--- title: "DOJ Epstein Files, Data Set 9 (EFTA00064311)" source: "DOJ Epstein Files, Data Set 9" sourceUrl: "https://huggingface.co/datasets/ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete" date: "2026-01-01" category: "DOJ Data Set" eftaNumber: "EFTA00064311" ocrPages: 0 ocrChars: 97876 ocrElapsed: 0.0 parseTier: "external" engine: "ishumilin OCR pipeline (engine undisclosed; CC0 mirror)" externalSource: "ishumilin-ocr-complete" externalLicense: "CC0-1.0" externalCredit: "ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete (Hugging Face)" externalUrl: "https://huggingface.co/datasets/ishumilin/epstein-files-ocr-complete" --- EFTA00064311 EFTA00064312 EFTA00064313 13 MR. : -- new position? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: It just got there. Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. How long were you the deputy regional director? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: I got it in February. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Of 2021. 7 MR. : And as the deputy regional director, what were your duties and responsibilities? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Monitoring the activities of the 20 institutions in the region, and you know, managing the administrators within the northeast region, and, you know, showing that institutions were running in an orderly fashion. 9 MR. : Now, did you supervise the various wardens at those institutions? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. I was over there. I was the rating official on some of the evaluations. 11 MR. : And were you a warden prior to that position? 12 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes, I was. 13 MR. : Where were you a warden? 15 you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who was housed within the MCC in July and August of 2019? 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. 15 MR. : Yes. Okay. Great. What I have here is an after-action report that was written by the BOP. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Have you seen this? 18 MR. N'DIAYE: I have not seen that. 19 MR. : All right. So, this is not something that you are actually familiar with? 1a MR. N'DIAYE: No, I am not. 1b MR. : No one discussed any findings or anything like that with you? 1c MR. N'DIAYE: No one. 1d MR. : All right. I'm going to set this aside just in case we need to, you know, reference it. So, no role in the after-action report? 1e MR. N'DIAYE: Nothing. I wasn't interviewed. I wasn't spoken to. 1f MR. : All right. Do you know of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to 17 MR. N'DIAYE: In New York. MCC. The Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York. 18 MR. : And how long were you a warden there? 19 MR. N'DIAYE: I came from May of - '17, 18 '18 - May of '18 until, I forget the date, in 2020. I forget what it was. 20 MR. : Okay. So, May 2018 to some time in 2020 -- 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 22 MR. : -- when you became the regional director? 23 MR. N'DIAYE: No. The position -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. N'DIAYE: -- prior to that, I was given -- 26 MR. : Okay. 27 MR. N'DIAYE: -- was a liaison to the regional director. And then, I went into the deputy position. 28 MR. : Sounds good. And August of 2019, though, were you a warden at the MCC New York? 29 MR. N'DIAYE: Yes, I was. 30 MR. : Thank you, sir. And are 16 and at least about, like, providing the information that they utilized to this report? 31 MR. N'DIAYE: No. 32 MR. : No. Okay. Fair enough. 33 After the incident occurred, what was your role with determining what happened and what didn't happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019? 34 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, I responded to the institution. At the time, when I got there, he was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, and I've always been trained, if it was a crime scene, if you weren't particularly there, the least amount of people that, you know, that go through that crime scene, just don't go into it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, basically gathering information on what happened, notifying the region, notifying the FBI. The IG. 35 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 36 He's already got that phone call. 37 MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. 38 MR. : Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00064314 1. MR. : Mm-hmm. 2. MR. : -- like, fuck it, I'm going to sell. Oh, okay. 3. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4. MR. : That's why we do it for the next six months. 5. MR. N'DIAYE: So, there was a lot of notification on what happened. Trying to find out the status of inmate Epstein. And things more along those lines. 6. MR. : Now, did you help with gathering information, up until a certain point, and then, were you told not to anymore, or did you continue to gather? 7. MR. N'DIAYE: No, like, my boss was calling me the regional director. They needed information. You know, starting a timeline on what happened. So, I had my executive assistant there, and, you know, we would just gather any information, and just, you know, making sure that, you know, things that were requested were being provided to them, any information. 8. MR. : And who was the regional director at the time? 19. it says, "See below. Just to ensure you know what is being relayed to DO0." Now, is this -- And then, what I have behind it is, these are different timelines that are all updated throughout the day. 1. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 2. MR. : Here is one that was at 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 12th. And then, the final one that we have is the August 13th. So, do these look like the timelines that you would have been gathering information and providing to Mr. ? 3. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. It looks like it. 4. MR. : Now, where were you actually obtaining this information? You said was obtaining it for you? 5. MR. N'DIAYE: He was the exec, we recall, and in that, I'm not too familiar on the specifics on how we get it, because there was so much going on. 6. MR. : Mm-hmm. 7. MR. N'DIAYE: That, you know, I don't recall if it was from the logbooks, or you know, calling around and trying to find out. 20. So, I don't really recall the specifics. 1. MR. : All right. Well, rather than get into each one of these, because it will take too long, I'll just do the very first one. It says, it just says, "7/23/19, at 1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge staff initially." So, that is referring to the first initial attempt Epstein may have had on his life? 2. MR. N'DIAYE: Let me see which one. Are we talking the day of, or ? 3. MR. : No. This is -- 4. MR. N'DIAYE: This is July. 5. MR. : -- yeah, July, 6. (Indiscernible *00:12:40) 27. 7. MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, no. This is July. 8. MR. : Yeah. 9. MR. N'DIAYE: This is the -- 10. MR. : So, this is the -- 11. MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, the -- 12. MR. N'DIAYE: -- timeline. 13. MR. N'DIAYE: -- this would --. We would have probably got this from the SIS investigation. EFTA00064315 EFTA00064316 this information is stuff that you guys were compiling, and you were providing to Mr. MR. N'DIAYE: That would probably be information that we sent up to him. MR. : Okay. Great. And then, this is all the updates that occurred afterwards. Let's see. Why is that highlighted? So, here is something. Do you know why in this one, it would be updated? This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, "7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong place or something, and it says, "Immate released from court." MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *00:16:27). MR. : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 10th. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible *00:16:34). MR. : Yeah. Okay. So, the next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It just shows the next update, you have that under August - or Saturday - August 10th. day. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I didn't come back to work until, when I got called, there was a suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). MR. : Okay. So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to assume that, as this went on, and specifically, the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, would be the most accurate timeline? MR. N'DIAYE: It should be, but I don't want to attest to it. I mean -- MR. : Yeah, yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: -- yeah. MR. : I'm just saying, based is there any reason for you to believe that the timelines that were provided, or in any way, it was determined that, you know, we should add a point that actually didn't occur? Or is it safe to assume that, the last one that was sent would be the most accurate one? MR. N'DIAYE: That's how it typically works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't attest to it -- MR. N'DIAYE: This can't be.. This doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it says, "PIO notified of incident by the warden." I was off that day, on Friday. I wasn't at work. MR. : Yeah. So, that's why I think that they -. So, the next one I'm looking at shows that that point is now under Saturday, August 10th. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I don't know why it would be -- MR. : So -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- under Friday, because I wasn't -- MR. : -- yeah. Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: -- I wasn't working. MR. : So, you were actually off -- MR. N'DIAYE: I was off -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- on Friday. Yes. MR. : All right. You and everyone else. MR. N'DIAYE: Huh? MR. : Everybody was off that EFTA00064317 EFTA00064318 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no further injuries to his person. An attempt was made to get the inmate to stand on his own, with negative results. The inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff was directed to retrieve the stretcher. As inmate Epstein was being placed on the stretcher by responding staff, he would open his eyes and observe staff. When staff made eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit. Was it that? The health care? MR. N'DIAYE: Health. Health Services. MR. : Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the ___ of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him again, he attempted the same act. I laid him down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety. At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won't do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member imitate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer ___, who stated that Immate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, ___, number 78514-054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him. He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘___ What are you doing?’ He did not answer. So he got up, turned on the light, or - so, yeah – “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck. He stated that he then called the guards. and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate ___ stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't responding. He stated that the last time he saw him, he was sneaking really loud. Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the daily news. ___ was on the floor reading the daily news. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that ___ mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on. At that point, inmate ___ paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that ___. These fucking N-I-G-E-R-S. This place is inhumane. I wish I could report it.___ down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety. At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won't do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member imitate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer ___, who stated that Immate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, ___, number 78514-054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him. He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘___ What are you doing?’ He did not answer. So he got up, turned on the light, or - so, yeah – “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck. He stated that he then called the guards. officer, that N-I-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker. He then turned to a page in the daily news that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars. Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn't he respond when we were calling out to him. He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he told if he hurt him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical doctor — "how do you pronounce that name? MR. N'DIAYE: Mr. N'DIAYE: Health. Health Services. MR. : Dressed in a suicide smock, and placed on suicide watch. While awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, inmate Epstein sat on the ___ of the bed and began moving forward, as if was attempting to fall over, head first. When I looked away, he straightened up. As I turned to look at him again, he attempted the same act. I laid him down on the bed, and directed him to cease his action or he would be placed in restraints for his safety. At that moment, he stated, ‘Okay. I won't do it again.’ And gave the thumbs up. Because of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was made to have the staff member imitate Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke with Officer ___, who stated that Immate Epstein was alert and had indicated that his cellmate, ___, number 78514-054, had attempted to kill him, and had been harassing him. He stated that the inmate had indicated that he had informed his attorney of this matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate asleep with his headphones on when he felt something hit his legs, and said, ‘___ What are you doing?’ He did not answer. So he got up, turned on the light, or - so, yeah – “He got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a string around his neck. He stated that he then called the guards. EFTA00064319 EFTA00064320 EFTA00064321 EFTA00064322 EFTA00064323 EFTA00064324 EFTA00064325 EFTA00064326 EFTA00064327 # 69 1 this is? Is this the psychology file of Epstein? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Those are clinical notes. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So, these are all clinical notes -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- here? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Would this have been, 8 like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July 31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it looks like these are clinical notes from the day he got there -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: -- up until July 31st. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: I wonder why. Why would they only send until July 31st? Do you know? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: You said -- 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Not August. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: -- they sent from where? 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, it -- 17 MR. N'DIAYE: From -- 18 MR. N'DIAYE: -- started from the day that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July # 71 1 why that would be? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Hold on. If an inmate is cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them about it - but most inmates didn't, once you are cleared off of suicide watch, they have other things that they do. You can come down and they give you some (Indiscernible *00:54:42) courses to take. So, they have other types of therapy, but it doesn't necessarily have to be entered in as a medical encounter. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So, this is, so, psychology could have been still meeting with them, just not noted as a medical encounter? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You - I mean - you see them, and you can just like, if you have patients, you will go, how is everything going? 5 You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a medical encounter. 6 MR. N'DiayE: Okay. So, your involvement with this, being that he came off of psychological observation on July 30th, should psychology had interacted with him more in that type of setting, where they would have # 72 1 been writing clinical notes? Or do you -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: No. I think they -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- or -? 4 MR. N'DIAYE: -- did everything. Because they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive whether he committed, you know, tried to -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Sure. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- attempted to commit suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do it, that's their assessment of it. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. No. I guess what I'm saying is that, I know you're not a psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that they cleared him to go back to the SHU -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- do you think that they should have continued at least checking with him, or no? 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Well, they probably did. I mean, when -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you make your SHU rounds. EFTA00064328 EFTA00064329 EFTA00064330 MR. N'DIAYE: -- being conducted. What is SRA? Do you know? MR. N'DIAYE: It's a seg group. Segregation review. MR. Oh. MR. So, it says -- MR. Yeah. MR. -- it says, "Court sent a form. Suicidal tendencies." MR. No. That must be a psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. If it says SRA, that must be for SHU. MR. Okay. And it says, "On August 1st, 2019, he denied any suicide ally, friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive Jewish against his religion, still denied knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when he was discovered with a string loosely tied around his neck. Said his incident report for self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going back to his normal life." And again, it says that the 2019 was with Dr. , what I just -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. and it just says everyone who is attached to this sent, this was sent to. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. Is this something that they normally do, after someone comes off of psych observation or suicide watch? Do they send this out to everyone? Or was it a special case for this? MR. N'DIAYE: No. It's typical. MR. That's typical? MR. Typical. Because you have to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, everyone know, you know, the person is coming off. And where to house them. Some go back to their units. In his case, he was going back to the Special Housing Unit. MR. Okay. Great. Do you mind just initial and dating that? And that was - is it their job to determine if a cellmate has to be housed with another cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed with another inmate. MR. N'DIAYE: Well, typically, I mean, MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. -- read. And on 8/10/2019, So, I guess they did (Indiscernible *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible *01:02:40). MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You don't have to always. MR. So, yeah, then maybe those weren't required. MR. N'DIAYE: No. MR. Yeah, do you mind, maybe the bottom on this one? MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. That wasn't attached to the email. That was just a separate document? MR. On, that's a separate document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to psychology? All right. And this is the last one to cover what psychology. This was an email that was sent out by a . To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it says, "Immate Epstein is being taken off of psych observation and needs to housed with an appropriate cellmate." it's just - if there's nothing in policy that sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional setting, if somebody has been on you, know, attempted suicide, or attempted to self-mutilation, you usually put them in with someone. MR. Okay. So, were you or your staff involved with the decision to have Epstein removed from suicide watch or psychological observation? MR. N'DIAYE: Psychology makes the determination that the individual is, you know, no longer suicide. This is for any inmate. MR. Sure. MR. N'DIAYE: Is no longer suicide. And there is no reason for him to be on suicide watch. So, they either get released wherever they came from, whether it was the general population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. MR. So, on background on that. So, one of the individuals in psychology department -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. -- who would meet with Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, EFTA00064331 one of the steps down with Dr. , as well as AW MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. And I was informed that that is kind of pretty routine, that that is conducted in coordination with executive staff members. Is that-- MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That is. MR. -- so, that's where I want to make sure that I'm understanding-- MR. N'DIAYE: We do. MR. -- what you are saying, MR. N'DIAYE: But we also do, we have what we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly meeting, and if there are any issues, that's brought up in the meeting. MR. Okay. So, is it solely, though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes from, say, suicide watch to psych observation, and again, psych observation back to a housing unit? Is that their call, or does the executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside of psychology, have an influence on that? MR. N'DIAYE: Psychology are the subject the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're keeping us informed, saying, okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. Now, let's say I come in and interject and say, no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning for putting him on there? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. What medical degree do I have to justify keeping an individual on suicide watch? Because now, it could go the other way. I decide to turn around and do something like that, I would be having a conversation with you about something else. MR. Sure. MR. So. MR. Okay. MR. Yeah. So, is it more to keep you apprise-- MR. N'DIAYE: To keep us apprised-- MR. -- if anything else? MR. You know, and saying, hey, this is the way we're removing an individual, and we move forward. I mean, obviously, we will have questions. You know, matter experts. They are the doctors. They release someone off of suicide watch. I can't - if an individual is on suicide watch - I can't turn around and come in there, and say, take him off. MR. Sure. MR. N'DIAYE: I'm not a trained psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on there. But then, you know, after hours, or if it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, any staff member could put him on there. MR. Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: But as far as taking him off, you have to have a medical reason, as far as them coming off. MR. So, in that interview with that individual, they said the decision was discussed with AW and that individual concurred with that decision. If they didn't concur, though, would that matter to them? MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean, if the AW didn't concur with it? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. I mean, I don't want to use if we had questions. MR. Guys, I want to go for a second. All right? MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. I got to go pee. MR. Do you want us to continue or wait? MR. No, just stay by me. Oh, don't continue. I'll be right back. MR. Absolutely. I'm going to pause this recording then. It is currently 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. This is Special Agent , and I am pausing the recording. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and back on the record). MR. All right. The recorder is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, short break. Mr. N'Diaye, just reminding you that you are under oath. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. All right. Sorry. Address these. MR. N'DIAYE: Oh. MR. All right. So, the last EFTA00064332 that we discussed was that psychology said that Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this is where we talked a little bit about it. It sounded like the decision to have placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made at a higher level than yourself? Mr. N'DIAYE: Yes. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. And who made that decision? Mr. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Listen. I know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually, the two inmates that would kind of figured out there might be a cellmate, we sent those names to the director's office. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: And it was was the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss told me that they had to run up to it in the department. So, I don't know who was spoken to in the department. And it got back, and my boss said that, too, you know, that's a good choice. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: And that's Mr. N'DIAYE, MR. N'DIAYE: I don't -. I didn't - MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: Read. But that's -. We didn't -- MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, so that's not feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So, get a call, and they said hold up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: So. MR. N'DIAYE: And I'm sorry. Who was it that called you to say stay? MR. N'DIAYE: Mr. N'DIAYE: And then, that's when I had to send up the names. I guess he had gotten some from the department. I don't know who he talked to in the department. MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, so, coming out of psych observation, you were looking to send him back to general pop. MR. N'DIAYE: No. MR. N'DIAYE: Or not back to. Into. MR. N'DIAYE: When he first came in, the whole process was -- MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. Great. But it was based upon a list that you provided? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. There were some names. Because I - fast forward - I got a call, and we were gearing towards getting him out to general population. MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, so, you wanted Epstein to actually be in general pop? MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't want -. That's what typically happens. You know -- MR. N'DIAYE: Sure. MR. N'DIAYE: -- you don't want an inmate in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot of high-profile individuals that come in the institution. You know, we do our intelligence gathering, to see, okay, what would be an appropriate unit for them to be in? And we place them. And then, we monitor them. If, you know, and that is how we move them into general population. I get a call saying, hold up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. MR. N'DIAYE: And who called you? MR. N'DIAYE: Did he qualify as a pedophile? MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, I see. MR. N'DIAYE: -- to get him out to general population. MR. N'DIAYE: I gotcha. So, back, you are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, we're talking about -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- that timeframe. MR. N'DIAYE: -- the whole thing, and then, even, you know, coming out of psych observations when he got in, the plan was still to get him into general population. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, we had the attorneys contacting our legal, why can't he be in general population? MR. N'DIAYE: Sure. MR. N'DIAYE: So, and then, that is when I got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't know who he talked to in the department - but it was, like, hold on. MR. N'DIAYE: And on that note, I guess this would be a good time to talk about this. Being that it was ultimately decided that he go into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit, was it discussed at all that he be placed on... EFTA00064333 EFTA00064334 EFTA00064335 EFTA00064336 EFTA00064337 EFTA00064338 EFTA00064339 MR. N'DIAYE: It says, "Court documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- MR. N'DIAYE: '19. MR. N'DIAYE: -- '19. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: And then, also SHU file. So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring to there? MR. N'DIAYE: I guess whatever came through R&D. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: Our Receiving and Discharge. They might have gotten it - They must have gotten information to release him, and that he was being transferred. MR. N'DIAYE: So, would it be at all- I know R&D creates something called, like, a court production list, or - MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: -- would that be what she's talking about, the court production list, or would she be, do you think -- MR. N'DIAYE: So -- or, like, a PP-38, or MR. N'DIAYE: But -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- with him -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- but that's what would have been used by the SHU staff, in order to produce to the R&D. MR. N'DIAYE: No. Not necessarily. What typically happens is, the R&D staff will call up to SHU, and say, hey, I need down. He has court. Or he's being released. So, there wouldn't have been a document sent up. MR. N'DIAYE: So, everyone that we talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this document. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: And the SHU staff, including the OIC, said, yes, we had documentation showing that he was WAB. So then, and they all said it was because it was this court production list that you sent out emails to -. MR. N'DIAYE: Unless it's sent in the early morning. MR. N'DIAYE: And it's not something that's sent electronically. It's something they said that they generate, print out -- something, or whatever -? MR. N'DIAYE: I think, and I'm speculating now, it was probably the court list, and it probably said, we're sending him off to court. And it was a possibility that he might be getting released. MR. N'DIAYE: Because the document that has been alluding me -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: -- is that court production list. Do you know if that was ever obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, the court -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- different housing units. MR. N'DIAYE: -- list. I don't. I don't know what they do with it. MR. N'DIAYE: They just, they all say they -- MR. N'DIAYE: Now -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- destroy it after that time. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, they do, but -- EFTA00064340 EFTA00064341 EFTA00064342 EFTA00064343 EFTA00064344 EFTA00064345 EFTA00064346 EFTA00064347 # 149 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: So, this was what was sent with this. This was sent specifically, just that. It’s not a document. That’s the body. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That was sent. MR. ___: But that is, again, R&D. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: But, which again, R&D – we didn’t cover this – R&D is outside of custody. Correct? MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: But speaking with R&D, they said they would have produced this list, which SHU would have had, as well as ops lieutenant -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. ___: -- the lieutenant’s office, all the housing units, which it listed as WAB. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: Do you know if they are actually looking – like, the lieutenant’s office, people in the lieutenant’s office, or the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant – are # 151 MR. ___: No, no, no. MR. N'DIAYE: -- they tear up. MR. ___: We are being told, by the lieutenants, as well as -- MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: -- by R&D, they all have it, and they all, and it will all – and it would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven’t found that document to show you this is what I’m referring to. But it’s a document they apparently create, which they call the court production list. Are you -- MR. N'DIAYE: The court list. MR. ___: -- yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: I've heard of the court list. MR. ___: But it’s like a -- MR. N'DIAYE: And it -. MR. ___: -- from my understanding, it is an informal document that they are just providing so that, you know, these are the people that we need to produce today. MR. N'DIAYE: For internal, yeah. The internal officer goes around and drops them off at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I they actually look at that list and saying, or that’s just based upon the busyness of their day? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I wouldn’t speculate. I mean, I don’t know. I can’t say what -- MR. ___: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: -- lieutenant is looking at stuff. I mean, it’s, like, the documents. MR. ___: No. I mean, but should have they, I guess is the question? MR. N'DIAYE: As far as what? Emails that are coming through, on who’s leaving? MR. ___: No, no, no. This would be a physical paper that they were provided. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: Internal would go around and provide everybody with this physical paper that they create, and then, they apparently destroy it at the end of the day. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, I don’t know if the, you know, when internal gets the forms to go, they are dropping it off at different units. So, I don’t know if one was passed off to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would – I guess this probably be the only document -- # 152 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court list. MR. ___: Yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: In the morning. MR. ___: Exactly. MR. N'DIAYE: So, yeah, that’s not anything that’s kept on record. MR. ___: Right. So, I guess the question, though, being that they had these court lists, is another one of these checks and balances? Or is that really just for the Special Housing Unit? MR. N'DIAYE: I think they -. You mean as far as the court list, I don't understand your question, but -- MR. ___: Yeah. It’s just getting back to the point of, like, left. We were notified on the 8th. He left on the morning of the 9th. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ___: Epstein was found on the 10th. Didn’t have a cellmate for 24 hours, and we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have happened, and who didn’t do their job? Is really the question. EFTA00064348 EFTA00064349 EFTA00064350 EFTA00064351 EFTA00064352 EFTA00064353 EFTA00064354 EFTA00064355 EFTA00064356 EFTA00064357 EFTA00064358 EFTA00064359 EFTA00064360 EFTA00064361 EFTA00064362 EFTA00064363 EFTA00064364 EFTA00064365 EFTA00064366 EFTA00064367 | 229 | off, it didn't match this cell. | | :--- | :--- | | 1 | MR. N'DIAYE: Right. | | 2 | MR. N'DIAYE: That. | | 3 | MR. N'DIAYE: So, yeah, his assigned cell within the BOP database was not where he was located -- | | 4 | MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. | | 5 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- in person. At least when he was found on August 10th, 2019. | | 6 | MR. N'DIAYE: Right. | | 7 | MR. N'DIAYE: Now, is that something that is - I should shut up, right? | | 8 | MR. N'DIAYE: No, no. I'm good. | | 9 | MR. N'DIAYE: Go ahead. | | 10 | MR. N'DIAYE: Now, is that something that goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility to see where guys are being called? | | 11 | MR. N'DIAYE: No. But I mean -- | | 12 | MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Most of my questions to him isn't that -- | | 13 | MR. N'DIAYE: Right. | | 14 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- it's his responsibility, it's whose responsibility was it? | | 15 | MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. Got it. | | 231 | cord didn't reach the plug. | | :--- | :--- | | 1 | MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. | | 2 | MR. N'DIAYE: So, they had to move him to a different cell. | | 3 | MR. N'DIAYE: Right. | | 4 | MR. N'DIAYE: So, from July 30th to August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, you know, and my thought being is, well, if they are doing their cell searches -- | | 5 | MR. N'DIAYE: Oh, I thought you meant -- | | 6 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- wouldn't --. | | 7 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- the cell didn't match up with -- | | 8 | MR. N'DIAYE: No, no, they -- | | 9 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- (Indiscernible *02:46:52). | | 10 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- they logged him into the cell that he was placed in, coming out of psychological observation. | | 11 | MR. N'DIAYE: Right. | | 12 | MR. N'DIAYE: On the 30th. Then, they physically moved him to a different cell. | | 13 | MR. N'DIAYE: Right. | | 14 | MR. N'DIAYE: On the 30th. Because his | EFTA00064368 EFTA00064369 EFTA00064370 EFTA00064371 EFTA00064372 EFTA00064373 MR. N'DIAYE: Well -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- who is right? MR. N'DIAYE: No. The expectation is, like you hit any unit, you make your rounds within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, make sure everything is, you know, check on the inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if we are talking about the post orders, were they required to? The post, you know, the post orders, I don't believe had the requirement that they have to, you know -- MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: -- physically go in the (Indiscernible *03:01:24). MR. N'DIAYE: So, does that - if I understand you correctly - the expectation was that they conduct a round, just like a SHU staff member, but there is no requirement to do so? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You should be walking around. MR. N'DIAYE: All right. MR. N'DIAYE: To see if everything -. MR. N'DIAYE: But it's not like you MR. N'DIAYE: But if you were still the warden of the MCC, found out that they lieutenants, when they were signing off on doing rounds -- MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: -- and you found out that they were only checking in with the staff members, and they were not actually walking down the ranges, is that something that you would find problematic? MR. N'DIAYE: I would correct it. MR. N'DIAYE: And when you say correct it, what do you mean by that? MR. N'DIAYE: I would tell, you know, get with the captain, and I would tell the captain they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, they need to walk the ranges. MR. N'DIAYE: So, they should be walking the ranges, then? MR. N'DIAYE: Off of the post orders, it's not in there, you know -- MR. N'DIAYE: I know. I -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- any place saying that you have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like any unit you walk on, you want to see what is told them, you gave them a directive, make sure you are doing this. MR. N'DIAYE: No. MR. N'DIAYE: So, there is no -- MR. N'DIAYE: No. MR. N'DIAYE: -- so, if someone wasn't doing it, it's not like something they would be disciplined for? MR. N'DIAYE: See, that's hard. I mean, to say you would discipline. There is a difference between what is written down, and what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I want to see what's going around the unit. I might ask the officer, all right, do we have any problems. The inmates, when you come on, hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are going down the ranges. You know, when you are going down the range, you are seeing something. You get to another range. The inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, it is something you should be doing as part of your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just walking around, to make sure everything is -. going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the word "sound correctional judgement"? You know, just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. I mean, you have some people that go above and beyond. And then, do their job, and you have some people that want to do the bear minimum. But that is something -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: -- from a rounds point of view, I would say you need to make those rounds. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. Let me ask you a question. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: You do the rounds. Does that mean literally walk up and down this, what we, what I would call the cell block? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. You walk around the unit. You know, you are interacting with inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you are walking around. Hey, what's going on? MR. N'DIAYE: So, what you are not familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. EFTA00064374 EFTA00064375 EFTA00064376
1rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right here, showing that they made their rounds. So, at the end of the week, when they send me the round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, my question would be, okay, did they make rounds, or did they forget to make rounds?
7MR. ...: Is this and this the same thing?
9MR. N'DIAYE: For the lieutenants, it would be.
11MR. ...: Just the lieutenants?
13And no one else?
13MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. No one else. This is computer services. The duty officer has to go up there.
16MR. ...: Now, so --
17MR. N'DIAYE: Right there.
18MR. ...: -- this shows that you did two rounds.
20MR. N'DIAYE: Right.
21MR. ...: And you are only required to do one. Correct?
23MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah.
24MR. ...: AW programs.
25MR. N'DIAYE: That, she did it on Friday.
267
1MR. N'DIAYE: The PA's.
2MR. ...: By the end of the day, man, I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated going to prison.
5MR. N'DIAYE: Psychology. You know?
6MR. ...: So, which ones on here that are actually required to conduct rounds?
8MR. N'DIAYE: You have the unit team that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants.
10MR. ...: Well, SIS, it doesn't appear that they did any rounds.
12MR. N'DIAYE: That's -.
13MR. ...: But I'm assuming they certainly should have. Correct?
15MR. N'DIAYE: SIS should have been up there, to go around. So, and again, I would look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody might have been on leave, not on leave.
19MR. ...: And what are - so, when these type of individuals, it looks like more high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are the highest level, what is a warden round look like? Do you all have to walk down the range, or --
25MR. N'DIAYE: So, what I --
MR. : So, the fact that AW operations has nothing in there, is that problematic? MR. N'DIAYE: And here is the other thing could have happened. A lot of times, they make the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial and sign it. MR. : All right. MR. N'DIAYE: So, what I would do is, I would look at it and say, okay, when I got at the end of the week, what happened? How come you didn't make rounds? MR. : So, all of these blank spaces, were these people supposed to be doing rounds in SHU? MR. N'DIAYE: Not everybody is required. They should have been up there, but they are not required. Like, the finance facility -- MR. : The correctional judgement -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- food services. MR. : -- would be they could go up to that. MR. N'DIAYE: But health services has to make rounds. MR. : You're getting it. MR. : -- is that what you do? MR. N'DIAYE: -- what I do is, I walk around and I go to every cell, and I talk to the guy, got any issues, any problems? They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have some that say, hey, I'm up here for an investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. Fine. Some of it I can address right there, some of it I can't. But I would typically walk around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, that is the reason why you are up there. Why am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, you go by it, it says -- MR. : It's because you are a fucking mass murderer, that's why you're up here. MR. N'DIAYE: -- and, like, you know why you are locked up. And then, they would say, well, how come the investigation is taking so long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, if it was an OIG investigation. It would depend. So, you know, I would usually tell them, like, you know, it's an outside agency handling. We are in contact with them. And somebody will come see. EFTA00064377 EFTA00064378 EFTA00064379 EFTA00064380 1. they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't done our count slip, that is an admission of misconduct. 2. MR.: Right. But a false certification, as well. Correct? 3. MR.'N'DIAYE: Yeah. That is falsifying the document. I mean, but they have admitted that to you. But as far as-- 4. MR.: Now, what if you -- 5. MR.'N'DIAYE: -- me .. 6. MR.: -- what if they are saying - they are a newer employer - and they are saying, we are doing it because we watched a 20-year guy do it. That's how I learned. He didn't tell me to do it. But I watched him do it. 7. MR.'N'DIAYE: So -- 8. MR.: So, I did that. 9. MR.'N'DIAYE: -- I would - So, I would say to you, when did that person come in? 10. Because anybody that came in under me, you get the spiel that, hey, he was new, I was an officer. I know what it is to be new. But I always, always tell people, you got to know what's near and dear to you. MR.: But specifically about not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that you tell them? 11. MR.'N'DIAYE: So, what I tell them is, I come in -- 12. MR.: Because it sounds like it is the same thing you tell them every time. 13. MR.'N'DIAYE: -- right. So, what I basically tell them, I said, you got some good people that work in the institution. And then, I had, you got some people with time, that just want to do what they want to do. And I tell them, don't follow them around. I said, you've got one. If you are on probation coming in, you need to be doing your job. I said, if someone comes in, and they're not doing their job, or they're telling you not to do something, you make sure you let your supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you can talk to me. 14. MR.: Okay. 15. MR.'N'DIAYE: You know? So, the expectation was clear. But with any other agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - there are people that come in and they become MR.: And that is why I asked you specifically -- 16. MR.'N'DIAYE: Right. 17. MR.: -- with Tova Noel. Are you confident that you gave her that spiel? 18. MR.'N'DIAYE: Talk to whoever was in her class, and you talk to any, any new class that came through, and they will tell you my spiel. 19. MR.: Okay. 20. MR.'N'DIAYE: Okay? You can go into our annual training, when we have it, talk to people, and they will tell you about my spiel. 21. MR.: Do you say that always at annual training? 22. MR.'N'DIAYE: I cover everything. Because I have -- 23. MR.: Yeah, but do you always say is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't do it just because the 20-year-old guy did that. 24. MR.'N'DIAYE: I do. I tell people about doing their job. The same thing when it comes to use of force. I tell staff all the time. Use enough force necessary to control the situation. followers 1. MR.: Now, we're going to move on. 2. MR.'N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3. MR.: We talked about the phone call. 4. MR.'N'DIAYE: Right. 5. MR.: On August 9th. What is your understanding of what transpired with Epstein being provided a phone call on the night of August 9th, 2019? 6. MR.'N'DIAYE: So, from what I understand, when you come in, you have to be able to do, for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and all that. So, from what I understand afterwards, Epstein was never available for that to be done. Because he went down to the attorney room, and he would come up at night. So, from what I understand, he was given an unmonitored call. 7. MR.: And what do you mean by an "unmonitored call"? 8. MR.'N'DIAYE: An unmonitored call is a call that is not recorded with the inmate phone system. EFTA00064381 EFTA00064382 EFTA00064383 unmonitored call. MR. : The significance of this is that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, they might have found out that he was very depressed, or he was? MR. : Well, there is -. Can you tell us, why it is important for us to know that what immates are talking about on their phone calls? MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, just for the safety and the security of the institution. MR. : Is it true that they could potentially operate their businesses, their illegal businesses, from there? MR. N'DIAYE: You could. MR. : Or they call a hit on someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of different illegal activities, if we are not monitoring those calls - MR. N'DIAYE: Right. That's -- MR. : -- that we wouldn't know-- MR. N'DIAYE: -- why we monitor them. MR. : All right. I have one more story. instance that you wouldn't listen to the conversation? MR. N'DIAYE: On an unmonitored line? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: No. Somebody should be standing there. MR. : All right. And what are your thoughts on this specific matter from what we just, from what I just told you? MR. N'DIAYE: Like I said, if it's problematic, if you said, if it's the way you said it, yeah. MR. : And is it a serious concern and safety violation? MR. N'DIAYE: Well, yeah. I mean, it's a breach. MR. : And why? MR. N'DIAYE: Because we don't know what the conversation was. MR. : Okay. You said -. Okay. You answered that. These are just on this note, there is just a couple of these. There is a phone call. This one says it's from an office. Do you know who that is? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He's the supervisory MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Right. MR. : I'm a young lawyer. And I know it's hard to believe I was ever young. But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - and I go to the interview, and he says, this person is the main rat against, and I said, no, he's not. I said, that person has got no - fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, oh, man, I better make a phone call. MR. : So, is it standard to allow inmates to make personal calls, as had done? MR. N'DIAYE: You do I, sometimes if they come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, you could have a family member that has passed away, and, you know, you allow them to make a call under that circumstance. You know, I have a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, you make a call to another agency. And the inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is such and such. But you stay and you listen to the conversation. MR. : Was there ever an attorney. MR. : So, he is an attorney? Oh, okay. That's the same guy. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. : Supervisory staff attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you check to see if he has toilet paper, and that his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned regarding his complaint of having had two calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, there is no recording of them. His phone account is set up, so we could get a call on the ITS, when 30 days has -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. : -- elapsed." MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. : So, it looks like this was actually discussed, and this again, was on August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It looks like this was the whole, to the whole executive staff -- MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. : -- team. Was this talked EFTA00064384 EFTA00064385 # 301 **gosh, do we have a recording of this thing?** 1. MR.: The second one, too. 2. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 3. MR.: All right. Now, we are going to get into the actual incident. 4. MR.: Oh my God. Now, (Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get into. 5. MR.: We don't have much more. 6. I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -- 7. MR.: Yeah. 8. MR.: -- yeah. What is your understanding of what occurred in Epstein's cell on August 10th, 2019? 8. MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. 8. MR.: You don't know? 8. MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't go up there. 8. MR.: Do you - 8. MR. N'DIAYE: I never saw the cell. 8. MR.: Do you believe if -. Do you know if Epstein took his own life? 8. MR. N'DIAYE: That's what I've been told. 8. MR. N'DIAYE: Is that your understanding of what happened? 8. MR. N'DIAYE: That was what was conveyed # 303 **the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons Health Services Clinical Encounter.** 3. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4. MR.: Did you get to review this one at all? 5. MR. N'DIAYE: No. 6. MR.: It talks about responding to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency. 7. MR. N'DIAYE: I think I might have saw the memorandums, but I don't -. I don't recall seeing this. 8. MR.: All right. So, let me just read this, for the record -- 9. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 10. MR.: -- because it is a very quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress by correctional officers. The inmate was cold with circumferential bruising around the neck and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued." 11. ED placed. No shock advised. CPR to me. # 304 **continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going to read the rest of this. It just talks about continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show any signs of life?" 12. MR.: Yeah. I just didn't know if you had heard -- 13. MR. N'DIAYE: No. When I -- 14. MR.: -- (Indiscernible *03:36:34) 15. MR. N'DIAYE: -- when I got there, he was already out. 16. MR.: Because they said that, you know, he was declared deceased at the hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like, from this person's report -- 17. MR.: Yeah. 18. MR.: -- he was -- 19. MR.: Right. 20. MR.: -- there was no signs of EFTA00064386 ```markdown EFTA00064387 ``` ```markdown MR. N'DIAYE: -- hear, they were still performing life-saving measures on him, even when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming in there. So, when you say to me that we are performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming that he is still alive. MR. Right. Like, there is -- MR. N'DIAYE: so - MR. -- always a chance you could bring him back. MR. That, you know -- MR. Or you are hoping that you are going to resuscitate him. But do you know of any indication of -- MR. That he was successful -- MR. -- signs of life? MR. -- yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: I didn't. Again, I'm going off of, assuming that he was still alive because they were still working on him. MR. Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: So, and if somebody start, now, I've been in situations where the paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on them, and they say, you know what? There is ``` ```markdown nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been declared dead. MR. □□□: Sure. MR. N'DIAYE: But they still -. MR. □□: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: But from what I gather, they were still working on them. MR. □□: When you say nobody dies in prison, you are being facetious? MR. □□: It's just one of those things that -- MR. □□: Yeah. It doesn't -. MR. □□: -- it happens at the -- MR. □□: Yeah. MR. □□: -- at the hospital. MR. □□: Yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. □□: That's where they are declared dead. MR. □□: Yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. □□: Right. Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: And that's not, you know, necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are like, sometimes -- ```
1MR.: It's sort of a joke.
2MR. N'DIAYE:-- yeah.
3MR.: To (Indiscernible *03:40:46).
4MR. N'DIAYE:It's a joke. Because sometimes, the bodies are still there, and --
5MR.: Right.
6MR. N'DIAYE:-- and we know he is deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical examiner --
7MR.: Yeah.
8MR. N'DIAYE:-- declares --
9MR.: At the hospital --
10MR. N'DIAYE:-- (Indiscernible *03:40:57).
11MR.: -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57)
12MR.: Right.
13MR.: The guy's got a big (Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know --
14MR. N'DIAYE:Uh-huh.
15MR.: -- whatever they call them, knives in his chest.
16MR. N'DIAYE:Mm-hmm.
17MR.: You know, you can tell he's not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm saying, (Indiscernible *03:41:04)).
MR. N'DIAYE: Uh-huh. MR. But just, I just want to be clear, because with that statement, without me getting a little more clarification, people are going to read, wait a second, the warden said that he was still, he thought he was still alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. Are you saying that there was a chance for them to bring him back, or based upon the conversation with someone - and my follow would be that, who? - did you believe that he was still alive? MR. My assumption, from when I was called, was they were working on him, and he was - they were being taken to the hospital. MR. Okay. MR. That's -- MR. That was -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- that's the term. MR. -- that -. Wait. You were called at a certain time. MR. Yeah. When the lieutenant called. MR. Okay. Now, the lieutenant says -. EFTA00064388 EFTA00064389 318 MR. N'DIAYE: So, I don't know the specifics and why it listed those three. MR. ****: And you don't know if, like, because these were, who we considered the subjects. MR. N'DIAYE: No. I mean, these two would have been obvious because they were working up there on the midnight shift. But I don't know why got thrown in there. MR. ****: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. ****: Mind just initial and dating that? Okay. And this one is an email from Captain to you, dated Sunday, August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A memorandum, Epstein." MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. ****: And it says that this was dated August 10th, 2019. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. ****: It's from Captain . It says, subject is, “Security expectations involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey.” MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. ****: Are you familiar with he was informed of my expectations regarding the supervision of inmate Epstein, specifically, he was reminded on several occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed with a cellmate." MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. ****: So, is this all, like, the expectations surrounding -- MR. N'DIAYE: The expectations. MR. ****: -- Epstein? MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Mm-hmm. MR. ****: And when he says, “During the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to address management concerns with inmate Epstein,” do you know what he is talking about there? With management concerns. MR. N'DIAYE: The housing of them. And in the Special Housing Unit. MR. ****: Okay. And do you know if, according to this, it looks like he is saying that he did perform an informal training sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in fact, did that, or is it just based upon -- MR. N'DIAYE: Just based upon -- MR. ****: -- what he wrote here? this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? MR. N'DIAYE: I did. MR. : Do you know what the purpose of this was? MR. N'DIAYE: Let me read it again. “(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this could be conducted, I did, I informed staff (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with inmate Epstein, and others were notified. I explained that lieutenants were to conduct (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I could, and they would not (Indiscernible *03:45:15).” Oh, no. I just was asking him when the thing happened, what is the guidance he provided? MR. : So, what did he provide to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant? Because -- MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. : -- at least the last little point on this first page -- MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. : -- so, it says, “In detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant, MR. N'DIAYE: -- on what he sent out. MR. : Okay. So, there is no other information, aside from what he's telling you? MR. N'DIAYE: Right. Yeah. He told me that. MR. : So, this one is - I want to get your take on this matter - so, this is back to , who was relieved at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at least until 9:30, and sent out that email, detailing, you know, what day, and the lieutenant's log, and the daily activity log. So, Captain sent her an email on 8/12/2019, stating, "Lieutenant , I am reminding you to submit your supervisory memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that occurred on 8/10/2019. Please have it complete and ready for submission on 8/13/2019." She responded with no, addressing nothing, just saying, just responded simply, "In your email, you state, quote, 'I am reminding you.' End quote. I haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding the incident involving inmate Epstein or EFTA00064390 1. anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. 2. So, how is it possible for you to be reminding me? Second, I have been properly relieved, prior to the incident involving inmate Epstein." What is your take on that email? 3. Mr. N'DIAYE: First of all, any major incident that takes place in the institution, we have to do what is called a report of incident. 4. MR. N'DIAYE: Sure. 5. MR. N'DIAYE: He is well within the scope of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, where is - And I don't know if he was asking her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident took place. So, technically, you should have been doing the packet. So, he is probably contacting her for that. 6. MR. N'DIAYE: Well, she was relieved at 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the incident happened at 6:30. And again, she aws there at least until 9:30. And she did respond to the SHU afterwards, helping with the feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? 7. MR. N'DIAYE: Yes. MR. N'DIAYE: So, let me ask you this question. I have, I have a medical emergency. A suicide, right? That is an emergency everyone in the institution has to respond to. Why didn't you respond to it? 8. MR. N'DIAYE: So, you think that she maybe came back after? 9. MR. N'DIAYE: It doesn't make sense to say -- 10. MR. N'DIAYE: Well, she never sent out her required logs, though. 11. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, that, but -- 12. MR. N'DIAYE: So, you reviewed her emails. And I would think that she would have sent that out, if she had left, I would think she would have sent that out before she left. Right? As required. 13. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, did you leave and come back? I mean, because if you are saying that you were there, you would have been one of the first responders up to the unit. 14. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, 15. MR. N'DIAYE: For the emergency. 16. MR. N'DIAYE: That's a really good point. MR. N'DIAYE: Yes? MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, she said she responded to the incident: MR. N'DIAYE: She didn't respond to the incident. She responded after the incident, to help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with the inmates. MR. N'DIAYE: So, she - Well - MR. N'DIAYE: So, somebody told her that the fucking guy hung himself, should she have - Right? MR. N'DIAYE: Again, from what I gather, I am under the impression, when the lieutenant relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you know, and I can't speculate on what was there. So, if we - MR. N'DIAYE: She said she stuck around, working on matters that she needed to catch up on. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So -- MR. N'DIAYE: But it sounds like manipulating those numbers on the counts and stuff. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: Right? MR. N'DIAYE: You know? MR. N'DIAYE: I wish we had -- MR. N'DIAYE: -- they're saying it sounds fishy. MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, so, and then, if you -- MR. N'DIAYE: And if she didn't, why? MR. N'DIAYE: -- and if you didn't respond, why didn't you respond? MR. N'DIAYE: If she - Is it a claim at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't technically working? MR. N'DIAYE: If you are in the building, you have to respond. MR. N'DIAYE: Is that right? MR. N'DIAYE: It's an emergency. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, as a lieutenant -- MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: -- I would want to respond, and say -- MR. N'DIAYE: And so, the fact that she EFTA00064391 EFTA00064392 EFTA00064393 EFTA00064394 EFTA00064395 EFTA00064396 EFTA00064397 EFTA00064398 # 353 1. **apprise of where they were on that? On the camera project.** - MR. N'DIAYE: I would acquire about it, like, where we were with it. But we were to the point where we were bringing people in from other institutions. To get it done. - MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. And do you know when the camera system was scheduled to actually be installed, or was it ever scheduled? - MR. N'DIAYE: From - and if I remember right - it was a matter of before you even installed it, you had to run the wiring for it. - MR. N'DIAYE: Right. And that's what - 2. **MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *04:09:13)** - MR. N'DIAYE: -- I think was -- - MR. N'DIAYE: Right. - MR. N'DIAYE: -- what they were saying in March of 2019. - MR. N'DIAYE: But that had -- - MR. N'DIAYE: That - - MR. N'DIAYE: -- been completed. Because you had to TDY people there. And to get it done. 3. **tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did have issues like that before. But it was the age of the cameras. The --** - MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. - MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, we had infrastructure issues. So. - MR. N'DIAYE: Because, yeah, the contech claims that, you know, like, he had been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person, but like, basically, screaming at the top of his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person can, we need to fix these, this is a continual problem. - MR. N'DIAYE: So, here is what it is. We don't have money readily available at an institution to fix it. That money comes from what we call buildings and funds. - MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. - MR. N'DIAYE: Which is funded by Congress. So, you would have to talk somebody in the region about what the regional budget is, but other institutions have issues going on. - MR. N'DIAYE: But being that -- - MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 4. **MR. N'DIAYE: And they never provided you with an update as far as, like, when it would actually be completed?** - MR. N'DIAYE: It was still ongoing. - MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. - MR. N'DIAYE: Now -- - MR. N'DIAYE: (Indiscernible *04:09:27). - MR. N'DIAYE: -- but after I left, they got people in there and completed it. - MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, I think that whole week, they were able to complete the whole thing. Correct? - MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know when. - MR. N'DIAYE: You don't know? - MR. N'DIAYE: You know, because they had people come in from different institutions. - MR. N'DIAYE: Now, is that, did they ever, did the facilities manager, Captain Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the system was, and that it kept on shutting down, and stopping, you know, cameras weren't recording? - MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, we would have incidents where, you know, something would happen, and we tried to go back and find the 5. **MR. N'DIAYE:** -- we have all these cameras already onsite, and they had already done the wiring for you, know, at least six months prior to this -- - MR. N'DIAYE: Well, not all the wiring -- - MR. N'DIAYE: -- they -- - MR. N'DIAYE: -- was done. - MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He just, he didn't say the wiring was done. - MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. - MR. N'DIAYE: No, no, no. I'm just saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a feel for what was the plan here, and who was responsible. - MR. N'DIAYE: Well, the plan was to get the manpower to get it installed, but at the time, we only had one person. Which was ... 6. **MR. N'DIAYE:** Mm-hmm. - MR. N'DIAYE: So, one person can't -- - MR. N'DIAYE: Well, and the TDY staff. - MR. N'DIAYE: -- right, but even the TDY staff came, they did help. You know, but then, we also had other TDY staff that were coming in for, because of our staffing issues. EFTA00064399 1. MR. Mm-hmm. 2. MR. N'DIAYE: But - 3. MR. Well, that's what told us. That the TDY staff that was assigned for him sometimes were getting put on the custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate or not? 4. MR. N'DIAYE: We might have had to do it a time or two because we wanted to staff. 5. MR. Okay. 6. MR. Yeah. Yeah. 7. MR. And whose responsibility were the cameras? To make sure that those things were going to be operational and working properly. 8. MR. Well, it's not a matter of who was responsible. It's like, working on getting it installed. 9. MR. Okay. 10. MR. So, there was no deadline as far as you know, okay, when they had to be up. You know, they just had to be installed. 11. MR. Okay. Because we were told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is that accurate? that that is happening is to physically check the DVR recording to see if there has a light on it, or if you try to attempt rewind, and you are unable to. 12. MR. Mm-hmm. 13. Because everything is still live monitored feed, showing, so you can't tell just by looking at the cameras. 14. It's only when you try to rewind them, that you can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. 15. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. But that, it wasn't just as simple as that. I mean, there were technical aspects of it that you had to check to see if the cameras are working or not. 16. MR. Oh. Absolutely. 17. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. And the captain basically looking to see if, okay, is the screen up? And then, is it recording? But there was some instances where the hard drives weren't working, and you don't know that until you get deep into it, into the system. So, I wouldn't, you know-- 18. MR. That's -- 19. MR. N'DIAYE: -- put that -- 20. MR. -- that's what he just MR. N'DIAYE: No. No. It's not. MR. Yeah. That -- MR. N'DIAYE: It's not. MR. -- that can't be true. Captains don't know how to install it. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He doesn't -- MR. (Indiscernible *04:12:11). MR. No, no, no. Not to install them. But to make sure that they are operational, and get the right people to actually get it done. MR. Well, I -- MR. That can't be right, either. MR. well, I -- MR. Because how the fuck would you know what -- MR. right, I -- MR. well, because -- MR. -- who the right people is. MR. -- because what we were told is that this was constantly happening, whereas the cameras would stop working. And then, nothing would be recorded. MR. N'DIAYE: So -- MR. The only way you find out stated. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. Like, the fact that the only way we would know if the hard drives were not working is by going in -- MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. -- to check the video. And the video, there is no videos that they can pull back. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. That's when they know the hard drives stopped recording. MR. N'DIAYE: Stopped recording. And then, and look at them. But then, this is, you know, there was other technical aspects of it that, you know -- MR. I can't imagine that -- MR. N'DIAYE: yeah -- MR. -- the captain would know. I sure as hell wouldn't. MR. N'DIAYE: right, MR. So, I guess, knowing, though, that this was, like, a recurring problem, and the fact that, well, what we didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the EFTA00064400 EFTA00064401 MR. N'DIAYE: That wasn't discussed. We were trying, you know, doing the best we can with the hand we were dealt. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. And Monday morning quarterbacking that. Should it have been discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras be installed? MR. N'DIAYE: Would -? I don't understand the question. MR. N'DIAYE: Well, being that there is, it seems that there was potentially around two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten South. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: That were recording. MR. N'DIAYE: But that wasn't known -- MR. N'DIAYE: But it was, according to the, you know, according to the facilities, as well as the comtech, they said it was very well known that this continually happened, and that the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard drives because they kept on crapping out and not recording. MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it is an antiquated system. MR. N'DIAYE: Right, right, right. MR. N'DIAYE: So, when you go down, yeah, obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew until after the fact that you, you know, that you had a system that was out for two weeks. You know, I mean, you go to any other, any institution, the cameras go down. MR. N'DIAYE: Sure, sure. MR. N'DIAYE: And when the system breaks, somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as far as getting the new system up, we were working on it. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. You want to follow up with any of that? MR. N'DIAYE: You mentioned no one knew. But the problem was, according to the comtech, the system failed, the motherboard had to be replaced on the 29th -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: -- they had a failure. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: And then, of course, no one checked it until the 8th. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: August 8th. When the AW and the Lieutenant Doctor went in and they tried to -- MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: -- review video. Now, being that they identified the system wasn't working that day -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: -- how soon should it have been fixed? MR. N'DIAYE: What do you mean? When they -- MR. N'DIAYE: On the 8th. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: This is two days before the Epstein was found. If they identified on the 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not working. It's technically not recording. How much of a priority is it to make sure that those cameras are up and running immediately? MR. N'DIAYE: It's a priority. So, what happens is, and we have run into this before, the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily available. So, you have to go somewhere and call for the parts, and depending on where it system. MR. N'DIAYE: Right, right, right. MR. N'DIAYE: So, when you go down, yeah, obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew until after the fact that you, you know, that you had a system that was out for two weeks. You know, I mean, you go to any other, any institution, the cameras go down. MR. N'DIAYE: Sure, sure. MR. N'DIAYE: And when the system breaks, somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as far as getting the new system up, we were working on it. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. You want to follow up with any of that? MR. N'DIAYE: You mentioned no one knew. But the problem was, according to the comtech, the system failed, the motherboard had to be replaced on the 29th -- MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: -- they had a failure. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: And then, of course, no one checked it until the 8th. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. EFTA00064402 1 MR. N'DIAYE: -- we have an emergency keys to get into any area of the institution. So, if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS office -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you got the captain, you know, we got the techs that work in there. We've got their glass is behind - what we call in control center - behind a box. You know, we can get that box open. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: So, he said that the only way to be able to get into it is by broke the glass -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: He can break the glass. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- mm-hmm. It's okay that he would have done that? And then, should have he? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. If you couldn't reach, you could just - Well, he should have gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Do you think it's at all acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these cameras were down, and he didn't actually start working on it, or at least, I guess he was 1 he bring up the issue to? Because my thing is, if you know it's an emergency, and it's a situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out. 2 MR. N'DIAYE: And it is, would that be classified as an emergency? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: If the cameras are down, yeah. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: That is an emergency. So -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: Let's get them back. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- he should have absolutely gotten into that room -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: He should have gotten -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- one way or another? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: In there, and he knows he could have gotten into the room, because you can, we can break - if he said that stuff was sitting in there, whatever room he said it in there, guess what? You can break glass. You can break glass after hours, if you need to, and it's an emergency to get in, into an area. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: So, his claim is that, he has rebuilt these things so many times. And every knew that these cameras needed to be reinstalled, and he had been saying that they working on getting the parts, but then got the parts again on the, some time on the 9th, claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was going to work on it on the 10th, on that Saturday. 7 MR. N'DIAYE: So, the question -- 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and what is your -? 9 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the question I would pose to you is, did he notify anybody that he couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, I need to get into that office to get a part to do it, because if he had told the captain that, the captain would have got that office open for him. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. I agree with you. 11 It's a he says that the MCC was a different -. So, at any other BOP institution, in the country, that would have happened with, his experience taught him that, at the MCC, basically it could wait until tomorrow. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: They wait until tomorrow. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: So, that's his opinion. But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who did 1 needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being looked at as the fall guy. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: You know, it sounds like he could, you know - 15 MR. N'DIAYE: I don't -. This is not an issue of being the fall guy. 16 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 17 MR. N'DIAYE: So, let's take every issue we just talked about. We talked about the camera project that we were working on. 18 MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. N'DIAYE: We were getting the people in there to working. So now, let's talk about the specific issue that you were talking about. 20 He did not notify anybody to get into that room, to get to that part. That part was to fix the current system. It had nothing to do with the new system coming in. This is, he is saying that this was a part that we needed to fix, put in to, deal with the current system. 21 MR. N'DIAYE: Now, what about the fact that Lieutenant is saying both she and the Akwed that the cameras were down on August 8th. They told to fix them. And EFTA00064403 EFTA00064404 EFTA00064405 EFTA00064406 EFTA00064407 1 personally. I just mean -- 2 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no. But -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- you know, you could always get -- 4 MR. N'DIAYE: - I don't -- 5 MR. N'DIAYE: -- the second one under there. 6 MR. N'DIAYE: -- it could have been up to the department, because the information was going up to them. I mean -- 7 MR. N'DIAYE: But I just mean, like, based upon what information was being leaked, do you believe that someone in the BOP - not necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was leaking the information? 8 MR. N'DIAYE: I will put it this way. The Department of Justice might -- 9 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 10 MR. N'DIAYE: because all the information -- 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Because it could be -- 12 MR. N'DIAYE: was -. Yeah. 13 MR. N'DIAYE: -- OIG. FBI. 14 MR. N'DIAYE: Initial. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Anybody. 1 if it's true? 2 MR. N'DIAYE: Don't know. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 4 MR. N'DIAYE: He left this all to his brother. Right? 5 MR. N'DIAYE: I -- 6 MR. N'DIAYE: Is that true? 7 MR. N'DIAYE: -- I can't comment on that kind of stuff. But what actions should have been taken, or you don't know if it was. If it was learned that Epstein's will had been changed just prior to his death, do you believe any specific actions should have been taken? MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know anything. I mean, I can't comment on that. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. So, that's the last of the topics. Now, we have -- (Indiscernible *04:34:38*) refer to it - I don't think we have to refer to anything other than the - where is that? MR. N'DIAYE: The after action? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. Do you have it? And I don't know what we actually need to cite (Indiscernible *04:34:53*) initial them. This is the after action report. Is that - That 1 MR. N'DIAYE: It could have been anybody. So, I don't want to -- MR. N'DIAYE: Gotcha. MR. N'DIAYE: kind of put it -- MR. N'DIAYE: Sure. MR. N'DIAYE: on one person. MR. N'DIAYE: All right. The last actual topic, before we ask a couple about the, a couple about the findings. Epstein's will. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: Do you know anything about Epstein changing his will just prior to his death? MR. N'DIAYE: Mo. MR. N'DIAYE: Had you ever heard that? MR. N'DIAYE: After the fact. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. And when you say after the fact, how did you learn about it after the fact? MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Reading it. Or hearing it on the news. MR. N'DIAYE: Did you ever hear about it in an official capacity? MR. N'DIAYE: No. MR. N'DIAYE: All right. Do you know 1 the BOP created in response. So, just a few quick questions on it. It says, "On August 1st, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented they were notified by correctional systems of a form received from the United States Marshal Service, the previous day, stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies." MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. MR. N'DIAYE: Do you know anything about that, and what transpired? MR. N'DIAYE: Wait. Read that again. MR. N'DIAYE: So, "On August." So, just to refresh your memory of a time, timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of psychological -- MR. N'DIAYE: Psychological observation. MR. N'DIAYE: -- observation. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: And goes to the SHU. "Two days later" so, there's July 31st and August 1st - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented they were notified by correctional systems of a form received from the United States Marshal Service, the previous day." So, I guess on July 30th. EFTA00064408 EFTA00064409 | 1 | MR. N'DIAYE: No. Going to court. | | :--- | :--- | | 2 | MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah, yeah. | | 3 | MR. N'DIAYE: And if anyone is going to court, because you have so much court movement that you can outcount them. And then, when the Marshals say, hey, he’s not going out, then you release him out of -- | | 4 | MR. N'DIAYE: So, this is -- | | 5 | MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. | | 6 | MR. N'DIAYE: And this means, on the E1, he would be listed on the outcount? | | 7 | MR. N'DIAYE: As court. | | 8 | MR. N'DIAYE: As court. | | 9 | MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. | | 10 | MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. | | 11 | MR. N'DIAYE: And that’s what they were actually doing? | | 12 | MR. N'DIAYE: That’s what they were doing. | | 13 | MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. | | 14 | MR. N'DIAYE: They had him on the E1. | | 15 | MR. N'DIAYE: So -- | | 16 | MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. | | 17 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- so, this is no longer -- | | 18 | MR. N'DIAYE: That's what they were doing. | | 19 | MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. | | 20 | MR. N'DIAYE: They had him on the E1. | | 21 | MR. N'DIAYE: So -- | | 22 | MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. | | 23 | MR. N'DIAYE: -- so, this is no longer -- | | 24 | MR. N'DIAYE: That's not -- | | 399 | where that conclusion came from because from what I gather, they couldn’t get - they couldn’t find the -. Because usually -- Mr. N'DIAYE: Well, they found the 292s, but they were just very limited. Mr. N'DIAYE: Right. The 292s usually had to have everything indicated on it. So -- Mr. N'DIAYE: And on that note, we were told the 292, his file, was extremely small, and it should have been larger. Had you heard anything about people removing documents from files? Mr. N'DIAYE: From what I understand, and was told, that there was no file. They couldn’t - They had every other inmates file, but not his. Mr. N'DIAYE: They couldn’t even find it. You didn’t think they could find his file at all? Mr. N'DIAYE: No. That’s what was told to me. Mr. N'DIAYE: And who told you that? Mr. N'DIAYE: I think he heard that after the fact. I don’t know if the regional director told me after they came in and did the MR. N'DIAYE: -- an issue. MR. N'DIAYE: -- an issue. MR. N'DIAYE: All right. The next one, it says, “No notations concerning a requirement for a cellmate were entered into the SHU program, and subsequently available for SHU officers to reference.” Who would have been responsible for noting that in the SHU program? MR. N'DIAYE: So -- MR. N'DIAYE: First of all, what is the SHU program? MR. N'DIAYE: The SHU program is -- MR. N'DIAYE: Is that the 292? MR. N'DIAYE: -- with the 292s. So, I don’t know, from what I understand, and was told after the fact, that they couldn’t find the information on Epstein in the SHU program. So, I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. MR. N'DIAYE: By the way, let the record indicate that he is not sweating under his armpits. A good sign. MR. N'DIAYE: We didn’t. BOP came to these conclusions. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. So, I don’t know | 400 | check, that they couldn’t find it. So, I don’t know. MR. N'DIAYE: That’s after they found out the MR. N'DIAYE: -- MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. N'DIAYE: -- came down and had them (Indiscernible 04:40:44) a certain (Indiscernible 04:40:45) MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: But back to the original question, whether it was or not. MR. N'DIAYE: Right. MR. N'DIAYE: If it, the cellmate requirement was not entered in the SHU program, who should have made sure that it was? MR. N'DIAYE: On the, in the 292? And I don’t know who was doing it. It should have been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it’s all in there. MR. N'DIAYE: So, the SHU lieutenant? MR. N'DIAYE: When they – yea – when they deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain conveyed the information to him, that should have been put on the 292. MR. N'DIAYE: So, either -- EFTA00064410 EFTA00064411 to read the question. If the documents list as being WAB, and if they had the transfer list, why did they say he went to court and did not return? MR. N'DIAYE: I can't answer that. MR. ___: Okay. “7:00 p.m. Epstein was provided a social call by the institutional duty officer.” Does that mean ? MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. He was the duty officer at that time, I believe. MR. ___: And what does the institutional duty officer mean? MR. N'DIAYE: So, what the duty officer is, is after hours, they walk around and, you know, report emergencies, you know -. MR. ___: Is that, like, the highest ranking official there? MR. N'DIAYE: That comes on at night. You know, there with the lieutenants. But they just make sure that if we had any issues, you know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like that. MR. ___: So, they are kind of, like, the, basically the OIC for the extremely concerning. MR. ___: Okay. “On August 9th, 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers, with the likelihood inmate would not be returning, and inmate Epstein would require a cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate upon his return to SHU.” My question to you is, just, how did they know this information? How would they have obtained that information? Do you know? MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Like I said, I don't know who they spoke to during this after action. MR. ___: Were they doing interviews, though? MR. N'DIAYE: I wasn't there. MR. ___: Okay. MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. MR. ___: Were they authorized, though, if OIG and FBI are doing an investigation, is the after action team institution? MR. N'DIAYE: Kind of. I wouldn't say the OIC, but you know, senior staff around. MR. : Okay. "This call was done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely concerning why this call would have been placed, and why it would be done on an unmonitored line. Without further interviews, it is not possible to determine the reason for this call." Just, why does it say, "extremely concerning"? MR. N'DIAYE: I don't know. Both are report -- MR. : But I mean, do you also find it extremely concerning? Would you classify it as extremely concerning? MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, it would be -. I mean, that the choice of words that they use. So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use the word extremely concerning. But I would think, I would -- MR. : It's certainly wrong. MR. N'DIAYE: -- it would be -- MR. : But -. MR. N'DIAYE: -- it was an issue. But authorized to come in and interview people? MR. N'DIAYE: So, I've done after actions. And there is a point where you come to it, where you, if it's an OIG or FBI investigation, that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain people because it might impede an investigation. Like, if you are going to look at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you can't because most of the time, it's been taken. So, I don't know -. MR. : So, possibly from that memo, though, that was created? If they are not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm assuming they are not really supposed to be doing interviews. MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, I don't know who authorized them to come in and do the investigation. I don't know. It was, you know, who set the parameters on it. I can't speak on that. MR. : And is it a normal for them to do something like this, when there is an actual FBI and OIG investigation? MR. N'DIAYE: We do after actions. So, I don't know -. EFTA00064412 EFTA00064413 EFTA00064414 EFTA00064415 EFTA00064416 EFTA00064417 1. MR. N'DIAYE: Now, was there, like, a plan in place to try to get you guys up to proper staffing levels? 2. MR. N'DIAYE: I mean, we were working on hiring. You know, and getting people in. But it's a process. You know? To get somebody hired, it takes between six and eight months. 3. MR. N'DIAYE: And were there a number of people in the pipeline? 4. MR. N'DIAYE: Not really. I mean, we went out and did recruiting, because we were competing with other agencies. 5. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 6. MR. N'DIAYE: You know? Other agencies are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. You know? To get people on. So, it was just a matter of you, know, getting people on board. 7. MR. N'DIAYE: And do you think it could have been handled better by some, in some way, by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 8. MR. N'DIAYE: There’s certain things we don’t control. Staffing. You know, the budget. We don’t.. I don’t.. We don’t control that. I mean, we can turn around and say, I want this, but once the law is passed, 9. MR. N'DIAYE: All right. So, we’re literally less than half of a page left. 10. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 11. MR. N'DIAYE: But this next one is just going to be. I’m going to have you just kind of read it.. 12. MR. N'DIAYE: Okay. 13. MR. N'DIAYE: -- along with me because it’s so long. “He was also an inmate who had risk factors for assault by other inmates, and did require careful selection for appropriate cellmates. Although these issues were noted, well documented, and communicated, a failure still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be placed in the cell alone. Although feasible for an inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with a cellmate, the odds of this occurring are significantly lowered when housed with another inmate." 14. The report continues. “It is apparent various staff at the institution made a point of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned cellmate. The captain personally instructed the lieutenants, individually. A mass email was distributed by psychology, and it is and it said, this is what you are getting, you don’t.. We need to work with what we’ve got. 15. MR. N'DIAYE: No, and I understand that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. 16. But I mean, the MCC, especially you know, covering Epstein in a lie *05:00:18*, and having such high-profile inmates. Was there do you think that there could have been anything done better, though, by the BOP, to make sure that your institution, specifically MCC, was better staffed? 17. MR. N'DIAYE: You could – so, let’s go TDY - we couldn’t really, couldn’t TDY to a point, but then, there are other institutions around the agency that were, you know, the staffing was an issue. So, they can’t send somebody out to help you know. And then it just brought down the finding. I mean, and getting people to clear your background. Not everybody can clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a job for you, but you can pass the guidelines? 18. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 19. MR. N'DIAYE: And a lot of time, do we know. 104. Although many people acknowledge this is an important fact, ultimately, the final responsibility for not or did not ensure the requirement was met, including vital directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and a mass email does not ensure -.” (Indiscernible *05:02:20*) 105. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 106. MR. N'DIAYE: -- including vital directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and a mass email does not ensure those who truly need that information do, in fact, receive it timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was actually placed with a cellmate when removed from psychological - 107. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 108. MR. N'DIAYE: -- observation. After that moment, it is clear there was no additional written directive, or a fail safe system established, to ensure inmate Epstein - 109. MR. N'DIAYE: Mm-hmm. 110. MR. N'DIAYE: -- would have had a cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first and foremost, do you believe, probably the EFTA00064418 EFTA00064419 EFTA00064420 1 had known that, hey, you know what? These names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at the same time, maybe it would be been a different thought process. 2 MR. : : : And was it possible - and maybe you discussed this - was it possible that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have replaced -? Did they have the ability to replace , if they wanted to, or did they have to come up the chain of command, for the chain of command to tell them who the new inmate -? 3 MR. N'DIAYE: They were instructed, hey, let us know when - where he's to have a cellmate at all time - and to notify, let someone know. Because again, due to the individual that he was, you just don't want to throw anybody. 4 MR. : : : Okay. But doesn't that kind of hinder them from taking action? Let's say, at that point on that day, you are not in the institution, Captain : : : was there, I understand. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: There was an acting warden there. You had the executive staff there. 1 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it up. 2 MR. : : : So, basically, you were always available. Someone was always available, that if the proper notification was being made, up the chain of command - 3 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 4 MR. : : : -- a newer inmate could have been assigned. 5 MR. N'DIAYE: That's why I carried it. That's why I had (Indiscernible 05:10:23). 6 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. 7 MR. : : : Okay. And if someone does ask, should the SHU officers have been given the ability? Your answer to that would have been, you have that phone with you, someone should have made that notification. So - 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 9 MR. : : : -- someone in the higher - 10 MR. N'DIAYE: And they - 11 MR. : : : -- of command. 12 MR. N'DIAYE: -- and they would contact 1 Just because the warden is not there doesn't mean the institution doesn't run. That's why you have, you know, people acting on your behalf. You know? That could make -- 2 MR. : : : So, maybe -- 3 MR. N'DIAYE: -- those decisions. 4 MR. : : : -- maybe, what 5 you are trying to try to ask, would somebody, since it sounds like you would have to go over your head to even make that decision, has to go to the regional director level, would the associate warden have the ability to go to the regional director? 6 MR. N'DIAYE: So, let's say that did happen, right? They would have -- 7 MR. : : : Well, it did happen. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: -- no, I'm saying, as far as finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 9 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still working. 10 MR. : : : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. N'DIAYE: Because I got the government phone. And they're going to call me and tell me, hey, this is what we got going on. He 1 me. 2 MR. : : : Okay. 3 MR. N'DIAYE: So, it was not, like, I'm off on paper. Because I am using my leave. But I'm still on duty because you can call me on my phone. 7 MR. : : : Okay. 8 MR. N'DIAYE: Yeah. 9 MR. : : : My last two questions. 10 Based on your conversation, and after this -- 11 MR. : : : Thank God. 12 MR. : : : -- based on your conversations, and this after-action report that we just reviewed those topics, what are the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to die? 13 MR. N'DIAYE: I'm not - I mean, that's - I think - I can't - That's - You know, like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm giving personal opinions. I'm not -- 14 MR. : : : Again, and I'm not asking you to say why he killed himself. 15 MR. N'DIAYE: Right. 16 MR. : : : Or if he could have. 17 What I'm saying is, what are the failures of EFTA00064421 EFTA00064422 EFTA00064423 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of LAMINE N'DIAYE Transcriber EFTA00064424