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Talk:The Zeitgeist Movement/Archive 5

Neutral point of view
It seems like the article now has a neutral point of view and tone and is maintaining that. Is it time to take the tags of the top? I think so. In general the article seems good now. Its informative and gives a good idea of the subject. Earl King Jr. (talk) 13:38, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

 * O.K. Removing tags from the article now on the top because of improvements (neutral presentation) in the article. Tone now is just information presentation without promotion. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

criticism section
consensus is important, but WP policies (V, RS, NPOV, translations, ...) trump consensus.

"members of the movement were given an opportunity to respond to the criticism" does not provide sufficient balance to the criticism. A more detailed and specific response to the specific allegations is necessary to provide balance and, in EKJ's own words, "critical thinking".

I have posted a note on Str1977's talk page, and I've also sent him an e-mail (per his request on his talk page), regarding his repeated violation of WP policies on translations. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Again,IjonTichyIjonTichy made a non neutral reversal edit to the article page. Adding information that has repeatedly been taken off by a variety of editors, and incorporating more syn, and o.r. and changing the tone toward redundant advocacy. Earl King Jr. (talk) 15:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Everything in your comment is incorrect. I repaired a repeated violation of WP policies on translations, and improved the balance and neutrality of the four specific allegations ((a) through (d)), and returned a sentence that was provided initially in response to the 'clarification needed' tags posted by Zazaban a few weeks ago. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I read Ijon's message and reviewed the discussion on his talk page. However, I don't see how any policy dictates that we must include a translation of foreign-language parts in a mulit-lingual source. The ref in question appears in a series of publications criticizing TZM for several reasons and only references that "TheMarkerTV" has published such criticism. How is the, pretty much trite introduction, relevant to the article? Str1977 (talk) 16:26, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * How exactly do our readers benefit from denying them access to the translation of the brief intro? When an average person watches a TV interview in which the first few words are in a foreign language that he/she does not understand, even if the remainder was in a language they did understand, for the remainder of the interview they may be puzzled and may wonder if they missed something important in the intro. Translation of intro is provided for proper context and completeness. Without it, the all-important context is missing and the interview is incomplete. That is exactly why the proper journalistic standard is to introduce the guest and the subject of the interview.
 * And the interview is not only about the criticism. It is also an essential component of the TZM response to criticism of anti-semitism, cultism and 9/11 conspiracies, as well as some of the key concepts of TZM. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Our readers benefit greatly from not having their time wasted. The intro is utterly irrelevant, especially to readers of this article which already has introduced them to the topic. And especially since I have read the translation, I can only be puzzled by your claims that without it "the all-important context is missing and the interview is incomplete".
 * No, the interviews is not "only about the criticism" - in fact, it only mentions the criticism briefly but does no criticism of its own. Hence our article's claim "TheMarkerTV criticzed the Zeitgeist movement" is not born out by that video. And I don't see how your last paragraphy is relevant to the item under discussion, namely the quote spamming in the ref. Str1977 (talk) 17:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

TheMarker TV: intro to interview discusses films, so used this source in relation to discussion of films;

More importantly: the interviewer asks TZM to comment (or clarify TZM's position) on allegations that they are blaming people. Keep in mind that the first movie's criticism of international bankers is the entire basis of the antisemitism accusation by Tablet magazine. In the TheMarker TV interview, TZM responds to this criticism (that it blames people). Thus, while you are technically correct that TheMarker TV does not directly criticize or accuse TZM, it is also correct to say that they "discuss various aspects of criticism of the movement" because they ask TZM to respond to criticism (i.e., allegations that were made by other sources).

Otherwise, I'm OK with your edits and have not reverted your summary of the intro (except I slightly modified your summary to  briefly mention the fact that the Hebrew intro also mentions the movies).

[Apologies to EKJ, his edit was not in violation of WP policies on translation because he did not remove the key sentence clarifying that the interview is in English, following a brief Hebrew intro. The original edit by Str1977 was in violation because it removed the key sentence. This is a moot point because then Str1977 studied the WP policies and modified his edits accordingly. This is not to attack anyone or to find faults. This is just to apologize to EKJ and to clarify and explain an old, moot, and by now obsolete point.]

Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

 * IjonTichyIjonTichy Is going from article to connected article with the same handiwork Peter Joseph, the latest. Its a pity because presenting all these subjects in a blatant non-neutral viewpoint and making articles read like official transcripts of Zeitgeist material destroys neutral perspective. The latest one on Peter Joseph, he is doing nearly the same edits as here except more blatantly because no one is watching that article. Earl King Jr. (talk) 02:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Ijon,
 * "The original edit by Str1977 was in violation because it removed the key sentence. This is a moot point because then Str1977 studied the WP policies and modified his edits accordingly."
 * I don't understand this. My edits on this issue before and after "studying" the discussion on your talk page were basically the same, especially regarding the need for translations. I merely later inserted a very short summary as a possible compromise and I am glad you accepted that. But that doesn't mean that we could not do without that summary. Str1977 (talk) 10:24, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Original edit was in violation because it removed the key sentence "Interview conducted in English, following a  brief introduction in Hebrew." After you reviewed the policies you re-instated this key sentence. Without this key sentence, any reader / editor could, upon watching the first 3 seconds of the interview, remove the source altogether, because, acting in good faith, they would assume the interview was not in English.
 * BTW, your explanation on why summarizing the intro serves the needs of our readers is very good, fair and reasonable. I should have thought of it myself. I agree with it fully.  Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 12:36, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Sustainable development clarification
The term "sustainable development" only needs clarification if the article Sustainable development is unclear or if something else, more specific is meant. And in that case, we should IMO keep only the clarification, and not the link to Sustainable development. As the article and the clarification as far as I can tell currently agrees, the clarification is not needed. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Journal of Contemporary Religion article
I made some changes to the 2nd criticism item, based on the JCR article:
 * 1) It is not the Journal that issued that criticism but an article penned by two authors.
 * 2) Linking the movement to the movement is both banal (they are obviously connected, at least in some way) and not a criticism. The second sentence then criticized the movie (and at least in the quote in a not very sophisticated manner). The result: an article criticizes a movement for being connected to a film that claims X and Y. Sorry, that's not good enough!
 * 3) Since I can't access the full article, I cannot improve the passage here much, but even the headline "Conspirituality" shows that there is more than what I previously criticized.
 * 4) In such short a passage, it  is not neccessary to add the same ref twice.

Str1977 (talk) 17:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I must insist that it is the authors of an article that are doing the criticizing, not (necessarily) the Journal the article is published in. Str1977 (talk) 10:34, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Insistence is not constructive. This is not a process where editors insist. Obviously, when someone says that a journal says so-and-so, it is the authors that say it - the journal doesn't speak unless the publishers of the journal are saying something, which, obviously, isn't the case here. The authors of the article are in the cite. If the authors were noteworthy - say they had articles on Wikipedia, e.g., Goldberg - then we could name the authors in the body because it adds value. Otherwise, it's not useful. That said, I left in what appears to be a compromise, which is the article says (your edit). I can't even follow the rest of what you say about the journal article. I don't know why you keep changing the studiVZ sentences, but your change, other than having the value of being one sentence instead of two, puts the cart before the horse and is subtly non-neutral. I put it back the way it was.--Bbb23 (talk) 11:44, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Journals can have an editorial opinion but they do no necessarily endorse opinions expressed in articles. I understand that these authors are not notable (but is Goldberg?) but there are ways to avoid the problem by stating that it was the article that criticized.
 * Re. StudiVZ: IMHO the StudiVZ ban is part of the whole antisemitism discussion - the groups were banned because of that allegation. Hence it should be included in the same paragraph. That TZM's Australian website denounced that move is not surprising and doesn't deserve a full sentence and certainly not reprinting the ref. Str1977 (talk) 19:26, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

 * The paragraph is too long and looks like a block of words. Also why attach two information things together when they are different in focus and direction? It is a different aspect of critical view and makes a better short paragraph by itself. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:52, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Regarding accessing the full article, I obtained a copy by using WP email to send an email to user Slp1, indicating my own personal email address (because, according to Slp1, it is not possible to use attachments in WP email). I read the article twice, and it does not seem to me it criticizes TZM. It seems it only 'analyzes' or 'discusses' etc., but I did not detect a tone (or angle or direction) of criticism. But I don't object to leaving the citation as it is and where it is currently, i.e., in the 'Criticism' section, because the scholarly article also mentions the 9/11 conspiracy theories in the first movie. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

The assertion by the article in the Journal of Contemporary Religion that the first Z Movie claims that 9/11 was an inside job should be removed, because it is redundant. Our readers already know that the movie has been criticized for conspiracy theories (they know this from the immediately preceding paragraph). The sentence should read only that "An article in the Journal of Contemporary Religion described the movement as an example of a "conspirituality", a synthesis of New Age spirituality and conspiracy theory, asserting that Zeitgeist: The Movie claims that "organized religion is about social control."[19] IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:07, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Resource-based economy
This concept is a big deal in the Zeitgeist scheme of things. Recently that article link (resource-based economy) was removed from the header area of the article. Zeitgeist constantly writes and talks about this term on their official webpages [] so its important to keep that information in the general header of the article as it is tied up completely in their overall plan. What that plan is, is nebulous but that phrase resource-based economy is an integral part of it and they constantly use that term. Earl King Jr. (talk)
 * Yes, some members of the movement still use the term out of habit and momentum and convenience. But, as I said before on this talk page, the movement as a whole is moving away from using this nebulous, meaningless, vague, misleading and unclear term, especially after the separation from The Venus Project, which claims ownership rights to the term. Peter Joseph and other key spokespersons of the movement have not used the term in many months, including in the most recent (and all-important to the movement) Z-Day in February. The term RBE does not help the readers of the article -- in fact it is confusing to our readers. And our separate article on the term RBE is skeletal, confusing, and misleading, and is the subject of a very long and separate dispute. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The term is very clear, the opposite of "vague" or "meaningless". When I first heard 'RBE', I immediately got what it means. And as far as I can tell, everybody in the movement still uses it whenever it is appropriate to use it. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:25, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As I discuss in subsequent comments (below), Peter Joseph is not using the term 'RBE' in 2012. He used the term 'earth based economy' in his TED presentations earlier this year. And he is now using the term 'natural law economy' (the source is a lecture posted on the TZM Official Channel on YouTube). IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, some members of the movement still use the term out of habit and momentum and convenience. But, as I said before on this talk page, the movement as a whole is moving away from using this nebulous, meaningless, vague, misleading and unclear term, especially after the separation from The Venus Project, which claims ownership rights to the term. end quote User:Ijon. Please understand that it is not your call beyond neutral presentation, and your opinion matters not, because it is only an opinion and does not conform with the Zeitgeist official presentation because Zeitgeist movement uses the term http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/category/tags/resource-based-economy, and it is part of their information currently http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq5 Also Fresco does not own the term. That term has been around for decades before Fresco's use of it. It is a mainstream concept with alternative application. Taking that out in the lead (you deleted the link to Resource-based economy that information link, from the article, is against neutral presentation. Your opinion just can not be used to source the article.

 * Also when you say  And our separate article on the term RBE is skeletal, confusing, and misleading, and is the subject of a very long and separate dispute. User:Ijon end quote, that is not so. That dispute started by you is pretty much over and the article is a good article that presents the basics with links to more information, so again your opinion non withstanding, is against the consensus of that article. Also the redundant intro was removed now and can stay off the article. The thing you added just repeats what is there with more words. The editor that removed the long pointless repetitive intro. in a citation is also going with consensus, so please leave that off also. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

 * User Bbb23 on the DRN: "I don't necessarily have a problem with Ijon's suggestions for the lead ..."
 * Everything in my last few comments still stands. Including the fact I oppose the continued use of the skeletal, misleading, meaningless 'alternative definition' in the article on RBE to deliberately mislead our readers into a dead-end that does not provide any meaningful information on TZM to our readers.
 * TZM's official Q&A website has not been significantly updated since the breakup with Venus. The use of the term 'RBE' in TZM's official Q&A is outdated. The main spokespersons for the movement have not used the term 'RBE' in many months in official appearances, including in the most recent Z-day, which is one of the most important yearly events for the movement (in TZM's view).
 * Your repeated removal of the wordy TV interview reference is not only against consensus (as this wordy reference has existed for many weeks on this article and passed the scrutiny of many editors, except yourself), but, and more importantly, is against WP policies on translations.
 * Repeated removal of the TZM response to the StudiViz antisemitism allegation is against consensus, and is yet one more piece of evidence of a coat-racking and POV-pushing operation.
 * IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

 * "TZM's official Q&A website has not been significantly updated since the breakup with Venus. The use of the term 'RBE' in TZM's official Q&A is outdated." - So you say. But you are not WP:RS. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And if it were true, the movement's own website should be a RS for their opinions. To maintain it properly is their responsibility, not ours.
 * "Repeated removal of the TZM response to the StudiViz antisemitism allegation" - if there were any response of substance, I'd agree. But simply contradicting an allegation is not noteworthy, especially since the allegation has been worded in a NPOV manner. A mor substantial response on the antisemitism issue has already been included in the same paragraph. Given that, it goes without saying that TZM would disagree with StudiVZ. Finally, how is an Australian response to a German networking site relevant? Str1977 (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

 * TZM's official Q&A website has not been significantly updated since the breakup with Venus. The use of the term 'RBE' in TZM's official Q&A is outdated. The main spokespersons for the movement have not used the term 'RBE' in many months in official appearances, including in the most recent Z-day, which is one of the most important yearly events for the movement (in TZM's view). End quote IjonTichyIjonTichy. At this point your edits are exhibiting a failure to get it that is pretty stark with the consensus here. Your opinion is not a reliable source and there is no doubt that The Zeitgeist Movement uses the concept of a resource based economy in their most basic presentation of who and what they are http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq5 You yourself Ijon have used the Faq's previously to try and prove some points that you considered 'true'. So selectively using it and then saying it is outdated does not make for a good argument.   Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:53, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean you're somehow unable to do proper research on the internet just because it's related to TZM ? There are many fanatically updated websites and YouTube channels and podcasts directly involved with and related to The Zeitgeist Movement. But nooo, they somehow do not count? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The main spokespersons for the movement have not used the term 'RBE' in many months in official appearances, including in the most recent Z-day, TED-x events, lectures, seminars, etc., all posted on the movement's official website. Our reliable sources support the fact TZM officials not using the term anymore: please see, for example, our most-recently-published reliable secondary sources, e.g. TheMarker article and TheMarker TV interview, both conducted in January 2012; and the two primary sources - the TED-x lectures in Feb. and March. of 2012 (both available at Peter Joseph).

And please see the DRN on the discussion of the lead, regarding why it is important the word 'equal' (sharing of resources among all of humanity) should appear in the lead. IjonTichyIjonTichy IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I think it is safe to say that you lost those arguments. At some point it becomes an issue if you keep returning things against consensus and argument Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Regarding WP:CON, consensus is important. It is powerful. It should be respected. But WP policies are more important. WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV trump WP:CON. And I've not lost the argument TZM is not using the term RBE anymore, because my argument is supported by our reliable secondary sources (TheMarker, TheMarker TV, RT TV interviews in Dec. 2011 and Feb. 2012, etc). And by primary sources such as TED-x lectures and the many lectures during TZM's Z-day. Nor have I lost the argument regarding the importance of incorporating the key aspects of TZM in the lead, because this argument is supported by the WP policy on the lead.
 * Nor have I lost the argument that you continue to waste our time with your complaints and attacking. Instead, I challenge you again, as I've done several times in the past with all editors: re-direct your energies towards providing verifiable citations from a subset of (or all of) our set of reliable secondary sources to help substantially build and greatly develop the main body of the article, and not only the 'criticism' section which has been essentially your almost only focus. This way, the main body of our article will improve, and you, as well as other editors, would have no reason (or reduced reason) to continue to waste everybody's time with you endless complaints.
 * IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 13:56, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * As you've perhaps noticed, I haven't been paying as much attention to the changes to this article in the last week or so. However, in looking at what's changed in the interim, it appears to me that the article has become increasingly slanted in favor of the movement, serving as a platform for what the movement supposedly advocates. The lead and the first part of the Philosophy and history section sound almost the same, like an advertisement for everything that is good and wonderful. And you two are still sniping at each other, more's the pity.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:49, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * How can the article be more slanted in favor of TZM, when both you and Tom harrison have added more criticism of the movement? It is becoming increasingly like a platform for the critics of the movement, not the other way around. (This is not meant as an attack on you or Tom.) And why are my verifiable citations from reliable secondary sources considered 'remarkably problematic'? These reliable sources support the fact TZM is moving away from the term 'RBE'. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I specified what parts of the article are pro-movement. Your edits removed sourced information w/o explanation, in particular, you removed the studiVZ ban sentence (now twice), leaving in only the response, you increased the logo size again, and your edit summary reflected none of this.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I did not remove the studiVZ ban sentence, not once and not twice. It's at the end of the middle paragraph in the 'Criticism' section. And the logo size of 280 was agreed to by consensus of many editors before EKJ reduced it to 180. If he can reduce it to 180, why can I not increase it to 220? IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * My apologies about the studiVZ sentence. I saw your removal but didn't realize you had placed it in a different spot. That said, some of your rearrangement of the material doesn't work well and is confusing. As for the logo, please help me out and show me where there was a consensus that it should be 280.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:47, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted. I was trying to improve clarity and readability, by lumping the criticism from Reason magazine, the scholarly journal on religion, Tablet magazine, and studiVZ into a single paragraph, because these do not criticize the economic model proposed by the movement, but rather are all based on the (alleged) connection between the first movie and the movement. (I did not modify the wording of these criticisms before lumping them together.) Then, I collected all the responses of TZM to the criticisms (i.e., to the allegations that are independent of TZM's proposed economic model) into a single paragraph.
 * The logo size was 280 points for the last two years without any editor seeing a need to modify it. An editor reduced it to 180 a few days ago, and I felt 220 was more appropriate. But I will leave it up to you to arbitrate the final logo size and I'll be happy with your final decision on the size. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I went back and looked at reorganizing it, but the problem is it conflates the three criticisms (the journal, Goldberg, and studioVZ) and TZM's responses. Yet, that's not really how it went down. As far as I know, TZM didn't respond to the journal piece, so that has to be separate. And the responses to the Goldberg and studioVZ material were also different. So, I can't see changing it. As for the logo, I think it's big enough, particularly when you take into account that it has the name of the movement in the logo and then just above the (same) name of the article. It doesn't need any more prominence. I realize it's a judgment call, but I think you're wise not to make a big deal out of it.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with all your judgement calls. But if and when more criticism is added, and/or other editors change the wording in the criticism section substantially, and/or my research reveals new TZM responses (say, to the criticism from the scholarly paper, which, as you said, currently does not have a proper TZM response), I reserve the right to edit the criticism section if necessary to improve the balance, tone, accuracy etc. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:49, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That's one hell of a sentence, Ijon. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 18:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

"And I've not lost the argument TZM is not using the term RBE anymore, because my argument is supported by our reliable secondary sources (TheMarker, TheMarker TV, RT TV interviews in Dec. 2011 and Feb. 2012, etc)" - As already pointed out, in TheMarker article, they use the term RBE. I don't know what exact other sources you re referring to (please provide links) but the credibility of that claim is under serious doubt as it is. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:55, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

 * In the TheMarker article, the single reference to RBE is within a paragraph focused entirely and exclusively on a discussion of Jacque Fresco and Venus, not TZM. And the rest of the very lengthy TheMarker article does not mention RBE.
 * The RT TV interview from Dec. 2011, the TheMarker TV interview from January 2012, the RT TV interview dated Feb. 2012, and the TED-x talks in Feb. and March 2012, are all available from the Peter Joseph article. The dates are important, as these are post-Venus-split dates. Pre-split and near-split sources [e.g. the RT TV interview dated Sept. 2011, which is near-split] do mention RBE. In contrast, to the best of my knowledge and memory, the Dec. 2011 source and the 2012 sources do not use RBE to describe the theoretical econ model. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:16, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That these sources fail to mention RBE (except that one do) does not mean that TZM have stopped using the term. You need a reliable source that explicitly says that they have stopped using it. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:51, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Um ... I'm not sure I agree with you on that. You are raising the bar pretty high, and it seems you are not likely to obtain this sort of evidence. Based on watching many tens of hours of TZM videos, reading all their blog entries and newsletters, and especially based on reading all our secondary sources, it seems TZM does not operate by decree, or orders from above, or any sort of hierarchy. These sources tell us TZM sees itself a leaderless movement, and is extremely unlikely to issue any direct orders to its members, including orders to stop using the term RBE. Based on our secondary (and primary) sources, it seems TZM goes to great lengths to make sure it is not perceived as an organization that issues orders or decrees to its members, and thus it seems it would be extremely unlikely we'll ever see a source that explicitly says that TZM stopped using RBE. As they say, in certain circumstances, silence speaks much louder than words. In this case, the lack of usage of the term RBE, despite having numerous opportunities to do so, including a very lengthy print article (TheMarker) and several TV interviews and TED-x talks, speaks pretty loudly. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with OpenFuture. I particularly like the pithy way he put it. Your inferences from the absence are WP:OR or WP:SYNTHESIS or both. You've actually made these sorts of arguments before, as I recall, in connection with antisemitism. They won't fly.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Bbb23, I'm curious - why the opposition to double columns in 'See also'? It seems many good articles or even featured articles have double columns in 'See also.' This is just a question seeking knowledge, not serious objection. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:42, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure which articles you mean because you don't link to any, but it's just like the references section, if a list gets too long, double columns make sense, but with a short list, as here, they don't.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Except that this silence does not exist outside your imagination. The term RBE is used in TheMarker, and in the Q&A from the site. Without any reliable source to say that they have stopped using the term RBE, the claim that they have is nothing but your conjecture. It's WP:OR. You *have* lost this argument. Again. Drop it, it's a dead horse. TZM *is* using the term "Resource-based economy". --OpenFuture (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

No, they are not. As I wrote above, TheMarker only used the term once in a short paragraph that focused exclusively on Fresco and Venus. The rest of this very lengthy article did not mention RBE. And the Q&A has not been updated since the split with Venus. And out of the many 2012 talks and lectures (including Z-day), RT TV appearances, TheMarker TV appearance and TED-x lectures, etc. exactly zero use the term. TZM is definitely moving away from using the term. And as I explained, you have set the bar unrealistically high and you will never see a reference that says that TZM 'ordered' its members to stop using the term.

My main problem is not with the term per se. My main problem is the fact the term has been used in the past as a substitute for explaining TZM's proposed economic model. Key terms such as 'equitable and sustainable sharing of resources' have been removed, and instead the empty term, and the equally empty, skeletal alternative-definition in the RBE article have been substituted-in. This is less of a problem now in the current version of the article, but in the past the term RBE was used in a possible attempt to maybe mislead our readers into the black-hole dead-end that is the RBE article.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

 * Why are you just repeating what you already said over and over and over, instead of listening to what we tell you? There is no "unrealistically high" bar and I have never demanded to see any "order to the members". You are inventing claims and putting them in my mouth again, stop doing that please.
 * So, for the last time: You claim that TZM are moving away from the term "resource-based energy", but you base that solely on your own original research. Well, for the millionth time: you are not a reliable source. What exactly is it that you find difficult to understand in this? --OpenFuture (talk) 23:07, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

My main problem is not with the term per se. My main problem is the fact the term was used in the past as a substitute for explaining TZM's proposed economic model. Key terms such as 'equitable and sustainable sharing of resources', etc., have been removed, and instead the empty term, and the equally empty, skeletal alternative-definition in the RBE article have been substituted-in. This is somewhat less of a problem now in the current version of the article, but in the past the term RBE may have been used in what seemed like a possible attempt to maybe mislead our readers into the black-hole dead-end that is the RBE article, instead of providing substantive info on TZM's proposed econ model.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

 * One way to solve the dispute is to topic ban Ijon from the articles connected for being a disruptive editor. He goes back and forth in every conceivable way of attacking, then praising editors, all the while refusing to abide consensus. I don't think Ijon is actually involved in the so called movement now because his opinions are so very far away from their line, if I can use that term party line; for instance Zeitgeist does use a resource based economics concept which he denies is part of their scheme http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq5 its in their most basic information and conjecturing otherwise is a total disconnect http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/category/tags/resource-based-economy it is integral.

 * So, another format for a topic ban for being a disruptive editor?. No amount of time intensive pleading seems to make any difference about his personal attacks intermittent with equally inappropriate praising for fake or conjured consensus that is 'makes up' o.r. syn. and put downs. How many times do we have to hear the same put downs and have the same o.r. reintroduced? Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:33, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Earl, this is not the place to propose a topic ban. If you want to do so, then take it to WP:ANI or WP:AN.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

 * @IjonTichyIjonTichy: Astonishingly, after I asked you to stop repeating what you just said, and listen, all you did was to repeat, letter for letter, what you just said!? Seriously? That sounds like me that you just don't respect your fellow editors. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I have not looked at the DRN in a few days so I'm only going to refer to your comments posted on this talk page. The reason I repeated myself here is because I responded to your repeated observation that the term RBE is mentioned in the TheMarker article. I repeated myself because your repeated observation, while correct, did not mention the fact that I placed your (correct) observation in a special context re the TheMarker article. (That context is detailed in my previous comment(s) and thus I'm not repeating it here.) Because your second comment did not seem to acknowledge the proper context, I naturally assumed you were acting in good faith and maybe you missed my explanation of the context. That's why I repeated my explanation of the context.
 * In his TED-x talks in 2012 (avail. on the Peter Joseph article), PJ uses the term 'Earth Based Economy' instead of RBE. This may (or may not) present a new set of problems because WP already has an article on Earth Based Economy. But as I said, I'm OK with RBE or EBE or any other acronym, as long as it is only used to complement more substantive descriptions of TZM's philosophy/ history/ ideas, not as a substitute for these explanations. And in the last version of the article I read (about 2 days ago), the term RBE did not immediately seem to have been used as a substitute, but rather as a complement or neutral descriptor, so for now, I don't see a problem with the term RBE (or EBE, etc) in our article. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 13:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits
(revert to consensus on susan brown etc; some members of both groups etc;) End quote IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk)

No consensus for that. Please do not assert consensus unless you find one on the talk page here. What has Susan Brown to do with Zeitgeist? Nothing. Also the other link to the Technocracy Movement article is not connected. There is no connection to that group.

Also 'some members' belonging does not make for critical thinking on this subject. Some members also belong to multi groups. Point is the main organizers of Zeitgeist and Venus Project have made a permanent split, and having anecdotal words saying 'some' etc. is not critical thinking and can be mistaken for a so called weasel word wording. Earl King Jr. (talk) 15:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

 * All of Brown's ideas are almost identical to those of TZM; for example, her essay 'Does Work Really Work?'. This (almost)-equivalence/ high similarity is supported by several primary and secondary sources; for example, the Globes article. All of the ideas of The Technocracy Movement (TTM) are almost identical to those of TZM (because all the ideas of TTM are almost identical to those of the Venus project, by the way). And the dual membership of many TZM members is well-supported. It provides balance and critical thinking and NPOV to our statement that "the groups split and currently are not associated with each other". The word 'some' is used extensively in Wikipedia, most of the time without being mistaken for a weasel word.
 * We have already been through the whole discussion of the issue of 'See Also' previously on this talk page several weeks ago. You may want to review the previous discussion. More importantly, you may want to review WP:See also. I'm not sure what your logic is, as it is not clear from your comment whether you are saying, or perhaps implying, or hinting, or whatever, that only links that mention TZM should be included in 'See also'. (I don't know if that's what you are saying, I'm guessing here because your comment is imprecise and thus leaves me no choice but to try to interpret your comment in an effort to understand what it is precisely you are saying.) If indeed it was true that only links that mention TZM should be included, then all the other links (Ecotopia, Technological utopianism, Criticism of capitalism) should also be removed because they do not mention TZM. Or they should be removed because they are not 'directly' 'related' to TZM, or because they are not 'directly' 'connected' to TZM. Again, it is critical to fully read and comprehend not only the language, but also the intention and the spirit, behind WP:See also.
 * We should also include links to Kropotkin and Bakunin in 'See Also' because their ideas are almost identical to those of The Technocracy Movement (and thus TVP, and thus TZM). And Karl Marx and Carl Sagan --- both of whom are mentioned in the New York Times article on TZM.
 * (This is not a personal attack. I'm sure some of my own past comments have been imprecise, and I often have to read the same WP policy more than once to fully understand its spirit, not only the letter of the policy.) IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We should then include links to Cockaigne, The Matrix, and Gnosticism, because these ideas are almost identical to those of Zeitigeist. Tom Harrison Talk 22:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Tom, your comment is sarcastic, insulting, offensive and highly disrespectful. It does not belong here.
 * Furthermore, in reverting my edits, you rudely, conveniently and completely ignored my reasoning for the inclusion of the (well-supported) dual-membership and for the fact that the second mention of the 9/11 conspiracy theories is redundant and unnecessary, because the conspiracy theories are already discussed in the immediately preceding paragraph.
 * IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 00:34, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

 * No, Tom Harrison is not being rude, sarcastic, insulting, offensive and highly disrespectful. Attacking editors, making personal attacks is not the way to improve the article. The points made by that editor are valid. Turning the article into a link farm takes away from the article, which is now greatly improved and nearly balanced neutrally, a far cry from where it was a few weeks ago.

 * The Venus Project is linked already currently. Zeitgeist has a direct history with them, that is why its in the article links currently. Karl Marx and Carl Sagan are not connected in any way. Browns ideas are not directly related and a stretch to say related at all. She is not connected as a member or speaker or anything to either group. and We should also include links to Kropotkin and Bakunin in 'See Also' because their ideas are almost identical to those of The Technocracy Movement (and thus TVP, and thus TZM). end quote [User IjonTichyIjonTichi. How is it that those peoples ideas are in anyway connected to Technocracy, which is not connected to Zeitgeist or Venus project or the two communist writers you mention? There is no connection except maybe radical social change ideas and there is no shortage of people that could be brought up in that context but its minutia and not relevant. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. The bulk of my response to your comment would be exactly identical to my previous comment (time stamped 16:36, 11 July 2012) and thus I will not repeat it here (out of respect for OpenFuture's previous request that I not repeat myself). The only things I have to add are that (a) based on WP:See also the subject of the link (Brown, etc.) do not have to be directly connected (e.g. as a member or speaker of TZM). Karl Marx and Carl Sagan are mentioned in the NYT; (b) Your labeling of my response to Tom harrison as an attack on Tom is erroneous. I do not consider my response as an attack on Tom. I do not object to Tom's three suggestions for See Also. (Except perhaps a mild objection to Cockaigne because a link to Utopia is already provided in the body of the article.) The Matrix is mentioned in TheMarker, and I'm OK with including Gnosticism. (c) The sarcastic, insulting, offensive and disrespectful part of Tom's comment is the part where Tom writes "because these ideas are almost identical to those of Zeitigeist," because here he is mocking, belittling, disparaging and degrading my immediately preceding comment in which I show ideas that are almost identical to those of Zeitgeist, i.e.,  my explanations on the roots of TVP (going from TZM back to TVP, from TVP back to TTM, from TTM back to Kropotin and Bakunin, and back to Marx, and, of course, the people who influenced Marx, etc., all the way back to antiquity - these influences are listed in the respective WP articles on these persons. And you are right that there is no shortage of people in that context, and I'm proposing we should include some of them in 'See also'). And in his edit (as separate from his comment), he rudely, conveniently and completely ignored my reasoning for the inclusion of the (well-supported) dual-membership and for the fact that the second mention of the 9/11 conspiracy is redundant because the conspiracy is already discussed in the immediately preceding paragraph.

Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 00:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

 * You are edit warring Ijon. You have reinserted the information 4 or 5 times now in a short period without consensus. The 911 mention is in a totally different context and different article. The article links you want to include are about Communism a different subject. Technocracy groups and now Venus Project groups are not connected except historically, mostly because Fresco once upon a time was a member of the Technocracy group. It is mentioned already that Venus Project is formerly connected for context and the article link is in this article. Technocracy groups state explicitly in all of their information that they are not connected to any groups in Europe of elsewhere. If there is a cross over of members between the groups?? that can or could be said for just about any groups in the world and has no bearing. The organizations formally split. As a member advocate of Zeitgeist you have to be careful to stay balanced with neutrality, for the article. Your user box states explicitly that you advocate for Zeitgeist ' ' so utmost caution is suggested regarding neutrality. IjonTichyIjonTichy I am not saying that should or could prevent you from being neutral, but trying to insert material against consensus, outside of the neutrality of the article or introducing side personalities and then being so harsh against other editors will just bring more scrutiny to the article and its difficult enough to make a case for your changes which as you being an advocate, seem biased and opinionated instead of neutral and accurate. The article has seen vast improvement to the point where it really says a lot now. That is because of the more recent neutral editing by uninvolved but interested parties. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:58, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

 * Dear Earl, it seems you are again accusing me of not acting in good faith based on material on my user page. ("As a member advocate of Zeitgeist" "Your user box states explicitly that you advocate for Zeitgeist," followed by copy-paste of a box from my user page, "your changes which as you being an advocate, seem biased and opinionated instead of neutral and accurate.") Please recall that I have previously brought an ANI complaint against you  based, in part, on accusing me of violating AGF. (In that ANI complaint I mistakenly accused you of personal attacks, but a much more experienced editor than me suggested that it was more correct to say that you were actually accusing me of AGF violation).

 * I fully agree with you that all our edits should be balanced, neutral, unbiased and accurate. Which is exactly why (a) I removed the second, unnecessary, repetitious, redundant mention of 9/11, (our readers already know from the previous paragraph that the first movie discusses 9/11 conspiracies, and there is no need to bore them and tax their valuable time with repetitions), (b) I included the brief mention of dual membership of TZM members, which is well-supported by our sources, and provides balance, un-biasedness and neutrality to our description of the separation between TZM and TVP; and (c) why I provided the internal WP links to wage labor and private property, etc; and why I expanded the "See Also" section --- in addition to the reasons listed in WP:See also -- "Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic, and should be limited to a reasonable number." ... "The links in the "See also" section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article, because one purpose of the "See also" links is to enable readers to explore topics that are only peripherally relevant. "
 * A more detailed explanation regarding the removal of the fourth (not second, as I mistakenly stated) mention of conspiracy theories:
 * First mention of conspiracy theory: "The Huffington Post[1], The New York Times[10], The Palm Beach Post[3], Globes[12], TheMarker[11], VC Reporter [4], RT TV[5][6] and Reason magazine[18] criticized various aspects of the Zeitgeist movement, specifically: ... (d) subscribing to 9/11 conspiracy theories in Zeitgeist: The Movie, the original 2007 documentary that helped launch the movement."
 * Second discussion of conspiracy theory: "The movement responded to the criticism by saying that ... (d) there is ... "
 * Third discussion of conspiracy theory: "An article in the Journal of Contemporary Religion described the movement as an example of a "conspirituality", a synthesis of New Age spirituality and conspiracy theory"
 * Fourth mention of conspiracy theory: " ... asserting that Zeitgeist: The Movie claims that "organised religion is about social control and that 9/11 was an inside job."[18] "
 * Our readers don't need to have their time wasted with four repetitions of the same exact issue. The first three are sufficient. By the time they reach the forth, they are well aware that the first movie features conspiracy theories.
 * IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 01:36, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (P.S. I'm confused. First Earl King Jr. defended Tom and his comment ["No, Tom Harrison is not being rude, sarcastic, insulting, offensive and highly disrespectful." .... "The points made by that editor are valid."] Then Earl deleted Tom's suggested links for 'See Also' [after I edited the article to include Tom's 3 links as well as 2 additional links].) IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 02:28, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

 * You are edit warring Ijon. You have reinserted more or less the information 6 times now in a short period without consensus. You removed mine and the other editor you mentioned. Earl King Jr. (talk) 02:43, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I believe your accusation of edit warring is in error. I characterize my edits as an editorial disagreement with your repeated reversions of my edits. I believe my edits are fully justified, as detailed in my comments above. (And I included Tom's suggestions for See Also into the article.)
 * For example, Peter Kropotkin's books are freely available on Wikisource. Based on reading PK's books and also based on the material in our WP article on PK and our articles on PK's work, TZM's ideas as described in detailed in our many secondary and primary sources [including combined tens of hours of TZM videos] - TZM's criticism of capitalism and their solutions/ ideas to replace capitalism - [solutions which are essentially identical to those of TVP] - are practically identical to those of Kropotkin. (Except, of course, that TZM was founded 100 years after Kropotkin, and thus TZM's ideas seem to be more up-to-date with the current spirit of the times (e.g. current science and technology, current modes of governance and culture, etc. --- but the key concepts and core ideas of TZM are identical to those of PK.)
 * Another person we should include in 'See also' is Jean-Jacques Rousseau, because he heavily influenced Marx and most of the other people who influenced PK (who then heavily influenced TTM, who heavily influenced TVP, and thus TZM). Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 02:28, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we should under "See also" add Wyrzysk, because that's where Werner von Braun is born, and he was the directory of the Marshall Space Flight Center, and the man behind the Saturn V rocket that flew Buzz Aldrin to the moon. Buzz is a freemason, just like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who heavily influenced Marx, and Jacque Fresco used to be a Marxist before he invented the Resource-Based Economy that incluenced TZM at it's start. So clearly Wyrzysk must be under "See also". --OpenFuture (talk) 04:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

 * Perfect: Creating a standard perfect Maze usually involves "growing" the Maze while ensuring the no loops and no isolations restriction is kept. Start with the outer wall, and add a wall segment touching it at random. Keep on adding wall segments to the Maze at random, but ensure that each new segment touches an existing wall at one end, and has its other end in an unmade portion of the Maze. If you ever added a wall segment where both ends were separate from the rest of the Maze, that would create a detached wall with a loop around it, and if you ever added a segment such that both ends touch the Maze, that would create an inaccessible area. This is the wall adding method; a nearly identical way to do it is passage carved, where new passage sections are carved such that exactly one end touches an existing passage. Earl King Jr. (talk) 12:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm going to jump in here and then jump right back out. First, taking out the last sentence of the NYT quote doesn't fix the problem. The remaining quote does not fairly characterize the assertion in the material. It is clear from reading the quote in context that the NYT is talking about what the speaker(s) and the movement thinks, not what the NYT thinks. It should be removed from the article. Second, removing the 9/11 reference in the paragraph about the journal is not source-compliant as the source specifically refers to the 9/11 conspiracy theory when discussing the movement.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:19, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, how do you, or other editors recommend to fix that without removing the NYT quote from the article. Shall we say that "the NYT wrote that" instead of "The NYT described the movement's philosophy as", or something like that. what Bbb23 is saying is confusing to me, because in the TZM Z-day presentation that the NYT is referring to, TZM did not refer to its own presentation as "a utopian presentation" and TZM did not describe it's vision by saying that it's similar to "Karl Marx and Carl Sagan had hired John Lennon from his "Imagine" days". These words are the NYT's words, not Zeitgeist's. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:34, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't have a recommendation except that the quote doesn't belong in the article at all. The quote is clearly derivative of what the movement is saying, almost mocking, actually. Thanks for reinstating the 9/11 phrase.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The first time I read it I thought it was mocking. With each successive time I read it I'm less sure it is mocking and more and more convinced it is almost complimentary. But I don't know how to word it properly in order to address your valid and reasonable concerns, so I agree with your suggestion to remove it. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

 * Dear OpenFuture, Earl and Tom, I'd like to suggest a method to resolve the editorial (content) dispute regarding 'See also.'
 * In the sequel I discuss several facts, some (but not all) of which I have discussed and supported in my preceding comments. I respect the fact you don't like it when editors repeat themselves, but I'm including some older material here only for the sake of completeness and continuity/ flow with my newer comments:
 * All of Brown's ideas, including but not limited to her essay 'Does work really work?' are almost identical to those of TZM. (That is, in a Venn diagram, Brown's ideas form a subset within the larger set of the ideas of TZM.) This is supported by at least one secondary source (the Globes article) and primary sources (sections of TZM podcasts and videos discussing TZM's philosophy of work in TZM's proposed economy).
 * All the ideas of The Technocracy Movement (TTM) are almost identical to those of TZM.
 * All the ideas of Peter Kropotkin are almost identical to those of TZM, based on a careful reading of PK's books and papers, which are available freely on Wikisource and/or Anarchist websites, and comparing them to our secondary and primary sources (TZM podcasts, videos, newsletters, etc). [Of course there are some differences between PK and TZM because TZM was established 100 years after PK wrote The Conquest of Bread, e.g. PK writes about steam engines as the state-of-the-art at his time, but PK's books also discuss his general vision and predictions for 20th century science technologies, which, based on the actual current state of science and technology, seem to be pretty accurate predictions.]
 * Carl Marx, Carl Sagan and John Lennon are mentioned directly in the New York Times (NYT) article on TZM: "... a utopian presentation of a money-free and computer-driven vision of the future, a wholesale reimagination of civilization, as if Karl Marx and Carl Sagan had hired John Lennon from his “Imagine” days to do no less than redesign the underlying structures of planetary life. In other words, a not entirely inappropriate response to the zeitgeist itself, ..."
 * This relationship between my links and TZM is not tangentiality. For Brown, TTM and PK the relationship is (almost) equivalence. For Marx, Sagan and Lennon this is based, at a minimum, on a direct quote from what is widely considered to be one of the very best papers in the world, read daily by tens of millions of people globally.
 * Thus, the links I included in the 'See also' section satisfy all of the criteria listed in WP:See also:
 * (a) my suggested links are related to TZM,
 * (b) they are at least peripherally relevant to TZM,
 * (c) they reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on TZM,
 * (d) they are limited to a reasonable number, and
 * (e) they enable readers to explore further (quoting from WP:See also: "The links in the "See also" section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article, because one purpose of the "See also" links is to enable readers to explore topics that are only peripherally relevant.")
 * I suggest we resolve this issue as follows:
 * Please describe specifically, precisely and exactly (without any vagueness or ambiguity, please):
 * (1) which one(s) of the five specific criteria listed above [i.e, (a) through (e)] are violated by my links, listed above in this comment, and
 * (2) how, specifically, precisely and exactly, do they violate these criteria?
 * In order to resolve the editorial conflict, it is important that you please answer both questions for all the links I listed above (and please do not conveniently focus on only a single one of the links I listed above, or a subset of the links I listed, or on the issue of (almost)-equivalence, because it is not even remotely necessary to establish near-equivalence for inclusion in 'See also').
 * In the past (for example when OpenFuture required some sort of proof that TZM officially is not using the term RBE anymore, or in his discussion of fatal flaws of our set of reliable secondary sources on the DRN, or in his most-recent edit summary calling all my links 'completely irrelevant' despite the strong evidence showing [at least some] relevancy), I found some of his explanations/ comments to be vague, insufficiently precise and insufficiently specific. This resulted in my having to interpret OpenFuture's comments to try to understand the bottom line  of his comments, apparently without success, because when I responded to his comments, he informed me that my interpretations were incorrect, and further correspondence led me to become increasingly  frustrated, and seemingly my comments have similarly made him increasingly more frustrated also.
 * Thus, in order to resolve this editorial conflict, it is critical that in all future comments, you (and I, and all editors, of course) try to be as specific, precise and exact as possible, to prevent the cycle of frustration and anger and wasting your, mine, and other editors' time. Thanks.
 * Suggested format (suggested template) of response. I suggest all 3 of you (OpenFuture, Earl, Tom) edit the same bulleted list below. This way, we'll have only one list to discuss, instead of 3 separate lists. Once your (one and only) list is complete and final, I'll respond to it.
 * * L. Susan Brown violates criteria (here, please use one or more of the letters (a) through (e)), because (please provide a specific, precise and exact explanation)
 * * TTM violates criteria (one or more of the letters (a) through (e)), because (explanation)
 * * Kropotkin violates criteria (...), because (...)
 * * Carl Marx violates criteria (...), because ...
 * * Carl Sagan violates criteria (...), because ...
 * * John Lennon violates criteria (...), because ...
 * * Imagine (song) violates criteria (...), because (...)
 * Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:36, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm not going to answer this, and here is why:
 * IjonTichyIjonTichy has recently retracted an apology he made to me for reasons that are entirely devoid of any connection to reality. Within those reasons he accuses me of saying things I never said, doing things I never did and having opinions I never had. I have no time or inclination to deal with this kind of nonsense drama, in which I include the above rant.
 * Although there is no doubt about IjonTichyIjonTichy's good faith, he still do not understand that his opinions are not reliable sources, despite this being explained to him over and over; and he also clearly above are asking me to prove non-existence by asking me in what way links are *not* related to TZM. These things raises doubts of his wp:competence.
 * As a result of these issues I no longer have any inclination to try and engage him in rational discussion, as it's clearly not working. Someone else will have to deal with him. Our future cooperation will have to go via dispute resolutions and administrators. I'm sorry for this, but I really think it's the only way. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I revised the above suggestion for conflict resolution to include Earl and Tom. I revised it without realizing that OpenFuture has already posted a response.
 * The above is not a rant. It is a specific, precise plan to avoid additional frustrations, anger, hurt feelings and waste of time while moving forward in resolving the conflict. The plan is based strictly on the specifications listed in WP:See also.
 * OpenFuture has casually dismissed all my links (and Tom's 3 links) as 'completely irrelevant' in his edit summary. He has not bothered to write a comment to explain why all my links are 'completely irrelevant', except for a sarcastic and bizarre note that did nothing to help move the conflict-resolution process forward.(And how exactly does his sarcasm and attempt to degrade my comments, and his brief, blanket dismissal of my links as 'completely irrelevant' constitute 'rational discussion'? Why is my reasoning for the links, some of which are directly discussed in the NYT an 'opinion'? Why is my reasoning for links that are supported by Globes and TZM audio and video materials an 'opinion'?) Again due to the vagueness, imprecision and lack of exactness of OpenFuture's explanation of his deletion of my links, it is impossible to ascertain what OpenFuture actually means when he says 'completely irrelevant', and one has to resort to interpretations. Surely OpenFuture will then conveniently claim that my interpretations are incorrect and accuse me of of saying things he never said, blame me for accusing him of doing things he never did and blame me for accusing him of having opinions he never had. Why doesn't he simply fill out the simple form/ template I prepared, to help us understand his reasoning and to help us move the edit-resolution process forward?
 * I have no choice but try to interpret his intentions. In my interpretation of his brief edit summary (and he will surely attack me for my interpretation), it seems he already determined that all the links, without exception, are *not* related to TZM. That is, judging only from his saying 'completely irrelevant', my interpretation is that he is saying all my (and Tom's) links violate criteria (b) above (he may believe they also violate other criteria in addition to (b) but OpenFuture's creation of artificial scarcity in precision and exactness of information does not provide us with sufficient knowledge to determine the specific additional criteria violations, if any). If indeed he is saying my links (and Tom's) violate criteria (b), he would seem to be in error, because my (and Tom's) links easily satisfy criteria (b). I'm only asking for Earl, Tom and OpenFuture to provide the specific, exact reasoning behind their blanket and repeated dismissal of all my links, so that I can respond to their specific reasoning, so that we can make progress on resolving the editorial (content) conflict. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

 * To resolve this editorial conflict, it is critical that in all future comments, all editors try very hard to be as specific, precise and exact as possible, to prevent the recurring cycle of frustration and anger and wasting editors' time. Thanks.
 * Suggested format (suggested template) of response. I suggest Earl and Tom (and OpenFuture is welcome too, if he chooses to change his mind) edit the same bulleted list below. This way, we'll have only one list to discuss, instead of 2-3 separate lists. Once the list is complete and final, I'll respond to it.
 * * L. Susan Brown violates criteria (here, please use one or more of the letters (a) through (e)), because (here, please provide a specific, precise and exact explanation)
 * * TTM violates criteria (one or more of the letters (a) through (e)), because (explanation)
 * * Kropotkin violates criteria (...), because (...)
 * * Carl Marx violates criteria (...), because ...
 * * Carl Sagan violates criteria (...), because ...
 * * John Lennon violates criteria (...), because ...
 * * Imagine (song) violates criteria (...), because (...)
 * Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:36, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

 * My response is this segment from here wp:competence and with a combination of your edit warring on the article, being warned about that, personal attacks, and repeating the same things countless times, ignoring friendly help and suggestions and saying things like For Brown, TTM and PK the relationship is (almost) equivalence. For Marx, Sagan and Lennon this is based, at a minimum, on a direct quote from what is widely considered to be one of the very best papers in the world, read daily by tens of millions of people globally. End quote IjonTichyIjonTichy, its seems impossible to debate because no one is going to be drawn into a debate that does not make a lot of sense. There is no connection of the things you are suggesting except the usual suspects of cross connected tangential things. Also your opinions on things like the New York Times does not add anything to the debate. Personally I think it is one of the worst papers on the planet, I think its a corporate fascist rag, but no one cares about my opinion here, its my opinion but has no bearing. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * These seem too peripheral to be useful to the reader, and more likely to confuse than clarify the subject. I'm not sure Ecotopia belongs either. Tom Harrison Talk 11:33, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If it had been an article about ecological utopias in general it would at least have been relevant at The Venus Project. Now I agree it doesn't belong. TZM is a movement, Ecotopia is a book, unrelated except that Ecotopia writes about ecological utopias, and TZM is connected to TVP, which also have an ecological utopia. Again it's just a chain of marginal associations that makes it end up under "See Also", and that's not enough. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

 * Its not connected (Ecotopia) Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:44, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I admit I am a Zeitgeist member
But all I want is that TZM is depicted in a fair way on this page. When I arrived the description was something like: 'A sustainability organisation who supports transition to a money less economy without nations or bounderies.' And then about 4 times as much room spent on criticizing the movement. To me that is not fair. There are a lot more ideas on which the solutions of the movement are founded and having them on this page gives the viewer a chance to understand what the movement is about.

However I am all but to aware that I am biased, so help would be appreciated. Right now I think the information is just a repeat from what is said in the movies and interviews. Please do not delete it right away, but edit it for neutrality or contact me on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wouter Drucker (talk • contribs) 15:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Woops. Sorry for reverting two times. Kind of new here. Could you explain why you deleted my contribution? --Wouter Drucker (talk) 16:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

 * The short answer is that this is an article about TZM. It isn't an article to promote TZM. Wikipedia article content is (with a few specific exceptions) based on verifiable third party published reliable sources. Your contributions weren't. And neither were they written in the proper neutral encyclopaedic tone that is expected. There has been considerable discussion on the appropriate content of the article on this talk page (see also the archives) - I suggest you read through this first, you may get to better understand what is required. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Top Heavy article - neutral issue
Please clarify to me how this article is neutral? It gives a piddly little description of TZM and a huge criticism section in comparison. All attempts to explain what the movement is get neutered down to a sentence or removed. Sorry to say, people are out to make sure this article is not sufficient. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zikalify (talk • contribs) 17:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

 * 'Sorry to say' that by policy, Wikipedia articles are based on third party published reliable sources, and there seem to be precious few of those that actually tell us anything much about TZM. Please take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. Preferably back to TZM - it might help to point out to them that if they attempted to communicate in plain English, rather than buzzwords and jargon, they might get more written about them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:49, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not even going to get into conspiracies with you it's deviating from the issue. I have added info about zeitgeist media fest and a bit more about zday.. is this ok for you mr gatekeeper? EDIT: Oh here we go.

 * I'm not a gatekeeper. I'm a Wikipedia contributor. And if you don't want to "get into conspiracies with" me, why raise them in the first place? Anyway, I've reverted your hype, as lacking third-party sourcing. This is an encyclopaedia article, not free promotion for TZM - if other independent sources don't comment on their activities, neither will we. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Page protection
Due to the current spate of attempts to spin the article, rather than finding appropriate sources and discussing contested content here, I have requested that the article be fully protected against editing. If this is applied, only Wikipedia administrators will be permitted to edit the article, and any changes will have to be arrived at by consensus here first, per WP:FULL policy. I suggest that those wishing to revise the article read up on the appropriate Wikipedia policies, and then find the necessary sources, before making such proposals. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:32, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

This is good, thanks. -- Zikalify (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm very sorry that I didn't see this earlier. Another time, please feel free to ping me as well as putting it on the page protection page, and maybe I can get here faster.   I have protected the page for a week.  Please discuss changes any changes here, and once you have come to agreement let me know, and either I or another admin can lift the protection, or if it still seems better, make the edit ourselves and leave the protection on.--Slp1 (talk) 21:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
I just saw the one page attack he posted to replace the whole article by Andy The Grump. This is called VANDALISM and Andy has proven to be nothing more than a Troll who has no business posting anything, here. Please remove this persons access. Flowersforparis (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC) — Flowersforparis (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

For those who missed it, this is what he posted: "The Zeitgeist Movement is a deranged utopian cult that spends most of its time trying to edit the Wikipedia article about it in order to convince people that its membership consists of more than two men and a dog. Sadly, they once persuaded someone to write a blog in the Huffington post which repeated their bullshit, along with a few other minor journalists with nothing better to write about. They are incapable of explaining their ideas in English, which probably explains why they still get the occasional mention from low-grade journalists trying to fill an empty paragraph or two - if anyone actually understood what they were saying they would realise what a bunch of vacuous imbeciles they are. They seem to think that you can completely remodel the entire global economic system by spouting incomprehensible jargon, and inventing ridiculous conspiracy theories to explan why nobody is taking any notice. They have about as much chance of affecting world events as an ant does of stopping a forest fire by trying to stamp it out. The two men should get a life, and the dog should find a new owner. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:40, 31 July 2012 (UTC)" I am new to wikipedia but this person needs to go. Please contact the WIKI Admins to make this happen Flowersforparis (talk) 19:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I see one of the men has turned up. I expect the other one is walking the dog... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Good synopses, but I thing there may be four. Two are just under deep cover and hard to sort out. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:17, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Seems like it was easily fixed, Flowersforparis. I am curious to know if what Andy said was true. Any feedback on that? -- Avanu (talk) 03:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * You want 'feedback'? Look for yourself: On 'The Zeitgeist Movement Official Blog' you can find an article on 'science denialism' with an image on it that tells you "If your views are scientifically valid, then they're acceptable!" . And no, I'm not cherry-picking either. See Peter Josephs article What about “Democracy” in an R.B.E.M.? :

 * ''To summarize the issue of democracy within an R.B.E.:

 * ''We arrive at decisions via The Scientific Method, not mass consensus, using a referential database which can calculate technical solutions. Since democracy as we know it incorrectly assumes the mass public is adequately informed on every given technical issue, along with the historical reality that mass influence (propaganda) can steer the public in an entirely irrational way, we also see that “mob rule” simply cannot be trusted.

 * ''Now, this isn’t to say public opinion has no place, if they are correctly informed of the variables. In this context, public opinion has a place, but it must stand up to the test of the “Natural Constitution’, which is The Scientific Method. Another caveat with this issue, beyond the issue of value consensus, is the recognition of the emergent nature of reality and how our informational database (the totality of human knowledge) will always be incomplete in some way. It is in this context that public consensus/new research and input is also needed.

 * ''In other words, during periods/contexts where variables are not clear/complete enough, a solution is generated by the perspective of the people with as much assistance from objective calculation (A.I.) as possible. Beyond that, demands of human opinion will always be second to the demands of physical law if our collective species’ goal is to survive on this planet.

 * ''We cannot impose our views on the world; We can only extract them from it.

 * Strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) TZM cult members trying to spin this article tend not to emphasise the rejection of democracy they are promoting, nor do they actually make clear that they seemingly want to hand over political and economic power to "a referential database" (whatever that is). Instead, they try to fill the article with vacuous jargon that means nothing of any consequence, but seem impressive to the gullible.

 * And just to add to the fun, this bunch of loons are terminally naive about technology too - how about this for condensed ignorance of almost Herculean proportions, as a cultist tries to explain why the TZM's technocratic utopia cannot fail:

 * ''When engineers are communicating on building a bridge there is no problem in the communication when it comes to the structure and process to carry out the completion of the bridge. The reason being is that all bridge engineers have the same exact information. When building a bridge everything is done by measurements and mathematics, there is no misinformation in the communication. Hence there is no gap in the translation since it is not based on interpretation, perspective, opinion, or any misinformation. When all bridge engineers are trained with the same up-to-date knowledge and information, there are no opinions in building a bridge, just a symptomatic format of information.

 * There is really only one appropriate response to such idiocy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Yes, all forms of technocracy, including TVP and TZM are a form of science-worship. But that does not make it a cult, and that does not allow you to vandalize the page. Take a deep breath, go for a short wiki break and come back when you have cooled down. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It is maddening to deal with, but with the page protected and people willing on ANI to institute topic bans for pov-pushers, there should be enough reasonable editors to maintain the article. It would be good if sockpuppets could be quickly blocked; if there's any off-site coordination of edits, that will need to be investigated. Tom Harrison Talk 11:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Hopefully yes. It would be lovely if the POV-pushers could help by providing sources that explain the topics instead of just fighting against everybody who doesn't agree with them. My main problem is that all reliable sources I've seen are just interviews with the respective founders spouting a ot of fuzzy clichés. Where is the substance? Could the members of TZM provide some sources with substance? --OpenFuture (talk) 12:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * "Could the members of TZM provide some sources with substance"? I very much doubt it. There is a good reason why so much of this article is sourced to the Huffington Post blog - there has been precious little of the slightest substance written elsewhere. Not that the Huff blog does more than repeat TZM waffle anyway. This 'movement' has had no significant commentary from academic sources other than the Journal of Contemporary Religion article - which wasn't about TZM as such, and seemed, as TZM members pointed out, to be confusing TZM with 'Zeitgeist the Movie' - though such confusion is unsurprising given TZM's inability to communicate.

 * That of course brings us back to why I described TZM as (amongst other things - evidently I was in a particularly grumpy mood) 'a cult'. Though there have been suggestions amongst some academics that the usage of the term might be best avoided given its negative associations in popular culture, this is actually a relatively well-understood term from sociology, and I'd be fully prepared to defend my usage of the term in such contexts. As anyone who has ever studied such movements, or even had the misfortune to try to engage in a rational discussion with members, one of the prime distinguishing characteristics seems to be a bizarre use of language, where words don't mean what normal usage would imply, and buzzwords and seemingly-nonsensical slogans are routinely used as mantras. In the topsy-turvy world of TZM, a movement which is attempting to remodel the entire global economic system is 'non-political', submitting one's autonomy to a database (?) 'liberates human potential', and a 'leaderless' movement hangs on every word of a director of conspiracy-based documentaries. Unless and until either TZM learns how to speak English, or some academic finds the patience to study them in the depth needed to translate for them (an exercise in anthropology/sociology, rather than linguistics), we are always going to have an article that consists of little more than the (first or second-hand) incoherences of TZM jargon, or the largely-beside-the-point comments of their critics. It is impossible to write an encyclopaedic article about 'what TZM stands for' under such circumstances, and an article about 'what TZM does' will either consist instead of 'what TZM says it does', or be best illustrated with an animation of tumbleweed if one relies on outside sources that avoid simply regurgitating TZM's version of 'reality'. In terms of significance in global politics, TZM simply doesn't register, and in terms of being capable of being written about in any meaningful depth an encyclopaedia based on external sources, they are a non-starter. I'm inclined to think that the best solution for Wikipedia might be to delete the article on the grounds of (a) lacking third-party evidence for notability, and (b) lacking third-party evidence for comprehensibility. Actually, the latter falls well within the remit of WP:FRINGE: "A Wikipedia article about a fringe theory should not make it appear more notable than it is. Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources...". The 'fringe theory' here seems to be (from what I can understand beyond the jargon) that TZM is some sort of world-changing 'non-political' political movement. What little evidence there is from independent sources merely confirms that this is what TZM members think. And Wikipedia isn't here to promote political movements, non-political movements, cults or anything else. For TZM to merit inclusion in an encyclopaedia, there has to be evidence that they matter now, rather than that (per WP:CRYSTALBALL) their members think they will matter once their membership reaches a 'critical mass'. The ball is in TZM's court. Do something that actually merits inclusion in an encyclopaedia (which is to say something that more than the occasional blogger notices), and you'll merit an article. Waste everyone's time (including yours) endlessly trying to insert your incomprehensible gloop into this article, and all you'll do is piss off more and more people, until we finally move the article to Wikipedia's own 'relational database' - the one for ex-articles we'd rather not have any further relationship with. With the time you could save not spamming this article, you could do something useful instead - like instructing your members how to write... AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * The most important generally accepted aspects of cults are that they try to isolate members from the outside world, including their own family, and that you get punished someway (from simple social avoidance to harassments of various kinds) if you try to leave. I haven't heard any reports about things like that, and as such, calling it a cult is unfair. Religion, yeah, maybe. Sect... perhaps. Cult, no.
 * Anyway, that's pretty much besides the point, I agree with you in your general assessment about TZM's insubstantiality. --OpenFuture (talk) 17:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Um, no. That might possibly be a 'generally accepted aspect of cults', but it isn't how sociology has defined them. As you say though, this is rather beside the point - which is that there is precious real evidence that TZM, is worthy of a Wikipedia article, regardless of what else it is or isn't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Seems like its a good article for deletion candidate, since it has not really improved citation, notability wise since the last A.F.D. occurred, or, maybe put into, merged into Zeitgeist the Movie despite the argument by them (Zeitgeist) that there is no connection of the movement to the movie (which seems like a breakdown in critical thinking). The critical section in the article is about the only place its written about seriously, other wise its a hodge podge of the movement thinks such and such and such and such, which is empty self sourced 'talk'. Maybe they are notable as the first large scale internet cult as this and the Goldberg article says. Another idea might be to put it in with movies like this The Rocky Horror Picture Show which also has a large cult following. Earl King Jr. (talk) 02:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure we should really be taking the American Spectator piece as a source for anything but the opinions of its author - it is speculative, and seemingly more concerned with linking Loughner with the Zeitgeist movie than actually analysing TZM in any depth. Given all the other guff written by partisan writers trying to pin Loughner's actions on whatever pet hate they have, that TZM are included is hardly surprising. The point is that we could ignore such material, take TZM at their word that they no longer associate themselves with the movie's ideas, and on the basis that their claims are correct discount it as evidence for notability of the Movement, rather than the film. Or we can discount their assertions, in which case this article can be merged with the one on the film. At the moment we have a bizarre article which seemingly bases much of its claims for notability (as seen by outside sources) on something the subject organisation claims is nothing to do with them.

 * As for your comparisons with The Rocky Horror Picture Show, I assume you are joking - though Dr. Frank-N-Furter seemed also to be obsessed with finding technological solutions to social problems, come to think of it. Not that it worked out well for him... ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Tumbleweed
Just an observation, but the TZM supporters seem to have stopped 'contributing' here. Can we take from this that either (a) they agree with my analysis on the 'movement' (if not necessarily the language I used), or (b) this page has been put onto some kind of list of banned websites, to prevent TZM members from being polluted by such ungodly materials? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

 * whatever the reasons their position was untenable from the very start due to the want of reliable secondary sources. suggest a rewrite while you follow wp:brd.--  altetendekrabbe   13:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Groupthink
The only cult that I see here is the one comprised of Andy, OpenFuture, Tom harrison and Earl King (AOTE), who "parrot the party [i.e., Andy's] line with cheerful, rot fidelity." ( Credit and praise to OpenFuture for disagreeing with Andy on his labeling some WP editors - and TZM - as members of a cult. )

AOTE are not part of any conspiracy or cabal; but it seems they are fully engaged in Groupthink. I'd like to thank Andy for providing many interesting, fun-to-read, insightful, constructive comments on a wide range of issues related to TZM and the TZM article. I appreciate that he took a great deal of time and effort to compose long and detailed comments. (In the spirit of the Olympics, I herby officially and humbly transfer my previously-undisputed championship medal for the lengthiest-rant-writing to Andy.) Andy is a much more accomplished WP editor than me and I can only hope that in the rest of my living days I'll contribute to WP, in total, half as much as he has already contributed. I spent some time today studying a small sample of his many contributions (TZM- and, mostly, non-TZM-related) and his work is just phenomenal. He is a brilliant and gifted editor, and has also helped lesser editors (such as myself) by gracefully and generously providing not only feedback but also knowledge, and, even more importantly, wisdom. [I'm not being sarcastic or facetious.]

AOTE's combined recent comments provide valuable insights in helping editors understand why there has been great resistance to fully developing TZM-related articles despite the wealth of reliable secondary and primary sources on TZM (and TZM-related topics e.g. Peter Joseph) - NYT, HuffPo, Palm Beach Po, TheMarker, Globes, VC Reporter, TheMarker TV, RT TV, ... AOTE are acting purely in good faith and their work is motivated only by their desire to help Wikipedia and by their great interest in improving Wikipedia, but their recent set of comments reveal a profound misunderstanding of the Zeitgeist movement. It seems that, regretfully, at the root of AOTE's (highly successful to date) efforts to block almost all citations from the reliable secondary and primary sources [except those with vanishingly small readership that fraudulently exploit the first Z movie to criticize the movement, e.g. antisemitism] are AOTE's misconception and misinterpretation of the movement. These are major contributing factors to their groupthink.

Best regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

'See Also' section

 * I see you've removed the word "non-violent" from the lead which was my only grievance with the article. Thank you for improving the article in the ways you have mentioned. --MeUser42 (talk) 22:08, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you MeUser42 for contributing. A fresh voice is always welcome and needed. Your contributions helped the efforts to develop the article. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ( Unrelated topic ) Regarding 'See also': private property, social equality, Resource allocation, outline of automation, wage labor and profit motive are phrases that are already present in the article. In the past, I've converted these phrases to links but my edits were reverted with the explanation that these created linkfarms. So I'm including them instead per wp:see also. Buckminster Fuller, Ignaz Semmelweis, Wright brothers and Nicola Tesla are discussed in the TheMarker article. Buckminster Fuller is also the subject of a recent TZM radio program, and Ignaz Semmelweis, Wright brothers and Nicola Tesla are also the subjects of several lectures by Ben McLeish. Imagine (song) and Carl Sagan are discussed in the New York Times article, as well as in Zeitgeist: The Movie. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Reverting Avanu's reversion of my edit. (a) Please see my immediately preceding comment. (b) From wp:see also, "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous." In the next few days I'll try to provide such annotations as time permits. (c) From wp:see also, "The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic, and should be limited to a reasonable number." The links I added satisfy all of the above. (d) See this comment by a WP editor. (e) Imagine (song) is also discussed by Heather Donavon in her performance in the  2011 Zeitgeist Media Festival (in addition to the NYT and  Zeitgeist: The Movie). Carl Sagan is also discussed by Peter Joseph in his performance in the 2011 Zeitgeist Media Festival  (in addition to the NYT and  Zeitgeist: The Movie). Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Users Avanu and YouReallayCan have reverted my 'See also' edits with the edit summary that my links are not 'directly related'. May I respectfully, but firmly, request that users Avanu and YouReallyCan read wp:see also: "The links in the "See also" section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article, because one purpose of the "See also" links is to enable readers to explore topics that are only peripherally relevant." Moreover, it is bizarre to say that phrases (wage labor etc.) which are directly copy-pasted from the body of the article itself into the 'see also' section are not directly related to the article. Best wishes, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * - Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic, and should be limited to a reasonable number. As a general rule the "See also" section should not repeat links which appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes. - Its normal that have seen here that we focus on truly associated issues/things - and we keep them down - we dont add all sorts of everything - people that have no affiliations with a subject should not be added  imo - they may well object and song and suchlike - imo we usually keep the see also more focused than you are interpreting the guideline - ratgher than edit warring and reverting - accept that other user disagree with your interpretation of the guideline and open a WP:3O or other WP:DR - thanks -  You  really  can  16:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As per your suggestion I've opened a DRN. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't take this to dispute resolution, Ijon. I agree with YRC's analysis.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Bbb23, but I believe YRC is incorrect. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please note that this edit is not a 3RR violation because it is unrelated to the 'See also' dispute. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not how WP:3RR works. That edit counts as a revert. At this point, though you have made three reverts and have not yet technically breached 3RR. The next "revert", as that term is defined in the policy, would.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with the others, Tichy -- which means your edits lack WP:CONSENSUS by a large margin. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh? How is my edit discussing Zeitgeist Media Festival (ZMF) constitute a revert of YRC's or Avanu's 'See also' edit? I understand that my reverting Avanu once counts as a revert, and my reverting YRC also counts as a revert, thus I have a combined two reverts (both on 'See also') which is why I did not revert YRC's 'See also' again. But how does my ZMF edit constitute a revert of anything? My ZMF edit did not reverse the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material. And I don't understand the edit summary by Darkness Shines. What does "Prt YRC & the block evader ATG. (TW)" mean? Can anyone please translate this to plain English? (The only thing I understand is that YRC refers to user YouReallyCan.) IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Really, Ijon, read the policy: "Undoing other editors—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert." Technically, any change to the article constitutes a "revert", although some quibble about adding material.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've read your comment and the policy. You are wrong in saying "any change to the article constitutes a revert." Just because there is a dispute on 'See also' does not imply that all other parts of the article are out-of-limits to me (or to Avanu or YRC). My ZMF edits are not reverts because they did not reverse the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. My ZMF edit definitely did not involve a revert of the same material ('See also') nor a revert of different material, because Avanu or YRC did not edit the section titled 'Z-day', thus my ZMF edits to the 'Z-day' section do not constitute a revert of Avanu or YRC. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * My last try (no more comments after this one from me on this issue). If the article says, "He is 30 years old" and you change it to "He was 30 years old", that's a revert, as defined by 3RR, even assuming your change was absolutely correct and non-controversial. An admin looking at a 3RR report might use his or her discretion not to block you, but you take the risk that the admin will not be lenient.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with being correct or incorrect, or being controversial or non-controversial. My ZMF edits were not a revert of anything, period. Not only because they were an addition, but because the section of the article I edited, and the material contained in that edit, are not related to the on-going dispute on another section. Your view is equivalent to stating that because an editor is involved in an edit dispute, he is automatically blocked from editing the page, period. Regardless of whether his future edits have anything to do with the dispute. (Which gives rise to another question - Until when is he blocked? 24 hours? Indefinitely?) Can you see now why your interpretation of the policy is too broad and incorrect?  IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

DS has explained his cryptic edit summary on my talk page: "Should have been, "Per YRC & the block evader ATG" YRC - YouReallyCan ATG - Andythegrump. Both are experienced editors with a very good eye for editing, so if both of them were reverting you then you need to take it to the talk page rather than editwar. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC) IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * DS thank you for the feedback but your comment is completely, entirely wrong. (Except perhaps for DS's assessment of YRC and ATG's experience and editing skills, on which DS is probably right although I can't comment on YRC because I'm not familiar with his contributions - all I know is his case is in front of ArbCom. I've commented above on ATG's skills.) DS reverted my ZMF edit because he was under the impression YRC and ATG reverted it, but my ZMF edit was not previously reverted by any editors before DS. Thus, DS's edit summary and comment feels like DS reverted my edit just out of blind, knee-jerk support for YRC and and ATG, because DS's edit summary and comment don't provide any substance as to why ZMF should not be reported in the TZM article. DS will be well-advised to read my previous comment on Groupthink. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Darkness Shines, consider doing the right thing and the honorable thing and reverse your own revert of my edit. Otherwise, I will ask an administrator (such as Bbb23, if he is an admin) to do so. WP articles are not supposed to be based on blind support of other editors, knee-jerk loyalty to other editors, and completely misguided motives. This sort of editing is unacceptable. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

We have been over IjonTichyIjonTichys obsessive "See Also" linking many times here. He has had this explained to him over and over including on WP:DRN by people not involved with this article, but he refuses to listen. Taking it to DRN *again* is hardly useful. To me his behavior has now become purely disruptive. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It is your behavior that is disruptive, and your comment again proves that you are deeply engaged in groupthink and that you are the one that refuses to listen, or to develop awareness and competency. If you were not blinded by groupthink, you would have noticed that my addition of the Zeitgeist Media Festival (ZMF) [to the section of TZM annual activities] is well-supported by reliable sources, and its removal by DS was baseless and groundless, driven entirely by DS's erroneous and misguided motivations to come to the aid of his friends YRC and ATG (more groupthink) without any knowledge of the context of editing the TZM article. And if you were not blinded by groupthink, you would notice that the vast majority of the 'See also' links I have added to the article two days ago are new links - I've not included most of them in my previous edits of 'See also'. And I'm not alone in my view that phrases, which originally appeared in the body of the article as links to WP articles (such as wage labor etc) but which now appear in the body of the article only as key phrases without links, should, at the very least, be provided as links in 'See also', per WP policy. This problem would not have occurred if AOTE would have left the links in the body of the article; instead, in their zeal to act as gatekeepers/ guardians-of-the-status-quo, they removed the links. And now they blame me for the consequences of their bad decisions (another key trait of groupthink is to blame the messenger of bad news). And all the other links I provided are fully supported by several secondary and primary sources, and fully adhere to wp:see also. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

@IjonTichy, the 'See Also' section is intended to help people find resources on Wikipedia that will lead them to a better understanding of the subject of the article. While I could see there was a casual connection between many of the items on your list, some of these were almost entirely unrelated. For example, what do the Wright brothers, who are best known for their heavier-than-air craft flight experiments, have to do with a cashless society and lack of privately-owned property? Most people would say "nothing at all", even if the Wright brothers had a private interest in such things. You're not supposed to help create some thread of thought type thing where people just tie up these connections on their own. A movie like Metropolis or The Great Dictator might also fit here by your logic, but they are only peripherally-related, in the sense that they explore deep themes of the human condition. The point is, 'See Also' is not a place for anything you can imagine has a slight relationship to the subject of the article. It is intended to help people explore the subject in a deeper sense. An article about Agriculture might link to a History of Agriculture or to Aeroponics, but not to The Grapes of Wrath. They simply aren't closely- or directly-related. If you're not willing to see this point, you may want to back away from this subject for a while and allow editors with less direct involvement in this subject to edit the article. After all, one of our core pillars at Wikipedia is an article that is neutral in tone. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 21:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * From the TheMarker article on the Zeitgeist movement: "On his way to changing the economic system Joseph needs to deal with quite a few bumps and obstacles. First, a matter of degrees: Western culture, he says, is obsessed with the importance it attaches to academic degrees. "They say I'm just a musician," he said in a documentary filmed in 2009. "Throughout history, the thinkers who pointed to the biggest failures are those who arrived from outside the system. Ignaz Semmelweis, the Hungarian doctor who raised the possibility of bacteria and called for doctors to wash their hands, died penniless in a mental hospital. They believed he was crazy. The establishment has always fought those who used scientific knowledge in a way that unsettled the establishment and the status-quo. In every intellectual class, and especially in the academic world, there is a desire to preserve all that they have learned. It is particularly common among economists. It's like a religion. But I'm not excited. To be a thinker of culture means to live at the margins of society. The Wright brothers, among the greatest inventors, and Nicola Tesla, the most prominent electrical engineer, were on the margins of society. That's where you can always find great people." [End direct quote from TheMarker.]
 * And Ignaz Zemmelweis, the Wright brothers and Nicola Tesla are also the subjects of several lectures by Ben McLeish and Peter Joseph, and it is possible to provide the direct quotes from these sources as well. From wp:see also: "The links in the "See also" section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article, because one purpose of the "See also" links is to enable readers to explore topics that are only peripherally relevant." All the links I provided help readers gain a better, deeper, broader understanding of the subject of the article. This is exactly why I provided them. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "a thinker of culture means to live at the margins of society" -- that isn't a direct relationship, IjonTichy. Your Zeitgeist Movement is about a cashless society and commonly-held 'property'. It is not about every single person who happens to think differently or live at the fringe of society. It is not about the struggle for inventors or scientific revolutionaries in gaining acceptance for their ideas. Perhaps Flubber and Robert Kearns somehow belong in your version of 'See Also' as well? Not a chance. You need to understand that 'See Also' isn't 'Stuff That I Think Relates'. It has a purpose and it needs to be brief and clearly related, not 'peripherally relevant'. -- Avanu (talk) 21:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear Avanu, your views seem to contradict WP policy. First of all, these links are clearly related - otherwise they would not have been discussed in reliable secondary sources (TheMarker) and primary sources (PJ and Ben McL lectures, Zeitgeist Media Festival, Zeitgeist documentary films, ...) And you seem to be saying that links that are only peripherally relevant should not be included, which directly contradicts WP policy which specifically states that "one purpose of 'See also' is to be to enable readers to explore topics that are only peripherally relevant." You are right that TZM is about the abolition of cash, property, wage labor etc. But TZM is about more than that. It is about advocating the development of the train of thought that this abolition is not only essential, but possible; TZM is directly about developing a whole new consciousness, a radical new mindset, a new awareness. (In the past I tried to include phrases supporting this into the article, based on direct quotes from reliable secondary sources, but my edits were deleted.) The movement is indeed about  thinking differently and living at the fringe of society. That's exactly why Ignaz Zemmelweis, the Wright brothers, Nicola Tesla, Imagine (song) and Carl Sagan are highly relevant and directly related to the article. IF they were not directly related, they would not have been discussed repeatedly and recently. Best wishes, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * IjonTichy, you are severely overstating the one occurence of "peripherally relevant" in that *guideline* (by the way, not a policy). For example, you should also note that "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent". Some of your 'See Also' links have zero apparent relevance, and you claim above that the relevance is because of some third party creating a link by a mention in a lecture.
 * Also, the most obvious part of the 'See Also' guideline is "Whether a link belongs in the 'See also' section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense ." and "many high-quality, comprehensive articles do not have a 'See also' section."
 * Rather than continue to debate largely irrelevant side issues, why not simply focus on the article itself? You've been debating this for some time now, and a lot of people disagree. Add in what people *can* agree on, and leave the rest out. What is the big problem with just doing that much? -- Avanu (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The encyclopedia that anyone can edit is abused by enthusiasts wanting to promote their favorite topic every day. The issues here illustrate another of those cases, and no amount of wikilawyering will hide the fact that an SPA is attempting to unduly promote an idea by spreading it through as many articles as possible. Please save us all the bother and move on to other topics at Wikipedia, or to other websites. Johnuniq (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Just so that Avanu and other editors who are new to this article can get to understand the scope of the problem, here is a (probably incomplete) list of topics that has bee removed from this article since April. Not all of these was added by IjonTichyIjonTichy, but the vast majority was:

Accumulation by dispossession, Adhocracy, An Anarchist FAQ, Anarchism and issues related to love and sex, Anarchist communism, Anarchist schools of thought, Artificial intelligence, Artificial scarcity, Automation, Berkeley Software Distribution, Buckminster Fuller, Carl Sagan, Cockaigne, Communalism (political philosophy), Conservation (ethic), Consumerism, Criticism of communism, Criticism of economics, Criticisms of anarchism, Criticisms of Marxism, Criticisms of socialism, Direct democracy, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality, Dystopia, Eco-communalism, Ecological economics, Ecotopia, Free software movement, Friendly artificial intelligence, From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, Gift economy, Gnosticism, Great Transition, Ignaz Semmelweis, Imagine (song), Inverted totalitarianism, Jared Lee Loughner, Kyriarchy, Libertarian socialism, L. Susan Brown, Monthly Review, Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution, Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Natural environment, Nicola Tesla, One-Dimensional Man, outline of automation, Peter Kropotkin, Post-scarcity economy, Poverty, private property, profit motive, Public goods, Refusal of work, Relations of production, Resource allocation, Singularitarianism, Social anarchism, social equality, Social justice, Societal views on intellectual property, Stateless society, Sustainable development, Technocracy, Technocracy movement, Technogaianism, Technological unemployment, Technorealism, The commons, The Law of Peoples, The Matrix, The Social Contract, The Transparent Society, Tikkun olam, Utopia, Utopian socialism, wage labor, Wright brothers.

Anyone who doubts this can look through the archives, where there is at least two discussions with IjonTichyIjonTicky about his abuse of the See Also section. He knows that he can't add this. He just doesn't care. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

 * IjonTichy, why? Have you ever taken a writing course, and if so, did you pass it? This reminds me of the people who hold a hand-written sign and stand on buckets at the National Mall and try to get people to believe their rants. I knew a professor once, who was in charge of drama, and his comment surprised me, because most liberal-ish types are usually grousing on and on about freedom to say whatever they like. Those are the types that throw crap on a canvas and call it art. But this professor said, sometimes you need limits to fully be able to creatively express yourself. He said without limits, the creative spirit gets lazy and inartful, and when limits are put in place, the mind has to expand and look at things differently. I think you might benefit with some limits. -- Avanu (talk) 07:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I recall Robert Frost likened "free verse" to "playing tennis without a net." Reasonable rules result in reasonable articles. Collect (talk) 08:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Ijon, You repeat the same stuff almost endlessly and so far have added re-added and then gone in circles 100 times over mostly pointless things that no one else agrees with you about. Thanks other editor for removing the crazy number of pointless reference citations. It seems a pity to waste peoples time and Ijon you just will not stop. You came close to being topic blocked previously in your flurry of litigiousness. Disruptive editor. Earl King Jr. (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 18:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Dear Avanu, (a) Thanks for clarifying it's a guideline, not a policy. (b) That "peripherally relevant" occurs only once in the guideline does not make it any less important than the rest of the guideline, and does not make it into a "severely overstated" part of the guideline.  (c) Please see my previous comment(s), where I have explicitly offered  to provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent. (d) "... and you claim above that the relevance is because of some third party creating a link by a mention in a lecture." (e) Ben McLeish is a spokesperson for the movement, and appeared on at least two TV shows in Europe discussing TZM. His name was recently removed by AndytheGrump from the article. (f) If you have time, please read Andy's most-recent (lengthly) set of comments. He is wrong on each and every one of his points of analysis of TZM. (And note AOTE's comments in support of Andy's.) Unlike AOTE I don't have an infinite amount of time to dedicate to editing WP, but if I had the time I would have proven that each and every and all points made by Andy are incorrect [and he is also guilty of cherry picking, but probably not intentionally because he seems to be dedicated to intellectual honesty.] (AOTE, as well as all editors on this article, are only motivated by good faith and their desire to help wikipedia and improve the project.) (g) Thanks for clarifying re the editorial judgement and common sense. In my judgement and common sense (and I'm not alone on this, see my earlier comment) these links should be included. That's why I started a DRN (YRC directly suggested I seek dispute resolution; the DRN is closed temporarily because of YRC's ArbCom issue). (h) Yes, "many high-quality, comprehensive articles do not have a 'See also' section." That's because these high-Q articles contain the links directly within the body of the article. Similarly, a subset of the links in question were originally linked from within the body of the TZM article. The removal of these links from within the body of the TZM article (by AOTE and Bbb23) is what created the problem. If these links (wage labor etc.) would have remained in the body of the article there would not be a need to include them in 'See also'. (i) These are not "largely irrelevant side issues". Throughout my entire time on this article I tried repeatedly to "simply focus on the article itself", but "a lot of people disagree" because almost all of them have, at best, watched 45 minutes of TZM videos [some of them directly admit to this], or some of them are only operating out of blind loyalty to other editors [DS directly admitted to this] and they consider this sufficient knowledge to delete and remove my edits, despite the fact all my edits are supported by reliable secondary and primary sources. (All of the editors here, as well as on the ArbCom, are purely motivated by good faith and a burning desire to help wikipedia). I've tried repeatedly to add in what I thought surely people *can* agree on, and tried to leave the rest out. (k) Now can you see "What is the big problem with just doing that much?"
 * P.S. Regarding the comments by OpenFuture and Earl, it is yet another evidence of their groupthink. They are conveniently ignoring this guideline. I was a newbie when I contributed the large set of links above, which formed part of my great expansion of the TZM article. In my enthusiasm I was learning (and still am learning) about many WP articles related to WP, and wanted to share with WP readers. In contrast, AOTE have a policy of creating artificial scarcity in information. They have never stopped attacking me for the edits I made as a newbie, and continue to attack me for these as well as my new edits, and their attacks are motivating other editors to join the attack, instead of engaging in rational, civil discussion focused on listening to alternative viewpoints. They should learn from Avanu who seemed to be genuinely interested in opening his mind to learn without prior judgement, as evidenced by the set of questions he posed to me. And all these attacks only provide additional proof that Ignas Semmelweis, Wright Brothers etc. should be included either in the article or in 'See also' (preferably in the article). Regards, 19:00, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll bite, explain exactly what the Wright brothers have to do with this movement, were they a part of it? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

(Apologies for partially repeating earlier comments.) TZM is not only about the abolition of wage labor, property, money etc. More importantly, it is about advocating the development of a new train of thought that this abolition is not only absolutely essential and highly profitable for society [profit not in a financial sense, of course], but also quite possible and achievable: TZM says it is, chiefly and directly, about elevating the mind, developing a whole new consciousness, a radical new mindset, a new awareness. (In the past I included phrases supporting this in the lead of the article, based on verifiable citations from reliable secondary and primary sources, but my edits were deleted.) The movement is mostly about advocating that society at large remove all limits to thinking differently and that humanity not be afraid to think differently, and advocating that people all over the globe not be afraid to live at the fringe of society and be considered mal-adjusted persons. (TZM frequently says society at large should follow Martin Luther King's call to humanity: There are certain things in our nation and in the world which I am proud to be maladjusted and which I hope all men of good-will will be maladjusted until the good societies realize — I say very honestly that I never intend to become adjusted to — segregation and discrimination. I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry.) That's exactly why Ignaz Zemmelweis, the Wright brothers, Tesla etc. are frequently discussed in TZM lectures, media festivals, documentary movies, and in secondary sources such as TheMarker: because Wright Bros., Tesla, Semmelweis etc. advocated that society-at-large be open to new discoveries/ inventions/ mind-sets that were, in their view, not only essential and profitable for society, but also possible and achievable; these inventors tried to convince society at large to develop a new train of thought, to elevate the mind, develop a whole new consciousness, a radical new mindset; and they were not afraid that society at large labeled them mal-adjusted, they were not afraid of living at the margins, and called for society at large to similarly not to be afraid of these labels and not to be afraid of being pushed to the margins of society. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I asked for a reason for their inclusion in the see also section, not a sermon. You do not have a reason other then TZM like the Wright brothers, that is not a good enough reason to have them in the see also section. Nor for the others you mention above in fact. So I am against inclusion of all of these into this article at all. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. By Ijon's "logic", we would add see also's for all inventors, people who raise consciousness, radical thinkers, and the list goes on endlessly.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:55, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And do you have WP:RS for TZM "elevating people's minds"? ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * [Response to DS and Bbb] No, only those explicitly mentioned in reliable sources related to TZM. All my links are in reliable secondary and primary sources about TZM. All my links should be included because they fully satisfy all the criteria in  the guideline.
 * [Response to Andy] In this RT TV interview, starting at about 1:20,  TZM tries to explain why TZM is not utopianism (re Andy's tagging as 'vague' in the article). [This is only one of several WP:RS for TZM not believing in utopia, I will try to provide you with some of the other sources if and when I have more time.] TZM believes social, economic and political systems need to be updated with advancements in science and technology. TZM believes that, for example, society has almost not updated our socio-economic system to accommodate the changes mandated by the industrial revolution, and especially the Second Industrial Revolution, which are able to provide abundance of food and all other necessities to the entire human population [when combined with (i) declaring all resources the common heritage of all of humanity, (ii) using these resources sustainably, (iii) shifting scientists and engineers away from designing weapons and bombs and other unneeded rubbish, (iv) shifting people away from working on unneeded garbage like Wall Street and advertising and other occupations that don't contribute to the betterment of human-kind, and instead (v) providing everybody with free access to necessities, (vi) enabling all these people to work on beneficial scientific and technological inventions]. From the RT TV interview:  "The current system ... [is ending] ... because of ... the natural evolution of technology ..." According to TZM, the updating of societal notions of economics, politics, culture etc. with advancements in science and technology is the antidote or cure to the metastasizing cancer (capitalism, the currency socio-economic system, massive debt and debt defaults, high unemployment, profit motive, ...) that Peter Joseph talks about in this TV interview. TZM is calling for technology (e.g. mass automation), due to its cost efficiency and other benefits, to replace the outdated, obsolete notion of wage labor and the profit motive, and instead people will work as much, or as little, as they want (see recent TZM Blog Post on 4-hr workdays as transition-step towards the TZM-proposed economy.) In this RT TV interview, TZM is calling for updating obsolete societal notions to align/ synchronize these notions with advancements in technology; TZM is calling to use science to update and overcome what TZM calls in the RT TV interview "traditional barriers and traditionalized notions which we [mistakenly]  think are empirical".  In the RT TV interview, TZM is calling for updating our notions in order to "provide for the entire human species" "... you make the most efficient production system you can based on what technical knowledge allows us to do, scientific understanding ... to create material abundance ... no-one could ever be starving on this planet ... [money] interferes and limits our possibilities"  later in the same interview TZM explains we need to update our notions of politics, which are currently based on a value system in which politicians (e.g. US Presidents) are elected based on how much they are liked by the public, not by their technical or scientific ability to help humanity. [By the way TZM calls for an equal, stateless and leaderless global society and are not calling for scientists and engineers to become our new rulers/ kings/ Fuhrers/ emperors/ Monarchs/ Sultans/ Pharoahs/ Shahs/ Caliphs/ Sheikhs/ Feudal Lords/ Divinity/ Gods. TZM is very similar to TTM, but this is a key difference between TZM and TTM.] Still later in the RT TV interview, beginning at about the 10:00 mark, "... utopia assumes finality - but there's no such thing as a finality. We're just trying to update society to present-day knowledge. Our notions of economics and politics are based on traditionalized ideas that go back hundreds if not thousands of years. These are completely outdated social structures that do not resemble any of our scientific ingenuity at this point in time, and our ability to care for the human population, which is what a society is supposed to do,  right?  ..." [Ijon Tichy note: here, as well as in other wp:RS, TZM is saying that in their proposed socioeconomic system, society's notions of economics and politics will not be static nor near-static, will not be immutable nor near-immutable, as they are now. On the contrary, society's notions will be dynamic — as is seen in organic life at large — harmony would (it is contended) result from an ever-changing adjustment and readjustment of equilibrium between the multitudes of forces and influences. This adjustment will be driven by advancements in science, technology, art etc., and this adjustment would be much easier to obtain as none of the special elite interests which are today dominating these socioeconomic notions would enjoy a special protection from the state, because society would be stateless, without hierarchy.] At the 14:20 mark of the RT TV interview: "... You can't say, 'Oh, this will never happen because of where we are today.' That's the wrong train of thought. If everyone thought like that, we wouldn't be anywhere." [Ijon Tichy note: This is identical to what the Wright Brothers, Ignaz Semmelseis etc. have said in trying to convince society-at-large, to convince people to expand their imaginative horizons.] [Additional RS on all of the above are available but I'm not likely to have the time in the near future to provide these RS.] ---  Regarding WP:RS for TZM "elevating people's minds": Starting at 4:54 in the same RT TV interview: "The solution is a complete re-ordering ... you start to open your mind up ... put our minds to it ... "  Lauren Lyster: "You are calling for something really untraditional ..."  Peter Joseph: "... it's about appreciating the train of thought ... about how it can benefit society and create the best public health and safety, providing for as many people on the planet as possible ... you re-orient society ..." Also please see the artivist performances in the Zeitgeist Media Festival --- for only one example among several please see the songs by LCOB in this  segment of the 2011 Zeitgeist Media Festival - note the phrases " elevate your mind " and  "you must elevate your mind to a higher state of spiritual awareness to be aware of the re-emergent, symbiotic aspects of natural law". [Ijon note: the movement uses the terms 'emergent' and 'symbiotic' in other TZM-produced materials to denote adaptation of society's socio/ economic/ political/ cultural notions to advancements in science/ technology/ nature, i.e., a constant, on-going, dynamic process of updating - similar to e.g.  adaptive filters and adaptive systems ... ]  Still later in the RT TV discussion, TZM explicitly discusses the importance of the 'train of thought' several more times. And still further after that, Peter Joseph says "... a real revolution is a revolution of values, not a violent revolution to overthrow the state ..."  And if editors feel additional RS are needed (in addition to this RT TV interview), several such RS exist to verify all of the above (and more). But regretfully I don't have the time right now to directly point you to these RS. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't read.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't read.--AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:38, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He who posts something sufficiently long and dense as to make others' minds boggle, may well find that they will not extend him the courtesy of trying to grasp whatever sound material is therein.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Likewise I did not read the above. IjonTichyIjonTichy may like to bear in mind that repeatedly posting walls of text, particularly when there is no clear objective or reliance on Wikipedia's policies, can be taken as evidence of disruptive editing. Johnuniq (talk) 01:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Re 'disruptive editing', see also (but for god's sake don't try to read it...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've read it. (I'm a fast reader). It is Ijon trying to convince other editors (specifically AndyTheGrump) of a certain standpoint, completely ignoring both WP:NOTAFORUM and the fact that Ijon is not a WP:RELIABLE SOURCE. What he says above is "TZM is not utopian, because Utopia is a finality and TZM is not a finality. You are thinking about it wrong". The rest is just barely coherent rambling made worse by lack of formatting and structure to the text. No reliable source for any part of what he actually says is provided.
 * In other words: Yes, you can safely ignore it. He says nothing that is of relevance to the article. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We can ignore it, but should we? He has been spamming this page with this sort of brainless drivel for months. Now he seems to be taking it elsewhere on Wikipedia, even where it is self-evident that nobody gives a flying fruitbat-feather about "why he thinks that TZM aren't a utopian cult because they all believe that their utopia isn't one and they aren't a cult because they all agree with the leader of this leaderless cult that the cult doesn't have any leaders so they can't be a cult, and because Orville Wright would have said so if he'd been at their media festival along with all the other people that are obviously TZM supporters because they are there even if they don't know what TZM stands for and are just there to to show films about whales and because nobody is allowed to think about what TZM stands for in case they have unscientific thoughts or think something that the leader of the leaderless cult might wish they hadn't thought about just in case the big electric brain-thing doesn't like it". Or something. We shouldn't ignore disruption, for the same reason we shouldn't ignore Japanese knotweed. Left uncontrolled it takes over, and smothers everything else, as this talk page demonstrates ... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:57, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Isn't knotweed just an analogy for the pervasiveness of ideas? And doesn't that mean it should be included in the article as well? OK, I won't be a smartalec, but Andy, you're on track here 100%. This discussion page has severely gotten off target and we need a final resolution of this stuff. How about we just make the ruling that nothing else gets added to the "See Also" section without EXPLICIT consensus from the Talk page? All in favor? -- Avanu (talk) 06:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Aye, obviously - though it won't make any difference with regard to Tichy and the TZM in general, as far as I can see.
 * P.S. having once spent a few months in grossly-underpaid 'employment' actually searching for Japanese knotweed (amongst other things) along the banks of the Thames, I can assure you that I'd never underestimate its pervasiveness, or it's ability to outsmart me if I assumed it was mere flora. If TZM could win over recruits of that calibre, we'd have serious problems ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm all for a topic ban here, as IjonTichyIjonTichy not only has a wp:conflict of interest but also a bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I, however, am generally trying to keep away from AN/I and similar areas as I feel it tends to be a waste of time and very energy-draining. If somebody else wants to bring it up, please go ahead. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I posted a comment on Andy's talk page. And OpenFuture has twisted, distorted, misrepresented, misinterpreted, misrelated and misstated my comment above.  OF did not do this on purpose; he is purely motivated by good faith and his desire to help Wikipedia. [I warned OF in the past to stop, but   he is not listening.] My comment above contains the source Andy requested: An RT TV interview (and media festival), and a (detailed, tutorial-style) explanation why - and how - a reliable source (RT TV) is relevant to Andy's request. My comment also contains a (detailed, tutorial-style) reasoning (supported by RT TV) why Andy should remove the 'vague' tag he attached to TZM's response to criticism of utopianism. And my comment also contains material relevant to the 'See also' section discussion. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Given the bizarre rant that Tichy has just posted on my talk page, I can see no option now but to have him site banned per WP:COMPETENCE Note that amongst the other nonsense in this screed, he accuses me of being "to emotionally involved"! Anyway, this needs to go to WP:AN/I. Since I'm obviously involved on a more practical level, it seems preferable for someone without the same prior history to raise it there. Volunteers? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:56, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, nothing IjonTichyIjonTichy says above about me (or as far as I can tell about anything) bears any significant relationship with reality. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

@ Andy: As an uninvolved cool-headed outsider who has no link to either TZM or knotweed, I took the liberty of removing the 'vague' tag as the statement seems perfectly understandable (see edit summary for more detailed reasoning) @ Tichy: the Zeitgeist Movement was founded in 2008, the Wright Brothers, Sagan, Zemmelweiss, Tesla etc. were all long dead by this time, they did not know the movement, condone or contribute to it, so it is intellectually dishonest to add these people to the "See Also" section, just because the TMZ movement references them a lot. And how many editors do you need to tell you to drop it before you realize there is no consensus to include these links that you deem necessary/suitable?  Captain Screebo Parley! 16:26, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I've posted at ANI. After reading around this I don't know what to make of the rather peculiar behaviour. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah good. This person could have been topic banned long ago, for a lot of different reasons. What is the link to the Ani? Please god, make him stop,... with the circular nonsense. Earl King Jr. (talk) 17:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents, IRWolfie- (talk) 17:04, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Zeitgeist Movement/Archive 5