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Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 14

Archived discussion:
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive8, 25 April 2006 to 26 May 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive9, 26 May 2006 to 2 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive10a, 2 June 2006 to 4 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive10b, 4 June 2006 to 10 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive11, 10 June 2006 to 27 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive12, 27 June 2006 to 5 July 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive13, 5 July 2006 to 3 August 2006

Donot Slander a true cultivation way
You apparently are just repeating CCP's tales... You dont seem to have the slightest clue on what you are talking about.

There are reasons why Falun Dafa cultivators clarify the truth about the persecution to people and that has nothing to do with "politics". When someone carries bad thoughts against a true teaching and slanders the Dharma isnt he accumulating terrible sins? Where is his being heading for?

Falun Dafa prcatitioners are letting the world know of the terrible and most inhumane persecution innocent people are facing in China.. hoping to bring an end to these unspeakable atrocities.. and you label that "politics"?

People like you think Buddhist scriptures are something for intellectual studies... you study it like some kind of philosophy and then you are "qualified" for whatever..

The Dalai Lama has said Falun Dafa is "very good".

Gautama Buddha himself prophesized that during this period of time the Great Law (Da Fa ) would spread far and wide.. A Sutra refers to the teaching by the name "the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )" and "the Thus Come One's sudden teaching"

''Alas! In the evil time''

Of the Dharma-Ending Age,

Living beings' blessings are slight,

It is difficult to train them.

Far indeed from the sages of the past!

Their deviant views are deep.

Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;

Many are the wrongs and injuries.

Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,

They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.

The doing is in the mind;

The body suffers the calamities.

There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.

If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],

Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )

- Gautama Buddha

(SE 62-63)

It is only natural that people who consider themselves "qualified" by reading some scriptures as if they were some made-up specualtive philosophy appear during in this period of time.. ... I request you to read this Sutra ..

 * Thus I have heard. At one time the Buddha was in the state of Kushinagara. The Tathagata was to enter Nirvana within three months and the bhikshus and Bodhisattvas as well as the great multitude of beings had come to the Buddha to pay homage to the Buddha and to bow in reverence. The World Honored One was tranquil and silent. He spoke not a word and his light did not appear. Worthy Ananda bowed and asked the Buddha, "O Bhagavan, heretofore whenever you spoke the Dharma, awesome light would naturally appear. Yet today among this great assembly there is no such radiance. There must be a good cause for this, and we wish to hear the Bhagavan's explanation."

 * The Buddha remained silent and did not answer until the request had been repeated three times. He then told Ananda, "After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities (see Five Turbidities), the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas they will pervert and destroy my teachings.... They will lack compassion and they will bear hatred and jealousy even among themselves.

 * "At that time there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will reverently and diligently cultivate immaculate virtue. They will be respected by all people and their teachings will be fair and egalitarian. These cultivators of the Fa will take pity on the poor, they will be mindful of the aged, and they will save and give counsel to those people they find in difficult circumstances. They will at all times exhort others to worship and to protect the sutras and images of the Buddha. They will do meritorious deeds, be resolute and kind and never harm others. They will forsake their bodies for others' benefit. They will hold no great regard for themselves but will be patient, yielding, humane, and peaceful.

 * "If such people exist, the hordes of demonic bhikshus will be jealous of them. The demons will harass them, slander and defame them, expel them from their midst and degrade them. They will ostracize the good monks from the monastic community. Thereafter these demons will not cultivate the Way-virtue. Their temples and monastic buildings will be vacant and overgrown with weeds. For want of care and maintenance their Way-places will drift into ruin and oblivion. The demonic bhikshus will only be greedy for wealth and will amass great heaps of goods. They will refuse to distribute any of it or to use it to gain blessings and virtue.

. ..

 * "When the lives of these demonic bhikshus come to an end their essential spirits will fall into the avici hells. Having committed the five evil sins, they will suffer successive rebirths as hungry ghosts and as animals. They will know all such states of woe as they pass on through aeons as numerous as sands on the banks of the Ganges River. When their offenses are accounted for they will be reborn in a border land where the Triple Jewel is unknown.

 * "When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no longer speak the Dharma. ( According to the Dao school and The Book of Changes this precisely is the period of reversal of yin and yang )

 * Those genuine Shramanas they see will be looked upon as dung and no one will have faith in them. When the Dharma is about to perish, all the gods will begin to weep. Rivers will dry up and the five grains will not ripen. Epidemic diseases will frequently take the lives of multitudes of people. The masses will toil and suffer while the local officials will plot and scheme. No one will adhere to principles. Instead, all people will be ever more numerous like the sands of the ocean-bed. Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two. As the aeon comes to a close, the revolution of the sun and the moon will grow short and the lifespan of people will decrease. Their hair will turn white at the age of forty years. Because of excessive licentious behavior they will quickly exhaust their seminal fluids and will die at a young age, usually before sixty years. As the life-span of males decreases, that of females will increase to seventy, eighty, ninety, or one hundred years.

 * "The great rivers will rise up in disharmony with their natural cycles, yet people will not take notice or feel concern. Extremes of climate will soon be taken for granted. . ..

 * "Then there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will gather together in an unprecedented assembly because they will have all been harried and pursued by hordes of demons. They will no longer dwell in the assemblies, but the Three Vehicles will retreat to the wilderness. In a tranquil place, they will find shelter, happiness, and long life. Gods will protect them and the moon will shine down upon them. The Three Vehicles will have an opportunity to meet together and the way will flourish. However, within fifty-two years the and the, the Standing Buddha Samadhi, will be the first to change and then disappear. The twelve divisions of the canon will gradually follow until they vanish completely, never to appear again. Its words and texts will be totally unknown ever after. The precept sashes of Shramanas will turn white of themselves. When my Dharma disappears, it will be just like an oil lamp which flares brightly for an instant just before it goes out. So too, will the Dharma flare and die. After this time it is difficult to speak with certainty of what will follow.

.I al. .

 * Worthy Ananda addressed the Buddha, "What should we call this Sutra and how shall we uphold it?"

 * The Buddha said, "Ananda, this Sutra is called . Tell everyone to propagate it widely; the merit of your actions will be measureless, beyond reckoning."

 * When the fourfold assembly of disciples heard this Sutra, they grieved and wept. Each of them resolved to attain the true Path of the Supreme Sage. Then bowing to the Buddha, they withdrew.

(SS I xiv-xvi)

Latest archiving
I have archived the last bit of the talk page as it was getting way too big to deal with. If there are bits that you want to use for a point about editing the article, please either link to the appropriate archive or cut and paste quote to here. Thanks. --Fire Star 火星 21:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Good job Fire Star, but you archived current discussion, so I am restoring the discussion about alleged mass organ harvesting by the Chinese government of Falun Gong members.

Can we please get back to the topics at hand?
We need to get a new moderator. I would volunteer; however, the FLG cult members would never allow it. Cj cawley 02:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * of course they would never allow it... when you use such POV language! Frade 11:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Chinese government mass organ harvesting of Falun Gong prisoners
Is China harvesting organs from Falun Gong practitioners?
 * Articles:
 * Global bazaar in body parts, San Francisco Chronicle Thursday, July 20, 2006 by Debra J. Saunders
 * Former Chinese policeman lifts lid on organ harvesting, ABC News Online Tuesday, July 25, 2006 by Michael Edwards
 * Awareness tour stops in Airdrie, Airdrie Echo, Wednesday August 02, 2006 by Brooke Hogemann
 * Police Witness Tells of Organ Harvesting Deals, The Epoch Times, Tuesday, July 08, 2006

--HResearcher 09:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

China is organ harvesting according the the chinese and english epoch times.

<IP_ADDRESS> 09:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Falun Gong mass brain harvesting of Communist cadres!!!
 * See for reference *insert dodgy self-made site*
 * Just kidding. --Sumple (Talk) 10:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you saying the sources suggesting that this happening are dodgy? Mcconn 17:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. All of them appear to derive from the same few unreliable sources (the Epoch Times, a FLG mouthpiece). The fact that a story is repeated several times does not make it true, except to Stalin ("A lie repeated a thousand times becomes the truth").
 * I doubt the veracity of this story because it is way too sensationalistic. Without some neutral and reliable source, it seems like concoction (e.g. for immigration purposes). --Sumple (Talk) 01:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Omido, there is an independent 45 page report. I'm waiting for him to supply proof of this report. --HResearcher 10:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ The new link is up and running. Mcconn 16:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an issue that does need to be investigated by an Independent third party organization. David Matas and David Kilgour are, from what I know of them, Falun Gong practitioners and may have ulterior motivations and hidden agendas. BUT, I and say this with the up most caution, during WW2 only the Jewish papers talked about the holocaust as early as 1939 where as the mainstream press only picked up on it two years after the war ended.

 * David Kilgour is not a Falun Gong practitioner. He is the former Chief Prosecutor of Canada, and a former federal politician having server over 20 years in parliament. This report is independent, and will no doubt form the basis for any further investigations by the likes of Amnesty, etc. Frade 23:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately in today’s world it is all too easy to create an organization and use it to say anything you want. Politicians do it all the time; half the PAC’s that endorse them are ones they created themselves!

We all should encourage groups like Amnesty International and other human rights watch groups to examine this issue and publish their findings. --Otomo 19:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The organ harvesting allegation is a Falun Gong lie
On April 13, 2006, an official from the hospital gave the following statement: “the hospital is lacking the required facilities to conduct organ transplants and has no basement to house the Falun Gong practitioners.” Le Tian, Falun Gong lies slammed by hospital China Daily, April 13, 2006.

According to a document from Ministry of Health of Malaysia, this hospital—Liaoning Thrombus Medical Treatment Center—is partly owned by a Malaysian company, Country Heights Health Sanctuary.

The US government did investigate and the Chinese government cooperated. Officers and staff from the U.S. embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang city have visited the area and the specific site on two separate occasions. According to the State department report, “In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.” US State Department, U.S. Finds No Evidence of Alleged Concentration Camp in China 16 April 2006

More articles expressing doubts about the Falun Gong allegation. Harry Wu of Laogai Research Foundation doubts FLG's claim: http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/bc.cgi?bc/bccn/0606/07chinese

HK newspaper Takunpao's investigation discredits FLGs claim: http://www.takungpao.com/news/06/03/31/ZM-545907.htm

A reporter's first hand experience with Falun Gong media outlet, Epoch Times: http://holidarity.blogspot.com/2006/04/organ-harvesting-controversy.html

Samuel makes a good point in his article: Does the group really believe that six thousand of its members were murdered in Sujiatun? The answer is no. The Falun Gong has kept a record of practitioners who allegedly died due to abuses; their personal information and the causes of their death have been disclosed in a section on the group’s official clearwisdom.net. As of June 3, 2006 the death toll was numbered at 2,898, and none of them were killed in the so-call Sujiatun concentration camp.8 In other words the victims of this crime do not exist! Despite the much so-call evidence and condemnations posted on Falun Gong websites, there is no attempt to account for these six thousand victims—a natural response if the group really believed such a crime has taken place.

Many in the Chinese community here believe the Falun Gong is supported by the Taiwanese government. --Mr.He 23:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

There have been released a 45 page independent investigation (not by FLG people) which states that the organ harvesting are really happening. Omido 14:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Ok boys. First of all, the first source of the organ harvesting allegations did not come from a practitioner or anyone who had anything to do with Falun Gong, it was the ex-wife of a sergan. If you don't think that the source is credible, then read the investigation done by David Matas and David Kilgor to find out why she is. You don't believe Epoch Times or practitioners? Fine. But at this point the weight on these allegations come from the report done by the two affirmentioned Canadians, not practitioners themselves. These are high profile individuals with very good reputations. If I were you I would read up on them and read their investigation report before you go any further with denouncing their claims. After conducting an independent investigation they firmly believe that this organ harvesting is happening and on a large scale. You can currently access their report at this site: http://www.come4u.info/ . I think this is a temporary site until they can get a better domain name.

 * Also take a look at Kilgor and Matas' response to an article in the Embassy Newspaper here

 * Samual's argument is poor. The death toll listed on clearwisdom is not the number of practitioners we believe to have died from the persecution. Instead, it is the number of deaths verified through eyewitness accounts. Practitioners have always said that the true number is likely much higher. Plus, there is a huge number of practitioners that have simply gone missing in China.

 * It took the Chinese government weeks to respond to the allegations of organ harvesting. After a number of weeks they released a statement denying the claims and invited a US delegation to investigate. This was more than enough time to cover up anything they had to hide (and you know they would certainly do this if the allegations were true). This delegation was then given a show tour of the facility.

 * Overall, I find some people's fervant dismissal and denial of something as serious as this, something with so much now supporting it, really appaling. Olaf already commented on how some people's hatred for Falun Gong has spilled over into support for the Chinese government. You may deny this, but your actions show otherwise. Mcconn 16:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * As for Mr.He's assertion that Falun Gong is backed by the Taiwanese government, what fact is this based on? It sounds completely ridiculous. "Anti-Chinese forces" working together, right? Give me a break. Mcconn 16:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

These two Canadians, David Matas and David Kilgor are simply repeating the words of the Falun Gong. The US government has clearly stated that such a crime did not take place, why would I want to believe these Candians who have not even been to China? When the allegation first surface I thought you guys had a legitimate concerned, but as the story developes I found you guys have no interest in studying the evidnences and the facts. All you guys have done is pushing the allegation while ignoring the reports from the US state department and other reliable sources. This is why I believe the whole thing is produced by the Falun Gong, a cult according to American cult experts. I can assure you guys that this lie has turned many Chinese who had chose to ignore the Falun Gong against your cult. --Mr.He 04:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Mr. He, unless you've got something concrete to back up your statements I'm not going to bother responding. I doubt you've even looked at Matas and Kilgor's report or their statments in response to criticism. You place great emphasis on a very shallow and sketchy investigation, while ignoring the more crucial facts. Take some time to do a little more research, consider the other perspective and really try to weigh the situtation. If you can do this I think you'll see which side truly tips the scale. Mcconn 05:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * So it's probably all true, and the Chinese government or somebody related is here trying to deny it with their own lies? --HResearcher 22:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Mcconn I hope you can show people here some respect by not calling us “boys.”

Because this Chinese hospital is partly owned by a Malaysian company which means it is out of the control of local Chinese authorities, and because the US government has verified that such an allegation is false, people like me and Mr. He would rightfully refuse to believe Falun Gong’s Organ Harvesting allegation. Deception is a distinctive trait of Falun Gong. You said that “there is a huge number of practitioners that have simply gone missing in China,” how about the 30 million practitioners outside of China that your group claims to have in 1999? It looks like they have all gone missing, who is killing them? You also said: “I find some people's fervant dismissal and denial of something as serious as this, something with so much now supporting it, really appaling.” What we are doing is exercising our critical thinking or reality check; only cult members would believe in something which is backed by no facts. HResearcher Editing others' words here is a violation, remember that. Are you trying to make anyone who disagrees with the Falun Gong a cousin of the Chinese government? --Samuel Luo 22:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I edited other' words? You mean I changed the sub-header. Anyway, there are conflicting stories which means there is a lot of room for further investigation! And from what I understand there is more investigation underway. --HResearcher 06:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The organ harvesting allegation
Omido, can you please post a link to that 45 page report? --HResearcher 10:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Here it is: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ This is the new domain name, so please disregard the temporary link I provided above. Mcconn 16:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

More political heavyweights are now coming out in support of the claims. In particular, Edward McMillan-Scott, vice-president of the EU, who is currently touring with David Kilgour to raise awareness of the issue. Unlike the US "investigation", McMillan-Scott has actually uncovered more telling evidence pointing towards truth of the allegations.Frade 22:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is Financially supporting the Falun Gong???
Is the Taiwanese government supporting the Falun Gong? Here is what I know, until the beginning of this year boxes of VCDs and pamphlets had shipped to my mother’s house from Taiwan every week. They were then distributed in San Francisco by other practitioners. Every practitioner I talked to told me that producing these material in Taiwan cost much less than anywhere else. No matter how little money they cost someone still has to pay for them, but when I ask who is paying no one knows. Can you tell me why for the last four years (at least) huge quantities of Falun Gong propagandist material were produced and shipped from Taiwan and no one knows who is paying for them?

I have a friend who is working for San Francisco Examiner, a free newspaper. Three years ago he estimated that it costs about $250,000 per month to run the Epoch Times, a nationwide free newspaper which had no ads in its first two years. Who is paying? Practitioners I talked to told me that some rich practitioners in real state business have been paying for it but again no one knows their names. Also it is well known in San Francisco Chinatown that those elderly people protesting in front of Chinese consulate five days a week have been paid about $50 a day. The Falun Gong seems to have a very deep pocket, who is behind it? Many people believe it is the Taiwanese government some believe it is the CIA? What do you believe, aliens from Mars? --Samuel Luo 07:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Falun Gong people seem to have a endless supply of material for free distribution, and many of these material are highly political. The "Nine Commentary On the CPC" VCDs and books are good exmples. These political propaganda are calling for the downfall of the Chinese governmnet.  Producing the VCDs cost some money but what is more costly is the documentary contained in the VCD, who is paying for the producion of this film?  Also the books are printed in good quality which certainly cost a lot of money, who is paying for them?  So, these material are coming from Taiwan that explains everything.  --Mr.He 20:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * There is a prevalent view in the Chinese community, at least here in Australia, that FLG is supported in some way by the Taiwanese government. For example, the recent defector Chen Yonglin defected with FLG support, and now he is popping up at events held by the present Taiwanese regime (that is, officials affiliated with the Democratic Progressive Party). I am not saying that this is evidence of financial backing, but that is certainly how many overseas Chinese view the situation. --Sumple (Talk) 10:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I can tell you that I am a practitioner from Australia, and I have not been involved with things for a very long time. I gradually came to understand what Falun Gong was about and my involvement grew over time. Everything, all materials, posters, events, everything I came across, was paid for by practitioners directly. I have personally put several hundred Australian dollars toward fliers. A doublesided piece of A4 paper costs 1c AUD. For example, one event cost $400 AUD in papers, and several practitioners all contributed. I´ve only been really involved for six months, doing things. People have jobs and they earn money, jobs in the government with decent wages. Those who understand what Falun Gong is in this period of time, and once I came to understand, would not bat an eyelid at giving over a lot of money for this cause. Furthermore, those in China do not bat an eyelid at the thought of brutal torture and a painful death. Maybe the thought of a Falun Gong practitioner now would be "what else have I got to do with the money I earn?" Of course, some people have families and they must look after them. Part of being a practitioner is learning the meaning of responsibility and certainly all practitioners, and Falun Gong in this period of time, is strictly being responsible to themselves and to this society. You are unable to understand the mentality of these people, but I can tell you that in my experience all money that I saw changing hands was between practitioners and printing houses. -- 0:59:04, 7 of August, 2006

You guys are really "digging into a bulls horn". You can gather all the "facts" you want, but you'll never prove anything with this argument. Why? Because it's simply not true. Again, I don't really feel the need to say much about this. No one gets paid any money to protest in front of the Chinese embassy. That's a total lie and, like the rest of your argument, you'll only waste your time trying to prove it. As for materials, there are practitioners in all professions (including graffic design, software engineering, programing, etc.) so as long as we've got the time and the resources (these days you don't need many resources to create a video like that of the nine commentaries) we can do pretty much anything we need. No one has to do anything. It's only because practitioners believe firmly in the cause that they do what they do. As for Sujiatun, I don't personally know all the details (in terms of the Malasian owner relationship), however, the sources never came from Falun Gong practitioners (we merely reported it). So if you think they're lying you can't say that it's Falun Gong practitioners who are lying. This aside, independant and reputable investigators who know a lot more than anyone here does about this whole thing have found these sources credible. Again, I suggest that you actually read the Kilgour and Matas report. It seems that you hold onto your opinion rather blindly (just my perspective). Mcconn 15:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Practitioners have contributed money for printing leaflets, but they have not paid for the boxes of VCDs and booklets from Taiwan nor did they pay for the Epoch Times, the radio network Sound of Hope and the satellite television station New Tang Dynasty. Mcconn, it is true that we don’t have any evidence to back our claim but don’t you find it interesting that no practitioner can provide evidence to relieve our suspicion?      --Samuel Luo 07:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I have seen the boxes from Taiwan full of Dafa material. I have also asked who pays for this, and the answer is the practitioners pay for it.  I have been at a few meetings where practitioners put out a lot of money to get boxes of Dafa material shipped to them.  Some practitioners are well off that they can spend a few hundred each month on material or have a business to make things such as the VCD's or do some small print runs.  Fa conferances are often funded by the hosting practitioners.  This is normal for groups like this.  JW, Mormons and Moonies all pay for thier material to hand out too.  After all, buying materials and handing them out is part of being a practitioner, and somewhat expected. --Otomo 23:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

What kind of evidence would you be looking for? If you want tax receipts and the like, those are the kind of things to be brought up in a court of law, not a simple discussion such as this. How do you know practitioners didn't pay for these things? I bet your parents or some other local practitioners payed for the stuff from Taiwan. Here's the big secret you've all been waiting for: In Taiwan it's cheaper to print things and there is a high concentration of practitioners there, some owning bookstores and probably some owning or operating print houses. So a lot of materials (not all) are made in Taiwan, then when practitioners in different areas need some materials from Taiwan, they contact them, place an order, and pay the printing and shipping costs. There you go. That's how it is. Mcconn 07:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Requests for mediation
I would like to ask everyone involved here to quickly read through the requirements at Requests for mediation. We will be requesting a neutral, official mediator in a non-partisan request to go over the dispute and suggest a plan to go forward. This is the next step in the dispute resolution process. In this step, there are no good guys or bad guys, just disagreement. To insist that anyone is wrong at this stage will derail the process, so I am asking forbearance from everyone while we make this request. Please comment below, I propose making the request in 5 days time if we can get a consensus to move forward with it. --Fire Star 火星 16:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Comments below this line

What happened to Covenant? Mcconn 16:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * There was a misunderstanding about a request he made about this page and he ended up being temporarily blocked a couple of days ago, apparently. Understandably, he probably isn't likely to be willing to continue at this point. Part of why I proposed a 5 day discussion period was to see if he would come back voluntarily. If not (again, understandably) then we still have an article dispute to resolve. --Fire Star 火星 17:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, let's go for official mediation in 5 days. I think we should point out to the mediator that Covenant has already created a "To Do" list and that we should proceed according to the list.  Also, my understanding is that technically Wikipedia does not require a consensus in order to request mediation. In other words, there may be a hold out who is against mediation, but we can still go ahead and request it anyway. --Tomananda 19:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * That is true, even one editor can make the request. The more of us who participate the request, the easier and quicker it will be to get a mediator to sign on, though. Interestingly, the head of the mediation committe is the same Admin that temp-blocked Covenant. --Fire Star 火星 20:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

 * CovenantD has done a lot on Falun Gong pages; I hope he comes back. But if he chooses not to return we should definitely seek a formal mediator.  Firestar has set the deadline on August 8th.  On that day I propose that the article be restored to this version 22:28, 6 July 2006.   --Samuel Luo 21:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda and Samuel,
The persecution in China is real, and you yourself know that.. why do you support that most cruel persecution? Could a person with a bit of goodness in his heart do such a thing? Calm down and look inside... Why do you hate people who cultivate truth, compassion and endurance? What is it that makes you hate zen-shan-ren? Could it be good?

Even after reading all the lies spread by the CCP, people know Falun Gong is good the moment they see the lecture videos.. or meet a practitioner.. they can objectively feel the compassion and goodness..

You may believe that the picture of the world formed by your senses is the truth... but isnt that blind belief in your own notions? The truth can only be objectively understood through cultivation practice.. only in the absence of notions and attachments can the truth be understood.. Whether you believe it or not.. the cosmos carries immense wisdom... it has its characteristic.. which may be put in human terms as zen-shan-ren.. the dao school cultivates zhen.. the buddha school cultivates shan - grand compassion towards all sentient beings..

Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ and all true masters pointed flaws in us which we must eliminate if we are to assimilate to the cosmic characterisitc.. as you progress in cultivation you understand things yourself... you know certain things are bad and goes against your own true nature and the characterisitc of the Cosmos... you made a big issue saying that homosexuality is not considered an upright human behaviour... how could it be? but that doesnt mean the person himself is bad.. What does the Bible say on that? What does the Buddhist scriptures say? As long as a person can realize there are flaws within himself.. and that he must completely eliminate such things that goes against his own true nature he can practice cultivation... but if he thinks I've been like this for as long as i can remember and this is me, he is going down with those things.... they turn against all upright teachings, what Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha taught... they tell themselves Gautama Buddha and Jesus Christ were making things up... and even slander the teachings.. what are they doing to themselves?

When Falun Gong grew so quickly in popularity in China some people who made A living out of teaching qi gong started to slander Falun Gong.. because of their selfish fears.. they dont even remotely suspect what they are doing to themselves by slandering a true cultivation way....

People when they listen to the lectures and spend time with practitioner know Falun Dafa is not something ordinary.... and the faith practitioners have in Falun Dafa is solid like a diamond and unshakable as it comes from cultivation practice, rational understanding, and innumerable objective experiences..

Some with a lot of karma feel terrified when they hear zhen-shan-ren ... why is it so? Think about it if a person wants to coverup and support the killing of innocents what is he carrying within himself? and what about a person who supports the killing of those who cultivate zhen-shan-ren? What kind of person is he?

We must look inwards with sincereity and understand what we have become and what our true self is..

Dilip rajeev 05:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Ok you are again telling us that the Falun Dafa is the most righteous teaching and practitioners are the most righteous people on earth. In this case why is that every time I want to show the Master’s writing to the world you guys always try to stop me?  His words are the most holy, right? --Samuel Luo 07:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Complete List of teachings of Falun Dafa Li Hongzhi's 9-day Lecture in Guangzhou, China Zhuan Falun(Translation by North American Practitioners) Falun Gong Exercise Instruction Videos Essentials for Further Advancement Other Speeches and Writings of Li Hongzhi
 * None of us have ever done such a thing. I have repeatedly said that I hope all editors go through all the teachings of Falun Dafa. All teachings being available for free download. You are taking a semi quote..completely taking it out of context and distorting the meaning.. and giving fancy interpretations to it.. so as to justify your absurd claims.

<IP_ADDRESS> 03:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Silly argument! I am not giving any interpretation to Li's teachings.  Li's words speak for themselves and the fact that Falun Gong practitioners refuse to acknowledge what Li says is an outrageous lie...a lie which Li himself has created by saying you must not speak at the higher levels when talking to ordinary people.  Why not?  Your role as Fa-rectification Dafa disciples is to save us ordinary people, isn't it?  Think about it!  If you don't speak the truth about what Li teaches, how are you ever going to save us?  However, I do have compassion for the bind Li has put you in.  I hope that some day there may be just one practitioner out there who hasn't been totally indoctrinated yet into the Falun Gong party line who might just benefit from reading these discussions.  --Tomananda 05:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

A Survey for Dilip, Mcconn, Andres, Olaf and company
Hey guys, Omido said he believes all these statements of Master Li. Do you as well?

No oriental people in Jesus’ paradise

“I have also found no oriental people in Jesus’ paradise. It is very sad!....I have also found no white people in Buddha’s paradise in the past.”  Falun Dafa Lecture in Sydney Australia (1996)

Li cures illness directly:

“Your illnesses will be cured directly by me. Those who practice at the exercise sites will have my Fashen (law bodies) to cure their illnesses.”   Zhuan Falun, 2nd  edition,   p.126

“The true cultivator has no disease, which my Law body has eradicated, and all that should be done will be done and there is nothing of acupoint massage. . . . It is no problem if you are a doctor because it is your job in ordinary people.” The Law Explication for Falun Dafa’s Assistants of Changchun,  (September 18, 1994), p.11.

Li is preventing the explosion of the universe:

“Today's scientists, too, have discovered the situation in which great changes are taking place in the cosmos. They've discovered that the scope of the universe they can currently see is expanding faster and faster, and the speed of the expansion keeps accelerating. I didn't want to talk about this before--I only taught principles of the Fa. Let's think about it: what does this expansion mean? Something only expands before it explodes; it expands and expands, and when it reaches a certain point it suddenly bursts. So everything is in its final stage. A lot of beings are watching all this with anxiety. As for the old forces, they, with their requirements in mind, are also anxious. Of course, the beings in the new cosmos are also eagerly longing for the conclusion of all this. The immense force of the whole Fa-rectification is doing its final work at an even more forceful speed, which transcends all times. Now it's only a little bit away from catching up with the speed of the surface's expansion. Of course, the speed of the expansion seems to be slow in terms of human time, but it's in fact very fast. I am doing things very fast, too. I've told you before that however much is done up there, that much can be broken through at lower levels. Although the universe is expanding, I'm doing things at an extremely fast speed, and I can definitely catch up with it. If I don't catch up with it, I can tell you, the final disintegration would make everything in the surface dimension cease to exist. If I do catch up with it, it's resolved. Not only will I catch up with it, but I will also surpass it, and that's when the Fa rectifies the human world.” Teaching the Fa at the 2002 Fa Conference in Boston (April 27, 2002)

Li protects his practitioners from harm:

“If you are a genuine practitioner, our Falun will safeguard you. I am rooted in the universe. If anyone could harm you, he would be able to harm me. To make it plainly, he would be able to harm this universe.” Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition, p.44

“I have adjusted your bodies and installed ‘Falun’ (a law wheel installed by the master in the lower abdomen of practitioners). . . and my Fashen (law body) also protects you. “ Falun Gong, revised edition, p.50

Until Falun Gong practitioners are willing to speak the truth about their beliefs, I cannot believe anything else they say. Consider this Wikipedia editing project a test: if you can make clear statements about your belief in Li Hongzhi's great supernatural powers, his exclusive ability to offer salvation for mankind during this period of Fa-rectification, then you pass the test. As long as you continue to conceal the true teachings of Falun Gong, I cannot believe anything else you say about anything. And Dilip, I am not impressed with your sermon above. --Tomananda 07:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Simply put, Tomanada, practitioners of Falun Dafa believe in the teachings of Mr. Li. I think anyone who considers themself a practitioner believes in all of Mr. Li's teachings. This said, in a practitioners course of cultivation it's common to experience doubts over certain things at certain times. This is a natural test of faith that I believe occurs whenever anyone puts their faith in a belief and practices it wholeheartedly. And perhaps there are some things that one may always have difficulty understanding, but because one has gained faith through rational understanding and practice of many other things related to the practice, one nonetheless still believes them. This is faith and I think most people can understand this when they think about it. This is to say, I think your asking these questions is useless. As practitioners we believe in Mr. Li, but at the same time don't like playing your little games. So we may not always respond to these kind of things. From now on I think you should take it as a given that we believe in Mr. Li's words. I've said something similar to this to you before. Mcconn 16:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Mcconn is right. I think that the most important reason for this, on my part, is what he said about "faith through rational understanding and practice of many other things related to the practice". For example, I know that the Falun Gong exercises work unlike anything else one can encounter in this world. That isn't really a matter of belief. I think any "unbeliever" would agree on their anomalous nature after doing the two-hour set of exercises a few times. Of course, if we want specific proof, this fact alone doesn't verify the truthfulness of Li's Dafa. But because of this - in addition to other equally striking phenomena, such as the miraculous changes in the human body and the quality of one's skin resulting from the practice of Falun Dafa - it is not hard to believe in the existence of extraordinary things. Having practiced for four and a half years, I have naturally encountered many other things, too. In short, we know for certain that impressive Falun Gong related phenomena do exist, so why wouldn't we believe in what Master Li says when he has already introduced the world something nobody else has done - something from an utterly different paradigm but still manifesting a tangible reality? On a lighter note, it's like magical realism, right?

 * But I'm also not into playing games, and I have lots of other things to attend to, so sometimes I just don't feel the urge to respond. ---Olaf Stephanos 16:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's get back to the mediator
At least there are more real world people now. Cj cawley 13:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's get CovenantD back
Tomananda and Samuel Luo are responsible for his block. He was investigating them being gay lovers and roommates, and was blocked because of a dispute.

Everyone, it is important for credibility reasons that you fully disclose your relationships with other editors.

I for one find it strange that Samuel has already been accused of sockpuppeting Yueyuen, only to discover the man lives in a house with his FLG parents, and shares a room with Tomananda. This situation is very strange. Very. Something really weird is going on. And I wonder if there is some sort of motive behind Samuel and his lover's many, many posts on Wiki. In fact, it sounds like(from the article Samuel posted), Samuel and Tomananda are being supported by Samuel's FLG parents, living in their house. Samuel is a real person, judging from the article, but his motives are strange. Who puts so much energy, almost every minute of the day, into fighting their parent's religion? Who attacks their parent's religion, when even as a grown man, said person cannot even support himself and still lives with the parents at an old age?

Anyone have a way to interpret all of this? It surely makes no sense. Whitemanners 01:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Tomananda and I share a house and the same Comcast account therefore the only IP address. Although Tomananda is gay and I am straight, we are good friends who share the same values like treating others as one would want to be treated.  And that the Iraq war is based on lies and the Falun Gong is a deceptive, manipulative, racist and homophobic cult.

 * As a son who embraces the traditional values of Chinese family life, I was going to live with my parents and take care of them all of their lives. But sadly I had to leave my parents because living at home became stressful and emotionally draining.  My parents abandoned their medical treatments after being brainwashed into believing that their Master would cure their illnesses with his divine power, and they were clearly heading towards disasters.  Sadly all my attempts to stave off catastrophe failed.  I hated seeing Li’s portrait in our living room and hearing his audio tapes endlessly playing in the kitchen.  Leaving them gave me a chance to maintain my inner peace so I can recover and figure out what to do to get my family back and combat this cult.

 * Whitemanners the above message is not for you but to let everyone know that Tomananda and I are two users sharing the same IP address. I would not expect a heartless creature like you to understand the feeling of a son who has been trying his very best to maintain the relationship with his parents while fighting the cult that has broken up his family.  You think I have done a lot, no not really.  I want to thank you for giving me this push to contribute more on wikipedia.  Stay with us, you will see how much more I can contribute.   --Samuel Luo 06:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, I know how to interpret this situation! We should all consider who the real people are in this discussion and who the phonies are.  A real person will be proud of who he is and respect all others for who they are. Real people speak the truth without fear of being judged by others. As a gay man who came out in the 1960's, I know the destructive nature of living a lie. Living in a wonderfully diverse, dynamic city and having many loving relationships with people of various ethnicities and sexual orientations make me feel blessed.  Your curiousity about my relationship with Samuel,our living arrangements or other aspects of our personal lives is quite amusing.  I'll let you make whatever speculations you want, because none of this relates to editing this Wikipedia article.

 * Meanwhile, if I am to believe that you are a real person, I ask you to take the survey above about your beliefs in Master Li's teachings. If you are like Omido, you will respond by saying that you believe in everything that Master Li says, and nothing that I say.  That's cool with me.  Just be honest and tell us what you do believe as a Falun Gong practitioner--other than the fact that homosexuals have dark hearts, turning demonic, etc.  In a sense, I am asking that you come out of the  Falun Gong closet and speak truthfully about Master Li and your relationship to him.  I will not ridicule you, but rather respect you for being honest for a change.   --Tomananda 05:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Samuel, I am very sorry to hear that your family has been breaking up and I admire your determination in combating this cult. I also want to thank you for writing such a good article on your website.  I hope you and your parents can get back together soon.  I strongly recommend people to check out Samuel’s article-- The untold story of Falun Gong (Falun Dafa) and its Master --Mr.He 21:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Warning Will Robinson, Danger, Danger !!!
If that's not a personal attack, then I don't know what is. How is someone going to "check someone out" over the net? Also, who cares? Two people are still two people. Don't both of their opinions count? What's the difference between the two of them & two FLG people?

As for the medical issues, Dr Feng is a good example. I hope that the ex-wife will follow in her footsteps. Actually, I like the concept of retroactively voiding a person's validity after death. It's a pretty novel idea. Cj cawley 09:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * What really bothers me about how the Falun Gong has ignored Lili Feng's death (by not reporting it on their websites, as if she never existed) is that apparently the practitioners are saying among themselves that she didn't spend enough time studying the Dafa. The suggestion here is that if she had, she might not have died.  But what that thinking leaves out is Li's teaching that sickness is an opportunity to get rid of karma and perhaps Dr. Feng had a lot of karma.  So a much better scenario could have been written by the Falun Gong for their website.  It could have reported that Dr. Feng had made a great contribution to the Falun Gong through her research and that she will always be honored for that. Li then could have said something about karma elimination and how Lili, having now gotten rid of all her karma with his help, is in Falun Gong paradise. I find it truly shocking that some kind of recognition like that has not been provided by Li or at least the top Falun Gong leadership. So much for loyalty to your own soldiers!  If the failure of the Falun Gong to recognize and honor the work of Lili Feng doesn't prove the exploitative nature of the Falun Gong, I don't know what does.  --Tomananda 17:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know why Dr. Lili Feng died, but there is no "top Falun Gong leadership" (would you name these persons and why they are "leaders", in other words, who is under their rule?). Besides, everybody's cultivation is a private matter. Nobody can do it on another person's behalf. And there are no "heroes" or role models in Falun Gong, that's your own sarcasm. Cultivation practice is about returning to one's own, true self. You just don't seem to understand our mentality.

 * Moreover, it is practically impossible for modern medicine to cure liver cancer [correction: pancreatic cancer], because it's one of the most fatal sicknesses. Some people choose to resort to homeopathy, some to traditional chinese medicine, some to synthetic drugs, some to qigong. Enforced medicalization is rather cocksure. We know that qigong in general can cure diseases, but Falun Gong also emphasizes that such effects depend on the individual's own pursuits and purposes.

 * It seems you aren't really concerned about Dr. Lili Feng, you are more interested in how you can polemize and exploit her bones. I have repeatedly stated that if we are right, we don't need proof for that, because everybody would know it in the future, and then it'd show that it was all just a question of "enlightenment quality" to begin with. If we are wrong, then we'll just "swallow our medicine". I have acted to the best of my knowledge, and I believe you have done the same. "Objectively" speaking, condemning CCP's human rights violations emphatically and unequivocally shouldn't depend on whether Falun Gong is completely true or not. ---Olaf Stephanos 17:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Responding to you point by point:
 * Other than Li Hongzhi himself, leaders of Falun Gong include it's "unofficial" spokespersons and media contacts; for example, Gail Rachlin (NYC)generally speaks for the group as a whole and Sherry Zhang plays a similar role in the San Francisco Bay Area. Then there's the fact that the very words Falun Gong (both in English and Chinese) have been patented by the US Patent and Trademark Office. In the more recent patent (Filing date June 17, 2005) the following commercial goods and services are listed for the Falun Gong: "T-shirts; jackets; pants; shirts; vests; suits; dresses; skirts; rain jackets; rain coats; scarves; hats; shoes; baseball caps; head bands; pins; pens; pencils; balloons and umbrellas."  To continue to pretend there is no organizational structure for the Falun Gong is patently (no pun intended) false.

 * You might want to say my use of the word "leaders" is inappropriate, but what else would you call people who organize activities and speak for an organization? Like you, I am involved in grassroots actitivities on a volunteer basis and there's no question that there are "leaders" of our various groups in California.  This is not something to be ashamed of, so I don't know why we are even discussing it.  Could it be because Li has said that in Falun Gong "there are no persons in charge"? But he has also spoken, most recently, of "persons in charge."  So go figure.  Anyway, it's clear to me that Falun Gong leadership (or maybe just Li himself) is responsible for maintaining a consistent PR image for the Falun Gong which is partly based on lies. Do I need to remind you of the way the Clearwisdom editors altered the San Francisco resolution on it's website, deleting wording that might not be totally favorable to the Falun Gong?
 * Despite your suspicions of my motives, my posted concerns about the way the Falun Gong has not publicly acknowledged the death of Dr. Lili Feng are genuine. Because I know some Falun Gong practitioners personally, I ask myself the question: what would happen if one of them were to die? Would the Falun Gong also ignore their deaths as inconvenient facts that might be construed to contradict the Master's teachings on sickness karma? One of the practioner/editors on this site has a mother who has a serious illness which is currently in remission.  He attributes her current good health to Falun Gong practice.  I also wonder: what if she were to have a relapse of this illness (which in western medical terms is very likely) some day.  Would he blame her for this relapse, thinking that she just hadn't been a good enough practitioner?  If so, don't you see something very wrong and exploitative about that?
 * Being on the inside of Falun Gong as a neutral observer, many practitioners that become ill or have a relapse are often accused of not having enough faith in the Teachings and as Mr. Li as the Master. This has lead to many practitioners to just leave FG when they become ill.  If the ill practitioner remains then there is also an sort of inquisition where other practitioners will ask the person who has become ill if they have any other spiritual material other than Dafa in their homes and are asked to throw it out.  If the practitioner becomes very ill there tends to be a shunning of the individual.  If the practitioner dies it is then declared that the person was never really a Falun Gong practitioner and that to much of the "Old Forces" interfered with that person.  Though, I have also seen practitioners come to FG with illnesses and after a time do get better.  Though I would argue that exercise, positive thoughts and social interaction where more likely the cure than anything else. --Otomo 15:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So Olaf, if you can grant me the benefit of the doubt and assume I am sincerely concerned about the absence of any public recognition of Dr. Lili Feng, would you please answer my original question: why hasn't the Falun Gong done a posting about her death on it's websites? --Tomananda 22:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * On a side note, Olaf says: "We know that qigong in general can cure diseases, but Falun Gong also emphasizes that such effects depend on the individual's own pursuits and purposes." Considering and working with a person's life choices and intent is a fundamental part of any traditional Chinese martial art, qigong or TCM training not to mention Western medical training ("Choosing to smoke cigarettes is bad for you"). It certainly isn't unique to FLG. --Fire Star 火星 13:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa is Cultivation Practice

 * Ah yes, more FL preaching. Hallowed are the Ori. --Yenchin 15:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa is cultivation practice.. not a group or anything.... you can practice Falun Dafa without ever meeting any other practitioner.. the sole reason practitioners came together and put a up a few websites like clearwisdom.net was because of the persecution happening in China.. so that kind-hearted people may get to know...

For one thing neither me nor Omid is blindly believing in anything.. it is unnecessary to believe or doubt when you understand.. belief and skepticism are just two words for saying "I dont understand it"... You dont say "I believe in the Newton's Laws".. Neither would you say "I am a Newton's Laws' Skeptic" .. you understand that it is just a model that serves as insight into motion at non-relativistic speeds..

Falun Dafa practitioners are not believing in anything .. we understand things objectively through our own experience and xiulian.. the Fa guides the practitioner in Xiulian.. right from the begining most people can feel the falun rotate.. There are Falun Dafa practice groups in Stanford, Princeton, Yale and Harvard.. do you really think all these people are blindly believing in something?

Samuel, Please go through any one of these nine lecture videos and then try to decide for yourself what Falun Dafa is.. Li Hongzhi's 9-day Lecture in Guangzhou, China

For one thing.. we are not "phobic" towards anybody. We cultivate compassion. Look at what the Bible and the what the Buddhist scriptures say on that. Was Jesus Christ "homophobic"? Was Gautama Buddha "homophobic"? You dont even remotely suspect what the state of mind of Jesus Christ or Buddha Gautama was. Do you really think they were ordinary people suffering from phobias?

Many people including my own mother have had their chronic illness cured, almost miraculously, on just starting to practice Falun Gong. Samuel, I wanted to talk to you many times.. I even thought of talking to you over messenger..your parents are not blindly believing in something.. Falun Dafa is not something ordinary..

Dilip rajeev 11:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Falun Gong is not something "ordinary". "Ordinary" doesn't involve the MURDER others. In better news though, User:Whitemanners has been indefinitely banned. Good riddance.Phanatical 15:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Phanatical, I see that you have been temporarily blocked too. What you say are nothing but words from the CCP propoganda, made up to justify their killing of thousands of innocents. You could go through the pages of Amnesty International, HRW or FDI ( http://www.faluninfo.net ) to know what has been happening in China and how the CCP has used propaganda to inundate hatred. You may want to go through this magazine..

http://www.faluninfo.net/Compassion5/Compassion5-v35-screen.pdf

here's an animation on the persecution that I just came across on a wikipedia user page..

http://media1.minghui.org/media/flash/2005/8/16/dove.swf

Dilip rajeev 17:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Dilip rajeev we know what the FAlun Gong is by reading Li's own words, so why don't you keep your POVs to yourself? --Kent8888 18:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No, clearly you don't. ;-) --Mcconn 07:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Without Li the Cosmos Wouldn't Exist
Here's yet another quote from Li about his role as savior during this period of Fa-rectification:

 * No being knows who I am. Yet without me, the cosmos wouldn't exist. The reason I have come here is to save all sentient beings amidst the Fa-rectification at a time when the colossal firmament of the cosmos is disintegrating. Touring North America Teaching the Fa (March, 2002)   http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2002/4/14/2002natourlect.html

Should we use this one in the introduction? --Tomananda 17:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Not if it isn't a reliable source. Unless you intention is to use this article as an attack page on the Falun Gong. --HResearcher 10:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Well it is a claim from LHZ, right? --Yenchin 13:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

See, there is a lot of context that goes behind the quote. See this quote by Master Li Hongzhi from Teaching the Fa at the Easter U.S. Fa Conference (1999) "As I’ve said, and I need to repeat it: I am sitting here as a human erbeing, so regard me as a human being. Just like you, I need to eat and sleep. Of course, every being has his origin. I also have my origin." -Li Hongzhi Dilip rajeev 15:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

 * How dishonest practitioners are! Li has repeadly said he and his Dafa are saving all sentient beings and I have provided many quotes to that effect.  To remind you, we are trying to write some text for the introduction which covers both Li and the Dafa's exclusive role in salvation combined with Fa-rectification.  This particular quote combines both of those concepts.  In response, a practitioner says I am trying to attack Li.  How can my quoting Li be attacking him?  And for you to provide a quote in which Li says he is a human being...so what?  Li has also told the western media he is just an ordinary human being.  But ordinary human beings don't have the supernatural powers that Li has.  So if there is a problem here, it is not mine...it is yours. And if there is a need for "context" then the context for this article would need to report that Li has said contradictory things about his own status.  However, Li has consistently said he and his Dafa are the only source of salvation during this period of Fa-rectification.  Sooner or later this material will need to be reported in the introduction of this article and the fact that practitioners continue to deny the truth of their master's teachings is offensive to me and the general public.  As I have said repeatedly, if you can't be honest about the core beliefs of Falun Gong...and that most definitely includes salvation by Li and his Dafa during this period ohe f Fa-rectification...then how can we trust you to be honest about anything else, including all those  improbable stories of organ harvesting, for example?  It's the credibility of the Falun Gong that is on the line here, not mine.  --Tomananda 17:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

We cultivate the truth. We are not "dis-honest". It seems "contradictory" to you only because you dont even remotely understand this science. A human is not a pile of molecules - thats just what your fourth grade biology text told you.

I dont know what you are driven by but I know that most people would rather die than spend all day supporting one of the most cruel persecutions in history and parrotting the lies invented to justify it. Have you ever thought how many families would have been devastated by your all-day efforts to cover-up the truth? Have you ever thought how many children would have died and how many families left in heart-wrenching pain?

Falun Dafa is cultivation practice. You may not be able to even understand what Fa- Recitification is or what the Fa is. You may think these are all made up. You may think its a good thing to spend all day attacking buddhahood cultivators... You may think that the law of karma is a joke.. but reality has nothing to do with what you start thinking or stop thinking.. every person has to suffer the consequences of his own actions.

No matter however much you lie the moment a good person reads the Fa or listens to the lectures he knows it is something profound. Even by just looking at the photo of a practitioner in meditation he is able to sense the goodness and compassion.

Dilip rajeev 10:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Dilip rajeev Cultivate the truth is what you claim but concealing the truth is what you do. Being deceptive is just one of the many problems with the Falun Gong.  This cult had cheated money from millions of Chinese people and killed fourteen hundred of them.  It systematically suppressed its critics’ free speech and even threatened the society with social disturbance.  The Falun Gong is a fraud and its ban a just action to protect people’s rights, social stability and lives.  The majority of Chinese in and outside of China support the ban!  And they are happy for ex-practitioners who are now living a normal life free from the manipulation and exploitation of Master Li.  --Samuel Luo 05:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * "To remind you, we are trying to write some text for the introduction which covers both Li and the Dafa's exclusive role in salvation combined with Fa-rectification." No, Tomanda. We're trying to agree on a couple sentences about the Fa-Rectification in the intro. There was never any agreement to talk about Li's exclusivity as a savior in the intro or that this should be related to the Fa-Rectification content. As for Mr. Li being just a man, Shakyamuni also said that he was just a man (this statement is quite well-known), but he walked on water, healed the ill, and performed many more miracles like these. Was he contradicting himself too? Just because you think something is contradictory doesn't mean it really is. If you try to think about in what ways these kinds of statements could possibly not be contradictory and coexist you might come to some new understandings or at least broaden your perspective. Mcconn 16:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You are still both fundamentally dishonest. Certain branches of Christianity have as their doctrine the idea that Jesus Christ was both human (if not, how could his suffering on the cross mattered?) and divine (if not, how could he offer salvation?)  Your dishonesty is in not saying something similar for Li. Instead, you keep accusing me of attacking him by quoting his words.  The honest response would be to say: yes, Li has said all these things, we do believe them and they are important concepts in Falun Gong. But we believe his divine status and human status are not contradictory because, etc.  Why don't you propose your own wording to convey these concepts in a clear and concise fashion?  It's not my job to reconcile apparantly contradictory statements of Li, but by the same token it is outrageous for you to continue to deny that Li has made these statements and that they relate, directly, to an understanding of Falun Gong.

 * As to having compassion for Falun Gong practitioners...I most certainly do. However, I do not believe, for example, that 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners had their organs harvested while they were alive in the basement of a facility in China which doesn't even have a basement and is co-owned by a Malaysian organization.  When I say you guys have a big credibility problem, I mean it. --Tomananda 17:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No, Tom.... Sujiatun is not the only sites. Unfortunately, there are lot of sites. In China, a cosmetic surgeon can do kidney transplantation. So many things may not be imaginable by people like you and me. Also Sujiatun has a lot of underground facilities which you and me are not clear. Please do not be judgemental. Lives are precious. Please stay cool headed. Please be open-minded. Fnhddzs 05:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * By pointing out that there are other sites, you seem to be conceding that the Sujiatun story is not true. Please don't lecture me about valuing human life. Your tactic is quite obvious and amounts to a false argument: "You cannot criticize us because some of our members are being persecuted or tortured in China. If you do criticize us, you do not value human life." This argument is total bull, and also insulting to me as a caring person.  Even if some of the claims of torture that the Falun Gong makes are true, the fact that others appear to be fabricated still needs to be pointed out.  At what point do people stop believing in your claims all together?  That's what's at issue here...your credibility as a group.  --Tomananda 17:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * We are still waiting for your comments on the Kilgour and Matas report. This issue is extremely serious. Kilgour is a former crown prosecutor and a former Secretary of State. I'd like to see you dispute his viewpoint.

 * In addition, criticism of Falun Gong doesn't mean approval of persecution. At least Samuel Luo has explicitly stated that he approves of it. Do you think it helps "your credibility as a group"? ---Olaf Stephanos 18:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * And I am still waiting for your comments to explain the absence of any public recognition of Dr. Lili Feng. You guys are so good at changing topics!  I point out that one particular report about 6,000 live organ harvestings in Sujiatum is not credible and you respond by saying, well why don't you read this other report from Canada instead and tell us what you think.  Let's make a deal!  I will read the Canadian report and respond with my honest opinions about what it says, providing you give me an honest answer to why the Falun Gong has not acknowledged the life and death of Dr. Lili Feng in the public sphere. Olaf, if you check in an earlier section above you will see that I've written a response to your allegations that I am cynically using Dr. Feng's death to make points against the Falun Gong.  --Tomananda 23:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * PS: In responding to my question about Falun Gong's public silence concerning Lili Feng's death, you need to cite something more than just an appeal to a practitioner's privacy. I do not expect any explanation whatsover concerning the cause of Lili Feng's death, but only an acknowledgment that she has died.  Surely that's the least her family can expect. I consider this to be a common decency that cuts across all religious ideologies and am frankly astounded that this has not been done.  One is used to seeing the accounts of practitioner deaths in China on Clearwisdom and other Falun Gong sites, why doesn't the same rule apply for the death of a practitioner who lived here in the United States?  Why the double standard?  --Tomananda 23:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Olaf Stephanos I do not support any persecution or torture, what I support is the ban of the Falun Gong which stopped this cult from deceiving and hurting more people. --Samuel Luo 00:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the discrediting of the Sujiatun allegations, I already mentioned how sketchy the US embassy officials tour was. After the being lead through the hospital by the hand, a U.S. embassy official said, "We did not find evidence showing this hospital's function exceeds that of a typical hospital." But the U.S. embassy official visited the hospital several weeks after the the crimes at the Sujiatun Concentration Camp were exposed, and the official on tour was accompanied by the hospital's leadership. Think about it: let's say a murderer kills someone, then he cleans up the crime site and disposes of the evidence. Later, the killer takes people to view the site to prove his innocence. Of course people will not get to see any evidence. In the amount of time the CCP had between the surfacing of the allegations and the show tour, they could cover up anything. Moreover, the surgical equipment used to remove Falun Gong practitioners' organs is not different from ordinary surgical equipment; how could a visitor tell whether this equipment had been used to remove organs or not? The official did not find evidence. This merely means the official did not see an organ harvesting procedures during that particular visit, but that does not prove that "the organ harvesting from living Falun Gong practitioners in secret concentration camps" never happened. If the CCP had nothing to hide then they wouldn't be so dodgy, and they would allow an independant investigation free from their control, but they won't. And instead they put our weak statements with empty accusations and twist the facts. You can take a look at some Canadian practitioners' response to the embassy's statement here --Mcconn 17:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you are under estimating the ability American officials. Frankly, between the words of US officials and the words of Falun Gong practitioners I rather believe these officials.  Master Li and some Falun Gong practitioners claim to have a third eye and possess the supernormal ability of Clairvoyance which allows them to see things tens of thousands of miles away.   Did you guys find out about this Organ Harvesting atrocity with this supernormal ability?  I am just curious.    --Samuel Luo 21:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope the official mediator comes soon, lets see if you dare to post your sarcastic little posts in front of him.--Andres18 20:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for mediation
Greetings everyone. Tomorrow is the day I will submit a request to the mediation committee for a formal mediator for us. These people have done this sort of thing before, and will hopefully help us get towards an article we all (or most of us) agree with. As in Requests for mediation, the request we submit must be neutral and simply point out that we have a problem, not what one or another group of editors believe the problem(s) is (or are). Please sign below (put a # sign before your signature) if you think this is a good idea. Thanks! --Fire Star 火星 12:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) Not only is this a good idea, I think it is the only way we will make any progress in this article.--Tomananda 17:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Yueyuen 23:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Mr.He 23:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes --  Миборовский  04:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Yes. And Firestar, could you reverse the Falun Gong article to this 22:28, 6 July 2006 version?  This version was the one that caused the edit conflict.  The version in place right now was modified by you under the request of ConventD.  Since we are requesting a formal mediation the article really should be restored to the earlier state, thanks --Samuel Luo 04:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why do you say this? The version in place right now reflects much better the consensus we had reached over that content. Mcconn 07:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no poll or consensus on this version. It was CovenantD’s decision. He was suppose to provide two passages, one sums up the words of practitioners and the other addresses the concern of other editors.  Since he left without the second passage to provide a balance, the article  should be reversed. . --Yueyuen 19:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The protected version isn't an endorsed version. We are (hopefully) very close to getting a new mediator, so we should wait and let that person decide. If a mediator doesn't materialise, then we go to the Arbcom for a binding settlement. --Fire Star 火星 20:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) Yes. I won't mind it. We will see. Fnhddzs 05:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Mcconn 07:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dilip rajeev 08:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Support -- Mediator. Boy, are these clowns going to be clubbed like a seal. I am going to dump out all of the books/articles from the Chinese media.  How do you want the upload? Thanks Chris Cj cawley 10:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Olaf Stephanos 17:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) Support.Kent8888 21:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 7) Support. Zealots and fanatics often let their emotions get the best of them.  Arguments based on Zealotry and fanaticism only make more problems.  Let cool heads prevail. --Otomo 20:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Requests for mediation/Falun Gong
It is official, please go to Requests for mediation/Falun Gong to agree or disagree with our mediation request. The article has been locked since 27 June, so IMO this is the best way forward. Simple agreement or disagreement is all that is necessary, any comments will be removed. --Fire Star 火星 14:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, please do not edit the request page other than to indicate agreement or disagreement. Any other edits will just be changed back. Just the issue that the article has been locked for over a month alone should get the ball rolling. The time to state our cases is when the mediator is listening, right now we are just counting heads. --Fire Star 火星 19:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We are less than 24 hrs. into the 7 day sign up period and we already have half the people we need to agree. This is good. --Fire Star 火星 03:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Two days left, Dilip rajeev, Omido and HResearcher have not yet responded to the request.
 * Dilip rajeev: Informed 14:07, 8 August 2006; last active 14:19, 13 August 2006.
 * Omido: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 14:12, 3 August 2006.
 * HResearcher: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 06:11, 7 August 2006.
 * I think it's safe to say that Dilip rajeev does not want any mediation attempt. -- Миборо в ский 04:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Woo
Why do you attack Falun Gong? Is it that, the last thing you want to see for the world is peace, meditation, healthy living, and improved moral standards?

Falun Dafa teaches kindess, Zhen-Shan-Ren, and there are strict xinxing (moral character) requirements. Suicide is forbidden.

The persecution against Falun Gong is not even a very important issue...everyone the world over knows it is true, it cannot be denied that Falun Dafa practitioners are suffering in China. What we are trying to clear from your brain and your thinking is that Falun Dafa practitioners don't kill themselves, and Falun Dafa is not harmful. It doesn't make people go crazy, it only stabalizes people, from the very core of their being. I have undergone a great change since I have begun to study Dafa... I even used to take drugs, but now I just simply strive to work hard, be kind, and improve my xinxing no matter the situation I encounter.

Samuel Woo,

Why would you believe in the wicked CCP ? They have killed 80 million Chinese people over their history... i.e. Cultural Revolution, Gang of Four, Persecution of Intellectuals, 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Buddhists, Persecution of Falun Gong. Can you deny that these things did not happen throughout history? So why would you believe in the CCP today? They have always lied, then tried to reform, kill, promote athieism and violence, lie some more, and then try to win back the public through shameful actions. Did you even know that 12 Million Chinese People have quit the CCP? It is a dying beast...20,000 more Chinese people quit everyday. The CCP is afraid of Falun Gong and the Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party. Have you read this article yet? It won a Pulitzer Prize for journalism. I suggest you read it soon.

http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/4/12/13/n746020.htm

The CCP has always been simply a gang of liars and crooks. Why are all the billionaires in China CCP officials, while everyone else is dirt poor? The tide is turning in the world and on the CCP... You should re-examine your thinking and take a look at the facts more carefully. Don't get lost in wordgames, look at the big picture.

The Heavens Eliminate the CCP.

Falun Dafa Hao! -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk • contribs)

I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who does not use a real name especially after that rant.

As for the CCP, you mean that they are just like most governments. How many people has the U.S. killed? For both good & bad reasons. You can start with our own civil war & go from there.

You are not going to silence Sam. You are not going to silence me either. Also, there are more & more of us each day.

Please explain to me what good FLG has done? Have they built a hospital? - No. (We should add a section for that) Donated to anything other than their own cause? - No. Destroyed families? - Yes. Caused the deaths of thousands? - Yes. Any rational person would get the idea.

I am in the middle of a multi year divorce and I still find money to help people in need. I have donated to The Tsunami, 9/11, Katrina, St Jude, Kid's school, etc. This is after all of the legal bills.

They preach self & death. Please explain to me how any of that is "good". Truth - their version of it. Compassion - Do this or die. Forebearance - I am going to hound you until you convert. No matter how stupid I think you are.

As for the CCP, their economy is booming, 1 million are being taken out of poverty a month, etc. You can think evil destructive thoughts all you want, but with numbers like those they are not going anywhere anytime soon. Russia fell because the economy collapsed. Communism was an afterthought.

Cj cawley 11:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Cj cawley
You said:

"I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who does not use a real name especially after that rant."

Response:

My name wasn't on the last post because I did not know how to put it.

You said:

"As for the CCP, you mean that they are just like most governments. How many people has the U.S. killed?  For both good & bad reasons.  You can start with our own civil war & go from there."

Response:

The US government has never killed 80 million innocent people. In fact though, I really could care less what kind of government China has, or what kind of government the US has, just as long as they are not killing innocent lives. People die in wars, this is a natural state of affairs that exists in the Cosmos. In fact, Master Li has said that wars come about as a result of Cosmic phenomenon, and are for the purpose of man repaying karmic debts. But the CCP is and has been for many years murdering innocent people without any just cause.

You said:

You are not going to silence Sam. You are not going to silence me either. Also, there are more & more of us each day.

Response:

If you think you are starting some kind of movement to squash Falun Gong, you are in trouble, and are on the wrong side of the sword.

I am not trying to silence anyone, I encourage you to speak.

I am trying to remove the poison and propaganda from your head that the evil CCP has implanted into it. The CCP has lied to you, and all of China, and all of the world. What kind of cause do you think you are signing up for, "there are more and more of us each day." You are traveling completely backwards if you continue with this train of thinking. The whole world loves Falun Gong. The US govnerment has awarded Falun Gong thousands of awards. My hometown of Lafayette, Louisiana in the United States has given Falun Dafa a proclamtion of award and has condemned the persecution in China. What are you talking about? I am not trying to silence anyone.

You said:

"Please explain to me what good FLG has done? Have they built a hospital? - No. (We should add a section for that) Donated to anything other than their own cause? - No. Destroyed families? - Yes. Caused the deaths of thousands? - Yes. Any rational person would get the idea."

Response:

Falun Dafa has not built hospitals or donated to other such causes because these are all actions filled with human intention. True cultivators of Falun Dafa seek nothing in the mortal realm, only consumation of their being.

Falun Dafa has destroyed no families, only the CCP has done such evils. Can you show me proof that Falun Dafa has caused thousands to die?

I instead can show you proof that millions of people have in fact obtained the Fa and cured themselves for terminal diseases. I can also show you undeniable proof of the persecution in China, and of people being tortured to death in China.

Any proof you can offer that Falun Dafa is bad will be for sure lies from the Chinese Communist Party. Why do you believe in the CCP? Didn't you just hear what I said? They have murdered 80 million Chinese people. Can you deny the Cultural Revolution, a movement by the CCP? Can you deny the Gang of Four? Can you deny the 1989 Tiananmen Square Revolution?

Why do you ignore these movements?

These are the CCP's history!

These were all caused by the CCP and in the end millions of Chinese people were murdered. The CCP is gang of crooks and criminals. I have with my own mouth and body spoken to Falun Dafa practitioners who have suffered persecution by the CCP. There are lives hanging in the balance in China, and you want to spread lies about Falun Dafa? What is your problem?

Your speaking out against Falun Gong is stupid and pointless, Falun Gong is only good.

We do not seek to "do good" among human beings and donate to charities. Falun Dafa is cultivation practice for reaching consumation. You are obviously a pretty good ordinary person, you have donated to many charities, but in the end, your actions are all filled with human intention and amount to nothing but blessings for your future life as a human. Cultivators in Falun Dafa seek nothing but to reach consumation, moving beyond the three realms, accomplishing Fa-Rectification, and saving sentient beings.

You said:

"They preach self & death. Please explain to me how any of that is "good".  Truth - their version of it.  Compassion - Do this or die.  Forebearance - I am going to hound you until you convert.  No matter how stupid I think you are.

Response:

What do you mean "Do this Or Die"? Master Li Hongzhi has forbidden suicide and murder.

Falun Dafa does not preach either, it is just a book. We do not have churches or sermons. I am not preaching to you, I am helping you to understand the Buddha Fa.

Falun Dafa teaches selflessness and altruism, and the protection and cherishment of sentient beings.

Also, I do not care if you practice Falun Dafa. I am not trying to convert you. Such a concept does not exist in Falun Dafa, you can only be assimilated to the Fa, there is not even a tangible organization for you to join, how could I convert you.

I do not care if you learn. I wish for you to, it is what's is best for your future, but ultimately, it does not matter to me.

Cultivation is a personal matter. I am not dying here to have you cultivate... I want you to know the truth about this practice so you can be saved and make into the future.

You said:

"As for the CCP, their economy is booming, 1 million are being taken out of poverty a month, etc. You can think evil destructive thoughts all you want, but with numbers like those they are not going anywhere anytime soon.  Russia fell because the economy collapsed.  Communism was an afterthought."

Response:

The CCP's economy is not booming. China's economy is booming. This has nothing to do with the CCP. The CCP is the most evil thing in the Cosmos and it is surely to be eliminated. I do not have evil destructive thoughts. I am not even trying to eliminate the CCP. The CCP has chosen elimination. The Chinese people are turning against the CCP, because they are learning the true history of it's past, and the truth about the persecution of Falun Dafa.

Daniel

Chinese democracy movement and Falun Gong
Let me introduce myself. I am a long time practitioner of Buddhism, and am well read in Asian classics. I read Mr. Li’s book when it was first published in 1999 and since then have attended an “Fa” conference as well as many study groups and exorcize meetings. I feel qualified to make a few statements.

Many of the things Mr. Li says it not all that different from what controversial Tibetan Lamas and Rinpoches say about being Gods and rectification of the Cosmic Law, curing illnesses, and saving the world. Though, one has to read these other books, listen to their lectures and even attend their meetings to know this. Since the bulk of Dafa practitioners are from mainland China and only know the Communist sponsored Buddhism, it therefore is not reasonable for the Dafa students to know these things or be aware that others have said the same as Mr. Li says.

Like the radical Muslims or controversial Tibetan groups, the majority of disciples are drawn to the group and teacher primarily because the political views and direction the teacher and the teachings state. It is apparent that Mr. Li is a critic of Communist philosophies and by brining up pre-communist cultural beliefs (local Chinese religion and superstitions) he was “bucking the system” so to speak.

The pro-democracy movement that was crushed by the Communist in 1989 just went underground till and emerged in the Chi-Gong movements, Falun Gong was only just one of many. The largest Chi-gong school was Zhong Gong, a school headed by Hong Bao Zhang, where they had eight postures of exercise, over 100 centered scattered all over china and thousands of small businesses that the disciples worked in. Like Falun Gong, Zhong gong supported a pre-communist political thought and offered a haven for the pro-democracy movement. Many of the criticisms Mr. Li has of Chi-Gong are clearly aimed at Zhong Gong. The use of these criticisms and malicious innuendo towards rival teachers is very traditional in Chinese martial arts. Like Falun Gong, Zhong Gong as well as the numerous other Gong Schools made claims to cure illnesses, achieve mystical powers and heavenly rewards. Though Falun Gong tends to use an “end of days” approach to imply immediacy and urgency to the teachings.

In 1999 when the Communist banned Falun Gong, Zhong Gong as well as many other schools where shut down as well. This is what is know by Falun Gong as “The persecution” In fact Zhong Gong as well as Falun Gong and so many other Chi Gong schools lost all of their centers and business to the Chinese Communist. The real purpose of the banishment may have been a land and business grab by Chinese communist officials as well as stamping out what they saw as a threat by the pro-democracy movement.

Today from what I see of Falun Gong is mostly a political movement to criticize the CCP in China and to bring the worlds anger upon them for the gross human rights abuses that occur there. Most of the Falun Gong disciples are involved with some sort of political work that they term “clarifying the truth”. Staffers in Washington DC have stated that the Falun Gong lobbyist are effective and well organized. The newspaper “The Epoch Times” has done well to publish the Falun Gong propaganda when the main stream media ignored them and created NTDTV as a way to beam the political message to China. The recent “Nine commentaries of the communist party” that just about all Falun Gong members hold up right next to the book “Zhuan Falun” clearly indicate that the movement is primarily political based using the spiritual foundations outlined by Mr. Li to give support and encouragement to the students to continue their political work. Even recently Mr. Li stated that just doing the exercises and meditations are not enough, one must “clarify the truth” and that is code for being involved in the groups political missions.

Many in the group flatly deny being political. Though they use a very narrow definition of what being political is. It is sort of a word game, one that I find childish and the sort of games you find scoundrels playing at.

Now as with all political movements and organizations that have a top down structure of power, where the corrupt and self-serving are attracted. Falun Gong is no exception to this problem, even in several lectures Mr. Li states that the bad actions of a few individuals has caused problems for him to no ends. Falun Gong even did have its schism in 1998 with Ms Wang in Hong Kong who declared that the Cosmic spirit left Mr. Li and came to her. The Hong Kong group was irreparable split and from what I know has not reformed to this day. I suspect such issues are still occurring and there are individuals who exploit the Falun Gong members as a marketing base, for free labor, and for their own gain, all in the name of “clarifying the truth”.

Today, I see Falun Gong struggles with an identity crises. Is it a political group or spiritual group? This issue tears at the hearts of many disciples leading many in to a mental catharsis, and a spiritual crisis. Some leave Falun Gong, others just stay at the fringes of the group not daring go further in.

Lastly, as Falun Gong does attract the corrupted because of its power scheme, it also attracts the desperate. Folks who are terminally ill or who suffering from chronic menial illnesses will find their way to such groups like Falun Gong. The terminally ill are desperate to do anything to live, and those who are mentally ill do desperate things (think Heavens Gate, Charles Manson, Jim Jones). Though, you will be hard pressed to find any group that lacks these types of people because these groups are comprised of humans with all the human flaws and conditions we have.

As for the things Mr. Li says and his claims. It is not at all uncharacteristic of those who engage in Chinese folk spirituality to do such. If you where to read the stories of some Tibetan Lamas and Rinpoches, you find that they embellish and fabricate their histories as well, even to degrees of absurdity. You also see this in Daoism with the embellishment of Lau Tzu and teachers after him as well as in Buddhism, where Ch’an teachers outright fabricate their lineage, and in some cases forge documents and create entire make believe temples, teachers and even Sutras.

As for those who fanatically defend Mr. Li, they do so for their own selfish reasons and purposes. Already Mr. Li has said that many of his disciples cannot accept criticism and that is a problem they have to deal with. He also told them that he can deal with his critics himself. Never the less, people will defend someone or something only for their own self engrandizement, sense of purpose and of course crushing their own doubts. It is easier to attack others doubts than to deal with your own and that is the sort of fanaticism that beings troubles to no end.

Ill continue watching this movement and see where it goes. I suspect Falun Gong/Falun Dafa will eventually pull itself apart as the purposes and goals become to contradictory to maintain under one house. --Otomo 19:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Zhong Gong http://www.apologeticsindex.org/z02.html --Otomo 19:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Edited to add links to zhong gong --Otomo 21:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand you are entitled to your opinion wether or not you have a vast experience in the field of Qigong. But lately posts like these become a little bit tiresome for editors because, as you may know, we all have our own opinions regarding Falun Gong and exposing it like this tends to create some controversy among the group since, for example, my opinion is very different from yours so if i posted a reply to your post, we would deviate from the task at hand which is to try and work on the article, and this is what usually happens, and its the reason why we need official mediation.--Andres18 20:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Donot Slander a true cultivation way
You apparently are just repeating CCP's tales... You dont seem to have the slightest clue on what you are talking about.

There are reasons why Falun Dafa cultivators clarify the truth about the persecution to people and that has nothing to do with "politics". When someone carries bad thoughts against a true teaching and slanders the Dharma isnt he accumulating terrible sins? Where is his being heading for?

Falun Dafa prcatitioners are letting the world know of the terrible and most inhumane persecution innocent people are facing in China.. hoping to bring an end to these unspeakable atrocities.. and you label that "politics"?

People like you think Buddhist scriptures are something for intellectual studies... you study it like some kind of philosophy and then you are "qualified" for whatever..

The Dalai Lama has said Falun Dafa is "very good".

Gautama Buddha himself prophesized that during this period of time the Great Law (Da Fa ) would spread far and wide.. A Sutra refers to the teaching by the name "the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )" and "the Thus Come One's sudden teaching"

''Alas! In the evil time''

Of the Dharma-Ending Age,

Living beings' blessings are slight,

It is difficult to train them.

Far indeed from the sages of the past!

Their deviant views are deep.

Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;

Many are the wrongs and injuries.

Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,

They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.

The doing is in the mind;

The body suffers the calamities.

There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.

If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],

Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )

- Gautama Buddha

(SE 62-63)

It is only natural that people who consider themselves "qualified" by reading some scriptures as if they were some made-up specualtive philosophy appear during in this period of time.. ... I request you to read this Sutra ..

 * Thus I have heard. At one time the Buddha was in the state of Kushinagara. The Tathagata was to enter Nirvana within three months and the bhikshus and Bodhisattvas as well as the great multitude of beings had come to the Buddha to pay homage to the Buddha and to bow in reverence. The World Honored One was tranquil and silent. He spoke not a word and his light did not appear. Worthy Ananda bowed and asked the Buddha, "O Bhagavan, heretofore whenever you spoke the Dharma, awesome light would naturally appear. Yet today among this great assembly there is no such radiance. There must be a good cause for this, and we wish to hear the Bhagavan's explanation."

 * The Buddha remained silent and did not answer until the request had been repeated three times. He then told Ananda, "After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities (see Five Turbidities), the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas they will pervert and destroy my teachings.... They will lack compassion and they will bear hatred and jealousy even among themselves.

 * "At that time there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will reverently and diligently cultivate immaculate virtue. They will be respected by all people and their teachings will be fair and egalitarian. These cultivators of the Fa will take pity on the poor, they will be mindful of the aged, and they will save and give counsel to those people they find in difficult circumstances. They will at all times exhort others to worship and to protect the sutras and images of the Buddha. They will do meritorious deeds, be resolute and kind and never harm others. They will forsake their bodies for others' benefit. They will hold no great regard for themselves but will be patient, yielding, humane, and peaceful.

 * "If such people exist, the hordes of demonic bhikshus will be jealous of them. The demons will harass them, slander and defame them, expel them from their midst and degrade them. They will ostracize the good monks from the monastic community. Thereafter these demons will not cultivate the Way-virtue. Their temples and monastic buildings will be vacant and overgrown with weeds. For want of care and maintenance their Way-places will drift into ruin and oblivion. The demonic bhikshus will only be greedy for wealth and will amass great heaps of goods. They will refuse to distribute any of it or to use it to gain blessings and virtue.

. ..

 * "When the lives of these demonic bhikshus come to an end their essential spirits will fall into the avici hells. Having committed the five evil sins, they will suffer successive rebirths as hungry ghosts and as animals. They will know all such states of woe as they pass on through aeons as numerous as sands on the banks of the Ganges River. When their offenses are accounted for they will be reborn in a border land where the Triple Jewel is unknown.

 * "When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no longer speak the Dharma. ( According to the Dao school and The Book of Changes this precisely is the period of reversal of yin and yang )

 * Those genuine Shramanas they see will be looked upon as dung and no one will have faith in them. When the Dharma is about to perish, all the gods will begin to weep. Rivers will dry up and the five grains will not ripen. Epidemic diseases will frequently take the lives of multitudes of people. The masses will toil and suffer while the local officials will plot and scheme. No one will adhere to principles. Instead, all people will be ever more numerous like the sands of the ocean-bed. Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two. As the aeon comes to a close, the revolution of the sun and the moon will grow short and the lifespan of people will decrease. Their hair will turn white at the age of forty years. Because of excessive licentious behavior they will quickly exhaust their seminal fluids and will die at a young age, usually before sixty years. As the life-span of males decreases, that of females will increase to seventy, eighty, ninety, or one hundred years.

 * "The great rivers will rise up in disharmony with their natural cycles, yet people will not take notice or feel concern. Extremes of climate will soon be taken for granted. . ..

 * "Then there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will gather together in an unprecedented assembly because they will have all been harried and pursued by hordes of demons. They will no longer dwell in the assemblies, but the Three Vehicles will retreat to the wilderness. In a tranquil place, they will find shelter, happiness, and long life. Gods will protect them and the moon will shine down upon them. The Three Vehicles will have an opportunity to meet together and the way will flourish. However, within fifty-two years the and the, the Standing Buddha Samadhi, will be the first to change and then disappear. The twelve divisions of the canon will gradually follow until they vanish completely, never to appear again. Its words and texts will be totally unknown ever after. The precept sashes of Shramanas will turn white of themselves. When my Dharma disappears, it will be just like an oil lamp which flares brightly for an instant just before it goes out. So too, will the Dharma flare and die. After this time it is difficult to speak with certainty of what will follow.

.I al. .

 * Worthy Ananda addressed the Buddha, "What should we call this Sutra and how shall we uphold it?"

 * The Buddha said, "Ananda, this Sutra is called . Tell everyone to propagate it widely; the merit of your actions will be measureless, beyond reckoning."

 * When the fourfold assembly of disciples heard this Sutra, they grieved and wept. Each of them resolved to attain the true Path of the Supreme Sage. Then bowing to the Buddha, they withdrew.

(SS I xiv-xvi)

<IP_ADDRESS> 04:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC) I cannot take a unsigned post with any credibility or even serious. I have never heard any Dafa practitioner say that the Dalai Lama has endorsed the exercises or anything Mr. Li says. If that was the case, I am sure I would have heard about this. You may want to rethink your proclamation on that issue.

As I stated, only scoundrels play “word games”. I am deeply sorry that the path of Falun Dafa lead you to this position. You may want to rethink your words, perhaps even read some of the stuff Mr. Li says about "Bad people doing bad things in his name". --Otomo 20:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I would think that as a practitioner of Buddhism you would have enough benevolence as to not insult someone else and call him "scoundrel" but im no one to judge you so ill stop right here, we can all make mistakes at any time but i do not think it was necessary for you to reffer to him like that even if he is really what you say he is. It may make other people take you less seriously seeing how you dont have proper respect for other users. In Falun Dafa people make their own way, everyones condition and situation is different. If you ask me what i think about this message i would say its definetly not necessary for the creation of the article, in fact, i didnt take the time to read it completely because i didnt see it going anywhere, i think the user who wrote this post should post what he has to say in a clear and resumed way. Sutras and other scriptures are interpreted differently by many people so i personally do not think it is appropriate to post them. Id like to know where are we going now with this mediation request, are we suppossed to wait or can we do some edits in the mean time?.--Andres18 20:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Question of Origins
In the main article in subsection “Origins”, it is stated:

Falun Gong (Falun Dafa) was introduced to the public by Li Hongzhi on May 13, 1992 in Changchun, China.(1) According to Li, Falun Gong is an advanced cultivation system in the "Buddha School" which, in the past, was handed down to chosen disciples and served as an intensive cultivation method that required practitioners with extremely high “Xinxing” (mind-nature; heart-nature; character) or “great inborn quality.”(2) Li taught the practice for three years and since then Falun Gong has also been promoted by practitioners themselves voluntarily.(3) Falun Gong quickly grew in popularity in China, and starting in 1996 Li has introduced the practice to other countries.(4)

I like to challage this statement. As by the points I will list:

1. Falun Gong (AKA Falun Dafa) is an offshoot of Zhong Gong, a ChiGong school in china that existed well prior or Mr. Li emergance on the scene, that uses eight positions in its exersizes, also claims to heal the sick and pronounces itself as the only true spiritual law.

2. Mr. Li was a Communist Army band member then a grain store clerk. Given that Mr. Li school of Chi Gong is so simular to Zhong Gong, it is likely Mr. Li was a casual student of Zhong Gong for a while till he broke off on his own group, hence his criticism on Modern Chi Gong.

3. This section does not give any time period of when he was to practice or who the are the diciples are. I suggest to strike this line completely since it cannot be supported.

4. This is very questionable because Zhong Gong grew in that period of time as well as many other chi gong schools. I think the line needs to be qualified with to reflect that Falun Gong was not the only school growing.

--Otomo 21:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

 * To begin with, would you provide a few sources for your allegations, as no original research will do. Could you also tell how the Falun Gong movements resemble those of Zhong Gong? If Falun Gong is just a spinoff of Zhong Gong, would you also elaborate a little on why Falun Gong received so many awards from the qigong experts and other authorities?

 * By the way, according to apologeticsindex.org, Zhong Gong was also founded in the beginning of the 1990s. I haven't read that much about it, but I have an impression that its teacher was bragging about showcasing supernormal abilities and such, while Li Hongzhi has stated that these things are not for public performances. Why do a lot of qigong masters put so much emphasis on commenting on this issue? I believe that the existence of supernatural abilities was verified in China by empirical science during the 1980s, and acknowledging them was essentially the dividing line between two scientific schools of qigong studies.

 * You know, qigong is not just some arbitrary waving of hands where any exercise will do. Whatever you think of Falun Gong, recognizing qigong as a valid field of human body research - not some imaginary game - is the least you can do. If you really want to dispute Falun Gong's way of putting it, you'd better provide a theory for why it works in the first place. Maybe you want to provide a naturalistic, profane explanation. Only then we have reached the paradigmatic line of demarcation. ---Olaf Stephanos 08:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Falun Gong resembles Zhong Gong in many ways, but lets look at one aspect of it, "The Exersize". Zhong Gong uses eight postures in its exersize while Falun Gong uses five postures.  I think it is worth noting on the Falun Gong page that is does resemble Zhong Gong, a popular school in china that had over 100 practice centers and thousands of businesses.  I think to fail to mention that moves away from the NPOS and does not serve the truth to the readers as where Falun Gong came from.

 * The point of all this discussion to to get to the truth, present Falun Gong in a NPOS position with NO ORIGIONAL RESEARCH or ARTICALS OF FAITH as facts. The origions of Falun Gong, its history and its current mission on the wikipedia pages tend to be murky and highly edited in my opinions.  I think it is fine to present Falun Gong as a Chigong school, but I think some of the statements made about it are incorrect, quotes are taken out of context or even stolen about a different chigong school.  For example the quote of 100 million practitioners was about the number of all chigong practitioners in china, not just Falun gong.  It is these sorts of things that tarnish the character of Falun Gong and just brings up questions about integrity about Falun Gong is.

 * I also think it is worth remembering that these pages are is not a debate on Falun Gong, but rather how to present Falun Gong on Wikipedia.
 * --Otomo 18:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You avoided all my questions. Saying that Zhong Gong has eight exercises, while Falun Gong has five, doesn't tell anything about their similarity or differences. No original research means that you have to find verifiable sources for your claims; please give us a reference to an article or a study about the similarities of Falun Gong and Zhong Gong.

 * The quote about 70 (to 100) million Falun Gong practitioners is from China's State Sports Administration, as reported by the New York Times before the persecution began. Afterwards, CCP has been downplaying Falun Gong's significance in the Chinese society. I also remember reading that there are approximately 200 million qigong practitioners in China, so it is possible that one third to a half of all Chinese qigong practitioners used to practice Falun Gong in the end of the 1990s.

 * I agree that the article sucks right now, but that's why we are looking for a mediator. ---Olaf Stephanos 19:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Give me a break Olaf, the Chinese government has never said anything about the Falun Gong having 70 million members in China. That figure was given by a practitioner working in a governmental organization.  The Falun Gong has also claimed to have 30 million members outside of China; where are they?  --Samuel Luo 20:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Give me a source, Samuel, indicating that the figure was given by a practitioner working in a governmental organization. It's funny you've never done that. Hmm... or could it be only you who says this?

 * I also remember seeing some websites say that there are 100 million practitioners "worldwide". They are probably using the higher estimate, "almost 100 million", for China, but personally I think this information is outdated. "The Falun Gong", "members"... it's all your misleading centralist discourse. I agree that the individuals who have published such figures should pay more attention to the post-1999 reduction in numbers (because of the persecution). Of course, none of us knows how many practitioners there are. Nobody I've met has ever talked about 30 million outside of China. ---Olaf Stephanos 03:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Origions dispute part 2
In the main article in subsection “Origins” second paragraph, it is stated:

At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a Qigong master. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the Chinese version of his book, Zhuan Falun, before 1996, it is claimed that Li(1) was guided by more than 20 masters of both the Buddhist and Taoist cultivation ways since the age of four. Li’s first teacher introduced him to the cultivation of truth, compassion and forbearance (zhen, shan, ren). At age of eight, he acquired supernatural powers. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. The biography(2) also claimed Li has discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.[6]

I like to dispute the Origins, second Paragraph by the following points: (1) “it is claimed that Li” needs to be changed to “Mr. Li writes about himself” as it is stated now, it is not clear that Mr. Li himself is making these claims and that no third party is making them.

(2) please change “biography” to “autobiography” since “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” is in fact written by Mr. Li himself.

--Otomo 22:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Again, Otomo... sources please? The biography was not written by Mr. Li. Mcconn 06:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Two things
Why was my book deleted? It's a real situation with real people, not a case study. Also, we should add other similar cases. I know of at least one. There are probably more.

We should add a section about the FLG split. There should be articles about the woman in Hong Kong. I had forgotten about that and it's a good point.

Cj cawley 00:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

In response to "Daniel"
I have not seen another website post deaths of people quite like www.clearwisdom.net. Death is not a good thing. The general theme is: They harmed Dafa & died a horrible death. Chapter & verse. Time & time again. We should also consider a section in the article for this. To be fair, we should include the deaths that the CCP has attributed to FLG.

Well, according to the ex, I have harmed Dafa. I survived 9/11, Flight 587 (crashed on both sides of the house - literally), etc.

<IP_ADDRESS> 22:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Can you identify yourself? It sounds like your ex wife is a Falun Gong practitioner, so you can possibly provide some addtitional insight into how the Falun Gong breaks up families. Practitioners deny this is the case, so your input might help.  --Tomananda 02:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No doubt he's the good ol' Cj cawley. ---Olaf Stephanos 09:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Sorry, I was not logged in. Thanks Olaf. Cj cawley 11:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Olaf: You never responded to my question in the Without Li the Cosmos Wouldn't Exist posting above. --Tomananda 06:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Tomananda, I've been really busy, and your message is worth time and devotion. I'll try to deal with it later this week. ---Olaf Stephanos 08:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

new photograph
I have a new photograph which I would like to add to the article when it becomes unprotected. – Kaihsu 20:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Another good idea
We should have the pictures of all deaths related to FLG. We can put the CCP material right next to the FLG material. That's also fair. This way, we can get a full body count. Truth, compassion & forebearance is probably up more than 3,000 by now. Cj cawley 10:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not Such a Good Idea
I do not know about all of you, but actually, I am very tired of talking about the persecution against Falun Gong, I am tired of reading www.clearwisdom.net reports of deaths, and I am tired of seeing pictures of Falun Gong practitioners tortured to death. It is good to expose the persecution and eliminate the evil, but who wants to see those pictures all the time anyway? All of those practitioners who are still being tortured in China simply have not been able to free themselves from the evils den. We should help them of course when possible, but it seems to me they are mostly just simply enduring the evil's persecution as far as I can tell. They need to step up with their righteous thoughts to escape the persecution. Master Li has even said that even some new practitioners have developed supernormal powers, they can use these to escape the evil's persecution.

As far as I know, that evil political party doesn't even have any material worth looking at. It made some videos, and then Falun Dafa practitioners ripped them apart with anaylsis and rational thinking, exposing all of the loopholes and lies.

Case in point, http://www.falsefire.com/index1.htm

Who has seen this video yet? The Tiananmen Square Self-Immolation against Falun Dafa was the biggest hoax of the century. It was like a bad April Fools joke.....

The False Fire video is full of fallacies and speculation. --Yenchin 05:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

A Question
What about if only users who are signed in can use this page, and if a user abuses this privilege, he would be reprimanded, possibly unable to edit other protected sites, or maybe banned? Jesus geek 16:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, to answer to your question, i believe a punishment such as banning or being reprimanded, just like you suggested, should be applied to posters who repeatedly break the Wikipedia code of conduct. For example, engaging in personal attacks (quoting directly from wikipedia):

"Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme"

Or also creating an environment of "incivility" by:

"Calling someone a liar, or accusing him/her of slander or libel. Even if true, such remarks tend to aggravate rather than resolve a dispute."

Which, even though its a petty example of how to create an environment of incivility, if you do it repeatedly and add a few posts here and there like "We dont need yor fancy answers" (reffering to FG editors). "How dishonest practitioners are!" Or calling someone a "scoundrel" or saying FG practitioners are "corrupted" and accusing them of "being deceptive". Also saying Falun Gong practitioners are "murderers", categorizing our arguments as "silly" and "false" "a rant" oh and also reffered to as "bull..." go figure. Then it becomes a rather significant matter. As you can see, there have been quite a few of those examples lately. What is even extremely ironic to the point of being sarcastic and maybe even a little funny is that after all this, they demand us to "refrain from personal attacks"...right.

Im not saying FG practitioners behaviour is perfect or anything, we also make our mistakes of course, but there is a very significant difference between both behaviours, at least we dont go around posting all the time calling them liars, or "people who conceal the truth" and dismissing their own views and opinions because "They are FG practitioners" and "FG has a big credibility problem" and cataloguing it as pure lies. Even though there are two different parties involved in the making of this article, there should be some neutrality, going to the extreme (being extreme pro-FG or extreme anti-FG) isnt helping at all. If we FG editors believe a critic is not reporting Mr. Li's quotes appropriately and we all agree on this, then it is our point of view and our words should be listened too. Then after we give them our opinion of what they propose, if they listen to our point of view then we will definetly consider reaching an agreement through dialogue. The same goes the other way.

I understand any of the editors can get frustrated, wether the critics or the FG editors, but that doesnt mean almost each and every of the critics replies need to reflect that frustration through a direct offense against the other party. If you notice the environment we have right now on the talk page, it is all about "Fighting the evil cult of FG". There is no respect among the editors and this way we cannot work on the talk page, and this is the real reason why we urgently need an official mediator. But i strongly suggest we modify our behavior wether the mediator arrives or not so that we can make at least as much progress as we can on the article before or until he/she arrives.

If we respect each others point of views and arguments whenever we disagree with them and discuss it while keeping a cool head im sure we can all reach to an agreement on anything and perhaps there wont even be a need for official mediation, but to me, right now, considering the situation, id say it seems rather utopic. So then is banning or reprimanding the only solution to this problem if the official mediator doesnt arrive?.--Andres18 06:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Last call for Requests for mediation/Falun Gong!!!
We are still missing one or two of the named involved editors for Requests for mediation/Falun Gong. If any of you know the missing people, please contact them. If everyone isn't on board, the request will be automatically rejected! They have to sign by tomorrow or we start over again. The page could be locked for a much longer time as a result. --Fire Star 火星 16:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Copy-pasted from above:
 * Two days left, Dilip rajeev, Omido and HResearcher have not yet responded to the request.
 * Dilip rajeev: Informed 14:07, 8 August 2006; last active 14:19, 13 August 2006.
 * Omido: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 14:12, 3 August 2006.
 * HResearcher: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 06:11, 7 August 2006.
 * I think it's safe to say that Dilip rajeev does not want any mediation attempt. And I think, that you made a mistake by adding any Tom Dick and Harry to the list of involved people.
 * -- Миборо в ский 18:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Dilip has signed up. But I doubt the other two would. -- Миборо в ский 19:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the field was so confused that I only picked the people who were active on the talk page for the week before, which is how Olaf got missed. I agree the next request should be a lot smaller. --Fire Star 火星 20:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I suggest to not make our own conclusions. Article about Falun Gong can be really a short one. If the article should be just about what the Falun Gong is, then quote just some apparent things (like "have 5 exercises and main book Zhuan Falun") offer links to all Falun Gong books and let reader make his own understanding.

 * That doesn't work. If you read through the discussion archive, you will figure out the complexity of the issues surrounding this article. ---Olaf Stephanos 13:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

And I don't think people are supposed to add themselves to the involved party list... -- Миборо в ский 02:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * And i dont think any editor is more important than any other on this project in order to "deserve" being placed on the list or to "authorize" the adding of more members to the involved party list.--Andres18 05:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it's something called courtesy. If you think you deserve to be placed in the "involved parties" list, message Fire Star to do it. He filed the RfM, so he changes who's on there. -- Миборо в ский 05:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think im being courteous enough as to save him the trouble to do it.--Andres18 05:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

A Tail of Two Masters
July, 2000 - Splits Emerging

One year after Beijing Communist Party banned Falungong as "an evil cult", the spiritual movement outside the mainland appears to be splitting into factions.

A number of overseas followers are now supporting Hongkong-based Peng Shanshan as the sect's new master, replacing Li Hongzhi, who lives in New York.

Quoted from the Hong Kong Sect: We have only one great universal law and one master.

But the master can accommodate in different physical bodies, Ms Tao Hua Lian, a Chinese-Australian disciple of Ms Peng, told the Hongkong iMail on Friday.

''At the early stage, the master has shown up in (the physical body of) Li Hongzhi. Now Master Peng Shanshan is born,'' said Ms Tao, adding that Ms Peng declined to be interviewed.

Hong Kong, the former British colony, reverted to Chinese rule in 1997, and whoever controls the group there has a chance of influencing Falun Gong's development in the rest of China.

The assertion that the woman, Belinda Pang, 37, is the Lord of Buddhas has led to more of a cat fight than catharsis for the movement, which went underground on the mainland after Beijing banned the group a year ago. Mr. Li, who is now based in New York, and Ms. Pang have traded accusations on competing Web sites.

The dispute began on May 11 -- celebrated as Buddha's birthday and, Mr. Li says, his birthday, too, though birth records in his hometown in China show otherwise. Ms. Pang, a tireless organizer in the Hong Kong chapter, organized a march through the city. Although only 24 people turned up, along the way most of them said they had experienced a vision of Ms. Pang seated in outer space while angels flew around her plucking flowers and dropping them to Earth. The flowers turned into raindrops when they hit the skin, said Mary Qian, one of those who said they saw the image.

Mr. Li was quick to denounce Ms. Pang on the official Falun Gong site, www.minghui.ca. (Please note that Mr. Li says some vicious things about Ms. Prang in his Advance Teachings lectures that is published. [link to spcific writings needed]

Ms. Pang, who has drawn 30 hard-core believers, said all recent messages from Mr. Li were fakes, because he has left to quietly watch practitioners and people in the world from a cliff somewhere in the United States, where he is pictured in his last photo posted on the Falun Gong Web site, in January

Prior to the split, Ms. Prang lead the Hong Kong Falun Gong group, tirelessling organizing and spearheading many of the groups events.

Media links about the split

Straits Times (Singapore), July 30, 2000

New York Times, Aug. 3, 2000

[http://www.falundafa.com.hk Falun Gong HK site ] Offline since the split. No Honk Kong Falun Gong group has been able to form since the split.

--Otomo 17:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, i do not think this material should be used in the creation of the article because the aricle reffers to Falun Gong itself. Any other splittings or attempts to form a "faction" out of falun gong should not be considered since these parties who claimed they "have a new master" and so on, cannot be associated with Falun Gong in any way. And i think so because they may have their claims but Mr. Li who is the founder of FG has not authorized any splitting of FG or the creation of a new faction in anyway. So regardless of what they say, they have nothing to do with FG. And what this person in Taiwan claims of Mr Li going quietly to the mountains seems to be rather wrong since Mr. Li still goes to the Fa conferences in USA and presents himself to speak about FG.

Also, dont you think adding details like this will make FG topic on wikipedia waaaay to large? If you think its really pertinent to dedicate a page or a subsection of any page to speaking about this claims from someone in Taiwan then i believe we could reach to an agreement, but i would like to see what writing you have for it so all FG editors can look at it, give their opinions and perhaps propose some edits. What is your opinion?--Andres18 07:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pages added that relate to Falun Gong
Added page for Peng Shanshan We should create a page for Falun Gong Schism. --Otomo 17:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Added page for Sima Nan an outspoken Chinese critic of Falun Gong and Mr. Li Hongzhi --Otomo 18:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I took a look at these pages and Im sorry but i must say they are not neutral at all, specially the writing on it. For example, on the page of Peng, FG is reffered to as a "cult" or "sect" and we FG practitioners do not agree with this denomination. perhaps links to the critics pages could be included along with pro FG pages too but making wiki pages exclusively for critics seems a bit too much dont you think so?--Andres18 07:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi and the patent
I am researching this issue as reported by Peoples Daily Clumsy fraud, harmful heresy: PD commentary

I think that this issue needs to be explored and included on the pages.

--Otomo 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Im sure you can understand that it is pretty hard for me to take this article seriously since, id dare to say its to the outmost extreme of even being fanatically partialized. Still, id like to make a few comments on it: I do not believe it is possible that this report of Mr. Jing Zhanyi could have been published just like that, and even less athorized by Mr. Li since he strictly forbid the publication of any other documents regarding FG that are not written by him or examined thoroughly and approved by him and there is no evidence that he signed the approval for the publication of these document.

It is almost impossible for me to believe he could have authorized the spreading of this document that reflects this students "personal experience" or we would also be seeing many of these type of documents from different practitioners going back and forth among many peoples hands.i think It is even against the principles of Falun Gong to do such a thing because if you publish documents of practitioners claiming they "opened their eyes of heaven" in just a month of practice and things like that, this could generate attatchments on FG practitioners and damage their own personal cultivation.

I believe the only moment where there has been any talk about practitioners personal experiences is at the Fa conferences which are destined for Falun Gong practitioners to share their experiences and help each other on their process of cultivation. Thus, i do not think it should be included in the pages. Besides i think it is not helpful to post anti-FG stories like this that dont really seem to have enough substantial evidence to back them up and that lessen the netrality of the topic ( which is FG) that we want to expose to the public who may not have any knowledge about it.--Andres18 07:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi Wiki Page
This page was completely made by the critics, how can there be any neutrality over this? also, the "Patent" subsection on the page which was "suggested" on this talk page, was actually added to that page too and nobody is doing anything about it. That means if you have the right to edit pages without consensus from both parties, then perhaps i feel i also have the right to do some edits on that page dont i?. Alright, ill "suggest" some neutral edits and since i want to respect the code of conduct from wikipedia (unlike you), ill let you give me your opinion on these edits, then we'll discuss about it, modify so that both parties can be satisfied about the result and then ill post it on the talk page, im sure there will be no problem in doing so. If you make edits without consulting all the involved editors, then think im being kind enough to ask for your opinion and some neutrality when posting my edits.

Apparently, i believe the critics objective is to make Mr. Li look like someone who is telling lies to everyone of their practitioners claiming to be a "divinity" and got caught in the process. This can be clearly seen since the second paragraph of introduction:

"But as reported by the Chinese government he was born on July 7, 1952; he “changed his date of birth to make it coincide with the birthday of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, in an attempt to show that he was the reincarnation of Sakyamuni,” the government claims".

If you are quoting the government made a direct accussation towards Mr. Li for "attempting to show that he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni" and even though we all know he never even said anything like it, then i think you will have to include Falun Gong's opinion on this matter. Its very non neutral that you make a sentence saying "FG claims he was born on this day, but the government claims he was born on this other day because he is trying to show he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni" This last added little detail already takes of the neutrality of the article. If you want to post it, then you let us voice our opinion on the matter.

1. I would suggest "Whereas Falun Gong practitioners claim Mr. Li has never mentioned he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni and that the Chinese Government tried to mess with the birth dates to try to discredit him" Well...i guess its a start, id like to know what other FG editors think about this and how we can modify this suggestion to make it more accurate. From the critics id like to know if you agree with this suggestion and it subsecuent modifications or if you decide to erase that added detail on the above mentioned paragraph.

2. "No one seems to know who Master Li is and his followers conceal information about him, noted Nina Willdorf from Boston Phoenix. “Talk to several local practitioners, and certain patterns emerge." What in the world is this? directly accussing practitioners of lying and concealing information with no substantial evidence AND in a wikipedia article? This is outrageous and offensive, tell me now where is there any neutral point of views? where is the falun gong practitioners side on this part of the article? there is none, its only made by the critics. If edits such as the creation of this Wiki page are not made in consensus then its a violation of the rules, NPOV, how many times has this been said?. This sentence will be eliminated, if you do not want it eliminated then give us a really, really and i mean really good reason not to do it.

"No one knows much about Master Li's past or present, and followers are reluctant to discuss even what little they do know about him.”[3] Falun Gong’s official website, Clearwisdom.net, introduces the Master with a saintly sketch:". "Saintly sketch" this is so cynical and sarcastic that it even sounds a bit funny, you know, i think its pretty bold of you to go around creating these kind of wikipages and not only making them partialized but even attacking FG practitioners and insulting us directly and not happy with that, you add a large dosis of sarcasm and irony. In a personal note: The fact that you spoke with some practitioners and they seemed reluctant to speak about what they know from Mr. Li doesnt mean any practitioner you come up to will answer the same way, thats generalizing way too much, it even sounds unreasonable and implies we are in some way embarassed or ashamed to speak about our own practice and we conceal the truth about it, thats a very wrong judgement. This other sentence will also be eliminated, of course, but if you want, we can leave the part that says "No one knows much about Mr. Li's past or present" if you really want to say we are reluctant to speak about him then directly make it a claim from the critics and let us answer to it with our input. Things have to be fair.

"According to this biography at the age of four Li began his decades-long training that prepared him to be the greatest Master of all time" You know, i just read the biography and there isnt anywhere that says he was preparing himself to be the "greatest master of all time" so i will suppose this is another of your neverending sarcastic remarks.

"He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking “Nobody can see me!” The other two supernatural abilities the young Master acquired were controlling others’ movements by thoughts and teleportation—he could move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone." According to the biography, Mr. Li acquired many supernatural powers that do not limit themselves to just "controlling people's thoughts" and "Being invisible". Also, even though the biography states he could become invisible just by thinking it, adding to your paragraph that he could "become invisible simply by thinking "nobody can see me" sounds sarcastic too and ill tell you why: This sentence i just reffered to was written this way in order to contextualize one of Mr. Li's experiences in the environment of his childhood. So, since we are reffering to this biography in a more formal way and we are not intending to contextalize any element on our paragraph to create a proper environment in order to understand such experiences, i dont think it should be added this way or else it does tend to sound a bit sarcastic if you ask me.

I would suggest this quote "...at the age of eight, the young adept attained many supernatural powers" as an explanation to this matter. However, if youd like to include some of those stories and complicate things by going into detail about the supernatural powers then i think FG editors would have to explain their views on how supernatural powers exist and their logic according to FG in order to provide a proper, more neutral understanding that could show the reader why these stories have appeared on

title: Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 14