--- title: "DOJ Epstein Files, Data Set 9 (EFTA00113967)" source: "DOJ Epstein Files, Data Set 9" sourceUrl: "https://huggingface.co/datasets/ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete" date: "2026-01-01" category: "DOJ Data Set" eftaNumber: "EFTA00113967" ocrPages: 0 ocrChars: 34215 ocrElapsed: 0.0 parseTier: "external" engine: "ishumilin OCR pipeline (engine undisclosed; CC0 mirror)" externalSource: "ishumilin-ocr-complete" externalLicense: "CC0-1.0" externalCredit: "ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete (Hugging Face)" externalUrl: "https://huggingface.co/datasets/ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete" --- ```markdown SWORN STATEMENT ``` DIGITALLY RECORDED ```markdown OIG CASE #: ``` ```markdown 2019-010614 ``` DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00113967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. I’m going to read it out to you first. And then I’ll let you review it also. You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 as amended. This investigation pertains to job performance failure and security failure. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not have to answer any questions. No disciplinary action will be taken against you if you choose not to answer any questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as evidence in any future criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary proceedings, and/or both. Now this is the waiver part. This is for you. I understand the Warnings and Assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. Do you understand? ```text : I understand. ``` EFTA00113971 EFTA00113972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113975 EFTA00113976 EFTA00113977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 EFTA00113980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 person during the course of a shift that I don't communicate with. Especially when I'm making rounds. And especially during that time, I communicated with them even more because we were below the bottom of the barrel then when it came to staffing. So we really didn't have a lot of -. We didn't have anybody back then. We didn't even have enough staff at that time to even respond to body alarms. Or to do uses or forces. You know. Especially on morning watch. It's already tight. But we was even tighter. So that was one of those nights when as much as -. Well that night as like every other night. As much as possible I tried to talk to staff because staff were doing back-to-back mandations then. And you had staff that were being mandated every day of the week Monday through Sunday. Or Sunday through Saturday as we say in Bureau. Because that's when our week officially starts - Sunday. : When you say mandated what do EFTA00113981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 mandatory overtime. That’s when you’ve exhausted your overtime roster. That’s the people that sign up for overtime. You’ve gone through that. There’s no one available. Or you get everybody from that list that wants to do overtime or that’s available. Then you announce it over the intercom system. That’s voluntary. Whoever wants overtime outside of that, you can assign them overtime from there. And then we go to mandatory overtime. That’s when we have nothing else left. And we have to utilize the staff that we have currently on duty that’s not officially on a double-shift. That’s not officially on 16 hours. Because there were days when staff would be late. There were days when there wasn't EFTA00113982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 EFTA00113983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 EFTA00113984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 EFTA00113985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 administrative duties, described how a count at the MCC works and that the lieutenants are responsible for supervising one count per shift. described that during the count, two guards assigned to the area are to unlock the main gate that separates the cells from the open and common area where the guards are. One guard will walk down range and actually look into each cell and count the number of prisoners inside. Once the count is complete, the guard will return to the gate and exchange places with the guard that was left to secure the gate. That guard will then walk down range and count the number of prisoners in the cells. Upon completion, the guard will return to the gate, secure it from the outside, and record the numbers that came from their count. Those numbers will be compared to the master list of prisoners on record for being assigned to the cells. In addition to the numbers being recorded and compared to the master list or the -1 sheet, the guards will call in or receive a call from internal and give a verbal record of their count. And internal. EFTA00113986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 I’ll repeat that back. In addition to the numbers being recorded and compared to the master list or -1 sheet, the guards will call in or receive a call from internal. take the count, once they have gone around to each range and both of them had counted each range, before they leave that range, they will compare their count for that particular range. And they would do that in each subsequent range. When they’ve completed, they call the control center. And they will call in their unit. They will call in the count that they got for that particular unit. They will give them their name, who conducted the count, and at that time, the control center will let them know whether they have a good count or a bad count. Internals position is to pick up those count slips after each unit has counted and place those counts slips out into their EFTA00113987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 respective sally port to be picked up by internal. They do not call. Internal has absolutely nothing to do with their count unless they get a bad count. Sometimes internal, or if we have other extra staff, they will go up there and they will assist them with the count. You know just to see maybe if one of them miscounted or something like that. They would just be like an additional person. A new set of eyes, basically, to assist them with the count. ```markdown So before I continue, I had a question for you. Can you say the difference between internal and control? What exactly their duties are? ``` The internal officer is an officer who mans the elevator. He’s responsible for moving inmates around in the institution. He has - they have checks and stuff that they do throughout their shift. But mainly they’re responsible for moving inmates up throughout the institution. They respond to body alarms. They pick up the count slips. And they just have general duties throughout the night. They assist with the count EFTA00113988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 EFTA00113989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 EFTA00113990 EFTA00113991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00113992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 EFTA00113993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 EFTA00113994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 EFTA00113995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 EFTA00113996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 EFTA00113997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 EFTA00113998 EFTA00113999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 EFTA00114001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 or -1 sheet, the guards will call in or receive a call from internal and give a verbal record of the account and internal will compare that number to the number that they have on file and advise the count matches and is good or does not match and a count needs to be conducted again. You clarified that. You explained how the control and the internal works. The count slips prepared by the guards are then placed in the area for pickup by another guard assigned in the MCC and brought to control for review. In addition to the official counts that are to be conducted at specific times during each shift, informed that the guards are also responsible for conducting rounds every 30 to 40 minutes. During the rounds, the guards simply walk the range and view that the prisoners are alive and in their cells with no issues. The number of prisoners is not recorded, but simply the fact that a round was conducted. And the officers who conducted it is. When asked, stated that she has no knowledge of rounds or counts not being conducted and that no one would tell her if that were the EFTA00114002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 EFTA00114003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 -- so that the rounds can be irregular if you get tied up. Because when you’re making rounds, inmates will stop you. They will hold conversations with you and ask questions. You know and so it’s hard to keep those rounds within those guidelines because there’s always something to trip you up. When you’re making rounds you may notice something out of place, so that would stop you. But as far as those rounds getting conducted, those rounds are supposed to be conducted on an irregular basis. But do understand that there are things that will trip you up. So sometimes you may be on time. Sometimes you -. It’s hard to fall within those guidelines because you’re - it’s live time. Everything is live. So you can’t predict what’s going to happen while you’re making your rounds. ```markdown : Understood. And that was a summary of your interview. So as you can see, we have a few questions we want to follow -. : Right. : And we’ve got -. ``` EFTA00114004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 EFTA00114005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 EFTA00114006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 subordinates or COs, correctional officers, who report to you, how would you communicate those instructions to them? I usually did it when I made my rounds. And I would tell them. But you could also do a thing such as 3-3-3s. And that way, that’s when everybody come on the line and you could do it that way. But you really didn’t have time. It was easier to just tell everybody individually because that way you’re with them in person. And it’s just easier for you to do it at that time because if they had questions, then they could ask you questions. And when you’re doing over the phone at the hole, you’re sitting in the office. So you’re really not getting anything done, you know. At least if I’m making my rounds, I’m getting my rounds done and I’m doing my - passing down information to my staff at the same time. And also it lets me know that you got it. I’m telling you. it’s just you and me. There’s no distractions in the background. There’s nothing else going on. But it just depends on the person. Okay. EFTA00114007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 ```markdown How they got that information to each individual staff. Would you communicate that directly with your COs or would you tell another CO to pass on the message? ``` It depends on what the information was. I mean things that you want them to know and definitely. If it was something that was a new policy or procedure or something like that, you would definitely want to tell them yourselves because at that time, like I said, there wasn’t anything coming out in writing. That’s generally how new policy and procedure is put in place. You know you either receive a memorandum saying starting with this memorandum or starting with effective today or some other date, this is what we’re going to be doing. That’s generally how that information is put out. Or some type of manual or something like that is updated. Those are the ways that it’s generally put out. That way you have the information there and you can refer back to it as needed. ```markdown What if it involved an inmate? Like certain instructions for certain ``` EFTA00114008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 EFTA00114009 EFTA00114010 EFTA00114011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 EFTA00114013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 EFTA00114014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 EFTA00114015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 EFTA00114017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 EFTA00114018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 EFTA00114020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 EFTA00114021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 EFTA00114023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 EFTA00114024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 EFTA00114025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 That should be an all staff email to be honest with you. Because that way everybody in the institution knows that there’s an important reason why that inmate needs a cellmate. And that way if at some point in time it’s not happening or there’s a lapse in that, everybody knows. So you’ve got - because you have staff making rounds around the institution on the housing units and all of that stuff all the time. You know. different members of the institution staff. So that would be an all staff email just to alert everybody in the institution that, you know, if you’re ever in that area and you come across this inmate and he doesn’t have a cellie, then you need to follow-up, ask why, make sure somebody knows that that inmate don't have a cellie. : I’m going to clarify. Based on the fact that based on what we - our investigation. Inmate Efren Reyes was assigned as a cellmate for Jeffrey Epstein. according to psychology - he was required to have a cellmate. Now Inmate Efren Reyes was EFTA00114026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 EFTA00114027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114028 EFTA00114029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 to the MCC, Epstein should have been placed on 10 South. That’s our - what they consider the maximum-security unit here. He never should have been placed on 10 South anyway because you’re not guaranteed that anybody in this building is going to maintain a cellie because it’s an administrative institution. Inmates come and go all the time. So there’s - they don't have a sentence date. And with that said, that means that at any point and time while we’re sitting here, the courts can release somebody and that inmate is gone right now. So to put out an email to certain individuals and not make that an all-staff email so that it would -. And I guess we have to go back and say what was the intentions of that? If it’s something that you feel is concerning and that absolutely needs to happen because you still feel that this inmate is at risk, then you say to yourself, well why is he being released from suicide watch? Or psych ops. Why, you know? If you feel that this inmate still needs this type of supervision. And if the answer to that is yes, he still needs that type of supervision, then you would EFTA00114030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 recommend that, you know, why don't you keep him?? Why aren’t you maintaining him? You know. On watch? If he requires that type of supervision? Or why - since you didn’t do it to begin with - which they should have done. Considering he was high-profile, he was an atrisk inmate, just the fact that he was a high-profile inmate, he should have been placed on 10 South. After he attempted suicide and they determined that they was going to remove him from that and required him to have a cellie. Then they should have either made it an all-staff email, made sure everybody was aware - everybody. Not just -. And it’s difficult because people are on days off, people are on vacation, people are on sick leave, you see what I’m saying? So for somebody like Epstein. Epstein should have automatically gone to 10 South where he would have had 24-hour monitoring on him at all times. : Okay. Assuming that the CO-. Let’s start with the COs. Assuming the COs in the SHU knew that this was a requirement. EFTA00114031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 In day watch. If he was removed at 8:30, who is responsibility would it have been to notify upwards? EFTA00114032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 EFTA00114033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 EFTA00114034 EFTA00114035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 EFTA00114036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 EFTA00114037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 EFTA00114038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 EFTA00114039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 EFTA00114041 EFTA00114042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE R&D. Usually dry cell is done in the special housing unit. So I can’t remember what his status was but he was -. I can’t remember if he was on dry cell or if he was on - if that was an extension of the suicide watch. I can’t remember, but there was an inmate down there. And he was being housed down there with the watch on that particular night. And they were counting him on the unit because they hadn’t received any guidance as to how he was going to be counted. Because R&D, mind you, is the intake unit. It’s not a housing unit. : Okay. theoretically are not supposed to be staying - spending the night down there. EFTA00114043 EFTA00114044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 EFTA00114046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 EFTA00114047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 EFTA00114048 EFTA00114049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 EFTA00114051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 EFTA00114052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 EFTA00114053 EFTA00114054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 inmates. When we make rounds, we get with the officers. We make sure that -. I mean if we choose to do that we can. But -. requirement? For your requirement, that one per shift of round. That’s to do rounds with your officer - or with your staff - as opposed to conducting a round with them? unit to each individual cell and check on the inmates. If we chose to do that based upon something that we knew wasn’t right or something that we had heard or something like that during the course of our shift. Then that - and we felt as though we needed to double check on it. Because our officers are our eyes and ears. And during that time, we didn’t’ have a whole lot of time. We would spend half of our shift just trying to fill overtime. At that time. EFTA00114056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 EFTA00114058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 EFTA00114061 EFTA00114062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 EFTA00114063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 EFTA00114064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 22. . This is for that section that you’re pointing to. That would be the number of inmates that are not in their respective housing units from these areas - the different EFTA00114065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 EFTA00114066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 EFTA00114071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 EFTA00114073 EFTA00114074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 EFTA00114075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 EFTA00114076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 EFTA00114077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 EFTA00114078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 EFTA00114079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 EFTA00114080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114081 EFTA00114082 EFTA00114083 EFTA00114084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 You know. You’re not guaranteed to have a cellie there. You know. So you may have a cellie and you may not. Epstein was a high-profile inmate. All high-profile inmates they usually assign to 10 South. Epstein had just-. Even before he committed suicide. Everybody knew and that’s not just here. That’s people in the region. You know all the way up to Donald Trump knew Epstein was here. You know. And when you look at Donald Trump all the way down the line, you know, to the regional director, the correctional services administrator. All those people should have been involved in where EFTA00114085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 EFTA00114086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 been put up there from day one. Most especially after he attempted suicide. So if you didn’t place him up there from day one. When he attempted suicide with a cellmate. Okay? Let’s not forget that because when he attempted suicide, he had a cellmate. : Yeah but isn’t the reason why he didn’t - wasn’t successful partly because of the cellmate? My understanding was because once you’re - once you commit suicide, you want another person to try to prevent it from actually a suicide being successful. So if they want someone in there to basically watch him, wouldn’t they want him in the SHU versus 10 South? ```markdown : You’re not guaranteed but I think that the purpose of him being required a cellmate was that they want someone in there. And that’s why they wanted him vetted. Because the purpose was so that someone could be watching him partly. If he’s trying to hang himself, there’s obviously going to be another cellmate in there saying what are you going? ``` EFTA00114087 EFTA00114088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 EFTA00114089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 EFTA00114090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 EFTA00114091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 we do these pass downs, everybody is different. Some people tell you verbatim everything that happened. Some people don't. That’s just the nature of the beast. You know. I could sit here all day and say somebody should have told me something. Or you know if they had the information. But when you’ve got so many things on your mind and you’ve dealt with so many things during the course of the day, you know, people don't want to continue to stand there and do it. People forget. I mean they could have been standing there talking to me for five minutes with all the things that go on during the course of the day. You know. That’s not just here. That’s every place I’ve EFTA00114093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 EFTA00114094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 EFTA00114095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 EFTA00114096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 EFTA00114097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 EFTA00114098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 captain and he should have made sure a cellmate was put in there. If knew, same thing. He should have notified the captain, he should have put someone there. If you knew, you should have notified the caption, you should have put someone there. That’s just the kind of what the ops lieutenant does. Would it be basically the ops lieutenant if it came up to that person? They notify the captain. They make sure it’s done. Is that a fair assessment? : Yeah. That’s a fair assessment. And you’re just notifying - and the only reason why we’re letting the captain know is to let him know. Hey, you know you guys, we keep telling you this guy should be on 10 South, but you keep him on SHU. And we keep running into these close - really, really, close calls. EFTA00114100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 ```markdown : Alright. So prior to him even dying, you know, prior to August 10th. It was the captain and above were notified, hey we need to get him on 10 South? ``` Let me tell you something. If we as lieutenants are responsible for knowing everything that we’re supposed to know. And we’re running this institution off the cuff, we don't know what’s going to happen here at any given time of the day or night. If we’re required to know that, you think that these cats in the region and in the central office and at the executive staff level don't know the same thing that or more than we know? EFTA00114101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 EFTA00114103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 EFTA00114104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 EFTA00114106 EFTA00114107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 EFTA00114108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114109 EFTA00114110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 EFTA00114111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 EFTA00114112 EFTA00114113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 EFTA00114114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 EFTA00114115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 EFTA00114116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 EFTA00114118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 EFTA00114119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 EFTA00114121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 EFTA00114122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 EFTA00114123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 EFTA00114124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 EFTA00114125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 EFTA00114126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 EFTA00114127 EFTA00114128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 EFTA00114129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 EFTA00114130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 anything. He really didn’t say anything about the incident. He said that he had gotten up to get some water and the next thing he knew -. I think that was what he said. He had gotten up. I would have to look at my memo. I think he said he had gotten up to get some water or something like that. And the next thing he knew we were there. EFTA00114131 EFTA00114132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 : Okay. Point being, like if he’s claiming someone tried to kill him, but also at the same time is saying that he’s trying to commit suicide. He didn’t have anything around his neck. Is there any reason for you to believe that his cellmate was actually trying to kill him? No. I mean I had no proof that his cellmate tried to do anything to him. And I'm trying to remember what the officer said. I don't even remember offhand what the officers were telling me. I don't know if they saw him with something around his neck or what they observed. But I can't remember. I would have to refer back to my notes. Because that was a long time ago. Sure. So if counts are not conducted. And I'm assuming -. Are counts more important than rounds? Or are they both just as equally as important? I mean they're both important. They are both independently important. Okay. So let's go first with counts. If counts are not conducted, who EFTA00114133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 is -. So if counts are signed off on. You’re given a count slip. If those counts actually weren’t conducted. So if let’s say for instance that during your shift, the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. If they were not conducted - those counts- who is responsible for that? For them being signed and certified? Who - so I’m assuming the people? Noel and Thomas are the ones assigned to that shift. And they are the ones who certify that those counts were conducted and then provided to you. Are they the only ones that are responsible for providing false information? : Correct. So if they’re saying they conducted counts but they didn’t. So they were providing you with something saying either 72 or 73, but those counts were not conducted. EFTA00114134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 EFTA00114135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 EFTA00114136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 EFTA00114138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 EFTA00114139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 EFTA00114140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 EFTA00114141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 EFTA00114142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 aware of that, and especially if control is taking the count. Then control will call them back and tell them I need a new count slip because this one is not right. And usually the only time that that would happen is would be like in the incidents where we may have moved a staff member during that time. And we need to go back and update that count slip that we were originally getting. Or like in this case with the inmate being in R&D. We needed to go back and get another count slip that reflected the new count which was 72. Once we put the inmate in R&D. ```markdown Okay. On that same topic, if the count was wrong, and you told them that they needed to go back and do another count. Not that the count was wrong. That the count slip was wrong. The ``` EFTA00114143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 EFTA00114144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 EFTA00114145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 EFTA00114146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 EFTA00114147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 EFTA00114148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 EFTA00114150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 EFTA00114151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 EFTA00114152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 thousand times. I’m not here to cover for nobody. I’m not here to provide false answers for something that somebody had done, but at the same time, you all are throwing these questions at me about what somebody would have done. I don't know what's in somebody's mind - it. So that's what we're trying to get you to answer more like yes, no, hey I don't know on that front. So we’re trying to keep it consolidated and ask you direct questions. What did you know? Did you know if they did another count slip? Well what I also know is there’s no reason for them to not have done it. I’ve never had a reason or a circumstance where somebody didn’t do a corrected count EFTA00114153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 EFTA00114154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 EFTA00114155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 EFTA00114156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 EFTA00114158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 EFTA00114159 EFTA00114160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 EFTA00114161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 EFTA00114162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 EFTA00114163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 reported, hey he's supposed to have an inmate - he's supposed to have a cellmate in here. He doesn't. : That’s if they knew. There is no reason for me to believe that those guys that was there on SHU that if they knew that, whether or not before they left, I’m sure they would have questioned that again as to what you want me to do about this particular situation. : Okay. So should have each -. So then let’s say if Thomas and Noel did know. And they knew he was without a cellmate. Should have they then told you? When you did your rounds? Like when they’re calling control. And you’re stopping by at 4:00 a.m. Would have it been their responsibility to say hey, just so you know, he’s required to have a cellmate and he doesn’t. ```markdown I’m not going to say that that’s what they should have done because there’s no rules and regulations regarding that. But they - I would have - if it was me, I would have mentioned it. ``` EFTA00114164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 EFTA00114165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 that off on other people. But there’s a -. There’s no clear and defined form of policy and procedure here. There’s no consistency that goes on here. Everything is hodge-podge. A lot of times, people are required to make decisions off the cuff or to do -. Because when you come here, if you don't have or while you’re here - or working here. There is no formal guidance that teaches and guides staff to know what they’re supposed to be doing. There’s nothing written in stone regarding what you’re supposed to be doing and what you’re supposed to be doing on a daily basis. There are post orders and stuff like that. But they’re not in depth enough to let staff know this is what you’re supposed to be doing. There are a lot of things that - decisions that people make off the cuff that's not ever put in writing. And that they would tell whoever's here at the time. And I guess expect that information to get disseminated throughout the institution. And it's not. That's not being done. That’s not being done. So you have a lot of - we have a lot of new staff here. And a lot of them are falling between the cracks EFTA00114167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 because they just aren't getting information to them in a manner in which they should. So you’re saying that there’s orders or decisions coming down from up above? And it’s not being properly communicated out. : This is how. This is how this place has always been. You -. People in-in-in-in um positions will require the people up under them to carry their load rather than them carrying their own load. When if -if I’m a lieutenant, my duties and responsibilities and authority end at a certain level. At that point, the captain and above takes over. A lot of times, you don't see that. They expect you to do your job and their job as well. We can't -. There are certain decisions that we can't make. If it was up to me, Epstein would have been up on 10 South. So those are the type of decisions where you tell people that these things are wrong. You give them intel about certain things. And here we are. We done found a loaded gun in the institution. That - those type things should never happen. Never happen. EFTA00114168 EFTA00114169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 EFTA00114170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 into the Bureau, you didn’t even have email. So how was - and you still now is no different than back then. You still have inmates who was with in potential danger. The same situations that existed in the institutions then. It’s the same instances that exist now. So if back then they were able to make sure everybody was on the same page and that information was disseminated and it got to everybody. Why should it be any different here? You can’t rely on an inmate because first of all, in order to know, you don't just send out. That’s the whole purpose of walking and talking. To disseminate information that way. Because you’re never guaranteed that when you send out an email that somebody is going to read it. I have a ton of emails on my computer at home that I don’t read. So nothing is guaranteed. You have to know. When you’re in charge and you’re running something, you-you-you-you need to know that whatever you put out there, that if it's that important, if it's that important, why are you sending it through an email anyway. Why aren’t you calling somebody on the phone? Back it up. Call people on the phone. Make EFTA00114171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 EFTA00114172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 EFTA00114173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 EFTA00114174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 EFTA00114175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 EFTA00114176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 EFTA00114177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 EFTA00114178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00114179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 EFTA00114180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 EFTA00114181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 EFTA00114182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 ## CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of mani Bratty Marci Bratton, Transcriber EFTA00114183