Datasets:
title: 'House Oversight: Estate Documents (Nov 12) (HOUSE_OVERSIGHT_010830)'
source: 'House Oversight: Estate Documents (Nov 12)'
sourceUrl: https://www.justice.gov/epstein
date: '2026-01-01'
category: House Oversight
eftaNumber: HOUSE_OVERSIGHT_010830
ocrPages: 1
ocrChars: 5658
ocrElapsed: 0
parseTier: external-legacy
engine: engine undisclosed (ep-nov-12.greg.technology mirror)
externalSource: greg-ep-nov-12
externalLicense: not granted
externalCredit: ep-nov-12.greg.technology
externalUrl: https://ep-nov-12.greg.technology
81 01:31:08 01:31:10 2 01:31:13 3 01:31:16 4 01:31:18 5 01:31:18 6 01:31:18 7 01:31:20 8 01:31.22 9 01:31.24 10 01:31.25 11 01:31.29 12 01:31:30 13 01:31:34 14 01.31.34 15 01.31.35 16 01:31.37 17 18 19 20 21 0131:41 23 01:31.41 24 01:31.42 25 focusing on the witness, but everybody on this side of the room has been distracted by his unprofessional conduct. MR. SIMPSON: I'm not going to argue with you. And I -- MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. MR. SIMPSON: -- I disagree with that characterization. There is another attorney sitting between us. We will pass notes. MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. MR. SIMPSON: And we -- and I believe, Ms. McCawley, were you instructing not to answer or what was happening? What did you -- what were you raising? MS. MCCAWLEY: No. There was a lot of yelling going on here, so I was trying to make sure that everybody was quiet -- MR. SIMPSON: All right. MS. McCAWLEY: - so that the client could answer. MR. SIMPSON: All right. Let me back up. 22 BY MR. SIMPSON: Q. Professor Cassell, I think you were in the middle of an answer? A. I was. Yes, if I could conclude -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 82 01:31.43 1 MR. SIMPSON: All right. Could the court 01:31.44 2 reporter read me the last two lines of your 01.31.46 • 3 answer? 01.31:46 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 01:31.46 5 (Thereupon, a portion of the record was read 01:31.46 6 by the reporter.) 01:31.46 7 BY MR. SIMPSON: 01.32.26 8 Q. Okay. Can you pick up then? 01.3227 9 A. Sure. I'll pick up -- pick up the -- 01:3227 10 Q. Okay. 01:3231 11 A. So I was beginning to draw an adverse 01:32.31 12 inference when Jeffrey Epstein, who is at the heart of 01:32:34 13 the sexual abuse of, not only Virginia Roberts, but 01:32.39 14 dozens and dozens and dozens of -- of girls literally 01.32.40 15 scattered across the globe, takes the Fifth, refuses to 01.32:43 16 answer the question, off the top of my head, I can't 01:32:46 17 recall exactly, but something along lines of: Do you 01.32.48 18 know Alan Dershowitz? And he says, I take the Fifth. 01:32.50 19 That sort of, frankly, startled me, that -- that this 01:32:55 20 international sex trafficker was taking the Fifth now 01:32:57 21 when asked about Mr. Dershowitz. 01:33.01 22 And so I was stymied in trying to get 01:3304 23 information from Mr. Epstein at that point. I think 01.33:07 24 there were two depositions, if I recall correctly off 01:33:.0g 25 the top of my head, that -- that I had an opportunity to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 21 of 38 sheets 83 01:33:11 review, in which he took the Fifth when asked questions 01:33:13 2 about Dershowitz. 01:33:14 3 So, at that point, in trying to figure out, 01:33:17 4 you know, whether Mr. Dershowitz was involved in 073390 5 sexually abusing, not only Virginia Roberts, but in 81033'24 6 other girls, then you go down to the next level, next 7 layer of the criminal conspiracy. 01:33:28 8 Epstein is at the top, so you go to the next 01:33:31 9 layer. These are, you know, basically the -- the women 01:33.33 10 who, from what I could gather, were -- were older than 01:33:36 11 the age that Epstein wanted to sexually abuse. I think 01:33:40 12 these were 22 and 23-year-old girls, so they had, you 01:33:44 13 know, essentially aged out of being his sexual abuse 01:33:47 14 victims, but they continued to -- what they would do is 01:33:50 15 collect girls for him under the age of 18, that I guess 01:33:53 16 was in his target range. 01:33:55 17 And so what - so the next person I wanted to 01:33:58 18 talk to, you know, and get information from was Sarah 01:34:01 19 Kellen. Sarah Kellen is on a lot of these flight logs 01:3404 20 with, you know, these girls that -- or women and with 01:34:07 21 Epstein and others, and so I wanted to talk to Sarah 01.34:07 22 Kellen. 01:34:11 23 But what I discovered there was that, when 01:34:15 24 Sarah Kellen was asked about Alan Dershowitz, she took 01:3418 25 the Fifth, and there was -- she wasn't the only one. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 84 01:34:21 1 01:34:25 2 01:34:27 3 01:34:30 4 01:34:33 5 01:34:35 6 01:34:38 7 01:34:42 8 01:34:46 9 01:34:49 10 01:34:51 11 01:34:54 12 01:3457 13 01:35:00 14 01:35:00 15 01:35:02 16 01:35:05 17 01:35:09 18 01:35:12 19 01:35:15 20 01:35:17 21 01:35:18 22 01:35:21 23 01:35:23 24 There was Miss Mucinska, who also took the Fifth when asked questions about Alan Dershowitz. And then there was Marcin -- Miss Marcinkova who also took the Fifth. So what we -- what I had at this point was Jeffrey Epstein's international sex trafficking organization. I had the next echelon, and both the top kingpin of the sex trafficking organization, and the next echelon had taken the Fifth, had refused to answer questions about Alan Dershowitz. And so, at -- at that point, I was drawing an adverse inference, not just from one person, but from four persons, and that adverse inference was being strengthened by the surrounding circumstances, some of which we have already talked about. One of the things that -- that really bolstered the adverse inference that I was drawing in this case was that I've mentioned those three girls, Kellen, Mucinska, and Marcinkova. They were all covered by a nonprosecution agreement. And the nonprosecution agreement was highly unusual. I -- I had been a federal prosecutor for about four years, I had been a federal judge for about five-and-a-half years, so I had seen a lot of - of, you know, nonprosecution types of arrangements. And one of 01:35:26 25 the things that was very unusual in this one is, it has ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 Page 81 to 84 of 151 10/20/2015 01:07:28 PM HOUSE_OVERSIGHT_010830