen" isn't one of them. MOFA doesn't mention Greater Kinmen either. Information that is this obscure doesn't belong in the opening paragraph. 5440orSleep (talk) 01:11, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for bringing this up. I have changed it to Kinmen Island based on GEOnet. The island has multiple names, but I think Kinmen Island is good enough for the readers to get a basic overview in the lead paragraph. Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:22, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Kinmen/Quemoy
Why is the article under 'Kinmen' rather than 'Quemoy'? I think most readers come to the article having heard the latter name (as in 'Quemoy and Matsu') and not the former.<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Even reading the current text, I get the impression that the title should be 'Quemoy.' Kdammers (talk) 03:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kinmen/Archive 1


text:
Cuban League

The Cuban League was one of the earliest and longest lasting professional baseball leagues outside the United States, operating in Cuba from 1878 to 1961. The schedule usually operated during the winter months, so the league was sometimes known as the "Cuban Winter League."

The league generally comprised 3 to 5 teams, and was centered in Havana, though it sometimes included teams from outlying cities such as Matanzas or Santa Clara. Despite its name, it was not the only professional league active in Cuba during that time, nor was it always the most popular; Peter C. Bjarkman argues that amateur play drew far more interest due to its reach outside the capital. However, the Cuban League did join Major League Baseball's National Association in 1947, becoming the first Latin American league to join the fold of "Organized Baseball".

The league became racially integrated in 1900, and during the first half of the 20th century the Cuban League was a premier venue for black and white players to meet. Many great African American players competed in Cuba alongside native black and white Cuban stars such as José Méndez, Cristóbal Torriente, Adolfo Luque, and Martín Dihigo. Following the 1959 Cuban Revolution, however, tensions rose with the new Communist government, and in March 1961 the government decreed the abolition of professional baseball.

Early history: 1878–1899
The first game in what became known as the Cuban League took place in Havana on December 29, 1878. Esteban Bellán, the first Latin American to play professionally in the United States, was captain (playing manager) of Habana while the opposing Almendares was captained by Carlos Zaldo. (Almendares was a suburb just outside old Havana.) Habana won the first game, 21-20. The only other team in the league was Matanzas. In that first season, only four games were scheduled for each team, with the season lasting through February. Habana won the first championship with a record of 4-0-1.

Early baseball in Cuba, as in the United States, was an amateur sport first organized by gentlemen's athletic clubs. Games were played on Sundays and were typically preceded by a picnic and followed by a dance. A unique feature of early Cuban baseball is that teams played with 10 players per side. The tenth player was a "right shortstop", playing halfway between the first and second bases.

By the mid-1880s, the best-known players were becoming celebrities and baseball began to become professional, as players jumped from team to team and Americans were sometimes brought in as reinforcements. The gradual development of professionalism that took place in Cuba during the 1880s and 1890s echoed the development of professionalism in the United States two decades earlier in the National Association of Base Ball Players, which ultimately led to the formation of the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players. In Cuba, however, the clubs that wished to remain amateur broke off from the Cuban League.

Baseball in Cuba became associated with Cuban identity and nationalism. González Echevarría notes, "Baseball was a sport played in defiance of Spanish authorities, who viewed this American invention as vaguely secessionist and dangerously violent because of the use of sticks. A ban was issued in 1869, just as the Ten Years' War was starting." Several of the sponsors of early baseball teams were also supporters of the revolutionary cause. A number of ballplayers fought against Spain in the Cuban War of Independence (1895–98), and at least three lost their lives: Emilio Sabourín, Juan Manuel Pastoriza, and Ricardo Cabaleiro.

During the 19th century the Cuban League remained a segregated, whites-only institution. However, black Cubans were developing their baseball skills playing for semi-professional and sugarmill teams. The Cuban War of Independence brought Cuban blacks and whites together in a common cause and created the pressures that ultimately brought integration.

The other great legacy of 19th century Cuban League baseball was the enduring rivalry between Habana and Almendares. This rivalry began before the formation of the Cuban League and survived after its end, lasting for nearly a century. Growing up in Havana (and, indeed, in much of Cuba) meant choosing between Habana and Almendares.

Highlights

 * On December 29, 1878, the Cuban League's first game took place in Havana; Habana beat Almendares 21-20.
 * On December 21, 1879, an American professional team, the "Hop Bitters", visited Cuba and easily beat a Cuban team. The team's players comprised the Worcester team that had played in the minor league National Association in 1879 and would play in the major National League in 1880–1882. This tour began a long tradition of post-season exhibition series between major leaguers and Cuban teams.
 * In 1881 the first Almendares Park opened. For several decades it served as the principal Havana home for Cuban League baseball.
 * On February 2, 1886, Carlos Maciá pitched a shutout for Almendares, the first in Cuban League history, beating Fe 16–0.
 * In 1887 Habana won its sixth consecutive pennant. In the nine years since the founding of the Cuban League, Habana had so far been the only winner. (There had been two years when the league did not play; in a third year, disputes led to the termination of the season with no official winner.)
 * In 1888 Fe became the first team other than Habana to win a championship. Antonio María García, known as El Inglés (the Englishman), wins the first of 4 batting championships, hitting .448 for Habana.
 * In 1889 Wenceslao Gálvez writes the first history of baseball in Cuba (and one of the first for any country), El base-ball en Cuba.
 * On May 17, 1890, the President of the league, Oscar Martínez Conill, was killed in a fire while serving in a volunteer fire-fighting brigade.
 * In 1891, Alfred Lawson led two American teams on tours of Cuba. The first team to tour, in January and February, featured a mix of major and minor leaguers. It beat Matanzas, Progreso, and Almendares, but lost to Habana, Fe, and an all-star team known as the All-Cubans. The second team, the "All Americans", came in December and comprised major-league players including young stars like Bill Dahlen and John McGraw. This team easily beat the Cubans in five straight games with scores of 17-0, 14-0, 11-4, 14-3, and 10-1. For the second tour, Cuban player Antonio María García was lent to the All Americans and led all hitters in the series, prompting an offer from McGraw to sign with the Baltimore Orioles; García turned down the offer because he was paid more in Cuba.
 * In 1894 Almendares finally won its first championship, led by the pitching of Juan Manuel Pastoriza.
 * In 1895–96 and 1896–97, baseball was not played due to the Cuban War of Independence. In 1897 Emilio Sabourín, who played for Habana in its inaugural season and went on to become its manager, died in a Spanish prison after being captured during the war. In 1897–98 the Spanish government allowed baseball to be played even though the revolution continued in the countryside; the season was ended early, however, when the Spanish–American War broke out.
 * In February 1899, the Cuban League returned under American occupation.

Golden Age: 1900–1933
The year 1900 brought fundamental change to the Cuban League. In the aftermath of the Cuban War of Independence and the Spanish–American War, pressures mounted for racial integration of the league. Led by promoters and entrepreneurs such as Abel Linares and Tinti Molina, the league integrated in 1900 with the admission of an all-black club, San Francisco, and the admission of non-white players to some of the other clubs. When San Francisco easily took the pennant, the other clubs quickly began bidding for the top black players. These changes also marked the recognition of the league's status as a fully professional institution.

These changes did not occur without opposition and controversy. At least one team owner sold his interest rather than invest in an integrated enterprise. Several of the players from the upper classes moved to amateur leagues, which continued to compete behind walls of racial segregation.

The next major change came in 1907 when the Fe team began loading up with black American stars, such as Rube Foster, Home Run Johnson, Pete Hill, and Bill Monroe. Soon the other teams were also bringing in the Negro league stars, culminating in the 1912 Habana, which easily took the title with a team featuring Hall-of-Famers Joe Williams, John Henry Lloyd, and Pete Hill, as well as Home Run Johnson and Cuban stars Julián Castillo, Carlos Morán, and Luis Padrón. According to González Echevarría, "These teams were clearly of major-league quality, combining the cream of Negro baseball with the best Cuba had to offer, and a few white major leaguers to boot." Only Almendares was able to remain competitive for a while without American reinforcements, relying on its strong core of Cuban-born pitchers including Hall-of-Famer José Méndez, Eustaquio Pedroso, and José Muñoz.

As the Cuban League strengthened, it began doing much better in its now regular competitions against major league teams. In 1908 Méndez blanked the Cincinnati Reds for 25 consecutive innings, including a 1-hit, 9-strikeout shutout. In 1910 the Cuban teams beat the World Series champion Philadelphia Athletics, 6 games to 4, leading the embarrassed Commissioner to issue a ban on post-season exhibition games by the reigning World Series champion.

During the 1910s a number of white Cuban players began to break into major league ranks, including the outstanding Cincinnati Reds pitcher Dolf Luque, catcher Mike González, and outfielder Armando Marsans. Black Cuban players competed regularly in the Negro leagues, where Cristóbal Torriente and José Méndez became stars. During the 1920s the Cuban League reached its apex in quality, as top Negro league stars such as Oscar Charleston, Jud Wilson, John Henry Lloyd, Cool Papa Bell, Mule Suttles, Satchel Paige, Bill Foster, and Willie Wells played alongside great Cuban stars such as Martín Dihigo, Cristóbal Torriente, Alejandro Oms, Bernardo Baró, Dolf Luque, and Manuel Cueto. Researchers have estimated that for several seasons the quality of play in the Cuban League probably equaled that of the major leagues.

Highlights

 * In 1902 Habana swept the competition, ending the season with a record of 17-0. Pitcher Carlos (Bebé) Royer pitched every game, also ending with a record of 17-0.
 * In 1903 Habana won the title over Fe in the bottom of the 9th inning of the last game of a 5-game playoff series. Habana's Carlos Royer went 18-10.
 * In 1908, the major league Cincinnati Reds played Cuban League teams in Cuba in the American Series. Cincinnati beat Habana 5–1, but fell 1–5–1 to Almendares, as José Méndez pitched 25 shutout innings. Cuban League teams would play against major league teams in the American Series until 1953.
 * In 1909 Eustaquio Pedroso pitched an 11-inning no-hitter to beat the American League pennant-winning Detroit Tigers. The Cuban teams beat the Tigers (who were without the services of Ty Cobb) 8 games to 4.
 * In 1918 a new Havana stadium, the second Almendares Park, opened a few blocks away from the old one, which was last used in 1916.
 * In 1920 Babe Ruth accompanied the New York Giants to Cuba. Cuban slugger Cristóbal Torriente upstaged the Bambino by blasting 3 home runs in one game.
 * Considered the most dominant team in Cuban League history, the Santa Clara Leopards towered over the league with a record of 36-11. The team featured batting champion Oliver Marcelle, shortstop Dobie Moore who led in hits and triples, outfield great Oscar Charleston who led in runs and stolen bases, and Bill Holland who led in pitching with a record of 10-2. Alejandro Oms, Rube Currie, Dave Brown, José Méndez, Frank Duncan, Frank Warfield, and Pablo Mesa rounded out Cuba's version of the 1927 Yankees.
 * In 1926–27 a rival league, "Triangular", was formed which raided many of the best players.
 * In 1927–28 Jud Wilson won the batting title with a .424 average, while also leading the league in triples with 7. Wilson and Martín Dihigo led Habana to a runaway title.
 * On January 1, 1929 Cool Papa Bell brought in the new year by hitting 3 inside-the-park home runs in one game. That season Alejandro Oms set the all-time single-season batting record by hitting .432.
 * In October 1930 marked the opening of a new ballpark, La Tropical Stadium, which replaced the second Almendares Park.
 * In 1932–33, Habana and Almendares ended the season in a tie. With an unstable political situation, plans for a playoff were scuttled and no winner was declared. For the second season in a row, no American players were brought in, reflecting Cuba's poor economic situation.

Adjusting to change: 1934–1961
Following the death in 1930 of Cuban League owner Abel Linares, the economic depression of the early 1930s, and the 1933 political uprising that overthrew President Gerardo Machado, the Cuban League found itself in difficult circumstances. The 1933–34 season was cancelled, and when it returned the following season it was without American players or some of the biggest Cuban-born stars, such as Martín Dihigo.

Gradually, though, the league regained its strength. Fulgencio Batista, who effectively ruled Cuba as dictator from 1933 onwards, considered the disarray of the Cuban League to be a national disgrace, and appointed fellow army officer Ignacio Galíndez as commissioner of professional baseball. He also named his aide-de-camp, Jaime Mariné, to head the new sports ministry (Dirección General Nacional de Deportes, or DGND). Under Mariné and Galíndez, the league was restored to its former glory and financial stability. Before the 1930s had ended, the league had enjoyed dramatic play from Dihigo, Josh Gibson, Willie Wells, Ray Brown, Roberto (Bobby) Estalella, Lázaro Salazar, Alejandro Carrasquel, Ray Dandridge, and Sam Bankhead.

During World War II, travel restrictions cut off most of the supply of U.S. players. However, Cuba's own talent flourished as players such as Manuel (Cocaína) Garcia, Alejandro Crespo, Silvio García, and Claro Duany starred. After the war, attendance flourished as several exciting pennant races took place, especially the 1946–47 campaign, which many consider to be the greatest pennant race in Cuban League history. American players, such as Dick Sisler, Lou Klein, Max Lanier, and Sal Maglie, returned to Cuba and participated alongside new Cuban stars such as Orestes (Minnie) Miñoso, Connie Marrero, Julio Moreno, and Sandalio (Sandy) Consuegra. In 1946 a modern, new stadium opened in Havana, Gran Stadium (now known as Latin American Stadium), with a capacity for 35,000 spectators.

In the aftermath of the Mexican League's efforts in 1945 to sign major league players, U.S. organized baseball engaged in an effort to control the flow of players in Cuba and the other Caribbean leagues. This effort culminated in a 1947 agreement between the Cuban League and the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues to bring top minor league and new major league players to Cuba for winter league play. The next season a second league—the Players' Federation—was formed, consisting largely of players who were outlawed by organized baseball for their play in the Mexican League. This new league, however, proved not to be viable and lasted only one season.

Throughout the 1950s baseball flourished under the new arrangements. Cuba performed very well in the annual Caribbean Series, and also fielded a summer team, the Havana Sugar Kings, at first in the Florida International League, and later in the International League. Stars of the 1950s included Minnie Miñoso, Pedro Formental, Rocky Nelson, Camilo Pascual, Sandy Amorós, and Pedro Ramos. However, with the Cuban Revolution in 1959, the days of professional baseball in Cuba were numbered. In March 1961, one month after the end of the 1960–61 Cuban League season, the government decreed the abolition of professional baseball. Many of the professional players became exiles in the United States or other Latin American countries. In Cuba baseball lived on in the form of an amateur Cuban national baseball league including the Cuban National Series, as the government reformed the system to focus on national goals.

Highlights

 * In 1935–36 Martín Dihigo dominated the league as perhaps no other player in history; he led the league in pitching (11-2) as well as in most of the hitting categories: average (.358), runs (42), hits (63), triples (8), and RBI (38), while leading Santa Clara to the pennant.
 * In 1936–37 Ray Brown had a magnificent season, going 21-4 for a Santa Clara team that was 16-28 with its other pitchers. In a 3-game playoff, Brown beat Martín Dihigo of Marianao 6 to 1 in the first game, but Silvio García won the second game for Santa Clara. In the concluding game Dihigo came back with two days' rest to beat the Santa Clara Leopards 7–3.
 * In 1938–39 Josh Gibson shattered the old home run record of 7 (set by Mule Suttles) by slugging 11 in 163 at-bats. (Home runs had always been scarce in Cuban baseball due to the expansive size of the playing fields. For example, the dimensions of La Tropical Stadium are listed as 398 feet down the right field line, 498 feet down the left field line, and 505 feet to straight center field.)
 * In 1941–42 Ramón Bragaña set a record for most consecutive scoreless innings with $39 2/3$, while leading Almendares to a pennant in a tight race against Habana.
 * In 1945–46 Dick Sisler led the league with 9 home runs, including 3 homers in one game. Minnie Miñoso won the Rookie of the Year award.
 * 1946–47 was the most famous pennant race in Cuban League history. During the last month Almendares began making up a 6-game deficit to Habana. On February 23, 1947, Habana had a $1 1/2$ game lead over Almendares with a 3-game series remaining between the rivals—Almendares would need to win all 3 to win. In the first game Max Lanier of Almendares won a 4–2 decision over Habana. The next day, Agapito Mayor of Almendares beat Fred Martin of Habana 2–1 when Andrés Fleitas tripled to knock in the winning run in the seventh inning. The following day Almendares manager Dolf Luque decided to use Max Lanier on 1 day's rest, and Lanier pitched a complete-game 9–2 victory to seal the pennant.
 * In 1952–53 Lou Klein set the all-time home run record with 16.
 * In 1955–56 Camilo Pascual led Cienfuegos to the pennant with a 12-5 record and 1.91 earned run average.
 * In 1956–57 Minnie Miñoso led Marianao to the pennant while winning the batting championship with a .312 average.
 * The fall of Fulgencio Batista on January 1, 1959, to the Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro led to the temporary suspension of play until January 6, but eventually all of the scheduled games were made up.
 * As relations between the United States and Cuba deteriorated, American players stayed at home during the 1960–61 season. Pedro Ramos led Cienfuegos to the Cuban League's final pennant. Luis Tiant, Jr. went 10-8 to win the Rookie of the Year award. One month after the end of the season, professional baseball was abolished, to be replaced by the amateur Cuban national baseball system.

source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Cuban League


text:
koki

Etymology
From a local brand name.

Noun

 * 1)  A fibre-tip pen.

Etymology
From, diminutive of , from , from.

Noun

 * 1) cook

Etymology
From either or.

Noun

 * 1) fruit and leaves of any Lycium species used in cooking: goji, wolfberry

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) shell

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) shell

Etymology
From, shortening of , from.

Noun

 * 1) cockatoo

title: koki


text:
Talk:Pharr, Texas

Untitled
I made a major major major revision to take out advertisements. Pharr is a fun place, but wikipedia is not the place for overt advertising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zarahemlite (talk • contribs) 14:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pharr, Texas


text:
Eric Goldman

Eric Goldman (born April 15, 1968) is a law professor at Santa Clara University School of Law. He also co-directs the law school's High Tech Law Institute and co-supervises the law school's Privacy Law Certificate.

Career
Goldman was an assistant professor at Marquette University Law School, General Counsel of Epinions.com, and a technology transactions attorney at Cooley Godward. He then joined the faculty at Santa Clara University.

Goldman was part of the first wave of teaching Internet Law courses in law schools, having taught his first course in 1995–96. He has testified before Congress on the Consumer Review Fairness Act, Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act (SESTA), and Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA). In a well-publicized December 2005 post to his Technology & Marketing Law Blog, Goldman incorrectly predicted Wikipedia's demise in five years. Goldman has co-authored (with Rebecca Tushnet of Harvard Law) the first Advertising & Marketing Law casebook for the law school community.

He has been shortlisted as an "IP Thought Leader" by Managing IP magazine and named an "IP Vanguard" by the California State Bar's Intellectual Property section.

Goldman publishes the Technology & Marketing Law Blog, which covers Internet Law, Intellectual Property, and Advertising Law. The blog was named to the ABA Journal's Blawg 100 Hall of Fame.

Goldman oversees DoctoredReviews.com, a website designed to combat doctors' efforts to suppress patients' reviews, serves on the board of directors of the Public Participation Project, a group lobbying for federal anti-SLAPP legislation and coauthored an amicus brief in the 1-800 Contacts, Inc. v. WhenU.com, Inc. case with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

Books

 * Advertising & Marketing Law: Cases and Materials (2nd Edition, 2014; 3rd Edition, 2016; 4th Edition, 2018) co-authored with Rebecca Tushnet (the first casebook on this topic)
 * INTERNET LAW: CASES & MATERIALS (2014; 2015; 2016; 2017; 2018; 2019 editions)
 * Find Kitty Nala (co-authored with Lisa Goldman) (2016)

title: Eric Goldman


text:
Talk:David Croft (TV producer)

Why not the official home page?
Is there any reason why David Croft's official home page (www.davidcroft.co.uk) is not listed among the external links? If there isn't, I'd like to add it, if nobody will mind. /Ludde23 Talk Contrib 22:56, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Big lists
I've just removed most of the lists from this page. My reasoning is because Wikipedia isn't IMDb, they were all unreferenced and, primarily, because they were very confusing (because he was mostly director/producer/exec on all of his self-penned shows, with very specific instances when he wasn't). If anybody objects, the previous edit is available here. However, I would recommend that these should at least be made into prose or something - really, this wants to be a biography more than a list. Bob talk 17:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Proof of how up-to-date Wikipedia is
This article is an example of how up-to-date Wikipedia is - this gave me the first news of the death of this person. A few minutes after finding out he had died on Wikipedia, I heard his death announced on the Radio Four news. So, I actually learnt of his death before I heard it on the radio news!ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yet more proof that Wikipedia is a reliable source, all the anti-vandalism bots are doing a good job as well. Akjar13 (talk) 15:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Reason for name change?
The introduction for the article gives two names for the person, a birth name and a later public name. When and what was the reason that he changed his name? What name was he known under when he was in the British Army? It would improve the article if some background information was given.--TGC55 (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:David Croft (TV producer)


text:
Richard LaGravenese

Richard LaGravenese (born October 30, 1959) is an American screenwriter and film director, known for The Fisher King, The Bridges of Madison County, and Behind the Candelabra.

Personal life
LaGravenese was born in Brooklyn, New York, the son of a taxi driver. He is of Italian descent. He graduated from New York University's Tisch School of the Arts in 1980 with a bachelor of fine arts degree in acting.

Career
LaGravenese wrote The Fisher King on spec in the late 1980s. It was acquired by Stacey Sher, Lynda Obst, Debra Hill's production company and subsequently directed by Terry Gilliam. For writing the film, LaGravenese received a nomination for the Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay.

In New York City during the early 1980s, billed as "The Double R" comedy duo, in collaboration with playwright Richard O'Donnell, LaGravenese co-penned and consecutively performed in several Off-Off-Broadway productions including Spare Parts, Blood-Brothers at The 78th Street Theatre Lab, The Lion Theatre, and West Bank Cafe.

LaGravenese wrote an adaptation for the famously on-and-off version of the musical Gypsy for Barbra Streisand. In 2015, he revealed that he'd spent several months working on the script with Streisand. "I had the best time with her. I can’t even tell you. It was like a fantasy come true. I did my first draft and went to her house to do rewrites. She’s so meticulous in the best possible way. We went through it page by page by page."

title: Richard LaGravenese


text:
ambicija

Etymology
Ultimately from, borrowed via other European languages.

Noun

 * 1) ambition

Noun

 * 1) ambition

title: ambicija


text:
Talk:Indian National Association

Was this really the first political association in British India? I thought it was preceded by the British Indian Association and the short-lived Indian League. --mais (talk) 23:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Role of different association in awakening of nationalism
I need an answer from this question <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 15:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Indian National Association


text:
Dancing with Demons

Dancing with Demons is a boxing drama novel written by Indian filmmaker and screenwriter Nidhie Sharma and published in 2014. The book is India's first boxing fiction novel and revolves around two fallen souls who need to defeat their inner demons to become the people they were destined to be.

Plot
Sometimes it takes a single moment to destroy it all. For twenty four year old boxer Karan Pratap Singh, who is on the brink of winning the Heavy weight Boxing Championship, that moment arrives during the last round of the Boxing finals, when he nearly bludgeons his opponent to death in an uncontrolled fit of rage. In that fateful moment, he loses everything he's worked for and is banned from boxing for four years. The four best years of his sporting career, along with his coach and mentor Jerry Fernandez, are lost forever to a rage that he cannot explain. His fall from glory seems fueled by ruthless arrogance and an anger management problem. That, however, is simply symptomatic of a deeper issue. Buried under layers of his fractured subconscious lies a childhood secret, a demon he needs to vanquish, but cannot come to terms with. Karan must vanquish these demons to become the boxer he was meant to be. He must atone and do what it takes to get back into the ring.

Parallelly we meet Sonia Kapoor, a beautiful and volatile young woman with a dark secret that torments her at night but a secret that she seemingly feels no guilt for. Sonia comes to Mumbai on a stormy night with the hope that she, along with her secret, will disappear in the bustling megalopolis. She hopes that Mumbai will hide her and never judge her. But just as a leopard cannot change its spots, nor can the volatile Sonia. And soon, her past catches up with her.

When fate throws Karan and Sonia together in Mumbai, their inner demons and pasts collide and stir up trouble in their fragile and uncertain present. Is it possible to outrun one's past? And is redemption really possible without forgiveness?

Book launch and film adaptation
The boxing redemption saga will be adapted into a Hindi film. Dancing with Demons was launched and the film announced on 18 November 2014, in an event held in Mumbai which was attended by Bollywood actor Arunoday Singh and filmmaker Sudhir Mishra.

Critical reception
The book is critically acclaimed by several Indian authors. News 18 described the book as "it's promising and keeps you entertained throughout." Writing in Deccan Chronicle Anjana Basu states, "a first for its boxing background and for its romantic pair who are so at odds that it seems unlikely that they will ever manage to get together and find true love in a world of lies." She further adds "Strongly visual and action packed, it’s hardly surprising that the author plans to make it into a film."

title: Dancing with Demons


text:
Talk:David Attoub

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:David Attoub


text:
recriminatory

Adjective

 * 1) In the way of recriminations.
 * His dwelling on recriminatory memories pushed him into depression.

title: recriminatory


text:
Masayoshi Ise

Masayoshi Ise (伊勢正義, 28 February 1907 – 18 November 1985) was a Japanese painter. His work was part of the painting event in the art competition at the 1936 Summer Olympics.

title: Masayoshi Ise


text:
Talk:David Clelland

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on David Clelland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080816090655/http://www.recessmonkey.com/2008/07/06/clellands-correspondence/ to http://www.recessmonkey.com/2008/07/06/clellands-correspondence/
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title: Talk:David Clelland


text:
Template:Please leave this line alone

1. Introduction 2. Learn more about editing 3. Explore Wikiversity

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title: Template:Please leave this line alone


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Cell biology improvement drive

Wikiversity participants with an interest in Cell biology can participate in the "Cell biology improvement drive". This Learning Project is a service-oriented Wikiversity project devoted to improvement of Cell biology articles at Wikipedia and development of the Wikibooks textbook about Cell biology.

Participants in the project can become involved in the construction of new Wikiversity pages that are concerned with Cell biology. This "Cell biology improvement drive" also includes improvement of existing Wikipedia pages (for example) and developmet of the Wikibooks cell biology textbook.

This project supports the idea of learning within a Wiki-format university by active participation in the construction of wiki pages. You can pick a topic in Cell Biology that interests you and start reading. As you discover interesting information, add what you have learned to a wiki page about the topic you are learning. Keep a record of what you read and what you write.

Project priorities

 * Create a tutorial about how to mine existing biomedical research databases and other online resources for Cell biology-related information.
 * Create a tutorial about how to make illustrations, including animations.
 * Please check out the cell biology course page. I have added a lot of resources including some pictures in the public domain and links to Itunes lectures. I added my notes but the sites really need a good editor, and I don't have the time or wiki knowledge to make the pages better. I will keep making lessons-I am about 1/4 the way through the course.

Related pages

 * RNA interference - part of Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Note: the Wikipedia page RNA interference continues to improve and is now (Feb 2007) ranked as a "good article". It is a fairly intense article...hopefully the corresponding Wikiversity article can come to provide a reader-friendly guide to the topic.

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title: Cell biology improvement drive