text:
Medical microbiology/Sugar in the times of cholera

Introduction
In 1995, during a clean up of the local archive at the Museo Nacional de Historia de las Ciencias in Havana, Cuba, members of the staff found a misplaced document labeled “Cólera 1833”. At the time, I used to visit the Museum almost every week, looking for information on the history of epidemics. Presented with the document, I realized that it was an original account of the effects of cholera on a sugar plantation of rural Matanzas, written by its owner, and still unpublished. During the following months I transcribed the material and managed to find some basic information about the author. Early attempts at publishing the manuscript failed for lack of institutional support, but I distributed electronics copies among several scholars doing research on the history of Cuban slavery. We all agreed that an English translation of the text, published alongside the original in a bilingual annotated edition, could make a sizable impact on the development of the field. At the time, however, we were all caught up in other research projects and the logistical difficulties involved in any collaboration between academics from the United States and their Cuban counterparts seemed insurmountable. Eventually, the idea died out.

A decade later I am giving this editorial project another try. This time I would like to approach it from a different angle. A recent article by Rosenzweig (2006) on history as open source inspired me to use collaborative strategies for editing this document online. I am posting my original transcription in wikiversity, a sister project of the famous wikipedia site, and encouraging everyone to participate in the translation and annotation of the manuscript. This experience will be, at the same time, a test of the research potential of open collaboration and a pedagogical experiment on constructive learning. I am launching this editorial project here and now because I think that scholarly conferences could function as a platform to produce and reproduce all sorts of links between new online communities of content developers and traditional academic forums. Before exploring these dimensions of the issue, however, I would like to introduce the actual document. In the following pages you will find a brief biography of its author, a short discussion on the cholera epidemic of 1833, and an outline of the actual story included in the original manuscript.

The Author
José Leopoldo Yarini Klupffel was born in Siena, Tuscany, in 1789. His mother came from a well-connected family of Austrian officers and his father worked as a prosecutor in Florence, where the boy attended elementary school. At the age of 14, Yarini was already taking classes in the local University, but the onset of the Napoleonic Wars crushed his early academic ambitions. In the aftermath of the Treaty of Lunéville (1801), the Great Duchy of Tuscany had passed from Austrian to French control. The status of his family within the city of Florence was becoming increasingly precarious, and Yarini decided to move to Livorno in 1803. He worked as a surgeon apprentice in that city for almost a year, before traveling to Barcelona. The young Italian student was already committed to leaving behind the political turmoil of Europe and making his own fortune in the Americas.

Once in Spain, Yarini managed to obtain official authorization to travel to Veracruz. In 1804, after crossing the Atlantic, bad weather forced his ship to land at Omoa, in today’s Honduras. Unable to find work and still trying to reach New Spain, Yarini sailed to Batabanó, a fishing town in Southwest Cuba. He became sick right after arriving, probably suffering from a mild attack of yellow fever. Local experts advised him to move inland in order to recover his health. Yarini found himself living in Ceiba del Agua, a minuscule village west of Havana. He worked as a schoolteacher and surgeon apprentice there for four years.

Determined to become a doctor, Yarini passed a series of practical tests under the supervision of the Protomedicato and landed himself a job as an assistant at the Royal Military Hospital in Havana. A year later he applied for a degree of Bachelor in Arts, with the endorsement of the Hospital administration. The University of Havana granted Yarini his degree in 1809, after he passed a comprehensive package of formal examinations. He was so poor that the institution waived the nominal legal fee required to issue the diploma. At the time, the practical education in surgery and anatomy provided at the Military Hospital was vastly superior to the courses offered by the Faculty of Medicine. Yarini worked and studied for another year at the Hospital before passing a new series of exams and receiving the degree of Latin surgeon in 1811. Unable to find work within the tight professional hierarchy of the capital, he decided to move to the nearby city of Matanzas. By the end of the year, Yarini was working as a surgeon at the Matanzas Military Hospital, a solid but modestly paid job that he would manage to keep for more than two decades.

Now we encounter an intriguing gap in his biography. Sometime between 1812 and 1820 Yarini became the owner of a profitable sugar mill in the fertile Guamacaro valley, a few miles East of Matanzas. How could a humble military surgeon managed to amass the kind of capital required to start a business like this? His monthly salary of 20 pesos was barely enough to cover basic living expenses and his private clientele was rather limited. In 1820 he married Josefa Torres Lima, the daughter of a local landowner connected to powerful sugar families. His wife brought with her 10 000 pesos as a dowry, but at the time of the marriage Yarini was already worth around 30 000. A foreign-born university student, unable to pay his graduation fees, had become a prosperous sugar entrepreneur in less than a decade. Without proper documentation it is hard to determine the origins of Yarini’s fortune. Only one thing seems clear, slavery and sugar are at the heart of his social and financial success.

In 1821, Yarini became the father of a boy he named José de Jesús and decided to focus his efforts on the administration of the sugar mill. As a result, he was mostly away from the Military Hospital during the critical harvest months. Some of his colleagues complained to the local authorities and conspired to have him fired. Yarini was able to keep his post using the vast network of connections he had developed among the corrupt elite of Matanzas. In 1827 he even tried to get a promotion to the category of medical doctor, and an increase in his salary, on account of the extraordinary services he rendered every year during the yellow fever season. Although his petition was denied, Yarini was customarily addressed as “doctor” in many official documents. I have found no evidence that he actually earned a full medical degree. He died on April 1st 1839, six years after the events described in the manuscript.

The Epidemic
According to the World Health Organization, cholera is an acute intestinal infection caused by the bacterium Vibrio cholerae. This microorganism can enter the human digestive tract orally and after reaching the small bowel it releases a toxin that in turn increases the permeability of the cells covering the intestinal walls. As a result, large amounts of water and electrolytes are pumped from the blood into the lumen and then lost in the form of diarrhea. A severe form of dehydration develops if body fluids are not replenished in time. Main symptoms of cholera are watery diarrhea, vomit, muscular cramps, and acidosis. In its advanced stages, the disease could produce hypovolemic shock, a life-threatening condition ensuing from drastic reductions in total blood volume. This particular type of shock is distinguished by pulse and breathing alterations, profuse sweating, urine suppression, anxiety, and mental confusion.

Massive cholera epidemics are usually produced when a collective source of drinking water becomes contaminated with fecal matter containing Vibrio cholerae. For reasons that are still unclear, only about ten percent of all individuals infected during a given outbreak develop a serious form of the disease, but even asymptomatic hosts are a potential source of contaminating stools for as long as two weeks. Cholera has a relatively short incubation period (between one and five days), and some individuals can enter into a state of severe shock and die within hours of showing their first symptoms. Oral rehydration is the most common treatment, but the use of intravenous solutions and antibiotics is recommended for particularly compromised patients. The effectiveness of available cholera vaccines is low and their cost is high. Infrastructure development, popular education, and general sanitation constitute the best prophylactic measures against this reemerging disease. Today, poverty and inequality are among the most important factors affecting the geographic distribution, morbidity, and mortality rate of cholera worldwide.

By the end of the eighteenth century, several European travelers and colonial bureaucrats had reported the occurrence of seasonal epidemic outbreaks of a severe gastrointestinal disorder in the lowlands of Bengal, India. Known as “Asiatic cholera”, this disease was initially described in the West as an exotic nuisance of the tropics. It is probable that some sort of equilibrium between the acquired immunities of the Bengal inhabitants and the ecology of Vibrio cholera infections kept the disease circulating in a relatively small area. Apparently, the heavy presence of British troops around Calcutta broke this fragile balance, initiating the first modern pandemic of cholera in 1817. In several waves, the disease invaded Russia, the Arabic peninsula and the Persian Gulf. A massive outbreak among the pilgrims visiting Mecca in 1831 contributed to the spread of cholera through Northern Africa and the rest of the Muslim world. Most European cities were invaded: Moscow in 1830, Berlin and Vienna in 1831, Paris and London in 1832. The disease would eventually cross the Atlantic, carried by Irish immigrants into Canada. The east coast of the United States was severely hit in 1832. Throughout North America, cholera followed one of the most popular commercial routes: down the Mississippi to New Orleans, and from there to Mexico and Cuba.

The first cases were reported in Havana at the end of February 1833. Ten percent of its population died of cholera in three months. Hundreds of people panicked and left the city, carrying the disease with them. Almost one fifth of the slaves working in the sugar and coffee plantations of western Cuba were annihilated in less than a year. A mix of veiled criticisms aimed at the incompetence of government officials and apocalyptic calls for the modernization of the colonial infrastructure signaled the intellectual responses to the disaster. The authorities were compelled to initiate a serious reformulation of the sanitary administration system. Professional doctors and alternative healers competed furiously over the loyalty of their patients, but were unable to provide anything more than treacherous heroic remedies for the victims and meager doses of emotional comfort for their families. Despite the fact that most official responses to the epidemic followed a secular approach, many inhabitants got involved in unusual demonstrations of popular religiosity. At every level, this catastrophic event represented an enormous challenge but also an invaluable opportunity for social renovation.

The Story
After the birth of his second child in August of 1830, José Yarini became even more involved in plantation management. The Guamacaro valley was experiencing unprecedented levels of economic growth during those years. In 1828, the foundation of the port city of Cárdenas contributed to a sharp reduction in transportation costs for the surrounding areas. At the time there were at least a dozen sugar mills operating in Guamacaro, along with a similar amount of coffee plantations and a handful of smaller farms. A decade later, the Census (1841) listed 30 sugar mills and 73 coffee plantations in the area. Although more numerous, coffee plantations were smaller than sugar mills and employed less than half of the total labor force deployed in the region. Yarini owned 1200 acres of land strategically situated at the center of the valley and tended by some 120-130 African slaves under the supervision of four salaried employees. Known as Nuestra Señora del Rosario, this was a typical sugar plantation of modest proportions. During the harvest months, slaves cut the cane using machetes and hauled them to the mill house in two-wheeled oxen carts. The mill itself used draft animals to press the juice out of the cane. This juice was condensed at the boiling house, using a series of pots aligned over an open fire in an arrangement known as “Jamaican Train”. The resulting combination of molasses and crystallized sugar was slowly drained to let the liquid molasses out. Sugar crystals were broken apart, classified according to their degree of purity, and packaged in large boxes to be exported through nearby Matanzas. During the 1830s, this cane plantation and sugar manufacture complex was still run according to old standards established in the late eighteenth century (Moreno Fraginals, 1978 I: 78-95).

Cholera invaded Matanzas in March of 1833, two weeks after its first appearance in Havana. Unable to contain the spread of the actual disease, the local authorities tried to manage its social consequences. The official newspaper painted a rosy picture of the outbreak, insisting that the governor was taking all appropriate measures to keep the situation under control. The Military Hospital remained full for a month and Yarini kept busy at work. It was not until May 18th that he was allowed to visit his sugar mill. The story narrated in his manuscript starts with his departure from the city. It seams, however, that this is only the second part of his full testimony because he mentions the existence of a first part, describing his experiences at the Military Hospital. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find that other manuscript. The existing document is divided into 26 short chapters, and two or three more were obviously lost. The first and last pages are also missing, and some words here and there are illegible. Despite the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, following the storyline is rather easy. I will provide a brief overview of the content of each chapter, assembling them into thematic sections.

The first two chapters serve as a general introduction to the story. Yarini describes the reactions of planters and merchants gathered at a local Café in Matanzas, after receiving news of the cholera outbreak in New Orleans. Some claimed that slaves were immune to the disease, arguing that cholera was similar in that regard to yellow fever. Others said that slaves were particularly susceptible to the effects of cholera, citing letters sent from Louisiana by trustworthy eyewitnesses. Yarini sided with the latter group, after discussing the issue with a French merchant who had recently arrived from New Orleans. The third chapter is a detailed account of the first appearance of the disease in the Guamacaro valley. Revealing his professional prejudices, Yarini describes the strategies of two unlicensed healers. One of them, introduced as “a Chinese curandero born in the Philippines”, was successful in treating a couple of slaves who the other healer, an English man, had already pronounced dead. This is the first mention I have found of the healing abilities of the proverbial “Médico Chino” in nineteenth century Cuba, preceding by a decade the massive arrival of Chinese indenture servants to the island. Although claiming that the success of the Asian healer resulted from pure luck, Yarini is particularly interested in demonstrating the ignorance of his British counterpart. This “doctor Makie” is presented as an alcoholic full of grand ideas who claimed to be an expert on cholera, having fought the disease in Russia, Germany, and Poland. According to Yarini, more slaves died at the sugar mills placed under his care than those working in plantations with no medical attention of any kind.

Chapter four is a description of the medical topography of the Guamacaro valley, with an emphasis on the unsanitary working conditions of the sugar mills. Chapter five, on the other hand, is a chilling characterization of the daily life of the slaves themselves. At the root of all their illnesses, Yarini claims, was the avarice and cruelty of their masters. His presentation of the pathogenic consequences of slavery is unapologetic:

“Plenty of continuous work keep them oppressed, living with no rest and very little food. Naked and exhausted they are barely allowed a short period of time to lie their tired members on the floor and sleep. Their rest is often interrupted for insignificant reasons. Any minor fault, sometimes resulting from lack of sleep, is cruelly punished. Victims of the brutal furor of those barbarians that rule over them under the name of overseers, they are often used as a source of entertainment, presented as bait during the training of watch dogs. They are exposed to chronic diseases as a result of going rapidly from excessive cold to extreme heat. Full of disgusting ulcers, they are poorly assisted when sick, despite the fact that they have acquired their illnesses at the service of their masters. Degraded and humiliated all the time, living in total abandon, theirs is a sad and laborious existence. Instead of a source of incentives, life represents for them an unbearable weight. That is the only reason why many of them commit suicide in cold blood: to put an end to their continuous pain. Many of them have shackles on their feet and walk around dragging huge masses, pale and half-dead, living their last days in excruciating agony. Only death can free them from their anguished existence.”

In chapter six, Yarini comments on the arrival of cholera to the surrounding plantations. A detailed chronicle of the events that took place at his sugar mill during the first days of the outbreak occupies the next five chapters. Yarini tell us about each of his four white employees: the mayoral or slave overseer, the boyero or oxen manager, the maestro de azúcar or sugar chemist, and the mayordomo or estate administrator. The first cases of cholera, diagnosed right after the end of a violent storm, gave the author an opportunity to explore the metaphoric connections between climatic and epidemic disturbances. His coverage of the events is very detailed. Yarini includes passages taken from his personal diary and transcriptions of actual conversations where he attempts to reproduce the popular phraseology of his employees and even the speech patterns of his slaves.

The next block of chapters, from 12 to 17, are devoted to an even more precise description of one single day. On May 26 of 1833, all four of the plantation employees died somewhere in the Guamacaro valley, after failing to outrun the disease. Yarini provides a detailed account of practically every hour, peppered with clinical observations about cholera and commentaries regarding the most intimate details of daily life in an infected sugar mill. Many slaves decide to run to the nearby hills, in an attempt to escape from the disease, but a handful of them were forced to return the next day for lack of food and drinking water. Thirty pages of the original manuscript are missing, the equivalent of two or maybe even three full chapters. One way or the other, the narration is rapidly approaching its climax. All white employees are now gone and Yarini is surrounded by sick slaves. He asks a couple of them to dig some graves. One is specially prepared for the master, under his favorite lemon tree.

Seventeen slaves died on the night of May 26th, at the peak of the epidemic outbreak. Chapters 18 to 21, chronicling these events, are among the richest in the whole manuscript. Here Yarini describes the funeral rituals performed by the slaves, complementing his observations with a transcription of actual interviews. He also includes an inventory of preventive measures taken by the slaves, transcribing their own explanations about the meaning of both funerary and prophylactic practices. On June 11, Yarini decided to restart the operation of the mill. The last weeks of the epidemic are presented in chapters 22 to 25. Many of the slaves returned from the hills and the situation seems to be going back to normal. Within a few hours, however, two dozen of them started showing symptoms of cholera. This time the invasion is mild and most of the patients recover uneventfully. The remission of cholera brings closure to the story. In less than 20 days, 38 out of 129 slaves had perished in the sugar mill. The last chapter is titled “To my slaves that died of cholera, year 1833”, and this is how Yarini said goodbye to them:

“Comfort all of you that used to be called poor Negroes. Your sad penance and your labors have come to an end. Your forced and violent slavery has ended. The mother of all living things is opening her bosom to receive you. There you will find the rest that men stole from you.”

The Proposal
Charting the development of colonial medicine in nineteenth century Cuba is very difficult. We know plenty about the most prominent figures operating within academic circles, doctors like Tomás Romay, Nicolás José Gutiérrez, or Carlos J. Finlay. What makes the Cuban case interesting, however, is the proliferation of licensed and unlicensed practitioners working at the margins of the profession, where exchanges between complementary healing strategies were more frequent and productive. Plantation healers and garrison surgeons were instrumental in the creation of vast hybrid networks of practitioners, connecting the formal sphere of academic medicine with the informal realm of healing tradition. Understanding this process of medical syncretism and hybridization requires approaching well-known figures and conventional sources from a different angle. At the same time, however, we need to unearth fresh documents to create a whole new batch of case studies.

Yarini´s testimony is a perfect example of the kind of material we need. This remarkable document can illuminate many obscure corners of the complex interaction between slavery and medicine during a key period of institutional and intellectual renovation. In purely ethnographic terms, its value remains unmatched. As a window into the ideology and worldview of a slave holding “doctor”, this testimony constitutes one of the most useful pieces of evidence we have. Yarini was at the same time, an insider and an outsider. He combined the familiarity of a long term resident of rural Cuba with the critical outlook of a foreigner. While owning slaves and profiting from their work, he was also a critic of the institution of slavery. More than just a “contradiction” this duality was in fact essential in the construction of professional and medical identities within plantation medicine. Only a handful of physicians owned sugar mills in nineteenth century Cuba, but many practitioners found employment in plantation infirmaries. There, as in the hospital of Paris, colonial healers had easy access to the open bodies of their patients. In the infirmaries, however, they were also exposed to complex bodies of traditional medical knowledge. Plantation infirmaries only reveal their full potential when understood as nodes within vast networks of epistemic and professional exchanges.

We are merely starting to appreciate the historical significance of these exchanges. The scope and depth of the research required to reconstruct them place this type of study out of the reach of individual scholars. Personally, I think that it takes a network to understand a network. That is why I want to translate, annotate, and edit Yarini’s manuscript online, using a collaborative strategy. As the development of wikipedia shows, running an actual editorial experiment is the best way to organize a team of scholars, students, and general readers around this type of work. That site, however, has a clear policy against what its editors define as “original research”. It is obvious that translating and editing poorly known primary sources falls out of the scope of an online encyclopedia. Fortunately, the Wikimedia Foundation also host a sister project of wikipedia, known as wikiversity, that could provide an ideal home for this kind of experiment.

Inaugurated a few weeks ago, the wikiversity project is positioning itself as a space to promote the integration of physical and virtual learning communities. I am interested in this experience because I believe that academic resources in the humanities and social sciences could be allocated more efficiently through a radical integration of research, teaching, and public outreach. Rather than treating each of them as separate activities competing for funding and time, we should aim for the articulation of scholarly, pedagogical, and publishing endeavors into dynamic productive clusters. Classrooms ought to be transformed into networked workshops. Instead of a one way road for the transmission of fixed knowledge from full professors to empty students, we need to redesign the classroom environment so it can serve primarily as a coordinating hub for small teams of students committed to the production and dissemination of new scholarly resources and instructional materials. Within such a workshop, each assignment would arise from valid research needs and their outcomes would be treated as authentic academic contributions. Instead of being passive consumers of prepackaged information in the form of overpriced standard textbooks, students would be able to participate in the production of useful bits of real knowledge. Under this paradigm, static textbooks could eventually be replaced with free dynamic repositories of instructional multimedia resources manufactured for students and by students.

Students would be the main beneficiaries of this transition from static classrooms into networked workshops. Instructors, however, could also increase their productivity under the new paradigm. Our current model of academic production is centered on individual scholars crafting their articles and monographs in relative isolation. Intellectual credit and professional promotions are distributed under the assumption that academic authors operate as discrete creative units. Under this model, sharing resources is seldom encouraged, extreme specialization becomes enshrined, and open forms of collaboration are usually avoided. While exchanges among discipline and across institutions are officially promoted everywhere, the reality of academic life precludes authentic forms of teamwork from developing even within single fields or departments.

Transforming this landscape would require the emergence of a legitimate model of intellectual production running parallel to the one we already have. Only sustainable public displays of the raw power of collaboration could change the outlook of academic administrators and draw the interest of young scholars. For most of them, dealing with cumbersome tenure requirements is hard enough already. They are expected to publish, to teach large amounts of introductory courses, and to serve their departments in several other capacities. Under these circumstances, a synergy between teaching and research could be particularly useful for entry level professors. As facilitators of networked workshops, young academics could contribute to the creation of sizable online repositories in which their own authorship would be diluted but still recognizable. This could, in turn, demonstrate the viability of collaborative research models while accelerating a most needed transition from static to dynamic forms of scholarly publishing.

That is why I am inviting you all to join this editorial experiment at wikiversity. Following this link you will find a full transcription of Yarini’s manuscript in Spanish. Maybe you can contribute to the translation effort, or maybe you feel more comfortable working on annotations or commentaries. Whatever your field of expertise is, we will find something useful for you to do.


text:
Talk:Denis Irwin

Premier League
PraterNoster (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 08:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Dis-ambiguation
There is also a jazz Bassist named Dennis Irwin —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Photo
Surely someone could come up with a better picture of Denis! — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 12:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110515043036/http://www.manchester-united-fans-site.com/manchester-united-results-1991-1992.html to http://www.manchester-united-fans-site.com/manchester-united-results-1991-1992.html

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 18:48, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The Fall vandalism
In case this ever creeps in again, someone (via an anonymous twitter account) claims to have been banned for adding Irwin's love of The Fall to this article. I can only see 3 edits before the tweet that did as claimed, and neither of the editors responsible have a block log. There does seem to be a book that briefly mentions Irwin being spotted at a gig by the band, but I don't think it is at all relevant for the article. Spike 'em (talk) 12:18, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

source: wikimedia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Denis Irwin


text:
Wikipedia:Account suspensions/Joker83

User:Joker83
, see his upload log - I have blocked this user indefinitely since I believe it is a vandalism-only account; he has created several nonsense/racist (photoshopped) images and placed them on articles instead of the real ones. - Mike Rosoft 16:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Account suspensions/Joker83


text:
內省

Verb

 * 1) to engage in introspection; to introspect

Noun

 * 1)  the private living quarters of the emperor (within the palace)

title: 內省


text:
Talk:Avenue D (band)

Songs featured on compilations
The Avenue D song "2D2F" was featured on Erlend Oye's DJ Kicks compilation. This is probably where most people will first get to hear Avenue D, so I guess it should be mentioned. It also resolves the notability question imho, because Erlend Oye's DJ Kicks CD is certainly notable. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 02:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Daphne D
real name is Daphne Gomez-Mena
 * http://www.flixedit.com/about.php
 * http://www.discogs.com/artist/Daphne+Gomez-Mena

--Dwchin (talk) 19:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced, moved to talk page from article
Avenue D performed at clubs and parties in Australia, Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Serbia, and all across Europe and the United States.

On June 15, 2007 three Avenue D albums (Bootleg, Eurawesome!, and As Free As We Wanna Be) were released on iTunes.

Above was unsourced, moved from talk page to article. — Cirt (talk) 04:12, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140807170358/http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/infotainment/19-Dec-2003/talent-shines-at-new-york-s-latest-disco to http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/infotainment/19-Dec-2003/talent-shines-at-new-york-s-latest-disco

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Requested move 28 July 2018

The result of the move request was: Not moved, per consensus here and also precedent set at Talk:The Ghost (Faroese band) — Amakuru (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Avenue D (band) → Avenue D (duo) – Not a band per WP:BANDDAB. The editor  whose username is Z0 17:06, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. bd2412  T 01:26, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is a duo of electronic musicians. They play electronic musical instruments. Chubbles (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose as proposed. WP:BANDDAB says "Use either '(band)' or '(duo)' when the musical ensemble is a duet." It does not deprecate the use of "(band)" in these cases. Dekimasu よ! 02:24, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose the guidance on WP:BANDDAB says "Use either '(band)' or '(duo)' when the musical ensemble is a duet." Maybe we should remove the (duo) option as it adds nothing In ictu oculi (talk) 07:58, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - a band makes it more imprecise because there could be 2 to an infinite number of members whereas duo shows there is only 2 members in the group. A band is defined as "a group of instrumentalists playing music of a specialized type". This music group is a duo of electronic musicians who are not instrumentalists (players of a musical instrument). In popular culture, a band is typically a group of 4-5 people who sing, play the guitar, drums, bass, etc. Calling a group of 2 musicians a band is simply inaccurate and improper although literally they could fit the scope.   please consider reconsidering. Not only (duo) makes it easier to categorize music groups consisting of 2 members, it also distinguishes electronic music groups from regular music groups. The editor  whose username is Z0  08:06, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) To this point, I think everyone has been fairly accepting of the fact that you filed 30 individual move requests instead of a multimove. However, please understand that it's annoying to get over 30 page notifications for the same comment–and then getting 30 edit conflicts after you edit the comment with the ping in it. If the issues at hand are the same, please pick one talk page and have the rest of the discussion there.
 * 2) There is nothing inaccurate or improper about calling a band with two members a band. Musical ensemble: "Examples of two-member bands are Japandroids, Local H, Pet Shop Boys, Hella, Flight of the Conchords, Death from Above 1979, Francis Xavier, I Set My Friends On Fire, Middle Class Rut, The Pity Party, Little Fish, The White Stripes, Big Business, Two Gallants, Lightning Bolt, The Ting Tings, The Black Box Revelation, Satyricon, The Black Keys, Tenacious D, Simon and Garfunkel, Hall & Oates, Johnossi, The Pack A.D., Air Supply and Royal Blood. When electronic sequencers became widely available in the 1980s, this made it easier for two-member bands to add in musical elements that the two band members were not able to perform. Sequencers allowed bands to pre-program some elements of their performance, such as an electronic drum part and a synth-bass line. Two-member pop music bands such as Soft Cell, Blancmange, Yazoo and Erasure used pre-programmed sequencers." In fact, this shows why it is easier to have two-person bands when electronic music is involved. As Chubbles stated, electronic music is music made using electronic musical instruments. It isn't necessary to require a band to be analog.
 * 3) The proposal referenced a particular naming convention, but the moves do not follow from that naming convention. Dekimasu よ! 08:26, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

 * Comment. Reply to Dekimasu: I'm not saying a two-member band is incorrect but it's just less preferred compared to duo. Musical ensemble says two-member rock and pop bands are relatively rare and they are mostly rock and pop groups not electronic music duos that are the subjects of these move discussions. Wikipedia's preference is usually the one most commonly used. Bands play musical instruments unlike electronic musicians who use digital audio workstation (DAW) to produce their music. DAW is not a musical instrument but a computer software. As for the naming convention, it did say to use either "(band)" or "(duo)" when the musical ensemble is a duet, as in duo for the duet and band for others. That precisely supports my argument so I'm not sure why you said "the moves do not follow from that naming convention". The editor  whose username is Z0 08:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment the discussion for the general issue of whether electronic duos are accurately described as bands seems to be coalescing at Talk:The Ghost (Faroese band). Chubbles (talk) 10:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Discussion
See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)/Disambiguation. Andrewa (talk) 02:11, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Extended Plays
What the f--- is that text under Extended Plays? I don't think that should be there.2800:A4:174D:D800:B1B5:7622:98C3:C14F (talk) 01:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Avenue D (band)


text:
Kristína Schmiedlová

Kristína Schmiedlová (born 6 August 1997) is a Slovak former tennis player. Her older sister Anna Karolína Schmiedlová is an active tennis player.

Schmiedlová won two singles titles on the ITF Circuit. On 13 July 2015, she reached her best singles ranking of world No. 412. On 25 April 2016, she peaked at No. 507 in the WTA doubles rankings.

As a junior, Schmiedlová reached the final of the 2014 Wimbledon Girls' Singles Championship, where she lost to future French Open winner Jeļena Ostapenko.

Playing for Slovakia at the Fed Cup, Schmiedlová has a win–loss record of 0–1.

Her last match on the circuit has been in February 2018 when she lost in the final qualification round of an ITF event in Grenoble, France.

title: Kristína Schmiedlová


text:
Dutch/Appendix 3

^ Les 1 ^

Appendix 3 - Voornaamwoorden ~ pronouns
Like English, Dutch has pronouns. These can mark number, case, gender,politeness and emphasis.

Pronouns can function either as substantives (nouns) or as adjectives. There is also a number of related adverbs that will be treated here. Adverbs are typically not considered pronouns in grammatical analysis, but they deserve mention when discussing the Dutch language because pronouns are often replaced by pronominal adverbs.

Persoonlijke voornaamwoorden ~ Personal pronouns
In this table personal pronouns are given in nominative, accusative and dative case. These cases signify the role the pronouns have in the sentence. For example: In "I am hitting you", "I" is nominative (subject) and "you" is accusative (object). Also words with a preposition are in accusative case ("you" in "I am looking at you"). Dative case is special and tells us something is indirect object, as "me" in "He gave me that" or "He built me a snowman" or, with a preposition, "He gave it to me".

Remarks:
 * Sometimes there are two forms (jij/je etc.), which can be interchanged most of the time. (See 5)
 * Officially the plural 3rd person accusative form is hen. Hun is (officially) only used as a dative without preposition: "We hebben het hun verteld" ("We told them about it"). After a preposition hen should be used. This refers almost entirely to the written standard language and was artificially constructed by the grammarians of the past. In the spoken language hen is seldom heard. Even hun is increasingly replaced by ze as people tire of being told their use of hun is wrong by the schoolmasters. In the inanimate case the use of preposition+pronoun is rare, replacement by a pronominal adverb being preferred (See 8).
 * For inanimate objects personal and possessive pronouns are often replaced by demonstrative pronouns.
 * In the South -mostly Flanders- the gij-form is in regular use for the second person. It has its own verb endings. It adds a -t both in the present and the past: komen - gij komt - gij kwaamt. In the North its use is limited to Biblical quotes like: gij zult niet stelen - thou shalt not steal. Notice that u is used as object, without implying politeness.

Bezittelijke voornaamwoorden ~ Possessive pronouns
Pssessive pronouns are essentially the adjectival forms of the personal pronouns.

Remarks:
 * 1) The difference between jouw and je is matter of emphasis or the lack thereof: "Dat is jouw huis." vs. "Dat is je huis."
 * 2) Ons has an inflected form onze as most adjectives do (See ../Lesson 2). Other possessives are seldom inflected in the modern language: Mijne Heren!: Gentlemen!, Hare Hoogheid: Her Highness. More regularly inflected forms are used when the pronoun is used as an independent noun: Met welke auto gaan we? De mijne of de jouwe?. Jullie is never inflected, instead die van jullie is used.
 * 3) The neuter possessive pronoun zijn is very rare as Dutch usually opts for a construction involving a pronominal adverb like ervan. (see 8). The masculine and feminine forms are increasingly reserved for natural gender (persons, as in English) in other cases pronominal replacement is more and more the norm.

Personal Adverb - er
Dutch has a somewhat curious personal locative adverb er that replaces het and ze particularly in inanimate cases (i.e. for things more so than for persons). It occurs as the locative part of many pronominal adverbs, such as :erin, erdoor, ervan etc. but it can also be used independently:

 * er is koffie - there is coffee.
 * er zijn mensen die dat lusten - there are people that like that

Notice that er is not considered the subject of these sentences (koffie and mensen are the subject resp.)

Aanwijzende voornaamwoorden -- Demonstrative pronouns

 * 1) Notice that the distinction dit-deze does not correspond to the distinction this-these. Deze is used in the plural but it also used in the singular for m/f words. (It replaces de.)

Demonstrative pronouns are typically used as adjectives:

 * Dit huis
 * Deze auto

they can also be used independently:

 * dit is een huis
 * Zijn auto? Die heb ik gezien

They are more and more used to replace inanimate personal pronouns.

Aanwijzende bijwoorden - demonstrative adverbs

 * temporal

Dutch has three demonstrative adverbs of time:

 * 1) past: toen -then
 * hij heeft toen een huis gekocht - he bought a house then
 * 1) present: nu - now
 * nu woont hij er - now he lives there
 * 1) future/conditional: dan - then
 * hij het dan verkopen - then he'll sell it

 * modal

One modal demonstrative adverb is common:

 * zo - so

Occasionally a more proximate one zus is used for contrast

 * Dat doe je zus en zo - You do that this way and that.

 * locative

Two locative adverbs are in common use:

 * 1) close by: hier - here
 * 2) far off: daar - there

Both of them are used as the locative part of demonstrative pronominal adverbs like: hierdoor, daarvan etc.

A third adverb is less common:

 * 1) remote: ginds, ginder, daarginds -yonder

Zelfstandig- substantive
Without antecedent:

 * Dit is het huis dat ik koop -this is the house that I buy
 * Dit is de auto die ik koop - this is the car that I buy
 * Dit is de vrouw die ik lief heb - the is the woman whom I love

With inclusion of antecedent.

 * Wie mij steunt zal ik belonen - whoever supports me I shall reward
 * Ik verkocht wat ik eerder gekocht had - I sold that which I had bought earlier.

There are a number of archaic forms that can be used with prepositions:

 * neuter:hetwelk, hetgeen, hetgene, datgene : that which
 * other: dewelke
 * persons degene die: he who, diegenen die: those who

As in English the genitives wiens and wier (whose) can be used in relative clauses referring to persons:

 * ik ontmoette de man wiens vrouw voor ons werkt - I met the man whose wife works for us.

In inanimate cases the relative pronominal adverb waarvan is virtually mandatory.

Bijvoeglijk - adjective

 * ik weet welk boek hij gebruikt - I know which book he uses
 * ik weet niet in welke steden trams rijden - I do not know in which cities streetcars are operated

Bijwoordelijk - adverbial

 * locative

waar - where

 * Waar can be used to initiate a dependent clause:

 * dit is de stad waar ik geboren ben - this is the town where I was born

Waar is also used to form the relative pronominal adverbs like waarvan, waarvoor etc. that frequently replace relative pronouns.

title: Dutch/Appendix 3


text:
Talk:The Warriors (film)/Archive 1

"Boppers" a catchall?
I was under the impression that the term "boppers" used by the DJ was really just a phrase to describe/address the gang bangers in general, rather than referencing a specific gang named "boppers". she does say "to all you boppers out there". she's broadcasting on open frequency, so it's not like it has a specific audience other than gang bangers. so i dont see the point of including it in the list of gangs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The woman is refering to gangsters as boppers but there is also a gang called "The Boppers" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Armanalp (talk • contribs) 08:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Was Mercy really a prostitute?
At first I thought she was a prostitute when she is introduced in the movie, but Fox calls her a whore and she snaps back "I'm not a whore!". The movie has been pretty direct in telling the viewers certain things about the characters, and I thought this was perhaps one of those moments to 'set the record straight'. Of course she was a little slutty around Swan all the time, though, but I figured woman were just that way around him...

untitled comments
The link to Brian Tyler in the cast list is wrong. It links to someone else with the same name. I'm not really sure how to change the link because there is no page on him

Can someone confirm if the Warriors really fought the Furies in Riverside Park? I know the scene was FILMED there, but I always thought it was set in Central Park. I just can't think of any reason why anyone trying to get from Van Cortland Park to Coney Island would end up in Riverside Park...if they were forced off the IRT, why would they suddenly start heading west, unless they were planning on swimming across the river to New Jersey?
 * I believe they were chased from the IRT station at 96th and Broadway. They probably thought Riverside Park would be a good place to lose the Baseball Furies.  You wouldn't go to Central Park from there; it's further, and it's uphill.  Note: I changed the first paragraph, which had said that the film is set in New York City, except for a final scene in Coney Island.  Coney Island is in New York City, so I found this misleading.

This page could do with some work.
 * Yeah. "Too many cooks" comes to mind. I might take a stab at a cleanup if the article can go a couple days without more stuff thrown into the mix. -R. fiend 17:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I cleaned it up a couple of months ago, but it's become a mess again since then. I don't really want to rework it right now, but the two things that caught my eye are: --Misterwindupbird 18:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Do the gangs that don't appear in the film really need to be listed here?  Most of them are only here because of their presence in the video game.
 * 2) The paragraph about being pulled from theaters really needs to be sourced.  I've heard different versions of what happened, and this seems no more or less plausible than any other right now.  It might also be either expanded or merged with the main text rather than given a seperate one-paragraph section.

 * I removed most of the gangs mentioned; the ones which said nothing about them. I left the rest, unsure if the information was from the oft-neglected book (one should remember that it was a book before a it was a movie). From their descriptions, I think many did appear in the film, getting on the subway and whatnot, but were not mentioned by name. I wouldn't be too sad to see them go too (I'm referring more to the second list than the first). As for the pulled from theatres bit, I guess it would be best to find out who added it an ask for a source. I know nothing about it, I'll admit. I started this article after watching the movie a while back and was surprised to find it wasn't here already. -R. fiend 18:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I did a bit of revising and rewriting in the introduction and plotline, with some cleaning up in the "Pulled from theaters" section (which I know needs to be verified and sourced, but I cleaned it up anyway) as well as the "Gangs" section. At first I just intended to correct some spelling and grammar errors, but I didn't like the way the article flowed when I read it back, so I started the rewrites. Of course, there's much more that could be elaborated on, as well as some additions like the filming of, reception, etc. but I don't have the time for that now, and I'm sure someone else can work on that. What's there now should provide a good base. Paulcleveland 06:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I added the link to the Union Square pictures taken November 2005 and have now been replaced with other advertising. I found it interesting since Union Square was a major station in the movie.jbutera 05:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I find the comparison to "Anabasis" interesting. I know nothing about that story, but I always thought The Warriors came from the Odyssey, and I swear that in the book one character read a comic-book version of it. At any rate, a comparison to that story as well as Anabasis might be useful. paustin

I deleted a bunch from the Spinoffs section. Do we really need to know which program was used to edit an amatuer bike messenger movie that was influenced by The Warriors? One paragraph is plenty. py 13:09 11 February 2006

I wanted you to know that you are an fucking moron. If you knew anything about this movie, you twit, you would know that some of the gangs in the movie are real gangs and were put in the movie so that they would not destroy the set and that they even hired a gang to protect them. In the TV version, the undeleted version, the graffiti tag THE WARRIORS on the hideout was over a real gang tag so they crew had to pay $500 an hour to have the tag there.

JimmyNikaidoh123

I have heard the Immortal Homocides controlled Coney Island at the time of the filming of the movie, and were very upset when they tagged "Warriors" over top of their mark; therefore, they demanded to get a scene in the movie. Supposely the Immortal Homocides are in the Conclave Bronx scene.<IP_ADDRESS> 05:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Is Luther the leader of the Rogues? I remember a scene where he's talking to someone on the phone, and I always assumed it was the leader of the Rogues. Can someone confirm this? mixmastermind

There are no "Immortal Homicides"; it was the "Crazy Homicides" that were there, and yes, they did get angry at the filmmakers for tagging over their stuff. <IP_ADDRESS> 22:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I added a "Filming locations" section. The film takes quite a few interesting liberties with NYC/subway geography and I wanted to note some of them here. I'll add more to it when I get a chance. Also, this article is quite long. Maybe the list of characters and gangs can be placed on their own page, Characters in The Warriors, or something? --SHODAN 04:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Too much talk about the game?
Too many details of the game are put into this article, making it hard to read. Most of the games details were added to flesh out the story and do not actually show "insight" into the film. I think some of the mentions should be removed.

Far Too Much About The Game
Agreed. This entry is supposed to be a reference to the film version. The repeated references to the derivitave video game make this article confusing to read, not least because they are not relevant to the film - suggest that such comments should be removed and included in the separate video game entry.

Solution?
I would think that the discussion of the gangs that feature prominently in the game (Turnbull ACs, Harlem Boppers, etc) would be discussed in the pages about the game. As this pertains to the movie, though the Boppers were there, they had no say in the outcome of the Warriors. So I think that either there should be a different section to move the gangs to or move the gang discussion sections to the video game section.

Plethora of poor content and spelling errors
I don't mean to be too much of a negativist, but I swear that parts of this article look like they've been written by someone who suffered genuine brain damage at one point in his or her life. Could anyone so inclined do a big check on this article for spelling and grammar errors, and also improve the overall quality of the content a little while at it? I've always loved this movie, and its article deserves way better than this current state of affairs. <IP_ADDRESS> 08:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to Improve
It really is a tough call about separating the movie and the game. For starters, Rockstar Games got all the rights to produce additional content and even got as many of the original voice actors that they could. Ask virtually any game critic and they can tell you that The Warriors game is pretty much the greatest movie-to-game franchise produced to date. I'm sure whoever originally created the article had only the movie in mind, but there's so much media coming out about The Warriors that the original subject is probably changing to reflect it.

If you want to reduce your work load, it would probably be better NOT to separate it into two articles, but rather to create a single entity about The Warriors universe. This idea is compounded by the possibility of The Warriors remake scheduled for 2008, which may or may not come to fruition. But in doing so, you leave the possibility of expansion, and reduce not only your current work load, but any additional articles for the Wiki. --MrDopple 19:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Almost forgot. If there has to be a single entity which holds this article, the book came long before the movie to begin with (14 years before the movie release mind you), and should probably be the main article, NOT the movie. Oh... R.I.P. Marcelino Sanchez aka "Rembrandt", who died today 20 years ago.

characters from anabasis
will somebody please add that thing which has the characters from this film with the characters from the work that this was based on?

Seperate character articles
Just an idea, to make articles on all of the main 9 Warriors, Cleon, Ajax, Snow, Rembrandt, Vermin, Cowboy, Cochise, Swan and Fox <IP_ADDRESS>
 * nope. Pages would get deleted by WP:FICT.  People would also argue that the articles were just a re-statement of the plot and the characters only appeared in one movie (no sequel). Cbrown1023 21:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Slang?
Do we really need the section for slang in this article? There are a few, such as "going faggot," "colors," and "cripple" that seem either self-evident or already widely known. Amp 16:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The entire article is shit, actually. It should probably be reverted to where it was sometime last year, before too many cooks added everything they could possibly think of to the article, making it an utter mess of drivel. One of the few encyclopedic and interesting things, the comparison between the Warriors and Anabasis, was removed. -R. fiend 18:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

cochise
should it be added how he was supposedto be killed —The preceding unsigned comment was added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

 * Vermin was to be killed and it should be put under some sort of trivia section.

Fair use rationale for Image:Comeouttoplay.JPG
Image:Comeouttoplay.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 05:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TheWarriors 1979 Movie Poster.jpg
Image:TheWarriors 1979 Movie Poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 05:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pop culture references
These references are largely unsourced and need to be converted to prose form instead of the current list. I've placed them here until this happens.--J.D. (talk) 19:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

In the 2008 film Lost Boys: The Tribe, in the scene where Chris and the vampires provoke the police outside the sheriff department, one vampire bangs on the door saying "Warriors, come out to play-ay" in a similar way as Luther in The Warriors.

In the Sega Dreamcast video game; Jet Set Radio, the similar motifs of battling games and the DJ who narrates the action is a fairly obvious reference to the Warriors.

In the Wu-Tang Clan song "Shame on a Nigga", in the fourth verse Ol' Dirty Bastard says "Crews be actin like they gangs, anyway Be like, "Warriors! Come out and playiyay!" This is also heard on System of a Down's cover of the song.

The hardcore punk band, The Warriors, take their name from the film.

Rou Reynolds side project, Routron 5000, also samples parts of the film in a song called "The Chicks Are Packed".

In one episode of Catdog, catdogs starts a gang with the local rejects and try to take on the neighborhood bullies the greasers. When they approach the greaser's house Cat attempts to lure them out by calling, "Greasers, come out and play". A reference to Luther's line in the movie

Gang Page Deletions and Redirects
Martijn Hoekstra keeps marking these articles for deletion without discussion and R. fiend keeps trying to arbitrarily redirect them. If you want to delete these gang pages I believe a full AfD proposal needs to be written, and if you want to redirect it then discuss it first. -PatPeter 17:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I prodded the subarticles on the individual gangs, mistakenly, per Articles for deletion/The Turnbull AC's (gang). We can reasonably understand that the status for the other gangs is no different. A redirect is the correct outcome. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I signed your name for you... you gave me an edit conflict. But you and R. fiend want to redirect a large number of pages, which requires a newer discussion, especially with that discussion almost a year old. -PatPeter 17:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The gangs are barely notable within the film, not notable outside of it, and the Turnbull AFD established a consensus for redirection. What's the big issue? -R. fiend (talk) 17:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * edit conflict with next message Because you want to redirect a large number of pages at once, based off of a discussion a year old. Start a new AfD or AfM (I don't think we have an articles for merge... just go deletion and suggest merge) before continuing. -PatPeter 17:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Are there any independent, reliable sources at all, that provide significant coverage about the individual gangs at all? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I could watch the movie, play the game, and read the book adding citations as to what page, time, and event the information about the gang presents, seeing that the pages already have references to the movie and the game and whatnot. The point is moreso that you want to redirect a large number of pages at once without consensus, based off an old discussion, you should start a new discussion. -PatPeter 17:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * This sort of looks like a discussion to me, so we're on the right track. I still question the existence of independent secondary sources though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, but as long as only we three exist in this discussion you two will continue to say "redirect" and I will say "no redirect" so that without more people we cannot come to a conclusion. Link to the policy that says the page needs independant secondary sources. -PatPeter 18:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * There is no such policy. There is a longstanding tradition though (WP:N) that there should be. If it was a policy issue, no discussion would be required. I just don't think, without any secondary sources, therefor failing WP:N, these articles don't stand a snowballs chance in hell to reach any other outcome. It would probably just be a waste of energy, and wikilawering to insist an article goes trough a specific process if the outcome is pretty easy to predict. Still, I would really like to hear your arguments for keeping the seperate articles. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm hoping you are open to discussing this further. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Ahhh! Yes, but your edit gave me an edit conflict, it takes a couple minutes to create a good message, I was also editing when I decided to check this.

 * If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article but If an article currently does not cite reliable secondary sources, that does not necessarily mean that its topic is not notable
 * So these articles do not necessarily fail under WP:N. These articles do indeed stand a snowball's chance in hell, which means If an issue doesn't even have a snowball's chance in hell of getting an unexpected outcome from a certain process, then there is no need to run it through that process but I believe that some editors would vote to keep these articles and some would vote to delete it (not impling Wikipedia's identity as a bureaucracy, but rather because I cannot think of a better word than "vote"), though we cannot know if these articles don't stand a snowball's chance in hell unless we put it though the process. -PatPeter 18:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I wasn't saying that the outcome wouldn't be any different because there are no such sources in the article as it presently stands, but the issue is that I don't think any such sources exist, which is why I asked you if you know any such sources where with "such sources" I mean "secondary reliable sources, independent of the subject, that provide significant coverage on the subject", in case it wasn't clear. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * What are common secondary sources for movie articles, or rather aspects of movie articles? As I quoted, the articles do not need secondary sources. I have to go eat lunch and go to class, be back later. -PatPeter 19:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Usualy very hard to find. In very few cases they actually exist. If any books were written on The Warriors, they may have some sources. They sometimes turn up if there is a significant response outside of the fictional world, for example Rick's Café Casablanca (an article that is not specificly about the fictional Rick's Cafe). The Godfather is an example where books have been written on. Some of it's themes might have sufficient coverage. It is more common in literary works (there are several books on Tolkiens works, for example the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia). I can't quickly think of more examples, though there are sure to be some. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Have you found anything that looks like a promising sources yet? If not, do you still expect to find any, or is deletion a better option? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

 * If you haven't found anything yet, it might be time to see what content should be merged back and redirected, and what should be deleted. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What's with the reverse merge? Why are the gangs being removed from this article? This makes no sense. It's pretty clear there are no third party sources on the individual gangs, so separate articles seem uncalled for. -R. fiend (talk) 20:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Because, why do we have the same information in two places? If we end up merging all the gang articles back then we can easily merge them back. But if we have the information in two spots we would have eventually had to do what I did. -PatPeter 20:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Usually the way these things work is that they receive some basic coverage in the parent article, and are expanded in their individual articles (when they have them). Sure there is some overlap, but that's not a bad thing; there is plenty of overlapping of information on various articles throughout Wikipedia. Right now most of the gangs aren't mentioned in the article at all (just the template at the bottom), which doesn't make sense. No one is even likely to find these articles if they're not covered here in some capacity. And I still see no reason for separate articles. -R. fiend (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Well the version before I edited it did not have all the gangs on it, and therefore did not work as a good synopsis (though I know what you mean). I placed a link to the template... instead of listing off every main article, so that should work fine until we come to a conclusion. -PatPeter 20:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * If the gangs aren't important enough to the film to even deserve mention by name in the plot summary then I hardly see how they can be important enough to warrant their own articles. -R. fiend (talk) 21:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * They are important to put in the plot summary, just no one has, I will do that now. If you mean the "Other notable gangs" section, I suppose I could overcome my laziness and list all the gang articles. -PatPeter 22:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yurick's reaction?
I'm just curious here, but what was Sol Yurick's reaction to this film? I think that I've read somehwere that he didn't like it, but I'm not quite sure. if anyone knows what his thoughts on the film were, or knows of a place where I can find out, please respond. thanks.<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Look closer. His reaction is in the Reception section: "Yurick expressed his disappointment in the film version and speculated that it scared some people because "it appeals to the fear of a demonic uprising by lumpen youth", and appealed to many teenagers because it "hits a series of collective fantasies"."--J.D. (talk) 00:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Lesbian Lizzies?
The article currently refers to the Lizzies as an all female and possibly lesbian gang. I'm more than a little confused by this. The gang is certainly all female but there is almost nothing in the film to imply that the members are homosexual. Two members of the Lizzies dance together in one scene but that hardly counts as a statement of sexual orientation. Moreover, there's no mention their sexual orientation in the DVD special features, which included a long discussion of the scenes featuring the Lizzies. One would think that if that was meant to be implied, either the writer or the director would have mentioned that during the discussion. If anyone disagrees or if I missed something, please say so. Otherwise, I think that line should be removed. Nsfreeman (talk) 20:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Merging with The Warriors (gang)
It has been suggested that The Warriors (gang) is merged with this page. I disagree as it is simply too large. If anything it should be merged with List of gangs in The Warriors. WölffReik (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a moot point, as the merge suggestion was made a month ago, and the editor who did so never started a discussion of the issue. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 17:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Location of the Conclave
The assertion that the conclave happened at Pelham Bay Park is incorrect. Not only is this never mentioned in the film, but it simply doesn't make sense geographically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I just noticed this also. The wiki page for the novel The Warriors asserts that the park is actually the Van Cortlandt Park. This makes much more sense because when the Warriors flee the park they go directly to Woodlawn Cemetery, which borders Van Cortlandt Park, and is nowhere near Pelham Bay Park. They leave the cemetery and get past the Turnbull ACs and get on a subway train, but then a fire halts them and they get off the train in a neighborhood called Tremont (where they encounter the Orphans). The only trains that go through Tremont are the B,D, & maybe the #2/#5 trains which go through east Tremont. None of these lines are near Pelham Bay Park, which is served by the #6 (made famous in the movie The Taking of Pelham 123). It's a safe assumption that the train the Warriors get on is the #2. Without question the speech by Cyrus takes place in Van Cortlandt Park. So I'm going to change this to the correct location. Walterego (talk) 04:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact I'm certain it's the #2 train that the Warriors ride out of the Bronx, because after dealing with the Orphans the Warriors get back on the subway and ride it to the station at 96th and Broadway, which is a station on the #2 line. The Pelham #6 travels on the other side of Central park, so that would be completely wrong. The 2005 video game adaptation features levels called Pelham, Tremont, and "Gunhill", which are all stops that the #2 makes in the Bronx.Walterego (talk) 04:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Remake
I removed the following from the article and bring it here for discussion:

 * A modern-day remake of the film is set to be directed by Tony Scott, with a tentative release date of 2011.

This is an example of crystalballism at its finest. The ref. provided is a review of a Walter Hill boxset, with one, brief, sentence at the end mentioning the possibility of a remake in 2010. Recently, the year has been changed back and forth from 2010 to 2011 to 2012, with no explanation or source provided to support the change. Simply put, without a real reference saying this movie has been greenlighted, is in pre-production, etc., this should remain out. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 14:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Television Version
The DVD Version is different from the original TV version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonikku-Driver (talk • contribs) 06:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

See Alsos and the Hoe Avenue peace meeting
The link to the Hoe Avenue peace meeting article was removed by MSJapan. Now, the way I understand it, the purpose of linking to the Hoe Avenue peace meeting was not to say "The Warriors was based off of this". Instead, it was to point out that this historical event is similar to this fictional event. This is entirely inline with the purpose of the See Also section, as the link is relevant and related to the topic of this article. I think it should be re-added and will do so if no one has any objections. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:16, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Removed remake
I decided to be bold and remove the remake section. This speculation about a remake, and the source that goes with it, is now 6 years old, and Tony Scott is dead. It seems unlikely this film will be made. If other sources are found that show the project is going to happen, a new section can be written. All that section described was a possible project, which is not encyclopedic. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  02:26, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Production
"The entire film was shot on the streets in New York City with some interior scenes done at Astoria Studios."

Now that's clearly contradictory and incorrect...—Mmathu (talk) 07:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

References/Quotes
Not sure if it's important enough, but 'Can you dig it?' and 'Would you come out and play?' became iconic quotes from the movie. Can you dig it was used in a number of Shaft episodes and as a title to the final track of Iron Man 3 music score. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Release
It appears someone has tampered with the "Release" section of the article, as it is currently displayed. I don't know the facts necessary to correct it, but it claims the movie was released on 12/20/2012, which is only last night. The movie was released in 1979. The current edit also claims it had an opening weekend take of USD 300+ Million, which is a preposterously large amount for that time. That's even phenomenal for nowadays, and this was NOT a blockbuster.

If someone knows how to fix this stuff, please do.<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:00, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Thanks, I took care of it. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  14:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The bit about President Ronald Reagan screening it. He was not President in 1979, when it was released. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flea82 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you think presidents only screen films that are released during their term(s) in office? Hmmm? Yes, the film was released in 1979. Yes, Ronald Reagan was president 1981-1989. So? I'm screening it tomorrow in my home -- is that a contradiction, too? (2015 screening vs. 1979 release)   Sorry for being so harsh, but one should apply a charitable reading to most passages -- without saying whether the content is true or false, it is clear that the sentence means that the President screened the film during his term(s) in office. He probably watched Gone With The Wind, The Wizard of Oz, and many other pre-1981 films as well. Plus, given 1979 vs. 1981, he may have seen the film for the first time during a screening at the White House years after release. Chesspride <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 04:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on The Warriors (film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061213174848/http://mezcotoyz.com:80/products.asp?pline=war to http://www.mezcotoyz.com/products.asp?pline=war

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 12:52, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Encyclopedic information?
Hi ,

Could you elaborate why you think a long list of gangs is encyclopedic? And how do you know people come to Wikipedia for this kind of stuff? I see it as WP:TRIVIA: it does not add anything more to the article and the reader wouldn't gain any new relevant information. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:28, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It strikes me as trivia more suitable to a fan site. But if there were commentary in reliable secondary sources, we could summarize that. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

 * It's important to the movie to list all of the characters. It's very relevant to the plot and the world of the movie who all the gangs are and how you can identify them and where they are from. All of this is given in the movie, although not concisely as an encyclopedia should. Perhaps the information could be presented in a more encyclopedic way rather than a numbered list. Incorporated into the article. Either way I don't see why it should be completely removed. --The_stuart (talk) 05:04, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The characters are already listed and the plot describes the events of the film. Wikipedia is written for a general audience, not for people who want to know more about the gangs in The Warriors. The information listed isn't necessary in the first place, it mostly talks about the gangs' respective dresscode and area where they're from. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 08:22, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a movie about gangs, and how each gang dresses and where they are from is general information about how the world of this movie works, and this is an article about The Warriors it should be described in as much detail as necessary. It's like saying that the article on flag semaphore shouldn't include how each letter or the alphabet is formed because a general audience isn't going to grab flags and start sending signals. --The_stuart (talk) 13:41, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That's comparing apples and oranges. Articles are supposed to explain the subject in general, not in excruciating detail. Gangs listed from 9 through 21 aren't mentioned in the plot, so what is the reader supposed to know about them? It's told from an inappropriate in-universe point-of-view: where they're from and what they wear. That is not general information and doesn't explain how the world of the movie works. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 14:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on The Warriors (film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140103135431/http://www.v8tvshow.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=9768.0 to http://www.v8tvshow.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=9768.0

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:39, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Thomas Waites in cast section
The question of Waites being credited in the cast section was discussed over at the FilmProject, and the conclusion was that his role should be included in the production section. Waites had demanded his name be removed, which is why he is uncredited, so this is relevant to the production. I'll find the source and add it here. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 01:00, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

 * This article at the Village Voice talks about his demand to have his name removed: https://www.villagevoice.com/2015/09/08/remember-the-warriors-behind-the-chaotic-drug-fueled-and-often-terrifying-making-of-a-cult-classic/ I will write up something tomorrow and make a request that an admin add it to the article. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 01:06, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

He was still a main cast member even if he did fall out with the production crew, its no reason to leave he out as wikipedia is not censored. No matter how you look at it he had a notable role in the film that need inclusion in the cast list, the rest of the gang are there even tough that had less lines then Fox did. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:19, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

 * This has nothing to do with censorship. Please try to be rational. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 12:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit request
I would like the following paragraphs added to the production section. This should solve the matter of Thomas Waites being uncredited for the film. ---<b style="font-family: Georgia;"> The Old Jacobite </b><i style="font-family: Courier New;">The '45</i> 20:02, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Thomas G. Waites was cast as director Walter Hill's James Dean, and the director "invited the young actor to the Gulf and Western to watch movies like Rebel Without a Cause and East of Eden for inspiration." During the screening, Hill offered Waites a drink, which Waites refused, resulting in a rift between the two that grew worse during the grueling summer shoot. At one point, Waites threatened to report the working conditions to the Screen Actors Guild, forcing Paramount to provide a second trailer for the eight Warriors to share.

Finally, when the tension on set between Waites and Hill reached the breaking point, Hill demanded that stunt coordinator Craig Baxley improvise a stunt scene in which Waites' character would be killed. "Stunned, Baxley demurred. Such a critical scene would take careful planning. But Hill was insistent. 'I don’t give a shit how you kill him,' Baxley recalls the director saying. 'Kill him.'" Baxley found a crew member who resembled Waites and staged a scene in which the character is thrown off a subway platform in front of an approaching train. “It was like someone cut my soul out and left a shell,” Waites remembers. He would later demand that his name be removed from the cast altogether; he remains uncredited to this day.

 * this page is no longer protected. — xaosflux  Talk 16:50, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

also referenced in an episode of Community
one of the paintball episodes referenced the 'come out to play' line, should be added to "In popular culture" <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

comparison to Anabasis
I have had to remove for the second time the addition of an uncited comparison between the movie and Anabasis. It should not need to be pointed out that the Lede is simply the shortest for of the article, summarized into extreme brevity. It should not need to be said that, if it not referenced within the body of the article, then it does not get mentioned in the Lede. And yet, here we are. I am going to remove it again, and this time, whoever keeps adding it in had best find explicit referencing noting the ancient Greek classic. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary (and explicit) referencing. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:41, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It's cited in the linked article, as the edit summary says. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:32, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , perhaps you could point that out to me where that link to the RS connecting the two appear in this article? I am not against inclusion; I am insisting that the connection be made explicitly via a RS. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:10, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Jack Sebastian, thank you for your inspirationally courteous and collaborative approach to editing: you are a veritable paragon of virtue, and a model of editorial conduct from whom we could all learn. On the issue in question, as I did mention in my edit summary, I added two relevant references to the article on the Yurick novel: I felt that as the movie was fairly self-evidently based on the novel (a fact explicitly sourced) it was unnecessary to add further references here. How dumbly naïve of me!!! To meet your meticulously perfectionist interpretation of WP:V, I have now copied those references across here, and added two more, all of which I trust you will find satisfactory. Of course, you could have done that yourself (Googling "The Warriors"+"Anabasis" gets 57,000+ hits, a significant proportion of which are relevant and citable): it would probably have taken less time than it might have taken, say, to compose a snarky passive-aggressive message for my talk page. But, then again, that might have involved contributing constructively to Wikipedia, rather than just deleting what you don't like the look of. Eric Pode lives (talk) 21:00, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you ever so much for your efforts, . I can't fathom the Very Important Tasks I distracted you away from to address the issue of citing and placement of your inclusions.
 * Alas, 'twould appear that your arrow of insight hath yet again missed its mark - the Lede is a summary of the article; ie. if it isn't in the body of the article, it should not be included in the Lede.
 * Mayhap you missed that whilst pondering Very Big Things elsewhere, like how to craft the most elegant insult or somesuch. Perhaps your laser-like focus could be trained on how to better integrate the material into the body of the article, which would remove entirely my reservations regarding its inclusion. Forgive me for saying, but doing such would appear to be a far better use of your time instead of crafting pointed barbs.
 * To that end, please feel free to find a place for your inclusions within the body of the article. You seem experienced enough to accomplish that. I'll remove them again until you can improve the article by better placement. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you once again, Jack Sebastian, for your kindly words of guidance to an inexperienced neophyte such as myself. I have now added the disputed content, including references, to the body of the article, and I trust that we can draw a line under the matter. I would just draw your attention to one of the core guidelines of Wikipedia, WP:BOLD. In a nutshell, this says that if you see something on Wikipedia that you think could be improved, hey, you should just go ahead and do it! You really should try it sometime: you'd find it so much more satisfying than just deleting content and whinging about the inadequate efforts of your intellectual inferiors. Eric Pode lives (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, I thank you for taking time out of your Very Busy Schedule, to labor at something so tedious as adding your text and sources to the appropriate area of the article.
 * As well, I appreciate your suggestion in how to conduct my affairs within Wikipedia articles; in truth I felt only the slightest twinge of concern that you might take exception to what you clearly thought of my folding, spindling, mutilating or otherwise altering the contribution which you had so graciously blessed us with by adding to the article. Out of consideration for your past responses to my edits, I felt it necessary to involve you in a matter that concerned your most delicate of egos; I would only hope you would feel honored by my humble request for your presence within this most pedestrian of articles.
 * And it is my most fervent hope that you do not concern yourself with my reaction to your editing offerings today; indeed, I do not consider your impact within this or any other articles whatsoever. Rest easy, gentle traveler - your lament can now be extended to another page and another, far more deserving contributor. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Warriors (film)/Archive 1


text:
1991 Danish Superliga

The 1991 Danish Superliga season was the 1st season of the Danish Superliga league championship, governed by the Danish Football Association.

After about 33 years it had been decided to abandon the format where the league would follow the calendar year, therefore the first superliga season was a short dash through the spring of 1991. The following season would kick off in August and end in May.

There was no continental qualification as it had been decided the previous year, with Brøndby IF qualifying for the 1991–92 European Cup, and B 1903 qualifying for the 1991–92 UEFA Cup along with Ikast fS. Odense, however, qualified for the 1991–92 European Cup Winners' Cup through the 1991–92 Danish Cup.

The lowest placed team of the tournament was directly relegated to the Danish 1st Division. Likewise, the Danish 1st Division champions were promoted to the Superliga. The second lowest team in the Superliga and the 1st Division runners-up played a promotion game, for competing in the Superliga.

Relegation play-off
Silkeborg IF overcame a home first leg defeat to remain in the Superliga.

Top goalscorers
Bent Christensen was the top goalscorer, scoring 11 in 18 appearances.

title: 1991 Danish Superliga


text:
User:Adam.lin.usa/sandbox

Adam Chuen Chin Lin

Born in the city of Taipei in the country of Taiwan in year of 1976 in the year of the dragon. He moved to the country of the United States of America in just a few months after his birth with his parents by airplane. In the United States he attended pre-school, elementary grade school, junior high school, high school, vocational college, and an university.

title: User:Adam.lin.usa/sandbox


text:
Unlawful command influence

Unlawful command influence (UCI) is a legal concept within American military law. UCI occurs when a person bearing "the mantle of command authority" uses or appears to use that authority to influence the outcome of military judicial proceedings. Military commanders typically exert significant control over their units, but under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) a commander must take a detached, quasi-judicial stance towards certain disciplinary proceedings such as a court-martial. Outside of certain formal actions authorized by the UCMJ, a commander using their authority to influence the outcome of a court-martial commits UCI. If UCI has occurred, the results of a court-martial may be legally challenged and in some cases overturned.

History
During World War II, mass mobilization resulted in an unprecedented proportion of the US population serving in the armed forces. Over 2 million courts-martial were performed under the then-governing Articles of War, and large portion of the population was exposed to military justice. The reaction was not positive. The public and Congress perceived the Articles of War to grant too much authority to commanders, with harsh and arbitrary results. Infamously, some commanders would issue reprimands called "skin letters" to members of courts-martial who had been too lenient. Congress enacted the UCMJ to engraft civilian forms of due process into the military justice system, while at the same time maintaining the unique authority of the commander.

Under the new system, commanders retain significant formal powers over the military justice system. They refer charges to courts-martial, choose from among their subordinates to be members of the panel (the jury), and in some cases can overturn guilty verdicts and authorize or waive entirely punishment adjudged at trial. However, courts-martial are now presided over by military judges, and commanders are specifically directed to remain detached from the proceedings through Article 37 of the UCMJ.

Article 37
Article 37 of the UCMJ is the statutory basis for unlawful command influence. It states, in part:

Legal test
Courts have devised a complex test to sift cases for UCI. First, courts require that the defense produce some evidence to support an allegation of UCI. Once a court is satisfied that the defense has met this "burden of production," responsibility shifts to the government to persuade the court, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the UCI did not prejudice the accused. The government could show 1) the underlying facts did not occur, 2) the facts do not constitute improper influence, or 3) if there was UCI, it did not prejudice the defendant.

Examples of UCI
There are numerous ways that a commander exerts authority, both specifically within the military justice process and over subordinates generally. Each method of asserting authority yields a new way of improperly influencing a judicial proceeding.

Abusing formal powers within the military justice system
A commander (the convening authority) chooses the panel (the military analogue to a jury). The commander is supposed to make his selection according to neutral factors to ensure that the accused has a "fair and impartial panel" A convening authority commits UCI if he or she, with intent to influence the outcome of the trial, "stacks" the panel through excluding or including members.

Abusing commander's general authority
The "inherent power and influence of command" creates numerous avenues for unlawful command influence.

Commands can and have committed UCI by:
 * directly or indirectly criticizing panel members who find a defendant not guilty or adjudge a "lenient" sentence;
 * intimidating or otherwise discouraging witnesses from testifying on behalf of an accused;
 * suggesting or directing specific sentences for certain crimes (often through policy letters or public pronouncements);
 * publicly humiliating or ostracizing defendants before they have been found guilty;
 * sending inquiries to a military judge seeking justification of decisions.

Typical remedies
Although technically UCI is itself punishable under the UCMJ as a violation of regulation, there is no reported case where a commander faced UCMJ action for committing UCI.

Much more likely is an intervention by the military judiciary. Trial and appeals courts have a full gamut of remedies available. For instance, if UCI in the form of prejudicial statements by a commander is discovered during trial, the trial judge may act to "cure" the UCI simply by polling the members of the panel to determine if they had heard the statements or would be influenced by them. A trial judge may direct that a commander must issue a clarifying statement or retraction. Or a trial judge could dismiss charges entirely.

If the issue of UCI is raised at the appellate level, the appellate court has discretion to tailor an appropriate remedy. For instance, if the UCI consisted in statements from a commander that a certain punishment was required if a defendant was found guilty, a court could order a retrial on the issue of sentence only. An appeals court could also order a new trial. In the most extreme cases, a court could reverse the conviction with prejudice, effectively changing a guilty verdict to not guilty.

title: Unlawful command influence


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hippuristanol

The result of the debate was keep. Mailer Diablo 03:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Hippuristanol and Jerry Pelletier
Delete. Crystal ball. When this thing beats cancer, we'll repost it. The discoverer will be notable then as well. - the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  07:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

 * This discovery has been reported extensively in the scientific literature and so I think it's notable even if it doesn't cure cancer yet. I added the article because I saw the news reports and wanted to know more, but discovered there was no coverage in wikipedia.  I've sent emails to experts in these fields inviting them to expand wikipedia articles in their areas of expertise.  I think it's not very nice to delete authoritative articles that people are interested in and it might discourage participation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjhalasz (talk • contribs) 07:44, 20 March 2006
 * Discovery may have been reported as a chemical with potential, but that does not constitute notability now. WP:CHILL the.crazy.russian   (T)   (C)   (E)  07:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added a reference to Scientific American and preemptively redirected Jerry to the compound. Has non-trivial coverage in several major media.  Re CHILL - No hurry to delete, either. -  brenneman  {T}  {L}  09:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC) Not explicitly saying "keep" because it's not a vote, it's a discussion.
 * Keep. Meets current notability standards, reported in press/professional journals. This really ought to be a speedy keep, since the crystal ball test doesn't apply. Andrea Yates hasn't been validly yet; do we delete her, too? Monicasdude 13:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. The stuff exists, and something can be said about it. - Andre Engels 15:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Notability evidenced by Scientific American writeup. --Ed (Edgar181) 18:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Like the Crazy Russian says; no place for a crystal ball. When this stuff is actually out there and doing something then it could be worth an article.  In the meantime... Marcus22 20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * In my opinion it is doing something, namely being researched. - Andre Engels 08:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep, notable molecule. Covered in media, holds promise for human use, and notable regardless since it occurs naturally. Bobby P. Smith Sr. Jr. 22:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as above supportive statements. —GrantNeufeld 05:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep for above reasons. --Rob 22:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


text:
Kraut (surname)

Kraut is a German-language surname. Notable people with the surname Kraut include:

 * Bojan Kraut, a Slovene engineer
 * Dominik Kraut, a Czech football player
 * Laura Kraut, an American show jumping competitor
 * Ogden Kraut (1927-2002), American author
 * Richard Kraut, American professor
 * Robert E. Kraut, an American social psychologist

title: Kraut (surname)