Datasets:
metadata
title: DOJ Epstein Files, Data Set 9 (EFTA00118867)
source: DOJ Epstein Files, Data Set 9
sourceUrl: https://huggingface.co/datasets/ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete
date: '2026-01-01'
category: DOJ Data Set
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DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
SEPTEMBER 22, 2021
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
Phone:
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APPEARANCES:
OTHER APPEARANCES:
NONE
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conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure."
MR. : And just so you’re aware, that’s what we’re writing on everybody that we interview.
Mr. : "This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me." Please read the form, review the form. If you
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MR. : And was there any way for him to activate it, with his current situation at the time being in the SHU?
MR. : Not that particular day, he was requested a phone. It would have took him, to actually activate it in SHU, and add money to it, because when you activate it in Special Housing Unit, let’s say he activates it to today. He would have to fill out a green form. Usually, they would do it on the computer. They don’t have computers in SHU where they could do it. So, they would have to fill out a green form, which would have to be given to them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. That green form is then filled out by them. And then, it’s submitted to our ITS, which then will put it, put the money on the money on his account. I would say it would take, like, three or four days, to a week, for it to actually be activated. Be in his account.
MR. : And was he provided a green form?
MR. : No. Because at that particular time, I just gave him the pin and pack. That was it.
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gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do it over the phone. I do apologize. He can actually put money over the phone.
MR. : Okay. But there was no phone for him to actually do that with?
MR. : No. Not, like, as far as a phone to give it to, and let him record it.
No.
MR. : But being assigned to the SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being in the attorney conference. I mean, would he have the ability to activate that?
MR. : In the attorney conference, there was no, there is no phone in there.
MR. : In the SHU, though, could he activated it?
MR. : In the SHU, we would have to actually give him the phone, the phone would have to be during his validation time. So, that validation times starts in the time that you come in the prison. So, say if he came in on the 19th, his activation time would be the 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. So, being that he never used the phone, he would be in there with an activated, probably,
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MR. : No. They notified me in attorney conference that he was ready because they knew I was leaving at 7:00.
did not know which cell was Epstein’s, and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on G-tier, which prefers for phone calls because inmates are not locked in their cells with the ability to pull the phone cord into their locked cell, and use it to commit self-harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the shower, where the guards are also physically present, with Epstein. used the first outlet on the left, which is the legal line.
Epstein provided with the phone number beginning with (347).” Now, before I go on, it says you used the first outlet on the left, legal line. Why the legal line?
MR. Because they have two lines in there. One is a legal line, and one is, where he uses his phone. So, he - let’s say if I plugged it in there, he can't use it because his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal line, like we give right now, we give inmates
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in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to put in that code, in order for them to make that call. So, there’s a certain call where the inmates don’t have.
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call? And this inmate been with us for a while. And me, personally, if he was my inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why his wasn’t set up, I don't know. And I will give you a good example. R. Kelly’s up there, his is set up. Why his wasn’t set up, my job as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a phone call?
He’s been asking for this phone call for a while. From his unit manager, from everybody, and I'm, like, why does this inmate don’t have his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm not his unit team. That’s not my responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty officer, and I know that I verified that he didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's just like any other inmate. It's only right to make sure that he stays in contact with his family, because that's part of the program statement of inmates visiting their families and keeping in contact with their family members. He didn't have a line to make it on.
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An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, if I did ask him, it was me giving him a courtesy. I would have did that to any captain.
MR. : If you was the captain.
It’s just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give this guy a phone call. This, this, and that.
could have said to me, oh, I don’t think that’s a good idea. And I would have said, okay. Probably would have went to somebody else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the same time, once again, there’s nobody there after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would have made that decision and said, hey, I'm going to give him a phone call.
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MR. : He said he’s calling his mother. Was there any steps that you should have taken to ensure that that call was monitored somehow?
MR. : The only way we monitor it is, I made the phone call, hello, how you doing? I don’t say, hey, is this his mother, because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 minutes. When he’s done with the phone call, disconnect, and that’s it.
So, we don't know. Let’s say, right now, I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or whatever. Do we know there’s a three-way, or
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anything? We don’t know. So, we sit down. We time it. 15 minutes. And we’re done. There’s no way to record that phone. There’s no way to pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, at that particular time.
That was in place since I’ve been at MCC. Has anything changed? The only thing changed since I’ve been there is they took out all of the legal lines, and they put them in one particular area. They took them all out of SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, and they changed the code for that particular reason.
MR. : The reason -. I'm one of the ones who actually brought it to the captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a
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regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was there, she - and anybody would say, okay, inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone restriction.
But remember, the warden is the only one who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can you give him a phone call? He’s on a phone restriction. There’s only two ways you could give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you can't give it to him on a social, you give it to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs the cop out. She approves it. Well, any warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how it's done. That’s how I've seen it done.
Once we get it approved, we give the inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - give him two minutes - hey, you have two minutes left and that’s it. Take the phone from the inmate. We don’t know that person is
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down there - you take him out. You pull the inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded area. You make the phone call. On speaker. Because that’s how we do it downstairs. And then, you give it to him on speaker. And then, you let him-. If he wants his 15-minute phone call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk to on speaker.
That’s how Epstein received his first phone call. It’s a three-minute phone call on speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could say, this is the way to do it. That’s not the proper way. The proper way to make a phone call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate secluded, because these guys can hear, too. So, you don’t know what he’s saying. He could be crying for his death. And you got other inmates right there. In the next cell who could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this to me. That.
So, the proper way is to bring the inmate out, put him in a belly chain, because then he has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put him on speaker. That’s the proper way.
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There’s not a lot of inmates that we do give phone calls. So, let’s say, if a dude said, hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick up. Okay. How you doing? Because he’s giving me that number, and I'm verifying that that number is on his - but which he don’t, you can't verify his numbers, because he don't have an account. So, give him the phone, and that's it. I don't -. Me verifying it, was it, you know, was it something I should have done?
Yes. Was it something I did? No.
MR. : Okay. And are inmates allowed to call just anyone, or is there a specific list of people that they are allowed to call?
MR. : Originally how it works is, if an inmate is asking for, of course, his mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he wants to speak to, usually, it's not ever a friend. It’s usually immediate family members. Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts, whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone list. But once again, how can an inmate have a phone list when he has no account set up?
MR. : So, the pack and pin, if he
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MR. : No. Monitor and log is just make sure we had a logbook that it was actually logged in a phone logbook. And at the time, they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there, they didn't have. We made, like, I recently made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that myself because I know what was - what we was doing in other prisons. They didn't have one here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And it wasn't after Epstein.
I just said, if we’re giving inmates legal calls, we need to have that documented, and so an inmate - let’s say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I never got this call. Same thing with social calls. Social calls have to be logged in the book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print the data off and say, okay, you made a 15 minute phone, but we should be logging it in because it should be also the person who’s giving that inmate that phone call.
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responsibility to set that up. And let’s say - I’ll give you a good example - let’s use R. Kelly. All right? He’s in my unit now. Okay? So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and pin. That’s something they’re going to do. Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line. He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He set it up the same way.
So, saying that is how long do we have Epstein, and it wasn’t set up? So, it should have been set up from the beginning. So, we wouldn’t have this problem where, okay, an inmate is entitled to call his family member or whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So, that’s besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm not going to sit there and sugar coat it and say, hey, I should have sat right there, but even sitting right there, what can I heard him say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever. And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have
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pulled him out and put him in this area, and put it on speaker.
But once again, we’re talking about 80 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you know, it should be four officers, instead of that. But it’s two officers. So, there was a lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going around. I’m not putting that on nobody. This is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not speaking about anybody else. So, once I realized a lot of stuff was going on, and that’s not just because of his death, it’s things that I know that should be happening. I put those things in place at MCC because it wasn’t happening.
I did those. I'm the one who put a green book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do it. I just knew it was the right thing to do. I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the com shop, and told him, take the legal line out. And it wasn’t just because of Epstein. It was because a lot of inmates were manipulating staff to give them the legal line, to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate
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her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again, inmates can ask for anything you want. If that’s just, like, if your visit has been taken for a year. They have the right to ask for a special visit.
MR. : The special visit is approved by who? The warden. Typically, the warden just usually don’t. They have to be really an emergency, somebody is dying, or something. But if you’ve been sanctioned, and if you read the policy, the only person who really can do that is the regional DHO, but under, of course, the warden, because that’s her jail, or that’s his jail, or whoever the warden is. They can do it. But they would have to - you would have to put it in the memo form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day. So, special visits never happen, but --
MR. : Sure.
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MR. : It was constant. And it was nothing -. I mean, so, I requested that because it was putting staff in a bind. My thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying, like, these are young staff. You know, some staff got, you know, once you get your year, you can go to SHU. They don't know no better. Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it in the social line. Right? And let's say you got a staff that's down there, and the inmate go, hold that, my phone's not working. It says social and legal.
So, you know the difference. And then, he takes it out of social and plug it. So, it might not be typically that staff member. It
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could be another staff member taking it out and putting it there. So, that's why I said, okay, let's get rid of it. What they did was, they did a quick fix. They put tape around it. Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What's putting tape around it? Anybody could take off the tape.
MR. : Right.
MR. : And it was happening. So, tape is coming off. Then they tried to put puddy in it. That didn't work. So, eventually, they did exactly what I asked them to do. There was only one line you could plug in. And that was your phone call. That's it. All legal lines was put in the back of the visit room, where you have to have a staff member present at that time.
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MR. : Let’s say I’m doing my rounds. I’m doing my unit manager rounds. All right? I’m doing my unit manager rounds. I’m doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the difference between the cord, and you go, what’s this guy on right here? Oh, he’s on a social call. No, he’s not on a social call. He’s on the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, I would go over there, and of course, I catch problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I don’t have no minutes. You don’t have no minutes. You shouldn’t -. You’re on phone restriction. It’s a lot. Now, it becomes a problem where, guess what? The inmate acts out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many phones we’ve replaced in there? Listen. It was a lot.
MR. : Like I said, me personally, I would never make an excuse for myself. You know? Regardless of the fact, the years that I have in, I should have did it the right way. There is no way for me, myself, to fall into MCC’s trap, which I did. And it caused me to be right here today. So, I would never make an
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mentioned unit manager rounds. What is that?
Is that like a lieutenant round?
MR. : No. So, what we do is, unit team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that we sign in.
MR. : You go in. You sign in. Put the time you in. And then, whenever you come out. So, we would go there, and we would run a roster with all of our inmates. 11 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom. Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need? They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I want a phone call. Okay. You on phone restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next validation date? And a lot of those guys were legit. Oh, by validation.
So, they can really make a phone call. So, I don't know why they wasn't getting phone calls. But then, I found out a lot, they didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere I've been, it's a SHU schedule. Monday, this
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range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay, Mondays, we don’t use the phone. It’s just us going to use the phone. And that should have been set up that way.
Once again, I set that up. I did. I didn't have to. But I did it because I thought it was just right for the inmates, and for the staff. This way, they're not, okay, they're giving this inmate a phone call today.
Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next day. And this becomes where the inmates are actually running the phones the way they want to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should be giving this range on Monday, and that should be every Monday.
If this dude is validated, and he can get a phone call, he should get a phone call. Leave it on that range, put it in the social line, he can only make - at that time - you can only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would cut off no matter what. So, you can go down there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you knew that the phone call was over. You knew it was over. It was done. Take it, give it to
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for . I could do rounds for . And I just have to send them the information here. So, I can do rounds for them. That’s in the new unit manager’s manual.
MR. : Now, aside from phone calls, what is a unit team member, or manager, checking in with the inmates on? What is the, like, what is the goal of checking in with the inmates?
MR. : We’re doing is reports. So, disciplinary action. So, we go there. An inmate has -. That’s why he’s in SHU. Disciplinary action. So, we do incident reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot of inmates from visiting can't set up their visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So, they would have to fill out a form, who they want. And then, we take that form and send it to trust fund, who they would then add those names to the visiting list. But they would have to already be in the inmates’ central file, if it's on those. So, we do visiting, incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And listen to their problems. So, that's why we
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had to go to SHU every day.
MR. : Now, did you have anything to do with, like, cellmates?
MR. No. The only time we would get involved with cellmate is when it was just, like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So, if the psychologist says, this person needs a cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I wild be, like, this is a good fit for him.
If this guy is a sex offender, and he’s not a sex offender predator, he’s just a sex offender. And he shouldn’t be with nobody who is a predator. He can be with another sex offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like, you know what? I know him. He used to be in my unit. So, I would give them, like, the psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell with this inmate.
So, yes, we would have input, as far as that, because we know the inmates. The unit team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like,
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the captain, for him to know an inmate, even though he’s doing his rounds, he don’t know the inmate more than unit team. So, yes, we would have input to psychology, and we did have input of who could go in with Epstein. We did have input.
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MR. Okay. Then here’s the thing. Okay. Let’s say your inmate is out in court. Okay? And typically, the right way. And I will say this about MCC. How they was doing this. Now, we didn't have that-. We have the holding cells now. We didn't have them before. They just put them there. I guess after this incident. But you would then - me personally - I would then put that inmate, and that inmate was in a good area, with officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that cell. But I would - me personally - I would probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute round, and that's just me, until his cellmate get there.
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MR. : It don’t matter. Let’s say you don’t have a cellmate. Once again, if your cellmate is in court, it’s just up here, just like I'm not taking excuses for what I did.
You know he’s suspect. Everybody knows that.
Okay. So, if you're going to put him there, there's a couple of ways you can do it. I will put him there and say, okay, guess what? We’re doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the best thing going, going right now. That I've seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him in there.
MR. : So, was it a conversation at all when you came back with, okay, where is his cellmate?
MR. : I didn't. I don't typically ask for a cellmate. I basically -. The only thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with a cellmate.
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I, as the duty officer, would ensure that he move with somebody. I promise you that. That’s just -. I do it right now. I do it now. When I have an inmate right now, in our suicide watch (Indiscernible *01:03:01).
(Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee. If he don’t find a cellee, and then I'm interviewing that cellee, I need to find out what kind of cellmate he’s putting in there with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy-. But I've done it. And that's something I will never go against, where if I know an inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to make sure he has a cellmate.
MR. : So, on this note, whereas Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was, early in the morning, you know, leaves the institution, listed on the court production list as WAB. In your unit manager experience, who was responsible for saying, he’s WAB, he’s not going to court, he’s WAB, he’s transferring from here, and there is emails from the U.S.
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They could have notified psychology. Anyone of us has supervisors, who had that list, should have notified psychology in the morning. It could have been -.
Because the SHU lieutenant, like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this list, you know, this guy leaving. He don't got no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I already know, Epstein is in court, while he's downstairs, right? He probably be down there until about, let's say 7:00, 8:00. Before he come up here, he have a cellmate. That's automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn't
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there, it’s the operations lieutenant. Who would then notify the captain and psychology, hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which then, if they would have did it early enough, when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have went back in that cell, and he would have had a cellmate.
MR. Absolutely. So, the actual way it should have worked is, the SHU lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the captain.
MR. : That is correct. It’s never our responsibility. Because that inmate, he belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain. SHU is the captain. That’s the captain’s baby. If you got a SHU lieutenant, it’s the SHU lieutenants. That’s mines. So, I know all my inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the cellmate left. Okay. Let’s get the cellmate for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay. Let’s make sure we don’t pick somebody like Tartaglione, or somebody else who’s going to, you know what I mean? Get accused of doing
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MR. : We don’t. But let’s say, if - and the reason why I say we don’t, but we still do - let’s say, if I knew it was my inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and then, I'm going to give you an example. All these guys that's come in over here, right? I get the list in the morning. They come here every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they're going into just quarantine unityyou. So, the process here, I had to find out the process when I got here. I get the list.
(Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is over there, she does all the bed assignments. So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed assignments, because technically, they are my inmates, I do their assignments. So, long story short, she says to us, she does it because she only have 20 inmates. She’s been doing since she’s been here. Okay. So, that’s something less I have to do. But I still have to make sure those inmates, because they come into my unit, all the cells are working. All the lights are working in the cell.
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Everything.
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second follow up to that, was you mentioned Tartaglione, and the things that, you know, were being talked about. What is your understanding of what happened with Epstein and Tartaglione?
MR. : The only thing I remember is - and this is when I first met Tartaglione. I didn't know anything about him. I didn't know his background. Anything. It was just alleged, and this is something that I heard, that he choked Epstein out. That’s the only thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit, like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever. He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was trying to get to me, caught up, I don't get into that. I was, like, whatever. He was just, like, no, I never did that. And you think I would do something like that? And I'm working on my case? All right. No problem. Never, ever talked about them again.
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MR. : The only thing I know is that he was placed on suicide watch. Remember, he wasn’t my inmate. So, that’s the only thing I remember about that incident.
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Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054.
"This memorandum is in regards of inmate Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein, concerning him making a call to his family. I told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to shorten his attorney visitation to make his social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and escorted the phone for him to make the social call."
I placed the phone in the first jack on the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained to me that he didn't have his phone set up to use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate Epstein who he was calling. He stated his mother. I remember dialing the number starting with (347), but the number was not notated.” It says “notated.” I'm guessing it says not. You meant not notated?
MR. □: And it actually was, but
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but responded that he couldn’t talk about the situation. The only colleague whose phone number has is AW because he had to use his personal phone to email her his timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein’s body, prior to its transport by OCME.” Now, you said you - this states that you used your personal phone to email pictures of Epstein’s body. Why did you use your personal phone to take Epstein’s -?
MR. : For one, R&D is supposed to come out there. R&D is supposed to come out there and fingerprint them. They came out there. They fingerprinted and that was it. Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they want to know when we’re leaving, because sent me out there. So, I had to stay with the body until the actual coroner came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. This is his body.
Where I had proof that the inmate was deceased, and he wasn’t walking off somewhere else. Because all the speculation now and in
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hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. I was, like, okay. When I got there, he was already at the hospital. He was deceased then. So, she told me to report to the hospital, and that’s when I reported, and I noticed his deceased body.
MR. : Do you know if, is there any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the MCC, or at the BOP facility?
MR. : That. There’s not a policy. They technically says it, but this, this rule was - I came in at ’94. That was an old rule. When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. The policy states it’s not us. Our medical people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, let’s say if an inmate, (Indiscernible *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a licensed, practiced. They can announce that person dead - and I’ve seen it all the time - at the jail. It’s just common for them to say, oh, he didn't die here. They always say that.
MR. : Do you --
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secured area in the hospital room. But he was already deceased.
MR. : Do you know if, at that time, what he was wearing?
MR. : I can't recall. I can just -. Whatever was on the video over the news, that's what he was wearing. Because I mean, that is on that there, with the thing in his mouth. That's what he was wearing.
MR. : Okay. And then, as far as, like, you know, all of the speculation that’s out there, do you have any information that would suggest that Epstein did not take his own life?
MR. : I don’t because I wasn’t there. You know, and, you know, what I speculate is totally different. I mean, it is what it is.
MR. : I just believe that -. I don't know how they went in the room. So, I wasn't there, of how they went in the room. You know, because, you know, when the doctor say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took
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inmates down in the room that was hanging, and the only way you can get -. I don't care if that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not doing it by yourself.
So, I don’t know how they entered the room. But policy states, when you go in the room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. Period. And you can't just pop that door. Because how do you know that inmate is not still living where he is trying to kill you, and then escape? Or you definitely need help. That’s why you have to wait for a lieutenant, because that lieutenant has to give you instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift that person, where if you go - to me - there is no way, if it was two or three people, and we picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22).
I just think, me personally, and hadn’t heard anything, but I just think one person was trying to do it by itself, and this, that’s no the proper way. And that’s just my opinion.
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Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I’ve seen numerous, and I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at least three or four people. Midnight, I understand, at night, you only have, but it don’t matter. These inmates are locked down. So, they can -. You can -. If I have a hanging, they’re already told. I'm already telling people, you know to vacate that post. Yes.
Anything can happen up there, but I would rather have three or four people with me, in the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because I don't know what's going on. You know, we heard all the stuff that went on witwhen I (Indiscernible *01:27:09) peppy, so definitely, I don't want something happening at midnight, when you could just vacate your post, come up there, and respond.
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MR. : -- are you talking about physically, though, too, not only the ruse roose (Phonetic Sp. *01:27:27) of, you know, this person could overpower you, and now have you as a hostage, but you could become - that person who was attempting to hang themself, or hanging themselves -is this - what if he was almost there, wasn’t deceased, and what if you’re trying to lift him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and you -. Because if, you know, remember, when they did the autopsy, then I would say, there’s no way he’s going to break that where, unless, you know, they was trying to say, you know, we killed them, unless one person is trying to do it. Epstein wasn’t 140 pounds. He was 200 something. So, there is no way I could lift that dude. There’s no way. So, I would never go in by myself. So, that’s my speculation,
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MR. : How -? Is it possible for, if you’re responding, you go in with a couple of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord off -?
MR. : No. We don’t do that. In all my lieutenants’ life, and I was a lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the fact, but mine, we’re taught this. There’s no ifs, ands, or buts. You’re taught to go in with enough people. One person, if it’s two inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if it’s day watch, and you should have at least ten people. That’s just like if you’re having a use of force. If there is one person, close to five.
If you can't get five, you at least want to have four. I'm not going to have three people. I'm going to wait until they get there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, you've got to look at your safety, and it's really - when you're going to use of force, it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to one. So, you always kind of use that concept.
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whatever is on his neck, if it’s tight, you’re shaking it down. These right here are actual cut down tools, where you’re going to go like this one time, and it’s just going to cut it. So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he is. Let’s say you do have -. Every SHU has cut down tools. Because they do.
But once again, who is responsible?
That’s the captain. Checking equipment.
Making sure your equipment is not dull. After two or three years, if you’re not using something, you’re always supposed to check that equipment. It’s normal. And then, psychology, they always do their mock mie drills. They do their mock mie drills, I think, quarterly. You know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that time, I would check myself, but I don’t - me personally - I would check myself. You just -.
You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, because once again, how does that look to me? How does that look? Like, if they did have a camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right.
MR. : Speaking of cameras, do you have any information, or reason to believe,
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MR. : My thing is, I can tell you this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, it wasn’t the captain. But any time a camera was down, like, there would be - how you say it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, we would know. And then, it would be forced to make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP.
So, if the cameras was down, especially certain cameras, they wouldn’t even let inmates out. They won't let them out. Because we can't see certain things. So, I don't -. I was shocked to see that cameras wasn't -. I was very shocked. Very. Because with those cameras, I think you could have saw more, and it could have either helped or hindered people. It didn't matter. I would rather for the cameras to work. I don't care whether it's
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Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's his job to say this camera is offline. So, the captain, then, could make that decision of what they want to do. Of how they want to go about things. That's his job. That's communications.
MR. : Remember those initials that we read earlier today? They’re not , but whomever else would have been
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I know I asked you the question. Was it, do you think it would have been possible if Thomas walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, hanging? As one person, do you think he could have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off himself?
time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, what’s the first -? What’s the first thing a kid do that (Indiscernible *01:38:30)? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this dude because, I already know I messed up. I was either sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I could see all the activity that this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a round. That’s it. So, if I'm not doing something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to try to fix it.
MR. : Was it possible for him to pull it off without a cutter?
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MR. : If the cutter wasn’t working. That sheet? No. It’s hard as -. Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to take a sheet, and pull it, and you’re going to burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for about a month. So, it’s hard. Because my understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it’s a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if he had it knotted right, there’s no way you could take it down by your hand.
MR. : And if a cutter was not used, if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it off, you think that's not possible? You're saying that's not possible?
MR. : Hmm. I saw what the media, how his room was set up. Actually, I’ve been up there. I saw it because they had the room carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot was still there, and you cut it, like this, there’s no way. There -. I don’t -. Listen,
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man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. There’s no way. There’s no way.
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1. The time is 2:32 p.m. on September 21st, 2021. We are ending the interview.
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## CERTIFICATE
I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of:
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