text:
Talk:David Baldacci

David Baldacci Criticism
What color are the vermin in Baldacci novels?

WILL ROBIE, UNABLE TO SLEEP, stared at the ceiling of his bedroom while the rain pounded away outside. His head was pounding even more, and it would not stop when the rain did. He finally rose, dressed, put on a long slicker with a hood, and set out from his apartment in Dupont Circle in Washington, D.C. Three men in their early twenties approached from the other side of the street. Robie had already seen them, sized them up, and knew what they would demand of him. There were no cops around. No witnesses. He did not have time for this. He did not have the desire for this. He turned and walked directly at them. “If I give you some money, will you leave?” he asked the tallest of the three. This one was his size, a six-footer packing about one hundred and eighty street-hardened pounds. The man looked at his two comrades. “Make it a deuce and you’re on your way, dude.” “I don’t have a deuce.” “So you say. Then you gonna get jacked right here.” He went to draw the gun, but Robie had already taken it from his waistband and pulled down his pants at the same time. The man tripped over his fallen trousers. The man on the right pulled a knife and then watched in amazement as Robie first disarmed him and then laid him out with three quick punches, two to the right kidney, one to the jaw. Robie added a kick to the head after the man smacked the pavement. The third man did not move. The tall man exclaimed, “Shit, you a ninja?” Robie glanced down at the Sig he held. “It’s not balanced properly and it’s rusted. You need to take care of your weapons better or they won’t perform when you want them to.” He flicked the weapon toward them. “How many more guns?” The third man’s hand went to his pocket. “Drop the jacket,” ordered Robie. “It’s raining and cold,” the man protested. Robie put the Sig’s muzzle directly against his forehead. “Not asking again.” The jacket came off and fell into a puddle. Robie picked it up, found the Glock. He flicked the weapon toward them. “How many more guns?” The third man’s hand went to his pocket. “Drop the jacket,” ordered Robie. “It’s raining and cold,” the man protested. Robie put the Sig’s muzzle directly against his forehead. “Not asking again.” The jacket came off and fell into a puddle. Robie picked it up, found the Glock. “I see the throwaways at your ankles,” he said. “Out.” The throwaways were handed over. Robie balled them all up in the jacket. He eyed the tall man. “See where greed gets you? Should have taken the Benny.” “We need our guns!” “I need them more.” Robie kicked some water from the puddle into the unconscious man’s face and he awoke with a start, then rose on shaky legs. He did not seem to know what was going on, and probably had a concussion. Robie flicked the gun again. “Down that way. All of you. Turn right into the alley.” The tall man suddenly looked nervous. “Hey, dude, look, we’re sorry, okay? But this is our turf here. We patrol it. It’s our livelihood.” “You want a livelihood? Get a real job that doesn’t involve putting a gun in people’s faces and taking what doesn’t belong to you. Now walk. Not asking again.” They turned and marched down the street. When one of the men turned to look back, Robie clipped him in the head with the butt of the Sig. “Eyes straight. Turn around again you get a third one to look through in the back of your head.” Robie could hear the men’s breathing accelerate. Their legs were jelly. They believed they were walking to their execution. “Walk faster,” barked Robie. They picked up their pace. “Faster. But don’t run.” The three men looked idiotic trying to go faster while still walking. “Now run!” The three men broke into a sprint. They turned left at the next intersection and were gone."

National Ambassador?
What exactly is "National Ambassador" in this context? I do not suppose he is an Ambassador in the "diplomat" sence of the word, and I know that ambassador is also used in many other contexts. But since National Ambassador is wikilinked in this article, parhaps we should create an article to explain what this usage of ambassador pertains to. --Ezeu 19:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Was up hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

about Split second : an audiobook
There is also an audiobook narrated by Ron McLarty on eMusic: http://www.emusic.com/audiobooks/book/Split-Second-MP3-Download/10006661.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

books
david, i have read every one of your books and cannot put them down. I am now reading Guilty, your latest one. You will have to write more as I just love them and find them such easy reading. thank you. bernice nowack email address<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Please write back

\\ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:181:C102:B622:990C:7428:256D:CA15 (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on David Baldacci. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120523224456/http://memoirs.gohiblog.com/david-baldacci-authors-biography/ to http://memoirs.gohiblog.com/david-baldacci-authors-biography/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120517055211/http://www.nationalmssociety.org/online-community/personal-stories/david-baldacci/index.aspx to http://www.nationalmssociety.org/online-community/personal-stories/david-baldacci/index.aspx

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:20, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:David Baldacci


text:
Talk:Dave Hollins

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Dave Hollins. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121012155734/http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20030521&content_id=331050&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi to http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20030521&content_id=331050&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 11:52, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Dave Hollins


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Parbati Rai (dancer)

The result was delete. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:09, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Parbati Rai (dancer)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Google search reveals no independent (third-party) coverage. Does not satisfy creative notability guidelines or general notability guidelines. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:05, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 22:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 22:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nepal-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 22:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Bobherry Userspace  Talk to me!   Stuff I have done  20:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 02:31, 27 September 2017 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete lack of 3rd-party coverage.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:59, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * also, see duplicate at Parbati Rai please... --Hsarrazin (talk on wd) 09:24, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Optakeover (U)(T)(C) 04:53, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete - searches did not turn up enough to show they pass WP:GNG, and doesn't meet WP:ENTERTAINER. There is a duplicate of this article, Parbati Rai, which also needs deletion.  Onel 5969  TT me 13:06, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete (suggest speedy) purely as a duplicate of Parbati Rai.  PK  T (alk)  13:37, 8 October 2017 (UTC)


text:
Kern Manor

Kern Manor (also Lacherne, 11th century; Kurne, 13th century) was a manor house in the parish of Brading on the Isle of Wight.

History
Kern was held before the Conquest by Earl Harold, and in 1086 by the king. It seems afterwards to have passed to the Aula family, and part was given by Roger de Aula to the Knights Templars. His gift was confirmed by Ralph Mackerell and apparently augmented by Robert Russell. The Templars' holding was attached to the preceptory of South Baddesley, and on its suppression in 1558 Kern was granted to Winchester College. Another holding at Kern belonged at the end of the 13th century to the chaplains of Barton Oratory, and passed with their other estates in 1439 to Winchester College, who as of 1912 were owners of the whole manor. The house, a simple structure of the 16th–17th century, lies under the down, just to the north of Alverstone, and is now divided up into two cottages.

title: Kern Manor


text:
Steve Silverman

Steve Silverman may refer to:

 * Steven Silverman (born 1954), lawyer, Director of the Montgomery County, MD Department of Economic Development, 2009-2014
 * Stephen M. Silverman (born 1951), entertainment journalist and nonfiction writer

title: Steve Silverman


text:
Talk:Paleobiota of the Solnhofen Formation

More invertebrates
From the appendix of Solnhofen: a study in Mesozoic palaeontology (Barthel et al) I can see the page is deficient in these areas:
 * Molluscs
 * Bivalves 7 genera
 * Gastropods 5 genera
 * Cephalopods, many genera, especially Squid & cuttlefish and Ammonites
 * Crustaceans many genera of Decapods and Reptantians
 * Insects, many genera of Odonata and Beetles
 * Echinoderms, many genera other than Crinoids

Even amongst reptiles the list falls far short of what is known:
 * Lizards, 5 genera
 * Rhynchocephalians, 5 genera
 * Crocodiles, 7 genera

Others must have noticed this; my guess is that the format for the list is too cumbersome, and deters others from adding the details. As it is, the list gives a seriously incomplete picture of the fauna.

Macdonald-ross (talk) 14:28, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Name
Should this page not be called "Paleobiota of the Solnhofen Limestone"? --TimTheDragonRider (talk) 16:00, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Links
Tharsis Dubius is linking back to Tharsis, a volcano on mars, to my knowledge there is no wiki page for T. dubius. CarrionQueer (talk) 23:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)


text:
Revers

Etymology
.

Noun

 * 1) lapel; revers part of a garment folded back, especially on the front of a men’s jacket

title: Revers


text:
Talk:List of wars between democracies/Archive 6

Sovereign state
I changed polity to sovereign state. Using the term polity in that first sentence is awful. The whole intro may be undergoing a rewording, but sovereign state is so much more accurate and clear. I also note there are quite a few wars missing, even obvious ones.. like Lebanon vs Israel the other year and Georgia vs Russia. Both need adding. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Please add them. "Sovereign state" is an interesting and fresh approach to managing the issue of list criteria. Well worth considering, whether or not it attracts a consensus. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have restored entity because I foresee endless timewasting on the subject of whether various entities, like Israel of those proposed, or Canada before 1931, are truly sovereign. This list has two terms of variable definition already. But it's better than polity, which is hand-waving in the modern world, and redundant in antiquity; if there is consensus for sovereign state, I will join it; every war listed so qualifies.

 * The reason I haven't included the South Ossetia war is that I don't have a reliable source for it yet, although I have seen it discussed in precisely these terms. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I think sovereign state would cause problems for Pakistan in 1947 as well, although anything is better than polity in the lede of the article.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It was, like India, a Dominion under the Statute of Westminster; it even had (unlike Canada in 1947) the power to amend its own constitution. The exact phrase Sovereign Dominion turned up, as I recall, in the search we both did on Pakistan and democracy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:09, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So what are the relative advantages/disadvantages of "state" and "sovereign state"? (There is a merge discussion about this very thing, I fear.) I don't know what PMA means about polity being 'redundant' in antiquity (redundant in addition to some other term?), but I suspect this would be a digression. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In antiquity, "polity" means politeia; I'm not sure that its usage of modern entities is well-defined - or falsifiable. A democracy is a state with a democratic politeia; so "democracy" implies "polity". I indent to permit conversation to go on past this classicizing digression.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That sounds backwards to me. Wouldn't we say that politeia means "polity" (or "constitution") and that therefore there's nothing redundant about specifying "democratic polity" as distinguished from some other kind of polity? That is, "democracy" implies "polity," but "polity" doesn't necessarily imply "democracy." If we say "sovereign state," aren't we still looking at constitutional status as a criterion for inclusion? Cynwolfe (talk) 00:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It sounds like we are differing on the meaning of "redundant". What I meant by it was: if we already say A and A implies B, adding B explicitly does not change matters. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Getting back to the question, could someone educate me on the relative merits of "sovereign state" and "state" to introduce the list? Cynwolfe (talk) 11:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well people with a better knowledge of history should comment here, but my understanding is that the notion of a state, and in particular a sovereign state is a late mediaeval construct if not later. Democratic states if we look at British History maybe 18th C?  Depends a bit on how much of a franchise makes something a democracy.   We need a word which includes the Greek and other States in classical times, handles Dominions which in effect make their own decisions but are not constitutionally sovereign.  Polity seemed OK to me, but I'm open -- Snowded  TALK  12:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I may have been the one who brought in the "hand-waving" term "polity," for the reasons Snowded indicates: it seemed the most capacious term to cover political entities that were constituted as or have been called "democracies" historically. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I agree that "Polity" is too broad... but "sovereign state" seems too narrow. How would this change  affect inclusion of something like the American Civil War... the CSA certainly considered itself a "sovereign state", but I am not sure that anyone else recognized the CSA's sovereignty.  Blueboar (talk) 14:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So what are the pros and cons of just 'state'? For the article to move forward, the criteria must be clear and reflect a consensus, and I see the current discussion as an aspect of "clear criteria." So Blueboar's question has a broader significance: once the criteria are established, each entry can be discussed case by case, but my feeling is that the criteria should not be established on the basis of what individual wars editors may want to include/exclude. That is, if the list makes sense, it makes sense in theory, regardless of individual entries that will prove difficult for various reasons. (This unfortunately reminds me of a joke about the French at the UN that was makng the rounds a few years ago, with the punchline "Yes, that will work in practice, but will it work in theory?") Cynwolfe (talk) 14:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In theory the inclusion criteria is simple... a) the conflict must rate as being a war and b) the polities/states/nations/(whatever term we adopt) must be democracies.  However, in practice both of these criteria are problematic, because they require sub-criteria... a) what is the sub-criteria for saying something rates as a war? and b) what is the sub-criteria for saying the polities/states/nations/(whatever term we adopt) is democratic?  Unless we answer these questions, we can not populate a viable list. Blueboar (talk) 15:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. That has been and continues to be the problem. My position is still that these are not sub-criteria, but matters of verification, subject to usual WP standards of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. That's why I see a need to separate discussion on establishing the criteria for inclusion from individual cases. The problems inherent in these definitions are not unique to this list. When we say that a war (inclusion criterion depending on due weight of scholarship as to the conflict being a war) is fought between "democracies," what is "democratic" a descriptive of? State, polity, constitution, etc. This is a definitional problem of "democracy," but hasn't precluded other WP articles on subjects pertaining to "democracy," so working usage based on how scholars use the term has been feasible. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * On reading this article I was interested to see that there was a link to List of democracies. Does this article claim to list all wars between all types of democracies? Would a war between a constitutional democracy and a soviet democracy be included? I'm sorry, lot's of questions and no real input here. Truth be told I find it difficult to see a viable list here that should not include all forms of democracy, and as we all know defining a democracy can be very difficult. I find that peoples idea of a democracy very much depends on which democratic country they originate from. I agree with Blueboar above in that it would be very hard to populate this list. Would a sub-criteria really work on this? Looking at the list of democracies article I have my doubts. Sorry again, more questions than answers. Ally74 (talk) 15:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcome to WP, Ally74. I see that this is your very first edit ever, and that Active Banana, a participant in this discussion, has already welcomed you on your talk page. There is no List of democracies article. There is a List of types of democracy, however. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Am I in the crossfire yet? As I said on my talk page, I'll check out other articles to contribute to. Ally74 (talk) 16:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Lede: "constitutionally democratic form of government"
The lede states this is a list of "wars between entities that have a constitutionally democratic form of government." Does that mean we can include the Korean war, because North korea definitely fits this criteria. According to the North Korean constitution, the legislative Supreme People's Assembly (SPA) is the highest organ of state power. Under its constitution, all citizens 17 and older, regardless of party affiliation, political views, or religion, are eligible to be elected to the parliament and vote in elections. --Martin (talk) 01:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Find a significant number of independent secondary sources - not your reading of the North Korean Constitution, which is neither - which say so, and we will reuturn to this issue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * The North Korean Constitution is what it is. Whether or not a country adheres to its constitution in practice doesn't appear to be a factor, or is it? --Martin (talk) 01:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A country which is as undemocratic in practice as the People's Republic of Korea is unlikely to have "a significant view" that it is democratic. Is there substance here, or is this another hypothetical built on conjecture? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Dae-Sook Suh and Chae-Jin Lee, in their book Political leadership in Korea the North Korean 1948 constitution, which would have been in force during the Korean War, was a document designed for the "bourgeois democratic" stage in North Korea. --Martin (talk) 01:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * How nice. Does anyone else think this is reaching for straws? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * And including the Pennamite-Yankee War isn't? --Martin (talk) 04:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Until an editor contributes a properly sourced entry on the Korean War, I don't see the point of discussing it. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Pennamite-Yankee War may or may not be a legitimate entry, but this mode of argumentation isn't helpful. Asking a rhetorical question, as if the answer should be self-evident, isn't a positive step forward. Stating "the parties to this war were not sovereign states" would get us to the point more quickly. A consensus should be reached on the quite recent edit "sovereign state" and its usefulness within the criteria before individual entries are accepted or rejected on that basis. The criteria shouldn't be rigged to include or exclude anybody's pet war. In my view, the workability of the criteria can be tested by substituting other forms of government for "democracy" to see whether other lists could be generated; this is one indication that List of wars between democracies does not exist as an argument for or against a particular political theory, but as a neutral list based only on verifiable data. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually this is one of the problems with sovereign state; Pennsylvania and Connecticut and Vermont were - and still are - sovereign. (They limited the exercise of their sovereignty shortly after the Pennamite War, and in part because of it; but that did not have effect in 1784. I'm not going to include the Toledo War until I find a source calling it a war.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec)(od) While sovereign states sounds reasonable, it is unworkable because the concept is a modern one. Clearly, with modern definitions of nations, states, and democracy, many of the early entries will not qualify for inclusion because they were neither nations in the modern sense nor were the democratic as is commonly understood today. Using the commonly understood notion of democracy, only those modern nation-states that have constitutions and meaningful universal suffrage would qualify. But then, we would be forced to consider modern western states as being democracies only after the property and income requirements for voting were removed, after women got the right to vote, and, in the case of the US, after the civil rights act. Obviously we can't do that because that would be original research. I think that we should stop arguing about the list, let reliable sources determine whether or not a state is a 'democracy' and whether or not a squabble is a 'war' and list everything that qualifies under those two criteria. The only reason, IMO, to restrict the list to modern notions of democracies or states would be if this were a list that had a connection with the DPT, which, apparently, everyone agrees (or chooses to agree, since this discussion seems to have many layers of complexity!) is not the case. Meanwhile, arguing that North Korea is a democracy is stretching the limits of reality (or WP:POINT). --RegentsPark (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If I understand RegentsPark correctly, I am in agreement. Other articles have managed to deal with the problem of what "democracy" means while accommodating historical usages. We don't set the definitions; the verification process takes care of that, particularly since this is a list. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:50, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really see what was so bad about "polity". It allows us to avoid awkward questions about whether a Swiss canton, say, is a sovereign state. john k (talk) 15:02, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Anglo-Dutch war
I am curious as to why the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War is included, but none of the other, earlier Anglo-Dutch Wars? Blueboar (talk) 12:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Would there be any objection to adding them? Blueboar (talk) 16:36, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Can Protectorate and Stuart England be considered a democracy? john k (talk) 18:30, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Can Hanoverian England? I think England under the later Stewarts was as much a democracy as it was under Hanoverian rule... and I think there is an argument to be made that it was more of a democracy under the Commonwealth than it was under George III. Blueboar (talk) 19:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The Glorious Revolution and Hanoverian Succession assured parliamentary supremacy. Cromwell was a dictator; the Stuarts conducted a foreign policy largely in opposition to parliament.  By this standard, why couldn't the Eighty Years War be considered a war between democracies?  The Habsburg kings of Spain had to deal with a variety of different early modern parliaments in much the same way that the Stuarts did. john k (talk) 00:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... You have a point. I suppose this highlights the need for clarification as to what constitutes a "democracy".  I know there is a source that says the 4th Anglo-Dutch war qualifies for this list... but does it really?  Is it really correct to call Hanoverian England a democracy?  Where do we draw the line between "democracy" and "not democracy" when it comes to nations (like England) that were in transition... nations that were becoming increasingly democratic throughout the 17th and 18th centuries... but where that transition was a slow, evolutionary process?  There are some scholars who would argue that England did not become a true democracy until Victoria's reign. Blueboar (talk) 14:12, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Or possibly Edward VII's; Asquith had the first Cabinet without a majority of peers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Proxy conflicts
In 1982 Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear facility at Osirak. French technicians were present at the facility. There were also covert operations on French soil. Can proxy conflicts between democracies be included? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 04:33, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The EZLN
The EZLN, a democratic socialist movement, has been under military attack and harassment since declaring independence from the Mexican government in 1994. Can this be added to the list? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 01:38, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, this is for wars between two sovereign states. --BDD (talk) 22:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

But that's an arbitrary limitation. It's also inconsistent because you've included the Israeli war of independence etc. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You should make the Israeli argument separately, if you wish, but BDD is right that an uprising or civil war doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion on this list. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

The EZLN is for all purposes a sovereign state with a government administration, there's no reason to exclude it. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 04:35, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a) not a recognised sovereign state and b) it was born out of an uprising against Mexico and wasn't an established democracy or state. For these same reasons, I think the Israeli WoI shouldn't be included either. Neither should the USS Cole Incident or the American revolution. Alot of the entries should be omitted and the rest should be explained. I won't edit them as yet though. - <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 17:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

War of 1812?
Was Britain really a democracy in 1812?-- RM ( Be my friend ) 20:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes and no. Parliament ruled, and was chosen by election. The electorates were often limited, and the elections often corrupt; but the same can be said of most democracies; not least the United States of 1812. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:52, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Kant died in 1804. The definition of "democracy" and "war" should be that of Kant's i guess? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Britain was not near a democracy until the Representation of the People Act 1884.It took till 1928 before Britain had universal sufferage.User:ruskin — Preceding undated comment added 18:41, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Declined speedy
I've declined this because it doesn't really fit under G11 since it's not exactly invented per se. I have no opinion on the content as a whole as far as notability or other content-related issues go, but this doesn't really fit well under the various speedy deletion criteria since it's not exactly something that someone came up with one day and since it's a list page it doesn't really fit under A7 or any of the other criteria. Hidemyip123, if you want to pursue further deletion, this will have to be via AfD. I'll also alert WikiProject Military history to the article and let them look it over as well. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)  10:14, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * please do not delete. Political scientists have endless debates about wars between democracies, so it's a major topic. 1) "Wars between democracies: rare, or nonexistent?" International Interactions, 1993 is cited by 160 scholars; 2) "Kant or cant: The myth of the democratic peace" by C Layne - International security, 1994 - is cited by over 700 scholars. see opening page. Rjensen (talk) 14:09, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to let this go through afd just to get a sense about what the community thinks should eb done with the article. Its a little odd, I'll give it that, but I think Tokyogirl was wise in declining csd here since there is enough information to merit a discussion on the article as opposed to a summary execution. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Making this more NPOV
I think this article can be made cleaner and more NPOV, if we first convert it into a table, listing the name of the war, the supposed involved democratic parties, and how democratic they were, and how many died (because that's relevant if it fits a definition of war or not). However, I'm not going to do that work if other editors oppose it, so please comment here. --OpenFuture (talk) 13:31, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

No sense at all
I had seen bad articles, but this is one of the worst definitely. Implying that pre 19 century governments could be democratic in anyway that resembles the meaning of the word today is just laughable. Guidaw (talk) 03:24, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

 * This is absolutely true, but previous attempts to fix it was strongly opposed by one single very determined editor, and those who wanted more NPOV viewpoint just ran out of energy. Perhaps it's time, many years later, to try again. --OpenFuture (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Common to say, especially with such over-the-top language. But the word has changed its meaning over time. It's an old word. In a 19th century context it would have a 19th century meaning. A list of 19th century democracies, as opposed to absolute monarchies or the like, would be good to see, at least as candidates for discussion. Removing them would be giving less information, not more. Especially since there is simply no fully direct and unquestionably fair sovereign democracy in the world today, so it sets a very flimsy bias to the present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harsimaja (talk • contribs) 02:30, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

ZOG
How about the Jew-controlled UK's invasion of Iceland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 15:14, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I suggest that the incendiary language that I have put in scratch-out format be deleted or amended. For "ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government)", a commonplace smear by neo-Nazis, I suggest "British occupation of Iceland and the Faeroe Islands, WWII".

Iceland was not independent, the UK was at war with Nazi Germany; Denmark had just been conquered by Nazi Germany and was in no condition to defend Iceland, but the UK was; the British kept Icelandic institutions intact; there is no reason to believe that Icelanders would have preferred (Nazi) German administration. British occupation was remarkably gentle and did not constitute any effort to dissolve the relationship between Iceland and Denmark. I can say much the same of the Faeroe Islands, also a Danish territory.Pbrower2a (talk) 16:02, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

There is no question it was an invasion, but there is a question as to whether it was a war between them. It was never declared, but maybe it's still open to debate. The Icelandic government acquiesced peacefully and almost immediately to being occupied (not that they were necessarily very happy about it in principle, many of them were quite aware of the possibility and implications of an alternative German occupation). Harsimaja (talk) 02:32, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Paquisha war
The paragraph about the Paquisha War says that it saw up to 200 deaths in battle, but the main article Paquisha War seems to say that there were "only" 17 killed. Both are ostensibly sourced, so probably the sources here don't refer to this figure (it's an offline source). Can anyone with knowledge about the war correct this? —Ynhockey (Talk) 07:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

2006 war between Israel and Lebanon?
What about the 2006 war, when Israel attacked Lebanon? Though Israel's status as a democracy can be called into question (since Arabs in the illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories don't have voting rights, only Jews have), it is still regarded as such by most, and other instances of war between Israel and Lebanon are also named in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C6:3700:6600:D134:67E3:77DD:882 (talk) 21:36, 24 April 2019 (UTC)


text:
List of members of the parliament of Ukraine, 2006–07

The People's Deputies of Ukraine of the 5th convocation were elected in the snap parliamentary elections on March 26, 2006. The elections were held under the proportional system according to electoral lists of political parties and electoral blocks of political parties in Ukraine. The 5th convocation ended on June 5, 2007 (six weeks after the 2007 parliamentary elections).

According to the results of early elections the following political forces got in the Verkhovna Rada:
 * Party of Regions with 32.14% of votes
 * Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc, BYuT (Блок Юлії Тимошенко, БЮТ) with 22.29%
 * Our Ukraine Bloc (Блок Наша Україна) with 13.95%
 * Socialist Party of Ukraine (SPU) with 5.69%
 * Communist Party of Ukraine (CPU) with 3.66%

Together, these political forces gathered around 88.58% of the votes. All other political parties and blocks do not pass the electoral threshold of 3%. 2,73% of electors voted "against all".


text:
User:Averyfergy/Choose an Article

Article Selection
Please list articles that you're considering for your Wikipedia assignment below. Begin to critique these articles and find relevant sources.

Option 1

 * Speech recognition
 * okay, pretty interesting. Siri etc.
 * Speech recognition
 * Speech recognition
 * Speech recognition

Option 2

 * Utterance
 * Article Evaluation: Mostly complete, some flaws but fixable.
 * Utterance
 * Utterance
 * Utterance

Option 3

 * Communication studies
 * Very interested, Language in the media? (maybe create my own?)
 * Communication studies
 * Communication studies
 * Communication studies

Option 4

 * Conformity
 * Conforming to normality. Interesting but not sure if it ties to linguistics
 * Conformity
 * Conformity
 * Conformity

Option 5

 * Tone terracing
 * mainly done but overall interesting
 * Tone terracing
 * Tone terracing
 * Tone terracing

title: User:Averyfergy/Choose an Article


text:
Alpha (2019 film)

Alpha is a 2019 Bangladeshi fantasy crime drama film starring Alamgir Kabir, Doyel Mash and ATM Shamsuzzaman in lead roles. It is the third direction of Nasiruddin Yousuff. The film was released on 26 April 2019. It was the submission of Bangladesh to the 92nd Academy Awards for the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film, but was not nominated.

Synopsis
The film tells the story of a rickshaw painter, Alpha. He saw disharmony of the society. He had to struggle to with the condition of concrete jungle.

Cast

 * Alamgir Kabir as Alpha
 * Al-Mamun Al Siyam as Sarfaraz
 * Doyel Mash as Golenur
 * ATM Shamsuzzaman as Gondho Jetha
 * Heera Chowdhury as Hekmat
 * Ishrat Nishat as Solaiman's mother
 * Vaskor Rasha as Alpha's father

Release
The film was premiered on 20 April 2019 in Bangladesh Film Archive and it was released in theatres on 26 April 2019.

title: Alpha (2019 film)


text:
Template talk:Coor title dms/Archive 1

Koordinate Artikel
Note: currently the link is exactly the same as that used in de:Template:Koordinate Artikel. This should be changed to the link(s) used in our own Template:Coordinates. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Nevermind—it's the same link for both. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Very nice. Is there a way to make the parameters more exact, similar to Template:Coordinates? - Cybjorg 05:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Done! It makes it look awful and terribly long with no parameters, but it looks good when it's used. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry to keep changing it, but the format of is much nicer to use and read and also allows for an optional type: argument that can change the scale of the resulting map. — Saxifrage ✎ 07:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

top: -0.5em
Does that work for all browsers? → A z a  Toth 12:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know for sure, but it should if their CSS support isn't badly broken. It works in Firefox and Safari on Mac.
 * However, I just noticed a different problem: the "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running" banner changes the spacing between the top of the page and the article title, leaving a big gap under the coordinates for users who are not logged in. Anyone know if this layout is long-term or temporary? — Saxifrage ✎ 18:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I like this template a lot--and it actually looks good in both FF 1.5 and IE 6 on my system (my screen is set at 125 dpi so things usually look a little different). The only problem is that the coordinates are crammed right up under the "continued donations" text when I'm logged out, as Saxifrage pointed out. ~MDD4696 00:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Someone else pointed out that it breaks in anything but the Monobook skin, too. So, that leaves us having to still get a Developer to put the necessary CSS in Monobook.css before this can be widely used. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Point?
I don't see how linking co-ordinates inline isn't sufficient. The heading area is increasingly occupied by other symbols, and this template simply conflicts with them. Has a proposal for its use actually been made somewhere?--cj | talk 08:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It's been made at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates. The inspiration comes from the Dutch, Portuguese, and German Wikipedias (see New York City or Kaffee Alt Wien for example), where it has been adopted as the standard. As for conflicting with symbols, the placement should give those room. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I've added a banner that says the use of this template is disputed to the noincluded part of the template page. (I couldn't find any existing banner template for "experimental template" or anything more appropriate.) — Saxifrage ✎ 09:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for pointing me to the discussion. I was aware of its use on the German-language Wikipedia at least.--cj | talk 01:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there a degrees and minutes only option?
It seems rather superfluous for some locations, such as cities, to include seconds in the coordinate header - in effect you're pinpointing one location rather than the city itself: 1 minute of arc latitude corresponds to around 1.85km, and one second to around 30m... — SteveRwanda 08:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Since it's still only an experimental template, the corresponding degree and degree-minute versions haven't been made. They could easily be created though, if there was demand. — Saxifrage ✎ 18:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Template:Infobox Swiss town would need the dm version. For now, I added "0" for seconds. -- User:Docu

 * It was my understanding that this was temporary and experimental until an admin made the necessary fixes to common.css, monobook.css, et alia. I'd suggested the family title d, title dm, and title dms some months ago.  I didn't think folks were widely using this experimental version yet.
 * --William Allen Simpson 11:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Featured article star compatibility
I've rolled up a version using qif and booleq that allows you to specify whether the article containing the template also has the featured article star (allowing the coordinates to be positioned a little further from the right if necessary). Check out User:Locke Cole/Template:CoorHeader. Also check out User talk:Locke Cole/Template:CoorHeader (edit the talk page and comment/uncomment examples to see the effect of the new  variable). If this is acceptable, feel free to copy it in (or hack away at it). By the way, it seems the optimal spacing from the right edge also happens to be 1.5em (with no featured article star anyways). When the  variable is set to , then the spacing from the right edge is set to 30px. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This looks very useful, thanks. While the template remains broken in non-Monobook skins, though, I'm not doing any active development on it. I'd like to see the necessary CSS added to Monobook.css so we can start using and improving the template in earnest. — Saxifrage ✎ 12:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem with placement with Cologne Blue skin
In this skin the coordinates are currently placed in the top blue border. -- User:Docu
 * Thanks for the feedback. We're aware of the problem and it's currently preventing the template from shedding its "experimental" status. If it bothers you, feel free to remove the template from articles you work on. — Saxifrage ✎ 12:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * WOAH! There are now over 1,100 articles using this!  That wasn't supposed to happen!  Who's doing it?  Infobox?  If it's in an infobox, it shouldn't be in the Header, too.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Both above and below (interferes with interwiki links on Detroit, Michigan) the line look bad in Cologne Blue. But, so do the titled-click used for featured article and spoken wikipedia.
 * --William Allen Simpson 23:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * So, I tried Nostalgia. The Wikipedia globe image is on the right.  All three templates interfere (in the middle of the globe).
 * --William Allen Simpson 00:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

 * So, I tried Classic. Smack dab across the Go Search buttons.
 * --William Allen Simpson 00:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Not too bad in Chick and Simple. Definitely has to be below the line in those, though, as there isn't much room above the line with the bigger font, barely room for the little featured article image on longer titles.
 * --William Allen Simpson 00:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It used to work quite well in Cologne Blue compared to the current solution. Can you restore it? -- User:Docu

 * Working with Docu, CSS added to Cologne Blue.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

try placement below the line
In monobook, just below the title line it says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" left justified. Could we try this right justified in the same place? That would avoid the justification problem with featured article.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * That's not a bad idea. It's different from de, es, and nl, but it looks fine. I wonder how those Wikipediæ use the FA star, and how they handle it? Anyway, I've gone ahead and changed the template. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Alas, it runs into another problem: the template places the audio link right below the horizonal rule in the same vertical position as the FA star. See Beverage can stove for an example with both. I'll leave the changed template as is for now though, since it is experimental still after all. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * (2nd level of transclusion) and (3rd level of transclusion), both "position: absolute;" but I don't quit understand its source -- it uses 2 levels of nested div around span.
 * --William Allen Simpson 23:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Fascinating—the and  templates both use in-template CSS for positioning, so they're in rather dumb places for all skins other than Monobook. I could read this two ways: either there is precedent for ignoring other skins by the administration and we can just start using this template, or (less WP:POINT violating) there is a strong argument for having the site-wide CSS updated for this template and those two all at once. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The latter option sounds much better. Would that mean the coorheader and the spoken wiki would automatically align themselves correctly with no need for |fa| or other nuisances?
 * Unfortunately, no. Because they're in separate parts of the page, there's no way to make them "automagically" aware of eachothers existence to allow for that kind of automatic alignment, even if the CSS is adopted into Monobook.css. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, despite this being an experimental template, it seems to be becoming widespread. A temporary solution to the above problem needs to be found quite quickly, since at present there are articles with the coordinates and spoken wiki superimposed. — SteveRwanda 07:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've moved the right of the template over a bit to leave space. You don't really notice it when there's no Spoken Wikipedia icon there, and it leaves enough space when one is there. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Duplicate or replace
Is this coordinate header meant to duplicate or replace the coordinates found in infoboxes, such as city articles like Hudson's Hope, British Columbia or Omaha, Nebraska? --maclean 25 05:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It's meant to complement the in-line coordinates. Some articles warrant the coordinates in the text of the article or in an infobox, some don't, but all articles about locations can use coordinates. This template (as proposed—it's not policy or part of WP:MOS yet) gives another way to incorporate coordinates into an article independently of how coordinates are dealt with in the article's body. And it looks nifty. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

d, dm, and dms versions
I'm going to create alternative versions of this template that format the coordinates the way and  do since people have asked about those. I'm really not sure if this template will eventually gain popular support, but lacking those options can only frustrate potential supporters for it as a standard so we might as well have them.

I'm going to use the naming scheme proposed by William Allen Simpson above, but slightly modified to get "coor" in there:, , and. I'll be moving this template to in order to standardise them; however, using  will still work since it will remain as a redirect. (Possibly in the future it should be deleted to keep things clean, but we can worry about getting a bot to do the replacements much, much later.) I'll update here when I've got them all made. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. I think they're all working. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I wish you'd used the shorter title d, since "coor" isn't important in and of itself, and is someday scheduled to be replaced by "geo". Easy enough to replace later, as this is merely experimental.

 * I think this is a matter of taste: a template that doesn't try to describe its function in its name is unappealing to me. A further consideration is that a "title" family of templates could hypothetically exist for some entirely unrelated purpose, and having it in use or previously used for geographical coordinates would be messy. Better, I thought, to have these "temporary" templates named such that they stay out of the way of other projects. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, I firmly disagree with putting these templates at the bottom of the edit. It should be at the top.  When there are infoboxen, they are also at the top, and keeping the values coordinated will be easier when they are near each other.

 * I'm undecided on this point. The argument for having at the bottom is that, in non-Monobook skins, the placement of the coordinates may or may not be customised with CSS and therefore they should appear in a place where their appearance in-line is not disruptive to the article (this is how de: does it). The argument against it you've already given, and the technical implication being that the placement has to be customised in the CSS of all skins, or made invisible in skins that don't have custom CSS written for the template. Making them invisible (so as not to disrupt the article or page layout) is... well, I'm not sure if that's a good or bad idea. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Finally, the Usage should be on the Talk page, as most other templates. Changing such wording will cause a massive database update each time, although no changes to the actual inclusion and display.  I'm going to make that change right away.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The Usage should probably be on the Talk page, yes. I'd originally thought that it wouldn't be used very much so database updates wouldn't be a problem... obviously I failed to reconsider this assumption! — Saxifrage ✎ 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Further problems with the placement?
I think moving the location of the coordinates below the line was a smart move. However, I think there is still one problem. The "Spoken article" (example: George Mason University) might conflict with this template. Tell me what you think. Sean WI 19:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Fixed a few days ago, at "08:39, 27 March 2006" above. Is it not working?
 * --William Allen Simpson 22:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Yup, probably should have looked a little more closely, eh? :-P Sean WI 22:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

template at top
My thought is that we want the template at the top for easy edits. The bonus, on pages where the special CSS doesn't (yet) exist, the content will display just under the Title, but on the left instead of the right. Best of both worlds!
 * --William Allen Simpson 02:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think, stylistically, that many people will object to that strenuously. Consider that it will then be in the leader, at normal size and font, and the leader is held to very high standards and expectations by most editors. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Right now, the coor dm is usually in the lede, in parentheses right after the name. This would be very easy to change, just moving it up a line or two, and adding title in the template call.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I expect many editors will consider an in-line usage integrated with the prose (the current method with the family of templates) to be much preferable to having it appear as the first line, alone, in the leader. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * This would only apply where the in-line was changed. There's no point in both in-line in lede and a template at the bottom that sometimes shows up under the title...
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

So, I tried it at the top of Detroit, Michigan, and just noticed (after saving) that the coordinates aren't the same as the ones in the Infobox City. So, a good reason to have at top.
 * But, why have it at all? Couldn't Infobox City just invoke this template, too?   That would ensure the values are the same.  It does mean removing it from most of the test pages so far.
 * It's already been added to Infobox Swiss town.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Having it in the infoboxes would be ideal, yes. I think a standard rule for where to place it where there isn't an infobox is necessary though. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Not possible as written for Canadian cities (the coor template is passed as the parameter), while Infobox City is very obscure, and doesn't use coor. Well, I don't particularly like it at the bottom, but that's where it is for now, and it doesn't hurt anything.  I just don't think it's ideal for editting or display.
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

breaks the design
..this nasty template is around so long and still breaks the design. I would vote for disable the template until this is fixed. On every page that uses infobox city this template nearly makes my search field unusable. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Then you must be using Classic skin. Try Monobook.
 * --William Allen Simpson 15:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * That's an unacceptable solution. We don't obsolete a skin because this template is broken.  Please work to fix the template so it works in all skins.  —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:12 Z

 * It has been fixed so it will only be positioned there on Monobook. For other skins, it currently shows inline. --cesarb 19:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

please revert to absolute position
the changes made here by User:CesarB completely loose the purpose of this template, please change back to allowing absolute position. Qyd(talk)18:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC);
 * Fixed with refresh. Qyd(talk)18:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Visual appearance
I'm using monobook skin:

[updated positioning details —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 23:44 Z ]
 * Bold emphasis and capitalization for the word "coordinates" is unnecessary. The template stands out sufficiently by its position on the page, and the word coordinates is obviously a label for the actual coordinates.  As a simple label, there's no need for for capitalization.
 * While logged out:
 * In Safari 2.0.3, Firefox/Mac <IP_ADDRESS> and Opera/Mac 8.5.2, the template appears above the page title's rule, floating about three pixels above the baseline of the page title.
 * In MSIE 6, it appears above the line, about one pixel above the baseline.
 * While logged in:
 * In Safari and MSIE, the template appears below the page title's rule, with its baseline aligned precisely to that of the tag line "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia".
 * In Firefox and Opera, the template is one pixel high
 * Changing font size seems to change up the alignment in all browsers except Opera.
 * In all four browsers, it appears to be set in about 18 pixels from the right edge of the title (from the end of the rule).

I'll remove the bold emphasis and capitalization; hopefully no one objects.

The best place for this template is above the rule, so that the coordinates are associated with the actual article, rather than with Wikipedia's tag line.

Since it is right-aligned, it should be set flush with the right edge of the title. If this space is intentionally left blank to allow space for the star in featured article, then I suggest that the function of these templates be combined into one template (heading supplement?) so they can co-exist peacefully. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:42 Z

 * By the way, in all four browsers, the featured article star appears about a full 1.5 lines above this template, so there appears to be no conflict. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:52 Z

 * I disagree about the capitalization. It looks better with a uppercase first letter. --cesarb 19:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I'll change it back if you insist then, but first let my try to convince you:
 * Capitalization serves to draw the eye to the beginning of a small typographical unit, such as a heading, sentence, bullet point, or sentence fragment
 * This is not a heading or a sentence, just a simple label for the coordinate figures
 * This label already attracts a lot of attention by its position on the page
 * Uncapitalized, the flat-topped shape of the word has a cleaner look, especially when it appears above the rule (although this may not be the case in your browser; see above)

 * If you're not convinced, restore the capital c, or let me know and I'll do it. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 19:10 Z

Taking no position on the "C", "c", or otherwise. Disagree with Mzajac about appearance.

Viewing Calgary, Alberta,
 * Using Firefox Mac <IP_ADDRESS>, and logged in, the template appears exactly where it's been the past week, lining up almost exactly with the "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" on the other side. Might be a smidgen below.

 * Using Safari 1.3.2, and not logged in, the template appears above the rule. The head is much taller, and the phrase "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running!" shows up (it's not there when logged in).

So, the problem is that the heading changes. Somehow, this needs to float with the headings. And it should stay below the rule, there's no room above the rule, we've already discussed this.
 * --William Allen Simpson 20:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Verified the same with Firefox not logged in.

 * As to the location of featured article, it would help the rest of us for Mzajac to actually read the Talk. We've already discussed that, and it's the Spoken Wikipedia that we're avoiding by the shift left.

My guess is, good enough. It matches what other *pedia are doing in form. Need to get the other skins updated so that they work, too.
 * --William Allen Simpson 20:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is room above the rule. We just moved it below arbitrarily as a "let's try this" experiment. Even so, it has to leave room the icon.
 * As for having it float with the title, this is technically impossible as a template without significantly changing the way CSS is handled by MediaWiki (i.e., it would have to send different stylesheets depending on whether the user is logged in or not). — Saxifrage ✎ 21:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's as impossible as making the Main Page title invisible. --cesarb 22:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Then, this is about as close to perfect as we'll get. It will appear just below the line when logged in, and just above when browsing.  The (other) problem with just above is long page titles, fundraising notices, etc.  But by positioning where it is, we're fairly sure we avoid those!
 * --William Allen Simpson 22:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, I'm amused—I didn't notice that the "Main Page" title had been excised. Still, it's actually more difficult than that trick: it would require detection of the appearance of both the "donations" text and the coordinates template at the same time, something that can only be done in MediaWiki, not CSS. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:55, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't usually look at the Main Page (having bookmarked login long ago), so I didn't see a thing.... Sorry I missed it.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would argue for it remaining a capital C. Every other small typographical element in the interface begins with a capital and having just one be different is inconsistent. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. I've restored the capitalization.  —Michael Z. 2006-04-03 05:52 Z

Visual appearance redux
Sorry about my confusion.

I didn't realize that this template displayed differently when logged out, due to the fact that the site notice pushes the main heading down, but does not appear to logged-in users. I've updated the details above.

I did actually scan through the entire discussion before commenting, but the intent of the current template design is not obvious, and is further obscured by the fact that it seemed to appear nicely aligned above the line in the majority of my (logged-out) browsers, and I assumed that the exception (logged-in Safari) was the bug in the template.

I'm surprised that this CSS was added to monobook.css, because the current state of this template's positioning (as well as featured article's and spoken Wikipedia's) is not quite satisfactory. Is someone still working on fixing the problems?

Can someone point out any examples where all three of these absolutely-positioned templates appear on one page? I notice that this template and spoken Wikipedia are positioned using ems in monobook.css, with text-align:right and float:right. But featured article is positioned using pixels with inline CSS, and right:0;. Shouldn't they all be positioned consistently to at least get consistent results with different browsers and users' font sizes? —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 23:44 Z

 * Why yes, they should all use the same technique, and when they are put into the CSS each with their own id=, that's a good idea. But not an issue for us, it was hard enough (something like a year) to get this implemented.  Unless you are willing to take it on?  Don't forget, the others have the same problem with several skins as we do/did.  The FA and SW appear right on top of the globe in Nostalgia, and overlay Cologne Blue.

 * My guess is that the most used are Cologne Blue and Classic, as those gave feedback. I think that Saxifrage is working on it.  I'd offer to try my hand, but I've a family birthday gathering sometime tomorrow, and have to get some sleep sometime after all this April 1 watching.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Forgot to response to the nasty comment about "not quite satisfactory" and "problems". You admitted in your revised analysis above that it was perfectly aligned in several browsers, and one (1) pixel off in others.  How much more satisfactory do you want?  Man, I think Saxifrage deserves kudos, praise, and thanks!  A job well done!
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * No offence meant, and I'm sorry for sounding nasty. The problems are the inconsistency caused by the introduction of the donation notice only into non-logged in users' pages.  Too bad it works that way, but offhand, I don't see a way to get around it, short of altering the HTML in the page template, or using Javascript to alter the DOM.  Kudos for designing and implementing this, it looks great as intended, but the lack of control is not so good—it could break in other unpredictable ways if and when the site notice is changed by the powers that be.

 * There is also the few-pixel inconsistency between browsers, which I think may be related to line-height, font-size, or ems vs. pixel units, but that is minor, and it may be possible to work around it.

 * FA and SW positioning CSS definitely belongs in monobook.css, so they should just appear inline at the bottom in other skins, until someone adds support for those skins. I know some CSS and have admin access; can I help?  —Michael Z. 2006-04-02 03:51 Z

 * For all I know there might be good reasons for not doing so, or existing debate on complications. If you want to help with the FA star and SW icon, ask what the contributors working on those templates think about it. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

External to internal
Is it possible to implement the geo-coor feature inside Wikipedia? I'm thinking of something like Special:Booksources right now, and I think having it inside Wikipedia would be more reliable. What's your thoughts on this? -- WB 21:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The external website is a test site, with the intention of bringing it into Wikipedia eventually. See the WikiProject Geographical coordinates project page. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. Seems like it will be based on Google Earth? I would think World Wind is a better way to go since it's open-source, etc. -- WB 23:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There currently are many choices of map sources, and this will continue when the markup replaces the templates, as far as I know. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Google Earth is based on Java works on Windows or Mac. NASA World Wind is based on Microsoft ASP.net and DirectX, so it is Windows only, and will probably remain that way. —Michael Z. 2006-04-03 05:38 Z

Ready for US cities?
As there is now a fix for a few skins where the Monobook placement wasn't optimal, I'd suggest to add Coor title d to Template:Geolinks-US-cityscale. -- User:Docu

 * Sounds good to me. There seem to be several methods in use for US cities.  Infobox City was only one of the existing templates (updated by me a few days ago).  As cities are added to new templates, we need to check for intersections with the old CoorHeader, and remove it.  I'll start on that in a moment.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Woah, looks like Geolinks-US-cityscale uses only GPS instead of the dms system. There are other templates, such as US City infobox on the same pages.  There's going to be conflicts.  Need to decide which is which.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yep, Geolinks-US-cityscale is definitely on the same US pages as Infobox City, so that would conflict. Cannot take it off Infobox City used worldwide.  Looks like US City infobox is a better choice for the next US expansion.
 * --William Allen Simpson 02:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Finished removing old CoorHeader conflicts with Infobox U.S. City using coor title d. Still lots of US cities without an infobox of any kind.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The template is now not-broken in skins other than Monobook, but putting it inside an infobox will be broken in any skin that doesn't apply absolute positioning to the "coordinates" ID. I think infoboxes are not the best place to put this. Further, not every city that uses an infobox has the coordinates filled out. I really don't think this is necessary, especially given the brokenness. What do we gain by this move? — Saxifrage ✎ 04:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Geolinks-US-cityscale is on many pages making coordinates easily available in many articles, Infobox U.S. City just on a few articles.
 * The conflict with Infobox City would need to be resolved, either by removing it from Infobox City and adding Coor title d manually to the (non US) cities or by adding Coor title d by bot to pages with Geolinks-US-cityscale instead of the template itself.
 * BTW Saxifrage, you are writing "not-broken in skins other than Monobook". This is correct, check e.g. Berne in CologneBlue. -- User:Docu

 * Pardon, my round-about way of writing that was confusing. I did mean that it is no longer broken in skins other than Monobook. I was trying to say that despite this, placing it in the infobox templates would break the template in a different way in skins that do not use absolute positioning, such as Chick and Simple, by making them appear in the infobox directly rather than positioned elsewhere in the article. — Saxifrage ✎ 07:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Then, Chick and Simple need their CSS to be updated. Isn't that the responsibility of their maintainers?  I've tried to help out, but there's a limit as to what we are able to handle and test.
 * --William Allen Simpson 08:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Not all skins lend themselves to using absolute positioning. In fact, unless there is a very good reason to use absolute positioning it is usually considered poor web design. Chick and Simple shouldn't have absolute positioning tricks foisted on them just because it's appropriate for Monobook. — Saxifrage ✎ 09:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Then, they need the default to not display put in Common.css, as they did in the German Wikipedia. Then, it just wouldn't appear.
 * --William Allen Simpson 18:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's an acceptable way of handling it as well. It would require additional CSS to be put into all the other skins as well to make it visible in the ones that are appropriate. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

US cities redux
(started new section, as the previous seems to have diverged to skins)

I've also found Geolinks-US-cityscale (actually the older Mapit-US-cityscale) in Canadian articles such as Edmonton, Alberta.

The problem with the experiment of just adding CoorHeader was that whatever database was used gave different values. I was finding as many as 4 significantly different locations on a page. By using the Infoboxen, I'd hoped that edits in one place would then make a consistent display everywhere.

Instead, I'd be in favor of using Geolinks-US-cityscale after changing all corresponding Infobox City to Infobox U.S. City, and removing the coordinates from Infobox U.S. City entirely. That would give a consistent value (in the US).

Likewise, I'd be in favor of removing all coordinates from Infobox City and adding coor title d to the pages instead. As you mention, this shouldn't be hard to do by Bot. It has the added advantage of not disturbing the other pages while the conversion is ongoing.
 * --William Allen Simpson 05:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've come to conclusion that, as least with regard to the US and Infobox City, putting the coordinates in it was a bad idea. Turns out that some folks at WikiProject Cities may be converting from Infobox U.S. City to Infobox City, after some history of going the other way. Don't want to get in the middle of that spat.

So, in a few moments, I'm going to remove the coordinates from them as a bad idea, and Docu could add it to Geolinks-US-cityscale at his convenience.
 * --William Allen Simpson 18:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Done, also got the 49 old CoorHeader out of the way, too.
 * --William Allen Simpson 19:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Canadian City & Town
I've also added coor title dm to Canadian City and Canadian Town, removing all CoorHeader conflicts. There's a Mapit-Canada-cityscale, but it's hardly used.
 * --William Allen Simpson 06:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Finished replacing the Mapit-US-cityscale in Canada.
 * --William Allen Simpson 19:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed coor title dm from Canadian City and Canadian Town, as with Infoboxen (above).

Added coor title d to Mapit-Canada-cityscale, removing all CoorHeader conflicts.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Canadian City and Canadian Town are more often used than Mapit-Canada-cityscale. Thus it may be easier to add the template to those rather than Mapit. This may cause conflicts with the currently un-used Canadian geolinks templates (Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Geolinks-Canada-start) -- User:Docu

Yes, I tried it, but they are also a mess. They each have two different ways of passing coordinates, both of which involve passing the name of the "Coor" template to them as a parameter. I'd figured out how to make some of them work, but it turns out that quite a few didn't actually pass the convoluted parameters correctly. I got a complaint on my Talk.

My hope is that future Geolinks-Canada work will handle the problem correctly. As much as I'm excited to be seeing this happen, not enough to personally visit and fix every Canadian city and town page and fix any of the four different template schemes. I did a couple dozen before giving up.

As with the US, the Mapit/Geolinks seem to be the best way to go in the long run.
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Ok I see. I suppose the two Canadian templates eventually get fixed/updated to new options. In general, the coor= °N, °W option complicates things for the title template. BTW for the US, Geolink templates were added by bot, so they should be highly reliable. -- User:Docu

Perhaps someboty (pun) could add the Canadian Geolinks. And speaking of which, the US Geolinks are protected, so we're still waiting on you to add the coor title there.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * As there weren't any further comments, I added "coor title d" to the US Geolinks template. -- User:Docu

Mapit-AUS-suburbscale
I don't know if it affected any other places, but something was superimposing two sets of coordinates (slightly offset) in Adelaide before I commented out the call to this template. I'm certain it wasn't happening when someone first added the coor header, but I can't find which template is now doing it. --Scott Davis Talk 03:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, coor title d is now included in Geolinks-AUS-suburbscale. I'll look into removing conflicts.
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Not very keen on this template (class) behaviour of putting coords at the very top of articles
Since Coor title d is in Geolinks-US-streetscale which is protected from editing, it has meant all the articles that use that template have coordinates at the very top. Some of the articles that I did most of the editing on are now quite stylistically messed up (IMHO) because of that... I see that template has a disputed tag, but it seems this is the place to bring it up, so here I am. I don't favour having coordinates at the very top of articles, but if that is the clear consensus stylistically for all things that have geographic locatability (plant specimens, buildings, bridges, towns, parks etc) then I could go along. Can someone point me to where this topic was discussed and clear consensus was reached? Thanks! + +Lar: t/c 14:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * agree, don't force users to have this. Why don't have date+time at the top for all articles related to events? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 19:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * disagree. Is it possible to have the temnplate back in the header ? This feature was indeed the only reson I started inserting coordinates in articles. It's most aggrevating seeing the template moving from top back into the article body and back up again following some members' arguments. Meanwhile editors use the template and have their edited articles change every so often after random changes have been made. Some user made changes last night and apparently messed up something so in doubt, I will revert it to the 3 April version. Regards, Captain scarlet 11:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The topic has been discussed here It's actually working well on German Wiki for years, and I find it very smart. The only conflict I can remember was with one of the Wikipedia fund-raising ads. In consequene, the templates were temporarily changed to make them compatible. -- H005 07:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I personnally think it looks very good at the top. especially with the miniwikiatlis.js java-script extention thingy. Bawolff 05:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting templates in title
FYI, I noticed a conflict with another template. See Template talk:Geolinks-US-streetscale for my note there. — Eoghanacht  talk 14:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this still transparent to re-users?
Several sites use Wikipedia dumps to produce mashups that show Wikipedia articles on maps:, ,. I consider these sites one main benefit of having coordinates in Wikipedia articles. I'm concerned that with several different coordinate templates being called from a large number of different infobox templates, these external sites won't have an easy automated way of extracting location information anymore. Would it be desirable to stick with standard templates for location information? AxelBoldt 20:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I just found out that there's no problem at all; Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Coor_dms will list even those pages that use coor_dms indirectly through another template. Cheers, AxelBoldt 21:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But then it's still not easy to automatically extract the parameters of the coor_dms template if it was used indirectly through another infobox template. So my original concern stands I suppose. AxelBoldt 21:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

 * To faciliate such extractions and tools, e.g. a surround search on Interlaken, we could try to standardize the way various infoboxes and templates define coordinates.

 * IMHO we should avoid adding the coordinates several times:
 * Interlaken defines the coodinates in the infobox which is reused by the the header, both link.
 * de:Interlaken needs the coordinates 3 times: once in the infobox (which doesn't even link) and twice to make de:Vorlage:Koordinate Artikel work. BTW Interlaken had the infobox converted from de:Interlaken.
 * The infobox for other municipalities got the coordinates from the French version (similiar to fr:Interlaken where they don't link either).
 * It's already hard to make sure one version is correct, so three ...

 * Alternatively, we could have the Mediawiki GIS extension enabled on Wikipedia. A table with the data could direclty be available in the weekly wikipedia data dump. -- User:Docu

Overlaps
I really love this template, but it needs to be moved below the title, because they're overlapping. See, for example, World War II Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial. --☆ CieloEstrellado 10:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The template itself is overlapping. And it moved above the line without any edit to the template. I wonder, is the problem in the css class? Qyd 14:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it moved because the Wikimania 2006 message changed the layout of the page by increasing the space between the top of the page and the title's horizontal rule. It's an unfortunate limitation of the placement CSS that it can't respond to changes like that. It will go away once the WikiMedia Foundation removes that message... — Saxifrage ✎ 15:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For some reason, the overlapping only occurs in the dms template. coor title dm and coor title d are rendered just fine above the line. - Qyd(talk)23:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh! You meand the "Coordinates" part and the actual coordinates. Well that's just bizarre. The code looks fine, so I'm not sure what's causing that. Testing it out in the sandbox (diff), it shows up both in the template page and when the template is used. Um. I'm not sure what to do about that. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, it's because an element in the template that this one depends on was changed from an inline-level to block-level, making its wrapping behaviour change. I've asked the editor who changed it (User:Zocky) that it be changed back or a more complicated fix be applied. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Documentation request
I would like to expand the descriptive noinclude text on this template to say:

 * This template places latitude and longitude coordinates for the location listed in the respective article, in the upper-right of the page, just above the horizontal rule running under the article's title. Clicking on the coordinates will take users to an experimental mapsource wiki where they can choose a particular map site to view that location, just as clicking on an ISBN number at a book page will take users to a page where they can choose which library or bookstore they would like to use to get more information about a particular book. After testing, this service may eventually be incorporated into Wikipedia itself.

Thanks. --Elonka 19:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * No, it's just fine here, you've said it all! (We don't usually put much on the template itself, that's why there's a separate talk.)
 * --William Allen Simpson 20:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I have removed the {editprotected}, the talk page is fine for extended documentation. If you develop consensus for the change, reintroduce {editprotected}.--Commander Keane 08:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Interwiki addition
{Editprotected} [[:fi:Malline:Coor title dms]] —Ppntori 21:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.--Commander Keane 10:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * {editprotected} [[:fr:Modèle:Coordonnées]]. Cheers, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

subst?
Should this be substituted? --Storkk 14:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No. If we want to change the format in the future that would be detrimental. Moreover, the eventual goal of the geocoordinates Wikiproject is to develop a built-in markup for handling coordinates: subst'ing this would make it harder to track down all the pages that contain coordinate information when this needs to be replaced with that markup. Besides, it's really messy inside and substing would only make the wikimarkup more incomprehensible. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Position change, October 14
Has something changed today? The template is now appearing above the line, almost overlapping, for logged-in users. Has something happened to monobook to cause this change? - Crosbiesmith 08:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, the Foundation removed the donation message that was above the line for months before. It's not really noticeable, but those messages move the article body up and down, including the line, and the coordinates are defined relative to the edge of the page. So really, the line moved, not the coordinates. I notice that as of this comment, it's moved again and is below the line once more. (The original intention was for it to be above the line, but obviously the Foundation isn't making sure the page layout is stable.) — Saxifrage ✎ 20:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's nice to know someone's keeping an eye on it.  -  Crosbiesmith 09:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This template does not work (?)
In Cologneblue skin, the word "co-ordinates" and the first part of the latitude appear under the "Go" and "Search" buttons below the Find box, where they are occluded by those buttons, in the sidebar, and the text continues into the article where it finishes underneath the words "The free encyclopedia". The whole appearance is extremely unprofessional. Please remove this template from any articles in which it has been placed, until the problem is fixed. --Tony Sidaway 22:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Cologneblue places it on the upper left corner, below "Wikipedia", "The Free Encyclopedia" (at least on Abu Dhabi). Looks fine in my browser.
 * BTW which page are you viewing? Do you us any browser add-ons? Please don't just remove it if ti doesn't work in your browser. -- User:Docu

Problem with Template:Coor at dm, probably also Template:Coor at d & Template:Coor at dms
User:gadfium and I have experienced a problem with Template:Coor at dm. Basically I switched my skin from default to classic, and the coordinates appear twice, but jammed together (and with nothing at the top). Where is the appropriate talk page (if you have not already done this) and see if it can be resolved (The feature is widely used). For historic reasons the classic-skin should always work. I have not checked any other skins.

Cheers NevilleDNZ

 * For clarification: Coor at dms places the coordinates both inline and in the absolute position, by producing both coor dms and coor title dms from the same set of parameters. Now coor title never worked as intended in the classic skin, it was displayed inline instead of the upper right corner of the page, pretty much like coor dms. Naturally, "coor at dms" will result in basically two "coor dms" in the same spot when viewed in the classic skin. --<IP_ADDRESS> 05:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Your explaination describes exactly the problem. I am not a skin-expert. I was thinking that the classic-skin was missing a field, and the value defaulted to being inline. Maybe you are right re: "in the absolute position" top right. Can anyone direct me to a skin expert to help figure out if this problem can be solved, or if it is intractable. If it is intractable, then maybe we only have to evil alternatives. A) delete Coor at dms, or B) delete classic-skin. I know which one is the easy option ☺.

Another option would be to take advantage of the new mediawiki conditional expression. Maybe we can detect if the skin is incompatable, and not pop up the absolute coordinates.

Cheers NevilleDNZ 07:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The conditional stuff won't help, but another trick can be done. The "at top" part can be made invisible by the stylesheet of Classic. Where just the "at top" version is used, no coordinates will show up at all, and where the "at top + inline" version is used only the inline will show up. Would this be an acceptable solution to this particular issue? — Saxifrage ✎ 20:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Invisible may be an option. But will it still allocate a gap (for this hidden text)? and so ill-format the text? I guess as long as it looks OK, then I have no problem. The other issue you may get is cut and paste may get confused and drag out the invisable text. Also prime-evil browsers lynx probably will be challenged.

I suggest you contact User:gadfium, he would be a good choice of as "Γ-tester" as he noticed the problem first on the classic-skin.

NevilleDNZ 09:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hiding the at top field in the classic would be fine for the situation where both the at top and inline versions are used together. Where only the at top version is used, at present this is defaulting to showing the co-ordinates inline, and I am not sure whether this is desirable or a problem. It's desirable in that we get the co-ordinates, but it's undesirable because we have an element appearing which doesn't appear in that position in the monobook skin, and that might spoil layout.

 * I don't know if there are any statistics on how many people use each skin. Since non-logged in users get the monobook skin, it will be used by the vast majority. I've seen somewhere that quite a few old-timers use classic but I can't back up that statement. I don't know how many use other skins; I occasionally use Chick if I'm on a PDA because it cuts out a lot of the border material. It would be nice to solve this problem for all skins, not just for classic.

 * As an alternative approach, is it possible for the "co-ord at" templates to test for the monobook skin and only display if it is in use? That would seem to me to be the simplest approach.- gadfium 18:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Spanish interwiki
Dear administrator, please add the following interwiki:

es:Plantilla:Coor title dms

Thank you in advance, Julian Mendez 19:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.- gadfium 19:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you very much, Julian Mendez 22:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Interlingua interwiki
Dear administrator, please add the following interwiki:

ia:Patrono:Coor title dms

Thank you in advance, Julian Mendez 22:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.- gadfium 23:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved documentation
Hi, I've moved the documentation from this Talk page to the Template:Coor title dms/doc subpage, as recommended in Template doc page pattern. Please edit the template to: Coordinates: °N, °W

Thanks. +mwtoews 18:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done — Mets501 (talk) 02:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Problems today
This is all messed up again, with or without the begging message. See Tadley for example. Can a knowledgeable person take a look? Thanks - Crosbiesmith 14:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts with "dismiss" button
They overlap. Maybe add a line break at this template's beginning so it moves down one line? Urhixidur 00:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Mixing data
In the case of Tadley, I noticed that the lat/long is implemented twice and still does not redder well in that the two lines overlap. The redundancy bothers me some, but what bothers me even more is that the data is implemented once in decimal and once in DMS. As a purist and an engineer, I am mature enough to not fuss over the minor discrepencies in the data introduced (which could amount to a mere feet or inches or even less on the globe of the Earth) but it seems to be poor data design, or at least uncoordinated implementation of templates. I realize that decimal vs. DMS might be a matter of taste, but we also want to pursue uniformity among the articles. So the two goal I request are: Again, I hope we can see that that I want to avoid duplication of work (by avoiding duplicate conventions that have to be maintained in parallel within a single article) and a "preferred" units so that a uniform product can be presented to the reader has they browse multiple articles. This is probably a long-term goal, but what is needed is more coordination and good-spirit teamwork among the people who maintain the template(s). Is there perhaps a transition plan that I am simply not yet aware of? -- <IP_ADDRESS> 15:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Single, unified implementation so that the data does not tend to be implemented twice in one article
 * A stated, global preference of degrees or DMS, with flexibility

Help please, on the Wookieepedia
Hi. I´m trying to add this template into Wookieepedia, but still unsucessfully. Can anyone with extensive knowladge on these codes help me out? The main thing missing is that the cordinations shoiuld jump up to the right hand corner, but don't. Here's the link to the starwars page Wookieepedia:Template:Coor_title_dms Thanks --Steinninn 14:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Coords are the first line of an article?
I just saw this template in use today for the very first time, on Walt Disney World Resort. I think it looks really strange that the first line of the article - even above the introductory paragraph - is the Coordinates line. Shouldn't the Coordinates be made a little less prominent; do they really deserve to be the very first thing in the article? (I'm using the Classic skin, if that matters.) - Brian Kendig 14:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

 * If you don't like the coordinates to be above the article, don't use Coord title ;) There are other Coord templates that do not present the coordinates at the top, have a look in Category:Coordinates templates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Captain scarlet (talk • contribs) 15:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

 * Aha, thanks - being as how this was the first time I saw it in use, I didn't realize there were different forms of the template. What are the circumstances in which coordinates should be the very first thing in the article? - Brian Kendig 21:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The template documentation recommends placing it at the bottom of the article to avoid this sort of effect when using Classic. (In other skins, a placement trick that doesn't work in Classic is used to move the the coordinates up to just beside the article title.) When you see this sort of thing, feel free to move it down to just above the interwiki links. — Saxifrage ✎ 14:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Danish interwiki
Please add da:Skabelon:Coor title dms to the list of interwiki links. Thanks. Valentinian T / C 22:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interwiki links should go at Template:Coor title dms/doc, which is not protected. You can add it yourself.- gadfium 00:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Cologne Blue skin
This doesn't work for Cologne Blue skin. Compare, and. You should see the co-ordinates twice, but in the first case you cannot. --Audiovideo

 * My mistake - it is in the far top left - a long way from the article.--Audiovideo 01:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

New template: coord
Please see Coord, which is intended, after testing, to replace the  family of templates. These will then be substituted, throughout Wikipedia, by bot. All functionality is retained. Andy Mabbett 07:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Coor title dms/Archive 1


text:
Hadi Hobeich

Hadi Hobeich (born July 1, 1974), is a Lebanese politician, lawmaker and ex-MP of the Akkar district in North Lebanon between 2005-2022. He is part of the March 14 alliance and a member of the Future Movement, presided by Saad Hariri.

Early years
Hadi Hobeich, born in Qobayeit, is one of three children of Cheikh Faouzi Hobeich, former MP and Minister of Culture and Education, and Therese Daher. In high school, he enrolled with the Jesuits, at the college of Rosaries of Louaizeh, Kesrouan. He attended the University of Sagesse where he graduated from Law School in 1997. He interned at the office of former judge Dr. Mounif Hamdan from 1998 until 2001. He then founded his own law firm and started his political activism. In 2006, he married Cynthia Karkafi, daughter of Bechara Maurice Karkafi. They have four children: Christina, Tiffany, Charbel, Joseph.

Political career
In 2004, he starts his political career during the municipal elections of his hometown Al Qoubaiyat, where he defeated incumbent MP Mikhail Daher. In 2005, he was the youngest elected MP in the Parliament of Lebanon at the age of 30, representing the Maronite seat in Akkar. He integrated the parliamentary block of Future Movement and became a member of the Parliamentary Committee on Administration and Justice. In 2009 he was re-elected MP for the Akkar district, with 63.1% of the votes at the Lebanese parliamentary elections of 2009 thereby increasing his lead over his closest competitor. In 2010 and 2016, he leads the re-election of his list at the Al Qoubaiyat municipality council against the Free Patriotic Movement.

Parliamentary work
He is an advocate for increasing the accountability of ministers for their governmental performance. He questioned the Minister of Energy, Alan Tabourian on 19/01/2009, about the long-term rupture of electricity in Akkar as well as the subsequent suspicious rationing in the region, the disappearance of diesel fuel stocks, and the fate of electrical transformers intended for Akkar. He has also drafted several laws, most notably the regulations submitted on 05/11/2008 to amend some provisions of the law for establishing the Constitutional Council. On 22/09/2006, he contributed an amount of 3 billion pounds of the allocations of the Ministry of Public work and transport for the rehabilitation and paving of roads and streets in Akkar province.

title: Hadi Hobeich