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epstein-index

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	DIGITALLY RECORDED
	SWORN STATEMENT
	OF
	OIG CASE #:
	2019-010614
	DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
	OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
	OCTOBER 27, 2021
	RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES
	28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285
	Agoura Hills, CA 91301
	EFTA00127808

	LIMITED OFFICIAL USE
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	APPEARANCES:
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	WITNESS:
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	OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
	BY:
	BY:
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	OTHER APPEARANCES:
	EFTA00127809

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	The recorder is on. My
	name is
	1, and I am a Senior
	Special Agent with the U.S. Department of
	Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New
	York Field Office, and these are my
	credentials.
	Okay. Mm-hmm.
	This interview with
	Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - is it
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	1? 1
	Is being conducted as
	part of an official U.S. Department of Justice,
	Office of the Inspector General investigation.
	Today's date is October 27th, 2021, and the
	time is 1:53 p.m. This interview is being
	conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515?
	MR.
	I: 515.
	515?
	•: Yes.
	UNKNOWN MALE: Madison Avenue. 31st
	f1001.
	Okay. 515 Madison
	Avenue, 31st floor. New York, New York. Also
	present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent
	EFTA00127810

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	As well as --
	UNKNOWN MALE:
	attorney.
	I'm sorry. What is it?
	First name E-D-W-A-R-D.
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	H-A-Y-E-S.
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	•
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	representing
	Thank you, sir. Who is
	This interview will
	be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent
	could everyone please identify
	themselves for the record, and spell your last
	name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior
	Special Agent,
	MR.
	credentials.
	\| This is DOJ Special Agent
	•. And these are my
	: Okay. And I am --
	: I can't --
	--
	--
	-- I can't show you any
	credentials.
	--
	First name --
	Okay.
	--
	And
	EFTA00127811

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	last name
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	Thank you, sir. Do you
	happen to one --
	: I still don't know how he
	pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm
	so arrogant that I don't carry identification.
	You know what I mean?
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	No. That's fine.
	: Yeah. But you are sitting
	down here, you are willing to pay the fee.
	Yeah.
	You know who I am.
	So, I am looking at Mr.
	law enforcement officer credentials.
	And it has a picture. And a signature of the
	gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you,
	sir. And his attorney, do you mind - and
	again, it's
	--
	--
	--
	: - -
	don't have -. I really --
	NO.
	• And I'm sorry, I
	That's quite all
	right.
	EFTA00127812

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	lawyer.
	your office.
	226/2.
	6
	-- as I say --
	But you are -
	I'm his
	- perfect, and we're in
	Right.
	This is an official
	DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate
	Jeffrey Epstein and the circumstances
	surrounding it, and you are being asked to
	voluntarily provide answers to our questions.
	Will you agree to a voluntary interview with
	the DOJ/OIG?
	Yes, I will.
	: Thank you, sir. This is
	the form that we have to do all interviews,
	interviewees.
	: Is that form B?
	This is the OIG form III-
	: Yeah.
	:
	Okay.
	But it says is - I'm
	going to read it for you - United States
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	Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector
	General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee
	Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary
	Basis. It says, "You are being asked to
	provide information as part of an investigation
	being conducted by the Office of the Inspector
	General. This investigation is being conducted
	pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978,
	as amended. This investigation pertains to job
	performance failure,
	and
	security failure."
	And this is what we are writing for everyone
	that we speak to, just because we're looking at
	it as a --
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	_: Right.
	: - whole of what
	happened.
	"This is a voluntary interview.
	Accordingly, you do not have to answer
	questions. No disciplinary action will be
	taken against you if you chose not to answer
	questions. Any statements you furnish may be
	used as evidence in any future criminal
	proceedings, or agency disciplinary
	proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver
	section.
	It says, "I understand the Warnings
	and Assurances stated above, and I am willing
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	to make a statement and answer questions. No
	promises or threats have been made to me, and
	no pressure or coercion of any kind has been
	used against me." If you would like to take a
	look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if
	you want your attorney to look at it, he may,
	as well.
	Okay.
	You can sign where it
	says "Employee Signature." And then, also
	write your name. I did read it verbatim.
	: I'm sure you did. Okay.
	There is no place that said attorneys --
	No, no, no.
	: - signatures.
	It's not for you to sign.
	It's for him, myself, and the witness. It's
	just if you wanted to review it, or ask any --
	: No, that's all right.
	- questions about it.
	: That's all right. I do have a
	question.
	: Where do you want me to
	sign?
	: In other words, if you say to
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	him --
	MR.
	Oh, so, where it says -
	: Right side.
	-- "Employee Signature."
	: Do you have sex with ducks?
	And so, I'm not going to answer that question.
	That's the - he can't get in trouble for that?
	I won't be asking that
	question.
	I mean, (Indiscernible
	*00:04:18).
	MR.
	(Indiscernible *00:04:20).
	(Indiscernible *00:04:22).
	(Indiscernible *00:04:21).
	okay.
	Under the interview that
	we are doing right now, for voluntary
	interviews, he doesn't have to answer our
	questions.
	okay. Great.
	All right. So, thank you
	for signing that, sir.
	Did you have any
	questions on the form?
	No, I don't.
	All right. So, I'm
	EFTA00127816

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	signing as the signature of the Office of the
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	Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing
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	my name.
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	: Oh, one thing. So,
	ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at
	Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years,
	as you saw, to which my body is falling apart.
	I had severe arthritis in my neck, and it's
	radiated down to my hands. I can't really
	basically write.
	So, that's why -
	Sure.
	: — I'm not taking notes. But
	I have a pretty good memory, so, yeah.
	All right. Great.
	, can you just sign as the witness?
	MR.
	: oh.
	Put your name and take
	care of the rest of the form.
	MR.
	: This is Special Agent
	• I'm signing as the witness, and dating
	it.
	All right. Before
	starting the interview, I would like to place
	you under oath. l
	• can you please
	raise your right hand?
	EFTA001278177

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	Mm-hmm.
	Do you swear to tell the
	truth and nothing but the truth during this
	interview?
	I do.
	your current home address?
	: Thank you, sir. What is
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	And what is your date of
	birth?
	And what --
	: Jesus Christ.
	: -- what is the --
	: I'm old.
	-- what are the last four
	of your social security number?
	Is it correct that you
	were interviewed regarding the Epstein matter
	on August 19th, 2019?
	:
	Yeah.
	Or in August of 2019.
	I know it was some time in
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	August.
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	Dix.
	Two
	weeks.
	12
	Correct. Okay. How long
	have you worked for the BOP?
	: 30 years. And August,
	September, October, November. 30 years and
	three months.
	All right. And what is
	your current position with the BOP?
	: I'm the Warden at ECI Fort
	okay. And what are your
	-. You are the warden, you said?
	Yes.
	Were you previously a
	regional director?
	: I was the deputy regional
	director in Philadelphia.
	: And how long have you
	been the warden at FCI Fort Dix?
	About two or three weeks.
	On, so --
	Yeah.
	it's a brand --
	Yeah.
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	- new position?
	It just got there. Yeah.
	Okay. How long were you
	the deputy regional director?
	I got it in February.
	: Okay.
	Of 2021.
	Okay. And as the deputy
	regional director, what were your duties and
	responsivities?
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	•: Monitoring he activities of
	the 20 institutions in the region, and, you
	know, managing the administratives within the
	northeast region, and, you know, showing that
	institutions were running in an orderly
	fashion.
	Now, did you supervise
	the various wardens at those institutions?
	:
	Yes. I was over there.
	was the rating official on some of the
	evaluations.
	I
	And were you a warden
	prior to that position?
	:
	Yes, I was.
	Where were you a warden?
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	warden there?
	some time in 2020 --
	regional director?
	given --
	14
	In New York. MCC. The
	Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York.
	: And how long were you a
	: I came from May of - '17,
	'18 - May of '18 until, I forget the date, in
	2020. I forget what it was.
	Okay. So, May 2018 to
	Yeah.
	- when you became the
	No. The position --
	Yeah.
	- prior to that, I was
	okay.
	-- was a liaison to the
	regional director. And then, I went into the
	deputy position.
	Okay. Sounds good. And
	August of 2019, though, were you a warden at
	the MCC New York?
	:
	YeS:
	I was.
	Thank you, sir. And are
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	you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who
	was housed within the MCC in July and August of
	2019?
	Yes.
	Yes. Okay. Great. What
	I have here is an after-action report that was
	written by the BOP.
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	Mm-hmm.
	Have you seen this?
	I have not seen that.
	All right. So, this is
	not something that you are actually familiar
	with?
	No, I am not.
	: No one discussed any
	findings or anything like that with you?
	No one.
	: All right. I'm going to
	set this aside just in case we need to, you
	know, reference it. So, no role in the after-
	action report?
	Nothing. I wasn't
	interviewed. I wasn't spoken to.
	: All right. Do you know
	of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to
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	and at least about, like, providing the
	information that they utilized to this report?
	_: No.
	: No.
	Okay. Fair enough.
	After the incident occurred, what was your role
	with determining what happened and what didn't
	happen after Epstein was found on August 10th,
	2019?
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	: Well, I responded to the
	institution. At the time, when I got there, he
	was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the
	unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene,
	and I've always been trained, if it was a crime
	scene, if you weren't particularly there, the
	least amount of people that, you know, that go
	through that crime scene, just don't go into
	it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know,
	basically gathering information on what
	happened, notifying the region, notifying the
	FBI. The IG.
	: (Indiscernible *00:09:28).
	He's already got that phone call.
	:
	oh.
	: oh, yeah, you know what I
	mean?
	Jeffrey Epstein --
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	Mm-hmm.
	: - like, fuck it, I'm going to
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	sell. Oh, okay.
	:Yeah.
	: That's why we do it for the
	next six months.
	: So, there was a lot of
	notification on what happened. Trying to find
	out the status of inmate Epstein. And things
	more along those lines.
	Now, did you help with
	gathering information, up until a certain
	point, and then, were you told not to anymore,
	or did you continue to gather -?
	: No, like, my boss was
	calling me the regional director. They needed
	information. You know, starting a timeline on
	what happened. So, I had my executive
	assistant there, and, you know, we would just
	gather any information, and just, you know,
	making sure that, you know, things that were
	requested were being provided to them, any
	information.
	And who was the regional
	director at the time?
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	time.
	*00:10:21).
	MR.
	18
	It was
	at the
	Okay. And then, who was
	your executive assistant?
	(Phonetic sp.
	okay.
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	Now, as part of our
	investigation, we have to review everyone's
	emails, with regard to the incident.
	Right.
	you provided
	So, you mentioned that
	with timelines --
	Yeah.
	-- and things like that.
	So, these are just some timelines from - again,
	Mr. Epstein, I believe, was found around 6:33
	a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	In the Special Housing
	Unit. This is a timeline starting with, it
	1ooks like, August 10th, 2019, at 11:04 a.m.
	So, a few hours after the fact. It just says,
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	it says, "See below.
	Just to ensure you know
	what is being relayed to DOJ." Now, is this -.
	And then, what I have behind it is, these are
	different timelines that are all updated
	throughout the day.
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	Mm-hmm.
	Here is one that was at
	2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one
	was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August
	12th. And then, the final one that we have is
	the August 13th. So, do these look like the
	timelines that you would have been gathering
	information and providing
	• to
	?
	Okay. It looks like it.
	: Now, where were you
	actually obtaining this information from? You
	said
	was obtaining it for you?
	•: He was the exec, we recall,
	and in that, I'm not too familiar on the
	specifics on how we get it, because there was
	so much going on.
	: Mm-hmm.
	: That, you know, I don't
	recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you
	know, calling around and trying to find out.
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	So, I don't really recall the specifics.
	: All right. well, rather
	than get into each one of these, because it
	will take too long, I'll just do the very first
	one.
	It says, it just says, "7/23/2019, at
	1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in
	cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge
	staff initially." So, that is referring to the
	first initial attempt that Epstein may have had
	on his life?
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	: Let me see which one. Are
	we talking the day of, or -?
	: No. This is --
	This is July.
	: - yeah, July,
	(Indiscernible *00:12:40) 27.
	Oh, no. This is July.
	Yeah.
	This is the --
	So, this is the -
	- no, the --
	-- timeline.
	- this would -.
	We would
	have probably got this from the SIS
	investigation.
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	--
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	Okay.
	From that. I thought you
	were referring to the actual suicide. This is
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	No. What I meant was --
	-- this is -.
	-- just the information
	that was all put in there, as far as -
	: This was his first attempt.
	- well, it's everything.
	So, so, it starts July 23rd. The next one is
	July 29th. And it goes 8/9/2019. And then,
	and then, until -.
	So, it's only - there is
	only a few. That's why I was going to read it,
	just because there is only, like, three
	paragraphs, four or five, four or five
	paragraphs.
	So, this looks to me like we
	send the information to the regional director -
	-
	Mm-hmm.
	- and what he did was,
	compile this information to send to DOJ.
	Okay. Oh, you're right.
	Yeah.
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	he is saying --
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	Ray --
	This is not --
	- sent this to you.
	So,
	-- yeah, this thing.
	-- "see below --
	Right.
	-- just ensure you know."
	:
	so, this is compiled off of
	several different documents --
	Okay.
	-- which he condensed.
	So --
	From -.
	: -- he sent it to you.
	I'm sorry. I read that incorrectly. So,
	looking at this, then, let's just review it and
	make each point, just make sure that it's what
	you understand. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019,
	Epstein was found in a fetal position in cell,
	breathing, but would not acknowledge staff
	initially."
	:
	Right.
	"After removed, he
	interacted with staff and speaking to staff.
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	Neck was red. Placed on suicide watch, and
	medical evaluation.
	Epstein receive daily
	psychological evaluations while on suicide
	watch." Was that your recollection, too?
	Yeah. That is what is in
	the report. But I want to -
	Sure.
	- clarify what we went -.
	You know, when I, when you first read it to me
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	--
	Mm-hmm. i
	-- I thought you meant the
	day of.
	rup, yup.
	So
	--
	Well, we have that, too.
	That's --
	Right.
	- that one is here. And
	this one is from you, and this is what I
	thought it was starting with, as well.
	: Right.
	Because it said timeline
	on it. From you to
	This initial
	one actually talks about Friday, August 9th,
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	1
	2019. It starts with, "8:00 a.m., inmate Reyes
	2
	Efrain,
	, departs for
	3
	court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. Reyes is Epstein's
	4
	cellmate."
	5
	6
	7
	8
	: Right.
	: So, just starting with
	that, then, I do have, we're going to get into
	that later, but what does that tell you, if it
	says inmate Reyes is departing for court, but
	it also says WAB-USMS-SDNY?
	: So, that would mean With All
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	Belongings.
	So, that means he's not
	returning. Correct?
	Yes.
	All right. So, at 8:00
	a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leaving, not
	coming back to the MCC.
	_: Mm-hmm.
	All right. Great. And
	then, it just goes on from there, what happens
	throughout that day. And we're going to get
	into these things more in detail, so I don't
	want to go through each thing, because we're
	going to have to get into it later. But so,
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	this information is stuff that you guys were
	2
	compiling, and you were providing to Mr.
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	That would probably be
	information that we sent up to him.
	: Okay. Great. And then,
	this is all the updates that occurred
	afterwards. Let's see. Why is that
	highlighted? So, here is something. Do you
	know why in this one, it would be updated?
	This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then,
	"7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the
	warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong
	place or something, and it says, "Inmate Reyes
	released from court."
	(Indiscernible *00:16:27).
	: (Indiscernible *00:16:30)
	just in the wrong spot. It was made for August
	10th.
	Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible
	*00:16:34).
	Yeah. Okay. So, the
	next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It
	just shows the next update, you have that under
	August - or Saturday - August 10th.
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	This can't be -. This
	doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it
	says, "PIO notified of incident by the warden."
	I was off that day, on Friday.
	I wasn't at
	work.
	Yeah. So, that's why I
	think that they -. So, the next one I'm
	looking at shows that that point is now under
	Saturday, August 10th.
	Yeah.
	I don't know why it
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	would be --
	So --
	-- under Friday, because I
	wasn't --
	-- yeah. okay.
	-- I wasn't working.
	So, you were actually off
	-
	I was off --
	- off on August 9th?
	- on Friday. Yes.
	All right. You and
	everyone else.
	Huh?
	Everybody was off that
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	day.
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	: Yeah. I didn't come back to
	work until, when I got called, there was a
	suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28).
	okay. So, all of this.
	So, if I can have that back, if you don't mind.
	So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to
	assume that, as this went on, and specifically,
	the last one that we have is Tuesday, August
	13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th,
	would be the most accurate timeline?
	want to attest to it.
	: It should be, but I don't
	I mean --
	: Yeah, yeah.
	- yeah.
	: I'm just saying, based -
	is there any reason for you to believe that the
	timelines that were provided, or in any way, it
	was determined that, you know, we should add a
	point that actually didn't occur? Or is it
	safe to assume that, the last one that was sent
	would be the most accurate one?
	: That's how it typically
	works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't
	attest to it --
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	28
	And yeah.
	-- of whether it was
	accurate, but typically, the last one that you
	send usually, you know, if you have to make
	corrections, you make the corrections. And
	information, if you have to.
	Sure. Okay. Great.
	When I show you things, it's not attesting to
	it, but -
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	Mm-hmm.
	- I'm going to ask you
	just to initial and date, and that's just to
	say, specifically, that this is the document we
	looked at, and when we spoke. It is absolutely
	not attesting to it.
	Mm-hmm.
	It's not saying that this
	stuff is accurate.
	•: And so, I write the date --
	If you could -
	- and put reviewed on it,
	or -?
	-- nope. Just your
	initial and date.
	I'm just going to do this
	last one, just the top of it. I'm not going to
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	have you do every single one. And I'm going to
	put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and
	I'm going to hand it to my friend over here.
	:
	What's the date? The 18th?
	MR.
	1: 27th.
	_: 27th.
	MR.
	1: 10/27/21.
	Thank you, sir, for
	initialing and dating that. All right. I'm
	going to just actually, because it's the
	timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me
	because we might have to reference it.
	: I can tell --
	: All right.
	: - this is going to be a long-
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	ass interview.
	It's going to be pretty
	long. That's where I was trying to --
	: Yeah. Just -.
	- you know? All right.
	So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you
	recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate
	Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall?
	: I recall the investigation
	that couldn't determine if they had an
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	altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt
	at suicide.
	All right.
	So --
	Yeah.
	- so, something happened
	on the July 23rd -
	Something happened --
	- where Mr. -
	:
	-- in his cell.
	: - Epstein was found
	with, like,
	a - was it a noose around his neck?
	_: It wasn't determined. It
	was, you know, that he was laying in his cell,
	but I don't recall the specifics of the report.
	But I know it went back and forth where there
	was a suicide attempt, or an issue with inmate
	: Tartaglione.
	-- with - yeah -
	Tartaglione. Yeah.
	: All right. So, these are
	emails that we reviewed with regard --
	Mm-hmm.
	- to that incident.
	Mm-hmm.
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	female.
	you.
	31
	So, this one is
	specifically from, it says
	Was that --
	:
	Yeah.
	-- your AW?
	That is the AW.
	: Send it to you?
	Right.
	: And this is a memo from,
	is the
	it says Mr.
	operations lieutenant.
	_: Yeah. Lieutenant. She's a
	Right. This is where I
	wanted to ask you if you knew --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- about this. It
	specifically says, so, it was originally, I
	guess, sent from Captain
	to
	--
	_ :
	Mm-hmm.
	: - from
	to
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	: And her note to you says,
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	"From the memo attached, the information I
	received is not what I was told happened."
	Right.
	So, what I wanted to know
	is, and I guess, would you like me just to
	refresh your memory, to really quickly read
	what she said happened, so we can figure out
	what it is that didn't happen?
	Okay. Yeah.
	All right. So, this is
	subject, "Possible suicide attempt." Again,
	July 23rd, 2019. It says, "On July -". Let me
	just sit back so you can just kind of read
	along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to
	you?
	No. No problem.
	I'm vaccinated, just so
	you know. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, at
	approximately 1:27 a.m.,
	• a call for assistance
	on the Special Housing Unit was announced by
	the control center.
	Upon my arrival, I was
	informed that an inmate had attempted suicide
	and proceeded to cell Z05-124LAD. I observed
	inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054,
	lying in the fetal position on the floor of his
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	cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers.
	2
	He was breathing heavily, and was snoring.
	3
	I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him
	4
	flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His
	5
	neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no
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	further injuries to his person. An attempt was
	made to get the inmate to stand on his own,
	with negative results. The inmate was placed
	in hand restraints, and staff was directed to
	retrieve the stretcher.
	As inmate Epstein was being placed on the
	stretcher by responding staff, he would open
	his eyes and observe staff. When staff made
	eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut
	his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit."
	Was it that? The health care?
	: Health. Health Services.
	: "Dressed in a suicide
	smock, and placed on suicide watch. While
	awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion,
	inmate Epstein sat on the
	of the bed and
	began moving forward, as if was attempting to
	fall over, head first. When I looked away, he
	straightened up. As I turned to look at him
	again, he attempted the same act. I laid him
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	1
	down on the bed, and directed him to cease his
	2
	action or he would be placed in restraints for
	3
	his safety.
	4
	At that moment, he stated, 'Okay. I won't
	5
	do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because
	6
	of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was
	7
	made to have the staff member observe inmate
	8
	Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make
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	staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke
	with
	who stated that Inmate
	Epstein was alert and had indicated that his
	cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas,
	had attempted to kill him, and had been
	harassing him.
	He stated that the inmate had indicated
	that he had informed his attorney of this
	matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate
	Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was
	asleep with his headphones on when he felt
	something hit his legs, and said, 'Jeff. What
	are you doing?' He didn't answer. So, he got
	up, turned on the light," or - so, yeah - "He
	got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a
	string around his neck.
	He stated that he then called the guards,
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	and they ran down. Upon further questioning,
	inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the
	bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein
	because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on
	the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when
	he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or
	stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that
	Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to
	the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't
	responding.
	He stated that the last time he saw him,
	he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein
	stated that he comes in from a legal visit at
	approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a
	copy of the daily news. Nick was on the floor
	reading the daily news. He stated that he had
	given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione
	mentioned that he had been in court all day, in
	Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was
	carrying on.
	At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused,
	as if he was making the story up, as he went
	along, and stated that Tartaglione stated,
	"These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is
	inhumane. I wish I could report it.
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	Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit
	motherfucker.' He then turned to a page in the
	daily news that had his picture on it, and
	stated that Epstein was worth 77 million
	dollars.
	Epstein then stated that he took his
	picture, balled it up, and threw it in the
	garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened
	prior to staffs arrival. He stated that at
	approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to
	get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30
	minutes. He remembered walking back to his
	bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his
	cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen
	staff, why didn't he respond when we were
	calling out to him.
	He stated that he only remembered hearing
	himself making a noise like snoring. When
	asked about the allegations against his
	cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt
	him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical doctor
	-" how do you pronounce that name?
	:
	Beaudouin.
	B-E-A-U-D-O-U-I-N. "Was
	notified and briefed. It was determined that
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	no further medical attention was needed. A
	medical assessment was not conducted at the
	time of this incident, due to the fact there
	was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m.
	Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate
	Epstein was examined and treated by M-I-P-Y."
	Joaquin.
	Joaquin. J-0-A-Q-U-I-N.
	"For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base
	of his neck. One section on the front, with
	marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his
	left knee." So, sorry that that was so
	lengthy. But so, again, the question would be,
	is this, does anything in here strike you as
	inaccurate?
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	NO.
	So, when
	says that in the attached memo, "The
	information I received is not what I was told
	happened." Do you know what she is referring
	to?
	: I think she - if I recall -
	that she told, that said that it was an
	attempted suicide, but then she got any
	additional information that it might have been
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	Epstein and Tartaglione having an issue in his
	cell.
	4
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	: And what, and my
	understanding is that SIS came up with
	inconclusive findings.
	:
	In the investigation.
	What is your belief that
	happened?
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	: I can't speculate.
	: You don't -.
	1: I don't want -. I mean, I
	don't know, you know, with the injuries on the
	neck, I don't know if it was a suicide, and I
	don't know, based on Epstein's statement, that
	was something done to him. So, couldn't prove
	what it was.
	Okay. And is it, is
	there any reason for us to know or believe that
	it was one or the other, though? I know you
	are trying not to speculate, but -.
	: I mean, I would, you know,
	you have there be the medical department, who
	did an assessment, and, you know, typically,
	you could say you come to a conclusion from
	injuries, from physical injuries, but we
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	weren't even able to do that.
	: So, according to the
	medical assessment, your understanding is that
	they weren't able to tell if someone -?
	: That, from what I - if I can
	- and I don't know - I read it - but I don't
	know -. I remember on the report, they were
	unable to conclude what would, you know, what,
	what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he
	assaulted?
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	And were you satisfied
	with that response, or did you think that they
	missed something?
	: I think they looked into it.
	And I think it was, you know, you couldn't 1o0k
	into it any further. I mean, either -
	: Okay.
	: —- it was a suicide, or it
	was assault. So, we separated them.
	Okay. But there is -.
	So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or you
	weren't, you know -?
	: I mean, they interviewed
	them. They asked the questions. You had the
	medical assessment. So, I don't know what
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	other --
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	40
	Sure.
	-- conclusions could have
	:
	been drawn from it.
	: And what happened with
	inmate Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July
	23rd.
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	•: I don't specifically
	remember what happened. I know we separated
	the both of them.
	He wasn't - and then, I know
	he was on suicide watch. They placed him on a
	watch. And then had psychology talk to him.
	okay. So, just so, that
	is just so you know, if you don't mind just
	initialing and dating that one, that we just
	read. Okay. So, this next one is from
	Charisma
	to a Carrie Schleschinger.
	(Phonetic Sp. *00:30:05).
	She's a psychologist.
	Okay. And then, with
	UCC.
	Right.
	It says, "sw,
	chronological log, re: Epstein." It says,
	"C.O.
	was assigned to staff watch.
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	However, the wrong book was used. I am
	companion 1og, in lieu of staff suicide watch
	1og."
	41
	Mm-hmm.
	Was that something
	normal? Was that an easy mistake?
	: yeah, I could see it
	happening because we have a log that the
	inmate, you have an inmate companions that
	watch inmates. So, they use the log. And
	then, you have, if staff are going to sit on
	someone, then they use a certain log. But the
	fact that, you know, the documentation took
	place, it was just, you know, it was just an
	error.
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	this
	: Okay.
	: But they did document, so.
	Now, c.o.
	Is
	that you, are you aware?
	: I had two
	I don't
	know which one it was.
	Okay.
	So, if I tell you
	it was --
	Officer
	No, no, no. It had to be
	1, because if it was C.O.
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	he would have been - his title is material
	handler.
	Okay. So, you don't
	believe it was actually
	:
	No. I think it was the
	officer.
	It was Mr.
	Just from our records and from
	42
	speaking -
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	okay.
	- with Mr.
	Can I see the log --
	Sure.
	- how he opened the log?
	That is correct, right,
	Where does it show that he
	started his shift? Because usually, when you
	come on shift, you write -
	This is what -
	- the name.
	- was attached to that
	email.
	Yeah. Typically, when you
	start your shift, your start off, you know,
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	you're putting your name, if you are relieved,
	2
	or you assume suicide watch.
	3
	So, here is the next
	4
	email, so you might be able to show me an
	5
	example of what you are referring to. It's
	6
	this email, is it the same thing you were CC'd,
	7
	and this is, like, maybe this is the real 1og
	8
	that maybe he should have been using. But
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	here, it shows all the other logs.
	So, this is -.
	: Hmm.
	_: See, this is what I mean by
	when someone comes on duty, but this is what
	they leave -
	This is the -.
	- they mix the book up.
	But they must have wrote it in the suicide log.
	But typically, when you come on, let's say the
	shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full
	name, as assuming the duties.
	: okay.
	And you typically say who
	you relieved on there.
	All right. So, it looks
	like they maybe didn't fill it out correctly.
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	correctly.
	shows that it was
	23rd.
	44
	They didn't fill it out
	And so, our investigation
	--
	okay.
	- that was on him on the
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	Mm-hmm.
	And that wasn't an "I
	gotcha, " whatsoever. My question was actually,
	is the one that actually found
	him on August 10th. Correct?
	Yes.
	And is that suspicious at
	all to you, that he was the one that was
	watching him on suicide watch, and then that he
	is the one that found him on the 10th?
	: No. I mean, typically, we
	had so much overtime in the institution, that -
	and we go by when you sign up for it. So,
	there is a program that you sign up for, and I
	don't know how the lieutenant did. They might
	have called them, then he signed up for it.
	So, I don't know.
	I can't say if it was
	suspicious or not.
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	Sure. And then, all
	these documents that we're reviewing right
	here, on these two emails, what are they?
	Which one?
	Both of them.
	The suicide watch log?
	Yeah. So, is this
	suicide watch log, as well as this?
	_: Yeah. The suicide
	observation 1og, and this is appears to be the
	cover of a logbook, for suicide watch.
	Perfect.
	okay.
	All right. Do you mind
	just initial and dating this? And again, these
	aren't trick questions --
	Okay.
	- I just don't want to,
	like, put answers in your -. If I think it is
	something, but maybe it's not, you might be
	able to tell me what it actually is.
	This one, too?
	Yes, please. Thank you,
	sir.
	And this is, this says psych ops. So,
	this is another one of those emails. This one
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	is from
	to you. Also dated August 10th,
	2019. It says, "Psych ops is discontinued on
	7/30/2018." I think she means 2019. Correct?
	Mm-hmm.
	At 8:15 a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, is this also part of
	the suicide watch log?
	46
	: That is a log you would also
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	use.
	Okay. Great. And does
	it say in there, I guess right here, "8:15
	a.m., psych observation is being
	discontinued."?
	: Yes.
	okay. Awesome. Do you
	mind just initial and dating this? And
	as I am giving these to you, can you try to
	keep these in order with regard to -
	MR.
	1: I've just been stacking them.
	-- making a note. Don't
	stack them on tip, though, keep them, like,
	bundled together, so we know this is psych.
	This is, like, the psych observation logbook.
	MR.
	1: Okay.
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	So, if you can keep them,
	and then write a note on them.
	MR.
	1: Okay.
	So that when we are -.
	After this thing is transcribed, we can keep
	things in order. This one is regarding the
	first attempt, and the one we read from
	- And can you tell me, sir, what
	this is? This is July 30th. So, it is that
	same date that he came off of -. What am I
	looking at here?
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	: So, this is -. Date, name,
	signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is
	-. Is this a entrance log to the Special
	Housing Unit?
	I'm not sure. That's
	what I'm saying.
	: I'm just, I don't know. It
	might be an entrance log. This is 7/30.
	These are all dates, but
	at least up until 7/30, that he was in the
	Special Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein.
	So, I don't know if he would sign himself in.
	No, no.
	so - .
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	an entrance --
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	visits or something?
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	48
	I don't know. It might be
	Or is it to the attorney
	- it might be attorney
	visits. Let me see. 7/30. G tall (Phonetic
	Sp. *00:36:57). Signature. Inmate name.
	Name. This might be an attorney log. Name.
	Fall. Signature. Yeah. This might. This is
	probably an attorney --
	Mm-hmm.
	- the log into the attorney
	room. I think that's probably it.
	Here is Epstein again.
	It shows 7/30, 7/30, 7/30.
	:
	The different attorneys.
	He, you know, he could have had one attorney
	that comes in early in the morning -
	okay.
	- and then, any time a new
	one comes in, they have to sign in, saying who
	you came to see.
	: okay.
	So, he had multiple -
	So, this is -
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	*00:37:46).
	visiting this person.
	to put who --
	for attorneys.
	49
	-- (Indiscernible
	- an attorney 1og.
	This is an attorney log.
	He
	usually had multiple attorneys.
	So, it wasn't Epstein
	signing his name.
	They are -
	No, no.
	- saying they were
	Whoever comes and visits has
	Okay.
	- they are visiting.
	So, the visitor logs were
	Attorneys. Yeah.
	: All right. You mind just
	initial and dating that? And again,
	• if
	you want to write on here, just -
	MR.
	: Okay.
	- attorney logbook
	visit. So, again, so that we can keep track of
	what it is these things are. Now, is this the
	same thing we just looked at? This looks like,
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	again, it says, "Inmate companion assumed
	duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until
	7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred
	to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m.
	until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion
	was utilized."
	Mm-hmm.
	So, this one says July
	23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch
	chronological 1og.
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	: Mm-hmm.
	Inmate companion logs.
	Does this tell you anything more about
	, or anything different? What is this?
	This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us?
	That's just he's on it?
	: Yeah. It just says, you
	know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see.
	You got category. I don't know what the MDS
	is, but typically, it's an assignment. Like, I
	could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he
	was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So,
	this must be a medical term. Concerning his
	medical status.
	Okay. Great. And then,
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	this is the first page, it looks like, of the
	logbook. Does this tell you --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- anything different
	than what we looked at before, or is this the
	same thing?
	It's the same. It's an
	inmate suicide watch --
	Okay.
	-- log.
	So, it doesn't say
	on it, it just --
	: No. It says inmate
	companion was watching him.
	Okay. You said inmate -.
	Oh, so, this is an inmate companion instead of
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	--
	Yeah, yeah.
	- the actual. Okay.
	:
	You have --
	: I got you. So, whatever,
	does it tell us which, who the inmate was, that
	was his companion?
	:
	Inmate companion Estebon
	(Phonetic Sp. *00:39:51), and it has his number
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	right there.
	:
	inmate Epstein on -.
	too.
	52
	Okay. Great.
	Assumed responsibility for
	Perfect.
	: So, that's why I was telling
	you, the staff one should read just like that,
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	All right. So, this one
	is 7/23 is the actual inmate that was --
	: Mm-hmm.
	-- Epstein's companion on
	7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and
	dating that?
	MR.
	1: And this is right after the
	incident. The first incident, right?
	: This is - so, July 23rd
	or the 24th - yes, this is when he was on
	suicide watch, not on observation.
	Mm-hmm.
	And this is that, it
	looks like this one is, again, it's from you to
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	It says psych ops/suicide
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	1
	watch. And it looks like it's the difference
	2
	between the two.
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	Right.
	: In laymen's terms, what
	is the difference between suicide watch and
	psychological observation at the MCC, during
	this time period when Epstein was on it?
	: So, suicide watch is when we
	have determined, or there is a possibility,
	through what an individual is saying, that they
	might cause self-harm to themselves. Psych ops
	is, that person might not admit it, and we
	might not have anything to say to put them on
	suicide watch, so we just put them on what we
	call psychological observation.
	: And now, it was my
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	understanding --
	(Indiscernible *00:41:11).
	- it's basically the
	same thing, aside from what the inmate is
	allowed to have, such as clothes.
	:
	That, too.
	okay.
	So, is it same
	unit, same room, same --
	Same.
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	no.
	54
	-- same procedures?
	Yes.
	: Okay. The one thing that
	I've learned more recently is, though, during
	psychological observation, or I guess I should
	ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as
	psychological observation, is the inmate
	allowed to have attorney visits?
	: If they are on that watch,
	: What about during
	psychological observation?
	: I think it would be the same
	thing, that they are not allowed to have. And
	I'm not sure. Don't quote me to it. Because
	typically, when they are on that, we don't have
	it.
	: Okay. Do you recall if
	either yourself or anyone at the institution
	was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or
	Epstein's attorneys, asking that he be removed
	from either psychological observation or
	suicide watch, so that he, for any reason?
	: They will always call.
	I
	mean, they would. There was always a number
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	subject, whether it was to place him in general
	population. So, I don't, you know, recall -.
	Do you remember ever
	being called by a judge?
	: No, I don't. I don't
	recall.
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	Okay.
	Speaking with a judge.
	All right. Because that
	was the rumor we heard, was that a judge
	contacted you and said they wanted him removed
	from one or the other.
	: No. Judges wouldn't
	typically call for that.
	: But the attorneys
	frequently would?
	: Yeah, frequently, they
	would, you know, call our legal department,
	saying, you know, why can't he go to general
	population. Why is he, you know, being housed
	here? And just not him, if there was any type
	of equipment that was requested. Those are the
	type of requests you get from the attorney.
	Okay. And do you know if
	those attorneys were made, though, when he was
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	on either suicide watch or psychological
	observations?
	I don't recall that.
	: You don't recall.
	No.
	Sure. That's fine.
	Mm-hmm.
	Do you know - I know you
	said that, and you didn't think that inmates
	typically could - but do you know if Mr.
	Epstein visited with his attorneys during that
	time, between the 23rd and the 30th of --
	I don't know --
	- (Indiscernible
	*00:43:28)?
	- if he was on that status,
	then he would not have been --
	: You don't believe so?
	-- I don't believe so.
	Okay.
	No. I don't believe
	SO.
	No problem. All right.
	So, this, this one again. Oh, do you mind
	initial and dating that?
	:
	Mm-hmm.
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	an incorrect -
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	previous question.
	57
	okay,
	• you can
	file that accordingly. This one just goes back
	to that first initial timeline, that looked
	like it may have been a little messed up. The
	initial email from you, it looks like it's a
	psych ops. "The logbook shows he was released
	on July 30th. He had an attorney visit,
	starting at 8:20 a.m.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	He was there all day.
	I
	will send the attorney log next." And then,
	response was, "The timeline we
	sent DOJ says 7/29.
	Where did we get that
	date?" So, are we confident that he stayed
	until the 30th?
	]:
	He stayed until the 30th.
	Okay. So, was this just
	•: I think that was a typo.
	- okay. Oh, sorry.
	you mind initial and dating?
	Well, this answers your
	Do
	What's that?
	About being on psych ops and
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	seeing an attorney. He didn't go until after
	he got off.
	Well, it says that he had
	an attorney visit --
	Right.
	: - starting at 8:20 a.m.,
	but it doesn't say if he had any prior to that
	time.
	:
	released on July 30th.
	Right. Oh, because he was
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	Right.
	okay.
	So, just saying, like,
	yeah, he was released and --
	Mm-hmm.
	- he was visiting with
	his attorneys.
	Mm-hmm.
	And that's something
	we've had a little bit of a conflicting
	information.
	Mm-hmm.
	We've heard that he
	actually did have attorney visits during that
	time. And we've heard that he didn't. So,
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	that's why I was wondering if you would be able
	to clear that up at all, but you're not --
	Mm-hmm.
	- to your recollection -
	-
	No.
	-- he wouldn't have?
	Yeah. Typically, if you are
	on that, you're not going to have an attorney
	visit.
	: And just talking to
	psychology, they would, they said that, no, we
	always try to afford an inmate - they have a
	right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford
	that right. But do you think that maybe they
	were mistaken?
	: I'm just going from my
	experience, like any other of the inmates that
	we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an
	attorney visit.
	: Okay. Now, this,
	speaking of psychology, that's the next point.
	Let me just make sure that all the information
	is on that incident. So, as far as
	Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is -.
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	selection made?
	decision?
	60
	How do you think it's -?
	Tartaglione.
	: okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay. So, did you have
	any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as
	Epstein's cellmate?
	We did.
	Okay. And how was that
	: So, we weren't able to get a
	whole lot of people, you know, think that how
	we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was
	a white male. Another high-profile case. So,
	and he is not, you know, there is this
	misconception that he was a big hulking
	bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something
	pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and
	frame. So, we said that would have been an
	appropriate cellmate for him.
	And who made the
	Io put them together?
	: Mm-hmm.
	I did.
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	Okay. Was it in
	coordination with both the captain, as well as
	Everyone - yeah - would
	discuss it, like, you know, I, obviously, I
	sent it up the chain, to say, look who we're
	going to make him his cellmate, and what was
	the reasoning.
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	So -
	Yeah.
	- in talking with the
	captain, his recollection was that he brought
	the three names, you discussed it with Mr.
	he was present for that discussion, and
	is the only one who said, I want
	Tartaglione, put him with Tartaglione. Do you
	recall it to be that way, or do you recall it
	to be -?
	:
	talking about Tartaglione?
	which -? Well, are we
	oh, did that happen with
	Reyes?
	: Well, Reyes and - what do
	you call it? - Reyes and, there were two names.
	So, I talked to my boss about it. They wanted
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	to see the names.
	So, I don't know who they
	talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the
	email, and stuff, with all the break down of
	the two inmates to the director's office.
	(Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And
	because he was the chief of staff at the time.
	And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in,
	about as far as if we had to choose between who
	was going to get it, was the - what was it? -
	the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like
	-
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	Efrain Reyes?
	- Reyes, that Reyes would
	be the most appropriate because we couldn't
	find anybody.
	Okay. So --
	: And then, they went up, and
	then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes.
	Okay. So, Reyes was when
	the -. So, your superiors actually made the
	selection, but for -
	:
	Tartaglione.
	- Tartaglione, that was
	you?
	I mean, it was in
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	conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know,
	the powers that be that this is who we're going
	to be, and it came back and said, you know,
	we're good for that.
	: Okay. Do you know what
	Tartaglione was in for?
	: He had - I know it was a big
	drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff
	like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible
	*00:48:45) -
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	: Some kind of narcotics.
	_: —- huh?
	: Some kind of narcotics.
	: Some kind of narcotics. So,
	he - and then, I don't - and I recall there was
	murder involved, too.
	: Yeah.
	: But he was a high-profile
	case.
	So, I could -.
	I had gentlemen in there
	that were trying to get in there, but you know,
	they would have probably harmed him. I had
	another pedophile in there, and everybody in
	the unit, they know who's in the unit, I'm not
	taking him as a cellmate. You know?
	So, we
	can't just arbitrarily force another inmate
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	into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was,
	you know, the best -
	: The other inmates --
	-- inmates -.
	: - would not accept Epstein,
	nor would not accept a pedophile.
	:
	They weren't going to -.
	They just weren't going to stab Epstein
	*00:49:29). I don't know the reasons. But I
	mean, I can't make the decisions and say, all
	right, I'm going to force you to take this, and
	then something happens to him, and then -.
	50r
	someone actually
	spoke with Tartaglione and he said he was
	willing to do it?
	: And I'm not sure on there -
	who spoke to him, but I don't know.
	: Okay.
	: It might have been. But I
	know we said we were going to put him in, and
	this is, this is what -. And he didn't have
	any issues.
	: Okay. And if someone did
	speak with him, who would that have been?
	Would that have been captain?
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	65
	It might have been the
	captain. Shoot, (Indiscernible *00:50:02).
	But it probably would have been the captain,
	but -
	okay.
	: - you know, typically, you
	know, we're going to make a move, and we're
	putting somebody in there, we're not going to,
	you know, sit down and consult with an inmate,
	if that's okay with you. I mean -
	Sure.
	- we just have a feel of
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	the unit --
	NO.
	- that, who is appropriate
	to go in there, okay, I'm not going to put a
	drug dealer in there with him. So, you know,
	typically, another high-profile inmate would be
	appropriate.
	: Okay. Now, do you have
	any reason to believe that Tartaglione did, in
	fact, try to harm Epstein on July 23rd?
	: Again=, I can't speculate on
	that.
	Sure. Just because -
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	I mean -.
	- it would be pure
	speculation, if you did?
	: Yeah. It would be.
	I would
	be speculating on that.
	okay.
	I can't -.
	okay.
	Yeah.
	And you just prefer not
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	to do that?
	Yeah. I don't want to
	speculate.
	okay. Now, so, our
	assessment from other people has been that --
	Mm-hmm.
	- Tartaglione was trying
	to beat his case --
	Mm-hmm.
	- and that he had every
	reason in the world not to harm Epstein. And
	that Tartaglione was actually the person who
	notified the guards that Epstein was in need of
	help. Is that what you -? Is that a correct
	assessment?
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	at the time.
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	attorneys.
	67
	: Tartaglione wasn't in the cell
	So --
	On July 23rd, he was.
	- he was. So, he --
	: He was. Oh, I --
	-- yeah.
	: -- yeah, right.
	: Yeah. So, here's how I'm
	going to put this. As far as Tartaglione, we
	and his behavior in the institution, he wasn't
	a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you
	know, with a cellphone. You know, making
	calls, you know, and circumventing his case,
	and whatever. But so, I don't, I can't
	speculate on, you know, whether he would do
	something, or he wouldn't do something. So,
	that was, you know, my dealings with
	Tartaglione, when I was aware of him. Plus,
	you know, his case.
	: Mm-hmm.
	And the request from his
	okay. So, following
	Epstein's time on suicide watch and
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	psychological observation, was he placed back
	in the SHU?
	Yes.
	: Okay.
	So, and I
	apologize to read all these, but this is just -
	again - we're not going to through them one by
	one, but just to show what it is that we have
	here. So, this one says it's from an
	to
	Did I get this from you?
	I think this is something that forwarded on.
	: She say even gave your own
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	drinking --
	This one says, "Can you
	send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide
	attempt. Thanks." That was from
	it looks like, sent it up. So,
	said, "I need this ASAP." And it
	says, "Here are his notes."
	So, he said Niro (Phonetic
	Sp. *00:52:59). I guess the regional is
	requesting it.
	okay. So, the region
	wanted this?
	Yeah.
	So, this, is this what
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	this is?
	Epstein?
	69
	Is this the psychology file of
	Those are clinical notes.
	So, these are all
	clinical notes --
	Yeah.
	: -- here?
	Mm-hmm.
	Would this have been,
	like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July
	31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it
	looks like these are clinical notes from the
	day he got there --
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	Mm-hmm.
	- up until July 31st.
	Right.
	I wonder why. Why would
	they only send until July 31st? Do you know?
	: You said --
	Not August.
	- they sent from where?
	Well, it --
	From -?
	- started from the day
	that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July
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	8th, 2019.
	*00:53:53).
	-
	70
	Right.
	: To July 31st, 2019.
	:
	It's any encounter you have
	with him. Any medical -
	: So, did they not -
	-- (Indiscernible
	- have any encounters
	after July 31st, 2019?
	: Do you know?
	: No. I am not aware of that
	because it would only - they would only
	annotate if they had encounters with him.
	okay. So, you are
	unaware of, after July 31st, if anyone had any
	kind of, any psychology had any interactions
	with him?
	No. If it's not in the BEMR
	notes, and that, I guess they didn't have any.
	So, you would assume that
	:
	Yeah.
	: -- there wouldn't be?
	Okay.
	Do you mind initialing? And do you know
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	why that would be?
	2
	: Hold on. If an inmate is
	3
	cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them
	4
	about it - but most inmates didn't, once you
	5
	are cleared off of suicide watch, they have
	6
	other things that they do. You can come down
	7
	and they give you some (Indiscernible
	8
	*00:54:42) courses to take. So, they have
	other types of therapy, but it doesn't
	necessarily have to be entered in as a medical
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	encounter.
	Okay. So, this is, so,
	psychology could have been still meeting with
	them, just not noted as a medical encounter?
	: Yeah. You - I mean - you
	see them, and you can just, like, if you have
	patients, you will go, how is everything going?
	You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm
	okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a
	medical encounter.
	: Okay. So, your
	involvement with this, being that he came off
	of psychological observation on July 30th,
	should psychology had interacted with him more
	in that type of setting, where they would have
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	mean, when -
	72
	been writing clinical notes? Or do you --
	No. I think they -
	: -- or -?
	-- did everything. Because
	they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on
	the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive
	whether he committed, you know, tried to --
	Sure.
	-- attempted to commit
	suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but
	if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I
	wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do
	it, that's their assessment of it.
	Right. No. I guess what
	I'm saying is that, I know you're not a
	psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that
	they cleared him to go back to the SHU --
	Mm-hmm.
	- do you think that they
	should have continued at least checking with
	him, or no?
	well, they probably did. I
	okay.
	- you make your SHU rounds.
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	You know, seeing him in other parts of the
	institution. So, and you would have to ask
	them. But there were probably encounters with
	him.
	okay.
	: But that didn't require --
	: A report.
	: - a report, and a medical
	annotation in there.
	Okay. So, this next
	email, it talks about, it says, "Warden
	," and this is from
	and
	again --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- is he the coordinator?
	Of, who is he?
	Oh.
	: Oh, here it is. National
	suicide prevention coordinator for the BOP.
	_: Right.
	: It says, "Thank you for
	supporting our scheduling of the psychological
	reconstructive for inmate Epstein. I will be
	joined by
	(Phonetic Sp.
	*00:56:44) Correction Service Administration of
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	the Northeast Region. So, do you know if that
	was ever completed? The actual suicide
	reconstruction.
	:
	They might have, but nobody
	talked to me.
	Okay. They didn't talk
	to you?
	Nah.
	Okay. Fair enough. And
	then, behind it, it looks like, just, it 1o0ks
	like a template is attached here.
	"(Indiscernible *00:57:00 national suicide
	prevention program, suicide reconstruction
	materials."
	Mm-hmm.
	Would have you been the
	one that would have gathered these things for
	him?
	:
	No. You probably -.
	Typically, when this happens, this comes from,
	when I used to do them, I would make contact
	with someone in the institution, to get it.
	So, you might -
	Mm-hmm.
	-- have the executive
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	assistant --
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	75
	Yeah.
	- get the information.
	So, it says, "I am
	attaching a list of materials we use to
	complete the reconstruction. We routinely take
	these documents with us, so please ensure that
	a copy of any documents you also need."
	:
	Right.
	: It says, "Your assistance
	in gathering these documents, appreciate it,
	will be helpful." So, you would just, you
	would provide that to, like,
	or
	someone?
	: Yeah. We tell the exec,
	hey, I need you to gather this information, and
	it might not be
	. It could be the
	chief psychologist. Whoever is assigned to do
	it.
	okay. But as far as you
	know, was that completed? Did he show up and
	do that?
	I wasn't at the institution.
	: oh, okay.
	I --
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	institution.
	from the institution?
	afte that?
	okay.
	76
	So, you -
	- I was removed from the
	- when were you removed
	Monday.
	Yes.
	Monday, August 12th?
	Okay. That's what I was
	kind of asking you before. Maybe I wasn't
	clear with my question. I was wondering if
	something happened to you after this, that you
	were removed and no longer --
	: No. They just told me, go
	report to the region.
	- all right. So, as of
	Monday, August 12th, 2019, you were no longer
	at the MCC?
	I was no longer at the MCC.
	And did you ever go back
	No, I didn't.
	Okay. So, that was -.
	Well, I did today, to go
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	park.
	any -.
	77
	Okay. But after this
	instance, and you were not really involved
	after that, then?
	: That was it. I didn't have
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	: Yeah. You check in today.
	Did you just say?
	: No, I had to park a vehicle,
	because I had to -. I had the government
	vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so I
	parked there, and took the train out,
	(Indiscernible *00:58:46).
	MR.
	: I think when we started, and
	asked when you started at the regional
	office, I think you mentioned 2020.
	: So, the problem is, and he
	was talking about job title. My job title
	still remained the same.
	MR.
	: As warden?
	: As the warden in New York,
	and it wasn't removed until 2020.
	MR.
	1: Okay. Well, now, but as of
	August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the
	region?
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	place?
	your way.
	question.
	78
	Yeah. DRD (Phonetic Sp.
	*00:59:14) came. I did my - when was it? - I
	had an interview at the U.S. Attorney's Office.
	And then, my boss came and said, hey, I'm, you
	know, we're signing you up to the regional
	office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why
	I was being removed. And I was just told to go
	up there. So, that's what transpired.
	MR.
	1: Was there another warden in
	: They brought another one in.
	MR.
	1: So, there was two people with
	the title of warden, at that point?
	well, they had
	(Phonetic Sp. *00:59:52), and Lacome Vitale
	(Phonetic Sp. *01:00:01). She is.
	MR.
	1: Okay.
	: All right. So, if you
	don't mind, just initialing and dating that.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	We'll get that out of
	So, this looks like this answers our
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	So, this is an email from
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	AW
	to yourself.
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	psychologist at MCC?
	psychologist.
	79
	Mm-hmm.
	: And it just says, "FYI,
	from Dr.
	I, regarding her last interaction
	with Epstein, prior to her departure on
	Thursday."
	Mm-hmm.
	DI.
	was the
	Yes.
	Correct?
	She was the chief
	Okay. Great. And it
	says that, "I visited inmate Epstein in SHU on
	Thursday." Thursday, meaning August 8th --
	Right.
	- 2019. "He was getting
	ready to meet with his attorneys for the day,
	so I had gone to visit him, right after the SHU
	meeting.
	Mm-hmm.
	: He had a cellmate at the
	time, with whom I saw him interact with. He
	did not report any medical, or any mental
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	health concerns, and he denied any suicidal
	thoughts or intention.
	He was asking the
	writer to go to general population and was
	making requests for various leads he had at the
	time. He wanted social calls without them
	being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he
	had left in the suicide watch area.
	His mood was not depressed or anxious.
	There were no signs of stress. He had planned
	on meeting with his attorneys to work on his
	legal situation." So, there is that. And
	then, there is also, I don't know if this was
	attached.
	, I don't know how this was
	printed, but it also looks like all the
	contacts. It says, "15 contacts in one month.
	Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived.
	And after the -". It does say that there was a
	contact that looks like, on the 31st.
	: What does he mean by
	"contact"?
	A psychology contact.
	• okay.
	And then, here's one,
	8/1/2019, Dr. Imeri, SRA, was --
	Yeah.
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	- being conducted. What
	is SRA?
	Do you know?
	: It's a seg group.
	Segregation review.
	: oh.
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	So, it says -
	Yeah.
	form. Suicidal tendencies."
	-- it says, "Court sent a
	No. That must be a
	psychological thing. I thought it said SRO.
	If it says SRA, that must be for SHU.
	Okay. And it says, "On
	August Ist, 2019, he denied any suicide ally,
	friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive
	Jewish against his religion, still denied
	knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when
	he was discovered with a string loosely tied
	around his neck. Said his incident report for
	self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is
	talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in
	SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going
	back to his normal life." And again, it say
	that the 2019 was with Dr.
	what I just
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	Right.
	-- read. And on
	8/10/2019. So, I guess they did (Indiscernible
	*01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible
	*01:02:40).
	Yeah. You don't have to
	always.
	So, yeah, then maybe
	those weren't required.
	No.
	Yeah, do you mind, maybe
	the bottom on this one?
	MR.
	:Mm-hmm.
	: That wasn't attached to the
	email. That was just a separate document.
	Oh, that's a separate
	document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to
	psychology? All right. And this is the last
	one to cover what psychology. This was an
	email that was sent out by a
	Imeri.
	To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation
	update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it
	says, "Inmate Epstein is being taken off of
	psych observation and needs to housed with an
	appropriate cellmate."
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	83
	Mm-hmm.
	and it just
	says everyone who is attached to this sent,
	this was sent to.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	: Is this something that
	they normally do, after someone comes off of
	psych observation or suicide watch? Do they
	send this out to everyone? Or was it a special
	case for this?
	: No. It's typical.
	: That's typical?
	Typical. Because you have
	to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants,
	everyone know, you know, the person is coming
	off. And where to house them. Some go back to
	their units. In his case, he was going back to
	the Special Housing Unit.
	Okay. Great. Do you
	mind just initial and dating that? And that
	was - is it their job to determine if a
	cellmate has to be housed with another
	cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed
	with another inmate.
	Well, typically, I mean,
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	it's just - if there's nothing in policy that
	sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional
	setting, if somebody has been on, you know,
	attempted suicide, or attempted to self-
	mutilation, you usually put them in with
	someone.
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	: Okay. So, were you or
	your staff involved with the decision to have
	Epstein removed from suicide watch or
	psychological observation?
	: Psychology makes the
	determination that the individual is, you know,
	no longer suicide. This is for any inmate.
	: Sure.
	: Is no longer suicidal. And
	there is no reason for him to be on suicide
	watch. So, they either get released wherever
	they came from, whether it was the general
	population unit, or the Special Housing Unit.
	So, on background on
	that. So, one of the individuals in psychology
	department --
	Mm-hmm.
	- who would meet with
	Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this,
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	one of the steps down with Dr.
	as well
	as
	Mm-hmm.
	: And I was informed that
	that is kind of pretty routine, that that is
	conducted in coordination with executive staff
	members. Is that -
	Right. That is.
	- so, that's where I
	want to make sure that I'm understanding --
	: We do.
	- what you are saying.
	But we also do, we have what
	we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in
	our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly
	meeting, and if there are any issues, that's
	brought up in the meeting.
	okay. So, is it solely,
	though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes
	from, say, suicide watch to psych observation,
	and again, psych observation back to a housing
	unit? Is that their call, or does the
	executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside
	of psychology, have an influence on that?
	:
	Psychology are the subject
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	matter experts. They are the doctors. They
	release someone off of suicide watch. I can't
	- if an individual is on suicide watch - I
	can't turn around and come in there, and say,
	take him off.
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	Sure.
	I'm not a trained
	psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on
	there. But then, you know, after hours, or if
	it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide,
	any staff member could put him on there.
	: Okay.
	But as far as taking him
	off, you have to have a medical reason, as far
	as them coming off.
	: So, in that interview
	with that individual, they said the decision
	was discussed with
	and that
	individual concurred with that decision. If
	they didn't concur, though, would that matter
	to them?
	didn't concur with it?
	what do you mean, if the AW
	Mm-hmm.
	I mean, I don't want to use
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	the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're
	keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to
	take him off of suicide watch. Now, let's say
	I come in and interject and say, no, I want him
	on there. What is my reasoning for putting him
	on there?
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	Mm-hmm.
	: What medical degree do I
	have to justify keeping an individual on
	suicide watch? Because now, it could go the
	other way. I decide to turn around and do
	something like that, I would be having a
	conversation with you about something else.
	Sure.
	So.
	: Okay.
	Yeah.
	So, is it more to keep
	you apprise -
	To keep us apprised --
	-- if anything else?
	- you know, and saying,
	hey, this is the way we're removing an
	individual, and we move forward. I mean,
	obviously, we will have questions. You know,
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	if we had questions.
	: Guys, I want to go for a
	second. All right?
	:
	Okay.
	: I got to go pee.
	: Do you want us to
	continue or wait?
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	: No, just stay by me. Oh,
	don't continue. I'll be right back.
	: Absolutely. I'm going to
	pause this recording then. It is currently
	3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021.
	This is Special Agent
	and I
	am pausing the recording.
	(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went
	off the record and back on the record).
	All right. The recorder
	is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick,
	short break.
	just reminding you
	that you are under oath.
	_ :
	Okay.
	All right. Sorry.
	Address these.
	:
	oh.
	All right. So, the last
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	that we discussed was that psychology said that
	Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this
	is where we talked a little bit about it. It
	sounded like the decision to have Efrain Reyes
	placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made
	at a higher level than yourself?
	Yes.
	Okay. And who made that
	decision?
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	I don't know. Listen. I
	know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually,
	the two inmates that would kind of figured out
	there might be a cellmate, we sent those names
	to the director's office.
	: Okay.
	And it was
	was
	the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss
	told me that they had to run it up to the
	department. So, I don't know who was spoken to
	in the department. And it got back, and my
	boss said that, too, you know, that's a good
	choice.
	okay.
	Yeah.
	And that's
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	again?
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	90
	Yes.
	: Okay. Great. But it was
	based upon a list that you provided?
	_: Yeah. There were some
	names. Because I - fast forward - I got a
	call, and we were gearing towards getting him
	out to general population.
	oh, so, you wanted
	Epstein to actually be in general pop?
	: I didn't want -. That's
	what typically happens. You know -
	: Sure.
	- you don't want an inmate
	in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot
	of high-profile individuals that come in the
	institution. You know, we do our intelligence
	gathering, to see, okay, what would be an
	appropriate unit for them to be in? And we
	place them. And then, we monitor them. If,
	you know, and that is how we move them into
	general population. I get a call saying, hold
	up on that. He needs to stay where he's at.
	: And who called you?
	: Did he qualify as a pedophile?
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	didn't --
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	I don't -. I didn't -.
	: Okay.
	: Read. But that's -.
	We
	: Yeah.
	: — you know, so that's not
	feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So,
	get a call, and they said hold up on that. He
	needs to stay where he's at.
	: Okay.
	:
	So.
	: And I'm sorry. Who was
	it that called you to say stay?
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	And then,
	that's when I had to send up the names. I
	guess he had gotten some from the department.
	I don't know who he talked to in the
	department.
	oh, so, coming out of
	psych observation, you were looking to send him
	back to general pop.
	No.
	: Or not back to. Into.
	When he first came in, the
	:
	whole process was --
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	population.
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	92
	Oh, I see.
	- to get him out to general
	I gotcha. So, back, you
	are talking about July 6th through the 8th --
	Yeah, we're talking about --
	- that timeframe.
	- the whole thing, and
	then, even, you know, coming out of psych
	observations when he got in, the plan was still
	to get him into general population.
	Mm-hmm.
	I mean, we had the attorneys
	contacting our legal, why can't he be in
	general population?
	Sure.
	:
	So, and then, that is when I
	got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't
	know who he talked to in the department - but
	it was, like, hold on.
	: And on that note, I guess
	this would be a good time to talk about this.
	Being that it was ultimately decided that he go
	into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit,
	was it discussed at all that he be placed on
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	inmates?
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	Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs
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	: So, here's the problems with
	Ten South. It's the terrorist unit, and
	there's SAMS things in there. The amount of
	attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn't
	have those attorneys coming up to that unit
	every day, and, you know, breaching the
	security of it, and then, tying up the movement
	in there, because
	when an attorney comes in
	there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it's
	planned, and they are in there. Epstein' s
	attorneys were coming in early in the morning,
	and weren't leaving until late at night. And
	it was about four or five of them. So --
	: And guess who's paying his
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	bill?
	- right. That's not an
	appropriate unit, and that's not what that unit
	is for.
	: Now, what about, like,
	if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp.
	*01:11:55), or some of the other high levels
	that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with
	that, or did they have attorneys visiting them
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	or no?
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	: They did, but it wasn't to
	that extent. Like, he, E1 Chapo would have his
	attorneys come in, but they came in for a
	couple hours, they left. As it got close to
	trial, then they would - you would see them
	more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one at
	attorneys, they were in there from the
	beginning to end. We even had complaints from
	the local attorneys, that they were taking up
	the rooms.
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	Mm-hmm. So --
	..
	So.
	: - the primary reason why
	he was placed in Nine South was because of the
	attorney visits?
	: Well, not the attorney
	visits, but that is the SAMS unit.
	: Okay.
	: And he's not a SAMs inmate.
	And then -.
	: What's a SAMs unit?
	: Special Administrative
	Measures.
	That means, you know, strict
	communication. And there's a lot that goes on
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	with that unit. So, he wasn't appropriate to
	2
	be up there.
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	: Now, were some of those
	other high-profile inmates, though, such as El
	Chapo, and who were some of the people that
	were in there?
	:
	Yeah. The terrorists up
	there.
	But the non-terrorists.
	Meaning, the people that -. There was a few -
	: Well, you had Sholty
	(Phonetic Sp. *01:13:05), but he was in for
	espionage, and had a SAMs on him. So, he --
	Now, did E1 Chapo have a
	SAMs on him?
	-- he had -. No. His
	status was based on, and I know there was
	(Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status --
	Sure.
	- and stuff. So, he was a
	high profile person that had escaped from
	another prison before --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- so, that was an
	appropriate place to place him.
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	: I see.
	Sholty was in general
	population, and a SAMs was placed on him by his
	attorney --
	: What was the other name again?
	: - Sholty. And he was
	placed up there.
	: Can I ask you --
	: Yeah.
	: - a totally irrelevant
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	question?
	Mm-hmm.
	: What was El Chapo like?
	: Just like any other inmate.
	: Is that right?
	Yeah. Just like any other
	inmate.
	: Polite?
	_: Polite. You know, no
	problems. But that wasn't the appropriate unit
	to be housing inmate Epstein.
	: Now, did you even have
	the authority to place him in Ten South, if you
	wanted to?
	I mean, I could have, but I
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	would have had to have, you know, some
	justification as to why I'm putting him up
	there. And there would have been push back
	from his attorneys.
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	Okay. Because some
	people had mentioned that, saying the warden
	doesn't even have the ability to do that. That
	comes from a higher level.
	_: I mean --
	Is that --
	-- in essence --
	-- accurate, or -?
	-- in essence, it does
	because I would have had to explain and justify
	why, you know, certain inmates with certain
	crimes are placed up there. Why am I placing
	him?
	Mm-hmm.
	:
	And then, the fact that, you
	know, he is a pre-trial individual, and needs
	access to his attorneys, that unit is just too
	restrictive for that.
	Now - and this is a total
	Monday morning quarterback --
	Mm-hmm.
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	placed.
	98
	- do you stand by the
	decision that he would be in Nine South, or do
	you think he should have been in Ten South, or
	what are your thoughts on that?
	: I think he was appropriately
	okay.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, Nine South -
	- was the --
	That was the appropriate -
	- appropriate place for
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	him?
	- place for him.
	okay.
	MR.
	: Quick question.
	: Mm-hmm.
	MR.
	: Do you recall if there were
	inmates in Ten South during that time?
	Where?
	MR.
	: In --
	: Yes, there were.
	MR.
	1: -- yeah. Do you know who
	those inmates were?
	: El Chapo had left. I got
	the one that ran the call with people in
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	in there for?
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	99
	Brooklyn. He was there.
	: What was his name?
	: I forget.
	: What did he do? What was he
	_: That's the one that killed
	the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran --
	: oh, yeah.
	- the vehicle into them.
	: Yeah, and then the guy kicked
	the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy --
	Yeah.
	: — (Indiscernible *01:15:28).
	: He was there. I remember
	Sholty. There was another guy that was, it had
	something to do with Osama Bin Laden.
	: Mm-hmm.
	_: Who else? We had a younger
	terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it
	was -. They were all terrorists in, on
	espionage charges.
	: All right. So, this is
	along what we were just discussing. It says
	that, this is from an
	who's just
	a supervisory staff attorney.
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	for?
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	100
	Right.
	What does this CLC stand
	:
	It's the Combined -. He's
	the supervisory attorney for Brooklyn and New
	York.
	Okay.
	At the time.
	So, he's kind of, like,
	the general counsel for Brooklyn and New York?
	: Yeah. He was the
	supervisory attorney. So --
	okay.
	-- he was in charge.
	: All right. So, this was
	to you, and it was on Saturday, August 10th,
	2019. It says, "Warden, per our conversation,
	I spoke to two of his attorneys yesterday,
	August 9th, 2019, primarily in relation to his
	request for access to water in attorney
	conference."
	Right.
	"Attorney Mariel Colon,"
	so, M-A-R-I-E-L.
	Next word, C-O-L-O-N. "With
	whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had
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	asked, as an aside, whether we would consider
	housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre?
	Cadre is the camp.
	: Is that low level?
	It's like our lower security
	inmates. Yeah.
	So, you have an actual
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	camp at the MCC?
	: It's low security inmates.
	But remember, they are designated. So, we
	couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre-
	trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial
	inmates together.
	Okay. It says, "I
	advised we could not," since he was a pre-
	inmate.
	Right.
	: "Later that day, but
	prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to
	attorney
	on the phone. He had
	asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone
	in the SHU, to which I replied that we could
	not, based on his prior suicide
	attempt/gesture."
	: It's just, I've never heard of
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	his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers
	would be somebody that I was familiar with.
	: Yeah.
	Since they're probably
	charging him $2, 000 an hour.
	"He acknowledged that he
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	understood. To my recollection, neither
	attorney referenced consideration for suicide
	watch or psychological observation during
	yesterday's conversation.
	Please let me know
	if you need any further information." Now, was
	this just a request to any contact that he had
	with his attorneys?
	: He was just keeping me
	informed because the attorneys were calling
	every day, with different types of requests.
	: But this was the day,
	obviously, of when he was found. So, this
	would --
	Right.
	-- he's talking about
	context, just literally the previous day --
	:
	Right.
	- that he was looking
	for different housing type arrangements.
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	103
	Mm-hmm.
	But all right. If -.
	: That was $1,000 a phone call.
	Excuse me?
	: That was $1,000 a phone call.
	(Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging.
	Oh. Now, this answers
	our question from before.
	So, this actually
	says, it's from you to
	, it says
	attorney logs. This is that same thing that we
	were looking at.
	_ :
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	Okay.
	So, it looks like July
	30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And
	again, all these -
	These are the attorney
	assignment.
	-- (Indiscernible
	*01:18:43).
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So, that does now
	clarify what it is, because, previously, there
	was nothing that was in the subject liner.
	okay.
	Or the body. Okay.
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	was off.
	10th, 2019?
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	Saturday.
	104
	: Yeah. I'm looking at the
	stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ.
	We're coming to - hey -
	we're almost halfway through.
	Mm-hmm.
	: Well, that's the way you're
	looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A
	little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking
	about, I'm going to miss today's workout and
	tomorrows.
	Well.
	Now, you've already
	answered this, but did you work at the MCC on
	August 9th?
	For that --
	: 2019.
	- was Friday. Friday, I
	What about on August
	:
	10th was a Saturday --
	: Correct.
	- I was, I worked on
	All right. But did you
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	I came in.
	work.
	105
	work in response to this?
	: No. I had to respond, if
	the day of the suicide was August 10th --
	: Mm-hmm.
	- yeah, I had to respond if
	okay.
	So, but you
	weren't scheduled to work?
	: No. I wasn't scheduled to
	All right. This is just
	for - and this is going to be put in here, in
	case you need to reference it - these are
	emails that were from you to
	• with
	the staff roster.
	_: Right.
	And the reason I'm using
	these is because these were literally sent on
	Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can
	rely on these --
	]:
	Mm-hmm.
	: - based upon being so
	close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th.
	It's showing who was working that day. And
	this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again,
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	showing who was --
	MR.
	1: This is a correctional
	roster.
	-- correct.
	MR.
	•: okay.
	: Correct. This is a
	correctional roster. Right.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, who was, basically I
	think, involved with Epstein during that date?
	So, yes. How many rosters would there be,
	aside from correctional?
	: Well, the correctional
	officers are the only ones that keep a daily
	roster.
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	Like, R&D wouldn't do
	anything like that?
	: No. Because their staff are
	already assigned to where they are working at.
	okay.
	Yeah. And they have rosters
	that show where everyone is working at. But
	not, like, the correctional officer roster.
	okay. So, I'm going to
	have you just initial and date. I'm going to
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	place this, again, here, just in case we need
	to reference it, and again, it's just if we
	need to look at who was working, and what
	position --
	There's two on there.
	: - and what. Yes,
	please. So, this one would be for the August
	9th, that one is for August 10th. This
	actually was not - the August 10th one - was
	not attached to your email. Right?
	MR.
	: Yeah. You are right.
	So, the August 9th one
	was attached, but the August 10th wasn't.
	MR.
	1: Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So, we had to pull
	that from --
	Okay.
	- just for full
	disclosure, but just so that we have both. The
	August 9th one was something that you had sent.
	All right. Since Epstein was required to have
	a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to
	make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of
	this requirement?
	: That they were notified?
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	108
	So, how -.
	So, Dr. Imeri
	or Mrs. Imeri sent out that email, saying -
	Mm-hmm.
	- Epstein is required to
	have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed.
	Right.
	Who was required to make
	sure that staff that is working in the SHU is
	aware of that requirement?
	:
	Well, the captain passes it
	on to the lieutenants, and the officers are
	then made aware that he, you know, any inmate,
	if they are required a cellmate -
	Mm-hmm.
	:
	- that, you know, that he -
	they are to require cellmate, if somebody
	leaves or goes out.
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	: Now, someone such as an
	Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide
	watch, you know, a week, a week and a half
	prior, should all staff know that that person
	is supposed to be housed with a cellmate?
	: In the Special Housing Unit,
	anybody working in there would know that he was
	supposed to have a cellmate.
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	109
	: Do you believe that there
	was any anybody - especially anybody that's got
	a quarterly bit of post there -
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	- but anybody that's
	working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do
	you believe that there could be a reason why
	they would say, we didn't know he was supposed
	to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be
	an acceptable excuse?
	: Because you had the staff
	that usually work up there, were up there. It
	should be, it should have been annotated on his
	- what do you call it? - it's called a 292.
	: The hot list, you are
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	referring to, or -
	: No. Not the hot list.
	: — or what? Oh, you
	mean,
	oh, the 292. You're talking about the
	SHU --
	Yeah.
	-- file.
	The SHU file. It should be
	annotated on the SHU file because, when you
	come in, you have to annotate on there his
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	1
	meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it
	2
	would have been on there, it would have been on
	3
	there, too. So.
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	: Would it have also been
	on the hot list, though?
	: Guys. I need an interpreter.
	: Yeah.
	What does the hot list mean?
	It's just --
	That's --
	-- sorry.
	- yeah. I guess the high
	risk suicide inmates.
	Yeah. So.
	: Whether it's suicide, or high
	risk for some other kind of problem?
	It could be -. It's mainly
	for, like, suicide, just to --
	: Medical.
	- to watch out for. Yeah.
	Medical. Okay.
	: Seizures. You know, stuff
	like that?
	:
	Yeah. So.
	So, point being is, do
	you think that, if any staff that is working in
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	that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - -
	Right.
	-- in the morning of
	August
	: 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the --
	Mm-hmm.
	- the morning of August
	10th.
	Mm-hmm.
	SHU staff that is working
	in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically
	gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate.
	Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse
	for them to say that we didn't know he was
	required to have a cellmate?
	: No, because they did know,
	because I - from what I understand - someone
	wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that
	they knew.
	Okay. Well, yeah, we can
	get into that. Now then, so these are -.
	: One other question. I want to
	open a box.
	Absolutely.
	: That means I'm going to have
	to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going
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	to bother anybody?
	No. No.
	No. No.
	No, no, no, no.
	: Okay.
	I'm sorry, I thought you
	were talking about, like, this hypothetical
	situation of if we were in the MCC or
	something.
	Yeah.
	• oh, no.
	No. This is just a -
	-
	You're just wanting to
	know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's
	fine.
	: Yeah.
	I guess we should wait
	until he gets --
	_: Mm-hmm.
	- back again. If we
	speak loudly, will you be able to hear our
	questions?
	Yeah.
	: All right. We're going
	to continue, then. The answer was yes.
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	somebody.
	MR.
	office.
	MR.
	MR.
	knife.
	113
	I don't know if that was
	1: There might be clients in the
	oh.
	Huh?
	: Okay.
	: That's why.
	Then we will wait.
	: He wasn't kidding about the
	Oh.
	: You know why I got this? This
	movie called Gangs of New York.
	: That's a great movie.
	And he - and a good movie -
	and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron
	Diaz.
	Sure.
	: And I had a wild eyed crush on
	Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife -
	seriously - I found the guy who made the knife
	that she carried in the show, and I said, I
	want you to make me an exact duplicate. How
	sick is that?
	Of that knife. And so, this is
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	it.
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	114
	That's super cool.
	: So.
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	Mm-hmm.
	Sorry. I'll ask a few
	more questions before we get into these
	documents. Were any plans made on how to
	address this situation for if Reyes was removed
	as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because
	I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave.
	(Indiscernible *01:26:13).
	: No. I mean, the plan would
	have been, you know, we would have assessed it,
	because usually, you get ahead of time, we
	would have just said, okay, when is -? When
	Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving,
	then before he was placed back in that cell, an
	assessment would have been made.
	:
	Okay. Now, what is your
	understanding of what happened with inmate
	Reyes on August 9th, 2019?
	: When I got back after the
	fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him
	from the institution.
	Okay.
	So, there is a lot
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	1
	of people we've talked to thought he went to
	2
	court, and that at court, it was determined he
	3
	wasn't coming back. Had you heard that?
	4
	:
	That's what I heard, too.
	I
	5
	had heard he was going to court. And then, I
	6
	guess word got back that he wasn't coming back.
	7
	That's what I heard. So, I never got
	8
	(Indiscernible *01:27:00).
	: It's either a good day in
	court, or a bad day in court.
	: Yeah. I never got the
	actual story because I was, I was removed. So.
	Okay. And again, what
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	does WAB mean?
	: It means With All
	Belongings.
	okay.
	But I don't know, and I
	don't know if people will say that he left, and
	then they went and got him from the office.
	So, I am not sure.
	okay. So, this is -
	Yeah.
	-- one of those documents
	that says --
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	you.
	the subject.
	Cellmate."
	116
	Mm-hmm.
	-- from Charisma
	to
	Mm-hmm.
	With inmate Epstein as
	Right.
	And it says, "So far,
	this is the documentation I have in my
	possession."
	: WOW.
	Mm-hmm.
	: And if you see, you know,
	here, it talks about all the documentation
	pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP
	database --
	Right.
	: - things. Then down
	here, it says, "Documentation re: Reyes, Efrain
	Mm-hmm.
	: --
	: Right.
	Right.
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	through R&D.
	117
	It says, "Court
	documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -
	'19.
	: -- '19.
	Mm-hmm.
	And then, also SHU file.
	So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB
	8/09/19." What documentation is she referring
	to there?
	I guess whatever came
	Mm-hmm.
	Our Receiving and Discharge.
	They might have gotten -. They must have
	gotten information to release him, and that he
	was being transferred.
	So, would it be at all- I
	know R&D creates something called, like, a
	court production list, or --
	: Right.
	- would that be what
	she's talking about, the court production list,
	or would she be, do you think --
	:
	So --
	- or, like, a PP-38, or
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	118
	something, or whatever -?
	: I think, and I'm speculating
	now, it was probably the court list, and it
	probably said, we're sending him off to court.
	And it was a possibility that he might be
	getting released.
	Because the document that
	has been alluding me --
	:
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	Mm-hmm.
	-- is that court
	production list. Do you know if that was ever
	obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that
	R&D creates this list, they provide it to the -
	-
	oh, the court -
	- different housing
	units.
	:
	know what they do with it.
	- list. I don't. I don't
	They just, they all say
	they -
	Now --
	- destroy it after that
	time.
	Yeah, they do, but --
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	119
	But --
	- with him --
	: - but that's what would
	have been used by the SHU staff, in order to
	produce Reyes to the R&D.
	: No. Not necessarily. What
	typically happens is, the R&D staff will call
	up to SHU, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He
	has court. Or he's being released. So, there
	wouldn't have been a document sent up.
	So, everyone that we
	talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this
	document.
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	: Right.
	: And the SHU staff,
	including the OIC, said, yes, we had
	documentation showing that he was WAB. So
	then, and they all said it was because it was
	this court production list that you sent out
	emails to -.
	Unless it's sent in the
	early morning.
	: And it's not something
	that's sent electronically. It's something
	they said that they generate, print out -
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	120
	Right.
	-- and hand to
	different, the ops lieutenant has one, every
	housing unit has one.
	Internal goes around and
	collects people, based upon it or something. I
	think. And then -
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	So --
	- then they basically
	destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing
	is maintained in the system. They just use a
	template, and create a new one for every day.
	: So, that must have been the
	early court movement. So, I was under the
	impression that he was, he left in the
	afternoon. So, when typically in the
	afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey,
	we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he
	had left that afternoon.
	: Okay.
	So, is it, then,
	are you not - then to answer that question -
	are you not sure exactly what she's referring
	to when she says "court documentation regarding
	WAB"?
	: Like, the way you explained
	it, then that means they were talking about
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	morning courts.
	were --
	--
	121
	Well, that's what they
	Yeah.
	- I'm just talking about
	Yeah.
	-- specifically, what
	she's talking about in this email to you. Do
	you -?
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	: But when you say WAB, with
	All Belongings, it depends on the time of day
	they left.
	Mm-hmm.
	You know? You could have
	afternoon court, and you don't have that list
	generated, and they say -
	: But if --
	- we need all his
	belongings.
	:
	Yeah.
	this in
	front of you -
	_:
	Okay.
	- this might help --
	- and then, we will keep
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	122
	- this might help
	explain this. So, this is an email that was
	sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone
	named
	(Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50).
	Mm-hmm.
	On Thursday, August 8th,
	2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of
	prisoners from NYM -
	:
	TO GEO.
	-- to GEO.
	Okay.
	The following prisoners
	are to be transferred." The second person
	listed out of the two is, "Reyes, Efrain."
	Right.
	\|. "
	Mm-hmm.
	"Please schedule the
	transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include
	seven days medication with the medical summary.
	Thank you."
	sent to R&D. Correct?
	_:
	Right.
	Right.
	So, this obviously was
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	: Do we know what kind of
	medication he was taking?
	Well, that's Efrain
	Reyes.
	We're not talking about -.
	That's Reyes.
	we're not -.
	: I know. I just am curious.
	It's not --
	: We don't know?
	Yeah.
	: -- relevant.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	123
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	•
	21
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	I don't think it's
	relevant. Here is another email that the U.S.
	Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at
	Georgios. G-E-O-R --
	okay.
	--
	It says, "Prisoner production." It
	looks like it was sent to custody.
	Mm-hmm.
	On Thursday, August 8th,
	2019, at 3:36 p.m. And then, this, this
	document, prisoner schedule report is attached.
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	And --
	MR.
	one.
	124
	: You're looking at the second
	- so, for the MCC --
	Mm-hmm.
	- it shows right here,
	the second person listed as Efrain Reyes.
	Mm-hmm.
	And it just says, "TF,
	transfer within. MCC New York." And right
	here, it says, Judge MCC Tot, I-O-I. GEO.
	Mm-hmm.
	What I was told, that
	means that he's transferring from the MCC to
	GEO. Is that --
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	Mm-hmm.
	- your understanding?
	Yes.
	: And then, on this one,
	this is the PP-38. On the third - for
	8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows Reyes,
	from Z06-22.
	And that means the SHU. Correct?
	:
	Yes. SHU.
	To pre-remove.
	Mm-hmm.
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	clear.
	what place?
	facility?
	the Marshals?
	125
	At 8:38 a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, this was 8:38 a.m.
	He's keyed out of our system. We got these two
	emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying
	he's being transferred.
	: So, wait. Let me get this
	He's being transferred to what place to
	From the MCC to GEO.
	: And what is GEO?
	_: A contract facility.
	: And what is a contract
	: A private prison.
	: Okay. And you had nothing to
	do with -? In other words, somebody else
	decides to go from one place to another —-
	:
	Yes.
	: - you (Indiscernible
	*01:33:11). Okay.
	The Marshals -.
	: And would that be the judge or
	The Marshals, I guess.
	The
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	judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but
	they -
	Prosecutors. Marshals.
	Yeah.
	Judge.
	: okay.
	: All in coordination, make
	those determinations. But, and then, here is
	an email from you to
	Mm-hmm.
	With what you are talking
	about, that memo.
	Right.
	It says, "On Friday,
	August 9th, 2019, " but before we even get into
	that, now that you have seen this, you have
	seen these two emails.
	Mm-hmm.
	: From the Marshal Service
	on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D
	actually keys him out.
	•: Right.
	All of them say pre-
	removed or transferred.
	_ :
	Mm-hmm.
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	out.
	127
	Does that now tell you
	anything about this, court documentation
	regarding WAB?
	: Yeah. Now, it explains that
	they had gotten a court order to have him go
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	So, what do you think is
	referred to that court documentation?
	_: I guess it must be all of
	these documents right here.
	This?
	Yes.
	So, what we're actually
	looking at, you think she's referring to?
	That's, I think, that's what
	she was referring to.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	So, court documentation
	meaning, documentation from the Marshal
	Service, saying that he was going to be
	transferred?
	: Right.
	: All right. Now, based
	upon what you are looking at here, specifically
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	128
	from the Marshal Service --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- and the fact that
	Efrain Reyes, whom -. Is it -? I've been told
	that everyone at the MCC knew who Reyes was
	because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate.
	Mm-hmm.
	But at the very least,
	everyone in the SHU should have known who
	Efrain Reyes was.
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	: Right.
	: Because he was Epstein's
	cellmate. What should have happened once, on
	August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late
	as 3:33 p.m., the day before Reyes is
	transferred, what should have happened?
	As far as Epstein getting a
	cellmate?
	correct.
	:
	Right.
	The notification is being
	made that this person is being transferred,
	everyone gathers him up. And so, what this,
	I'm going to read this just to give you more
	information --
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	129
	Right.
	- on his backtrack.
	This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th,
	2019, to the warden - yourself.
	Right.
	: From
	who, my
	understanding is he was the OIC of the SHU at
	the time.
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	:
	Right.
	It says, "Subject passed
	information from Special Housing Unit." So,
	"On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at
	approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS
	passed onto oncoming staff member, Officer
	Officer
	1, and present shift staff, Sos
	, that inmate Reyes was going
	and
	WAB, and possibly may not return.
	Mm-hmm.
	Also, that inmate Epstein
	will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from
	his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't
	state is that Officer
	,, or SOS
	walked, I mean, both Epstein -
	: I'll go get that.
	-- as well as Reyes, down
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	to R&D --
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	130
	Mm-hmm.
	- with all belongings.
	Mm-hmm.
	Spoke with both Epstein
	and Mr. Reyes, and stated to Mr. - I think
	Reyes stated to I
	- make sure you get
	him a cellmate.
	:
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	Mm-hmm.
	I'm not coming back. And
	responding to Mr. Epstein, saying,
	"Don't worry. We're going to get you a new
	cellmate."
	Mm-hmm.
	: Now, with all that
	information, being that he is the OIC, he's
	working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB.
	Mm-hmm.
	We've got all this stuff
	going on.
	Mm-hmm.
	This is the real big
	reason why I want to talk to you -
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	-- as the warden.
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	131
	Mm-hmm.
	This is kind of our
	primary purpose -
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	Mm-hmm.
	- for us being here.
	So, I apologize if you're going into that, but
	I want you to have all the information --
	Right.
	- before I answer. What
	should have happened here? So, R&D is
	contacted the day before, or two days before
	Epstein, or Epstein is found. One day before
	Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both
	custody, as well as R&D.
	Right.
	R&D pre-removes him at
	8:38 on 8/09.
	Mm-hmm.
	The SHU OIC walks him
	down, to R&D --
	Mm-hmm.
	: - and actually has this
	conversation with Epstein and Reyes, saying, I
	know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new
	staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate.
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	Which means - WAB means what?
	With All Belongings,
	neans they're not coming back.
	: But Epstein is not coming
	back?
	MR.
	NO.
	His cellmate.
	Reyes.
	: Reyes.
	: His cellmate.
	: So, the theory is, if you are
	investigating, somebody says that you're not
	going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that
	conversation, or present during that
	conversation, is Epstein?
	: Epstein is present. Yes.
	: Okay. So, Epstein knows that
	he's not going to have a cellmate for the
	immediate future?
	No. Epstein is going to
	attorney conference. So, he's going to be --
	: No, no, but I'm saying --
	- in attorney conference
	until about 7:00 p.m..
	: - that Epstein knows that,
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	1
	over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to
	2
	have a cellee.
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	No.
	the OIC,
	tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are
	going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes
	back from attorney/client, his attorney visit.
	: okay. So, Epstein would know
	that he hasn't - going to have a cellmate.
	: Yeah, yeah. So, this
	isn't part of the theory. What my question to
	your client is, what should have happened based
	upon the knowledge that he was WAB?
	The
	contact with the Marshal Service, telling him
	that he's being transferred. The fact that
	R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D,
	and R&D actually logged him out of our system.
	What should have happened?
	: So, what should have
	happened was, this information should have been
	passed up to the supervisors.
	: At what point?
	: See, with the, this
	information coming in, as far as, you know,
	when R&D --
	Mm-hmm.
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	lieutenant?
	134
	- typically, it would come
	up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up
	to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the
	lieutenants should have been notified.
	Okay. And which
	:
	Whoever was the SHU
	lieutenant, whoever was the operations
	lieutenant.
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	Now, on this case --
	It the -.
	-- the SHU lieutenant is
	also on leave.
	Right.
	: So, we've got the chief
	psychologist on leave, the warden on leave, the
	SHU lieutenant on leave. But we do have an ops
	lieutenant, we do have an activities
	lieutenant. And we do have a captain.
	: So, you should have let the
	operations lieutenant know, if you didn't have
	a SHU lieutenant. They, in turn, would let the
	captain know, and the captain would push it up
	to the execs then. Then, we would have to come
	to a determination on who we were going to
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	house with Epstein.
	returning back.
	MR.
	:
	1: Yes.
	135
	Now, if the operations
	lieutenant, his name is
	Right.
	--
	Right.
	: --
	Right.
	If he says, yes, I know
	Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at
	court --
	No. You mean --
	- and he might be
	- Reyes is gone.
	So,
	knows
	that -. Sorry, did I say Epstein?
	: Yeah. You said Epstein.
	Yes.
	knows
	that Reyes is gone.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	But I think he's at
	court, and then, he might not be coming back.
	I didn't pass this information onto my relief,
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	who was
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	136
	\| (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59).
	Mm-hmm.
	However, as our
	investigation has revealed, the ops lieutenant
	also has one of these court production lists,
	that lists Reyes --
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	Mm-hmm.
	-- as WAB.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	With that knowledge, is
	that a reason that he thinks that he went to
	court, and might be coming back?
	: I can't interpret what his
	thought process was, but if it said, you know,
	he was leaving, and I don't know what he was
	reading at the time.
	: Right.
	: He could have been reading,
	because sometimes the inmates do go out to
	court and come back. So, I don't know. I
	can't speak to what he read. Or why he made
	that determination.
	: So, listen, wouldn't have most
	inmates, when they go to court, come back?
	The point being here --
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	What I'm saying --
	-- he didn't go to court.
	Yeah.
	: He was transferred.
	He was transferred.
	MR.
	: And I know you might have
	covered this, in your understanding, in your
	experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed
	as WAB --
	MR.
	Mm-hmm.
	-- With All Belongings --
	: Yeah.
	MR.
	1: - what is your
	understanding? Are they coming back or are
	they gone?
	That means he's
	transferring.
	MR.
	where they come back?
	1: Has there been situations
	•: There have been -
	: - situations that, you
	know, they go out and they have to have them
	sending them back, if there was an issue.
	MR.
	: Is that a unique situation,
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	or it happens quite often?
	: No. I wouldn't say. I
	would say that it's probably unique. But
	usually, WAB, they're gone.
	MR.
	1: So, as the operations
	lieutenant, if you see somebody listed as WAB,
	should he have understood that that person is
	gone, and not coming back?
	: Should have. But then,
	you're talking off the document. I don't know
	what document they read. So, I don't want to
	speculate what, you know, was it, you know,
	send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't
	know what document. But I'm saying, if it is
	this document, that clearly stated WAB.
	Okay. But as far as your
	concern, it doesn't sound like what you were
	saying is,
	who was the OIC at the
	time, should have he notified the ops
	lieutenant?
	Yes. Whoever is - yeah - in
	there should have notified the operations
	lieutenant, hey, Reyes left, and --
	: He needs a cellmate.
	- he needs a cellmate,
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	shift --
	139
	So, would it fall
	Okay.
	solely on the shoulders of
	: No. I mean, okay, so,
	here's the other checks and balance. So, what
	about the other people on the other shift?
	That's my question.
	Yeah.
	So, or --
	I mean --
	- or the people that are
	working on his same shift.
	- yeah. On his own same,
	so, who --
	-- if it was the
	notification should have been made to the
	operations lieutenant. Or the captain. And
	said, hey, cellmate left. He needs a cellmate.
	okay.
	: And that cellmate would now,
	at some point, he goes back to the cell, but
	that's at the end of the day.
	: At the end of the day.
	: Okay. So, nobody is in a
	position to say, hey, he's in a cell by
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	140
	himself. Until the end of the day.
	: Right. But the information
	is passed onto each other. You know, when you
	And they are supposed to
	be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would
	notice that one cell had zero inmates in it.
	: Had zero inmates in it.
	: Yeah.
	So, I mean --
	: And that's what brings us all
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	to --
	Right.
	: - here today.
	So
	--
	Uh-huh.
	-- I mean, that's how it
	would have made, and when that got pushed up,
	we would have said, okay, we would have to
	formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for,
	for Epstein?
	And I apologize to ask
	this because, but, like, so, on each shift
	would be the OIC, that would be responsible for
	that. So, for instance, would
	be on
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	the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he
	would be the one to responsible to provide the
	ops lieutenant, but then, the following shift,
	would it be --
	141
	Whoever is the --
	: -- the next OIC --
	-- right.
	-- or would also the
	people that are working in that unit, the other
	SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is
	that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the
	OIC is really the person making that
	notification.
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	: Everybody has a
	responsibility for their safety. Everybody. I
	mean --
	Sure.
	:
	- I might be the OIC, but I
	have some responsibilities. If I know, okay,
	you know what? They might need a cellmate,
	because I, in essence, I can have an individual
	assigned to that post, and they're just filling
	in for somebody that, the regular person that's
	up there. And then, I have the regular people
	working up there, who are familiar with what's
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	going on.
	So, it's kind of everyone's
	responsibility. You know?
	: So, is everyone kind of
	equally responsible, then, for this? That was
	working there and didn't pass the information
	on .
	: Can you say? Don't guess.
	You know what?
	No, as the warden, he
	142
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	would be able to say.
	: I mean, it should have been,
	it should have been passed on. So, I don't
	know the dynamics to, as far as what was going
	on that day, who was working up there. What
	rounds were being made --
	: Mm-hmm.
	- up there. You know, was
	the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain?
	How busy they were.
	So, the lieutenant was
	not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not
	on. However, we do have records that the
	activities lieutenant at least visited —-
	:
	Yeah.
	-- the SHU --
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	You have --
	- at that point.
	-- you have two other
	lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are
	familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it
	is a very busy unit.
	: Yeah.
	You know, you're giving out
	showers. You're giving out recreation. You're
	doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know,
	running around all day, and, you know,
	sometimes things happen.
	Understood. But in this
	case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile
	inmate? At that time.
	: I mean, besides my terrorist
	inmates that I had up there on Ten South.
	Well, I guess, at least
	the Nine South.
	I would say he was a high-
	profile.
	Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate.
	: Is it, I mean, on that
	note, don't you think that they would have, you
	know, found it pretty important to notify?
	Especially they - and I don't know that we
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	brought this today - but there was even signs
	up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30-
	minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or
	something, you know,
	along the lines. Not, you
	know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like
	--
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	No, that was me.
	: Is that right?
	That was me. No. I mean, I
	mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean,
	so, no one could say that they didn't know.
	So, point being, there
	was, like, signs specific to even Epstein,
	check on this guy every 30 minutes.
	Right.
	You know, orange signs
	that are posted up there.
	Right.
	So, point being, with
	this --
	It should have been passed
	up.
	-- and that is where -.
	So, for us, I guess
	--
	Right.
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	- again, and I know that
	you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate
	on maybe saying, like, this person did
	something wrong, but really, who dropped the
	ball here? Knowing, though, that you could
	take a look, the day before, all these people
	are the ones who received the email --
	Right.
	know we see Lieutenant
	assuming
	MR.
	- in custody. And so, I
	•. I'm sure - I'm
	I would be on there.
	1: I think
	is on there.
	Who?
	Is
	on there?
	MR.
	: It's just --
	: I didn't see
	MR.
	:
	-- maybe.
	: But again, this one, that
	one is not even as clear. This one
	specifically spells out -
	MR.
	1: Yeah.
	- this one, you would
	actually have to go in and look at this
	prisoner's schedule report.
	: Okay. Let me just take a
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	look, just so I have, my mind is clear.
	There
	is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's
	schedule literally means prisoner's schedule.
	: Well, yeah. So, the
	prisoner's schedule report is something like
	this, but it will tell you that they are either
	going to, like, transfer, or they are going to
	go to court. Whereas this other document that
	was sent to R&D was just specifically about the
	transfer.
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	: Okay. But there is nothing
	that says recreation, personnel care. It's
	mostly going to and from court, or leaving the
	institution.
	: Yeah.
	Because it's a
	prisoner's schedule.
	: Okay.
	:okay.
	: Report.
	So, it's, like, what they
	are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's
	not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like,
	in the institution.
	• Right.
	It's a U.S. Marshal
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	Service report that they just provided to the
	BOP, so that they know which inmates --
	: Right.
	- they need to produce,
	and for what reason.
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	: Okay. Got it.
	Now, is that correct?
	Yes.
	So, yeah. Based upon
	what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and
	then again, what we know about
	at the
	very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was
	WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB.
	Mm-hmm.
	What should have happened
	there? Like, who, in your opinion here,
	dropped the ball?
	: I think at all levels, it
	was the checks and balance. If it went to the
	lieutenant's office, somebody should have
	picked it up. Working in the unit. It should
	have been passed up to the lieutenant's office.
	So, there were a couple of safety nets that
	could have caught it.
	So, pretty much everybody
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	dropped the ball?
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	: I mean, if we're looking at
	it like this, if you're saying going by an
	email being sent around.
	Well, not only the email,
	but I mean, the email, I can understand if
	people are busy and they don't always, you
	know, this one -
	:
	Right.
	-- it would be hard to -
	that one would be hard to --
	Right.
	- you know, say that you
	didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you
	know, the prisoner's schedule -
	Well, this one, I don't --
	- (Indiscernible
	*01:48:52).
	- I mean, I don't know what
	gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I
	don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. I
	think more --
	Well, this is -
	-- of a condensed version.
	- this is with this.
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	149
	Right.
	So, this was what was
	sent with this. This was sent specifically,
	just that. It's not a document. That's the
	body.
	Right. That was sent.
	: But that is, again, R&D.
	Right.
	But, which again, R&D -
	we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of
	custody. Correct?
	_: Right.
	But speaking with R&D,
	they said they would have produced this list,
	which SHU would have had, as well as ops
	lieutenant --
	Mm-hmm.
	- the lieutenant's
	office, all the housing units, which it listed
	Reyes as WAB.
	Right.
	: Do you know if they are
	actually looking - like, the lieutenant's
	office, people in the lieutenant's office, or
	the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are
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	they actually look at that list and saying, or
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	that's just based upon the busyness of their
	3
	day?
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	Yeah. I wouldn't speculate.
	I mean, I don't know. I can't say what —-
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	: Okay.
	- lieutenant is looking at
	stuff.
	I mean, it's, like, the documents.
	No. I mean, but should
	have they, I guess
	is the question?
	: As far as what? Emails that
	are coming through, on who's leaving?
	: No, no, no. This would
	be a physical paper that they were provided.
	Right.
	: Internal would go around
	and provide everybody with this physical paper
	that they create, and then, they apparently
	destroy it at the end of the day.
	: Right. So, I don't know if
	the, you know, when internal gets the forms to
	go, they are dropping it off at different
	units. So, I don't know if one was passed off
	to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I
	guess this probably be the only document --
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	151
	No, no, no.
	- they tear up.
	We are being told, by the
	lieutenants, as well as -
	Right.
	: - by R&D, they all have
	it, and they all, and it would all - and it
	would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven't
	found that document to show you this is what
	I'm referring to. But it's a document they
	apparently create, which they call the court
	production list. Are you --
	The court list.
	- yeah.
	I've heard of the court
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	list.
	But it's like a --
	And it -.
	- from my understanding,
	it is an informal document that they are just
	providing so that, you know, these are the
	people that we need to produce today.
	: For internal, yeah. The
	internal officer goes around and drops them off
	at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I
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	need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court
	list.
	Yeah.
	In the morning.
	Exactly.
	So, yeah, that's not
	anything that's kept on record.
	Right. So, I guess the
	question, though, being that they had these
	court lists, is another one of these checks and
	balances? Or is that really just for the
	Special Housing Unit?
	: I think they -. You mean as
	far as the court list, I don't understand your
	question, but -
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	: Yeah. It's just getting
	back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We
	were notified on the 8th. He left on the
	morning of the 9th.
	: Right.
	Epstein was found on the
	10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and
	we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have
	happened, and who didn't do their job? Is
	really the question.
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	153
	And like I said before, when
	the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew
	that he was leaving, it should have been passed
	up to his supervisor.
	: All right.
	: This guy is leaving. But
	then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is
	working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody
	should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy
	needs a cellmate.
	And notified the lieutenant
	that he needs a cellmate.
	: And that goes back to my,
	anyone that was working in the SHU, should have
	made that notification.
	_: Should have said it. It
	doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC,
	doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on
	you. It's everybody's job up there to say,
	hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what
	we need to do.
	: And would that be the
	case for,
	when he left during the day shift -
	_: Right.
	-- the next shift is the
	night shift, when he would have - I believe
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	during the night shift - he would have come
	back --
	Mm-hmm.
	- and again, if they
	were doing rounds, they would have noticed that
	Reyes wasn't there in the first place. But
	also, certainly, when they brought -
	Epstein back.
	: - Epstein back to his
	cell. There would have been no cellmate in
	there.
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	_: You should have known he was
	a cellmate.
	: And would it be the same
	thing for the morning shift? That they would
	know that Epstein was in there alone?
	: Because if the morning shift
	is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have
	realized he was in there by himself.
	: So, should have every
	single shift reported it to the ops lieutenant,
	that there is no one -?
	: Whoever caught it should
	have, you know, let's say one shift missed it,
	the next shift should have picked up and said,
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	you know, called and said, lieutenant, we got a
	- this guy needs a --
	: A cellmate.
	-- a cellmate.
	And again, I know we're
	Monday morning quarterback because of the
	result here, but what is your - as the warden
	of the institution, on these days - how do you
	interpret this? Is this a really significant
	failure on their part, the not have caught this
	and passed that information up?
	: It's not following the
	directive. I mean, and then, look at result.
	Right.
	So, I mean, the result is
	what, you know, caused it to be a serious
	matter.
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	: Yeah.
	to this memo, do you know why Mr.
	wrote this memo/
	okay.
	Now, as far as going back
	: I forgot. I might have
	called -.
	I might have called Lieutenant
	, and said - and I don't know if he was
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	156
	working - said, what happened up there?
	: Now, when you say
	because he was the ops lieutenant, or are you
	talking about
	• who was the SHU lieutenant?
	• who was the
	operations -. Because first, I know when I got
	back, somebody told me
	wasn't at work,
	because that was my first question. Who was
	the SHU lieutenant? Where they are at. And
	then, I think I did reach out to
	, and
	said, what happened up there?
	: Okay.
	And that's when I found that
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	out.
	with either
	And did you ever speak
	about this?
	No.
	: Okay.
	Because by the time I had
	gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the
	day of, when I had to go up to, I think the
	U.S. Attorney's Office.
	Okay. To speak with them
	about this?
	When I speak up to them, and
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	157
	them the agent had the memorandum.
	He already had it on him?
	He had it on him. Because
	he was during the interrogation, he presented
	it to the U.S. Attorney that was there.
	: And was that the first
	time you had seen it?
	: No. I think I -. I don't
	recall when I first saw it, but I know I had
	gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten
	it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then,
	given it to the IG. I forgot. I forget his
	name, and who was handling the case.
	For the IG?
	MR.
	_: Yeah.
	1:
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	If you weren't giving it
	to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have
	been Dave
	Because he sat in there with
	us.
	David
	So, he - I remember - he had
	a copy of it.
	Okay.
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	158
	Because we had told him that
	they knew that they were supposed to -.
	So, not including when
	you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did
	you discuss this at all with anyone from the
	BOP, such as
	or
	No. I just got the
	memorandum, and that was it. Because I was,
	like, wanting to know, like, what happened.
	The, you know, the directives were given. What
	happened?
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	And when you asked what
	happened, was there a verbal response?
	: It was a verbal response.
	: And what did you -? What
	were you told?
	: That they knew he was
	supposed to -. That
	to other individuals about it.
	had passed it on
	: Now, do you think that
	that -.
	What is your thought process of
	, who is the one who actually presented
	- excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is
	your thought of him now saying, you know, prior
	to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed
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	it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got
	to do it.
	Now --
	: Do you think he should
	have done it, passed the infraction on during
	his shift?
	: Yeah. Absolutely. It
	should have been letting the lieutenant know.
	Uh-huh.
	That, hey, this is - we got
	a guy that needs to be --
	MR.
	: A cellmate.
	: -- that needs a cellmate.
	: I should clarify that.
	_: What?
	MR.
	: I think on the elevator was
	Monge.
	Right.
	MR.
	: Monge was escorting Reyes
	down to R&D. And
	was escorting
	Epstein over to attorney conference. They just
	happened to cross paths, I think -
	: Yeah, they were together,
	though.
	Right?
	MR.
	: - yeah, but I think Monge is
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	the one that brought him down to the - Reyes -
	down to R&D.
	: Then that would make sense.
	Because if Monge is internal, internal takes
	him to court.
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	okay.
	And then, if somebody is
	going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then
	it would be SHU staff taking him.
	: All right. So, if Monge
	is the one who is actually providing him to
	R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he
	was WAB, to make any notifications?
	: I don't know if internal -.
	You know, Monge was internal, and I don't know
	if he knew, you know, the situation.
	: And typically, would it
	be internals job - if they come and collect
	somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell
	control, or the ops lieutenant, to say this guy
	is off our books, or anything, or -?
	: No. Because we have a lot
	of inmates that move in and out.
	: Sure.
	So, he wouldn't be able to
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	keep track of every particular inmate that is
	going and coming.
	okay. Basically,
	everyone had a share of responsibility?
	(Indiscernible *01:57:54).
	All right. Before we
	belabor this thing anymore, we want to just
	initial and date these both documents.
	We can
	get them out of your way and move on.
	: All of them?
	oh, yeah. Top of this,
	top of this.
	Okay.
	This guy. You know, this
	one.
	All right.
	MR.
	: Let me take this.
	Thank you, sir. Now,
	prior to this meeting, did you know that Reyes
	was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go
	to court?
	wait, prior to when?
	: This meeting.
	:
	Oh, no. I knew he -. I
	heard that. You know? After his death, that
	he was --
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	transferred.
	162
	Transferred.
	- removed. That he was
	okay.
	When I came in on Saturday.
	Were you required - or I
	mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service
	had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019?
	_: I was not aware.
	: No? Well, did anyone
	ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever
	make you aware that Reyes was transferred from
	the institution?
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	Prior to October 10th?
	: August 10th. 2019.
	I found out when I came in
	that morning, because I -
	Okay.
	- was, like, where is his
	cellmate?
	okay. So, you didn't
	know that he didn't have a cellmate on August
	9th?
	No, I did not.
	Now, who was ultimately
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	responsible to make sure that Epstein has a
	cellmate?
	: I mean, if it's the
	directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is
	working decide - passes it up, and then, that
	ensures, you know, to make sure he has a
	cellmate. So -.
	:
	So, SHU staff.
	Whoever was working up
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	there.
	Okay. When you say
	working up there, does that include, like,
	lieutenants doing lieutenant rounds and things
	like that? Or -?
	: Well, yeah, from what
	transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants
	didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based
	on the email that, you know, they knew he was
	leaving, but as far as when the finality of it
	was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone.
	You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his
	cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean,
	something should have went off on somebody to
	make some notifications.
	Okay. I know we're going
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	to talk about counts.
	: Mm-hmm.
	MR.
	: Mm-hmm.
	: Wait, wait. The notification.
	Would that go up as high as you? If someone
	would say?
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	:
	They would send it up to the
	lieutenants, then they would tell the captain.
	And the captain would let the associate warden
	know, and then it would get up to me.
	Especially an instance
	since you have a say in who --
	: Right.
	- gotcha.
	: We would have to sit down
	and say, okay, of all the available individuals
	that are on the unit now, who can we house
	Epstein with?
	Now, what about in the
	this case, where as you actually weren't
	working that day, would that -
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	-- should have they
	called you --
	Yeah.
	Whoever is --
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	warden.
	determination?
	determination to.
	165
	-- on the -?
	- whoever was the acting
	That would make the
	_: She would have made the
	who was the acting warden
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	that day, do you know?
	I don't know if I left
	or l
	in --
	Okay.
	- as the acting.
	One of those two.
	It would be one of those
	two.
	And it wouldn't be the
	NO.
	He's the executive
	assistance.
	Now, what is the
	difference between, like, an executive
	assistance and an AW?
	: The associate warden is a
	GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13.
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	Okay.
	So, they are not -
	-
	No.
	- but what, is that
	executive assistant just mainly to assist you
	in your functions?
	: He assists in the functions.
	I had also given him some other departments to
	monitor.
	Mm-hmm.
	: So, they manage, also, those
	other departments.
	Okay.
	MR.
	: I just got a question. I
	don't know if you may be asked him about the
	backup list.
	was there a backup list of names?
	For?
	: I think, I think we did
	talk about it, but if Reyes - we did --
	MR.
	1: Okay.
	-- but --
	MR.
	• sorry.
	-- when we talked about
	if Reyes was removed because the institution
	always has people coming and going --
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	167
	Mm-hmm.
	- so frequently, was
	there, like, a list that was set in place, that
	we would now consider these people, or would it
	be just the whole new -?
	: No. Because we would have
	to base it on who was there.
	okay.
	Because of the turnover in
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	the unit.
	MR.
	1: Mm-hmm.
	All right. Now, we're
	going to get into counts.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, this is an email sent
	It's the count slips
	from you to
	for --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- it was sent on
	Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m.
	_:
	Mm-hmm.
	This shows, ZA is the
	SHU.
	Correct?
	:
	Right.
	So, this says, at 8:10,
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	it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed
	by M.
	and Ms.
	Mm-hmm.
	And it says, that count
	was done, it looks like, at --
	12:01 a.m.
	- 12:01 a.m. And then,
	we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	It goes down to 72.
	Mm-hmm.
	At 5:00 a.m., there is
	72. And here is the count, the institutional
	count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m.
	Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m.
	3:00 a.m.
	I don't know why this is
	all out of order.
	5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00
	a.m., this says 72.
	72.
	MR.
	: I think that was just an --
	MR.
	: 72.
	1: -- attachment to that email
	that you sent.
	So, but as you know, as
	you notice, one of them said -. So, the count
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	slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the
	institutional count. And as you see here, for
	12:00 a.m., it said 72.
	: By the institution, you mean
	the SHU?
	169
	No. The institution.
	It means the whole.
	MCC does a count --
	:
	Yeah.
	-- and --
	: Right.
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	-- its' what the official
	--
	: The count.
	-- number show --
	Yeah. Okay.
	- the SHU, these count
	slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let
	you, you can answer my question. What is
	supposed to be the difference between what
	happens with the count slip, and what happens
	with the institutional count? So, I'm not
	answering your question.
	•: So, what happens is, on the
	shift, you call the count, and the different
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	count number?
	go around and count.
	inmate?
	170
	units call in the count to control center.
	: And how do they get that
	From counting. They have to
	: Physically counting an
	You have to --
	Correct?
	- physically count the
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	bodies.
	And then, they take that
	total amount of inmates, and they call that
	into the control center?
	: They call that into the
	control.
	: And where does the
	control center get their numbers from?
	: This is what is called an
	E1. Which is a print out of the number of
	inmates in each unit.
	: Right.
	: So, if an instance, for
	example, we look at BA unit. So, there is
	supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls
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	it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me
	it's a bad count.
	: Mm-hmm.
	So, they have to go back and
	count again.
	: So, the E1 is created
	based upon what inmates are listed within your
	system.
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	:
	Right.
	: The count slips are based
	upon how many inmates they actually count.
	What they count.
	: And the purpose of that
	is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates,
	and why are they providing that number to
	control?
	: So, we make sure every
	inmate is in the institution.
	The countability of the
	inmates. Correct?
	Yes.
	Great. So, the - so,
	does that answer your question?
	MR.
	_: Mm-hmm.
	So, the next email is
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	sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on
	August 10th. It says, "why did the count
	change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and
	3:00 a.m.?"
	response was to that?
	Mm-hmm.
	: Do you remember what your
	I don't.
	And then, this one is
	another one from Ray to yourself.
	Mm-hmm.
	It says, "The 12:00 a.m.
	count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. -
	E1.
	-- E1 says 72."
	Mm-hmm.
	So, those kind of go
	together. Do you remember what your findings
	were there?
	: I don't remember. Because
	typically what happens on the count, you are
	supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to
	take one count at night, and then review
	documentation. So, I don't know what happened
	with the discrepancy.
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	173
	: I mean, this isn't really that
	relevant, because we noted Epstein was there.
	1: No. It's relevant for
	our investigation.
	Right.
	: All right. So, if you
	don't mind, just initialing and dating that,
	and then, we can explain to you why that is
	relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You
	didn't find out what actually happened?
	: I don't recall what the
	response is I gave.
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	No? And do you remember
	looking into it at all?
	When was that sent?
	That was the day -
	When did he send it?
	- that was the day of.
	The day of.
	The day Epstein was
	found.
	: I don't because it was just
	so much going on.
	Yeah.
	That I can't really remember
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	what, how I responded to them on that day.
	: Do you remember learning
	anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of
	the counts, on the 9th and 10th?
	: What do you mean the
	accuracy and inaccuracy?
	: Like, if the counts were
	actually accurate or not.
	: I don't recall that.
	You don't recall --
	No. I can't think of that.
	- finding out about
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	that?
	:
	No.
	: Did you recall, did you
	find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not
	conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th,
	2019? By the SHU staff.
	: If they did rounds or not?
	: Correct. Did you find
	out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30-
	minutes rounds, as well as the institution
	counts on August 9th and 10th?
	: I don't know if it was after
	the fact that I was told that the Officer did
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	make their rounds. And I don't recall if it
	was, they put it in the logbook, that they made
	rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't
	done.
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	okay.
	: So, that might have been
	something that came up afterwards.
	: But you are not super -.
	You know, this, you don't really know what
	happened or didn't happen?
	: That day. Because I mean,
	it happened that weekend, everything was
	moving, and then, by Monday -
	Right. So --
	:
	- everything lese just
	changed. So --
	- but on the 10th or
	11th, you didn't hear -
	-- I didn't --
	: -- find out?
	- hear anything about,
	recall anything about that.
	: But had you heard that
	they didn't at least conduct some of their
	rounds and counts?
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	in the morning?
	176
	That they didn't?
	: That they did not.
	: It was - and I don't want to
	use the word that it was just, you know, an
	assumption, you know, like, because one of
	them, I had asked to come up and speak with,
	but it was
	and he wouldn't come up.
	And this was on the 10th
	:
	This was on the 10th, when
	we got him up, because I wanted to speak with
	him because people were telling me he was
	distraught.
	Mm-hmm.
	: So, I wanted to make sure he
	was all right. You know? And he just, he
	didn't want to come up and talk.
	: What are your thoughts of
	as an employee?
	: I've known
	a couple
	years. I never had any issues with him. You
	know, it was any, you know, like any other
	employee, you do something, I correct you on
	the spot, and that's it. But I have never
	encountered him to do anything, known him not
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	her about that?
	something -
	everyone?
	177
	to count, do his job, you know?
	What about Ms.
	: She was new. So, she had
	just gotten there. You know, she got the same
	spiel from me that everybody else does. You
	know? You are new. You can't do the things
	that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it.
	They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be
	following it.
	And did you -
	So -.
	- actually speak with
	: Oh, I do that in my
	(Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they
	first come in.
	Okay. So, that is
	: And I had -.
	- you would have said to
	oh, I said it clear as day.
	And same thing I would say in my ART class.
	Annual Refresher Training.
	: Because this is --
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	178
	(Indiscernible *02:09:34).
	- one of her excuses,
	saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them,
	they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it.
	Is
	that something you clearly entrust -
	So, here's my speech --
	- to her?
	- my spiel I used to tell
	people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20
	year guy, and you are on probation, guess what
	happens? He might get some time in the street.
	You're getting fired.
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	: And are you confident
	would have heard that speech from
	that Ms.
	you?
	She heard the speech from
	me.
	okay.
	:
	Yeah. I'm confident.
	That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing
	in the ART.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Good enough.
	So.
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	: All right. So, this is
	going to go back. This is just my little list
	that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then
	I'll read to you, but -
	Mm-hmm.
	: - I just want just for
	our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and
	you can refer to them. On this one, at first,
	going to be the count on the 9th, that was
	conducted at --
	MR.
	: 4:00 p.m.
	- is this 4:00 p.m. Is
	this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here?
	_: No. This?
	MR.
	1: 4:00 p.m.
	4:00 p.m. count. There's
	just signed off --
	No. There's no 4:00 p.m.
	count.
	MR.
	- yeah, it's the 5:00.
	1: 5:00. Sorry.
	Yeah. It's --
	Yeah.
	- 12:00.
	12:00.
	3:00.
	And 5:00.
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	MR.
	1: No, no. This is afternoon.
	Yeah. So, this is
	Friday. (
	: I'd say (Indiscernible
	*02:10:40) -
	All right. Friday. Is
	that a -
	: -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41)
	- 4:00 p.m. -
	MR.
	You told him about overnight.
	-- count?
	MR.
	:
	Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count.
	It's a 4:00 p.m.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Then 4:00 p.m. Then
	there is the 8:00 p.m.
	MR.
	1: No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00.
	4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m.
	Sorry.
	MR.
	: And midnight.
	4:00 p.m.
	10:00 p.m.
	Midnight.
	MR.
	I: 3:00 and 5:00.
	3:00.
	And 5:00.
	so,
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	these are basically the time period in
	question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through
	the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th
	and 10th.
	Okay.
	: Here are the lieutenant
	logs. And these are the emails that, again,
	I'm going, just going over these just because,
	so I'm not blowing things out of thin air.
	These are the --
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	were able to obtain.
	Mm-hmm.
	- yeah, emails that we
	So, this was from a
	Who was the ops
	lieutenant at that time.
	Right.
	Fairly regularly.
	Mm-hmm.
	And during the morning
	watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on
	Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It
	says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily
	activity report. And then, we got the daily
	lieutenant's log here.
	Mm-hmm.
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	So, where would this -?
	This is just out of order. This should have
	been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she
	sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this
	question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she
	sends one at 5:11 a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	And Saturday, she sends
	it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	And on Sunday, August
	11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, reviewing all of the
	lieutenant logs that came out prior to that
	time, they are all sent out pretty much between
	5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. --
	Mm-hmm.
	: - by all the various -
	:
	Right.
	-- ops lieutenants. Do
	you find it odd that she didn't send this one
	out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein
	was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they
	were sent out much earlier than that.
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	183
	Mm-hmm.
	Is that -? I know she
	sent it out after the incident, and after, you
	know, everything happened, but do you think it
	was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26
	a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her
	shift ends at 6:00 a.m.?
	: I mean -.
	1: She was relieved at 5:30 a.m.
	MR.
	by Lieutenant
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	That's what I'm saying. She
	wasn't at the -. When I got there, Lieutenant
	was the lieutenant --
	Correct.
	-- who contacted me
	regarding -.
	She was supposed to be
	gone by 5:30 a.m.
	So, yeah. I don't know. If
	she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know
	how they (Indiscernible *02:13:07).
	Well, that's when she was
	relieved. She didn't leave until after this
	was sent out at 9:26 a.m.
	I don't recall her being in
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	184
	the institution around then.
	She - after Epstein was
	found - she actually went into the SHU. She
	helped with feeding. And then, she went back,
	and she did some things on the computer.
	I thought -
	: And she sent it.
	- I thought
	relieved
	:
	her, and she left.
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	: At 5:30 a.m., she was
	relieved. She stuck around because she said
	she had work to do. After Epstein was found,
	she came to the SHU, and assisted
	, who also wasn't working in the SHU, but
	was there because he was the Comtech guy. And,
	at the time,
	was gone.
	was there.
	But at some point,
	left.
	: And I'm looking at this, but
	I was under the impression, when
	had told
	me he had relieved her, and she left.
	So, do you find that odd,
	then, that she was still there until -
	Until 9:30.
	-- at least 9:30 a.m.?
	Yeah. I didn't, I didn't -.
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	Yeah.
	hearing of this?
	talk with her?
	185
	This is the first you're
	: Yeah. Because when I was
	told she was gone. So, unless --
	Because you wanted to
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	:
	-- no. I mean, he relieved
	her. So, I guess, technically, when you
	relieve somebody, then it becomes your issue.
	So, I was talking to Lieutenant
	But I
	didn't want, you know, I assumed she was the
	one that -. But I heard she had left. I
	didn't know she had come back.
	: She allegedly did not
	come back. She allegedly was there --
	There.
	: -- the entire time.
	So then, that is kind of
	odd, because usually, your log is completed
	before you leave.
	: Right.
	: On your log, you will write
	on there, relieved by such and such.
	So, is that suspicious to
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	you at all?
	employee is
	186
	: Kind of. Yeah. But I'm
	curious as to why you didn't log it down
	something.
	Now, why -? What kind of
	: Had some issues with her. I
	mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything
	that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't
	want to go speaking on allegations that I have
	sent up.
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	Was she a problem
	employee, then?
	: I had some issues. Yeah.
	: Any reason why she
	believed that she might be involved with
	Epstein and his death?
	: Oh, no. I wouldn't put it
	as far as that.
	I mean, but it is just, I
	wouldn't. And I don't know --
	: She's (Indiscernible
	*02:15:29) to tell.
	I mean --
	: -- I mean --
	: -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29).
	-- that's why I went over -.
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	Can you rephrase your question, like, what are
	we saying?
	Yeah. I mean, I'm going
	all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100
	miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to
	--
	:
	I can't --
	- to probably, could you
	-. Was there any reason to believe that she
	could be potentially involved with this?
	: As far as doing harm to him?
	: Keeping his cell door
	open. And letting another cell door open for
	someone else. You know --
	:I wouldn't --
	- anything like that.
	- I wouldn't see that.
	: No?
	I couldn't see that. No.
	No reason to believe it
	would go that far, just maybe insubordination
	is the highest that she goes?
	:
	Yeah. I would, you know, I
	-
	She --
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	188
	- she has the allegations
	up. I know you guys were seeing the
	allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go
	that far.
	But I can't -.
	: Well, is she in a position to
	do something like that?
	What?
	: Io leave the door open, or
	something that's egregious?
	She does lieutenant
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	rounds.
	Yeah.
	She's the ops lieutenant.
	: She is in position to do that.
	: But remember, when you are
	going down range and the range door keys, you
	can't have both. Somebody would have to let
	her down there.
	okay.
	: And those keys. Those keys
	go down.
	Do you know if she was
	particularly friendly with either
	OL
	I don't know what their
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	relationship was.
	She was the shift
	lieutenant. So, I don't know what
	relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible
	*02:16:48).
	MR.
	1: For the 8th, I just realized
	we might not have the daily log for it.
	: Fortunately, I brought
	backups of different things. So, I think I got
	-
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	MR.
	: Jesus Christ.
	: The 9th and the 10th is in
	there.
	: I keep looking at this pile.
	I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are
	working hard.
	I don't think the 9th is
	in there.
	MR.
	MR.
	MR.
	Yeah.
	:
	Just the 10th.
	: Yeah.
	: No, no. It's the second set.
	No, that's the 10th.
	: No, the dates are --
	: Can I say -?
	1: -- the following dates.
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	190
	Can I see the time
	(Indiscernible *02:17:14)?
	MR.
	1: Just, I just want to confirm
	with that.
	Of course. Yeah, yeah.
	okay.
	That's the August 9th.
	MR.
	1: Yeah.
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	MR.
	Okay. Great.
	So, those two.
	Yeah.
	1: That's the previous date we
	MR.
	don't have.
	All right.
	(Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All
	right.
	So, what did you want to see?
	I wanted to see that 9:26
	one.
	Yeah. So, that is -
	Mm-hmm.
	-- and this is what we
	were going to show you, is the count numbers,
	that's what we are getting at next.
	wait. Which is the one -?
	So, this is from Friday,
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	August 9th.
	MR.
	watch.
	191
	okay. This is at what time?
	: This just, that says morning
	Ish.
	Yeah, but why is it saying
	the 10th?
	MR.
	: So, it was, the email was
	sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when
	--
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	MR.
	1:
	So, she was -. Her --
	-- she included everything -
	-
	MR.
	previous day.
	9th.
	:
	-- shift --
	- everything from the
	1: Yeah, but this is August
	They sent it out the day
	after.
	Epstein is back.
	So, see this one? This
	one is sent out on Sunday, August I1th, for the
	day prior, starting -
	:
	Right. So --
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	-- Saturday, August 10th.
	- no, I get that. So, she
	started. Her shift was morning watch on
	Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she
	is relieved by Lieutenant
	MR.
	: So, no, no.
	: No, this is -. This should
	be Thursday into Friday.
	MR.
	1: Yes.
	Okay. No. I --
	MR.
	: So then, it goes —-
	- yeah. See. I thought
	this was --
	MR.
	: —- into day watch.
	:
	- the day of. Then you go
	to day watch, and it goes to evening watch.
	Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the
	day of?
	So, this is the day of.
	MR.
	1: Mm-hmm.
	Okay.
	And this is, we are going
	to get into. So, this one is the day before,
	August 9th, when Reyes left, and we can look to
	see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if
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	we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it
	says that Reyes is pre-removed. Right here.
	"Reyes to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m."
	Okay. So --
	That is August 9th, 2019.
	So, we're going to go all the way down to -.
	The one thing, I guess --
	MR.
	: So, the count —-
	- we want to look at is,
	here, we got this individual, Iam Fernandez
	(Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell
	with staff in R&D watch.
	Right.
	From the SHU. So, if you
	look at the count -.
	Where the heck is the -?
	Okay. So, I just want to go
	back to clarify something with --
	: Yup.
	- with Lieutenant
	So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it.
	Right?
	9:26.
	So - 9:26 --
	She did it.
	-- this was on --
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	MR.
	morning.
	out.
	194
	1: The 10th morning. Saturday
	-- this is when she sent it
	hours after Epstein was found.
	Correct. Like, three
	And this is --
	(Indiscernible
	*02:20:03).
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	-- Friday's log.
	Correct.
	That that's -.
	But they - the same
	thing, though - they all seem to sending it out
	the day before.
	The day before. And then,
	she sent the day before logs out on Saturday.
	Yeah.
	MR.
	: She combined it. If you look
	through it, it has everything combined.
	_: Right.
	MR.
	: It goes from morning watch,
	day watch, evening watch, into -
	Right.
	But I'm just -.
	That should have been done the day before.
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	okay.
	MR.
	combined.
	MR.
	confused about.
	MR.
	before.
	MR.
	p.m.
	10:00 -
	MR.
	MR.
	MR.
	195
	I don't think you're
	right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th.
	The next day does the 10th.
	: Yeah. That's right.
	1: Yeah. Okay.
	(Indiscernible *02:20:41)
	Yeah. That's what --
	okay.
	- that's why I'm a little
	Yeah. No. She's not --
	Because when she came --
	- she does the day
	: -- she came on shift at 10:00
	She started her shift at
	I: 10:00 p.m.
	: -- p.m.
	1: Of the 9th --
	And worked until -
	1:
	-- evening.
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	- 6:00 a.m., but got
	relieved at 5:30.
	So --
	That's right.
	- yeah.
	The lieutenants were working
	from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00.
	Correct. Because the, we
	were told because of traffic issues --
	:
	Yeah.
	- or something else.
	And short -. Yeah.
	So, what we want to, and
	I want to kind of reference here is, Iam
	Fernandez on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&D.
	_: Right.
	And the end of this shows
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	72.
	Mm-hmm.
	: So, on August 9th, 2019,
	at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00
	a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates,
	according to this log that
	sent
	out.
	:
	Right.
	: There is supposed to only
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	be 72 inmates there.
	Right.
	Now, look at the shift
	for August 10th, when this person started their
	shift, there was 73.
	:
	So --
	And the institutional
	logs --
	:
	- right.
	-- show at 12:00 a.m.,
	there were - or so, that looks like - so, there
	is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at
	the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count,
	there shows 73. And then, at the midnight
	count, there it says 72. However, the count
	slips, if you recall --
	MR.
	1: 73.
	-- where are the count
	slips?
	MR.
	So, it is --
	1: The counts.
	-- it says the SHU
	submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m.
	Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh,
	yeah. There.
	So, see?
	12:00 a.m., they
	submit it.
	submitted 73.
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	Although, the institutional count says 72.
	Now, not
	1, but the next one
	shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that
	73 is what is written in this. She went back
	and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30,
	because it was determined --
	:
	That he was on the outcount,
	and on
	- oh, yeah.
	-- (Indiscernible
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	*02:22:57).
	And so, Fernandez was
	never removed -.
	So, look at -. It shows it
	on this. "One SHU correction. Fernandez dry
	cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have
	Fernandez right here.
	MR.
	: Looking back.
	okay. So, this just
	says, this is what happened with him. He was
	found to have contraband, that he was providing
	to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately,
	like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was
	moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was
	never --
	Keyed in.
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	should --
	199
	- keyed out.
	What - yeah - what they
	Keyed out of the SHU.
	So, the institutional counts were reflecting -
	• : 73.
	: - 73. That is what the
	SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is
	what - that's what, according to the system,
	was supposed to be in there. But if they had
	physically -
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	Counted.
	-- counted --
	They would have known --
	-- it would have --
	-- he wasn't there.
	-- been 72. Correct?
	Right.
	So, with this
	information, and I guess as the warden, would
	that suggest to you that they were not actually
	conducting their counts?
	: They weren't counting. And
	then, there is no count slip here for the
	inmate that was on dry cell in R&D.
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	200
	: Right.
	There should have been a
	count slip for him over there. So, what should
	have happened was, the inmate - him - he should
	have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the
	R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a
	count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching
	him should have did a count slip on him. And
	then, whoever his back up was should have done
	a count slip.
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	And this is, from my
	review of everything --
	:Mm-hmm.
	- this is what I found.
	I don't want to put my words into
	mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to
	you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August
	9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated
	August 10th, 2019, and the attachment
	lieutenant 10g from August 9th, 2019." So,
	that's what we are looking at here.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	"The day began with 77
	inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The
	5:00 a.m. E1 institution count, respective ZA
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	SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At
	8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA
	for count, and taken off the lieutenant log.
	The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76.
	Reyes was removed from the institution and does
	not - and should not - appear on any counts at
	this time.
	At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed
	on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the
	accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant
	log. The 4:00 p.m. E1 shows a total of 76
	inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney
	conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates
	that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU,
	and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip
	shows 75. Inaccurate.
	It should have reflected 74 because,
	although there were 75 inmates assigned to the
	SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There
	were no inmates assigned to RA on the E1
	institutional count, and there was no count
	slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the
	problem begins.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	"At 6:34 p.m., inmate
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	Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to
	74. 6:47 p.m., inmate
	(Phonetic Sp.
	*02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it
	down to 73.
	At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp.
	*02:26:15) and William is moved to ZA, to
	suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down
	to 71.
	At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina
	(Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into
	ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72.
	The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73
	inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates
	assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip
	shows 73." Oh, this is
	another one.
	I don't
	think we brought this. "One of the counts
	actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that
	in there?
	MR.
	: The 10:00 p.m.
	: Okay.
	: I admire your guys'
	(Indiscernible *02:26:48).
	Yeah. You would also -.
	This is all probably --
	MR.
	I: 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52) .
	-- all Chinese to you.
	That's how our count slips -
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	-
	language --
	about.
	and that.
	off.
	203
	- now, I did foreign
	: I don't understand --
	-- should be done.
	: - the fuck are you talking
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	:
	Hun.
	This is --
	: All these initials, and this,
	-- but the count --
	So, which is interesting
	is all of these are, as you notice, crossed
	- right.
	These two are not crossed
	off.
	This one says 95 + 1. This one says 73 +
	1. The question had been, when did this
	happen?
	:
	Yeah.
	When did they put these
	plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out?
	:
	But you can't do a -. This
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	is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are
	supposed to have the accurate count. You can't
	do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have
	74 on there.
	Or, in this case, it
	should be 73 minus one because the accurate
	count was actually 12.
	: No, but you wouldn't write
	minus one on there. You would write the actual
	count on there.
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	Right.
	So --
	okay.
	-- either it was 72 or 74.
	: Right.
	But there is no --
	All right. Guys, I'm going to
	--
	- such thing as --
	: - splash water on my face
	again.
	- okay. There is no such
	thing --
	: You guys are getting ready to
	kill me.
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	why -
	205
	-- there is no such thing as
	plus one on the --
	Right.
	- on that.
	You're not allowed to
	ghost count. Correct?
	:
	No. No. There should have
	been an outcount done. So, and this should
	have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant
	was, because they have to, you know, on each
	shift, conduct a count, and review the count
	slips.
	: Does this tell you
	anything, though, that these were crossed off,
	and these weren't?
	: Yeah. Unless, I don't know
	: Do you think that they
	were replaced at a later date, or -?
	•: I mean, it gives the
	appearance. Because at first, I would want to
	know, why you cross out. Why these -
	: They cross out because,
	as things come in --
	No.
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	-- you check it off.
	: So, that's what I want to
	know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay,
	I'm looking at -.
	MR.
	: So, basically, I think it's
	standard practice, as a control officer?
	:
	No. I mean, I've worked
	control, and what I would do is, I would do the
	check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -.
	And that's people's style.
	Okay.
	That might be their style.
	So, I just want to know -.
	This one is
	(Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe.
	_: Huh?
	MR.
	1 m
	So then --
	This one.
	:
	-- then that's how
	does
	So, my question is then, why isn't this
	it.
	done --
	this, if
	Right.
	-- like that. I mean,
	does it like that, then that's
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	his consistent way of checking it out. But if
	this is all on that shift -.
	: But point being, you will
	agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on,
	the counts were not conducted. Correct?
	: No. They weren't done
	right.
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	The SHU counts?
	Yeah.
	to really go into too much --
	Okay. Then we don't need
	Mm-hmm.
	- detail with that. Is
	this the first that you are seeing this?
	Yeah. I haven't seen that
	before.
	okay.
	: This was still on the counts?
	:No.
	Now, we're going to move
	on because the warden agrees that there is not
	really reason to really dig further, because he
	agrees this clearly shows that the counts were
	not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time
	on.
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	MR.
	Fernandez key?
	1: Do you want to ask about the
	What about it?
	MR.
	: who's responsible?
	So, Fernandez -. Oh, can
	you just - sorry - would you mind signing,
	initialing and just dating? If Fernandez was
	actually removed from the SHU -
	Mm-hmm.
	-- and placed onto R, you
	know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and
	R&D are interchangeable. Correct?
	RA --
	Because RA for - RA, I
	believe, is what it shows in the count slip,
	but it stands for the R&D --
	:
	That's the R&D --
	- right?
	- area. I believe. Yeah.
	So, if he's actually
	moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August
	9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for
	keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into
	the RA, so that the count would be accurately
	reflected?
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	+ =
	SHU would have notified
	control center, that we are moving one over to
	R&D.
	: And by that notification,
	do they also say, can you please key him out,
	and into? Or is that just automatically done
	by control?
	: Well, the notification is
	made to control that inmate such and such is
	being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you
	key the inmate to that area.
	Sure.
	MR.
	: So, I'll give you a quick
	background. It looks like
	--
	: Who is that?
	MR.
	_: Right.
	: -- witnessed this.
	(Indiscernible
	*02:31:02).
	]:
	Uh-huh.
	MR.
	MR.
	: And he wrote up the shot.
	: Right.
	1: And he called the lieutenant.
	He requested the lieutenant.
	Right.
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	MR.
	1: And it looks like he
	requested the lieutenant, but he never notified
	control --
	:
	Okay.
	MR.
	: - that an inmate was being
	moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible
	*02:31:20).
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	well, no, no, no, no. 1
	wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) --
	MR.
	: He doesn't recall --
	-- I wouldn't -.
	: But then, while the counts
	are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So,
	whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I
	need to do a count slip because I have an
	inmate down there.
	: Is this where somebody
	disappears, that we're looking for?
	_: Right.
	Again, I told you, this
	was more of an administrative thing. Just to
	say what does the warden, you know, and the
	boss of this place, what is his take on these
	matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot
	of things went wrong this day. So, we need to
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	figure out why these things went wrong. So,
	this is -. Let me just make sure, before we
	move on, that I got everything. All right?
	So, first, before we get into rounds, when a
	lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU --
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	- are they required to
	conduct a round of the inmates going up and
	down the different tiers, or does the round
	consist of just checking
	in with the officers
	to make sure everything is okay?
	: Well, you check the officer
	to make sure they are all right, and you check
	the documentation. So, you check, you know,
	you edit, you would have to review the post
	orders also. To state what their duties are.
	I mean, all of us had different, you know, I
	was a lieutenant, so it was different things
	you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make
	sure, you know, the officers checked off, you
	know, if the person ate or not. Any medical.
	I would check to see if medical came up. So,
	it would factor and depend on what shift you
	went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates
	are up, so you're going, you know, you can go
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	around. Evening shift, you can see what's
	going on. The midnight shift, they're
	sleeping. But you are definitely checking a
	30-minute 1og, to see if the inmates are doing
	their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just
	documentation.
	212
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	Now, as the warden, did
	you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down
	range when they were doing their lieutenant
	visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is
	specifically when they are, like, signing off
	on the different, like, on, as you can see,
	this is what I'm going to be showing you.
	These are round sheets that --
	Mm-hmm.
	: - you sent to Mr.
	, where it shows the different
	lieutenants signed on/off that they did their
	round.
	But what does --
	: So, what does that -?
	- what the lieutenants are
	checking for is accuracy of the officer's
	rounds.
	Okay. This is -.
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	So, what they are checking
	is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks
	done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are
	not being done, you know, so, you know, then it
	needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is
	what the issue was.
	But if they are signing
	it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you
	know, that the time that the round will put
	down, that they were down.
	Now, what would be -?
	This is the round, it 100ks lie for 8/8. Can
	you think of a reason why these wouldn't be
	done? But they would be signed off on right
	here?
	: Let me see. So, if a
	lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was
	empty like this, then it is a problem.
	: Because you have this
	8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing
	that they were conducted, but this lieutenant
	signed it.
	That's a problem.
	: The same thing. We go,
	this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks
	like they didn't even sign it until here. On
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	8/8.
	:
	Wait. Did you print these
	off the logbook, or -?
	This is what you sent to
	Right.
	On Saturday, August 10th,
	at 6:21 p.m.
	: Now, the only other thing I
	can think of, and when I had gathered
	something, I might have said, because the
	checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30-
	minute checks, so they --
	: This is also --
	- you know, these are -
	- this is the day, this
	is two days before Epstein was found.
	- no, this is -. No. I
	was thinking of the log. The log did it
	electronic. But this, no. This --
	We have the electronic
	version.
	-- yeah. This is --
	: Which one?
	-- no, this is -. That
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	means --
	on that.
	215
	So, this is just wrong?
	-- yeah. This is wrong.
	Should have this
	lieutenant signed that?
	: No. He should have signed
	it.
	They should have put something --
	Okay.
	_ : — listed as some
	discrepancy, why the checks weren't done.
	And on these, whereas it
	looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it
	looks like probably because these are done. Do
	you think that is the reason why this
	individual hadn't signed these? Because these
	weren't correct?
	: Probably. I can't speculate
	: Because it says --
	I can't.
	-- reviewed by morning
	watch lieutenant.
	Where they do that, well,
	that lieutenant does start signing it here,
	where they are now filled out.
	:
	Right.
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	216
	For the same date.
	So, this looks - hey, I
	don't know who it was - but this looks
	(Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it.
	okay.
	: Let me see how those 30-
	minute. That's the same one. I don't know who
	it was.
	Who it was.
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	okay. So, that was
	(Indiscernible *02:36:19). Certainly go 100k,
	but whomever it was during those shift. And
	then, we get into, it looks like,
	(Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these.
	Here is the 8/9. Where --
	Right.
	signed off, until 2:00 p.m.
	-- it's signed off,
	That's a problem.
	After that, no sign off.
	Same thing.
	that time.
	:
	Yeah.
	That's just when I think
	left his shift, or somewhere around
	So -.
	: The point of this, if I may
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	ask, is we got a miscount, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	We're not --
	: This is --
	-- we've moved on from
	counts.
	Now we're on rounds.
	: Okay. Now, counts. The
	significance of the counts is, at some point,
	Reyes disappears?
	No. The significance of
	the counts is that, if inmates - or if the
	staff members aren't conducting counts and -
	counts are to the accountability of the
	inmates, to make sure everybody is there.
	: Right.
	Rounds --
	: Mm-hmm.
	- are basically to make
	sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that
	correct, sir?
	_: You are right. Counts are
	accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks
	are basically safety checks.
	: So, the point of these
	questioning is, it looks like at - what we just
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	conducting --
	218
	finished was counts - we have shown that the
	staff members were not conducting their counts.
	_: Right.
	: Right. Because that is why
	you have 72 when it should be --
	Now we are doing rounds.
	: — (Indiscernible *02:37:41).
	To find out were the
	staff members conducting their rounds.
	: Got it.
	And again, we have, in
	this case, a very high-profile inmate that was
	deceased. Became deceased at some point.
	: And they think --
	: And --
	: — plus it's whether they --
	: - yeah, it --
	: - noticed on their rounds
	that the guy was deceased.
	- if they were
	: Or -.
	: -- rounds at all. And if
	they were conducting rounds, would that be -
	and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask
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	1
	you now, since I'm making that explanation - if
	2
	they were conducting their rounds, would that
	3
	be a way to at least try to help ensure that
	4
	inmates such as Epstein were alive and well?
	I
	5
	know it's not going to prevent it in every
	6
	case, but is that part of the reason, to make
	7
	sure that, if they are conducting a round, you
	8
	are checking to see if they are alive, and they
	are breathing.
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	It is true, but I mean, and
	because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you
	can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want
	to do their harm to themselves, they are going
	to do it.
	: Right. And that goes
	into play with why -
	: They just --
	_: Right.
	: - they just look, they do
	rounds by looking in their cell.
	_: Right.
	• So, if you want to --
	: To check.
	: - do harm, you just wait
	until they go passed your cell.
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	220
	Right. And then, you kind
	of figure out the timing of the route. But the
	fact remains, if you are not showing on the
	form that you did your rounds, then that's a
	problem.
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	: So, when you are looking
	at these rounds that you sent
	\| are
	you finding problems because they are not
	completed correctly? You know, what we just
	looked through. In fact, you know, these are
	August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09),
	they're not signed off. There's blocks that
	are not filled in.
	: Yeah. Looking at them now?
	: Right.
	What is the question?
	: Well, does it show you
	that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to
	be filled out correctly?
	Yes.
	And that is for the 8th,
	as well?
	Right.
	Okay. So, that was -
	: And that is something, it was
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	--
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	221
	your job to pass that on to
	?
	No. He requested -
	No, no, no, no.
	-- the information.
	This is just to show that
	Yeah.
	- what the round sheets
	that the warden sent to the regional director
	were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of,
	hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It
	has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did
	it right or not. It's, what his staff members
	--
	: Right.
	: Right.
	: - doing it right.
	: And who was responsible
	to make sure the round sheets are done
	correctly?
	: Well, the staff working up
	there are responsible. And then, the
	supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are
	doing it.
	And what is this? This
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	was also attached. What is that right there,
	that we are looking at?
	Hmm.
	: TruScope logs?
	Yeah. This looks like
	TruScope. This 1o0ks like the log. And so,
	like, if they are doing what areas they search.
	And these are searches?
	:
	Yeah. These looks like
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	searches.
	Okay.
	Let me see that. Search.
	Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room.
	Recreation area. Yeah. These are --
	okay.
	-- these are search areas.
	Does it show anywhere in
	there that there was any cells that were
	searched, or are they just all, like, common
	areas?
	No. They searched it. Look
	how -.
	What is this? Nine South. SHU.
	Completed all. These are, these 1ooks like
	everything they have done in there. The fire
	and safety checks. This is - it looks like the
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	log.
	you.
	223
	Okay. So, this goes with
	Mm-hmm.
	So, all to this. This is
	something else that we asked for the BOP to
	print out for us, and this one specifically one
	we asked. When you send us the cell searches
	that were conducted on 8/9/2019 --
	Mm-hmm.
	-- we got back one. By
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	Mr.
	Mm-hmm.
	It say that it was
	conducted at 12:36 p.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	On 8/9/2019.
	Mm-hmm.
	Is that a problem? That
	only one cell search was conducted in the SHU?
	According to, at least according to TruScope.
	:
	Because I believe the post
	orders state it is supposed to be - and don't
	quote me on it --
	Mm-hmm.
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	224
	- you have to look at the
	post orders - but they state, I think five a
	shift. A minimum of five.
	It's five, I believe --
	Yeah.
	- for the night watch.
	The day watch, I believe, is more. And the
	morning -
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	: They're supposed to do five --
	- watch is just
	(Indiscernible *02:41:59).
	: —- cell searches?
	: No, no. Each shift is a
	minimum of five.
	: I don't think --
	And then --
	- that includes that
	morning watch, though -
	- the morning watch is --
	- because there's --
	-- area.
	- right.
	Yeah. You are --
	Common areas.
	-- picking the common area.
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	day.
	225
	So, let me get this clear.
	: Yeah.
	: You are supposed to do five
	cell shifts, five cell searches per shift?
	Yes. That is -.
	: All right. And in this case,
	there is only an indication that they did one?
	One. Right?
	One the whole day.
	One the day whole.
	Not per shift. The whole
	: Okay. Now, whose job is it -
	:No.
	: - to say why aren't you doing
	those? I was going to use the F word. Why
	aren't you doing all the cell shifts?
	: Well, this is, this is my
	question to the warden is, is that a problem,
	that there was only one logged into TruScope?
	Mm-hmm. It is a problem.
	Does that indicate that
	the cells were not being searched, to you? Or
	that they just weren't logging them in?
	And again, whoever was
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	working that day, you're going to have to ask
	them.
	I mean --
	And we have.
	-- looking at --
	And it was just -
	- looking on paper, I mean,
	it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your
	searches.
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	okay •
	I mean, now, there might
	have been a reason where the person said, okay,
	the computers were down or whatever, but it is
	highly unlikely for -.
	: So, but you are literally
	going into a cell and search it? Does that
	mean --
	: Yeah, yeah.
	: - you throw over the
	mattresses, the whole thing?
	•: No. You pull them out. You
	look at --
	: Okay.
	: - look and check the
	lockers.
	You check under their stuff. You
	know, and you typically do it, like on certain
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	days when the guys are going out to take a
	shower, you might go out and do that.
	: So, with your suggestion
	that computers could be down and things like
	that, as you can see from the email attachment
	that you said, there are certainly plenty of
	searches that were
	entered in there --
	Oh.
	- but there is only one
	cell search.
	Right.
	: And so, I would assume,
	would that indicate that the computers are
	actually up and running?
	: Yes. So, this one, this is
	the same day?
	What are you looking -
	That could be (Indiscernible
	*02:43:42).
	- yeah, this should be
	8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10.
	8/9--
	I would think.
	-- reg number. Reg number.
	It shows the dates here.
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	I just can't see them.
	in your opinion?
	228
	Yeah. Change base. Yeah.
	This is a search one. This is the log.
	Okay. So, problematic,
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	Yes. It is.
	: All right. So, not only
	searching them, but is it equally as important
	to actually log it in, as well, so that we know
	whether things are being
	searched?
	: Yes. You should log it.
	: All right. Now, this,
	this comes to the kind of question on this.
	When Epstein was found, are you aware that he
	was in a cell that didn't coincide with what
	his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP
	database said, where he should have been? He
	was in the wrong cell.
	: I did hear, afterwards, that
	there were some issues with Sentry and the way
	they keyed into the cells.
	All right. And what did
	you hear?
	: I think, just that the cell,
	the way the inmates were being keyed in was
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	off, it didn't match this cell.
	Right.
	That.
	So, yeah, his assigned
	cell within the BOP database was not where he
	was located --
	229
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	Mm-hmm.
	- in person. At least
	when he was found on August 10th, 2019.
	Right.
	: Now, is that something that is
	- I should shut up, right?
	No, no. I'm good.
	•: Go ahead.
	: Now, is that something that
	goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility
	to see where guys are being celled?
	No. But I mean --
	Yeah. Most of my
	questions to him isn't that --
	_ :
	Right.
	-- it's his
	responsibility, it's whose responsibility was
	it?
	: Okay. Got it.
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	230
	And then -.
	: So, who should have made
	sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database,
	matched where he was physically located?
	Because obviously, people get a hold of the
	information that he wasn't in his assigned
	cell. You know, that is just more reason to
	people not trusting the government. So, we are
	just trying to figure out -.
	well, and this is not a
	problem limited to one person. It is a problem
	- and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as
	far as specific keying in cells. I don't think
	this was done in a malicious -.
	So, what happened here,
	our investigation shows is that when he came
	back from --
	Right.
	- from suicide, or
	psychological observation, he was placed into
	the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this
	form. However, because his - is it CPAP
	(Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)?
	MR.
	:
	CPAP.
	His CPAP machine, the
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	cord didn't reach the plug.
	Mm-hmm.
	: So, they had to move him
	to a different cell.
	Right.
	: So, from July 30th to
	August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned
	cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever,
	you know, and my thought being is, well, if
	they are doing their cell
	searches --
	:
	Oh, I thought you meant -
	: -- wouldn't -.
	- the cell didn't match up
	with --
	No, no, they -
	-- (Indiscernible
	*02:46:52).
	- they logged him into
	the cell that he was placed in, coming out of
	psychological observation.
	_:
	Right.
	On the 30th. Then, they
	physically moved him to a different cell.
	Right.
	On the 30th. Because his
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	CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach.
	: What is a CPAP machine?
	It's the snore -. It's
	to help you breathe when you are sleeping.
	Mm-hmm.
	: And he needed a CPAP machine?
	Yes, sir.
	For the snoring.
	So --
	: Don't call me sir. Please.
	I'm old. All right? You're reminding me.
	: And so, no one ever went
	back into the system from, all the way from the
	30th up to August 10th, and made that
	correction.
	Right.
	Who was responsible for
	that?
	:
	So, whoever made the cell
	change should have contacted control center.
	: And is the control center
	that actually made the change, not the
	individuals in SHU, or the SHU lieutenant?
	:
	No. The --
	Because my understanding
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	OIC.
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	it would have been the SHU lieutenant of the
	: Bed changes?
	: To verify their cellmates
	where were the -. Wherever the BOP databases
	said they are.
	•: So, you have to, you would
	have to call control center to make that
	change.
	Okay. So, who should
	have called the control center?
	:
	Whoever made the change in
	Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me
	if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU
	staff have control over keying where an inmate
	is in.
	Yeah. No. I thought the
	OIC might, or the that the SHU --
	: No, because --
	-- lieutenant would.
	- in that case, beds would
	be really messed up.
	Right, right, right.
	:
	So, the control center is
	centralized area.
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	that call?
	7
	8
	happen?
	234
	Okay.
	: So, a call should have been
	made down to control, saying, hey, this is
	where he's being keyed to, and this is what -.
	And who should have made
	:
	Whoever made the change.
	Whoever switched him.
	: And my understanding is
	that the OIC and the SHU lieutenant were
	supposed to review cell assignments, to make
	sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at
	least on a periodical basis. Is that correct?
	: Yeah. You do a, what we
	call a bed book check, to make sure. Because
	your board, you know, when you are in the unit,
	you have a board up there, and you just match
	where everyone is at.
	: And how often should that
	:
	There is no set policy, but
	as a good practice, you know, you kind of want
	to check what your open cells are, where, you
	know, where individuals are. And should it
	also be checked if they were doing cell
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	searches? Would that be caught, if they were
	2
	doing searches?
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	: Well, if you are doing a
	cell search, all you are going to do is put
	down the cell number, and the individual in it.
	It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be
	able to find out if it is the correct room.
	: Okay.
	: And the correct bed in
	Sentry.
	All right.
	: But, you know -.
	: So, in this instance,
	then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let
	you answer, who -
	: I have the same problem.
	-- who is it that should
	have notified control center to make this
	change? It sounds like you said whoever
	physically moved him, at the time?
	: So, what happens is, whoever
	physically moved him should have said, okay,
	this is where, you know, you are, this is where
	we are moving him. And then, you let the -
	typically - the OIC know, and then, they will
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	second?
	236
	call down to control center.
	And if that didn't -.
	: Can I speak to my client for a
	Yeah.
	Sure.
	Mm-hmm.
	Do you want me --
	Yeah.
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	- do you want me to push
	pause?
	NO.
	Yeah, no. I'll take him to
	the other -.
	MR.
	1: Okay.
	Sure. Okay. It's 4:46
	p.m., and this is Senior Special Agent
	, and I'm pushing pause.
	(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went
	off the record and back on the record).
	The recorder is back on.
	It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I
	remind you, sir, you are still under oath.
	Mm-hmm.
	All right. So, we
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	stopped with the, we were talking about who was
	responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was
	logged into the correct cell within the --
	Question.
	-- BOP database system.
	Were there other cells that
	were wrong?
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	MR.
	Do you know that,
	1: Not -. We don't know if -.
	This, we know only because we checked this.
	: Okay. So, I mean,
	everything else could have been right, and that
	could have been a --
	No. Well, we found out,
	this is the reason was because, again, he was
	placed into that cell, and then moved because
	of the CPAP machine.
	No. I was --
	Well, our question was -
	: — you know, wondering if it
	is a systematic, or an individual problem.
	: Correct.
	That's why I was just
	curious.
	Yeah. And that's
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	something that we should probably -.
	: Well, and my question is, does
	that have any effect on count? I mean, they
	still should be able to look in the cells if
	there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28).
	Well, when --
	well, the problem comes
	in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey,
	now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell,
	and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just,
	you know -
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	: But I'm saying —
	-- the media says all of
	these things that went wrong.
	: -- yeah.
	One being -
	: I've had that.
	- wait, he's not even in
	the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and
	who was responsible?
	: Okay. Now, so, my question
	is, does it make any difference? I mean, if
	they are supposed to do the count, the count is
	you look in the cell, and see --
	Right.
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	: - whether there's a guy in
	there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's
	not in, he's still in his cell.
	No. Correct.
	: You know?
	But because we are doing
	this deep dive review -
	: Okay. I gotcha.
	-- it's showing these
	different, you know --
	: Got it. Okay.
	- and again, this is,
	this is one of those things --
	: You're just being extra
	careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible
	*02:52:14).
	-- and not like
	(Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have
	to, we have to address the fact that --
	: He wasn't in the right cell.
	-- Mr. Epstein wasn't in
	the cell that he was assigned to.
	: Okay. I mean, it's not just
	that.
	Someone
	(Indiscernible *02:52:22) that
	he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and,
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	you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong
	number of prisoners.
	: Right.
	: That's a lot of mistakes.
	Right. And we haven't
	even gotten involved.
	Mm-hmm.
	As I'm sure you know.
	But --
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	: Right.
	- so, after the person
	who moved him didn't contact and have this
	changed, how would have, then, how would we,
	then, how would have anyone found out that he
	was in the wrong cell? What processes are in
	place to ensure that where they are matches up
	with the actual database?
	Well, I guess if they were
	doing --
	You said bed book counts?
	: — yeah. Usually, you could
	do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you
	know, that every inmate is in the cell that
	they are supposed to be. When you are updating
	your accountability board, you would look and
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	see, okay, you got him here, where is he at?
	And then, match it up with, you know, with
	Sentry.
	And who would be doing
	those things?
	: The staff working up there
	in SHU.
	241
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	Is the lieutenant, the
	SHU lieutenant, at all involved, as far as you
	know, in making sure that this is all accurate?
	: Well, he was spearheading it
	to make sure everything was --
	: He was the supervisor.
	: - was right. Yeah. He was
	the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay,
	let's, did this happen? Have we done this?
	And have we done that?
	: Okay.
	: And -. Okay. Just to make me
	clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether
	or not he should have a, he had a roommate.
	Right.
	: Okay. And somebody dropped
	the ball as to whether he was in the right
	cell.
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	242
	Right.
	: Okay. And then, somebody
	would have dropped the ball as to either,
	dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't
	find out that he wasn't on the count. They had
	said we did a count, but they didn't notice
	that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you
	know what I mean?
	:
	Right.
	: Okay. That starts to be a
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	problem.
	So,
	just pointed
	out to me. On the after-action review --
	Mm-hmm.
	- they did review this.
	Mm-hmm.
	And it says that,
	according to their review --
	: Right.
	- this is not my review.
	Right.
	Or
	review.
	"Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry
	regarding cell quarters assignments." ORT.
	QTR.
	"Although it is well documented, inmate
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	1
	Epstein was housed with two other inmates
	2
	during his assignment in SHU. Sentry does not
	3
	reflect this information accurately. Inmate
	4
	Epstein was found within cell 220, that Sentry
	5
	never reflects him being housed within that
	6
	cell at any time." But to answer your
	7
	question, the first sentence says that there is
	8
	significant --
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	:
	Okay.
	-- discrepancies.
	Mm-hmm.
	The way that I read that
	is, overall, whether they are referring to
	specifically Epstein --
	Epstein.
	- that, I am not able to
	determine --
	Right.
	-- based upon that
	sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that
	they had some discrepancies. So, Lieutenant
	would have supervised it, but it's really
	the staff that would be responsible for doing
	these bed book counts, and making sure
	assignments are --
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	-
	244
	Yeah.
	He did it right there
	-- the inmates are in
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	their assigned -?
	- and then, whoever is
	moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you
	make the notification.
	And is it surprising to
	you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't
	caught?
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	: At two weeks later from
	where?
	From -. He was placed
	into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found
	August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was
	never caught that he was not --
	: In the right cell.
	- locked in the right
	cell.
	Yeah.
	Is that a significant
	amount of time that went by without catching
	that?
	:
	Without catching it. It is.
	Now, is that, you know,
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	all staff that was in there, or is it, like,
	2
	really -?
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	: And again, and you probably
	have to speak to the captain who was
	responsible for doing the checks, and doing the
	count.
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	So, would the captain
	have some responsibility on this, too?
	Well, did the captain is in
	charge of correctional services. So, that is
	the unit he is over.
	: Okay.
	So, he has overall
	responsibility to make sure, you know, in
	conjunction with the lieutenant, that the unit
	is running the way it is supposed to run.
	: And what should have the
	captain done in order to make sure that that
	was accurate?
	: Well, now, there is
	different ways of finding out if stuff is
	accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit
	system. Where they are responsible - the
	lieutenants - are responsible to conduct
	perpetual audits.
	So, you can find out through
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	those, when you do it. And they are usually
	quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and
	things are going on in that department of
	correctional services, we have what we call
	perpetual audits, which he maintained the
	records of, and that is another checks and
	balance where you would find out if something
	is wrong.
	And how often are those
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	done?
	Those are done quarterly.
	: Quarterly?
	Yeah.
	All right. So, the fact
	that this is, we are talking about, like, ten
	or 11 days, there is a good chance that they
	weren't done during that time period? Or do
	you know when they would be done? Are they
	done, like, on a certain date?
	What, the quarterly?
	Yeah.
	: It's - and I don't know when
	the dates of the quarter starts - but that is
	to your checks and balance. You know --
	: Right.
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	- you do your perpetual
	audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh,
	wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And
	then, you come up with the corrective action to
	fix it.
	So, that's how the
	captain could have determined, I guess --
	Yeah.
	- but how, in those --
	The captain would find out.
	- ten or 11 days, how
	would have that been caught?
	: Again, you would have to see
	your inmate accountability board.
	: Mm-hmm.
	:
	You know, are you matching
	Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and
	matching it with what is on the board.
	: But - and I apologize
	that I'm beating -
	Right.
	: - a dead horse here,
	but, like, who does that?
	: Again, I don't know who, you
	know, who the lieutenant assigned it to, who
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	the OIC. You know, everybody has different
	duties, and -
	So, it is not like --
	-- different ways that work.
	- not like morning watch
	does this, or it's just based upon what passed
	down from lieutenant to the OIC --
	Right. Like, what -
	- to whoever.
	- no, but basically, when
	you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't
	see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an
	accountability check like that, because the
	guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are
	looking for a living, breathing body, but you
	can't physically see them.
	Mm-hmm.
	_: You know, so, what shift was
	picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure
	our cell, the accountability in the cell. So,
	I can't --
	You can't really answer
	the question.
	-- I can't really speak -.
	Sure. That's fine.
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	close.
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	249
	Mm-hmm.
	: All right. Let's get
	this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind,
	this --
	: Am I right that we are getting
	close to the bottom of the pile?
	We are. We are getting
	take this. I-O-L.
	: Because Jesus Christ, I can't
	(Indiscernible *02:58:29).
	We are -.
	(Indiscernible
	*02:58:31) with this.
	: Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, this is the email
	with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment.
	And these were separate.
	: Now, let me ask the question
	(Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors.
	Your job is the prison. It's your job to 1o0k
	down into the prison, as far as these counts
	and, you know, accountability boards, and so
	forth.
	:
	NO.
	I mean, that is what
	you have a captain for and a lieutenant for.
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	(Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know?
	: Okay.
	: And then, we touched on
	this before, but this is an email that the
	captain sent to you.
	250
	Right.
	Regarding the lieutenant
	rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent
	this email on August 11th, 2019. He said,
	"Warden, here are the lieutenant rounds for 8/9
	to 8/10. Below are the workstations logged on
	to complete rounds."
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	Mm-hmm.
	But again, for you, a
	lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever
	came to that conclusion, or that we may have
	got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round
	is used primarily to check in, and it's not
	necessarily to go down the different ranges?
	: On the midnight shift. So,
	they typically not, you know, unless they have
	an issue, but like you said, you as a
	lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and
	see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the
	other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see
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	what's going on.
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	: Mm-hmm.
	All right. So, should
	they, though, be walking down the ranges on
	both the morning, or the day watch and the
	night watch? Evening watch.
	: This is what I will say.
	You probably got to look at the post orders and
	see --
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	Yeah. The post orders --
	the post orders.
	-- aren't clear with
	that.
	Yeah.
	We haven't --
	So, it's not -.
	-- we haven't been able
	to --
	It's not --
	- specifically
	determine.
	-- that's what I mean, it's
	not a requirement.
	: Okay.
	You know, for the
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	(Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there,
	making rounds, checking the books, to see if
	you got a problem on the range. You would call
	that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just
	walk the ranges. Just to see what is going on.
	Because most lieutenants
	that we talked to --
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	Mm-hmm.
	-- said that they were
	absolutely required to do --
	Right.
	-- a round, just like a
	SHU staff member --
	Right.
	-- was to do a round.
	Some lieutenants -
	Mm-hmm.
	- specifically,
	lieutenants that worked that day --
	Right.
	- said, nope, there's no
	requirement to do that.
	:
	But --
	So, that's where I'm, as
	the warden --
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	Well --
	- who is right?
	: No. The expectation is,
	like you hit any unit, you make your rounds
	within the unit. The SHU unit is no different.
	That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there,
	make sure everything is, you know, check on the
	inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if
	we are talking about the post orders, were they
	required to? The post, you know, the post
	orders, I don't believe had the requirement
	that they have to, you know --
	: okay.
	• : — physically go in the
	(Indiscernible *03:01:24).
	: So, does that - if I
	understand you correctly - the expectation was
	that they conduct a round, just like a SHU
	staff member, but there is no requirement to do
	so?
	Yeah. You should be walking
	around.
	All right.
	Io see if everything -.
	But it's not like you
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	told them, you gave them a directive, make sure
	you are doing this.
	:
	No.
	: So, there is no --
	No.
	: - so, if someone wasn't
	doing it, it's not like something they would be
	disciplined for?
	: See, that's hard. I mean,
	to say you would discipline. There
	is a
	difference between what is written down, and
	what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are
	coming in, and I enter there
	as
	a supervisor, I
	want to see what's going around the unit. I
	might ask the officer, all right, do we have
	any problems. The inmates, when you come on,
	hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey,
	lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are
	going down the ranges.
	You know, so, when you
	are going down the range, you are seeing
	something.
	You get to another range. The
	inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So,
	it is something you should be doing as part of
	your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just
	walking around, to make sure everything is -.
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	255
	But if you were still the
	warden of the MCC, and found out that your
	lieutenants, when they were signing off on
	doing rounds -
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	: Right.
	: -- and you found out that
	they were only checking in with the staff
	members, and they were not actually walking
	down the ranges, is that something that you
	would find problematic?
	: I would correct it.
	: And when you say correct
	it, what do you mean by that?
	: I would tell, you know, get
	with the captain, and I would tell the captain
	they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds,
	they need to walk the ranges.
	: So, they should be
	walking the ranges, then?
	: Off of the post orders, it's
	not in there, you know -
	: I know. I --
	: - any place saying that you
	have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like
	any unit you walk on, you want to see what is
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	going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the
	word "sound correctional judgement"? You know,
	just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on.
	I mean, you have some people that go above and
	beyond. And then, do their job, and you have
	some people that want to do the bear minimum.
	But that is something --
	Mm-hmm.
	: — from a rounds point of
	view, I would say you need to make those
	rounds.
	: Okay. Let me ask you a
	question.
	_: Mm-hmm.
	: You do the rounds. Does that
	mean literally walk up and down this, what we,
	what I would call the cell block?
	: Yeah. You walk around the
	unit. You know, you are interacting with
	inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same
	thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you
	are walking around.
	Hey, what's going on?
	So, what you are not
	familiar with is the way the SHU is set up.
	Right.
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	different ways.
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	There is different
	levels, and there is different --
	: Yeah, I've been to the SHU.
	-- hallways.
	: Know what I remember about the
	SHU, it's fucking cold.
	Right.
	Yeah. So, like, if you
	are just, you can simply go in and go to the
	officer's station, and check in with the staff
	and say --
	: Right.
	: — everything good? You
	got all your paperwork in order? All your
	paperwork is actually right here on the desk.
	Did you find it problematic that they are
	keeping all of their round sheets on the desk
	versus on the ranges themselves?
	Different places do it
	okay.
	Some --
	: So -.
	- some places have it, they
	keep it at the end of the range, and you sign
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	it. Some have it right there, the log, you
	know, take the logbook and they just sign it.
	So -.
	So, the individuals, the
	ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that
	we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and
	August 10th --
	Mm-hmm.
	- a majority of them
	said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all I
	needed to do was go to that officer's station,
	check in with my officers, make sure their
	paperwork is done, and then I left. Every
	other lieutenant that we talked to said, no.
	Mm-hmm.
	When you sign that paper,
	you are signing it just like you conducted a
	round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round.
	:Mm-hmm.
	You had to go down every
	range --
	Right.
	: — make sure everything
	was good to go. You are not just checking on.
	Mm-hmm.
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	So, what we are trying to
	say is, which one is right?
	: Well, now, for the ones that
	are saying that I don't have to go down and
	check every range, they are going off the post
	office.
	Mm-hmm.
	: The ones that are doing
	their job, they are going around and checking
	every time.
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	: Okay.
	:
	Making sure the wellbeing of
	the inmates, and you are checking on the
	wellbeing of your staff.
	: All right. So, it kind
	of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is
	wrong? They need to change the post orders?
	: Well, they would, they would
	have - should put in --
	: Yeah.
	- their post orders, but
	they should be going around, and --
	: So, they should have a rule --
	-- the wellness check.
	: - that says, you got to go
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	around?
	it?
	just do it.
	lower.
	MR.
	back on it.
	260
	Yeah.
	: okay.
	So.
	So, no one technically
	did anything wrong. They should just really do
	They should. They should
	MR.
	Okay. Fair enough.
	1: The term used was "sound
	correctional judgment.
	Yes.
	All right. So, that -
	again - was that email from
	the lieutenant rounds.
	to you, with
	: Damn. That pile is a lot
	: Unless you want to go right
	: Now, this says -
	: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
	I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that
	pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to
	give you some of that money back, but I can't
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	take this shit no more.
	So, this one says it's
	Mm-hmm.
	To you.
	Mm-hmm.
	: Who is
	?
	He aws a unit manager there
	for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23).
	Okay. At the MCC?
	Yeah.
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	It says, subject, "Weekly
	rounds --
	Mm-hmm.
	- as requested."
	Mm-hmm.
	So, these are weekly
	rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that
	for?
	That was for our Wood sec
	unit
	(Phonetic Sp. *03:06:34).
	oh, okay.
	Yeah.
	So, you actually had your
	own separate wood sec unit?
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	Yeah.
	So, that is not in SHU?
	Or is it?
	Huh? No. That's not in
	SHU. That is a separate unit all together.
	: So, why was this
	provided?
	For any reason?
	Because I like to -. I used
	to like to track who was making their rounds
	and not making their rounds.
	All right.
	So, they had to send it to
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	me every week.
	So, was this just
	coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein?
	: Yeah. This had nothing to
	do with him.
	Mm-hmm.
	This was probably what he
	had to send up that week.
	:
	okay.
	It was the end of the week.
	: okay.
	:
	So, that's what he sent.
	So, that had nothing to do with him.
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	do with Epstein.
	going to --
	MR.
	staff --
	eight --
	rounds.
	I'm doing.
	263
	So, this has nothing to
	No.
	: All right. I'm not even
	1: Yeah.
	: - you can keep that over
	here, so we don't get that confused.
	MR.
	1: Yeah.
	All right. So, this one.
	As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr.
	It says SHU rounds.
	Mm-hmm.
	What SHU rounds are we
	looking at here? This is a new document here.
	•: Okay. This is on -. This
	is eight, for the --
	This is for executive
	- the week starting at
	- or-?
	-- this is starting for 8/4
	So, this is, these are my rounds that
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	264
	Now, is there some kind
	of a requirement that you conduct rounds?
	: Yeah. The warden is
	supposed to go up and go -.
	So, you are supposed to
	conduct rounds in the SHU?
	Yeah. About once --
	Or is this --
	- a week. Like, you can go
	up as many times, but, you know, the warden is
	supposed to be going.
	: All right.
	: Now, that means you are
	supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU?
	: Yeah. I go in the SHU. I
	walk around and do rounds in every area of the
	institution. So.
	: And is everyone on here
	supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have
	never seen this round sheet until reviewing
	your emails.
	No. This is every Bureau
	institution has this. This is where you sign
	into the Special Housing Unit. This is the
	log. And this is showing that they made their
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	1
	rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right
	2
	here, showing that they made their rounds. So,
	3
	at the end of the week, when they send me the
	4
	round sheet, and let's say it looked like this,
	5
	my question would be, okay, did they make
	6
	rounds, or did they forget to make rounds?
	7
	: Is this and this the same
	8
	thing?
	: For the lieutenants, it
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	would be.
	Just the lieutenants?
	And no one else?
	: Yeah. No one else. This is
	computer services. The duty officer has to go
	up there.
	NOw, so --
	Right there.
	- this shows that you
	did two rounds.
	to do one.
	Correct?
	:
	Right.
	: And you are only required
	Yeah.
	AW programs.
	That, she did it on Friday.
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	to that.
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	make rounds.
	266
	: So, the fact that Aw
	operations has nothing in there, is that
	problematic?
	: And here is the other thing
	could have happened. A lot of times, they make
	the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial
	and sign it.
	All right.
	: So, what I would do is, I
	would look at it and say, okay, when I got at
	the end of the week, what happened? How come
	you didn't make rounds?
	So, all of these blank
	spaces, were these people supposed to be doing
	rounds in SHU?
	Not everybody is required.
	They should have been up there, but they are
	not required. Like, the finance facility -
	- The correctional judgement --
	•: - food services.
	: - would be they could go up
	: But health services has to
	You're getting it.
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	267
	The PA's.
	: By the end of the day, man,
	I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated
	going to prison.
	: Psychology. You know?
	: So, which ones on here
	that are actually required to conduct rounds?
	: You have the unit team
	that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants.
	Well, SIS, it doesn't
	appear that they did any rounds.
	: That's -.
	But I'm assuming they
	certainly should have. Correct?
	: SIS should have been up
	there, to go around. So, and again, I would
	look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody
	might have been on leave, not on leave.
	: And what are - so, when
	these type of individuals, it 1o0ks like more
	high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are
	the highest level, what is a warden round look
	like? Do you all have to walk down the range,
	or --
	So, what I --
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	268
	- is that what you do?
	- what I do is, I walk
	around and I go to every cell, and I talk to
	the guy, got any issues, any problems?
	They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have
	some that say, hey, I'm up here for an
	investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up
	here? So, I take my little notes. Okay.
	Fine. Some of it I can address right there,
	some of it I can't. But I would typically walk
	around what we call is the SHU roster. Which,
	that is the reason why you are up there. Why
	am I up here? And, you know,
	a lot of times,
	you go by it, it says -
	: It's because you are a fucking
	mass murderer, that's why you're up here.
	— and, like, you know why
	you are locked up. And then, they would say,
	well, how come the investigation is taking so
	long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it,
	if it was an OIG investigation. It would
	depend. So, you know, I would usually tell
	them, like, you know, it's an outside agency
	handling. We are in contact with them. And
	somebody will come see.
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	okay.
	: Some could be up for
	administrative, like an incident report.
	: So, you went through and
	talked to everybody, but were you required to
	do that, or is it just because you just were a
	good employee?
	•: I mean, that's what you
	should be doing.
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	That's what you should
	do. But I mean, like you talked about before,
	well, the post orders don't say that.
	:
	Well, I don't have post
	orders.
	Right.
	Yeah. So, I mean --
	But you are -. But
	something does say that you are required to do
	it once a week?
	•: There's nothing in writing
	to tell me you have to do it. But just like I
	visit every area, I have to, I visit every area
	of the institution. You know, make sure I see
	every employee going there on the off shifts.
	I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see
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	the staff, but it's -
	2
	: It's a surprise. In other
	3
	words, you are not telling them you are coming,
	4
	you are just going.
	5
	: Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm
	6
	making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to
	7
	staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more
	8
	the issue of them just work. I mean -.
	So, when you say there's
	10
	nothing in writing, saying that you should do
	11
	it, or is there something in writing saying
	12
	these people that didn't do it, that they
	13
	should have done it?
	14
	_: No. And there could be
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	reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would
	get the report and look into - like, there are
	people that make the rounds, they come up to
	SHU but they forget to sign in.
	: Right.
	: So, when I get the report, I
	would, you know, talk to the captain, that this
	the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such
	and such make a round? Now, that AW might have
	been out that week, and I had this one covering
	both. So, they came up with the AW.
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	271
	Now, is there any way to
	determine, like, these people that, for
	instance, visited on Friday, what time they
	visited? Because this is the day that Reyes
	was gone. So, it says the captain was in there
	on Friday.
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	Mm-hmm.
	Should have he noticed
	that Reyes wasn't there?
	Not necessarily. If he
	didn't go down range. And he could have come
	up, and remember, we have Ten South that's
	connected. So, I don't know if he came up
	there, you know, for an issue for Ten South.
	: Mm-hmm.
	So, I don't know. And then,
	him making his rounds, even if he's making his
	rounds, you are going to have empty cells on
	the range.
	oh, you will?
	Yeah.
	Well, somebody -
	Even if -
	- somebody could be at
	medical.
	Somebody could be on an attorney
	visit.
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	So, it wouldn't --
	So -.
	-- it wouldn't caused a
	red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like,
	Epstein's cell empty?
	: Well, if empty cell is
	empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down
	on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made
	during the daytime.
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	And in that note, would
	they say, though, because it says
	, and it looks like was there, too -
	Right.
	-- should have those two
	people, if they actually did a round, say
	Epstein is down there, but where is Reyes?
	: I mean, they could have. I
	mean, but Reyes could have been in the shower.
	Mm-hmm.
	You know? I mean --
	But it wouldn't be
	something that would be normally asked?
	:
	No.
	: It was, like, oh --
	Hmm-mm.
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	- Epstein, high-profile
	guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be -
	No. I mean --
	No.
	- you're just saying, okay,
	Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe
	his cellmate was in attorney visit, it could
	have been on a shower day. He could have been
	in rec.
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	Okay.
	I mean -.
	So, you are more
	concerned about the people that are there, as
	opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like
	that? To check in with them.
	: That, I mean, you want to
	see, making sure you are around, making rounds,
	talking to everyone. So, I don't know what,
	you know, what the thought process is, or, you
	know, if somebody was in the shower or not.
	: Mm-hmm.
	So.
	Sure. No. And I'm not
	trying -
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	that.
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	274
	Mm-hmm.
	- to get you to say
	: How many days a week can you
	take a shower when you're in -?
	: The entire of three times.
	Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and
	Friday.
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	And what about this one?
	This one is from
	to you. Weekly
	rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this --
	The PCU.
	- is this -? So, this
	is the same thing?
	: That's the PCU unit. Wood
	sec unit.
	The wood sec unit.
	Mm-hmm.
	: All right. So, this
	might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this
	is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50).
	Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you
	mind just initialing and dating that?
	: Now, we are getting close to
	the end.
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	:
	Hmm.
	you had two
	follow up questions before we move on. Why
	don't you ask those?
	MR.
	: If the counts and the rounds
	were done --
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	:
	Mm-hmm.
	MR.
	: - as they were supposed to
	be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU
	C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that
	Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was
	actually not where he was supposed to be? In
	terms of that, if he was
	: assigned, if Epstein
	was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was
	transferred, would they have caught onto the
	fact that Epstein needed a cellmate?
	: I don't understand what -.
	MR.
	: Let's say Reyes was
	transferred, right?
	: Mm-hmm.
	: If the counts and the rounds
	MR.
	were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m.
	count, the rounds in between, if they were
	done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the
	fact that Reyes was missing from the cell?
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	276
	But they already knew that.
	: If the word of mouth -.
	: So, the claim is --
	Mm-hmm.
	--
	made up that
	stuff in the memo. And
	never told me that.
	says
	Right.
	bullshit,
	and he's lying.
	Right.
	That they say that's
	The people that he said
	were present say the same thing.
	Right.
	He didn't say that.
	Right.
	So, point being is, well,
	if
	didn't pass that information on, if
	they were actually conducting their rounds,
	should they have noticed that he wasn't there?
	_: Yeah. If they knew that he
	didn't -. If they knew, they knew that -
	what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to
	have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on
	there, that I guess, and on the outside of the
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	cell, they would have his name and the other
	person. Then you should be saying, okay, where
	is the cellmate? We know he's not in the
	attorney room.
	: Okay.
	: So.
	: I got it.
	: So, you know he's down in
	the attorney room. So, you would have said,
	okay, somebody's got to be in that cell.
	: Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a
	way to fuck with the other guys.
	MR.
	: Meaning, if they actually did
	the rounds and the counts like they were
	supposed to, there was more than enough time
	for them to turn around and assign another
	cellmate, if needed.
	: Or to say, of course, to
	your point, where they are saying that nobody
	ever told them, if you were making your rounds,
	you would have saw that there was nobody in
	that cell, and then ask you a question, where
	he's at.
	: And the person whose job it is
	to make sure they are doing their rounds is the
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	lieutenant or the captain?
	: On the shift, it is the
	lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness
	to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a
	sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your
	rounds, and then, something like this happens,
	then you find out people didn't make their
	rounds.
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	And I think what
	question to you was, does this suggest to you
	that they were not actually conducting their
	rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24
	hours, and the notifications weren't made?
	: It would appear that that is
	the appearance.
	: (Indiscernible *03:18:07).
	: Yeah. I mean.
	: I just have one other
	MR.
	question.
	: When I do cross examinations,
	and it says, it would appear that, yeah,
	that's, yeah, somebody found.
	MR.
	: Have you ever heard of C.O.s
	pre-filling round sheets?
	When he says pre-filling,
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	what he is saying is that, the beginning of
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	their shift, they are going in and they are
	3
	just writing, they are initialing and putting
	4
	in the time. At the very beginning, for the
	5
	rest of their shift.
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	: So, let me put it to you
	this way.
	MR.
	If I --
	: I saw you smile —
	MR.
	:
	- no, no.
	: -- when he asked that.
	: Because if I become aware
	and know that somebody is doing something like
	that, that is reportable misconduct.
	I'm going
	to report that. So, if somebody came to me and
	said, well, this person is pre-filling out
	count slips, that would be something that I
	would say, okay, you know, I have to do a
	referral, or if I don't have enough evidence
	for it, I would have a supervisor, you know,
	put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count
	slips.
	So, if we have people
	confessing, admitting that they are not only
	pre-filling out their count slips, but also
	doing it with their round sheets --
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	Right.
	- what is your response
	to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that?
	: Well, that is a referral. I
	would have to do a referral for you guys to
	look into it.
	: And then, if they are
	actually pre-filling those out, does that also
	suggest to you that they didn't do their counts
	of their rounds?
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	: Well, I mean, if they're
	telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's
	obvious that they did not, they are not
	counting.
	Right.
	Because if somebody is pre-
	filling out a sheet, that means --
	: They're not counting.
	- they have no intention of
	counting.
	: And does that indicate to
	you, as the warden, that they are falsely
	certifying rounds and counts that they did not
	conduct?
	: If they come to you, and
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	they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't
	done our count slip, that is an admission of
	misconduct.
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	Right. But a false
	certification, as well. Correct?
	: Yeah. That is falsifying the
	document. I mean, but they have admitted that
	to you. But as far as --
	Now, what if you -
	me -.
	- what if they are
	saying - they are a newer employer - and they
	are saying, well, we are doing it because we
	watched a 20-year guy do it. That's how I
	learned. He didn't tell me to do it. But I
	watched him do it.
	So --
	So, I did that.
	- I would -. So, I would
	say to you, when did that person come in?
	Because anybody that came in under me, you get
	the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an
	officer. I know what it is to be new. But I
	always, always tell people, you got to know
	what's near and dear to you.
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	you specifically -
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	annual training?
	I have --
	282
	And that is why I asked
	•: Right.
	- with
	Are
	you confident that you gave her that spiel?
	: Talk to whoever was in her
	class, and you talk to any, any new class that
	came through, and they will tell you my spiel.
	okay.
	Okay? You can go into our
	annual training, when we have it, talk to
	people, and they will tell you about my spiel.
	: Do you say that always at
	: I cover everything. Because
	: Yeah, but do you always say
	is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't
	do it just because the 20-year-old guy did
	that.
	:
	I do. I tell people about
	doing their job. The same thing when it comes
	to use of force. I tell staff all the time.
	Use enough force necessary to control the
	situation.
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	come in --
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	283
	But specifically about
	not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that
	you tell them?
	So, what I tell them is, I
	: Because it sounds like it
	is the same thing you tell them every time.
	•: - right. So, what I
	basically tell them, I said, you got some good
	people that work in the institution. And then,
	I had, you got some people with time, that just
	want to do what they want to do. And I tell
	them, don't follow them around. I said, you've
	got one. If you are on probation coming in,
	you need to be doing your job. I said, if
	someone comes in, and they're not doing their
	job, or they're telling you not to do
	something, you make sure you let your
	supervisor know.
	I said, I make rounds, you
	can talk to me.
	: okay.
	: You know? So, the
	expectation was clear. But with any other
	agency - and I'm not just saying our agency -
	there are people that come in and they become
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	followers.
	on.
	call.
	284
	Now, we're going to move
	Mm-hmm.
	We talked about the phone
	Right.
	On August 9th. What is
	your understanding of what transpired with
	Epstein being provided a phone call on the
	night of August 9th, 2019?
	: So, from what I understand,
	when you come in, you have to be able to do,
	for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and
	all that. So, from what I understand
	afterwards, Epstein was never available for
	that to be done. Because he went down to the
	attorney room, and he would come up at night.
	So, from what I understand, he was given an
	unmonitored call.
	: And what do you mean by
	an "unmonitored call"?
	: An unmonitored call is a
	call that is not recorded with the inmate phone
	system.
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	285
	: Is it your -
	: In other words, they don't
	listen to what you say?
	:
	Right. They don't.
	-- is it your
	understanding that anyone physically monitored
	the call, or did you -?
	: From what I understand, the
	individual was standing right there when he
	made the call.
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	All right. So, it is our
	understanding that, "On August 9th, 2019,
	Epstein made a request to MCC unit manager,
	, to provide him with a phone
	call, so that he - Epstein - could call his
	mother.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	checked Epstein's
	pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set
	up.
	_ :
	Mm-hmm.
	: Therefore,
	Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and
	plugged a phone into a legal line.
	dialed the number. A man answered.
	took
	He handed
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	the phone to Epstein. And then,
	left
	for the day.
	stayed -".
	oh, sorry.
	Mm-hmm.
	"Then we found out that
	the SHU C.O.s were around.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	: And
	did not
	specifically instruct any one of them to
	monitor their phone call. Instead, he called
	the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make
	sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein
	after his allotted time." Had you heard that
	before?
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	: I have -. What I heard was
	he was there and did the monitoring.
	: So, your understanding
	was there the entire time of
	was that,
	his call?
	:
	That, at the entire time of
	his call.
	: So, a number of questions
	off of that. The fact that
	dialed the
	number that he gave him, and a man called. A
	man answered. Who, he said he was calling his
	mother.
	A man answered and he gave him the
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	phone.
	Is that problematic to you?
	: I didn't hear that it was a
	-. Who did I -? They said it was his -.
	MR.
	: So, that information might
	have come out after.
	: It came out after. I didn't
	- I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't
	hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. I
	forgot who they said it was that called, but
	then afterwards, they said, whoever they said
	it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that
	talk.
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	I think it was his
	mother.
	: Yeah. I think it might -.
	So, and that, that is what I heard.
	: His --
	:Yeah.
	: - his mother died during the
	time of this investigation.
	_ :
	Hmm.
	MR.
	1: She was previously deceased.
	: Deceased.
	: So, wait, wait, wait, wait,
	wait.
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	mother.
	4
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	to his mother.
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	dead.
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	288
	Yeah.
	: So, he calls, looking for his
	He said he wanted to talk
	: But his mother was already
	Right.
	: And the person who
	answered the phone was a male. But he still
	gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that
	problematic? That he says he wants to talk to
	his mother. A man answers. And then gives the
	phone to Mr. Epstein.
	: Well, remember, I am hearing
	this, that it was a call that all along said
	I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything
	about a man answering the phone.
	No, no, no, no, no. I'm
	providing this information as in, like, you are
	the warden, what is your take on this? Did he
	do something wrong there?
	: Well, as far as, you know,
	you are saying you want to talk to your mother,
	and the --
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	phone.
	the phone.
	unmonitored line?
	isn't recorded?
	that it's -
	289
	And a man answers the
	: - and then, a man answers
	the phone. Yeah. It might have been some
	questions he should have been asking.
	Should have he verified
	who it was he was providing -? If he is giving
	him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored
	line, should have he verified who it was that
	was on that other line?
	: Right. If a male picked up
	: Why do you know it's an
	: Because the legal line
	•: Right.
	: So, that means unmonitored,
	Yeah. That you can't -.
	: - it's not recorded.
	:
	Right.
	Correct.
	: Okay.
	On that note, were there
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	any lines that Mr.
	• could have plugged
	the phone into, that were monitored, versus if
	they didn't have a pack and PIN?
	: Not on the ranges, I
	believe. I'm not sure.
	: No?
	I don't think there was
	:
	anything on there.
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	Because, yeah, we had
	been told by someone that many, if not most,
	BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and
	PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are
	lines that you could plug it into, that are
	monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case --
	No.
	-- in SHU?
	Not on the ranges.
	okay.
	No.
	MR.
	: You said not on the ranges?
	Yeah.
	MR.
	1: Where would it be?
	: I'm not sure. I think
	religious services might have a line. The
	Chaplin.
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	speaker phone?
	listen.
	291
	But not in the SHU?
	Not in the SHU.
	: Okay. So, not only did
	he do that, but he then left the SHU for the
	day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there
	and listen to the call. Correct?
	Right.
	Should have he put it on
	Either listen to the call,
	or if he had somebody else take over the call.
	: Okay.
	You know, so, somebody
	should have been monitoring the call.
	: Right.
	Just to stand there and
	All right. Now, the fact
	that, you know, obviously,
	dropped the
	ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted
	to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a
	male answered.
	:
	Right.
	Second, he didn't stay to
	listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell
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	anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the
	fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the
	fact that the other people are in the unit,
	should have they then, at some point, also
	said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call,
	let's go monitor it, or should have that been
	something that
	--
	Yeah, you couldn't -
	- would have directed?
	- you couldn't -. But
	that's what I'm saying. I don't know the
	conversation that took place between them. If
	the call was made, and somebody was told to go
	monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not
	go over it?
	NO.
	So, I don't -.
	So, MI.
	told the
	people --
	Right.
	-- he's on a phone call.
	Get it back after - whenever it was - 15
	minutes.
	Mm-hmm.
	They were giving him an
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	unmonitored call.
	: The significance of this is
	that, if somebody had monitored the phone call,
	they might have found out that he was very
	depressed, or he was -?
	Well, there is -. Can
	you tell us, why is it important for us to know
	that what inmates are talking about on their
	phone calls?
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	I mean, just for the safety
	and the security of the institution.
	: Is it true that they
	could potentially operate their businesses,
	their illegal businesses, from there?
	You could.
	Or they call a hit on
	someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of
	different illegal activities, if we are not
	monitoring those calls --
	: Right. That's --
	-- that we wouldn't know
	--
	: — why we monitor them.
	: All right. I have one more
	story.
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	Yeah. Right.
	: I'm a young lawyer. And I
	know it's hard to believe I was ever young.
	But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison -
	and I go to the interview, and he says, this
	person is the main rat against, and I said, no,
	he's not. I said, that person has got no -
	fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say
	nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says,
	oh, man, I better make a phone call.
	: So, is it standard
	practice to allow inmates to make personal
	calls, as
	had done?
	: You do I, sometimes if they
	come in, they don't have a pack number. Like,
	you could have a family member that has passed
	away, and, you know, you allow them to make a
	call under that circumstance. You know, I have
	a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes,
	but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes,
	you make a call to another agency. And the
	inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is
	such and such. But you stay and you listen to
	the conversation.
	Was there ever an
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	instance that you wouldn't listen to the
	conversation?
	: On an unmonitored line?
	: Mm-hmm.
	No. Somebody should be
	standing there.
	295
	: All right. And what are
	your thoughts on this specific matter from what
	we just, from what I just told you?
	: Like I said, if it's
	problematic, if you said, if it's the way you
	said it, yeah.
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	And is it a serious
	concern and safety violation?
	: Well, yeah. I mean, it's a
	breach.
	And why?
	Because we don't know what
	the conversation was.
	Okay. You said -. Okay.
	You answered that. These are just on this
	note, there is just a couple of these. There
	is a phone call. This one says it's from an
	Do you know who that is?
	Yeah. He's the supervisory
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	attorney.
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	So, he is an attorney?
	oh, okay. That's the same guy.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	Supervisory staff
	attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey
	Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find
	complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you
	check to see if he has toilet paper, and that
	his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned
	regarding his complaint of having had two
	calls, but they were on unmonitored lines.
	there is no recording of them. His phone
	account is set up, so we could get a call on
	the ITS, when 30 days has -
	Mm-hmm.
	- elapsed. "
	So,
	Mm-hmm.
	So, it looks like this
	was actually discussed, and this again, was on
	August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It
	looks like this was the whole, to the whole
	executive staff --
	Right.
	- team. Was this talked
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	about at all?
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	297
	: It was sent out, and that's
	when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said
	he needs to get his stuff set up. Anything --
	: okay.
	: - that he needs, needs to
	get it set up. So, I believe that was the day
	when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney
	room area, and said, get his stuff set up.
	Now, did you - the
	captain, I believe, informed
	that he
	would give him this call, just make sure it's
	monitored.
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	Mm-hmm.
	Prior to that, did the
	captain talk to you about this at all?
	:
	About what?
	: Well, affording this un,
	you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but
	just making sure it was monitored?
	No.
	: No?
	Hmm-mm.
	But what you had said,
	make sure his pack and PIN is set up?
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	..
	Yeah. I had to. Because
	there was some other things to get set up, and
	I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can
	get his stuff going. If that's the date, if I
	remember, where everyone went up and talked to
	him at the, where he was in the attorney room.
	Okay. Now, this is one
	that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were
	you able to print out that attachment?
	MR.
	: No. That's just our screen.
	It's not what they would see.
	I was just hoping -.
	Okay.
	So, this is one we got. It's something
	from
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	Mm-hmm.
	: And who is that?
	That's the communication
	guy.
	Correct. And he is in
	charge of, like, the phones --
	The phones.
	: -- the cameras.
	Right.
	Correct?
	Mm-hmm.
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	And he's to you, and it
	says,
	"Phone record 104."
	Right.
	Sent on Saturday, August
	10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an
	attachment here, titled 8.19.19. cap.
	Mm-hmm.
	That we are unable to
	open. Do you know what that would have been?
	It appears that it is related to the phone call
	that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you
	ever received a recording of that phone call?
	No. I didn't get any
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	recordings.
	: Would it have --
	Nuh-uh.
	-- been, maybe, then, the
	number that he dialed?
	•: I think it might -. And it
	might have been the number. I'm not sure. I
	can't -. I don't recall.
	okay.
	What that is.
	Mr.
	Do you remember asking
	to provide you with any specific
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	initialing -
	that . cap was.
	300
	information with regards to the call?
	: We might have called him
	about the line, and what was the number that
	was called.
	okay.
	: And could they have pulled
	it up. So, we might have asked him that.
	: But it definitely wasn't
	an actual recording on the phone?
	No. It was --
	Okay.
	- I think it might have
	been the number that, you know, I think wanting
	to pass on to the FBI.
	Great.
	Uh-huh.
	Do you mind just
	: Mm-hmm.
	Mm-hmm.
	- and dating that?
	I just didn't know what
	Right.
	So, we didn't know, oh my
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	gosh, do we have a recording of this thing?
	MR.
	1: The second one, too.
	_: okay.
	: All right. Now, we are
	going to get into the actual incident.
	: oh my God. Now,
	(Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get
	into.
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	We don't have much more.
	I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -
	: Yeah.
	- yeah. What is your
	understanding of what occurred in Epstein's
	cell on August 10th, 2019?
	I don't know.
	You don't know?
	I didn't go up there.
	: Do you -.
	I never saw the cell.
	Do you believe if -. Do
	you know if Epstein took his own life?
	: That's what I've been told.
	Is that your
	understanding of what happened?
	That was what was conveyed
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	302
	Do you have any
	information, with regard to anyone else taking
	Epstein's life?
	: No.
	: No. Have you heard that
	Epstein's cell door was left opened on the
	night of August 9th, 2019, and/or the morning
	of August 10th, 2019?
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	I didn't hear that.
	You have never heard
	that?
	No.
	Have you heard that any
	cellmate's in the SHU - any cells within the
	SHU, any of their doors were left opened on the
	night of August 9th, 2019 in the morning?
	I did not hear that.
	On August 9th. No?
	Hmm-mm.
	Do you know if anyone
	harmed Epstein?
	: No. I would have reported
	it.
	All right. So, these are
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	the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons
	Health Services Clinical Encounter.
	Right.
	Did you get to review
	this one at all?
	:
	No.
	It talks about responding
	to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency.
	_: I think I might have saw the
	memorandums, but I don't -. I don't recall
	seeing this.
	All right. So, let me
	just read this, for the record --
	Mm-hmm.
	- because it is a very
	quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm
	at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South.
	Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor
	of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress
	by correctional officers. The inmate was cold
	with circumferential bruising around the neck
	and posterior mottling.
	Pupils fixed and
	dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59)
	pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued.
	ED placed. No shock advised.
	CPR
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	continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment
	room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock
	(Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going
	to read the rest of this. It just talks about
	continued CPR in progress. Are you aware,
	after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019,
	at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show
	any signs of life?
	: I never -. I wasn't up
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	there.
	Yeah. I just didn't know
	if you had heard --
	No. When I --
	-- (Indiscernible
	*03:36:34).
	- when I got there, he was
	already out.
	Because they said that,
	you know, he was declared deceased at the
	hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like,
	from this person's report --
	: Yeah.
	-- he was --
	: Right.
	-- there was no signs of
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	:
	And that's --
	: And I was just wondering,
	had you heard anything from staff? Was there
	ever any signs of life, that you are aware of,
	while after - from the point he was found, on.
	: Well, the impression that I
	was given was, he was alive when he left the
	institution.
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	So, you believed he was
	actually alive?
	That's what was conveyed.
	It was conveyed to you
	that -?
	: I think he was still alive,
	if I remember right. I think he was -. They
	did the CPR. And then, they got him out.
	: And who -. So, according
	to this, again, this person arrived at 6:35 --
	Mm-hmm.
	- they're saying the
	inmate was cold. You know, "Pupils fixed and
	dilated. No palpus pulses." Meaning, I'm
	assuming, that means no pulse. You know?
	So, you would probably have
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	to look at the response, the staff responding
	memorandums on what -.
	: So, up until this date,
	did you think that he was alive when he had
	left the institution?
	: That's what I believed.
	That was the impression I had.
	: Can I ask a question? Right.
	If he was dead when they came, and somebody
	found him, or even if he was close to death,
	how long would it have been that he tried to
	kill himself, and the time that they found him?
	In other words, does
	that mean he tried to kill
	himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he
	tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You
	understand the question I'm asking?
	: Sure. I mean, that is
	something that the medical examiner, you know,
	makes that determination.
	: Because obviously, if he was,
	had done whatever he did, during the time that
	there was supposed to be a round, and somebody
	fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are
	there, with a towel around your throat, that's
	a hint that you are not exactly in the best of
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	moods.
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	Mm-hmm.
	: But the other thing is, you
	know, I don't know, like you just said, the
	medical examiner determines, you know, if he's
	alive or -.
	Well, and that was going
	to become my follow up. First of all, who -
	this person. It says provider, Joseph Columbo,
	RN. Is that someone who worked at -?
	He was one of the nurses
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	that worked.
	: Mm-hmm.
	All right. And is it
	your understanding, by saying provider, this is
	the person who wrote this report?
	: Yeah. Typically, who has
	the encounter fills it, writes it in the
	system.
	Okay. So, up until me
	reading these out, you actually were under the
	assumption that he was alive?
	Yeah.
	When he left.
	I thought he was alive.
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	Yeah. That was my assumption.
	Okay. Does that have
	anything to do with the fact that the medical
	examiner is the only one who can declare him
	dead?
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	It does, too.
	: All right. And also --
	Yeah.
	- I have heard that
	inmates don't die at prisons.
	: Well, I mean, people say
	that, but again, in reality, we - no one in the
	prison can declare an inmate dead.
	Right, right, right.
	Even if -.
	But is that what you mean
	by that statement, though? Did you -. I mean,
	had you heard that he showed signs from life?
	From what --
	Because we have heard
	this --
	-- from --
	- type of thing --
	-- yeah, from what I --
	-- before.
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	- hear, they were still
	performing life-saving measures on him, even
	when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming
	in there. So, when you say to me that we are
	performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming
	that he is still alive.
	: Right. Like, there is --
	so - .
	- always a chance you
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	could bring him back.
	That, you know -
	Or you are hoping that
	you are going to resuscitate him. But do you
	know of any indication of --
	: That he was successful --
	- signs of life?
	: -- yeah.
	: I didn't. Again, I'm going
	off of, assuming that he was still alive
	because they were still working on him.
	: okay.
	: So, and if somebody start,
	now, I've been in situations where the
	paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on
	them, and they say, you know what? There is
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	nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been
	declared dead.
	Sure.
	But they still -.
	: Right.
	: But from what I gather, they
	were still working on them.
	: When you say nobody dies in
	prison, you are being facetious?
	It's just one of those
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	things that --
	: Yeah. It doesn't -.
	- it happens at the -
	: Yeah.
	- at the hospital.
	: Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	That's where they are
	declared dead.
	: Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	: Right.
	Okay.
	: And that's not, you know,
	necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are -
	like, sometimes --
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	It's sort of a joke.
	-- yeah.
	: To (Indiscernible *03:40:46).
	: It's a joke. Because
	sometimes, the bodies are still there, and --
	Right.
	-- and we know he is
	deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical
	examiner --
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	: Yeah.
	-- declares --
	: At the hospital --
	:
	-- (Indiscernible
	*03:40:57).
	: -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57)
	Right.
	: The guy's got a big
	(Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know --
	Uh-huh.
	: - whatever they call them,
	knives in his chest.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	: You know, you can tell he's
	not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm
	saying,
	(Indiscernible *03:41:04).
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	Uh-huh.
	But just, I just want to
	be clear, because with that statement, without
	me getting a little more clarification, people
	are going to read, wait a second, the warden
	said that he was still, he thought he was still
	alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear.
	Are you saying that there was a chance for them
	to bring him back, or based upon the
	conversation with someone - and my follow would
	be that, who? - did you believe that he was
	still alive?
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	My assumption, from when I
	was called, was they were working on him, and
	he was - they were being taken to the hospital.
	: Okay.
	: That's --
	: That was --
	:
	-- that's the term.
	: - that -. Wait. You were
	called at a certain time.
	:
	Yeah.
	When the lieutenant
	called.
	: Okay. Now, the lieutenant
	says -.
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	: So, when you came back
	and found out, did you ever find out that he
	wasn't showing signs of life, when you came in
	and talked to people?
	: No. Because I - first of
	all, when it happened, I wasn't going around
	questioning people about --
	Okay.
	: — okay, what's going on
	with this, because then, I knew that it was a
	criminal case. But not criminal, but there was
	going to be an investigation into it. And so,
	I didn't want to give the appearance of
	anything, that I was interfering with any
	investigation. But when I did call, they said
	they were working on him, and that, you know,
	he was being transported to the outside
	hospital.
	And who was it that
	provided you with that information?
	: The lieutenant. Lieutenant
	: So, you drew the inference
	that that
	Uh-huh.
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	: - meant he was still alive?
	: Right. I assumed that, you
	know, they were still working on him, and he
	was still alive.
	And after that
	conversation, though, and speaking with other
	people, you never gathered that, oh, he was,
	they were working on him, attempting to bring
	him back, but he was not alive?
	I didn't -.
	From -.
	The assumption, my
	assumption, was that he was deceased at the
	hospital.
	okay.
	Yeah. So.
	All right. Do you want
	to follow up on that at all, anymore?
	MR. A No.
	]:
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay.
	MR.
	: That kind of covers it.
	: Are we through now?
	:
	No.
	No.
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	oh, god.
	We only have, really,
	very brief conversations left. All right. So,
	this was an email sent from you, to
	It just says, subject, "Names."
	Mm-hmm.
	: It says
	Mm-hmm.
	and
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	Mm-hmm.
	Who were -? Why were
	those people listed?
	: Because he wanted to know
	who was working up there that night.
	: okay.
	Who was the staff working
	:
	there that night.
	So, why did you write
	versus, like,
	, or who else was
	up there? Was Shack (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25)
	still there?
	MR.
	1: No.
	Was
	: At least
	and
	left off for any reason?
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	Because I think L
	worked --
	I think this --
	: - until midnight, and
	only worked until 10:00.
	: No. For - and I don't -
	correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know if he
	wanted to know who was on the midnight shift.
	And then, I included who was on Ten South. I'm
	not sure.
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	I think
	was
	the OIC of the shift previous. And then, just
	would have --
	-- and
	were the ones
	from --
	MR.
	- been two up there.
	-- midnight afterwards.
	Yeah.
	And then -.
	1 I think that Ten South was
	: Yeah. So, I don't know,
	remember it. But I know it had to do with the
	question about who was working.
	: Okay.
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	So, I don't know the
	specifics and why it listed those three.
	: And you don't know if,
	like, because these were, who we considered the
	subjects.
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	: No. I mean, these two would
	have been obvious because they were working up
	there on the midnight shift. But I don't know
	why
	got thrown in there.
	okay.
	Mm-hmm.
	Mind just initial and
	dating that?
	Okay. And this one is an email
	from Captain
	to you, dated Sunday,
	August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A
	memorandum, Epstein."
	Mm-hmm.
	And it says that this was
	dated August 10th, 2019.
	Mm-hmm.
	It's from Captain
	It says, subject is, "Security expectations
	involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey."
	Mm-hmm.
	Are you familiar with
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	this? Did you ever see this, that he sent?
	I did.
	: Do you know what the
	purpose of this was?
	Let me read it again.
	"(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this
	could be conducted, I did, I informed staff
	(Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with
	inmate Epstein, and others were notified. I
	explained that lieutenants were to conduct
	(Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point,
	(Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I
	could, and they would not (Indiscernible
	*03:45:15)." Oh, no. I just was asking him
	when the thing happened, what is the guidance
	he provided?
	So, what did he provide
	to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant?
	Because --
	Yeah.
	-- at least the last
	little point on this first page -
	Yeah.
	- so, it says, "In
	detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant,
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	he was informed of my expectations regarding
	2
	the supervision of inmate Epstein,
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	specifically, he was reminded on several
	occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed
	with a cellmate."
	Right.
	So, is this all, like,
	the expectations surrounding --
	:
	The expectations.
	: - Epstein?
	Right. Mm-hmm.
	And when he says, "During
	the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to
	address management concerns with inmate
	Epstein," do you know what he is talking about
	there? With management concerns.
	: The housing of them. And in
	the Special Housing Unit.
	okay. And do you know
	if, according to this, it looks like he is
	saying that he did perform an informal training
	sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in
	fact, did that, or is it just based upon --
	Just based upon --
	- what he wrote here?
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	you?
	that.
	320
	- on what he sent out.
	Okay. So, there is no
	other information, aside from what he's telling
	: Right. Yeah. He told me
	So, this one is - I want
	to get your take on this matter - so, this is
	back to
	who was relieved
	at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at
	least until 9:30, and sent out that email,
	detailing, you know, what day, and the
	lieutenant's 1og, and the daily activity log.
	So, Captain
	sent her an email on
	8/12/2019, stating, "Lieutenant
	1, I am
	reminding you to submit your supervisory
	memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that
	occurred on 8/10/2019.
	Please have it complete and ready for
	submission on 8/13/2019."
	She responded with
	no, addressing nothing, just saying, just
	responded simply, "In your email, you state,
	quote, I am reminding you.' End quote. I
	haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding
	the incident involving inmate Epstein or
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	anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019.
	So, how is it possible for you to be reminding
	me? Second, I have been properly relieved,
	prior to the incident involving inmate
	Epstein." What is your take on that email?
	: First of all, any major
	incident that takes place in the institution,
	we have to do what is called a report of
	incident.
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	Sure.
	: He is well within the scope
	of his employment, asking, okay, where is your,
	where is -. And I don't know if he was asking
	her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the
	shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident
	took place. So, technically, you should have
	been doing the packet. So, he is probably
	contacting her for that.
	Well, she was relieved at
	5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the
	incident happened at 6:30. And again, she aws
	there at least until 9:30. And she did respond
	to the SHU afterwards, helping with the
	feeding. Should have she written a memorandum?
	Yes.
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	Yes?
	I mean, she said she
	responded to the incident?
	: She didn't respond to the
	incident. She responded after the incident, to
	help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with
	the inmates.
	: So, she - Well -.
	: So, somebody told her that the
	fucking guy hung himself, should she have -.
	Right?
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	_: Again, from what I gather, I
	am under the impression, when the lieutenant
	relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you
	know, and I can't speculate on what was there.
	So, if we -.
	She said she stuck
	around, working on matters that she needed to
	catch up on.
	Okay. So --
	But it sounds like
	manipulating those numbers on the counts and
	stuff.
	Okay.
	Right?
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	-
	point.
	323
	:
	So, let me ask you this
	question. I have, I have a medical emergency.
	A suicide, right? That is an emergency
	everyone in the institution has to respond to.
	Why didn't you respond to it?
	: So, you think that she
	maybe came back after?
	It doesn't make sense to say
	: Well, she never sent out
	her required logs, though.
	_: Right. So, that, but --
	: So, you reviewed her
	emails. And I would think that she would have
	sent that out, if she had left, I would think
	she would have sent that out before she left.
	Right? As required.
	: Right. So, did you leave
	and come back? I mean, because if you are
	saying that you were there, you would have been
	one of the first responders up to the unit.
	: Yeah,
	For the emergency.
	That's a really good
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	fishy.
	of that.
	-
	and say -
	324
	You know?
	: In other words --
	: I wish we had --
	: - they're saying it sounds
	- I wish we had thought
	I mean, so, and then, if you
	And if she didn't, why?
	- and if you didn't
	respond, why didn't you respond?
	If she -. Is it a claim
	at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't
	technically working?
	: If you are in the building,
	you have to respond.
	: Is that right?
	It's an emergency.
	okay.
	I mean, as a lieutenant --
	Okay.
	- I would want to respond,
	And so, the fact that she
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	states that she was there, and she was working
	on her administrative responsibilities --
	: Right.
	- so, is that a problem,
	then, as the warden? What do you mean you are
	working on the administrative? You should have
	responded to that emergency.
	: No. But - and I don't want
	to speculate on when you are there - but I
	just, there is just some questions --
	: Wait, and I think -
	:
	- they just don't --
	: -- that is a yes or a no --
	: Right.
	* - you know, question.
	: Yeah. I mean, it's a
	problem. If you are saying I am working on it,
	okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I
	need to, because once they had said, hey, I
	have a suicide or something going on, which is
	probably over, you know,
	a real medical
	emergency, and you hear the transmission on the
	radio, you are going to go up there.
	So then,
	you say, oh, I went up there later, to help
	with the feeding. Either way, you were in the
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	building. The captain is asking you, it
	happened on your shift, you are responsible for
	conducting the report of incident.
	: So, that answer is yes,
	she should have written a memorandum?
	: She should have written one.
	I don't understand why she didn't, you know?
	: And is that at all -
	reading how she responded - is that
	insubordination at all, to you?
	•: Listen. I will put it this
	way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how
	they tolerate, but if you had given me a
	memorandum like this, we would be having a
	conversation. You know?
	: Is that, at the very
	least, inappropriate --
	_: I think --
	-- I think it's
	inappropriate. I mean, that's the way —-
	I mean, I read it. I
	thought it was inappropriate.
	-- yeah.
	I just didn't know how --
	I would have gone to have a
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	conversation, like, you know, first, are you
	all right? And then, secondly, what is this?
	But yeah.
	Fair enough.
	: Okay, listen, one last
	question.
	327
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	Sure.
	: Does that give the implication
	that she is covering up for somebody, or she
	just didn't do her job?
	: I don't know.
	: We don't know. That's -.
	Had you heard anything about her covering up
	for someone? Because -.
	: I haven't heard anything,
	but, you know -
	: Did you hear about
	inmates saying that she was making statements
	that she was going to cover for other people?
	: Again, I don't want to make
	any statements --
	No, no, I'm asking you -
	- that are not factual.
	(Indiscernible *03:51:56).
	-- did you ever hear -?
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	328
	No, I didn't hear anything.
	: I would hate to --
	: You never heard it.
	:
	Right.
	: -- I would hate to give my own
	client a hard time.
	_: Right.
	: But, but it sounds to me like
	she's got three hours where she knows this guy
	is dead.
	_: Right.
	: You know? And she don't say
	much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would
	be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck
	is going on? Excuse my language, by the way.
	I have a filthy mouth.
	: No. I mean, I understand
	what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my
	point of view is - and my concern - is -
	: Yup.
	-- if you were there --
	: Your concern is, you would
	have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked
	her a question first --
	Right.
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	which is --
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	329
	: - rather than jumping into,
	: Because I was --
	: - which is what I did.
	-- under the impression,
	because when Lieutenant
	called me, he was
	the operations lieutenant, and he had relieved
	her.
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	Right.
	She had gone home already.
	wel1, he had certainly
	relieved her, but --
	Yeah.
	- according to her, she
	hadn't gone home.
	Yeah.
	Do you mind just
	initialing and dating that?
	:
	MR.
	Yeah.
	1: Maybe you asked this
	question. And I just want to clarify. Being
	that she started this shift 10:00 p.m. the
	night before, right?
	MR.
	Mm-hmm.
	: Let's say this incident did
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	1
	happen. We're not saying she did. We don't
	2
	know. If she went in and she altered the
	3
	lieutenant logs, for the previous shift, did
	4
	she do something wrong?
	5
	well, and again, we are
	6
	knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m.
	7
	So, that is still her shift.
	8
	MR.
	: Yeah. But -
	We've had this
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	conversation --
	MR.
	: —- no, no, but --
	: -- before.
	MR.
	1: -- let's just say, you know,
	the fact that the inmate wasn't moved until
	midnight, and then the clarification, and the
	count, the count numbers being changed in
	there. Now, so, the lieutenant 1og count
	numbers are accurate, except the count, the
	actual count slips, were completely off.
	So,
	somewhere along the way, someone altered those
	numbers to --
	MR.
	:
	Well --
	: -- correct it.
	:
	- the lieutenant is
	required to take a count on each shift. So --
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	count --
	SHU count.
	331
	So,
	see, wait.
	- you got the -
	: - the lieutenant is supposed
	to take in a count. Right?
	: Right. Just to take one
	: He's supposed to --
	-- on shift.
	An institutional count.
	Institutional count.
	: Okay.
	Not a physical, in the
	: Okay. So, now —-
	: But now, if you
	(Indiscernible *03:53:53).
	: —- I got to shut up.
	_: Yeah. Go ahead.
	: He's supposed to take a count.
	_: Right.
	: Right? And he's supposed to
	enter the count.
	_: Right.
	: Right? Okay. And there was a
	count entered, right? And there is no question
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	that, at
	some point, the count was altered?
	MR.
	1: The count was wrong.
	: The count was wrong.
	: Okay. Okay.
	Well, no --
	: Yeah. (Indiscernible
	*03:54:14) --
	- what he's saying is it
	was altered.
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	MR.
	: -- (Indiscernible *03:54:15) .
	: I'm talking about the numbers
	-
	So, if you recall -
	MR.
	1:
	- on the paperwork.
	- on August 9th, 2019,
	the lieutenant's log says, at midnight, there
	was 72 in the SHU. The count slip says 73.
	Mm-hmm.
	And the lieutenant's log
	for the next day at midnight says there was 73.
	_ :
	Mm-hmm.
	: So, what Agent
	is
	asking is, well, that obviously goes to show
	that she went back and changed those numbers to
	12, because --
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	333
	: But what is her motive --
	- that midnight --
	: - to do that?
	: - she says she was just
	trying to make things accurate.
	: But what would be an ulterior
	motive that would create the idea that she was
	doing something wrong?
	It goes back to when you
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	asked --
	: Mm-hmm.
	: -- is there something to
	do with a cover up?
	: So, if - and granted,
	mistakes are made in the log - but you also
	annotate that in the log. Like, you will put,
	okay, late entry. Because typically, if you
	say the log is done already, when you go back
	and make changes, you make changes for this
	reason alone. An investigator comes in, 1o0ks
	at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it 1o0ks
	like you've been playing, you went back and
	just changed the numbers. So, you can put in
	there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain
	what your change was, and what the mistake was.
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	334
	So, really, with this -
	_: You know?
	: -- to show a malicious intent
	in her part, there's got to be something that
	influences her to protect one of the people
	that were - no question - were fucking around.
	Right? The two guys that were fucking around
	ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one
	of them is her friend, then she's got a
	malicious motive to go try and cover for that
	guy. Like, did $8,000 (Indiscernible
	*03:55:58) police officer, he says, well, I
	thought he drew a gun on me.
	_: Right.
	• And I shot him.
	: Yeah.
	: Oh, okay. Nobody else saw
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	that.
	: Yeah.
	But you are not aware of
	her involvement at all, you said, or -
	As far as what?
	- covering up for them,
	or involvement in Epstein's death?
	No. She wouldn't have had
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	that?
	335
	that conversation with them.
	: And you weren't - until
	now, it sounds like - even aware that she was
	at the institution after 5:30 a.m.?
	I was told she left.
	: Okay.
	Yeah.
	And again, who told you
	The operations lieutenant.
	Because he called me and he says, hey, I
	relieved --
	--
	Sorry.
	Yeah.
	Okay. And did you have -
	before we move on to the next subject - do you
	have any more on that?
	MR.
	1: No.
	: So now, we are going to
	talk about the cameras.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	Were the SHU cameras
	recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019?
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	were not recording?
	conversation.
	336
	I didn't physically go check
	to see if they were, were recording or not.
	: Did you learn that they
	: Yeah. We found out
	afterwards, that they weren't recording.
	: Wait. Wait. We had this
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	: Right.
	: The cameras don't work in a
	lot of these institutions. Right?
	: Yeah. Yeah.
	: All right. And that's because
	they didn't spend the fucking money to make
	sure the cameras work.
	Well, it's -
	: And I got to stop saying
	"fuck."
	:
	- that's the issue, too,
	funding, and, you know, so, since that
	incident, I guess there was some audits done by
	the agency, and they realized that it was kind
	of a system (Indiscernible *03:57:15) .
	: But you see, the issue is,
	should you have checked why weren't the cameras
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	working?
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	337
	Well, that's my question
	is, do you know why they were not working?
	: I don't know the specific
	language that was used, and what was wrong with
	it, because I guess, after I left, they kind of
	made a determination on what was why -. What
	was the reason. I know we were going through
	the process of auditing and fixing some
	cameras. But those specific SHU cameras, I
	wasn't aware of the extent.
	Okay. Let's just really
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	quickly review -
	Mm-hmm.
	-- the SHU camera
	documentation. Were you ever provided any
	documents of a camera that actually was working
	in the SHU?
	You mean, the day of the
	Epstein thing?
	Right, right. At any
	time.
	I don't recall.
	So, were you provided
	with this? This is right outside of --
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	338
	This was a --
	- Ten South.
	- that says camera angle
	out of Ten South.
	Right. Were you ever
	provided with that, as far as --
	It looks --
	-- I think from --
	- it looks familiar, but I
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	don't --
	- from
	- he might have.
	Okay. But you don't
	remember specifically?
	Yeah. I don't specific.
	Okay. And then, just
	while we are here, I guess, what are these
	doors right to the right of this picture?
	This door goes into Ten
	South.
	okay.
	: And then, this one, I think
	is a utility room door. I'm not sure.
	Okay. So, the door that
	says
	"46" goes into Ten South?
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	at down here?
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	here?
	what -.
	339
	That looks like the Ten
	South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone
	is -. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like
	Ten South.
	And what are we looking
	So, this is the, right here
	is the officer's station area.
	And do you - based upon
	that - do you know what tier that would be
	right there?
	Oh, man. You got
	(Indiscernible *03:59:02) stopped. Let me see.
	Is that G and H tier, I think, if I remember.
	And what would be right
	to the right of the officer's station?
	Oh. wait. G. H. I. J.
	A. I don't remember if that was I and J. That
	Would this be I tier up
	Yeah. I and M tier. That's
	So, right up, right to
	the right of the officer's station, looking at
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	this picture -
	Right.
	that where Epstein was housed?
	- would be I. And is
	I believe he was on the L
	tier.
	Okay. Do you mind just
	initialing and dating that?
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	So, here is a map that we
	were previously provided. Does this look like,
	then -? So, this is where we were that this
	camera angle is focusing down here on the
	officer's station. This is I tier.
	Mm-hmm.
	On the second level.
	Mm-hmm.
	And this is where Epstein
	would have been housed.
	Mm-hmm.
	Does that look right?
	That looks right.
	Okay. Is this I tier
	here?
	That's I tier.
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	scene tape.
	been recording?
	341
	Does this look like what
	would have been Epstein's door? I know you
	can't really see because of the police
	crossings --
	Yeah.
	: — on it.
	I noticed it. The crime
	Okay. Do you have any
	reason to believe that that wouldn't be
	Epstein's door?
	What do you mean?
	: As far as, I know we
	can't see the number --
	: Yeah. I don't know the
	number, but I'm taking your word for it, that
	that is.
	okay. Now, if you see,
	this is I tier range. And at the very end, you
	see this camera.
	Mm-hmm.
	Should that camera have
	Yes.
	Okay. And is that a
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	camera that I'm actually looking at right
	there?
	: That is a camera.
	: Was that camera recording?
	: Sir, do you know if the
	camera was recording?
	: I didn't see. After I left,
	I guess they said there were camera issues, but
	I don't know what, I wasn't provided
	information on what specific cameras were
	working or not.
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	So, they didn't tell you
	if they were working or not?
	: Well, remember, I was
	removed.
	: I just didn't know if you
	found out on the 10th or 11th.
	: No. I was removed on the,
	you know, they said there were some camera
	issues, and then, what they were doing, they
	had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and
	I guess they were working to see what was
	working and what wasn't working?
	MR.
	1: Can you initial and date
	that?
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	it. I'm -
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	was received.
	Who's
	343
	I'm not going to get into
	this since he wasn't aware that they weren't
	recording.
	MR. I
	_: Mm-hmm.
	: Boy, I'm impressed by your
	thoroughness, I'll tell you that much.
	That's why they put me on
	Yeah.
	: You're very thorough?
	: -- yes.
	: You know, if you, if you are a
	good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good
	trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not
	supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to
	put an idea in the jury's head, right? Where
	you can see they're invulnerable, stay on that
	fucking idea, because if you are going to be
	thorough, you have to bring out something that
	you don't want to bring out. You know, so you
	to speak to the things, but you know you got
	them.
	Yeah.
	So, this is an email that
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	He's the facilities manager.
	Okay. So, is this what I
	wanted to show you? Hold on. Now, did you
	print out the one that I sent you this morning?
	MR.
	: Is that -. That should be
	the last thing on the -.
	Okay. I'm not going to
	get into those. So, you weren't aware that the
	cameras were not - or you are not aware if the
	cameras were or were not recording --
	:
	We had camera --
	-- in the SHU?
	- no. We had camera issues
	throughout the institution.
	: Okay.
	So, I don't know which
	specific one, because we had Mr.
	working
	on a project, to get some money for it.
	okay.
	: But when it came to that
	specific night, I didn't know if they were
	working or not.
	: Were you ever told that,
	either on August 8th or August 9th, that the
	cameras were not recording in the SHU?
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	afterwards --
	he is found.
	cameras.
	345
	I heard - yes - I was told
	that there were some issues with the cameras --
	: On either the 8th or the
	9th, prior to Epstein?
	-- no. I'm talking about
	Yeah, yeah, no -
	- when it happened.
	-- I'm saying -. So --
	Yeah.
	- August 10th is the day
	Right.
	: On August 9th or August
	8th, even, leading up to Epstein being found,
	were you ever informed that cameras were not
	recording?
	No. I wasn't told about
	All right. So, based on
	our investigation, we learned that MCC, SIS
	Lieutenant Doctor --
	Mm-hmm.
	Mm-hmm.
	-- and that AW
	--
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	: - became aware on August
	8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC
	cameras were not recording. They contacted
	comtech
	notified Captain \|
	and may have also
	• Did you ever
	hear anything about that?
	•: I knew prior that there was
	some cameras in the institution that needed to
	be fixed, but not specifically the SHU, no.
	Okay.
	: Yeah.
	: And would have that been
	based upon what they found? The AW
	and
	SIS Lieutenant Doctor?
	: No. Because we had had some
	issues with cameras, and we were trying to seek
	funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay,
	what was working and what to get fixed. But
	specifically, in SHU, no.
	All right. So, only
	because, you said that you were trying to get
	funded. Did you know that there were already
	cameras at the institution, and that's what
	they were able to replace when the FBI took the
	cameras on the 10th, they were able to
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	immediately replace them with the cameras that
	were onsite?
	: So, cameras all -.
	Institutions always have, like, backup cameras
	to fix what is there. But I was talking about
	funding to replace the whole system.
	So, this was from fiscal
	year 2018 --
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	:
	Right.
	: -- back in September.
	Mm-hmm.
	This is a memorandum for
	you, from a Jeff Colton, acting facilities
	manager.
	Right.
	: And these are all the
	different documents that go with it, regarding
	a new camera system that was purchased.
	: Right.
	It was, it looks like
	there was $800,000.
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	For this total. These
	are all the documents that - here you go - this
	is an approval of your September 11th, 2018
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	request.
	looks like a
	*04:05:31).
	for administration.
	:
	348
	So, this is a memorandum for --
	Right.
	--
	from, it
	_ (Phonetic Sp.
	Mm-hmm.
	: The assistant director
	Mm-hmm.
	It says, request to
	exceed the spending limit of $50,000 on a work
	request number 8158, replace camera system at
	MCC New York. This work request is to replace
	the current degraded camera system. The total
	cost of this work is not to exceed $800,000."
	Mm-hmm.
	Then, at the bottom, it
	says, "If you have any questions, please call
	me or have your staff contact," and how do you
	say that name? Do you know? Ponchiano
	(Phonetic Sp. *04:05:57)?
	Ponchiano.
	Rangle the Third
	(Phonetic Sp. *04:06:00).
	Chief facility
	manager branch."
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	Mm-hmm.
	And it says, "At the
	phone number." And then, here are the, you
	know, the work orders for that. So, we have
	spoken with SigNet, who was the camera provider
	--
	Mm-hmm.
	- they said that on or
	around October or November of 2018, they were
	delivered.
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	Mm-hmm.
	And then, talking with
	the (Indiscernible
	*04:06:22) -
	Mm-hmm.
	- city manager, he said
	that they started working on the infrastructure
	of the camera project on or around March 2019.
	_: Mm-hmm.
	Io get everything ready
	for the new camera system that was onsite to be
	installed, and said that -.
	: They had to run wires. But
	the old system was there.
	So, they had to run
	wires. And they had to get a contract done.
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	: Uh-huh.
	: In order, because you needed
	the contechs, and I forget the wording that
	they used, is to run the cables, to get the new
	camera system in. So.
	: And do you know how long
	that typically takes to run the new wires and
	all that?
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	: You would have to have the
	staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58).
	We didn't
	have the staffing.
	: So, were there two people
	TDY" d, though, in order to do that?
	: They started IDY' ing people
	in, to come in.
	: Wait a minute. Can the staff
	run the new wires, or you have to get an
	electrician to run the wires?
	:
	No.
	We have staff that are
	qualified to do it, but then, some of them were
	new and really didn't know how to do it. So --
	: okay.
	- you know, it was -.
	so, according to Mr.
	it says, "The camera system was
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	scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it
	started on schedule. When I arrived IDY
	February 2019, we only had one communication
	technician --
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	Mm-hmm.
	: - therefore, after
	talking to the regional office, they started a
	project to assist in funding and labor. So, we
	were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019
	for the camera system, and all other
	infrastructure throughout the institution.
	: St. Patrick's Day.
	Mm-hmm.
	Below is the email sent
	to all the institution from
	Bond
	(Phonetic Sp. *04:07:49), the northeast
	regional --
	Right.
	-- facilities
	administrator." But point being, it looks like
	that project had started. Correct?
	: It has started, but —-
	: And I only say that
	because I wanted to make sure you weren't
	confused, because you were saying we were
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	looking for funding.
	: No. No. I misspoke. What
	I'm saying is, I meant that the project
	started, but the cameras hadn't been replaced.
	Because they were still running wires for the,
	to get the new system started.
	: Okay.
	So, that unit still had the
	old cameras.
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	: Right. But then, the
	camera system was actually onsite, and they
	were working on it?
	well, yeah, but they weren't
	- you didn't have enough staff to install, to,
	you know, to rewire the whole place, because we
	had, we wanted to put one, some on the ranges
	that never had cameras.
	: Mm-hmm.
	So, it was a tedious
	project.
	I see.
	That required us to TDY
	staff from other institutions. And then, you
	know -.
	Yeah.
	And were you kept
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	apprise of where they were on that? On the
	camera project.
	: I would acquire about it,
	like, where we were with it. But we were to
	the point where we were bringing people in from
	other institutions. To get it done.
	: Okay. And do you know
	when the camera system was scheduled to
	actually be installed, or was it ever
	scheduled?
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	: From - and if I remember
	right - it was a matter of before you even
	installed it, you had to run the wiring for it.
	Right. And that's what -
	-
	(Indiscernible *04:09:13).
	-- I think was --
	Right.
	- what they were saying
	in March of 2019.
	But that had --
	: That -.
	:
	- been completed. Because
	you had to TDY people there. And to get it
	done.
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	354
	And they never provided
	you with an update as far as, like, when it
	would actually be completed?
	It was
	still ongoing.
	Okay.
	Now --
	(Indiscernible *04:09:27).
	: - but after I left, they
	got people in there and completed it.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Because I
	think, I think that whole week, they were able
	to complete the whole thing. Correct?
	I don't know when.
	You don't know?
	: You know, because they had
	people come in from different institutions.
	Now, is that, did they
	ever, did the facilities manager, Captain
	Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the
	system was, and that it kept on shutting down,
	and stopping, you know, cameras weren't
	recording?
	: I mean, we would have
	incidents where, you know, something would
	happen, and we tried to go back and find the
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	tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break
	down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did
	have issues like that before. But it was the
	age of the cameras. The --
	Yeah.
	: - you know, we had
	infrastructure issues. So.
	Because, yeah, the
	comtech claims that, you know, like, he had
	been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person,
	but like, basically, screaming at the top of
	his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person
	can, we need to fix these things, this is a
	continual problem.
	: So, here is what it is. We
	don't have money readily available at an
	institution to fix it. That money comes from
	what we call buildings and funds.
	: Mm-hmm.
	: Which is funded by Congress.
	So, you would have to talk to somebody in the
	region about what the regional budget is, but
	other institutions have issues going on.
	But being that --
	Yeah.
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	356
	-- we have all these
	cameras already onsite, and they had already
	done the wiring for, you know, at least six
	months prior to this --
	Well, not all the wiring --
	- they -.
	-- was done.
	: Yeah. He just, he didn't say
	the wiring was done.
	Yeah.
	No, no, no. I'm just
	saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a
	feel for what was the plan here, and who was
	responsible.
	:
	Well, the plan was to get
	the manpower to get it installed, but at the
	time, we only had one person. Which was
	Mm-hmm.
	:
	So, one person can't --
	: Well, and the TDY staff.
	- right, but even the TDY
	staff came, they did help. You know, but then,
	we also had other TDY staff that were coming in
	for, because of our staffing issues.
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	357
	: Mm-hmm.
	: But -.
	: Well, that's what
	told us. That the IDY staff that was assigned
	for him sometimes were getting put on the
	custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate
	or not?
	: We might have had to do it a
	time or two because we wanted to staff.
	okay.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	And whose responsibility
	were the cameras? To make sure that those
	things were going to be operational and working
	properly.
	: Well, it's not a matter of
	who was responsible. It's, like, working on
	getting it installed.
	okay.
	: So, there was no deadline as
	far as, you know, okay, when they had to be up.
	You know, they just had to be installed.
	Okay. Because we were
	told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is
	that accurate?
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	358
	No. No. It's not.
	: Yeah. That --
	: It's not.
	: -- that can't be true.
	Captains don't know how to install it.
	Yeah. He doesn't --
	(Indiscernible *04:12:11).
	No, no, no. Not to
	install them. But to make sure that they are
	operational, and get the right people to
	actually get it done.
	:
	Well, I --
	: That can't be right, either.
	_: — well, I --
	: Because how the fuck would you
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	know what
	- right. I--
	: Well, because --
	: - who the right people is.
	-- because what we were
	told is that this was constantly happening,
	whereas the cameras would stop working. And
	then, nothing would be recorded.
	:
	So -.
	The only way you find out
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	that that is happening is to physically check
	the DVR recording to see if there has a light
	on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and
	you are unable to.
	_: Mm-hmm.
	: Because everything is
	still live monitored feed, showing, so you
	can't tell just by looking at the cameras.
	It's only when you try to rewind them, that you
	can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording.
	: Right. But that, it wasn't
	just as simple as that. I mean, there were
	technical aspects of it that you had to check
	to see if the cameras are working or not.
	: Oh. Absolutely.
	Right. And the captain
	basically looking to see if, okay, is the
	screen up? And then, is it recording? But
	there was some instances where the hard drives
	weren't working, and you don't know that until
	you get deep into it, into the system. So, I
	wouldn't, you know -
	MR.
	: That's --
	:
	- put that -.
	MR.
	: - that's what he just
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	360
	: Yeah.
	MR.
	: Like, the fact that the only
	way we would know if the hard drives were not
	working is by going in --
	_: Right.
	MR.
	: - to check the video. And
	the video, there is no videos that they can
	pull back.
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	Right.
	MR.
	: That's when they know the
	hard drives stopped recording.
	: Stopped recording. And
	then, and look at them. But then, this is, you
	know, there was other technical aspects of it
	that, you know -
	: I can't imagine that --
	-- yeah --
	: - the captain would know. I
	sure as hell wouldn't.
	-- right.
	So, I guess, knowing,
	though, that this was, like, a reoccurring
	problem, and the fact that, well, what we
	didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the
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	cameras actually stopped recording all the back
	in July, and for half of the institution.
	Mm-hmm.
	: Who should have made sure
	that that camera system was replaced, and that
	we had an operational camera system in there?
	Well, the centralized area,
	and I don't know where the break down was. So,
	if it's a centralized area, then it would be,
	you know, within our facility department has
	access to --
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	Well, the camera --
	-- the comm --
	- you are asking where
	the cameras are?
	- no, the comm room.
	Yeah. The comm room.
	Where these recorders were, were all in the SIS
	secured area.
	: Right. The actual cameras.
	But where - if you go out - where -? And I
	don't know the word, what's the word? Where
	your centralized main area is for the whole
	system. Yeah. That SIS areas has the cameras.
	But that's fine.
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	Not the control room.
	But it's back around where, it's a locked door
	within the SIS locked room, where the actual
	DVR recording and rack is, and everything.
	Right.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's
	But --
	- is that what you are
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	talking about?
	•: - that, but there is also
	another, should be another area in the
	institution, just for the communications.
	Where everything comes into. So, I don't know
	if it was back there or whatever, but our
	facilities department, you know, their
	communication guys check that, too, if there is
	something intricate with it.
	: Now, so, was either Mr.
	l, or
	1, how do you pronounce his
	name?
	: Was
	, or Captain
	were either of them expressing the need
	to you at all, to, hey, we need to get these
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	things fixed?
	sent up.
	onsite.
	363
	I mean, the request had been
	Yeah, yeah. No.
	So, yeah.
	And these were all
	: Right. So, yeah. IU mean,
	we were going through -
	: And again --
	•: — the process of getting
	the system up and running.
	: But there was no set
	schedule for when it was actually going to be
	completed?
	No. Because we had to TDY
	people. Sometimes we got them in, sometimes we
	couldn't get them. And then, towards the end,
	you know, boil down to money, with getting
	people in to come fix them.
	: And when people are IDY,
	do you - when you say boil down to money - does
	that come out of --
	:
	It comes out of our --
	-- MCC's pocket?
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	know?
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	-- it comes out of our
	budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out
	of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top
	of that, we were for TDY to come to our
	correctional post, because we were so short.
	: All right. So, what
	would you say is the main reason, then, that
	the cameras were onsite, but not installed?
	Lack of manpower and funding?
	: Well, manpower to get it in.
	And then, it kind of boiled down to funding.
	You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done.
	: But do you have money, you can
	really keep the IDY people. You don't have
	money --
	: Yeah.
	: - you can't keep them. You
	But again, there is no,
	there was no actual set schedule of it will be
	operational by the end of this calendar year --
	No.
	: - or anything like that?
	No.
	That wasn't discussed?
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	the question.
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	That wasn't discussed. We
	were trying, you know, doing the best we can
	with the hand we were dealt.
	Okay. And Monday morning
	quarterbacking that. Should it have been
	discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras
	be installed?
	:
	Would -? I don't understand
	Well, being that there
	is, it seems that there was potentially around
	two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no
	cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten
	South.
	Right.
	: That were recording.
	: But that wasn't known --
	: But it was, according to
	the, you know, according to the facilities, as
	well as the comtech, they said it was very well
	known that this continually happened, and that
	the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard
	drives because they kept on crapping out and
	not recording.
	I mean, it is an antiquated
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	system.
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	Right, right, right.
	: So, when you go down, yeah,
	obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew
	until after the fact that you, you know, that
	you had a system that was out for two weeks.
	You know, I mean, you go to any other, any
	institution, the cameras go down.
	Sure, sure.
	And when the system breaks,
	somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as
	far as getting the new system up, we were
	working on it.
	Okay. You want to follow
	up with any of that?
	MR.
	: You mentioned no one knew.
	But the problem was, according to the comtech,
	the system failed, the motherboard had to be
	replaced on the 29th --
	: Mm-hmm.
	: - they had a failure.
	: Right.
	: And then, of course, no one
	checked it until the 8th.
	Mm-hmm.
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	MR.
	: August 8th. When the AW and
	the Lieutenant Doctor went in and they tried to
	--
	Right.
	- review video. Now, being
	that they identified the system wasn't working
	that day -
	MR.
	•: Mm-hmm.
	1: -- how soon should it have
	been fixed?
	: What do you mean? When they
	-?
	MR.
	1: On the 8th.
	: Right.
	MR.
	: This is two days before that
	Epstein was found. If they identified on the
	8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not
	working. It's technically not recording. How
	much of a priority is it to make sure that
	those cameras are up and running immediately?
	: It's a priority. So, what
	happens is, and we have run into this before,
	the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily
	available. So, you have to go somewhere and
	call for the parts, and depending on where it
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	is at, it could be in California, or whatever.
	So, you got to see how long it takes to get
	that part.
	: Yeah.
	Over to repair.
	: And the key part for my
	heating system --
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	Yeah.
	MR.
	: — is in fucking Belarus.
	: Right.
	: My understanding is they, it
	was the hard drive that they needed. Right?
	And the hard drive was sitting with the
	computer services.
	: Yeah. On the 8th. They
	weren't able to get it.
	: I don't know.
	MR.
	1: Yeah.
	: And on the 9th, they got
	it. But then, he claims that he wasn't able to
	gain access to the room because it was an SIS
	shop, and he needed to go until later in the
	day, and they were gone.
	:
	I mean --
	And on the 10th-.
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	369
	- we have an emergency keys
	to get into any area of the institution. So,
	if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS
	office --
	Mm-hmm.
	: - you got the captain, you
	know, we got the techs that work in there.
	We've got their glass is behind - what we call
	in control center - behind a box. You know, we
	can get that box open.
	: So, he said that the only
	way to be able to get into it is if he broke
	the glass --
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	He can break the glass.
	: - mm-hmm. It's okay
	that he would have done that? And then, should
	have he?
	: Yeah. If you couldn't
	reach, you could just -.
	well, he should have
	gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey,
	captain, I need to get into your SIS office.
	: Do you think it's at all
	acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these
	cameras were down, and he didn't actually start
	working on it, or at least, I guess he was
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	working on getting the parts, but then got the
	parts again on the, some time on the 9th,
	claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't
	get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was
	going to work on it on the 10th, on that
	Saturday.
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	So, the question -
	- and what is your -?
	: — the question I would pose
	to you is, did he notify anybody that he
	couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt
	to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey,
	I need to get into that office to get a part to
	do it, because if he had told the captain that,
	the captain would have got that office open for
	him.
	: Yeah. I agree with you.
	It's a he says that the MCC was a different -.
	So, at any other BOP institution, in the
	country, that would have happened with, his
	experience taught him that, at the MCC,
	basically it could wait until tomorrow.
	: They wait until tomorrow.
	: So, that's his opinion. But
	again, I'm going to pose a question. Who did
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	he bring up the issue to? Because my thing is,
	2
	if you know it's an emergency, and it's a
	situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out.
	: And is it, would that be
	classified as an emergency?
	: If the cameras are down,
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	yeah.
	That is an emergency.
	So
	Let's get them back.
	- he should have
	absolutely gotten into that room --
	He should have gotten --
	-- one way or another?
	: - in there, and he knows he
	could have gotten into the room, because you
	can, we can break - if he said that stuff was
	sitting in there, whatever room he said it in
	there, guess what?
	You can break glass.
	You
	can break glass after hours, if you need to,
	and it's an emergency to get in, into an area.
	: So, his claim is that, he
	has rebuilt these things so many times. And
	every knew that these cameras needed to be
	reinstalled, and he had been saying that they
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	needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being
	looked at as the fall guy.
	: You know, it sounds like he
	could, you know -.
	: I don't -. This is not an
	issue of being the fall guy.
	: Right.
	: So, let's take every issue
	we just talked about. We talked about the
	camera project that we were working on.
	: Mm-hmm.
	: We were getting the people
	in there to working. So now, let's talk about
	the specific issue that you were talking about.
	He did not notify anybody to get into that
	room, to get to that part. That part was to
	fix the current system. It had nothing to do
	with the new system coming in. This is, he is
	saying that this was a part that we needed to
	fix, get put in, to deal with the current
	system.
	: Now, what about the fact
	that Lieutenant Doctor is saying both she and
	the AW knew that the cameras were down on
	August 8th. They told
	to fix them. And
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	they also notified Lieutenant Doctor, so that
	she not only notified the captain, but wrote a
	memo and provided it to him about the cameras
	being down on the 8th.
	Right.
	: So, at that point, what
	are the responsibility of the captain and the
	AW?
	: So, what the captain does is
	he notifies facilities where
	works fOr,
	and says, hey, the cameras are broken, you need
	to fix them.
	So, should the captain
	have, on the 9th, ensured that those things
	were fixed?
	: Well, I don't know what
	conversation he had with facilities to say we
	are getting, you know, was it being fixed or
	not.
	: Well, do you know
	(Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell
	somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it
	on the 9th?
	Well, the 9th is a
	Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that
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	of the issue.
	is saying. Yeah.
	374
	he was told, informed, learned.
	Right.
	: So, we have all Friday on
	the 9th to make sure it's done.
	Right.
	: on the 10th,
	unfortunately, is when —-
	But --
	-- we know the severity
	: - but that's my point. You
	knew that, okay, you were made aware that the
	cameras needed to be fixed. Okay. So, your
	answers, what you are saying is, I couldn't get
	into a certain area, so --
	Well, that's what
	- but that, okay, but -
	: But my question is,
	should the AW or the captain have followed up
	with that, to make sure that it was actually
	being done.
	: And to them, I don't, you
	know, I don't want to make the assumption
	because I don't know. There could have been
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	some follow up. I don't want to speak on it,
	2
	but you know, if he had told him something on
	3
	the 8th, you know, I don't know the
	4
	conversations that were taking place between
	5
	them. Like, where is that, and what is he
	6
	saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he
	7
	is saying, and it makes no sense.
	8
	: Yeah. No. I would just
	think that, you know, being a captain or an AW
	would be --
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	:
	Right.
	- whoa. The cameras are
	down in the institution?
	: Right.
	: Well, let's make sure
	that those things are back up --
	:
	So, and --
	- so they would at least
	check back in on the 9th, and say -
	-- and then --
	-- where are we at on
	this thing?
	: — but then, I don't know,
	you know, what that conversation was. I don't
	know if, on the 9th,
	even came to work.
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	said --
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	376
	Right.
	I don't know. He could have
	Well, we do -
	- oh, well, I'm not going -
	- we know.
	But yeah.
	-- huh?
	And we know.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So, I don't know. I don't
	want to speculate on that part.
	Yeah, yeah, no. That's
	what we are trying to tell you. Is, like --
	Right.
	-- we know he was there.
	Right.
	: On the 8th, he couldn't
	get the parts. On the 9th, he got the parts.
	But then, he said, he tried to get into the SIS
	office. He was told by the - it wasn't an SIS
	tech, because there were only two people there.
	It was somebody that -
	MR.
	: Monitored.
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	377
	- monitored the
	telephones. I think he's now retired. Tay?
	:
	Tay. Yeah.
	Was there. And he said,
	I'm getting ready to leave, and he can't come
	in here without me. And then, he said, I
	didn't have access to the room after that. So,
	my plan was to come in on the 10th, the
	Saturday, because I was coming in anyway. And
	that's what I was going to work on.
	: He's the com shop. He can
	go anywhere, where there are computers.
	: So, that is not an
	acceptable answer that he provided?
	: I don't understand that
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	answer.
	: Okay.
	_: It's because that room is
	not in where the SIS shop is. That's the phone
	monitor room. That's the camera room.
	MR.
	1: And the key for the camera
	room is how, I think it's only the SIS
	lieutenant, and the SIA that has the keys for
	it.
	That's what the SIS
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	office said --
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	MR.
	do you mean?
	control center.
	MR.
	378
	So, the --
	: - they said that -.
	- the phone monitor is,
	he's in the SIS, but he draws keys to get into
	that room. So, that room is all -. And you
	can draw keys to get into that room.
	Yeah.
	1: When you saw draw keys, what
	: Well, you get them from
	1: Okay.
	Yeah.
	You know?
	Well, we were told by
	Lieutenant Doctor, the only way he could have
	gotten them is to break the glass, which he
	could have done.
	But -.
	: You could have broken the
	glass. And that time of time it was 8:00. The
	captain is there. The security officer who
	controls all the keys in the institution is
	there.
	Right.
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	hey, I need -
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	You can go to them and say,
	: The key.
	Now --
	-- I need the key.
	: - now, did either the
	captain or the AW inform you of this issue?
	No. I don't -
	So, you didn't know --
	-- I don't --
	- anything about this?
	- recall anything about
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	that issue.
	Should have they?
	So, if --
	If it was a Thursday,
	they found out, and it was all -. You weren't
	there for that.
	I weren't there on Friday.
	okay.
	I wasn't there on Friday.
	You weren't even --
	Yeah.
	-- there on Friday.
	So, you know -.
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	And who - I'm sorry - can
	you remind me, who was acting in your stead on
	Friday?
	:
	I believe it was
	I think.
	okay.
	:
	So.
	MR.
	1: Now -
	okay.
	Yeah.
	So, you weren't even
	there.
	: Yeah.
	MR.
	: Our understanding is, I think
	Captain
	was in the institution, too,
	about 8:00 p.m.
	Mm-hmm.
	On the 9th.
	MR.
	: On the 9th.
	_: Right.
	MR.
	1: So
	--
	On Friday.
	MR.
	: -- could
	have been to
	any time during that period?
	:
	He could have seen him.
	I
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	mean, just, you can't -. If it's an emergency
	to get something for, I don't understand. That
	is not -.
	No. That's great to
	know.
	Yeah.
	About this. So, you say
	that's not acceptable.
	there.
	: No. You can, you can get in
	So, I don't know -.
	: Well, one of the things is, is
	in prison, you need a camera. Yeah.
	: Right. Especially in the
	SHU.
	• Right. Especially in the SHU.
	: Now, who was responsible
	to have the new camera system installed?
	_: What do you mean as far as
	responsible?
	Like, who had overall
	oversight on that?
	The facilities manager.
	Mr.
	Mr.
	Yeah. So, he -
	-
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	382
	All right.
	-- gets the people in there,
	but we're allocating things. But again, I want
	to say, that was, you know, with manpower.
	Okay. Now, you've pretty
	much answered this, and you can say it's the
	same answer, but I just want to read you the
	question. What are your thoughts on the fact
	that the new camera system was there since
	October 2018, but it wasn't installed after the
	Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th,
	2019?
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	It's the manpower.
	Manpower.
	: Yeah. You know, getting
	people, qualified people in there to do it.
	I
	mean, one person couldn't do that. It was, and
	we were putting in new cameras in new areas.
	So, he needed more people. One person couldn't
	do it.
	: Okay. Do you mind just
	initialing? And don't have to go through this,
	just the top is fine. Anything more on the
	camera issue?
	: Oh, Christ. You got more
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	issues?
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	up?
	383
	No. I think the -. We
	have one more issue, and then just a couple of
	questions based upon the BOP's findings. It
	does say that there's leaks information. Where
	are those emails?
	MR.
	1: It was in -. Did we mix that
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	Here it is. So, here is
	two emails that were sent both from
	One to you, and one to
	Sp. *04:29:13).
	(Phonetic
	Yeah. He was the acting
	director at the time.
	: Director of the BOP?
	Yeah.
	Okay. So, the first one
	was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. to you.
	And the subject is, "Urgent request. Potential
	leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death."
	Mm-hmm.
	It looks like --
	¡ You mean —
	-- where is the --
	: -- media leak?
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	384
	- yeah. It says,
	"Please ensure this information is given to the
	OIG FBI. Thanks."
	Mm-hmm.
	And then, this next one,
	like you said, is from Ormand to the director.
	Subject, "Prison guards skip mandatory checks
	before Epstein's death." This, the body says,
	"Couldn't see the entire article on my phone,
	but I wouldn't be surprised there are staff
	that are paid contacts for local media outlets.
	This has also been discussed at the department
	level, all the way to the White House. And who
	knows who may have overheard those
	discussions."
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	: Do you know anything
	about leaks in the media from the MCC?
	So, what happened was, when
	(Phonetic Sp. *04:30:17) came to see me,
	the issue we had was - and I told him about it
	- was there was a article in the Post that took
	a picture of our staff, and our staff rode with
	Epstein on it. So, I told
	about it, and
	I guess they said one of the paramedics had
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	leaked the information.
	them, like -
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	Like, took a picture of
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	Took a picture -
	: - posing with him?
	: - took a picture of them
	coming in the room, when they got to the
	emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein
	being rolled in. And our - what do you call
	it? - and our staff. So, I talked to
	about that, and then, I had also told him that,
	you know, there might be some staff, you know,
	because, and I didn't know where it was coming
	from, because the information was just coming
	out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like,
	where is this, you know, coming from? So, I
	called and made him aware, you know, told him
	about it when he came on Sunday. But the main
	one was because of the picture in the Post.
	Now, who is it that you
	suspect would have been leaking information to
	him?
	: I couldn't, I couldn't even
	tell. But I just was, you know, with this
	whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had
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	been leaked out to the media, and you are,
	like, where is this coming from?
	: Do you have any
	suspicions, though?
	I can't speculate. I mean -
	-
	: That's my boy. I mean, I
	don't know nothing.
	: (Indiscernible *04:31:48).
	You're talking like an
	attorney.
	:
	No, I mean --
	: But like that, I don't know
	nothing, but what I do know, I don't know.
	: I mean, I can't speculate.
	I mean,
	the half of it was towards me. I mean,
	sO - .
	Did you leak the
	information, you mean?
	: No. I said it was towards
	me.
	oh, you mean the
	information --
	Like, the negative press -
	- and the negative to
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	you?
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	to me.
	know --
	387
	- yeah. It reverted back
	Uh-huh.
	So, I mean, that's, you
	know, and it was just, it was fast and furious.
	So, like, negative things
	to people, you believe someone in the BOP was
	leaking negative information about you?
	I don't -. I mean, I, you
	Can you give me, like, an
	example
	: of what was leaked about you?
	:
	Well, I mean, you know,
	stuff that happened, you know --
	: Listen, the --
	: -- and I'm not saying --
	: -- (Indiscernible *04:32:26)
	investigation was going on.
	- specifically -
	: I mean, you know --
	-- specifically --
	: -- whose fault is it?
	-- right. Towards me. But
	it was just automatically the blame was, you
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	know, put on me.
	Mm-hmm.
	And then, you know, the
	other part of it was, I don't know if it came
	from the department. I don't know if it came
	from the institution.
	Okay.
	Because all that information
	was going, you know --
	: But did anybody --
	-- up on different levels.
	- did anyone tell you
	that they believed that a certain person was
	leaking information?
	No. I didn't hear if it was
	a certain person.
	I didn't, you know?
	: Okay. And did you leak
	any information to the media?
	: Absolutely not.
	Okay. Do you mind just
	initialing and dating that? Do you believe,
	though, somebody in the BOP was leaking
	information?
	And I'm not --
	And I don't mean that
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	personally. I just mean --
	- no. But --
	- you know, you could
	always get --
	- I don't --
	-- the second one under
	there.
	-- it could have been up to
	the department, because the information was
	going up to them.
	I mean
	--
	But I just mean, like,
	based upon what information was being leaked,
	do you believe that someone in the BOP - not
	necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was
	leaking the information?
	I will put it this way. The
	Department of Justice might --
	: Yeah.
	-- because all the
	information --
	Because it could be --
	-- was -.
	Yeah.
	-- OIG. FBI.
	MR.
	:
	Initial.
	Anybody.
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	390
	It could have been anybody.
	So, I don't want to --
	Gotcha.
	- kind of put it --
	Sure.
	-- on one person.
	All right. The last
	actual topic, before we ask a couple about the,
	a couple about the findings. Epstein's will.
	Mm-hmm.
	Do you know anything
	about Epstein changing his will just prior to
	his death?
	:
	MO.
	: Had you ever heard that?
	After the fact.
	: Right. And when you say
	after the fact, how did you learn about it
	after the fact?
	: I don't know.
	Reading it.
	Or hearing it on the news.
	it in an official capacity?
	:
	No.
	: Did you ever hear about
	All right. Do you know
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	if it's true?
	brother. Right?
	391
	Don't know.
	okay.
	: He left this all to his
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	: I --
	: Is that true?
	-- I can't comment on
	that kind of stuff. But what actions should
	have been taken, or you don't know if it was.
	If it was learned that Epstein's will had been
	changed just prior to his death, do you believe
	any specific actions should have been taken?
	: I don't know anything. I
	mean, I can't comment on that.
	Okay. So, that's the
	last of the topics. Now, we have -
	(Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don't
	think we have to refer to anything other than
	the - where is that?
	MR.
	1: The after action?
	: Yeah. Do you have it?
	And I don't know what we actually need to cite
	(Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This
	is the after action report. Is that -? That
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	the BOP created in response.
	So, just a few
	quick questions on it. It says, "On August
	Ist, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented
	they were notified by correctional systems of a
	form received from the United States Marshal
	Service, the previous day, stating inmate
	Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies."
	Mm-hmm.
	Do you know anything
	about that, and what transpired?
	Wait. Read that again.
	So, "On August." So,
	just to refresh your memory of a time,
	timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of
	psychological --
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	Psychological observation.
	-- observation.
	Right.
	And goes to the SHU.
	"Iwo days later" - so, there's July 31st and
	August Ist - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented
	they were notified by correctional systems of a
	form received from the United States Marshal
	Service, the previous day." So, I guess on
	July 30th.
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	393
	Mm-hmm.
	The 31st, I mean.
	"Stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal
	tendencies." This was the BOP's finding. Do
	you know anything about that?
	: I don't know anything about
	that. And that's before, when he first came in
	the system, or -?
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	No. That was after he
	came off of psychological observation. So,
	after his actual first attempt at suicide.
	Right.
	Or potential harm from
	Tartaglione.
	No. I didn't.
	You don't know anything
	about that?
	Nuh-uh.
	Okay. And do you know
	anything about the suicidal tendencies that he
	was showing?
	:
	No.
	No. All right. And
	then, on the same date, August Ist, 2019,
	again, this is after the Tartaglione incident.
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	394
	Mm-hmm.
	And after coming off of
	psychological observation. "1:00 p.m.
	Psychology conducts a suicide risk assessment
	noting watch is not indicated, with a
	recommendation for follow up in one week. The
	delay in conducting this assessment is not
	justified in the report." Did you learn
	anything about that?
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	No. I don't.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I --
	And again -
	-- it's psychological.
	-- this is just some of
	the --
	: Yeah.
	- the negative findings.
	okay.
	We just want to know your
	take on it. I don't expect you to know any,
	all of this, or anything.
	:
	Right.
	It's just asking because
	there's some negative findings. Okay. The
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	next one. It says, "Significant --
	: Don't bring this guy in on
	another case. All right? If the next time
	this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring
	this guy, don't fucking do it.
	: It says, "Significant
	discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding
	admission/release status, ARS."
	:
	Right.
	Sentry does not reflect
	inmate Epstein being escorted from the
	institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July
	31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand
	form is on file, documenting -
	Mm-hmm.
	: - having received him
	from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional
	review revealed inmate Epstein departed the
	institution for a total of four court
	appearances, and only one of these occasions
	was an ARS change made within Sentry. It
	appears there is a culture of foregoing this
	vital function, due to the likelihood of the
	inmate returning from court. This lapse in
	procedure is a severe inmate accountability
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	deficiency."
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	: Well, that statement is
	incorrect. I know the regional office looked
	into it and said that a pre-trial institution
	can outcount an inmate to go into court. So,
	he doesn't have to be keyed out on the ARS.
	: okay.
	: So, the way they were doing
	it, they looked at it after the fact, and said
	there was nothing wrong with that.
	So, they did re-review
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	this matter, and -
	Yes.
	-- said that there was --
	They were fine --
	- they were doing it --
	-- with it.
	okay.
	:
	Yeah. Because they kept
	thinking, when they were looking out, same
	thing like you said, he was going out to court,
	but they can outcount him in that area.
	: All right. And what are
	they talking about, like, pre-removing him or
	something like that, when he goes to court?
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	No. Going to court.
	: Yeah, yeah.
	: And if anyone is going to
	court, because you have so much court movement
	that you can outcount them. And then, when the
	Marshals say, hey, he's not going out, then you
	release him out of --
	MR.
	1: So, this is —
	Okay.
	MR.
	: - this means, on the E1, he
	would be listed on the outcount?
	MR.
	MR.
	_: As court.
	1: As court.
	: Yeah.
	1: Okay•
	And that's what they were
	actually doing?
	That's what they were doing.
	okay.
	They had him on the E1.
	So
	--
	Yeah.
	- so, this is no longer
	--
	That's not --
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	398
	-- an issue.
	-- an issue.
	: All right. The next one,
	it says, "No notations concerning a requirement
	for a cellmate were entered into the SHU
	program, and subsequently available for SHU
	officers to reference." Who would have been
	responsible for noting that in the SHU program?
	so -.
	First of all, what is the
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	SHU program?
	The SHU program is -
	: Is that the 292?
	- with the 292s. So, I
	don't know, from what I understand, and was
	told after the fact, that they couldn't find
	the information on Epstein in the SHU program.
	So, I don't know how you came to that
	conclusion.
	: By the way, let the record
	indicate that he is not sweating under his
	armpits.
	A good sign.
	We didn't. BOP came to
	these conclusions.
	:
	Right. So, I don't know
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	where that conclusion came from because from
	2
	what I gather, they couldn't get - they
	3
	couldn't find the -. Because usually --
	4
	Well, they found the
	5
	292s, but they were just very limited.
	6
	: Right. The 292s usually had
	7
	to have everything indicated on it. So -.
	8
	And on that note, we were
	told the 292, his file, was extremely small,
	and it should have been larger. Had you heard
	anything about people removing documents from
	files?
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	: From what I understand, and
	was told, that there was no file. They
	couldn't -. They had every other inmates file,
	but not his.
	: They couldn't even find
	it. You didn't think they could find his file
	at all?
	: No. That's what was told to
	me.
	: And who told you that?
	: I think I heard that after
	the fact. I don't know if the regional
	director told me after they came in and did the
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	check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't
	know.
	: That's after they found out
	the Hilary Clinton --
	: Yeah.
	: -- came down and had them
	(Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain
	(Indiscernible *04:40:45).
	_: Right.
	But back to the original
	question, whether it was there or not.
	: Right.
	: If it, the cellmate
	requirement was not entered in the SHU program,
	who should have made sure that it was?
	: On the, in the 292? And I
	don't know who was doing it. It should have
	been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it's all
	in there.
	So, the SHU lieutenant?
	When they - yeah - when they
	deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain
	conveyed the information to him, that should
	have been put on the 292.
	So, either --
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	the OIC.
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	401
	By the lieutenant.
	- the SHU lieutenant or
	Yeah.
	Now, when you say the
	OIC, does one OIC of one shift take more
	responsibility than another?
	: No. They are all on the
	same shift. So, it would depend on --
	So, like, for instance,
	was the OIC on the day watch, but -
	Mm-hmm.
	: -- I think
	was the
	OIC on the night watch.
	Right.
	: So, would one of them had
	more of a responsibility to do this than
	another?
	_:
	No. But that should have
	been done on the initial, when the directive
	was put out.
	So, from Doctor, or Ms.
	Imeri saying that here's coming off of
	psychological observation, he needs to be
	housed with a cellmate --
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	402
	Right. That would have been
	- on July 30th.
	- put out, and then, when -
	so, who, at that time,
	should have noted that in his file?
	: Well, you would probably
	have to find out from the captain who he
	directed to --
	wel1, the captain -
	- to doing that.
	-- according to his, you
	know, his memo that he sent to you -
	Mm-hmm.
	- it says that he
	specifically had these conversations on
	multiple occasions, with -
	_: The SHU --
	-- Lieutenant
	- right. So, it would have
	been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one he had.
	If
	was the one, then
	would have been
	the one.
	But --
	Okay. "August 9th, 2019.
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	8:00 a.m. Inmate Reyes, the cellmate, departs
	for court."
	:
	Right.
	: Again, this claims court,
	but if they are seeing WAB. Actually, you know
	what? I heard WAB was specific to MCC. Is
	that correct?
	: Other institutions will tell
	you pack up your inmates with all belongings.
	That's, you know -
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	Because even --
	-- what it is.
	- on their findings,
	they are showing that he departed for court.
	Yeah.
	Although, all the
	documentation we showed says WAB.
	:
	WAB.
	And transferred.
	Yeah. And it says -
	: So, even on here, they
	are getting this wrong?
	: And that's what the whole
	confusion is, is the assumption that he was
	going to court
	--
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	404
	Because then it says --
	- when you look at the
	-- so --
	-- go ahead.
	: - yeah, and then, it
	says, "Inmate Reyes does not return to the
	institution."
	Right.
	So, and this was when a
	lot of things, when we were first starting this
	investigation, we heard was court, court,
	didn't return from court.
	Right.
	: And then, when we
	actually looked through the record, we were,
	like --
	Right.
	-- court. It's -.
	I think people thought,
	without looking at the documentation, that he
	went to court and got released from court.
	okay.
	So.
	So then, I'm just going
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	to read the question. If the documents list
	Reyes as being WAB, and if they had the
	transfer list, why did they say he went to
	court and did not return?
	I can't answer that.
	: Okay. "7:00 p.m.
	Epstein was provided a social call by the
	institutional duty officer." Does that mean
	405
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	Yeah. He was the duty
	officer at that time, I believe.
	And what does the
	institutional duty officer mean?
	: So, what the duty officer
	is, is after hours, they walk around and, you
	know, report emergencies, you know -.
	: Is that, like, the
	highest ranking official there?
	: That comes on at night. You
	know, there with the lieutenants. But they
	just make sure that if we had any issues, you
	know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like
	that.
	: So, they are kind of,
	like, the, basically the OIC for the
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	institution?
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	: Kind of. I wouldn't say the
	OIC, but you know, senior staff around.
	: Okay. "This call was
	done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely
	concerning why this call would have been
	placed, and why it would be done on an
	unmonitored line. Without further interviews,
	it is not possible to determine the reason for
	this call." Just, why does it say, "extremely
	concerning"?
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	: I don't know. Both are
	report -
	But I mean, do you also
	find it extremely concerning? Would you
	classify it as extremely concerning?
	: I mean, it would be -. I
	mean, that the choice of words that they use.
	So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use
	the word extremely concerning. But I would
	think, I would --
	It's certainly wrong.
	-- it would be --
	But -.
	-- it was an issue. But
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	extremely concerning.
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	407
	Okay. "On August 9th,
	2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU
	number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer
	briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the
	other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers,
	with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be
	returning, and inmate Epstein would require a
	cellmate upon return from an attorney visit.
	Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate
	upon his return to SHU." My question to you
	is, just, how did they know this information?
	How would they have obtained that information?
	Do you know?
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	: I don't know. Like I said,
	I don't know who they spoke to during this
	after action.
	: Were they doing
	interviews, though?
	I wasn't there.
	okay.
	Yeah.
	Were they authorized,
	though, if OIG and FBI are doing an
	investigation, is the after action team
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	authorized to come in and interview people?
	So, I've done after actions.
	And there is a point where you come to it,
	where you, if it's an OIG of FBI investigation,
	that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain
	people because it might impede an
	investigation. Like, if you are going to look
	at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you
	can't because most of the time, it's been
	taken. So, I don't know -.
	So, possibly from that
	memo, though, that was created? If they are
	not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm
	assuming they are not really supposed to be
	doing interviews.
	•: I mean, I don't know who
	authorized them to come in and do the
	investigation. I don't know. It was, you
	know, who set the parameters on it.
	I can't
	speak on that.
	: And is it a normal for
	them to do something like this, when there is
	an actual FBI and OIG investigation?
	: We do after actions. So, I
	don't know -.
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	409
	But I mean, do they do
	after actions typically, when there is an open,
	criminal investigation, though?
	:
	Not typically.
	No?
	: So, I don't know. And
	again, I don't want to speculate. I don't know
	who authorized it. I don't know if they got
	permission from the department to come down and
	do it. I don't want to -.
	Sure. "August 10th,
	2019."
	So, this is the day of.
	Mm-hmm.
	"6:33 a.m. A body alarm
	is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU
	staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in
	cell Z06-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this
	accurately. Staff entered the cell and
	attempted to wake Epstein. Control center
	announced a medical emergency, and
	cardiopulmonary resuscitation," or CPR, "was
	initiated." So, the question here is, I guess
	I'll start with. Well, the information that we
	have is
	and
	were there.
	immediately went into the cell.
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	Mm-hmm.
	Upon finding Epstein.
	Mm-hmm.
	: Was it appropriate for
	him to immediately go into the cell? Or should
	have he waited for staff to arrive on site?
	1: You should be --
	What?
	:
	-- you're trained --
	: To go into the cell, I would
	think.
	:
	- no, you wait for enough
	staff to get there, and a lieutenant, before
	you open that door.
	: Is that right?
	:Mm-hmm.
	: In other words, suppose the
	fucking guy is in seizure.
	:
	Well, the flip side of it
	is, he could be trying -
	Remember --
	- he could be feigning it.
	- we're in a prison.
	Yeah. He could be feigning
	the suicide, and then come on and attack you.
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	And guess what? You're the only person there.
	Now, he has the keys for every range door on
	that door.
	: Okay.
	And you can lose --
	: Mm-hmm.
	- you can lose the unit.
	: Okay.
	okay.
	So --
	: Yeah. Okay. I made a
	mistake.
	-- that wasn't --
	That's the first time --
	So, he did not.
	: - you make a notation,
	(Indiscernible *04:48:23).
	So, he didn't
	appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48:25)?
	:
	Yeah. He didn't
	appropriately.
	And should have he known
	that from his training experience?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	"7:36 a.m., inmate
	Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room
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	physician. And we've already addressed this.
	2
	My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he
	3
	show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty.
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	Mm-hmm.
	"On August 10th, 2019,
	the two assigned morning watch SHU officers
	failed to make their designated rounds, or
	count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33
	a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive
	in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his
	neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate
	a call for assistance. The medical response to
	the incident was timely, efficient, and
	exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as
	a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS
	personnel." Are you aware of how - what
	information they obtained to say that the SHU
	officers failed to make their designated rounds
	or counts?
	I don't know.
	: No? And I just say this
	because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot
	of this information was provided from you to
	Ray, and Ray was providing it to whomever, that
	were --
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	though.
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	was.
	413
	Right.
	- was doing this,
	Right.
	So, I was assuming, in
	drafting these questions, that a lot of this
	information came from you.
	But I wasn't here when this
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I
	think a lot of this stuff, though, was
	provided, you know --
	Right.
	- during the email
	review, those first couple of days.
	okay.
	So, that's why I'm asking
	these questions, is, like, do you know where
	this information came from?
	No, I don't.
	: No?
	Hmm-mm.
	Okay.
	"Institution duty
	officers do not routinely visit SHU each day,
	as required by the institution supplement.
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	Additionally, the IDO reports consistently
	document the condition of SHU as satisfactory,
	when observations have shown the SHU to be less
	than satisfactory." Do you have any comment on
	that? Do you agree with that assessment?
	: Oh, I don't know what day
	they went in there. Again, when these
	observations were done, I wasn't the warden in
	the institution.
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	Okay. But prior to, when
	you were the warden, do you know about the
	institution duty officers not routinely
	visiting the SHU each day as required?
	: No. I didn't know about
	that.
	You didn't know about
	that.
	: I didn't. I ensured
	sanitation. You know? I made sure they made,
	made sure the areas were clean. So.
	: Okay. And what was their
	ultimate responsibility when they would visit
	the SHU?
	: I guess same thing, to make
	rounds in the unit. Check on the inmates.
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	Make sure there are no issues.
	: And is that, like you
	said, the idea was the guy that's on at night?
	That's the duty officer.
	The institution duty officer.
	: Always at night, though?
	They use - they typically
	work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 12:00 to 9:00.
	They cover the evening shift.
	Because I thought it was
	explained to me, it was kind of, like, the
	person in charge when you are not here.
	:
	Well, yeah. But then, the
	other flip side of it go to the other shifts,
	you know, the operations lieutenant is the CEO
	in the absence of a warden.
	So --
	okay.
	• : — the duty officer is just
	the bridge to the executive staff.
	: But they were actually
	supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds
	every day?
	: And then, again, I don't
	know if they were or were not. I don't know
	what they were, you know, what he was looking
	415
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	at.
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	416
	Now, why would, was
	a reoccurring --
	:
	What?
	Was he a reoccurring -?
	7: No. The duty officers.
	Like, sometimes, you can get it twice a year.
	on, okay.
	So, I don't -.
	But is it, like, a
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	quarterly -
	well, remember --
	- submitted post type of
	thing?
	:
	- remember, he is also, he
	is the duty officer, but he is also his unit
	manager.
	: But was he --
	So -.
	- the consistent duty
	officer?
	: No, no, no, no.
	They
	rotate.
	Every day?
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	MR.
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	417
	No. Every week.
	Every week.
	Yeah. You have other ones,
	every week.
	So - .
	MR.
	unit managers?
	: So, it goes between other
	Other unit managers. Other
	department heads. So, it kind of goes, you
	know?
	What is the grade -
	1: And do they -.
	-- level requirement?
	The department heads. It's
	usually 12 or higher.
	: 12 or higher.
	And some, like, maybe some
	GS-11s. Our trust fund supervisors.
	: What grade level are you?
	Huh?
	: What level are you?
	SES.
	Which means?
	It's like a general.
	No. A staff.
	No.
	It's what it's
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	equivalent to.
	MR.
	1: Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	So, if you're looking at
	the military equivalent -
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	: Hey, man.
	-- it would be --
	: I can't be too --
	-- the general.
	: -- cheap.
	: No. No. No. I can't
	afford that.
	I got kids.
	: Well, fuck. Why didn't --
	: Yeah.
	: — why didn't somebody tell me
	that before?
	No, no, no. I got --
	: (Indiscernible *04:52:52).
	: - yeah.
	: Yeah.
	So, the highest level you
	can go to in the GS level is 15. And that is
	basically a full (Indiscernible *04:53:00)
	colonel in the military. SES is the general
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	level. So, don't -. He's being modest.
	:
	No. Yeah.
	: I always liked him anyway.
	I did not know. I
	thought, I assumed you were 15 since your AWs
	are 14s, though.
	: No. But certain
	institutions, you are SESs.
	And MCC was one of those
	419
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	institutions?
	: MCC is one. Your pre-trials
	are 15s. Your penitentiaries. Your big lows.
	Like, Fort Dix. Certain mediums.
	And have you maintained?
	Are you still an SES now?
	: Yes.
	Okay. Since this time,
	have you ever been demoted or anything like
	that?
	No.
	No.
	: You know, man, I really --
	: No. Just got --
	: -- I really got (Indiscernible
	*04:53:45) for this guy.
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	employee.
	of money.
	420
	-- no.
	(Indiscernible *04:53:45) .
	You know how, I always give law enforcement
	guys a big, you know, a discount. But I
	didn't, he's fuck - he's a fucking
	(Indiscernible *04:53:52) --
	I'm (Indiscernible
	*04:53:52) a discount.
	: — (Indiscernible *04:53:54)
	couldn't afford him to pay.
	Remember, I'm a federal
	Federal boys. It doesn't
	matter if you're a general or not.
	We don't make any money.
	You're not making a lot
	: Yeah.
	: But -.
	Remember, I think the
	president makes, what?
	Yeah.
	400.
	250, and he's the -
	- 400.
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	two something.
	-.
	about that?
	that.
	psychology
	issue?
	421
	Yeah.
	Is it 400 now?
	And the Vice President makes
	Yeah, yeah. No. That's
	:
	And never disciplined. When
	I was moved, never given a reason why I was
	moved. I was just moved.
	Okay. So, is the report
	also says that, "Psychology intake screening of
	Epstein contained errors in identifying
	details, including that Epstein was referred to
	as a black inmate, and by different inmate
	names."
	: Oh, no. You're kidding me.
	They said he was black? Hell, that was a
	mistake.
	Do you know anything
	_: I don't know anything about
	: Would that be a
	: That is a psychology,
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	422
	whoever was doing that review.
	: All right. "SHU has
	multiple cells equipped with video recording
	capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in
	one of these cells. And there appears to be no
	set guidance on when to utilize these cells."
	So, you already said you didn't believe, like,
	he should have been.
	:
	So --
	Is that correct?
	-- let me correct that.
	None of the cells, none of the cells that we
	had in SHU had cameras in the cells that were
	being, working and being used. The only ones
	up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is Ten
	South.
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	Okay. So, no --
	So, they --
	- where else in the
	institution --
	_ :
	-- nowhere else in there had
	cameras in the cell.
	: Hmm.
	: Ten South, we have it in the
	cells where you can see --
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	MR. I
	1: That --
	How about, like, Nine
	South lower, or something like that? Would
	they?
	Isn't that, like, the mini Ien South?
	That's the - yeah - that's
	the --
	423
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	Or G tier.
	-- G tier.
	That's not --
	Right.
	- what this is.
	So, that --
	: Did they have cameras?
	-- that did have recording
	cameras in --
	Just live cameras?
	-- in South, yeah. Just -.
	Nope. But then, we had no cameras on there
	that had live cameras in the South.
	Okay. So, only -
	Ten South.
	-- Ten South.
	:
	Only Ten South.
	MR.
	1: So --
	so -.
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	MR.
	-- this statement might
	actually associate Ten South as part of the
	SHU.
	Right. Because a lot of
	people that come in, when they first come in,
	Ten South is part of there, actually part of
	Nine South. We call it -. It's part of an
	annex. So, when most people come in, and they
	have never been there, they don't
	differentiate.
	So, being that these are
	BOP individuals that did this report, what is
	your response to them saying that there appears
	to be set guidance on when to utilize these
	cells? If they are referring to Ten South.
	Was there guidance on that?
	: Yeah. Ien South, like I
	said, was specifically for the SAMs inmates.
	:
	: So, do you --
	Yeah.
	-- also believe that that
	is an incorrect statement, then?
	: If that's what they are
	referring to, I do believe it is.
	And you believe there was
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	no other working cameras, outside of Ten South?
	Ten South is --
	For a single cell.
	-- is the one where we had
	our cameras.
	okay.
	MR.
	Okay.
	Because we had also been
	informed that there were cells outside of Ten
	South that had cameras in them, specifically I
	think G tier. That's inaccurate?
	_: G tier. There is no
	recording of inmates in those cells.
	Just live?
	: And I don't even believe
	live. I know the only ones we had was Ten
	South.
	okay.
	MR.
	: We also heard that Ten South
	wasn't supped to be utilized anymore. It was
	actually supposed to be phased out.
	: It was supposed to be what?
	MR.
	: Phased out.
	What do you mean phased out?
	MR.
	: He was actually brought up,
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	brought out during the time, after 9/11, to
	house terrorists inmates.
	:Mm-hmm.
	MR.
	: Have you ever heard anything
	about the fact that no one was supposed to be
	housed up there anymore (Indiscernible
	*04:57:12)?
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	: No. It's not -. It's not
	to house terrorists' inmates. It's to house
	inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly,
	the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them
	are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an
	inmate housed for espionage. You know? And
	then -
	MR.
	1: Was it supposed to have been
	phased out due to PREA concerns?
	: I didn't -. I don't know
	anything about that.
	MR.
	: okay.
	No.
	: Okay.
	The next one is,
	the report also shows that, "A review was done
	regarding the overtime conducted by the C.O.s
	at the MCC, and the shortage of staff." It
	doesn't say much about it. Do you know what
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	the overall team's finding was? Do you agree
	that there was a shortage of staff?
	Yeah, there was. I mean --
	Mm-hmm.
	- I'll give you an example.
	We were short staffed. I was relieving
	officers on their posts, and on some weekends,
	I would come in and work a post. I mean --
	You, as the warden?
	-- as the warden. I mean,
	we had -. We were short. I mean -.
	Now, is there a -. Was
	there a way to rectify that issue?
	We could. I mean, hiring.
	We had, I mean, 40 or 50 staff on OWCP
	(Phonetic Sp. *04:58:23).
	And can you explain what
	that is?
	Workers compensation.
	Oh. And what was the
	percentage
	there, you said?
	About 40 or 50 staff on it.
	40 or 50 staff.
	Yeah. On there -.
	Did they seem to abuse
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	that?
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	: We all knew it was an abuse.
	I mean, we -. We had even had conversations
	with the IG about, you know, you're going to
	the same doctor. But I mean, I understand.
	So
	--
	So --
	- every -.
	: — they were all using the
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	same doctor?
	The same doctor. But again,
	I understand, every agency is short.
	Mm-hmm.
	I mean, so, we just had that
	:
	constant problem.
	: That's, like --
	: You know?
	: - they use some of these -.
	Some things, they use the same expert witnesses
	all the time.
	: Right. The hiring. We had
	a lot of department heads that we would use to
	cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know,
	would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to
	make do with what we had.
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	Now, was there, like, a
	plan in place to try to get you guys up to
	proper staffing levels?
	: I mean, we were working on
	hiring. You know, and getting people in. But
	it's a process. You know? Io get somebody
	hired, it takes between six and eight months.
	And were there a number
	of people in the pipeline?
	Not really. I mean, we went
	out and did recruiting, because we were
	competing with other agencies.
	Mm-hmm.
	: You know? Other agencies
	are hiring, you know, and we had incentives.
	You know? Io get people on. So, it was just a
	matter of, you know, getting people on board.
	: And do you think it could
	have been handled better by some, in some way,
	by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue?
	There's certain things we
	don't control. Staffing. You know, the
	budget. We don't -. I don't -.
	We don't
	control that. I mean, we can turn around and
	say, I want this, but once the law is passed,
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	and it said, this is what you are getting, you
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	don't -. We need to work with what we've got.
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	: No, and I understand
	4
	that, that as, like, as
	far as the BOP goes.
	5
	But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know,
	6
	covering Epstein in a lie *05:00:18), and
	7
	having such high-profile inmates. Was there -
	8
	do you think that there could have been
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	anything done better, though, by the BOP, to
	make sure that your institution, specifically
	MCC, was better staffed?
	_: You could - so, let's go TDY
	- we couldn't really, couldn't IDY to a point,
	but then, there are other institutions around
	the agency that were, you know, the staffing
	was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out
	to help, you know? And then, it just brought
	down the finding. I mean, and getting people
	to clear your background. Not everybody can
	clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we
	can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a
	job for you, but can you pass the guidelines?
	Mm-hmm.
	And a lot of time, do we
	know.
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	431
	All right. So, we're
	literally less than half of a page left.
	Mm-hmm.
	: But this next one is just
	going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of
	read it --
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	okay.
	-- along with me because
	it's so long. "He was also an inmate who had
	risk factors for assault by other inmates, and
	did require careful selection for appropriate
	cellmates. Although these issues were noted,
	well documented, and communicated, a failure
	still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be
	placed in the cell alone.
	Although feasible
	for an inmate to effectuate suicide while
	housed with a cellmate, the odds of this
	occurring are significantly lowered when housed
	with another inmate."
	The report continues. "It is apparent
	various staff at the institution made a point
	of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned
	cellmate. The captain personally instructed
	the lieutenants, individually. A mass email
	was distributed by psychology, and it is
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	apparent some SHU officers were aware.
	2
	Although many people acknowledge this is an
	3
	important fact, ultimately, the final staff
	4
	responsible for not - or did not ensure the
	5
	requirement was met, including vital
	6
	directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and
	7
	a mass email does not ensure -." (Indiscernible
	8
	*05:02:20) --
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	Mm-hmm.
	- including vital
	directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and
	a mass email does not ensure those who truly
	need that information do, in fact, receive it
	timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was
	actually placed with a cellmate when removed
	from psychological -
	Mm-hmm.
	-- observation. After
	that moment, it is clear there was no
	additional written directive, or a fail safe
	system established, to ensure inmate Epstein --
	:
	Mm-hmm.
	- would have had a
	cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first
	and foremost, do you believe, probably the
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	primary reason why Epstein was able to take his
	own life was because he didn't have a cellmate?
	On top of the fact that they weren't conducting
	rounds in SHU? And counts.
	: I can't speak to the
	mindset. Only I can speak to is, he killed
	himself.
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	But what I'm asking is,
	would it have certainly helped prevent his
	death by one) having an inmate; and two having
	rounds and counts conducted?
	Oh, if people did their job.
	: Right.
	You know? And -.
	: Like, obviously, if he
	killed himself, he did it.
	Right.
	: But the way that the
	government can better ensure that that doesn't
	happen is by ensuring that, when it is mandated
	that someone has a cellmate, they have a
	cellmate.
	_: Right.
	: And when they do their
	job, like you just said, they conduct rounds
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	and counts, that -. Is that what you believe
	would have helped keep him alive today, if, you
	know, from the government perspective?
	I mean, again, I'm going to
	just say, I can't say what would have kept him
	alive, but I will say, you know, if people made
	their rounds, did their job, followed
	instructions that they were given, then it
	might have -. Could have minimized what, you
	know --
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	: The risk.
	: - you know, what happened.
	The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he
	would have done it or not done it. If that
	would have stopped him.
	: Now, as far as this last
	sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment,
	it is clear there was no additional written
	directive, or fail safe system established to
	ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate
	going forward." What do you think could have
	been done, and who should have done it?
	: So, directives and the
	information was conveyed to people verbally,
	documented on forms, on what you are supposed
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	435
	to do. There was signs up.
	Now, what signs do you
	know that were up?
	: No, I mean, the one you read
	to me, about the sign about doing the 30-minute
	checks.
	Oh, I think this is -
	so -.
	- specifically talking
	about the cellmate
	requirement.
	: No. I mean, (Indiscernible
	*05:05:02) cellmate requirement. It was put
	out by the captain. Directives were given.
	Staff was spoken to. You know, it's kind of
	boiled down to people not doing their job. I
	mean, if I tell you, you have to do something,
	it's given to you in writing, what more do we
	have to do?
	Well, that's kind of my
	question, because the BOP is the one who wrote
	that finding. So, I'm curious myself --
	I mean, that's -
	- what you think -
	-- I mean --
	- that could have been
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	done.
	opinion.
	436
	-- that's somebody's
	: Right.
	: You know? That's a Monday
	morning quarterback that came in and make an
	opinion. I don't know what their ulterior
	motive is --
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	Can you think of any --
	-- for making it.
	- anything that wasn't
	done? Can you think of anything, like, oh, if
	this could have helped, or maybe he should have
	done that? As far as the cellmate requirement.
	: I can't think of anything
	they should have done.
	MR.
	MR.
	No. Okay.
	: Can I ask?
	:
	Yeah.
	I: I know it's bound to - based
	on once everything comes up, these are
	questions that they're going to have. So, I
	got to ask. I know you mentioned that you
	couldn't have secondary selection. Like,
	another replacement for Reyes, because inmates
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	keep moving. But is it possible that a list
	should have been created? That, you know,
	should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen,
	if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of
	maybe possible five inmates that you could
	choose from?
	But I mean, under, you know,
	different inmates, we can do that, but he was a
	high-profile inmate that --
	MR.
	: Mm-hmm.
	•: — I would have had to get
	that name and run it up to the department, to
	see if it was okay. it wasn't just him. I was
	going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you
	to, you know, we're going to put this guy -. I
	was, just like with the other ones, sent up to
	the department. So, again, it would have been
	based on who was there.
	: And because --
	: If that.
	: -- because of that
	extreme detail that had to go into selection, I
	think what
	is asking you is, should have
	there been a list of names that the higher ups
	signed off on, in case someone was removed,
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	they went to court, they didn't come back, they
	were transferred, things like this.
	MR.
	: Like, that's what they list
	as a fail safe. Like --
	_: Right. I mean —-
	MR.
	: - as a precautionary
	measure.
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	: - it could have been, but
	then it would have still been based on who was
	there that day, at the time.
	And that's why I think
	he's saying, like, a list of five people versus
	one or two. So, if this person is not --
	:
	I don't --
	: - there, what about this
	one? That one is not there, either. But maybe
	this guy. You know, that type of thing. Or
	did you -
	I just --
	- just stand by a hunch?
	- yeah. I just, I just
	feel, like, you know --
	= Don't know.
	- it was, I can't, no.
	I
	mean --
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	Mm-hmm.
	-- again, I'm operating in
	hindsight. I mean, at the time —-
	okay.
	- you know, that's what was
	done.
	MR.
	: Yeah, we know you do.
	Yeah. And we are
	absolutely asking you to operate in hindsight.
	Right.
	Saying, like -
	Yeah.
	-- Monday morning
	quarterbacking -
	Right.
	- yourself and your own
	institution, I get it. But, like, Monday
	morning quarterbacking this situation --
	_: Mm-hmm.
	- what do you think
	they, you know, they are referring to this as
	the BOP, and we are not the experts.
	_: Right.
	We're coming in. But BOP
	is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they
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	mean by this?
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	440
	Right. But -
	: And what are some things
	that could have been done?
	-- but those are individuals
	that are coming in, looking at a situation,
	that weren't deeply involved in it.
	Mm-hmm.
	: You know, they weren't the
	ones that were told, hey, okay, I'm talking to
	my boss, and it's going all the way up to the
	department. That wasn't -. That wasn't privy
	to them.
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	:
	Mm-hmm.
	That was a need to know
	basis.
	MR.
	: But unfortunately, everyone
	is who going to eventually look at this case -
	: Right.
	MR.
	1: -- is going to be doing the
	same exact thing as they are.
	: No. But what I'm saying is,
	if we're looking at assessing the situation on
	what happened in real time, that's what I'm
	talking about. So, in real time, now, if they
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	had known that, hey, you know what? These
	names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at
	the same time, maybe it would have been a
	different thought process.
	MR.
	: And was it possible - and
	maybe you discussed this - was it possible
	that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have
	replaced -? Did they have the ability to
	replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they
	have to come up the chain of command, for the
	chain of command to tell them who the new
	inmate -?
	441
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	They were instructed, hey,
	let us know when - where he's to have a
	cellmate at all time - and to notify, let
	someone know. Because again, due to the
	individual that he was, you just don't want to
	throw anybody.
	MR.
	: Okay. But doesn't that kind
	of hinder them from taking action? Let's say,
	at that point on that day, you are not in the
	institution, Captain
	was there, I
	understand.
	there.
	There was an acting warden
	You had the executive staff there.
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	Just because the warden is not there doesn't
	mean the institution doesn't run. That's why
	you have, you know, people acting on your
	behalf. You know?
	That could make --
	So, maybe -
	-- those decisions.
	- maybe, what
	you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since
	it sounds like you would have to go over your
	head to even make that decision, has to go to
	the regional director level, would the
	associate warden have the ability to go to the
	regional director, or would have they known to
	go to the regional director?
	: So, let's say that did
	happen, right? They would have -
	: Well, it did happen.
	: - no, I'm saying, as far as
	finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate.
	So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still
	working.
	: Mm-hmm.
	: Because I got the government
	phone. And they're going to call me and tell
	me, hey, this is what we got going on.
	He
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	needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like,
	okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it
	up.
	MR.
	: So, basically, you were
	always available. Someone was always
	available, that if the proper notification was
	being made, up the chain of command -
	_: Right.
	MR.
	1: -- a newer inmate could have
	been assigned.
	: That's why I carried it.
	That's why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23).
	So, to, I get calls all hours of the night,
	even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an
	issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah.
	MR.
	: Okay. And if someone does
	ask, should the SHU officers have been given
	the ability? Your answer to that would have
	been, you have that phone with you, someone
	should have made that notification. So --
	MR.
	Right.
	-- someone in the higher --
	: And they -
	: -- of command.
	-- and they would contact
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	me.
	MR.
	1: okay•
	: So, it was not, like, I'm
	off on paper. Because I am using my leave.
	But I'm still on duty because you can call me
	on my phone.
	MR.
	1: Okay.
	Yeah.
	: My last two questions.
	Based on your conversation, and after this --
	: Thank God.
	- based on your
	conversations, and this after-action report
	that we just reviewed those topics, what are
	the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to
	die?
	: I'm not -. I mean, that's -
	• I think -. I can't -. That's -. You know,
	like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm
	giving personal opinions. I'm not --
	: Again, and I'm not asking
	you to say why he killed himself.
	Right.
	Or if he could have.
	What I'm saying is, what are the failures of
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	the BOP?
	-
	--
	445
	: He killed himself because he
	ain't stupid. He said to himself, holy shit,
	I'm going to spend the rest of my life in
	prison.
	Yeah, yeah, and I'm not -
	: Yeah.
	- and I'm not,
	absolutely not asking --
	: No.
	-- as far as what is his
	mental state, and could have he had the ability
	But I can't --
	- but are the failures,
	as you see them, after we reviewed all this,
	that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong,
	in this instance? Unless you don't think that
	they did anything wrong.
	: No. I'm not saying they did
	anything wrong. But again, these are things
	that you are going to find. I mean, right now,
	I can look at it and say, we're looking at
	people not making rounds and all that. But
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	there's still an investigation going on.
	So, I
	don't want to sit here and speculate --
	No, but we are the ones -
	-
	-- and say -
	- doing the
	investigation, and -
	-- right.
	- you are the leader of
	the organization that, you know, of the place.
	That's why this is a very relevant question for
	you to answer because --
	Mm-hmm.
	- you know, this was the
	facility that you oversaw.
	Right.
	So --
	So, we're just -. All
	I'm simply asking is, what do you think the
	problems are, as you see them? After you just
	heard everything we just talked about for, it
	seems like the last five hours.
	: No. I mean, if we would
	talk - I mean, you're not counting. You didn't
	make your rounds in that unit, to check on an
	inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics
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	right there.
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	447
	okay.
	: You know, we can talk about
	all the other stuff, but the basic is, you did
	not go and make those rounds.
	: And would you also,
	though, add to that the fact that they didn't
	replace Reyes --
	_ :
	Oh.
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	- like they wer supposed
	to?
	Yes.
	Okay. What actions could
	the BOP have taken to possibly prevent
	Epstein's death?
	: It doesn't sound like --
	_: Right.
	: - still, you were nervous.
	Totally.
	That's all. I mean, you could
	have --
	It just, it sounds like
	they quote, the answer would be, conduct your
	rounds, conduct your counts.
	Get a --
	: Do your job.
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	Reyes -.
	448
	- do your job.
	Get
	: 99 times out of a 100, it
	wouldn't have happened.
	Right. So --
	: You know, it's -.
	- but in this case, it
	does seem, like, a lot of this was a result of
	- like you keep on saying - people not doing
	their jobs.
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	: Jobs.
	: But I mean --
	: Yeah.
	: - but in all fairness,
	we've had, since Epstein died, and before,
	we've had almost 60 suicides.
	So, it's the
	same reoccurring theme.
	: Right.
	: You know, people not making
	their rounds and doing what they're supposed to
	do.
	: And is that the same
	thing that's happening with them, they're not
	doing their rounds or counts?
	I mean, and nine times out
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	of ten, every time you look into something, it
	is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not
	counting, you know? So, it's the normal
	things.
	Are these other
	instances, where we find out that they didn't
	have cellmates?
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	•: Single cell. You know, I
	mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you
	1ook at it, and you look at the numbers of
	single cell inmates. But there is instances
	where, you know, sometimes you do have to put
	somebody in a cell single.
	Sure.
	: But, you know, there is
	other suicides, and they don't stop. You know?
	Some of it is, you know, staff had no control
	over it, and some staff had control over it.
	And I do apologize. I
	said that was the last question, but I guess I
	should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking
	yourself, is there anything that you should
	have done differently?
	:
	Hmm.
	As the MCC warden?
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	situation?
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	As far as what? This
	Yeah. Just anything that
	you feel, like, oh, you know, like, I should
	have done this better, or I could have done
	this better. That type of thing.
	I can't.
	Just for the record, let
	me just --
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	:
	I can't think of anything
	for that.
	-- okay. Anything else
	you have?
	MR.
	1: No.
	: That's it?
	Anything that --
	Jesus Christ.
	- you wanted to add to
	anything, Warden, anything that --
	: I didn't know if you said --
	- we missed, or you want
	to -?
	MR.
	: - generally.
	: No. No. That's it.
	: Is there anything you think
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	armpits.
	-
	-
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	we missed asking about?
	: Don't ask him that.
	_: Not that I can think of.
	: You have a right to remain
	silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys,
	listen, you know?
	Yeah. No. We got you.
	: Like, I was impressed that you
	did that. He couldn't go through this. I
	would have been to the bathroom, like, I got to
	do this, I got to do this. I mean, I got to
	make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He
	just sat there and answered all the questions.
	I mean, he's not -
	: Yeah.
	: - even sweating under his
	And thank you very much -
	Yeah.
	-- for your cooperation -
	No. I appreciate --
	Especially -
	- you guys.
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	452
	- the recording is
	showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes.
	So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is
	currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th,
	2021. This is Senior Special Agent
	, and I am turning off the recorder.
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	CERTIFICATE
	I hereby certify that the foregoing pages
	represent an accurate transcript of the
	electronic sound recording of the proceedings
	before the Department of Justice, Office of the
	Inspector General in the matter of:
	Interview of
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	Brianna Rose Burto
	Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber
	EFTA00128260